Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 18152

1 Monday, 7 April 2003

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 [The witness entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 9.09 a.m.

6 JUDGE MUMBA: Good morning. Please call the case.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning. Case Number IT-95-9-T, the

8 Prosecutor versus Blagoje Simic, Miroslav Tadic, and Simo Zaric.

9 JUDGE MUMBA: The Prosecution is cross-examining. Now, before we

10 proceed, the Trial Chamber has a ruling on the use of the statements

11 recorded by the Prosecution investigators, such as the one the witness

12 made which the Prosecution is desirous of using in cross-examination. The

13 Trial Chamber has inquired on the record. It shows that Dr. Blagoje Simic

14 surrendered on 12th March, 2001. Prior to that surrender, Mr. Pantelic

15 was lead counsel for Mr. Miroslav Tadic. So at the time documents

16 including this statement were served, it was during the time that

17 Mr. Pantelic was lead counsel for Mr. Miroslav Tadic. And on the service

18 of documents, the documents are served on the accused through counsel.

19 When Mr. Pantelic became counsel for Dr. Blagoje Simic, the

20 Prosecution was required to disclose documents regarding Dr. Blagoje Simic

21 at that time. The Trial Chamber is of the view that in order to ensure a

22 fair trial, the statement cannot be used for the reasons that all the

23 evidence adduced using that statement -- all the evidence adduced using

24 that statement will be disregarded. As this is a joint trial, the

25 evidence on record would be considered with respect to all the accused

Page 18153

1 persons.

2 We can proceed.


4 [Witness answered through interpreter]

5 Cross-examined by Mr. Re: [Continued]

6 Q. Good morning, Mr. Omeranovic. I trust that you have rested over

7 the weekend. Can you hear me?

8 A. Yes, thank you.

9 Q. Your evidence on Friday was that you were a member of the 4th

10 Detachment from I think the end of December 1991 through sometime in

11 1992. And that you were --

12 MR. LAZAREVIC: I think that my colleague is misquoting what the

13 witness said. He said from January 1992.

14 MR. RE: It's not important. I'm just taking the witness back to

15 the fact that he was a member of the 4th Detachment.

16 Q. Do you remember the 4th Detachment in the beginning of 1992,

17 Mr. Omeranovic? That was your evidence on Friday. I think you said you

18 were the commander of a platoon.

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. The situation with weapons distribution to members of the 4th

21 Detachment was that there was no central warehouse for keeping weapons in

22 Bosanski Samac once so issued, was there?

23 A. I said last time that we got weapons during a military exercise

24 near Brcko.

25 Q. My question was: There was no -- once the weapons were issued to

Page 18154

1 the members of the 4th Detachment they kept them at home, didn't they,

2 because there was no place to keep them in Bosanski Samac, that is, no

3 central storage place?

4 A. I've already said to you that we got weapons near Brcko, we, the

5 members of the 4th Detachment.

6 Q. All I'm asking you about is where they were kept. Members of the

7 4th Detachment kept them at home, didn't they?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Some of the weapons were issued to platoon or company commanders

10 who distributed them to their troops, weren't they?

11 A. No.

12 Q. Everyone who had a weapon in the 4th Detachment was issued with a

13 permit, weren't they?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. These permits were signed by Colonel Nikolic in advance, weren't

16 they?

17 A. I think so.

18 Q. Was it that Colonel Nikolic or someone in his command gave the

19 presigned weapons permits to company and platoon commanders to give to

20 their troops upon issue of the weapons?

21 A. No.

22 Q. Who issued the weapons permits, that's the presigned one that

23 Nikolic had signed? Who issued those to the troops or the members of the

24 4th Detachment upon receiving their weapons?

25 A. The moment they got the weapons, they got these permits, too,

Page 18155

1 these certificates.

2 Q. Members of the 4th Detachment who kept their weapons at home, of

3 course, included company and platoon commanders. That is, you all kept

4 your weapons at home, didn't you?

5 A. Oh, yes, I said that last time.

6 Q. Some members of the 4th Detachment kept more than one weapon,

7 military-issued weapon, in their home, didn't they?

8 MR. LAZAREVIC: I have to object because how could the witness

9 possibly answer to this question, "some members." If this could be more

10 specific as whether he knows about such a thing and something like that,

11 whether he kept more than one or someone he knows. But "some members," is

12 just not clear enough.

13 MR. RE: I'm sure the witness can answer the question, Your

14 Honour, as to whether --

15 JUDGE MUMBA: No, Mr. Re, it's better to be specific what are the

16 names of those people. You first ask him whether he knows whether some

17 members of the 4th Detachment kept more than one weapon.

18 MR. RE:

19 Q. Mr. Omeranovic, are you aware of members of the 4th Detachment

20 keeping more than one military-issued weapon in their home?

21 A. I've already said that I had a platoon, and that the only weapons

22 they had were automatic rifles, nothing else. I don't know about the

23 others.

24 Q. All right.

25 Over the course of the last few years, you have been interviewed

Page 18156

1 by Defence lawyers and investigators, haven't you?

2 Do you understand my question? Over the last few years, Defence

3 lawyers or investigators have interviewed you, taken statements from you

4 in relation to this case, haven't they?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. In the course of your conversations with investigators or Defence

7 lawyers, have you told them that it was a frequent, normal occurrence for

8 the trucks going to the marketplace bringing goods there to park near your

9 house?

10 A. I could not get out of my yard. These people who came to the

11 marketplace left their trucks parked in front of my house and down the

12 entire street. But this was during the day.

13 MR. RE: Your Honour, just excuse me for one moment. I just want

14 to check the transcript. It may take me a second.


16 MR. RE:

17 Q. Sir, on Friday, I asked you, this is at page 82, line 7 of the

18 transcript, for everyone's benefit, I said: "And trucks frequently park

19 in the vicinity of your house delivering their produce to markets, don't

20 they"? Your answer was: "Sir, the markets is 50 metres from me. In my

21 street, it was forbidden to park vehicles regardless of whether they were

22 passenger or freight vehicles. You were allowed to -- not park, and

23 parking was defined as stopping for more than 15 minutes."

24 Do you remember that question and answer on Friday?

25 A. Yes.

Page 18157

1 Q. On Friday --

2 A. Yes, but that's why the police intervened, and they had to leave

3 those spaces that were not parking spaces to begin with, but in order to

4 unload their goods, people would stop there for about 10 minutes or

5 whatever, unload their goods, and then they would proceed. They were not

6 supposed to park there.

7 Q. I'm just trying to clarify. On Friday, your answer suggested that

8 trucks didn't park there because they weren't allowed to. Today, a moment

9 ago, you just told us that people were -- you could not get out of your

10 yard. "These people that came to the marketplace left their trucks in

11 front of my house and down the entire street." What I want to ask you is

12 why, when I asked you on Friday trucks -- just wait a minute, please.

13 When I suggested to you the trucks parked in front of your house, you

14 didn't just simply say yes, they did, preventing me from getting out of my

15 yard. Instead, you told the Trial Chamber that trucks were not allowed to

16 park there. Why the difference in the two accounts, sir?

17 A. I think it's different, sir. I mean, this is what the rules are

18 in our part of the world in traffic. At places where one is not allowed

19 to park, one may stop, though, but after 15 minutes, it's considered to be

20 parking. I did not say that stopping was forbidden, but parking is

21 forbidden, yes.

22 Q. I'll just take you back to the question I asked a moment ago which

23 was: Did you tell the lawyers or investigators for the Defence that it

24 was a frequent, normal occurrence for those trucks to bring goods to that

25 marketplace and stay parked there? That's all I want to know. Is that

Page 18158

1 what you told them during the course of your conversations with the

2 Defence lawyers or investigators?

3 A. Nobody even asked me about this.

4 Q. On Friday, this is at page 73 of the transcript, about line 5,

5 Mr. Lazarevic asked you: "At any point in time did you together with

6 Mr. Simo Zaric in that street in front of your house -- or rather in front

7 of your mother's house, did you unload boxes of military weapons from a

8 truck and carry it into your backyard?" Your answer to the question was:

9 "Let me tell you, sir, I've already said what the ethnic composition was

10 in my street. Had I taken a bottle of whiskey and carried it through the

11 street, and carried it into -- it into my home, everybody would have seen

12 it, even if I carried it in a shopping bag. But two trucks, two trucks,

13 that is so absurd. First of all, I would not allow any such thing to

14 happen in front of my house, and it didn't happen."

15 Now, that was the question Mr. Lazarevic asked you, and that was

16 the answer you gave. Mr. Lazarevic asked you about a truck, but you

17 responded by saying two trucks and repeating it. Why, sir, when he asked

18 you about a truck did you respond by saying two trucks, two trucks?

19 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Lazarevic.

20 MR. LAZAREVIC: Your Honours, but I have to say one thing to my

21 colleague. While preparing and proofing with this witness, I quoted

22 him --

23 MR. RE: I object. I've put a question to the witness. My

24 learned friend is cluing him. I'm asking him about his answer on Friday.

25 That's not a proper objection.

Page 18159


2 MR. RE: Your Honour.

3 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, I'll allow Mr. Lazarevic to complete his

4 objection if he still wants to put it up.

5 MR. RE: Your Honour, if he's going to put words in the witness's

6 mouth or provide an explanation which the witness can give, I would object

7 to him giving that explanation. If he's objecting on the basis of

8 relevance or form or some of the legitimate basis for objecting, of course

9 I don't object to him.

10 JUDGE MUMBA: I'll allow counsel to put up his objection.

11 MR. LAZAREVIC: Your Honours, while proofing with this witness,

12 there was some parts of transcript where his name was mentioned by witness

13 Nusret Hadzijusufovic, and while preparing this witness, I quoted him, I

14 read him these relevant parts of transcript where it was said that there

15 were two trucks, and this is what I discussed with this witness while

16 preparing this. Maybe this can give an explanation to my learned

17 colleague how come it was mentioned. Maybe my question, the way I

18 understand what my colleague said, it was probably my question that was

19 problematic for the witness. I said "trucks." Maybe I did say "truck" or

20 "trucks," but it was really nothing that should mislead this witness

21 because he was familiar with the transcript excerpts where his name was

22 mentioned.

23 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Re and to the witness also, the witness under

24 solemn declaration to tell the truth, so there should be no problem. You

25 can continue your cross-examination.

Page 18160

1 MR. RE: May it please the Court.

2 Q. The question is this: On Friday, Mr. Lazarevic asked you about a

3 truck. Your response was, you spoke about a shopping bag, but two trucks,

4 and you repeated it. "Two trucks, that is so absurd." What I want to

5 know is: Why, when Mr. Lazarevic asked you about one truck, a truck, you

6 responded by saying two trucks and repeating it?

7 A. Well, precisely for the reason that the Defence counsel explained

8 to you just now.

9 Q. And is that that Mr. Lazarevic told you in proofing you or in

10 conference that there were -- the allegation was two trucks? And when he

11 asked you about one truck, you decided to answer it by saying two trucks?

12 A. Well, let me say this to you: I don't even remember that I said

13 "two," but let it be. Maybe I did. Two trucks, I mean, the way that

14 witness put it...

15 Q. Sir, I suggest that what happened was that in early April 1992,

16 during the night, two trucks arrived outside your house. There were two

17 men there, and you and Mr. Zaric were present when they unloaded a box

18 from the car -- sorry, from the truck, and the two men carried it into

19 your backyard or your mother's backyard carrying a box which had rope

20 handles on it. I suggest that's what happened.

21 A. No. That is a lie.

22 Q. Your evidence on Friday was that you had worked for the Red Cross

23 from just after when you had been released from detention, along the lines

24 of you had run into a friend --

25 A. Yes.

Page 18161

1 Q. Your evidence was that you had run into a friend who offered me a

2 sort of job at the Red Cross.

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. I just want to show you a document, please, sir.

5 MR. LAZAREVIC: Your Honours, in respect of this document, I have

6 just received it 20 minutes ago, just before these proceedings started

7 this morning. I didn't have time to discuss this document with the

8 witness. I have no problem with the contents of this documents.

9 Furthermore, it is -- in fact, it is proving what the witness said

10 according to the date when he did start working for the Red Cross. But I

11 just want it for the record that this document was never discussed with

12 the witness.

13 MR. RE: The Prosecution responds by saying it's a Red Cross

14 document, and the Prosecution had no reason to, (a), look for the document

15 or, (b), disclose it until the witness gave evidence on Friday that he had

16 worked for the Red Cross because it wasn't in the summary which was

17 provided and filed with the Court. There was no mention of the Red

18 Cross. And we didn't find out until Friday that there was going to be

19 evidence on the Red Cross, and as a result of this, the document

20 appeared. It's an identical document to D1413, I think. And except it

21 has this man's name on it instead of someone else's. In fact, the case

22 manager, Mr. Leese, has just reminded me that it was in fact disclosed by

23 the Defence last year because it bears a Y number. The simple reason why

24 we hadn't disclosed it before because we had no reason to. I understand

25 there's no objection to it.

Page 18162

1 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Lazarevic simply stated that he wanted to

2 put it on record that he just received this document. Now, Mr. Re, what

3 is the position? Is the position that because it bears a Y number, that

4 means it was disclosed last year? Is that the position of the

5 Prosecution?

6 MR. RE: Just a moment, Your Honour. If it has a Y number, then

7 it was disclosed by the Defence. That's what Mr. Leese tells me.

8 JUDGE MUMBA: Oh, I see. It is a document which comes from the

9 Defence to the Prosecution.

10 MR. RE: Yes, last year. That's my instructions on that point.

11 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Lazarevic.

12 MR. LAZAREVIC: If I may give just one brief answer. First of

13 all, the Prosecution here referred on a number of occasions during its

14 cross-examination to the statement that this witness gave to the

15 investigators of the Prosecution. And looking through this statement, it

16 is quite obvious, on page 2, that the witness said: "A friend of mine

17 came and asked me to work for the Red Cross." So this was not the first

18 time that the Prosecution heard from this witness that he worked for the

19 Red Cross. They already had this information back in 1998, if I am

20 correct when this statement was given. One second, in 1998. And the

21 other thing is that this document I've seen here for the first time.

22 As I already said, I have no problem with the content of this

23 document and the dates and everything. This is truly the very same

24 document as we had for Witness Svetozar Vasovic, the form is the same,

25 everything is the same, except for the name of this witness and the date

Page 18163

1 is different when he started working for the Red Cross. But I just want

2 to say this particular document, we haven't received as the Defence of

3 Mr. Zaric, and this is the first time that we have this document.

4 JUDGE MUMBA: No, what the Prosecution is saying is that because

5 of the labelling of it, that is a document which came from the Defence,

6 which was disclosed to the Prosecution.

7 MR. LAZAREVIC: What I can assure the Trial Chamber is that we

8 didn't have this document. The Defence of Mr. Zaric, we did not disclose

9 this document to the Prosecution. This is what I can say on behalf of

10 Mr. Zaric's document. Otherwise, we would tender it into evidence through

11 this witness.

12 MR. RE: It was apparently one of 464 documents which Mr. Di Fazio

13 received from the Defence, I can't tell you exactly who from, in July -- I

14 think the 25th of July, 1991. 1991, yes. 1991. I'm sorry, I've given

15 you the wrong date. 25th of July, 2001.

16 JUDGE MUMBA: Which Defence?

17 MR. RE: The records I have with me don't reveal it, but --

18 Mr. Lazarevic doesn't object to the document.

19 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] If I may be of assistance, I think

20 these are documents by the Red Cross that the Defence for Mr. Tadic

21 disclosed to the Prosecution. It is a set of several Red Cross documents

22 that we have disclosed, but we haven't been using them. We haven't

23 tendered them into evidence.


25 Yes, the Prosecution can proceed.

Page 18164

1 MR. RE: Thank you, Your Honour.

2 Q. Mr. Omeranovic, you see that document there. It's a document

3 issued by the Serbian municipality of Samac Red Cross Crisis Staff. And

4 you can see from the document it's a work obligation assignment for you

5 dated the 19th of April, 1992.

6 A. This document, I have seen this document for the first time in

7 July when the general mobilisation was being carried out, and there, at

8 the time, it was said that whoever held this type of a document did not

9 have to respond to the mobilisation callup. I went to the Red Cross then

10 and asked if I had such a document. And the man working there gave me

11 this particular document, and that was the first time I had seen it. And

12 I used it at the time for that particular reason, not to have to respond

13 to the mobilisation callup. And as for this date, well it could be the

14 20th or the 30th written here on this particular document, but what is

15 true is that I started working -- working as soon as I came out of the

16 prison, and not just me, there were many of us, Muslims, Bosniaks, and we

17 were working in the streets, in the crossroads, where we were distributing

18 bread and milk to the citizens. It wasn't just me. There was over 20 of

19 us. It was only later that I got this. I didn't even know that I was

20 admitted into the Red Cross under the work obligation. It was only after

21 I had seen this document that I realised this.

22 Q. Thank you.

23 MR. RE: May the document be tendered into evidence. We only have

24 a B/C/S at the moment. We will have it translated straight away.

25 JUDGE MUMBA: We will mark it for identification until we receive

Page 18165

1 the translation.

2 MR. RE: Thank you.

3 JUDGE MUMBA: Can we have the number, please.

4 THE REGISTRAR: This document will be treated P173 ter IT.

5 MR. RE:

6 Q. You can see from the document, Mr. Omeranovic, it refers to you

7 having -- receiving a work obligation on the 19th of April. That date is

8 consistent with when you started, just the date, isn't it? Within a few

9 days, the date on the document, 19th of April, is consistent with when you

10 started working with the Red Cross, isn't it?

11 A. I started working before then reflected on this document. Well,

12 anyway, I was lucky to have received the document.

13 Q. All I'm asking you is: You were in custody on the 17th or the

14 18th. This document is dated the 19th. Your evidence was that you

15 started working with the Red Cross almost as soon as you got out of -- as

16 soon as you were released from custody. The date there is consistent with

17 about the time when you started working for the Red Cross to within a

18 couple of days, isn't it? That's all I'm asking you.

19 A. Well, according to what you're saying, this is true, but not

20 according to what I know. I was supposed to obviously start working on

21 this date, and it seems to me that it was later.

22 Q. Do you know who arranged for your work obligation through the Red

23 Cross, given that that document says it was a work obligation? Do you

24 know who's responsible for arranging it? If you don't, just tell us.

25 A. Well, no one really arranged it. It wasn't just me there. There

Page 18166

1 were other Bosniaks. Whoever they needed was taken on. But I think that

2 whoever worked also had this type of a document. I cannot speak for the

3 others.

4 Q. Your work at the Red Cross --

5 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Re, you should be winding up.

6 MR. RE: Yes, Your Honour.

7 JUDGE MUMBA: You started on Friday.

8 MR. RE: I'm only asking about the Red Cross because it was raised

9 in examination-in-chief, and that wasn't taken account of when Your

10 Honours set the cross-examination time limits. And there is a link

11 between the Red Cross and other aspects of the indictment which I just

12 briefly wish to ask the witness about if he knows, and only because it was

13 raised in examination-in-chief, not in the summary we received.

14 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. You better move fast, then.

15 MR. RE: Yes, thank you, Your Honour.

16 Q. Your work at the Red Cross, Mr. Omeranovic, did you -- did it

17 involve visiting prisoners in detention centres? Yes or no.

18 A. No.

19 Q. Did your work at the Red Cross have anything to do with exchanges

20 or lists of people for exchanges?

21 A. No, nothing whatsoever to do with that. I wasn't doing that type

22 of work. As I told you, for a while, we were distributing bread and

23 milk. Afterwards, I left the Red Cross, and then when I came back again I

24 performed all sorts of manual-types of jobs, unloading trucks, whatever

25 was actually the hardest work.

Page 18167

1 Q. Were you aware of how the Red Cross operated in Bosanski Samac?

2 A. No.

3 Q. And you said that you left the Red Cross. Where did you go when

4 you left the Red Cross?

5 A. To the factory where I worked before. Because I was -- I received

6 a call.

7 Q. When you went to the factory, was that a work obligation

8 assignment you received, to go and work in the factory?

9 A. Yes, yes.

10 Q. Now, I just want to ask you about -- finally, I want to take you

11 back very briefly to the arrest. As far as you know, your name wasn't on

12 any list of people to be arrested or of people who may have had illegal

13 weapons, was it?

14 A. I do not understand the question.

15 Q. As far as you know, in April 1992, your name wasn't on a list of

16 people who had weapons, which they had illegally acquired in the hands of

17 the people who were doing the arrests, as far as you know?

18 A. How should I know?

19 Q. What I'm asking you is: No one ever told you your name was on a

20 list. Is that correct?

21 A. No one ever told me anything. I was just arrested, beaten up,

22 taken away, and detained. That's all.

23 Q. As far as you know --

24 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Re, you finished the Red Cross extension which

25 you said wasn't in the summary.

Page 18168

1 MR. RE: This is my question last, Your Honour.

2 Q. As far as you know, Mr. Omeranovic, your arrest was a mistake and

3 was probably only because you're a Muslim?

4 A. No, because I was a member of the 4th Detachment because they were

5 arresting some Serbs as well.

6 MR. RE: Can I just ask him how many Serbs he knows of --

7 JUDGE MUMBA: No, Mr. Re. You keep on extending your time.

8 MR. RE: It's just the one issue of --

9 JUDGE MUMBA: Can you please sit down.

10 MR. RE: Your Honour, he raised something in the answer.

11 JUDGE MUMBA: Can you please sit down, Mr. Re.

12 MR. RE: I'm going to sit down. I just want to put on the record

13 I just wanted to ask him who these Serbs were. That was the only thing I

14 wanted to ask him, but I won't.

15 JUDGE MUMBA: Re-examination.

16 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, given that the

17 Prosecution has introduced a document disclosed to them by the Defence for

18 Mr. Tadic, I would like to put some questions to the witness relating to

19 these documents and relating to the questions put to the witness by the

20 Prosecution relating to this document.

21 I would kindly ask the witness to be shown the Document P --

22 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter didn't hear the number. The

23 interpreter apologises.

24 Cross-examined by Mr. Krgovic:

25 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Omeranovic, good day.

Page 18169

1 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] P173 ID. That was the previous

2 document.

3 Q. Mr. Omeranovic, my name is Dragan Krgovic, and I will put to you

4 several questions on behalf of the Defence for Mr. Tadic relating to the

5 document you have just seen. When you were answering the questions by the

6 Prosecutor, if I understood you well, can you tell me precisely when was

7 it that you started working for the Red Cross?

8 A. As soon as I left the prison.

9 Q. And you saw this document only in the month of July?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Mr. Omeranovic, would you be so kind as to read this document

12 carefully. Does the document mention the term "work obligation," or does

13 it only say "assignment to different jobs and tasks"? This because the

14 Prosecutor used the term "work obligation" when putting his question to

15 you. And I haven't really read the contents of the document. Could you

16 please read this first paragraph under this decision. What does it say?

17 A. "Assignment of workers to jobs of the Serbian Red Cross in the

18 staff of the Serbian municipality of Bosanski Samac." Is this what you're

19 referring to?

20 Q. Yes. Does this document mention anywhere the term "work

21 obligation"?

22 A. No, it doesn't.

23 MR. KRGOVIC: Thank you, Mr. Usher. I don't need this document.

24 [Interpretation] Your Honours, I have finished with my

25 questioning.

Page 18170

1 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Lazarevic.

2 MR. LAZAREVIC: Thank you, Your Honours. It will be very brief.

3 Re-examined by Mr. Lazarevic:

4 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Omeranovic, the Prosecutor asked you about

5 the statement you gave to the OTP investigators on the 27th of November of

6 1998, and the Prosecutor quoted certain parts of the statement asking you

7 whether you said something like that to the investigators. Now I would

8 kindly --

9 JUDGE MUMBA: The Trial Chamber has just made the ruling this

10 morning that the evidence adduced by using that statement to be

11 disregarded because of the fact that it wasn't served on Mr. Blagoje Simic

12 and the fact that as this is a joint trial, any evidence will be taken

13 into consideration for all the accused persons.

14 MR. LAZAREVIC: Yes. Thank you, Your Honour. What I wanted to

15 quote to the witness had nothing to do with Mr. Blagoje Simic. This was

16 something related strictly to Mr. Simo Zaric, but if this is the ruling,

17 then I won't have any questions, any redirect for this witness.

18 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you for giving evidence to the Tribunal. You

19 are now finished. You may leave the courtroom.

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

21 [The witness withdrew]

22 MR. PANTELIC: Your Honour, good morning. While we are waiting

23 for the next witness, may I briefly address the Chamber, please.

24 JUDGE MUMBA: Is it to do with the next witness?


Page 18171

1 JUDGE MUMBA: Wait, I'll give you time.

2 MR. WEINER: Your Honour, may I brief the Chamber concerning the

3 next witness, please.

4 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, because I don't want the next witness delayed.


6 JUDGE MUMBA: What you want to say is concerning the next witness?

7 MR. WEINER: Yes, it is.

8 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Pasaga Tihic.

9 MR. WEINER: Your Honour, we have been given 20 minutes

10 cross-examination for Pasaga Tihic, and the Prosecution had a proposal.

11 The next witness, as I said, has been given 20 minutes cross after 40

12 minutes of examination-in-chief.

13 My next witness after Pasaga Tihic is Peta Kalavic. This witness

14 is a 92 bis witness who I will either cross-examine for one hour tomorrow

15 or Wednesday morning based on how the schedule proceeds. This -- Your

16 Honour, if I have to make an offer of proof I'd like to make it outside

17 the presence of the witness, unless he not put his headphones on and he

18 doesn't speak English.

19 JUDGE MUMBA: Maybe he can just wait outside the courtroom just by

20 the door, please.

21 MR. WEINER: As I said, the next witness that I have to

22 cross-examine after this witness will be tomorrow, which is we have been

23 given one hour, which is Peta Kalavic, a 92 bis witness. The witness

24 today has given two statements, one to the OTP, a six-page, single-spaced

25 statement and a two-page statement to some investigators in Orasje, not

Page 18172

1 OTP investigation. He was originally a witness for the Prosecution. What

2 the Prosecution would like to do is take the one hour from Peta Kalavic

3 and use that to cross-examine this witness, and Peta Kalavic which is a 92

4 bis witness which we barely feel we have no cross-examination for just use

5 the 20 minutes tomorrow or the following day for that witness.

6 This specific witness here can assist in many topics. He is the

7 sole witness concerning certain incidents or one of two or three witnesses

8 that witnessed certain evidence. He provides evidence -- rebuttal-type

9 evidence to people such as Naser Sejdic, who was the police officer, who

10 was the Muslim police officer who worked at the SUP under Stevan Todorovic

11 and testified two days ago. But utilising this witness Pasaga Tihic, it

12 doesn't require us to call a witness in rebuttal. We can use him as one

13 of the few witnesses who stayed a long time at the high school. We've had

14 a lot of testimony from people who stayed at the SUP, the Territorial

15 Defence building, and the primary school. This is one of the few

16 witnesses we've had throughout the trial who has stayed at the high

17 school. He is one of the few if any of --

18 THE INTERPRETER: Could the counsel slow down, please.

19 MR. WEINER: I'm very sorry. He's one of the few of any witnesses

20 to the statements that Simo Zaric made concerning Namik Suljic. He's a

21 witness in relation to actions that he has seen Blagoje Simic commit. He

22 is a witness as to actions of Simo Zaric. He is a witness as to actions

23 at the radio station. He is a witness as to information relating to the

24 famous Novi Sad television programme, what happened to the tape of that

25 programme, and how the tape, the audiotape was then used in Bosanski

Page 18173

1 Samac.

2 As a result, we're not asking for additional time and to extend

3 the trial. We just want to take the witness that I'll have to

4 cross-examine tomorrow or Wednesday morning, Peta Kalavic who has been

5 given one hour, it's a 92 bis witness statement with a one-hour

6 cross-examination. I only need 10 to 20 minutes on that. Give the 20

7 minutes for this witness, Peta Kalavic, and let me take the one hour for

8 Peta Kalavic and use it today. I've notified Defence counsel who was

9 producing this witness of this yesterday.

10 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Before you sit down, I just want to know about

11 the statements the witness made. Do they fall in the same category?

12 MR. WEINER: No. The major statement, the OTP statement has been

13 provided to all counsel. I have the receipts signed by counsel. The

14 second statement I provided yesterday. I am not introducing the second

15 statement. There's a couple phrases I might question him on basically

16 just to refresh his recollection. I don't have really any use for the

17 second statement. The first statement is extensive.

18 [Trial Chamber deliberates]

19 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, the Trial Chamber agrees to give you the time

20 that you have asked for in exchange for the time for the witness you

21 mentioned Peta Kalavic.

22 MR. WEINER: Thank you very much.

23 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Krgovic.

24 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, one clarification.

25 The Prosecutor is speaking of two statements given by this witness. We

Page 18174

1 received from the Prosecution in the reciprocal disclosure a statement by

2 this witness while he was on the list of Prosecution witnesses. And now

3 the second statement mentioned by the Prosecutor is something we have

4 never received. We have received the statement yesterday, and an official

5 proffer written by a person after the interview with Mr. Pasaga Tihic.

6 And I would kindly ask my learned colleague to tell me which is the other

7 witness? Is it -- this other statement done not by the OTP but by someone

8 else or is there a third actually statement, some third document that he's

9 referring to?

10 MR. WEINER: No, Your Honour, I'm referring to the statement that

11 was taken in Orasje by Zvonko Susic, which I provided yesterday. I'm not

12 introducing the statement. I'm not going to use it to impeach him. The

13 most I would do is refresh his recollection if there's any question that

14 he cannot recall a certain fact. But most of my -- just about all of my

15 cross-examination will concern the first statement, just information that

16 he has previously provided, which he has sworn to, which he has signed,

17 and he has initialled every single page of the statement.

18 JUDGE MUMBA: Very well. We will proceed.

19 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honours. I have this

20 statement here. It is not a statement by Pasaga Tihic. There are no

21 initials of his. These are just some official notes done by a third

22 person from Derventa. His name is Zvonko Susic who made some sort of a

23 notation which has not been signed by the witness.

24 MR. WEINER: Counsel might be confused. That's the new statement,

25 the two-page statement, which I'm barely going to use. I might just

Page 18175

1 refresh a witness's recollection with it. The key statement is the

2 statement that was given to the OTP.

3 JUDGE MUMBA: What Mr. Krgovic is saying is that statement, the

4 second one, is not a statement by the witness.

5 MR. WEINER: No, no.

6 JUDGE MUMBA: They are notes by somebody else.

7 MR. WEINER: Yes, it's an investigator's statement.


9 MR. WEINER: Correct.

10 JUDGE MUMBA: Then it's not a statement of the witness, then.

11 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] That is what my intervention was

12 concerned about.

13 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Yes, because if it's the investigator's notes,

14 then it can't be used with the witness.

15 MR. WEINER: No, the only thing it could be used is to refresh his

16 recollection, do you recall discussing this? Does this refresh your

17 recollection that you discussed this, witness, and you said the

18 following? Does that refresh your recollection? Can you now recall after

19 hearing that? Whatever question I asked him.

20 JUDGE MUMBA: Is there any record that the notes were read back to

21 him, the normal things? Because what we are against is holding a witness

22 to notes by somebody else because the notes are made by somebody else

23 according to their own understanding.

24 MR. WEINER: No, no, all I would use that for, Your Honour, if I

25 said to him: Do you know John Smith -- and I'll just use an example, Do

Page 18176

1 you know John Smith, and he says, I don't recall. I could show him his

2 statement and refresh his recollection, remember, you made a previous

3 statement about John Smith and you said X, does that now refresh your

4 recollection that you know John Smith and anything about him? He can

5 either say yes or he can say no. If he says no, I go on to another

6 subject. It's just to refresh his recollection.

7 JUDGE WILLIAMS: I think there's just one sort of problem --

8 MR. WEINER: His interview. I use the word "statement."

9 JUDGE WILLIAMS: You used the word "statement" again.

10 MR. WEINER: I could show him his previous interview. In fact,

11 under the doctrine of refreshing recollection you can use anything,

12 including the old joke which is in the English case books you can use a

13 banana. If you show someone a banana and they say yes now they recall

14 whatever previous facts they previously said, that is sufficient.

15 JUDGE MUMBA: All right, Mr. Weiner. You can bring the witness

16 in.

17 Yes, Mr. Pisarevic.

18 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, before the witness

19 makes the solemn declaration and before he enters, I'd just like to say

20 that we have been caught rather by surprise with this request of the

21 Prosecutor --

22 JUDGE MUMBA: [Previous interpretation continues]... And don't

23 give him the earphones, first. Yes, Mr. Pisarevic.

24 [The witness entered court]

25 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] We are taken quite by surprise in

Page 18177

1 this situation when proofing this witness and deciding to call this

2 witness under Rule 71, in this, we base ourselves on the fact that the OTP

3 has not called this man as his witness, and we told the witness on his way

4 here that the Chamber had decided to hear his testimony only with

5 reference to a particular part of events, and that is how the witness was

6 proofed.

7 And it was said then that the OTP would examine Mr. Tihic during a

8 time that you had set aside for it, that is, 20 minutes, half of the time

9 that had been allotted to us for the examination-in-chief. I mean, I only

10 wish the Trial Chamber to bear this in mind, but in principle, your

11 decision is there. And I shall naturally be guided by your instructions

12 and directions at the time when we were taking these statements under Rule

13 71.

14 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Pisarevic, the Trial Chamber doesn't find

15 anything prejudicial to your case by allowing the Prosecution to have more

16 time to cross-examine this witness.

17 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honours, I fully agree

18 with you, and I do not think it will be prejudicial to Mr. Zaric's

19 Defence, and we merely wished to draw your attention to it.


21 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] And after the witness makes the

22 solemn declaration, I will start my examination.

23 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, we shall go ahead. Can the witness make the

24 solemn declaration.

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

Page 18178

1 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

2 JUDGE MUMBA: Please sit down.


4 [Witness answered through interpreter]

5 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Pisarevic, you can start.

6 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours.

7 Examined by Mr. Pisarevic:

8 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Tihic. I'm sorry about this to

9 and froing that happened. I will only inform you before we begin properly

10 that the Trial Chamber [as interpreted] has been allowed to examine you

11 for one hour. This is merely by way of information. And we shall now

12 move within the boundaries of the examination for which you were called by

13 Mr. Zaric's Defence.

14 As we were getting ready for this, I gave you some instructions --

15 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Just a little intervention, in your question,

16 "the Trial Chamber," you say, "has been allowed to examine the witness for

17 one hour." I think you mean the Prosecutor, do you not?

18 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, I said that the Trial Chamber

19 has decided that the Prosecutor should be granted one hour for

20 cross-examination.

21 JUDGE WILLIAMS: That clarifies it because there were obviously

22 words missed out in the transcript.

23 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] Right, well it must have been some

24 misunderstanding with interpretation.

25 Q. So wait for my question to finish. If something is not clear,

Page 18179

1 then tell me once again to rephrase my question, and I'll do that. But it

2 is very important for you to speak slowly and clearly, because it is

3 important to record your testimony in the transcript so that it remains

4 just the way that you testified here.

5 A. Thank you.

6 Q. For the transcript, please, will you tell us your name?

7 A. Pasaga Tihic.

8 Q. When were you born, Mr. Tihic?

9 A. On the 8th of April, 1961.

10 THE INTERPRETER: Will the counsel and witness please break

11 between question and answer.

12 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation]

13 Q. Will you tell us where were you born?

14 [Cannot distinguish between question and answer]

15 A. Slavonski Brod.

16 Q. When you say "Slavonski Brod," your birthplace, where is it, in

17 which former republic of the former Yugoslavia?

18 A. In the Croatian Republic.

19 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please come closer to the

20 microphone.

21 MR. LAZAREVIC: [Interpretation] Line 10, question and answer have

22 not been divided. After the question, will you tell us where you were

23 born? Slavonski Brod was the answer of the witness. It is not quite

24 clear here.

25 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Part of the problem was that there was no

Page 18180

1 pause between the questions and the answers.

2 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation]

3 Q. Just wait a little after you've heard my question, and then

4 answer.

5 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please come closer to the

6 microphone.

7 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation]

8 Q. If I understood you well, you said you were born in Slavonski

9 Brod.

10 A. Yes, I did.

11 Q. Slavonski Brod --

12 JUDGE MUMBA: [Previous interpretation continues]...

13 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation]

14 Q. In which of the republics of former Yugoslavia is Slavonski Brod?

15 A. In Croatia.

16 Q. Thank you. Tell us something about your education.

17 A. I've come from the electrical engineering school.

18 Q. Where did you complete that school?

19 A. In Sarajevo.

20 Q. Are you married, Mr. Tihic?

21 A. Yes, I am.

22 Q. Tell us, please, how many children do you have?

23 A. Two sons.

24 Q. Thank you. And where do you live now, you and your family?

25 A. In Slovenia, in Ljubljana.

Page 18181

1 Q. And where do your parents live?

2 A. In Samac, in Bosnia.

3 Q. Thank you. And what do you do now for a living?

4 A. I have a company in Slovenia.

5 Q. And what is it into?

6 A. By and large, equipment of petrol stations, publicity ads, but

7 mostly things that have to do with petrol stations.

8 Q. Thank you. Did you ever serve the Yugoslav People's Army?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Were you ever a member of a political party?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Will you please be so kind as to tell us which political party

13 were you a member of?

14 A. The SDA.

15 Q. And what is your ethnicity, Mr. Tihic?

16 A. Muslim, Bosniak.

17 Q. How long did you live in Bosanski Samac prior to the conflict in

18 April 1992?

19 A. Let me see, 30 years.

20 Q. Did you ever, earlier on, when you lived in Bosanski Samac prior

21 to -- until 1992, did you ever work and were you employed by the Bosanski

22 Samac radio station?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Please, will you tell us what was your job there and what is it

25 that you did at the Bosanski Samac radio station prior to 1992? How many

Page 18182

1 years were you employed with it and what kind of jobs did you hold there?

2 A. The job was an engineering job, a technician working with mixing

3 equipment. And at the same time, I was also involved in the production of

4 programmes, and I was also a disk jockey. I chose the music. That would

5 be it.

6 Q. Would you be so kind as to tell us how long did you do this?

7 A. I did it for about nine years. Practically from the time when the

8 radio station was opened in the Memorial Centre until I got a new job.

9 Q. That radio station --

10 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Pisarevic, I think it's important in view of

11 what the witness will be discussing, up to when did he leave the job?

12 Because it simply says: "Until I got a new job." We would like to know

13 when he stopped working at the radio station.

14 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, by all means. By all means,

15 Your Honour. And this was going to be precisely the next question that I

16 was -- that I wanted to ask. But I merely wanted to establish the fact

17 and ask Mr. Tihic, because he knows it, which were the wavelengths of the

18 Bosanski Samac radio station prior to 1992. And my next question was to

19 be: When did you cease working there.

20 Q. So will you please be so kind as to tell us what were the

21 wavelengths of the Bosanski Samac radio stations?

22 A. We had UHF, it had two transmitters, a medium waves and the UKT

23 transmitter. The latter was in the building itself, and the medium wave

24 was a couple of hundred metres away, that is, located in the primary

25 school in Samac.

Page 18183

1 Q. Thank you. And after that, where did you go then? What was your

2 next workplace and when did you change the company?

3 A. I went to a different company about a year before the conflict,

4 which means sometime around 1990, early 1991. And I went to join

5 Elektrodistribucija, the power distribution company.

6 Q. The events in Samac on the 16th and 17th, at that time you were

7 where? At the Elektrodistribucija Bosanski Samac, isn't it, that is where

8 you worked at the time?

9 A. That's right.

10 Q. Tell us, when were you arrested and who arrested you?

11 A. I was arrested on the 18th of April, 1992, and I was arrested by

12 those in many coloured uniforms.

13 Q. After that arrest, did you work at the Bosanski Samac radio

14 station? Tell us, please, if you did, then how did that come about? How

15 did it come about that you found yourself once again performing a job at

16 the radio station?

17 A. After I was arrested on the 18th of April, I was taken to the TO

18 offices, the Territorial Defence, the home guard offices. And the next

19 day, so it should be around the 20th of April, they came to take me to the

20 police offices, SUP or MUP, where I was detained. And there were two men

21 in many coloured uniforms there waiting for me. They only had nicknames,

22 Beli and Debeli. And they started beating me there, asking for a Mercedes

23 which I used to drive before the war broke out. And as -- when I told

24 them where the Mercedes was and what had happened to it, and so they left

25 that room and went to the adjoining one, and presumably somebody there

Page 18184

1 confirmed my statements, and then they let me go.

2 Q. And who did you meet then and whom did you go to visit?

3 A. Then, when they let me go, Stevan Todorovic asked me to come to

4 his office. That was the adjoining room.

5 Q. And what did Stevan Todorovic tell you then?

6 A. He told me to go to the radio station without delay, since

7 something was wrong with the programme there. Or, as he put it, something

8 was wrong with the radio station's work and that I should go there, report

9 to the editor, the then editor, and my former editor, Mr. Vaso Antic. And

10 if I failed to do that, or if I escaped, they knew that my parents were at

11 home, my father, mother, and all the other members of my family, my

12 sister, too, and that they would kill them.

13 Q. Thank you. Were you also obligated to report to the police

14 station daily?

15 A. After I went and reported to Vaso Antic, the then editor, I was

16 also obligated to report to the police station three times a day, and

17 there was always the threat if I escape, my parents are at home.

18 Q. Thank you. So you came, and did you report to the editor Vaso

19 Antic, and what did you establish as you -- when you went to the radio

20 station in Bosanski Samac?

21 A. Yes, I went there straight away to see Mr. Antic. I reported to

22 him. However, since I saw with my own eyes, as I had spent nine years

23 working at that place, I saw that at the mixing device, I could see that

24 the medium wave transmitter was not operational, or rather that the

25 frequency which covered the wide area of Bosanski Samac municipality.

Page 18185

1 Q. And which was the frequency of the Radio Bosanski Samac?

2 A. It used UKT transmitter. It was the ultrashort waves, and it

3 covered only the central part of the town. But basically, the ultrashort

4 waves still covered part of the town and also switched on the transmitter.

5 Q. And what did you establish?

6 A. I went to the site, and since I said that the medium-wave

7 transmitter was not far from the radio station's building, and I could see

8 that a part of the school building which housed the medium-wave

9 transmitter had not been damaged or rather had not been set on fire

10 because the rest of the school was on fire. And presumably, the

11 firefighters, as they were putting out the fire in the school, had also

12 damaged the medium-wave transmitter by pouring water over it.

13 And when I got there, I saw that the whole transmitter was

14 immersed in water, so naturally it could not work.

15 Q. And did you repair it then?

16 A. Yes, by working at night, I put it in order again and I think that

17 two days later, it became operational again.

18 Q. And did the coverage of the -- the area covered by Radio Samac

19 increase when this was put back in operation?

20 A. Well, I'd say that the area covered by it increased by some three

21 or four times.

22 Q. And after that, what did you do in the radio station itself? What

23 was your job? Will you please describe your tasks.

24 A. Every time after I'd report to the SUP building in the morning,

25 I'd go to work in the radio station, and I would air the programme. My

Page 18186

1 task was to see that the radio station works, that it is operational, to

2 broadcast programmes, that is, to broadcast programmes as ordered by the

3 then editor, Mr. Antic.

4 Q. Tell me, please, could anything be broadcast by Radio Samac

5 without you sitting at the mixing console and do you realize that nothing

6 could have been broadcast without your knowing about it?

7 A. No, nothing could be broadcast without my knowing about it. That

8 is, without me switching it on and releasing it.

9 Q. And you, of course, controlled the work as the programmes went on,

10 didn't you?

11 A. Yes. Let me just add, I was involved in the editing, in the

12 broadcasting, in the removal of -- well, by and large, what the editor

13 told me.

14 Q. Can you remember, what was aired most frequently?

15 A. Well, apart from music, there were various proclamations,

16 information, and such like. But in between and before and after and in

17 between, there was music.

18 Q. Mr. Tihic, how long did you go on working for the Bosanski Samac

19 radio station?

20 A. You mean after I was brought there?

21 Q. Yes, following the 17th of April and the 18th of April. When

22 after you were brought there again?

23 A. I don't know the exact date. I mean, how many days? Well, about

24 a month. 30 days or so.

25 Q. And as you were there in the radio station in Samac, did you ever

Page 18187

1 see Mr. Simo Zaric be present or visit the offices of Radio Samac or take

2 part in Radio Samac's programmes?

3 A. As far as I can remember, he never did that.

4 Q. And now tell me, what do you know about whether you were tasked by

5 your editor to copy some of Mr. Zaric's statements from a video to an

6 audiotape?

7 A. Yes, but not only Mr. Zaric's, but also all the other material

8 that was brought there, that is, I copied it all, and then I broadcast

9 programmes as ordered by Mr. Antic.

10 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I believe it is now

11 time for our regular break. Mr. Tihic, we shall resume after the break.

12 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, we'll continue at 11.00.

13 --- Recess taken at 10.30 a.m.

14 --- On resuming at 11.02 a.m.

15 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Pisarevic.

16 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

17 Q. Before this break, Mr. Tihic, you spoke about everything you did

18 while you were at the radio -- while you worked at Radio Samac, and you

19 talked about sound mixing and things like that. Now, tell me, do you

20 remember whether you had a videocassette with some interviews that you

21 then taped on to audiotapes? Can you tell us about this, who asked you to

22 do this and what was done generally speaking?

23 A. One day, Mr. Antic, the editor, brought a videocassette. And he

24 said that the material from that tape should be taken off, and of course,

25 I did that. From the video, I retaped it on to those big professional

Page 18188

1 tapes, Revox, so then we had this entire material retaped.

2 Q. Was Mr. Simo Zaric's interview on that tape, the one that he gave

3 to TV Novi Sad? Do you remember that?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Did you then also retape the interviews of other interviewees from

6 that programme, from TV Novi Sad?

7 A. All of it, the whole thing.

8 Q. Do you remember that there was an interview of Mr. Tihic; Omer

9 Nalic; Hadzialijagic, nicknamed Coner; Izetbegovic, do you remember all

10 that?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Thank you. We also said that there was Mr. Omer Nalic's

13 interview, right?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Thank you.

16 Q. And tell me now, since you were the man in charge of producing

17 this programme, did you play this cassette, the cassette with Mr. Zaric's

18 interview? Was it actually broadcast in the programme?

19 A. As far as I remember, yes.

20 Q. Can you remember how many times this happened during that one

21 month while you worked at Radio Samac?

22 A. Two or three times.

23 Q. Thank you. And after this one month, what happened to you?

24 A. Well, at the very outset when I started working at the radio

25 station, Mr. Todorovic ordered that a man be brought in, a young man who I

Page 18189

1 was supposed to train for working at the radio station. Of course, he was

2 a Serb in terms of his ethnic background. So I did that. To give this

3 information accurately, his first name is Goran, and I think his last name

4 is Bosic. And one day, two policemen came to -- they came after my

5 working hours were over. They came to pick me up. They took me to the

6 high school. I was there among the other prisoners. I was the only

7 Muslim among the Croats who were there. All the rest were Croats.

8 Q. Thank you. While you were detained, were you in a position to

9 follow the radio programme of Radio Bosanski Samac and do you know what

10 was broadcast?

11 A. No, this was not an opportunity that was given to us, no.

12 Q. Thank you.

13 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, thank you. I have

14 no further questions.

15 JUDGE MUMBA: Any other counsel?

16 The Prosecution.

17 Cross-examined by Mr. Weiner:

18 Q. Good morning, Mr. Tihic. My name is Phillip Weiner. I'm with the

19 Office of the Prosecutor. I'm going to be asking you some questions over

20 the next hour. All right? Thank you.

21 Now, let's go back to April 18th when you were arrested by Serb

22 paramilitaries. You were taken to the police station with Ibrahim

23 Salkic. Isn't that correct? Ibela?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And when you arrive at the police station, you meet with Stevan

Page 18190

1 Todorovic and a paramilitary called Crne?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And they give you some orders at that time. They tell you that

4 you and Salkic are to go to the Red Cross building and remove the flag,

5 the Red Cross flag, at the local Red Cross. Isn't that correct?

6 A. Correct.

7 Q. And they tell the members of the 4th Detachment that are present

8 that they are to escort you on this assignment. Isn't that correct? And

9 when I say "they," Crne and Todorovic tell certain members of the 4th

10 Detachment that they are to escort you on this mission or assignment?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And you were told, you and Ibela Salkic are told that you are to

13 walk in front of the 4th Detachment members who will be searching for

14 weapons?

15 A. Yes, yes.

16 Q. And you and Salkic, Mr. Salkic follow these instructions from

17 Todorovic and Crne and you leave the police station with 4th Detachment

18 members?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. And before leaving the police station, Todorovic gives you some

21 sort of white armband for you and Salkic to wear when you're walking in

22 front of the 4th Detachment members? Correct?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Now, you walk along the roadway apparently towards the Red Cross

25 building, and there's a group of 4th Detachment members in a Praga that

Page 18191

1 are behind you?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And could you please describe to the Court what this Praga looks

4 like? Was it big? Was it small? Did it have a gun on it? Is it armour

5 plated? Could you please describe to the Court what a Praga looks like.

6 A. Well, I'm not very knowledgeable as far as these weapons are

7 concerned, but this is an armoured vehicle, and it had a barrel in front.

8 That's about it. Well, it's not like a gun on a tank; it's smaller. It's

9 sort of like on a machine-gun or something like that.

10 Q. Okay. How many 4th Detachment members were escorting you either

11 on the Praga or on foot?

12 A. I don't know how many of them were in the vehicle, but around the

13 vehicle, I can't remember now exactly how many of them were there. But I

14 don't know. About ten.

15 Q. Okay. Just a group of them basically. Now, in addition to the

16 4th Detachment members that were sent by Todorovic and Crne, were there

17 any paramilitaries, you know, the Serbian paramilitaries, that were also

18 present either on the Praga or in that group that was escorting you?

19 A. I can't remember.

20 Q. Okay. And while you walked to the Red Cross building -- did you

21 eventually get to the Red Cross building and remove the flag, the Red

22 Cross flag?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. And while you carried out this order, you indicated that you

25 stopped at houses where the 4th Detachment members would search for

Page 18192

1 weapons?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And just a final few questions on this: You indicated that the

4 Serbian paramilitaries, Laki and Crne's group, were wearing camouflage

5 uniforms and painted faces?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And the 4th Detachment members also had some camouflage uniforms

8 and some were in civilian clothing or regular clothes?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Okay. Now, you stated that you were originally in the SUP, and

11 then you get moved to the TO. And around the 20th, the 21st of April, you

12 get called back across the street to the police station. Isn't that

13 correct?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And you were originally brought to a group of paramilitaries where

16 you were beaten, and they tried to extort your car or money or whatever

17 from you. Isn't that true?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. And then after you were beaten, you were brought next door to

20 Todorovic's office, to the next office over. Is that correct?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And you indicated in your statement that when you were brought

23 there, present in that office were Todorovic, the defendant Simo Zaric,

24 Vlado Sarkanovic, and Milos Culapovic?

25 MR. LAZAREVIC: Maybe my colleague can clarify that because that

Page 18193

1 is not what we heard here.

2 MR. WEINER: All right, thank you. No problem.

3 Q. You previously indicated -- not in your testimony today but in

4 your statement which you had given to the OTP, that when you got to the

5 office, Stevan Todorovic, Simo Zaric, Milos Culapovic, and Vlado

6 Sarkanovic were all in Stevan Todorovic's office. Is that what you

7 recall?

8 A. No, that's not the way it was.

9 Q. Why don't you tell us who was in the office?

10 A. When those two beat me up, this Beli and Debeli and when they

11 asked for the Mercedes, and when they checked my story, then they ordered

12 this policeman to take me. He took me to Mr. Todorovic's office which was

13 upstairs. When you go upstairs, then it's on the right-hand side.

14 Mr. Todorovic was there, and then he said to me that I should go to report

15 to Mr. Antic at the radio station. And then came all the rest that I

16 already talked about today.

17 Q. But at some time in that office with Stevan Todorovic, you

18 indicate in your statement which you gave to the OTP, Simo Zaric was

19 there, Vlado Sarkanovic was there, and Milos Culapovic was there. Do you

20 recall that? And then you talked to Simo Zaric, and he brings you into

21 another office. Do you recall that? Do you recall those people being

22 present?

23 A. Not in the room. Not in the room. Mr. Zaric was not in the room,

24 and Culapovic and Sarkanovic. But as I was walking downstairs, as I was

25 leaving Mr. Todorovic's offices, Mr. Zaric called me into a room that was

Page 18194

1 on the opposite side, on the left side, to show me some documents that he

2 had found. I don't know who found this actually, in this safe box.

3 Q. The only reason I want to clarify is because in your statement on

4 page 3, you state that: "The next morning I was taken to the SUP where

5 Stiv's office was. There I saw Stevan Todorovic, Simo Zaric, Vlado

6 Sarkanovic, and Milos Culapovic. Then Simo Zaric took me to a room."

7 So your statement is now that they weren't all together in room.

8 You met them separately at the police station. Isn't that correct? Is

9 that what your testimony is? You saw Stevan Todorovic in the office, and

10 you saw Simo Zaric in the hallway or the stairway?

11 A. Correct.

12 Q. Okay. Now, Simo Zaric brings you to Namik Suljic's office. Isn't

13 that correct?

14 A. Since we knew each other from before, we went hunting together and

15 I don't know what all, I mean together with this Namik Suljic, that's what

16 I wanted to say, he took me to this room next door to show me these

17 documents on which -- in which my name was too allegedly. And then he

18 said to me: Look, Pasaga, we have found these lists of certain

19 individuals from Samac. They were compiled by Alija Fitozovic. I said to

20 him then as well that I have nothing to do with these lists. Actually,

21 nobody asked me whether I wanted to be on these lists or not. That's it.

22 That's the first time that I saw that my name was on some kind of list.

23 Q. And he showed you these lists, and was anyone else in the room or

24 was it just you and Simo Zaric?

25 A. Only the two of us.

Page 18195

1 Q. And Simo tells you after he shows you these lists of Muslim and

2 Croat names, and those were the Muslim and Croat names of the persons who

3 were going to establish a military unit or the formation of a military

4 unit. Isn't that correct?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And Simo tells you at that point that if he had found Namik

7 Suljic, he would beat him badly. Isn't that correct?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Of what ethnic group is Namik Suljic a member of?

10 A. Muslim, Bosniak.

11 Q. And then after you have this meeting with Simo Zaric, what happens

12 to you next? Do you go back to Stevan Todorovic's office or do you leave

13 for the radio station?

14 A. The radio station.

15 Q. Thank you. Now, you go to the radio station to repair equipment,

16 to make sure it's fully functional or operational. Isn't that correct?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And the person in charge of the station is Vaso Antic, and

19 Ljubomir Cordasevic is the reporter.

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And while you're at the station over a period of a month, Stevan

22 Todorovic is calling on a daily basis, sometimes as much as 20 times a

23 day, asking or demanding that Chetnik or Serbian nationalistic songs are

24 to be played. Isn't that correct?

25 A. Yes, yes.

Page 18196

1 Q. And you had no such tapes in the radio station, but Vaso Antic

2 goes out and brings them to the station to play, to play over the air.

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. And sir, how often were these Chetnik or nationalistic songs

5 played or broadcasted over the air? How often each day?

6 A. All the time, throughout the programme, so between reports, pieces

7 of information that were broadcast before and after that. They were

8 played all the time.

9 Q. Okay. Now, sir, you also listened to some of the broadcasts such

10 as the daily news, different news reports, and proclamations? You were

11 listening to these. Correct?

12 A. I had to.

13 Q. And while you were listening, especially to the news broadcasts,

14 you were aware that the radio station was supplying false information or

15 propaganda to the public?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. And was this happening frequently, this false information being

18 supplied to the public? False stories?

19 A. Yes. Yes.

20 Q. Would you say on a daily basis it was happening?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And were you ever asked to assist in developing any of these false

23 tapes by adding sound effects or special effects or taping portions of

24 other stories together so they could play some of these false stories?

25 A. Yes. Yes.

Page 18197

1 Q. Who was producing these false stories or propaganda?

2 A. I don't know who was producing them, but Mr. Antic and

3 Mr. Cordasevic, they were journalists, so they typed these texts out, and

4 then they were read out by a lady announcer.

5 Q. Now, these false stories or propaganda, these would be used to

6 attempt to legitimise or to minimise certain improper conduct being

7 committed. Would you agree with that? You're nodding your head yes.

8 A. Yes, yes.

9 Q. Now, sir, were any improper phrases or terms used during these

10 radio broadcasts such as the word "Ustasha"? Was that ever used,

11 "Ustasha" or "Ustasha forces"?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Was the phrase "Muslim forces" ever used referring to Muslim armed

14 force -- Muslim soldiers, if you recall? Referring to the BiH army.

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. And was there ever any discussion of genocide against the Serbian

17 people, if you recall?

18 A. Against the Serb people?

19 Q. Yes. Do you recall those phrases, "genocide against the Serbs,"

20 similar to the TV Novi Sad programme where they discussed genocide against

21 the Serbs?

22 A. I can't remember that.

23 Q. Okay. Do you recall any mention of the Muslims want to impose

24 Islam on the Serbian people?

25 A. I can't remember.

Page 18198

1 Q. And finally, do you recall anything about always mentioning that

2 the Serb forces were defending, and you very rarely ever heard any mention

3 of the Serb forces attacking, they were always defending. Is that

4 consistent with what you had heard?

5 A. It has been 11 years, you know. I can't remember.

6 Q. All right. What sort of things do you recall, what sort of false

7 information or propaganda do you recall that was broadcasted over the

8 Radio Samac?

9 A. Well, concerning the number of persons killed, the advancement of

10 the Serb forces, the voluntary surrender. I don't know. Moving out,

11 something like that.

12 Q. Okay. And -- now, the person who replaced you at the radio

13 station, I think you mentioned his name, Goran something, was it?

14 A. Goran Bosic.

15 Q. Of what ethnic group did he belong?

16 A. Serb.

17 MR. LAZAREVIC: [Previous interpretation continues]... I don't

18 know why we need to go to this again. The witness has already said in his

19 testimony that he was replaced by a young Serb.


21 MR. WEINER: That's fine. As long as it's on the record. Thank

22 you.

23 Q. In fact, sir, didn't they broadcast at one point that the

24 paramilitaries or the camouflage soldiers, Crne and company, Crne, Luga,

25 Laki, Zvezdan, were not people from Serbia, but were really people who had

Page 18199

1 been born right in the Bosanski Samac municipality? Didn't they even

2 broadcast something to that extent?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. And you knew that wasn't true, having lived there for 30 years?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Now, sir, did the radio station or the reporter from the radio

7 station, didn't he cover civilian authority meetings such as Executive

8 Board meetings, Crisis Staff meetings, and when I say "covered," didn't he

9 attend and take notes to make reports?

10 A. Yes, yes.

11 Q. Now, the meetings that this -- do you know -- I'm sorry, let me

12 start again. Do you know where the meetings were held that he was

13 covering or that he would -- that the reporter would attend and take

14 notes?

15 A. He would go to the Crisis Staff, that is, rather, when I was on my

16 way to report to SUP in the morning, Mr. Antic and Cordasevic went to the

17 municipality to obtain some information.

18 Q. Now, you indicated you had to report to the SUP, the SUP or the

19 police station, three times a day. Isn't that correct?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And directly next to the SUP is the municipal building. If you're

22 facing the SUP, it's just to the left?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. And you would accompany Mr. Antic and -- what's Ljubomir's -- how

25 do you pronounce his last name?

Page 18200

1 A. Ljubomir Cordasevic.

2 Q. And you would accompany Mr. Antic sometimes and Mr. Cordasevic to

3 that area, the police station, municipal building. Isn't that correct?

4 Or you would all arrive at the same time? You would see each other there?

5 A. When I would be leaving my house, because I spent nights at home,

6 and then I would report to the SUP in the morning. And going from my

7 house, I would have to actually pass by the municipality building to get

8 to the SUP in order to report. And I did meet on several occasions when

9 they were on their way to the municipal building and I was on my way to

10 SUP.

11 Q. And at that time, when you were going to the SUP and passing the

12 municipal building, you were aware that there was a Serbian Crisis Staff

13 that had taken control of the town of Samac?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And you were aware that Blagoje Simic was the president of that

16 Crisis Staff?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And when you were in that vicinity of the police station or

19 municipal building - let's just take the vicinity of the municipal

20 building - did you ever see Blagoje Simic or any other Crisis Staff or

21 Executive Board members enter, any civilian officials, entering that

22 municipal building?

23 MR. LAZAREVIC: Before the witness answers, maybe first our

24 colleague should establish whether the witness knows who were the other

25 members, before he answers this question. He said that he was aware that

Page 18201

1 Mr. Blagoje Simic was the president of the Crisis Staff. But when he asks

2 him other members...

3 JUDGE MUMBA: The witness is capable of answering whether he knew

4 them or not. He will give that answer to the Prosecution. There's no

5 need for interference.

6 MR. WEINER: Thank you.

7 Q. Sir, first, did you see any civilian officials entering the

8 municipal building during that time?

9 A. Both civilians and uniformed people entered the building. I don't

10 know who you mean. Or else I don't know who members of the Crisis Staff

11 were, if that's what you're driving at.

12 Q. Let's start off with the Crisis Staff president. Did you ever see

13 Blagoje Simic enter the Crisis Staff -- enter the municipal building

14 located next door to the police station during that month that you had to

15 report to the police station? So we're talking about on or about April

16 21st to May 16th or 17th, during that time, did you ever see Blagoje Simic

17 enter the building, the municipal building?

18 A. As far as I can remember, no.

19 Q. All right, sir. Let me see if this refreshes your recollection.

20 I'm reading from page 4 of your signed, sworn statement, to the Office of

21 the Prosecutor. "It was also known to me that Vaso Antic and Ljubimir

22 Cordasevic who was a journalist at the radio station were attending

23 meetings at the municipal building every morning before the commencement

24 of the radio broadcasts. The other people present at the meetings were

25 the president of the municipality, Blagoje Simic, Milan Simic, Cedo Simic,

Page 18202

1 the fourth Simic, whose first name I do not know, as well as other members

2 of the Crisis Staff. I used to see them entering the municipal building

3 when I was on my way to report daily to the SUP."

4 Now, you gave your statement to the Office of the Prosecutor, sir,

5 in 1998. And you told the truth in your statement?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And you tried to recall and help as best as you could when you

8 were asked questions.

9 A. Yes, however, you asked me specifically about Blagoje Simic,

10 whether I had seen him. I cannot remember sitting here whether I did see

11 him or not and I cannot claim with certainty whether I saw Blagoje Simic,

12 Milan Simic, or this fourth Simic. A long time has elapsed for me to be

13 able to remember whether I saw him and where I saw him.

14 Q. Sir, is it fair to say that this statement, when this statement

15 was taken some five years ago, your memory was fresher because it was

16 closer to the incidents which occurred? It was closer to 1992? And it's

17 now five years later. So wouldn't your memory have been fresher or better

18 back then?

19 A. There are certain details that -- dating from 20 years back that I

20 can remember better than those that transpired two years ago. Well, I

21 don't know. What I do remember at present is what I am actually telling

22 you.

23 Q. Who do you remember walking in to the municipal building? Which

24 members of the civilian authorities that you can recall, if anyone?

25 A. I cannot remember.

Page 18203

1 Q. However, five years ago, you recalled Blagoje Simic, Milan Simic,

2 Cedo Simic, and a fourth Simic. Is that Simeon Simic? "And a fourth

3 Simic whose name I don't know and I used to see them entering the

4 municipal building when I was on my way to my daily reporting at the SUP."

5 When you said that back then, you were telling the truth? That was your

6 honest impression at the time, isn't that correct? You weren't lying to

7 the Office of the Prosecutor.

8 A. I'm not lying today either.

9 Q. No, I'm just saying you were telling the truth back then. You

10 weren't being dishonest with them, you weren't trying to fool them when

11 you provided that information. Isn't that correct?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. And concerning the people who were coming and going from the

14 municipal building, your memory apparently was much better five years ago

15 than it is today because you could recall certain details back then that

16 you can't recall anymore?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And that there is no reason to doubt your former statement that

19 Blagoje Simic, Milan Simic, Cedo Simic, and the fourth Simic, were

20 entering and exiting the municipal building and that you saw them do

21 that. There's no reason to doubt your previous statement because you

22 weren't lying to the Office of the Prosecutor.

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Okay, thank you.

25 When I said, there's no reason to doubt, I asked you a double

Page 18204

1 question. Basically, my question is: When you gave that statement, you

2 were telling the truth. Correct?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Thank you. Now, sir, let's move on. You're familiar with a man

5 by the name of Naser Sejdic [Realtime transcript read in error "Nasa

6 Sedjic"], a policeman?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. And you know Naser from the municipality Bosanski Samac, you know

9 him?

10 A. From the municipality?

11 Q. Yes.

12 A. Yes, he's a neighbour of mine.

13 Q. Okay. And you also know that he had a brother Jusuf who was in

14 the 4th Detachment? He had a brother Jusuf?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. And sometime after you had been arrested or sometime while you

17 were working at the radio station, you realised that Naser Sejdic was

18 working as a policeman, had returned to work as a policeman in the

19 Bosanski Samac police station under Stevan Todorovic?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And when you spoke, sir, in Derventa to Zvonko Susic, you

22 indicated that Naser Sejdic mistreated people in Bosanski Samac in his

23 role as a policeman, and I'd like to ask you some questions about that.

24 Do you recall saying that back then?

25 A. In Derventa?

Page 18205

1 Q. Yes.

2 A. I was never in Derventa with Zvonko. I don't know who Zvonko

3 Susic is.

4 Q. Do, sir -- do you recall -- let's take a step back. You were

5 aware that Naser Sejdic was arresting people in Samac while he served as a

6 police officer?

7 A. During the war?

8 Q. Yes, during the war.

9 A. I didn't see, but I heard from some other prisoners. I didn't

10 personally see it.

11 JUDGE LINDHOLM: Excuse me, just in order not to bring about

12 confusion, here all along the transcript, we talk about Nasa Sedjic. His

13 correct name, if I'm correct, is Naser Sejdic. Not Sedjic and not Nasa.

14 Naser Sejdic.

15 MR. WEINER: Sorry, Your Honour. I'm not very good with names.

16 Q. Now, sir, you're aware or you had heard from fellow prisoners that

17 Naser Sejdic arrested them?

18 A. That he was in the group which detained these people, took them in

19 custody into the police station. Some of my future colleagues who were

20 then detained there.

21 Q. And these people that Naser Sejdic was in the group that arrested

22 were Muslims and Croats?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. And he was also in the group or he himself transported them to the

25 Detention Centre, whether it was the SUP or Zasavica, either he was the

Page 18206

1 driver or he was part of the escort after they were arrested that escorted

2 them to a place of detention?

3 A. I don't know that.

4 Q. You also heard that Naser Sejdic threatened people? You were told

5 by your fellow arrestees, Muslims and Croats, that he had threatened them?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And you also learned from your fellow colleagues or fellow

8 arrestees that he was mentally harassing them?

9 A. I heard that once, he had a bit to drink and went there, but he

10 didn't really beat them up. He was just telling them something. I don't

11 know what.

12 Q. And he was harassing them in some manner? Although he didn't

13 physically punch them or beat them, he harassed them verbally?

14 MR. LAZAREVIC: I object to this question. The witness just said

15 that he didn't say what he told them.

16 MR. WEINER: His statement was: "He really didn't beat them up.

17 He was just telling them something."

18 MR. LAZAREVIC: I don't know what.

19 MR. WEINER: I'm trying to get some clarification to what was

20 happening, Your Honour.

21 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, the Prosecution can proceed.


23 Q. You indicated -- let's take a step back. Where does this incident

24 happen? Did this happen at one of the detention facilities, like the

25 primary school, the high school, the SUP, the TO?

Page 18207

1 A. I was at the TO, and this reportedly happened at SUP.

2 Q. Okay. So Naser Sejdic had gone there after he had had a few

3 drinks and he made some verbal statements which upset one or more

4 prisoners.

5 A. I don't know.

6 Q. I know you don't know directly, but that's what you had heard?

7 A. I can't remember.

8 Q. Okay, you don't recall. All right, thank you.

9 Now, let's move on a bit. Sometime in mid-May, you're imprisoned

10 at the high school.

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And at this point, when you get there, there are three to four

13 hundred Croat men being held in addition to you.

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And you knew these men, or a number of them, as locals from the

16 municipality?

17 A. Most of them.

18 Q. Okay. And these were civilians from the villages of Gornji

19 Hasici, Donja Hasici, Zasavica? Is that correct?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And were there any from any other areas, from Samac or from the

22 town of Samac, or any other locations, Crkvina, or mainly those three that

23 I mentioned?

24 A. There were some from Novo Selo, Tisina, Tursinovac, and Samac,

25 mostly those places where there were Croats. There were also some Croats

Page 18208

1 from Samac.

2 Q. And you had learned from them that not only had they been locked

3 up in the high school, but their families, meaning their wives and

4 children had been sent to Zasavica?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And having worked at the radio station and having heard the daily

7 news, you were aware that these imprisonments occurred after the Serbs or

8 just after the Serbs in Odzak were imprisoned, the imprisonments of the

9 Croats occurred just after the Serbs in Odzak were imprisoned?

10 A. Well, in terms of time period, it's very difficult for me to

11 assess it at present. Possibly.

12 Q. Would it be right about that time? Both things were happening

13 about the same time, if you recall?

14 A. I cannot determine precisely, but maybe approximatively one before

15 the other -- well, no, I can't remember.

16 Q. All right, no problem. Now, at the high school, conditions

17 weren't very good. Would you agree with me?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. And you agree that there weren't beds and blankets and sheets and

20 towels for all three to four hundred Croat men plus yourself?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And would you also agree with me that most of the prisoners were

23 beaten on at least one occasion, whether it was once, some were beaten

24 more than once? But at least most of the prisoners had been beaten?

25 A. Yes.

Page 18209

1 Q. In fact, on one occasion, when Lugar and some other paramilitaries

2 visited, most of the prisoners were beaten on that occasion, approximately

3 250 prisoners were beaten on that occasion. Isn't that correct?

4 A. Yes, yes.

5 Q. And you were also present when Lugar and his fellow paramilitary

6 named Zvezdan appeared and they murdered two civilians from either Donji

7 or Gornji Hasici?

8 A. Yes, yes.

9 Q. And they shot both of them? One was shot either in the head, and

10 the other either in the body or the head?

11 A. Since all of us received at least one hit by Lugar, I was able to

12 see myself when he killed one of them, but Zvezdan did not shoot at

13 anyone. And I think it's the same Zvezdan who was arrested now in

14 Belgrade. He didn't shoot at anyone. Now, whether Lugar killed the other

15 one as well or whether it was the other policeman who guarded us, well,

16 this is something I do not know to this very day.

17 Q. You indicated that Zvezdan was the one that was arrested recently

18 in Belgrade. Is he alleged to be the assassin of President Djindjic?

19 JUDGE MUMBA: No, that question won't be answered by the witness,

20 Mr. Weiner. You're getting outside the indictment.

21 MR. WEINER: Okay. I'll move on.

22 Q. Now, you were present, though, when these two people were killed.

23 You didn't see who killed the second one but both were murdered at the

24 high school. Correct?

25 MR. WEINER: The witness isn't receiving any sound.

Page 18210

1 THE INTERPRETER: The witness is waiting for the end of

2 translation.

3 There wasn't enough time for the interpretation to take place.


5 Q. Although you didn't see who shot the second man, you were aware

6 that two men were murdered at the high school by Lugar and some -- one of

7 his men or associates. Correct?

8 A. Yes, yes.

9 Q. Now, sir, you're basically testifying today off your memory. You

10 have no notes or diary or any records of any of the happenings at the high

11 school or the radio station? Isn't that correct?

12 A. Yes, yes.

13 Q. Now, you indicated that Simo Zaric had never visited the radio

14 station? You testified to that today.

15 JUDGE MUMBA: His evidence was that he never saw him.


17 Q. That you never saw Simo Zaric at the radio station.

18 JUDGE MUMBA: Because it makes a world of a difference.


20 Q. You never saw Simo Zaric at the radio station. That's what you

21 testified to today. But you're aware, because from counsel -- that in

22 your previous statement to the Office of the Prosecutor in 1998, you

23 indicated that Simo Zaric visited the radio station on page 4, and you

24 initialled that. You initialled the page that Simo Zaric visited the

25 radio station.

Page 18211

1 Could you tell us the reason for the difference, where in 1998 you

2 said Simo Zaric visited the radio station, and today you testify that he

3 didn't, or you never saw him at the radio station.

4 A. As far as I can remember today, I did not see him at the radio

5 station, that I actually saw him there. Whether he was there outside the

6 working hours, well, that I do not know.

7 Q. Now, you were -- you talked about the TV Novi Sad show that you

8 took the audio portion of and made an audiotape?

9 A. Sad.

10 Q. Novi Sad tape that you took the audio portion off and you made an

11 audiotape so it could be broadcasted on Radio Samac. Correct?

12 A. Correct, yes.

13 Q. And do you recall the information that was contained in that

14 tape? Do you recall what the tape was about? I remember that your

15 father-in-law was actually one of the persons on the tape.

16 A. Let me help you a little. I still have this tape at my place.

17 Q. Okay. So you're familiar -- you have to be very familiar with the

18 tape. And you recall that Simo Zaric -- first Colonel Nikolic speaks, and

19 then Simo Zaric gives several statements on the tape?

20 A. I watched this tape in 1992, and then in -- I don't know, was it

21 1996 or not? And not after that. But whatever the case, I have it. I

22 have it at home and I can watch it again when I return.

23 Q. I want to ask you if you recall a few statements that were made,

24 and we refer to the transcripts of that tape as Exhibit 16A.

25 Do you recall the tape starting off where the journalists talks

Page 18212

1 about an attempted genocide against the Serbs? Do you recall that?

2 MR. WEINER: Could the witness be shown 16A ter.

3 MR. LAZAREVIC: I apologise. For one thing, it is absolutely

4 irrelevant whether the witness remembers or not. We have seen this tape

5 in this Court. We have a transcript of the interview what was on --

6 everything what was in it. Asking him whether he remembers this portion

7 or that portion, it's irrelevant. It's not in content what was on the

8 tape.

9 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, this is the exhibit already before the Trial

10 Chamber, is it?

11 MR. WEINER: Yes, I want to ask him about some of the statements

12 that were made which are highly inflammatory, statements which incite

13 violence. And I want to ask him about his concerns and if he ever

14 confronted Simo Zaric about Simo Zaric's highly inflammatory and inciteful

15 statements.

16 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, I think it's only fair to put the exhibit

17 before the witness or to show -- I don't know how you're going to do it.

18 But at least put it there.

19 MR. WEINER: 16A ter

20 JUDGE WILLIAMS: I wonder, Mr. Weiner, whether it might be

21 preferable to actually just watch those couple of minutes of the actual

22 video.

23 MR. WEINER: I thought of that, but they are all in different

24 places. If the Court would like to watch maybe the first five minutes and

25 follow along with the transcript, if you feel that would be better.

Page 18213

1 JUDGE MUMBA: You mean the excerpts you wanted to refer the

2 witness to are in different places?

3 MR. WEINER: Yes, it may be one here, then one maybe two pages

4 later, then one a page later. So I was just going to refer only to two or

5 three of them

6 JUDGE MUMBA: Right. But you can take the witness through the

7 transcript because you would be able to refer.

8 MR. WEINER: I thought we could do it much quicker.



11 Q. Sir, could you look at the first page where it begins and it talks

12 about, if you look at the opening sentence, it says --

13 THE INTERPRETER: Your Honours, could the text be put on the ELMO,

14 please.

15 MR. LAZAREVIC: [Previous interpretation continues]... Placed on

16 the ELMO because they would also like to follow the proceedings.

17 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, that can be done.


19 Q. Sir, if you look at the document in front of you, do you see how

20 it begins, the first page, the opening sentence from the journalist: "A

21 massacre of the population of Serbian nationality and all Muslims who rose

22 to defend the Serbian people"? And then if you look at the third

23 sentence, go to the third sentence done where it begins with "what was the

24 role of the SDA..."

25 "What was the role of the SDA Party of Democratic Action leaders

Page 18214

1 and the Republic of Croatia in the attempted genocide against the Serbs?"

2 Do you see that, sir?

3 A. Yes, yes, I do.

4 Q. Did I read that correctly --

5 MR. LAZAREVIC: I apologise. We are watching something completely

6 different on the screen. I apologise.


8 Q. Now, if we go to the second page, page 2, Colonel Nikolic talks --

9 says: "Here in front of me are the photographs of children with helmets,

10 chequered flags, and guns. You can show up a close-up of these pictures

11 later, but I just want to tell you that in Orasje, for example, weapons

12 were distributed even to children who attended a school for the mentally

13 retarded."

14 Did I read that correctly?

15 A. You did.

16 Q. Let's go to the next page. I just want to refer to a few

17 paragraphs of Simo Zaric's comments. "In the past few days, all

18 information from the field suggested that something very bad was in store

19 for the town and its people." If you go down to the second sentence, the

20 end of the second sentence where it talks about "turning it," meaning

21 Bosanski Samac, "into a war-torn town and the slaughtering of the Serbian

22 and Muslim people who had jointly formed this Territorial Defence."

23 And then the last one, if we can just go to the next page and

24 we're finished, page 4 --

25 MR. LAZAREVIC: I apologise. The translation that we are

Page 18215

1 receiving is not accurate. If we could have it straight from the ELMO

2 because there are some words that were missed here. It was just that

3 Serbian and Muslim people were supposed to be killed. This is what it

4 says here.

5 MR. WEINER: The translation is from the translation department,

6 "slaughtering the Serbian and Muslim people who had jointly formed this

7 Territorial Defence unit."


9 JUDGE MUMBA: It is now correct.

10 MR. LAZAREVIC: [Microphone not activated]

11 MR. WEINER: Thank you.

12 Q. And the last one, page 4. Now, this Simo Zaric speaking: "I must

13 say that the special units of the Territorial Defence and the Serbian

14 police did a good job. Time will show that this was good -- this was for

15 the good of the people. They planned sabotage activities throughout the

16 town. You'll be able to see this, too. But they planned assassinations,

17 ambushes, surprise attacks, raids of various" - it can't be read, it's

18 unintelligible - "and other actions against members of the Territorial

19 Defence including the execution of their families and the destruction of

20 the people in charge and their property so as to prevent them from getting

21 in the way of attaining their objectives."

22 Did I read that correctly?

23 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter notes that the translation is

24 not a hundred per cent accurate.

25 JUDGE MUMBA: Which way, for instance?

Page 18216

1 THE INTERPRETER: Could we have the text back on the ELMO, please.

2 MR. WEINER: Could the translation please read it.

3 THE INTERPRETER: Yes, if we can get the text on the ELMO.

4 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, can you put it back on the ELMO.

5 MR. WEINER: Beginning with the word "Medutim," could the

6 translators please read.

7 THE INTERPRETER: "Yes, I have to say, however, that the special

8 units of the Territorial Defence and the special units of the Serb police

9 had done this job. The time [Realtime transcript read in error "town"]

10 will show it in favour of these people. Their plan says that they should

11 have resorted to sabotage actions throughout the town. Here you will be

12 able to see it, to organise assassinations, ambushes, attacks, et cetera,

13 against the Territorial Defence, liquidation of the families, destruction

14 of the most responsible people, not people in charge, and the property

15 which would be placed in their way so that they wouldn't persist in

16 pursuing those goals."

17 MR. WEINER: Thank you very much.

18 MR. PANTELIC: I do apologise.

19 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Pantelic.

20 MR. PANTELIC: It's page 63, line 13. Instead of word "the town,"

21 the proper word should be "the time."

22 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, that will be corrected.


24 Q. Sir, you smirked or kind of laughed when some of these were being

25 read. You were aware that this stuff wasn't true; this was just more

Page 18217

1 propaganda. Isn't that correct?

2 A. Whether it's true or not is up to you to establish.

3 Q. Sir, you knew in April and May of 1992, you knew it was a very

4 tense time in Bosanski Samac, people were being arrested, people were

5 being beaten, people were being murdered. You knew that was a very

6 serious and tense time. Isn't that correct?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Now, in this tense situation, were you concerned that Simo Zaric's

9 and Colonel Nikolic's statements, where they talk about slaughtering and

10 exterminating families, that that could incite violence or inflame the

11 Serb population against the non-Serbs? Were you concerned about that?

12 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I must object to

13 this question for the simple reason that the question starts with the

14 situation prior to the 17th, and then ends with the situation which is

15 taking place because this interview was on the 29th. So could my learned

16 friend clarify these matters, prior to the conflict when Mr. Zaric and

17 Colonel Nikolic delivered their speeches, and what was in this interview

18 which took place 12 or 13 days after the events in Bosanski Samac. I

19 think that this is simply confounding the witness. The witness is at a

20 loss what period of time he's being asked about.

21 MR. WEINER: I'll rephrase the question.

22 Q. Sir, you've testified that April and May were very tense times in

23 Bosanski Samac, and we talked about murders and arrests and beatings,

24 including yourself. Were you concerned that the broadcasting of those

25 phrases from Simo Zaric and Colonel Nikolic about slaughters, genocide

Page 18218

1 against the Serbian people, extermination of Serbian families, were you

2 concerned that that would incite violence or inflame the Serbs against the

3 non-Serbs or incite violence against the non-Serbs? Were you or your

4 fellow citizens concerned about that?

5 A. Well, I had to be concerned about everything because I was

6 arrested as early as the 18th, so that what I've read, what I've

7 understood, that was 10 or maybe 12 days after my arrest. That is, some

8 people were already arrested and a large number had been arrested by the

9 time.

10 Q. But the fact that you were being held, as were others, and people

11 were being beaten while in confinement and being mistreated, and you were

12 severely mistreated in confinement, were you worried that by playing this

13 over and over, it could incite the Serb officers, it could lead to

14 violence against the non-Serb population? Because they're talking

15 about -- or Simo Zaric is talking about threatening a genocide against the

16 Serb population. So did this concern you at all?

17 MR. LAZAREVIC: I must just add one thing here, and this is what

18 I -- Mr. Zaric was referring in this portion both to Muslim and Serbian

19 population. And this is here in Document P16. And he was referring to

20 members of the army of Serbian and Muslim ethnicity.


22 Q. Sir --

23 MR. LAZAREVIC: The genocide was mentioned only by the

24 journalist. It can be seen by checking of the transcript of the

25 videotape.

Page 18219

1 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Weiner, I think it's better to be precise

2 in your questions.


4 Q. Sir, were you worried in any tape that concerned slaughtering

5 people who were Serbs or Muslims in the 4th Detachment, which is a small

6 portion of Muslims in the municipality of Samac, were you worried that

7 that would have a negative effect or that that could incite violence

8 against the non-Serbs, especially those who were in jail, those who were

9 being held? Weren't you concerned about that, that it could inflame such

10 activity in this tense situation?

11 A. Why, of course I was afraid. Who wouldn't be afraid if you were

12 arrested.

13 Q. Did you ever say to your friend Simo Zaric, "What are you trying

14 to do? These inflammatory statements are going to get us killed?" Did

15 you ever say that to your friend Simo Zaric?

16 MR. LAZAREVIC: I object. He already said that he didn't see

17 Simo Zaric.

18 MR. WEINER: At the radio station. I'm talking about the --

19 MR. LAZAREVIC: At the station. My colleague first should

20 establish whether he saw Simo Zaric after this broadcast, and then he

21 needs to -- this is how he had to find out whether he ever had a

22 possibility to speak to Simo about this.

23 MR. WEINER: He can say that he never saw Simo Zaric, so he never

24 had this discussion. Or maybe he can say he did say it to Simo Zaric.

25 We'll know in just one answer.

Page 18220

1 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, the witness can answer.

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Why, I couldn't say to Simo anything

3 because I didn't see him because he didn't come to visit me -- I mean, he

4 didn't come to the place where I was kept.


6 Q. Now, sir, you know that nowhere in that video does it indicate,

7 does it say in that video that Serb authorities are illegally arresting,

8 detaining, and mistreating prisoners. There's no statement like that in

9 the video. Isn't that correct?

10 A. It is, as far as I can remember.

11 Q. There is a statement in the video that Serb forces are illegally

12 arresting, detaining, and mistreating prisoners?

13 MR. LAZAREVIC: It was misinterpreted.

14 MR. WEINER: Okay, sorry about that.

15 Q. In fact, sir, in the video, Simo Zaric compliments the Serbian

16 police for doing a good job, the same Serbian police who were beating and

17 mistreating prisoners including yourself?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. And I just want to --

20 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Weiner, your time. You've gone beyond 15

21 minutes actually.

22 MR. WEINER: Can I wrap up or is that over now or what would you

23 like?

24 JUDGE MUMBA: Two minutes.

25 MR. WEINER: Two minutes. All right. Thank you very much, Your

Page 18221

1 Honour.

2 Q. All right, just very quickly. Just a few questions. We talked

3 about Naser Sejdic, and you indicated that he was your neighbour. Did he

4 say anything to you -- just checking, did you speak to you prior to your

5 testifying here? Did you have any conversation with him?

6 A. I didn't see him.

7 Q. All right. And you've had no discussion with him by telephone or

8 any other way?

9 A. No.

10 Q. Okay. And you indicated that you've known Simo Zaric for some 30

11 years.

12 A. No, not 30 years, but 15, 16 possibly.

13 Q. Okay. And sir, you indicated you have a business. Are you still

14 doing business in Samac? Does your business sell things or rent things or

15 have sales or business in Samac?

16 A. No, I don't have a shop in Samac. I don't have any businesses in

17 Samac. I'm self-employed in Slovenia, in Ljubljana.

18 Q. Do you do any sales to garages or gas stations in Samac?

19 A. No, no, no. No. Not in Samac. Across Bosnia, Croatia, and in

20 Slovenia, what I do is petrol stations, equipment for them.

21 Q. So you do no business at all in Samac? No business at all in

22 Samac?

23 JUDGE MUMBA: He already answer that had question, Mr. Weiner.

24 MR. WEINER: All right. Thank you.

25 Q. And the last question, sir, you still have relatives and family

Page 18222

1 that live in Samac?

2 A. I do.

3 MR. WEINER: Thank you very much. And I thank the Court for

4 giving me the extra minutes. Thank you.

5 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Krgovic.

6 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I only have a couple

7 of questions related to events mentioned by the Prosecutor in his

8 cross-examination.

9 Cross-examined by Mr. Krgovic:

10 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Tihic. My name is Mr. Krgovic, and I am

11 counsel for Miroslav Tadic, and on behalf of Mr. Tadic's defence, I will

12 ask you some questions in relation to some of the answers you gave the

13 Prosecutor. You testified that together with Ibrahim Salkic, you walked

14 in front of a car inviting people to hand over their weapons. Do you

15 remember saying that to the Prosecutor?

16 A. Yes, except it wasn't a car, it was a Praga.

17 Q. Praga. Were you with Salkic all the time, or did you ever

18 separate during that?

19 A. All that time, from the arrest until they put us back in the rooms

20 again.

21 Q. When you went with Salkic collecting weapons, did you see Miroslav

22 Tadic on that occasion, that day?

23 A. No.

24 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, sir. I have no further

25 questions, Your Honours.

Page 18223

1 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Pantelic.

2 MR. PANTELIC: Yes, Your Honour. I have a certain number of

3 questions.

4 Cross-examined by Mr. Pantelic:

5 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Mr. Tihic, I'm lawyer Pantelic,

6 and I'm counsel for Dr. Blagoje Simic. Very briefly, I have a few topics

7 I wish to cover.

8 Tell me, when you gave your statement to the Prosecution in 1998,

9 the Prosecutor didn't ask you, but I will ask you that now --

10 MR. WEINER: Objection. Sorry, did you say 1998? Sorry.

11 MR. PANTELIC: [Interpretation]

12 Q. Today, the Prosecutor also asked you about --

13 MR. PANTELIC: Mr. Weiner, your microphone is on.

14 Q. [Interpretation] So, when he asked you allegedly about people who

15 entered the municipal hall and so on and so forth, tell me, did you know

16 then, in 1992, that the seat of the Crisis Staff was in point in fact on

17 the premises of the heating plant, not in the municipal hall? Were you

18 aware of that fact?

19 A. I wasn't.

20 Q. And what the Prosecutor put the pressure on you, whether your

21 memory was better then or now, is it only your assumption that your people

22 were at the meeting or is it a fact?

23 MR. WEINER: Objection. Your Honour, I didn't put pressure on

24 him, and he's asking about his memory, was it an assumption. He has no

25 memory now, and we read in his prior statement as to his observations.

Page 18224

1 Those aren't assumptions.

2 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Pantelic, Mr. Weiner is right and it's

3 important to be polite to fellow counsel.

4 MR. PANTELIC: Yes, Your Honour, I do apologise. Maybe it was

5 kind of a language construction which was not proper. I do apologise once

6 again. It was not my intention to be unpolite to my learned friend.

7 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Tihic, so in the statement that was quoted to

8 you by the Prosecutor when he said Simic 1, Simic 2, Simic 3, and Simic 4,

9 and so on and so forth, that they attended those meetings which were also

10 attended by Antic and Cordasevic. Is it a fact that you stand by or is it

11 just a guess, a construct, that perhaps people had gone into the municipal

12 hall on some other business? Will you explain it to the Chamber?

13 A. As I went to work, Mr. Antic and Mr. Cordasevic during a formal

14 conversation said they had been to the Crisis Staff in the municipal hall,

15 and then as they talked between them, I learned more or less who had been

16 there. So that was that. So to this day, I don't know who was the member

17 of the Crisis Staff, that is, who were other members and who was what.

18 All I know is that the president was -- I mean, during the conversation,

19 that the president -- I learned that the president was Blagoje Simic.

20 MR. PANTELIC: I see. Your Honour, I believe it's time for our

21 break now.


23 --- Recess taken at 12.30 p.m.

24 --- On resuming at 12.51 p.m.

25 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Pantelic.

Page 18225

1 MR. PANTELIC: Yes, thank you.

2 Q. [Interpretation] And now, the last question related to this

3 subject before we went off the break, you and Cordasevic, et cetera, do

4 you remember that subject? So as we read this statement of yours, could

5 you please explain to the Trial Chamber now, did you see Antic and

6 Cordasevic entering the municipality building when you were going to the

7 police station? Is that the essence of your answer?

8 A. Yes.

9 MR. WEINER: I'd object to that, Your Honour.


11 MR. WEINER: Counsel is now confusing two different pieces of

12 testimony. The first thing -- and this is an improper area of

13 cross-examination. Number one, I asked this witness who he recalled

14 entering the building. All he recalled were two people, the two people he

15 worked with. With regard to civilian authorities, he had no memory or

16 recollection. I then attempted to refresh his recollection with his

17 statements. He still had no memory of who entered. The third thing I

18 tried to do is I asked him if his statements that he made were true. He

19 didn't recall what statements he had made. He said he told the truth to

20 the Office of the Prosecutor, but he had no memory of even the statements

21 he made here.

22 Now, counsel is trying to cross-examine. Did you mean this in

23 relation to the statements that you don't even recall? Do you mean that

24 in relation to the statements that you do not recall? He can't do that.

25 He has no memory. He has testified to that. The most he can say is: Did

Page 18226

1 you tell the truth? Did you have a better memory back then? Did you know

2 more details back then? Were you truthful? That's all we were able to

3 get out of him. But to question him as to the details of something he

4 doesn't remember is improper.

5 MR. PANTELIC: In fact, Your Honour, the -- to some extent, part

6 of this statement is confusing. It's double-barrelled, it is something

7 which is not clear, so that's why I want to clarify. I agree with my

8 learned friend absolutely with the position of the witness. We all heard

9 what he said. But in this particular statement, it is not clear whether

10 this witness saw Antic and Cordasevic entering a building or Simic 1, 2,

11 3, 4, or 5. That's the basis I would like to clarify because it was

12 raised through the questions of my learned friend, simply as that.

13 MR. WEINER: You can't clarify what you don't recall.

14 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. This is what Mr. Weiner said. That's

15 precisely -- he now cannot recall that statement.

16 MR. PANTELIC: I will go to the other topic, no problem.

17 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Tihic, let us cover another subject now.

18 When the Prosecutor asked you about the secondary school where you were

19 detained and whether there were any locals from the surrounding villages,

20 you mentioned Gornji Hasici, et cetera, and some other villages where the

21 detainees came from.

22 Tell me now, when talking to those people then or perhaps from

23 contacts that you had with the guards, do you have any knowledge and if

24 so, please tell the Trial Chamber, whether anybody mentioned the attack

25 against Serb soldiers in those villages at that time, that they had

Page 18227

1 sustained some casualties in May 1992, that they had been wounded or

2 killed or something like that? Do you remember any such thing?

3 A. No.

4 Q. Next, when you went to the exchange, did you say to this

5 investigator in Derventa that as you were travelling for the exchange, I

6 assume to Dragalic, that you saw a large number of Croat civilians in the

7 villages --

8 THE INTERPRETER: The villages were read out too fast for the

9 interpreters.

10 MR. WEINER: Object. That's outside the scope of my

11 cross-examination.

12 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, nothing was raise about the witness going to

13 the exchange.

14 MR. PANTELIC: Your Honour, yes, but this official note when this

15 witness gave his statement, so that was the basis of my question.

16 JUDGE MUMBA: It wasn't raised in cross-examination.

17 MR. PANTELIC: Okay.

18 Q. [Interpretation] Furthermore, Mr. Tihic, tell me, you are a media

19 person from the radio, you have experience in this area, the Prosecutor

20 asked you about certain expressions used during the war, derogatory terms,

21 Ustasha, Chetnik, et cetera. Please tell the Trial Chamber, what is your

22 personal knowledge in that period while you were able to follow these

23 programmes? Did all three sides use these, how should I put this, heavy

24 words in respect of the others?

25 A. I worked only on one side, so I could hear only one side.

Page 18228

1 Q. Since this is a neighbouring -- this is a border area, could other

2 radio stations be heard in Samac at the time?

3 A. Well, certainly, but I did not have the opportunity of hearing

4 anything like that.

5 Q. Tell me, what is your personal knowledge regarding this particular

6 subject just before the conflict broke out and in that period, did all

7 three parties in a way put down the other sides? I mean, I'm interested

8 in the vocabulary used in the media, on television, et cetera. Can you

9 tell the Trial Chamber.

10 A. A year and a half before the conflict broke out, I went from the

11 radio station to the power company. Ever since -- rather, until the

12 signing of the Dayton Peace Accords, I never turned on my radio.

13 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Pantelic, we've received sufficient evidence on

14 the rising tensions among the ethnic groups. So we don't need to ask this

15 witness any more.

16 MR. PANTELIC: I believe it's a not disputed fact that all three

17 parties during the war are -- make some references with regard to the

18 inflammatory speeches or words. I believe that it's not in dispute in

19 this case.

20 Q. [Interpretation] When you made your statement to the Prosecutor in

21 1998, you used the expression "Chetniks" in reference to the Serb side a

22 few times, didn't you?

23 A. Tell me, where?

24 Q. Well, on page 4 of your statement, you say: "While I was at the

25 radio station, Stevan Todorovic, Simo Zaric, and the other Chetniks would

Page 18229

1 visit and order me to play Chetnik music." So you also used these

2 expressions that are a bit harsh?

3 A. No.

4 Q. So these are not your words?

5 A. I mean, I said Chetniks because they themselves proclaimed

6 themselves as such because I was taping some songs recording them for

7 them, for some of these people who came up there, I mean. Those are the

8 kinds of songs that I recorded and rerecorded for them.

9 Q. The last question related to the subject that was raised by the

10 Prosecutor. These are the so-called propaganda lies, false news, and

11 things like that. You already referred to this, but do you remember what

12 were the news related to the number of Serb casualties, because there was

13 a war in Samac at the time? Do you remember the figures? What did the

14 news say? How many Serbs got killed?

15 A. A smaller number. A smaller number got killed. And that the

16 enemy had sustained more casualties. That's the way it was roughly.

17 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Pantelic, these details don't help us at all in

18 the case as to how many Serbs, how many Muslims were killed, how many.

19 There was an armed conflict; that is agreed by the parties.

20 MR. PANTELIC: If you'll allow me, Your Honour, because I almost

21 finished. My question was related to the theory, Prosecution theory, that

22 there was some kind of propaganda, war propaganda, and false news on the

23 radio station of Samac, including a number of killed or wounded Serbian

24 soldiers, et cetera, et cetera. So I just want to clarify that, whether

25 it was false propaganda or it was a fact. Simply as that because my

Page 18230

1 understanding is that was the Prosecution theory.

2 MR. WEINER: Your Honour, I have no objection to him asking about

3 propaganda, but it's not the Prosecution theory. It's his testimony.

4 It's the evidence that's here.

5 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Pantelic.

6 MR. PANTELIC: Just last question, and I'm finished, Your Honour.

7 Q. [Interpretation] Let's just clarify this one thing: The news said

8 that less Serbs were killed than in actual fact?

9 A. Yes, yes.

10 Q. And that more enemy soldiers were killed than in real life?

11 A. Well, this is an example. If five Serbs would get killed, then

12 they would say it was less, and then if 20 enemy soldiers would get

13 killed, then they would again change the figure to show that it was even

14 more.

15 MR. PANTELIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Tihic.

16 JUDGE MUMBA: Any re-examination, Mr. Pisarevic?

17 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

18 Re-examined by Mr. Pisarevic:

19 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Tihic, we need to clarify a few things, and I

20 hope that we will finish soon. You said here to the Prosecutor that

21 you've known Mr. Simo Zaric for some 15 or 16 years. Were you and

22 Mr. Zaric members of the hunting organisation called Fazan, pheasant, and

23 did you hunt together one group?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. What was the ethnic composition of your hunting group?

Page 18231

1 A. Mixed.

2 Q. In that group, was there a larger number of Croats and Muslims?

3 A. Vlado Sisic was there, too.

4 Q. You mean Vlado Sisic and Mr. Zaric?

5 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note, could Mr. Pisarevic please

6 speak into the microphone.

7 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation]

8 Q. So if I understood you correctly, in that hunting group of yours,

9 there were two Serbs, one was Simo Zaric and the other one was Vlado

10 Sisic?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Thank you. I'm sure you know that the 4th Detachment existed.

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Do you have any knowledge about Mr. Zaric before the conflict

15 calling upon members of all ethnic groups to respond to mobilisation of

16 the 4th Detachment of the Yugoslav People's Army?

17 A. Whether he called upon people to do that?

18 Q. Yes.

19 A. I don't know about that.

20 Q. Were there any obstacles in your path if you wished to join the

21 4th Detachment as a member of the Muslim people?

22 A. As far as I know, no.

23 Q. Did you ever have the opportunity of hearing Simo Zaric over the

24 media or at gatherings of citizens or at peace rallies or things like

25 that? I'm talking about before the war.

Page 18232

1 A. Yes, yes, before the war. I think that once there was this one

2 gathering over there near the committee, and that I was there once.

3 Q. All right.

4 A. Where this was talked about, that there should be reconciliation,

5 things like that, along those lines. I mean I can't really remember now

6 because it was such a long time ago.

7 Q. You remember that as far as this reconciliation is concerned and

8 the easing of tensions, easing of interethnic tensions, that Mr. Zaric

9 spoke about these things. Right?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. When you were arrested on the 18th, can you remember since you

12 mentioned here that Stevan Todorovic handed you and Ibela Salkic over to

13 the 4th Detachment? Do you remember who the persons were that you were

14 handed over to at the police station? Was it perhaps Cviko Tesic,

15 nicknamed Cvikan?

16 A. He was there, too.

17 Q. Thank you.

18 A. As far as I can remember, he didn't hand us over directly to

19 anyone. He was there, among other people, Cvikan, and he said that we

20 should go there as it was put --

21 Q. From the police station to the building of the local community

22 where the flag of the Red Cross was, did you cover that part of the road

23 on foot or by car?

24 A. On foot.

25 Q. And then, you went with the members of the 4th Detachment to

Page 18233

1 collect weapons. Isn't that right?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Just for the transcript, I'm going to repeat this. This person I

4 mentioned is Cviko Tesic nicknamed Cvikan. Is that right?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Let us clarify one matter, this vehicle that went behind you, it

7 was not a tank. Right?

8 A. No, it wasn't. It certainly wasn't.

9 Q. Thank you. Had it been a tank, you would have certainly known it

10 was a tank?

11 A. Well, at least I know that much.

12 Q. Thank you. Please, now, while you were collecting these weapons,

13 did you or any one of the members of the 4th Detachment enter anybody's

14 apartment or search anybody's apartment or house?

15 A. No. Whoever had weapons handed them over, and those who didn't,

16 didn't. So in fact, we only collected weapons.

17 Q. Did you pick out houses selectively in terms of this is a Muslim,

18 a Croat, a Serb house, this one we will take, this one we won't, or did

19 you actually systematically go from each house to another house or from a

20 flat to a flat?

21 A. Since we knew who -- the houses and who they belonged to in Samac,

22 we just went to -- on our way.

23 Q. You went to all of them?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Was any coercion applied in respect of the citizens in Samac? Did

Page 18234

1 anyone threaten anybody, any of your colleagues?

2 A. No, I wasn't in a position to, nor did they threaten. It was

3 simply -- I don't know if it was out of fear, but whoever had any weapons

4 handed them over.

5 Q. While collecting these weapons, did you see Mr. Simo Zaric?

6 A. No.

7 Q. You were explaining the encounter with Mr. Simo Zaric at the

8 police station. Could you describe this in more detail, how did this

9 encounter take place and how did Mr. Zaric treat you, in a friendly,

10 unfriendly way, or in a patronising way, as if meeting a subordinate? How

11 did this encounter take place? What did he tell you?

12 A. When we were going out of the office of Stevan Todorovic, I saw

13 him come out of the room on the left-hand side, and he took me to the --

14 this room on the left-hand side, and he told me: "Come, you should come

15 and see some of the documents and what they were doing." I asked what was

16 it all about. And then he showed me the documents allegedly found in the

17 desk of Naser Sejdic [as interpreted] and that --

18 Q. Just let me ask you, were you afraid of seeing Mr. Simo Zaric?

19 A. No, quite the contrary. I was happy to see him.

20 Q. Do you know that that Namik Suljic left Samac, and that he left

21 his wife and children there?

22 A. Yes, I heard that.

23 Q. I was cautioned here about a mistake in the name. The Naser

24 Sejdic's name is reflected here but we are talking about --

25 A. Yes, Namik Suljic.

Page 18235

1 Q. Do you know that Simo Zaric was angry in a way of Namik for having

2 left his children and wife because he was -- he had to take care of it?

3 MR. WEINER: I object. I object, number one, it's leading.

4 Number two, whether or not he's angry, how is that relevant to the issues

5 and I never got into any of Namik Suljic's personal situation, only as to

6 the threats that Simo Zaric made against him.

7 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] I withdraw this question, Your

8 Honours.

9 Q. So you were not afraid of Simo Zaric when he took you to see these

10 lists and when he told you all about it?

11 A. No.

12 JUDGE MUMBA: He already answered that question, Mr. Pisarevic.

13 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, yes, of course. Yes, Your

14 Honours.

15 Q. Did any of the detained persons that you had contacts with and so

16 on express any complaint concerning the treatment by Mr. Simo Zaric?

17 A. As far as I know, no. No one did.

18 Q. Do you know if someone said that the detention of people was

19 carried out by the military or the police or by those in the camouflage

20 uniforms?

21 A. The police and those in the camouflage uniforms.

22 Q. You and the other people who were detained, were you afraid of

23 Simo Zaric?

24 A. I said this already once. No.

25 Q. Well, you talked about yourself. I'm asking about the others.

Page 18236

1 A. No, no, they weren't. I know with reliability that they weren't

2 afraid.

3 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, I have no more

4 questions.

5 JUDGE MUMBA: I thought you were finished. That's why you kept on

6 repeating the questions.

7 Questioned by the Court:

8 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Mr. Tihic, I just have two small questions. You

9 mentioned that you were ordered by Stevan Todorovic to go with members of

10 the 4th Detachment and remove the Red Cross flag from the Red Cross

11 offices. I'm just wondering, have you any idea, do you know, in other

12 words, why you were ordered to remove the Red Cross flag; and once you

13 were done so, what did you and Mr. Salkic do with it?

14 A. From the very start, there must have been a mistake. We were not

15 ordered to take down the Red Cross flag because it seemed to bother

16 someone, but because we were supposed to take this Red Cross flag and hold

17 it and carry it front of the Praga as some sort of a mark or

18 identification and go on collecting weapons this way. So apart from

19 having those patches, that is armbands, we carried the Red Cross flag as

20 some sort of a recognition sign -- I don't know what.

21 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Okay, that makes a little bit more sense now.

22 And the second question actually concerns this Praga vehicle. Do

23 you remember whether this Praga had what are called caterpillars, like a

24 tank, or whether it simply had ordinary tyres like you would find on a

25 truck or a car?

Page 18237

1 A. It seems to me, as far as I can remember, that it had large tyres.

2 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Okay. Thank you very much.

3 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you, Mr. Tihic, for giving evidence. You are

4 now finished. You may leave the courtroom.

5 [The witness withdrew]

6 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Pantelic.

7 MR. PANTELIC: Yes, Your Honour, if you allow me just two very

8 brief issues I would like to address the Chamber. On Friday, last Friday,

9 the Trial Chamber made its ruling with regard to the testimony of

10 Mr. Cedomir Simic. After the withdrawal on the part of the Defence and

11 consent of the Prosecution, the Trial Chamber ruled that he should come

12 here and give his viva voce testimony, actually only cross-examination

13 limited to one hour.

14 Initially, when the Defence proposed to withdraw -- to withdraw

15 the witness, Mr. Simic, Cedomir Simic, our understanding was that in case

16 that the ruling of Trial Chamber would be opposite or other than the

17 proposal of the Defence, I believe that we should have a possibility to

18 have him in chief for a certain number of -- for an hour, maybe half an

19 hour or hour. So it was quite limited. My understanding was when we were

20 of the opinion to withdraw him, then that's conditionally if he will come,

21 then the previous ruling of the Trial Chamber will be in force, which

22 means that the Defence will have time to question him, and also

23 Prosecution for the cross-examination. I just want to clarify that with

24 the Chamber.

25 JUDGE MUMBA: No, Mr. Pantelic. When you withdrew him, you

Page 18238

1 withdrew him in total. It would have meant even the Rule 92 bis statement

2 being withdrawn. The Trial Chamber decided that his evidence was

3 essential, and decided that it should remain, his evidence should remain

4 on record, and then he can come for cross-examination only.

5 MR. PANTELIC: Yes, okay, Your Honour. I understand that. But

6 initially your ruling was that also Defence --

7 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, yes.

8 MR. PANTELIC: -- is entitled to have him for a certain number

9 of --

10 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, initially, yes, he was supposed to give viva

11 voce evidence.

12 MR. PANTELIC: In the interests of justice, maybe it would be

13 proper now to have -- because now we are at the beginning of the case I

14 would say in this particular issue I'm speaking, that the Defence would be

15 entitled in the interests of justice to have him here for

16 examination-in-chief, and then Prosecution will proceed with the

17 cross-examination.

18 JUDGE MUMBA: What you want is to reinstate the previous order?

19 MR. PANTELIC: That's correct, Your Honour. That's correct.

20 Because otherwise, we'll be -- it will not be fair to the Defence.

21 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Weiner.

22 MR. WEINER: Your Honour, we have no objection if counsel wants to

23 question their own witness, however the Court wants to do it, we have no

24 objection if counsel wants to do an examination-in-chief or whatever.

25 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, the Trial Chamber will give its ruling in due

Page 18239

1 course.

2 MR. PANTELIC: Thank you, Your Honour. And another matter I would

3 like to bring to the attention of this Trial Chamber, the fact with regard

4 to the travel arrangements for our demographic experts and two associates

5 of her. I do believe -- I mean, just to keep you informed because maybe

6 we should be in problem with a certain schedule problems, we shall know

7 that during this afternoon, that I believe that the registry will take all

8 necessary measures to obtain a visa for these three members of the team,

9 expert team to come here in The Hague.

10 JUDGE MUMBA: I thought that those matters normally are taken care

11 of by the registry. We don't need to discuss them here.

12 MR. PANTELIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

13 JUDGE MUMBA: The other thing the Trial Chamber wanted to ask you,

14 you presented the last batch of the 92 bis statements.

15 MR. PANTELIC: Yes, that's correct.

16 JUDGE MUMBA: You are no longer calling Drago Sego; Momir Talic,

17 for instance, you are supposed to take a statement; and Mr. Krajisnik. So

18 you've decided to withdraw these?

19 MR. PANTELIC: Did you mention Mr. Krajisnik, General Talic, and I

20 didn't catch the first one?

21 JUDGE MUMBA: Drago Sego.

22 MR. PANTELIC: Yes, Drago Sego.


24 MR. PANTELIC: I have to check that. It's not seems that it was

25 my client --

Page 18240

1 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, because the last statements that the Trial

2 Chamber did order that they be recorded during the week beginning 17th

3 February.

4 MR. PANTELIC: At the top of my head, I cannot recollect that

5 Drago Sego was my client. Maybe --

6 JUDGE MUMBA: Can you look into this.

7 MR. PANTELIC: I will check that and I will inform tomorrow

8 accordingly the Trial Chamber. Thank you, Your Honour. Thank you very

9 much.

10 JUDGE MUMBA: For Simo Zaric, there is supposed to be Witness X

11 and Witness Y and Ecimovic. Are these now dropped off the list?

12 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. We shall not be

13 calling those witnesses, and I can explain why we will not call them.

14 Witness X, we're not going to call that witness because after interviewing

15 him -- during our interviews with him, he requested that he be remunerated

16 for lost profits, and we could not discuss that so that we have given up

17 on him.

18 Mr. Ecimovic, likewise. He does not seem to be willing to come to

19 The Hague for reasons of his own. And Witness Amir Dervic will not be

20 called either to testify before this Honourable Court. So that we have

21 the witnesses under Rule 92. It is five witnesses altogether, and they

22 should testify this week, that is, they should testify before this

23 Honourable Court. Thank you.

24 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you.

25 Can we have the next witness.

Page 18241

1 Please make the solemn declaration.

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

3 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

4 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you. Please sit down.


6 [Witness answered through interpreter]

7 MR. LAZAREVIC: Your Honours, the redacted version of Witness 92

8 statement has just been provided for the Trial Chamber and for our

9 colleagues from the Prosecution.

10 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, I think it's important for us to use the

11 correct terms, that the statement now without the paragraphs that were

12 struck out.

13 Yes, you can proceed.

14 MR. LAZAREVIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

15 Examined by Mr. Lazarevic:

16 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, sir.

17 A. Good afternoon to you.

18 Q. Can you hear me all right?

19 A. Yes, I can.

20 Q. Could you just please come -- bring your chair closer to the

21 microphone so that we could hear you also. Thank you very much.

22 Sir, during your proofing, I already warned you that you should

23 wait with your answers, that is, to wait for me to finish the question,

24 then wait a couple of seconds before you start answering so as to avoid

25 speaking over one another and so that the interpreters could do their job

Page 18242

1 properly and so that everything that you say is recorded.

2 So have you understood me? Wait for me to finish the question,

3 count one or two seconds, and then start answering.

4 A. Very well, yes. I've understood that.

5 Q. Thank you. Now, will you say for the transcript your full name.

6 A. My name is Mihajlo Topolovac.

7 Q. Sir, in December 2002, you made a written statement and signed it

8 in front of the representatives of the registry of this Tribunal in

9 Bosanski Samac. Your statement has been tendered into evidence, and the

10 Trial Chamber has decided to hear you viva voce with regard to information

11 to some parts of your statement so that my questions will bear only on

12 what has been struck out from your statement, that is, deleted, and you

13 are to testify about that today.

14 The last thing you spoke about in your statement before the part

15 that was struck out was paragraph 24 of your statement. In that

16 paragraph, you speak about the situation -- about the state of affairs in

17 the police station, how the members of special units seized valuables from

18 the detainees, took them to houses and looted. Have you heard about the

19 beating of prisoners and that Stevan Todorovic hinted that you and others

20 should do things like that, but that you had refused?

21 So we are in the police station. The Trial Chamber already knows

22 how you got there and what you did there. Now, I'd like to ask you

23 something in relation to Mr. Zaric. Tell me, whilst you were in the

24 police station, did you see Mr. Zaric?

25 A. Yes, I did.

Page 18243

1 Q. Thank you very much. You know Mr. Zaric, don't you?

2 A. Yes, I do. And very well, because we were born in the same place

3 and we practically grew up there as I've already stated.

4 Q. Now tell me, how often did you have the opportunity to see

5 Mr. Zaric in the police station in Bosanski Samac?

6 A. Well, I can say that I saw Simo Zaric several times. Could have

7 been five or six times in the police station. I -- at that time, I was

8 also in the police station, and all that went on I could discuss it with

9 him. And he also claimed that all -- that something should be done about

10 things that were going on there.

11 Q. Thank you very much. Let us try to speed matters up, that is, I

12 will ask you questions, and just answer that. That is only what I ask you

13 and to try to go through this in this particular order. So will you tell

14 me, you told me that you saw him several times, it could have been five or

15 six. Now, tell me this: What uniform did Simo Zaric wear on those five

16 or six occasions when you saw him in the police station?

17 A. Simo had a military uniform, an olive-green-grey uniform. Later

18 on, I used to see him in a camouflage uniform.

19 Q. Thank you very much. Tell me only if you can answer with yes or

20 no, on those five or six occasions when you saw Simo Zaric, did you --

21 were you also able to talk with him? Just tell me yes or no.

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Tell me, during those conversations with Mr. Zaric, did you learn

24 how did it come about that he came to the police station, that he was in

25 the police station?

Page 18244

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Explain to the Court what is it that Mr. Zaric told you.

3 A. On that occasion, Zaric told me that he was in the police station

4 in order to collect information necessary and important for military

5 security and that that was due to the orders of Commander Stevan Nikolic

6 and Radovan Antic.

7 Q. Simo Zaric told you that on one of those occasions when you talked

8 with him, is it?

9 A. That's right.

10 Q. Tell me, who did Mr. Zaric usually go to see when he came to the

11 police station?

12 A. He went to see the inspectors in the Criminal Investigation

13 Department, Sarkanovic and the technician Zoran Jovanovic.

14 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter is sorry. The interpreter

15 missed the first name.

16 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation]

17 Q. Thank you very much. When you say "the Criminal Investigation

18 Department" --

19 MR. LAZAREVIC: [Previous translation continues] the

20 transcript

21 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, the interpreter said they didn't catch one of

22 the names, the first name.

23 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation]

24 Q. So, sir, in the transcript it says that he went to see

25 Sarkanovic. Will you give us Sarkanovic's first name, and the other two

Page 18245

1 persons that you mentioned in addition to Sarkanovic as members of the

2 Criminal Investigation Department?

3 A. Vladimir Sarkanovic, Milos Savic, Zoran Jovanovic.

4 Q. Thank you very much. Do you know if Mr. Zaric when in the police

5 station had interviews or an interview, whichever, with one of the

6 detained individuals?

7 A. Well, I remember how he -- that he interviewed Sulejman Tihic, the

8 then SDA president in Bosanski Samac, and some other individuals whom I

9 don't know.

10 Q. Thank you very much. Tell me, did -- during that time, during the

11 time that you were there, was Simo Zaric, to the best of your knowledge,

12 ever a member of the police? Was he, Mr. Zaric?

13 A. No, never. He was never a member of the police during the war.

14 And if you mean the time of the war, he was never a member or part of the

15 police.

16 Q. Thank you very much. That is what we are interested in, that is,

17 the time of war. Otherwise, we know that Mr. Zaric used to work for the

18 police during some years before the war, but that is not of relevance

19 here. So we are asking only about that time whilst you were in the

20 station and during the war, that is, your testimony is that he was never a

21 member of the police. Is that right?

22 A. Yes, it is.

23 Q. Tell me, did you see Simo Zaric beat, harass, insult any of the

24 detainees when you were there?

25 A. No. Simo Zaric is not such a person, nor was it his style. Simo

Page 18246

1 Zaric always conducted himself in accordance with social norms and things

2 that happened in the police station were just as odious to him as they

3 were to me.

4 Q. Thank you very much. Could Simo Zaric issue orders to the police?

5 A. No, Zaric couldn't do that. Stevan Todorovic was the only one who

6 could do that, as the chief of the police.

7 Q. Now that you mention Stevan Todorovic, can you describe -- explain

8 to us in your own words, what were the relations between Stevan Todorovic

9 and Simo Zaric? From what you could see, from what you could conclude or

10 perhaps what you heard from somebody else.

11 A. Well, you see, the two of them were on bad terms. To begin with,

12 because Simo as an individual and as a man always tried to do something

13 just, to do something proper. And in public, he always pointed out at the

14 bad traits of Stevan Todorovic, or perhaps there was something, I don't

15 know. Perhaps they had fallen out over some personal matter, but I don't

16 know that.

17 Q. Was Stevan Todorovic as chief of police superior to Zaric in any

18 way?

19 A. No, because Zaric was under the army command, and therefore part

20 of the JNA. So that Simo Zaric had no jurisdiction, had no competence, to

21 undertake anything in the police station.

22 Q. Thank you very much. But what I wanted was -- my question had to

23 do whether Stevan Todorovic could issue any orders to Simo Zaric?

24 A. No, he couldn't. And that was I think one of the reasons for the

25 bad terms on which the two of them were.

Page 18247

1 Q. I will ask you only one question more, sir, before we adjourn for

2 the day. In the police station, and we've already heard a certain number

3 of people and not such a small one, with regard to the way in which the

4 police station operated, but tell me who is it that decided who should be

5 arrested and kept under custody in the police station?

6 A. In relation to decisions concerning the arrest and detention of

7 individuals in the Detention Unit, that is, the police station, Stevan

8 Todorovic was the only one who was authorised to do that.

9 Q. Thank you very much, sir.

10 A. May I only add something?


12 MR. LAZAREVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, of course. Do that.

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] None of the other employees in the

14 security service had authority to do that. The chief of the police

15 station, and that is Stevan Todorovic, was the only one who had such

16 powers, that is, neither the commander nor the criminal investigation

17 inspectors nor any one of the policemen.

18 MR. LAZAREVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, sir.

19 JUDGE MUMBA: Very well. We will rise now and continue our

20 proceedings tomorrow.

21 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned

22 at 1.46 p.m., to be reconvened on Tuesday,

23 the 8th day of April, 2003,

24 at 9.00 a.m.