Page 1
1 Wednesday, 29th September, 1999
2 [Rule 77 Hearing]
3 [Open session]
4 [The accused entered court]
5 --- Upon commencing at 9.43 a.m.
6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Will the Registrar call the
7 case, please?
8 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours.
9 Case number IT-95-9-R77.
10 JUDGE ROBINSON: We will have the appearances
11 now beginning with the concerned party, the Office of
12 the Prosecutor.
13 MR. RYNEVELD: May it please the Court. Dirk
14 Ryneveld, and with me today are Nancy Paterson, Suzanne
15 Hayden, and Daniel Saxon, and our case manager, Andrew
16 Powell. We're prepared to proceed this morning.
17 JUDGE ROBINSON: Next we'll have the
18 appearances in respect of Mr. Avramovic and Milan
19 Simic.
20 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone to the counsel,
21 please.
22 MR. HAYNES: May it please Your Honours.
23 Peter Haynes representing both Avramovic and Simic, and
24 subject to the Trial Chamber's discretion, I would wish
25 to be assisted by Ms. Cmeric who sits next to me at the
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1 moment.
2 JUDGE ROBINSON: We will deal with that
3 matter later.
4 MR. HAYNES: Thank you very much.
5 JUDGE ROBINSON: Appearances in respect of
6 the other concerned parties.
7 MR. BRASHICH: Deyan Brashich for Todorovic
8 Defence, Your Honour.
9 MR. PANTELIC: Good morning, Your Honours.
10 Igor Pantelic on behalf of Mr. Miroslav Tadic.
11 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours,
12 attorney Novak Lukic co-counsel for Mr. Tadic.
13 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] Borislav
14 Pisarevic, defence attorney for Mr. Simo Zaric.
15 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Slobodan
16 Zecevic, co-counsel for Mr. Simic.
17 MR. O'SULLIVAN: Good morning, Your Honours.
18 Eugene O'Sullivan, co-counsel for Mr. Simic on the
19 trial indictment.
20 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you. I understand
21 that we'll have some applications, and it would be in
22 order to have these applications made in closed
23 session. So we will now move into closed session.
24 [Closed session]
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17 [Open session]
18 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Haynes, we'll start with
19 you in respect of the three other matters.
20 MR. HAYNES: Can I deal with the purely
21 administrative matter first, which I hope the Court
22 will grant, and that's the question of my assistance in
23 the Court during the proceedings? I have two clients
24 to deal with now, as you know, Mr. Simic and
25 Mr. Avramovic, and apart from anything else, I need the
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1 constant services of an interpreter.
2 JUDGE ROBINSON: We grant that.
3 MR. HAYNES: Thank you very much.
4 I think the only outstanding matter,
5 therefore, is the request for really what is guidance
6 from the Trial Chamber as to the scope of the evidence
7 it is prepared to hear from Mr. Agnes.
8 The Trial Chamber, of course, in effect, and
9 I use the term loosely, formulated the charges in this
10 case on the 7th of July, and those charges were based
11 upon the evidence contained in Mr. Agnes' first four
12 witness statements. He has, since then, made a further
13 witness statement which goes, it seems, way beyond the
14 scope of the allegations formulated by the Trial
15 Chamber on the 7th of July. It purports to include
16 fresh allegations made against other lawyers not before
17 the Tribunal and not named in any of the charges. It
18 purports to broaden the scope of the alleged contempt
19 into one not only of, as it were, interference with him
20 directly but the use of him as a conduit to get in
21 touch with further potential witnesses. The
22 application is really one for guidance as to what sort
23 of evidence he should be permitted to give.
24 But perhaps more seriously, as I understand
25 the position, and you'll forgive me, I'm not in
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1 possession of all the briefs and files relating to the
2 trial indictment, Mr. Agnes is likely now to be a
3 witness who is heard by the Tribunal on the trial
4 indictment, which is unlikely to take place, as I
5 understand the position, until sometime next year, and
6 the Tribunal, in due course, is going to have to form a
7 view in relation to his credibility in respect of the
8 more serious matters he might give evidence about in
9 due course. That evidence affects not only Mr. Simic
10 but also other accused, who I imagine are not proposing
11 to embark upon cross-examination with him in these
12 proceedings, about some allegations he makes in 1992
13 and 1993, and it's my submission that the Trial
14 Chamber, having taken the trouble to formulate detailed
15 allegations which it has called upon Mr. Simic and his
16 counsel to meet under the provisions of Rule 77(F),
17 that the evidence that the Trial Chamber receives
18 should be limited to the question of proving or
19 otherwise those particular allegations.
20 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Haynes, the matters that
21 you're raising, are they not matters that relate to the
22 admissibility of evidence and which it would be more
23 timely and appropriate to have them dealt with as the
24 evidence is raised? When the evidence is raised, the
25 Trial Chamber would rule on its admissibility, if
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1 requested.
2 MR. HAYNES: Yes, but it's the special nature
3 of these proceedings. You will have seen, in a
4 skeleton argument that I have filed with the Trial
5 Chamber, that it is one of my primary contentions that
6 the only parties to contempt proceedings are the Court
7 and the contemner, but of course I accept that within
8 the provisions of Rule 77, the Tribunal is entitled to
9 set a procedure by which it hears contempt
10 proceedings.
11 The Trial Chamber, in relation to these
12 proceedings, has elected to set a procedure in which it
13 invites the Prosecutor to call witnesses. Whilst I'm
14 perfectly prepared to jump up and down during the
15 course of Mr. Agnes' evidence and object to questions
16 asked by the Prosecutor, I thought it would be more
17 expedient if I put everybody on notice of the fact,
18 prior to the hearing or the calling of Mr. Agnes by the
19 Prosecutor, that there will be objection taken to the
20 scope of the evidence he is permitted to give.
21 If Your Honours would prefer me to make
22 objection on the hoof, as it were, as each question is
23 asked, then I am prepared to do that. But my primary
24 contention is that this Court is involved -- this Trial
25 Chamber is involved in specific allegations of
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1 contempt, and the evidence that it receives should be
2 limited to those specific allegations.
3 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you.
4 Mr. Ryneveld or Ms. Paterson.
5 MS. PATERSON: Your Honour, I will respond to
6 this, as I will be the one putting the questions to
7 Mr. Agnes.
8 I would say that the Prosecution basically
9 has no objection to the issues raised by Mr. Haynes.
10 It was our intention all along to limit the questioning
11 of Mr. Agnes strictly to the matters that are pertinent
12 to this hearing.
13 Mr. Agnes himself feels strongly that he is
14 here to give testimony about his interaction with
15 Mr. Avramovic and Mr. Simic, and he intends to limit
16 it, as much as possible, to those issues.
17 In certain situations, simply to put things
18 in context, some brief references will have to be made
19 to some events that happened in 1992, but he does not
20 intend to go into any great detail and does not intend
21 to raise any issues that would in any way implicate the
22 other accused in this case, in this proceeding.
23 So I don't anticipate there will really be
24 any significant problems. We had already planned to
25 approach this in a way Mr. Haynes suggested.
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1 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you. Any submissions
2 from any of the other concerned parties?
3 The Trial Chamber's ruling on this matter is
4 that questions of admissibility in relation to Witness
5 Agnes' evidence will be taken in relation to specific
6 aspects of his evidence as it is given.
7 I want now to turn to a number of other
8 matters that have to be dealt with before we proceed
9 further.
10 [Trial Chamber confers]
11 JUDGE ROBINSON: There's just one matter that
12 I wish to raise, and it is in respect of the filing
13 relating to access to the Registry files.
14 We have seen the response from the
15 Prosecutor, and the Chamber's ruling would be,
16 Mr. Ryneveld, that in order for us to provide a
17 definitive ruling on this matter, we would need the
18 Prosecutor to identify with greater specificity two
19 things: First, the purpose to be served by access to
20 the files; secondly, the time frame that is involved.
21 The time frame that is now suggested, in the Trial
22 Chamber's view, is too wide, and we would want you to
23 do that as quickly as possible so that we can determine
24 this matter.
25 We will now proceed to have the allegations
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1 read.
2 Madam Registrar?
3 THE REGISTRAR:
4 (1) Milan Simic and Branislav Avramovic are
5 called before the Trial Chamber to
6 respond to the allegations.
7 (i) with regard to Milan Simic, being an
8 accused person, that
9 (A) between July and September 1998, he
10 knowingly and wilfully interfered with
11 the International Tribunal's
12 administration of justice, by
13 (a) making threats by telephone to a
14 potential witness described in the
15 Request as Mr. "Agnes," and
16 (b) being in a black motor vehicle
17 driven to the house of Mr. "Agnes"
18 between 2 and 3 a.m., and on one
19 occasion firing a shot in the air.
20 Particulars of paragraph (a):
21 Milan Simic is alleged to have committed
22 these acts individually or by acting in
23 concert with other persons or by aiding and
24 abetting in their commission. The threats
25 were made at different times, to the effect
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1 that Mr. "Agnes" had to testify in favour of
2 an unidentified defendant in the Bosanski
3 Samac case, and making statements to
4 Mr. "Agnes" to the effect that Mr. "Agnes"
5 had nobody else but [name deleted] and if he
6 had ever thought how would he feel if
7 something happened to them.
8 Particulars of paragraph (b):
9 Milan Simic is alleged to have committed
10 these acts individually or by acting in
11 concert with other persons or by aiding and
12 abetting in their commission.
13 (B) between January and May 1999, he offered
14 a bribe to and interfered with a potential
15 witness described in the Request as
16 Mr. "Agnes," with the intention that
17 Mr. "Agnes" should give false evidence in
18 favour of himself, telling Mr. "Agnes" that
19 Mr. "Agnes" would be given money by him or by
20 another person on his behalf for his needs,
21 and an apartment and employment after he had
22 given evidence in the trial.
23 Particulars:
24 Milan Simic is alleged to have committed
25 these acts individually or by acting in
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1 concert with other persons, including
2 Branislav Avramovic, or by aiding and
3 abetting in their commission.
4 (ii) with regard to Branislav Avramovic,
5 being counsel for Milan Simic, that
6 (A) between July and September 1998, he
7 knowingly and wilfully interfered with the
8 International Tribunal's administration of
9 justice, by -
10 (a) telling a potential witness described in
11 the Request as Mr. "Agnes" that -
12 (1) he should testify only in favour of
13 his client, Milan Simic, and
14 (2) Mr. "Agnes" had to say, falsely,
15 that Milan Simic was not present at
16 the school alleged by the
17 Prosecution to have been a
18 detention camp and in which
19 prisoners were beaten;
20 (b) falsely recording the version given by
21 Mr. "Agnes" so as to exculpate his client,
22 Milan Simic;
23 (c) coaching Mr. "Agnes" to tell that false
24 version, rehearsing it with a tape recorder;
25 (d) making threats by telephone to
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1 Mr. "Agnes", and
2 (e) being in a black motor vehicle driven to
3 the house of Mr. "Agnes" between 2 and
4 3 a.m., and on one occasion firing a shot in
5 the air.
6 Particulars of paragraphs (a), (b) and (c):
7 Branislav Avramovic is alleged to have
8 committed these acts individually or by
9 acting in concert with other persons,
10 including another man known only as the
11 lawyer from Doboj, or by aiding and abetting
12 in their commission.
13 Particulars of paragraphs (d) and (e):
14 Branislav Avramovic is alleged to have
15 committed these acts individually or by
16 acting in concert with other persons or by
17 aiding and abetting in their commission. The
18 threats were made at different times, to the
19 effect that Mr. "Agnes" had to testify in
20 favour of an unidentified defendant in the
21 Bosanski Samac case, and making statements to
22 Mr. "Agnes" to the effect that Mr. "Agnes"
23 had nobody else but [name deleted] and if he
24 had ever thought how would he feel if
25 something happened to them.
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1 (B) between January and May 1999, he offered
2 a bribe to and interfered with a potential
3 witness described in the Request as
4 Mr. "Agnes," with the intention that
5 Mr. "Agnes" should give false evidence in
6 favour of his client, Milan Simic, by
7 (a) telling Mr. "Agnes" in January that -
8 (1) he would be rehearsed further in
9 the false version throughout the
10 month of May, five days a week; and
11 (2) he would be given money for his
12 needs by Milan Simic, and an
13 apartment after he had given
14 evidence in the trial;
15 (b) telling Mr. "Agnes" in February that he was
16 to say, falsely, that Milan Simic was not at
17 the school alleged by the Prosecution to have
18 been a detention camp and in which prisoners
19 were beaten;
20 (c) showing Mr. "Agnes" in March a list with
21 about 160 names on it, and telling him that
22 the rehearsal (in May) would include looking
23 through the list and falsely marking off the
24 names of those who had been at the school;
25 (d) telling Mr. "Agnes" in April that he
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1 would be given employment after he had given
2 evidence in the trial; and
3 (e) telling Mr. "Agnes" in May that he would
4 see the next day about the money to be paid
5 to Mr. "Agnes".
6 Particulars of paragraphs (a) and (d):
7 Branislav Avramovic is alleged to have
8 committed these acts individually or by
9 acting in concert with other persons,
10 including Milan Simic and another man whose
11 identity is unknown, or by aiding and
12 abetting in their commission.
13 Particulars of paragraphs (b), (c) and (e):
14 Branislav Avramovic is alleged to have
15 committed these acts individually.
16 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Branislav Avramovic, do
17 you accept the allegations made against you?
18 MR. AVRAMOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours,
19 I do not accept any of the allegations presented in
20 this Trial Chamber's order.
21 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Simic.
22 THE ACCUSED SIMIC: [Interpretation] I do not
23 accept any of the allegations.
24 JUDGE ROBINSON: We will now proceed with the
25 first witness. That will be a closed session and the
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1 arrangements will have been made.
2 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, Your Honour.
3 JUDGE ROBINSON: We will now proceed with the
4 first witness. That will be in closed session and the
5 arrangements will have to be made. I understand that
6 some 10 or 15 minutes will be needed for the
7 arrangements. We will take an adjournment for ten
8 minutes.
9 --- Recess taken at 10.30 a.m.
10 --- On resuming at 10.55 a.m.
11 [Closed session]
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23 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at
24 12.40 p.m., to be reconvened on
25 Thursday, the 30th day of September,
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