Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 14549

1 Thursday, 23 January 2003

2 [Closed session]

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20 [Open session]

21 [The witness entered court]

22 JUDGE MUMBA: Good morning. Please make the solemn declaration.

23 WITNESS: LJUBOMIR VUKOVIC

24 [Witness answered through interpreter]

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

Page 14561

1 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

2 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you. Please sit down.

3 Yes, Mr. Lukic.

4 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours.

5 Examined by Mr. Lukic:

6 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Vukovic.

7 A. Good morning.

8 Q. Can we hear each other properly?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Would you please pull up your chair, relax. Could you sit

11 comfortably, please. I told you already before we talked before this

12 appearance of yours, I said that you should speak slowly and into the

13 microphone when you answer questions before the Trial Chamber so that the

14 Trial Chamber could receive a proper interpretation. Also, as I told you,

15 could you please pause a few seconds after my question. You and I

16 understand each other, but it is necessary for the interpretation to be

17 correct and correctly recorded.

18 Sir, could you please tell us your name, slowly.

19 A. Ljubomir Vukovic.

20 Q. Could you tell the Trial Chamber when you were born?

21 A. I was born on the 17th of May, 1933, in the village of Brvnik,

22 municipality of Bosanski Samac.

23 Q. Do your ancestors come from that area?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. What is your ethnic background?

Page 14562

1 A. I'm a Serb.

2 Q. Could you tell us what your family status is? Are you married?

3 Do you have any children?

4 A. I'm married. I have a son and a daughter. I have two

5 granddaughters from my son and one grandson from my daughter.

6 Q. Could you please tell the Trial Chamber: During the war in 1992

7 and 1993, how old were your children? Were they of age?

8 A. My son was born in 1959, and my daughter in 1961. Both of them

9 are married. My daughter was divorced, though, but then --

10 Q. Have you lived in Samac your entire life, or rather, in the

11 territory of the municipality of Samac?

12 A. Until 1965 I lived in the village of Brvnik. I worked in Donja

13 Slatina, later on in Samac. In 1965, I built a house in Bosanski Samac,

14 and since then I have lived in Samac all the time.

15 Q. Could you please just speak a bit slower, if you possibly can.

16 Could you please tell the Trial Chamber what schools you have

17 finished.

18 A. The higher school for work organization in Novi Sad.

19 Q. Could you just tell us briefly what you did during your career,

20 just in a few words.

21 A. At first I worked as a bookkeeper. Then I was director of a

22 cooperative. And then I worked as a commercial clerk at the agricultural

23 combine there, and then I was head of a commercial department at the

24 Agropromet company, until I retired.

25 Q. When did you retire?

Page 14563

1 A. I retired on the 1st of April, 1990.

2 Q. Tell us: Did you do your military service, and if so, where and

3 when?

4 A. I did my military service from 1951 until 1953. When I left the

5 army, I got very sick and I was declared incapable -- permanently

6 incapable of military service. Since 1953. And I have a military

7 disability.

8 Q. Tell me, Mr. Vukovic: Were you ever a member of any political

9 party? When, et cetera?

10 A. At first I was a member of the Communist Party of Yugoslavia and

11 then a member of the League of Communists of Yugoslavia. And I remained

12 one, and then, when the war broke out, I was still a member of the League

13 of Communists of Yugoslavia.

14 Q. At the beginning of the war, I mean when we say "the war," we're

15 talking about 1991, 1992, were you a member of any party then?

16 A. No, not at that time. I mean, except with the League of

17 Communists. But these parties that were established at that time, no, I

18 wasn't a member of any one of them.

19 Q. Are you a member of any party now?

20 A. Yes. A member of the socialist party of Republika Srpska.

21 Q. Could you please tell the Trial Chamber since when you've been a

22 member of that party.

23 A. Since April 1994.

24 Q. So now we are a bit more familiar with your curriculum vitae and

25 now we'll move on to what this Trial Chamber is interested in.

Page 14564

1 You lived in Samac in the 1990s?

2 A. Yes, I did.

3 Q. We are interested in the following here: Could you explain the

4 atmosphere in Samac in a few sentences, in 1991 and the beginning of

5 1992. But I just ask you to speak slowly, Mr. Vukovic.

6 A. Well, in 1991, as a retiree, I didn't have to go to work. I often

7 strolled through town, I went to cafes, played cards, I went to the hotel

8 pretty often. And in the second half of 1991, one could feel at the

9 hotel, on Wednesdays and Saturdays, that is to say the market days in

10 Samac, the restaurant would be full and one could see that people were

11 sitting together according to party affiliations, and then we'd see that

12 those who were in the HDZ wore the chequerboard sign in public. I and a

13 friend of mine, Janko Bogdanovic, every Wednesday and Saturday, went to

14 the hotel, sat there. We knew all these people.

15 Q. Tell us: Could one feel any divisions along ethnic lines, ethnic

16 lines, in all these cafes, prior to 1991?

17 A. Well, in 1990 I didn't notice anything of the kind, and not during

18 the first half of 1991. But already during the second half of that year,

19 when war had already broken out in Vukovar, was already going on in

20 Vukovar, we in Samac could also feel such divisions along party lines. I

21 used to sit all the time together in the company of Croats and Muslims,

22 but no longer then, at that time. But the people who came to Samac from

23 the villages started sitting at separate tables.

24 Q. Just to clarify for the Trial Chamber. You said it was market day

25 on Wednesday and Saturday. Did people from the villages come to Samac on

Page 14565

1 those days?

2 A. Precisely. That is it.

3 Q. Thank you. Tell me: Did you walk around the villages? Did you

4 go to the villages in Samac municipality in those days, and did you notice

5 anything unusual?

6 A. Well, sometime towards the end of 1991 I did go into the various

7 different villages, and while I still worked, my work was associated with

8 these villages, and I knew all the people in the Croat and Serb villages.

9 I actually knew more than 90 per cent of the heads of households in these

10 villages. And I also went to visit my relatives in my native village.

11 Sometime towards the end of 1991, at the exit from Tisina towards

12 Grebnice --

13 THE INTERPRETER: Sorry. The interpreter did not hear the end of

14 the previous sentence.

15 A. So when I returned to Samac --

16 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Lukic, yes. Something is missing.

17 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Just a minute.

18 Q. Please, Mr. Vukovic. You have to speak much, much slower, because

19 the interpreters -- twice as slow as you're speaking because the

20 interpreters can't follow. Please describe for us again what it was that

21 you saw.

22 A. Towards the end of 1991 I went to my native village of Brvnik to

23 visit my family, my wife's and my in-laws. This is the first time when I

24 saw bags with sand on the -- alongside the road, at the entrance to

25 Grebnice and the exit from Grebnice towards Brvnik. When I returned to

Page 14566

1 Samac again, I spoke to Janko Bogdanovic, a friend of mine from Skarici,

2 and I told him about these, and he told me: Ljubo, the people from Hasici

3 have also set up such sandbags towards Hasici, the upper Gornji and Donji

4 Hasici. This was the first time that I saw anything of the kind.

5 Q. Tell me: The village of Grebnice and the village of Hasici, what

6 was the predominant ethnicity of the villages there?

7 A. In Grebnice, 95 per cent or perhaps a bit over that were Croats,

8 and there were also a few households of orthodox -- of the orthodox faith

9 in Grebnice. And in Hasici, I think there were two or three households

10 who were the Djurics, which is to say they were orthodox, and the rest

11 were Croats.

12 Q. Did you hear in that period that in the town of Samac members of

13 certain parties started arming themselves, the Muslims? Did you hear

14 anything about that?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Please slow down.

17 A. Yes, I heard that they were being clandestinely armed, that --

18 that people of Muslim and Croat ethnicity were secretly arming themselves.

19 And people said that weapons were being secretly brought into Bosnia

20 across the River Sava, the bridge, and then they were distributing the

21 weapons to their members. This is what I heard, and I didn't see it.

22 Q. Did you personally see or hear that there were any specially

23 organised Muslim patrols organised on an ethnic principle in town?

24 A. That I did see, and I also did see the auxiliary force of the

25 police. They were armed. While these groups that patrolled in town at

Page 14567

1 night, I did see him -- see them. I met them occasionally. They didn't

2 ask me anything, nor ask me to do anything, because I had spent almost the

3 entire year of 1992 in AS, the cafe of Miroslav Tadic, and I would stay

4 there as long as -- until after midnight. And when I returned home after

5 midnight, I would come across such patrols.

6 [Defence counsel confer]

7 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] We need to clarify something.

8 MR. WEINER: Excuse me, Your Honour. I'm looking for some

9 clarification too. He starts off by describing one group of patrols, then

10 there's a statement about a second group of patrols, and then he says:

11 "They were armed." And then: "These groups patrolled the town." Can we

12 have some clarification of who was armed and who wasn't armed? Or is he

13 saying all groups were armed? Thank you.

14 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Lukic.

15 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

16 Q. Mr. Vukovic, you will have to slow down. We will be having

17 problems with the transcript.

18 A. I understand.

19 Q. Please slow down.

20 MR. LAZAREVIC: [Previous translation continues] ... notice here

21 in the transcript and I believe this also needs some clarification.

22 Here on line -- on page 19, line 2: "I had spent almost the entire year

23 of 1992 in AS," which suggests that he actually lived at the cafe AS,

24 which is not what the witness said, so maybe clarify this.

25 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

Page 14568

1 Q. Please, Mr. Vukovic. I will be asking you questions, so please

2 wait a bit after my question and respond slowly.

3 What patrols did you have in mind when you described that you had

4 seen them when you returned home from the AS cafe?

5 A. Groups of unarmed Muslims patrolled in Samac.

6 Q. Thank you. When was this when you went to AS every day?

7 A. This was in the second half of 1991, and I was there every day in

8 AS.

9 Q. Tell us: From the beginning of 1992 until the April events, did

10 you also go to AS every day?

11 A. Since that day, or rather, night, when the attack, or rather, the

12 war, started, I would be returning home at 7.30 in the evening. I didn't

13 know anything.

14 Q. My question was: Did you frequent the AS cafe regularly until

15 that day?

16 A. Yes, I did.

17 Q. And in the first months of 1992?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. I'd now like to pursue this topic. I would like you to describe

20 for the Trial Chamber the atmosphere in this AS cafe. But prior to that,

21 just one question: How far is it to walk? How much time does it require

22 to walk from AS to your house?

23 A. It is one kilometer and a half. That is the distance between my

24 house and the AS cafe.

25 Q. What building, what important building, is near your house in

Page 14569

1 Samac?

2 A. It is the electric power company. There used to be a dairy there

3 and a municipal building, and after that it was the building of the

4 electric power company.

5 Q. Is there in the vicinity of your house -- is the bridge on the

6 River Sava in the vicinity of your house?

7 A. It is 500 meters from my house, and the harbour is also very near.

8 Q. Thank you. Let's now proceed to talk about the atmosphere in the

9 cafe AS. The end of 1991 and the first months of 1992, tell us, describe

10 for the Trial Chamber what the atmosphere was like there and what happened

11 there.

12 A. In those months, in those days which I used to spend there

13 entertaining myself, playing cards, in the section where the card players

14 sat and in the other section near the door were the pool tables and other

15 people who sat with their drinks and watched the pool players play. So

16 the atmosphere was normal. We didn't feel any changes, we who were

17 spending our time in the cafe except, except sometime around, I believe it

18 was the end of March, or perhaps the beginning of March, I'm not sure.

19 There was some sort of a commotion inside in that first part of the cafe,

20 and we saw this person, this man, getting out a gun, a pistol. So he drew

21 out his pistol and pointed it at a Muslim. And Brko immediately took him

22 by the arm and led him out of the cafe and said: Don't you make any

23 trouble here.

24 Q. Just a minute. Just a minute.

25 Yes. Please continue.

Page 14570

1 A. So on several occasions, I think this happened two or three times,

2 as far as I could notice, they came in groups, Alija Fitozovic, Omer

3 Nalic, and Izet Izetbegovic, and a fourth person, a man was sitting with

4 them. I don't know who he was. This was by the door where the entrance

5 to this other room was. They were sitting there. They had had quite a

6 lot to drink. And Alija started insulting someone, and I heard Omer -- I

7 don't know whom, Omer Nalic warning him very, very seriously, telling

8 him: Look, don't pick on these people. They are sitting here. They are

9 relaxing. That is what I have come here to do, to relax. And don't do

10 that.

11 So we had incidents of this kind two or three times. He would get

12 drunk and then he could not control himself.

13 Q. Please pause. Tell me of what ethnicity is Omer Nalic?

14 A. Omer Nalic is a Muslim. He was the technical director in the

15 electric power company.

16 Q. Tell me about Mr. Izetbegovic. Did he hold any political office,

17 any political function at that time?

18 A. I don't know about any political offices, but he was the

19 vice-president of the Executive Board.

20 Q. Did Omer Nalic often drop in the AS cafe?

21 A. Not frequently. The other two did much more frequently. Omer

22 Nalic liked to play cards, and Izet and this other guy, they didn't play

23 cards. I never saw them playing cards.

24 MR. LAZAREVIC: Your Honours, just a matter of clarification. On

25 page 22, line 11, or line 10, the witness said: "He would get drunk and

Page 14571

1 then he could not control himself." It is not quite obvious who is he

2 referring to. Maybe my colleague can clarify that with the witness.

3 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

4 Q. Who were you referring to?

5 A. Alija Fitozovic. Omer Nalic was warning him to behave properly

6 and not to insult anyone.

7 Q. Mr. Vukovic, I have to complete my question before you start

8 answering it, okay?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Well, we have cleared that up.

11 So you have recounted two anecdotes for the Trial Chamber. Tell

12 us: In that period, did the Muslims -- did Muslims and Croats and Serbs

13 come to the AS cafe as the daily customers, guests of that cafe?

14 A. Throughout the time that I frequented this cafe, there were people

15 playing with us cards, the same people: Musa Seric, a Muslim; Martin

16 Benic, a Croat; Husic Ibrahim, a Muslim. They were with me together with

17 me almost every day. I'm talking about card players.

18 Q. Tell me, Mr. Vukovic: During the war - but please just reply

19 with a yes or no and then we shall elaborate on it later - did you see any

20 people in camouflage uniforms in Samac during the war, people that had

21 come from Serbia, they called them special unit members? Did you see such

22 people during the war in Samac?

23 A. During the war or before the war?

24 Q. During the war.

25 A. Yes.

Page 14572

1 Q. So when you saw them during the war in Samac, did you perhaps

2 recall having ever seen them before the war in the AS cafe?

3 A. No, nor in Samac in general.

4 Q. Tell us: What were the working hours of this cafe? From what

5 time could go and sit there?

6 A. Frankly speaking, I don't know what the actual working hours

7 were. I sometimes would remain there until 3:00 in the morning, after

8 midnight.

9 Q. Is there any facility across the street from that cafe?

10 A. These are the buildings of the former factory of knitted goods,

11 and during the war it was a command.

12 Q. Command of what?

13 A. Military command.

14 Q. Do you know, are you aware that this was the command of the army

15 of the 4th Detachment, that is, before the war?

16 A. No.

17 MR. WEINER: I object.

18 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Weiner.

19 MR. WEINER: Leading question. Some issues, Your Honour, -- a lot

20 of the facts I've hesitated to object on leading questions, but when we

21 start to get to some important facts, they should be non--leading

22 questions.

23 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Contentious issues, yes.

24 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I apologise.

25 Q. Sir, Mr. Vukovic, have you heard of the 4th Detachment?

Page 14573

1 A. Yes, I have. My son was a member of the 4th Detachment.

2 Q. Do you know who the leaders, the senior officers, were of the 4th

3 Detachment?

4 A. At the time of its setting up, I don't know who were its leaders,

5 nor where its headquarters were. Later on I found out who the commander

6 was, later on.

7 Q. Tell us: Who was the commander?

8 A. When I found out, it was Radovan Antic who was commander, and Jovo

9 Savic was assistant commander.

10 Q. Was your son issued any weapons?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Did your son go for some military exercises with that detachment?

13 A. No.

14 Q. Do you know what the ethnic composition was of that detachment?

15 A. As far as I know, as far as my son told me, in the detachment

16 there were Muslims and Croats as well. One of these Muslims is my

17 son-in-law, my daughter's husband.

18 Q. Were they also issued weapons? Do you know anything about that?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. All right. We'll move on to another subject now.

21 Where were you on the 16th of April, 1992? Do you remember?

22 A. I was at AS for the entire afternoon. I came home at 7.30. I

23 found my son at home. I said: Where is Mother? And he said: I've sent

24 Mother off to the village to stay with relatives. I mean, I was sitting

25 at the cafe. I didn't know what was going on. But I did not know what

Page 14574

1 was going on in Samac that afternoon, and he was there and he realised

2 that people were leaving town en masse. And then he said: I sent Mother

3 away. And his wife had left earlier. He had driven her off to stay with

4 her parents with the child. And my mother was already staying with her

5 daughter in the village, so he had also sent his mother away, so I found

6 him at home alone.

7 Q. Do you know whether before the war the citizens of Samac left

8 town, went out of town? Did you notice that? Did you hear about that?

9 A. I heard about that. I also noticed it. It was obvious that

10 during those last days before the war broke out, for the most part women

11 and children were sent away to stay with relatives at villages so that

12 they would not remain in Samac.

13 Q. Were women and children of all ethnic backgrounds leaving Samac?

14 A. As far as I know, yes, but to what extent, I don't know.

15 Q. Now, tell me this: You sat at the AS cafe. Was there anything

16 unusual that afternoon or evening at the AS cafe?

17 A. There was nothing unusual. It was like any one of the previous

18 days that I had spent there. That's the way it was that day too. Nobody

19 was excited at the AS cafe. I think that these people who were together

20 with me didn't know anything, just like I didn't.

21 Q. Do you recall perhaps whether that evening there were any members

22 of other ethnic groups in the AS cafe, or do you simply not remember?

23 A. Yes. It was the same kind of people like every day.

24 Q. Did you hear anything unusual when you came home in the evening?

25 A. When I came home in the evening, it was already dark. Two

Page 14575

1 neighbours came up and they asked me whether I would like to go to a place

2 near my house where a man was selling beer, perhaps 50 meters away from my

3 house. And I said I never went there for beer, and I'm not going there

4 now either. Not much time went by and they came back and said to me:

5 Ljubo, in the street of Dzemala Bjedica, there are 20 men, ethnic Muslims,

6 who are out there with weapons. And I called my son and I said: Son, did

7 you hear what they said? And he said: I do.

8 And soon after that, Vukosav Acimovic came to our place. He's a

9 neighbour. And he said: I'm on my own. Can I stay with the two of you?

10 And we said: No problem what sorry. And the three of us sat there at our

11 house. We sat there until the shooting started. I did not see these

12 armed men. I just heard about it.

13 MR. WEINER: Your Honour --

14 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Weiner.

15 MR. WEINER: I'm looking for some clarification, if he could. He

16 said he didn't see these men and he said they sat at their house. "We sat

17 there until the shooting started." Is he indicating that these people

18 were shooting within 10 or 15 minutes or what is -- could we have some

19 clarification on that, please, the times and what's happening?

20 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Lukic.

21 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

22 Q. When you said that you did not see these men and that you stayed

23 at home until the shooting started, what shooting did you mean? When did

24 the shooting start?

25 A. The shooting started somewhere around 3.00 a.m., at the bridge.

Page 14576

1 That's the shooting I meant. Not this in the evening, because these

2 people were not shooting then.

3 Q. These neighbours, I mean in respect of these Muslims, you said

4 that there were about 20 of them, did they tell you whether they were

5 local people or some people who were unknown to them?

6 A. They were local people. They were people from that street.

7 Q. You said that the shooting started around 3.00 a.m. Did the

8 shooting take place near your house? Did you hear shooting near your

9 house or somewhere far away?

10 A. I said that my house is about 100 to 150 meters away from the

11 port, and the bridge is about 500 meters away, and that's where the

12 shooting started, and we were in an awkward position. A war had broken

13 out all of a sudden, for no good reason whatsoever. We were perplexed.

14 We didn't get any sleep. We did not go out either. We just sat there at

15 home and looked through the window until dawn.

16 Q. What happened at dawn?

17 A. When dawn started breaking -- I mean, there is a house in my

18 neighbourhood that is eight meters away from my house. It's almost the

19 same yard. We heard some noise, somebody said: Open up. We peered

20 through the window and we saw a man dressed in a multicoloured uniform and

21 we saw this man holding a gun like this. And it's right by the house.

22 Another one right behind him, just like that. But this one walked in and

23 he was banging at the door, and there was no one in the house. The third

24 one also came up, and from the other side of the threshold, again he put

25 his rifle up like this. And from our room where we were, we did not show

Page 14577

1 up at all. They went out and they went to this other house across the

2 street. That was a Muslim house, I mean the one where they went, I mean

3 from this yard.

4 And my son said: Daddy, should I call Meho? Perhaps he'll

5 get into trouble. He phoned. Nobody answered the phone. Not long after

6 that, the three of them returned to our yard, and my son went out to meet

7 them and they ordered him to put his hands up. And I walked behind him.

8 And he asked him: Have you got any weapons? And he said: Yes, I do.

9 And then he asked: Are you a member of the detachment? He said: Yes, I

10 am. And then he said: Your identity card. And he gave him his ID. Then

11 he asked me whether I had my personal identity card there, and I showed

12 him my identity card. And he asked: Was anybody else there? And yes,

13 the neighbour Vukosav and then Vukosav --

14 Q. Could you please just slow down?

15 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Weiner.

16 MR. WEINER: Sorry to interrupt again, Your Honour. We have a lot

17 of "he said" and some of them I think is his son and some I think is the

18 person whose speaking to his son. Could he just use names, if he doesn't

19 use the name of a person, could he use when his son speaks, his son's name

20 so at least at some later point when we look at the transcript we can

21 clarify who is speaking to who and who is saying what.

22 JUDGE MUMBA: Very well, Mr. Lukic.

23 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

24 Q. I'm going to put questions to you, and could you please answer

25 those questions so that we would explain everything properly.

Page 14578

1 A man came to your door --

2 A. Not one. Three of them, in camouflage uniforms. And until

3 then --

4 Q. Had you ever seen these three men before?

5 A. No.

6 Q. Did any of these three men address you?

7 A. Not me. They addressed my son.

8 Q. What is the name of your son?

9 A. My son's name is Joco. He's the one that negotiated with them.

10 They had those black caps, those black stockings on their heads.

11 Q. This man in camouflage uniform, what did he say to Joco?

12 A. He said: Until further notice, no one is allowed to leave the

13 yard. We will kill anyone who goes out into the street.

14 Q. This man in camouflage uniform, did he ask Joco whether he had a

15 weapon?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Did he ask Joco whether he was a member of the 4th Detachment?

18 A. Yes, he did.

19 Q. Did he ask Joco and you, and your neighbour, to show your identity

20 cards?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. I think that now we managed to clarify this.

23 Did Joco hand his rifle over to him?

24 A. No. He just said: Did you have any weapons? And he said: Yes.

25 And that was it.

Page 14579

1 Q. Did they go to the neighbouring houses?

2 A. Yes, they did. Yes, they did, from one house to another, all in

3 succession.

4 Q. Among your neighbours, were there any members of other ethnic

5 groups?

6 A. Right next to my house was the house of an ethnic Croat.

7 Q. Was this man a member of the 4th Detachment?

8 A. No.

9 Q. Did they ask him whether he had any weapons?

10 A. I don't know about that.

11 Q. Do you know whether Croats and Muslims who were members of the 4th

12 Detachment, who you know were members of the 4th Detachment, were they

13 asked to -- whether they had any weapons or to give them?

14 A. They did not ask my son-in-law, and also they came to a Croat who

15 was from the 4th Detachment before they came to my house. But no, they

16 did not ask him for any weapons either.

17 Q. During that day, did you leave the house?

18 A. We went out into the yard. We did not go out of the yard.

19 Q. Was there any shooting during the day?

20 A. All day, all day, incessantly. There was shooting at the bridge

21 and over there in town. But at that time we could not know in town what

22 was going on and where the shooting was taking place, but practically we

23 were surrounded, as far as shooting is concerned.

24 Q. On that day, I mean the 17th of April, did you see or hear that an

25 armoured vehicle had come into town?

Page 14580

1 A. I heard, sometime in the afternoon, I heard sometime in the

2 afternoon that a Praga had come to the port. Until then, I didn't even

3 know what a Praga was, nor had I ever seen one.

4 Q. What happened? Tell us: What's the name of that part of town

5 that you live in?

6 A. That part of town is called the first quarter. But people call it

7 Mahala.

8 Q. What happened on the next day, on the 18th of April? Do you

9 remember?

10 A. On the 18th of April, we were at our house too. We could not go

11 out anywhere. I sought the command, or rather, my son asked what would

12 happen to him. He was not the only member of the 4th Detachment who was

13 armed there. There were also some seven or eight other young men. And

14 they could not get out. And they said: Just wait until further notice,

15 don't go anywhere.

16 Q. During that day, did somebody come again to conduct a search or to

17 look for weapons?

18 A. Not that day, but the following day, on Saturday.

19 Q. That's the day I meant, the 18th of April. Is that right? That

20 was that Saturday?

21 A. Yes, Saturday.

22 Q. Could you give us a brief description?

23 A. Sometime around 12:00, during the day, two men, also in camouflage

24 uniform, walked into my yard, and they asked me: Did somebody come to see

25 you here yesterday morning? And I said: Yes. All right. Are there any

Page 14581

1 Muslim houses here? Yes, there are, I said. And then: Where is the head

2 of household? At Mico Sljokic's place, that's where he's sitting. Come

3 with us. Only the men should go out. And then I was walking in front and

4 the three of them got out. Meho, Mico, and Vaso Simic. And then they

5 asked: Do you have any weapons? No. They didn't say anything else to

6 them. Then we went to the gate and they said to me: We are going now.

7 We are going around with a megaphone, around all the streets. And we are

8 asking for those people who have weapons and who had not handed them in

9 yet, do that, and nothing will happen to them. And then they started

10 telling me about the Bicic brothers. I mean, this is what he said to

11 me --

12 Q. Slow down, please. Just wait a second. I'm going to be putting

13 questions to you.

14 Who is the man who was telling you that?

15 A. This man in camouflage uniform, I don't know. He was a Serbian.

16 He was not from our area.

17 Q. What did he say to you?

18 A. He told me: You don't know what you had in Samac. We were like

19 brothers. Sorry. We went to the Bicic brothers, and I can tell you what

20 we found in their house. So in this other inn, we found five

21 machine-guns, ten rifles, three radio stations, sets, and bombs, grenades,

22 and ammunition. So I told him, as far as I know, here in my house, nobody

23 has -- nobody had any weapons, to the best of my knowledge. And indeed,

24 there was nothing. And they didn't find anything.

25 Q. Just to add: You said that this man in a camouflage uniform told

Page 14582

1 you that they had found so much weapons in the brothers Bicic house that

2 couldn't be put in three vehicles.

3 A. Three passenger vehicles.

4 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Page 33, line 19. The witness said

5 "around my house," not "in my house."

6 Q. You said these houses -- these neighbours who were living around

7 your house. That's what you said?

8 A. Yes.

9 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Excuse me. Mr. Vukovic, in his answer concerning

10 these weapons and the Bicic brothers, he mentioned -- here we are. On

11 line 17, that this man in the uniform, camouflage uniform, says that they

12 had found certain things in the Bicic brothers' house. Then it goes on,

13 the answer, and says: "So in this other inn." Now, we know, of course,

14 they owned a pizza place. Where were the weapons found? In their

15 accommodation, in their house, or in the pizza place, the inn, the cafe,

16 whatever we like to call it?

17 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] The witness said, and this is not

18 properly recorded in the transcript: "And also the innkeeper in the

19 place of the innkeeper." That's what the witness said. He meant a third

20 person, not the Bicic brothers.

21 MR. PANTELIC: Correction. Just a suggestion to correct the

22 transcript. Page 33, line 17 and 18. In B/C/S language, witness

23 testified that the other person told him that at the Bicic brothers they

24 found five machine-guns. This is in transcript. Which is wrong. The

25 witness said five heavy machine-guns and ten automatic rifles, which is

Page 14583

1 very big difference in relation to what we have in the transcript.

2 MR. WEINER: I'd object.

3 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Weiner.

4 MR. WEINER: Sorry. The mike wasn't working. I think we should

5 ask the witness and not have the attorneys testify. We have this witness

6 saying first that they found something at the Bicic brothers, then in

7 another inn they found something. Now, counsel, Mr. Lukic, just said, at

8 line 34, line 14: "And also the innkeeper in the place of the innkeeper."

9 That's what the witness said. He meant a third person, not the Bicic

10 brothers." Now counsel for Mr. Blagoje Simic is now mentioning that

11 those items were found again at the Bicic brothers' house. That's not

12 what the witness has said. Could we have the witness testify as to where

13 these things -- or what information he received?

14 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Lukic. Get the witness to clarify.

15 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I think if we heard the tapes, we

16 could establish what it was that the witness actually said. I didn't want

17 to create any confusion.

18 Q. Mr. Vukovic, you can see how we are having problems because the

19 translators are really doing their best to do their work and follow what

20 you are saying, but please slow down, because this is in our mutual

21 interest. And please bear this in mind at all times.

22 So tell us, please, slowly, what it was that you heard from this

23 person, from this man. We have ample time.

24 A. This man told me: You don't know what you had in Samac. Let me

25 just tell you that in the place of the Bicic brothers, in their house, we

Page 14584

1 found so much weapons that this could not be placed in three passenger

2 vehicles. And in another place, Rajec's place, who keeps an inn next to

3 the green market, there we found five heavy machine-guns and five rifles,

4 grenades, mines, and ammunition.

5 Q. I believe that that clears that up. You said five heavy

6 machine-guns and ten automatic rifles.

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. What did you do that day after that? What happened then?

9 A. Then they left. I remained there. I returned to my yard,

10 together with my son and the neighbour Vukosav and Vaso Simic, another

11 neighbour of ours also came and he came there and stayed there and spent

12 the night there with us in my house.

13 Q. Did you take any decisions in the days that followed? What did

14 you do?

15 A. We kept looking for ways to get out. My sister has a flat, owns a

16 flat in downtown, in the centre of town, but we couldn't reach that area.

17 And there was no fighting. The war wasn't going on in the centre of

18 town. And we were not allowed even to go out. It was only on Saturday

19 evening that I and my son got out. I went to the flat and he went to this

20 friend of his in Skarici. And on Sunday I went to Trivo Lukic's place,

21 and his house is not far from my sister's flat. That was on Sunday. And

22 on Sunday and the next three or four days I remained in Trivo Lukic's

23 house. And my son returned only on Monday morning and reported to his

24 unit.

25 Q. During those days while you were at Trivo Lukic's place, his

Page 14585

1 house, did you hear of any order having been issued in connection -- to

2 the effect of any special conduct in terms of the life regime in the town?

3 A. No.

4 Q. Did you receive any kind of information? What was it that you

5 heard? Did you actually leave his house at all?

6 A. The two of us, I and he, never left the house at all. His son

7 drove around, bread and milk around the streets of Samac all day Sunday.

8 And when he returned home -- but that day there was so much shooting over

9 the Bosna and the railway tracks from the Slavonian side to the Samac side

10 that one did not dare go out.

11 Q. And what did he tell you? I mean the son of Trivo Lukic. What

12 was it that he told you about the atmosphere in the city?

13 A. When he arrived, he told us that the situation was horrendous. He

14 told -- no one actually dared move around Samac, because there was very

15 heavy fighting going on. The tanks that had come there were placed near

16 the Bosna, where the municipal court building is, and from there they

17 opened fire. And from Prud they opened fire on Samac, so that one could

18 not move about. And he just told us that the situation in Samac was

19 terrible and he didn't say anything else when he came to the house in the

20 evening.

21 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I believe it is time for

22 our break.

23 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. We'll take our break and continue our

24 proceedings at 1100 hours.

25 --- Recess taken at 10.30 a.m.

Page 14586

1 --- On resuming at 11.01 a.m.

2 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Lukic, you continue.

3 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

4 Q. Mr. Vukovic, how many days, if you can recall, were you in the

5 house of Trivo Lukic?

6 A. I think that it was from Sunday morning until Thursday evening.

7 Q. Where did you go from there?

8 A. I went to my sister's flat, and then I also went to see my house.

9 Q. And where did you spend the nights and the days that followed?

10 A. I slept in my sister's flat, because she wasn't there and the flat

11 was empty.

12 Q. Was it safer for you to spend the nights there, relative to your

13 own flat?

14 A. That was the safest residential building in the town of Samac at

15 that time.

16 Q. Mr. Vukovic, were you a member of the civil defence staff in

17 Samac?

18 A. Yes, I was.

19 Q. Will you tell the Trial Chamber how you became a member of the

20 staff? Who called you to the staff? When was this, relative to the 17th

21 of April?

22 A. This was the beginning of May. Trivo Lukic called me by phone and

23 he told me to come to the premises of the local community, that I had been

24 appointed a member of the civil defence staff.

25 Q. And did you go there?

Page 14587

1 A. Yes, I did.

2 Q. Whom did you find there? Do you remember?

3 A. I found Miroslav Tadic, Trivo Lukic, Aco Popovic, Mato Antunovic,

4 Sveto [phoen] Ramusovic, Safet Hadzialijagic there.

5 Q. Please slow down. I'm very interested in this staff, so I'll ask

6 you about each of these individuals. I will ask you right away: Did you

7 find out who the commander of the civil defence staff was?

8 A. Yes, I did.

9 Q. Who?

10 A. Miroslav Tadic.

11 Q. You also mentioned Trivo Lukic, the man in whose place you had

12 spent some time; is that not right? Will you tell us approximately how

13 old he is, if you know?

14 A. Trivo Lukic was born in 1934.

15 Q. Of what ethnicity is he?

16 A. Of Serb ethnicity.

17 Q. You also mentioned Mato Antunovic, did you not?

18 A. Yes, I did.

19 Q. When was he born, and of what ethnicity is he? Approximately the

20 year.

21 A. I don't know the exact year in which Mato was born. He is much

22 younger than me and he is a Croat.

23 Q. The next person who you mentioned was Safet Hadzialijagic, known

24 by the nickname of Pop. What is he by ethnicity?

25 A. A Muslim.

Page 14588

1 Q. Do you maybe know whether he held any position in Samac prior to

2 the war?

3 A. He was the hotel manager, the hotel director, but I don't know in

4 which time period exactly.

5 Q. You also mentioned Ismet Ramusovic, didn't you?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. What is he by ethnicity?

8 A. He's a Muslim.

9 Q. You also mentioned Aleksandar Popovic, didn't you?

10 A. Yes, I did.

11 Q. What is he by ethnicity?

12 A. He's a Serb.

13 Q. Can you tell us in what year he was born, approximately?

14 A. He was born in 1934.

15 Q. Do you know Zeljko Volasevic?

16 A. Yes, I do.

17 Q. What is he by ethnicity?

18 A. He's a Serb.

19 Q. Did you find him there in the civil defence staff?

20 A. Yes, I did.

21 Q. Do you perhaps know what Zeljko Volasevic did before the war?

22 A. Zeljko was a secretary of the local community.

23 Q. And where were the premises of the staff to which you have come?

24 A. These were the premises which were being used which had been used

25 by the local community, administration, prior to the war.

Page 14589

1 Q. Tell us: What was the popular name of the building in which the

2 local community offices were in Samac? How did you call that building?

3 A. The pensioners' building.

4 Q. Why?

5 A. Because below these local community offices which were on the

6 first floor was a room which was used solely by pensioners and is still

7 being used by them today.

8 Q. Did Mato Antunovic and Safet Hadzialijagic, called Pop, leave

9 Samac shortly thereafter?

10 A. They left sometime in mid-May or the latter half of May. I don't

11 remember the date. They both left. I know that Mato went to Belgrade,

12 because his son was at the military academy there. And where Safet had

13 gone, I don't know.

14 Q. Do you know that Volasevic Zeljko also left the staff and Samac?

15 A. Zeljko Volasevic left much later, perhaps two or three months

16 after they had departed. Zeljko then also left.

17 Q. Tell me: During those days, did you hear any stories from your

18 friend in Skarici related to the neighbouring villages?

19 A. I did. He phoned me one evening and he said to me: Could you

20 come over to see me for a while? And I said to him: I will. Janko was

21 his name. My wife and I went, and he said to me: Ljubo, these neighbours

22 of mine from Hasici are going to Domaljevac en masse. And he said to me:

23 That's why I called you. I don't know what this is, but they are going to

24 Domaljevac en masse.

25 Q. Can you tell us approximately when this was, relative to the 17th

Page 14590

1 of April?

2 A. Well, perhaps the last days of April or the first days of May.

3 I'm not quite sure as to the date, but it was those days, around those

4 days, approximately.

5 Q. Tell us: In the village of Hasici, did one ethnic group dominate

6 among the population there? What was the population of Hasici? What was

7 the predominant ethnicity there?

8 A. I already said that in the village of Hasici there were four

9 houses in which Serbs lived and their last name was Djuric, and all the

10 rest were Croats.

11 Q. Thank you. When you came to the civil defence staff, did you see

12 whether there were some other services there on that floor, in that

13 building, once you came there?

14 A. When I came there, I found the people who worked for the Red Cross

15 there as well. The premises right next door to ours were used by them.

16 And right next to them was the room that was used by the social welfare

17 centre. Those are the services that I found there then, and they remained

18 there with us all the time, and we worked together.

19 Q. Your civilian protection staff, how many offices did it have

20 there?

21 A. We practically had one office, but we did use the office of

22 secretary Zeljko Volasevic as well. So practically we had these two

23 offices that we used.

24 Q. Do you know whether, on the ground floor of that building, there

25 was another service too?

Page 14591

1 A. Next to the premises of the pensioners' rooms are three other

2 rooms. That is where the association of local fishermen was and of the

3 local hunter society, and also the office of the veterans' association.

4 Those three offices accommodated the service that was in charge of sending

5 people out for work obligation. So they gathered there every day and they

6 were sent out to work, to carry out their work obligation wherever they

7 were supposed to go. But anyway, that's where they got their assignments.

8 I don't know exactly where they went.

9 Q. Could the witness please be shown photographs D36 and D37/3.

10 Could you please say whether that's the building that you've been

11 talking about, the one that is called the pensioners' building.

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Could photograph D37 be placed on the ELMO now as well, please.

14 Is this that same building?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Can you recognise that which is marked here with the red circle?

17 What is it and what was it used for?

18 A. The red circle goes around the mast where flags are put.

19 Q. Just a moment, please. Do you remember whether there was a flag

20 there during the course of the war?

21 A. Throughout, while the Red Cross building was -- while the Red

22 Cross was in this building, the Red Cross flag was placed there.

23 Q. Did you ever see an inscription at the entrance into this

24 building, something that was of a discriminatory nature?

25 A. No, never.

Page 14592

1 Q. I don't want to lead, but I do have to put a question that stems

2 from the Prosecution case. Did you ever see an inscription on that

3 building stating that dogs, Muslims, and Croats were not allowed to enter

4 that building?

5 A. I went down there often to this group of people who were giving

6 people work obligation assignments. I came to that building when I went

7 to do my own work, and I never saw any such thing.

8 Q. Thank you. Now we're going to move on to the activities of your

9 staff of civilian protection.

10 Tell me: What were the first things that you did during those

11 first few days when you joined up? Just tell me what that was.

12 A. When we gathered there, all of us, Miroslav Tadic then said to us

13 what the tasks of the civilian protection staff were, and we made a plan

14 as to how we should start. Our first job was to record goods at the

15 facilities that belonged to companies whose seats were outside Bosanski

16 Samac and also to make a list of goods in the shops that were privately

17 owned.

18 Q. Just a moment, please. Were these shops abandoned or were the

19 owners of these privately owned shops still there in Samac?

20 A. That's precisely what I wanted to say, that Miroslav drew our

21 attention to the fact that we should first go to those places for which it

22 was known that the owners were no longer there, and also where perishable

23 goods were.

24 Q. What are these perishable goods?

25 A. All food products have an expiry date, and once the expiry date

Page 14593

1 expires, then this can be very serious for the citizenry. There can be

2 food poisoning.

3 Q. Was there a problem with agricultural pharmacies?

4 A. Agricultural pharmacies are a completely different thing. In

5 addition to the seeds and fertilisers they sold, they also sold plant

6 protection agents, so-called poisons. And Miroslav Tadic drew our

7 attention to that fact, that the goods from those premises urgently had to

8 be put into the warehouses of the agricultural combine. Perhaps a grenade

9 could hit those shops and then the poison can affect all the citizens who

10 happen to pass by there.

11 Q. Just a moment. Was there also a danger of these shops being

12 broken into, looted? Did you know anything about that?

13 A. Well, that is precisely what Miroslav Tadic drew our attention to

14 as well, because there was no one who took care about these facilities,

15 these shops, and therefore goods had to be taken out of them as soon as

16 possible and handed over to the warehouses of Velepromet, Velsanka, and

17 the agricultural combine.

18 Q. Tell me: How were these goods taken away? Was an inventory made

19 or was everything taken away spontaneously? Did you know exactly what was

20 taken where, et cetera?

21 A. As soon as this agreement was reached, upon Tadic's suggestion, we

22 called a few persons, capable persons, who knew how to make inventories in

23 stores. Pero Tovirac was one of them. For over 20 years, he was

24 director of the Bosanka trading company at that time. He was a retired

25 person as well. Then Cviko Tesic, also a salesperson, a retiree. We

Page 14594

1 called him too. And Stevo Bozic. He was a worker at Mebos. But we

2 called him in as a third member. So at that time, that was the first

3 commission that started making the inventories of these goods, and they

4 stayed there and they were the ones who made the largest number of

5 inventories of goods.

6 However, at these agricultural pharmacies, we engaged other

7 persons, for the most part professionals. One of them is Djeto Dziskovic

8 [phoen] who was an engineer of agriculture, then Vukosav Acimovic --

9 Q. All right. We don't need those details. Tell me: Where were

10 those goods taken?

11 A. When the inventory was made, then the members of the commission

12 came to us and said: We have finished the inventory. Now what? Then we

13 had two trucks that had been made available to us, that had been assigned

14 to us, precisely for the transport of these goods. Then we would go

15 downstairs and we would ask that Kapetanovic, called Beg, to give us a few

16 workers who would load the goods from these shops onto the trucks and then

17 unload these goods at the warehouses of Velepromet and Bosanka. With

18 these inventories, or rather, Pero Tovirac, the leader of the group, he

19 carried the inventories, the lists, and he accompanied these goods. And

20 then the warehouse clerk would sign the list, stating in this way that he

21 had taken over the goods and then he would keep one copy and the other one

22 would be taken to the municipality, to Ljubo Milic.

23 Q. How many days did it take to finish that job?

24 A. I could not tell you exactly how many days, but perhaps it was

25 between 10 and 12 days, because there were quite a few shops for which we

Page 14595

1 had to --

2 Q. I beg your pardon. In your opinion, how many shops were involved

3 in this making of inventories?

4 A. I don't know the exact number of these shops that sold industrial

5 goods, but we had three agricultural pharmacies that were well stocked

6 indeed. And the owner was Agrokop Novi Sad, Seme from Belgrade, and Zmaj

7 from Zemun.

8 Q. Tell me: These three pharmacies that you mentioned, from which

9 entity or from which republic do the owners come from?

10 A. I've said just now that the owner of one of the pharmacies was

11 Agrokop from Novi Sad.

12 Q. Where is Novi Sad?

13 A. Novi Sad is in Vojvodina, the Republic of Serbia.

14 Q. Thank you. Further on --

15 A. Let me just say another thing, that it was in a private home of

16 some man called Ravo. All right. Then Seme from Belgrade, its seat is in

17 Belgrade, in Serbia. Then Zmaj from Zemun. That's a factory that

18 manufactures agricultural machinery. It is in Zemun, but they had a

19 pharmacy, an agricultural pharmacy in Samac.

20 Q. All right. You said three pharmacies. Can you tell us

21 approximately how many shops were included during those ten days or so,

22 just to give an approximation to the Trial Chamber. We don't have to go

23 into details.

24 A. Well, approximately, I would say, 15 or 16 shops, approximately.

25 Q. The civilian protection staff, after that, did it ever make any

Page 14596

1 inventories of any shops anywhere?

2 A. When we finished this job with these shops, we didn't do any such

3 thing anymore, because it wasn't necessary. These other shops were

4 actually run by the companies that had their seats in Samac, so they could

5 take care of it themselves. It is not that we from the civilian

6 protection staff would have to interfere in this in any way.

7 Q. After the inventory of these shop -- I'm now going to ask you

8 about all of this in chronological order, but I'm going to deal with

9 individual topics because there are quite a few of them, but I think that

10 this also pertains to this first period of the war. Correct me if I'm

11 wrong. Was there a problem that involved shelters in the town of Samac?

12 A. Of course it did. Of course there was a problem, because there

13 was shelling, there were combat operations, and Samac was unprepared as

14 far as shelters were concerned. There was one single building, the

15 one that I said was the safest one in Samac. That is where there were

16 over 280 persons in the basement. In order to make it possible for people

17 to seek shelter from shells as soon as possible, Tadic gave an assignment

18 to all of us, all members of the civilian protection staff, to tour the

19 entire town of Samac and to see what can be done and to equip the shelters

20 as much as possible so that people could come as soon as possible to seek

21 shelter from shells. We toured all of this, we saw it, we returned. We

22 wrote signs saying "shelter." And we put the distance on the signs,

23 stating how far away the nearest shelter was. Until the present day,

24 there are such signs in Samac stating how far away shelters are.

25 Q. You mentioned that the only, so to say, real shelter was the one

Page 14597

1 that you described. Let me ask you one question: Are you aware of the

2 fact that that shelter and life in it was organised by Mr. Marko

3 Kuresevic?

4 A. Yes, precisely. It was Marko Kuresevic who organised it and set

5 up the records of people who had sought shelter there. He also put the

6 orderlies on the doors, and no one could enter into the building. Can

7 you imagine someone coming there and throwing a bomb there?

8 Q. Tell me, just for the sake of the Trial Chamber's finding out:

9 Where is this building relative to the pensioners' club, to the

10 pensioners' building?

11 A. This building is some 10 meters away from the pensioners' centre,

12 and I forgot to say that Marko Kuresevic immediately went to Miroslav

13 Tadic to tell him what he had done and what organizational measures he had

14 undertaken.

15 Q. Do you know whether during the war anyone had been killed by a

16 shell or suffered any injury on account of a shell in the immediate

17 vicinity of the pensioners' centre?

18 A. Yes, of course. I don't know what date this was, but this was

19 about 10:00 a.m. when the shells started landing on Samac, and right

20 across from this building, in the direction of the -- was the -- was the

21 shop, the store of Bosanka, the trading company, and Refika Pisarevic

22 worked there, so a shell landed on it and killed her. Also on the same

23 day a Muslim boy was killed by the municipal building. His father's name,

24 or rather, his father was called Bibe Ranko. He was not killed on the

25 spot, but he succumbed to his injuries very shortly after getting hit.

Page 14598

1 Q. Did you, as a civil defence staff, were you able of ordering any

2 citizen to go into a shelter?

3 A. Well, we didn't order anyone, but we informed all the citizens

4 where these shelters were, for them to see which was the nearest one to

5 them in the event of shelling, so they could indeed seek shelter in them.

6 We were in no position to issue any orders to anyone. And of course, we

7 didn't know when the shelling would start either.

8 Q. Did you -- could you, as civil defence staff, forbid anyone to

9 leave a shelter if that someone wanted to go home from it?

10 A. I don't see how we could have done that, forbidden anyone. If we

11 didn't know that anyone was in the shelter. Actually, our duty was to

12 inform the citizens were the shelters were and as to whether they would

13 flee from the shelters, that was up to them.

14 Q. Thank you. Tell me: Did you encounter any problems during the

15 war in Samac with unexploded mines, and did your staff have anything to do

16 with that?

17 A. I personally had been reported about such incidents on a couple of

18 occasions that a shell had landed, namely, and that it hadn't exploded.

19 Marko would come and inform me: This spot has been marked. I would

20 immediately inform the command brigade in Pelagicevo by telephone, because

21 they had a demining expert units situated there. And they would send

22 personnel to deal with the problem.

23 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Lukic, you are aware of the remaining time for

24 this witness?

25 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I said in my third and fourth

Page 14599

1 submissions that I would be interrogating this witness between four hours,

2 and I believe that I will be able to finish within three or four hours. I

3 will not go into much detail. I just want to finish the topic of civil

4 defence.

5 MR. WEINER: Your Honour --

6 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Weiner.

7 MR. WEINER: Your Honour, this is the first witness who has

8 provided any information on the civil defence, so we would have no

9 objection to counsel bringing out some testimony on this civil defence, or

10 civil protection.

11 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, yes, as long as he does that within the time

12 allocated.

13 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] My topics will be associated solely

14 with civil defence.

15 Q. How many telephones did you have in the civil defence staff that

16 were operational?

17 A. Just one.

18 Q. Do you know how many telephones were operational in that building,

19 generally speaking, during the war?

20 A. Just that one telephone.

21 Q. Who minded that telephone? Who sat by that telephone as a rule?

22 A. All of us members of the civil defence staff, when we didn't leave

23 the premises, we would be there. We would take turns. I would be the one

24 who would spend most of the time there, as well as Ismet Ramusovic and

25 Zeljko Volasevic, while he was there.

Page 14600

1 Q. Tell me: Who called you on the phone, and who did people want to

2 speak to relative to the existing services in that building? Was the

3 civil defence the only one who used the phone? Would you tell us a bit

4 about that?

5 A. After the telephone lines went down in town, there remained just

6 several operational telephones, the one in the Executive Board, the one

7 that we had, the one in the post office and in the secretariat of defence,

8 as far as I know, and this telephone was used not only by those who

9 assigned the workers, but we had lots of problems. Every time someone

10 called in respect of a problem connected with the assignment of workers

11 and the service, I had to transmit such messages to the effect that

12 someone was looking for a worker. I would go to go down, convey the

13 message to them, and return upstairs. In addition to that, when families

14 left Samac, all the people crowded in to use our phone, because they

15 didn't know where the families were. They wanted to establish contact to

16 seek their families. So it was a general rush on our phone. The only one

17 operational phone which the citizenry could use.

18 Q. I'm interested in this first part of your story in more detail.

19 Did this Kapetanovic, whom you mentioned, and these people who worked as

20 the desk officers for assigning people to work duty, did they have any

21 other contact with the, so to speak, outside world, except by way of your

22 telephone, the telephone connection?

23 A. No, they didn't.

24 Q. What were the requests placed via your telephone? What kind of

25 information was required through you by that phone? Please describe this

Page 14601

1 for us. Give us an example, in fact.

2 A. Well, we had instances of several workers being required to go and

3 work somewhere, and they had no telephone connection, so they would

4 transmit to us to convey to them how many workers were needed, where these

5 workers were needed, so we would convey this message to them downstairs,

6 and that was, as far as we were concerned, we had to receive such messages

7 and we had to transmit them.

8 Q. So whatever messages you were given by phone, you had to relay to

9 them. But tell us: Who was they?

10 A. Mr. Kapetanovic and then -- while he was there, and then Mr. Celic

11 and after Celic it was Misic. So they took turns.

12 Q. In addition to relaying these messages, did you do -- have

13 anything to do with the work duty service people as civil defence staff,

14 apart from the relaying of messages?

15 A. The relationship that we had with them was such that whenever we

16 needed some intervention on a certain facility, as a matter of urgency,

17 then we would ask them whether they could make their men available to us

18 for such repairs, or rather, remedial action to be undertaken. So these

19 were the personal contacts that we had on a personal basis between the

20 civil defence staff members and them, as far as we were concerned.

21 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Will the witness be shown a document

22 now which I wish to tender into evidence, which is marked PDB 20/3.

23 [In English] 20/3.

24 Q. [Interpretation] Can you take a -- you can in fact take a look at

25 it directly or on the ELMO, as you wish. Are you familiar with this

Page 14602

1 document, Mr. Vukovic?

2 A. It is -- I am. I am familiar. I wrote this document. And

3 Miroslav Tadic signed it.

4 Q. Can you please specify for us approximately for which month was

5 this payroll list drawn up or, as we put it, for remuneration?

6 A. This was for the month of May. I can see that where I wrote that

7 Tesic Stojan received a salary for April in his unit, because he was in

8 the army, then -- and then we took him over, withdrew him from the unit in

9 order to drive goods for the needs of the staff and to be available for

10 the staff.

11 Q. Tell me about this Ismet Hurtic. It also says "driver" here. Of

12 what ethnicity was this person?

13 A. He was a Muslim.

14 Q. Did they then as drivers work on something else, on a different

15 job associated with the civil defence staff? What was this truck of the

16 civil defence used for?

17 A. Ismet Hurtic was mainly engaged working for the Red Cross and this

18 was his own private car. But for the needs of the civil defence staff, he

19 mainly transported coffins to the morgue and the dead to the cemeteries at

20 which their funerals were to take place. This was his job where the civil

21 defence staff were concerned. Otherwise he worked for the Red Cross.

22 Q. It says in this document Miroslav Tadic will be paid out in the

23 Crisis Staff. Do you know anything about that? Was Tadic a member of the

24 Crisis Staff? Do you know that? And did he receive his salary in the

25 Crisis Staff?

Page 14603

1 A. I didn't know whether he was a member of the Crisis Staff, nor did

2 I ever ask him about whether he was a member. But I do know that he went

3 to sessions and he told me to write this the way it is written and that he

4 would be paid out there and to tell the person drawing up the list, the

5 payroll list with the amounts to be paid out, that he was also to be

6 reckoned with.

7 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I don't need this document any

8 longer. Can we please now go into private session, because I would like

9 to put a few questions to the witness. But before that, can we please be

10 assigned a number for this document, if there are no objections.

11 MR. WEINER: No objections.

12 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit D106/3 and ter for the B/C/S.

13 [Private session]

14 [redacted]

15 [redacted]

16 [redacted]

17 [redacted]

18 [redacted]

19 [redacted]

20 [redacted]

21 [redacted]

22 [redacted]

23 [redacted]

24 [redacted]

25 [redacted]

Page 14604

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Page 14605

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2 [redacted]

3 [redacted]

4 [redacted]

5 [redacted]

6 [redacted]

7 [redacted]

8 [redacted]

9 [redacted]

10 [redacted]

11 [redacted]

12 [redacted]

13 [redacted]

14 [redacted]

15 [redacted]

16 [redacted]

17 [Open session]

18 Did you on that occasion see Miroslav Tadic and Simo Zaric in the

19 cafe?

20 A. No.

21 Q. Thank you. Did the civilian protection have any role in securing

22 a water supply for the hospital during those days, and why was it so?

23 A. There was no power in town.

24 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Lukic, before the answer: When you asked the

25 witness a question whereby he had to mention two of the accused persons,

Page 14606

1 did you want that to be in open session?

2 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Yes. Yes. That's fine with me.

3 Q. Please continue telling us.

4 A. There was no power in all of town. The water supply could not

5 function. Then also the aggregates could not work. The first day or two

6 we had to provide water in trucks from the artesian wells from the

7 villages around. Very soon the water supply aggregates started working,

8 and then in the morning and in the evening, water would be put into the

9 water trucks and one water truck would be by the hospital. It would be

10 there for the haemodialysis department. And the other one at the kitchen

11 at Tekstilac. And that is the way it was done every morning and every

12 evening. These water trucks were filled and then the aggregate would go

13 on, because there was not enough fuel for it to work all the time. So

14 then the water trucks would be loaded and then they would stop working,

15 the aggregates.

16 Q. And who organised this particular work?

17 A. The civilian protection staff.

18 Q. Thank you. Did the civilian protection staff need a plumber, and

19 if so, who did that particular work?

20 A. As soon as this started, we asked the secretariat for defence to

21 have an electrician and a plumber put at the disposal of the staff all the

22 time. They met this request of ours. I don't know the name of the

23 electrician. He was there only for a very short while and then he ran

24 away. And Ibrahim Karic, plumber and locksmith, remained all the time

25 with the civilian protection staff. And I can tell you that in January

Page 14607

1 1993 that this was really a fateful month in the time of Samac because

2 water pipes were bursting and had we not had this man, there would have

3 been a catastrophe.

4 Q. This Ibrahim Karic, did he ever leave Samac?

5 A. No, he didn't.

6 Q. Did he work for the civil protection staff all the time while you

7 were there?

8 A. All the time. And it's not only that he worked on the water

9 supply. He is also a locksmith. He went to repair locks at apartment

10 buildings. And when locks did not work, when you couldn't lock a door and

11 unlock a door, then he would be sent out to take care of it.

12 Q. All right, Mr. Vukovic. Do you know anything about organising

13 some evacuation for Serbia? When did this happen and what did your staff

14 do at that time, if anything?

15 A. The evacuation of women and children in Samac started in an

16 organised manner on the 15th, 16th, and 17th of May.

17 Q. What year?

18 A. In 1992. In the same time, such organization was conducted in the

19 villages of the municipality, in order to get the women and children away,

20 because Samac was shelled all the time, as well as the area beyond Samac,

21 in the municipality. Our task was to provide buses. As for the lists, it

22 is the command that handled that. We did not compile the lists. And

23 these families, on the 15th and 16th and 17th of May, well, someone, I

24 don't know who, I never asked Miroslav Tadic about that either, we were

25 supposed to take citizens who wanted to go, those who would report to us

Page 14608

1 and said that they wanted to go, and then we would write their names

2 down. In the meantime we received information stating that further

3 evacuation of the population was impossible because of the combat

4 operations at Vucilovac and Brcko. And also they provided information

5 from Serbia, the Red Cross did, that they were no longer in a position to

6 take in any more people from Bosnia.

7 Q. Just slow down. Just slow down. Just slow down, please.

8 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Weiner.

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No one left, according to those

10 lists.

11 MR. WEINER: Just one brief question. He indicated that they

12 supplied the buses, but the command made the lists. Could he explain

13 whether or not that's military command, civilian command? I think it

14 would be helpful to the Court, as well as the Prosecution.

15 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

16 Q. You heard the Prosecutor's question?

17 A. I did.

18 Q. Where did the people report and who made these lists?

19 A. The military command compiled the lists, and advantage was given

20 to their families, the families of fighters who were at the front line and

21 who they -- and who could not be taken care of.

22 Q. Do you know whether people reported to the local Red Cross for

23 these evacuations?

24 A. I don't know about that. I don't know about that.

25 Q. Tell me in the meantime people did apply. But when you say in the

Page 14609

1 meantime, does that mean after that evacuation?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. All right. So after that evacuation, was pressure brought to bear

4 on your staff?

5 A. At that time we made lists. We wrote down names of persons. But

6 in the meantime, they said nothing doing. So these lists that we made

7 just stopped and nothing came out of it.

8 Q. Do you remember -- do you remember when people applied there to

9 you? Was it members of all three ethnic groups that did so?

10 A. We wrote down the names of all persons who came in to report.

11 There were Muslims and Croats and Serbs, and everyone who was in Samac at

12 that moment.

13 Q. Could you tell me whether there were any problems with glass in

14 Samac, with window glass, and did the civilian protection staff have a

15 role to play there?

16 A. In addition to the other tasks and work that was carried out by

17 the civilian protection staff, that was one of the key jobs that we had to

18 take care of. Fortunately for us, at that time, at Uniglas, at the glass

19 factory, there was quite a lot of glass. We managed to place glass panes

20 everywhere where glass had been broken during the operations. But soon

21 after that, all this would be broken yet again. We had no more glass.

22 Then, through the Red Cross, we started asking for nylon. At first we had

23 ordinary see-through nylon, thin, that is easily broken or ripped. Later

24 on, the Red Cross provided for reinforced nylon. With this reinforced

25 nylon, we protected the residential buildings. So that lasted longer.

Page 14610

1 Q. Thank you. One of the greatest jobs that was carried out by the

2 civilian protection was probably everything that had to do with funerals.

3 How did that come about, that you organised funerals, and what was the job

4 of the civilian protection in relation to funerals? Could you please

5 explain that?

6 A. I was precisely the person who took care of that in the civilian

7 defence staff. Funerals not only of combatants, but also of civilians who

8 were killed by shelling or by bullets in town. At first -- I mean, we had

9 three stores of funeral equipment, and we used the coffins that were

10 there, and then there were no more coffins left. And then we had no place

11 to get them from. And then we organised ourselves in order to make

12 coffins of plywood. We organised that, first at the premises of the

13 former Buducnost carpentry shop. Then we transferred this to the

14 carpentry shop not far away from As, Brko's cafe, and that was the

15 building of the public utility company before the war and then that worked

16 as the carpentry shop. In view of the fact that coffins were needed, we

17 did not only provide coffins for the town of Samac but for the entire area

18 of the municipality, and even Pelagicevo, in the present-day municipality

19 of Orasje. Some also for the territory of the municipality of Modrica.

20 In that area, no one was involved in the making of coffins in an organised

21 manner.

22 At that time, we had Mihajlo Novic, who was a man who was

23 involved in this kind of work at Buducnost anyway. We asked him to head

24 the group that made coffins. We asked the people who sent people out for

25 work obligation to give us craftsmen who knew how to handle this kind of

Page 14611

1 work, and we got such people, and coffins were made all the time.

2 Q. Do you have any idea as to how many coffins were made in that

3 period while you worked at the staff?

4 A. Between 550 and 600.

5 Q. As a staff, how many funerals did you organise in the town of

6 Samac?

7 A. I cannot tell you off the cuff.

8 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Lukic, are those details really necessary? Is

9 it not sufficient that funerals were organised, the way the witness has

10 described?

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- a hundred.

12 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I thought that in this way we could

13 see what the death rate was in the area. But all right. I'm not going to

14 go into all the details. Could the witness please be shown PDB 29/3,

15 internally marked.

16 Q. Could you tell me whether you are aware of this document?

17 A. Yes, I know this document.

18 Q. Who are the persons on this list?

19 A. This is the group that made coffins. It was headed by Mihajlo

20 Novic, the first one. He was the foreman in charge. And the rest were

21 craftsmen who made coffins. For the most part -- or actually, all of them

22 were Muslims, and they were engaged in terms of work obligation and they

23 received salaries as well.

24 Q. Tell me: This Novic, what is he by ethnicity?

25 A. A Serb.

Page 14612

1 Q. And you know that all of them received salaries on the basis of

2 this time they spent working that was recorded here?

3 A. Well, here is the amount of dinars that they were supposed to

4 receive. Here it is, all the amounts.

5 Q. Who recorded these amounts, and who was this given to?

6 A. This was done at the civilian protection staff. Miroslav Tadic

7 was probably not there, and I see that it was Trivo Lukic who signed. As

8 for these lists, we sent them to the Executive Board of the Assembly, and

9 they familiarised the secretariat of defence with this, and that is where

10 we went to get money in order to pay these people.

11 Q. So they received money through your staff?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Did these persons work there for you, attached to the staff, your

14 staff, for a long time, this group for making coffins?

15 A. Well, I left the civilian protection staff and they still went on

16 working there.

17 Q. Lest there be any misunderstanding, the person under number 5 is

18 called Ibrahim Salkic. Is that the man who has a nickname Ibela or is

19 this some other person?

20 A. It's not Ibela. I know Ibela personally. Well, I know this man

21 too, but I can't really remember his family.

22 Q. Thank you.

23 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we please have a number for this

24 document.

25 THE REGISTRAR: It will be Exhibit D107/3 and ter for the B/C/S.

Page 14613

1 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

2 Q. Just in brief regarding funerals: Apart from the making of

3 coffins, what did the civil defence staff also organise when it came to

4 funerals?

5 A. When we were informed by the doctor that someone had been taken to

6 the morgue, we would immediately inform our staff. We had five people,

7 five elderly people who were pensioners who were at our disposal, and they

8 would go and bathe the corpses. And of course, dress them and treat them

9 appropriately. So after they had been placed -- bathed and prepared and

10 put in the coffins, then we would organise the funerals. Of course, to

11 the Serbian cemetery for Serbs; Muslim for Muslims; and the Croatian for

12 Croats. This was when it came to military personnel. However, when it

13 came to the funerals of civilians who had perished either due to shelling

14 or bullets, we would provide coffins for them. We would also -- the

15 actual digging of the grave would be provided by us, the transportation of

16 the coffin for burial, and the actual funeral that was our work. They

17 would be -- their families would organise the bathing and the preparation

18 of the deceased themselves.

19 Q. Thank you.

20 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Will the document -- the witness be

21 shown the document internally marked PDB 58/3.

22 Q. Will you take a look at this document. Are you familiar with it?

23 A. Yes, I am. I signed the document.

24 Q. It is your signature?

25 A. I wrote it and I signed it.

Page 14614

1 Q. What is it about?

2 A. This is a document for the payment of people --

3 Q. Slow down. Slow down. Or rather, turn the other page of the

4 document. Turn to page 2. What is this document about? You were

5 saying. What was this about?

6 A. Payment. Payment of salaries for the month of August 1992, which

7 shows that Trivo Lukic and Aco Popovic and Ismet Ramusovic are no longer

8 on this list. Sead Tnoliscovic [phoen] is on this list, however engaged

9 by the commissioner for the city of Samac to take care of the wood. There

10 are the drivers, Ismet Hurtic, Stojan Tesic, Petra Lujic, and Ibrahim

11 Karic a plumber.

12 Q. Please slow down. I will be asking the questions. Wait a

13 minute. The further explanation is not essential. Just tell me: On this

14 list, Miroslav Tadic, as the commander of the staff, has some amount by

15 his name and some money. Was he then receiving his salary through your

16 staff? That is my question to you.

17 A. We would not have put him on the list and the corresponding amount

18 of money if he hadn't been. He informed us for the first time that he had

19 received his salary in the Crisis Staff and he no longer informed us. We

20 just put him on the list and he would be receiving his salaries together

21 with us.

22 Q. Thank you.

23 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we be assigned a number for this

24 document?

25 THE REGISTRAR: It will be Exhibit D108/3 and ter for the B/C/S.

Page 14615

1 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

2 Q. Now we shall move on to another topic. Did the civil defence

3 staff in the beginning of the war have any activities associated with

4 taking stock of the number of flats? When and why?

5 A. Immediately after the organised evacuation of the population, we

6 proceeded with the taking stock of the flats and the sealing of private

7 houses and residential buildings.

8 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Lukic, this document has got two pages, and on

9 the English translation, both pages are marked 1. Can we just have B for

10 the second page, please, so that we don't get confused. If you look at

11 it --

12 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I fully agree, yes. We can --

13 JUDGE MUMBA: I'll speak to the registry, to tell us. Because

14 one -- according to the English, one of them, in the left-hand, is

15 entitled civilian protection centre and the other one, the left-hand side,

16 is called health care Samac.

17 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Yes, that's right. Yes, you are

18 right. On the second page there is the signature of the Executive Board,

19 the ones doing the paying out of the salaries. So these are two different

20 documents and two different seals and signatures. First of all a list of

21 people and then the list of the ones doing the paying, the actual paying

22 out. But this is the same organization, staff of the civil defence. It

23 is just the procedure of the payment which is in two parts.

24 THE REGISTRAR: So there's a correction. The document for the

25 civilian protection centre will be Exhibit D108/3 and ter for the B/C/S.

Page 14616

1 And document entitled health care Samac will be D109/3 and ter for the

2 B/C/S.

3 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I just have to remark, Your Honours,

4 so lest we have any later problems. For this document to be placed on the

5 ELMO again, because there is a mistranslation of the document on the

6 second page. Above the word "subject" or -- it's best if it's read out by

7 the witness. We have -- it also says "civilian defence," so this is a

8 mistranslation of the document. Perhaps we could clarify it by having it

9 put on the ELMO. Because the next page also refers in the heading to the

10 civil defence staff and not to the health centre.

11 Q. Please, Mr. Vukovic, take a look above the word "subject." What

12 is written above the word "subject"? Can you read it?

13 A. I cannot.

14 Q. Take a direct look on the paper. The left -- the top left corner,

15 above the word "subject."

16 A. The civil defence staff Samac. I can see the letters which are

17 visible, V-I-L-N-E, which is the end of the word civilne, civil.

18 Q. Thank you.

19 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I believe that there is no dispute

20 also on the part of the Prosecution, so that we could mark this document

21 108B/3 as data on salaries for the staff of the civil defence for the

22 month of August, if that is all right.

23 MR. WEINER: No objection from the Prosecution.

24 JUDGE MUMBA: Very well.

25 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] My colleagues have just now warned me

Page 14617

1 that the document's number is 109.

2 Q. So we started talking about, if you remember, the inventorying and

3 the sealing of apartments, of flats. And you told me that this was

4 organised after this evacuation of people to Serbia. So my first question

5 is: Were only the flats of those people who had left to Serbia sealed

6 off, or was there an organised sealing off of all abandoned flats in the

7 territory of the city?

8 A. All the abandoned flats were sealed. We sealed off all the

9 abandoned flats and indicated, wrote on each door that the flat was not to

10 be entered into by anyone unless previously reporting to the civil defence

11 staff. And initially, the citizens respected this. They would come

12 there. They would see the flat. They wouldn't be able to go in. So we

13 would send someone to unseal the flat for that person to see, tour the

14 flat, inspect the flat, and return after, once the flat would be sealed

15 again. This was the procedure.

16 Q. If the person wanted to remain in his flat?

17 A. There would be no need to reseal it again, of course.

18 Q. Thank you.

19 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] But will document D63/3 be placed in

20 front of the witness, because it is connected with this topic. It relates

21 to this subject.

22 Q. You said that this evacuation to Serbia took place in mid-May.

23 How long did this sealing of apartments process last, this whole

24 enterprise, and what did you do with the lists of the flats that had been

25 thus sealed?

Page 14618

1 A. We did it very quickly. We organised teams to go and work in the

2 different city sections. One section would be covered by one team,

3 another by another, a third by a third, a fourth by a fourth team, and we

4 completed this job in two days. We had taken stock of all such flats.

5 Q. Please take a look at this document to refresh your memory. Are

6 you familiar with this document?

7 A. Yes, certainly. I made the lists. I drew up the lists about

8 taking stock of flats and private houses, and we submitted these lists to

9 the Executive Board under this covering letter, precisely this letter.

10 Q. When you finished the inventorying of the flats and submitted the

11 list to the Executive Board, did the civil defence staff have anything

12 more to do with the taking stock of flats and the deserted -- the

13 abandoned, empty flats in Samac?

14 A. No. As far as the housing issue was concerned, we did not -- we

15 were no longer involved in that anymore. All the documentation related to

16 housing facilities. We submitted to the organ, the appropriate organ,

17 which is the -- of the Executive Board of the Municipal Assembly.

18 Q. Which organ? Do you know?

19 A. They had set up this organ for housing and utility affairs, headed

20 by Veso Blagojevic in the board.

21 Q. Thank you. You can see on the second page of this document, if

22 you take a look -- take a look. Or rather, on the first page. Did the

23 civil defence staff put up certain persons on a provisional basis there?

24 Who were these persons? Why? Do you remember this?

25 A. These were the first days of the war. Their houses are situated

Page 14619

1 in the triangle between the rivers Bosna and Sava. And immediately -- and

2 the River Bosna actually separates Prud from Samac. Shells were fired

3 from Prud on Samac, and their houses were the first to be damaged. So

4 these three families, except Marinko, whose house was towards the exit

5 from Samac, on the other side of the city, but a shell had penetrated

6 through the building of the pumping station, which pumps water from the

7 Sava, and hit Marinko's house and devastated the place, and he could not

8 repair it until the war had ended. And as for these two families, we had

9 to find temporary accommodation for them until repairs took place, and

10 repairs took place very quickly. The roof was covered. They changed

11 the -- replaced the damaged tiles. The windows were glazed. And then

12 they returned. So this was just temporary accommodation for them.

13 However, Marinko remained there until the very end of the war.

14 Q. We shall not go into details. Just tell me about Mujo Tokalic,

15 of what ethnicity is he?

16 A. Mujo Tokalic is a Muslim.

17 Q. Thank you.

18 MR. LUKIC: I don't need this document anymore. [Interpretation]

19 Will the witness please be shown document marked PDB 145/3.

20 Q. Sir, look at this document, it is self-explanatory, but it bears

21 no date. So could you please tell me if you know who compiled this

22 document and when? Do you know that?

23 A. I don't know who drew up this document, nor do I know when. But

24 the persons that I see on the list are persons who were killed, mostly

25 civilians who were killed, not only in the city of Samac but also in the

Page 14620

1 villages, because, for instance, I can see Vukovic Bogisava, father Luka,

2 from Brvnik. She lay in her bed. I know this full well. And she was hit

3 by a bullet as she lay there in her bed.

4 Q. Do you see members of all the three ethnicities, ethnic groups, on

5 this list?

6 A. Omeranovic Fikret.

7 Q. Just tell me. Just respond.

8 A. A Muslim; Popovic Zorka, a Serb lady; Vukovic Bogisava, a Serb

9 lady; Stojaric Ruza [phoen], a Serb lady.

10 Q. Thank you. Thank you. You don't have to read out the names. Are

11 there members of all the three ethnic groups here?

12 A. Yes, there are.

13 Q. Thank you.

14 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we be assigned a number for this

15 document, please?

16 THE REGISTRAR: It will be Exhibit D110/3 and ter.

17 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

18 Q. Are you aware that civilians were killed and injured in the

19 territory of Samac throughout the war period?

20 A. Until the signing of the Dayton Accords, Samac came under

21 shelling, and the heaviest shelling was after 1992, and in 1992 we also

22 had non-stop shelling, and in 1995, in August --

23 Q. But this is irrelevant.

24 A. Samac came under the heaviest shelling in that year.

25 Q. When you say that there was round the clock, non-stop shelling in

Page 14621

1 1992, what do you imply by that?

2 A. I'm saying that there was incessant shelling, and no one could

3 relax because you never knew when a shell might land, and no one could

4 move around freely because everybody had to be on the alert at all times,

5 because this was a constant danger.

6 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. I think perhaps that we

7 could take our break now.

8 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, until 12.50.

9 --- Recess taken at 12.30 p.m.

10 --- On resuming at 12.51 p.m.

11 MR. LUKIC: May I proceed?

12 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.

13 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could the witness please be shown PDB

14 7/3, please.

15 Q. You can have a look at this paper directly.

16 A. I can see it here too, and I know what this is all about.

17 Q. I'm going to put a few questions to you now in relation to this

18 document. Who established this commission for identification? What

19 service, what authority did that?

20 A. The civilian protection staff.

21 Q. Tell us: What did these people do? What was their task? What

22 was their line of work? You don't have to tell us only in relation to

23 this specific document, but what did this commission for identification,

24 as it was called, do?

25 A. When we encountered the problem of unknown persons who were killed

Page 14622

1 and who were at the morgue, we didn't know what to do. We called the

2 chief of staff, the General Staff, rather, of the Yugoslav army in

3 Belgrade, and they said to us that we had to establish a commission in

4 which there had to be a doctor, a judge, and a photographer. There had to

5 be two colour photographs taken, and the corpse had to be given a number

6 and buried under that number, and also a record had to be written.

7 Miroslav suggested that Dr. Nogic, Mesud, be called in, and that we tell

8 him that he should be a member of the commission for identification. And

9 this Goran Blagojevic, who was a judge, and Rado Petrovic, a photographer.

10 Q. Just a minute, please. I think that it is not being contested at

11 all in this case, but let's just state for the record: What is Dr. Nogic

12 by ethnicity?

13 A. Dr. Nogic was a Muslim.

14 Q. Tell me: Where did you receive this kind of information from,

15 that there was a corpse at the morgue, and what was the procedure then?

16 A. It was customary for Dr. Mirko Sisic to always ask for me, to tell

17 me how many dead people were brought into the morgue, so that I would know

18 how to organise matters further. The bathing of the body, the funeral,

19 et cetera. And we were happy when he would not call.

20 Q. No doubt about that. Tell me: When this record is written, then

21 what is done with the record?

22 A. This person would be buried usually in a bag, and then the body

23 bag with the body in it would be put into the coffin. Then one copy of

24 this record, one photograph, and the number that was assigned, all that

25 would be put into the bag. And on the cross, only the number would be

Page 14623

1 inscribed. Also, this photograph and this number and also a copy of the

2 record would remain in the civilian protection staff.

3 Q. Did these corpses have anything to do with the front line?

4 A. Precisely, these persons that are concerned here were killed,

5 precisely where the war operations had started.

6 Q. Tell me: If the identity of the person involved would be

7 established, what would then follow? Would the family be informed?

8 A. The family would be informed. We had a case with Stanko

9 Vukosavljevic. He went missing. His family was looking for him. We were

10 informed that he had been wounded. We did not find him. A corpse was

11 brought into the morgue. We called his father. This commission went.

12 Everything corresponded, but when the father said: My son has different

13 teeth, then that was it. Then that was not his son.

14 Q. We don't have to go into such detail. Did copies of this record

15 remain at the civilian protection staff for your own records?

16 A. I said so. One copy would be put into an envelope, one copy of

17 this record, with the photograph, and also the number under which this

18 person was buried. That would remain with us.

19 Q. And the civilian protection staff, in relation to funerals of

20 combatants, did you organise any other kind of assistance related to

21 funerals? Just in a few words, please.

22 A. It was customary that we would give one kilogram of coffee, three

23 kilograms of sugar, and two boxes of fruit juice, that is to say, 24

24 bottles of fruit juice. This would be taken to the family of every person

25 who got killed, throughout the war.

Page 14624

1 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I would like this document to receive

2 an exhibit number, please.

3 THE REGISTRAR: It will be Exhibit D111/3 and ter for the B/C/S.

4 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Now I would like to ask for the

5 witness to be shown D60/3. That has already been admitted into evidence.

6 Q. Have you seen this document before? Do you personally know about

7 this?

8 A. I did not see this document.

9 Q. Please take a look at it, please. Could you act in accordance

10 with this document when you dealt with funerals? Could you please look at

11 Article 5?

12 A. Could it please be moved a bit so that I see this article?

13 Without knowing about this document at all, this is precisely the way we

14 acted. I think I said so once that we buried the Muslims at the Muslim

15 graveyard, the Croats at the Croat graveyard, and the Serbs at the Serb

16 graveyard. And that is exactly what it says in this document.

17 Q. Did you manage to ensure the presence of a priest when soldiers

18 were buried?

19 A. As for the soldiers who were of Serb ethnicity, we did. As for

20 the soldiers who were of other ethnic backgrounds, we did not manage to

21 provide for any.

22 Q. Mr. Vukovic, did you hear about exchanges, exchanges taking place

23 in Samac?

24 A. Yes, I did.

25 Q. Do you know whether Miroslav Tadic had anything to do with these

Page 14625

1 exchanges?

2 A. During the first months of the war, as far as I know, Miroslav was

3 president of the commission for exchange. Very soon, he said to me that

4 this duty was taken over by Velimir Maslic, who was head of the Red Cross

5 and of the social welfare service. But Brko always went to him to

6 negotiations that had to do with exchanges. I was not very much

7 interested in this. I was not involved in this particular matter. But

8 when they had discussions in his office about persons who were supposed to

9 be exchanged, I did not really express much interest in that, but I heard

10 him say a few times, to Veljo, I was at negotiations, Veljo, they are

11 looking for such-and-such a person, and they are giving us such and such a

12 person. That's what I know about exchanges. There's nothing else I know,

13 really.

14 Q. As the civilian protection staff, did you have anything to do with

15 exchanges?

16 A. No.

17 Q. Today you mentioned these members of the special units from

18 Serbia. I asked you at the outset whether you saw them later too. Do you

19 remember whether you saw a man nicknamed Lugar among these men? Just

20 that. Yes or no.

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Tell me: What was your attitude towards this man? What kind of

23 an impression did he create when you would see him, and these special

24 forces from Serbia in general?

25 A. As far as Lugar is concerned, let me tell you one thing: There is

Page 14626

1 not a single person in Samac who is not afraid of Lugar, regardless of the

2 ethnic background of anybody. That building where I worked, where this

3 platoon for work obligation was, and there was this Cajic from Srnja

4 [phoen], this man who came -- young man and he wanted to kill him. And

5 there were lots of people there and he simply ran away. So Lugar

6 instilled fear in --

7 Q. Just one moment. Just wait a second. Who wanted to kill who?

8 A. Lugar wanted to kill Cajic. I can't remember his first name

9 now, but I know this young man very well. I can't remember his first

10 name, though. Over there, on the sidewalk, in the street.

11 Q. Do you know Cajic's ethnicity at least?

12 A. He was a Serb.

13 Q. Was there any reason for that? Was there a quarrel beforehand, a

14 conflict or something?

15 A. I saw no such thing. Well, later I saw Lugar at our office, and a

16 few days before that, I heard with my very own ears that he called

17 Miroslav Tadic and he swore at him and he said I would come with a hand

18 grenade and put it into your mouth. I heard that through the telephone

19 receiver. I heard it with my very own ears.

20 Q. Who was sitting next to you?

21 A. Miroslav and I were sitting there.

22 Q. And who was Miroslav speaking to over the telephone?

23 A. With Lugar.

24 Q. And what did you hear Lugar say to Miroslav Tadic?

25 A. I heard him swear at him, curse his mother. I don't know why,

Page 14627

1 though. And I heard him say: I will come there and put a hand grenade

2 into your mouth.

3 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Mr. Lukic, I think that last response clarified

4 what I was going to point it out, but I will point it out any way, on line

5 13 of page 78, the transcript talks about a woman with a hand grenade,

6 so I think -- it's been clarified, but I point it out as rather something

7 strange on the record as it now stands.

8 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Yes, yes. I think we've clarified it

9 now, and there's no need to go back to that subject.

10 Q. This Lugar, did he come to your offices of the civilian protection

11 staff? Did you personally see him?

12 A. I saw him when they came from the exchange, from the area of

13 Orasje, Goranovic. I don't know his first name. And also another young

14 man from Dubica. Lugar came and Stevan Todorovic, the chief of SUP at

15 that time, they came to our office. Miroslav Tadic sat in his own chair

16 at the desk where he sat every day. Lugar sat in a corner, at the corner

17 of that desk, and then Stevan Todorovic sat next to him.

18 Q. Go on now.

19 A. And on this other side, these two men who had come from the

20 exchange were sitting.

21 Q. Just a moment, please. Just a moment, please. These two men who

22 had come from the exchange, what is their ethnicity?

23 A. They're Serbs.

24 Q. Proceed.

25 A. They sat at the opposite end of the table. And he started

Page 14628

1 provoking them.

2 Q. Who started provoking who?

3 A. Lugar started provoking those two Serbs who were brought from the

4 exchange from the territory of Orasje.

5 Q. Please proceed.

6 A. And he said to this Goranovic: Could I take you to prison now,

7 and could you pull out Ustashas' eyeballs with your fingers? And

8 Goranovic said no, and then he said to him --

9 Q. Who answered who? When Goranovic said no, then what happened?

10 Was

11 it Goranovic speaking then?

12 A. Goranovic said to Lugar I could not go and tear out the Adam's

13 apple of Croat throats. Lugar then said: I see that you have a ruddy

14 face. You fared well over there, didn't you? And then Goranovic answered

15 to him, to Lugar: There are persons in the municipality of Orasje who I

16 would like to give a treat to, but Pera Konj beat me up. Three of my

17 ribs are broken. At that time, I left the office. When I came back,

18 Miroslav said to me: We almost got killed, all of us. Lugar had a

19 pistol, dropped it, it fired, and it broke a coat hanger in the corner of

20 the office. Well, that was my meeting with Lugar. I never saw him again.

21 Q. Just one thing: When you saw Tadic after that, when you returned

22 to the office, what did Tadic look like? What kind of impression did what

23 Lugar -- did Lugar leave, or rather, what Lugar did?

24 A. When I came, Miroslav Tadic was trembling, and he said: We almost

25 got killed, all of us here in this office. Fortunately, this pistol fired

Page 14629

1 into the corner. Of course, nobody felt good when a weapon went off.

2 Q. Do you think that Tadic was afraid of this man Lugar?

3 A. Well, I don't know whether he was afraid or not, but after that

4 kind of telephone conversation, he probably didn't feel that it was all

5 the same to him whether he saw him or not.

6 Q. Do you know a man by the name of Avram?

7 A. Yes, I do.

8 Q. Do you know that he maltreated Miroslav Tadic?

9 A. Yes, I know, but it was quite by accident, quite by chance, that I

10 arrived in front of AS, Miroslav Tadic's cafe. I had some business with

11 him. I went there from the staff. And Miroslav was talking on the

12 phone. I don't know to whom. At the other table was sitting this Avram

13 person, and another man, a refugee from Novi Grad, and Sasa Maslic, also

14 from Samac, was sitting there, and there was a fourth person, and I don't

15 know who that fourth person was. The minute I sat down at my table, and I

16 was straight in the direction of Avram, he took his gun, he pointed it at

17 Miroslav, and he swore and showered abuse at him. He said -- he cursed

18 his mother. He said: I'm going to come and pluck your hairs out one by

19 one. Miroslav just stopped his conversation and said: Just be quiet. So

20 he stood up several times and grabbed his rifle. And on the other side,

21 another one, another person in a camouflage uniform, special unit member,

22 stood up and told him: Come on, Avram. Get a hold of yourself. Let the

23 man be.

24 At that moment, and I was really very scared, because all of a

25 sudden there was this person pointing his weapons at people, and I was

Page 14630

1 there also. And then --

2 Q. We shall not go into any further details. There's no need?

3 MR. WEINER: Excuse me.

4 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.

5 MR. WEINER: Can we get a date of this, please, or an

6 approximation?

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I heard the question. I cannot

8 remember the date when this happened. I think it was in early May, the

9 first days of May.

10 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

11 Q. Were the -- was the telephone -- were the telephones still

12 operational in Samac in those days?

13 A. Yes, the telephones were still operational then.

14 Q. Tell me: Have you heard of any incident in the village of Crkvina

15 that took place in the beginning of May?

16 A. Yes. I heard about it while I was strolling downtown. There were

17 stories spreading around that some 16 or 17 people had been killed in

18 Crkvina. When I arrived in the staff, I asked Miroslav, Brko: Have you

19 heard about these people in Crkvina? And he told me: Ljubo, I heard,

20 just in passing, just like you. Now, whether it is true or not, of that

21 I'm not certain. That is all I heard about that.

22 When it happened, on what date, I don't know that either.

23 Q. Did you at any time, in view of the fact that you organised

24 funerals, did you ever get any information from the morgue, from the

25 police, about the incident in the village of Crkvina, you as the civil

Page 14631

1 defence staff?

2 A. No, never.

3 Q. Did you, while you were working to organise these funerals,

4 receive any information to the effect that there were any corpses from a

5 detention unit anywhere in Samac?

6 A. No. When it came to people who had perished in prisons, never did

7 we get any information, nor were they taken to the morgue -- no, they were

8 taken to the -- they were not taken to the morgue. Those who died on the

9 front line would be taken to the morgue, but not these people.

10 Q. Did you know a man by the name of Antesa?

11 A. I knew him very well.

12 Q. Did you hear that he had been killed during the war, and how?

13 A. I --

14 MR. WEINER: We didn't -- I'm sorry, Your Honour. We didn't get

15 the name of the person that they're talking about.

16 MR. LUKIC: Yes.

17 MR. WEINER: Could that be repeated, please?

18 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Mr. Weiner.

19 Q. [Interpretation] On page 83, line 10, I asked you whether you knew

20 of a man by the name of Antesa.

21 A. Yes. I said that I knew him very well.

22 Q. When did you hear that he had been killed?

23 A. I heard about Antesa's death here in The Hague when Stevan

24 Todorovic confessed that he had killed Antesa. I was watching television.

25 We were -- we in the house were all taken by surprise because we -- no one

Page 14632

1 of us knew who had killed him. We knew Antesa, and he was a very decent

2 person.

3 Q. Have you heard of a man by the name of -- surname of Brandic, and

4 nickname Dikan? Does it mean anything to you?

5 A. No. No, I haven't.

6 Q. Do you know that there were any calls for the Croats and Muslims

7 to report in front of the memorial centre? When was this? Can you give

8 us any more specific details about this event?

9 A. That day I went about -- I went to my house to see to something,

10 and when I was returning to the civil defence staff, I saw large numbers

11 of people going home from the memorial centre. I asked one of them what

12 had happened, what was -- what had been -- what it had been about because

13 I didn't know, and he told me they had called us to come to the memorial

14 centre to agree for us to be given weapons, and none of the leaders came

15 to the memorial centre to talk to us.

16 The next day when I came there, I heard that people had fled Samac

17 en masse the previous night. My son-in-law, the husband of my daughter,

18 was among those who had fled that night. And this is what I know about

19 that incident, and I know nothing more about it.

20 Q. Do you perhaps recall how was it that these people fled, in which

21 way?

22 A. From what I heard from other people, the majority had fled across

23 the Sava River, and there were others who availed themselves of different

24 connections and used different vehicles to leave, to depart for Serbia,

25 one of which was my son-in-law.

Page 14633

1 Q. So did your son-in-law leave in a vehicle or did he swim across?

2 A. My son-in-law left in a vehicle. He and his brother. And this is

3 what I learned much later, after quite a few days had elapsed. That he

4 and his brother left in a vehicle.

5 Q. Do you have information as to whether any families were taken to

6 the village of Zasavica? Do you have any knowledge of that?

7 A. As to the taking of families, I have -- don't know anything about

8 that. But I do know that work detail -- from the work detail, we would

9 ask for people from the work detail to go there when pigs were brought

10 there from Odzak municipality to Zasavica, someone had to tend to these

11 pigs, to feed them. So we asked for several people to go there to do

12 that, and that's what I did. And as for families, I don't know.

13 Q. You have already mentioned in your testimony that in front of your

14 building of the centre of pensioners, these people from the work brigade,

15 work detail, who were on work duty and assigned to different jobs as part

16 of work duty assembled there. Did you hear, ever, Miroslav Tadic issue

17 any order to anyone in connection with this work detail, the people

18 assigned to work duty?

19 A. I never heard anything, and I don't know what could Miroslav Tadic

20 have ordered them, when we had no connection whatsoever with them. We

21 belonged to the civil defence staff, and that was the -- we were

22 responsible and reported about the work of the civil defence staff.

23 Q. Tell me: Do you know who was your superior as the civil defence

24 staff? Who did you answer to for your work?

25 A. We answered to the secretariat of National Defence for our work.

Page 14634

1 Q. And who headed this secretariat? Do you know?

2 A. Initially, until a certain month, I don't know which, it was Miso

3 Bogdanovic. And after Miso, it was headed by Bozo Ninkovic.

4 Q. Do you know that this civil defence staff was later reorganised to

5 also incorporate some people in keeping with certain legal obligations?

6 A. Yes, I know that. This was sometime in the beginning of 1993,

7 when I learned that this staff had been extended to include people who

8 were specialists by special trades, for instance, firefighters,

9 electricians, construction workers, plumbers. This is what I know.

10 Q. Tell me: Until what time were you with the civil defence staff?

11 A. Until sometime -- sometime until July or August 1993.

12 Q. Do you know whether Miroslav Tadic, while he was with the staff in

13 1993, how often did he go to these exchanges and these negotiations, how

14 often did he go outside Samac for that purpose? Were you able to

15 establish that?

16 A. Miroslav Tadic mostly worked on those jobs, the jobs which I've

17 been describing previously, a while ago, we did ourselves. Everyone had a

18 specific task assigned to him, and Miroslav Tadic also had to do jobs

19 associated with the Executive Board, with the Crisis Staff, with the

20 exchange, together with Velimir Maslic, and this took a lot of his time.

21 As far as I know, we sat together. He would have to go for various

22 consultations and negotiations, for a single exchange, up to four or five

23 times, return, go back, and come -- renegotiate again, and so on and so

24 forth. This is what I know.

25 Q. Did the civil defence staff have any obligations in connection

Page 14635

1 with the refugees? Do you know anything about that?

2 A. Our work -- it was not our duty to accommodate the refugees. We

3 had nothing to do whatsoever with the accommodations of refugees who had

4 come to the area of Samac. Our task was, when we were told that a family

5 had to move into a building which was not suitable for living because of

6 the faulty water installations, electric wiring or the doors or windows,

7 we had to repair those and inform them that the family of refugees could

8 be moved into the flat.

9 Q. Tell me: Do you remember any episodes regarding any person who

10 came asking for wood? Do you remember anything like that?

11 A. This is something I vividly remember. One morning in January, and

12 it was really harsh winter, it was bitterly cold, the work detail who was

13 supposed to go out and work, as part of work duty, and we were sitting in

14 the office having coffee. Miroslav Tadic looked out the window, and there

15 was an old lady, Nena, which is the designation for an old Muslim lady,

16 a tiny, old woman, was standing there. And Veljko told me: Go and ask

17 Nena, this old Muslim lady, to come up and to be -- by the fire to be --

18 find some warmth in our office. And I went up and I said: Nena, are you

19 cold. And she said yes, I am. So I said get her some coffee. So she had

20 some coffee. What are you doing outside so early in the morning? You are

21 not going on work duty. She said: No, I'm not, but I've come here

22 because I have no wood to use for my fire. So I come to ask these people

23 who are going out to work to get me some wood. Miroslav then told me:

24 Ljubo, please find someone. Let him take the wheelbarrow from our shed

25 and take the wood that we are using for our fires to her house so that she

Page 14636

1 can use them in her house. And she was so surprised, she used the Muslim

2 expression Maniarabi and she said: I heard you were a good man, that you

3 would help anyone.

4 And later, however, she got into the habit, and whenever she ran

5 out of firewood, she would come back for more. And we gave her. And this

6 is something which was really impressive. It is really difficult to see

7 an old person in such a difficult situation, going to all that trouble to

8 get some wood.

9 Q. To whom did she say that: You are such a good man?

10 A. She said that to Miroslav Tadic, to Brko. She said: I had heard

11 that you were a good man.

12 Q. Before the final set of questions, perhaps we could take a look at

13 two other documents: PDB 59/3 is the first one.

14 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I have a correction. Page 88, line

15 16. It's Veljko told me, and indeed the witness said Brko told you. It

16 wasn't Tadic who told you to go and get that woman and for the wood to be

17 given her?

18 A. Tadic told me: Yes, go get this Nena, this old Muslim lady come

19 up and warm herself by the fire and let her be given wood.

20 Q. Was it Tadic who told you that she should be given wood?

21 A. Tadic told me: Yes, Ljubo, get a man to find the wheelbarrow and

22 take wood from our shed.

23 Q. You've said all that.

24 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] So this is a correction on page 87,

25 line 16, to that effect.

Page 14637

1 Q. Would you please take a look at this document. The document is

2 self-explanatory. You have already referred to this. We saw that on the

3 list, the name of Ismet Hurtic. What is he by ethnicity?

4 A. Ismet Hurtic is a Muslim.

5 Q. We can see from this document that --

6 A. He was engaged in the Red Cross and the civil defence staff to

7 perform services for these two with his own private vehicle. And this was

8 signed by the president of the Red Cross and the commander of the civil

9 defence staff. This is a certificate which he used in order to freely

10 move in the territory of Samac municipality. Because he drove women from

11 Samac to the villages to milk the cows there every morning, and without

12 such a permit, such a certificate, he would not have been able to

13 circulate around the area.

14 Q. Thank you.

15 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we be assigned a number for this

16 document?

17 THE REGISTRAR: It will be Exhibit D112/3 and ter for the B/C/S.

18 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could the witness please be shown

19 document PDB 26/3.

20 Q. We already talked about problems related to glazing. Who wrote

21 this document? Can you recognise it?

22 A. I did, personally.

23 Q. Could you go to Uniglas yourself and take some glass, or did you

24 need a permit for that?

25 A. If a permit were not needed, I would not have put it down in

Page 14638

1 writing. We could not do this on our own. It was the Executive Board

2 that decided on this.

3 Q. Was this frequent procedure, regular procedure, that you addressed

4 the Executive Board for approval, for permission for anything that may be

5 needed by your staff?

6 A. For everything that the Red Cross could not provide for these

7 general needs. That is what we had to ask the Executive Board for, so

8 that they take care of such matters, if possible, to intervene for the

9 staff.

10 Q. And you could address the Red Cross directly?

11 A. Directly. As regards nylon, they received aid. They got nylon,

12 and there was no problem. We would just tell Veljo we need such-and-such

13 an amount of nylon. We never addressed them in writing.

14 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we please get an exhibit number

15 for this document as well.

16 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Excuse me, Mr. Lukic. I wonder whether

17 Mr. Vukovic knows who this Golf car belonged to, if he does.

18 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for Mr. Lukic, please.

19 MR. LUKIC:

20 Q. You've understood Judge Williams's question. Do you know about

21 this?

22 A. I'm looking at this. I wrote this, and I don't know whose Golf

23 was involved. I wrote it at that moment, but believe me, right now I

24 simply don't know.

25 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Thank you very much.

Page 14639

1 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] That's also what I asked the witness

2 during my preparations with him. [In English] We don't need this document

3 anymore.

4 Q. [Interpretation] We are getting close to the end now. I'm going

5 to put a few questions now regarding my client?

6 JUDGE MUMBA: Could we have the number?

7 MR. LUKIC: Sorry.

8 THE REGISTRAR: It will be Exhibit D113/3 and ter. Thank you.

9 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

10 Q. From your testimony, I got the impression, and I believe that this

11 may be the impression of the Trial Chamber as well, that you knew Miroslav

12 Tadic well before the war and during the war. First I'm going to ask you

13 whether, during your cooperation with Miroslav Tadic, during your --

14 during the war, when you worked together at the civilian protection staff,

15 did you personally hear Miroslav Tadic saying or showing with any gesture

16 any kind of intolerance towards non-Serbs, towards members of other ethnic

17 groups, you personally? Did you ever see or feel any such thing?

18 A. I've known Miroslav Tadic for over 30 years now. Truth to tell,

19 before he opened the AS cafe, I saw him very little, but I hear that while

20 he was a teacher at school, that he was a very nice man and that the

21 pupils and their parents had a high regard for him. When I started coming

22 to his cafe and when I started spending time there, then I saw what kind

23 of attitude Miroslav Tadic has towards people, irrespective of ethnicity.

24 For him, a man is a real man, irrespective of ethnicity. That's the way

25 he proved himself to be during the war too. I never heard a single word,

Page 14640

1 let alone see him do anything against anyone, anyone who was of a

2 different ethnicity. On the contrary; even now I think 90 per cent of the

3 population of Samac has a very good opinion of Miroslav Tadic. And I

4 think that if a man has 90 per cent of positive things in him and 10 per

5 cent of things that are not positive, that is a remarkable thing, and that

6 is the way I know Miroslav Tadic, and I've been in Samac for quite some

7 time now.

8 Q. You've already told me quite a bit, but I have two specific

9 questions to put to you as well. Did you notice that when talking among

10 Serbs, he showed any kind of intolerance towards other ethnic groups? Not

11 when addressing members of other ethnic groups, but when he talked to and

12 among members of his own people, did he ever say anything bad about

13 members of other ethnic groups?

14 A. Never. I had the opportunity of sitting in his own home, and I

15 watched card games, and there were members of different ethnic groups who

16 were present there: Serbs, Croats, Muslims. I never heard any such

17 thing.

18 Q. When you worked at the civilian protection staff, did you notice

19 that Miroslav Tadic, when he did his work in relation to that staff, in

20 relation to civilian protection, did he use a different yardstick? Did he

21 look at members of his own people in one way and did he look at other

22 peoples in another way?

23 A. I said that I never noticed any such thing, and I had the

24 opportunity of seeing when -- when people who were of other ethnic groups,

25 Muslims or Croats, would drop by at his cafe, and he would treat them to a

Page 14641

1 drink or two, and when they couldn't pay, he said that was fine. I saw

2 that several times, and I can even give you the names of the person to

3 whom he said that they didn't have to pay.

4 Q. That won't be necessary. And do you know about him giving any

5 kind of financial assistance to non-Serbs during the war?

6 A. I don't really know about that.

7 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour. I've finished with my

8 examination-in-chief.

9 JUDGE MUMBA: Cross-examination? I'm sorry. Any other counsel

10 wishing to ask? I see none.

11 Yes, Mr. Pisarevic.

12 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. I'm going to

13 put a few questions to the witness.

14 Cross-examined by Mr. Pisarevic:

15 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Vukovic, during your testimony you mentioned

16 that you know many things related to the establishment of the 4th

17 Detachment. You know who the commander was, also you know who was the

18 deputy commander. You said that the commander of the 4th Detachment was

19 Mr. Antic, Radovan, and his deputy was Mr. Jovo Savic. Do you have any

20 knowledge as to whether Mr. Simo Zaric was a member of the detachment, and

21 do you know which position he had within the detachment?

22 MR. WEINER: Your Honour, I would just object to the question. I

23 have no problem as to Simo Zaric's role in the 4th commandment -- the 4th

24 Detachment. It's been a long day.

25 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.

Page 14642

1 MR. WEINER: The problem I have is the statement here that you

2 mentioned that you know many things related to the establishment of the

3 4th Detachment. If I recall the testimony from this morning, he indicated

4 that at first he didn't know who the commander of the 4th Detachment was

5 and the deputy. He learned later. So I think that's a

6 mischaracterisation of the testimony. However, the rest of it, I have no

7 problem as to Simo Zaric's role.

8 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. That was his evidence.

9 Proceed, Mr. Pisarevic.

10 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] Well, Your Honours, if I remember

11 correctly, the man testified here, confirmed here, that he knew. He

12 didn't know at first.

13 Q. When did you find out when the 4th Detachment was established?

14 A. I don't know the date, but I know that my son was a member of the

15 4th Detachment. Now, what month this was, what date it was when he

16 received weapons, is something I don't know. I don't know the moment when

17 it was established.

18 Q. All right.

19 A. But I know it existed, and I know that Simo Zaric was a member.

20 Q. Tell me: When did you find out that the commander of the 4th

21 Detachment was Radovan Antic?

22 A. I found out that Radovan Antic was commander of the 4th Detachment

23 sometime just before the war broke out.

24 Q. Since you testified here that you were at the AS cafe often, were

25 you in a position to pass by the Sit company?

Page 14643

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Is this company, Sit, near the AS cafe/bar?

3 A. This company is across the street, across the street from the AS

4 cafe.

5 Q. Did you notice anything? Did you notice any signs on this

6 company, some signs that may be unusual, that are usually not put on a

7 company building or in front of it, in the period from the beginning of

8 1992 until the war broke out, that is to say, until the 16th or 17th of

9 April, 1992?

10 A. I didn't. There weren't any signs or inscriptions.

11 Q. Did you see, in front of the Sit company, a Yugoslav flag or the

12 flag of Bosnia-Herzegovina?

13 A. You mean before the war broke out or later?

14 Q. I'll explain. I said that all these questions pertained to the

15 period --

16 A. Before the war broke out, I did not see it; and afterwards I did.

17 Q. You also did not give me an answer to the following: Did you know

18 what role Simo Zaric had in the 4th Detachment? If you know, tell us, and

19 if you don't know, tell us you don't know.

20 A. What I heard -- I mean, I never asked Simo himself what position

21 he held, but I heard that he was in charge of morale in the 4th

22 Detachment, and I heard on the radio when he sat at meetings, when there

23 were these party meetings. I heard his speeches, his participation in the

24 discussion. As for other things related to Simo, I don't know.

25 Q. Can you say when this happened, when you heard his speeches over

Page 14644

1 Radio Bosanski Samac, his participation in discussions? Was that before

2 the war conflict broke out or --

3 A. As far as I can remember, it was perhaps 20 days or even a month

4 before the conflict broke out in Samac. There was a meeting in Samac

5 where all of these party people, party representatives, were, and then

6 Simo spoke very well. He spoke. He simply beseeched them to reach an

7 agreement so that there would not be a conflict between the different

8 ethnic groups.

9 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I think that it is

10 time for us to adjourn for the day and continue tomorrow.

11 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. We will adjourn and continue tomorrow.

12 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.46 p.m.,

13 to be reconvened on Friday, the 24th day of

14 January 2003, at 9:00 a.m.

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