Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 15336

1 Tuesday, 18 February 2003

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 9.03 a.m.

5 JUDGE MUMBA: Please call the case.

6 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning. Case number IT-95-9-T, the

7 Prosecutor versus Blagoje Simic, Miroslav Tadic and Simo Zaric.

8 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Lukic, you're continuing.

9 WITNESS: MIROSLAV TADIC [Resumed]

10 [Witness answered through interpreter]

11 Examined by Mr. Lukic: [Continued]

12 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours.

13 Q. Good morning, Mr. Tadic. We will continue. We spoke about the

14 first exchange at Zasavica and my final question is this: Given that in

15 your interview to the OTP on page 71, you mentioned that you learned later

16 on that Croats refused to release ten Serbs who had also been brought to

17 Zasavica. When was it that you heard about that, that they were not able

18 to cross over in that exchange, they were not allowed to do that?

19 A. The first knowledge was gained on that very day when we saw that a

20 fewer number of people came than was initially planned. However, we were

21 not quite sure what was behind this. I learned of this later with the

22 next exchange on the 4th of July, when the people who were returned on the

23 first occasion came, and then they told us that they were at the exchange

24 site but that due to some reasons, they were returned, and at the time

25 they didn't know why they were returned.

Page 15337

1 Q. Following that exchange, did you continue negotiations regarding

2 the ensuing exchanges? Where did you go for negotiations and whom did you

3 negotiate with?

4 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours could we move into

5 private session before the witness gives his answer?

6 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.

7 [Private session]

8 [redacted]

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21 [Open session]

22 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

23 Q. My question was: Did you continue negotiating and where were

24 these negotiations conducted and what was the purpose of them?

25 A. After the 25th or 26th of May, we learned from the people who were

Page 15338

1 exchanged then a lot of new facts that were important, and we wanted to

2 continue with our negotiations in order to have some more activity of that

3 nature. Mr. Mikic, a few days later, told me that another man would come

4 who would talk to me, and that was this very gentleman that we have

5 mentioned. We continued our negotiations concerning the upcoming

6 exchange. At the time I did not know the gentleman, so it was a bit

7 tense, the situation was a bit tense. There was a bit of mistrust there.

8 However, we had no other option. We had to talk.

9 Q. Where were these talks conducted?

10 A. The talks were still conducted through the communication centre so

11 we had no direct contact except the contact through communication centre.

12 Q. We have heard Mr. Ninkovic and Mr. Maslic testify about the

13 communication centre. Let us just point out for the Trial Chamber that

14 this communication centre was linked throughout the region with several

15 other centres and that was how it was before the war; is that right?

16 A. Yes. Mr. Ninkovic spoke about this and he is more informed than

17 anyone else and he said that before the war, this communication centre was

18 used to establish contact between various municipalities in our region.

19 This region is called the Doboj region. I don't want to enumerate these

20 municipalities it's already been done.

21 Q. The official name of that centre was the centre for early warning

22 and reporting is that what it was called?

23 A. Yes, I think that's what Mr. Ninkovic said.

24 Q. Yes. But we will refer to as the communication centre because

25 that is how it is generally known.

Page 15339

1 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, could the witness be

2 shown document PDB 141? That's how it is internally marked, 141/ter.

3 That's the last document that was delivered in this particular set of

4 documents. The witness will speak of this document. He knows quite a lot

5 about it.

6 Your Honours, you have the original document, as it was drafted,

7 then there is a version in B/C/S and the translation into English. I saw

8 several errors in the B/C/S version that were later reflected in the

9 English version as well. And I would like now to go with the witness over

10 five reports. I believe this document to be very important, not only for

11 Mr. Tadic's Defence but also in order to clearly show what the situation

12 was like in Samac. What you can see, Your Honours, is that up until the

13 17th of April, there are only certain hours given in certain reports, and

14 after the first several pages, you will see that the dates are missing and

15 then after the month of June, the reports were made -- the entries were

16 made on a daily basis and in order to cover this quickly, Mr. Tadic, I

17 will read this out to you and you can just confirm to me whether it's

18 correct or not.

19 Q. The first part I would like to read out is on the English version,

20 page 7, paragraph 4. And it begins with the 30th of June. The 30th of

21 June, if you've found that entry, then I would start reading out --

22 JUDGE MUMBA: Which document? We can't find the -- page 7, we

23 can't find 30th of June.

24 MR. DI FAZIO: I can't find it either, if it's --

25 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] The English version.

Page 15340

1 THE INTERPRETER: Excuse me, the French booth does not have the

2 text.

3 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] [Microphone not activated]

4 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Lukic the French booth say they don't have the

5 document.

6 THE INTERPRETER: Neither does the English booth, Your Honour.

7 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] English version at the end, page 7 is

8 marked, page 7 of the English version.

9 MR. PANTELIC: Also, Your Honour, we have a problem with the ELMO.

10 We don't receive any picture here. So in the meantime maybe we could have

11 assistance of the technical booth.

12 JUDGE LINDHOLM: Mr. Lukic, I have a question because there are no

13 number attached, do you mean this thick document, what is a handwritten

14 first part and then it's -- there is a B/C/S version and an English

15 version and it's the document dated on the 6th of December, 1992? Is that

16 the document we are talking about?

17 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Yes, you're quite right. In the

18 original B/C/S version, which is handwritten, you will see that the 6

19 December of 1992 is written in a handwriting, in the upper corner, but the

20 date mentioned is the 26th of November, and the witness will tell us about

21 that. That is the document, you're quite right.

22 JUDGE LINDHOLM: If I may continue, Your Honour, on page 7 we

23 can't find what you was -- you were pointing to. There is no paragraph 4.

24 There is three dates, 6 of February, 7th of February and 10th of February

25 and then no dates at all except for, yeah, they are 12th of February, 13th

Page 15341

1 of February and 14th of February.

2 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, please take a look at

3 page 7 of the English version. Do you have an English version marked on

4 page 7? Do you have that?

5 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.

6 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] On that page, or rather -- I'm sorry,

7 page 4, page 4, paragraph 3, [In English] [Microphone not activated] 30

8 June. [Interpretation] On the 30th of June.

9 JUDGE LINDHOLM: No, there is nothing such.

10 JUDGE MUMBA: Could we have the usher's assistance, maybe the

11 usher should show you the document we have. Mr. Lukic can look at it and

12 see whether that's the correct document.

13 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Since the transcript was done later

14 on, the pages in your versions are differently marked. Let us leave aside

15 this document and during the break, I will compare the pages and then we

16 can analyse this document after the break. It will be easier for

17 everybody to follow. In the meantime we can cover other issues.

18 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.

19 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I have the initial translation and

20 this is how I did my marking but during the break I will get everything

21 ready.

22 Q. Mr. Tadic, we will come back to this document after the break.

23 Tell us, please: What did you negotiate about with the opposite side?

24 What was the procedure like and what did you do after the negotiations in

25 order to carry out an exchange successfully?

Page 15342

1 A. First of all, we talked about the events which took place on the

2 25th of May so we talked about the first exchange, and jointly we

3 concluded that as far as the technical matters were concerned, that

4 exchange was not a great success. There were problems with crossing over

5 at the exchange site. The river itself, the River Bosna, presented quite

6 a problem. At the time the water level was quite high, and the terrain on

7 the opposite side was quite muddy so the access was not an easy one.

8 Another problem was that at the time we found ourselves right between two

9 defence lines, if I can call them that way, behind our back were the

10 soldiers of the Army of Republika Srpska, whereas behind the back of the

11 people on the other side were the soldiers of the Croatian Defence

12 Council. So a minor incident, not a deliberate one, could have put both

13 sides in a very difficult situation. Therefore, we concluded that we

14 shouldn't have any other activities at that site.

15 Q. And did somebody propose something? Did somebody give an initial

16 proposal and where did you start meeting after that?

17 A. After some time, given that the opposite side had already had

18 talks with the 1st Krajina Corps, with which we had no contact whatsoever,

19 there was part of the core that was stationed in Banja Luka at the time,

20 in the Banja Luka area. So as a result of that, they already had some

21 experience with that and they used to meet in a place called Dragalic,

22 which is a gas station on the former highway between Belgrade and Zagreb,

23 some 30 kilometres from Slavonski Brod in the direction of Zagreb.

24 There was another site on the eastern part of that area, near a

25 town called Sid, the place was called Lipovac. They suggested that we

Page 15343

1 conduct the following exchange in Lipovac. At the time it was an UNPA

2 zone. That's what it was called. It was under the control of the United

3 Nations. I believe that there was a Russian battalion there in addition

4 to other forces.

5 Q. Just a minute. We will now analyse these two issues but before we

6 do that, it would be good to put a map before the witness. This was a map

7 presented during the testimony of Dr. Donia showing UNPA zones. Perhaps

8 the witness could now show us where Samac is and where these other two

9 places, Sid and Lipovac are?

10 JUDGE MUMBA: What is the document's formal exhibit number?

11 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I don't know exactly but it was

12 attached to the expert report of Dr. Donia.

13 JUDGE MUMBA: Can we just have the number from the registry,

14 please, assistance? If you can search so that we know exactly which map.

15 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I don't know exactly but it was

16 attached to the expert report. I don't know if Dr. Donia specifically

17 mentioned this. This is map number 13, showing Bosnia and Herzegovina and

18 the UNPA protected zones. I have the OTP number here. Perhaps they would

19 be able to help us, 03019614 is the number, since this is an OTP exhibit.

20 MR. DI FAZIO: That can't help us at the moment to identify it.

21 Am I right if Mr. Lukic intends to have it marked and present it as a

22 fresh new exhibit? Or if that's the case, we don't need to know what the

23 old number is.

24 JUDGE MUMBA: It was attached to the report, I'm informed, which

25 was Exhibit -- which is Exhibit P1.

Page 15344

1 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] That's right.

2 MR. DI FAZIO: I understand that Mr. Lukic intends to create now

3 an entirely new exhibit because it's going to be marked by the witness.

4 JUDGE MUMBA: It's map 13 of Exhibit P1, I think.

5 Yes, the correct information now Dr. Donia's report is P1, all the

6 maps collectively are P2. So it's part of P2. So your intention is to

7 have that clear map marked by the accused and then it will be exhibit --

8 it will be an exhibit for the Defence?

9 MR. LUKIC: Yes.

10 JUDGE MUMBA: All right.

11 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

12 Q. Mr. Tadic, if you can just roughly mark with number 1, Samac,

13 Dragalic with number 2, and Lipovac with number 3?

14 A. Since in the forthcoming testimonies, there will be mention of

15 these UNPA areas or rather places where exchanges occurred, I would like

16 to mark all the places where the exchanges took place. I think that's the

17 best approach.

18 Samac is exactly here, while the River Sava is here so I will mark

19 it with number 1.

20 Sid is approximately here, and the highway runs through this area

21 and this is where Lipovac is.

22 Q. Please mark Sid with number 2.

23 A. Number 3 is Lipovac.

24 Q. And where was Dragalic, approximately?

25 A. Here in this zone, there is the place called Nemetin which will

Page 15345

1 also going to be mentioned in relation to the exchange of the 14th of

2 August, 1992.

3 Q. So Nemetin is in Yugoslavia?

4 A. No, it was in the UNPA zone east. These areas with lines indicate

5 UNPA zones. Dragalic is on the part of the highway, roughly here. That

6 will be number 5. And in this part here, as I said here there was a

7 Russian battalion and there were Indians in Nemetin. However in Dragalic

8 which is very close, there was a battalion from Nepal. So this is the

9 eastern part of this shaded area and this is Novska which is also going to

10 be mentioned, marked with number 6. There was a Jordanian battalion.

11 Q. Speaking about these exchange locations, can you tell us where the

12 negotiations with the Muslim part took place most often and where

13 representatives from Samac took place?

14 A. There is no border line here but this is a kind of demarcation

15 line that ran through this area and this is where Sibosnica was.

16 Satorovici [phoen] was here. And this is Gradacac. And Karanovac near

17 Doboj is also a place that we are going to see on a video film. So

18 towards Tuzla was this demarcation line, and these four locations were on

19 this line that I just mentioned.

20 Q. Could you please put number 7 for all these four locations?

21 A. That means these were the locations where negotiations were

22 conducted with the Muslims of Bosnia and Herzegovina.

23 Q. As we can see where the negotiations with the Muslim side took

24 place were not under the UN protection?

25 A. There is another place where negotiations were conducted in which

Page 15346

1 I took part, and that was somewhere here near Glina. This is supposed to

2 be where Petrinja is located, and there was a Belgian battalion there.

3 This is number 8. So all these marked locations and places -- do I have

4 to go back again?

5 Q. Not necessary.

6 A. These were the locations where negotiations were conducted at the

7 time in which the commission from Samac took place. There were other,

8 many other places, but we did not have contact with these places except

9 the ones that I just marked.

10 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we have a number for this

11 exhibit, please?

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This shaded area here is called

13 Western Slavonia, where you see this place which is called Pakrac.

14 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

15 Q. The legend says that these were all protected areas so it is

16 clear.

17 Mr. Tadic, we don't have to discuss this document furthermore.

18 Can we have it marked as an exhibit?

19 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.

20 THE REGISTRAR: This will be Exhibit D153/3.

21 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

22 Q. And finally, before we proceed to the exchange of July, tell me

23 where was this exchange to be taken -- to take place in July was agreed?

24 A. I already said that we did not have any information about these

25 places before that date, and they told us that there was a possibility

Page 15347

1 that in those UNPA zones, safe contacts, either in the form of talks or in

2 the form of exchange, could be secured. We had no experience in that and

3 we couldn't come up with any better proposal so quite simply we accepted

4 this proposal. I very often say "we" and whenever I say "we" I refer to

5 the Serbian part of the negotiating team from Samac. That means either

6 myself or Veljo Maslic or possibly some messages were received by other

7 people than us and we can see that when we speak about the communication

8 centre.

9 Q. In order to eventually get to Lipovac and make the exchange there,

10 what did you have to do to make the convoy reach Lipovac?

11 A. Yes. We saw that there was this UNPA zone in the map. I didn't

12 show but maybe I should have shown to you where we had to go through in

13 order to reach Lipovac. At the time it was in this UNPA zone which was

14 particularly protected one, and it was inaccessible without the approval

15 of representatives of the United Nations. At the time, they had their

16 offices kind of offices in Belgrade. In addition, we had to go through

17 Brcko, Bijeljina and in Raca we had to cross over to another state, that

18 is Yugoslavia. We had to then go through a part of Yugoslavia which also

19 required permission. So people coming from another state who are not

20 citizens of that particular state, people coming from war-torn zone and of

21 course we needed permission to reach Sid, and also the permission from the

22 United Nations to get to Lipovac. That was really a great problem and I

23 simply went to Belgrade in order to discuss it with the Yugoslav

24 commission, how to accomplish this, because at the time Yugoslavia also

25 had its own exchange commission and I got in touch with some people there

Page 15348

1 who were involved in these matters and they explained to me that we need

2 to have all these permissions that I have just mentioned. They were very

3 forthcoming and they said they would help me in all these matters, that

4 they would get in touch with Yugoslavia and with the United Nations as

5 well, and that they would obtain these permissions for our passage. Of

6 course, that's what they did. I didn't have any contacts with the

7 representatives of Yugoslavia or with representatives of the United

8 Nations. They made a written request for the permission and we did get

9 this permission, I think sometime in late June, for us to be able to cross

10 over to Yugoslavia, pass through these parts of Yugoslavia, and eventually

11 reach the UNPA zone that I just mentioned.

12 Q. Before we proceed with the exchange itself, when you were

13 negotiating with the opposite side, and if they have any requests, what

14 did you do if those persons were in detention or were not in detention?

15 What was the procedure? Did you decide it yourself or not?

16 A. I already explained the procedure. I can only repeat it now. The

17 people who were not in detention, and wanted to leave, they applied to the

18 local Red Cross organisation, as for the people who were in detention,

19 permission was given for them by the secretariat or rather the police

20 station or MUP, as we used to call it. So the permission was issued for

21 them by MUP. Of course, those who applied with the Red Cross did not

22 necessarily mean that they would automatically get so to say a visa to

23 leave. Somebody should request them to come from the opposite side in

24 order to put them on the list. So it could have happened that somebody

25 applied but if the -- that person was not sought from the other side,

Page 15349

1 instead of people under -- a man under number 20 as opposed to the man who

2 was first on the list could have been exchanged. This process of seeking

3 went from the opposite side and that is the witness I'm referring to.

4 However, he did not know these men, these people, and he was not able to

5 put anyone in the list to cross over because he didn't know anyone. So

6 that means that somebody ought to suggest to him which particular persons

7 he should seek from our region, and accordingly, he would submit this kind

8 of list to our side and based on that list, and from the one with the

9 applications with the Red Cross already, we took the men who were sought.

10 So that means that somebody could not be -- could not apply for but could

11 have been exchanged.

12 Q. Even if the people who were not sought but who expressed their

13 desire to go and there were vacant places on the buses, what did you do?

14 A. If the number agreed was insufficient, then we would tell him that

15 we have applications from people who wished to cross over, and we would

16 dictate this list to him. Then in turn, he would contact the people on

17 the other side who were supposed to receive these people in Orasje or most

18 often in Samac and Domaljevac on this side because that's where the

19 majority of the residents of Samac were. Then they would say that they

20 knew these people and they didn't know that they didn't arrive or that

21 they expressed their desire in various ways and that is when it could

22 happen that none of those who applied went over, because nobody expressed

23 readiness to receive them and then he would tell us, "I have no facilities

24 provided for this particular person so don't bring there person over."

25 Q. Can we now move to a private session, please?

Page 15350

1 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.

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14 [Open session]

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Was this a private session because

16 of the gentleman that we just mentioned?

17 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

18 Q. Yes. Tell me what was the attitude of Mr. Todorovic towards

19 Lukac, towards Bicici and other witnesses?

20 A. He had a similar attitude towards him as towards the others. He

21 continued to spread rumours that those were very important people, in

22 order maybe to make himself look more important.

23 Q. So what kind of information did you pass on to the opposite side

24 when these persons were sought for?

25 A. I just told them what I knew. I said that there would be problems

Page 15352

1 with getting permission and that as soon as I got one I would put him on

2 so that is what I discussed with them. So regardless of what the opposite

3 side insisted on and sought some people, unless there was permission, this

4 cannot be discussed and vice versa. If we wanted to have some people from

5 the opposite side, if no permission is given, they equally could not have

6 been put on the list. So in each and every case, we need permission from

7 the organs that were conducting investigations or filed reports to the

8 courts. These were organs in charge.

9 MR. DI FAZIO: If Your Honours please, in order for to you make

10 sense of this information -- sorry, this evidence, you will have to know

11 from whom the permission was being granted. That is in Bosanski Samac.

12 Mr. Tadic has said that on one occasion, Mr. Todorovic was the person

13 granting or not granting permission. But you should know, I submit,

14 whether it was him, that is Mr. Todorovic, on all occasions, who was the

15 man responsible for granting permission for prisoners to be exchanged or

16 whether Mr. Tadic is saying it was Mr. Todorovic or other people.

17 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I believe that the witness has already

18 said that, at the beginning, but let's clarify.

19 Q. Whom did you apply regarding this? Was it just to him or to

20 somebody else? Who was supposed to give you permissions for prisoners?

21 A. I've already said that the chief of MUP was in charge of that, and

22 that was Mr. Todorovic, and he could have delegated this authority to some

23 of his associates, to inspectors, police commanders and so on. So he did

24 not have to give permission himself necessarily, but he was in charge of

25 this so to speak. If he withheld his approval, then they were not allowed

Page 15353

1 to do anything without his consent, and in this particular case, I've

2 already said that Mr. Todorovic was absent, and it was quite clear that

3 somebody else was involved in decision-making in that particular instance.

4 Q. So permissions were also requested from some other organs but we

5 will get to that later chronologically?

6 A. During those first days at the beginning, we mostly applied to SUP

7 for permissions. You will see in the documents that the opposite side

8 sought permissions from the military segment, whereas we did not have that

9 initially.

10 Q. Yesterday, when we spoke about your entering detention facilities,

11 and you told us that you never went to detention facilities except on one

12 occasion, tell us, please, when and why did you go there? I'm interested

13 in the episode with Mr. Mate Perkovic which you mentioned in your

14 interview.

15 A. On one occasion, when I had a radio contact and was talking to the

16 other side, to the opposite side, I learned that there was a man there who

17 wanted to exchange a few words with me. I didn't know the man. And he

18 told me that his name was Perkovic. I forgot his first name. And that he

19 had a brother detained in Samac, at least that was the information he had,

20 and that is Mate Perkovic, the brother is Mate Perkovic. So he asked me

21 to go and relay the message to his brother to say to him that his family

22 was fine, that there were in a safe place, somewhere in Croatia, I

23 believe, the family was his wife and children, so he just needed to know

24 that they were fine and safe, that he shouldn't worry about them, that he

25 should only worry about himself and that he should try to get on the

Page 15354

1 exchange list.

2 I went to the SUP, and since I didn't know where Mr. Perkovic was

3 kept, I asked the guard on duty to tell me where Perkovic was. He told me

4 that he was there in the SUP building. I told him that I wanted to have a

5 little talk with him and he said that he needed to check with his

6 superiors. He called somebody on the phone and then said to me, "That's

7 fine." And then he went to the SUP building area where two cells were,

8 these two cells were frequently mentioned and shown here, and he took Mato

9 Perkovic to the hallway. I'd never seen the man before. I conveyed the

10 message to him. He thanked me and went back to his cell. That was all

11 regarding my contact with Mato Perkovic. And I would like to emphasise

12 that I didn't know him from before.

13 In 2000, when I was on provisional release, I happened to be in a

14 store selling construction material, and it belongs to a witness called

15 Veselin Blagojevic. Two men came to the store to buy something. I knew

16 one of them very well, and I didn't know the other. And when we greeted

17 each other, he asked me, do you know this man? I said no. He said, this

18 is Mato Perkovic.

19 Q. Did you greet each other then?

20 A. Naturally, we did. In addition to just greeting each other, we

21 also had a little talk and he was very happy about his current situation.

22 Q. Before we get to the July exchange, let's cover several other

23 issues, chronologically. In the month of June, did you go to visit

24 Patriarch Pavle in Belgrade and if so what happened there? First, tell me

25 did you go there?

Page 15355

1 A. Yes, I did. I went to see his holiness.

2 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we go into private session because

3 we will be mentioning a protected witness.

4 JUDGE MUMBA: Very well.

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5 [redacted]

6 [redacted]

7 [redacted]

8 [redacted]

9 [redacted]

10 [redacted]

11 [Open session]

12 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

13 Q. Now we will discuss the July exchange.

14 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could the witness be shown the

15 following documents together, D12/3, D8/3, D9/3, D71/3, D72/3 and D30/3

16 ID? The last document is D30/4 ID.

17 Q. While the documents are being prepared, tell us, please, were

18 there any problems in preparation for that exchange, Lipovac, 4th and 5th

19 July of 1992? How was the final number for the exchange arrived at?

20 A. I remember that well because that was practically the first

21 exchange and I remember all of the details well. It was agreed that at

22 around that time, at least the intention was to have that organised as the

23 largest exchange that we ever had with the opposite side. A total of 220

24 people crossed over from both sides. It was a combination of people,

25 military -- fit for military service, the elderly, women and children, on

Page 15359

1 both sides. That was the category of people exchanged. So it was a

2 combination that we agreed upon in our talks.

3 I assumed that problems would arise in connection with certain

4 persons that were supposed to be exchanged, even one witness said here

5 that one well-intentioned policeman had told him to quickly board the bus

6 and not to peek through the window, which was a sign that somebody was

7 displeased at his leaving. So he was told since he was on the list he

8 should get on the bus quickly and to hide from being seen by other

9 people. Initially, we had problems with [redacted].

10 Q. Who created these problems?

11 A. Is this a closed or open session?

12 Q. We have to move back again to private session. Just to strike out

13 the name.

14 [Private session]

15 [redacted]

16 [redacted]

17 [redacted]

18 [redacted]

19 [redacted]

20 [redacted]

21 [redacted]

22 [redacted]

23 [redacted]

24 [redacted]

25 [redacted]

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Page 15361

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2 [redacted]

3 [redacted]

4 [redacted]

5 [redacted]

6 [redacted]

7 [redacted]

8 [redacted]

9 [redacted]

10 [redacted]

11 [redacted]

12 [redacted]

13 [Open session]

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Since we were late, and I drove my

15 own passenger car, I told them that I will go a little bit forward because

16 my car was faster than the bus in the columns, in order for me to get

17 there in time to advise that we were running late and to make sure that

18 the exchange would take place. I arrived to the place where the Russian

19 battalion was stationed. They were notified about our arrival. I told

20 them that we were running late but they said that they couldn't do

21 anything because they had no contacts from -- with the opposite side, that

22 we had to wait for the police, the UN police to arrive, and since they had

23 communications with them, they called them, the UN police arrived, in fact

24 two policemen came, one of them was a Swede and the other one was an

25 Irishman. We waited there, and I acted as an interpreter as well, and we

Page 15362

1 waited for the buses to arrive for perhaps another hour after I had

2 arrived. So the buses were really -- were pretty much delayed. All the

3 other operations and activities were now taken over by the policemen

4 because they were in contact with the side where Croats were, and they

5 brought some associates of there from Vinkovci and they told us that the

6 other side had been waiting for us since we didn't appear they went back.

7 Then this man told them to go and meet the column, to bring those people

8 back, and if the exchange was impossible to happen on that same evening,

9 that it should happen the following day. So thanks to the UN policemen,

10 it was agreed that the exchange would take place the following day.

11 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

12 Q. Just a few more details relating to this exchange. At the very

13 line of exchange, did persons had to declare their view? You have a list

14 in front of you and can you tell us whether the identical categories of

15 people who cross over on the first occasion --

16 A. Allow me to say one more sentence about this. That night we had

17 to spend outdoors because this parking lot near the motel was closed at

18 the time, and when I arrived it was already dark. I approached these

19 people, I told them what the situation was, that they should organise

20 themselves somehow, and to have women and children stay in buses and that

21 men should endure this night. We who had cars spent the night on this

22 parking lot until the next morning, just as everybody else did.

23 Q. Can you please comment on -- because you said that a certain

24 number of men fit for military service, a certain number of elderly men,

25 women and children were agreed. Do these numbers correspond? Are they

Page 15363

1 identical?

2 A. It is identical, but it happened that in this list, that has kind

3 of marked D12/3, I don't know if it is its -- no, I apologise. I'm

4 looking at another list. That has number 1 in the corner, and there is a

5 list of women --

6 Q. We are talking about the document D8/3 ter, beginning with the

7 woman's name?

8 A. Yes, we have names of children, specified here, just Milka Stanic

9 and children. It didn't say specifically whether there were two children

10 or more than two children. For example, under number 6, you have Stana

11 Dragojlovic and a child. In this case, it's obvious that there was one

12 child. So if you presume that whenever you have children, there were two

13 children, it turns out that there were more than 40 children involved. And

14 this number was a little bit disputable because apparently there were more

15 children. Amongst Serbs who crossed over to our side. Otherwise,

16 everything is exactly as it had been agreed.

17 Q. Are you familiar with all these six lists?

18 A. Yes. I am. And I believe that I had sent these lists to

19 Mrs. Marija Velikonja in 1996.

20 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, on behalf of Mr. Zaric's

21 counsel, can we ask to have an exhibit number for document D30/4 ID

22 because the remaining documents have already been tendered as exhibits.

23 JUDGE MUMBA: Any objection?

24 MR. DI FAZIO: I apologise for that delay. No objections, if Your

25 Honours please.

Page 15364

1 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Can we have the number?

2 THE REGISTRAR: It will be Exhibit D30/4. And ter for the B/C/S.

3 Thank you.

4 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you.

5 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] D71/3 and D72/3 have the same number

6 but I think we have submitted translations of these documents. All right.

7 We shall not waste the Chamber's time now.

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Can I make a comment regarding a few

9 names here?

10 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

11 Q. Yes. We just have to check whether we are in closed session.

12 A. We don't need private session for this and I'm referring to the

13 list, number 3, which begins with the name Kosta, father's name Ljubomir

14 Arsenic.

15 MR. DI FAZIO: Your Honour could we be precisely clear about what

16 exhibit we have in front of the witness, what exhibit we are talking

17 about? Thank you.

18 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] The witness is talking now about the

19 document D9/3.

20 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, you can continue.

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Since yesterday, I mentioned

22 something about this, about these ordinal numbers, 27, 28 and 29. These

23 are exactly the names of my uncles. You can see one was born -- two were

24 born in 1915 and one was born in 1929, and that was particularly the

25 persons who did not apply for the first exchange out of fear because they

Page 15365

1 didn't know what the outcome of the exchange was going to be. So because

2 they were afraid, they remained another two months in detention although

3 they were given priority because much younger people applied than those in

4 this list. However, all these elderly people had bad experience with

5 these events and they were reluctant to apply because of fear and later,

6 they were a little bit upset for having been made to wait another two

7 months because those were old men, as I said, two of them were born in

8 1915 and one of them was born in 1929.

9 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

10 Q. Thank you. Can we go -- move to private session just for a couple

11 of moments because we are going to mention a protected witness?

12 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.

13 [Private session]

14 [redacted]

15 [redacted]

16 [redacted]

17 [redacted]

18 [redacted]

19 [redacted]

20 [redacted]

21 [redacted]

22 [redacted]

23 [redacted]

24 [redacted]

25 [redacted]

Page 15366

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Page 15367

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7 [redacted]

8 [redacted]

9 [Open session]

10 JUDGE LINDHOLM: Mr. Lukic, I have a question. Page 31, now it

11 disappeared, but it was lines I think 4, 5 and 6, doesn't make any sense

12 to me. What did the witness intend to tell us?

13 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] In order not to go back to private

14 session, when the witness told you, "I don't mind having been beaten but I

15 mind having been beaten by Todorovic" that was the comment you made, can

16 you please exchange to the Trial Chamber what did you have in mind? What

17 did this witness actually say?

18 A. If that's what it was on that page, I said there that the witness,

19 this witness, told me that he didn't particularly mind being in a state he

20 was in and he was in a bad state. We had heard here during testimony that

21 he had been beaten by Mr. Todorovic as well, but since he was an

22 experienced policeman, he knew quite a lot about the police, he told me

23 that he minded the fact that the head of SUP descended so low as to beat

24 him. That was what he minded. He said that the head of SUP would have a

25 lot of ways in getting him in a state he was without affecting himself.

Page 15368

1 So you can conclude what he meant by this.

2 JUDGE LINDHOLM: Thank you.

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's like when at the SUP station,

4 the head of SUP would say to his subordinates, "Don't beat him" and then

5 wink at the same time. That's what he meant.

6 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we now have a break, Your Honours?

7 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. We will continue at 11.00.

8 --- Recess taken at 10.30 a.m.

9 --- On resuming at 11.03 a.m.

10 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Lukic.

11 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

12 Q. Mr. Tadic, just one more question concerning the July exchange.

13 Did something happen when you got in buses to Samac with people who had

14 been exchanged and those who refused to cross over?

15 A. After spending the night in Sid, we completed the exchange, then

16 quite early at that. We returned to Samac, and at the Tekstilac kitchen,

17 a meal was prepared for those who had come from the other side. There

18 were quite a lot of people there waiting. You can imagine what it looks

19 like when some 220 to 230 people come. You can imagine the amount of

20 people waiting to greet them and to see them. So the -- when the meal was

21 already at its end, a shelling of Samac started. Several shells landed in

22 the vicinity of the kitchen, with one of the shells hitting the building

23 itself on the left side. However, there were no casualties, and people

24 simply dispersed, running away from the area. Several people were wounded

25 but there were no fatalities.

Page 15369

1 Q. Could we now take a look at the notebook of the communication

2 centre?

3 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could the witness please be shown

4 document PDB 141/3? The problem was that we had two translations,

5 initially I didn't think that it was necessary to translate pages

6 pertaining to the period before the 17th of April, because I didn't think

7 that anything there was relevant for this case, but there are other

8 important things.

9 Q. The first part I would like to read out is on page 17 of the

10 English version. It's the third paragraph. The date is the 30th of June,

11 1992. At 900 hours. That's how that sentence begins. And if you have

12 found this, I would like to read it out to Mr. Tadic now. Mr. Tadic,

13 could you please follow what I'm reading and then comment on it? There is

14 a word in the original which has not been translated, so I will read it

15 all out. "On the 30th of June, 1992, at 0900 hours, at conversation with

16 Domaljevac was conducted concerning the exchange. Bozanovic was read out

17 a list of people sought by Orasje. Conversation scheduled for 1100 hours

18 on the same day. Conversation with [redacted]from Odzak was scheduled for

19 1400 hours. Conversation with [redacted]took place concerning the

20 exchange and a new meeting was scheduled during the day, once [redacted]

21 calls at 2100 hours. Bozanovic conveyed the message to Orasje concerning

22 the exchange. Orasje ready for exchange, providing that the three

23 persons -- providing that the three persons, Tadic wrote down are found.

24 New meeting scheduled for the following day, the 1st of July, 1992, at

25 0900 hours with Domaljevac." That's at page 14, Mr. Tadic. You will see

Page 15370

1 pagination in the upper corner.

2 Can you tell us, please, as far as I can tell, this coincides with

3 the talks that took place concerning the July exchange. Did you talk to

4 Bozanovic and [redacted]concerning that exchange around that time?

5 A. Mr. Marko Bozanovic has been mentioned here in several contexts,

6 so to speak, and one of the contexts was his involvement in exchanges

7 which took place in 1992 and 1993. Since we also had contact with

8 Domaljevac, but that contact was not of the same nature, as the other one

9 from the communication centre, technically it was arranged in a different

10 manner, I didn't really pay attention to that. But at any rate, we were

11 able to establish contact with Marko Bozanovic. I had several

12 conversations with him and the one mentioned here is probably one of them.

13 Q. I would like to ask you to turn to page 16 of the B/C/S version

14 and I suggest that the Trial Chamber turn to page 20, paragraph 4, the

15 29th of July. That is the date that I will turn to now. On the 29th of

16 July, 1992, talked with [redacted]concerning the exchange. Certain

17 difficulties arose because an exchange commission had been set up on

18 [redacted] side, which is making further work more difficult, as he has

19 less independence in decision-making now. They will meet again tomorrow

20 on the 30th of July, 1992, same time as before.

21 Can we comment on the following, please?

22 A. I failed to find that passage. What date was it, did you say?

23 Q. Just listen to what I'm reading, the 29th of July, the 16th page,

24 now listen to my question. On the Bosnian side, Grujicic Milutin is

25 mentioned, a man from Nova Gradiska. I'm interested in this man, Milutin

Page 15371

1 Grujicic?

2 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Lukic, to be fair to Mr. Tadic can the usher get

3 the document for him and then you show him which paragraph so that he can

4 follow. I mean if he has to answer questions he must follow the passage

5 you are referring to. The B/C/S version, show him the paragraph.

6 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Mr. Tadic has the original B/C/S

7 version.

8 Q. Mr. Tadic, 29th of July, 1992, page 16. Page 16 bottom of the

9 page.

10 A. I can see that. I've found it.

11 Q. Perhaps it would be easier if you had a transcript in front of

12 you.

13 A. Since I sat on that chair and I wanted to see what was going on

14 here, I'm trying now to put it on the ELMO so that my fellow accused can

15 see it.

16 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we move into private session,

17 Your Honours?

18 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.

19 MR. PANTELIC: If I may be of assistance, Mr. Usher can you find

20 on that version 29th of July because now we have 29th of August, so just

21 one month before and we shall resolve the problem.

22 [Private session]

23 [redacted]

24 [redacted]

25 [redacted]

Page 15372

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Page 15378

1 [redacted]

2 [redacted]

3 [redacted]

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5 [redacted]

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7 [redacted]

8 [redacted]

9 [redacted]

10 [redacted]

11 [redacted]

12 [redacted]

13 [Open session]

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. Susak was wounded and of course,

15 he was taken prisoner, because of complications to do with his wound, he

16 was transferred for treatment to Belgrade, to the military medical

17 academy. He was taken prisoner in late June. So throughout July, and

18 part of August, he was undergoing treatment in Belgrade, in the

19 institution I have mentioned. After this, when he was much better, he was

20 transferred to the military clinic in Bijeljina, and that's where he was

21 when we discussed him. Although we had approval, however, from high

22 authorities, in this case military authorities, Mr. Todorovic didn't want

23 to organise his transport from Bijeljina to Samac. On several occasions,

24 I asked him to bring him to Samac so that we could organise the exchange.

25 The two exchanges that were to take place before this date in September

Page 15379

1 were not held precisely because this gentleman from Bijeljina had not been

2 brought, and then the other side began to get angry. They said, "Why

3 can't you organise this?"

4 So there was nothing else I could do but go to Bijeljina. I asked

5 that I be given a policeman, a civilian policeman, and that I should go to

6 Bijeljina. I went to Bijeljina with this policeman and of course, we had

7 approval, we had a document, and I found Mr. Susak. I didn't know him. We

8 put him in my car and I drove him to Samac. I was supposed to come to

9 Samac before 1500 hours so that I could talk to (redacted) but I was a

10 little late, and I had just arrived in front of the TO where I was to

11 leave him so that he could spend the night there, when Simo Krunic

12 happened to be there. He's already been mentioned here. He's a

13 policeman. And I said to him, "Simo, here is this man. Look after him.

14 Otherwise, your brother will not be coming tomorrow," because his brother

15 was to be exchanged on the following day. Simo said, "Don't worry, I will

16 sleep with him tonight." Then I went to the communication centre and

17 confirmed that everything was all right now, and that the exchange would

18 take place on the following day.

19 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

20 Q. As far as I can see from this document, and from what we know,

21 there was an exchange on the 4th of September. Did it often happen that

22 lists were discussed until the very last moment?

23 A. Yes. This document shows this, and very often there were

24 situations due to technical reasons that required discussions until the

25 very last moment. On both sides, there were technical hitches, and

Page 15380

1 someone would always say, "Well we can't do it like this. Let's do it

2 like that."

3 Q. And my last question in connection with this document, whose duty

4 was it to keep this record? Who entered the information we have just been

5 discussing and that we have put before the Chamber?

6 A. The communication centre had existed before the war, and it

7 operated according to the legislation then in force. I don't know very

8 much about it but there was an operator there day and night. There was

9 always a duty operator who received and sent certain messages relating to

10 certain situations, and if you look at this, a dispatch arrived, dispatch

11 sent, these are their -- how shall I call them -- documents. These are

12 military things, military matters, that were transmitted through the radio

13 connection.

14 Q. Do you know whether these were employees of the Secretariat of

15 National Defence?

16 A. Yes. They were employees of the Secretariat for National Defence

17 and had been before the war and continued to be so during the war and they

18 are still there doing something. In this document, you can see that in

19 the beginning, private messages were often received because people learned

20 of this possibility and they used various phone lines to ask about their

21 relatives, because other phones were not functioning so they made

22 inquiries about their relatives, about their friends, and they sent

23 messages through the communication centre for people who were interested

24 in this.

25 Q. When we mentioned the Maksa from Pelagicevo, what was the full

Page 15381

1 name of this person, his first and last name?

2 A. He was a Captain First Class, I think, Makso Simeunovic.

3 Q. Did you often have contacts with him in connection with the

4 exchanges?

5 A. Yes, we saw each other often.

6 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I wish to tender this document into

7 evidence and I ask that it be given a number.

8 MR. DI FAZIO: And I ask if Your Honours please that it be given

9 an ID number at this stage only. Apparently I'm informed that the --

10 there have been two translations done of this document, one of which was

11 done here in the ICTY, and that more recent translation does not accord

12 with the translation that the Defence have provided to us, and it's not

13 yet complete, so until that can be done, can it simply be given an ID

14 number and then at a later stage, I suggest that we won't have any

15 objections to it becoming a full exhibit.

16 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I simply wish to inform the Chamber

17 both translations are official translations done in the Tribunal. The

18 only difference is that one version is shorter and the other one is

19 complete. In the way they have been formatted there may be some

20 differences but I do agree that the translation should be checked and that

21 we should then have a number given it.

22 I made a mistake, I wanted to help the translation unit, and so I

23 picked out some pages I was interested in so that they would have less

24 work. That's why we have two different versions.

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There is one more thing I wish to

Page 15382

1 comment on.

2 JUDGE MUMBA: Who wants to comment?

3 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Mr. Tadic wanted to make a comment but

4 I would first like that we would have the number attached to the document.

5 JUDGE MUMBA: Before we give the number, what I want to ask you,

6 Mr. Lukic is, for your case for the Defence of Mr. Miroslav Tadic, you

7 are relying only on the paragraphs discussed?

8 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honours. I just wanted to

9 demonstrate here a few characteristics aspects but I believe what the

10 whole log is interesting for the Defence, not only because of the line of

11 exchange but especially in the second part, you will see the in document

12 itself that starting from autumn onwards there was no mention of exchanges

13 any more. If you recall, the witness said that when the Bosanski Brod

14 fell, there was no communication going on between the communication

15 centre, but in the radio log, there were daily entries relating to the

16 shelling and this is relevant for the Defence concerning the living

17 conditions in Samac. That is why I believe it should be tendered as an

18 exhibit.

19 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. We can have the number.

20 THE REGISTRAR: This will be treated as document D 154/3 ID and

21 D154/3 ter ID for the B/C/S.

22 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

23 Q. Mr. Tadic, you wanted to comment on something?

24 A. I wanted to comment a detail referring to the conversation with

25 Tesanj.

Page 15383

1 Q. I didn't want to mention that but the Chamber will have an insight

2 into this part as well. That took place on -- just a moment. Let me find

3 it. Just a second, please. In June, 1992, is that right?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Go on.

6 A. I would like to draw the attention to this detail in June, 1992,

7 we had no contacts whatsoever with a part of -- parts of Doboj, Tesanj

8 and Banja Luka. In other words with the western parts, there were no

9 communications and particularly in that period it happened that Dujkovic,

10 a man from our town, was taken prisoner in the area of Tesanj. That is a

11 municipality --

12 Q. Just a moment. For the Chamber, page 15, in the translation.

13 This is what Mr. Tadic is talking about.

14 A. This is the municipality which is about 40 kilometres to the south

15 from Doboj. We found out that this incident took place, that in fact his

16 father found out because he was our friend and colleague from Samac, and

17 he tried to find a way to establish communication with Tesanj, and that

18 was done through this communication centre. The people from that area,

19 who had been working on these assignments confirmed that Mr. Dujkovic

20 had been captured and we had lengthy conversations with them how to

21 release him, since we had no physical contacts with them. Then they

22 suggested that we from Samac release two men that were kept in prison in

23 Samac.

24 Q. Who are they?

25 A. The people from Tesanj. I never saw these people before or

Page 15384

1 after. And that is the Muslim parts of the then Bosnia and Herzegovina.

2 After several conversations, they accepted our proposal and released

3 Mr. Dujkovic who then went to the area of Doboj but since we were not

4 able at that time to release the men, we undertook obligation to release

5 them in the next forthcoming exchange, to be carried out in our area, and

6 that happened in July, 1992. These two men left. Therefore, there was

7 really a high level of trust between these two commissions, even though we

8 didn't have a physical commission, we agreed to carry this out, although

9 we had never seen each other, either before that or after that. And in

10 the radio log, on the margin, somebody wrote by hand, and with pencil,

11 those two names, because otherwise, no one would know what had actually

12 taken place. I think it was written there on the margin they left on the

13 5th of July. I omitted to show those names in the list but maybe it

14 wasn't necessary.

15 Q. I presume that you maintained contacts with the opposite side

16 after the July exchange concerning exchanges, but I believe that one

17 incident temporarily had frozen so to say the process of exchange. What

18 happened in July in the area of Odzak municipality?

19 A. That has already been mentioned, that in mid-July, 1992, the

20 Krajina Corps captured the area of Odzak municipality from the River Bosna

21 to the west as far -- to the west towards Zagreb, including the River

22 Sava. So this was a kind of V-shaped area that was under the control of

23 the HVO. So the detainees from Odzak, who were in Odzak, the Serbs

24 detained in Odzak, were transferred to Bosanski Brod. One or two days,

25 they spent in an elementary school in Novi Grad, and after that, they were

Page 15385

1 transferred to Bosanski Brod, a number to the educational centre in

2 Bosanski Brod and the remaining number in the company called Tulek and

3 they spent sometime there.

4 Q. Tell us what happened with the families of those men, their wives

5 and children, of these detainees at the time when the breakthrough of

6 corridor took place, who remained in the territory?

7 A. When people started to anticipate a war conflict between these two

8 armies, four or five prisoners managed to escape from the elementary

9 school, the ones who had been brought from Odzak, and since they knew the

10 village very well, they found shelter in the nearby woods, and the same

11 was done by the families, the wives and children who happened to be there

12 at the time in Novi Grad. The majority of them found shelter in these

13 areas where they couldn't be found or they went to some cellars and a

14 number of families were taken by the Croatian Army who was withdrawing to

15 Bosanski Brod.

16 Q. Would you like to have some water? I see that you're coughing.

17 Would you like us to have a break?

18 A. No.

19 Q. Mr. Tadic, what we are interested in in this procedure is what

20 became of the population that used to live in this territory before the

21 corridor was broken through?

22 A. The Croatian population and part of the Muslim population that

23 lived in the town of Odzak, which means that there were no

24 Muslim-populated villages, the entire population withdrew from this area

25 so looking towards Samac, Prud crossed over at the point Skela-Zorica,

Page 15386

1 another went via Skela to Novi Grad, and one via Skela to Kriva. So

2 that when the Krajina units arrived, they virtually didn't find anyone.

3 There were not even any clashes there at the time. I remember very well

4 hearing that from the Krajina fighters, that only two soldiers were

5 wounded and one Croatian soldier was killed but he was not from our

6 region. He was killed in Novi Grad.

7 Q. Did the Croats from the surrounding village of the -- of Odzak

8 municipality leave the area before the arrival of the army?

9 A. All of them, from Prud up to Donji Svilaj all the villages were

10 abandoned. That was a rather odd operation that ran in a rather unusual

11 way for an ordinary person, if you look at it how it happened.

12 Q. Can you repeat the names of two ferries?

13 A. Ferries in Zorice, in Novi Grad, and in Donji Svilaj. On the

14 other side of the River Sava, there are places with similar names, there

15 is Slavonski Novi Grad and Slavonski Svilaj.

16 Q. Where are these places?

17 A. That -- they are in the Republic of Croatia.

18 Q. I would kindly ask the witness to be shown the document with the

19 internal mark PDB 30/3. Do you know the date when Odzak fell?

20 A. On the 14th of July, 1992.

21 Q. I should rather say -- taken by the Army of Republika Srpska. Are

22 you familiar with this document?

23 A. Yes, I am.

24 Q. When did you see it for the first time?

25 A. I saw it for the first time in July, 1992, or somewhat later.

Page 15387

1 Q. Have you ever seen this document again later?

2 A. Yes. I have. That was one of the documents.

3 Q. Tell me, are you familiar with a name Ivica Matanovic, and who was

4 that man?

5 A. Yes. I know the name of Ivica Matanovic. He was the commander of

6 the 102nd Odzak Brigade. By the way he was a former JNA officer who came

7 to Odzak while those events were in progress but he was originally from

8 our area.

9 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would like to have

10 this tendered as an exhibit. With me, I have a copy here. However, the

11 document is in the communication centre in Modrica -- sorry, security

12 centre in Modrica, and I would like this document with a coloured stamp to

13 be tendered as an exhibit.

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If you allow me, I would like to

15 make some comments on this first paragraph.

16 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

17 Q. Yes. I would like to go into details?

18 A. I would like to read this first paragraph, which reads, "All

19 civilian population should be transferred by ferry to Svilaj in an

20 organised manner and tractors with trailers should be transferred from the

21 village via Svilaj, Velika Brusnica [phoen], Bosanski Brod, the bridge

22 Slavonski Brod".

23 Q. Do you know that the population withdrew along these routes?

24 A. Yes. Some witnesses before me testified to this, both witnesses

25 for the Prosecution and witnesses for the Defence.

Page 15388

1 Q. So this route, when you take this ferry to cross over to Svilaj

2 across the River Sava, just make it clear for the Chamber, where does it

3 lead?

4 A. That is the territory of the Republic of Croatia.

5 Q. If there are no objections, can we have the number for this

6 document, please?

7 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.

8 THE REGISTRAR: This will be Exhibit D155/3 and D155/3 ter.

9 MR. DI FAZIO: If Your Honours please, there is no objection to

10 being given an exhibit number but its authenticity is of course by no

11 means accepted by the Prosecution.

12 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I just don't understand, due to the

13 translation that I got is whether the Prosecutor has any objection to the

14 authenticity or not.

15 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes. Until there is -- the authenticity of this

16 document is by no means accepted by the Prosecution.

17 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Then can we kindly have the number?

18 JUDGE MUMBA: We've already given it a number, D155/3 ter and

19 D155/3.

20 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

21 Q. Mr. Tadic, after the arrival of the Army of Republika Srpska to

22 the territory of Odzak municipality, what do you know what was established

23 then and did you visit this territory of Odzak municipality following the

24 arrival of the Army of Republika Srpska?

25 A. After -- in the aftermath of these events, I went to the territory

Page 15389

1 of Odzak. This is nothing unnatural because I originally come from that

2 region, and I both wanted and needed to go there because I wanted to see

3 what the situation was there with the people, with my family, et cetera.

4 It happened sometime on and around the 20th of July. Of course the place

5 was full -- was swarming with army. I went to Odzak and at the checkpoint

6 that had already been established at the entry point to Odzak and there

7 was another one at Jakesnica [phoen], I was told that I had to ask for

8 permission to move around the area.

9 Q. When was that when you first came?

10 A. On or around the 20th of July, whether it was the 19th or the 20th

11 of July. At the time, the command of the Krajina Brigade was

12 headquartered in, I believe, a hotel. I went there and I met there a

13 major, his name was Mile Peronija [phoen]. He was the head of this

14 brigade, told him what I wanted to see, and he responded that military

15 administration was introduced in the area and that both civilians or

16 members of any other military units had to have permissions to move

17 around. Those permissions were granted on a one-off basis, and after

18 that, one could get a permanent permission. He decided that he can issue

19 a permanent permission to me because I needed to come quite often and he

20 gave me a kind of small ID paper. It resembles a telephone -- pay phone

21 card. And at every checkpoint that had been set up at every two or three

22 kilometres, so one had to pass through four or five of them, there were

23 road obstacles also so one had to show this little card and they would let

24 you go -- pass through. I also heard some more details from him. I asked

25 him whether there were civilians, who did they find, whether anyone was

Page 15390

1 taken prisoner, so that was what I was interested in, and he replied that

2 they had found a small number of women and children and elderly people who

3 were transferred to the reception centre in Modrica.

4 Q. Do you remember how many people were there?

5 A. Between 15 or 20, women, children and elderly people at that

6 moment. He also told me that one Muslim was taken prisoner, his name was,

7 I think, Delic, and that he was there in detention in Odzak. Then he

8 added that one Croatian soldier got killed and I immediately wanted to

9 know where that happened and how, and he told me that it happened in the

10 town. When I went to Novi Grad, I had seen that man. His name was Ivan

11 Korade, and I asked him to be buried there so that should the Croats --

12 should the Croats seek his body, I would be able to hand him over.

13 Q. Concerning the people who were transferred to Modrica, did you

14 find out their ethnicity?

15 A. When I finished my visit there, I dropped by in Modrica to this

16 reception centre, and I saw those precisely those people, whom I had

17 already known and some of them I didn't know particularly well, and in

18 conversing with them, I told them that a number of people were exchanged

19 on the 2nd of July, and that there were members of their families in

20 Samac. And I remember that I offered a lift two women by the family name

21 of Aleksic [phoen] and their father-in-law had been exchanged in Samac on

22 the 5th of July.

23 Q. Can you tell us when and where your fellow citizens from Novi Grad

24 or rather my colleagues are telling me, what was the ethnicity of those

25 people whom you met in Modrica?

Page 15391

1 A. Those people in Modrica were Serbs and Croats.

2 Q. When did the return of Serb families to Novi Grad start, those who

3 had been living in Samac but were originally from Novi Grad and who was

4 this organised by?

5 A. Well, there were already a lot of people from -- in Samac from

6 Novi Grad. There was the first exchange in May, then the second one on

7 the 5th of July, and that resulted in a large number of people coming to

8 Samac, and then other members of the families arrived there as well, so

9 that there were quite a lot of people, and they wanted to go to their

10 villages as soon as possible. The troops were in their villages at the

11 time. However, the military administration ruled that out, and specified

12 that the return of the civilian population would be possible only when the

13 situation permitted it or rather the conditions permitted it. And that

14 was based on their assessment. So that it wasn't until autumn that the

15 return of these people began. However, they could go for visits, day

16 visits, on an individual basis, and people took advantage of this. They

17 would take a permission, go and visit their village, and then come back

18 within the same day to Samac. It wasn't until later that the conditions

19 permitted for a larger number of people to return to their homes to

20 rebuild the homes, and create everything that was needed for a normal

21 life.

22 Q. The name of Colonel Vujnovic does it mean anything to you? Do you

23 know what he was involved in?

24 A. The name sounds familiar, the name of Colonel Vujnovic. I had an

25 opportunity to meet him. He was in the 1st Krajina Corps, in charge of

Page 15392

1 some civilian affairs, I'm not quite sure exactly what he was involved in

2 but it had something to do with civilian affairs and that corps. I

3 remember that on one occasion he came to Samac and met with people from

4 Novi Grad who were gathered there insisting on their return. He explained

5 to them why it was impossible for them to return in large numbers and

6 convinced them that it was impossible, telling them that they should not

7 insist upon it and that as soon as the situation permitted it, he would

8 inform them and they would be able to return to their villages. And to

9 Odzak, naturally, if somebody was from Odzak.

10 Q. These developments concerning Odzak, did that change your attitude

11 in your work with the opposite side concerning exchanges? Did you

12 continue negotiating and organising exchanges?

13 A. Perhaps just in the first few days, there was some kind of a

14 delay, similar to any other crisis, so after the 8th of May, there was a

15 minor delay and then after the 15th of July, there was another delay.

16 However, we knew what we had to do, and we attempted to establish contact

17 if by no other means than using ham operators and we managed to establish

18 contact and continue our work.

19 Q. Did you meet Milutin Grujicic then and what was the relationship

20 between you and the 1st Krajina Corps commission in the work that ensued?

21 A. In late July, I met Mr. Grujicic. I think that he came to Samac

22 before and met Velimir Maslic but I wasn't there and didn't meet him then.

23 When we started having first talks, that Velimir had arranged with them,

24 then I met Mr. Grujicic in Gradiska which is the town where he lived

25 although he originally was from Okucani in the Republic of Croatia. He

Page 15393

1 lived in Gradiska as a refugee in some apartment.

2 Q. What was your cooperation from -- what was your cooperation like

3 from the time you met him and onwards? We will get to Bakovici later

4 but I'm now interested in learning what was your cooperation like. Was

5 that a relationship where one was a superior and the other one was a

6 subordinate or were you equal?

7 A. We could say that he was our mentor. We relied on him.

8 Q. Who do you mean "we"?

9 A. I mean the commission from Samac, and all other commissions, there

10 was one in Modrica, in Doboj, in Derventa, and Brod and so on, so all of

11 these commissions relied on him because he had access to the opposite

12 side. He had established contacts with the Nepalese battalion and through

13 the Nepalese battalion we were able to contact the Croatian side directly

14 in the Dragalic area. We were never able to go there on our own. We

15 could never go there on our own initiative to Dragalic and meet with the

16 Croatian side. That was simply not possible. He always had to get a

17 permission in advance, and only upon obtaining the permission from the

18 Nepalese battalion with the list of people were those people who were on

19 the list able to cross over. Naturally, they had to wear civilian

20 clothing and be unarmed, because the Nepalese Battalion supervised the

21 situation very closely.

22 Q. This Samac commission, what kind of relations did it have with

23 other commissions you have just mentioned? How did they get in touch and

24 what was the reason for them getting in touch?

25 A. All of the commissions in the territory of the former Yugoslavia

Page 15394

1 had an interest to cooperate in the affairs or concerning the affairs

2 we've mentioned here. So as a result of that, we sent our data to other

3 commissions and other commissions in turn sent their data to us. The same

4 was done by the Red Cross chapters. If a Red Cross chapter from some town

5 knew that we would go and negotiate, that they would send us a list,

6 asking us to inquire about those people in our negotiations. So that we,

7 the Samac commission, as well as all other commissions, had tonnes of

8 lists of people from various areas of the war-ridden former Yugoslavia. I

9 remember that I received some lists from Sid, these people asked me to

10 inquire whether some of their fellow citizens were kept elsewhere and so

11 on.

12 Representatives of Orasje got involved in the work of the

13 commission. Later it became known as the Serbian Orasje and people from

14 that area fled to Republika Srpska. Then the next one was Pelagicevo.

15 Those people were together with us, trying to solve their problems.

16 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could the witness now be shown Exhibit

17 D91/3?

18 Q. Please take a look at this document?

19 A. There is no need for that. I know it by heart.

20 Q. Can you give us your comment?

21 A. This is one of the documents which circulated around at the time

22 from one commission to the next one. Here at the bottom you can see

23 "commission for seeking and exchanging" and the members of the commission,

24 and then on this right-hand side is the representative of the Red Cross,

25 and these are people from Modrica.

Page 15395

1 Q. Are all of these civilian commissions?

2 A. Yes. All of these are civilian commissions, commissions for

3 searching for people, and they didn't always know whether all of the

4 people were civilians or in the military. However, they sought them

5 because they were from their area. What is particularly interesting is

6 that information from various sources went to Modrica. For example, they

7 were looking for people that I had on my list, and that perhaps had been

8 exchanged previously, but somebody on the other side was looking for them,

9 unknowing that they had been exchanged and that's why they would send me a

10 list saying this person is sought by many sources. They send these kinds

11 of lists not only to our commission but also to other commissions in

12 Doboj, in Brod, and elsewhere, and you can see it clearly here. It says

13 here, "The people sought from Modrica municipality." You can see that

14 there are Muslims among them, Serbs and Croats. The list of people sought

15 from the Zenica area, a list from Croatia and so on, here on this page,

16 right here, you can see people from Novi Grad who he sought and who had

17 already been on my list, Luba Rakic, Djoko Rakic, and so on. Let me tell

18 you something about this person here, Miroslav Sisljagic I will probably

19 revert back to him later on but Miso Sisljagic is even more interesting.

20 Miso Sisljagic got killed before this date here. He had been killed

21 somewhere in Bosanski Brod. Pero Tadic here had already fled before this

22 date, from a camp or prison in Bosanski Brod, he had already fled and was

23 somewhere in the vicinity of Krajina units at the time.

24 This is Pero's son, who was exchanged later.

25 And so on. You can see people from Gracanica and from other

Page 15396

1 towns.

2 Q. Thank you. We won't be needing this document any more.

3 A. These are the documents that circulated among commissions, with

4 the aim of locating these people.

5 Q. After the June exchange, did something happen in your relations

6 with Mr. Todorovic and the 2nd Posavina Brigade?

7 A. Mr. Todorovic and some other individuals, shall I call them, there

8 was something going on with them all the time. Before this and after

9 this. After the July exchange, when Mr. Todorovic returned from the

10 hospital following his treatment, he was very angry that all of this had

11 taken place regardless of him or without his participation, and we

12 couldn't get it undone because it was already done, and he was especially

13 upset that it had been done while he was hospitalised. I don't know where

14 he was hospitalised but he went -- he was in a rehabilitation programme or

15 something like that. At that time, in late July, Captain Jez came to our

16 area, who had found a supporter in Mr. Todorovic. They had similar

17 attitudes. And were able to reach an agreement concerning their further

18 activities.

19 Q. Can you tell us what unit Captain Jez belonged to? Do you

20 remember what he did?

21 A. He was a security officer but I don't know what unit he was with.

22 He simply moved about our area. He was a member of Krajina Brigades but

23 he was in charge of our area as well.

24 MR. DI FAZIO: If Your Honours please, in order to follow previous

25 answer of Mr. Tadic's you should be clear about one thing in particular.

Page 15397

1 He says that after the July exchange Mr. Todorovic returned and was very

2 angry that all of this had taken place. I assume that that's a reference

3 to exchanges but if I'm incorrect, then perhaps I could be -- that could

4 be clarified for my -- for the Prosecution's purposes, and in any event it

5 should be, I think, made clear what was he angry about.

6 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

7 Q. Can we move into private session for just a few moments?

8 A. There is no need for that.

9 Q. All right. I agree.

10 A. All of this pertains to the July exchange, and it is clear whom we

11 have in mind. We mentioned a protected witness who was exchanged in July,

12 and therefore, this is what made him angry, the fact that his consent was

13 not asked for, for that July exchange.

14 Q. Do you know whether he did something to Mr. Cancarevic regarding

15 that?

16 A. Naturally, he harassed Cancarevic as well and I think that he

17 transferred him to Pelagicevo, and after that, Cancarevic was not a

18 commander of police in Samac any more but rather in Pelagicevo.

19 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could the witness now be shown a new

20 document, internally marked PDB 31/3?

21 Q. I assume you are very familiar with this document. What can you

22 tell us about it?

23 A. Yes, I am familiar with it and this document is one of the

24 consequences of our disagreements. It says here on the basis of

25 unofficial lists submitted by Miroslav Tadic, relating to people planned

Page 15398

1 for exchange. It is the standpoint of this command that a certain number

2 of people cannot be exchanged under present conditions. For someone to

3 prohibit someone from being exchanged, they would have to know these

4 people, because it's impossible for someone to prohibit someone from being

5 exchanged if they didn't know them. So the undersigned, he didn't know

6 these people at all, which means that somebody else had to have told him

7 that these people should not be exchanged, and that was Stevan Todorovic

8 who knew these people because they were detained with Stevan Todorovic,

9 and he acted through this gentleman who signed this document and the --

10 got this list made because he had quite a lot of influence over this

11 gentleman. I am sure that the undersigned had no idea who these people

12 were.

13 Q. As this list contains quite a number of names mentioned in these

14 proceedings, can you tell us, please, what you did when you received this

15 list? It's addressed to the Crisis Staff. Did the Crisis Staff hold any

16 discussions or reach any decisions in relation to this document, and what

17 did you do?

18 A. This document was not discussed. It wasn't even registered as

19 having been received by the Crisis Staff. Mr. Mitrovic sent it to me

20 because it's actually addressed to me. So the Crisis Staff did not

21 discuss it, nor was it ever recorded as a document of the Crisis Staff.

22 It wasn't registered. Everybody always referred to the Crisis Staff. So

23 that's what this gentleman thought. He thought that that's what he should

24 put here. But this was actually aimed at me, and against me so to say.

25 Q. You never answered my second question. What did you do when the

Page 15399

1 other side asked for these people on this list and what was your

2 relationship with the military authorities? Would you wait for the end of

3 the question, please? So what was your relationship with the 2nd Posavina

4 Brigade after July, in connection with the exchanges?

5 A. It's logical that if I were to send lists there, to be approved, I

6 couldn't put these names, I couldn't put these people down on the lists

7 because that would be counter to the order they had issued. So that we

8 had to wait for this furore to die down a little bit before new exchanges

9 could take place. All the people on this list were ultimately exchanged.

10 Some sooner, some later, but they were all exchanged in the end.

11 Q. Did you personally or the people you worked for ask Captain Jez

12 for his approval after this? Did you ask for the approval for the police

13 apart from what you said about Mr. Todorovic?

14 A. After what happened in connection with this document, there was

15 another incident a little later. An official commission was established

16 and although I had not been the President of the commission up to then,

17 because the commission was not formally established and I was not formally

18 appointed its president but because I did the most work on these tasks, I

19 seemed to be the President of the commission that was doing this, and then

20 on the intervention of Todorovic and Jez, who are mentioned here, what

21 happened was that the commission we have already mentioned was

22 established, headed by Velimir Maslic. He found it easier to cooperate

23 with them than I did, because he had a different attitude towards the

24 whole job. His attitude was more professional [as interpreted]. I

25 approached it differently. And of course, for every exchange, you had to

Page 15400

1 get the approval either of the army or of the police.

2 Q. Do you remember what Mr. Maslic said before this Court about his

3 being present when Mr. Jez was crossing out the names of your relatives?

4 Did Maslic tell you about this at the time? Did you know about it?

5 A. Unfortunately not. I learned that here.

6 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] May we take a break now? But first of

7 all if there is no objection, I ask that this document be given a number

8 before the break.

9 MR. DI FAZIO: No objection, if Your Honours please.

10 THE REGISTRAR: It will be Exhibit D156/3 and D156/3 ter for the

11 B/C/S.

12 JUDGE MUMBA: We shall break and continue our proceedings at 1250

13 hours.

14 --- Recess taken at 12.30 p.m.

15 --- On resuming at 12.53 p.m.

16 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Lukic.

17 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] We have a correction of the

18 interpretation, on page 65, line 1, speaking of Mr. Maslic, it says here

19 that he was more professional.

20 Q. Can you tell us what word you used exactly, why Maslic was

21 appointed president of the commission for exchanges? What was the word

22 you used?

23 A. I couldn't comment on why he was appointed, but I used the word, I

24 think, that he was more official in that area, meaning to say that I was

25 more emotionally tied to people.

Page 15401

1 Q. You used the word like a clerk or like a bureaucrat?

2 A. He knew people from the Odzak -- or rather he didn't know any

3 people from the area of Odzak, or of Samac, because he had not been in

4 Samac long, and he was from Samac. He had arrived some four or five years

5 before these events took place and he didn't know as many people as I did.

6 And that was the difference between us.

7 Q. Thank you.

8 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, before I move on, I wish

9 to clarify or rather to ask the Office of the Prosecutor as to their

10 standpoint with respect to document D-- the last document, D156/3. I

11 consulted the Prosecution and they said that they do not object to the

12 document being tendered into evidence but that they do contest its

13 authenticity. So I wish to ask the Prosecutor to say why they challenge

14 its authenticity, in view of the fact that the document contains

15 everything that -- according to the rules, so to speak, whenever the

16 authenticity of a document was in question, and during the pre-trial

17 stage, the Prosecution did not object to this document, they should have

18 objected at that stage. If we knew the reasons then we would be able to

19 prove the authenticity of this document. If the Prosecution has no

20 reasons to challenge the authenticity of the document, I submit that the

21 objection should be overruled.

22 MR. DI FAZIO: Sorry, if Your Honours, please.

23 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.

24 MR. DI FAZIO: I had no objection at all to the provision of

25 156/3. I made no comments on its authenticity.

Page 15402

1 JUDGE MUMBA: So I see. It was misunderstood then.

2 MR. DI FAZIO: That's 156/3. There was a previous document.

3 JUDGE MUMBA: Oh, I see.

4 MR. DI FAZIO: 155/3 in which I made the comment that the

5 Prosecution, although not objecting to its going into evidence, is not

6 conceding, that it is authentic, that it is an authentic document, and

7 that's the situation. But as far as 156/3 is concerned, I made no comment

8 relating to its authenticity and I have no objection to its admissibility.

9 JUDGE MUMBA: Very well. So that is cleared.

10 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I think I still have not received the

11 reply. We are discussing document D155/3. I have no explanation as to

12 why the Prosecution is challenging the authenticity of this document.

13 This is not clear to me, because nothing has been said as to why this

14 document is not authentic in comparison to all the other documents that

15 have been tendered so far. The document contains a seal, it has been

16 recognised by the witness, and if the Prosecution has grounds for

17 challenging its authenticity, then it has to give us those grounds.

18 JUDGE WILLIAMS: I think there is a little bit of confusion here

19 as well, Mr. Lukic, because on page 66, line ten and the following, you

20 actually said D156/3 and wanted comments from the Prosecutor and quite

21 clearly it was on the record as Mr. Di Fazio has just said that they have

22 no objection to 156. So I think that's where there was a little bit of

23 confusion.

24 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I really think it is not my mistake.

25 I did say document 155. It is probably an error in the transcript. What

Page 15403

1 concerns me is the standpoint taken by the Prosecution on document D155/3,

2 the order of the 11th of July, 1992. This is the document on which I wish

3 to hear the position of the Prosecution.

4 MR. WEINER: Yes, Your Honour. We had certain questions as to the

5 authenticity of this letter. Number 1, the stamp on the B/C/S version,

6 155/3 ter, is blurred. We can't decipher anything on that stamp. To the

7 right of the stamp is the signature of it. We haven't heard any testimony

8 that this witness was present during the signing of this document, that

9 this witness is familiar with this individual's signature, recognises that

10 to be the signature of Ivica Matanovic. So there is no evidence as to

11 that.

12 With regard to the second option which you have under the theory

13 of authenticity, you can either prove it through direct evidence or you

14 can prove it circumstantially. We haven't received any corroborating

15 evidence as to each one of these things being carried out, that these

16 units were actually seen doing certain things, that any of this did in

17 fact happen, that there is no corroborating information as to any of it.

18 Therefore, based on it being a handwritten document with no evidence as to

19 the signature, as to the stamp, as to any of this, in fact, occurring,

20 it's just as possible this is all a forged document. Thank you.

21 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] If this is the Prosecutor's position,

22 allow me to say a few words. A, the stamp mentioned by my learned

23 colleagues can very discernibly be seen on the copy because the copy was

24 made by using a computer from the original. B, the original of the

25 document, I verified through my investigator in the municipal secretariat

Page 15404

1 of the municipality of Doboj in the year 2000, and I have a certified copy

2 here but I don't have an English translation of this certified copy. And

3 C if the Chamber accepts the reasons for this objection as acceptable,

4 then the Defence would propose to hear first of all the investigator for

5 the purpose of our Defence, where he got his document from, and where the

6 document is, and if the Chamber -- and that is that if the Chamber

7 believes that this objection is grounded. However, I think that on no

8 occasion was it ever demanded from witnesses to confirm the signature, if

9 they know the content of the signature -- of the document, it does not

10 necessarily mean that they automatically know the person who had signed

11 the document, for as long as he was speaking this document, and I would

12 like to remind the Chamber here that another two witnesses discussed this

13 document, one for the Prosecution and the witness DW 1/3, that was the

14 witness for the Defence, regarding the facts relating to this document,

15 and I think that the Prosecutor has not offered any substantial reason in

16 order for to us establish the chain and the procedure how this document

17 had been obtained, because we believe that this document is crucial for

18 the Defence.

19 MR. WEINER: If counsel has a certified copy, is it certified from

20 the 102nd Brigade command? What is it -- we can also work on this at the

21 break maybe and not waste any time.

22 JUDGE MUMBA: That's what I was about to propose. Why don't

23 Mr. Lukic present the Prosecution with the certification or the latest

24 whatever original that he has and then you can deal with that and also

25 look at the evidence of the witness Mr. Lukic has just mentioned as having

Page 15405

1 discussed some of the contents of this document.

2 MR. WEINER: Yes, we can do that rather than waste any court time

3 on this, thank you.

4 JUDGE MUMBA: Also, I think it's important to establish the

5 importance of the contents of this document. They do touch on the

6 evidence of the -- I think demographer on the movement of the population,

7 besides other matters the Defence may be using it for, I think. Maybe

8 that will be sorted out. If not, then we will come back to it.

9 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] During the break, I would just like to

10 add that in the document itself the Prosecution stated that the majority

11 of the population had withdrawn from the territory of Odzak municipality,

12 together with the HVO. That was the thesis of the Prosecution. But I

13 think it's best that the parties discuss this document, that we do not

14 waste any more time for the Chamber on this issue.

15 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. So you can proceed with the rest of the

16 evidence for your client.

17 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

18 Q. Mr. Tadic, let us proceed now to the exchanges from August. I'd

19 like you to be shown now the document marked PDB 40/3. And let us

20 concentrate in our further examination on the exchanges that were

21 significant and in which you took part. One such exchange, as the Chamber

22 knows, took place on the 15th of August, and the other one was on the 25th

23 of August. Am I right? Do you remember these two exchanges taking place

24 in August?

25 A. Yes. I remember these exchanges, and these documents indicate

Page 15406

1 this fact.

2 Q. Tell me, this is the document drawn up by the Croatian commission.

3 On page 3, there is mention of the list of detained women. Do you have

4 any knowledge of this? Do you know of any women being detained on the

5 opposite side?

6 A. The majority of these women from the list I know, especially

7 number 1. Under number 1, we see the name of Milena Dragojlovic, the

8 woman who I mentioned earlier and the one who on the 19th of April, 1992,

9 was captured, together with her husband, and with Milan Rakic, and the

10 other two young men that I mentioned before. Therefore, she was captured

11 and was in Slavonski Brod in detention, wherefrom she was released in this

12 manner.

13 Q. Can we please have a number for this document?

14 THE REGISTRAR: This will be Exhibit D157/3 and ter for the

15 B/C/S.

16 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I would like now the witness to be

17 shown Exhibit D130/3.

18 Q. I think the Chamber already knows where Slavonski Brod is located.

19 A. Everybody knows it's in Croatia.

20 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.

21 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

22 Q. During this August exchange was it agreed to accelerate the

23 exchange of elderly people and women? Do you know anything about that,

24 that it was agreed not to hamper this process?

25 A. Given the fact that there were on going talks, we always tried to

Page 15407

1 agree for the flow of these people to be as simple as possible without any

2 major complications and similar things. And in the course of these talks,

3 the dominant topics were, for example, to have the elderly people, the

4 sick people, or the wounded people, to be transferred to the other side as

5 soon as possible in order to be given proper treatment. Similarly, we

6 frequently discussed that it was necessary to work on having separated

7 families and who hadn't yet managed to reunite to work on this issue in

8 order to reunite them as soon as possible on both sides.

9 Q. Can you please look at page 2 of this document? You are probably

10 very much familiar with it.

11 A. Yes. This is exactly what is written at the top of the page,

12 pursuant to agreement, at the latest exchange, the opposing sides --

13 Q. You don't have to read the whole of it.

14 A. The characteristic thing about this list is that under number 6,

15 there is the woman, Joka Tadic, that is my uncle's wife, and above her is

16 the name of her daughter, Danica Ninkovic. My aunt Joka was born in 1906.

17 Q. We needn't go further into that.

18 A. She is still alive. And her son was Pero Tadic, the person I just

19 mentioned earlier, and there were many other relatives of hers who were in

20 detention.

21 Q. Let us now hear from you what I think is rather important about

22 the exchanges and hadn't been mentioned before in this Chamber, and we --

23 I think we should shed some light on your role in these exchanges. Tell

24 me, what kind of situations did you encounter upon your return from these

25 exchanges? And what were the cases like regarding people who were not

Page 15408

1 exchanged?

2 A. The situations ensuing the exchanges were very difficult ones,

3 especially that was the case in late 1992, when the exchanges did not take

4 place any more in the Samac part of the municipality but rather in the

5 Odzak part of the municipality. It was not our usual practice to say in

6 advance who would be exchanged, so that people would know one or two or

7 five days in advance to read a list, because we were never sure who would

8 be exchanged actually, and we wanted to avoid any mistakes by putting

9 someone on the list and then for that person not to be exchanged. In late

10 1992, a large number of people from the area of Odzak, pursuant to the

11 permission granted by the military administration, moved to live in this

12 area, especially there were a lot of people from Novi Grad, Dubica, and

13 since a sort of civilian life kind of started to evolve, those exchanges

14 were transferred from Samac to Odzak. In fact we set off from Samac but

15 we returned to the area of Odzak. So instead of going to lunch or to

16 dinner, to the SIT kitchen, the lunch was made in a hotel in Odzak where

17 kitchen was set up there.

18 Q. Please don't go into too many details, just tell me what happened?

19 A. This is where we had -- where those exchanged people had the first

20 contact with their relatives. It goes without saying that people -- these

21 people who managed to cross over were extremely pleased and of course

22 there was no end to the sorrow of those who failed to come as well as to

23 the sorrow of their family members. The people who were dissatisfied saw

24 me as the main culprit for this situation. And all their rage was vented

25 against me in most cases, because the other participants in these

Page 15409

1 processes, they didn't even know. They didn't know Veljo or those men

2 from the Krajina commission, so that I was the main target of their

3 dissatisfaction. It is really hard to describe all these situations.

4 There were even threats made, insults, insults were endless. I remember

5 especially one occasion which was not so vehement, where there were not so

6 many insults. In Dubica, when we arrived at around 3.00 a.m. the bus

7 stopped and two or three men descended, because that was not a large scale

8 exchange and one man approached asking about his son. I told him that I

9 didn't know who his son was, because in this darkness I couldn't recognise

10 him, and I even less knew where his son was, if he wasn't on this

11 exchange, he would be on the next one. The man responded, "Now you're

12 going to exchange everyone because I'm going to bring a rifle" and he went

13 to fetch a rifle. There was a policeman on board the bus, mentioned

14 before, whose name was Pero Krstanovic. Let us not confuse this man with

15 the other man called Perica from Novo Selo. And he instructed the driver

16 to drive on. That was an exchange that took place in January. The driver

17 started the bus so abruptly and he turned around the bend and the man who

18 brought the rifle fired at us, but luckily, he did not hit the bus and we

19 went on.

20 There were numerous situations like this.

21 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Tadic, you mentioned January. Was that January,

22 1993?

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, 1993. I remember it was

24 winter, it was -- I think on the 7th of January. That was a small-scale

25 exchange.

Page 15410

1 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

2 Q. Let us not go into details, but what can you tell us about Mihajlo

3 Sisljagic?

4 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter did not catch all the names, I'm

5 sorry.

6 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Lukic, before the answer the interpreter says

7 they did not catch all the names.

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If I may say these names. A while

9 ago I said that I was considered to be the one to be blamed for not having

10 all people exchanged in that particular exchange, so in a certain manner,

11 I was to blame. Both by the Serbs, by the Croats and by the Muslims

12 equally. They saw me as the culprit even in the eyes of those who had

13 been exchanged and in the eyes of those who hadn't been exchanged. I was

14 to blame also in the eyes of those who were missing and due to that were

15 not exchanged, and to those who were killed, and were not exchanged, and

16 even in the eyes of those who were first exchanged and that got killed

17 later. A large number of people remained unexchanged -- unexchanged

18 because there was no information, and there is still no information up to

19 this date about their fate.

20 These people are from the Odzak area, Petar Markic went missing

21 in May of 1992.

22 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Lukic do we need these details?

23 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

24 Q. Mr. Tadic, we don't want to go into details but what you've just

25 told us now is quite important.

Page 15411

1 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I don't wish to go into

2 details but I think it's important to explain what problems Mr. Tadic

3 encountered in his work.

4 Q. You don't have to give us specific examples, Mr. Tadic, just

5 clarify what you've just said. What led to you being blamed by everybody?

6 A. The people I started talking about, are those who disappeared in

7 the course of these events. That means that their fate is unknown. The

8 ones I was going to enumerate are registered by the International Red

9 Cross and have their numbers in the records.

10 Q. Tell us, why were you considered the culprit by those who were

11 exchanged and later killed? Why were you blamed by their families?

12 A. There was -- there were many people who got killed on the opposite

13 side, for whatever reason. I wouldn't like to go into these reasons now.

14 The reasons for them being killed. But they were exchanged after being

15 killed, meaning their bodies were exchanged. Their bodies were brought in

16 and turned over, and I was blamed for not exchanging them earlier, before

17 they got killed. The other ones blamed me that I didn't exchange them

18 while they were alive, nor after they were killed.

19 The third group who were exchanged alive but got killed later,

20 they would say, had he not exchanged them, perhaps they would still be

21 alive today. So these were all different fates of the people who have

22 been mentioned. And somehow, their fates were linked to me -- with me.

23 Q. I'm sure you would have much to tell us regarding this but let us

24 abide by the instructions of the Trial Chamber and focus on other issues

25 important for this trial.

Page 15412

1 I will now focus on the topic that I'm interested in, which is

2 your relationship with the volunteers or the people wearing camouflage

3 uniforms, the so-called Crni who had come from Serbia. There are several

4 brief episodes I would like to hear you describe, but before we turn to

5 that, I would like to hear what was your relationship with Lugar.

6 Yesterday you told us about an episode through which we could see his

7 attitude with respect to you and the people who remained in Crkvina after

8 the massacre. Did you have any other encounters with Lugar and if so,

9 what were they like?

10 A. I had plenty of encounters, not only with Lugar but also with

11 others, specials if I may call them that. I would just like to add to

12 what Mr. Ljubo Vukovic said when he described the episode when Lugar came

13 to the civilian protection staff. That night, he called me sometime

14 around 2.00 a.m., asking me what I was doing. I told him, "Do you know

15 what people normally do at 2 a.m.? They sleep." And then he started

16 yelling and shouting, you Serbs, what are you like, while I'm creating a

17 state you're sleeping and saying such similar rubbish. And then he said

18 to me, "Make sure you have two or three people ready for me tomorrow who

19 will tell us what they had experienced on the other side," because there

20 was an exchange going on right at about that time.

21 I couldn't mention everything he told me on that occasion.

22 Yesterday, when I went to the staff offices, I happened to pass by

23 two young men who had been exchanged a day or two prior to that event.

24 Those young men were Sveta Goranovic, Svetozar, and another one with the

25 last name Jovanovic. So I told them come with me -- come along with me

Page 15413

1 and you'll have to explain something to somebody. We got there and we

2 ordered coffee and in the meantime, Mr. Lugar arrived. He put a piece of

3 paper in front of them and told them, "Why don't you draw here where the

4 front lines are, where Ustasha positions are and so on."

5 Q. Who said so to them?

6 A. Lugar said that to them and what little they knew they put it on

7 paper. He was quite arrogant and they were a bit scared. And at the end,

8 he asked them, "Did they beat you?" And they said, "Yes." And then he

9 said, "You will come to the detention facility with me, there are Ustashas

10 there and you can beat them all you like." And they said, "Well, how

11 could we go and beat people we don't know, whom we blame for nothing?"

12 And then he jumped and was very angry and his pistol fell out and fired,

13 and what Ljubo said had indeed happened. It hit a hanger. It was enough

14 to have somebody come over for a coffee and talk about something for the

15 pistol to be drawn out. I think that all of that speaks about the

16 attitude he had with respect to people he had a talk with. Naturally,

17 after that, he jumped and started cursing, God knows what, and then he

18 left the premises.

19 Q. Do you know that there were people from Odzak municipality who did

20 go to detention facilities to beat prisoners? Let me ask you first about

21 these two young men. Do you know whether they went to detention

22 facilities?

23 A. No, never, I know that for a fact. However, he could have come

24 across those who were willing.

25 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Perhaps we should make a break now,

Page 15414

1 but before that, the Prosecutor wishes to say something?

2 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes, if I may just for the sake of clarity can we

3 get a time frame on this episode with Lugar that the witness describes?

4 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, before we rise.

5 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes.

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can't remember exactly but perhaps

7 sometime in August of 1992. We could establish the date exactly if

8 necessary, when Sveta Goranovic was exchanged. We can find his name in

9 the exchange lists. I didn't think this to be particularly important so I

10 didn't research it, but it would be possible to establish when Goranovic

11 was exchanged. At any rate, it was in 1992.

12 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] We can take our break now.

13 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. We will break now and continue our proceedings

14 at 1500 hours.

15 --- Luncheon recess taken at 1.32 p.m.

16 --- On resuming at 3.01 p.m.

17 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Lukic. You're continuing.

18 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

19 Q. Mr. Tadic, do you know somebody called Zvezdan? Did you have any

20 encounters with him? Just tell us briefly. We need to cover these

21 episodes as briefly as possible.

22 A. I had hard time going through these episodes. I remember that

23 name, or perhaps it's a nickname. On one occasion, I think it was late

24 June of 1992, around --

25 MR. DI FAZIO: Sorry to interrupt, just so that can follow the

Page 15415

1 evidence unfortunately neither my colleague, Mr. Weiner, nor I heard the

2 name of the person and in the transcript it's written Zvezdan -- Zvezdan.

3 If the name could just be repeated so that we could now follow this

4 evidence, please?

5 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

6 Q. I said the person called Zvezdan - Z-V-E-Z-D-A-N - the person has

7 been mentioned during this trial. Go ahead, please.

8 A. I said I didn't know whether that was his first name or his

9 nickname. Around 11.00 p.m., somebody knocked on my door. I remember

10 well there was no electricity, therefore the bell didn't work. I went

11 down, downstairs, and when I asked who it was, they replied, the military

12 police. I opened the door and I saw four unknown to me men. I asked them

13 what they needed and they said, "We will tell you presently." They

14 entered the hallway and then later on we went upstairs. My wife lit the

15 candle and they wanted me to write some kind of a statement, whom I had

16 contacts with, how I established contacts with the other side, did I

17 reveal any military secrets, and similar rubbish. My wife started being

18 angry. She was getting upset, and then Zvezdan said, "I will take the old

19 lady to the other room," for fear of not using a worse word. I asked

20 them, "Do you know who I am?" I wanted to calm the situation down a bit.

21 However, they said, "We don't know but the one who sent us does." In the

22 dark, I wrote the statement. They expressly wanted me to write it in

23 Cyrillic alphabet. After I wrote down some ten lines of the statement,

24 they asked me whether I had arms. I told them I had a pistol. They asked

25 where it was. I said it's hanging on the coat rack. And one of them went

Page 15416

1 there and got the pistol. I told them it was a military pistol. And they

2 said no matter we will give it back to you tomorrow, after you come for

3 additional questioning.

4 They left and I never saw them again. They neither called me nor

5 did I look for them. However, I had occasion to see Zvezdan in Pelagicevo

6 at the military police, when I went to verify whether a young man called

7 Danijel Jovanovic was in prison there. He was sought by the Croats. And

8 he was allegedly captured on our side. I went there intending to see

9 whether he was kept in detention there. When I got there, he looked at me

10 sideways and asked me what I wanted. I said I wanted to inquire about the

11 whereabouts of this soldier. He remembered me. He knew -- he realised

12 that I was the one involved in exchanges, and asked me, "Are you Brko whom

13 I questioned?" I said, "Yes." And he said, "And you're still alive."

14 And I said, as you can see for yourself. And he sent me to a shop to

15 inquire about Jovanovic. He didn't want to send a policeman with me. I

16 went there by myself. And the glass windows of the shop were broken.

17 There were several prisoners in there and I approached the bars on the

18 windows of the shop. I asked whether Danijel Jovanovic was there and a

19 young man approached me and said, "I am that person." And then I told him

20 that he was sought by the Croatian side and I asked him whether he wanted

21 to be exchanged and he said yes.

22 We will probably see this in the documents.

23 Q. Can you please give me direct answers to my questions? When did

24 this incident involving Zvezdan take place?

25 A. I think it was the end of June, 1992, and I said so at the

Page 15417

1 beginning.

2 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Excuse me, Mr. Lukic, you mentioned on page 80,

3 line 6, that this person called Zvezdan has been mentioned in the trial.

4 When? I mean, I don't mean every page. I mean that it -- frankly it's

5 not a name that strikes me as being that familiar. Was he a special,

6 paramilitary? I mean who was he, if you could just maybe -- you or

7 through Mr. Tadic, just clarify that?

8 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I believe he was mentioned several

9 times but the freshest instance was when Witness DW 2/3 testified. If you

10 remember, when this specials came, the one who took him to write a

11 statement, he mentioned the name of this person as being one of the

12 specials who had come from Serbia and who made him write the statement.

13 They also wanted to get some money from him, and I don't want to go into

14 details because this all transpired in a closed session.

15 JUDGE WILLIAMS: That's just fine but simply to know, yes, he was

16 one of the specials. That's sufficient.

17 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

18 Q. That's right. Mr. Tadic, Zvezdan was in a group of volunteers or

19 of the people wearing camouflage uniforms who had come from Serbia?

20 A. I've said at the outset that four men, unknown to me, had come,

21 meaning that all four of them were from Serbia. They were not locals,

22 otherwise I would have known them.

23 Q. I'm interested in another person from that group, and according to

24 my information, his nickname was Grof, meaning count. Did you have an

25 encounter with him and what transpired there?

Page 15418

1 A. He was one of those specials, and let me tell you right away, that

2 they never went alone. They usually moved in groups. On one occasion,

3 somebody called Jovo Savic, a deputy commander of the 4th Detachment,

4 informed me that the specials were going around wanting to set on fire a

5 company which was across from my house. It was a carpentry workshop where

6 coffins were made later. He said that they were carrying around a zolja

7 and wanted to fire at that facility. A few minutes went by and some four

8 or five of them came by. They sat at a table. I knew what it was all

9 about so I sat with them trying to calm them down and to prevent the

10 situation from escalating. There were residential buildings all around us

11 and there were many highly inflammable items in that company or workshop,

12 and one of them pointed to that company and said, "Can you see what is

13 written there?" And what it said there was, Comrade Tito, we are -- we

14 give our pledge to you. I never paid attention to that. But then the man

15 said to me, "Have that sign removed within ten minutes." Since I worked

16 at the civilian protection staff, I said that I will get somebody to paint

17 the sign over tomorrow. And then he said to me, "Two minutes have

18 passed." And then I sent two soldiers from the 4th Detachment who

19 happened to be there and told them to try to shoot at the sign from their

20 rifles, to see if it would fall down, to see if the mortar would come

21 off. And they fired at it and somehow managed to get the letters off. In

22 my shop, I still had Tito's picture hanging, the one I described

23 yesterday, and I thought if they should enter that room, they will see

24 Tito's picture and there will be great trouble so I told somebody go into

25 that room take Tito's picture off and the man did it. He hid it behind a

Page 15419

1 chair. However, they never went into that room and they stayed for a few

2 more minutes and then they left, their hand-held grenade launcher remained

3 there and this is how we prevented them from setting that place on fire.

4 There were several other encounters, both involving me and other

5 citizens of Samac.

6 JUDGE MUMBA: All right.

7 MR. DI FAZIO: I just thought that if the witness was leaving this

8 episode if we could once again try and get a fix on an approximate time

9 period for this episode.

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think I've already said that it

11 was late June.

12 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

13 Q. Well, no, that concerned the previous incident.

14 A. Yes, you're right. The incident involving Grof, or the count,

15 took place a bit earlier, perhaps early June.

16 I started saying that in addition to the encounters I had with

17 them, there were many other residents of our town who had unpleasant

18 encounters with these men. I remember that our commander, Radovan Antic,

19 also had some problems, as did Makso Simeunovic and Blagoje Simic and

20 Simo Zaric. Perhaps more than one would expect. We've already heard here

21 that whomever they came across and didn't like, they would start slapping

22 or hitting the person, and looking for a pretext to cause trouble. So

23 there were many such encounters and none of them were pleasant.

24 I -- these four men that I just described, a minute ago, Zvezdan

25 and his gang, I saw them frequently in the company of the commander of the

Page 15420

1 5th Battalion, called Mladen Radovic. In 2000 I asked him whether he had

2 sent these people. I used to see them with him frequently and he told me

3 that he had not sent them. I don't know whether he's to be believed or

4 not.

5 Q. We shall now move on to another topic and in order to proceed

6 faster, we have already spoken a lot about the testimonies before the

7 Court so I ask you to answer my questions only briefly.

8 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Just before you move on, I wonder, Mr. Tadic,

9 whether you would know, this man, Grof, the count, is he the same person,

10 if you know, that the witness Jelena Kapetanovic mentioned as being

11 somebody who came when she was incarcerated in the stadium and then the

12 cultural centre gymnasium, whatever it was, in Crkvina, if you know? It's

13 just that the name seems to ring a bell in my mind.

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. It's not the same man, because

15 Jelena was mixed up. It wasn't Grof but another man who came to the

16 detention unit. I think this man's name was Debeli or the fat guy. Grof

17 was so to speak a lower level special purpose man. He didn't have a high

18 post.

19 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Thank you.

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I would only ask Mr. Lukic why he's

21 in such a hurry.

22 JUDGE MUMBA: It's because the Defence has to answer the charges

23 so we don't need any more details about the characteristics of some of

24 these people referred to as specials. I think the ones you have narrated,

25 the episodes you have narrated are sufficient.

Page 15421

1 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

2 Q. Mr. Tadic, I am putting questions to you which I, as your counsel,

3 consider to be important for your Defence. I believe that you trust me to

4 put proper questions to you, and that we shall stick to what we feel will

5 contribute to challenging the claims of the Prosecution.

6 A. Well, we shall see.

7 Q. I will put a few questions to you about civilian protection and

8 work obligation. We have talked about this before this Court. We have

9 heard testimonies about it, which is why I feel there is no need to go

10 into detail and repeat things. We shall mention only what is essential.

11 This Court has heard quite a lot of testimony about the fact that the

12 premises of the team working on the work obligation were on the ground

13 floor. We heard about the telephone, about the way messages were

14 transmitted, so now I'm asking you: Did you personally or anybody else

15 from the civilian protection staff give any kind of orders to the work

16 obligation service which was housed in the pensioners' club building?

17 A. The only connection between the civilian protection and the work

18 obligation was that we shared the same building and the same telephone.

19 Everything else was separate. No tasks were given to the civilian

20 protection in connection with work obligation unless someone from the

21 civilian protection went to assist by repairing a building or a roof, so

22 if someone from civilian protection helped in something that work

23 obligation was doing, then they would be connected in that way but the

24 civilian protection did not require people to be constantly present as the

25 work that was done was something that happened occasionally, according to

Page 15422

1 need, except for the building of coffins that we have already mentioned.

2 Q. Were you or anyone from the civilian protection able to come in

3 front of the pensioners' club where people gathered for work obligation

4 and then take them away to do something or would you have to apply with a

5 request for this to be approved?

6 A. Neither did we do this, nor did we take anyone away. If we needed

7 someone, then one of us would go downstairs to ask Dzevad or Debeli, they

8 are commissioners, whether they had any men available who might be able to

9 help at that moment. If he had people available, he give them to us. If

10 he didn't, then he couldn't. So that was the sort of cooperation we had.

11 And if people were there, and were available, they were happy to go and

12 help.

13 Q. At sessions of the Crisis Staff, the ones what you attended, did

14 you discuss work obligation and did you issue any orders or instructions

15 concerning work obligation to anyone?

16 A. While I was there, we never discussed this at the Crisis Staff,

17 nor did we issue any kind of instructions, because you -- you can tell

18 from what has been said so far how this was organised.

19 Q. Was your private vehicle requisitioned?

20 A. My private vehicle, which I used throughout the war, was

21 requisitioned, but I was the only person who used it. This was a kind of

22 perk that we had, because if you had an official car, it was easier to

23 pass through all those checkpoints. You would get a permit, a

24 green-coloured card from the Secretariat for National Defence, containing

25 the details of the vehicle and you would only show that at the checkpoints

Page 15423

1 and then it was easier to pass through.

2 Q. Could the ministry have used that vehicle for other purposes if

3 they needed it to conduct other business because it was requisitioned?

4 A. Well, yes. In theory but there was no time for them to do that.

5 I don't know when they would do that because I constantly used it. I

6 think I drove over 90.000 kilometres in that car during the war.

7 Q. Did you, as the commander of the civilian protection staff and the

8 member of the Crisis Staff, were you ever asked anything about the

9 organisation of the procurement of wood for fuel?

10 A. These supplies came through the executive board, and it was no

11 secret that that is how fuel or wood was obtained. Citizens who were at

12 risk in any way, such as single mothers, families of soldiers who had been

13 killed, elderly people and so on, who were unable to obtain firewood, they

14 would apply for it and be granted or given firewood by the executive

15 board, and it was they who distributed it.

16 Q. Did you yourself issue orders to anyone to go and collect firewood

17 from the abandoned villages and bring it to warehouses in Samac? You know

18 what the witness Nusret Hadzijusufovic said about this. And I will ask

19 you right away whether you knew any women who lived above Merkur?

20 A. I never ordered either Nusret or anyone else to do this because

21 there were others who were in charge of that sort of work. So why would I

22 issue orders that were not within my sphere of activity? There was no

23 need for me to do that but I know that firewood was brought in and

24 distributed and that we, as members of the civilian protection staff, had

25 to obtain firewood for our own offices and we did this in the same way as

Page 15424

1 everybody else. We asked the executive board that truck load or two of

2 firewood be brought to us and we used it to heat our premises.

3 Q. In connection with the Merkur building, witness Hadzijusufovic

4 testified that he had been ordered to take firewood there to some women

5 who had applied to Tadic.

6 A. I know who these women are. There were three such women who lived

7 in a studio flat there. They were refugees from Donja Dubica, there was

8 an elderly woman and her two daughters. One daughter was called Mila and

9 her son was killed in Brod, and that was the basis upon which she asked

10 for firewood and that's why it was supplied to her.

11 Q. Was her name Goranovic Mara?

12 A. It was Mila Goranovic, her sister was Mara and the mother's name

13 was Smilja.

14 Q. Did they ever apply to you with requests for firewood?

15 A. No, they didn't. But Granny Smilja always asked about her

16 grandson.

17 Q. I will now put a few questions to you about your relations with

18 the Secretariat for National Defence, and the local police, in the period

19 while you held some posts in Samac. At the beginning of your testimony,

20 you said that your son was in the 4th Detachment?

21 A. What did you say?

22 Q. That your son Miroslav was also in the 4th Detachment. Where was

23 he later? And how did you feel about where he was later?

24 A. Well, I have already said here that my son was in the 4th

25 Detachment. I think this was towards the end of June, when he was sent to

Page 15425

1 a Special Battalion.

2 Q. Who sent him there?

3 A. The Ministry for National Defence, the Secretariat for National

4 Defence of Osijek [as interpreted], headed at that time by Bozo Ninkovic.

5 I think it was a big misfortune for parents to have their sons sent to a

6 Special Battalion.

7 Q. Why?

8 MR. LAZAREVIC: [Previous translation continues] ... here, unusual

9 here in the transcript on page 90, line 3, it says the Secretariat for

10 National Defence of Osijek and this is definitely not what the witness

11 said.

12 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Can we have that corrected, then?

13 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

14 Q. Mr. Tadic?

15 A. The Secretariat for National Defence headed by Bozo Ninkovic.

16 Q. In what town?

17 A. Bosanski Samac.

18 Q. You began to talk about why it was a misfortune for parents to

19 have their son sent to the Special Battalion?

20 A. Well, this battalion had several names among the people. They

21 called it the intervention battalion and there were other names for it,

22 and you could see from those names that it had a special purpose. Every

23 third soldier of that battalion was killed so one in three was killed, and

24 almost everybody was wounded.

25 Q. What happened to your son?

Page 15426

1 A. Fortunately he survived, but he was also seriously wounded.

2 Q. Can you tell the Chamber when your son was seriously wounded?

3 A. He was wounded on the 19th of August, 1992.

4 Q. Did you personally do something to prevent your son being sent to

5 that battalion? Was there anything you were able to do? What was your

6 relationship with the people who sent him there? What did people say

7 about this?

8 A. Well, I didn't do anything, because I felt that I shouldn't.

9 Q. Were there any rumours going around Samac and was this considered

10 normal?

11 A. Well, people might have talked more if he hadn't gone, but he went

12 and, again, there were stories going around that -- well, but had I asked

13 that he not go, that would not have been seen in a good light.

14 Q. Tell me: Was your son later tried, processed? And what was the

15 situation concerning those proceedings? And when was this?

16 A. This was in 1993, early 1993. I will be as brief as possible. An

17 acquaintance of mine, a neighbour called Adic, came into our cafe. He was

18 drunk and his 11 year old son was with him and another friend or relative

19 of his. I think his brother-in-law.

20 Q. What did you say the man's name was?

21 A. I didn't. I only said a neighbour of mine, and an acquaintance.

22 Q. What was his name?

23 A. His name was Slobodan Ilincic. This was at about 1.00 after

24 midnight, 1.00 a.m. and he tried to cause trouble. This man, whenever he

25 got drunk lost control. He didn't get drunk often but on that occasion,

Page 15427

1 his wife was away somewhere and he took the opportunity to get drunk. He

2 tried to hit me, and then my son pushed him and he fell down, and hit a

3 footrest next to the bar and hurt himself. After that, his brother-in-law

4 and his son took him away. He went home first but then he went to the

5 health centre after that, and to make a long story short, on the following

6 day, the police arrived, the civilian police, and they drew up an official

7 record which they were bound to do, and handed this over to the Court and

8 my son was sentenced to four months in prison and 7.000 German marks in

9 damages to that man. I'm saying only that he was not reported -- reported

10 either by the Crisis Staff or the municipal assembly or Blagoje Simic or

11 anyone, but it is well known who can submit a criminal report. The police

12 had to do this ex officio, and that's how my son came to be sentenced.

13 Q. We will now move on to a completely different topic.

14 Mr. Tadic, were you a member of the War Presidency?

15 A. No, I wasn't, and you can see this from that document enumerating

16 the members of the War Presidency.

17 Q. Did you attend sessions of the War Presidency?

18 A. No.

19 Q. We know that it is indisputable before this Court that the

20 municipality resumed its operation in January, 1993. I'm referring to the

21 municipality of Samac. Did you hold any position in the municipal

22 authorities ever since it became operable again?

23 A. I didn't hold any position, before, at the time, or after that. I

24 wasn't a councillor, nor an employee of the municipality of Samac.

25 Q. Up to what time were you the commander of the civilian protection

Page 15428

1 staff and what position did you hold after that?

2 A. The civilian protection staff, as I said at the beginning, covered

3 a whole area of activities, and when the municipality -- municipal

4 authorities became operational, occasionally the duties of the

5 protection -- civilian protection staff were delegated to the municipal

6 organs. We've already seen that the inventory of flats was done by the

7 organs that were established only later. Similarly, when the municipal

8 assembly was established, the protection civilian staff almost had no role

9 any more at the time, because even the building of the coffins that we

10 mentioned in early 1993 also came under the jurisdiction of the executive

11 board and these coffins could not have been gotten free, for free. People

12 had to go to the municipality for kind of certain certificate and with

13 that certificate, they could get these coffins. So if there was any

14 justification for any person to get this coffin for free, then it would be

15 written in the certificate. Otherwise every citizen had to pay for the

16 coffin and then go and collect it there.

17 So, under such circumstances, the Secretariat for National

18 Defence, under which jurisdiction the protection civilian -- civilian

19 protection staff operated, established a new civilian protection staff,

20 which got a so-called normal shape of civilian protection under normal

21 circumstances.

22 People specialised in certain areas, became members of the staff,

23 like people of fire -- for caving in, for fire protection, or for securing

24 the water supply, so about a dozen people were professionally assigned to

25 this civilian protection staff, and the staff moved again back to the

Page 15429

1 communication centre. They were given a female secretary. I think her

2 name was Gordana Tovic.

3 JUDGE MUMBA: [Previous translation continues] ... what position

4 the defendant held.

5 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

6 Q. The Presiding Judge, Mrs. Mumba is more interested to hear what

7 was your role and your position?

8 A. In this reorganised staff, I was again for a short time the head,

9 and after that, Perica Krstanovic was appointed to that position and after

10 that, I had nothing to do whatsoever with the civilian protection staff.

11 That staff appointed me a commissioner of a local commune.

12 Q. When did that take place?

13 A. In early 1993. After that, I didn't have an office or any

14 specific job or any special work obligation with the exception of what I

15 did as a member of the commission for exchange.

16 Q. We will talk a little bit more about exchanges later but tell me:

17 Did you take part in any decision-taking process of the War Presidency,

18 and the municipal authorities, after the Crisis Staff started -- ceased to

19 operate?

20 A. No, I didn't take any decisions.

21 Q. Did you hear anything and what do you know about the incident when

22 people swam across the River Sava in August, 1992?

23 A. I heard that there -- there were people swimming across the River

24 Sava in August, 1992, but I didn't believe that as many as 100 people

25 could have swum across the river without anything seeing that so I didn't

Page 15430

1 pay much attention to this story. I didn't believe that that happened,

2 but maybe a few people managed to swim across, but I really couldn't

3 believe that it could have been 100 people, because there were guards

4 there, there were troops there, and I really couldn't believe how that

5 could have happened. But later, in this trial, I heard from many

6 witnesses that this did happen and I accept that as a fact.

7 Q. In your interview, you also talked extensively and replied to the

8 OTP questions about Zasavica and people being taken away to Zasavica. At

9 the time you didn't mention this incident of swimming across the Sava, but

10 do you believe that these are interlinked incidents? Do you have any

11 knowledge of that?

12 A. At the time, I didn't have any particulars. I knew that the

13 incident in Zasavica did happen but only later, I realised that that was

14 the reason why those people were taken to Zasavica.

15 Q. Did you yourself go to Zasavica in that period?

16 A. No.

17 Q. I would like the witness to be shown the map, 5 -- P9. And I

18 would like to ask the witness to show us where Zasavica is because this is

19 interesting regarding to the first exchange.

20 Can you describe us what was so particular about this village

21 during the war?

22 A. I am trying to focus here on this area which is interesting. We

23 can't see Samac here. We can only see Zasavica and this is this part of

24 the village. This road leads to Modrica from Samac to Modrica and here

25 there is another road leading to Zasavica.

Page 15431

1 Q. What you just pointed, is that where the bridge is that we saw on

2 the video?

3 A. Yes. That's where the bridge is. There is no river there. This

4 is just a ravine and this is where the bridge is. And this first house

5 here, once you cross the bridge, that is where -- this is the house

6 belonging to a man named Loncaric and Dr. Ozren Stanimirovic mentioned

7 that and I know very well this man, Loncaric and this house belongs to him

8 and that is where a tavern used to be and we were also colleagues so when

9 you enter Zasavica at this crossroads, there is this artesian well

10 where -- from which the water is supplied and this is where the village is

11 branching so the greater part of the village is on the other side, as you

12 can see.

13 Q. Can you mark, if you have a pencil, where does -- did this first

14 exchange that we heard of took place? Can you see that on the map?

15 A. Well, roughly, not exactly. When we went to do this exchange, we

16 didn't enter here into the village, but rather we entered more downwards,

17 in order not to disturb the peace of the villagers of Zasavica, not to

18 upset them, so we went down to the road at a lower point and we basically

19 reached the same point by taking a bypass road.

20 Q. Can you mark this point with number 1?

21 A. Number 1 is place where we took the detour, and number 2 is the

22 place where the exchange was done, and that is where we people crossed

23 over the Bosna and went to the opposite side, to Odzak municipality. At

24 the time, the demarcation lines were somewhere here, running along the

25 River Bosna, and on the other side also along the River Bosna, so when we

Page 15432

1 came close to the river the people stood there and the line was here. We

2 were between these lines and it was very, very dangerous to be in that

3 place.

4 Q. Tell us: At the time before July, while the demarcation line was

5 on the River Bosna, before Odzak was captured, taken by the Army of

6 Republika Srpska, was that area shelled? Do you have any knowledge of

7 that?

8 A. Before 15th of July, 1992, this is where the demarcation line was,

9 and shells arrived from that side but they never reached the area of

10 Zasavica. The closest they hit the land was somewhere here and this is

11 where one woman got killed. I think that her last name was Sulapovic

12 [phoen] and she is in that list, on that list, and also the postman's

13 house was damaged by a shell.

14 Q. How about these villages surrounding Zasavica? Were they shelled

15 in that period?

16 A. This is part -- this part is known as Donja Crkvina and it had

17 also been shelled, and this here is Gornja Crkvina and this part was also

18 shelled, and this intersection also was shelled. This is the road that

19 leads to Gradacac.

20 Q. Can you mark all these locations with numbers 3, and 4?

21 A. So Donja Crkvina is number 3, and Gornji Crkvina is number 4, this

22 cluster of houses here.

23 Q. How far apart are these -- sorry, how far are these villages are

24 from Zasavica?

25 A. Well, they are practically not far away. They are virtually one

Page 15433

1 and the same settlement. You see these two or three houses here, they

2 actually belong to Crkvina, and the houses behind this dotted line belong

3 to Zasavica. So there is virtually no big distance between these

4 villages.

5 Q. Can we please have the number attached to this document?

6 A. Are we going to go back to this?

7 Q. I will ask you further questions but I don't think we need the map

8 any more.

9 A. Because we mentioned this incident of swimming across the Sava and

10 the arrival of these people to Zasavica, I think I need to say a few more

11 sentences about this. In August, when they came in late August, 25th or

12 26th, of August, at the time there was no demarcation line here. This was

13 a free zone, and people could easily move around to the other side and

14 vice versa. So somewhere here was a pontoon bridge across which it was

15 possible to cross over even in a car to the other side. So at the time,

16 when those people who had been brought from Samac in August, next to this

17 checkpoint that I just mentioned, the whole area was accessible to them.

18 So while this area was under the control of the HVO, people could freely

19 move through village -- down village roads to Crkvina and to Milosevac and

20 because these are the fields that belong to the villagers of Milosevac,

21 Zasavica and Crkvina. So this is to the west.

22 Q. What you just said for the sake of clarity, can you mark with

23 number 5 this checkpoint? Where was it?

24 A. Well, this is this house of the man Loncaric who used to run a

25 pub.

Page 15434

1 Q. And what you said that people could freely cross over the pontoon

2 bridge, can you mark that with number 6?

3 A. Yes, that's the pontoon bridge and this entire territory was

4 free for movement of civilians from both sides.

5 MR. DI FAZIO: If Your Honours please, I wonder if there is a

6 mistake in the transcript.

7 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.

8 MR. DI FAZIO: I haven't misunderstood something. The witness

9 seemed to say that while this area was under the control of the HVO,

10 people could move freely through the village, and at the time his pen was

11 running around the area of the village of Zasavica. Is the witness saying

12 that Zasavica was under HVO control? Because that's the way it reads. It

13 may be that something was lost in the translation. I assume that that may

14 well have happened.

15 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Yes, I understood it but let's have

16 the witness clarify.

17 Q. Were you able to cross over from Zasavica to the territory

18 controlled by the HVO, without any details, please?

19 A. No, no details whatsoever. All of these matters are very

20 important. Up until the 15th of June, 1992, 15th of July, interpreters

21 correction, the HVO was there, and the positions, the line of the Army of

22 Republika Srpska, were established here, and at that time, it was

23 impossible to cross over to the other side except for that instance when

24 100 people swam over across the Sava River.

25 And starting in the 15th of July, 1992, there was no HVO on this

Page 15435

1 other side, so this whole area was one and the same, and one could move

2 freely about. Cross over and come back. And this is what happened. The

3 pontoon bridge was here and it was used for people to travel between Samac

4 municipality and Odzak municipality.

5 Q. I think it would be best if we said for the record that the

6 witness showed that up until the middle of July, there was a demarcation

7 line on the Bosna River and one couldn't cross freely to and fro, the two

8 sides, but after the HVO withdrew from that area, which was on the other

9 side of the Bosna River, people could go freely to the other side, to the

10 other bank of the river.

11 A. What I also wish to say is that when these people came in late

12 August to Zasavica, this entire area here was open for movement. There

13 were no troops there. There were no demarcation lines so that the only

14 security site was a checkpoint here. Up until the 15th of July, 1992,

15 there was security on this side of the line.

16 Q. Can we now be given a number for this document?

17 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. No objection from the Prosecution?

18 MR. DI FAZIO: No, no objection to the production into evidence of

19 this map. I'm a bit concerned about whether or not we will later be able

20 to marry up the markings on the map to what the witness has said in the

21 transcript but that concern having been expressed, I have no objection to

22 its actual tendering into evidence.

23 THE REGISTRAR: This will be Exhibit D158/3.

24 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] This can be verified in

25 cross-examination but I believe that a lot of issues have been now

Page 15436

1 clarified by the witness.

2 Q. Did you know the Tomic family from Zasavica?

3 A. When I showed the photograph, I've already said that my sister's

4 daughter is married to a Croat from Zasavica, and the house in the picture

5 that we saw can be clearly seen, and that house is right here at this

6 intersection. My friend, Pero Tomic, was on very good terms with me. I

7 went to his house frequently, be it for various parties or some other

8 reason. He was one of the founders of the HDZ in Zasavica village.

9 According to the testimony of the last protected witness, some of the

10 residents of Zasavica and my friend Pero crossed over across the Bosna

11 River and went to the Odzak area. The witness testified that 400 people

12 or thereabouts went from this part of Zasavica and crossed over and that

13 some 70 people remained in the then Zasavica. I had contact with that

14 neighbour of mine, Pero, later on. We used to see each other on the

15 demarcation line after I was indicted.

16 Q. In addition to these family ties with him, were you on good terms

17 with other residents of Zasavica? We know it to be a village mostly

18 populated by Croats before the war.

19 A. A lot of people from that village know me, as I know them. There

20 are a lot of my students living there. In this area right here, we can't

21 see it on the map, but it's visible on that photograph, Marjan Jelavic and

22 Anto Jelavic lived here on this road. There are two houses in the

23 vicinity of the church here. I was on very good terms with them. Anto

24 used to be my roommate when we lived in Samac, and my sister is living in

25 that house as a refugee now.

Page 15437

1 Q. Could the technical booth now show the excerpt of the videotape

2 regarding Zasavica? We need to see a few details from the beginning of

3 the tape to see whether it has anything to do with what we've just been

4 talking about.

5 MR. DI FAZIO: Does this have an exhibit number?

6 JUDGE MUMBA: The map?

7 MR. DI FAZIO: The videotape, I mean.

8 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] D142/3, admitted when Dario Radic

9 testified.

10 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you.

11 [Videotape played]

12 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

13 Q. Mr. Tadic, you can comment while the tape is running.

14 A. This is way too far.

15 Q. All right. Let's rewind back to the beginning.

16 A. This is the road leading from Samac to Modrica, right here on the

17 right is where you turn to go to Zasavica.

18 Q. How far is this from the centre of Samac?

19 A. Some four to five [Realtime transcript read in error "45"]

20 kilometres. This is the bridge. You can tell that it's fairly narrow,

21 and it's difficult for large trucks to travel across that bridge.

22 We just passed the Loncaric house and then the house we can see

23 in front is the one that belongs to my friend Pero Tomic, this kiosk

24 didn't exist before, it was recently constructed. And here we turn to the

25 left, I showed that on the map just a minute ago and this road now will

Page 15438

1 take to us the church in Zasavica.

2 This is approximately how it looked in 1992, before the 17th. And

3 you can see what it looks like now.

4 Could we continue for just a bit longer? And then we will see a

5 church to the right, but before that, we'll see the house, I think that's

6 what it was, the house belonging to Zecevic, where one of the female

7 witnesses lived.

8 In this part of Zasavica, there were many refugees. We can see

9 the church now. Many refugees from central Bosnia from Sadilovac [phoen].

10 I believe that some of them are still living there nowadays. And also

11 some people who came as refugees from Odzak municipality.

12 We just missed the church, I think.

13 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

14 Q. I believe we've seen enough. These refugees that you mentioned,

15 who are still living in Zasavica, what is their ethnicity?

16 A. They are Serbs from central Bosnia, as I've said, from Sadilovac

17 area, Gostovic and other places, I don't know the names of all of them.

18 And there are also some refugees from Novi Grad and Dubica and other Serb

19 villages in Odzak municipality. I don't know what the situation is like

20 today but I know that my sister is still living there as a refugee, as are

21 some other people. The people who have returned, the Croats from

22 Zasavica, they got their properties back and they either rented them out

23 or they stayed in the village themselves, depending on the arrangements

24 they made.

25 Q. When I asked you whether you went to Zasavica, you told me no. I

Page 15439

1 was referring to the period after the arrest in August, but I will remind

2 you --

3 A. You don't have to remind me, I remember it very well.

4 Q. Shall I read it out?

5 A. No, you don't have to. On one occasion, when a family named

6 Hodzic from Samac was allowed to cross over the Croatian territory in

7 order to go to France, as their daughter lived in France and was a

8 physician there, their daughter managed, through Marko Bozanovic, to get

9 her mother and sister out, because Marko Bozanovic had some relations with

10 one of these daughters that went to France. So he asked me to bring the

11 Hodzic family to Dragalic because they had a permit issued to them. I was

12 on good terms with Hodzics -- the Hodzic family. Their son worked at

13 school with me.

14 Q. My question was whether you went to Zasavica.

15 A. Yes, I did. On that occasion, I went to Zasavica to the house of

16 a man where she resided. She got ready, as did her daughter, and based on

17 the papers that I had received from the Red Cross, I took them. I drove

18 them, to Dragalic where their daughter from France was waiting and they

19 departed for France.

20 Q. Was that in the summer of 1992, as you stated in the interview?

21 A. That was in 1992. There are documents confirming this. I don't

22 remember the date, didn't stick in my mind, but I think it was summer of

23 1992 because the weather was fine.

24 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Excuse me, Mr. Lukic, just from the point of view

25 of clarity of the transcript, page 102, line 20, you asked Mr. Tadic how

Page 15440

1 far Zasavica is from the centre of Samac. The answer on line 21, I

2 believe I heard Mr. Tadic say four to five kilometres but the transcript

3 says 45. Could you just clarify whether it's four to five or 45?

4 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Let's have the witness say.

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Four to five kilometres. I never

6 measured the distance but some four or perhaps five kilometres.

7 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Thank you. That's what I heard you say too.

8 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

9 Q. Mr. Tadic, I would like now to turn to several exchanges. The

10 first one I'm interested in is the next one in the chronological order on

11 the 4th of September, 1992.

12 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could the witness please be shown

13 document D3/3?

14 Q. Do you remember which exchange it was? Do you remember any

15 specific details? We mentioned the witness called Zvonko Susak but rather

16 not witness but an individual with that name. We mentioned him. We

17 mentioned the communication centre, and before -- while we are getting the

18 document, do you remember something related to his father that you could

19 tell us about?

20 A. Zvonko Susak, as I've already said, was wounded in late June,

21 1992, when his father was killed. He was unable to locate his father's

22 corpse, and in 2000, when I was at home, he came to see me, asking me to

23 assist him in that endeavour. Since I had some information about the

24 people who were there at the time, they were the people from Novi Grad, I

25 attempted, with a lot of difficulties, to try and locate this. I used

Page 15441

1 another man to establish contacts with Croats. I promised I wouldn't

2 reveal his identity. And then I said I would disclose it to him. So this

3 is how it all came about and he took me to a site, that was perhaps some

4 several square metres large. Later on I showed the site to Zvonko who

5 started digging there and he found his father's body which he later

6 buried.

7 Q. Would you please take a look at this document, now?

8 MR. DI FAZIO: If Your Honours please, could Mr. Tadic specify

9 when in 2000 he spoke to this man?

10 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This was when I was on provisional

12 release, in Samac. This is when he came to see me. And this is when I

13 talked to him.

14 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

15 Q. Please tell us the people on this list, we've heard a lot of

16 testimony regarding that. Did all of these people have to declare their

17 will to cross over at the exchange site or not?

18 A. All of them had to declare whether they wanted to cross over or

19 not. That was the typical procedure. We can see that here on this

20 document, where it says that Vukovic, Stipo refused or did not declare

21 his will. Juric, Mato; Cosic, Alija. Juric, Mato is a man from Zasavica.

22 He also declared his will. He remained the -- in Zasavica throughout the

23 entire war and is there nowadays. This other person is from Zasavica as

24 well. I know these people also. They stated that they wished to cross

25 over. Grga Abramovic is on the list of people who were not allowed to

Page 15442

1 leave Samac. This has to do with the document we discussed a little bit

2 ago.

3 Q. Mr. Tadic, let's be more specific. You said that these people had

4 to state their will?

5 A. Yes. These people had to declare whether they wished to cross

6 over to the Croatian side or not and they said that they did not wish to

7 go to the Croatian side and returned back to Samac and then I've just told

8 you that this man is from Zasavica and is still living there today as are

9 other people listed here who are still living in Samac today. I mentioned

10 Grga Abramovic on purpose because his name was on the other list we just

11 recently discussed and he's living in Holland today.

12 Q. Thank you. I would now ask that the witness be shown document PDB

13 51/3.

14 Very briefly, are these the persons who on that occasion were

15 handed over by the HVO commission, that is the people who crossed over to

16 your side, and what is their ethnicity?

17 A. These are Serbs who crossed over to our side. All of them are

18 marked with a plus. None of them went back.

19 Q. Can we be given a number for this document?

20 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.

21 THE REGISTRAR: This will be Exhibit D159/3 and ter for the

22 B/C/S.

23 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Excuse me, Mr. Lukic, Mr. Tadic, with respect to

24 this particular document, D159/3 ter, you say that all of them are marked

25 with a plus, none of them went back. With respect, though, to them all

Page 15443

1 being marked with a plus, at least on the Xerox copy I have, a few, such

2 as number 6, Mr. Branko, number 7, Mr. Pero, number 9, Mr. Jovo Ninkovic,

3 et cetera, are marked with minuses and a couple of others as well, not

4 with pluses. And in fact one person, Mr. Savo Savic has neither a plus

5 nor a minus.

6 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

7 Q. Mr. Tadic, I will read the names.

8 A. May I see the document again? Because I know all the people on

9 that list, down to the last man. And I can tell you about each one of

10 them.

11 JUDGE WILLIAMS: I think it was just the question you said they

12 are all marked with a plus, that is the thing that is at odds with what's

13 in front of us.

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Maybe I didn't pay enough attention,

15 and now I can say that I didn't pay attention to the pluses, but I know

16 Branko Mikanovic very well.

17 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Tadic, I think to make the whole story short,

18 the point is you said that you didn't pay attention to the pluses. Your

19 evidence is that all these people listed were exchanged and were received

20 by your side. That is your evidence, is it?

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] All these people crossed over to our

22 side, Savo Savic arrived in the next exchange, not in this one. He

23 arrived in the next exchange, but all of these people crossed over to the

24 Serbian side. So that all the people on this list, I know them personally

25 and they all crossed over to the Serbian side.

Page 15444

1 JUDGE MUMBA: Very well.

2 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

3 Q. Before I move on to the next exchange list, I will just put a

4 question to you concerning something we heard about before this Tribunal.

5 Do you know whether there were any situations where people who were

6 exchanged or people from the commissions asked you to send them some of

7 their things? And what did you do about this?

8 A. This happened quite often. Families or people who had left

9 earlier through the commission sent messages, packages, or things that had

10 sentimental value for them. This was no secret. And at the demarcation

11 lines, we usually inspected the things to see what it was that was being

12 taken over, but we allowed this all to pass through, and we would tell

13 people what sort of things they were allowed to send so that we could

14 avoid being brought into an embarrassing situation.

15 Q. Do you remember taking some personal belongings to the family of

16 Juro Krajnovic and what was your relation with that family?

17 A. I often took Juro Krajnovic things prepared for him by his

18 father-in-law, Djordje Ninkovic, and even Djordje himself accompanied me

19 several times to the demarcation line to see Juro. And to talk about

20 their situation, to exchange their views. I have known Juro for a long

21 time, I knew him for 20 years and more although he's considerably younger

22 than me. For a time, he was the director of the Mladost company which was

23 across the road from my house. And I remember that my daughter went to

24 university in Zagreb at the faculty of technology, where she studied the

25 technology of garment making or clothing.

Page 15445

1 Q. Well, to shorten things, can you just tell us about your relation

2 with this Krajnovic?

3 A. We were on friendly terms, on good terms.

4 Q. How did it come about that his family went to be exchanged with

5 him and were they exchanged in the first exchange, as witness Drljacic,

6 Hajra said?

7 A. No, they didn't go to the first exchange. I think it was in

8 September, either on the 16th or the 18th. At any rate in mid-September,

9 that was when they left and that may have been the fourth or fifth

10 exchange. And how this situation arose, I could explain briefly. At the

11 exchange that took place around the 15th or 16th of September, nobody from

12 Samac went to be exchanged. There was only me as a negotiator, because I

13 wanted to establish some details about an exchange. We had already

14 finalised our lists. The lists that we had discussed previously. And

15 obtained approval, and the only thing that was left to do was to establish

16 a date for the exchange. However, from Doboj, they brought some people

17 who were to be exchanged, that they had agreed upon with the Croats, and

18 then there was a hitch, because four people didn't want to cross over to

19 the other side, four Muslims who had arrived from Doboj, they refused to

20 cross over to the other side. And then there was a holdup and the

21 exchange almost failed. There was some members of the international

22 community there, I seem to remember, and this man was very persistent and

23 there was a lot of discussion, and this went on until around midnight.

24 I had no influence on these talks because I was not included, but

25 then I suggested that we should bring four men from the list we had

Page 15446

1 already agreed upon and that rather than waiting for the next date, we

2 should bring the first four men on our list, neither Mijo nor I paid

3 attention to who these people were, we simply said well, the first four

4 names on our list. We could just as well have said the last four names.

5 And then the international police guaranteed that this would take place,

6 and then this exchange took place, the one that we had waited for until

7 midnight. And because we had guarantees for the next exchange, the only

8 problem was to bring these four people on the list, Juro Krajnovic and

9 three other Croats.

10 Q. Does this mean that at the time you already had the approval of

11 the police, the SUP in Samac, for these people to be exchanged?

12 A. Yes, everything had already been agreed on except the date of

13 their exchange. The list had already been completed, and all that was

14 left to do was to agree on a convenient date, convenient to both sides,

15 for the exchange.

16 Q. Go on, yes.

17 A. Because only four men were going to be exchanged, a van was used,

18 but a man's wife, Goja, who is a Serb, came along, and she insisted

19 ongoing too. She wanted to go with her husband, and because there were no

20 obstacles to this, I went to the Red Cross to get a document for her, and

21 this was verified by the Red Cross, so she left with her husband and their

22 two children. The international police was waiting for us there.

23 Q. Well, this is not important. The witness Hajra Drljacic said

24 before this Court that you took some money from the Krajnovic family for

25 this exchange.

Page 15447

1 A. I never took any money from the Krajnovic family or anyone else

2 but we are now talking about the Krajnovic family. I didn't take any

3 money. This had been agreed on and later on, I remained on very good

4 terms with this Krajnovic and his entire family, and we saw each other

5 very often and his father-in-law's patron saint's day, she said they were

6 one of the first families to leave Samac but in fact, they left only in

7 mid-September, and this is a fabrication just as the fabrication about

8 money.

9 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Is it time to break for today, Your

10 Honour?

11 JUDGE MUMBA: We have half a minute.

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I suggest that we continue until

13 7.00.

14 JUDGE MUMBA: Unfortunately we can't get the supporting services

15 beyond this hour, especially the interpretation services. We could only

16 go up to this time. Otherwise, if the services were available, we could

17 certainly have gone up to 7.00. We will adjourn now and continue

18 tomorrow.

19 Mr. Lukic I wanted to know how long are you going to take before

20 you end up your examination-in-chief?

21 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Around two hours. It may be a little

22 more or a little less but I will do my best. I will go through the

23 exchanges and try to finish by the first break tomorrow. I will stick to

24 specific exchanges and avoid going into details.

25 JUDGE MUMBA: Very well.

Page 15448

1 MR. DI FAZIO: If Your Honours please, perhaps to assist the

2 Chamber, I wonder if other Defence counsel might indicate how long they

3 expect to be, if they can give such an indication.

4 JUDGE MUMBA: Not the accuseds, no.

5 MR. DI FAZIO: Very well, thank you.

6 JUDGE MUMBA: It's the witnesses.

7 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes.

8 JUDGE MUMBA: The Court will rise.

9 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at

10 4.31 p.m., to be reconvened on Wednesday,

11 the 19th day of February, 2003, at 9.00 a.m.

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