Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 16383

1 Monday, 10 March 2003

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 9.03 a.m.

5 JUDGE MUMBA: Good morning. Please call the case.

6 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. This is case number

7 IT-95-9-T, the Prosecutor versus Simic and others.

8 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. We are continuing with cross-examination by

9 the Prosecution of Mr. Savo Popovic.

10 Yes. We have to wait for the witness. I'm sure he's still coming

11 in.

12 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

13 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. I'm informed we have to wait a few minutes for

14 the connection to be made.

15 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours --

16 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Lukic.

17 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can I please use this opportunity

18 to -- I have just received the last two statements from the Translation

19 Unit, the bis 92 statements, so we would please like the opportunity now

20 for witnesses Djordje Tubakovic and Stojan Damjanovic to hand in their

21 statements. So if Mr. Usher could please hand out the documents to the

22 Prosecution and the Trial Chamber. The first statement is a bis 92

23 statement by witness Djordje Tubakovic.

24 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Can we have the number, for identification

25 only.

Page 16384

1 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

2 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. We will get the numbers later. You can go

3 ahead with the next statement.

4 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. The last 92 bis witness

5 whose statement we would like to give the Chamber is a statement by Stojan

6 Damjanovic. We have now disclosed all 92 bis statements as concern the

7 defence of Miroslav Tadic.

8 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you.

9 MR. WEINER: Your Honour --

10 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Weiner.

11 MR. WEINER: Would it be better to deal with the Simeunovic

12 witness now, the live witness, and get that completed? It's just some

13 re-cross-examination and re-direct, and then finish with this sometime

14 later this morning?

15 MR. LAZAREVIC: Yes. Maybe if I may address. This is

16 unfortunately not possible, because having in mind that we have this

17 witness on videolink, we advise the Victims and Witness Section to bring

18 Mr. Simeunovic only after 10.00. So he's not here at the moment. It's a

19 good suggestion, but we did not really have the idea that this is going to

20 work.

21 JUDGE MUMBA: I think we'll wait. We'll wait another few minutes

22 and see if we can get connected.

23 THE REGISTRAR: [In Belgrade] Good morning. We are trying to

24 resolve a problem. It shouldn't take more than a couple of minutes.

25 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you.

Page 16385

1 I wanted to ask the Prosecution: On these two statements under

2 Rule 92 bis, how long they think they need for the two statements? I

3 thought they would be able to indicate whether or not -- whatever their

4 position is by Wednesday.

5 MR. WEINER: That's fine, Your Honour.

6 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you.

7 MR. WEINER: No problem.

8 JUDGE MUMBA: We shall go ahead and get the numbers for the

9 statements.

10 THE REGISTRAR: The first statement and the witness's first and

11 last name is Djordje Tubakovic. That would be marked D184/3 and ter.

12 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. ID for identification.



15 THE REGISTRAR: And the next statement, the witness's first and

16 last name, Stojan Damjanovic would be marked as D185/3 and ter ID.

17 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you.

18 [The witness entered court]


20 [Witness testifies via videolink]

21 [Witness answered through interpreter]

22 THE REGISTRAR: [In Belgrade] I think that for the moment we can

23 start with the witness.

24 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Good morning, Mr. Popovic. We shall continue

25 with cross-examination by the Prosecution.

Page 16386

1 Please, you may sit down.

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.

3 Cross-examined by Mr. Weiner: [Continued]

4 Q. Good morning, Mr. Popovic. You testified last Thursday --

5 A. Good morning.

6 Q. Thank you. You testified last Thursday that 16 non-Serb civilians

7 were murdered at Crkvina; isn't that correct?

8 A. I'm sorry. I didn't get it. 60? Did you say 60.

9 Q. No. 16, 1-6.

10 A. I didn't testify as to the number. I said that I was not present,

11 and I didn't count, as has been suggested.

12 Q. Well, you testified that a number of non-Serb men or civilians

13 were murdered at Crkvina; isn't that correct?

14 A. What I said is that we had information that a heinous crime had

15 been committed.

16 Q. Yes. You had information and you used the term horrendous, that

17 there was a horrendous event and that a number of non-Serb men were

18 killed; isn't that correct?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. And in a small municipality such as Samac, the murder of a number

21 of men is a major event. You referred to it as a horrendous event.

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And you learned of this a few days after it occurred. That's what

24 you testified to.

25 A. Yes. Yes, that's what I said.

Page 16387

1 Q. And the Crisis Staff, you said, also learned about this a few days

2 after it occurred.

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. And due to its significance and awfulness, or if you want to say

5 disgusting nature of killing a number of people, it wasn't hard to learn

6 about this event; isn't that correct?

7 A. Well, it was kept secret, and that's why the true information

8 never reached the Crisis Staff.

9 Q. Sir, isn't it true that due to the horrendous nature of the event,

10 people knew all about this, or people knew that it had occurred, a number

11 of non-Serb civilians were killed in Crkvina? Isn't that true, sir?

12 A. I'm sorry. I don't think I've understood the question.

13 Q. Isn't it true that due to the horrendous nature and the fact that

14 a large number of people were killed or murdered, it was common knowledge

15 that this incident had occurred in Crkvina?

16 A. I emphasised a moment ago that the information concerning this

17 horrendous crime was eventually found out several days later. That's when

18 I found out about it, and I said that several days later we were told that

19 there was an investigation into the crime.

20 Q. Yes, sir. And several days later, you said a few days later

21 previously, people knew about it because it was a notorious event. People

22 knew about it, including the Crisis Staff, a few or several days later;

23 isn't that correct?

24 A. I've said that already. Yes.

25 Q. Now, you testified that the Crisis Staff learned, a few days

Page 16388

1 later, about this event. Was this -- and that this was a subject of

2 discussion at the Crisis Staff. At how many Crisis Staff meetings in May

3 was this matter discussed? Two, three, four, five? How many meetings?

4 A. It's very difficult for me to answer this now how many meetings

5 exactly. After those events, I found out that there had been an

6 investigation, both by the civilian and by the military authorities. As

7 far as I know, the public security station was in charge of that, and the

8 military authorities too. I had no further information as to what they

9 had done and how they had gone about the investigation, what the procedure

10 was.

11 Q. No, sir. My question is: How many Crisis Staff meetings? Was it

12 more than one that this matter was discussed? More than one, sir?

13 A. I can't be very accurate on this, whether it was at one or two or

14 more of the meetings. It has been a long time, too long a time, perhaps,

15 for me to specify.

16 Q. Now, sir, at this meeting or the meetings when this matter was

17 discussed, do you recall if Blagoje Simic said anything about this

18 incident?

19 A. As far as I know, he insisted energetically for the crime to be

20 investigated and for the perpetrators to be brought to justice.

21 Q. What about Simeon Simic, who was the press or information officer

22 for the Crisis Staff? Did he have any comments, since this was a very --

23 since this was a major or a significant matter for Bosanski Samac? Did

24 Simeon Simic say anything about it?

25 A. Now, as to which of the members of the Crisis Staff said what,

Page 16389

1 it's very difficult for me to recall precisely. I did not keep any

2 personal record of the meetings which could assist me now to say exactly

3 who said what. But I know that there was a condemnation of that crime and

4 that we were shocked by what had taken place.

5 Q. And when you say we were shocked, that includes all the members of

6 the Crisis Staff: Simeon Simic, Bozo Ninkovic, who was assisting Simeon

7 Simic and was also assisting on technical matters, Miroslav Tadic, all the

8 members were shocked and condemned it; isn't that correct?

9 A. Yes. Yes.

10 Q. Now, even though you indicate that you condemn this incident, were

11 any letters written to the military, the republican MUP, the SUP, the

12 Republika Srpska government, concerning this incident or the protection of

13 prisoners? Were any letters written after this incident?

14 A. Well, I didn't take any notes at those meetings. That was for the

15 technical secretary or the lawyer who was involved. Whether they wrote

16 letters to anyone or not, I can't say now. I can't remember. But I know

17 that any conclusions from those meetings that were held were documented,

18 and if that was forwarded to anyone in that case, they should have it, the

19 army, the government, or the police.

20 Q. Blagoje Simic has testified on the 21st of November, 2002, that no

21 letters were ever sent in April, May, June, or July about the safety of

22 the prisoners, no orders were issued, no letters were ever written. Do

23 you agree with that?

24 A. Well, Blagoje Simic was the president, and he was best placed to

25 know. Whether he signed anything or not, whether anything was forwarded

Page 16390

1 to anyone or not. If he said that nothing was, then that means nothing

2 was ever sent. I was just a member who was present. I didn't dictate

3 the documents that were drawn up.

4 Q. So let's get this -- I just want to make sure this is correct.

5 You've testified and Blagoje Simic has testified that numerous letters

6 were sent to help the Serb prisoners in Odzak, but no letters were ever

7 sent by the Crisis Staff to help the non-Serb prisoners in Samac; isn't

8 that correct, sir?

9 A. Well, at first, in Odzak, in the Odzak area, there were about

10 4.000 Serb detainees, mostly women and children, and that's why an appeal

11 was sent out to all the factors to assist in liberating those people so

12 that there would be no consequences.

13 Q. Sir, the question was that letters were sent out on behalf of the

14 Serb prisoners being held in Odzak, but no letters were sent on behalf of

15 the non-Serb prisoners being held in Samac; isn't that correct?

16 A. As far as I know, in Samac, a number of persons were detained and

17 questioned as to whether they had taken part in armament, whether they had

18 been members of any of the units, and I don't know why anyone should

19 request an intervention by any of the international organisations, because

20 that was simply the jurisdiction of the public security station and that's

21 what the procedure was.

22 Q. Sir, my question is -- you can answer it yes or no: Letters were

23 sent out on behalf of the Serbs of Odzak by the Crisis Staff, but the

24 Crisis Staff sent out no letters to any public or international agency on

25 behalf of the non-Serbs of Samac that were being detained; is that

Page 16391

1 correct?

2 A. Yes, we did send a number of things in connection with the

3 International Red Cross. But I think also those over there, when there

4 was an international exchange, contacts were -- contact was made with the

5 International Red Cross. Now, how exactly this was done, whether letters

6 or appeals were sent out, I don't know, because that wasn't part of my

7 job. So I can't specify as to what and how exactly was done.

8 Q. Sir, you're not aware of any letters that were sent out on behalf

9 of the non-Serbs -- the non-Serbs of Samac that were being detained,

10 letters concerning problems relating to their safety? No letters were

11 ever sent out, according to Blagoje Simic. Is that also your view: No

12 letters were sent out by --

13 MR. PANTELIC: Your Honour, it's rather a suggestion to my learned

14 friend not the objection. For the sake of the clarity of the transcript,

15 maybe he can make reference of the page number of what exactly Blagoje

16 Simic said and when, so that we can follow the accuracy. Because you

17 mentioned that he testified on the 21st of November last year and on

18 numerous occasions. I believe for the -- in order to clarify that, we

19 have to have a number of transcript, page number, if it's possible.

20 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. I'm sure the Prosecution can --

21 MR. WEINER: Page 12583.

22 Q. Sir, my question is again: Isn't it true that no letter was sent

23 out by the Crisis Staff of Samac on behalf of the detained prisoners in

24 Samac relating to their safety or their health, no letters were ever

25 sent? That's what Blagoje Simic testified to. Isn't that correct, sir?

Page 16392

1 A. I can't speak on Blagoje Simic's behalf, whether what he said was

2 true or not.

3 Q. Well, your memory: Do you recall any letters being sent out in

4 April, May, or June, relating to the protection, health, and safety of the

5 prisoners of the non-Serb prisoners being held in Samac? Do you recall

6 any letters ever being sent? And when I say "being sent," by the Crisis

7 Staff.

8 A. As I've said, I can't specify.

9 Q. All right. Let's move on, sir. You testified last Thursday about

10 an unprompted or spontaneous meeting which occurred at the PIK factory,

11 the PIK company, and there was talk at that meeting about the need for a

12 lawyer for the Crisis Staff. Do you recall that?

13 A. As far as I know, Mr. Mirko Jovanovic was the president of the

14 Executive Board, proposed a lawyer, Mitar Mitrovic, as they were both from

15 Obudovac, they knew each other well.

16 Q. That's correct, sir. Mirko Jovanovic, who was an SDS member,

17 proposed Mitar Mitrovic, who was also an SDS member; isn't that correct?

18 A. I do not know whether he was an SDS member or not.

19 Q. Sir, you testified last week, at page 16306, that both Mirko

20 Jovanovic and Mitar Mitrovic were SDS members. Do you wish to maintain

21 that testimony or do you want to recant that at this point?

22 A. It is possible that he was an SDS member, but as far as my memory

23 serves me, he may have been a radical. From these two options, I don't

24 know whether he was SDS or radical. I don't know. Perhaps at the time

25 when he was proposed which party he belonged to at that very moment when

Page 16393

1 he was proposed, whether he was in the SDS or whether he was in the

2 Radical Party, I don't know. But it would be one of these two.

3 Q. Sir, last week you testified: Mr. Mirko Jovanovic, who was a

4 member of the SDS, and Mitar, as technical secretary, was a member of the

5 SDS. That was your testimony. Do you still maintain that both of those

6 individuals were members of the SDS or do you wish to change your

7 testimony? Maybe something happened over the weekend that would make you

8 change your testimony.

9 A. No, no. I do not wish to change my testimony. No.

10 Q. Now, sir, you testified that you attended the Serbian Municipal

11 Assembly meeting of March 28th, 1992. Do you recall that? Remember in

12 Obudovac, where they had the elections? Do you recall that, sir?

13 A. I was present as an observer.

14 Q. And sir, isn't it true at that meeting on March 28th, 1992, Mitar

15 Mitrovic was appointed the secretary of the Serbian Municipal Assembly of

16 Samac, on that date? Isn't that true, sir?

17 A. I didn't take part. I was not a deputy of that assembly. I was

18 an observer. I attended. I was present in the hall, among the others who

19 came to see what was happening. So I can't say or claim 100 per cent what

20 whoever from the elected got which appointment, whether they were elected

21 as the secretary of the municipality.

22 MR. WEINER: May the witness be shown Exhibit P124 ter, please.

23 Q. Sir, can you see that document?

24 A. No.

25 Q. Page 19 in the English and page 9 in the B/C/S. Can you see it

Page 16394

1 now, sir, section 10?

2 A. No.

3 Q. Well, sir, let me read to you from the Official Gazette of the

4 municipality of Samac, the same one that we were looking at last week:

5 "Mitar Mitrovic B.L., is hereby appointed secretary of the Samac

6 Municipal Assembly." That's Article 1.

7 Article 2: "This notice shall be published in the official organ

8 of the municipality." Date: March 28th, 1992, signed by Dusan Tanasic,

9 vice-president of the Municipal Assembly.

10 Based on what I just read to you, Mitar Mitrovic was appointed the

11 secretary of the Samac Municipal Assembly three weeks prior to that April

12 meeting that you talked about; isn't that correct?

13 A. From this decision, that can be seen, but I don't know when that

14 decision was compiled, and probably because of that, Mirko Jovanovic as

15 the president of the Executive Board, proposed Mr. -- this gentleman to

16 come and work.

17 Q. But all I'm saying, sir, is Mitar Mitrovic was appointed as

18 secretary of the Serbian Municipal Assembly of Samac three weeks prior to

19 that meeting at the PIK; isn't that correct, based on what I read to you?

20 A. Well, yes, it's true.

21 Q. In fact, sir, were you aware, on the day prior to that meeting,

22 the day prior to that meeting which you attended on March 28th, the

23 Municipal Assembly, that in Sarajevo, Radovan Karadzic ordered that crisis

24 staffs be immediately established, and this was at the Serb Assembly:

25 " The moment you arrive in your municipalities, you must urgently

Page 16395

1 establish crisis staffs."

2 Were you aware of that statement by Radovan Karadzic on the 27th

3 of March, 1992, one day prior to the decision to establish the Crisis

4 Staff at the local Municipal Assembly?

5 A. No. I didn't know about that. I wasn't aware of such a decision

6 or an order that Karadzic furthered or forwarded --

7 MR. PANTELIC: Objection, Your Honour.

8 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Pantelic.

9 MR. PANTELIC: On the basis that to some extent this witness can

10 be misled by this question. Page 13, line 3, 4, and 5. Maybe it can be

11 rephrased, because otherwise it's unclear what my learned friend said one

12 day prior to the decision to establish the Crisis Staff. Which decision?

13 How he came to this conclusion? Maybe we can clarify that in the

14 question. The question was not so clear, you know.

15 MR. WEINER: Your Honour, counsel is taking the question out of

16 context. He doesn't look at the part on page 12 that's right in front of

17 it. But I'd be happy to clarify it a little bit too.


19 MR. WEINER: It's just taken out of context.

20 Q. Sir, Mr. Karadzic's speech was at the 14th assembly session of the

21 assembly of Serbian people in Bosnia-Herzegovina on March 27th, 1992, in

22 Sarajevo, and on that date, Radovan Karadzic said: "You must -- the

23 moment you arrive in your municipalities, you must urgently establish

24 crisis staffs." He said that in a speech to the delegates. And on the

25 following day, you know, as we discussed last week, that a decision was

Page 16396

1 made in Obudovac to establish a municipal Crisis Staff.

2 MR. PANTELIC: Objection, Your Honour. I think it's another sort

3 of manipulation of my learned friend. Where we have a document that in

4 Obudovac the decision was made to create a Serbian Crisis Staff, and

5 speaking of specifically date 28th of March because we are around that

6 date. So maybe, in fairness to this witness, if my learned friend has

7 some of this assumptions, he should show him where it says when it was

8 adopted and then he can elicit the answer from this witness.

9 MR. WEINER: Your Honour, we did that last week.

10 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Mr. Pantelic, this witness attended the

11 meetings. Most of these questions are within his knowledge, so let him

12 answer.

13 MR. PANTELIC: I understand, Your Honour. Thank you. But please,

14 he's speaking on page 13, line 25, that the decision was made in Obudovac

15 to establish a municipal Crisis Staff. And furthermore, he's relating to

16 the date of 27th of March. We all know that certain discussion was made

17 at the level of the Executive Board of the Serbian municipality, and it

18 was two weeks later than this day. It was prior to the outbreak of the

19 hostilities in the municipality. So my basis for my submission here and

20 objection is that my learned friend is trying to confuse the witness,

21 because there are two separate decisions of two separate organs, on two

22 separate dates. Thank you.

23 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Weiner, go ahead.

24 MR. WEINER: Thank you.

25 Q. Sir, let me read you Mr. Karadzic's statement: "We know that our

Page 16397

1 people have armed themselves. We don't know the various ways and means by

2 which this was done, but we do know that the people have enough weapons.

3 I must say, however, that we do not have paramilitary units. When you

4 return to your municipalities, especially the newly formed municipalities,

5 I ask you to do what you are required and entitled to do under the law.

6 The moment you arrive in your municipalities, you must urgently establish

7 crisis staffs."

8 Now, sir, you testified last week, or you agreed last week, based

9 on looking at the Official Gazette that, on March 28th a decision was made

10 to establish a Crisis Staff in Obudovac; isn't that correct, one day after

11 Radovan Karadzic's speech to the Assembly of Serbian People?

12 A. You've presented a decision of the Executive Board, and I've told

13 you about it. I was not present. I was not a member of the SDS or a

14 deputy. You have to put in the context of the Municipal Assembly, and

15 then I had the decision of the Executive Board presented to me. So what I

16 said --

17 Q. Sir, my question to you is: You testified last week -- you read

18 those articles at that meeting that you attended in Obudovac, where the

19 decision was made to establish a Crisis Staff, and that was -- that

20 decision was on the 28th of March, 1992. Isn't that one day after

21 Karadzic's speech on March 27th? Yes or no, sir.

22 A. I said that the first time -- that was the first time I saw such a

23 decision, and I cannot state here yes or no. And I said the last time the

24 same. I don't know why you're insisting now on it when I was not a

25 participant. I was not a deputy at this assembly to say whether I was or

Page 16398

1 not Executive Board member. I was not participating in the making of

2 decisions. I said the first time here, when it was presented to me,

3 that's when I saw such decisions. It's the first time here that I saw

4 such decisions.

5 Q. Sir, I'm not asking you if you were a member at that time. You

6 admitted that you had attended that meeting. So isn't it fair to say

7 that, based on what you read and what you observed, a plan was established

8 for the -- a plan was ruled on to establish a Crisis Staff on the 28th of

9 March, which was one day after Karadzic's speech? Isn't that correct?

10 A. No. I don't know about such a thing, and I cannot confirm that it

11 was like that.

12 Q. Let's move on, sir. You testified last week about your

13 brother-in-law, Colonel Mico Djordjevic [sic]; isn't that correct?

14 A. Yes. He's a relative of mine.

15 Q. And you testified that he was commander of the 2nd Posavina

16 Brigade sometime in May of 1992; isn't that correct?

17 A. Yes. Yes.

18 Q. And can you tell us: How old was he 11 years ago, when he

19 commanded the 2nd Posavina Brigade?

20 MR. PANTELIC: Just a correction to the transcript, because it

21 might be important. In page 16, line 16, instead of Djordjevic, it

22 should be Djurdjevic, D-J-U, et cetera. Because we have two almost

23 similar names here, Djordjevic Crni and Djurdjevic. So it might be of

24 importance to clarify this. Thank you.

25 JUDGE MUMBA: Very well. We should have the correct names,

Page 16399

1 actually.


3 Q. Could you tell us how old he was 11 years ago, sir?

4 A. He may have been in his 50s. Whether he was a couple of years

5 older or younger than that, I cannot tell you.

6 Q. Sir, he wasn't aged or elderly?

7 A. Well, he is about my age.

8 Q. At that time, he wasn't aged or elderly?

9 A. Well, depends how you look at it, really. A person who is in his

10 50s or 60s or 40s, whether that person is old or not old, or that person

11 has vitality or not. But let's say that he was not elderly.

12 Q. Thank you. And he wasn't feeble-minded or mentally incompetent,

13 sir; isn't that correct?

14 A. No, he was not.

15 Q. And sir, he was having no problems commanding the 2nd Posavina

16 Brigade due to his age; isn't that correct? He wasn't too old to command?

17 A. No, he wasn't.

18 Q. Now, sir, in fact, he was given another post as commander of the

19 1st Brigade in Brcko, which was much larger; isn't that correct?

20 A. Well, according to the establishment, it was probably like that.

21 That's what he told me. It was --

22 Q. I'm sorry. You said, "It was..." And I didn't get the last of

23 your statement, sir.

24 A. I said that for him it was to take over the command, over the 1st

25 Posavina Brigade, was a lot more important.

Page 16400

1 Q. Okay. Thank you. Now, in your Crisis Staff meetings you attended

2 in May and June and let's say early June of 1992, did Crisis Staff members

3 discuss any problems with Colonel Djurdjevic commanding his brigade, due

4 to his age? Was that ever discussed in the Crisis Staff among the Crisis

5 Staff members?

6 A. As far as I know, if I was present, it was never in relation to

7 his age, but there were certain problems that he brought up during a

8 visit, that there was a pressure from the side of Crni, and his henchmen.

9 Q. Sir, relating to age, strictly relating to age, were there any

10 issues before the Crisis Staff indicating that he was too old to command?

11 Did the Crisis Staff members among themselves discuss that at a meeting?

12 A. As far as I know, they didn't say that. Perhaps somebody said

13 that, but not while I was present, because, of course, we were related in

14 some way, so when I was present, nobody ever said a thing like that.

15 Q. Sir, did the Crisis Staff members, including yourself, Blagoje

16 Simic, ever contact Colonel Dencic and indicate that they were having

17 problems with Colonel Djurdjevic, Colonel Djurdjevic's command of the 2nd

18 Posavina Brigade, based on his age? Were any of those contacts made?

19 A. I did not, as far as I know -- we were not in contact with Mr.

20 Dencic. I never saw him. Personally, I never met him.

21 Q. Sir, well, you didn't, but did Blagoje Simic or any members of the

22 Crisis Staff go and meet with Colonel Dencic, relating to problems of

23 Colonel Djurdjevic's command of the 2nd Posavina Brigade, due to his

24 advanced age? Were there any of those types of meetings with Blagoje

25 Simic or Simeon Simic with Colonel Dencic, or any members of the Crisis

Page 16401

1 Staff that you're aware of?

2 A. I said last time in relation to this that here you have to not

3 take into consideration the Crisis Staff, because if Mr. Dencic gave him

4 an order to go to the 1st Posavina Brigade, that he was too old for the

5 2nd and not for this one, then I said that in this part of the

6 participation of changing the place of Mr. Djurdjevic, that was only

7 Stevan Todorovic who had taken part in that, and Crni and all the others.

8 Q. Sir, my question is: Did the members of the Crisis Staff,

9 including Blagoje Simic, a defendant in this case, or Miroslav Tadic, have

10 meetings with Colonel Dencic relating to problems of Colonel Djurdjevic

11 due to his advanced age was unable to command the 2nd Posavina Brigade?

12 Are you aware of any meetings of that type?

13 A. As far as I know, the answer is no, they didn't meet for that. It

14 is possible, though, that they did meet without telling me.

15 Q. Are you aware, sir -- we've had testimony in this case from the

16 defendant Blagoje Simic that he did in fact communicate with Colonel

17 Dencic and have a meeting with him. I'd like to read to you just a

18 section from the transcript of November 14th, 2002, at page 12300.

19 Q. Did you communicate with Colonel Dencic?

20 Blagoje Simic's answer: "Yes, once."

21 Q. And when was that and on what occasion?

22 A. It was -- it had to do with the visit in Ugljevik

23 and the pressure by the army too, that Colonel Djurdjevic, because of his

24 advanced age, was no longer able to command the army.

25 Q. And that was when, approximately?

Page 16402

1 A. I think it was in the period beginning of June.

2 Sir, did you attend that meeting with Blagoje Simic and Colonel

3 Dencic where problems relating to Colonel Djurdjevic were discussed

4 because of his advanced age, he was unable to command the 2nd Posavina

5 Brigade? Did you attend that meeting, sir?

6 A. No.

7 Q. And you weren't even aware of that meeting being held in Ugljevik?

8 A. No, I was not aware. The first I hear of it.

9 Q. And sir, isn't it a fact that there were other things that they

10 never told you that happened, just like that meeting? Not being an SDS

11 member, you weren't informed prior to April 17th about the different

12 policies and plans of the SDS; isn't that true, prior to April 17th?

13 A. I was not a member of the SDS; therefore, none of them informed me

14 as a member.

15 Q. So Blagoje Simic didn't discuss what orders he was receiving from

16 the SDS leadership, he didn't discuss that with you prior to April 17th?

17 A. No.

18 Q. Blagoje Simic didn't discuss with you what conversations he was

19 having with the SDS leadership prior to April 17th?

20 A. No.

21 Q. And you didn't know what, if any, conversations or meetings

22 Blagoje Simic was having with the SDS leadership prior to April 17th, did

23 you?

24 A. I'm not sure what you're referring to. Do you mean the municipal

25 leadership or a different level of leadership?

Page 16403

1 Q. The republican-level leadership: Karadzic, Krajisnik, Plavsic,

2 the SDS Main Board.

3 A. Well, I told you that I didn't take part in SDS party meetings,

4 the events surrounding the setting up, the establishment of the

5 municipality, I did follow, because I was interested, and I did attend

6 those meetings, but not the rest of their meetings.

7 Q. Sir, were you present in 1992 and 1993, when Blagoje Simic met or

8 spoke with Karadzic or General Mladic? Were you present for any meetings

9 or conversations?

10 MR. PANTELIC: Objection, Your Honour. Maybe this line of

11 questions could be rephrased in order not to establish certain unfair

12 positions.

13 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Pantelic, there is nothing wrong with this

14 question. Will you stop interrupting the proceedings. There is nothing

15 wrong with this question.

16 MR. PANTELIC: Your Honour --

17 JUDGE MUMBA: He is being asked whether he was present. That's

18 all.

19 MR. PANTELIC: Yes, but allegedly present, Your Honour.

20 JUDGE MUMBA: No, no.

21 MR. PANTELIC: Allegedly, that would be fair.

22 JUDGE MUMBA: The witness knows whether or not he was present and

23 he will be able to answer. Will you please keep quiet and just sit down.

24 Stop interrupting the proceedings.

25 MR. PANTELIC: Yes, Your Honour.

Page 16404


2 Q. Sir, were you present for any meetings or conversations between

3 Blagoje Simic and Radovan Karadzic or General Mladic in 1992 or 1993?

4 A. No, and I don't know whether they had meetings.

5 Q. Did Blagoje Simic ever inform you or other members of the Crisis

6 Staff about communications he had with the SDS Main Board or Serb

7 leadership?

8 A. At meetings of the Executive Board, no such information was made

9 public. That's as far as I can remember. This was ten years ago. I

10 don't think any such information was disclosed. If there had been indeed

11 any such information, this would have been kept within the limits of the

12 close circle of the SDS members, and I was myself not a member.

13 Therefore, I cannot be any more accurate than I've tried to be.

14 MR. PANTELIC: Intervention to the transcript. Page 22, line 12.

15 Maybe something which -- I don't know what the witness exactly said,

16 because the question was related to the Crisis Staff, and in his answer on

17 page 22, line 12, he's speaking about Executive Board. So maybe we can

18 clarify that.


20 Q. Sir, in your answer, you stated that at meetings of the Executive

21 Board, no such information was made public. Did you mean the Crisis

22 Staff, sir?

23 A. The Crisis Staff and the Executive Board were not the same thing.

24 Therefore, whether the Executive Board discussed this or had information

25 on it, because I was not a member of the Executive Board and I was not

Page 16405

1 familiar with their procedures and with the items discussed at their

2 meetings; therefore, that's why I'm saying that I cannot provide an answer

3 here.

4 Q. Sir, when Biljana Plavsic stated that the leaders of the SDS and

5 the Serb leaders provided direction to the municipal leaders, you can't

6 tell us what information they provided to the SDS leadership, because you

7 weren't part of the SDS in 1992 or 1993; isn't that correct? And I mean

8 the SDS municipal leadership of Samac.

9 A. Yes, that's correct.

10 Q. Since we're limited on time this morning, sir, let's move a little

11 bit ahead to Odzak. You testified that while you were a member of the

12 Crisis Staff, you were assigned to Odzak and you became a member of the

13 civilian military council; isn't that correct?

14 A. The Executive Council, yes.

15 MR. PANTELIC: And Your Honour, objection. I didn't hear that

16 this witness testified that he was a member of civilian military council.

17 He was a member of council of military administration, which is rather

18 different. So maybe my learned friend can be precise with the

19 constructions. And because he just provided me this morning one document,

20 and he can find it on -- it's internal page 03003199, where the -- there

21 is a translation that he was -- Mr. Popovic was president of council of

22 military administration, or military administration council, anyhow.

23 MR. WEINER: It's been referred to several different names, but

24 let's just refer to it as the council, just to move along.

25 Q. Sir, you indicated that you were a member of this council, this

Page 16406

1 military council; isn't that correct?

2 A. Yes. Yes, a member of the civilian council.

3 Q. And --

4 JUDGE MUMBA: Can you ask the witness -- he knows what the correct

5 name.


7 Q. Sir, what is the correct name of this council? We've had several

8 names, the civilian military council, the civilian war council, the

9 military council. What was the correct name, according to yourself?

10 A. The names that we used, military council, executive council,

11 civilian council. Because no document ever ascertained with accuracy, no

12 military administration document, as to what the name of the council

13 should actually be. There is no written document on that. The members of

14 the council simply gave it a name. We christened it, in a manner of

15 speaking, and we used those different names, in communication with other

16 people.

17 Q. Okay. Thank you. Now, sir, you were involved in economic affairs

18 on that council, sir, weren't you?

19 A. Yes, economic affairs, as far as the civilian sector is concerned.

20 Q. And also in that council was Simo Zaric, a defendant in this case?

21 A. Simo Zaric was added, that is, Simo Zaric and myself were told to

22 go to Odzak and that there we would join the work on organising civilian

23 life. This is the part of work that was assigned to me. And Simo had

24 civilian and military intelligence work. We were supposed to have those

25 areas of activity. And as far as I know, Simo established contact with

Page 16407

1 security organs of the Tactical Group, that is, in the area of

2 responsibility of the 1st Krajina Corps.

3 Q. Now --

4 A. That's what Simo did.

5 Q. Thank you. Now, you, sir, were more than just a council member.

6 You were the president or the head of that council; isn't that correct,

7 sir?

8 A. That's correct, but no one ever said or wrote that. They simply

9 came up to me and told me: You will head the council. Council will be

10 appointed to include delegates across the local communes, and that's how I

11 was promoted and became the president.

12 Q. Sir, other people, including Simo Zaric, have indicated that you

13 were the president or head of that council, so people were aware that you

14 were the head or president of that council; isn't that correct?

15 A. Yes, yes.

16 Q. Now --

17 A. That's correct.

18 Q. You held that position, you indicated, until the end of March.

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. And at that point you said you were discharged from that. Did you

21 serve as head of the council any time after March, say in April, May, or

22 June? Did you -- did they rename you head of that council after you were

23 discharged in March?

24 A. A new order came on the appointment of the military

25 administration, and the military administrators took over the whole

Page 16408

1 thing. You can see that the council at that time no longer existed. But

2 rather, we were distributed according to our sectors. My sector was

3 economy, another person had public utility, so the whole thing no longer

4 functioned.

5 Q. Now, okay. So there were no council meetings. You didn't attend

6 any meetings as council president after you were discharged; isn't that

7 correct?

8 A. We would be called by the new commander of the military

9 administration to attend meetings, but not all of us at once. He called

10 whoever he needed at a certain point in time. Then he would call the

11 person, talk to the person, and make certain agreements with that specific

12 person.

13 Q. Now, when you had these meetings, did you ever have meetings with

14 Blagoje Simic or any Crisis Staff members? Did they ever come to Odzak?

15 We're talking in 1993. You mentioned you saw Blagoje Simic two or three

16 times in 1992. Was Blagoje Simic there at meetings or visiting you in

17 1993?

18 A. I know that the new commanders, they kept changing, and they would

19 go to the seats of the municipalities, Samac, Modrica, or Brod. They

20 would talk with the Executive Council and with the heads of

21 municipalities. I'm not sure if Blagoje ever came in 1993. I can't be

22 positive. Maybe he did, maybe he didn't. But as I no longer held that

23 sort of a position in the new administration, I can't claim with any

24 certainty whether he came in 1993 or not. Personally, I didn't see him.

25 Q. Sir, I'd like to have you look at a document.

Page 16409

1 MR. WEINER: If we can show it over the ELMO.

2 Q. Sir, I'd like you to look at in a second the notes of Colonel

3 Ratomir Simic, who you mentioned in your testimony on Thursday, and it

4 relates to a meeting on the 12th of May, 1993. Can you see it,

5 sir? Can you see it in front of you? I'm not sure if it's working?

6 THE REGISTRAR: [In Belgrade] Is it possible [inaudible] --

7 A. I'm looking.


9 Q. Do you see the top where it says "12th of May, 1993," the third

10 line down? Do you see the list of participants, the nine participants in

11 the meeting, and number 2 is Savo Popovic, head of the Odzak military

12 administration council?

13 A. President of the council.

14 Q. Okay. And then it says "Blagoje Simic, president of the Samac

15 municipality." Do you see that?

16 A. Yes, yes, I do.

17 Q. Sir, so you were president of the Odzak military administration

18 council after March, after the end of March 1993?

19 A. Formally, yes.

20 Q. And Blagoje Simic did attend this meeting with you. Do you recall

21 this meeting?

22 A. Now that I look at this document, yes, you can clearly see that

23 there was a meeting. But it's been a long time, so I'm afraid I can't be

24 very accurate. This means that there was a meeting, obviously.

25 Q. Well, sir, can you look at page 2?

Page 16410

1 MR. WEINER: Can I see the B/C/S equivalent, please.

2 Q. Sir, I'd ask you to look at -- it looks like the first full

3 paragraph on that page, or it could be the second paragraph on yours. It

4 says: "In answer to General Subotic's question whether Odzak had been

5 destroyed after the liberation and whether it could be settled with five

6 to six thousand refugees, Savo Popovic replied that 80 to 90 per cent of

7 the houses in Serbian villages had been destroyed, while in the Croatian

8 villages, some houses remained intact, and building material should be

9 taken from them, while the rest should be levelled to the ground."

10 Do you recall saying that to General Subotic?

11 A. I didn't say that. These are minutes, and I don't know what the

12 person was taking the minutes said. I never saw this, nor did the person

13 who was taking the minutes show me anything. I was talking about Serbian

14 villages, you see, and said that Croatian villages were not levelled to

15 the ground. I think that's a very arbitrary wording.

16 Q. Because obviously, if the Croat homes were levelled, they couldn't

17 be rebuilt or repaired; isn't that correct, sir, and these people could

18 not come back?

19 A. Both Serbian and Croatian were destroyed, and yet, people came

20 back. People repaired their houses. People brought along construction

21 materials and they mended the buildings.

22 Q. But if you level the Croat homes to the ground, you couldn't

23 repair them; isn't that correct, sir?

24 A. Well, you know, I didn't myself take any part in the reparation of

25 those buildings, so I can't talk from personal experience, because I was

Page 16411

1 not the one destroying the buildings or the one issuing the orders for

2 these buildings to be destroyed.

3 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Pantelic.

4 MR. PANTELIC: Yes, Your Honour. Objecting. It's for the third

5 time that this witness said that, number one, he was not -- he didn't say

6 that, that probably it's a construction of Colonel Simic. Secondly, that

7 he was not involved in that, so I don't know why --

8 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Pantelic, why are you interrupting? The witness

9 was there. The witness knows what he's talking about. Let the witness

10 answer, that's all.

11 MR. PANTELIC: Yes. I let him to answer Your Honour --

12 JUDGE MUMBA: Just sit down. The questions are very clear. The

13 witness is able to say whether he said anything like that which is

14 recorded in this document. What's your problem? Mr. Weiner go ahead.

15 MR. WEINER: Thank you, Your Honour.

16 Q. Now, sir, Colonel Ratomir Simic, who drafted this document, he was

17 the commander of the TG 1 military unit in Odzak; isn't that correct?

18 A. He was the head of the military administration and the commander

19 of the TG.

20 Q. Thank you.

21 MR. WEINER: Your Honours, I'd like to move the admission of this

22 document.


24 THE REGISTRAR: This document is marked P169 and ter.

25 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Weiner, are you continuing or you are through?

Page 16412

1 MR. WEINER: Yes.

2 Q. Sir, you talked about people returning to Odzak. I have a few

3 questions. Isn't it true that there were once thousands of non-Serbs,

4 Muslims and Croats, living in Odzak, actually, tens of thousands were

5 living in Odzak prior to July of -- maybe June or July of 1992? There

6 were tens of thousands, or over 20.000, non-Serbs, meaning Muslims and

7 Croats, living in Odzak; isn't that correct?

8 A. In the area of the Odzak municipality, there were both Croats and

9 Muslims, and Serbs living.

10 THE INTERPRETER: The interpretation didn't get the last part of

11 the answer.


13 Q. And there were thousands --

14 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Weiner, the interpreters said they didn't get

15 the last part. Can the witness repeat his last answer, please.


17 Q. Sir, the interpreters didn't receive the last part of your answer,

18 could you repeat that again, please.

19 A. I said that Croats and Muslims did live in Odzak municipality, but

20 as far as I know, the Muslims only lived in the town itself.

21 Q. But sir, weren't there -- regardless of where they lived in the

22 municipality, weren't there thousands of non-Serbs living in that

23 municipality?

24 A. Yes. How many exactly, I can't tell you off the top of my head,

25 if there were 15 or 20,000 of them. But yes, there were quite many, and

Page 16413

1 they were the predominant population in Odzak municipality.

2 Q. And you agree, sir, that many of them, a large number, left as the

3 Serb forces advanced and took over the town?

4 A. As far as I know, before the Serb forces came, for a couple of

5 days, both the Croats and Muslims left the area of Odzak municipality,

6 perhaps on orders by the HVO or another unit.

7 Q. And do you agree that those who stayed, those Muslims and Croats

8 who stayed, were forced out or killed by Serb forces? Do you agree with

9 that statement?

10 A. I said, according to my information, when the units of the 1st

11 Krajina Corps came in, there were no Croats or Muslims there. Therefore,

12 we can't talk about the use of force, if they had left the area, taking

13 with them even a number of Serbs who were in prisons or camps. They took

14 them to Brod and to other places in Croatia.

15 Q. Sir, so you don't agree with that statement. Do you agree with

16 the statement that the other non-Serbs were forced out after the Serbian

17 population returned? Do you agree with that statement, sir?

18 A. Serbs began to return after several days, following the release

19 and the exchange that was done with the Croatian forces. Therefore, Serb

20 retainees could not expel Croats or Muslims who were no longer there in

21 the area.

22 Q. Sir, do you agree that by the date of the signing of Dayton, out

23 of the thousands or the large population of non-Serbs, few, if any,

24 remained by that time?

25 A. After Dayton, in late 1993, I practically took up another

Page 16414

1 position. I was a director in a company, and I was no longer involved and

2 I no longer knew what happened as far as that area was concerned.

3 Q. We'll get back to that in probably about a minute, but let me ask

4 you this: You know Milan Simic, who was a defendant in this case? Do you

5 know Milan?

6 A. Milan Simic, yes.

7 Q. And he was an economist and president of the Samac Executive

8 Board?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. And you testified that you had contact while you were on the

11 council with the Samac Executive Board; isn't that correct?

12 A. I said that, as far as subordination or seniority is concerned, in

13 the Crisis Staff, had we carried any real influence, then I probably

14 wouldn't have gone to Milan to appeal for funds to be used for food for

15 those who were returning to the Odzak area, in order to be better able to

16 organise their life. That's what the contacts were about.

17 MR. WEINER: Your Honour, it's time for the break now.

18 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. We'll take our break and continue our

19 proceedings at 1100 hours.

20 --- Recess taken at 10.30 a.m.

21 --- On resuming at 11.02 a.m.

22 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Weiner. Since we couldn't start right away

23 because of the technical problems, you have another 20 minutes to complete

24 your cross-examination.

25 MR. WEINER: That's all I plan to use, is another 20 minutes, Your

Page 16415

1 Honour. Thank you. I feel I should also be given some time to make up

2 for the objections.



5 Q. Now, sir, you indicated that you knew Milan Simic and that you had

6 worked with him on some Odzak matters. Did Milan Simic help you or assist

7 you at all?

8 A. Yes. He helped on our insistence, in terms of oil supply -- fuel

9 supply and foodstuffs.

10 Q. And whenever you called on Milan, was he pretty much always able

11 to help you, or did he help you whenever he could?

12 A. Well, there were situations, objectively speaking, when he was

13 able to, and sometimes when he didn't have it at his disposal, or the

14 municipality didn't have it at its disposal. He did something when he was

15 able to, whether he did it to the degree that was required, that's another

16 matter.

17 Q. Did you get along with Milan Simic, get along well with him?

18 A. I didn't have any particular problems in relation to him

19 personally. He did his work. I was elsewhere. So when we had dealings,

20 that was an opportunity for us to be in contact, to meet.

21 Q. And did you trust him? Was he fair with you when you asked for

22 things?

23 A. Well, it was his duty, as president of the Executive Board, to,

24 whatever he was able to do, in terms of Samac municipality, helping for

25 the people or to the people who were in the Odzak municipality, then he

Page 16416

1 was fulfilling his duty, his obligations. There were situations when

2 intervention should have been made, in the sense that pressure should have

3 been exerted when there were shortages, and we needed things, so then

4 sometimes there would just -- he would just have to insist on some

5 requests.

6 Q. Okay. Now, you're aware that Milan Simic has pled guilty in this

7 case and as part of his plea he's admitted to certain criminal activity.

8 You're aware of that, aren't you?

9 A. I didn't read, and I wasn't -- I'm not aware of everything. I

10 know that he was sentenced. I wasn't in touch with him so that I would

11 know all the details. I just know that he was convicted and that he had

12 partly accepted some responsibility.

13 Q. Sir, according to the sentencing judgement, at page 5, Milan Simic

14 does not dispute and agrees that the government would have proven or that

15 the Prosecution would have proven, paragraphs 36 and 37 of the

16 indictment. And I have the B/C/S copy from the current indictment, which

17 are the same paragraphs, registry's version, paragraphs 28 and 29 in

18 B/C/S. And if you can look at those, I'd like to read those to you. In

19 the fourth indictment that Milan Simic pled guilty to, he admitted to,

20 paragraphs 36 and 37, which are 28 and 29 in the B/C/S version. You

21 should have them on the ELMO, on the screen in front of you, sir. Can you

22 see them? And I'd like to read those to you. Paragraph 36, which is your

23 28, paragraph in front of you: "On or about 13 July 1992, the 1st Krajina

24 Corps of the Bosnian Serb army seized control of the neighbouring

25 municipality of Odzak by force. As the Serb military forces advanced on

Page 16417

1 Odzak, the majority of the non-Serb residents fled the area. Those

2 non-Serbs who had not fled before the takeover fled, were killed, or were

3 forced to leave."

4 And I'll continue, paragraph 37, the next paragraph:

5 "Prior to July 1992, approximately 22.500 Bosnian Croat Muslim

6 residents, out of a population of 30.000, lived in Odzak municipality. In

7 November of 1995 -- I'm sorry, in November 1995, at the time of the

8 signing of the Dayton peace agreement, virtually all of the 22.500 Bosnian

9 Croat and Bosnian Muslim residents had fled or were forced to leave the

10 municipality -- I'm sorry, the Odzak municipality."

11 Did I read that correctly, sir?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Is that what happened? People either fled or they were forced to

14 leave or killed?

15 A. Well, I know that people were forced. That's what we were told by

16 the HVO, they were forced to leave, and that's what they did. But here,

17 there's also talk of people being killed. If there were, I wouldn't have

18 been able to know who, when this territory was being -- people being

19 forced out of the territory, if Milan knew, then --

20 MR. LAZAREVIC: [Previous interpretation continues] ... is not

21 accurate. Here it says, on page 35, "that's what we were told by the

22 HVO," which would suggest that this witness was told by the HVO what

23 happened, and this is not what he was testifying.

24 JUDGE MUMBA: I think even the gaps, I think the interpreters

25 didn't get everything. Can the witness simply repeat the answer.

Page 16418


2 Q. Sir, could you please repeat your answer, sir.

3 A. I also spoke previously that we had information at the Crisis

4 Staff that the HVO had ordered people to leave the territory before the

5 1st Krajina Corps arrived, and practically all of the population were

6 taken to the Croatian territory. I don't know anything about people

7 killed, that there were people killed. That could have been -- could be

8 known by those who participated in taking over of this territory, and I

9 was not one of the participants.

10 Q. Sir, were you aware of Serb forces forcing people to leave --

11 forcing non-Serbian residents to leave Odzak?

12 A. I don't know about that, because we did not take part. Our units

13 or Crisis Staff, they did not take part in taking over that territory, so

14 I don't know whether there was or there wasn't. I can't possibly give an

15 affirmative answer.

16 Q. Sir, Biljana Plavsic has indicated that the Bosnian military

17 police and civilian forces, under the control of the SDS and the Serbian

18 leadership, collaborated with the JNA, the Ministry of Internal Affairs of

19 Serbia, and paramilitary units from within and outside of

20 Bosnia-Herzegovina, to implement the objective of ethnic separation by

21 force. That's what one of the Serbian leaders has stated as part of her

22 plea of guilt. Isn't that consistent with Milan Simic's testimony that

23 people were forced -- were killed or forced to leave Odzak? Isn't that

24 consistent, sir?

25 MR. PANTELIC: Objection, Your Honour. I don't believe that we

Page 16419

1 heard the testimony of Mr. Milan Simic. If my learned friend makes

2 certain references, it should be --

3 MR. WEINER: It's plea agreement. It's plea agreement. You're

4 wasting time, Mr. Pantelic. You're wasting my time.

5 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, because it's a public record.


7 Q. Sir, isn't the statement of Milan Simic in his plea agreement of

8 people being forced to leave Odzak or being killed, these are non-Serbs,

9 isn't that consistent with Biljana Plavsic's statement, factual statement

10 for her plea that the JNA, the MUP, and many of these organisations

11 collaborated to force non-Serbs to leave their municipalities? Isn't that

12 consistent?

13 A. Well, you're asking me to comment on what Biljana said in court.

14 What Milan Simic said in court, and whether this is consistent or not. If

15 you please, I cannot enter into details of what their testimony is and

16 their behaviour, whether it's consistent or not. Probably they know why

17 they said it, how they said it, and what kind of statements they gave. I

18 don't see why I should offer any comment on that to say whether Milan is

19 right or not and whether Biljana Plavsic said what she said.

20 Q. [Microphone not activated] Sir, the question is: Milan Simic's

21 statement that people were forced to leave and Biljana Plavsic's statement

22 that all these groups; the JNA, the MUP, the military --

23 JUDGE LINDHOLM: Microphone, please.

24 MR. WEINER: Sorry.

25 Q. Milan Simic's statement that people were forced to leave and

Page 16420

1 Biljana Plavsic's statement that it was a policy to force people to leave,

2 aren't those consistent?

3 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I have to object. The

4 Prosecutor has now stated twice what Milan Simic said as his testimony. I

5 have to put it on the record that the plea agreement is still under seal.

6 Only parts that are in the verdict, in the judgement, can be quoted. The

7 Prosecutor should quote anything to do with the judgement, but the entire

8 plea agreement and the testimony of Milan Simic is under seal. I would

9 like the Prosecutor to be very accurate.

10 MR. WEINER: Your Honour, page 5 of the judgement indicates which

11 facts and allegations Milan Simic agrees to, and it says: "Paragraphs 28

12 to 30, 32 to 34 and 36 to 37 of the indictment," and that's exactly what I

13 just read to him.


15 MR. WEINER: Just as it states in the --

16 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Perhaps Mr. Lukic should be more careful in

17 looking at the documents the Prosecution is referring to.


19 Q. So once again. One last time, sir. Milan Simic's statement that

20 the non-Serbs of Odzak were killed or forced to leave, isn't that

21 consistent with Biljana Plavsic's statement that it was a policy to force

22 the non-Serbs of certain municipalities to leave? Aren't those two

23 consistent?

24 A. Here, when you're speaking about the statements or the

25 testimonies, I don't know what Milan Simic had as data, that in the

Page 16421

1 municipality of Odzak non-Serbs were killed. Where did he get the

2 information? What was the number of non-Serbs killed? At this very

3 moment, I cannot even know whether there were murders.

4 Q. Sir, my question --

5 A. Let alone whether that was --

6 Q. That's not my question. The my question is: Are those two

7 statements consistent? Just whether or not they're consistent. I'm not

8 asking you to examine the factual basis of each. Are those two statements

9 consistent?

10 A. I'm not a lawyer by profession to offer comment.

11 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Popovic, that is not a question for a lawyer.

12 That is just a matter of language. The Prosecution is asking you whether

13 the two statements are consistent, that's all. You can easily answer

14 that.

15 A. Well, I said, they have similarities in the statements, the two of

16 them.


18 Q. All right, sir. Let's go to the last issue. We've had a number

19 of witnesses testify in this case concerning looting in Odzak. You've

20 even admitted as to looting or robberies in Odzak; isn't that correct?

21 A. I said that there was taking away of property from companies, as

22 well as from private homes.

23 Q. Now, sir, while you were in Odzak, Simo Zaric was also in Odzak,

24 in an intelligence position; isn't that correct?

25 A. Yes, he was.

Page 16422

1 Q. And in that position, in intelligence, it was his job to find out

2 what was happening within the Odzak community; isn't that correct?

3 A. Well, he had to if he was doing certain work, as much as he had

4 access to, he had to cooperate with me in terms of security and the army.

5 But in those relationships --

6 [Technical difficulty]


8 Q. Sir, we lost your statement after you said, "in those

9 relationships," after you indicated he had to cooperate with you and the

10 army in terms of security. Could you repeat the rest of your answer, sir.

11 A. In these relationships, I don't know how much they agreed, and in

12 terms of all this, he didn't have to inform me, because I was not -- that

13 was not my position of authority for that area.

14 Q. All right. Sir, my question to you is: It was his job to find

15 out what was happening in Odzak; isn't that correct, as an intelligence --

16 as the intelligence specialist for the council? That was his job, to find

17 out what was happening?

18 A. He was supposed to find out, but what he -- whether he was in a

19 position to do that, considering that this territory was, as I said,

20 almost hermetically closed, that each brigade had its area of

21 responsibility, they had their own security organs. How much Simo managed

22 to get to certain information, to certain intelligence, and to get into

23 these areas, he's the one who should know best.

24 Q. But sir, since he was in the area of intelligence and it was his

25 job to gather information, he was in a better position than you to know

Page 16423

1 what was happening in relation to these military and civilian crimes;

2 isn't that correct? He's out there trying to obtain information, so he's

3 in a better position than you; isn't that correct?

4 A. Well, certainly he was better informed.

5 Q. Thank you.

6 MR. WEINER: Now, could the witness see 142 ter, pages 137 and

7 138. The bottom of page 137.

8 Q. Sir, are you aware that Mr. Zaric has given a statement in June of

9 1998 and actually his second statement in April of 1998, and in both

10 statements he indicated that the Crisis Staff was responsible for the

11 organised looting of the town of Odzak? Are you aware of that?

12 MR. WEINER: The bottom of the page.

13 Q. Are you aware of that, sir?

14 A. I don't know about that, that the Crisis Staff was responsible. I

15 don't know for which part was he responsible for, if it was military

16 administration, headed by -- that is, that this was for the part of the

17 Odzak municipality. They had complete authority, they had under its

18 control. So I don't see how Crisis Staff could have been responsible and

19 could have been conducting the lootings.

20 Q. All right, sir. Let's read -- if you follow in B/C/S on the

21 bottom of 137 into page 138. In the English I'll read, which is on page

22 138. Zaric's statement, which is P142 ter. "I know that we found Odzak

23 when we arrived as a military council, the many goods when the Croatian

24 forces were retreating was taken from Odzak from the factories and so on.

25 And that a large amount of goods still remained in the factory. We had a

Page 16424

1 commission, as a military council, which went from company to company, and

2 wrote down the machines, what was there in terms of finished products, in

3 what state it was, how much wheat or corn there was in the silos, how many

4 domestic animals there were in the ranches and the farms, and this

5 military council who wrote all this down, and through commander Popovic,

6 transferred it to the Crisis Staff in Samac, and every day it was

7 organised through the Executive Council and their institutions. They took

8 these machines and these goods. They say that they sold them and gave up

9 some of these goods so that the army of the Republika Srpska could be

10 fed. But I believe that a large amount went into their pockets -- went in

11 their pockets, of which I have no physical evidence, but it went that way

12 because it was looted, and that's the way things were done during this

13 war."

14 So you -- question: "So you had no knowledge of this looting

15 while it was going on and were not involved?" Answer: "When I talk about

16 this looting, I said it was done in an organised manner, and I

17 participated in no looting whatsoever, not even a plastic cup like this.

18 Much less ordered anybody else to do so."

19 Sir, do you agree with Mr. Zaric that the Crisis Staff was

20 involved in the looting in Odzak? Do you agree with that, sir? You were

21 a member of the Crisis Staff. Were you and the other members of the

22 Crisis Staff involved in the looting of Odzak?

23 A. I did not take part, and I could not have taken part in looting

24 with the Crisis Staff. When talking about organised looting, no machine

25 or anything else could have been taken out without the approval of the

Page 16425

1 commander of the military administration. So if anybody wanted from Samac

2 or Modrica -- I don't know whether you hear me.

3 Q. Yes, I heard you. And Zaric also states, on the 2nd of April,

4 1998: Question: "So this is the Samac Crisis Staff who was allowing this

5 looting to go on?" Answer: "Yes. Many things were taken away. It was

6 all organised by them."

7 Sir, that's P141 ter, page 94. Were you and the Crisis Staff

8 involved in that looting, sir?

9 A. No.

10 Q. Sir, isn't it true that you can't answer that question in the

11 affirmative, you can't answer that question in the affirmative, or you

12 would be incriminating yourself in a war crime, isn't that true, sir?

13 A. I can say the following: That if anybody, according to the

14 instructions that were at the time, if that person came to Odzak, and if

15 that person wanted to take some goods, and if he went to the military

16 administration, he would have to supply a request, submit a request, and

17 say that he needed something for a specific purpose. And then if that was

18 approved, he would then have to obtain a certain certificate, a document.

19 That would be recorded. And then that person would take that machine or

20 something else, that person would then take that machine or something else

21 to Modrica or to Samac. Now, if he did something else further with that

22 machine or that other thing, I don't know. I was not in a position

23 whether that was taken somewhere else, I was not in a position to know.

24 Q. My question to you, sir, was: Isn't it true that you cannot

25 answer the question about the involvement of the Crisis Staff in looting

Page 16426

1 in the affirmative or you would be incriminating yourself? Isn't that

2 true?

3 A. I don't know how I could incriminate myself if, as a man who was

4 there in Odzak, I directly requested or submitted requests for certain

5 things that I needed. But did I participate in such a way that I would

6 prepare certain documents that were submitted to the command of the

7 military administration to be approved? But this was just the military

8 field of authority, whether they would give it to you or not.

9 Q. Sir, you've indicated that Simo Zaric, because of his position in

10 intelligence, was in a better position than you to know what was going on,

11 and you agree with me that he has indicated or he has indicated in his

12 statement to the Office of the Prosecutor that the Crisis Staff was

13 involved in the organised looting of Odzak? Do you agree with me in that

14 statement that I've just read to you, that Simo Zaric, who was in a better

15 position, who you've admitted was in a better position than you to know

16 what was going on has indicated that the Crisis Staff was involved in the

17 looting? Isn't that correct? That's what Zaric has stated.

18 A. If Simo Zaric was in a position to know and to monitor certain

19 developments, then he should specify what the names were of people from

20 the Crisis Staff who took part in organised looting. And just on whose

21 orders something was taken from Odzak then he should know where this thing

22 ended up, if someone had taken anything away from Odzak, on an individual

23 basis or collectively.

24 Q. My question to you is: You've admitted that Simo Zaric was in a

25 better position than you to know what was going on with regard to crimes

Page 16427

1 and looting, and he has indicated that the Crisis Staff was involved with

2 the looting of Odzak. Isn't that true? Isn't that correct, that he has

3 said that?

4 A. That's his opinion. I don't have a single piece of evidence that

5 would confirm that any members of the Crisis Staff appropriated or

6 misappropriated anything, or that they had taken anything away from Odzak

7 pursuant to any orders.

8 Q. But as you previously said, sir, you weren't in a position to

9 know.

10 MR. WEINER: No further questions.

11 JUDGE MUMBA: Re-examination.

12 Re-examined by Mr. Pantelic:

13 Q. [Interpretation] Good day, Mr. Popovic. Just a couple of

14 questions, a couple of points remaining to be clarified.

15 First of all, in connection with the last issues broached by the

16 Prosecutor, do you remember, during the military administration, so we're

17 talking about the end of July 1992, which body was there in Samac: The

18 Crisis Staff or the War Presidency, formally?

19 A. The War Presidency.

20 Q. The Prosecutor quoted sections of Simo Zaric's statement.

21 According to your personal information and knowledge, in cases of looting

22 or wherever looting has been ascertained, who was in charge of starting

23 the procedure?

24 A. Military security and civilian security were in charge of that,

25 whenever they had knowledge of any such thing, they would automatically

Page 16428

1 have to take action to stop or prevent looting. If there was organised

2 looting and if they had information that there was organised looting.

3 Q. Mr. Popovic, do you remember an order by General Talic on

4 introducing the military administration from July 1992?

5 A. I remember the oral part, but I've never seen it in writing.

6 Q. I'm asking about your personal knowledge about that. The military

7 administration, were they in charge of property in the area of the

8 military administration and the republic stock and supplies? Do you know

9 that?

10 A. There were rules and instructions then, and it was up to the

11 military administration and the army to organise for facilities to be

12 guarded, for goods to be transported, and certain instructions were issued

13 pursuant to which a person could move about within the area of

14 responsibility of the Tactical Group. Therefore, it is clear from this

15 that someone failed to do their job, or something along those lines.

16 Q. Just another question issuing from the line of questioning by the

17 Prosecutor. Do you remember to what extent Simo Zaric really spent time?

18 How much time he really spent in Odzak? Because the military

19 administration continued until 1993. Can you remember how much time Simo

20 Zaric actually spent at the council of the military administration?

21 A. I think he was only there very briefly. I couldn't specify

22 whether it was for a month or longer, but I think certainly very briefly.

23 Q. Very well. Mr. Popovic, the Prosecutor asked you about the

24 figures concerning the Serbian and non-Serbian population. Now, after

25 Dayton, how many Serbs are there in the area of Odzak municipality?

Page 16429

1 A. Dozens, perhaps, a hundred possibly. I'm not sure, but not too

2 many.

3 MR. PANTELIC: Could we have now Exhibit P169, please.

4 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Popovic, this morning you were asked by the

5 Prosecution about several issues concerning the dispatch by the Tactical

6 Group 1, dated 12 May 1993, signed by Colonel Ratomir Simic, about a

7 meeting that was held at the military administration. I will read this to

8 you. I don't know whether you can see on the screen the first page of

9 this document, and then if you can tell me, please, whether you remember

10 that. So on page 1 of the dispatch, item 1 of the agenda was preserving

11 property in the area of TG 1 from being taken away and taken out of the

12 area. Under 2: What to do with the property that is currently under

13 protection but should be given to the goods, supplies, and stocks. Number

14 3: Monitor the situation and solve all major problems, if any, the case

15 of the silos. List and record the property and the like. Item 4: The

16 situation of the military administration and the decision regarding the

17 cessation of military administration.

18 Mr. Popovic, I know it's been more than ten years, or actually,

19 almost ten years since the meeting we are now talking about. These four

20 items of the agenda, do they reflect the issues that were actually debated

21 at the meeting?

22 A. Well, first of all, I couldn't remember this meeting, that this

23 meeting ever took place, but by looking at this dispatch, I see that there

24 was indeed such a meeting. And I think this was more or less what was

25 present on the ground.

Page 16430

1 MR. PANTELIC: Mr. Usher, could you turn to page 2 of the B/C/S

2 version, please.

3 Q. [Interpretation] On page 2 of Colonel Ratomir Simic's report, to

4 his Superior Command, the 1st Krajina Corps, the report claims that Mr.

5 Blagoje Simic, the president of the Samac SO, so this is the Municipal

6 Assembly of Samac, isn't it?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. He proposed for the military administration to be abolished as

9 soon as possible. He provided the example of a farm where cows were kept

10 for milking. He said that the military administration had taken away

11 several lorries of leather and no one knew where they had taken the

12 leather to. Do you remember Mr. Simic discussing that at the meeting?

13 A. I'm trying to think back, and I know that when Colonel Simic came

14 and when Todorovic was in charge of civilian affairs, the council became

15 less important, that that man took over everything. So no wonder that

16 there were cases of misappropriation of property. You've just referred to

17 the case of cows and leather being taken away. That's exactly what

18 started happening when the colonel came and his deputy, Todorovic. And

19 then a month later, I think, another colonel was brought in, who was not a

20 member of the command but rather -- who was not at the command, at the

21 command building, but rather in a different building, where the council

22 was. He only stayed for a very brief while, and then that whatever its

23 name is, military administration was reintroduced and then Colonel

24 Milivoje Simic came. This was all strange, the way things developed.

25 Q. When you refer to Todorovic, who was in charge of civilian

Page 16431

1 affairs, do you know his first name?

2 A. Captain Todorovic.

3 Q. So this is not Stevan Todorovic, chief of police in Samac that

4 we're talking about?

5 A. No. This is a man who came with him.

6 Q. With whom?

7 A. With Mr. Ratomir Simic, the commander, he brought him and he

8 appointed him commander for civilian affairs.

9 Q. On page 2, which you may be looking at - this is an exhibit

10 tendered by the Prosecution today - Colonel Simic proceeds saying that the

11 president of the municipality would like to say the following. This is

12 towards the bottom of the page. I'll read this out to you. He said that

13 every army keeps doing in its own sector whatever it likes, that the army

14 is a state institution, and that he, Dr. Simic, as the president of the

15 Municipal Assembly, cannot accept contact with local commanders. He goes

16 on to say: There is a government, there is a main staff. So that's where

17 these things should be dealt with.

18 Do you remember that particular section referred to by Dr. Simic

19 at the meeting?

20 A. I don't know in which context this discussion was held. If he

21 told me probably that there was a bit of misunderstanding between the

22 commands of the tactical groups in relation to the civilian population,

23 because we had the return of the refugees, not the refugees, but rather

24 the arrival of the refugees in the area of Odzak municipality, and the

25 return of our people, who were coming, who were voicing their discontent.

Page 16432

1 And then when this man came, the man I've just told you about, and the

2 change probably, that's when this conversation ensued, the conversation

3 between the two of them.

4 Q. Mr. Popovic, last question related to this document: There is a

5 reference to two other names here. Do you remember at that meeting, was

6 General Bogdan Subotic also present, who was also the minister of defence

7 in the government of Republika Srpska at the time?

8 A. Frankly, I can't remember that it was a general. Somehow this

9 doesn't ring a bell. I don't think I've ever seen that man. I have heard

10 of Subotic. Now, whether he was present or not, I really can't answer

11 that. I don't know. I'm not sure.

12 Q. On page 1 of this document - I'm not sure if you can see it - we

13 discussed this this morning. There are the names of the participants.

14 Number 7, minister of justice of the government of Republika Srpska, Mr.

15 Jovo Rosic. Do you remember him being there at the meeting?

16 A. Whether he was at that meeting or not, but I know that Mr. Rosic

17 came to the area of Odzak municipality. When exactly, I can't say right

18 now, because I really don't know. I know that he was present and that he

19 held certain talks, but whether on that day or on a different day,

20 probably, perhaps, this Mr. Ratomir provided information which said that

21 we were all there on the same day.

22 Q. On page 3 of this dispatch, Colonel Simic, the commander of the

23 Tactical Group 1, says that on the 11th of May, which means the day before

24 this dispatch was written, Minister Borivoje Sendic also arrived in Odzak,

25 who I suppose was the minister for forestry. Do you remember perhaps

Page 16433

1 whether this minister was also present at the meeting?

2 A. All these leaders who came mostly spoke to the command of the

3 Tactical Group, so if he was there, he was probably in touch with him. I

4 know that these people came and went, and now as far as the precise date,

5 I find that very difficult to say whether it was a day sooner or a day

6 later. I really can't be very specific about that.

7 Q. Finally, please, tell us the following: Concerning the level of

8 these participants and their positions, you personally, or Dr. Simic, as

9 the president of the War Presidency in Samac, were you in a position in

10 any way to influence the relationship between the military administration

11 and the government of Republika Srpska or the Main Staff of the army of

12 Republika Srpska?

13 MR. WEINER: I object, before he answers that, I'd object. It's

14 outside the scope of cross-examination. I never questioned him concerning

15 the influence of the Crisis Staff over the republic of Srpska or the

16 relationship of the military and the government. That's totally outside.

17 He brought that up in direct examination and I never got into any of that

18 in cross.

19 MR. PANTELIC: It came, Your Honour, from the exhibit P169, which

20 was tendered into the evidence just this morning. And since the persons

21 that I just mentioned were present, according to this information --


23 MR. PANTELIC: -- on page 1, normally I'm asking his personal

24 knowledge about the influence of the local organs with the government.

25 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. When you come to asking whether people were

Page 16434

1 present and whether or not this institution had any influence, that's a

2 totally different question, and as the Prosecution says, it wasn't raised

3 in cross-examination.

4 MR. PANTELIC: Maybe I can be more specific for this particular

5 meeting. So in that term, maybe I can rephrase the question.

6 JUDGE MUMBA: No, not even for this particular meeting.

7 MR. PANTELIC: Okay. I'll move on, Your Honour.

8 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Popovic, tell me: I'm really sorry to have

9 to ask you the following line of questions to you. This is something

10 which the Prosecutor forced me to do by asking you a series of questions

11 in relation to your personal credibility. These questions refer to the

12 SDS, the SDS policies, Biljana Plavsic, and so on and so forth. So I must

13 ask you the following now, since this has been broached by the

14 Prosecution: Tell me, the platform and the policies of the SDS, how would

15 you characterise them or describe them? Briefly.

16 A. The original platform or programme of the SDS, as concerns that,

17 I said at the beginning that I had been a member of the League of

18 Communists. I am a leftist by conviction, a democrat. Some parts of that

19 platform, and with other friends of mine and colleagues, we found certain

20 possibilities. This platform that was offered in the space and at the

21 time was acceptable in some way because you could see that the general

22 population, not because Karadzic or Mladic or anyone else was concerned,

23 came, approached, since there were national tensions caused by Croats and

24 Muslims. It was only normal to expect that such activity and such a

25 platform people would take sides, on the basis of the platform or, rather,

Page 16435

1 accept or acknowledge certain elements espoused by the platform, the

2 policies. And therefore, I was in a position, as a man who was in some

3 way involved in politics, to accept part of the platform that could have

4 been some sort of a platform for activity of us leftists in the overall

5 state of affairs.

6 Q. Mr. Popovic, please tell me: Was the SDS ever banned from their

7 activity by any part of the international community?

8 A. As far as I know, it was never banned, but I know that memberships

9 were frozen at a certain point in time and all activity was frozen as

10 concerns that political party during a certain period of time.

11 Q. In order to avoid any misunderstanding, this freezing of activity,

12 who was it ordered by and in which period specifically, if you can

13 remember?

14 A. I think that was towards the end of 1992, but I'm not sure. I

15 know that for a period of time, all activity was stopped on the part of

16 the SDS. I'm not sure. I know that this was referred to. But as I was

17 not a member, I know that it was in that period; whether 1992 or 1993, it

18 was said that no party activity should be pursued during that period of

19 time.

20 Q. You mean it was a decision taken by the SDS themselves, as an

21 organisation?

22 A. Yes, precisely.

23 Q. Can you tell me, please: The current president of the Presidency

24 of Bosnia-Herzegovina, which party is he a member of, Mr. Sarovic? Which

25 party does he belong to?

Page 16436

1 A. The SDS.

2 MR. WEINER: I object. That's outside the scope of our

3 indictment.

4 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Pantelic. We are not dealing with current

5 affairs, are we?

6 MR. PANTELIC: Your Honour, not directly, but since the position

7 of the Prosecution is that the membership in SDS party is something which

8 is wrong, which is to some extent might be a criminal act, that's why --

9 JUDGE MUMBA: There's no such --

10 MR. PANTELIC: That's my impression, Your Honour. That's my

11 impression of the line of the questioning.

12 JUDGE MUMBA: That is wrong. There's no such allegation by the

13 Prosecution.

14 MR. PANTELIC: I mean not allegations directly, but my conclusion

15 is -- was that maybe I'm wrong. Okay.

16 Q. [Interpretation] In connection with the SDS, tell me, please:

17 You, as the -- that was the question asked by the Prosecution. They asked

18 you about instructions coming from high on, from higher levels of the SDS

19 and then percolating downwards. The Prosecutor mentioned Biljana

20 Plavsic's admission and her conviction. My question is: Did you

21 personally, at any point in Samac -- can you hear me? Can you hear me,

22 Mr. Popovic?

23 A. No. I didn't hear the question. The line was down.

24 Q. Fine. I'll repeat the question. You personally, Mr. Popovic, did

25 you have any information or knowledge that in 1992 and 1993, the higher

Page 16437

1 organs of the SDS issued instructions to people at the local level or to

2 the Crisis Staff, more specifically, as to how the Crisis Staff for the

3 War Presidency should operate? Do you have any personal information in

4 relation to that?

5 A. I have not seen any such instructions, nor has anyone informed me

6 of anything like that. Now, whether the Executive Board or the

7 government, as they refer to it in the municipalities, had any such

8 instructions, and probably they did, and probably they worked pursuant to

9 those instructions, but the Crisis Staff or, after a month or two or

10 three, it was transformed into a War Presidency which numbered, say, three

11 members. I'm not sure even about three members. I have never seen any

12 such instructions, nor has anyone ever informed me of the existence of any

13 such instructions. If there was, then it was towards the Executive Board

14 or the executive organ.

15 Q. Do you have a degree in economics? You talked about the Executive

16 Board. Were these instructions issued by the relevant ministries or were

17 these party instructions?

18 A. These could have been certain ministries of the governments. And

19 as far as the parties, if memberships were frozen, then I can't see why

20 the party would have issued any such instructions if it had already frozen

21 all of its activities.

22 Q. You were asked the same question by the Prosecutor concerning the

23 relationship between Blagoje Simic and the higher-level bodies. In 1992

24 and 1993, was Blagoje Simic a member of the leadership of the SDS at the

25 republic level? Do you have any information concerning that?

Page 16438

1 A. No, I don't have any information that he was a member of the

2 leadership or of the higher-level bodies of the SDS.

3 Q. Mr. Popovic, the Prosecutor asked you about the establishment and

4 the work of the Serbian municipality of Samac and of Pelagicevo. They

5 showed you extracts from the Official Gazette. Do you have any personal

6 information on the existence of instructions by the Assembly of Republika

7 Srpska for these organs at the local level not to be activated unless the

8 vital interests of the Serbian people were jeopardised? Do you know

9 anything about any such instruction?

10 A. Excuse me. I don't think I fully understood your question.

11 Instructions related to what exactly?

12 Q. Do you have any personal information concerning the instructions

13 or decision by the Assembly of Republika Srpska that the local assemblies

14 would not be activated unless vital interests of the Serbian people were

15 jeopardised? Just tell me if you know or not.

16 A. No, I don't know about that.

17 Q. Can you tell me, if you know, whether in April 1992, did the

18 municipality of Samac, Domaljevac, start working in the former

19 municipality of Samac?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Under whose control?

22 A. Under the control of the HDZ, under Croatian control.

23 Q. You were also asked by the Prosecutor, in terms of certain

24 decisions by the Executive Board and some that were adopted at the

25 Municipal Assembly of the Serbian people in Obudovac, there were certain

Page 16439

1 subjects to do with the position of Stevan Todorovic, police forces,

2 et cetera. I'm now asking you the following: Who was in command and who

3 was the superior organ to the public security station in Samac? That's

4 one question, please.

5 MR. WEINER: I'd object to that, Your Honour. There's been no

6 cross-examination on that.

7 MR. PANTELIC: Yes, Your Honour. It was when my learned friend

8 mentioned the conclusions of the Executive Board and the tasks of the

9 special police unit, headed by Mr. Stevan Todorovic. So in that sense, I

10 have to clarify --

11 MR. WEINER: Your Honour, I asked him about that, but I never went

12 into who was in authority of the MUP or the SUP. If I was given another

13 hour and a half or two, I would have gotten into a lot of issues, but that

14 I never went into.

15 JUDGE MUMBA: [Microphone not activated]

16 MR. PANTELIC: Can I proceed, Your Honour?

17 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. I can see that there is no record. I did say

18 that I will allow you to go ahead because the question is connected to

19 what the Prosecution had raised.

20 MR. PANTELIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

21 Q. [Interpretation] So, Mr. Popovic, according to your knowledge, who

22 was the superior organ, and who was in command of the police forces of the

23 public security station in Samac? Do you know?

24 A. Stevan Todorovic was under the command of the Security Services

25 Centre in Bijeljina. As far as I know, that later became Brcko, of the

Page 16440

1 Crisis Staff or the War Presidency. So in terms of vertical hierarchy, it

2 was the Security Services Centre and the ministry. So he never asked us

3 anything, he never reported to us, so we couldn't have asked him anything

4 and we couldn't have influenced anything.

5 Q. Because of some technical difficulties during your answer, line 23

6 of page 57, 58, until line 3, there were certain things that were not

7 logical. Mr. Popovic, can you answer very briefly: Who was superior

8 authority of the Samac public security station and who was in the top of

9 that hierarchy in 1992 and 1993, of the police hierarchy?

10 A. Public security of the station of the area, Bijeljina, and then

11 further up would be the ministry, Ministry of the Interior of the

12 republic. That would be then the minister.

13 Q. So this previous part of the answer, just for the record, I would

14 like to have it stated that because of some technical difficulties, part

15 of the answer from page 57, line 24, 25, and page 58, line 1, 2, 3, should

16 not be taken into consideration, because there were certain technical

17 difficulties. Thank you.

18 Mr. Popovic, you were asked by the Prosecutor about the

19 relationship between Blagoje Simic, Milan Simic, and Simeon Simic, and

20 whether they were related. According to your knowledge, were they close

21 relatives or were they not close relatives?

22 A. As far as I know this place where they were born, they have the

23 same last name, but they're not connected in terms of family. I think

24 they're very distant relatives, so to speak. You know what close

25 families, if these are children from two brothers or two sisters, but they

Page 16441

1 are not related in this way.

2 Q. Mr. Popovic, you were asked several questions by the Prosecutor

3 about the establishment of the Serbian municipality of Samac and

4 Pelagicevo, and he also mentioned the term "shadow government." Now, I

5 have to ask you several questions about that. Can you tell me whether in

6 that time - and we're speaking about April 1992 - was there a republic of

7 the Serbian people established in Bosnia-Herzegovina?

8 A. As far as I know, that was in 1992. I think it was established

9 then. That would have been --

10 Q. Do you have any knowledge whether at that time, the beginning of

11 1992, was there a constitution of the Serbian Republic of

12 Bosnia-Herzegovina?

13 A. I cannot give you an accurate answer. I know it was mentioned,

14 the constitution was mentioned, but whether it existed or not, I'm really

15 not well informed in relation to the constitution. I can't tell you.

16 Q. Do you know whether at the time there was the government of the

17 Serbian people in Bosnia-Herzegovina that was established, led by

18 Professor Djeric? Do you recall that. Is there anything you can say

19 about that?

20 A. Well, yes, I know that that was the government, or at least that

21 was presented to the public, that there was this government, and the Prime

22 Minister was such-and-such, and there were certain ministries that

23 existed. How much they were able to operate from the then position I

24 occupied, I couldn't tell. I think in terms of administration and paper

25 and red tape, everything was done.

Page 16442

1 Q. Now, if today Republika Srpska functions as one of the entities,

2 then can you tell me, your position, whether at that time, could you have

3 understood it as being a shadow government, or was it a regular

4 government? What was your position on that?

5 A. Considering everybody worked publicly, they held meetings at the

6 level of Bosnia-Herzegovina and also on local levels, when we're talking

7 about the establishment of Serb municipalities, Croatian municipalities,

8 municipalities and so on, I don't think that was any kind of shadow

9 government at all, because it was publicly stated and declared.

10 MR. PANTELIC: What's the basis for objection, please.

11 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Weiner.

12 MR. WEINER: I'll withdraw. It's just this is not relevant.

13 MR. PANTELIC: Your Honour, I'm really surprised. He explicitly

14 take -- yes.

15 MR. WEINER: No. What I was talking in terms of a shadow

16 government, that they had parallel governments, he's trying to talk in

17 terms of shadow government in terms of legitimacy of governments and

18 because there's a valid government today pursuant to the Dayton Agreement,

19 that therefore the fact that there was a shadow government back then it

20 was some sort of legitimate government. We're not -- we did not discuss

21 in cross-examination the legitimacy or the validity of the government.

22 There was a shadow government or a parallel government established. I'm

23 not arguing that. But he's trying to back door it into an issue based on

24 the fact that there's a legitimate government today, therefore, do you

25 believe that it was a legitimate government back then? And that's what

Page 16443

1 they're trying to get this person to comment on.

2 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. It doesn't help the case of the Defence at

3 all.

4 MR. PANTELIC: Your Honour, yes. Your Honour, that's a legal

5 issue at the end of the day. I know that. But --

6 JUDGE MUMBA: Then why are you raising it.

7 MR. PANTELIC: He -- because it was raised during the

8 cross-examination, Your Honour. My learned friend asked him whether the

9 Municipal Assembly was some sort of shadow government. So I have to

10 clarify with this witness what is his knowledge of the term of "shadow

11 government." So it was raised during the cross-examination, simple as

12 that.

13 JUDGE MUMBA: Go ahead, Mr. Pantelic.

14 MR. PANTELIC: [Interpretation]

15 Q. Mr. Popovic, can you tell me: When you were talking about Colonel

16 Djurdjevic, can you tell me whether later on, because you're somewhat

17 related to him in some way, he is about ten years your senior, isn't he?

18 A. I can't believe he is older. I said he was about my age. So he

19 was about 50 at the time, like me.

20 Q. Mr. Popovic, can you tell me, because you're closely related to

21 him, do you know whether he was ill at the time?

22 A. At that time?

23 Q. Well, from that time onwards, in the next ten years, was he sick?

24 A. He got ill some time ago and he died about a year ago.

25 Q. What did he die of?

Page 16444

1 A. He died of cancer. He had a tumor. So that spread very quickly,

2 and the man died very quickly. But he didn't -- there were no symptoms

3 when he was ill.

4 JUDGE MUMBA: [Previous interpretation continues] ... details.

5 MR. PANTELIC: Because --

6 JUDGE MUMBA: It had nothing to do with the Defence case. That's

7 what I said sometime back that you don't imitate the mistakes of the

8 Prosecution.

9 MR. PANTELIC: Okay. I agree with that. Thank you.

10 JUDGE MUMBA: And you're winding up?

11 MR. PANTELIC: Yes, Your Honour. Just a short glance on the

12 issues, and I think I've finished with this witness.

13 Q. [Interpretation] Yes. The Prosecutor showed you this morning

14 Official Gazette about the decision on the appointment of Mitar Mitrovic

15 as the secretary of the municipality. Do you remember that? It was

16 signed by the acting president, Mr. Tanasic. Do you recall that?

17 A. Yes. I saw that.

18 Q. That was a decision that was published there. Do you personally

19 know whether he, Mitrovic, was issued a ruling by the relevant organ?

20 Just tell me if you know anything about it.

21 A. I have no knowledge of that.

22 Q. Thank you, Mr. Popovic.

23 MR. PANTELIC: [Interpretation] I have finished with my re-direct

24 [In English] [Previous interpretation continues] ... questions for this

25 witness. Thank you.

Page 16445

1 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you, Mr. Popovic. You are finished your

2 evidence. You may go.

3 [The witness withdrew]

4 JUDGE MUMBA: This is the end of the videolink witnesses, so we go

5 back to our normal proceedings in The Hague.

6 MR. PANTELIC: Your Honour, may I ask, respectfully, this Trial

7 Chamber to allow me, let's say, around 15 minutes to prepare. Because

8 next witness, I'm just in the middle of cross-examination of next witness,

9 who should come, Mr. Simeunovic.


11 MR. PANTELIC: Just to arrange some papers here. Fifteen minutes

12 would be fine.

13 [Trial Chamber confers]

14 JUDGE MUMBA: We shall take our break early, then. This is 12 --

15 almost 12.15. So we shall continue our proceedings at 12.45. No, no,

16 no. This is 20 minutes. 12.35.

17 MR. PANTELIC: Thank you, Your Honours.

18 --- Recess taken at 12.14 p.m.

19 --- On resuming at 12.35 p.m.

20 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Can the witness be brought, please.

21 [The witness entered court]

22 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Simeunovic. We are continuing with you.

23 Mr. Pantelic continues asking you questions.


25 [Witness answered through interpreter]

Page 16446

1 Cross-examined by Mr. Pantelic: [Continued]

2 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Mr. Simeunovic. May we proceed,

3 please. The Prosecutor asked you, on the 3rd of March, Monday, -- my

4 mistake, sorry. My colleague Lukic asked you the question in relation to

5 the appointment of Captain Jez as the chief of security at brigade level,

6 and so on. You answered that you carried out certain arrests, and when

7 you said "you," you mean the army of Republika Srpska. One of these cases

8 was the arrest of Captain Jez at Donji Zabar. Do you remember being asked

9 that by Mr. Lukic and then you started your answer?

10 A. I referred to the arrest --

11 Q. No, no, no, Mr. Simeunovic. I'm sorry to interrupt you. Let me

12 just ask you the following: Do you remember what you said in connection

13 with that? And then I will ask you another question. If you don't

14 remember, because some time has passed, after all, I can read this out to

15 you to remind you.

16 A. I do remember stating that Captain Jez was arrested at Donji

17 Zabar.

18 Q. And then, in continuation of your answer, you said that he was

19 arrested because of certain cooperation with them, meaning, I presume -- I

20 presume that you meant Todorovic and the volunteers, and so on. Is that

21 correct?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. So at that time when you, or rather, the competent organs of

24 Republika Srpska, according to your personal knowledge, since Captain Jez,

25 because of the cooperation with Todorovic and the volunteers, because he

Page 16447

1 was arrested at that time, as part of the proceedings of Republika Srpska

2 were there any proceedings that were then initiated against Todorovic and

3 his volunteers because of their behaviour and beating of prisoners in

4 Samac? Just tell me if you have any knowledge of this?

5 A. No, no. There were no proceedings that were initiated, because at

6 that time they were not members of the Yugoslav People's Army or of the

7 army of Republika Srpska.

8 Q. Very well. At that time there were no proceedings initiated

9 because of a number of murders that have been committed by Todorovic and

10 by volunteers from Serbia?

11 A. The proceedings that was initiated, I know they arrested Crni and

12 a number of volunteers after the corridor had been cut off, and they were

13 taken to the military prison in Banja Luka. Todorovic was not arrested

14 because of that.

15 Q. Very well. Further on, my learned colleague Mr. Weiner asked you

16 on that day, in connection to Simo Zaric's statement, that is, 542

17 exhibit, P142, that is, statement of Simo Zaric, and in that statement,

18 Mr. Zaric talks about the alleged involvement of Blagoje Simic in the act

19 of bringing the volunteers to Samac. Do you recall when the Prosecutor

20 quoted this to you?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Can you tell me: At that time, your answer was that you had no

23 reason to doubt the statement by Simo Zaric, because he was an

24 intelligence officer, and today, is that the same, that you have no doubt

25 to doubt his statement?

Page 16448

1 A. I said that I have no reasons to doubt his statement, but as I

2 said then, I know who welcomed that group of volunteers, who came to

3 Batkusa. Blagoje was not one of them -- was not there.

4 Q. Mr. Simeunovic, can you tell me: Considering that the Prosecutor

5 quoted you Zaric's statement, where he said that he had certain -- there

6 were certain indications according to Zaric that Dr. Simic was involved in

7 the act of bringing these volunteers, and you agreed with that. Did you

8 ever receive from Simo Zaric, as from your subordinate intelligence

9 officer, a report about a possible role of Blagoje Simic in the act of

10 bringing the volunteers? Did you get a report or a dispatch from him? Do

11 you know what I mean? Have you received anything like that from him?

12 A. I know that after Simo Zaric arrived, when he went to Belgrade to

13 forward what had happened in Crkvina and to ask for some kind of

14 protection, I know what he said at the time when he returned, when he was

15 reporting to the Lieutenant Colonel Nikolic. He said that he found out

16 there that from the Samac government, there was a possibility that was

17 asked from Samac, from RV PVO to transfer those volunteers to the Samac

18 municipality, that he had seen such a request that was submitted by the

19 government of Samac.

20 Q. Very well. When I now read to you statement of Simo Zaric, you

21 can then give your assessment, of course. That's page 56 of his statement

22 dated 1st of April, 1992 -- 1998.

23 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction. 1998.

24 MR. PANTELIC: [Interpretation]

25 Q. And he says -- he was asked by Mrs. Nancy Paterson: "Did you ask

Page 16449

1 Mr. Zaric about the role and where these volunteers have come from?" And

2 Simo Zaric then says to the investigators of the Tribunal the following:

3 "Yes, but this true information I found out only in the course of

4 the war. They were in a completely different area of responsibility. It

5 was there in the village of Batkusa where there was a completely different

6 detachment. I was linked to the town of Samac. I later found out that

7 they came, organised by the command of RV PVO of the army of Yugoslavia.

8 It was their organisation, in their security service of that command. It

9 was the command of RV PVO of Yugoslavia, which was the joint link with

10 some representatives of the Serbian MUP. Yes, there was that connection.

11 I think that that's how it happened, through that connection, that there

12 was RV PVO security and the security of the Serbian MUP. I know that from

13 finding out about it later. That's how it arrived, through that line.

14 And Stevan Todorovic was the link that brought these people to the

15 territory of Samac."

16 You have no reason to doubt Mr. Zaric's words?

17 A. No.

18 Q. Further on, you were asked by the Prosecutor about the meeting in

19 Donji Zabar which was organised by Nikolic. Can you tell me,

20 Mr. Simeunovic -- let me remind you: This is about certain gathering

21 between the civilian authorities and the commander Nikolic, and according

22 to you, he then later informed, and so on. You were asked by the

23 Prosecutor. Now I'm asking you: Do you have any knowledge whether

24 Commander Nikolic invited to that meeting representatives of the other two

25 ethnic groups, Muslims and Croats, specifically? Did he also invite them,

Page 16450

1 considering that you mentioned civilian authority? Do you have such

2 knowledge?

3 A. No, I don't have any such knowledge. He didn't mention that he

4 invited others to this meeting.

5 Q. Do you know who was at the time the president of the municipality

6 of Municipal Assembly of Samac municipality?

7 A. At that time, I knew --

8 Q. Let me remind you: Mato Lujic.

9 A. Yes, I know he was a Croat.

10 Q. You also testified that Commander Nikolic, together with the chief

11 of police, Dragan Lukac, had joined patrols, checkpoints. Do you remember

12 at those checkpoints that were set up? Do you remember that?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Let me ask you: Did Nikolic invite Dragan Lukac to this meeting

15 with the civilian authorities?

16 A. He didn't invite him, and I don't see the reason why he should

17 have invited him.

18 Q. Very well. At that time you said -- or you answered to the

19 Prosecutor that it was said that the volunteers will be under the command

20 of the civilian authorities, not under the command of the army, because

21 they were not members of the JNA, they were not part of the JNA.

22 A. Yes. They showed official IDs that showed that they were members

23 of the police of Serbian Krajina. As such, they could not have been under

24 the command of the army, of the JNA.

25 Q. In his interview, Simo Zaric, in his interview dated 1st of April,

Page 16451

1 1998, on page 55, in relation to Commander Nikolic, he says: "Since the

2 commander said that he would put them under his control, and he was also

3 my commander, it wasn't up to me to do anything more than that." You have

4 no reason to doubt these words. This is correct, what he said in his

5 interview, Simo Zaric?

6 A. Perhaps it's true what Simo said, but the commander could not have

7 placed them under his command, because they were not members of the

8 Yugoslav People's Army. Perhaps in some conversation or other he may have

9 said: I'll try and place them under my command. But later on, after

10 their arrival, and after reporting the Superior Command, there was this

11 meeting in Donji Zabar that happened, the one that we already spoke about,

12 and he said -- and that's when he was told who were these people, under

13 whose authority they were, and he said that he had no authority, nor could

14 he place them under his command.

15 MR. LAZAREVIC: I apologise to my learned colleague. Just to

16 avoid any misunderstanding. When quoting the interview of Mr. Zaric, it

17 was quite obvious that Mr. Zaric used the word "under control." To put

18 these men under control. This doesn't mean -- it doesn't have same

19 meaning as under command. So basically, I just want to avoid any

20 misunderstanding of what the witness answered. I could wait for

21 re-direct, but it's quite obvious what ...

22 MR. PANTELIC: [Interpretation]

23 Q. I will continue to quote from page 54 of the same interview by

24 Simo Zaric: "Nikolic told us that the command then, that it was some kind

25 of a gang, meaning the volunteers, and that we will see what will happen

Page 16452

1 to them, as it says here, and that he will deal with them, and so on.

2 After a few days, he then gave information that he would place them under

3 his control and that we shouldn't worry about this at all." You have no

4 reason to doubt Simo Zaric's words? Let's just answer yes or no.

5 A. I have no reason to doubt this.

6 Q. Very well. Very well. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. You

7 can explain that to the -- to my colleague.

8 Now, can you tell me: You were asked by the Prosecutor about Mico

9 Ivanovic, Mijak. You had information that Mico Ivanovic, Mijak, was

10 appointed as the commander of the Territorial Defence. Can you just

11 confirm this: That man, Mico Ivanovic, Mijak, at that time, he had a dual

12 function. He was the commander of the 1st Detachment of the 17th Tactical

13 Group, at the same time he was the commander of the TO; is that correct?

14 A. Yes. He was the commander of the 1st Detachment, and we received

15 a piece of information saying that he had been proposed to become the

16 commander of the TO, that if this becomes established, that he would be

17 the commander of the TO.

18 Q. Very well. Can you tell me: When did you find that out, you

19 personally?

20 A. That was immediately before this group arrived, so this was in

21 early April 1992.

22 Q. Thank you. Can you tell me, Mr. Simeunovic: At the time, did you

23 have any personal knowledge about the establishment of MUP of Republika

24 Srpska? I'm talking about April of 1992.

25 A. I didn't understand. Which MUP do you mean?

Page 16453

1 Q. I'm talking about the Serbian MUP, the MUP of Republika Srpska,

2 Ministry of the Interior of Republika Srpska, in March/April 1992. Mico

3 Stanisic, Momcilo Mandic, going all the way up. You know what I mean.

4 You know what I'm talking about. Have you had any intelligence about

5 that, that the Serbian MUP had been established?

6 A. No. No, I did not.

7 Q. Can you tell me something else: You were also asked by the

8 Prosecutor about whether you knew that Stevan Todorovic was establishing a

9 police unit, et cetera, and you later said that this group of 23 young men

10 had returned from training and that it was then that you found out that

11 Todorovic was establishing this. And then you were further asked by the

12 Prosecutor whether you knew about the fact that Todorovic had been

13 ordered, either by the Municipal Assembly or the Crisis Staff, even before

14 the war, to establish these units. And then you said that probably

15 somebody was issuing orders to him and that this was the Crisis Staff that

16 was doing this. Now, I'm asking you, and that the Crisis Staff didn't

17 have any cooperation with the JNA. Now, my question is: In case that the

18 Ministry of the Interior of Republika Srpska had been established at the

19 time, who would have been superior? Who would have been the superior

20 organ to the public security station and Stevo Todorovic?

21 MR. WEINER: I object.

22 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Weiner.

23 MR. WEINER: The witness has just testified that he wasn't aware

24 that the -- of the establishment of the Ministry of Interior of the

25 Republika Srpska. And now he's asking about an agency that he wasn't

Page 16454

1 aware was established, who would be superior, or if it would be superior -

2 I'm sorry - to the SUP in Samac. You can ask him -- it's almost a legal

3 question. If it has been established. Or it's a governmental question.

4 Would it -- would they have been superior. But based on his previous

5 testimony, I think it's not admissible at this point.

6 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. It's beyond what factual knowledge the witness

7 would be able to give evidence on.


9 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Simeunovic, you are a man who dealt with

10 problems of military security. You probably know something about civilian

11 security as well. Can you tell me: In April, May, June of 1992, who was,

12 organisationally speaking, above public security station in Samac? Do you

13 have any later knowledge or do you have any contemporaneous knowledge

14 about that? It's a very simple question.

15 A. Above the station in Samac, there should have been a unit. Now,

16 whether this is on the principle of a region, whether this was a MUP which

17 coordinated these stations in the region.

18 Q. And above that regional level, who was that?

19 A. Then it would be the republic.

20 Q. When you say "republic," you mean Republika Srpska?

21 THE INTERPRETER: Inaudible.

22 Q. Thank you.

23 JUDGE MUMBA: The interpreters didn't get the answer. Can the

24 witness repeat the last answer, please.

25 MR. PANTELIC: [Interpretation]

Page 16455

1 Q. Yes, yes. When I said republic, you meant Republika Srpska. Can

2 you just say it audibly so that it's on the record, please.

3 A. If we're talking about that period now, that the station of police

4 was established and it was a Serbian station in Serbian Samac, then, as

5 far as the region that encompasses is concerned, under the control of

6 Serbia [as interpreted] then it would -- that would be under the Republika

7 Srpska.

8 MR. LAZAREVIC: Just one small correction. On page 73, line 6,

9 under the control, it didn't say Serbia of Serbs, because Serbia is

10 another state, and simply it would just imply something different.

11 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. It will be corrected.

12 MR. PANTELIC: [Interpretation] Very well. Thank you. Thanks to

13 my colleague Lazarevic.

14 Q. Mr. Simeunovic, we're talking about those young men from the

15 surrounding villages of Samac municipality who were sent for training.

16 Did you know that they were leaving, that they were being sent to

17 training?

18 A. No. We didn't know. We only learned, when they arrived by

19 helicopters. It was only then that we learned that about 23 of them had

20 left and that Aco Jankovic from Batkusa was their commander. He was the

21 leader of the group.

22 Q. You said a minute ago, that's in your previous testimony, that you

23 would receive daily reports, daily information, from your subordinates,

24 from your colleagues from the detachment concerning the security

25 situation. You do remember that, don't you?

Page 16456

1 A. Yes, I do remember. Except for the 1st Detachment, we never

2 received even a regular report, let alone interim reports, from the 1st

3 Detachment. No such reports from the 1st Detachment ever reached the 17th

4 Tactical Group.

5 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Weiner.

6 MR. WEINER: Your Honour, sorry to interrupt. As a matter of

7 clarity, it says, they asked about the -- this group that was sent for

8 training and it says: "We didn't know. We only learned when they arrived

9 by helicopters. It was only then that we learned." Is he referring to

10 the JNA command, the JNA, he and members of his unit? I think it's

11 important that we know who he's referring to.

12 JUDGE MUMBA: I'm sure the witness can answer that.

13 MR. PANTELIC: [Interpretation]

14 Q. Mr. Simeunovic, please, when you say "we," or "you," who are you

15 referring to?

16 A. What I meant is that I found out then, and immediately after I had

17 learned that, I told Lieutenant Colonel Nikolic about it. As a command,

18 we found out on that day that they had left and been sent for training.

19 We didn't know at that point, but later we found out that the training had

20 taken place in Sarengrad.

21 Q. Which means soldiers are being sent for training, and you, as the

22 superior security body, didn't know about that; is that what you're trying

23 to say?

24 A. Precisely. And I did say that. The detachment, upon its

25 establishment, had no barracks. I told you this about the 4th Detachment,

Page 16457

1 but the same applied to all the other detachments. Those people were

2 assigned to the detachment. They received weapons, but they were at their

3 homes. They went about their business or they travelled. They would be

4 away for five, ten days, a month, and they had no obligation to report to

5 the commander of the detachment. They were free -- well, in a manner of

6 speaking. They were citizens doing their duty. Only he was in the

7 records of the detachment, his name was. And that's why we didn't know

8 that those people had actually left.

9 Q. I understand, people received mobilisation call-ups, they would

10 place themselves under the command of the 17th Tactical Group. Were they

11 free to move about or did they have to ask permission by the organs of the

12 17th Tactical Group? How did that really work in practice?

13 A. Until [as interpreted] the outbreak of hostilities, the 17th, the

14 18th, and onwards, they did have to ask for permission, but prior to that

15 point, they were free to travel wherever they wanted to. They weren't

16 supposed to report to anyone. They weren't even supposed to report to

17 their own detachment commander if they wanted to leave for five or ten

18 days, to do something for themselves. They were people with seasonal jobs

19 in different places.

20 MR. LAZAREVIC: There is just one word here that makes a complete

21 sense [sic] of this part of the testimony. On page 75, line 12. It's not

22 "until," but after the outbreak of hostilities. And now it makes sense

23 what the witness said.

24 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, that will be corrected.

25 Mr. Pantelic, you have had enough time for this witness.

Page 16458

1 MR. PANTELIC: Your Honour, I will cover just a couple of more

2 issues, variant A and B, particularly, then some reports to the Superior

3 Command, and that's all.

4 JUDGE MUMBA: No. Those are not matters peculiar to the defence

5 of your client.

6 MR. PANTELIC: Because --

7 JUDGE MUMBA: They are general.

8 MR. PANTELIC: No, no. They are very specific, because this

9 witness mentioned some organs, like Crisis Staff or, namely, my client,

10 with certain activities regarding volunteers. So I'm just specific to the

11 role of my client and the institution where he was head of. For

12 example --

13 JUDGE MUMBA: So you wind up -- so I'll give you 15 minutes, then.

14 MR. PANTELIC: Thank you.

15 Q. [Interpretation] Did you send to your Superior Command, to the

16 corps, the 17th, commanded by General Savo Jankovic, did you send a

17 report regarding volunteers who had arrived back from their training? Did

18 you report to your Superior Command?

19 A. Yes. As I said, I was present when they arrived in the village of

20 Batkusa. After that, I went straight to the command and reported to

21 Lieutenant Colonel Nikolic. He called, as I said, the Superior Command

22 immediately and asked them whether they knew who the people were who had

23 arrived by helicopters. And he received no reply from them. He didn't

24 know who the people were. He said a meeting would take place, and then a

25 meeting took place in order to find out who the people were who had

Page 16459

1 arrived.

2 Q. In connection with this issue, because you were asked by the

3 Prosecutor and you referred to the TO, tell me: Who commands a unit of

4 the TO? The civilian government, that is, the municipality, or the

5 superior military command? Briefly, please.

6 A. Previously, the TO was commanded by the Yugoslav People's Army,

7 the Yugoslav People's Army commanded previously. But if we're talking

8 about Mijak, who was appointed commander of the TO, the JNA did not

9 appoint him.

10 Q. That's beyond dispute. That's regulated by the statute of the

11 municipality. That means until the 19th of May - that's when Colonel

12 Lieutenant Nikolic withdrew - the JNA commanded the TO, to all intents and

13 purposes?

14 A. Effectively, there was no TO. That was under the command of the

15 JNA. The people who were there who were assigned to the TO reported to

16 detachments that had been established by the JNA.

17 Q. Furthermore, concerning Blagoje Simic, you were shown by the

18 Prosecutor the Official Gazette, P124, Exhibit number P124. The question

19 was whether you knew about -- actually, this was never shown to you. You

20 were just simply asked whether you knew that the municipal board of the

21 SDS had initiated the appointment of Blagoje Simic as president of the

22 assembly and later as president of the Crisis Staff. This is clear

23 enough, the way it's stated in the Official Gazette. Do you know that at

24 that time, the president of the Serbian municipality, at first, was Ilija

25 Ristic and was then replaced by Dusan Stanisic? Did you know that?

Page 16460

1 A. I don't remember at all having been asked about the Official

2 Gazette of the Municipal Assembly. I don't remember at all this being

3 referred to.

4 Q. Very well. Now, I'm asking you: Do you remember that the

5 president of the Serbian municipality was Ilija Ristic at that time and

6 was then to be replaced by Dusan Stanisic, please answer if you know? If

7 not, not.

8 A. It's true that I was an intelligence officer, but I was not in a

9 position to know everything.

10 Q. But did you know about this specifically?

11 A. I know that Dusan Tanasic was the president of the SDS in

12 Pelagicevo.

13 Q. Do you know that he was appointed president of the Serbian

14 municipality of Samac and Pelagicevo?

15 A. I didn't know that.

16 Q. Furthermore, you were asked by the Prosecution, and you answered

17 that you were pro Yugoslav, that you were a Yugoslav by conviction, and

18 that this was the idea you advocated. At that time, were you in favour of

19 protecting the Serbian people in Bosnia-Herzegovina by remaining within

20 Yugoslavia? Was that your line of thinking in 1992?

21 A. Had Bosnia-Herzegovina remained part of Yugoslavia and the Serbian

22 people in it, there would have been nothing to protect it from. We would

23 have remained within Yugoslavia, as had been the case up to that point.

24 What we advocated was for Bosnia-Herzegovina to remain within Yugoslavia,

25 as had been the case up to that time. That's the idea we advocated.

Page 16461

1 Q. Do you remember the plebiscite of the Serbian people at the end of

2 1991? The question was: Do you wish to stay within Yugoslavia or do you

3 want an independent Bosnia and Herzegovina? Do you remember or not?

4 A. Yes, I do.

5 Q. You did take part in the plebiscite, didn't you?

6 A. Yes, I did.

7 Q. At that time, the end of 1991 until April 1992, were you in favour

8 of an independent Bosnia-Herzegovina or did you wish Bosnia-Herzegovina to

9 remain within Yugoslavia? Because it's not quite clear --

10 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Weiner.

11 MR. WEINER: This is outside the scope of my cross-examination.

12 How is this relevant, his personal views on Bosnia-Herzegovina? It's one

13 thing if it's the JNA views or the command of the JNA, but it's --

14 MR. PANTELIC: It's relevant, Your Honour, first of all on page 36

15 on the transcript of the Monday, 3rd of March, he was asked by the

16 Prosecution: What is your convictions there, whether you were in favour

17 of the separate, allegedly separate actions of the SDS and stuff like

18 that. First of all, the line of questioning is related to some extent to

19 the credibility of this witness, and then to clarify his position, because

20 it is not clear from his answer on Monday, 3rd of March, whether he's

21 speaking prior to April 16 or after. Simple as that. I just want to

22 clarify that. And I'm leaving this topic, because I got the answers from

23 this witness.

24 JUDGE MUMBA: You go ahead.

25 MR. PANTELIC: Simple as that.

Page 16462

1 Could we have Exhibit P100, P100.

2 Q. [Interpretation] Furthermore, you were asked by the Prosecutor, in

3 detail, about Biljana Plavsic's admission. Tell me, please, first of all,

4 Mr. Simeunovic: We're talking about the Samac level, the Samac

5 municipality.

6 MR. PANTELIC: Mr. Usher, can I take a look, please?

7 Your Honour, I do apologise. There are some problems in my list

8 of -- it's P3, actually, Mr. Usher. I do apologise. Because it's a

9 variant A and B, and there are many numbers of the documents, so it was

10 not so clear here.

11 Q. [Interpretation] At any rate, Mr. Simeunovic, before the document

12 reaches you, please tell me: What's your personal knowledge - I'm talking

13 about the period in late 1991 and the outbreak of hostilities in April

14 1992 - your personal information regarding the relationship between the

15 SDS and the JNA in the Samac municipal area? How would you describe

16 that? Was there any cooperation? Were there any plans? Please tell me

17 briefly so we can start with the document.

18 A. There was cooperation at some level. It was not totally rejected.

19 Everything would be debated. Talks would be held for conflict to be dealt

20 with in a peaceful manner, to keep hostilities from breaking out. That

21 sort of cooperation took place, not only on the part of the SDS, but the

22 other parties too. They tried everything possible to avoid conflict.

23 Q. Very well. In Samac, in late 1991 and until April 1992, did the

24 JNA make any secret plans with the SDS concerning the takeover of power in

25 setting up organs of Serb government?

Page 16463

1 A. I didn't know of anything like that.

2 Q. Can you now have a look at the document in front of you. It has

3 several pages. Can you please leaf through them. Just briefly: This

4 document allegedly speaks about -- but we don't know if it's a document or

5 a paper, actually, speaks about the cooperation between the SDS and the

6 JNA. There are two possible scenarios, where the Serbian deputies in the

7 local assembly are in the majority, and the other scenario is where the

8 Serbian deputies are in the minority. And it talks about cooperation with

9 the JNA. First of all, my question is --

10 MR. WEINER: I'd object. Your Honour, this is a complicated

11 document. It's several pages long. It's eight pages long. If you're

12 going to question this witness concerning that document, he should be

13 entitled to read the document or at least go through it, not look at it

14 for 30 seconds and then start questioning him on it. That's not fair to

15 the witness, it's not fair to the case.

16 MR. PANTELIC: I will establish just right now personal knowledge

17 of this witness with regard to that document.

18 Q. [Interpretation] Tell me, Mr. Simeunovic: You've looked at the

19 title, you've looked through the document. Can you please have a look at

20 the last page. This document, in this form, did you see it while you held

21 the position of the head of security in the 17th Tactical Group and other

22 units later on? Have you ever seen this document up to now?

23 A. No, I have never laid eyes on this document, and I would really

24 have to go through it thoroughly in order to be able to discuss it. This

25 last page is illegible. It's a very poor copy.

Page 16464

1 Q. We're not going to go into that now, Mr. Simeunovic, and we can't,

2 for the simple reason that you've never seen it before.

3 A. Yes. But in this document, all I can see is the title, "The

4 Serbian Democratic Party of the Serbian municipality, Main Board."

5 Q. In the area of Samac municipality, as you held those positions,

6 did you ever see a document like this in this form and with this title?

7 A. No, never.

8 Q. You were asked by my learned friend, friend and colleague, Mr.

9 Weiner, in connection with the special battalion, as part of the 17th

10 Tactical Group, special battalion. Can you remember: When was it set up?

11 Late April 1992 perhaps. Can you remember that?

12 A. The special battalion was set up not late April. It wasn't even

13 there in May. It wasn't around. It was later.

14 Q. Just tell us, if you remember.

15 A. Perhaps early May, after the JNA left.

16 Q. You were asked by the Prosecutor about Mrs. Biljana Plavsic's view

17 on the shadow government, about her statement, her view, and Simo Zaric's

18 view. What I want to know, more specifically, is the following: The SDS,

19 to the best of your knowledge --

20 MR. WEINER: Your Honour, I never asked him -- I never asked the

21 witness about his -- Biljana Plavsic's view. I asked him about the

22 instructions that Biljana Plavsic and the SDS and Serb leaders issued to

23 the municipalities, not their view; the instructions from the top that

24 they issued down.

25 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Pantelic. The Prosecution is correct.

Page 16465

1 MR. PANTELIC: [Interpretation] That's precisely what I'm about to

2 ask you.

3 Q. Do you have any personal information whether the SDS sent any

4 military instructions from the top down to their own organs at the

5 municipal level? Did they deal with military issues, according to your

6 information?

7 A. Can you please repeat the question?

8 Q. The SDS organs at the republic level, did they forward military

9 instructions to their own bodies at the municipal level? I'm not talking

10 about Samac, only specifically. Do you know anything about things like

11 those happening?

12 A. I can't say, because I did not attend any of those top-level

13 meetings. I can't tell you whether they sent anything to the municipal

14 boards. I don't know.

15 Q. I'm merely trying to find out the following, the extent of your

16 personal knowledge concerning the local level. Did you hear that the SDS

17 ever received any military instructions or instructions of a military

18 nature? That's all I want to know.

19 A. I don't know.

20 Q. Finally, I have one or two questions left. Which day is the day

21 of the feast day of the Samac municipality, traditionally?

22 A. I think it's the 16th of April now.

23 Q. Furthermore, you were asked by the Prosecution, quoting Biljana

24 Plavsic, talking about different acts that are viewed as persecution, or

25 classified as persecution. There's a concept there, but I must ask you

Page 16466

1 first of all if you understood what you were asked, to begin with. The

2 Prosecutor said that Biljana Plavsic had pleaded guilty to crimes of

3 persecution, saying that Biljana Plavsic and members of the Bosnian Serb

4 forces, Bosnian Serb politicians and government organs, and their agents,

5 this word, "agent," that's the word that the Prosecutor suggested to you.

6 I'm not sure if you know what's meant by this concept. Do you know that

7 the army of Republika Srpska --

8 A. No, I don't really remember the word being used.

9 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Weiner.

10 MR. PANTELIC: Mr. Weiner, yes.

11 MR. WEINER: I was just going to say: Once again, these aren't my

12 words. He -- counsel constantly takes all of these questions out of

13 context. If he's going to ask him about a question that he was

14 previously -- which is previously stated by the Prosecutor, he should read

15 that particular question, as opposed to just making some summary and

16 taking it all out of context. That was a comment from Biljana Plavsic as

17 part of her plea, that she, the leadership of the Serb government, the

18 SDS, the remaining leadership, the subgovernment units and their agents

19 committed persecution, or actually, orchestrated a campaign of persecution

20 against the non-Serb public of Bosnia-Herzegovina. That's not my comment;

21 that's Biljana Plavsic, one of the Serb leaders, comments or admissions.

22 JUDGE MUMBA: The time is up, Mr. Pantelic.

23 MR. PANTELIC: Can I just clarify that submission of my learned

24 friend with the witness, please?


Page 16467

1 MR. PANTELIC: I will read this portion. It's page 49 of LiveNote

2 version of the transcript of March 3rd. The Prosecution just makes some

3 references to the Biljana Plavsic and my learned friend stated: "Are you

4 aware --" that was a question to this witness: "Are you aware that

5 Biljana Plavsic has pled guilty to the crime of persecutions, indicating

6 that she and members of the Bosnian Serb forces, Bosnian Serb political

7 and government organs, and their agents, committed five of those acts that

8 I just read to you? Were you aware that --" et cetera, et cetera. The

9 answer of this witness was: "I'm aware that Biljana Plavsic confessed her

10 guilt. Perhaps the reporting was not very detailed in our part of the

11 world, but they did say that Biljana Plavsic had confessed to her guilt

12 and that is why this judgement was passed upon her."

13 Q. So now -- [Interpretation] Now, my question to you is this: Do

14 you know that the theory of the Prosecution at this Tribunal is that the

15 army of the Republika Srpska was actually just an agent of the JNA? Do

16 you know about this theory?

17 MR. WEINER: I'd object to that, Your Honour. That's been a

18 finding in the Krstic case, it's been a finding in the Tadic case. It has

19 been the theory of the Prosecution, but it has also been finding by the

20 Courts of this Tribunal.


22 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. And the question is taking us nowhere,

23 Mr. Pantelic.

24 MR. PANTELIC: I just want to clarify with this witness the

25 relation on Samac municipality, within organs of JNA and local

Page 16468

1 politicians.

2 JUDGE MUMBA: Then ask a direct question.

3 MR. PANTELIC: But first I would like to introduce a witness with

4 the term of "agent," because he was probably misled by certain references

5 that my learned friend made.

6 Q. [Interpretation] So, Mr. Simeunovic, my question is: According to

7 your information, to your personal and professional information, as a man

8 who headed a security body, in Samac municipality, was there any plan or

9 any cooperation between members of the JNA, on the one hand, and members

10 of the local organs of the SDS, on the other, concerning the takeover by

11 force or any crimes that were committed?

12 A. There were meetings, but I don't know that there was ever any

13 discussion of the JNA taking part in the takeover of power. Meetings were

14 held with the SDS, with the SDA, and with the HDZ, with the aim of

15 preventing bloodshed. The aim was to protect the civilian population, to

16 protect the area. Meetings were held for that purpose only.

17 Q. As opposed to making plans for the takeover of power?

18 A. No. I was not aware of any such plan.

19 Q. My last question?

20 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Pantelic -- no, no, no. Sit down.

21 MR. PANTELIC: Yes, Your Honour.

22 JUDGE MUMBA: You've taken your time.

23 MR. PANTELIC: Okay. Thank you. Time is time.

24 JUDGE MUMBA: Re-examination.

25 MR. LAZAREVIC: Yes. It won't take long. I can promise that.

Page 16469

1 Re-examined by Mr. Lazarevic:

2 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Mr. Simeunovic. Considering that

3 I was present during the main part of your examination, I will just have a

4 very short time, stemming from the questions that were asked both by the

5 Prosecutor and by Mr. Pantelic. These are only some slight clarifications

6 in respect of things you have already spoken about here.

7 First of all, when you were asked by Mr. Pantelic about raising of

8 combat readiness of the detachment, he always used the date 16th of April.

9 So now I'd like you to tell us: When you spoke about that, that the

10 commander had decided to raise the combat readiness of the 4th Detachment,

11 was it on the 16th of April or the next day, the 17th of April?

12 A. That was on the 17th of -- of the 4th Detachment, as well as all

13 the other detachments, they were all issued orders to raise combat

14 readiness.

15 Q. Thank you. I think this has now been clarified, when this order

16 was issued. Then Mr. Pantelic quoted certain parts from Mr. Zaric's book,

17 and of course asked you if you agreed with the assessment given by

18 Mr. Zaric, and this was in relation to the transfer of prisoners from the

19 TO building to the military barracks in Brcko. I will now quote several

20 more details from Mr. Zaric's book. So on page 243, first paragraph, item

21 6 says:

22 "Mr. Zaric, in relation to this event, that these people over

23 there will die if something is not done to improve their accommodation

24 conditions."

25 Do you agree with this quote from Mr. Zaric's book?

Page 16470

1 A. Yes, I do agree, because when I came to transfer them, I saw what

2 the conditions they were in.

3 Q. Thank you. On page 245 of the same book, where it says the

4 following, Mr. Zaric says: "I told them that they should go to Brcko

5 because of the further procedure, that there's a proper Detention Unit

6 there with proper conditions and that they will get a doctor."

7 This is the same as you have testified before this Tribunal,

8 indeed in relation from Mr. Zaric's book?

9 A. Yes, that's the same.

10 Q. Just another detail from page 245, where Mr. Zaric says: "I knew

11 whatever they were up against, they would be better off rather than being

12 close at hand to those who were constantly assaulting them."

13 Does this correspond to your personal knowledge as to the reasons

14 why these prisoners were transferred from the Territorial Defence building

15 to Brcko?

16 A. Yes, it does correspond.

17 Q. Thank you very much. There were a number of questions in relation

18 to what was undertaken by the relevant command of the JNA, not that this

19 was something that was directed at you, but there was a question whether

20 you had filed charges after you found out that Lugar had killed 16 people

21 in Crkvina. Let us analyse this. So far it has not been contested that

22 this has happened on the 7th or the 8th of May, on the 7th or the 8th of

23 May in Crkvina, uncontestably the JNA still exists and is in the territory

24 of Samac municipality; is that correct?

25 A. Yes.

Page 16471

1 Q. Can you tell me whether Lugar was a member of the JNA at that

2 time?

3 A. No.

4 Q. Does the JNA have authority only over its own members or over

5 people who are not its members?

6 A. It only has authority over the members of the JNA.

7 Q. Thank you very much. Before this Trial Chamber, Stevan

8 Todorovic -- no. In this Tribunal --

9 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction.


11 Q. Stevan Todorovic was sentenced to ten years' imprisonment and he

12 has confessed to certain murders that he himself committed, whether the

13 JNA or later the army of Republika Srpska had any possibility, any legal

14 possibility of taking any measures in respect of initiating proceedings

15 against Stevan Todorovic?

16 MR. PANTELIC: [Previous interpretation continues] ... the

17 question should be rephrased.

18 MR. LAZAREVIC: But, Your Honours, he was asked already about the

19 crimes that were committed by Lugar.

20 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, he was asked, and whether any institution took

21 any --

22 MR. LAZAREVIC: I see no difference. A crime is a crime.

23 Q. [Interpretation] So, Mr. Simeunovic, in your opinion, did the JNA

24 have any kind of authority to initiate criminal proceedings against Stevan

25 Todorovic?

Page 16472

1 A. No, it didn't have any authority, because he was not a member of

2 the JNA.

3 Q. And I would just ask you about one other case that was on that day

4 when the prisoners were transferred to Brcko. There was the murder of

5 that unfortunate man, Dikan, and it is now quite clear that Lugar has

6 committed this murder. So this happened in April, on the 25th or the 26th

7 of April. I think it was on the 26th of April. And Lugar committed this

8 murder. Did the JNA -- or was the JNA in a position to do anything

9 against Lugar in that situation?

10 A. No, it was not in a position, and according to law, it could not

11 have done anything. He was not a member of the JNA.

12 Q. So Yugoslav People's Army is withdrawing, the Republika Srpska

13 army is becoming established. So let us now clear up the question of that

14 special battalion. Did special battalion exist at all while JNA was

15 there?

16 A. No.

17 Q. So the special battalion was established after the JNA withdrew,

18 and it was a part of the Republika Srpska army; is that correct?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Now, what happens is that another crime is committed. There is

21 the murder of a scout. There was the cutting off of the corridor. And it

22 is not contested that previous volunteers or specials, as we called them,

23 they became members of the part of Republika Srpska army and Crni became a

24 brigade commander in the Republika Srpska army; is that correct?

25 A. Yes. After Crni was appointed this brigade commander, then this

Page 16473

1 whole group, they all became members of the Republika Srpska army.

2 Q. Yes. And the trial in Banja Luka, when Crni, Lugar, and some

3 other members of those forces, when they were tried, were they at the time

4 members of Republika Srpska army?

5 A. Yes, and that's when the army undertook measures. They arrested

6 them and took them in prison in Banja Luka.

7 Q. Thank you. I just wanted to get it all in the chronological

8 perspective.

9 You spoke about this group, group of young men, who were members

10 of the 1st Detachment and who went to that training course, and

11 Mr. Pantelic asked questions in relation to this. I think that so far

12 it's uncontested that this training took place in Sarengrad --

13 MR. PANTELIC: I ask for the clarification. I never mentioned

14 that these participants in this course were from 1st Detachment; rather,

15 from 17th Tactical Group.

16 MR. LAZAREVIC: Yes, but the witness said that they were from the

17 1st Detachment.

18 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Pantelic, do not interrupt the proceedings.

19 Mr. Lazarevic, please go ahead.

20 MR. LAZAREVIC: [Interpretation]

21 Q. So these young men went to this training course in Sarengrad,

22 which is located in the Republic of Croatia, near Ilok. Do you know,

23 perhaps, who was in control of that Sarengrad centre? Was it the army or

24 was it MUP, of the then -- of the then Federal Republic, or was it of the

25 Serbian Krajina Republic? Whose centre was it? Do you have any

Page 16474

1 knowledge?

2 A. That centre was part of the MUP of Serbian Krajina, and that's why

3 they had these IDs. They showed these IDs that they were members of the

4 Serbian police of the Serbian Krajina.

5 Q. Thank you. I just have one other question. Also here in the last

6 few minutes there was a question in relation to your political

7 convictions, and your viewpoint as to the issues of Bosnia. Because there

8 were several questions involved in relation to the sovereign Bosnia,

9 unified Yugoslavia, and Bosnia in its composition, I will just ask you one

10 question in relation to your personal attitude. Have you ever been --

11 you, as a man, have you ever been in favour of any ethnical division of

12 the peoples living in Bosnia-Herzegovina? Has this ever been your option,

13 your political option?

14 A. Before I answer this question -- I will answer this question.

15 When the lawyer asked me the question, he didn't wait for the answer. I

16 couldn't answer the question. He just said: "Thank you." And my

17 conviction, in terms of this issue, I was never in favour of any division

18 on the level of Bosnia-Herzegovina, according to ethnic lines. I wanted

19 from Bosnia-Herzegovina to remain multi-ethnic, as it was, to remain as

20 part of Yugoslavia, so that we can live peacefully, as we have done until

21 then.

22 MR. LAZAREVIC: I have no further questions. Thank you.

23 JUDGE WILLIAMS: I just have one question for you,

24 Mr. Simeunovic.

25 Questioned by the Court:

Page 16475

1 JUDGE WILLIAMS: During the questioning this afternoon by

2 Mr. Pantelic, he asked you, on page 83, lines 20 and 21, which day is the

3 day of the feast day of the Samac municipality traditionally. And your

4 answer was: "I think it's the 16th of April now." I just have a couple

5 of very short questions dealing with that. First of all, do you know what

6 this special day, 16th of April, is called?

7 A. I don't live in Samac, but I know that in Samac, 16th of April is

8 celebrated as the liberation day, day of liberation of Samac.

9 JUDGE MUMBA: What is happening? Can we have silence, please.

10 THE INTERPRETER: There is no microphone for the accused.

11 JUDGE MUMBA: The microphone was not on, Mr. Simic. Can you

12 repeat what you wanted to say? The microphone was not on.

13 THE ACCUSED SIMIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, 16th of April was

14 never celebrated. This witness is obviously lying, lying, lying, like a

15 communist.

16 JUDGE MUMBA: You had your chance, Mr. Blagoje Simic. Your

17 counsel will take that up in his submissions.

18 Yes, the witness can answer the question.

19 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Yes. I think you did answer the question. My

20 last related question: Was it Mr. Pantelic, in his question to you,

21 said: When was this day -- what was this day traditionally? So my

22 question to you is: Was there a special holiday on April the 16th, before

23 April the 16th, 1992, or did it just begin as of 1992?

24 A. All the towns, before the war, as we call it in

25 Bosnia-Herzegovina, they all had their liberation day, and that day was

Page 16476

1 then celebrated. I really don't know which was the liberation day for the

2 Samac. I know in Brcko, 7th of April, and that was celebrated as

3 liberation day on the 7th of day.

4 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Thank you very much.

5 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you, Mr. Simeunovic. We have finished with

6 you. You may leave.

7 We shall adjourn now and continue our proceedings tomorrow.

8 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.47 p.m.,

9 to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 11th day of

10 March 2003, at 9.00 a.m.