Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 17617

1 Friday, 28 March 2003

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 [The witness entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 9.01 a.m.

6 JUDGE MUMBA: Good morning. Please call the case.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning. Case number IT-95-9-T, the

8 Prosecutor versus Blagoje Simic, Miroslav Tadic, and Simo Zaric.

9 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. We are continuing. Mr. Lazarevic.

10 MR. LAZAREVIC: Yes. Thank you, Your Honours.

11 WITNESS: SAVO DJURDJEVIC [Resumed]

12 [Witness answered through interpreter]

13 Examined by Mr. Lazarevic: [Continued]

14 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Djurdjevic.

15 A. Good morning.

16 Q. We started your examination yesterday and we are about to

17 continue. I'll try to get through my questions as quickly as possible,

18 the questions I prepared for you.

19 The last thing we talked about yesterday is where you lived up to

20 1992, and you told us that it was in Rijeka. There are a number of

21 related issues that I would like to clarify now. Tell me, please, you

22 lived in Rijeka. What was your job, your occupation there?

23 Excuse me. Should I repeat the question? What was your job, your

24 occupation in Rijeka, while you lived in Rijeka?

25 A. I'm receiving questions in English. I don't understand.

Page 17618

1 MR. LAZAREVIC: [Previous interpretation continues] ...

2 interpretation.

3 Q. [Interpretation] Can you hear me now?

4 A. Yes. Yes, I can.

5 Q. Can you please tell us, what was your job, your occupation in

6 Rijeka?

7 A. I was working with the police, with the police.

8 Q. You were a professional police officer.

9 A. Yes, that's right.

10 Q. Just another thing: Can you tell me about your education and your

11 qualifications.

12 A. I completed secondary school, training school for police officers,

13 and what was then called the high school for the interior, for internal

14 affairs, which was in Zagreb.

15 Q. Very well. We can then go on to conclude that you were trained

16 for a police officer, to become a police officer, and that you were a

17 police officer while living in Rijeka.

18 A. Yes, that's correct.

19 Q. When did you move to Bosanski Samac?

20 A. Towards the end of 1991, in early December.

21 Q. So when you moved to Bosanski Samac, what did you do there?

22 A. I was unemployed at the beginning, and then I found out that there

23 was an agency in Obudovac and that they needed people to work as military

24 policemen. It was a JNA unit in Obudovac. I went there, I reported to

25 them, and they accepted me. They took me on. And I worked in that unit

Page 17619

1 as a military policeman. And I was receiving salary from them for the

2 work that I was doing.

3 Q. Just one thing, because it's not reflected in the transcript. You

4 said that you had a contract.

5 A. Yes, it was contractual. I was receiving my salary. As long as I

6 was working, I was receiving salary. When I stopped working, I was no

7 longer receiving salary.

8 Q. Thank you very much. I think that clarifies it. Tell me, please,

9 the unit in Obudovac, was this part of the 17th Tactical Group of the JNA

10 or not?

11 A. No. It was an artillery unit. They had their own commander. As

12 far as I know, it was not part of the 17th Tactical Group.

13 Q. Tell me, please, were you perhaps a member of the 4th Detachment

14 in Bosanski Samac?

15 A. No.

16 Q. Sir, I would like to talk about the date 16th and the 17th of

17 April, 1992. Where were you then?

18 A. In Obudovac.

19 Q. Was your family with you?

20 A. Yes. Yes, they were, my wife and my children.

21 Q. How long did you stay in Obudovac?

22 A. I stayed there until the 20th [as interpreted] of April.

23 Q. Excuse me. The transcript says the 20th of April. That's what it

24 says.

25 A. The 28th of April. It was on the 28th of April that I reported to

Page 17620

1 the Secretariat for National Defence in Samac.

2 Q. Very well. Thank you. Tell me, how did this come about? Why did

3 you report to the Secretariat for National Defence in Bosanski Samac on

4 the 28th of April?

5 A. I had been informed by the command that I should report there, so

6 I went and reported.

7 Q. Who was it that met you there, at the Secretariat for National

8 Defence?

9 A. Milos Bogdanovic. He was the one who met me there. And he told

10 me that they knew that I had been a police officer, a trained police

11 officer, and that I should report to the police station.

12 Q. Did you get any written decision on your appointment?

13 A. Yes. That was some kind of work obligation.

14 Q. Very well. Thank you. When you came to the police station on the

15 28th of April, 1992, what were your first impressions of the police

16 station when you first came there?

17 A. There were armed persons wearing police uniforms there. There

18 were some people wearing camouflage uniforms too. There was security

19 outside the station and in the hall. This wasn't the station -- it wasn't

20 like the station that I used to work at before. There were a lot of

21 police officers there, security surrounding the station and in the hall.

22 Q. When you began working there, did you find out who the chief of

23 police was?

24 A. I reported to the police commander. The deputy was there too.

25 And I knew who the chief was. Mr. Milos Bogdanovic had told me. The

Page 17621

1 deputy commander and the commander were waiting for me there, Milan

2 Bijekic and Savo Cancarevic. And they gave me an assignment. They gave

3 me the job that I was supposed to do. I was to work as duty officer at

4 the police station.

5 Q. Just a very short question in relation to that. When you were

6 there at the police station, we used to refer to those people as specials

7 or people wearing camouflage uniforms. Did you see any of those there?

8 A. Yes, yes, they were present too. I saw them too.

9 Q. So you were told that you would work as the duty officer.

10 A. Yes, the duty officer in service.

11 Q. What did that entail exactly? What was your remit as duty police

12 officer? What were you supposed to do?

13 A. I would receive reports from all over the town and all events that

14 were within the jurisdiction of the police. I would receive persons who

15 were brought in. I would record their presence there if they were

16 detained at the station. In the morning, when a police unit went into the

17 field, I would have the papers from the chief's office, that were

18 forwarded from the chief's office -- the orders from the chief's office

19 would be forwarded to the duty officer's room and then the outgoing patrol

20 in the morning would get those orders from me, from my room.

21 Q. I assume, of course, that this job is done around the clock at the

22 police station, 24 hours a day, but certainly you were not yourself

23 sitting there for 24 hours straight. Tell me, how was this organised?

24 Did you have shifts?

25 A. Yes, we took shifts, eight hours each. Between 7.00 in the

Page 17622

1 morning and 3.00 in the afternoon, and between 3.00 in the afternoon and

2 11.00 in the evening, and then again between 11.00 in the evening and 7.00

3 in the morning.

4 Q. You've explained to us now how these shifts worked. Can you

5 remember, please, in addition to yourself, who else was there working as

6 duty officer?

7 A. As far as I can remember, there was Dimitrije Djordjevic and

8 Ilija Vukajovic [phoen]. I remember those two people. They were also

9 working as duty officers.

10 Q. So you took shifts with those two people, eight hours each, as

11 duty officers; is that correct?

12 A. Yes, we took shifts.

13 Q. Tell me, please, during your shifts as duty officer, were any

14 persons brought in?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Can you tell me, who brought those persons into the police

17 station?

18 A. The police officers did.

19 Q. Did it ever happen that specials brought people in, the police

20 officers wearing camouflage uniforms?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. You were a man who forwarded orders. Tell me, please, who issued

23 these orders as to which persons would be brought in and which persons

24 wouldn't?

25 A. The chief, the police chief.

Page 17623

1 Q. Was that Stevan Todorovic?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Whenever a person was brought in, who was it that decided whether

4 the person would be detained at the police station or released?

5 A. The chief, Stevan Todorovic.

6 Q. Who was in charge of guarding those persons who were being held in

7 detention?

8 A. The police officers were.

9 Q. As we've already had occasion to see here what the SUP building in

10 Bosanski Samac looks like, we've seen what the rooms looked like, can you

11 tell us more specifically, this duty officer's room, just a brief

12 description, please. Where is it inside the building?

13 A. It's at the entrance. It's at the entrance to the police

14 station. There was a desk to the right and the staircase --

15 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Lazarevic, we had had video footage on the

16 police. Isn't this -- wasn't this the same place?

17 MR. LAZAREVIC: Yes. Yes. I didn't want to -- I just wanted to

18 identify, I believe, that Your Honours already remembered that it was one

19 room by the staircase.

20 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. So there is no need for repeating this.

21 MR. LAZAREVIC: I have no intention to waste the time of this

22 Tribunal.

23 Q. [Interpretation] Tell me, please, during your duty at the police

24 station, during your shifts of duty, did you notice that any prisoners

25 were mistreated?

Page 17624

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Were they being beaten, verbally abused?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Did it happen during the day, in the evening?

5 A. It usually happened in the evening.

6 Q. To the best of your recollection, who was it that came in the

7 evening and beat and maltreated the prisoners?

8 A. The people wearing camouflage uniforms, accompanied by Chief

9 Todorovic.

10 Q. Just a number of other things related to certain persons at the

11 police station. Can you please tell us, who was the chief of -- the head

12 of the crime department?

13 A. Milos Savic.

14 Q. Who else worked at the crime department, aside from him?

15 A. When I came there, when I started to work, Vlado Sarkanovic, also

16 worked there. After a while he left and went to another job, and then

17 Simo Bozic kept on working with Milos Savic.

18 Q. Was Mr. Zaric a member of the police?

19 A. No.

20 Q. Did you ever see Mr. Zaric come to the police station?

21 A. Once.

22 Q. So during your shifts, you only saw him once.

23 A. Yes, once only.

24 Q. And the only time you saw Mr. Zaric, what sort of uniform was he

25 wearing?

Page 17625

1 A. He was wearing camouflage uniform.

2 Q. This once that you saw him, to the best of your recollection how

3 long did he stay at the police station?

4 A. I think for about half an hour. I can't really be sure, but I

5 think for about half an hour.

6 Q. Excuse me. We need to clarify one thing here. When you say

7 camouflage uniform, do you mean the uniform of the Army of Republika

8 Srpska?

9 A. It was a camouflage uniform that soldiers wore.

10 MR. LAZAREVIC: Your Honours, can we now move to private session

11 for a very brief period.

12 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.

13 [Private session]

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Page 17628

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15 [Open session]

16 THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session.

17 MR. LAZAREVIC: [Interpretation]

18 Q. Sir, you just mentioned this measure that can be imposed of

19 reporting to the police station, and you mentioned a protected witness who

20 was supposed to report to the police station. What does that mean? You

21 said that that meant that this person had to report to the police station

22 once in the morning at 8.00 and once in the evening at 8.00 p.m. First of

23 all, tell me, who was it that imposed this measure of reporting at the

24 police station?

25 A. This measure of reporting at the police station was imposed by the

Page 17629

1 chief of the police station, Stevan Todorovic.

2 Q. And tell me now - of course, without referring to the name of the

3 protected witness - you said that there was a total of five individuals

4 who had this measure of reporting at the police station imposed on them.

5 Can you tell us who the other four persons were Todorovic had ordered this

6 against?

7 A. Hadzialijagic, Lamija; Persic, Delista [phoen]; Izetbegovic,

8 Hasan; Tihic, Pasaga.

9 Q. All right. So that is these five individuals. And now I'm going

10 to ask you about Esma Fitozovic. Tell me, to the best of your knowledge,

11 was she also supposed to report at the police station? Did you

12 see her come in like these other five individuals?

13 A. I do not remember this person having had this particular measure

14 imposed against her. There is no reason why I would not mention her if I

15 remembered her.

16 Q. Thank you, sir. Now I would like to ask you about two other

17 situations. Tell me, do you know Kemal Bobic?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Tell me, do you remember that Kemal Bobic was brought to the

20 police station? If you remember this, was there anything characteristic

21 that you noticed in relation to Kemal Bobic?

22 A. Yes. I remember that he was brought in, because this was an

23 extremely tall man and an extremely big man.

24 Q. Yes. Tell me now, do you remember whether he was also asked to

25 hand in his documents, to empty his pockets, to take off his shoelaces,

Page 17630

1 that is to say, the procedure that was applied when people were brought

2 into the police station?

3 A. Yes. Yes. Like any other person that was brought in and kept at

4 the police station, again a certificate would be issued --

5 Q. Thank you. I think we've already heard what the procedure was, so

6 let's not dwell on it too long because our time is limited.

7 Tell me another thing now: Do you remember who was the person who

8 brought in Kemal Bobic?

9 A. Spasoje Bogdanovic.

10 Q. Tell me, this Spasoje Bogdanovic, does he have a nickname?

11 A. Yes. His nickname is Sole.

12 Q. Thank you very much. Now I would just like to ask you about one

13 more person: Kemal Mehinovic. Do you remember who Kemal Mehinovic is?

14 A. I don't know that person. I don't know that individual.

15 Q. Tell me now: Have you ever seen Milan Simic at the police

16 station? He was one of the accused persons in this case. He was the

17 former president of the executive board and he is now in a wheelchair.

18 A. No, I never saw him at the police station.

19 Q. Did you ever see Lugar and a certain individual called Tihi and

20 Milan Simic beating an individual called Mirsad Jasarevic, nicknamed

21 Bjelko, at the police station? Did you ever see any such thing?

22 A. No.

23 Q. I assume, then, that you could not have participated in something

24 like that yourself.

25 A. No way. No.

Page 17631

1 Q. Tell me finally: Did Simo Zaric ever issue any orders to you

2 while you were on duty?

3 A. No.

4 Q. Did Simo Zaric ever say that you should beat someone, you or

5 anybody else at the police station?

6 A. No.

7 Q. Could Simo Zaric issue orders to you at all, to you or other

8 persons at the police station?

9 A. No.

10 Q. Sir, tell me, how long did you work at the police station in

11 Bosanski Samac, until when?

12 A. Until sometime in August 1992. I have a bad back, so the pain in

13 my back returned and I was compelled to remain immobile. However, the

14 pain would not stop. I moved about very seldom. I hardly ever came to

15 the police station. Then I was given a plaster cast for my chest,

16 abdomen, et cetera, so that I could move about easier. I had to wear this

17 cast for a long time. However, even when it was taken off, the pain would

18 not go away, so I was in hospital in Banja Luka --

19 Q. Thank you very much. Our time is really running out. So you did

20 not work approximately in the period until February 1993; is that right?

21 A. Yes. And then I worked all the way up to the 30th of June, 1997,

22 when I retired.

23 Q. Thank you very much. Just two more brief questions: While you

24 worked at the police station at that time, did you wear a moustache?

25 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter could not hear the answer.

Page 17632

1 MR. LAZAREVIC: [Interpretation]

2 Q. Did they call you Savo Brko [Realtime transcript read in error

3 "Brcko"]?

4 A. Yes.

5 JUDGE MUMBA: The answer before that, did he wear a moustache, the

6 interpreters did not hear the answer.

7 MR. LAZAREVIC: [Interpretation]

8 Q. Could you just repeat the answer to the question whether you wore

9 a moustache.

10 A. Yes.

11 MR. LAZAREVIC: Your Honours, would you bear one second with me.

12 [Defence counsel confer]

13 MR. LAZAREVIC: Your Honours, here what I see in the transcript,

14 it says "Brcko." There is one C too much.

15 JUDGE MUMBA: So what is the correct spelling?

16 MR. LAZAREVIC: B-r-k-o.

17 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Then it will be corrected. Fine.

18 MR. LAZAREVIC: [Interpretation]

19 Q. Let me just ask you something else. That is a very usual nickname

20 for people who wear a moustache in the area that you come from.

21 A. Could you repeat that question.

22 Q. The question is the following: People who wear a moustache in

23 that area that you come from, Samac, they usually go by the nickname of

24 Brko; isn't that right?

25 A. Yes.

Page 17633

1 MR. LAZAREVIC: Your Honours, I have no further questions for this

2 witness.

3 JUDGE MUMBA: Any other counsel? Yes.

4 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] The Defence of Miroslav Tadic has no

5 questions for this witness.

6 JUDGE MUMBA: I see none.

7 The Prosecution?

8 MR. WEINER: The Defence of Blagoje Simic, any questions?

9 JUDGE MUMBA: He would have said so. No.

10 MR. WEINER: Good morning, Your Honours.

11 Cross-examined by Mr. Weiner:

12 Q. Good morning, Mr. Djurdjevic. My name is Phillip Weiner. I work

13 with the Office of the Prosecutor, and I'm going to ask you some questions

14 this morning. All right? Do you understand that?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Now, sir, you worked at the police station for approximately four

17 months; isn't that correct? About four months?

18 A. I worked at the police station for about four months in 1992, but

19 after my sick leave I returned to the police station and I worked until

20 the 30th of June, 1997, and that's where I retired.

21 Q. Now, while you were there, you served as the duty officer. You

22 explained you were one of three or more duty officers. And you were able

23 to see as duty officer what was happening at that station because you'd be

24 there pretty much your whole eight-hour shift inside of that station.

25 A. Yes. But at night, for example, there was no electric light.

Page 17634

1 Yes, I could see what was happening during my working hours, but at night

2 there was no electricity. There were guards there, and you only saw what

3 you could see under those conditions at that time, working conditions.

4 There was no electricity.

5 Q. But by candlelight and flashlight you were still able to see

6 things, you were able to hear things also?

7 A. Yes. Yes.

8 Q. Now, you knew the prisoners -- yes. And you also were able to see

9 and hear what was going on directly across the street at the TO, at the

10 Territorial Defence building, weren't you?

11 A. I could hear what was going on. But see? I was staying at the

12 police station because I was the duty officer, and it was my job, and the

13 TO building also had security, and outside the station there were people

14 who were providing security.

15 Q. Now, you indicated that prisoners were being brought in by the

16 police and the Serbian volunteers or the Serbian specials, whatever you'd

17 like to call them; isn't that correct?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. And Naser Sejdic was one of those Bosanski Samac police officers

20 that was bringing people in; isn't that correct too?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And the specials from Serbia, they were bringing people in. They

23 were arresting people too, in addition to the Bosanski Samac police, such

24 as Naser Sejdic. They were also arresting people, those specials, or they

25 were participating with the Samac police in arresting people, weren't

Page 17635

1 they?

2 A. The specials would occasionally pick someone up. Yes, there was

3 one of them with the police control, but only sporadically it would happen

4 that they brought persons in without the police.

5 Q. So it was mainly the police of Bosanski Samac that was arresting

6 people and bringing them in to you at the duty station.

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Now, when we talk about the specials bringing people in, I don't

9 know if you're aware but Simo Zaric has given a statement to the Office of

10 the Prosecutor and he told the investigators in one of his interviews, on

11 June 3rd, 1998, that "The Samac government and Crisis Staff gave Lugar

12 authority to have a special unit to decide who should be detained and

13 placed in the camps." Isn't that consistent with your testimony, that the

14 specials were bringing prisoners in? They were detaining people and

15 bringing them in to you at the police station.

16 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours -- please, don't answer

17 the question. I have an objection.

18 In his previous testimony, the witness never mentioned this. This

19 is only confusing the witness. They said specials were bringing in

20 persons, but the witness never testified that the Serbian authorities in

21 the Crisis Staff gave Lugar the authority to bring detainees into the

22 police station, and that's what the Prosecutor put to the witness as

23 something that he had previously testified to.

24 MR. WEINER: I said Simo Zaric, Your Honour, has made that

25 statement.

Page 17636

1 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Yes. It was clear that it was the interview

2 of Mr. Simo Zaric, Mr. Krgovic. So you're -- your objection is

3 misconceived, actually, and it's a proper question to put to the witness.

4 He can answer that.

5 MR. WEINER:

6 Q. Sir, Simo Zaric's statement that "The Crisis Staff and the Samac

7 government gave Lugar," one of the leaders of the specials, "authority

8 to have a special unit and decide who would be detained and placed in the

9 camps," isn't that consistent with your testimony that the specials were

10 also arresting and bringing prisoners to the police station?

11 MR. LAZAREVIC: Can we have the number -- page of the number and

12 the number of the evidence.

13 MR. WEINER: That's P142. I believe it's pages 37 and 38, bottom

14 of 37.

15 Q. Isn't that consistent with your testimony, sir? Isn't that --

16 yes, sir. Isn't that consistent with your testimony that they were

17 bringing people in?

18 A. I don't know whether Lugar had obtained any authority from the

19 Crisis Staff, any authorisation. They were bringing people in, but I

20 don't remember that Lugar personally brought anyone in.

21 Q. Sir, do you have any reason to doubt the validity of Simo Zaric's

22 statement that the Crisis Staff gave Lugar authority to arrest people and

23 bring them to detention in Samac?

24 A. I don't think I could say anything about that, because I am simply

25 not familiar with that.

Page 17637

1 Q. No, I'm not asking you if you're familiar with the decision. I'm

2 asking you: Do you have any reason to question the validity or the

3 honesty of Simo Zaric's statement that he made that the Crisis Staff

4 and -- gave Lugar -- I'm sorry, the Crisis Staff gave Lugar authorisation

5 to arrest people? Do you know of any reason why Simo Zaric would lie

6 about that? That's my question.

7 A. I have no doubts about Mr. Zaric's sincerity, but I simply can't

8 answer your question.

9 Q. [Microphone not activated] No, that's all I'm asking you. If

10 you're aware --

11 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for the counsel, please.

12 MR. WEINER:

13 Q. I'm only asking you if you're aware of any bias which would cause

14 Mr. Zaric to lie when he makes that statement. I'm not asking about the

15 information contained therein. Just, are you aware of any bias which

16 would make him lie when he makes that statement? That's all.

17 A. I think that Mr. Zaric perhaps has no reason to lie.

18 Q. Okay. Thank you.

19 MR. LAZAREVIC: Your Honours, I didn't want to interrupt the

20 examination, but I was just informed from my client that if it is

21 possible - and it's just a matter of fairness for them - just when our

22 colleagues are referring to some portions of Mr. Zaric's interview or

23 something like that, if this could be placed on the ELMO because they

24 would know what we are talking about, what page, and --

25 MR. WEINER: Your Honour, we're limited in cross-examination. And

Page 17638

1 generally, if it's one phrase or one sentence, we don't place it on the

2 ELMO. If it's paragraphs, I'm happy to do so. If you would like I could

3 do it but --

4 JUDGE MUMBA: There's no harm in doing it. You have the document,

5 the ELMO is there, and it's operational.

6 MR. WEINER: And he's answered the question. Do you still want to

7 place --

8 JUDGE MUMBA: If you are going to continue.

9 MR. WEINER: No. Thank you.

10 Q. Now, sir, let's continue on: The people who were being arrested,

11 those were Muslims and Croats that were being brought to you each day?

12 A. Well, Serbs too were being brought in, not only Muslims and

13 Croats. Well, in fact, in most cases, yes, those were Muslims and Croats,

14 the people that were being brought in, but it did happen that Serbs too

15 were brought in. They would be kept there and then released, same as

16 Muslims and Croats. They would be brought in and some of them were then

17 released.

18 Q. Sir, the people who were being held at the SUP were non-Serbs,

19 they were Muslims and Croats; isn't that correct?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. The people who were being beaten and mistreated were Muslims and

22 Croats; isn't that correct?

23 A. I'm not getting any interpretation.

24 Q. I'll ask the question again, sir. The people who were being held

25 and beaten and mistreated at the SUP or the police station were Muslims

Page 17639

1 and Croats.

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And you're aware, sir, that these people were being arrested and

4 held and beaten based on their ethnicity, being Muslims and Croats; isn't

5 that correct?

6 A. No. Those persons, for the most part, were brought in because

7 they were members of some of the military units, military units of the SDA

8 or of the HVO. Although, I do remember one person, Zaimbegovic, and I

9 heard that he was not a member of any of the military units. But

10 according to the information we had, the persons being brought in were

11 mostly members of some military units.

12 Q. Sir, you talked about a clergyman who was brought in that you

13 know - without saying his name - was he a member of any military unit?

14 A. No.

15 Q. We had a blind man or a partially blind man testify here

16 yesterday, an Andrija Petric. Was he a member of any military unit?

17 MR. LAZAREVIC: Just a matter of clarification. We heard him

18 yesterday. He was never brought in the police station, just -- just that

19 correction.

20 MR. WEINER:

21 Q. He was arrested and brought to the high school. Was he a member

22 of any military unit, the blind man?

23 A. I don't know Mr. Petric. I only met him in The Hague. When I

24 came on the 28th of April, he was not brought in then. I don't remember

25 him being brought in. I probably would have recognised him.

Page 17640

1 Q. Sir, having been in the military, are you aware of any military --

2 any military units or any armies in the world which utilised blind people

3 and issued them weapons?

4 A. No.

5 Q. Sir, Simo Zaric was a signatory of a military document from the

6 command of the 2nd Posavina Brigade. And on page 2, it's P127. It's

7 page -- he indicates that the isolation of Croats and Muslims was followed

8 without any criteria. He's indicating that there was no criteria

9 supporting any of those arrests. Isn't it true those people were arrested

10 because they were Muslims and Croats? That's the only basis for their

11 arrests?

12 A. Those people for the most part were members of military units.

13 Q. Simo Zaric -- I'm sorry, that same document that Simo Zaric has

14 called you to testify today states -- it's page 4: "Numerous arrests on

15 trumped-up charges." Trumped-up charges, false charges. Again I ask you:

16 Isn't it true that the only reason those people were arrested was on the

17 basis of their ethnicity?

18 MR. LAZAREVIC: It's a repetitive question. It's the third time

19 that actually the same question was posed, whether it was through

20 Mr. Zaric's interview or through some other documents. He's already

21 explained what his knowledge about people who were arrested, and I don't

22 see where this can take us by posing one and the same question four times.

23 MR. WEINER: Your Honour, I'm going to ask him that and see if he

24 changes his testimony, and then I'm going to ask him that his boss, Stevan

25 Todorovic, who ordered the arrests has indicated that these were unlawful

Page 17641

1 arrests and detentions of the non-Serb population, and ask based on that

2 if the person who issued those arrest orders has said that will he now

3 change his testimony.

4 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. You can go ahead.

5 MR. WEINER:

6 Q. Simo Zaric has indicated, the man who has called you to testify,

7 in the document he signed that those people were arrested based on

8 trumped-up charges. These were non-Serbs. So again I'm going to ask you:

9 Isn't it true that they were arrested based on their ethnicity? Weren't a

10 lot of those people arrested solely on the basis of their ethnicity, being

11 Muslims and Croats?

12 A. I came from Rijeka in early December 1991. From the 1st of

13 January, 1992 I was mainly staying in Obudovac. I did spend time in Samac

14 occasionally but not too often. I didn't go out very much. I was not

15 particularly well off. I had just moved recently. Therefore, I couldn't

16 know what the situation was like in the town and its surroundings, because

17 I didn't move about that much. And naturally, whenever there was an order

18 by the chief, there was nothing I could do about that. It would have been

19 the same in any police station in the world. It was an order that had to

20 be carried out. It wasn't our decision to make whether we would bring

21 certain people in or not. Ours was to bring them in and then as far as

22 their release was concerned, their potential release, it would have been

23 the chief's decision to make.

24 Q. Your chief, Stevan Todorovic, has pled guilty to committing

25 various crimes, very serious crimes, and he's admitted to the unlawful

Page 17642

1 arrest and detention and confinement of Bosnian Serbs -- I'm sorry,

2 Bosnian Croats and Muslims and other non-Serb civilians in inhumane

3 conditions. Stevan Todorovic, at page 12 of the judgment, his sentencing

4 judgment says, "Stevan Todorovic," the person who gave you those orders to

5 arrest, "has admitted to participating in the unlawful arrest and

6 detention of non-Serb civilians in the Bosanski Samac region." Since the

7 man who gave you orders has admitted that those were unlawful arrests of

8 the non-Serb population, would you agree, sir, that those people were

9 being arrested on the basis of their ethnicity?

10 A. When we received orders, we carried them out. If Chief Todorovic

11 admitted to this before this Honourable Court, then we were suffering from

12 a delusion. He was my direct superior. He was our chief. I was carrying

13 out his orders.

14 Q. Well, you testified, sir, that you were a professional police

15 officer. Let's talk about Todorovic's orders and what was going on in

16 that police station. What you saw in that police station was unlike any

17 other police station you'd worked in; isn't that correct, sir?

18 [Trial Chamber confers]

19 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, proceed, Mr. Weiner.

20 MR. WEINER:

21 Q. Sir, my question to you is: You worked as a professional police

22 officer for most of your career. What you saw in that police station in

23 the spring and early summer of 1992 was unlike anything you'd ever seen

24 previously in any police station; isn't that correct?

25 A. That's correct, but the circumstances were different too. I had

Page 17643

1 been a police officer in peacetime, and this was something completely

2 different. We tried - we did try- we professional police officers to do

3 our job as professionally as possible under those conditions.

4 Q. Now, when, sir, even in wartime conditions, you're not allowed to

5 beat, to torture, to sexually assault prisoners, or murder them; isn't

6 that correct?

7 A. Yes, that was not allowed, and we tried to avoid that as far as we

8 could and to suppress that. Whenever we could help people, assist people

9 in anything, we always did invariably.

10 Q. But, sir, you know at that police station that's what was

11 happening; people were being mistreated, people were being beaten, people

12 were being tortured, there was a murder there, and people were being

13 sexually assaulted. We've had uncontested evidence of that in this trial

14 and Stevan Todorovic has admitted to all of those things, your police

15 chief.

16 A. Yes. In my shift, when I was on duty, there were two cases of

17 mistreatment. It mainly happened when the chief was there. But there had

18 been many more attempts, but we police officers prevented it from

19 happening. We took people somewhere else so they would not be mistreated

20 at the police station.

21 Q. I understand that.

22 A. We --

23 Q. I understand that, sir. Let me ask you just a few questions,

24 because we have limited time: While you were on duty, while you were the

25 duty officer, there was a very serious incident, there was a murder

Page 17644

1 within, I don't know how many metres, maybe 20 metres from you a man was

2 murdered. Antesa was beaten to death by Stevan Todorovic and other police

3 officers - isn't that true - while you were on duty, 10 metres away, 20

4 metres away from you a man was beaten to death? Anto Brandic, nicknamed

5 Antesa, July 29th, 1992, isn't that true?

6 A. Antesa.

7 Q. Antesa.

8 A. Yes. I was on duty that evening. And at about 10.00 in the

9 evening, Stevan Todorovic came into the room with four or five persons I

10 didn't know. There was no electricity. We were using candlelight. He

11 asked me, "What's happening?" And I said, "Everything is normal,

12 everything is just as usual." And they all came out into the hall. They

13 opened the door. There was a candle in the hall, one candle perhaps.

14 Then you could hear people moaning and crying for help. You could hear

15 blows. This went on for a while. It lasted for half an hour, perhaps a

16 little longer. I know that it was near the end of my shift when they left

17 and I was getting ready to leave too and to be relieved, and I heard a man

18 moaning, asking for water. I went into the office and this man named

19 Antesa was sitting on the floor, his head against the chair, and he asked

20 me personally to bring him water. I did give him water. He drank some.

21 He thanked me. In the meantime, the new shift had arrived. I left the

22 police station, and it was only the next day that I learned from my

23 colleagues that Antesa had died. However, they did not provide any

24 details.

25 Q. Did you get a good look at Mr. Antesa or -- when you saw -- when

Page 17645

1 you gave him the water? Was he in a bloody condition?

2 A. It was night-time, candlelights. I couldn't really see him well.

3 I don't think he had suffered any injuries, but that's only as far as I

4 could tell. He drank the water. He thanked me. Nothing more.

5 Q. So you --

6 A. And then I left the station.

7 Q. You couldn't see the cross that they carved into his head with a

8 knife? You couldn't see that?

9 A. No.

10 Q. Sir, would you also agree with me in addition to the beatings, the

11 conditions that the prisoners were being held, overcrowded, no shower

12 facilities, no sinks in the room, no beds, these were poor, inhumane

13 conditions? Once again, your chief, Stevan Todorovic, has admitted that

14 the conditions there were inhumane. Would you agree?

15 A. Let me put it this way: Persons who were in one section of the

16 TO, there were beds over there. At the police station there were no

17 beds. However, they were using water and the toilet. No one ever said

18 they shouldn't. They were using even the toilet at the TO building. The

19 policemen put up a makeshift toilet over there using pipes from an

20 electric heater so that people could wash themselves during the summer

21 heat. The water at the TO building, there was a pump. On one occasion,

22 in the morning, they said the pump was out of order, so we brought water

23 there and we mended the pump. We tried to secure at least some decent

24 conditions for those people who were there.

25 Q. [Previous interpretation continues] ... decent. But you know

Page 17646

1 those conditions weren't good, and your chief, Stevan Todorovic, has

2 indicated or has admitted that they were inhumane. Isn't that true?

3 Aren't you aware of that?

4 A. Inhumane, yes. But we tried to do the best we could for those

5 people.

6 Q. Okay. Now, sir, you testified about different people coming and

7 going. You said police officers were arresting people, there were guards,

8 police officers also guarding prisoners, volunteers were arresting people,

9 volunteers were in the building, Todorovic was entering and exiting the

10 building. Isn't that true? Isn't that correct, what I've said so far?

11 A. Yes. Yes, he'd go in and out.

12 Q. And the -- as did the specials and police officers. Basically

13 everyone had a job. Police officers were guarding, they were arresting

14 people.

15 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Weiner, that was exactly your previous question.

16 MR. WEINER: He just answered about Todorovic. I'm just trying

17 to go through the roles of the different people.

18 JUDGE MUMBA: He had said yes.

19 MR. WEINER: Okay.

20 JUDGE MUMBA: And then -- yes, they would go in and out.

21 MR. WEINER:

22 Q. And you also noticed -- or let me ask you this: Were you aware

23 that the JNA through the 4th Detachment also had certain functions, they

24 were out guarding the river banks, patrolling, protecting or defending the

25 town? Were you aware of that?

Page 17647

1 MR. LAZAREVIC: I just would like to clarify with -- my learned

2 colleague to clarify this question. Is it a question that is separated,

3 guarding of prisoners in the police and guarding banks of the river and --

4 embankments of the river? I don't see the relation between those two.

5 MR. WEINER: Your Honour, I'm just going through the different

6 roles. You had the police doing one function, arresting, guarding

7 prisoners, the JNA had a function, everybody's --

8 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. The question is quite clear as to which groups

9 the Prosecution is referring to and what they were doing, and he's asking

10 the witness whether the witness was aware of that.

11 MR. WEINER:

12 Q. And while they were doing that, you're aware the JNA also had a

13 role or the 4th Detachment of the JNA; they were out guarding the town,

14 they were on the river banks, in the trenches guarding against an attack?

15 A. I don't know who was defending the town before I came to the

16 police station. In the meantime, there was an announcement that the JNA

17 was withdrawing from the territory of Bosnia and Herzegovina and that --

18 Q. But --

19 A. -- the Army of Republika Srpska was being established.

20 Q. But before that, before the JNA withdrew and before the 4th

21 Detachment became part of the 2nd Posavina Brigade of the Army of

22 Republika Srpska, you saw JNA soldiers or 4th Detachment soldiers in the

23 town, didn't you?

24 A. No.

25 Q. Well, you saw Simo Zaric dressed in his JNA uniform come to the

Page 17648

1 police station.

2 A. Well, yes. I saw Simo Zaric. But I simply didn't know about how

3 the army was being reorganised. I don't know how that went.

4 Q. And Simo Zaric has testified -- I'm sorry, has given a statement

5 indicating that he would visit the SUP between April 17th and May 1st at

6 two to three hours a day to interview people. And you saw Simo Zaric one

7 day while you were the duty officer at the SUP.

8 MR. LAZAREVIC: Can we have the page according to the instructions

9 of the Trial Chamber.

10 MR. WEINER: Page 18. Page 18 in --

11 MR. LAZAREVIC: Interview of --

12 MR. WEINER: Interview of Simo Zaric. One -- I believe it's 141,

13 P141 -- 140? 141.

14 MR. LAZAREVIC: Can we have it on the ELMO, just to make sure

15 what -- and then again, just one thing: This witness said that on the

16 28th of April he came first to SUP, so asking him for previous period is

17 just not fair to the witness.

18 MR. WEINER: He could have -- he was the duty officer. He spoke

19 to other officers every day. He's there watching everything. He sees

20 Simo Zaric come in. He has to have some knowledge of what's happening

21 there.

22 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. And if he doesn't know, he can say so.

23 MR. WEINER:

24 Q. Were you aware that Simo Zaric had been -- you saw Simo Zaric come

25 in and interview someone while you were there. Were you aware that he had

Page 17649

1 been there almost on a daily basis from April 17th to May 1st and was

2 interviewing prisoners?

3 A. I categorically assert that from the 28th of April until I went to

4 hospital I only saw Mr. Zaric once. I don't remember the actual date. I

5 don't know the date.

6 Q. All right. Sir, do you have any reason to disbelieve his

7 statement that he was there for two to three hours a day from the 17th of

8 April to the May 1st, his statement? Do you have any reason to --

9 A. No. No, no reason. No reason not to believe it.

10 Q. Thank you.

11 A. If that's what he stated.

12 Q. Okay. Thank you.

13 MR. WEINER: Thank you, Madam Usher.

14 Q. Now, sir, having been a career -- having been a career police

15 officer, was that common to have members of the military coming into the

16 police stations to interview prisoners?

17 A. No.

18 Q. Had you ever seen that happen before, military officers in any of

19 your police stations coming in, interviewing civilian prisoners?

20 A. You mean before, before the war, or are you actually talking about

21 the war, the war operations?

22 Q. [Previous interpretation continues] ...

23 A. Well, you see, if there were cases when crimes were committed,

24 when civilian and military authorities worked together, then there was

25 this kind of cooperation, some people were brought in, there were

Page 17650

1 interviews regarding the crimes that had been committed, the evidence that

2 there was, et cetera. I did have such cases. That the military actually

3 addressed the police in relation to the commission of certain crimes, and

4 also if military personnel were committing crimes, there was cooperation,

5 but this was regulated by law.

6 Q. And that's what you had in Samac when Simo Zaric was coming in,

7 interviewing civilian prisoners and other people, if they came in from the

8 military to interview prisoners, civilian military cooperation?

9 MR. LAZAREVIC: It's a call -- it's a call for speculation. First

10 of all, this witness never said that he knew what Mr. Zaric was doing

11 there. Mr. Zaric could also come to socialise with his friend or

12 something else. How could he answer that? He saw him once, in 30

13 minutes, he didn't know where he was going and what he was doing.

14 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. But he had -- but the Prosecution had put the

15 interview statement of Mr. Zaric, where he indicated that he was spending

16 that much time interviewing prisoners, so it follows from there.

17 And Mr. Weiner, your time.

18 MR. WEINER: I just have two very quick issues, totally two

19 minutes after this, once we finish this police issue.

20 Q. So, sir, the fact that Simo Zaric in JNA uniform on that one

21 occasion you saw him but is coming to the police station to interview the

22 prisoners as part of the JNA, that's consistent with what you had seen,

23 civilian military cooperation on investigations, isn't it?

24 A. I mentioned a little while ago what kind of cooperation existed

25 between the military and the police, and that was regulated by law.

Page 17651

1 However, I don't know on which basis Zaric came. Perhaps he went

2 upstairs. Nobody informed me, for example, whether he went to see the

3 chief of police or the chief of the crime investigation service. That is

4 something I cannot say.

5 Q. He's given a statement indicating he went there on behalf of the

6 JNA to interview prisoners. Isn't that consistent with civilian military

7 cooperation? He, as a JNA officer, is going to a civilian police station

8 to interview prisoners.

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Okay.

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Now, and these are prisoners that were arrested by Bosanski Samac

13 police, or the specials. That's the only reason they could have gotten

14 there.

15 A. Could you please repeat that question. Could you somehow express

16 it more specifically. I don't seem to understand.

17 Q. If he's interviewing people, prisoners, at that police station,

18 these had to have been prisoners arrested either by your police or the

19 specials, because there was no one else arresting people according to your

20 testimony.

21 A. Yes. However, when he was up there, not a single person, at least

22 when I was duty officer, not a single person went up there. I mean, they

23 were on the ground floor and he went upstairs, and not a single person was

24 asked to go upstairs.

25 Q. Now, one more question, and then we'll get off the subject: Was

Page 17652

1 the JNA out arresting people and bringing them to your police station?

2 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Weiner, your time is up. I've extended it for

3 five minutes. It's over now.

4 MR. WEINER: Your Honour, I just want to cover two other very

5 quick issues, which will raise, concerning, Kemal Bobic --

6 JUDGE MUMBA: No, Mr. Weiner, your time is up.

7 MR. WEINER: All right. Your Honour, then may I make an offer of

8 proof for an appellate basis?

9 JUDGE MUMBA: Why?

10 MR. WEINER: Because I want to cover -- put on that I would have

11 questioned him concerning certain areas.

12 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Weiner, you knew very well that your time was

13 limited to so many minutes and you kept on repeating questions.

14 MR. WEINER: It would only be two minutes, Your Honour.

15 JUDGE MUMBA: Last two minutes?

16 MR. WEINER: Yes. Thank you.

17 Q. Just very quickly, sir: You indicated that you talked about Kemal

18 Bobic's arrest and you indicated a person who arrested him. Do you have

19 any records or any diary relating to who arrested whom while you were at

20 the police station? Have you maintained a diary or do you have any

21 records?

22 A. No.

23 Q. And you --

24 A. No, I don't keep any sort of diary. I'm a retired person.

25 Q. And you weren't present when police officers went to Kemal Bobic's

Page 17653

1 house and you don't know who actually went to his house and arrested him,

2 do you?

3 A. He was brought in by this Spasoje Bogdanovic, nicknamed Sole.

4 There were many policemen whose names and surnames I didn't know. So

5 somebody was probably with him, but I remember that he personally brought

6 him in, but there were so many policemen there whose names I didn't know.

7 I knew them by sight.

8 Q. So you don't know who else accompanied that one officer in the

9 arrest of Kemal Bobic?

10 A. There were three policemen, but I don't know, except for this

11 Spasoje Bogdanovic, I don't know who the other two men were. I know

12 them by sight, but I don't know their names and surnames. I don't know.

13 Q. Thank you very much, sir.

14 MR. WEINER: I'd like to thank the Court for giving me the extra

15 few minutes. Thank you.

16 JUDGE MUMBA: Questions from the other counsel?

17 MR. PANTELIC: Yes, Your Honour. Very briefly.

18 Cross-examined by Mr. Pantelic:

19 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Djurdjevic, I am Pantelic,

20 Defence counsel for Blagoje Simic. You tried to explain a short while ago

21 and you were interrupted by the Prosecutor that policemen also had

22 problems when they tried to help or when they tried to keep people who

23 wanted to create incidents away from the police station. Could you please

24 complete your thought. What did you want to say when you started out by

25 saying that policemen had problems too? What kind of problems and who

Page 17654

1 created problems for them?

2 A. Well, this is the way it was: Policemen had problems. People

3 came there, civilians. Then people from Serbia came in some kind of

4 uniform. I don't know on what kind of grounds. But at any rate, they

5 came, people in uniform, people in civilian clothes. They were looking

6 for things. They were interested in something. They were under the

7 influence of alcohol. That was the situation. So in that situation, the

8 policemen really tried to protect these people, not to allow them access,

9 and some policemen were even physically attacked, even things like that

10 happened.

11 Q. So let us draw a conclusion. You and your other colleagues had

12 problems that were caused by people, specials, who came to the police

13 station to maltreat people; is that right?

14 A. Yes, that's right. That's right.

15 Q. In order to have a complete picture, I have to put another

16 question to you: The Prosecutor here quoted the statement of Stevan

17 Todorovic, who confessed what he confessed, and you explained what your

18 knowledge in this relation was. With a view to objectivity, I have to

19 tell you that Stevan Todorovic testified before this court that there were

20 arrests of Croats and Muslims because of armed rebellion, because of

21 illegal arming, and that he personally through his services filed criminal

22 charges against these persons to the military court in Bijeljina.

23 MR. WEINER: I object. Does he have --

24 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Weiner.

25 MR. WEINER: -- in the transcript that he's referring to?

Page 17655

1 MR. PANTELIC: Yes, Your Honour. It was during the

2 cross-examination of Stevan Todorovic in June last year. So it's just a

3 gist of his testimony. And finally, we have also admitted evidence here,

4 a criminal charge signed by Stevan Todorovic against Kemal Mehinovic.

5 This is the exhibit in this -- in this case. So that's a gist that I

6 would like to put to this witness.

7 [Trial Chamber confers]

8 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Pantelic, can you give us the transcript page,

9 please.

10 MR. PANTELIC: Well, if you just allow me additional time during

11 the break, because it was just raised -- that matter was raised during the

12 cross-examination of my learned friend, so I can find the transcript

13 during the break.

14 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Because the Prosecution would like to make

15 sure that what you have put into the gist is actually correct.

16 MR. PANTELIC: Okay. Yes.

17 JUDGE MUMBA: So you can proceed with other questions.

18 MR. PANTELIC: Yes. Thank you.

19 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Djurdjevic, tell me, did you have any

20 knowledge about criminal charges being filed from the Samac police station

21 at the military court in Bijeljina? Did you have any knowledge about

22 that?

23 A. Yes, I did. Criminal charges were filed there.

24 Q. Tell me, what is your personal knowledge about this? Did

25 Dr. Blagoje Simic ever take part in the beating of detainees? Did he

Page 17656

1 maltreat people at the police station? What do you know about that?

2 A. No. No.

3 Q. And what is your personal knowledge regarding the following,

4 whether Blagoje Simic ever ordered the arrest and bringing of people into

5 custody at the police station? Do you know anything about that?

6 MR. WEINER: I object.

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I don't.

8 MR. WEINER: I move to strike that. That's outside the scope of

9 cross-examination. I didn't raise anything about Dr. Blagoje Simic. And

10 if he wants to raise it in cross, I'll ask for re-cross about Dr. Blagoje

11 Simic never going there to help any of those prisoners either as a

12 physician.

13 MR. PANTELIC: Well, maybe I can be more precise Your Honour, no

14 problem with me.

15 Q. [Interpretation] Tell me, do you know whether the Crisis Staff as

16 an institution ordered the arrest of people?

17 A. No.

18 MR. PANTELIC: Your Honour, I don't know, maybe my learned friend

19 Lazarevic has some questions, but I think it's about time for our break.

20 And in the meantime, I will check the transcripts for this particular

21 page. Thank you.

22 [Trial Chamber confers]

23 JUDGE MUMBA: We'll take our break and continue our proceedings at

24 11.00 hours.

25 --- Recess taken at 10.28 a.m.

Page 17657

1 --- On resuming at 11.00 a.m.

2 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Pantelic.

3 MR. PANTELIC: Yes. Thank you, Your Honours. I am grateful to

4 the Trial Chamber to allow me to make the overview of the previous

5 transcript during the break, and I have some -- some annotations.

6 First of all, during the cross-examination of Mr. Stevan Todorovic

7 by me. It was on June 20th, 2002. Unfortunately, I have only -- only a

8 working version of the LiveNote transcript. It's page 32, line 19 and

9 24. My question was to Mr. Todorovic whether he filed criminal reports

10 with all relevant documents to the military prosecutor in Bijeljina, and

11 his answer was yes. Then my learned friend Mr. Lukic on several

12 occasions -- first of all, it was June 17th, 2002, also page -- page 17,

13 it's a reference to the working version of LiveNote transcript, line 2

14 until 5, asked Mr. Todorovic whether criminal reports were submitted to

15 the relevant authorities in military and then before the military court in

16 Bijeljina. Todorovic said yes. Then Mr. Lukic asked him on June 16th,

17 2002, page 10, line 23 until 25, and page 11, line 1 until 3, whether the

18 criminal reports filed to the military prosecutor throughout 1992 and

19 1993. He said yes -- Mr. Todorovic said yes.

20 JUDGE MUMBA: I think that is sufficient, if those are the --

21 MR. PANTELIC: And finally, Your Honour.

22 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.

23 MR. PANTELIC: Just through my learned friend Mr. Lukic on that

24 day, he introduced a criminal report filed by Mr. Todorovic to military

25 prosecution and the exhibit number is D54/3.

Page 17658

1 JUDGE MUMBA: Very well.

2 MR. PANTELIC: Thank you.

3 Q. [Interpretation] So in this context, Mr. Djurdjevic, you will

4 recall what I asked you a few minutes ago and you have now heard all these

5 details. You heard what Todorovic said under oath before this Trial

6 Chamber. Do you have any reason to doubt the truthfulness of his words

7 when he said that he sent part of the criminal reports filed to the court

8 in Bijeljina?

9 A. The criminal reports were sent on to the military prosecutor's

10 office in Bijeljina.

11 Q. Thank you, Mr. Djurdjevic.

12 MR. PANTELIC: Your Honour, I have finished with my

13 re-examination. Thank you.

14 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.

15 MR. WEINER: Your Honour, could the witness just be asked based on

16 page 9114 if he doubts Mr. Todorovic's answer that the Crisis Staff in

17 fact approved this undertaking which were all the arrests? Can the

18 witness be asked that, if he's aware of that, if the Crisis Staff approved

19 it or that he doubts Mr. Todorovic's answer that the Crisis Staff approved

20 the arrests.

21 JUDGE MUMBA: What --

22 [Trial Chamber confers]

23 JUDGE MUMBA: You want to put that to the witness now?

24 MR. WEINER: Absolutely, in response to the issue that they just

25 raised, Mr. Todorovic's testimony.

Page 17659

1 MR. PANTELIC: Your Honour --

2 [Trial Chamber confers]

3 JUDGE MUMBA: No, the Trial Chamber does not accept that you

4 should do that.

5 Mr. Lukic, any questions?

6 Mr. Lazarevic, re-examination?

7 MR. LAZAREVIC: Yes, Your Honour, I will do it very briefly.

8 Re-examined by Mr. Lazarevic:

9 Q. [Interpretation] During the re-examination by the Prosecutor,

10 Mr. Djurdjevic, you said that there were Serbs as well who were beaten at

11 the police station. Can you tell us, to the best of your recollection,

12 the names of some of these Serbs who had been beaten up at the police

13 station.

14 A. Jovo Stevanovic, from Samac; Milan Antic, nicknamed Talijan

15 from Samac.

16 Q. Thank you very much. The Prosecutor asked you about Mr. Kemal

17 Bobic, and you answered that in addition to this, Mr. Bogdanovic,

18 nicknamed Sole, there were two other policemen that brought him in. I

19 think you said three persons. I apologise. And these were people you

20 knew by sight. Do you know Naser Sejdic nicknamed Cakar?

21 A. Yes, I know him.

22 Q. Was he among these policemen who brought Kemal Bobic?

23 A. No.

24 Q. Sir, now I'm going to read something to you. I'm going to read it

25 out to you in English, and it has to do with the answers that you gave to

Page 17660

1 the Prosecutor in relation to the arrest of [redacted] and the fact that

2 he had been detained at the TO and the SUP.

3 [In English] "There was one human guard at the TO --"

4 MR. WEINER: Excuse me, Your Honour.

5 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.

6 MR. WEINER: Can we go into private session and delete certain

7 names?

8 JUDGE MUMBA: That was part of private session.

9 MR. LAZAREVIC: Oh, I apologise. It just slipped my mind. I

10 apologise. Can we just go to --

11 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.

12 MR. LAZAREVIC: I apologise.

13 [Private session]

14 [redacted]

15 [redacted]

16 [redacted]

17 [redacted]

18 [redacted]

19 [redacted]

20 [redacted]

21 [redacted]

22 [redacted]

23 [redacted]

24 [redacted]

25 [redacted]

Page 17661

1 [redacted]

2 [redacted]

3 [redacted]

4 [redacted]

5 [redacted]

6 [redacted]

7 [redacted]

8 [redacted]

9 [redacted]

10 [redacted]

11 [redacted]

12 [redacted]

13 [redacted]

14 [redacted]

15 [Open session]

16 THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session.

17 JUDGE WILLIAMS: The first question pertains to Mr. Kemal Bobic.

18 What I'd be interested to know is after, as you've told us this morning,

19 after you took Mr. Babic's shoelaces and so on and he went into the room

20 across the corridor, I believe. Is that so? Across the corridor from the

21 duty station where you were.

22 A. Yes, that was down the corridor, down the corridor.

23 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Do you know what happened to him after he entered

24 that room, down the corridor from the duty station?

25 A. While I was on duty, nothing happened to him. He was kept like

Page 17662

1 everyone else, and during my shift nothing happened to him.

2 JUDGE WILLIAMS: So when you were on your shift, you did not see

3 him taken to see the chief of police, Mr. Stevan Todorovic?

4 A. I don't remember that. The moment he was brought there and then

5 that he was immediately brought to Chief Todorovic, I certainly don't

6 remember any such thing.

7 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Did you ever see at some point in time when you

8 were on your shift Mr. Bobic's face, in particular, looking bruised and

9 bloody?

10 A. No.

11 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Okay. Next question: To your knowledge, did

12 Mr. Simo Zaric ever release detained persons from the police station?

13 A. No.

14 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Do the names Mr. Jusufovic and Mr. Fadil

15 Sabanovic mean anything to you?

16 A. I don't know these people.

17 JUDGE WILLIAMS: And last question: You said this morning that -

18 and I believe this was page 38, line 4 - that the police really tried to

19 protect the detained persons. I'm just wondering why, therefore, when you

20 were on duty in the duty station that you stayed in the duty station

21 hearing Mr. Todorovic and the other persons beating up the man nicknamed

22 Antesa and did nothing. If the police were trying to protect these

23 persons, as you were saying. I'd just be interested to know why it

24 appears from what you've said that you did nothing, apart from giving him

25 water after the event.

Page 17663

1 A. Well, he was the chief, the police chief. And those people who

2 came -- I was only the duty officer. I was not a commander. I was just a

3 police officer, a low-down police officer. My duty was to be there in the

4 duty station, and there were other policemen in the corridor outside. I

5 was the duty officer, and that's where I was supposed to be. There was

6 nothing else I could do. It was my direct superior who actually came. He

7 came to the station. It was my commander, my superior. I was not in a

8 position to order him to do anything. He was in a position to order me.

9 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Thank you.

10 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you for giving evidence. We are now

11 finished. You can leave the courtroom.

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

13 [The witness withdrew]

14 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Pantelic.

15 MR. PANTELIC: Your Honour, would it be an appropriate time to

16 address the Chamber with very brief issue --

17 JUDGE MUMBA: Is it regarding the next witness?

18 MR. PANTELIC: No, no.

19 JUDGE MUMBA: No, let's finish -- let's hear the next witness

20 first. I did say yesterday that I will give you time.

21 MR. PANTELIC: Yes. Thank you, Your Honour.

22 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Who is examining the next witness?

23 MR. LAZAREVIC: Mr. Pisarevic will do.

24 JUDGE MUMBA: This is Mr. Goran Buzakovic?

25 MR. LAZAREVIC: Precisely, Your Honour.

Page 17664

1 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. The witness can be brought in.

2 According to the summary, this witness is discussing isolated

3 incident regarding Esad and Safet Dagovic and the collection of weaponry

4 from their house and from the cellar from the same witnesses, from their

5 house.

6 MR. LAZAREVIC: Precisely. So --

7 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. And his time is limited to 30 minutes.

8 MR. LAZAREVIC: Yes. So Mr. Pisarevic will stick to the

9 limitation that we have and --

10 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Because I notice with other witnesses, the

11 summaries were being exceeded. Yes.

12 [The witness entered court]

13 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Can the witness make the solemn declaration.

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

15 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

16 WITNESS: GORAN BUZAKOVIC

17 [Witness answered through interpreter]

18 JUDGE MUMBA: Please sit down.

19 Yes, Mr. Pisarevic.

20 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours.

21 Examined by Mr. Pisarevic:

22 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Buzakovic. We have already

23 discussed the way your testimony would unfold. We've discussed the

24 technical aspects. So please, if you could just adhere to everything that

25 we have agreed on. If you have a problem, please let me know. We shall

Page 17665

1 try to keep it as short as possible.

2 Please for the transcript state your first and last name?

3 A. Goran Buzakovic.

4 Q. Thank you. When were you born?

5 A. On the 8th of April, 1965.

6 Q. Where were you born?

7 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters didn't get the answer. Could

8 the witness please be asked to speak closer to the microphone too.

9 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation]

10 Q. Where were you born? The interpreters didn't get the answer, so

11 if you could just repeat, please.

12 A. Gradacac.

13 Q. Gradacac is in Bosnia and Herzegovina, isn't it?

14 A. Yes, it is. It's in the municipality of Samac [as interpreted].

15 Q. Where did you complete your education?

16 A. In Samac. I completed my primary and secondary school in Samac.

17 MR. LAZAREVIC: Your Honours, I have one intervention to the

18 transcript. First on, it is on page 49, answer on the line 9. It's not

19 properly recorded. It's the neighbouring municipality of -- to Samac.

20 This is what the witness said. Gradacac is actually not in the

21 municipality of Samac and the witness has just said it's a neighbouring

22 municipality.

23 JUDGE MUMBA: Well, can he give the name of the municipality?

24 That would be much clearer.

25 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation]

Page 17666

1 Q. Mr. Buzakovic, you've told us that you were born in Gradacac.

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. My question was: Is Gradacac in Bosnia and Herzegovina?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Is Gradacac a municipality neighbouring on the municipality of

6 Samac in the town of Samac?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. What's your occupation, please?

9 A. I am a post official.

10 Q. Where did you live up to the 17th of April, 1992?

11 A. In Samac.

12 Q. Where do you reside now?

13 A. In Samac.

14 Q. Throughout the war, between 1992 and 1995, did you stay in Samac

15 the whole time?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Are you married?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. How many children do you have?

20 A. I have two sons.

21 Q. Did you serve in the JNA?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Where and when?

24 A. In Gornji Milanovac, in 1985 and 1986, in Gorjni Milanovac and

25 then I got a transfer to Kikanda.

Page 17667

1 Q. Thank you. Will you please state your ethnic background.

2 A. I'm an ethnic Serb.

3 Q. Were you a member of any political party or organisation? Are you

4 now a member of any party or organisation?

5 A. No. I was not a member of any party nor am I a member of any

6 party today.

7 Q. Were you a member of the 4th Detachment of the JNA?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. So you became a member of the 4th Detachment. You were given

10 weapons.

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Did you have any position in the detachment?

13 A. I was just a common soldier.

14 Q. We'll move on to events on the 16th and 17th of April, 1992.

15 Where were you and what did you do on the 16th and 17th -- on the 16th of

16 April, 1992?

17 A. On the 16th of April, 1992, I was working at a local pub or cafe.

18 The name of the cafe was Monika [as interpreted]. It was in the centre of

19 town. I worked until evening.

20 Q. When did you close down?

21 A. We shut at half past 9.00 or 10.00. That was unusually early.

22 Q. Why did you shut that early?

23 A. Our people usually stay outside in the cafes very late, 11.00,

24 midnight. But that evening there was no one about town because the cafe

25 is plumb in the centre of town. But there were no people walking around.

Page 17668

1 There were no clients, patrons, so there was no need for me to stay open.

2 Q. Thank you very much.

3 MR. PANTELIC: [Previous interpretation continues] ... to my

4 learned friend. I think that we heard that the name of the cafe was

5 Monca, like Italian town, Monca. It's on line 13, page 51. In the

6 transcript we have "Monika." So maybe it might be importance. So I don't

7 know if it's important for my learned friend --

8 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Pisarevic, was the name of the cafe Monca, as

9 Mr. Pantelic says? Yes. That will be corrected. You proceed --

10 MR. PANTELIC: [Interpretation]

11 Q. Can you please tell us the name of the cafe.

12 A. Monca.

13 Q. Thank you. So where did you go next?

14 A. I went home.

15 Q. That night, the 17th of April, did anything out of the ordinary

16 happen?

17 A. Nothing special. I came home as usual. I had dinner. I went to

18 bed at some point. During the night, about 3.00 hours in the morning we

19 were awakened by sounds of shooting, my mother and I, from the eastern

20 part of the town and there was a powerful explosion about 3.00 in the

21 morning.

22 Q. I have a suggestion from my colleague here. You're talking about

23 a part of the night of the 17th in the morning hours. That's when you

24 heard those things.

25 A. Yes.

Page 17669

1 Q. You said the eastern part of town. Can you please briefly

2 describe what do you mean do you mean by the eastern part of Samac?

3 A. That's towards the silo, that's the general direction of the

4 memorial centre, the SUP, Donja Mahala, and so on and so forth.

5 Q. When you heard shooting, when you heard the explosions, what

6 happened at your building?

7 A. Outside in the hall of the building we heard commotion, we heard

8 people talking, so I opened the door and at the entrance to the building I

9 noticed all my neighbours. I noticed quite many members of the 4th

10 Battalion [as interpreted] who were in the detachment with me, so we

11 exchanged comments as to what was going on and what might happen. We

12 didn't know what was going on.

13 Q. When you said that in the hall you noticed many members of the 4th

14 Battalion standing there -- 4th Detachment, rather, were those your

15 neighbours who lived in the same building, the same entrance and they were

16 members of the 4th Detachment?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Did they, too, leave their flats?

19 A. We were neighbours. We all left our flats and came out.

20 Q. What happened next? Did you go anywhere? What did you do?

21 A. No, we didn't go anywhere. We just stayed in our homes. We

22 agreed as neighbours not to allow any unknown persons into the building.

23 Q. Did you try to use the phone to find out what was happening?

24 A. Yes, we did, a number of times, but the phone lines were down.

25 Q. So the phone lines were down, and you couldn't find out what was

Page 17670

1 happening.

2 A. No, no, no, the phone lines were down. We couldn't find out what

3 was happening.

4 Q. So what happened the next morning with you?

5 A. About 8.00 in the morning I was surprised because the phone rang,

6 and it was a relative of mine calling and he said that some police had

7 taken the eastern part of the town and he didn't really have any reliable

8 information about what had happened, so I just stayed home.

9 Q. Did you report to the command of the 4th Detachment when the phone

10 started working again?

11 A. That's exactly what it was about. After I talked to my relative,

12 the phone rang, and on the other end of the line there was someone from

13 the command telling me to report with full combat kit to the command of

14 the 4th Detachment.

15 Q. Where was the command of the 4th Detachment?

16 A. The SIT building.

17 Q. Your neighbours who were also members of the 4th Detachment, did

18 they come with you then?

19 A. Yes, some of them. Some of them, depending on how they were

20 called up and when they reported.

21 Q. Among these neighbours of yours that you referred to, that you

22 said were members of the 4th Detachment from your building and from that

23 particular part of the building where your flat was, were there only

24 ethnic Serbs or were there Muslims, Croats, et cetera?

25 A. This was a multi-ethnic unit. There were some members of this

Page 17671

1 unit who were Muslims. And I know that personally because they were my

2 neighbours. They were Muslims and Croats. It was multi-ethnic. Truth to

3 tell, the majority were Serbs but there were quite a few Muslims and

4 Croats.

5 Q. My question pertained to the part of the building where you

6 lived. Could you remember the Muslims who were members of the 4th

7 Detachment who were your neighbours?

8 A. Mr. Atic. We called him Hamko. I don't know what his real name

9 was. There was a Sejhapovic [phoen], I think. Was his first name

10 Muhamed, or whatever, I can't remember right now.

11 Q. Thank you. You came to the command and what did you find at the

12 command of the 4th Detachment of the SIT building?

13 A. At the moment I came, there were about 20 soldiers there, or

14 rather -- well, about 20 members of the 4th Detachment. Some people were

15 in uniform, some people were in jackets. There were about 20 of them

16 there. And then the number went up as time went by. It was about 9.00 or

17 9.30, I think.

18 Q. So members of the 4th Detachment came and they were there in front

19 of the command?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And Commander Antic, did he take you then to have a combat task

22 carried out, namely to take the outskirts of the town of Samac, or rather,

23 the embankment?

24 A. Yes, he took us to the embankment.

25 Q. Did you stay at the embankment?

Page 17672

1 A. At that embankment we stayed there all night, until the morning.

2 I think it was about 5.30 or 6.00 in the morning when a new shift came.

3 Q. In the evening of the 17th, did you get some white ribbons so that

4 you could be distinguished?

5 A. Well, it was about dusk when they brought us white ribbons. I had

6 a uniform. I wore a uniform, and I put that white ribbon on my left

7 epaulette and people who did not have uniform and who were wearing jackets

8 put them on their left upper arm.

9 Q. You said a while ago that you stayed until 5.30 or 6.00. So that

10 is already the 18th, at 5.30 or 6.00 you left these positions. Were you

11 replaced by another shift?

12 A. Yes. And they told us that we could go home to get a bit of rest

13 and not to go anywhere from home, that we should await further activities

14 and further obligations.

15 Q. So were you called to the command of the 4th Detachment again that

16 day?

17 A. Yes, I was, around 9.00, 9.30, something like that.

18 Q. Did you get some new tasks there, some new orders?

19 A. We were given new tasks and new orders. We were told that we

20 should go to collect weapons in the 4th quarter.

21 Q. Were you given some orders and instructions related to the

22 collection of weapons in the 4th quarter?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Could you tell us what you were told.

25 A. Well, this is the way it was: The procedure was explained to us,

Page 17673

1 also how we should address citizens and when we walk into yards and houses

2 that we should knock or ring the bell, not to break into any homes, not to

3 ask anyone for anything in a violent manner, that we should act in a

4 neighbouring fashion, that is to say, no force, no compulsion, no orders,

5 nothing like that.

6 Q. When you said "in this neighbourly fashion," does that mean that

7 citizens were supposed to act in a voluntary fashion?

8 A. Precisely.

9 Q. How many of you were in this one group that was supposed to carry

10 out this task?

11 A. In my group, there were about ten of us, nine or ten.

12 Q. Were you armed?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. What kind of uniform did you wear?

15 A. I had an olive-grey uniform on, and it was a bit rainy and there

16 was even a bit of sleet, so I had some tarpaulin over the uniform. Other

17 people did not even have a uniform. They were wearing civilian clothes.

18 So we were not all in uniform.

19 Q. Were you escorted by an armoured vehicle?

20 A. Yes, we were escorted by an armoured combat vehicle.

21 Q. Could you please explain this, what an armoured combat vehicle is.

22 A. An armoured combat vehicle, an ACV - in B/C/S, BOV - is a vehicle

23 that has a turret with three barrels with three 20-millimetre guns, that

24 is, anti-aircraft weaponry.

25 Q. All right. So an ACV is a vehicle with rubber wheels and it has a

Page 17674

1 turret with three barrels.

2 A. With three barrels, three guns. That's what we say.

3 Q. All right. And you set out. Which street did you take?

4 A. Well, we started out from the SIT and we took the former street of

5 Kardelj. Now it is called the street of Car Dusan. And we went left and

6 right down the street in the direction of the post office.

7 Q. This armoured combat vehicle, this ACV, as you call it, did it

8 move behind you, in front of you, together with you?

9 A. It was behind us. It was behind us. And the distance was about

10 15, 20, or 30 metres. It depended how much it would stay behind.

11 Q. Can you remember the position of these guns?

12 A. The guns were raised in relation to us, because that is what had

13 been agreed upon because the guns were not to be supposed to -- they were

14 not supposed to be pointed in our direction, and that is why they were

15 raised further up.

16 Q. Something did not enter the transcript. When you said why the

17 guns were not raised, so could you repeat that. Why were the guns not

18 raised?

19 A. The ACV has three guns and the guns, the barrels, can be put down,

20 and this -- and it's about 2 and a half or 3 metres up and then they can

21 be down or they can be taken up at an angle of up to 90 degrees. So they

22 were not pointed at us at all, so that we would not be hurt in any way,

23 even accidentally.

24 THE INTERPRETER: Could counsel please pause. The interpreters

25 could not catch this because both speakers were speaking at the same

Page 17675

1 time.

2 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Pisarevic, do pause. Don't overlap the

3 witness.

4 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Excuse me, Mr. Pisarevic. Just on this question

5 of the guns. I wonder, Mr. Buzakovic, you say the guns were up on the

6 combat vehicle, and you've just mentioned they could be sort of halfway up

7 or at 90 degrees. Do you recall whether they were fully up at 90 degrees,

8 so they were just pointing up into the sky, not pointing at anyone, not

9 pointing at you, not pointing at any civilians on the street and so on?

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I beg your pardon. I have to

11 correct you. These are not rifles. These are barrels, guns, on a turret,

12 and they can be down, lower down, but they can go up, up to 90 degrees.

13 So they were raised. They were quite high up in relation to us. Not a

14 90-degree angle but in that direction. So they could not really fire at

15 us or at any buildings or anything.

16 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Just for the sake of the record, Mr. Buzakovic, I

17 didn't say "rifles." I did say "guns." Obviously a translation into

18 B/C/S problem there.

19 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. But the

20 interpretation we heard said "rifles," and that is why this came as an

21 answer.

22 Q. So this combat vehicle, did it stop every now and then while you

23 were collecting weapons?

24 A. The vehicle was not moving all the time. It would stop every now

25 and then. It would stop and wait, because usually my group, approximately

Page 17676

1 ten people, three of us would usually walk into the yard, knock at the

2 door. So usually it would be three of us in front of a house and then the

3 other three would be in front of another house, and then the other three

4 would be in front of a third house, and then we would collect weapons and

5 throw them into the combat vehicle and that is why it was that way.

6 Q. So let us now clarify one matter: So this was not a tank.

7 A. No.

8 Q. When this task was being carried out, did you make any exceptions

9 when you came to various houses, apartment buildings, et cetera, or did

10 you go to all doors of buildings and apartments?

11 A. When we set out from the command of the 4th Detachment, we were

12 told that we should go into every house, every yard, every apartment,

13 indiscriminately. Not to enter the premises but to knock at the door. So

14 we did not make any distinctions, regardless of whether it was a Serb,

15 Muslim, or Croat house.

16 Q. Were there any situations when citizens were already waiting for

17 you in their yards and handing over weapons to you and that you didn't

18 even have to enter the yards, let alone the houses?

19 A. Yes, there were such situations. There were also people who were

20 frightened. And then, on the other hand, there were people who even gave

21 us coffee and cigarettes. As a matter of fact, even a little brandy or

22 two. And there were situations when we gave people cigarettes as well,

23 because there were situations when people would not leave their houses, so

24 they couldn't even buy their own cigarettes. So generally speaking, the

25 cooperation was exceptionally good between us and the citizens.

Page 17677

1 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Pisarevic, I hope you are watching your time.

2 Yes. You have five minutes.

3 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation]

4 Q. And you went into the street of Pero Bosic at one point, didn't

5 you?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Do you know Esad Dagovic?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Please, could you tell us what happened on that day when you came

10 to the house of Esad Dagovic?

11 A. My group, since this was the second house in this street -- or

12 rather, in this yard there are two houses. We entered this yard. I,

13 Fadil Topcagic, and there was another soldier with us, Nenad. Nenad was

14 his first name. Nenad was his first name, at any rate. In the first

15 house in this yard we knocked at the door and nobody answered and we went

16 further into the yard, and then I walked up a few steps and I knocked at

17 the door and Esad Dagovic, nicknamed Ekac, came out. The usual

18 procedure: Hello, hello. Esad, do you have any weapons? And he said to

19 me that he had a pistol and that he had a proper permit for it. I said to

20 him that he should bring his pistol and I asked him, "Do you have any

21 military weapons, army weapons?" And the door was a bit ajar and I think

22 his mother was there behind the door, peeking through, his mother and his

23 brother, and he told me that I should follow him. I followed him. He

24 walked into the basement. And in the corner of the basement, underneath

25 the coal that was there - so this was at the very end of the basement - he

Page 17678

1 dug through the coal a bit and -- now, in some cloth there was an

2 automatic rifle with one clip on it, one clip of ammunition on it, and

3 there were also two hand grenades there wrapped in that cloth.

4 Q. Was this a Kalashnikov rifle?

5 A. Yes, it was.

6 Q. And when you got out of the basement, what happened then?

7 A. Even in the basement he said to me, "Goran --" perhaps I can even

8 quote him.

9 Q. Do.

10 A. "I swear by my mother that I did not shoot from these weapons." I

11 personally was not interested in this, but he went out and he cocked the

12 rifle and opened it and he -- it was obvious that the weapons had not been

13 fired from, either the rifle or the pistol. And I asked him, because an

14 automatic rifle is usually issued in -- as part of combat equipment. I

15 asked him, "Ekac, do you have this combat set with more clips of

16 ammunition?" "No," he said. "That's the only thing I had. No, nothing."

17 So that was it. "Bye, bye." And then we went further. And I put his

18 weapons into the ACV that was following us. But we put all these weapons

19 in the ACV and then we would proceed further.

20 Q. Please, what about Mr. Simo Zaric and Mr. Miroslav Tadic? At that

21 moment, were they ever together with you? Were they ever in this group of

22 soldiers that was collecting weapons?

23 A. No, not a single moment did I -- I didn't notice them.

24 Q. Did you see them that day at all?

25 A. No, I did not see them that day at all.

Page 17679

1 Q. When did you complete this action?

2 A. Sometime earlier in the evening. I don't know. About 5.00.

3 Q. What did you do after that?

4 A. Nothing. Regular activities. Well, then they told us that we

5 could go home and that we should be ready to go to the outskirts of town

6 to take over from these people who were at the embankment.

7 Q. So you spent the entire day as a soldier of the Army of Republika

8 Srpska [as interpreted]?

9 A. Yes, the entire day as a soldier of the Army of Republika Srpska.

10 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] No further answers [as

11 interpreted].

12 MR. LAZAREVIC: It doesn't make much sense here on page 63. "So

13 you spent the entire day as a soldier of the Army of Republika Srpska."

14 First of all, it was not the day. It was a war that Mr. Pisarevic was

15 referring to, because at that time the Army of Republika Srpska didn't

16 even exist. It was the JNA.

17 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreters note that the pace was extreme.

18 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, that was the problem. It was too fast.

19 Can you ask the last question again, slowly.

20 MR. PISAREVIC: [Microphone not activated]

21 THE INTERPRETER: The microphone is off.

22 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation]

23 Q. Throughout the war in Bosnia-Herzegovina, from 1992 until the end

24 of the war, 1995, you were a member of the Army of Republika Srpska.

25 A. Yes.

Page 17680

1 Q. Thank you.

2 JUDGE MUMBA: Any other counsel?

3 Cross-examination?

4 MR. RE: Yes, thank you, Your Honour.

5 Cross-examined by Mr. Re:

6 Q. These orders you received on the morning when you went searching

7 for weapons, who gave you those orders?

8 A. We received orders from the commander of the 4th Detachment,

9 Radovan Antic, and later on from the commander of my unit, my company,

10 Rajko Dragic.

11 Q. Are you saying that Antic personally gave the assembled soldiers

12 such as yourself the orders as to what to do in weapons collection? Is

13 that what you're saying?

14 A. Yes. Yes.

15 Q. And did Antic say that you, that is, the soldiers in the 4th

16 Detachment, were not to enter people's houses? Was that one of the orders

17 he gave you?

18 A. Yes. Yes, it was.

19 Q. And that weapons were to be collected in such a way that citizens

20 would bring their weapons outside to a collection point in their own

21 garden and then members of the detachment were to collect them? Is that

22 what Antic said?

23 A. No.

24 Q. Did -- is it true that Antic sternly warned all you collected

25 soldiers against entering people's houses in an arbitrary manner? Is it

Page 17681

1 true that he ordered -- that he said that to you?

2 A. Yes, yes, it's true.

3 Q. Is it true that Antic said to you that nothing was to be seized

4 but weapons of a military origin?

5 A. We were looking for weapons of military origin. However, there

6 were people who turned over --

7 Q. That's not what I asked. I asked you what Antic said. Please

8 listen to the question. Is it true that Antic said to you when giving you

9 those orders that nothing was to be seized but weapons collected of a

10 military origin? Is that what he said to you?

11 A. He said that we should take all the weapons that people would turn

12 over, but we were originally looking for weapons of military origin.

13 Q. So he didn't say that you were only to take weapons of military

14 origin; is that what you're saying?

15 A. It is my submission that he told us that he -- that we should take

16 weapons of military origin and any other weapons being turned over.

17 People were turning over weapons. They were too scared to keep those

18 weapons at home. Whether it was military weapons or some other weapons.

19 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Lukic.

20 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] What the witness said at the end, the

21 witness was talking about illegal weapons, and the Prosecutor is talking

22 about military weapons. So illegal weapons is a somewhat broader

23 concept. So if the Prosecutor could please refer to illegal weapons or

24 illegally owned weapons, because those are not necessarily weapons of

25 military origin. So we're talking about weapons that people should not be

Page 17682

1 allowed to keep at home without proper permit, and that's exactly what the

2 witness said. So in order to keep the Prosecutor from further confusing

3 the witness, maybe we should be using the term "illegal weapons," or

4 rather, "illegally owned weapons."

5 MR. RE: No. I'm quoting evidence of this witness. I'm quoting

6 it from the transcript. For my friend's benefit, page T17O30 [as said].

7 Q. I'll take you back to my question, sir. I'm asking you about what

8 Antic said in relation to the collection of weapons. Is it true -- I

9 withdraw that. Did he say to you that only weapons of military origin

10 were to be collected?

11 A. He told us to collect weapons of military origin and whatever

12 weapons the citizens were willing to hand over on a voluntary basis.

13 Q. Now, Mr. Zaric, who's called you to give evidence here, gave a

14 statement to the Prosecution in 1998 in which he said the orders were not

15 to go into people's houses. That's P141 ter at pages 18 to 19, for my

16 friend's benefit.

17 Do you agree with that statement, that the orders were not to go

18 into people's houses?

19 A. I know nothing about Mr. Zaric's statement. I'm not sure who he

20 gave this statement to. What I do know, however, is that we did not enter

21 houses.

22 Q. I just told you. It was to the Prosecution. I wasn't asking you

23 about that. I was asking you about what he said. In his statement to the

24 Prosecution, he said "we were not to enter houses," period, "not to enter

25 houses."

Page 17683

1 A. Except if someone invited us. And I was invited into the basement

2 of that specific house.

3 Q. When I asked you a moment ago, sir, about what Antic said, you

4 said nothing about except if people invite you into the house, did you?

5 A. Well, I knew those people there personally. We were ordered not

6 to use force to get into houses, no breaking and entering, no banging on

7 the door, no threatening people in order to get into their homes.

8 Q. So you're now saying, are you, that the orders Antic gave were

9 that you could enter houses if people allowed you to come in and search

10 them? Is that what you're saying now, sir?

11 A. We understood Mr. Antic's order, but Mr. Antic did not know that

12 I knew certain people in town very well and that they indeed knew me

13 well. It was up to me. So I came into another house. It was a neighbour

14 of mine. And she offered me coffee.

15 Q. Sir, did Antic say that you could interpret these orders not to

16 enter houses as if people invited us in to the house, we could search

17 if we wanted to? Did he tell you you could interpret his orders in any

18 way that you chose?

19 A. No. Antic ordered us not to enter any houses, not to enter by

20 force, no breaking in, no use of force. Everything had to be done on a

21 voluntary basis.

22 Q. The situation was, sir, on this particular day there were nine or

23 ten armed soldiers, some in uniform, some not, carrying Kalashnikovs,

24 accompanied by a -- an ACV or BOV with three barrels pointing in different

25 directions, knocking on people's doors looking for weapons. That's your

Page 17684

1 evidence, isn't it, sir?

2 A. Well, mind you, my group contained about ten soldiers, so my

3 group, the ten of us, were there. And there were other groups there. But

4 I'm only talking about my group. We were about ten people in the group,

5 and we went from house to house indiscriminately. We knocked on people's

6 doors. Whoever was at home would open. Many people were simply not

7 home. That's what the situation was like. And it had been for quite some

8 time. There was something in the air, that something just wasn't quite

9 right, and many people from the country lived in the town and they would

10 just simply leave town for the weekend, go away. We were walking and the

11 barrels were raised up in the air for our safety.

12 Q. And you don't think this might be intimidating to people whose

13 doors you were knocking on, seeing nine or ten armed soldiers with the

14 Kalashnikovs outside in the street accompanied by a -- an APC -- sorry,

15 ACV BOV with three barrels? That wouldn't be intimidating to the citizens

16 of Bosanski Samac whose doors you're knocking on, sir?

17 A. No, not all ten of us were knocking. We usually went in groups of

18 three. Intimidating? Well, perhaps.

19 Q. Sir, I didn't say that. I said nine or ten soldiers outside. I

20 didn't say nine or ten were knocking on the door. Please concentrate on

21 what I said. Nine or ten soldiers in the vicinity, outside in the street,

22 while you or others were knocking on the door accompanied by an armoured

23 vehicle with three barrels. Are you saying people didn't find that

24 intimidating, sir?

25 A. I'm not saying that.

Page 17685

1 Q. Of course they were intimidated, weren't they?

2 A. I was not supposed to intimidate anyone. Now, how people felt at

3 the moment, I really can't say. And there were always three of us in a

4 yard at any given point in time because the other group of three would

5 already have moved ahead to a different house, which was 50 metres further

6 down the street. And the ACV was sometimes as much as 30, 40, or 50

7 metres behind us.

8 Q. Sir, Miroslav Tadic and Simo Zaric, who you both know seated over

9 there, were given the task of supervising the collection of weapons

10 immediately after the Serb takeover, weren't they?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And the job of supervising entailed them going from groups of

13 soldiers to groups of soldiers to ensure they were going about their task

14 in the designated and ordered way, didn't it, sir?

15 A. Is this a -- I can't see a question. I think that's rather the

16 suggestion of an answer.

17 Q. Oh, yes, sir, it is. That's right. They were given the job of

18 supervising. There were different groups going round the town, knocking

19 on doors looking for weapons. Supervision meant that they went to the

20 different groups to make sure they were doing their job, didn't it, sir?

21 A. I didn't see them on that particular day at all. Maybe they were

22 supposed to be doing that, but I didn't see them on that day or the

23 previous day, for that matter.

24 Q. Was that because you were too busy inside people's houses

25 searching for weapons, you didn't notice them going from group to group

Page 17686

1 supervising your activities, sir?

2 MR. LAZAREVIC: Calling for speculation. I really don't believe

3 what might be the reason why he didn't say them. There is also an

4 explanation that maybe they weren't there also.

5 MR. RE: I asked him if the reason was because he was inside

6 searching for weapons. It's fairly specific.

7 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. The witness can answer.

8 MR. RE:

9 Q. Was the reason you didn't see them -- see them supervising you

10 carrying out your task because you were inside houses searching for

11 weapons or having cups of coffee or drinking brandy or providing

12 cigarettes to the citizens of Bosanski Samac?

13 A. Well, let me tell you. When we came to people's homes, to the

14 yards, we would look around every time, checking for traps because people

15 were armed and we were trying to keep our own men from getting killed.

16 Q. No, sir. I'm asking you about the reason why you may not have

17 seen them if they were doing their job properly. Was it possibly because

18 you were indoors either searching for weapons or coffee, brandy, or

19 cigarette -- cigarette provision to the citizens of Bosanski Samac?

20 A. I really don't know how they went about their own work. I only

21 know that on that particular day I myself did not see anywhere, not in the

22 yards, not behind us, I didn't see them. Not that I didn't see them

23 because I was having coffee in someone else's house or was drinking

24 alcohol and giving people cigarettes. I didn't see them for the simple

25 fact that they just weren't there. So that's my answer to you.

Page 17687

1 Q. All right, sir. But given that Antic's orders were not to enter

2 people's houses and only to seize weapons of a military origin, if Tadic

3 or Zaric acting under those orders had seen you in someone's house, their

4 job as the supervising officers would have been to pull you out of the

5 houses, wouldn't it, if they were doing their job properly? Wouldn't it,

6 sir?

7 JUDGE MUMBA: No, I don't think the witness can answer that

8 question.

9 MR. RE: He's answered that they were supervising him. The orders

10 were not to enter people's houses. My question is based upon that, if

11 they, as a the supervising officers of the search had been doing their job

12 properly, had people --

13 JUDGE MUMBA: No.

14 MR. RE: -- people's houses.

15 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.

16 MR. RE: They should have pulled them out and Zaric had seen it or

17 Tadic had seen it or known about it?

18 JUDGE MUMBA: You can't say what they could have done.

19 MR. RE: What they should have done based on Antic's [Realtime

20 transcript read in error "Tadic's"] orders, not what they could have done.

21 The orders are not to enter houses. The supervising officers should have

22 pulled the soldiers out if they were.

23 JUDGE MUMBA: No, I don't think the witness can answer that.

24 MR. RE: May it please the Court.

25 Q. Mr. Buzakovic, by that stage, of course, there were already tanks

Page 17688

1 in Bosanski Samac, weren't there? By the time you were doing your

2 door-to-door searches for weapons, there were already several tanks in

3 Bosanski Samac?

4 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Lukic.

5 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Here we have exactly what my learned

6 friend and colleague from the Prosecution said. I think my colleague has

7 misspoken on page 71, line 9. I think he was supposed to say on Tadic's

8 orders. I think he meant on Antic's orders, actually, not on Tadic's

9 orders. So I would like to see a correction there, because we never heard

10 that Tadic had actually given any orders, unless the Prosecutor actually

11 meant what he said. But I think the meaning was Antic's orders, page 71,

12 line 9.

13 MR. RE: Certainly. If I said "Tadic," it was completely

14 inadvertent. I thought I said "Antic," but it says "Tadic." There. That

15 can be certainly clarified.

16 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. That will be corrected.

17 MR. RE:

18 Q. Sir, my question to you was about tanks. By the time you were

19 searching -- doing your door-to-door searches, there were already several

20 tanks in Bosanski Samac, weren't there?

21 A. No.

22 Q. The --

23 A. Not in our vicinity. The whole district, no, there were no tanks.

24 Q. When did the tanks arrive, sir? These two tanks, when did they

25 come, in relation to the takeover?

Page 17689

1 A. You're asking me about tanks that I never saw. I don't know that

2 there were two tanks there. There were certainly no tanks near where we

3 were.

4 Q. You didn't see any tanks in Bosanski Samac in the days immediately

5 after the takeover on the 17th of April, 1992; is that what you're saying?

6 A. Yes, yes. That's precisely what I'm saying. After the takeover,

7 I did not see any tanks.

8 Q. Were you in charge of the group that was going -- the nine or ten

9 soldiers doing the door-to-door searches for weapons, or was someone else

10 in charge?

11 A. I was not in charge of the group.

12 Q. Who was?

13 A. Ljubo Simic was in charge of my group.

14 Q. Did Ljubo Simic have any -- were you given any indication of

15 people you should look for, of houses you should go to looking for

16 weapons, sir?

17 A. No, we weren't told to look for any specific people, and we

18 searched houses indiscriminately, one by one. No distinctions made. And

19 we weren't looking for any of the people.

20 Q. And when you just said you searched houses indiscriminately, what

21 you meant is you went into houses searching, wasn't it, sir?

22 A. I didn't actually say that we searched houses. We'd go as far as

23 the door and ask about weapons. When I say "ask," I don't mean that I

24 actually searched any houses. We would approach the person who the house

25 belonged to, say, "Hello, hello. Do you happen to have any weapons in the

Page 17690

1 house; yes or no?" We did not search houses.

2 Q. Sir, a moment ago -- and I'm just reading from your answer, no,

3 we weren't told to look for any specific people and we "searched

4 houses indiscriminately one by one." That's what I've got in front of me

5 here. What did you mean -- I'm sorry, when you said "we searched houses

6 indiscriminately," you meant you went into houses looking for weapons,

7 didn't you, sir? That's what you just said.

8 JUDGE MUMBA: The witness has already explained, Mr. Re. Please

9 move on.

10 MR. RE: Your Honour, his answer was "asked," not searched. He

11 used the word "searched." I asked him what he meant by searched.

12 JUDGE MUMBA: He answered. If you look at the answer in 73, 12,

13 he explained what he meant.

14 MR. RE: Well, there's now two answers on the transcript. One is

15 we searched houses, and the other one is we didn't search houses.

16 JUDGE MUMBA: No, he did explain. Mr. Re, move on.

17 MR. RE: May it please the Court.

18 Q. Look, when you -- when you went with the 4th Detachment searching,

19 were any of the members of the specials, the people who had come into the

20 district, were they on your patrol searching house to house?

21 A. No. Only members of the 4th Detachment were there.

22 Q. Now, this search of Mr. Dagovic's house, when you went to his

23 cellar, did you videotape this search, sir?

24 A. I entered because I was invited by him. I didn't do the searching

25 myself. He did the searching.

Page 17691

1 Q. My question was: Did you videotape it? Did you --

2 A. No, I didn't tape it.

3 Q. Did anyone videotape it, sir; yes or no? Answer that one.

4 A. No. No.

5 Q. When you took weapons from his house, did you give him a receipt

6 for them?

7 A. No.

8 Q. Did you take a photograph of the weapons that you say you took

9 from his house or did anyone to your knowledge take a photograph of these

10 weapons you say were seized from his house with his consent?

11 A. No.

12 Q. Did you or anyone else write a report on the seizure of weapons

13 from his house?

14 A. No.

15 Q. The pistol of course wasn't a weapon of military origin, was it,

16 sir?

17 A. The pistol --

18 Q. The pistol, sir. Was it a Kalashnikov or an -- an RPG or a

19 rifle? It was a pistol for which he had a permit, wasn't it, sir?

20 A. A pistol is also part of military weaponry, 7.62 millimetres.

21 That's a military weapon. And I didn't see a permit there.

22 Q. Did you ask him for the permit, sir?

23 A. No, no, I didn't ask to see it. He told me himself that he had a

24 pistol, which he brought himself and turned it over.

25 Q. He had a pistol. He told you he had a permit for it. You didn't

Page 17692

1 ask for the permit. You didn't see the permit. But you just took it.

2 Correct?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. And he never got it back, as far as you know?

5 A. No.

6 Q. It was stolen from him, wasn't it?

7 A. I don't know what happened later, whether it was returned to him

8 or not. I don't know.

9 Q. So you stole the weapon from him, didn't you?

10 A. No.

11 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Re, that's not fair to this witness. He has

12 explained -- and it's not fair to be suggesting that he stole from him.

13 MR. RE:

14 Q. After the searches were completed, sir, the JNA or the 4th

15 Detachment, you said that there was -- there were various duties which it

16 performed. Did the 4th Detachment or a group of which you were a part,

17 take part in guarding any of the vital facilities in the town?

18 A. Before the war or -- I don't think I understood your question.

19 Can you please rephrase.

20 Q. After the takeover by --

21 JUDGE MUMBA: And Mr. Re, you should be winding up.

22 MR. RE: I am, Your Honour.

23 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.

24 MR. RE:

25 Q. After the takeover, sir, did the 4th Detachment guard facilities

Page 17693

1 in the town, such as the SUP, the MUP, the TO, the post office, the

2 schools, the river banks, the silos, the waterworks, the municipal

3 buildings, the radio station?

4 A. No, no, no. That's not how it was. We were along the perimeter

5 of the town. We were securing the perimeter. But we were not inside the

6 town, actually. And we did not provide security for any of the facilities

7 inside the town; only the perimeter, the outskirts.

8 Q. Sir, I finally want to suggest to you that you just barged into

9 Esad Dagovic's house, went to his cellar.

10 A. That's what you say. That's your submission. I never said this.

11 I did not barge into anyone's house or into anyone's basement. He

12 actually invited me.

13 Q. And that armed soldiers, of which you were a group, pointed their

14 weapons at him saying, "Surrender your weapons. Surrender your weapons."

15 A. No way. Not a chance. That's not how it was. That's what you

16 say.

17 MR. RE: I have no further questions, Your Honour.

18 JUDGE MUMBA: Any re-examination?

19 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] Just a few questions.

20 Re-examined by Mr. Pisarevic:

21 Q. [Interpretation] You and your group, did you search any house

22 while you were carrying out your task in the 4th quarter?

23 A. No, we didn't.

24 Q. You said that you knew that people knew that people were armed.

25 Were you afraid as you were going down the street that somebody would

Page 17694

1 shoot at you?

2 A. Yes, I was afraid.

3 Q. Did this require some kind of additional caution in view of the

4 situation?

5 A. Absolutely. We had no idea who could start shooting at us at any

6 given point in time. We were there like moving targets.

7 Q. Do you know or do you think that the citizens of Samac were afraid

8 when a group of 100 Muslims in the centre of town walked around?

9 MR. RE: I object.

10 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation]

11 Q. -- and demonstrated with weapons?

12 MR. RE: I object.

13 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Pisarevic, you can't ask that question.

14 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] I withdraw. I withdraw this

15 question.

16 Q. Do you agree with me that this voluntary collection was actually

17 amnesty for citizens --

18 MR. RE: I object.

19 JUDGE MUMBA: No, Mr. Pisarevic.

20 MR. RE: I mean, Mr. Pisarevic has a habit of asking leading

21 questions in re-examination too.

22 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] You raised the issue whether some

23 kind of certificates were given in relation to the weapons that were taken

24 away. I'm just trying to say that at that time, in the time of war, it

25 was not advisable and that would not be the effect of voluntary surrender

Page 17695

1 of weapons if people had to sign documents and whatever. That's what I

2 wanted to say.

3 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Pisarevic, you are not supposed to give

4 evidence. The witness could have explained that, if there were any

5 reasons why they didn't give certificates, but he didn't.

6 JUDGE WILLIAMS: I think, actually, it was a receipt that was

7 being asked about, not a certificate. That has a slightly different

8 connotation, in any case.

9 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] That was precisely my objective,

10 when I tried to put this question about amnesty. You see, in our part of

11 the world "amnesty" has a meaning of its own. Very often a state would

12 proclaim amnesty so that people could legalise their weapons.

13 Q. However, in order to prevent anyone from knowing who were the

14 people who had illegal weapons, was that the reason why they were not

15 given certificates, these people whose weapons were collected?

16 A. Yes.

17 MR. RE: Your Honour, I object. Every question that Mr. Pisarevic

18 has asked is either cross-examination or leading. He just can't do it.

19 He's been here long enough to know that's not the way the Rules of

20 Evidence work in this Tribunal. He can ask anything, who, what, where,

21 how, when that arises out of cross-examination, but not in this way.

22 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Pisarevic, you're suggesting answers to the

23 witness.

24 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] I have no further questions.

25 Thank you.

Page 17696

1 [Trial Chamber confers]

2 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you, Mr. Buzakovic, for giving evidence. You

3 are now finished. You may leave the courtroom.

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

5 [The witness withdrew]

6 JUDGE MUMBA: First of all, Mr. Re did say that he wanted to

7 make -- the Trial Chamber was informed that you wanted to make further

8 submissions on the issue of the statement regarding, I think, Kemal

9 Bobic.

10 MR. RE: Yes, I did. Is it the appropriate time now, Your

11 Honours?

12 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. You can start.

13 MR. RE: I thank you.

14 JUDGE MUMBA: We haven't got another witness, have we? Yes. So

15 we can go ahead.

16 Or if you're -- are you collecting your papers? Then we can have

17 Mr. Pantelic in the meantime?

18 MR. PANTELIC: Yes. Your Honours, that's just -- my suggestion

19 was the same, to leave additional time for my learned friend to collect

20 papers.

21 Your Honour, very briefly, it is the issue with regard to the

22 exhibit D163/1 ID. In fact, that was the -- one of the 92 bis statements

23 of our witnesses. Namely, it is Mr. Simic, Cedomir. And I would kindly

24 ask for some guidance and some alliance from this Honourable Trial

25 Chamber. According to your ruling, it was made on 28 February this year,

Page 17697

1 you said that -- actually the Trial Chamber ruled that the statement in

2 Exhibit D163/1 ID will be on viva voce restricted to matters that is in

3 paragraph 20, and then you wrote about the time limits, et cetera.

4 After carefully reviewing this statement, the Defence is of the

5 opinion that frankly all the statements is dealing with on some cumulative

6 or repetitive way, in fact, about the work of executive board, about the

7 issues that we already covered on many occasions with many witnesses in

8 our case. I mean, I'm speaking on behalf of Defence of Mr. Blagoje

9 Simic. So in order to speed up proceedings, the Defence of Blagoje Simic

10 will not call this witness here. So there are several possibilities.

11 Maybe we could strike paragraph 20 in its totality or we could strike all

12 these statements as exhibits. So it's up to the Trial Chamber, because --

13 JUDGE MUMBA: No, it's up to you. If you're saying you wish to

14 withdraw that statement --

15 MR. PANTELIC: Yes.

16 JUDGE MUMBA: -- and you don't wish to call him, it's up to you to

17 say so. It's your witness.

18 MR. PANTELIC: Well, in that case, that would be the position of

19 the Defence of Blagoje Simic, because there are many repetitive issues

20 here and we shall -- we shall withdraw this statement from the exhibits,

21 because as I said, he repeated speaking about the same issues that the

22 other witnesses are saying.

23 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. The Trial Chamber will consider that and give

24 its ruling in due course.

25 MR. PANTELIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

Page 17698

1 [Trial Chamber confers]

2 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Re.

3 MR. RE: Before Your Honours rule on that, would the Prosecution

4 be given a chance to have a look at the statement, in light of

5 Mr. Pantelic's submission just then, and give a response if we wish by,

6 say, Monday or Monday morning? We just hadn't had a chance to look at it

7 or consider the implications of Mr. Pantelic's suggestion. That's all.

8 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.

9 MR. RE: Thank you, Your Honour.

10 JUDGE MUMBA: You'll be able to give your response orally on

11 Monday.

12 MR. RE: Thank you, Your Honour.

13 It's 12.30, Your Honour. I was just wondering if the Trial

14 Chamber wishes to sit through for this particular matter, given that there

15 are no more witnesses, or whether my friends have matters they wish to

16 raise which will take longer. I'm entirely in the Trial Chamber's hands.

17 JUDGE MUMBA: We will take our break and resume our proceedings at

18 12.50.

19 --- Recess taken at 12.30 p.m.

20 --- On resuming at 12.50 p.m.

21 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Re.

22 MR. RE: My application is the following: Yesterday I sought to

23 move into evidence a portion of the statement of Mr. Kemal Bobic dated the

24 3rd of April, 1998. It's not in evidence at the moment, but for the

25 purposes of the -- my application, can I hand a copy of the relevant

Page 17699

1 portion to Your Honours for the purposes of ruling on it?

2 JUDGE MUMBA: First describe it. What is it discussing and --

3 MR. RE: I can read it to Your Honour. It's not --

4 JUDGE MUMBA: And who recorded it and the circumstances.

5 MR. RE: It's a witness statement taken by the Office of the

6 Prosecutor, interviewers Bernard O'Donnell and Paul Basham, on the 3rd of

7 April, 1998, signed with a declaration. And it's a sentence -- it's a

8 sentence I -- a line I read to the witness, Mr. Sejdic, yesterday, when

9 Your Honours permitted me to reopen for that one question, which would

10 only -- only as to credibility. And the portion is simply this:

11 "On the 17th of April, 1992 I was informed by police from Bosanski

12 Samac police station that I should not leave the area of my house and that

13 I should report to the police station twice a day, either by phone or in

14 person. I asked a policeman named Naser Sejdic, who had ordered this --

15 sorry, who had ordered this not who had ordered it, wrong emphasis -- and

16 I was told that it was Simo Zaric. Simo Zaric was a security officer in

17 the 4th Detachment of the JNA."

18 That's the portion of the statement which I would seek to tender

19 into evidence only on the issue of Mr. Sejdic's credibility. Now, the

20 reason why I do this, and I know Your Honours will be saying what about

21 92 bis and a statement complying with it --

22 JUDGE MUMBA: No, no, no. You finish your submission.

23 MR. RE: The reason for this application now is that - and I

24 raised this during my objection to the Defence leading evidence relating

25 to the arrest of Mr. Bobic on the -- I think it was the 23rd of May,

Page 17700

1 1992 - because the Defence had not, pursuant to Rule 90(H)(ii) put a

2 contrary case to either Ediba Bobic or Kemal Bobic when the two gave

3 evidence as to Mr. Bobic's arrest. At no time during the

4 cross-examination did the Defence suggest to either of those witnesses

5 that they were, A, mistaken or, B, untruthful about Mr. Sejdic actually

6 arresting Mr. Bobic, coming to the house and arresting him, or C, that it

7 was a third person who Mr. Sejdic gave evidence of yesterday. I think the

8 name was Cedo [phoen] or something like that, who actually was on the

9 patrol who arrested him.

10 The statement of Mr. Bobic and Mrs. Bobic was served on the

11 Defence many years ago and the Defence had the statement of Mr. Bobic and

12 clearly --

13 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Kemal.

14 MR. RE: Mr. Kemal Bobic, which was shown by Mr. Pisarevic in

15 re-examination -- sorry, in cross-examination at page -- transcript

16 T11502, reading a passage of the statement to the witness. That's

17 Mr. Bobic. The passage which he read was -- was a different passage of

18 the statement, but he -- sorry, it was T11501 to 502. But before that, he

19 actually clarified with the witness, Mr. Kemal Bobic, who Naser Sejdic

20 was saying, "A few questions. This Naser, as a matter of fact, is

21 policeman Naser Sejdic, called Cakar, C-a-k-a-r; is that right?"

22 "Yes."

23 Question: "And in that incident -- in an incident you mentioned

24 happened on the 23rd of May, isn't it?"

25 "Yes."

Page 17701

1 He then -- Mr. Pisarevic then read a passage of the statement.

2 The point of which was in the statement, the passage relating to the

3 arrest, the witness had not said I was -- "I'm arresting you on Simo

4 Zaric's orders." The explanation the witness then gave was, "Well, the

5 Prosecutor didn't ask me all those questions I asked" or -- his

6 explanation was, "Did I read correctly what's written here?" That's

7 T11052. "That is correct, Mr. Bobic? Is that your statement?"

8 "It is."

9 Question: "But Mr. Bobic, you still stand by the statement which

10 you gave on the 3rd of April, 1998 to the investigators of the OTP, of The

11 Hague Tribunal?"

12 Answer: "You mean this statement?" He's meaning the statement --

13 the 4th of April.

14 Question: "Yes."

15 Answer: "I do stand by it. Why, this is all correct."

16 Question: "It is all correct."

17 Answer: "Yes, it is. If you want me to help somebody with

18 something, that's fine with me."

19 And then it goes on. He asks -- and then it -- and that is

20 basically the extent of any cross-examination, which suggests anything

21 other than what we heard from Mr. Sejdic yesterday.

22 Now, on re-examination, the Prosecution didn't take Mr. Bobic to

23 the earlier portion where he mentioned Mr. Zaric's name, and there's a

24 perfectly obvious explanation for that just from reading the transcript,

25 and that is there would appear to have been no reason to do so because the

Page 17702

1 arrest and the circumstances never -- that is, that Mr. Sejdic actually

2 arrested Mr. Bobic, as opposed to whether he said Mr. Zaric ordered you do

3 so, which is simply never put into question. And the Prosecution, until

4 two days ago, had no idea that there was any challenge to the fact that

5 Mr. Sejdic had arrested Mr. Bobic on Mr. Bobic's and Mrs. Bobic's

6 then unchallenged testimony. So there was simply no reason for the

7 Prosecution to re-examine that portion of the statement in, as they would

8 have been entitled to, back in July 2002 when the evidence was given.

9 The Prosecution is hampered or hamstrung on the issue of

10 credibility with Mr. Sejdic because we were not able to put that -- or ask

11 Mr. Bobic about that statement. However, Mr. Pisarevic asked him whether

12 the statement, that is, the 4th of April, 1998, was correct, and he said

13 it was in its entirety, meaning he has given -- he has sworn on oath

14 correctness of the statement the portion of which I am moving to tender

15 into evidence. Now, the basis of tender is only as to the credibility of

16 Mr. Sejdic. It's not as to whether Mr. Zaric actually spoke those words,

17 because that is hearsay and the Prosecution would not be at this stage

18 wanting to use those words against him as secondhand hearsay. It goes

19 only as to Mr. Sejdic saying to the witness, Mr. Bobic, "Zaric told me to

20 do something." Now, whether Zaric did or not is a different matter. The

21 question is whether he said that Zaric had done so at some point, and it's

22 a very narrow issue of -- of admission into evidence. It's not related to

23 the truth of whether Mr. Zaric actually said that to Mr. Sejdic.

24 So those are my submissions. The only other alternative the

25 Prosecution would have that I could see would be to obtain a 92 bis

Page 17703

1 statement from Mr. Bobic to tender in rebuttal as to that particular

2 portion. But in my submission, as he's already testified, sworn on earth

3 to its veracity, that should not be necessary. Those are my submissions.

4 JUDGE MUMBA: Why -- yes. Mr. --

5 MR. LAZAREVIC: Your Honours, I will give a very brief submission

6 to that, to the submission of my learned colleague.

7 Mr. Bobic was a witness before this Tribunal, a viva voce witness

8 who testified for a number of days here. We were all present here. We

9 heard what he was talking about and all the others and the situation that

10 occurred. The Prosecution was here as well. They leaded their witness

11 through the examination-in-chief. The Defence cross-examined this

12 witness. And such a problem never raised.

13 The truth is that it was the first time here that Mr. Bobic

14 mentioned that Mr. -- that he heard that Mr. Zaric ordered to Mr. Sejdic,

15 who was also a witness here, to arrest allegedly Mr. Bobic. That was

16 actually the first time that we heard this information, this piece of

17 information. Of course we cannot know what each and every witness would

18 say before this Tribunal when he comes to testify here. Some things

19 appear suddenly during proofing with witnesses. And in such a case, the

20 Defence and the Prosecution as well need to check the truthness of such an

21 information. We heard it from the witness. Then we addressed to our

22 investigators in the field. They tried to reach Mr. Sejdic and

23 everything. We simply didn't have the opportunity to challenge

24 Mr. Sejdic -- sorry, Mr. Bobic's testimony here at that moment. But

25 anyway, it was mentioned at the point.

Page 17704

1 After that -- after that the Prosecution had of course the right

2 to ask everything they wanted to Mr. Bobic when he was here. They had

3 also the opportunity to tender his statement given to the OTP at that

4 moment if they thought it would be a smart move for them, if they thought

5 that this could support their case. They didn't do that.

6 In our pre-Defence brief and in particular in our filing pursuant

7 to Rule 71, under paragraph 15 there is a summary of Mr. Sejdic Naser and

8 it was filed months ago.

9 JUDGE MUMBA: This is -- this was the one filed on 14th November,

10 2002?

11 MR. LAZAREVIC: Precisely, Your Honour. And it says here he will

12 testify on isolated incident which Mr. Zaric allegedly ordered the witness

13 to arrest witness Bobic, Kemal.

14 By using word "allegedly" it is obvious that we challenge that --

15 that piece of information. And we frankly express our concerns that this

16 is a move from the Prosecution to tender into evidence some documents or

17 evidence on a back door, since Mr. Bobic cannot now confirm anything in

18 respect to that information. Mr. Bobic, while he was here - he was here

19 for a couple of days here - and the Prosecution had the opportunity to ask

20 him about this -- about all these facts, and they didn't do that. And now

21 they want to tender it through another witness in -- I believe that this

22 brings us into a very dangerous situation, that we could now make extracts

23 of hundreds of statements, and whenever there is something that is

24 different from the statement of one witness to another, to put this into

25 evidence. And I believe that this is not the intention of this Trial

Page 17705

1 Chamber.

2 MR. RE: Your Honours, Mr. Lazarevic --

3 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Re, why wasn't the statement put to the witness

4 when he was giving evidence?

5 MR. RE: There's a misunderstanding here. I can answer that quite

6 simply.

7 JUDGE MUMBA: No. I mean Mr. Sejdic Naser.

8 MR. RE: I did put it to him. I put it to him. It was the last

9 question I asked. Do you remember when I said could I have leave? I put

10 that portion to him and I said I suggest this happened.

11 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.

12 MR. RE: He said no.

13 JUDGE MUMBA: So you did put it to him.

14 MR. RE: I put it to him. Mr. Lazarevic misunderstands. He never

15 challenged the fact of the arrest. They were challenging that Zaric said

16 to Sejdic, "Arrest Bobic." We had no indication ever that they were

17 challenging the fact that Sejdic arrests Bobic. It's a complete

18 misunderstanding. The cross-examination only goes to whether Zaric said

19 it to Sejdic, and even then doesn't suggest that Sejdic never said that.

20 And what my friend just read to the Trial Chamber allegedly said there is

21 no indication until the witness got in the box that he was challenging the

22 fact that -- he was saying that someone else had arrested Bobic. Two

23 witnesses gave unchallenged evidence that Sejdic arrested him. We had no

24 reason at the time to think that there was any challenge to it because it

25 was never challenged, not in the Rule 71 filing, not in cross-examination,

Page 17706

1 not till he actually got in the box. That's my point. We -- that's where

2 it goes to credibility. The --

3 JUDGE MUMBA: That is fine, then.

4 MR. RE: They had that statement of Mr. Bobic in which he said

5 well in advance Mr. Sejdic arrested me. That's in his statement. The

6 Defence has had that statement for years and the portion in -- the

7 previous portion, which I wish to tender into evidence - I'll be finished

8 in a second - in which it says "on the 17th Sejdic told me that Zaric had

9 said something." They were on notice for a long time that Sejdic was the

10 person who arrested Bobic and that Sejdic had said to Bobic, "Zaric has --

11 Zaric told you -- gave me certain orders." There's no surprise about

12 this. It was just not challenged. So we didn't lead it from the witness

13 in re-examination. There's no back-dooring here. That's an absurd

14 suggestion. Rule 90(H)(ii) is very specific.

15 MR. LAZAREVIC: And if I can reply very briefly. The fact who

16 arrested Kemal Bobic was absolutely of none interest for the Defence of

17 Simo Zaric. We have, of course, never challenged the fact that Mr. Bobic

18 was arrested, and at the point we really -- it was not of the interest for

19 Mr. Zaric's Defence whether he was arrested by this, this or a third

20 person. It was none of our interest. Then suddenly during trial a piece

21 of information appears that it was allegedly ordered by Mr. Zaric. Of

22 course we -- we didn't want it -- want to challenge anything related to

23 harassment of Mr. Bobic, but then we were surprised by hearing here that

24 it was allegedly ordered by Mr. Zaric. We are not defending here

25 Mr. Sejdic. Why would we -- why would we challenge that at that point?

Page 17707

1 But then when Mr. Bobic gave this piece of information that Mr. Zaric

2 allegedly ordered Mr. Sejdic, this is the moment that we approached

3 Mr. Sejdic. We didn't have the intention to bring Mr. Sejdic here. It

4 was not of any interest for our case. When we approached Mr. Sejdic it

5 was for the first time when we heard this information that actually he

6 never arrested Mr. Bobic, and this is -- this is the position of

7 Mr. Zaric's Defence. It wasn't whether he arrested or not Mr. Bobic. It

8 was not of any interest of us until the moment when before this Trial

9 Chamber Mr. Bobic said that it was allegedly ordered by Mr. Zaric. Why

10 would we -- why would we be interested in that, whether it was Sole or

11 Mr. Sejdic or some third person who arrested Mr. Bobic?

12 JUDGE MUMBA: I think you've finished the question and you're now

13 repeating.

14 [Trial Chamber confers]

15 JUDGE MUMBA: The Trial Chamber will give its ruling in due

16 course.

17 Mr. Lukic.

18 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Not this particular topic. I wanted

19 to raise another issue.

20 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Lukic.

21 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, since we have a bit of

22 time, I would like to raise a subject now which I believe would be in the

23 interest of the further course of our proceedings. This is a subject that

24 I must admit I've found troublesome for quite some time now. And now

25 since we have time and because of the questions that were raised today,

Page 17708

1 this has only corroborated my cause for concern. And this is what it's

2 all the about, Your Honours:

3 The Prosecution from the very beginning of the Defence case - I'm

4 talking about the Defence case of Blagoje Simic too - during the

5 cross-examination they often put the following questions: Do you have any

6 reason to doubt the statement, et cetera, et cetera. And this relates to

7 two types of evidence. One is the interviews of Mr. Zaric and Mr. Tadic

8 respectively that are often put to witnesses partially, and others are

9 admissions that appeared before this Court, Mr. Todorovic, Mr. Milan

10 Simic, and Mrs. Biljana Plavsic. Although at the very outset when the

11 Prosecution started putting such questions the Trial Chamber admitted such

12 questions, I believe that such questions and the answers that are obtained

13 on the basis of such questions cannot be helpful to the Trial Chamber,

14 regardless of the type of answer that is received from the witness.

15 On the other hand, in this kind of situation, the Defence at that

16 point in time is not in a position to question the type of answer that is

17 given by the witness at that point. I am going to distinguish between the

18 two. In relation to the interviews of Mr. Zaric and Mr. Tadic - and you

19 will remember that questions were often put in this connection, and

20 witnesses usually gave two types of answers - these interviews are very

21 big, they're long.

22 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Lukic, following what you are saying, these are

23 matters you'd put in your submissions regarding the weight that should --

24 the Trial Chamber should put to the evidence, not at this stage of the

25 proceedings.

Page 17709

1 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I was quite aware of that, that this

2 was something that should particularly be analysed in final briefs.

3 However, I think that especially with regard to these sections that are

4 presented from various judgments, the Defence is not in a good position.

5 Through the re-examination, it cannot put proper questions. Could I

6 please explain why we cannot put proper questions?

7 If you think that through a special submission we could express

8 our views on this, I would be in favour of that. But I think that this is

9 important for our further proceedings.

10 JUDGE MUMBA: No. What I'm saying is these are matters for your

11 closing arguments, as to how the Trial Chamber should treat the evidence

12 they listed in this or that manner.

13 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] The weight is one matter, the weight

14 of the documents. I understand that full well. We are going to deal with

15 that. But the other matter is the ability of the Defence to give the

16 motives to these witnesses, why some people admitted to certain things.

17 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Lukic, I don't think that should bother you.

18 The Trial Chamber is very much aware that it cannot accept certain types

19 of answers from witnesses, depending on the type of witness who's being

20 asked. So that shouldn't bother you at all.

21 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I'm worried about such questions are

22 put to the witnesses in the first place and that witnesses present their

23 views on certain things they do not know about. They do not know why

24 Stevan Todorovic admitted to certain things but he was involved in the

25 plea bargain, and they don't know about that, and this happens all the

Page 17710

1 time. The same goes for Mrs. Biljana Plavsic too. We do not have the

2 terms of the plea bargain.

3 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Lukic, I've told you that these are matters

4 for your closing arguments. You should -- you should be able to attack

5 the evidence which is supporting the Prosecution case in any way you feel

6 like and give your reasons. You cannot do it at this stage.

7 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I fully appreciate that. Your

8 Honours, I have understood your instructions.

9 And I would just like to refer to yet another topic: Since as of

10 Monday we will be starting a new way of examination related to Rule 92

11 bis, I would just like to ask the Trial Chamber for their instructions.

12 When we are the ones doing the examination-in-chief of these witnesses,

13 does this pertain only to those sections of their evidence that were taken

14 out by the Trial Chamber?

15 And the second question is whether the Prosecution can only limit

16 themselves to what the statements of these witnesses say? Since this is

17 going to be our very first time to deal with this kind of issue, as of

18 Monday, we need guidelines.

19 This in addition has to do with Rule 90(H). So basically is the

20 entire statement part of the examination-in-chief and then how does this

21 relate to 92 bis? I mean, we would really appreciate it if we could get

22 instructions with regard to all of this.

23 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Lukic. The statements admitted into

24 evidence under Rule 92 bis are already part of the evidence of the -- the

25 evidence in chief of that particular witness.

Page 17711

1 For the paragraphs that were struck out and where the Trial

2 Chamber has allowed the witness -- has ruled that the witness should come

3 and give viva voce evidence, the viva voce evidence will be limited to

4 those matters raised in those paragraphs only. Because you'll notice that

5 these paragraphs were discussing the acts and conduct of the accused as

6 charged in the indictment or very, very related to the conducts -- to the

7 conduct of the accused as charged in the indictment. That is the reason

8 why they could not be allowed into evidence. So the examination-in-chief

9 will be limited only to those paragraphs, and that's why the timing is

10 also limited.

11 When it comes to -- of course the witness will be shown the

12 statement so that he realises that his evidence is already on record.

13 That is the practical side.

14 When it comes to cross-examination, almost in all -- almost in all

15 the statements the Trial Chamber has not limited the Prosecution to any

16 area of cross-examination. It has only given them the time limit.

17 There's only one statement where the Trial Chamber, I think, limited the

18 cross-examination to events of the 16th and 17th. Yes, and there are

19 reasons for that. Is that clear now?

20 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] It is quite clear. Thank you very

21 much for these instructions. This will be very valuable for preparing our

22 witnesses. Thank you.

23 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Pantelic.

24 MR. PANTELIC: Yes. Your Honour, I am in the position to inform

25 the Trial Chamber that during this last break we obtained two witness --

Page 17712

1 two translated witness statements according to Rule 92 bis, and I would

2 like to tender it into evidence.

3 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Please go ahead.

4 MR. PANTELIC: Ms. Usher, could I have your assistance, please.

5 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Can we have a number, please.

6 MR. PANTELIC: Just for the record, Your Honour, this is a

7 statement in accordance with Rule 92 bis of Mr. Aleksandar Jankovic.

8 THE REGISTRAR: This will be treated as document D172/1 ter ID and

9 D172/1 ID. Thank you.

10 MR. PANTELIC: Thank you very much.

11 And I also have another statement. There's enough -- I'll check.

12 Yes, six copies; three for the Trial Chamber, the rest for the registry,

13 court officer, and Prosecution.

14 And for the record, the other statement is a statement of Mr. Simo

15 Jovanovic. Thank you, Your Honour.

16 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Can we have the number.

17 THE REGISTRAR: This will be document D173/1 ter ID and D173/1 ID.

18 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.

19 MR. PANTELIC: And Your Honour, if -- I don't know, do we have

20 something on the agenda of procedural matters? Because I have just a very

21 brief issue. It's not related to procedural matters.

22 JUDGE MUMBA: I just want to know how many more witnesses --

23 statements are yet to come.

24 MR. PANTELIC: I think -- I will tell you. I think five or six.

25 And the interpreters -- the interpreter unit informed me that even during

Page 17713

1 this afternoon it could be done, and then I would transmit the -- if that

2 would be a case, I would give the adequate number to the court officer

3 and --

4 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Please submit them as they keep coming.

5 MR. PANTELIC: Immediately, as I will collect it.

6 JUDGE MUMBA: So that the Prosecution can also have time.

7 MR. PANTELIC: Yes. Yes, Your Honour.

8 JUDGE MUMBA: So for these three and I think the last one we had

9 of a lady who was working in the bank --

10 MR. PANTELIC: In the bank. Yes, Your Honour.

11 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.

12 MR. PANTELIC: Belka Andric.

13 JUDGE MUMBA: Andric, yes.

14 [Trial Chamber confers]

15 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. For these three plus the one by Belka Andric,

16 the four statements, the Trial Chamber will give the Prosecution three

17 working days to indicate in writing what their position is. So we expect

18 the response to be in by Thursday latest.

19 Anything else, Mr. Pantelic?

20 MR. PANTELIC: Yes, Your Honour. Due to unknown reasons for me, I

21 was not able to visit my client during the last break. I was waiting for

22 20 minutes in the lobby, and I don't know, probably it's some logistical

23 problem, some technicality. I would kindly ask the registry to arrange me

24 10 minutes or 15 minutes conference with my client in his cell at the

25 basement if it's possible, since we were scheduled to work until 1.45. So

Page 17714

1 that was the reason -- I wasn't able to visit him during the last break.

2 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

3 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. The Trial Chamber is informed by the registry

4 assistant that that shouldn't be a problem.

5 MR. PANTELIC: I would like to thank you. Yes, thank you, Your

6 Honour.

7 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. The Trial Chamber wanted to address

8 Mr. Miroslav Tadic and Mr. Simo Zaric regarding sittings next week. The

9 Trial Chamber wanted to sit for one and a half hours each afternoon

10 Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, and Thursday so that we can finish the

11 witnesses. Especially for Mr. Simo Zaric, who is expecting to have

12 surgery towards the end of next month. Because that would assist us to

13 move with the witnesses as quickly as possible and also allow us to hear

14 Mr. Simo Zaric possibly before surgery.

15 Mr. Tadic?

16 THE ACCUSED TADIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I have not

17 given this any thought. I was not aware of this possibility earlier,

18 and as far as I have been informed, my witnesses are coming on Monday. So

19 I can't think what to tell you.

20 JUDGE MUMBA: No. I'm -- I was asking this in connection with

21 your health.

22 THE ACCUSED TADIC: [Interpretation] My health situation is

23 unchanged. It's only getting worse. It's certainly not getting any

24 better. I was promised therapy, but since November they couldn't find

25 time for me. Whenever they could make time for me, I had to be in court,

Page 17715

1 and vice versa. And it's been going on like that since November. They

2 have not administered any therapy concerning my osteoporosis, which is

3 quite critical, I must say.

4 JUDGE MUMBA: Very well.

5 Mr. Simo Zaric?

6 THE ACCUSED ZARIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I am going

7 through psychological preparations for my operation. I had a conversation

8 yesterday and I was told that my operation would take place between the

9 13th of April and the 28th of April, so I can't say with any degree of

10 precision -- and they told me that there were two reasons why they

11 couldn't give me the exact date: Because the hospital is not able to get

12 more than a seven-day advance notice; and the other reason was that it was

13 not yet known whether I would be operated on in the prison hospital or

14 outside the prison hospital. I am doing my best to be here every day, but

15 this requires a lot of medical assistance. I think this is my current

16 maximum, it's the best I can do. On my part, I believe, I should apply to

17 this Trial Chamber to have my operation and to testify after my operation.

18 I am not sure, however, that Mr. Tadic's witnesses and all my witnesses

19 according to -- under the -- under Rule 92 bis will be dealt with as

20 quickly as everyone now imagines, and I'm not sure I can stay as focussed

21 now before my operation and follow as closely as I would like to.

22 Finally, I don't think it's a good idea for me to testify before

23 my operation. I'm just not sure about that. I know you want my sincere

24 opinion, and I know that no one can make me do anything I would refuse to

25 do, but I just don't think it would be fair. I think it would be beyond

Page 17716

1 my powers.

2 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Zaric, the Trial Chamber is only concerned with

3 your witnesses, because you are giving evidence after all your witnesses.

4 That's all. I'm not asking whether or not you should give evidence before

5 or after your surgery. That is up to what the medical doctor will say.

6 THE ACCUSED ZARIC: [Interpretation] Yes. As far as the witnesses

7 are concerned, the way my current state of health is now --

8 JUDGE MUMBA: No, no. The question is -- so your position is that

9 you wouldn't be able to sit for another one and a half hours in the

10 afternoon?

11 THE ACCUSED ZARIC: [Interpretation] No, that would be far too

12 strenuous for me, really, far too strenuous. As I am now, I think I am

13 fully stretched in terms of health.

14 JUDGE MUMBA: Very well.

15 Any other matters?

16 MR. RE: Just a very quick clarification. Ms. Winner -- sorry,

17 our case manager has just drawn to my attention: Your Honour said there

18 were four 92 bis statements from Mr. Pantelic that were outstanding. Was

19 that --

20 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. We had received one earlier.

21 MR. RE: I've noted Jankovic and Belka Andric and Simo

22 Jovanovic being the three we've received this week. Is there another?

23 [Trial Chamber and legal officer confer]

24 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, it's actually three.

25 MR. RE: Thank you, Your Honour.

Page 17717

1 JUDGE MUMBA: Not four.

2 We shall adjourn now and continue our proceedings on Monday.

3 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned

4 at 1.31 p.m., to be reconvened on Monday,

5 the 31st day of March, 2003, at 9.00 a.m.

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