Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 519

1 Monday, 29th November, 1999

2 [Rule 77 hearing]

3 [Open session]

4 [The accused entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 2.35 p.m.

6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Will the Registrar call the

7 case, please.

8 THE REGISTRAR: Good afternoon, Your

9 Honours. Case number IT-95-9-R77.

10 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Haynes, we are

11 continuing with the presentation of your case. Your

12 next witness?

13 MR. HAYNES: Your Honour, I call Goran

14 Neskovic.

15 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours?


17 MR. ZECEVIC: May I be allowed to address the

18 Chamber before the witness is brought in? In

19 accordance with the ruling of the Trial Chamber of the

20 5th of November, on a closed session, during the

21 testimony of Mr. Vukovic, as the former Defence counsel

22 of Mr. Milan Simic, I would request that the validity

23 of that decision be expanded to include Mr. Neskovic as

24 a former attorney of Mr. Simic, and Mr. Avramovic, a

25 former Defence counsel, too, because it is normal to

Page 520

1 expect the questions to affect the attorney/client

2 privilege, and for this reason it would be better to

3 hold it in closed session.

4 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Ryneveld?

5 MR. RYNEVELD: Yes, Your Honours. Last day,

6 when this matter was raised with respect to

7 Mr. Vukovic, I anticipated, in fact, that the type of

8 questioning would well be along the lines that counsel

9 was concerned about, and accordingly the Prosecution

10 took no position with respect to the application.

11 At the end of the proceedings, it was clear

12 that there was nothing whatsoever about the questioning

13 in chief and/or in cross which could possibly have

14 warranted the concern expressed by counsel, in my

15 respectful view, and accordingly, I would like to make

16 a submission that on this occasion, that we proceed in

17 open session until such time, perhaps, as an issue

18 arises, which would only be known to the Defence as to

19 whether or not the issue arises, and then perhaps

20 submissions could be made on the point. But to simply

21 give a blanket closed session to these proceedings

22 would, in my respectful view, be contrary to an earlier

23 ruling made by this Chamber concerning the balance of

24 the proceedings being in open session except for the

25 evidence of Mr. Agnes.

Page 521

1 Those are my submissions.

2 [Trial chamber confers]

3 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, we think there is merit

4 in Mr. Ryneveld's submission. Proceedings are, by the

5 Rules and by the Statute, to take place in open

6 session. I think all interests can be protected in the

7 manner suggested by Mr. Ryneveld. When a point comes

8 up which involves some exposure of the witness in the

9 manner raised by Defence counsel, then an application

10 can be made for us to go into closed session, but I

11 think we must proceed in open session until such time.

12 [The witness entered court]

13 JUDGE ROBINSON: Let the witness make the

14 solemn declaration.

15 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will

16 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the

17 truth.


19 [Witness answered through interpreter]

20 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Haynes?

21 Examined by Mr. Haynes:

22 Q. Is your full name Goran Neskovic?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. I think you were born on the 21st of April of

25 1955, and you are thus 44 years of age; is that

Page 522

1 correct?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And I think you currently live in Doboj?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. So far as your professional career is

6 concerned, were you a judge of the municipal court of

7 Teslic between 1978 and 1985?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Did you work for the office of the public

10 prosecutor between 1985 and 1992?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Between 1992 and 1993, were you president of

13 the high court of Doboj?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And between 1993 and 1995, an assistant

16 minister of justice for the Republika Srpska?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Between 1995 and 1998, were you a deputy

19 minister and also the liaison officer between the

20 Office of the Prosecutor here in The Hague and the

21 government of Republika Srpska?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. I want to ask you about the 28th of September

24 of 1998. Do you remember where you were on the 28th of

25 September of 1998?

Page 523

1 A. On the 28th of September, 1998, I was in

2 Belgrade.

3 Q. Did you leave Belgrade that day?

4 A. No, that day I was working on my visa, which

5 I needed to travel to Holland, and in the afternoon I

6 did leave Belgrade to go to Sremska Mitrovica.

7 Q. With whom did you go to Sremska Mitrovica?

8 A. I went to Sremska Mitrovica in the afternoon

9 with Mr. Avramovic, at his request. This is about an

10 hour's drive from Belgrade to Mitrovica. We went to a

11 village near Mitrovica.

12 Q. Do you remember the name of the village?

13 A. No.

14 Q. When you got to the village, where did you go

15 to?

16 A. In that village, we stopped in front of a

17 house, and we were welcomed there by two men. One of

18 them was a young man, the other an older man; I think

19 he was fair, quite heavily built. And we were sitting

20 at the terrace of that house.

21 Q. So far as you understood, what was the

22 purpose of your going there?

23 A. Mr. Avramovic told me that he needed to talk

24 to a witness in that village, but I didn't know that

25 witness.

Page 524

1 Q. How long were you at the house in total?

2 A. It is hard to say exactly, but about one hour

3 and 15 minutes, or one hour 10 minutes.

4 Q. And when you first arrived there, you say you

5 were welcomed. Where did you initially sit at the

6 house when you arrived there?

7 A. We sat on the terrace, on the kind of porch.

8 You go up a few steps. And we spent some time there

9 and we talked about some private matters. Since the

10 elderly man and I myself learnt through conversation

11 that we had a common acquaintance, so we spoke about

12 him.

13 Then there was quite a lot of talk about the

14 arrest of Stevan Todorovic, who had been arrested the

15 previous day, so that all the media in Yugoslavia and

16 Republika Srpska had published this item. So those

17 were the topics discussed.

18 Q. How many people were sitting on the terrace?

19 A. A total of four. Myself, Avramovic and these

20 two men.

21 Q. Did all four remain on the terrace when you

22 were at the house?

23 A. No. We sat there for a while on the terrace,

24 and after that Mr. Avramovic and this younger man went

25 into the sitting room that you go into from the

Page 525

1 terrace. And they sat at a dining table. And I stayed

2 on the terrace with this fair man, as the subject

3 didn't interest me, as I was about to leave to defend

4 Stevan Todorovic.

5 Q. How long did you remain on the terrace?

6 A. Maybe about half an hour. I know that when

7 we were about to leave, because I was in a hurry, I sat

8 next to Avramovic for about 10 minutes and asked him

9 that we should hurry up and leave.

10 Q. Did you go inside the house?

11 A. Yes. Yes. The last ten minutes I went in to

12 ask him to leave.

13 Q. When you went inside, can you tell us what

14 Mr. Avramovic and the young man were doing?

15 A. They were briefly discussing Samac, and I

16 think they also mentioned Brkco. But I didn't really

17 pay any attention, so I can't really remember.

18 Q. Did you see a tape recorder in the room when

19 you went into the house?

20 A. No. No. I don't remember. I saw some files

21 from the Prosecution in front of them, binders.

22 Q. While you were in the company of the younger

23 man, that's before he went in and when you went in at

24 the end, what was the atmosphere of the conversation

25 that was going on between him and Mr. Avramovic?

Page 526

1 A. Normal atmosphere. They knew one another.

2 Q. Did you yourself do anything to intimidate or

3 frighten this young man while you were at the house?

4 A. No. No.

5 Q. And did you ever see that young man again?

6 A. No.

7 Q. Thank you, Mr. Neskovic.

8 JUDGE ROBINSON: Is that Ms. Hayden?

9 MS. HAYDEN: Thank you, Your Honour.

10 Cross-examined by Ms. Hayden:

11 Q. Thank you, Your Honours.

12 Good afternoon, sir, my name is Suzanne

13 Hayden. I have a few questions for you.

14 You indicated that you never saw this young

15 man again, but had you ever seen him before?

16 A. No, never.

17 Q. That was the first time that you had ever

18 seen Mr. Agnes?

19 A. The first time.

20 Q. Have you ever worked with Mr. Avramovic on

21 this case, with the exception of your involvement with

22 Mr. Agnes?

23 A. Yes. I worked for two months on the case,

24 for two months, in July and August -- no, August and

25 September. Until the 29th of September.

Page 527

1 Q. And you were working in a partnership of some

2 sort with Mr. Avramovic? Were you working in some sort

3 of partnership with Mr. Avramovic during this time?

4 A. You mean did we have a joint office? You

5 mean on the case? I was the investigator on this case,

6 and that's how we worked together.

7 Q. And you were investigating all of the

8 individuals involved; is that correct?

9 A. No. In August and September, in the case

10 against Milan Simic I was the investigator. And if you

11 are thinking of a partnership in the form of an office,

12 I have my own office in Doboj, and that is where I

13 worked.

14 Q. Did you work at some point with Mr. Avramovic

15 on behalf of Blagoje Simic?

16 A. Oh, no. At the request of Blagoje Simic, the

17 request was that two attorneys request to visit The

18 Hague Tribunal in connection with his indictment. This

19 was in August. And that was just one act that took one

20 day.

21 Q. Thank you. Have you read Mr. Agnes'

22 statements surrounding this hearing?

23 A. The statements he made in Court here?

24 Q. That's correct.

25 A. No.

Page 528

1 Q. Have you read the statements that were

2 submitted to the Court, sworn statements?

3 A. No.

4 Q. Have you reviewed the statement you wrote on

5 behalf of Mr. Simic?

6 A. Yes. I made a statement on the 18th of July,

7 this year, to Mr. Avramovic. That statement, yes. I

8 read it. It is my statement.

9 Q. And what else have you reviewed before coming

10 here today?

11 A. I took notes and I reviewed in specific

12 terms, I can show you, my passport to show that the

13 visa was issued on the 28th. And that is how I can

14 remember the event. This is my old passport. Because

15 the previous night I hadn't been assigned as counsel

16 for Stevan Todorovic.

17 Q. You misunderstand me. What I am asking you

18 is in preparation to come here today to talk about

19 anything, or to know about this case, did you review

20 anything other than your passport?

21 A. I reviewed my statement and my notes, the

22 notes I had taken to remind myself.

23 Q. And these were the notes that you made

24 contemporaneously with your interview on September

25 28th; is that what you are saying?

Page 529

1 A. No. No. No, notes that I took to remind

2 myself of the course of events. After that interview,

3 these things I have just told you, these are my own

4 personal notes on a piece of paper.

5 Q. When did you make the notes?

6 A. This month.

7 Q. I'm sorry, I couldn't hear that.

8 A. In July. I'm sorry. In July. Three months

9 ago I made those notes. The 28th was a Monday, that on

10 that day I was picking up my visa; that the 27th was a

11 Sunday, I remember speaking to Stevan Todorovic in the

12 evening; that on the 26th, in the evening, Stevan was

13 arrested. I remember on that day that I was in Banja

14 Luka. Those were the notes that I took down to remind

15 myself.

16 Q. Let me ask you about your duties as an

17 investigator for Mr. Avramovic. Did you take notes

18 while you were being an investigator?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Did you make notes of the meeting on

21 September 28th?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And did you make those notes ever again?

24 A. No. No. As investigator, I regularly

25 reviewed my notes, both in September and in August,

Page 530

1 because as an investigator I sought to take down notes

2 as reminder of the event. And about 10 days prior to

3 this visit I reviewed my notes and tried to compile a

4 statement about the overall situation in Samac.

5 Q. When was it that you compiled the overall

6 statement about what happened in Samac that you just

7 described? When was that?

8 A. I made the statement on the 18th of July.

9 Q. Okay. Let me ask you this. You just said,

10 "And about 10 days prior to this visit I reviewed my

11 notes and tried to compile a statement." Ten days

12 prior to what visit is this visit?

13 A. Oh, I see. I understand what you are asking

14 me. We were in Mitrovica on the 28th of September. As

15 an investigator, in September I was constantly

16 reviewing Avramovic's notes. I reviewed his notes

17 precisely regarding the circumstances of what this

18 witness had told him before that. You don't understand

19 me?

20 Q. Let me go on just a little bit. And we'll

21 come back to that. Since you have reviewed your

22 statement, let me ask you a few questions about it. In

23 your statement you said that Mr. Avramovic informed you

24 on the necessity for attainment of a conversation with

25 Mr. Agnes. Why was it necessary?

Page 531

1 A. Yes. He didn't explain why he needed to talk

2 to him. He just told me that he needed to talk to him,

3 because he had talked to him already prior to that.

4 Q. So you had no conversation with Mr. Avramovic

5 about why you were going on a trip when you were trying

6 to get ready to go to The Hague to represent another

7 client?

8 A. He asked me to accompany him to Mitrovica so

9 he wouldn't go alone, because he needed to talk to a

10 witness. That was the only reason why we went there.

11 My reason, was my reason for going there.

12 Q. But the fact of the matter is, according to

13 your testimony, that you were busy getting ready, you

14 had no interest in going, and you didn't even sit and

15 talk to this witness?

16 A. That is correct. We just spoke about

17 personal matters or general matters, the arrest of

18 Stevan Todorovic, but not about the case. I didn't

19 discuss that with him.

20 Q. Could you be a little more specific about who

21 "him" is? Are you talking about Mr. Agnes? Are you

22 talking about the blond man? Are you talking about

23 Mr. Avramovic, that you didn't discuss any details

24 with?

25 A. I'm talking about the younger man, who is

Page 532

1 called Agnes.

2 Q. You had no -- let me just be clear on this:

3 You had no substantive conversation whatsoever with

4 Mr. Agnes during this meeting; is that correct?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Were you aware that he had been in Samac,

7 detained in Samac, Mr. Agnes?

8 A. No. I assumed he had been, because I had

9 read Avramovic's previous notes.

10 Q. And yet your testimony is today that this

11 witness didn't interest you, you didn't pay attention,

12 you had no interest, even though he was a witness that

13 might have information about the client you were going

14 to The Hague for tomorrow?

15 A. No, I don't know at all that he had any

16 information about my client. I didn't know that. I

17 wasn't aware of it.

18 Q. My point precisely. So if you didn't know

19 that he had information about your client, but you knew

20 from Mr. Avramovic that he had information about a

21 co-defendant, wouldn't it normally be your practice to

22 ask a few questions to see if this could be a witness

23 that was helpful to you?

24 A. No. I didn't -- it never even occurred to me

25 that I could use him as a witness.

Page 533

1 Q. Well, in your statement, you seem to have

2 recalled that he was a Muslim and had been in Samac

3 during the war; now, did you forget that today?

4 A. Quite simply, I didn't like to use the word

5 "Muslim" in front of the Court, so I used -- I

6 referred to him as a younger man.

7 Q. Well, sir, I would suggest that we've

8 probably all heard that word before, and it might be

9 more helpful to be specific, because I would assume

10 that there are young men of many races, creeds, and

11 colours.

12 MR. HAYNES: Is that a question?

13 JUDGE ROBINSON: That's a comment,

14 Ms. Hayden. Let's move on.


16 Q. You indicated that Mr. Avramovic was showing

17 Mr. Agnes documents. Can you tell us what kind of

18 documents those are?

19 A. I can't tell you because I didn't pay any

20 attention. They were just binders.

21 Q. Well, I believe that you testified on your

22 direct that they were Prosecution binders, so I was

23 going to ask you how you knew.

24 A. Yes. Yes, they have special files, binders,

25 and our ones have very poor paper in them, but these

Page 534

1 were nice files with a metal wiring to the end of

2 them. Glossy paper.

3 Q. When you left with Mr. Avramovic, did you

4 discuss what had just taken place?

5 A. What period are you thinking about? The

6 events here in court?

7 Q. I'm thinking about when you left with

8 Mr. Avramovic on September 28th after your meeting with

9 the young man and his uncle.

10 A. Yes?

11 Q. Well, as you got into the car and drove away,

12 did you talk?

13 A. Oh, no. No. No, not at all. I wasn't

14 interested in anything like that. I was on my way to

15 The Hague, and I wasn't interested in that case.

16 Q. Let me clarify one thing. On September 28th,

17 your job as an investigator was over; is that correct?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. And your job representing Mr. Todorovic had

20 just begun; is that correct?

21 A. Just begun, yes. It started the following

22 day, in fact.

23 Q. Did you have any conversations -- let me

24 start over.

25 Have you had any conversations with

Page 535

1 Mr. Avramovic about Mr. Agnes since September 28th?

2 A. No, only when he told me that he could be a

3 potential witness, and that was in July this year --

4 that I could be a potential witness, I beg your

5 pardon.

6 Q. Did he tell you the nature of the

7 proceedings?

8 A. No, he just asked me whether I remembered the

9 event; that is to say, when we went to Mitrovica, just

10 that, the two of us.

11 Q. In your capacity as an investigator, did you

12 submit bills for your work on this case?

13 A. I only kept records of the work that I did,

14 and the chief lawyer would send in the bills, submit

15 bills.

16 Q. What kinds of records did you keep?

17 A. Well, for example, my trip to the Samac

18 municipality, the review of documentation, my trip to

19 the Defence Ministry, my conversation with

20 such-and-such a witness and preparations in that

21 respect. The kind of work that investigators do. My

22 trip to Banja Luka, to the military court there, the

23 judge and so on, that kind of thing.

24 Q. But not this particular trip; is that

25 correct? The particular trip on September 28th?

Page 536

1 A. The trip to Mitrovica, you mean?

2 Q. Yes.

3 A. No, that was not one that was scheduled in

4 advance, and I went out of friendship with my

5 colleague, not as an investigator. So it wasn't a trip

6 that was scheduled in advance.

7 Q. Well, was it the practice of the firm to

8 submit bills for such trips as this?

9 A. If you have a trip scheduled to some

10 particular place, and if that is the job you're doing,

11 then it would be normal to submit a bill for the work

12 you do, because you have incurred costs and expenses.

13 MS. HAYDEN: If I might just have one moment,

14 please.

15 JUDGE HUNT: Ms. Hayden, are you going to ask

16 him directly, was he paid for this particular trip?

17 That's what you are after, isn't it?

18 MS. HAYDEN: Thank you, Your Honour.

19 Q. Were you paid for this trip, sir?

20 A. No.

21 Q. You indicated in your statement that you

22 spent an -- that the four of you spent an extended

23 period of time as well as other issues related to a

24 mutual acquaintance. And can you tell me what "an

25 extended period of time" is?

Page 537

1 A. About half an hour. Half an hour,

2 thereabouts. Because you have one hour to go to

3 Mitrovica; if you have to spend an hour coming back and

4 an hour there, that is three hours. And it was in the

5 afternoon, and I was in a hurry, because my departure

6 for The Hague the next day was at 5.00 a.m.

7 Q. I think you misunderstood my question. I

8 simply wanted a definition for your idea of an extended

9 period of time discussing the method of Stevan

10 Todorovic's arrest. Do you think that was about

11 30 minutes? 45 minutes? An hour?

12 A. Well, about 30 minutes -- or, no, we spent

13 30 minutes on private discussions, not about the

14 arrest. It was the first time the arrest took place

15 outside Bosnia-Herzegovina, and it was interesting to

16 everybody to discuss it. And we discussed other

17 matters: our mutual friend, and so on.

18 Q. I'm simply addressing the issue of the time

19 that you spent during this meeting. Now, if I could, I

20 will tell you that you said that the four of you sat on

21 the terrace and spent an extended period of time

22 discussing the method of Stevan Todorovic's arrest.

23 This is your words. Afterwards, they left, "I

24 continued to confer --"

25 A. That's right.

Page 538

1 Q. And so how long do you think this lasted?

2 A. About another half hour. My conversation was

3 another half hour with the host before he went into the

4 kitchen.

5 Q. And then you joined Mr. Avramovic and

6 Mr. Agnes, and you heard them conferring about Samac.

7 You were sitting down watching Mr. Avramovic take

8 something down in a notebook. How long do you think

9 this lasted?

10 A. I was there ten minutes. The two of them had

11 previously been speaking together for about half an

12 hour, perhaps an hour.

13 Q. Sir, when you were the deputy minister of

14 justice in the Republika Srpska, you were aware that

15 Mr. Todorovic had been arrested, had you not -- I'm

16 sorry, indicted.

17 A. Oh, no. No. I was the liaison officer with

18 The Hague at the time when he was indicted. I think it

19 was in 1996. I'm not quite sure.

20 Q. So you were not aware that he had been

21 indicted at that time? At the time you were the deputy

22 minister, you were not aware he had been indicted?

23 A. Well, I was -- in 1993 and 1994 I was an

24 assistant, and Stevan Todorovic was indicted in 1996,

25 as far as I recall, which was when I was the deputy

Page 539

1 minister and liaison officer with The Hague, and I was

2 an assistant from 1993 to 1995.

3 Q. Thank you, Mr. Neskovic.

4 JUDGE ROBINSON: Re-examination.

5 Re-examined by Mr. Haynes:

6 Q. Just two questions. Did you have prior

7 authority to travel to Sremska Mitrovica so far as the

8 United Nations Registry was concerned?

9 A. No. No.

10 Q. And the other one is: Who took you to the

11 airport to fly to The Hague?

12 A. In the morning?

13 Q. Yes.

14 A. A taxi.

15 MR. HAYNES: Thank you very much. I have no

16 further re-examination.

17 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Neskovic, that concludes

18 your testimony. You are released.

19 [The witness withdrew]

20 MS. PATERSON: While we have this break,

21 could we just ask the Court to move the ELMO. It

22 blocks our view of the witnesses when they are sitting

23 here.

24 If they could just disconnect it and move

25 it.

Page 540

1 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Registrar, could you

2 have that attended to, please.

3 Mr. Haynes, your next witness.

4 MR. HAYNES: Jasna Marosevic, Your Honour.

5 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will

6 speak the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the

7 truth



10 Examined by Mr. Haynes:

11 Q. Is your full name Jasna Marosevic?

12 A. Yes. Yes.

13 Q. And how old are you, Ms. Marosevic?

14 A. I'm 26 years old.

15 Q. Were you born in a town called Gradac?

16 A. Gradac, yes.

17 Q. And --

18 A. Gradacac.

19 Q. Thank you. I think that's about 50

20 kilometres away from Bosanski Samac, isn't it?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Have you lived in Samac all your life?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Do you currently live with your father and

25 your brother?

Page 541

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. What happened to your mother?

3 A. My mother died last year.

4 Q. Can you tell us something about the state of

5 health of your father?

6 A. Well, my father is ill. He suffers from

7 asthma.

8 Q. And just so that we are clear, what religion

9 are you?

10 A. I am a Croat.

11 JUDGE ROBINSON: Could you have that

12 clarified.


14 Q. Do you mean that you are a Catholic?

15 A. Yes. Yes. That's right.

16 Q. And in terms of people in Bosnia, that makes

17 you a Croat, doesn't it?

18 A. I don't quite understand your question.

19 Could you repeat that, please.

20 Q. [Microphone not activated] -- a Croat and a

21 Catholic?

22 A. Yes. Yes.

23 Q. Now, were you residing in Bosanski Samac when

24 the war started in April 1992?

25 A. Yes.

Page 542

1 Q. Had you been living in Samac long when the

2 war started or had you been away somewhere?

3 A. Well, I was in Germany for a year before the

4 conflict in Samac broke out.

5 Q. And when did you come back?

6 A. One and a half months before the war.

7 Q. Just so that we are clear, how old were you

8 when the war started?

9 A. Nineteen.

10 Q. When you came back to Samac, did you meet

11 Mirsad Sahanic?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. What job was he then doing?

14 A. He was a policeman.

15 Q. And where did he live?

16 A. He lived in the Hotel Plaza, which is called

17 the Hotel Serbia today.

18 Q. And was he your boyfriend?

19 A. Yes. Yes.

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 543

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)


15 Q. So far as you were concerned, where did

16 Mr. Agnes live?

17 A. In the Hotel Plaza, which today is called the

18 Hotel Serbia.

19 Q. Now, just briefly, what else did you know

20 about him? Where did he originate from? What did he

21 do for a job of work?

22 A. (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 Q. Now, when the war began, what was it that

25 made you first aware that war had started?

Page 544

1 A. Mirsad and Mr. Agnes in the morning at about

2 4.00 a.m., came to see me armed, and they said that the

3 war had started and that I should go to the shelter.

4 Q. Where had you been the previous evening, and

5 with whom?

6 A. We were in the discotheque, I myself,

7 Mr. Agnes, Mirsad and Mr. Agnes's girlfriend.

8 Q. And when they came at 4.00 in the morning,

9 you say they were armed. What sort of arms were they

10 carrying?

11 A. Mirsad had an automatic rifle and so did

12 Agnes. He also had an automatic rifle.

13 Q. What were they wearing?

14 A. Mirsad was wearing a flak jacket and a police

15 uniform and Mr. Agnes only had a flak jacket on.

16 Q. Did you go with them?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Did you go alone or did you go with other

19 members of your family?

20 A. I went with my mother, my father and my

21 brother.

22 Q. Where did you go to?

23 A. They took us to the shelter in the next door

24 house.

25 Q. Were there other people there?

Page 545

1 A. Yes, there were.

2 Q. How many others?

3 A. Well, about 10, 15 people.

4 Q. And how long did you remain there?

5 A. Several days.

6 Q. What could you hear outside while you were

7 inside the shelter?

8 A. How do you mean?

9 Q. Well, did you eventually leave the shelter?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. When did you next see Mirsad?

12 A. In the TO building.

13 Q. And that was how long after he had taken you

14 to the shelter?

15 A. About 20 days later.

16 Q. Had he visited you while you'd been in the

17 shelter?

18 A. Yes, once.

19 Q. And what about Mr. Agnes?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. So when you emerged from the shelter, you saw

22 Mirsad again in the TO building. Do you remember that

23 meeting?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Did you take anything to him?

Page 546

1 A. Not the first time. The second time, when I

2 went the next day, he told me to take him a change of

3 clothing and some food.

4 Q. Did you see Mr. Agnes on either of those

5 visits?

6 A. Yes. On the second occasion when I took him

7 food.

8 Q. Did you take Mirsad food on a number of

9 occasions?

10 A. Yes, several times.

11 Q. Did he remain in the TO building or did you

12 see him somewhere else in Samac?

13 A. He wasn't in the TO building all the time.

14 They transferred them to the primary school after that.

15 Q. Did you see Mirsad in the primary school?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. What about Mr. Agnes?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Do you remember the last time you saw each of

20 them? I should emphasise, at that time.

21 A. I can't remember.

22 Q. Where was it?

23 A. At the primary school.

24 Q. And from that time to this time have you seen

25 Mirsad Sahanic since?

Page 547

1 A. No.

2 Q. What about Mr. Agnes, when did you next see

3 him?

4 A. In 1993, in May.

5 Q. Where did you see him?

6 A. He came to the cafe where I work, the Lotos

7 coffee bar.

8 Q. How did he look when you saw him?

9 A. He came wearing a uniform, with a rifle, a

10 camouflage uniform. He had binoculars with him.

11 Q. Did he tell you what the uniform was?

12 A. It's a camouflage uniform belonging to the

13 army of the Republika Srpska.

14 Q. Now, just to deal with a different topic

15 briefly. During 1992 were you ever detained yourself?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. For how long?

18 A. Seven days.

19 Q. Was your father ever detained?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. For about how long?

22 A. Three months.

23 Q. And after his detention, did you decide to

24 remain in Bosanski Samac?

25 A. Yes.

Page 548

1 Q. Now, after you'd been detained, did you start

2 work?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Where did you work?

5 A. In the Lotos Cafe bar. First in the

6 municipality in Samac.

7 Q. Well, in the municipality, what job did you

8 have there?

9 A. We made coffee.

10 Q. Is that where you first met Milan Simic?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Would you make his coffee?

13 A. Yes. For everyone.

14 Q. Would you describe him as a friend?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Is he somebody you are frightened of?

17 A. No.

18 Q. Have you been put under any pressure to come

19 and give your evidence here today?

20 A. No.

21 Q. Can we go back to Mr. Agnes, please. After

22 you saw him in 1993 in the cafe, when he was wearing

23 the uniform, when next did you see him?

24 A. Last year after the death of my mother; a

25 month and a half after that.

Page 549

1 Q. When did your mother die?

2 A. On the 21st of June last year.

3 Q. Where did you see him?

4 A. He came to the coffee bar where I was working

5 and then he came to my house.

6 Q. Did he tell you what the purpose was of his

7 visit?

8 A. Yes. He wanted to visit my mother's grave

9 with me.

10 Q. He knew your mother, did he?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And did you visit your mother's grave?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. What did you learn about the life he was

15 living at that time?

16 A. He told me that he had gone to Serbia, that

17 he was living there now with relatives because he was

18 afraid to go back to Bihac where he comes from.

19 Q. Did he explain why he was afraid to go back

20 to Bihac?

21 A. Allegedly because he had been in the army of

22 Republika Srpska.

23 Q. Other than Serbia, did he give any greater

24 particulars about where he had been living?

25 A. No.

Page 550

1 Q. Did he mention any towns?

2 A. Leskovac, Mitrovica.

3 Q. Was he working?

4 A. In Serbia, yes.

5 Q. As what?

6 A. He said that his uncle had a private firm and

7 that they were working together.

8 Q. Did he stay at your house the first time that

9 you saw him in 1998?

10 A. Yes, he spent the night, and then he left

11 immediately.

12 Q. Did you see him again after that?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. How long after was it that you next saw him?

15 A. A couple of days. He would come and go.

16 Q. The next time that you saw him, how long did

17 he stay?

18 A. Two or three days. Then he left to visit

19 friends in Banja Luka, and then he came back again for

20 a day or two.

21 Q. Now, you first met him just before the start

22 of the war, that's right, isn't it?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. When he came on that or any other visit, did

25 you discuss what had happened in the war?

Page 551

1 A. Yes. Well, yes.

2 Q. Did you ask him whether he knew Milan Simic

3 in one of these conversations?

4 A. Yes. Yes.

5 Q. Do you remember whether he said he did or he

6 didn't?

7 A. He told me that he knew him by sight, because

8 Mr. Simic was in a wheelchair. So everyone knows him.

9 Q. Did you tell him that Milan Simic had been

10 accused of war crimes in relation to what had happened

11 in Samac?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. What was his reaction to that?

14 A. He told me that as far as he knew, Mr. Simic

15 hadn't done anything bad, and he would tell anyone who

16 asked as much.

17 Q. Did you tell anybody that he had said that?

18 A. Not then.

19 Q. Did you tell Milan Simic that he had said

20 that?

21 A. I don't remember whether we talked about

22 that. But I think I did.

23 Q. Did you ask Mr. Agnes whether he was prepared

24 to talk to Mr. Simic's lawyers?

25 A. Yes.

Page 552

1 Q. And was he?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Did you do anything to put him in touch with

4 them?

5 A. With Mr. Simic? I don't understand.

6 Q. Did you do anything to put him in touch with

7 Mr. Simic's lawyers?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Did you have a telephone number for any of

10 Mr. Simic's lawyers?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Do you remember where you got it from?

13 A. I asked for the number from Mr. Simic.

14 Q. This is the point I'm trying to establish.

15 Do you remember how it came to be that Mr. Simic gave

16 you the number of his lawyers?

17 A. I asked for it.

18 Q. Well, I've asked you this question before. I

19 want you to think about it again. Do you remember

20 whether you told Mr. Simic about Mr. Agnes?

21 A. I can't remember exactly.

22 Q. Well, what was it that made you request or

23 take the telephone number of his lawyer from Mr. Simic?

24 A. I asked him to give it to me in case I spoke

25 to anyone. Then I should able to get in touch with the

Page 553

1 lawyers.

2 Q. Very well. Did you arrange a meeting between

3 Mr. Agnes and one of Mr. Simic's lawyers?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Where did that take place?

6 JUDGE BENNOUNA: (Interpretation) Mr. Haynes,

7 I should like to ask the witness -- actually, you asked

8 her whether she organised a meeting between Mr. Agnes

9 and the counsel of Mr. Simic. I should like to ask the

10 witness whether she organised that meeting at her own

11 initiative, or whether someone had asked her to do it.

12 A. I asked. Nobody told me anything. I called

13 up the attorney.

14 JUDGE BENNOUNA: (Interpretation) I would like

15 to put another question to the witness.

16 Why did you take this initiative?

17 A. Just like that, because I wanted to help

18 Mr. Simic, because I know he hadn't done anything

19 that ...

20 JUDGE BENNOUNA: (Interpretation) Thank you.


22 Q. How many conversations did you have with

23 Mr. Agnes about meeting Mr. Simic's lawyers?

24 A. I just asked him, and he said that he was

25 willing to see the attorneys. And then, afterwards, he

Page 554

1 told me he had told the attorney everything and that he

2 would in future be in touch with him.

3 Q. Did he seem at all worried about meeting

4 Mr. Simic's lawyers, or did he seem quite keen to do

5 it?

6 A. He was willing, keen, yes.

7 Q. So can we move on to the meeting. Did

8 Mr. Agnes come to your cafe again after you had

9 discussed with him talking to the lawyers?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Did you tell him you were going to contact

12 the lawyers and tell him he was there and willing to be

13 spoken to?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Did he raise any objection to that?

16 A. No.

17 Q. Who did you telephone?

18 A. Mr. Drago Vukovic.

19 Q. Do you remember when that was?

20 A. In mid-August last year.

21 Q. And do you know where Mr. Simic was at that

22 time?

23 A. Yes, he was in a spa.

24 Q. Just so we're clear, not in Bosanski Samac?

25 A. No, not in Samac.

Page 555

1 Q. Did Mr. Vukovic come to the cafe that day?

2 A. Yes, the same day.

3 Q. Did you introduce him to Mr. Agnes?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Did you remain with them?

6 A. No, they left. I stayed on alone.

7 Q. Just so that we're clear, how many times did

8 you meet Mr. Vukovic?

9 A. That time.

10 Q. Any other?

11 A. I don't remember.

12 Q. Do you remember any other occasion when

13 Mr. Vukovic and Mr. Agnes were in your cafe together,

14 or that you ever saw them together?

15 A. No.

16 Q. Now, when next did you see Mr. Agnes after

17 that meeting?

18 A. I think in March this year, it was, I think.

19 Q. Well, can I be clear: We're talking about

20 August of last year when you introduced Mr. Agnes to

21 Mr. Vukovic at the cafe.

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Did you see Mr. Agnes again in August?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. So that we have the picture, from August of

Page 556

1 last year, how often would you see him, Mr. Agnes?

2 A. Maybe two or three times. I can't remember

3 exactly how many times.

4 Q. And did he usually stay at your house?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. The next time that you saw him after the

7 meeting in the cafe with Mr. Vukovic, did he talk about

8 what he had told Mr. Vukovic?

9 A. No. He just told me that in future he would

10 be in touch with him; that he had told the lawyer

11 everything; and that he would keep in touch with him in

12 the future.

13 Q. Did he seem worried about being in touch with

14 Mr. Vukovic?

15 A. No.

16 Q. Now, do you remember when you first learned

17 that Mr. Simic's lawyer was to become Mr. Avramovic?

18 A. In October, I think. I think it was in

19 October.

20 Q. Had you by then met Mr. Avramovic?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Did you have a discussion with Mr. Avramovic

23 about what Mr. Agnes had told him?

24 A. He told me, Mr. Avramovic told me that he had

25 spoken to Mr. Agnes and that he would get in touch with

Page 557

1 him. I know he referred to an event, that Mr. Agnes

2 had told him that he had been travelling through

3 Samac. I found that strange because I knew that he had

4 stayed at the hotel. And I said that that was not

5 true.

6 Q. You told Mr. Avramovic that, did you?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Did you see Mr. Agnes in Samac after you'd

9 had that conversation with Mr. Avramovic?

10 A. I can't remember.

11 Q. Well, after October did he ever stay at your

12 house again?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Can you recall how many times?

15 A. A couple of times. I can't remember exactly

16 how many times.

17 Q. Did you talk to him when he stayed at your

18 house?

19 A. Yes. Yes.

20 Q. And what impression did you get then of his

21 position; what he was doing, where he was going, that

22 sort of thing?

23 A. He wasn't doing anything in particular. He

24 went out, he went to cafes, he came back. He went to

25 see some friends.

Page 558

1 Q. What about work?

2 A. He wasn't working at all, in Samac at least,

3 no.

4 Q. Now, did you and he ever discuss Mirsad

5 Sahanic?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Did you discuss getting in touch with him?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Did Mr. Agnes want to get in touch with him?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Was he able to?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. How was he able to?

14 A. I gave him his telephone number.

15 Q. And before that he didn't have it?

16 A. No.

17 Q. Did you call Mirsad Sahanic during 1998 and

18 1999?

19 A. Yes. I and Mr. Agnes called him together.

20 Q. How many times did you call him?

21 A. Once or twice. I can't remember exactly.

22 Q. Why did you want to speak to him?

23 A. Well, we had known each other. I wanted to

24 see how he was, what he was doing.

25 Q. Did Mr. Sahanic ever call you?

Page 559

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. How many times did he call you?

3 A. A couple of times. Four times. I don't

4 remember.

5 Q. When you first called him, what number did

6 you use?

7 A. Mr. Agnes called him at home. He dialled his

8 home number.

9 Q. Did you continue to call him on that number,

10 or did you use a different number?

11 A. I used his mobile number.

12 Q. Did Mr. Sahanic give that to you?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Did you ever call him at his office at work?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Did he give you that number as well?

17 A. [No audible response]

18 Q. Did you, during the course of your

19 conversations with him, try and arrange a --

20 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter

21 apologises.

22 JUDGE ROBINSON: We didn't get that

23 interpretation.


25 Q. Ms. Marosevic, I asked you whether Mirsad

Page 560

1 Sahanic gave you his office telephone number. What's

2 the answer to that, please --

3 A. The telephone number was the number of his

4 mobile telephone, which he carried to work.

5 Q. Thank you. During your conversations with

6 him, did you discuss meeting him?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Where did you discuss meeting him?

9 A. Somewhere, perhaps in Tuzla or somewhere

10 else.

11 Q. Did it matter to you where you met him?

12 A. No.

13 Q. And why did you want to see him?

14 A. Like that, I wanted to talk to him, and he

15 too wanted us to meet.

16 Q. Now, when you called him, from where were the

17 telephone calls made?

18 A. From the coffee bar where I was working.

19 Q. Did you ever make a telephone call to him

20 from Mr. Simic's office?

21 A. No.

22 Q. Were you ever present when a telephone call

23 was made from Mr. Simic's office to Mirsad Sahanic by

24 Mr. Agnes?

25 A. No.

Page 561













13 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between

14 the English and French transcripts












Page 562

1 Q. Have you ever seen Mr. Agnes in the company

2 of Mr. Simic?

3 A. No.

4 Q. The telephone calls you made to Germany, as

5 we know it to be, were they too expensive for you to

6 afford?

7 A. No.

8 Q. How many do you think there were in total?

9 A. A couple of calls. I don't remember exactly

10 how many.

11 Q. Did there come a time when Mirsad told you

12 not to call any more?

13 A. Yes. He didn't tell me that exactly, but,

14 rather, he said he would call me because his wife had

15 noticed that the two of us were talking, and she was

16 creating problems. And that is what he said.

17 Q. Did there come a time when he stopped calling

18 you?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Now, when was the last time that you saw

21 Mr. Agnes?

22 A. In April this year.

23 Q. And where was that?

24 A. In my house.

25 Q. Did you see him in March of this year?

Page 563

1 A. Yes. Yes.

2 Q. Did he talk to you about the impending NATO

3 bombing of Serbia?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. What did he say about that?

6 A. He came prior to the bombing, a couple of

7 days before. He said that the police had been looking

8 for him to mobilise him. He was afraid that he would

9 be sent to Kosovo, and so he fled over here to

10 Republika Srpska.

11 Q. Now, the last time you saw him in April, did

12 he stay at your house?

13 A. I don't quite understand. What do you mean?

14 Q. When you last saw him, where was it?

15 A. In my house.

16 Q. Was that just a quick visit, or had he been

17 there for any length of time?

18 A. He stayed for a while.

19 Q. How long did he stay for?

20 A. From March until the end of April. But he

21 went to see a friend in Banja Luka for a couple of

22 days.

23 Q. During the time he was staying with you, did

24 he, to your knowledge, meet Mr. Avramovic?

25 A. I don't remember. I don't remember. I think

Page 564

1 yes.

2 Q. Do you remember ever seeing Mr. Agnes with

3 Mr. Avramovic?

4 A. Yes. Yes, I do remember.

5 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Haynes, we are at about

6 the time to break, if it's convenient.

7 MR. HAYNES: I should say it's very

8 convenient.

9 JUDGE ROBINSON: We'll break for 20 minutes.

10 --- Recess taken at 4 p.m.

11 --- On resuming at 4.20 p.m.

12 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Haynes.


14 Q. Now, just before we broke, Ms. Marosevic, you

15 were telling us that you recall an occasion when

16 Mr. Avramovic had met Mr. Agnes, or you had seen them

17 together. Do you know the name Spasoje Pisarevic?

18 A. Spasoje Pisarevic, yes.

19 Q. Have you ever seen him in the company of

20 Mr. Agnes?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Once, or more than once?

23 A. Once.

24 Q. And were there just the two of them there, or

25 was somebody else there as well?

Page 565

1 A. Mr. Avramovic, Pisarevic, and Mr. Agnes.

2 Q. Where were they?

3 A. In the cafe where I work.

4 Q. How long were they there?

5 A. A short time. We had a drink and they left.

6 Q. I'll come back to that. Do you remember when

7 that was, that meeting that you were describing?

8 A. I can't remember exactly when it was, but

9 perhaps it was March. I can't remember exactly.

10 Q. Do you mean March of this year, 1999?

11 A. Yes, yes.

12 Q. And when you say "we had a drink," were you

13 sitting with these men?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And how long were the four of you together?

16 A. 10, 15 minutes. We just had something to

17 drink.

18 Q. And who was it that left?

19 A. Mr. Agnes, Mr. Avramovic, and Mr. Pisarevic.

20 Q. Now I want to come on to the last time you

21 saw Mr. Agnes. Where did you understand he was going

22 when you last saw him?

23 A. He told me that he was going to visit friends

24 in Pelagicevo.

25 Q. And had he stayed the previous night at your

Page 566

1 house?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. You may have already given evidence about

4 this, but how long had he been staying at your house,

5 on and off, by that stage?

6 A. Several times he would come, and then go and

7 see some friends, then he would come back. Several

8 times. I can't remember exactly how many, but ...

9 Q. Did you expect to see him again when he left

10 and said he had gone to Pelagicevo?

11 A. Yes. Yes, he said he would be back.

12 Q. When did you realise he wasn't going to be

13 back?

14 A. After some 15 days or so. I don't know

15 exactly how long.

16 Q. Did he leave anything behind at your house

17 after he left that time?

18 A. Yes, yes, he did. He left his things.

19 Q. How were they contained?

20 A. In a bag, in a travelling bag.

21 Q. And where was that left?

22 A. It was left in my house.

23 Q. Do you remember in particular where you

24 discovered it?

25 A. In a part of the cupboard where I keep some

Page 567

1 things.

2 Q. I'm going to show you a bag and see whether

3 you recognise it.

4 Does that look like the bag that you found in

5 the cupboard at your house?

6 A. Yes. Yes.

7 Q. When you first discovered it, what sort of

8 state was it in? Was it zipped up, like it is now, or

9 in some other state?

10 A. No, it was open, and the things were jumbled

11 up inside.

12 Q. What did you do with it, immediately that you

13 found it?

14 A. His towels were in the bathroom, and they

15 were his. I took the towels and put them in the bag

16 and closed the bag up and left it in the cupboard.

17 Q. Did you, on that occasion, see what was

18 inside the bag?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Why was that? Did you reorganise the stuff

21 in the bag?

22 A. Yes, they were all scattered about, so I had

23 to reorganise them in order to be able to close the

24 bag.

25 Q. What did you see inside the bag when you

Page 568

1 reorganised it and repacked it?

2 A. There was some T-shirts and trousers, a

3 jacket, the jacket was next to the bag, socks. There

4 was some documents, things like that.

5 Q. Do you remember now any of the documents that

6 were inside the bag when you first discovered it?

7 A. Yes. There was an army booklet. There was a

8 paper from the Red Cross and some visiting cards.

9 Q. Now, did you hand that bag to anybody else?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Who did you hand it to?

12 A. To Mr. Avramovic.

13 Q. Do you remember when that was?

14 A. It was in September. September. That's when

15 it was. It was my birthday, the 16th of September.

16 Q. Other than the towels that you put in it, did

17 you put anything else in that bag?

18 A. No.

19 Q. Did anybody else in your family or otherwise

20 put anything in that bag?

21 A. No.

22 Q. And when you took it to Mr. Avramovic, where

23 did you take it to?

24 A. To the office of Mr. Pisarevic.

25 Q. And who was there when you took the bag?

Page 569

1 A. Mr. Avramovic and Ms. Tatjana.

2 Q. Just so we are clear, that's the lady sitting

3 to my left, is it?

4 A. Yes. Yes.

5 Q. And when you took the bag there, what did you

6 do?

7 A. I opened the bag and showed them the stuff

8 that was inside.

9 Q. Did you take the items out one by one?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And as you took each item out, did you

12 describe it?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. What was Ms. Tatjana doing?

15 A. She was writing on the computer, making a

16 note of the things that were in the bag. She was

17 making a record of it.

18 Q. Was a document produced by the computer that

19 day?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Did you read that document?

22 A. I did.

23 Q. Did it accurately record the items that had

24 been taken from the bag?

25 A. It did.

Page 570

1 Q. And did you sign it to say that it did?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. I am going to show you a document, and you

4 can use it to refresh your memory.

5 MS. PATERSON: Your Honours, may we have a

6 copy before it's shown to the witness.

7 MR. HAYNES: In English or Serbian?

8 MS. PATERSON: Which do you think,

9 Mr. Haynes? We prefer the English, thank you.

10 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Mr. Haynes,

11 after this series of details, could you ask the witness

12 whether the contested document was in the bag, because

13 there is no challenge as to the clothing. Could you

14 ask the witness directly so that we can make progress,

15 that is focus on the point that is a cause of problem,

16 whether there was a document, specifically a passport.

17 Could you please proceed more directly to speed things

18 up.

19 MR. HAYNES: Yes. I believe, actually, with

20 respect, she's actually already answered that.

21 JUDGE HUNT: She hasn't. What she said was

22 there were some military documents --

23 MR. HAYNES: Well, I think she said a

24 military passbook, but I am taking this carefully

25 because of the question of provenance.

Page 571

1 Q. Can I just make the position clear. You are

2 about to be handed documents. I have no objection to

3 that, but at the moment I think this only has the

4 status of a memory refreshing document, and if anybody

5 wants to object to you seeing that, they should say so

6 now. But it may make matters a lot shorter if we just

7 have the document in front of all of us.

8 Mrs. Marosevic, is that the document you

9 signed that day?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Now that everybody has a copy of this, I am

12 not going to take you through every item. But can you

13 go to the third page. Is there a heading there that

14 says the bag also contains the following documents?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. What was the first document that was drawn

17 from the bag?

18 A. It was the army booklet.

19 Q. Now, I want you to see Defence Exhibit D1

20 now, please. Is that the document that you took out of

21 the bag?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And just so that we are clear, there is a

24 photograph in there. Can you see it? Can you have a

25 look at it?

Page 572

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Who is it in the photograph --

3 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Mr. Haynes,

4 I should like to ask the witness whether finding the

5 document in the bag -- whether you looked at it? Did

6 you look at the document? Did you open it when you

7 found it in the bag?

8 A. Yes.

9 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Why did you

10 open it?

11 A. Well, just so I could see what it said in the

12 army booklet.

13 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] And when you

14 opened it, you read what it said?

15 A. Yes. Yes.

16 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] You read

17 everything?

18 A. Well, not everything, but just the first

19 page.

20 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Only the

21 first page?

22 A. Yes, the first and second pages.

23 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] The first or

24 the second?

25 A. Both.

Page 573

1 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] So you read

2 the first two pages?

3 A. Yes.

4 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] And you

5 recognised the document that you found?

6 A. Yes.

7 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] The one you

8 have in your hands is the one you found?

9 A. Yes.

10 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Thank you.


12 Q. Just so we are clear about this, do you

13 remember whether you counted the number of pages in the

14 booklet before you described it to Ms. Tatjana?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Now, you were just looking at the

17 photograph.

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Do you recognise the man in that photograph?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Who is it?

22 A. It's Mr. Agnes.

23 Q. And you knew him in 1992, and you saw him in

24 1993? Are you able to help us about when that

25 photograph would have been taken, from your knowledge

Page 574

1 of him?

2 A. Well, in 1993, because he's wearing a uniform

3 of the army of the Republika Srpska, and you can see

4 that on the photo. You can see that he's wearing a

5 uniform.

6 Q. When you knew him in 1992 and 1993, how did

7 he wear his hair?

8 A. He had longer hair, in strands.

9 Q. Did he have any colour in it?

10 A. As far as I know, no.

11 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Haynes, I just want to

12 have established how much time had elapsed between the

13 time when the bag was left there by Mr. Agnes and the

14 time when she took out the military document.


16 Q. Certainly. Do you know the precise date when

17 Mr. Agnes left your house for the last time?

18 A. I don't know the exact date, but I do know

19 that it was at the end of the April.

20 Q. When did you first look in the bag?

21 A. About 15 days later.

22 Q. Did you see that document, the army booklet

23 you are looking at now, then?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And the one you have in your hands is the

Page 575

1 same one you saw sometime in May probably?

2 A. Yes, of course.

3 Q. Now, do you remember when it was that you

4 took the bag to Mr. Pisarevic's office?

5 A. In September, on the 16th of September, or

6 17th.

7 Q. And the document you pulled out then, was

8 that the one you have in your hands now?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. And did you recognise it as the same one

11 you'd seen in May?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Thank you. Now, just one more topic,

14 please. You live with your brother and your father?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Are you close to your father?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. If anything troubled him, would he talk to

19 you about it?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Has your father ever met Milan Simic?

22 A. Only in passing.

23 Q. Has your father ever met Drago Vukovic?

24 A. No.

25 Q. Branislav Avramovic?

Page 576

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. When was the first time he met Branislav

3 Avramovic?

4 A. I can't remember exactly, but I do know that

5 it was in the coffee bar where I work. My father

6 happened to come along, and Mr. Avramovic was there.

7 Q. Well, can you help us: Was it recently, or

8 was this a long time ago?

9 A. Not a long time ago.

10 Q. Well, can you be more precise? Was it this

11 year?

12 A. Yes, this year.

13 Q. Within the last month, two months, three

14 months? How long?

15 A. Perhaps two months.

16 Q. And this was not a meeting by arrangement;

17 this was a chance encounter?

18 A. A chance encounter, yes.

19 Q. Now, I want you to think about this: Has

20 your father been put under any pressure to make false

21 witness statements by any lawyer or on behalf of Milan

22 Simic?

23 A. No.

24 Q. Would he have told you if he had?

25 A. Yes.

Page 577

1 Q. Just one more question which I'm asking

2 because I'm told the transcript originally was wrong.

3 On the night before the war started, you told us you

4 went to a discotheque?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Who did you go with?

7 A. There was myself, Mr. Agnes, Mirsad, and

8 Agnes's girlfriend.

9 Q. Thank you, Ms. Marosevic.

10 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Ms. Paterson?

11 MS. PATERSON: Yes, Mr. President. Before I

12 begin asking the witness questions, I would like to

13 clarify just a couple of matters.

14 First of all, it's come to our attention that

15 we, myself and Mr. Haynes, the Office of the Prosecutor

16 and Mr. Haynes, were under the impression that all of

17 the witness statements and all the documents that had

18 been submitted to the Court before this hearing began

19 had, in fact, been brought to Your Honours' attention

20 and that you had read those documents before the

21 hearing began. Can we clarify, is that a correct

22 understanding on our part, or are we to assume that

23 those documents are not in evidence and need to be

24 introduced into evidence now as new documents that have

25 not been considered as potential evidence?

Page 578

1 JUDGE HUNT: We've certainly got them, but

2 should you not tender them to make it formal?

3 MS. PATERSON: That is what I'm just trying

4 to clarify. This is a --

5 JUDGE HUNT: It's no good just leaving them

6 up in the air on the basis we've read them. I must say

7 I assumed you would be tendering them all. I thought,

8 in fact, they had been tendered, but --

9 MS. PATERSON: Well, that's all I'm trying to

10 clarify. There was some misunderstanding on what the

11 status was of those documents.

12 Can I also clarify, then, and perhaps I can

13 get a statement from Mr. Haynes regarding this. This

14 document that he has just presented, that Ms. Marosevic

15 has just testified to, is entitled "Witness Statement,"

16 and it's dated the 17th of September. We did receive a

17 signed statement from Ms. Marosevic dated the 13th of

18 June, but this statement was never brought to our

19 attention. Can I clarify that this statement was never

20 brought to the Court's attention as well, and that this

21 is the first time it's being tendered, and is there

22 some explanation why all the other statements were

23 brought to our attention and this one was not?

24 JUDGE HUNT: I would guess that it's an

25 evidentiary statement rather than a witness statement,

Page 579

1 because she said that she checked the list as it was

2 typed out, that it was correct as to the contents of

3 the bag. That means it's not a witness statement; it's

4 a document from which she can refresh her recollection,

5 and in accordance with the Rules of this Tribunal, it

6 would become evidence in hearsay.

7 MS. PATERSON: Yes, I understand that, Your

8 Honour, but the document clearly is entitled "Witness

9 Statement."

10 JUDGE HUNT: Yes, well, that may be. I have

11 never seen it before.

12 MS. PATERSON: Okay. I just wanted to

13 clarify that fact, that it has not been brought to our

14 attention or the Court's.

15 Finally, I would like to clarify that before

16 we began this proceeding, Mr. Haynes asked permission

17 for Ms. Tatjana -- I'm sorry, I don't remember her last

18 name now -- to be present in court. Can we confirm

19 that at that time, Mr. Haynes did not inform us or the

20 Court that Ms. Tatjana could be a potential witness

21 before this proceeding, as now appears apparent from

22 the testimony of Ms. Marosevic? That might have

23 affected our agreement as to whether or not she should

24 participate in this proceeding.

25 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Haynes?

Page 580

1 MR. HAYNES: Yes, I'll be perfectly frank. I

2 only knew the manner in which this list was compiled

3 yesterday.

4 [Trial Chamber confers]

5 JUDGE BENNOUNA: Mr. Haynes, I would like to

6 ask you to clarify, please, this document, because

7 we -- I did not notice that it is titled "Witness

8 Statement," which is not the correct title. Because if

9 I understood what you said, it was an exhibit, a sort of

10 computer document by Ms. Tatjana. Have you, in

11 Serbian, the original?

12 MR. HAYNES: Yes, Ms. Marosevic has the

13 document in Serbian, and it bears her signature.

14 JUDGE BENNOUNA: At what time was this

15 document -- I don't know how it is in Serbian. Was it

16 typed by Ms. Tatjana? Or can you clarify this for us,

17 please?

18 MR. HAYNES: It's a matter of evidence. This

19 witness has said that as she produced each item from

20 the bag, she described it, Ms. Tatjana, at the time,

21 was sitting at a computer, and that paper subsequently

22 came out of the computer which she read to herself and

23 assured herself were the accurate descriptions of the

24 items in the bag, and then she signed it. The fact of

25 this bag and where it was recovered from was put to

Page 581













13 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between

14 the English and French transcripts












Page 582

1 Mr. Agnes, I think on the second day he gave evidence.

2 I take the view that the scheduling order

3 invited me to submit then witness statements from those

4 upon whom I was going to rely, and Ms. Marosevic was

5 one of them. This came to light subsequently. When I

6 looked at it, I thought it's not an exhibit, it's a

7 memory-refreshing document, and I would invite her to

8 use it in that way.

9 I had been under the impression until

10 yesterday that there must have been a manuscript

11 version of this. I hadn't realised that the thing had

12 been immediately computer-generated and signed at the

13 time, and that explains -- and I didn't know

14 Ms. Tatjana was there when the --

15 JUDGE BENNOUNA: But you know that really,

16 you had to produce this document and to inform, I

17 think, the representative of the Prosecutor. Since it

18 is right, you had to inform the Prosecutor and the

19 Court of the existence of this document at the normal

20 time; that is, it is not normal that you produce it

21 now. But now it is here, and we can move on, I think.

22 MR. HAYNES: Yes.

23 MS. PATERSON: I don't want to belabour this

24 point, but can we just clarify for the record. If

25 Mr. Haynes didn't find out about this until yesterday,

Page 583

1 certainly Ms. Tatjana and Mr. Avramovic knew about this

2 when it was signed on the 17th of September. Can we

3 confirm that --

4 MR. HAYNES: That's not what I am saying.

5 That's not what I am saying. What I am saying is I

6 didn't realise that the manner in which a document I

7 had regarded as a potentially memory-refreshing

8 document had been created with the assistance of

9 Ms. Tatjana Cmeric. I didn't know that until

10 yesterday. And I had taken the view that as a

11 memory-refreshing document I had assumed wrongly there

12 must be a manuscript version and it should be sought.

13 I enquired about that yesterday and I was told how this

14 document was created.

15 Now, it would not be right to suggest I

16 didn't know about the document before yesterday. I

17 knew about it probably when we were first here, but I

18 took the view that the scheduling order had been

19 complied with in terms of witness statements upon whom

20 I rely being called, and that this was a document that

21 could be properly used as a memory-refreshing

22 document. And that's all I ever intended it to be used

23 as. I didn't --

24 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you, Mr. Haynes. Will

25 you proceed now, Ms. Paterson.

Page 584

1 Cross-examined by Ms. Paterson:

2 Q. My name is Nancy Paterson, and I am going to

3 ask you a series of questions. Please let me know if

4 you don't understand any of my questions. I'll be

5 happy to rephrase them for you.

6 I'd like to just clarify, I know you

7 testified to this previously, but you are a 26 year

8 old -- 26 years old; is that correct?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. And you've lived in Bosanski Samac your

11 entire life?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. And what is your educational background? Did

14 you graduate from high school? Did you attend any

15 college courses?

16 A. I graduated secondary catering school. It

17 was a course given by the catering school.

18 Q. And, as you stated, your mother is -- has

19 passed away, but you are living with your father and

20 brother; is that correct?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And you said your father is ill. Is he able

23 to work and provide any support for the family?

24 A. No, he is not working.

25 Q. What about your brother, is he working? Does

Page 585

1 he provide support for the family?

2 A. Yes, he is.

3 Q. Okay. And you stated that you continued to

4 live in Bosanski Samac throughout the years that the

5 war was going on, 1992 to 1995; is that correct?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Now, you stated that you are a Croat, that's

8 your ethnicity; is that correct?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. But it's a fact, is it not, Ms. Marosevic,

11 that a large number, as a matter of fact the majority

12 of the Croats left Bosanski Samac during the war years;

13 is that not true?

14 MR. HAYNES: There is no evidence of that.

15 How can that be put in these proceedings?

16 JUDGE HUNT: She can ask the question.

17 JUDGE ROBINSON: She can ask the question.

18 A. Yes.


20 Q. Many Croats left, did they not?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Now, Bosanski Samac today is still in the

23 area that's called Republika Srpska; is that correct?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And the Republika Srpska is an entity that's

Page 586

1 controlled primarily by Serbs; is that not correct?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And the current government of Bosanski Samac

4 is primarily controlled by Serbs; is that not true?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Now, I would just like to clarify, before you

7 came to testify here, you stated that you had several

8 conversations earlier with Mr. Avramovic. Did you

9 discuss with either Mr. Haynes or Mr. Avramovic the

10 testimony of other witnesses who have already testified

11 in this proceeding?

12 A. No.

13 Q. Are you aware, for example, that Mr. Agnes

14 has already testified in this proceeding?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Were you informed of the substance of his

17 testimony, things he had said when he was here in

18 Court?

19 A. No.

20 Q. And Mirsad Sahanic, were you aware that

21 Mr. Sahanic has testified here?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Were you informed of the substance of what

24 Mr. Sahanic said?

25 A. No.

Page 587

1 Q. Were you ever informed that both Mr. Agnes

2 and Mr. Sahanic had prepared several written witness

3 statements that were provided to the Court, and did you

4 ever have an opportunity to see those statements?

5 A. No.

6 Q. And you yourself prepared a written

7 statement, did you not, that I believe was signed on

8 the 17th of June 1999; is that correct?

9 A. Yes. Yes. Yes.

10 Q. And before you signed that statement, did you

11 have an opportunity to read it over to confirm that

12 everything in the statement was correct and true as

13 best you could recall?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And were you informed when you prepared this

16 witness statement the purpose this statement was going

17 to be used for; that it was going to be brought to the

18 Judges' attention in this proceeding?

19 A. I asked Mr. Avramovic what it was for. He

20 told me that he couldn't tell me; that all I had to do

21 was say what I knew about Mr. Agnes.

22 Q. But did he ask you to give a full and

23 complete statement, everything that you could remember

24 that you thought was important about your interaction

25 with Mr. Agnes?

Page 588

1 A. Yes, everything I know about him.

2 Q. And you also included everything that you

3 could remember about your contacts with Mirsad Sahanic;

4 is that correct?

5 A. With Mirsad Sahanic?

6 Q. Yes. You made some references to Mirsad in

7 your statement; is that not correct?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. And so you put everything that you could

10 remember about your contacts with Mirsad in this

11 statement as well; is that not true?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Now, you've stated that you are currently

14 employed at a cafe bar in Bosanski Samac called the

15 Cafe Lotos; is that correct?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. How long have you been working at that cafe?

18 A. Since 1993.

19 Q. So did you ever work at a cafe called the

20 Jetset?

21 A. No.

22 Q. In your current job at the Cafe Lotos, could

23 you tell us what you do there? Are you basically a

24 waitress, do you serve drinks and coffee? What exactly

25 do you do?

Page 589

1 A. Drinks, coffee, everything we serve.

2 Everything.

3 Q. Do you have any other jobs or

4 responsibilities outside of working at this cafe bar?

5 A. No.

6 Q. Can you tell me how much you earn a month,

7 every month, from working at the cafe bar,

8 approximately?

9 A. 250 to 300 German marks.

10 Q. Do you ever have occasion to travel, to

11 travel to other towns or cities in Bosnia, or to even

12 other countries in Europe?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Do you ever do that in relation to your work,

15 or is that just for personal reasons?

16 A. For personal reasons.

17 Q. Now, do you own this Cafe Lotos, or do you

18 simply work there?

19 A. No. I just work there.

20 Q. Who owns the cafe?

21 A. Alexandar Jankovic.

22 Q. Is he also known by the nickname Aco?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. How long have you known Mr. Jankovic?

25 A. Since '93.

Page 590

1 Q. How would you describe your relationship with

2 Mr. Jankovic? Is it purely professional or is there a

3 personal nature to the relationship?

4 A. Purely business.

5 Q. Do you know if there is any relationship, a

6 personal relationship between Mr. Jankovic and Milan

7 Simic?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. And what is that?

10 A. Mr. Simic is Mr. Jankovic's son-in-law or

11 brother-in-law.

12 Q. Perhaps brother-in-law? Would that be

13 correct? It's the sister of Milan Simic's wife who is

14 married to Mr. Jankovic; isn't that correct?

15 A. Aco's sister is married to Mr. Simic.

16 Q. Mr. Jankovic's sister is married to Milan

17 Simic; is that correct?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Are you aware of what Mr. Jankovic did during

20 the years of the war in 1992, before you started

21 working for him in 1993? Did he have another job

22 besides working at the cafe?

23 A. No.

24 Q. Were you aware that there was a period of

25 time when Mr. Jankovic was the bodyguard for Blagoje

Page 591

1 Simic?

2 MR. HAYNES: What has this got to do with

3 anything?

4 JUDGE ROBINSON: Ms. Paterson, what's the

5 relevance of this?

6 MS. PATERSON: I think it's highly

7 significant, that there is a close relationship between

8 Milan Simic and the owner of this cafe bar where

9 Ms. Marosevic works. I am just trying to explore the

10 extent of that relationship, the reasons why there

11 might be some connection between all these people.

12 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. Go ahead.


14 Q. Could you answer that question,

15 Mr. Marosevic --

16 MR. HAYNES: That question is about Blagoje

17 Simic, who is a different person.

18 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, go ahead.


20 Q. One more time. Were you aware that

21 Mr. Jankovic for a period of time worked as the

22 bodyguard for Blagoje Simic?

23 A. No. Not as far as I know.

24 Q. But you know who I am referring to when I say

25 Blagoje Simic; the man who used to be the mayor of

Page 592

1 Bosanski Samac?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Now, you said that you worked for a period of

4 time in the municipality building, is that correct,

5 before you started working in the cafe?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And that's how you first met Mr. Simic; is

8 that right?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. So you would have also met Blagoje Simic, I

11 assume, since he also worked in the municipality; is

12 that not true?

13 A. I knew Mr. Blagoje from before the war.

14 Q. Working in the municipality building, did you

15 also meet Mr. Todorovic, Mr. Zaric and Mr. Tadic back

16 in 1992 and '93?

17 A. Mr. Zaric, I knew from before the war.

18 Mr. Tadic, I also knew from before the war. I met

19 Mr. Todorovic during the war.

20 Q. Now, you said during your direct examination

21 that you met Milan Simic when you were making coffee at

22 the municipality building. Could you explain in a bit

23 more detail the kind of relationship you have with

24 Milan Simic?

25 A. We are friends.

Page 593

1 Q. Would you consider yourself good friends?

2 A. Well, yes.

3 Q. Did you spend a lot of time with Mr. Simic

4 when he was in Bosanski Samac? Were you spending time

5 with he and his wife?

6 A. Not much time, but we would see each other.

7 Q. But you testified that you made some efforts

8 to help Milan Simic in this case before the Court, to

9 try and locate witnesses that might testify on his

10 behalf. Isn't that right?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And why is it that you are making this

13 special effort for Mr. Simic, to help him find these

14 witnesses, to assist him in this way?

15 A. Milan is a friend of mine. Why not?

16 Q. Now, you described earlier in your testimony

17 the relationship that you had with Mirsad Sahanic and

18 the man we are referring to as Mr. Agnes. Now, you met

19 them both approximately, you said, I think, about six

20 weeks before the war broke out on the 17th of April

21 1992; is that right?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And during that time you got to become, shall

24 we say, the boyfriend of Mirsad Sahanic? Would that be

25 a fair description of your relationship? Girlfriend.

Page 594

1 I'm sorry.

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. So during those six weeks you would go out

4 occasionally to the coffee bars, the discos, spend time

5 together; is that right?

6 A. Yes, every day.

7 Q. Well, at some point, I assume, Mr. Sahanic

8 was working? He was working as an active policeman at

9 the time, wasn't he?

10 A. Yes. Yes.

11 Q. And he was responsible for protecting the

12 bridge across the river? That was a very important

13 link from Bosnian to Croatia? He had a very important

14 job, didn't he?

15 A. I don't know exactly what he was doing. I

16 know he was working in the police. What he was

17 guarding, I don't know.

18 Q. You spent almost every day with him, but he

19 never told you what he was doing; is that what you are

20 saying?

21 A. Yes, that's what I am saying.

22 Q. But would it be fair to say that you had come

23 to become quite fond of Mirsad Sahanic, that you cared

24 a great deal about him?

25 A. Yes.

Page 595

1 Q. If the war had not broken out and he had not

2 been arrested, is it fair to say you would have

3 continued your relationship?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. So you cared a great deal about Mirsad and

6 what was happening to him; did you not?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Particularly, after the war broke out, when

9 you found out that he was being detained in one of the

10 detention camps, you were concerned for his welfare,

11 weren't you?

12 A. Yes, I was sorry.

13 Q. You yourself had been detained for a period

14 of time, so you knew what it was like to be detained in

15 these camps, didn't you?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. And your father was also detained for several

18 months, under very difficult conditions, wasn't he?

19 A. For three months, yes.

20 Q. And your father was being detained in camps

21 being run by the Serbs who were controlling Bosanski

22 Samac at the time; isn't that right?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. And would it be fair to say that during those

25 six weeks before the war broke out, you had also become

Page 596

1 good friends with Mr. Agnes, not in a romantic way, but

2 good friends nonetheless?

3 A. Yes. Yes.

4 Q. And you also cared about his welfare and what

5 was happening to him when he was detained in the camps;

6 isn't that right?

7 A. Yes. Yes.

8 Q. Now, when Mr. Haynes asked you about the

9 night that the war broke out in Bosanski Samac, which

10 was, I believe, the night between the 16th and 17th of

11 April 1992, you said you were at home that night; isn't

12 that correct?

13 A. No. We were in the disco that night. We

14 were in the disco.

15 Q. Yes, but you didn't stay out the entire

16 night, did you? At some point in time you went home

17 and went to sleep, I assume?

18 A. Yes. Yes. Around 9.00.

19 Q. And you went to your own home where you

20 stayed with your father? You did not go with Mirsad

21 back to the hotel and spend the night with him in the

22 hotel, did you?

23 A. No. I went to my own home.

24 Q. And when the war broke out, when the fighting

25 broke out, it was pretty obvious, wasn't it? There was

Page 597

1 a lot of shooting going on, there was some shelling,

2 there was a lot of confusion in the streets? You knew

3 immediately that something was wrong, didn't you?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Now, you've stated that about 4.00 that

6 morning, when the fighting started, that Mr. Agnes and

7 Mirsad appeared at your house, dressed in uniform, with

8 guns, and that they led you and your family to a

9 shelter; is that right?

10 A. Yes, Mirsad was in uniform. And Mr. Agnes

11 only had a bulletproof vest and a rifle.

12 Q. So it's your testimony that as soon as the

13 war broke out, literally within minutes, within the

14 first hour after the fighting had started, the very

15 first thing they did was jumped into uniform, grabbed

16 their guns and ran to your house; is that what you are

17 saying?

18 A. Yes, that is how it was. They came to my

19 place.

20 Q. So when both Mr. Agnes and Mr. Sahanic say

21 no, that wasn't their first concern, their first

22 concern was for their own security, to find shelter

23 within the hotel, they would be incorrect?

24 A. I don't know. But they came to my place.

25 Q. Are you aware of the fact that both Mr. Agnes

Page 598

1 and Mirsad were arrested that very day that you claim

2 they came and led you to the shelter?

3 A. They came the next day, in the morning, to

4 see me in the shelter, and after that, I didn't see

5 them again. I didn't know that they had been arrested

6 immediately.

7 Q. But that's what they testified to here

8 before, so there's no reason to question the fact that

9 as far as you know, that when they say they were

10 arrested that day, they're telling the truth?

11 A. I don't know. I know what happened when they

12 came to see me.

13 Q. Now, you said that you stayed in the shelter,

14 you estimated, for maybe as much as 20 days after the

15 war broke out; is that correct?

16 A. Some ten days.

17 Q. Ten days, not 20 days. I think you

18 testified --

19 A. I said ten. I said ten.

20 Q. Maybe that was my misunderstanding.

21 So then you said that the next time you saw

22 Mirsad, he was in the TO, the Territorial Defence

23 building; is that correct?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Do you know when that was? Was that still in

Page 599

1 April, or was it in May? Do you recall?

2 A. I think it was in May, in May.

3 Q. You're pretty sure it was sometime in May,

4 sometime after the 1st of May, perhaps?

5 A. Well, I can't be quite sure, but I think it

6 was in May.

7 Q. Well, are you aware that Mirsad, Mr. Agnes,

8 and several other men that were detained in the

9 Territorial Defence building were transferred to Brcko

10 at the end of April, and that they were not even in the

11 Territorial Defence building in May?

12 A. I know they went somewhere, but I don't know

13 where, and I cannot remember exactly when. I don't

14 know whether it was Brcko.

15 Q. Okay. Now, you said that on one occasion,

16 one or two occasions, you took them a change of

17 clothing and some food; is that right?

18 A. I took Mirsad the change of clothing, yes,

19 and some food.

20 Q. And was that when they were detained at the

21 TO, or at the primary school building?

22 A. Once to the Territorial Defence, and another

23 time to the primary school building.

24 Q. Okay. And again, these detention camps were

25 being guarded by Serb guards, were they not?

Page 600

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. So you had to get permission from the guards

3 to be able to give these sandwiches to Mirsad and to

4 Mr. Agnes?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And the primary school is right next door to

7 the secondary school, where your father was being

8 detained; is that not correct?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Now, I believe in the statement that you gave

11 in June, you said that -- and I'll read from the

12 statement, from the English translation: "I saw Mirsad

13 and Mr. Agnes again at the elementary school building

14 about ten days after." This means ten days after you

15 learned that they had been arrested. "I was bringing

16 them food every day. Sometimes I would deliver the

17 food to them personally and sometimes through the

18 guards. That lasted until July or August 1992, when

19 Mirsad was exchanged."

20 Now, you just told me that you only took them

21 food once, so you didn't take them food every day, as

22 you said in your statement, you just took them once; is

23 that correct?

24 A. Once to the TO, and later on, when they were

25 in the primary school, or elementary school, I would go

Page 601













13 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between

14 the English and French transcripts












Page 602

1 to take them food frequently.

2 Q. Maybe I should actually read the paragraph

3 that precedes that, because it's referring to that time

4 at the TO. You said that you learned from Gojko

5 Ostojic that your boyfriend Mirsad was detained at the

6 TO building; is that correct? Is that who you found

7 out --

8 A. Yes. Yes.

9 Q. "About ten days after, Gojko took me to see

10 Mirsad. I spoke to him on that occasion, and he took

11 me to bring him some things to change his clothes. The

12 next day when I took some clothes and food to Mirsad, I

13 saw Mr. Agnes too." Is that all correct?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And then the next line is, "I saw Mirsad and

16 Mr. Agnes again at the elementary school building about

17 ten days after." So this implies this was ten days

18 after you had seen them in the TO building. Is that

19 correct, that sequence of events?

20 A. Well, I can't remember exactly when, after

21 how many days, but I do know ...

22 Q. Okay. Are you aware of the fact that from

23 April until approximately the end of May or the

24 beginning of June, both Mirsad and Mr. Agnes were

25 detained in Brcko and Bijeljina, Ugljevik, and other

Page 603

1 locations before they were ultimately returned to

2 Bosanski Samac --

3 MR. HAYNES: Hang on a minute. They called

4 Mirsad Sahanic, who confirmed the stories about food

5 being taken to him. You can't impugn your own witness

6 like this.

7 JUDGE ROBINSON: Continue, Ms. Paterson.


9 Q. My point is, are you aware that Mr. Agnes and

10 Mirsad were out of Bosanski Samac for almost six weeks

11 from the time you saw them in the TO before they were

12 returned to the primary school?

13 A. Yes, I had heard, but I don't know exactly

14 how long they were away. I can't remember the period

15 of time, exactly how long it was.

16 Q. And as you said in your statement, did you

17 bring them food every day, or just one time when they

18 were at the primary school you brought them food?

19 A. Yes, I would take them food frequently.

20 Q. And you said you continued to take them food

21 until July or August 1992, when Mirsad was exchanged;

22 is that correct?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Now, this is Mirsad, the man who you

25 considered your boyfriend, who you've just said you

Page 604

1 cared a great deal about; is that right?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. You were paying attention to what was

4 happening to him, how he was being treated; you were

5 concerned about his condition, weren't you?

6 A. Well, I couldn't do anything about it there.

7 I was sorry.

8 Q. Well, I'm not implying that there is anything

9 that you could do. I realise there was nothing you

10 could do. I'm just trying to confirm that you cared a

11 lot about Mirsad and were trying to stay in touch with

12 what was happening to him; isn't that right?

13 A. Yes, as far as I was able to.

14 Q. So this man that you cared about, when you

15 say he was released in July or August of 1992, would

16 you be surprised to learn that in fact he was released

17 in November of 1992? Not July or August, but November,

18 several months later?

19 A. Well, as I say, I can't quite remember when

20 it was. It was thereabouts. A lot of time has gone

21 by.

22 Q. So what happened after July and August? You

23 just stopped seeing Mirsad, you stopped taking him

24 food, you didn't care any more about what happened to

25 him? From August to November, that was it; you didn't

Page 605

1 go see him again?

2 A. No.

3 Q. But that's what you say in your statement, so

4 this part of your statement, then, is not correct?

5 A. Well, I didn't see him after that. When he

6 was exchanged, of course I didn't see him after he was

7 exchanged.

8 Q. No, that's not what I'm saying,

9 Ms. Marosevic. I'm saying before he was exchanged. He

10 was exchanged on the 5th of November. You said he was

11 exchanged on July or August. You sort of have

12 overlooked September and October, when he was still

13 detained.

14 A. Well, I said I can't remember exactly the

15 month when he left, but I do know that up until that

16 time, I did go and visit him.

17 JUDGE ROBINSON: I think you must move to

18 another point now, Ms. Paterson.

19 MS. PATERSON: Yes, Your Honour.

20 Q. Now, you said that you never had contact with

21 Mirsad Sahanic after he was exchanged in November 1992;

22 is that correct?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. So you never had contact until you spoke to

25 him on the telephone in 1998; is that right?

Page 606

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Now, this is the man that you've just told us

3 was your boyfriend and you cared so much about. You

4 made no attempts, then, between 1992 and 1988 [sic] to

5 get in touch with Mirsad, to find out what happened to

6 him after he left?

7 A. Well, it was war. There was no possibility

8 of doing so.

9 Q. Well, it was war, but many people were

10 concerned about their friends and relatives and went to

11 great lengths to find out what had happened to them.

12 You did not try to find out what had happened to

13 Mirsad, did you?

14 A. I didn't know where he had gone.

15 Q. Okay. Now, you said on your direct

16 examination that you did, in fact, make a few phone

17 calls to Mirsad Sahanic in 1998 and 1999; is that

18 correct?

19 A. Yes, myself and Mr. Agnes.

20 Q. But I took time over the weekend to read

21 through your statement several times, and nowhere in

22 these five pages do I find any reference to the fact

23 that you had phone calls with Mirsad, all these phone

24 calls with Mirsad, except one reference to the fact

25 that Mr. Agnes had told you he was talking to Mirsad,

Page 607

1 but not that you had had any contact with Mirsad. Is

2 there a reason why you left that out of the statement?

3 A. No, quite simply -- well --

4 Q. You just didn't think it was important for

5 anybody to know that you had made all these phone calls

6 to Mirsad?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Now, Mirsad insists that it wasn't just two

9 or three phone calls, as you said, but he's said there

10 were many, many phone calls over the months, and that,

11 in fact, it became a problem that you were calling so

12 many times. Is Mirsad not telling us the truth about

13 that?

14 A. I called a couple of times. I don't know how

15 many times exactly, but not once, not twice, several

16 times. But exactly how many times, I don't know.

17 Q. And you said that you were actually the one

18 who gave Mirsad's phone number to Mr. Agnes; isn't that

19 correct?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And you got Mirsad's phone number by going to

22 Tuzla and talking to his mother and getting that phone

23 number from his mother; isn't that correct?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And when you went to Tuzla, you even went to

Page 608

1 the local police and asked their assistance to help you

2 locate Mirsad; isn't that right?

3 A. Yes, I asked for the address, where he was.

4 Q. And this was well before Mr. Agnes ever even

5 expressed an interest in getting in touch with Mirsad,

6 wasn't it?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. So you just coincidentally, out of the blue,

9 in the summer of 1998, this man you haven't seen since

10 1992, you don't know what happened to him, you don't

11 even know if he is alive or dead, all of a sudden you

12 decide to go to Tuzla, look up his mother, go to the

13 police, and look up his address and phone number? Is

14 that what you're saying?

15 A. I asked around where he was, and through a

16 friend in Sarajevo, I learned that he was in Tuzla, and

17 then I went to Tuzla to look for him.

18 Q. Why were you so intent on finding Mirsad?

19 A. Well --

20 Q. You just thought of him again one day, hadn't

21 thought of him in several years and just thought, "Boy,

22 I'd like to get in touch with Mirsad"?

23 A. Well, not like that. I was thinking about him

24 all the time, but I didn't have occasion to go there

25 and to find him.

Page 609

1 Q. But when you went to Tuzla and spoke to his

2 mother, his mother informed you that he was married and

3 had children, didn't she?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. In fact, you even saw pictures of he and his

6 wife and children, didn't you?

7 A. Yes, with children, yes.

8 Q. But despite the fact that he was married,

9 obviously had a new relationship, you still were quite

10 intent on getting in touch with him, weren't you?

11 A. Yes. Why not?

12 JUDGE ROBINSON: Ms. Paterson, I'm sorry to

13 interrupt you. How much longer will your

14 cross-examination be?

15 MS. PATERSON: Well, it will -- it won't be a

16 great deal longer, but it will probably go at least

17 another half an hour.

18 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Haynes, may I inquire

19 from you, what is the state of your case? How many

20 more witnesses do you have?

21 MR. HAYNES: I should have thought two.

22 JUDGE ROBINSON: We're going to take the

23 adjournment now.

24 Ms. Marosevic, you will return tomorrow at

25 2.30. In the intervening time, you are warned not to

Page 610

1 discuss your evidence with anybody.

2 We take the adjournment now until 2.30,

3 hopefully in less humid conditions.

4 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at

5 5.30 p.m., to be reconvened on Tuesday,

6 the 30th day of November, 1999, at

7 2:30 p.m.