1 Thursday, 17 April 2003

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 [The accused Zaric not present]

5 --- Upon commencing at 9.01 a.m.

6 JUDGE MUMBA: Good morning. Please call the case.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning. Case number IT-95-9-T, the

8 Prosecutor versus Blagoje Simic, Miroslav Tadic and Simo Zaric.

9 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. The Trial Chamber has about two matters to

10 deal with. The first one is about the depositions that were recorded in

11 Belgrade. The Trial Chamber has decided to admit all the depositions

12 recorded in Belgrade into evidence and the depositions are also released

13 to the public subject to the redaction of any names of protected

14 witnesses.

15 The Trial Chamber has observed that most of the objections

16 recorded go to the weight to be attached to the evidence. Otherwise, the

17 Trial Chamber is able to distinguish facts from opinion and also able to

18 disregard matters that are not relevant. On the motion by the Prosecution

19 to call Mr. Marko Tubakovic who was one of the deponents in Belgrade, the

20 Trial Chamber would like to ask Mr. Pisarevic, counsel for Mr. Simo Zaric,

21 who had called him, whether he has any submissions to make.

22 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours.

23 At the time when we proposed this witness, we did that because we

24 wanted him to give evidence regard to a certain event. And I do not know

25 what is it that Mr. Tubakovic knows exactly. In principle, we do not

1 object to calling Mr. Tubakovic so that he could be heard here as a

2 witness but we need to let him know about this but I'll do that when I go

3 to Bosanski Samac one of these days. Well, that is all.

4 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you. The Trial Chamber has decided to grant

5 the motion to call Mr. Marko Tubakovic because it considers him an

6 important witness in view of some of the matters he was able to discuss

7 and that it is in the interests of justice to call him to adduce

8 additional evidence in this respect. Therefore, Mr. Pisarevic, as counsel

9 for Mr. Simo Zaric, whose witness Mr. Marko Tubakovic is, you are ordered

10 to call the witness as early as possible once the trial resumes, because

11 he is listed as Mr. Simo Zaric's witness and in keeping with Mr.

12 Simo Zaric's wishes, this witness should be heard before Mr. Simo Zaric

13 testifies. And he has to be heard in his presence. So the Trial Chamber

14 will appreciate it if you can make it -- the arrangements as quickly as

15 possible so that he is able to be heard soon after our proceedings resume

16 on the 28th of April.

17 There are no other matters for the Trial Chamber to deal with at

18 the moment. We shall therefore adjourn -- oh, I see counsel on their

19 feet. Yes, Mr. Pantelic?

20 MR. PANTELIC: My learned friend was quicker than me so I --

21 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Re?

22 MR. RE: It was in the relation to the tender of three outstanding

23 matters we have already flagged. The first is the English translation of

24 P173, that's the document I put into evidence during the evidence of

25 Mr. Omeranovic. I have the English translation here, if it's an

1 appropriate time to tender it into evidence.

2 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Can we just reconfirm the number?

3 THE REGISTRAR: This will be Exhibit P173. Thank you.

4 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, are there any other?

5 MR. RE: Yes. There is also some Red Cross, the ICRC documents

6 that I have provided to my learned friends several weeks ago. They were

7 in response to the Defence of Mr. Tadic tendering several documents from

8 the ICRC relating to prisoner exchange agreements. One of the documents

9 Mr. Lukic was objecting to so I'm not pressing that at the moment. I

10 understand there is no objection from counsel to the other four documents

11 which are the agreements between the parties brokered by the ICRC in

12 relation to the conduct of hostilities and the exchange of prisoners

13 during the indictment period. If there is no objection I tender the

14 following documents. Firstly an agreement between the President of

15 Bosnia, that's Mr. Izetbegovic, the SDS, the SDA, the HDZ and the SDP,

16 with the abbreviations, dated the 22nd of May, 1992, made in Geneva.

17 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.

18 MR. RE: Secondly is an agreement between --

19 JUDGE MUMBA: Can we deal with them one by one so that we number

20 them until complete?

21 MR. RE: Yes, that one is headed: "Agreement at the invitation of

22 the International Committee of the Red Cross relating to the 22nd of May,

23 1992."

24 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, can we have the number, please?

25 THE REGISTRAR: This will be Exhibit P176.

1 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. And the next one?

2 MR. RE: The next one is titled: "Agreement number 3," it's dated

3 the 6th of June, 1992, and it's called Bosnia-Herzegovina, ICRC plan of

4 action, an agreement between Mr. Izetbegovic's representative,

5 Mr. Karadzic's representative, Mr. Kalinic, a representative of the

6 Croatian Democratic Community, and liaison officer of the Croatian

7 Democratic Community. I tender that into evidence.

8 THE REGISTRAR: It will be Exhibit P177.

9 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, the next one?

10 MR. RE: Next one is headed: "Agreement on the release and

11 transfer of prisoners," it's dated the 1st of October, 1992, relating to

12 an agreement signed in Geneva on the 30th of September -- sorry an

13 agreement negotiated in Geneva on the 30th of September and 1st of

14 October, 1992, between a representative of Mr. Izetbegovic as president of

15 Bosnia; Mr. Kalinic, as representative of Mr. Karadzic of the Serbian

16 Democratic Party; Mr. Coric, as a representative of Mr. Boban of the

17 Croatian Democratic Community; Mr. Kurjak, as a representative of the

18 Party of Democratic Action, Mr. Popadic, as liaison officer of the Serbian

19 Democratic Party and Mr. Mujic, as liaison officer of the Presidency of

20 the Republic of Bosnia. I tender that document into evidence. Thank you.

21 THE REGISTRAR: This will be --

22 MR. RE: I'm sorry. I think that last one is sometimes referred

23 to as the Geneva agreement of the 1st of October, 1992.

24 THE REGISTRAR: This will be Exhibit P178.

25 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes?

1 MR. RE: The final Red Cross document or ICRC document is

2 entitled: "Guidelines on the exchange of prisoners made in Zagreb on the

3 24th of March, 1993." I tender that one into document as well -- sorry,

4 into evidence as well.

5 THE REGISTRAR: It will be Exhibit P179.

6 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Anything else?

7 MR. RE: Finally the third tender or category is, I think, last

8 week, I moved the admission into evidence of Mr. Zaric's book, I informed

9 Chamber's legal officer that we were no longer pressing the tender at that

10 point. We no longer press the tender of the entire book into evidence but

11 I move for the admission of the extracts which have been referred to in

12 evidence to date in relation to the transfer of the prisoners to Brcko on

13 the 26th of April, 1992, that is at pages 243 to 246 of the book in its

14 original edition, and the English translation at pages 175 to 178, and I

15 move to tender into evidence those extracts from the book.

16 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Mr. Pisarevic? Any objection?

17 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. We object to

18 the tender of documents in this manner, in the view of the Defence these

19 are fragments which may not be viewed or taken out of the context of the

20 book as a whole. If the Prosecutor's Office wishes to tender the book

21 into evidence, we shall object to that as well, for the simple reason that

22 Mr. Zaric had -- gave his statement and the Chamber has already been

23 informed that Mr. Zaric will be called to testify before this Chamber, and

24 I therefore think that this book and fragments from it in particular may

25 not constitute evidence or exhibit in this case before the Trial Chamber.

1 MR. PANTELIC: Your Honour, on the same issue, can I address the

2 Chamber respectfully?

3 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.

4 MR. PANTELIC: Defence for Mr. Blagoje Simic, we support the

5 request of the Prosecution with regard to the admission of the evidence,

6 actually the extract of the book or book in its entirety on the following

7 basis: It is not a personal note of defendant Zaric. It is not his

8 personal diary. It is not a personal document. It is a book published,

9 so it is in possession of the everyone who can buy this book. It's same

10 category as all other books and sources relevant to these proceedings,

11 such as commentary on Geneva Conventions, history in Bosnia, et cetera, et

12 cetera. It's simply a book which is accessible to all parties and in the

13 interest of justice we think that it might help this Trial Chamber.

14 Whether in form of extracts of the book, depending on the position of the

15 parties or their strategy, or in its entirety. So we firmly oppose the

16 position of Defence of Mr. Zaric. Thank you.

17 MR. RE: Your Honours may I briefly address on the evidentiary

18 basis for the tender which is simply this: Mr. Zaric's own counsel first

19 referred to that extract in -- I'm sorry, Mr. Pantelic for Mr. Simic first

20 referred to that particular extract in cross-examining Mr. Simeunovic who

21 is mentioned not in that extract but -- I can't recall at the moment, I

22 won't go into that. He mentioned it. Mr. Zaric's own counsel,

23 Mr. Lazarevic, then put to Mr. Simeunovic passages from the book, read

24 passages from the book in his re-examination of Mr. Simeunovic. I

25 referred to passages of the book, read passages, from that very same

1 extract within those pages to the witness, Mr. Topolovac without objection

2 from counsel for Mr. Zaric. I also yesterday referred or two days ago

3 referred to the same passages without reading them because of time

4 considerations of Colonel Nikolic, again without objection in relation to

5 the veracity -- or in relation to the reliability of the account. It's an

6 account of an accused, Mr. Zaric, published after he'd given his three

7 statements and as Mr. Pantelic correctly says, available to the world. If

8 the parties are going to refer to extracts, either paraphrasing or reading

9 them, those portions should be before the Trial Chamber so the Trial

10 Chamber can assess the totality of the extracts in their context.

11 Otherwise, it's just parties reading or quoting, and to date I stress

12 there has been no objection to that course which was in fact begun by Mr.

13 Zaric's own counsel. The Prosecution at the moment isn't pressing the

14 tender of the whole book. If that becomes an issue -- it may become an

15 issue during Mr. Zaric's own testimony. We don't push that at the moment.

16 Only the parts referred to, which in the Prosecution's submission are

17 relevant to evidence given and probative as a version of which witnesses

18 have been asked to comment upon.

19 [Trial Chamber confers]

20 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. The Trial Chamber will grant the Prosecution

21 submission and admit the extracts referred to by the Prosecution in

22 evidence.

23 THE REGISTRAR: It will be P180 and P180 ter, exhibits, thank you.

24 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Krgovic?

25 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I merely wish to

1 inform the Trial Chamber that our demographic experts have gone through

2 the material as granted by the decision of this Trial Chamber but

3 yesterday, the programme and the method were not copied. It will be done

4 today in the course of this day so that the disc with this copy will be as

5 the Prosecutor's Office has informed us, will be delivered to the Registry

6 today, later.

7 JUDGE MUMBA: Very well.

8 MR. PANTELIC: Yes, Your Honour, and this is the very last issue

9 that I would like to address. The Defence for Mr. Blagoje Simic was

10 informed two days before by the Defence of Mr. Krajisnik that the position

11 of Defence of Mr. Krajisnik is that Mr. Krajisnik will not be -- give

12 evidence here in form of 92 bis statement or in any other form, because it

13 might affect his position as a defendant in the other case before this

14 Tribunal. So that's the final position after all these months of

15 negotiation and contacts between two defence teams with regard to the

16 testimony of Mr. Krajisnik.

17 So I respectfully ask this Trial Chamber, in the interest of

18 justice, to grant another witness for Defence for Mr. Blagoje Simic

19 instead of Mr. Krajisnik, and I will tell you which person is that. It is

20 Dr. Stanko Pivasevic, one of the founders of the SDS branch in Samac in

21 years 1990, and then he was a president of SDS branch in Samac during all

22 these years, presently he's president of the SDS. The summary of his

23 testimony will cover work of SDS in Samac, activities, and details of the

24 acts of the accused, Mr. Blagoje Simic.

25 JUDGE MUMBA: Between which periods?

1 MR. PANTELIC: Between October, 1991 and December, 1993. We think

2 that it's relevant to the defence of Mr. Blagoje Simic since during the

3 Defence case specifically during the Defence case of Mr. Simo Zaric, many

4 issues were raised specifically in cross-examination of Prosecution -- of

5 Prosecutor's cross-examination of Mr. Zaric's witnesses, and specifically

6 the role of SDS politics, issues, discussions, et cetera. What I can tell

7 to this Trial Chamber that -- well, don't take me formally stick to this

8 fact but don't think that maybe one hour or hour and a half of testimony

9 of viva voce before this Trial Chamber will be necessary for this

10 particular witness, but as I said, I will prepare a summary, check on the

11 field whether he's available and he can be very, very soon be present in

12 The Hague, even after the -- after the -- our present adjournment.

13 MR. DI FAZIO: If Your Honours please, there is no objection to

14 this application on the part of the Prosecution.

15 [Trial Chamber and legal officer confer]

16 JUDGE MUMBA: The Trial Chamber wishes to make one observation,

17 Mr. Pantelic, that whereas Mr. Krajisnik was going to be limited to

18 discussing the variant A and B, this witness, whom you intend to call in

19 his place, appears to be actually expanding the areas which he's going to

20 discuss before the Trial Chamber. So the Trial Chamber would like to

21 point out that -- make sure that the summary you're going to present in

22 writing is as brief as possible, to cover only the salient features of the

23 defence of your client.

24 MR. PANTELIC: Absolutely, Your Honour.

25 JUDGE MUMBA: And that is important for the Prosecution to be able

1 to prepare for their cross-examination, and when -- so that when you call

2 him you don't go outside the summary that you provide.

3 MR. PANTELIC: Absolutely, Your Honour. I am very grateful to

4 your instructions. Among other things he will give testimony of variant A

5 and B, whether it was in discussion or not, whether this existed or not

6 within the scope of activities of the SDS in Samac and also the other

7 short topics, and I will do as soon as possible this summary and I will

8 forward it to the Prosecution. It will be very brief, I can assure you,

9 his presence here. Thank you, Your Honour.

10 JUDGE MUMBA: So can the Prosecution expect the summary before the

11 end of today?

12 MR. PANTELIC: Yes, Your Honour. I believe that we can do that.

13 Just a moment, can I have just a second to confer with my client.

14 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, you can go. You can approach him.

15 MR. PANTELIC: Yes, thank you.

16 Your Honour --

17 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Pantelic?

18 MR. PANTELIC: Yes, Your Honour, if I have -- if I will have

19 situation for ten minutes to confer with my client after the adjournment,

20 then I will get the proofing notes from him and then I will type it

21 immediately in the Defence counsel room and I will forward it today, this

22 morning, to Prosecution. If it's --

23 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, you will be allowed to have the time you need

24 before the accused is taken back to the detention unit.

25 MR. PANTELIC: Thank you very much.

1 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Di Fazio?

2 MR. DI FAZIO: If Your Honours please, in that regard the

3 Prosecution would appreciate it if Mr. Pantelic could provide us with the

4 full name, full accurate name of this witness, and if possible his date of

5 birth and if that's not possible today, as soon as possible

6 thereafterwards and then of course any other well known nicknames of this

7 particular individual. So that's important to us to be able to research

8 him.

9 If Your Honours please there is just one other matter that I want

10 to raise and that's the issue of sequence of witnesses upon our resumption

11 on the 28th of April and related to that is your order that Mitar Mitrovic

12 appear here on the Monday the 28th of April at 9.00 a.m.. What -- may I

13 ask what sequence of --

14 JUDGE MUMBA: Actually the time was rescheduled to the afternoon

15 of the 28th. The latest calendar we are starting at 14.15.

16 MR. DI FAZIO: Very well, on our resumption on the 28th in the

17 afternoon, I take it the Chamber anticipates that he will be the first

18 witness. We need to know this so that we can of course prepare our

19 cross-examinations and apportion subsequent witnesses amongst ourselves,

20 for a start. And secondly, if Your Honour pleases, may I will also ask

21 what procedure you actually envisage for this man? I take it -- am I

22 correct that the Chamber will question him and that he will then be open

23 to cross-examination by the parties?

24 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, yes. That will be the procedure. The Chamber

25 will examine him and then the Defence counsels will be given an

1 opportunity to cross-examine him and then the Prosecution.

2 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you.

3 JUDGE MUMBA: On the sequence of witnesses, Mr. Di Fazio, at the

4 moment it's not possible to decide specifically because of the health of

5 Mr. Simo Zaric.

6 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes. Thank you. If Your Honours please, I wonder

7 if there is some way that we might be able to resolve the matter before we

8 resume on the 28th?

9 JUDGE MUMBA: The legal officer will keep in touch because the

10 Trial Chamber is monitoring the health of Mr. Simo Zaric. So depending on

11 whether or not he will be able to attend the proceedings, the Trial

12 Chamber will be able to say which witnesses will come, the sequence of

13 witnesses. But it is important for the Prosecution is to know the

14 available witnesses and just prepare for all of them.

15 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you. Mr. Pantelic at least can, I think,

16 provide us with his intended sequence of witnesses and if he does that,

17 that would also be a very -- of considerable assistance to the Prosecution

18 and to the Chamber.

19 JUDGE MUMBA: That will be subject to their ability to get visas

20 and to travel and also there is one witness for Mr. Blagoje Simic whom

21 Mr. Simo Zaric wanted to be -- to hear, to be present. So all those

22 points must be taken into account.

23 MR. RE: Your Honours, there is one matter which I wish to raise.

24 It was in relation to the motion filed on the 11th of April by the

25 Prosecution in relation to the calling of Marko Tubakovic which Your

1 Honours granted this morning. We filed it confidentially only because the

2 testimony was given in closed session and had not been admitted. There

3 was no other reason we filed it confidentially. Perhaps the Trial Chamber

4 would like to look at the motion and if -- and assess whether it should

5 remain confidential. I don't -- I'm not saying on the spot.

6 JUDGE MUMBA: Because the Trial Chamber has already released

7 the -- all the depositions to the public, the only reason it was in closed

8 session was because of the security concerns at the time.

9 MR. RE: I only filed it because it had closed session written all

10 over the top of it.

11 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, that is understandable so there is no reason

12 for it to be -- continue to be in closed session, I mean to be filed

13 confidentially so the confidentiality is lifted.

14 MR. RE: May it please Your Honours.

15 [Trial Chamber confers]

16 JUDGE MUMBA: There being no other business, the Trial Chamber

17 will adjourn.

18 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at

19 9.39 a.m., to be reconvened on Monday,

20 the 28th day of April, 2003, at 2.15 p.m.

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