Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 696

1 Wednesday, 1 December, 1999

2 [Rule 77 Hearing]

3 [Open session]

4 [The witness entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 2.32 p.m.

6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Will you call the case,

7 please?

8 THE REGISTRAR: Good afternoon, Your

9 Honours. Case number IT-95-9-R77.

10 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Haynes, your

11 examination-in-chief.

12 MR. HAYNES: Thank you very much, Your Honour


14 Examined by Mr. Haynes:

15 Q. Mr. Avramovic, yesterday afternoon we had

16 just moved on to the stage where you told us you were

17 telling us about collecting witness statements in

18 preparation of your defence for these proceedings. Did

19 you take a witness statement from Jasna Marosevic?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Was she, prior to making that witness

22 statement, shown any of the witness statements shown by

23 Witness Agnes?

24 A. No.

25 Q. Was she told the details of the allegations

Page 697

1 made against you and/or Mr. Simic?

2 A. No.

3 Q. Mr. Drago Vukovic, did you take a witness

4 statement from him?

5 A. Yes, but he wrote his own statement and after

6 that it was typed out.

7 Q. Was he shown any of the witness statements

8 made by Witness Agnes prior to making his witness

9 statement or indeed at any other time?

10 A. No.

11 Q. Was he told the details of the allegations

12 made against you and/or Mr. Simic?

13 A. No.

14 Q. Did you take the witness statement of

15 Mr. Goran Neskovic?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Was he either shown witness statements or

18 told of the details of the allegations made by Agnes?

19 A. No.

20 Q. And lastly, can you deal with the same issues

21 in relation to the witness Spasoje Pisarevic?

22 A. Yes. Also nothing was said to him.

23 Q. Now, I think in addition to taking witness

24 statements, you have collected a number of documents

25 from various public authorities; is that correct?

Page 698

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. In corresponding with those public

3 authorities, did you disclose Witness Agnes's real name

4 or any of the details of the allegations he made?

5 A. No. I behaved fully in compliance with the

6 ruling of the Trial Chamber.

7 Q. Now, we have seen, on a number of occasions

8 in the course of this case, a blue bag. Can you tell

9 us how it -- how you came first to know about it?

10 A. I learnt about the existence of the bag in

11 September this year or to be more precise, on the 16th

12 or the 17th, because I was away in Bosanski Samac for

13 two or three days, and I learnt about it from Ms. Jasna

14 Marosevic.

15 Q. When and where did she first bring it to

16 you?

17 A. She brought the bag to the office of my

18 colleague Spasoje Pisarevic and the investigator in the

19 Defence team for Milan Simic.

20 Q. Who was present when she brought the bag to

21 that office?

22 A. I was there, Ms. Marosevic, and my colleague

23 Tatjana Cmeric.

24 Q. Can you describe for us what took place in

25 that office at the handover of the bag?

Page 699

1 A. As the bag had been brought to the office in

2 the presence of Jasna Marosevic and Ms. Cmeric, a list

3 was made of the things it contained, and those things

4 were examined, during which Ms. Marosevic took out each

5 object, described it, and this was entered into the

6 record or the document that we have in our files. At

7 the end, Ms. Marosevic or, rather, that list was read

8 out to her and she signed it.

9 Q. Now, I want to deal firstly with the bag. I

10 wonder if you could have a look at this. Is this the

11 bag that was produced to you by Ms. Marosevic?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. What happened to the items taken from the bag

14 after they had been described by Ms. Marosevic?

15 A. Those things were placed in the bag by

16 Ms. Marosevic, as far as I can recollect, in the same

17 order in which they were shown.

18 Q. And what did you do with the bag after it was

19 handed to you by Ms. Marosevic?

20 A. After that, with the bag and the contents

21 that had been registered in the report, I took the bag

22 to my office, considering it to be evidence and

23 intending to bring it to this court.

24 Q. Did you at any time add to the contents of

25 that bag?

Page 700

1 A. No.

2 Q. Did you at any time alter or interfere with

3 any document in that bag?

4 A. No.

5 Q. Did you, in fact, bring the bag to The Hague?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. When?

8 A. A day or two prior to the beginning of the

9 hearing scheduled for the 29th of September.

10 Q. Now, the list compiled and signed by Jasna

11 Marosevic, or at last signed by Jasna Marosevic, did

12 you bring that to The Hague?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. When did you first bring it?

15 A. The same time as the bag. When I arrived in

16 The Hague, together with the other documents that I had

17 in my possession.

18 Q. Did you show the list and the bag to anybody

19 when you got to The Hague?

20 A. The bag and the list I showed to my Defence

21 counsel, Mr. Haynes.

22 Q. Since then, or since the commencement of this

23 hearing, where has the bag been stored?

24 A. The bag was brought to the Tribunal, and it

25 was in the Tribunal, as far as I can remember, from

Page 701

1 that moment, but we took it to our room during the

2 adjournment, but the contents were not in any way

3 interfered with in the meantime.

4 Q. When you say "our room", what do you mean?

5 A. I'm referring to our hotel room.

6 MR. HAYNES: Now, I do move that bag formally

7 into evidence now, the chain of custody having been

8 established.

9 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. Mr. Ryneveld.

10 MR. RYNEVELD: With respect, I'm not -- we

11 take the position that the bag has not been -- the

12 chain of custody has not been properly -- the

13 foundation for that has not been properly laid, and we

14 would oppose its being moved into evidence at this

15 point.

16 JUDGE HUNT: Where is the break in the chain,

17 if you could just point that out to me?

18 MR. RYNEVELD: With respect, it is our view

19 that Ms. Marosevic did not have continual custody of

20 the bag at all times. She said it was in her closet,

21 but we've established that there is ample opportunity

22 for persons to have access and control to the bag. We

23 would submit it's simply not appropriate at this point,

24 on the chain of custody, to have it admitted as my

25 friend now seeks to do.

Page 702

1 JUDGE HUNT: Does that not go to the weight

2 and not to the admissibility of it? What you have said

3 does go to the weight, clearly.


5 JUDGE HUNT: Does it go to the admissibility

6 of it?

7 MR. RYNEVELD: Perhaps not, in that sense.

8 JUDGE HUNT: Well, then is it not

9 admissible?

10 MR. RYNEVELD: On reflection, yes.

11 JUDGE ROBINSON: Have it admitted.

12 THE REGISTRAR: The document will be marked

13 D6.


15 Q. Just before we leave the topic of the

16 preparation of your own case, when you corresponded

17 with companies and public authorities, seeking evidence

18 from them, without being able to refer to Mr. Agnes by

19 his real name, how was it that you phrased your letters

20 to them?

21 A. I phrased my letters, in the case of certain

22 correspondence which was not relevant for the

23 proceedings, using very general wording, saying that I

24 needed a certificate. For instance, if Milan Simic's

25 firm existed in a certain building, I needed proof of

Page 703

1 that. So when taking that kind of a document which is

2 in the public domain, there was no need to give any

3 reasons because I am a lawyer and it is in my legal

4 capacity to make such a request.

5 Q. Did you place a time frame on the information

6 you sought in most cases?

7 A. Do you mean addressing the authorities, the

8 institutions from which I was seeking information? I'm

9 not sure I understood you quite.

10 Q. Yes. Did you seek information from them on

11 the basis that you wanted to know, between two certain

12 dates, whether an event had or had not happened?

13 A. Yes. In the case of certain documents which

14 were relevant for a particular time period, my request

15 mentioned that time period.

16 Q. Thank you. Now, lastly I just want to ask

17 you these few questions.

18 Have you ever driven in the middle of the

19 night to the village of Martinci?

20 A. In the course of the night, no, except that

21 once I had my return trip in the evening on the 28th.

22 But I was driving towards Belgrade, as far as I can

23 recollect. That was the return journey.

24 Q. Have you ever hung around outside Mr. Agnes'

25 house in the middle of the night --

Page 704

1 A. No.

2 Q. -- or fired shots in the air outside his

3 house?

4 A. No. Why would I?

5 Q. Have you ever asked anybody to do that on

6 your behalf?

7 A. No.

8 Q. Have you ever made phone calls to Mr. Agnes'

9 house in the middle of the night of a threatening or a

10 mysterious nature?

11 A. No, never. There was never any such need. I

12 didn't do that in the daytime. Why would I do such a

13 thing at night?

14 Q. Did you ever have the telephone number of

15 that house?

16 A. Yes, I had the number of the mobile telephone

17 of his relative. That is what I was told, that it was

18 his relative's. And I was given that telephone number

19 from Mr. Vukovic, as I have said, because he had

20 received that number.

21 Q. Did you ever put pressure on Mr. Agnes to say

22 one thing or the other about what happened in 1992?

23 A. No. There is absolutely no reason why I

24 would do that.

25 Q. Did you ever offer him the sum of 10.000

Page 705

1 Deutschmarks and a flat and a job if he was prepared to

2 give evidence?

3 A. No, never. There was absolutely no reason or

4 justification, nor did anyone ask me to do such a

5 thing.

6 MR. HAYNES: Thank you.

7 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Ryneveld.

8 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you, Your Honour.

9 Cross-examined by Mr. Ryneveld:

10 Q. Now, let me see if I understand you

11 correctly, Mr. Avramovic. You've told this Court that

12 when you took a statement from Jasna, you did not

13 explain to her at all what Mr. Agnes had alleged

14 against you or Mr. Simic; is that correct?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. And when you asked her to give a statement,

17 what did you ask her to do?

18 A. I told her that it was necessary for her, if

19 she was willing, to tell me everything she knew about

20 the contacts she had had with Mr. Agnes.

21 Q. So as far as you're concerned, she did not

22 know anything about these allegations at any stage

23 prior to coming to court today; is that correct? Or

24 coming to court yesterday, sorry.

25 A. Absolutely not, and it was -- it suited me

Page 706

1 that she shouldn't know, regardless of the ruling of

2 the Trial Chamber. It was extremely important for me

3 to be able to take such statements, not only this one

4 but others as well, without saying what was involved so

5 that I would learn everything about contacts with that

6 individual.

7 Q. Mr. Avramovic, then why is it that Jasna

8 brought the blue bag to your attention at

9 Mr. Pisarevic's office? What possible use would that

10 be to you?

11 A. During my visit in September in 1999 and

12 talking to Ms. Marosevic, an informal conversation, she

13 mentioned it to me. Until then, she had never

14 mentioned it because I hadn't asked her about it, nor

15 did I know about its existence. I just asked her about

16 the contacts she had had with Mr. Agnes, and she told

17 me about them. And then in September when I came to

18 Samac on one of my visits and when I was preparing to

19 come to The Hague, she told me that she had this bag.

20 Naturally, my reaction was to ask her to bring me that

21 bag and to ask her whether she was ready to accept us

22 making a list of the contents if that was his bag. She

23 agreed. She brought the bag to the office. In my

24 presence and my assistant, as I have said, we carried

25 out the listing of the items.

Page 707

1 Q. What possible reason would there be for you

2 to discuss Mr. Agnes with Jasna after May of this

3 year?

4 A. I have already told you a moment ago. The

5 first reason was to take the first statement for the

6 needs of the Defence.

7 The second reason was that in July, again

8 during my visit to Samac, she told me that she didn't

9 feel safe, that there were threats, that she was

10 receiving anonymous phone calls, and a statement was

11 made about that, which was then filed with this Trial

12 Chamber.

13 And finally, as you yourself mentioned, in

14 September, again during my visit, in an entirely

15 informal conversation which had nothing to do with the

16 case, she told me about the existence of this bag,

17 because she knew I had taken two statements from her,

18 but not knowing what the relevance of it was, I

19 assume.

20 Q. So the offer of the fact that she had

21 Mr. Agnes's blue bag in her cupboard, as you say, was

22 purely coincidence; is that correct?

23 A. Absolutely so. I am a witness of that.

24 Q. Just for the sake of interest, what authority

25 did you have to go through Mr. Agnes's blue bag?

Page 708

1 A. My authority emanated from the fact that I

2 have been accused in this Tribunal of certain acts, and

3 I was under the obligation to prepare my defence and

4 produce all relevant evidence to my Defence counsel. I

5 considered this to be a relevant piece of evidence and

6 that is why I took it. That is something that

7 Ms. Jasna Marosevic certainly could not have been aware

8 of.

9 Q. So your evidence, as I understand it, is that

10 Jasna brought this bag to the office of Mr. Pisarevic,

11 where you happened to be, but you, of course, have no

12 idea where it came from, just what she told you; is

13 that correct?

14 A. Certainly. I learnt about it on that day.

15 Q. That's not the question. The question is:

16 You have no idea where it came from other than what

17 Jasna told you?

18 A. She brought it from her house, because I was

19 present when she went off to her apartment to fetch the

20 bag, and we went together to Pisarevic's office.

21 Q. Sorry. I understood that you told us that

22 she brought the bag to the office where you were, but

23 now I understand that you accompanied her to her house

24 and you removed it from the closet. Is that it?

25 A. No. No. That is a misinterpretation of what

Page 709

1 I said. From the Lotos restaurant where I was sitting

2 with her, after she had told me that she had had this

3 bag, with my car and with my colleague we went to her

4 house. She climbed up to her apartment. She came back

5 to the car, and together we drove to the office. That

6 is how it was. I didn't go with her into the

7 apartment. I just waited for her. As the appropriate

8 place for doing such a thing was an office, we went to

9 the office, and she physically brought the bag to the

10 office. But the distance is perhaps 200 or 300 metres,

11 and it is on the way between the restaurant and the

12 office.

13 Q. My original question to you, sir, perhaps you

14 didn't understand my question, is: Apart from Jasna

15 telling you that she got it from her house, you have no

16 idea how it got to her house; is that right?

17 A. She told me that Mr. Agnes had left it

18 there.

19 Q. During the months of May to September, did

20 Jasna ever try to make contact with you about the

21 whereabouts of Mr. Agnes?

22 A. I don't quite understand your question.

23 Could you be kind enough to repeat it, please?

24 Q. Well, sir, as I understand your evidence, you

25 had sort of informal discussions with Jasna throughout

Page 710

1 those months, did you not?

2 A. I did.

3 Q. When you went to Bosanski Samac, I take it

4 you would visit in the Lotos Cafe and you would meet

5 with Jasna?

6 A. No. I didn't go to see her, as is known in

7 the course of the preparations for the Defence. I had

8 other tasks I had to carry out in the territory of

9 Bosanski Samac. And when I was in Bosanski Samac on

10 one or two occasions, I did drop in to see her or I met

11 her in the town itself. It is a very small town, and

12 one can hardly avoid coming across acquaintances.

13 Sometimes we met by chance, sometimes we met in the

14 cafe where she was working.

15 Q. My questions aren't complicated, I hope,

16 sir. All I really need to hear from you is whether or

17 not you met with her from time to time.

18 A. Certainly.

19 Q. During any of the those times when you met

20 with her, either formally or informally, by chance or

21 by design, did she ever ask you as to the whereabouts

22 of Mr. Agnes or whether you had heard from him?

23 A. No. During the first statement, I told her

24 to tell me everything she knew about Mr. Agnes, whereas

25 I was not in a position to convey to her any

Page 711

1 information about Mr. Agnes.

2 Q. My question was: Did she make an inquiry?

3 A. No.

4 Q. And this is despite the fact that he had

5 stayed with her for a number of times, according to her

6 evidence, and had left this blue bag with her; is that

7 right?

8 A. Mr. Ryneveld, you asked me whether from May

9 onwards -- we are talking about the period when

10 Mr. Agnes, as is known, was not in Samac, he was not

11 there -- whether I, in contact with Jasna Marosevic,

12 had spoken to her about the whereabouts of Mr. Agnes

13 and whether she had asked me about it. My answer is:

14 From the 7th or, rather, the 9th of June onwards until

15 today, in fact, I have not spoken to her about that

16 matter, nor did I give her any information along those

17 lines. That is my answer.

18 Q. Fine, Mr. Avramovic. I'll move on. Now, as

19 I understand your evidence, you admit that you went to

20 Mr. Agnes's uncle's house at Sremska Mitrovica on at

21 least a couple of occasions, did you not?

22 A. That's correct. I went to the house of the

23 relations of Mr. Agnes on the 28th of September and

24 later on in November when I went with Mr. Agnes to the

25 Mimoza Motel.

Page 712

1 Q. Is it fair to say that on those visits that

2 you made to the house that sometimes you were

3 accompanied by other people and sometimes you went

4 alone?

5 A. To the first meeting that I had on the

6 28th of September, I was accompanied by Mr. Neskovic;

7 and the following time, when I went together with him

8 to the Mimoza Motel, I went alone in my own car.

9 Q. And when you met him with Mr. Vukovic, where

10 was that?

11 A. That was in Sremska Mitrovica, in a

12 restaurant or cafe called Bingo, opposite the law

13 courts, in the sports hall.

14 Q. Your evidence is you did not go to his house

15 on that occasion?

16 A. No. No. On that occasion, we did not go to

17 his house. I didn't even know at the time where he

18 lived, so that it was only then that I learnt of the

19 village, the address, and other facts related to his

20 place of temporary residence.

21 Q. Mr. Avramovic, what kind of car do you

22 drive? Would it happen to be an Opel Ascona?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. What colour is that?

25 A. A metallic grey colour.

Page 713

1 Q. And does it have Belgrade plates?

2 A. That's correct.

3 Q. Now, I'm going to deal next, if I may, with

4 what we can refer to as the lengthy meeting with

5 Mr. Agnes, the one you described where you went to his

6 house and you took notes of that meeting. You know the

7 one I'm talking about?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. That would be your second meeting with

10 Mr. Agnes; is that correct?

11 A. That's correct.

12 Q. And just so that we've got the time frame

13 correct, this is towards the end of September, the 28th

14 of December [sic] or early October, somewhere in that

15 area?

16 A. That's correct. It was September, the 29th

17 of September.

18 Q. And you admit that you took a lot of notes on

19 that occasion; is that correct?

20 A. Well, I wouldn't say that I took a lot of

21 notes, but I did make some notes, yes, the chronology

22 of events, of facts, which he related to me on that

23 occasion.

24 Q. But you say you did not use a tape-recorder

25 on that occasion?

Page 714

1 A. During our conversation, that conversation,

2 no, I did not.

3 Q. Do you have a tape-recorder?

4 A. Well, I have an old tape-recorder/cassette

5 player in my office, and I don't think actually it

6 belongs to me personally. It was in the office, so

7 that --

8 Q. Do you ever use such a tape-recorder in the

9 course of your business and taking statements from time

10 to time?

11 A. Well, I don't use the cassette player for

12 taking statements, but I can use it and I used to use

13 it to convey some of the notes on conversations which I

14 gave to my assistant to put into the computer, to file

15 it, or to store it in some other medium. And I did

16 this too when I was a judge, for example. My verdicts,

17 my rulings when I worked in the ministry, I would

18 dictate them into a dictaphone and then hand them over

19 to my secretary to type out.

20 Q. Your evidence, though, is that you did not

21 use the tape-recorder on this occasion, even though

22 Mr. Agnes says that you did; is that correct?

23 A. I did not use a tape-recorder to talk to him

24 directly.

25 Q. Did you read back to him your notes?

Page 715

1 A. No, I did not read him anything of what I had

2 jotted down. And I said yesterday that the talk

3 between him and myself on the occasion was rather

4 confusing because we were all hurrying to get back to

5 Belgrade, and also I was aware of the fact that he

6 could not supply me with any essential data which I was

7 basically interested in, and that was why I scheduled

8 the meeting for the 28th at his house.

9 Q. Mr. Avramovic, I appreciate the fact that you

10 wish to give as full an answer as possible, but my

11 question was really quite specific. I just wanted to

12 know whether or not you used the tape-recorder, as he

13 said you did. The answer, I take it, from all of that

14 is, "No."

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Did you try to get a statement from him? Did

17 you get him to sign a statement?

18 A. No. He did not ask ...

19 Q. Did you discuss with him that you would like

20 him to give evidence in The Hague about what he had

21 told you?

22 A. No, no.

23 Q. Did you bring your notebook with you to the

24 court proceedings today?

25 A. I have several notebooks in which I record my

Page 716

1 notes on my conversations, and I think I do indeed have

2 a notebook but it is not my complete documentation

3 related to the preparation of the Defence case and the

4 conversation that I had.

5 Q. Well, Mr. Avramovic, it will probably be good

6 to know that I wasn't referring to all of your

7 notebooks about the preparation of the Defence case.

8 Quite clearly, what I'm interested in is the notebook

9 that you used to record the notes of your conversation

10 on the 28th or 29th of September with Mr. Agnes. Do

11 you have that notebook?

12 A. I do not have that notebook with me because

13 the data on the conversation with him I have not saved,

14 and I did not wish to save them.

15 Q. Do you not save notes of potential witnesses

16 that you are writing notes about? What's the purpose

17 of notes if you don't keep them?

18 A. The Defence is a process, an ongoing process,

19 and when you work on a Defence case, you collect and

20 gather information. The position of a Defence case is

21 far different from the Prosecution.

22 My method is a method of work with people,

23 which implies the gathering of information and having

24 talks and conversations with people. As you well know,

25 the territory of Bosanski Samac is a highly-sensitive

Page 717

1 area with regard to the subject matter discussed here

2 at the Tribunal, and that fact alone demands that I

3 have a process of thought rather than taking statements

4 automatically, as I can only assume that the Prosecutor

5 does when he approaches victims or when victims come to

6 them.

7 So the process of my work and the methodology

8 that I use has been conceived in such a way that I

9 gather information and have conversations and talks,

10 and what I consider to be essential I retain, what I do

11 not I get rid of, because if I were to save everything,

12 I would be buried with all the notebooks.

13 Now why do I do this? I assess the

14 information I'm given, I evaluate it, and in time, with

15 the passage of time, in the course of my work I'm able

16 to judge what I feel to be relevant and what I do not

17 feel to be relevant. And that is my general principle

18 and attitude, not only with relation to Mr. Agnes but

19 it is the way I work, and in this case as well.

20 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Avramovic, apparently

21 you're speaking too fast for the interpreter. Try to

22 slow down.

23 A. I apologise. I'll try.


25 Q. So as I understand it, you don't have any

Page 718

1 notes of this very vital conversation with Mr. Agnes.

2 Is that right?

3 A. Yes, but not only with him, not only for

4 Mr. Agnes. There are other people, and the notes

5 referring to those people I have not saved. Some of

6 them I still have with me, but I am thinking about

7 getting rid of them.

8 Q. And just so that I have it clear, you were in

9 the courtroom when Mr. Vukovic told us about a lengthy

10 discussion with Mr. Agnes on a Saturday afternoon. Do

11 you recall that?

12 A. Yes, I do recall it.

13 Q. And when he transferred the file to you, did

14 you have any notes of his conversation with Mr. Agnes

15 available?

16 A. As far as I recall, I did not save any notes,

17 nor did I receive any pertaining to that conversation,

18 other than the fact that he informed me of the contents

19 of the conversation that he had.

20 Q. So it was clear from his evidence that

21 Mr. Agnes was considered an important-enough person for

22 the Defence to know about that he accompanied you to go

23 and talk to him and introduce you to him; isn't that

24 correct?

25 A. I would say the reverse and understand

Page 719

1 Mr. Vukovic to have said the opposite.

2 Q. Well, did you or did you not go with

3 Mr. Vukovic at a time when you were introduced to

4 Mr. Agnes by Mr. Vukovic?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And you've told us, in some great detail in

7 chief, about Mr. Vukovic telling you about his

8 impressions of Mr. Agnes as a potential witness; isn't

9 that true?

10 A. That's right, before that meeting.

11 Q. So is it safe to say that he thought, at

12 least, that it was important for you to know as much as

13 you could about Mr. Agnes?

14 A. Actually, at that particular moment, as I was

15 talking over the case, at my own request he agreed that

16 I have an additional talk with Mr. Agnes because of the

17 need to ask him some things which he did not have the

18 possibility of asking him at the time, nor was he

19 interested in them, and that is the persecution. And I

20 mentioned that yesterday, and that is why that meeting

21 was scheduled, because we could contact that kind of

22 man for that purpose, as I did from October on.

23 Q. And all of this was done without the

24 assistance of any notes from Mr. Vukovic?

25 A. I said yesterday in the course of my

Page 720

1 testimony, and I'm going to repeat it here today, that

2 Mr. Vukovic's knowledge about the events talked to him

3 about by Mr. Agnes was so modest that it would not have

4 even taken up half a piece of paper, so I see no reason

5 why I should exchange any documentation on that subject

6 matter with him.

7 Q. Anyway, the long and short of it, you have no

8 notes and you don't have Mr. Vukovic's notes; correct?

9 A. I don't.

10 Q. Thank you. Did Mr. Neskovic give you his

11 notes?

12 A. Mr. Neskovic, as far as I remember, several

13 days prior to our joint visit to the village of

14 Martinci, got from me a -- in that same notebook, a

15 note of mine that I jotted down pertaining to a talk I

16 had on the 22nd of September in Sremska Mitrovica. And

17 he, as far as I recall, used that same notebook to

18 introduce certain corrections in the sense of possible

19 questions to be raised in the discussion with

20 Mr. Agnes, and I told him that I planned to hold that

21 talk. So that was also written down in my notebook.

22 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Ryneveld, could I just

23 have something clarified from the witness? He did, in

24 fact, take notes of his conversation with Mr. Agnes.

25 He doesn't have any notes now, the reason being that he

Page 721

1 got rid of the notes; is that so?

2 MR. RYNEVELD: That's what I was hoping to

3 find out. I'm not sure whether I did. I'm still

4 working on it.

5 JUDGE ROBINSON: Would you answer that?

6 A. Quite so. Quite so, Your Honour. It was

7 precisely like that, and as I said at the beginning.

8 And this isn't -- wasn't only the case with Mr. Agnes.


10 Q. We understand that. Now, just so that I'm

11 clear, you had them and you got rid of them. That's

12 it?

13 A. Absolutely so. In October or perhaps

14 somewhat later.

15 Q. Okay. Didn't Mr. Agnes, during the course of

16 that discussion you had with him, give you the names of

17 other potential witnesses that he may be able to

18 contact for you, according to your evidence?

19 A. Yes. It was a question of three witnesses,

20 and I mentioned their names yesterday.

21 Q. Would you not have taken down their names in

22 those notes?

23 A. If I do not have an address or an

24 identification or any more precise detail on

25 individuals of that kind, then I would have no reason

Page 722

1 to retain them in the notebook. And you yourself

2 say -- you talk about him as a witness, but for me he

3 was just an informer. So this was of negligible

4 importance to me. It was -- he was saying that he knew

5 those individuals.

6 Q. And you wrote the names down. Is that fair

7 to say?

8 A. You can say that on that page where I jotted

9 down the gist of our conversation, that I made a note

10 of the names. Possibly I made a note of it on the

11 lists that I looked through, whether ticking the names

12 off of the people that he remembered, that he knew;

13 although, I said yesterday that those individuals, for

14 the most part, he knew by their nicknames, and it was

15 difficult for him to reconstruct lists and help me to

16 tell me exactly which individuals were in the primary

17 school building. So I just ticked off each name as I

18 came to it, the names that he sort of seemed to

19 remember, that he remembered -- that perhaps he could

20 get in touch with. But apart from Mirsad Sahanic, he

21 did not have any details about anybody else.

22 Q. And you already knew about Mr. Sahanic?

23 A. I learnt about Mr. Sahanic from him. I

24 personally think -- I don't remember exactly, but I do

25 believe that Mr. Vukovic knew about that too. I can't

Page 723

1 be certain. But at all events, I learnt this fact, and

2 I knew about it on the 28th of September when I

3 concluded my conversation with him.

4 Q. I'm going to move on, Mr. Avramovic. We've

5 established you didn't bring a notebook with you

6 because you no longer have it. All right. How about

7 telephone bills?

8 A. No, no. I didn't say that. I didn't say

9 that. I did not say that the way you have just stated

10 it. I apologise, but I didn't put it that way.

11 Q. Well, that's what I was trying to establish,

12 Mr. Avramovic. Please correct me. Let's do it

13 one-word answers to simple questions. Do you have the

14 notebook?

15 A. I have the notebook. I have several

16 notebooks.

17 Q. Do you have the relevant notebook containing

18 the entries of your discussion with Mr. Agnes?

19 A. I do not have a notebook of that kind. I do

20 not have the pages of it, the pages pertaining the

21 conversation I had with him, and I explained this a

22 moment ago. All irrelevant data I rip out of my

23 notebook and throw them away. So they are notebooks

24 with metal bindings, and I use them for my fieldwork.

25 That's what it is.

Page 724

1 Q. All right. Let me rephrase the question,

2 because we seem to be equivocating about words. You

3 have the notebook which once contained pages upon which

4 you recorded your discussions. You have since ripped

5 out those pages but still have the balance of the

6 notebook; is that correct?

7 A. That's right. But not only about Mr. Agnes,

8 and that is the essential point; not only about

9 Mr. Agnes.

10 Q. It's not a point, sir. My point is you

11 ripped those pages out and, therefore, you cannot bring

12 them to court with you today; is that correct?

13 A. Absolutely so. Absolutely, yes.

14 Q. Phone bills. Do you get phone bills for the

15 work that you do on your defence cases?

16 A. If I understand you correctly, let me say

17 that I get telephone bills to pay from the post office,

18 which sends them in to me in Belgrade. Is that what

19 you mean? In that sense, yes, I do receive phone

20 bills, of course.

21 Q. And please help me here. Do your phone bills

22 record your long-distance charges when you call from

23 Belgrade to, say, people in Bosanski Samac or people in

24 Sremska Mitrovica or anywhere else?

25 A. Let me answer that question but let me just

Page 725

1 try to think for one moment. I do apologise. I do

2 understand you, but give me a moment to think about

3 it.

4 Two telephone lines in the office in which I

5 work are on the old exchange and cannot give you

6 recorded information of that kind. The third telephone

7 line, which was installed several months ago, has an

8 up-to-date telephone exchange which allows you to

9 receive records and reports on the telephone

10 conversations you have had. If you have that in mind,

11 then I think that what I have just answered is precise

12 and detailed information.

13 Q. So do I understand correctly that prior to a

14 few months ago, the telephone network did not give you

15 printouts of your long distance phone calls; is that

16 correct?

17 A. That is correct. Allow me to repeat once

18 again, if necessary. There are technical possibilities

19 only for one telephone line, and that exists only as of

20 recently.

21 Q. Thank you. I got that. Did you bill for

22 your work on the Defence case?

23 A. Certainly.

24 Q. Would you have billed for your trip with

25 Mr. Neskovic, with Mr. Vukovic, for your meetings with

Page 726

1 Mr. Agnes?

2 A. Regarding meetings held, in September, on the

3 22nd and the 28th of September, I think that from

4 roughly that period of time onwards I have not billed

5 for that period. In fact, I think that because those

6 trips were not carried out within the deadline set by

7 the Registry, I was unable to bill for them, but I will

8 be doing so.

9 In the case of these trips, as it is Sremska

10 Mitrovica that we are talking about, apart from bills

11 for fuel that I may have, I have no other bills that I

12 could submit to the Tribunal for reimbursement. But I

13 do not remember billing for this, though I'm not quite

14 sure.

15 Q. Mr. Avramovic, the time period that we're

16 talking about starts over a year ago; is that correct?

17 September of 1998. Is it your evidence that you have

18 not billed for your time either?

19 A. No. No. I haven't submitted bills for the

20 entire period of my engagement. If you have in mind

21 expenses, there are other things, other bills that I

22 compile on the basis my monthly activities. I'm

23 talking about bills for business trips. That I haven't

24 done, but I do have the necessary documents and I will

25 be doing it. I will be submitting them.

Page 727

1 Q. That was not my question. Pardon me for not

2 being clear. Let me be explicit. Did you bill for the

3 time incurred in all of your dealings with Mr. Agnes?

4 In other words, the hour and a half to two hours that

5 you spent at his uncle's house on the 28th or the 29th

6 of September, in the trip in the park with -- I think

7 it was Mr. Vukovic? All of the times you were spending

8 time with Mr. Agnes on this file, did you bill for

9 that?

10 A. I did submit a bill for my monthly

11 activities, and I submitted an invoice as my

12 professional engagement. If that's what you have in

13 mind, I have done that. I express this in hours spent

14 on interviews.

15 Q. Would you have itemised with which witness

16 you would have spent the time? Is it a detailed bill

17 such as "hour and a half, Mr. Agnes," and then a

18 location and a date?

19 A. Yes. I had a methodology of work prescribed

20 by the Registry, and I marked my contacts with certain

21 codes, as is customary.

22 Q. All right. I'm going to move on to another

23 topic, Mr. Avramovic. I'm conscious of the time here.

24 You told us yesterday, I believe, that

25 Mr. Agnes told you that he could testify that Milan

Page 728

1 Simic was not at the primary school; isn't that

2 correct, what you told us yesterday? It's a simple

3 question.

4 A. Yes. A very simple question. He said that

5 he had some information about events in the school and

6 that he would be ready to talk about them.

7 Q. And you told us about what he told you, that

8 his evidence would be that he did not see Mr. Milan

9 Simic at the primary school. Is that right?

10 A. Yes. In effect, yes.

11 Q. If I understood you correctly, you said that

12 that testimony was not significant, in your view.

13 A. Yes. And I explained why yesterday, and I

14 can repeat and give those reasons again.

15 Q. No. Are you telling this Chamber that you

16 felt, as the Defence counsel, that someone being able

17 to say that he didn't see Milan Simic harm anyone at

18 the primary school, in light of the charges that are

19 against him, would not be of interest to the Defence?

20 A. I apologise, but you have interpreted this in

21 your own words, and let me put it in my words. If

22 somebody says that he hadn't seen Milan Simic ever in

23 the elementary school, and Milan Simic himself says

24 that he was in the elementary school, then such a

25 testimony would be quite insignificant. In the context

Page 729

1 of other facts which I referred to yesterday, I assume

2 that you yourself would treat such a person merely as a

3 source of information and nothing more, not as a

4 witness. Nor did he sign any kind of statement about

5 it, nor did I ask him to do that.

6 Q. Mr. Avramovic, you were aware that Mr. Agnes

7 had been detained with the very people against whom it

8 is alleged that these crimes were committed in the

9 indictment; isn't that true? You knew that and

10 accepted that, did you not?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Well, if he said, since he was detained with

13 these very people, that he never saw Milan Simic at the

14 elementary school in relation to these people, wouldn't

15 that be of interest to the Defence?

16 A. No, not bearing in mind the overall picture

17 about the events that I described yesterday; that is,

18 my definite position as Defence counsel for Milan

19 Simic.

20 Q. Okay, you're the Defence counsel, sir.

21 Now, moving on to Mirsad Sahanic, you say

22 that the purpose for continuing contact with Mr. Agnes

23 was because he said he could put you in touch with

24 other witnesses; is that right? That's the only reason

25 you gave us for continued contact?

Page 730

1 A. I wouldn't call it continued contact,

2 continuous contact, but that was the reason, yes.

3 Q. Shall we say "repeated contact"?

4 A. I said yesterday two telephone calls in that

5 connection.

6 Q. Now, you've already told us that you had by

7 then decided that you would not call him as a witness;

8 is that correct?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. And therefore his only purpose would be to

11 locate these other witnesses for you?

12 A. Exactly.

13 Q. Did I understand you correctly yesterday that

14 when you were at the meeting at his uncle's house and

15 he told you the names of a number of these other

16 witnesses and that he may be able to locate them for

17 you, that you told him that you would leave it up to

18 him to decide whether he wanted to do that or not?

19 A. Certainly.

20 Q. Here we have a witness who is offering you up

21 these names on a silver platter, and you're saying to

22 him, "You don't have to. It's up to you, if you

23 choose." Is that your evidence?

24 A. Absolutely so. I mustn't exert any pressure

25 even on a source.

Page 731

1 Q. That's not pressure, sir. Wouldn't you jump

2 at the chance of getting him to; "Hey, by all means, by

3 all means"?

4 A. Why would I insist on it? It is up to his

5 free will to do it or not.

6 Q. Yes. So --

7 A. I hope we understand one another. It is up

8 to him to decide whether he wishes to get in touch with

9 somebody. I explained that yesterday, and I would like

10 to make that very clear, that he himself told me that

11 such contacts were an extremely delicate matter and

12 that he would try. He offered to do it. But he added

13 that it would be difficult to achieve. And why should

14 I then, knowing that, having been told that, insist on

15 something that he said himself was a sensitive matter

16 and which I know to be sensitive even if he hadn't told

17 me?

18 Q. So do I take it, then, that not only did you

19 not exert any pressure on him to give you a statement,

20 but you also cautioned him that he needn't do what he

21 offered to do unless he really wanted to do it; is that

22 right?

23 A. That is how I deal with everybody. That is

24 my approach.

25 Q. Now, I think I asked you this moments ago.

Page 732

1 Mirsad Sahanic, you said you heard his name for the

2 first time from Mr. Agnes?

3 A. Yes. As far as I can remember, that was on

4 the 28th of September when we had that conversation.

5 Q. You're aware, are you not, sir, that Jasna

6 had already contacted Mirsad Sahanic, are you not?

7 A. No. At that point in time, no.

8 Q. Hadn't Jasna already given you his name and

9 address and phone number?

10 A. No.

11 Q. You now know that she was the one that got

12 the phone number in Tuzla?

13 A. Yes. I learned that later.

14 Q. In fact, as it turned out, Mr. Agnes didn't

15 know where Mirsad lived, did he?

16 A. He told me on the 28th, I remember that well,

17 that he thinks that he lives in Tuzla or, rather, that

18 his family is in Tuzla and that he is somewhere

19 abroad. I don't remember whether he said Germany or

20 some other country, but that he had been told something

21 to that effect. That I knew.

22 Q. You were in the courtroom when both Jasna and

23 Mr. Agnes told the Court that he got the phone number

24 from Jasna; he had no idea where he was?

25 MR. RYNEVELD: I see my friend on his feet.

Page 733

1 MR. HAYNES: I've studied the transcripts

2 with some care, and the assertion that Mr. Agnes told

3 the Court that he got the phone number from Jasna is

4 misleading. I can draw my friend's attention to the

5 passages where Mr. Agnes deals with this particular

6 question.

7 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Ryneveld.

8 MR. RYNEVELD: I'm not sure if it's necessary

9 at this point, if my friend tells me the words are

10 somewhat different. I've paraphrased my understanding

11 of the evidence, but I'm going to move on.

12 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you.


14 Q. Sir, did you at any time encourage Jasna to

15 make contact with Mirsad?

16 A. No. Talking to Jasna in October, I learned

17 that Agnes knew Mirsad and that if he had promised to

18 get in touch with him, he could do so. More than that,

19 Jasna and me, we did not talk about that. At that

20 time, I did not get from Jasna any information about

21 her having a telephone number, or being in touch with

22 him, or anything else linked to Mirsad Sahanic.

23 Q. When did you find out that Jasna and

24 Mr. Agnes had Mirsad's phone number?

25 A. I didn't learn that throughout the period

Page 734

1 while I was working on Mr. Milan Simic's Defence,

2 except that talking to Mr. Agnes at his request at the

3 end of the year, I learned that he had learned that

4 Mirsad was coming to Tuzla. Where he got the telephone

5 number from, whether he personally found out or someone

6 else, I didn't ask him and I wasn't interested in

7 learning.

8 Q. You were encouraging Mr. Agnes to contact

9 Mirsad, weren't you?

10 A. I wasn't encouraging him. He offered to do

11 so if I thought it necessary.

12 Q. Did you think it necessary?

13 A. Certainly it would have been useful, I felt,

14 to get in touch with anyone who had been detained in

15 the primary school, and therefore including Mirsad

16 Sahanic. If he were willing and if he were to be a

17 credible witness, certainly.

18 Q. You needed Mr. Agnes to contact Mirsad and

19 lure him into Bosnia, didn't you?

20 A. Yes. He was my source.

21 Q. And you're telling us that you were not aware

22 that Jasna was also trying to contact Mirsad and lure

23 him, through whatever ways she had of luring Mirsad,

24 back to Bosnia?

25 A. No, never, until these contempt hearings

Page 735

1 started.

2 Q. Sir, do you know whether calls from the

3 Republika Srpska to Germany are expensive?

4 A. I really couldn't give you a reliable answer

5 because the prices differ from those in Serbia, I'm

6 quite sure. I don't know how much they cost.

7 Q. Long-distance phone calls are generally quite

8 expensive, are they not, sir, in the area where you

9 live?

10 A. Yes, certainly they are expensive. We must

11 agree on that. It depends, of course, how long they

12 are.

13 Q. Was it clear, from your discussions with

14 Mr. Vukovic, that Jasna was doing everything she could

15 to assist in the Defence of Mr. Milan Simic's case?

16 A. That was never my impression, nor was that

17 what Mr. Vukovic conveyed to me, nor did I get that

18 impression from my few meetings with Ms. Marosevic, not

19 the kind of impression you have just described.

20 Q. Then why, sir, would you have contact with

21 Agnes through Jasna Marosevic?

22 A. The contact was established through Jasna

23 Marosevic for the benefit of my colleague Drago

24 Vukovic. That is an established fact. Later on, all

25 my contacts with Mr. Agnes were direct between the two

Page 736

1 of us in the scope which I described yesterday. I do

2 not see why Jasna Marosevic would be somebody I would

3 need from then on as a person for contact, if I

4 understand you well.

5 Q. So you deny that she was a contact between

6 you and Mr. Agnes on many occasions?

7 A. We have to be very precise when talking about

8 these things. The contact I had with her in October

9 was a logical follow-up of my needs to talk to a person

10 who knew him personally, and she was such a person.

11 Drago Vukovic told me that, to talk to her about

12 certain things linked to the credibility of Mr. Agnes

13 and to collect information about that. From then on,

14 my contacts were direct, as I described them

15 yesterday. And never did I engage Ms. Jasna Marosevic

16 for that purpose, nor did I make any particular

17 requests of her.

18 To be quite frank, I saw her only a couple of

19 times throughout that period. Do not forget that I had

20 a great deal of work to do, and I didn't have time,

21 among the many contacts I had to make, for this

22 particular contact which I'm not going to say was not

23 interesting, but it was not overly significant. I had

24 other sources of information, and I still have other

25 sources.

Page 737

1 Q. Well, sir, we know of at least a number of

2 occasions where Jasna was present during your dealings

3 with Mr. Agnes, one of which was in the Cafe Lotos that

4 she testified to a day or two ago, when she sat down

5 and had a drink with you and you moved off with Mr.

6 Agnes to another office. That was one occasion;

7 correct?

8 A. Yes. You're talking about April. About

9 April. Yes. Correct.

10 Q. And you had a meeting with Jasna over the

11 blue bag. You've told us about that today.

12 A. Yes, but that was not the context of the

13 contempt hearing. This is another case altogether.

14 Q. And you've heard Mr. Agnes tell the Court

15 about all the contacts that he had allegedly with you

16 and/or Mr. Simic in Jasna's presence. You heard him

17 tell the Court about those instances. You deny those?

18 A. Yes, indeed I heard it. I'm not only denying

19 it but I think the whole impression given is like fata

20 morgana. I really don't know where such an image came

21 from.

22 JUDGE HUNT: What do you mean by that, sir?

23 What do you mean by that expression. I think it was

24 "fata morgana."

25 A. I apologise, Your Honour. As the Prosecutor

Page 738

1 somehow prompted me to say that I had listened to the

2 testimony of Mr. Agnes, and everything I heard that

3 relates to our mutual contacts is so unreal and so full

4 of various numbers, dates, meetings, that it appears to

5 be a product of a fanciful imagination. And I

6 apologise for using this expression. Maybe it's not

7 the best.

8 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Ryneveld, maybe on this

9 note we could take a break.

10 MR. RYNEVELD: Yes. Absolutely.

11 JUDGE ROBINSON: Before we take a break,

12 Judge Hunt.

13 JUDGE HUNT: Mr. Haynes, are you going to

14 tender the interview which Mr. Simic had with the

15 Prosecution that was referred to in the evidence

16 yesterday?

17 MR. HAYNES: I don't believe so, no.

18 JUDGE HUNT: Well, what do we do, we just

19 accept that that is stated there, do we?

20 MR. HAYNES: Well, it may well be there is

21 some means of accommodation.

22 JUDGE HUNT: I don't mean the whole but --

23 MR. HAYNES: No. No.

24 JUDGE HUNT: -- I think it may be important

25 the way it was said or the context in which it was

Page 739

1 said, because my recollection was your client, your

2 current witness, said that Mr. Simic had stated to the

3 Prosecution that he had been at the elementary school

4 on one occasion.

5 MR. HAYNES: That's correct.

6 JUDGE HUNT: Well, I think, if I may say so,

7 it might help us if we saw the context in which that

8 was said.

9 MR. HAYNES: Yes. It may well be that that's

10 not achievable in a practical form until tomorrow.

11 JUDGE HUNT: Yes. That's why we're raising

12 it now.

13 MR. HAYNES: Thank you very much.

14 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Haynes, just to clarify,

15 do you have one more witness after Mr. Avramovic?

16 MR. HAYNES: Yes, there is one more witness.

17 Then I shall move documents into evidence that have

18 already been filed, but we've put them in a more

19 digestible and comprehensible form, and then we will

20 have to consider whether the evidence of Mr. Spasoje

21 Pisarevic is in an admissible form as an affidavit or,

22 rather, statement. I know there is an amendment to

23 that Rule, that I've just seen this morning, and that

24 should conclude the --

25 JUDGE HUNT: The amendment to the Rule,

Page 740

1 unfortunately, does not come into operation until next

2 Monday, and the Prosecution has already taken the

3 somewhat technical view that we are bound by the Rules

4 of Procedure and Evidence as they presently stand.

5 MR. HAYNES: Well, it may well be, therefore,

6 that we have to consider briefly whether the evidence

7 of Mr. Spasoje Pisarevic is currently in the form of an

8 affidavit, because I think the crucial difference

9 between the two Rules is the addition of the phrase

10 "some form of statement." I don't have the Rule

11 currently before me.

12 JUDGE HUNT: The Rule is amended to take into

13 account what we were informed was the absence of any

14 affidavits or any procedure for taking affidavits in

15 the former Yugoslavia. The answer may be, of course,

16 if the Prosecution really wants to rely on such a

17 technicality, to withhold and tender it after next

18 Monday.

19 MR. HAYNES: That's very helpful.

20 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Ryneveld?

21 MR. RYNEVELD: Perhaps I may have some

22 clarification. I'm not quite clear on Judge Hunt's

23 comment on the technical view that --

24 JUDGE HUNT: It was a document which was

25 filed yesterday in other proceedings in this trial, in

Page 741

1 which we had suggested that we should hear an

2 application for provisional release upon the basis that

3 the Rule which has been amended -- we took that into

4 account but gave our decision after the Rule had been,

5 in fact, amended and come into operation.

6 There is a very solemn and long and rather

7 dreary document filed in which we are reminded solemnly

8 that we are bound by the Rules as they currently

9 stand. That's why I described it as a somewhat

10 technical point.

11 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you. Just so that I was

12 clear. I was at a loss in terms of something that

13 perhaps I or my colleagues said during the course of

14 this aspect of the case.

15 JUDGE HUNT: No, but your colleagues have

16 signed the document. They'll explain it to you.

17 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you. But now I

18 understand that this is something -- thank you.

19 JUDGE ROBINSON: Happily, you're not involved

20 in those proceedings.

21 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you very much. I was a

22 bit taken at a loss in terms of what I had done to --

23 thank you.

24 JUDGE HUNT: Not so much at a loss as we were

25 when the point was taken.

Page 742

1 JUDGE ROBINSON: We will take the adjournment

2 for 20 minutes.

3 --- Recess taken at 4 p.m.

4 --- On resuming at 4.27 p.m.

5 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Ryneveld.

6 MR. RYNEVELD: Yes, Your Honours. Prior to

7 proceeding with the cross-examination, if I may, may I

8 clarify the position that I would like to take as

9 senior trial attorney on this aspect of the case with

10 respect to my friend's submission as to the

11 introduction of the document from Mr. Pisarevic, I

12 believe it was, Spasoje Pisarevic.

13 I have absolutely no concern or problem with

14 that document being entered. As a matter of fact, I

15 believed, when I asked for the motion yesterday by way

16 after housekeeping motion, that all of the documents

17 that had been filed. It was my understanding that that

18 document, having already been filed, would be one of

19 the documents that would be moved into evidence. So

20 just so that I'm clear, I'm not taking a technical

21 approach to the introduction of that document. We're

22 quite content to have it moved in.

23 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you. I see you are in

24 your role as Minister of Justice. Please continue.

25 JUDGE HUNT: You are commended.

Page 743

1 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you, Your Honour. If I

2 may now proceed.

3 Q. I'm going to shorten my cross-examination,

4 I'm sure you will be happy to know, but there are a

5 couple of areas I want to still touch upon. I will

6 also try and speak closer to the microphone. I

7 understand they're having difficulty hearing me.

8 Now, sir, you've told us that Mr. Agnes

9 offered you his assistance in finding witnesses for

10 Milan Simic. Isn't that correct? It was his offer?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Sir, why do you think he would do that? I

13 mean, you know that he was detained by the Serbs in

14 Bosanski Samac for a number of months, and you know

15 that it's alleged that Mr. Milan Simic was one of the

16 people who was there at the camp; correct?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Why would Mr. Agnes possibly come forward to

19 offer to testify for someone linked to his captors? As

20 Milan Simic's lawyer, does that make sense to you?

21 A. His wish to tell the Defence team of Milan

22 Simic everything that he knew about the primary school

23 was not anything strange for me. I didn't at any

24 time -- regardless of the reasons that you have just

25 brought up, which can be put forward with a lot of

Page 744

1 argument that an individual of that kind should not

2 talk to the Defence counsel for Milan Simic, and that

3 is what I came to understand when Mr. Vukovic conveyed

4 to me the conversation he had had, that he did so

5 voluntarily and wished to state what he stated to him

6 and subsequently to me, it did not appear to me to be

7 especially unusual, that is to say, that somebody who

8 had been in the primary school should tell the Defence

9 team something, of course, unless he was a Prosecution

10 witness.

11 As far as I was able to see from the list of

12 individuals, there were lots of people who were not

13 Prosecution witnesses, that is to say, people who had

14 been detained in the primary school building and who

15 would come forward to testify about the events that had

16 taken place in the primary school. This wasn't

17 strange -- didn't appear strange to me, particularly in

18 view of the fact that for a given length of time, he

19 had lived in the Republika Srpska. And I felt that

20 this was acceptable, it was acceptable for me to hear

21 him out.

22 Q. So you found nothing surprising about a

23 victim coming forward offering to assist one of the

24 people who were his captors; is that correct?

25 A. Let me be quite frank in answering your

Page 745

1 question. There are many people who can be considered

2 victims who will, nonetheless, be witnesses testifying

3 here. At least I can only assume that there will be.

4 Q. But in terms of Mr. Agnes, what was in it for

5 him; a job, an apartment, money maybe?

6 A. No, absolutely not. It was a friendly

7 relationship coming from Ms. Marosevic, from a circle

8 of friends, from the people she herself knew

9 personally, and that's what Mr. Drago Vukovic told me.

10 And later on this really did turn out to be so.

11 Possibly the motives were related to Ms. Jasna

12 Marosevic, but I didn't delve into the motives more

13 deeply. But as I say, it wasn't a great surprise to me

14 that somebody did offer to come forward and tell the

15 Defence something about it.

16 Q. Before I move on to the next topic, I'm just

17 reminded, sir, that yesterday you said something about

18 you had checked with a number of people about

19 Mr. Agnes, including Prosecution witnesses, and I

20 remember I objected at that point in time about the

21 source of your information. Who were those Prosecution

22 witnesses that you referred to? Could we have their

23 names?

24 A. Ah, that was completely incorrect. It was a

25 completely erroneous understanding on your part about

Page 746

1 what I was talking about yesterday, what I said here

2 yesterday.

3 No, they were not my contacts at all with the

4 Prosecution witnesses. I said something quite

5 different, and I want you to understand that in very

6 precise terms and that it be recorded in the

7 transcript, that searching for the need to inform

8 myself on certain issues which were to have given me a

9 full picture and allow me to decide upon the status of

10 Mr. Agnes, I had a certain number of talks in the town

11 of Samac very shortly afterwards. These were not

12 Prosecution witnesses. Quite the contrary. They were

13 citizens who live in Samac to this day and who know

14 Mr. Agnes, and it is from those sources that I received

15 additional information. And one of these pieces of

16 information was the piece I brought up here yesterday,

17 and that is that there was knowledge to the fact that

18 Mr. Agnes, during his detention period, was in conflict

19 with other detainees. And he himself told me that the

20 local -- if I can use that word -- detainees from Samac

21 were not very nice to people who had come in from

22 elsewhere, from other territories or from other towns,

23 and it was in that sense that it seems he had a

24 conflict with them. And according to the information

25 that I received, it boiled down to the fact that a

Page 747

1 number of these detainees or several individuals beat

2 him up or quarrelled with him with respect to certain

3 events that had taken place during the detention

4 period.

5 And so I followed along this logically and

6 thought that if these individuals were possibly

7 witnesses for the Prosecution, because I didn't know

8 who these individuals were, then quite certainly

9 Mr. Agnes, as a Defence witness, would not be credible

10 because possibly people could have known this and then

11 checked out the credibility of my witness, for example,

12 if I were to put him forward. So it is in that context

13 that I said what I did yesterday.

14 So it is a piece of information that reached

15 me. Of course, it need not be a correct piece of

16 information. But on the basis of that information, I

17 was able to make a decision as to the credibility of

18 somebody who would one day make me a statement and that

19 I could perhaps put forward as a potential witness for

20 Mr. Milan Simic. So that is the essence of what I was

21 trying to say yesterday here in this courtroom.

22 Q. So is that a long way of telling me you don't

23 have the names of witnesses for me?

24 A. The witnesses that I received information

25 from, you mean? Well, I can, of course, give you

Page 748

1 them. There isn't a problem there. But I see no

2 reason why I should here.

3 Let me be quite frank. I'll tell the Trial

4 Chamber -- I'm willing to tell the Trial Chamber

5 everything. One of the people I talked to was my

6 investigator, Mr. Spasoje Pisarevic, who had this kind

7 of information given him, and he drew my attention to

8 it. Of course, he did not check it out either, and

9 that is why I said that it was a piece of information

10 which need not be true, need not be correct. But it

11 allowed me to make my own conclusions.

12 And I had some other very strong arguments

13 leading me to decide that I should treat this

14 individual as an informer and not as a witness or

15 potential witness. So that is what I know about that

16 subject. I had quite a number of talks with people in

17 Samac, you know.

18 Q. Your source of information wasn't independent

19 witnesses at all; it was your investigator and it was

20 rumour and innuendo?

21 A. Well, it's like this: I make my own

22 decisions on the basis of the evidence that I have at

23 my disposal. But when I paint a picture of something,

24 then you can believe me that I can also paint a picture

25 on the basis of rumours and innuendo. However, if

Page 749

1 rumour and innuendo were the sole source of

2 information, then I probably wouldn't have brought in

3 that kind of decision.

4 But I heard what I heard from Ms. Jasna

5 Marosevic, and I checked out my information in the

6 field, and all this indicated that an individual of

7 that kind could not be a credible witness in the

8 Defence case for Mr. Milan Simic, and so I made a

9 definite decision and severed all further contacts with

10 him in treating him as a potential witness in the case

11 before this Tribunal. So that is what I can tell you

12 about that particular matter at this particular point.

13 MR. RYNEVELD: Sir, I want to move on to

14 another area.

15 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation]

16 Mr. Ryneveld, I should like you to ask the witness.

17 The witness has told us that he decided at a certain

18 point in time not to use Mr. Agnes anymore as a witness

19 due to the absence of credibility that he thought he

20 had and decided to use him as an informer, as a source

21 of information. Could you ask the witness what

22 prompted him to use Mr. Agnes as an informer?

23 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you, Your Honour. I

24 will.

25 Q. Sir, you've heard His Honour's question. I

Page 750

1 will repeat it. What prompted you to use Mr. Agnes as

2 an informer, if not any longer as a witness?

3 A. I'll give you a brief answer, although I do

4 believe that I spoke about that yesterday.

5 I had several pieces of information given to

6 me by Mr. Agnes which indicated that it was an

7 individual -- I was dealing with an individual whom I

8 could not believe, whose credibility I could not

9 believe in.

10 He told me himself that he had two names, one

11 name which he used during his sojourn in the Republika

12 Srpska and the other name which he used while he was in

13 Serbia. He himself told me that he had changed his

14 name in a way as he put before this Tribunal, although

15 I think when he told me about this change of name, he

16 said he changed his religion as well, that is to say,

17 that he changed his religion in church. And he also

18 told me that he was a refugee.

19 Now, I can consider myself highly competent

20 at least in that area, because in the course of my

21 professional life and work, I drew up and drafted rules

22 and regulations relating to that subject matter and I

23 knew that that was a lie.

24 When he told me this, I knew for a fact that

25 he had lied to me or he was lying to me, because he

Page 751

1 could not have been able to do that officially, above

2 board, he could not have done that; not because he was

3 a Muslim but because no individual who was a refugee in

4 Serbia, even if he was a Serb or any other nationality,

5 could change his surname, because refugees are not

6 entitled to avail themselves of the right to change

7 their surname. This can only be done by citizens --

8 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation]

9 Mr. Avramovic, you're moving away from the question.

10 We already have a full page of the transcript on the

11 screen, at least, without me getting an answer to my

12 question.

13 What made you, once you decided not to use

14 Mr. Agnes as a witness -- that we have understood, but

15 you maintained contact with him after that -- what was

16 it that prompted you to use him as a source of

17 information, and which kind of information did you

18 expect from him, and did you get that information from

19 him? That is the gist of the question.

20 A. Yes, I understand you, Your Honour. I would

21 merely like, as the Prosecutor has just asked me, to

22 tell you of some details which made me decide that I

23 wouldn't use him. First, the fact that he had

24 committed a criminal offence on the territory of the

25 Republika Srpska; next the fact that he was in the army

Page 752

1 of the Republika Srpska and for unknown reasons had

2 stepped down from it; also the fact that

3 Ms. Marosevic --

4 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] No, I have

5 to interrupt you. That was not what I wanted. We

6 already have all that information. The Tribunal has

7 heard all that through the very testimony and

8 cross-examination of Mr. Agnes himself, so there's no

9 point in repeating that for a second or third time.

10 You yourself, you're testifying now. Mr. Agnes has

11 already testified.

12 Why did you decide to use Mr. Agnes as an

13 informer, and what information did you expect to get

14 from him?

15 A. My decision to take him on as an informer was

16 exclusively guided by his proposal and desire to get me

17 in touch with the individuals whom I had ascertained

18 he, in fact, could get me in touch with. For that, you

19 don't need credibility of any kind. So my sources of

20 information are also criminals or people who have been

21 convicted of certain offences, and I expected that he

22 could perhaps give me some information related to

23 another contact that he could schedule for me, which he

24 did not do. He did not put me in touch with anybody.

25 This does not mean that I need not -- that I would not

Page 753

1 perhaps decide to call him as a witness one day in the

2 proceedings here. So I think that that would be my

3 answer to the question posed by Your Honour.

4 MR. RYNEVELD: So following up from that --

5 sorry.

6 JUDGE BENNOUNA: Thank you.


8 Q. Following up from that, Mr. Avramovic, you

9 are quite content to use an unreliable, as you put it,

10 informer; is that right?

11 A. Well, an informer is somebody who can be very

12 unreliable but who can give you a piece of information

13 which you check out later on. It's a contact man,

14 somebody who puts you in touch with somebody else, who

15 informs you about something, and it is up to you to

16 determine the truth of the information you've been

17 given. So an informer is a well-known category in any

18 proceedings and in preparing a defence case as well.

19 Q. And I take it informers are usually rewarded

20 for their efforts, aren't they?

21 A. It depends what subject and before what

22 organs and institutions. If you're thinking about

23 informers officially working for certain services, then

24 I can only assume that they are remunerated for their

25 work, depending on the service which has engaged those

Page 754

1 individuals to provide them with information. But when

2 we're talking about a defence case, this is done on a

3 voluntary basis, absolutely, and something which is

4 left to the personal discretion of the individual,

5 whether he wishes to do so or not. So you must behave

6 towards these individuals according to the book and

7 according to the principle of voluntariness. And if

8 they wish to do so, they do; and if they don't, they

9 don't.

10 Q. And Mr. Agnes was going to do this from the

11 goodness of his heart for one of the people who was

12 present when he was detained; is that it?

13 A. I cannot enter into his motives, nor can I

14 explain his motives fully. I said a moment ago that

15 his motives could be through the friendship that he had

16 with Ms. Marosevic. Why shouldn't an individual, quite

17 simply, be held in that status regardless of whether he

18 was a detainee? That is my view, and that is what I

19 decided to do in October 1998.

20 Q. I'll move on. Sir, you've told us that you

21 shared office space with Mr. Pantelic and Mr. Vukovic,

22 is that correct, in Belgrade?

23 A. Yes. But there's some other colleagues -- I

24 apologise, yes.

25 Q. There were some other colleagues. Okay. You

Page 755

1 would share office space, share expenses, share phone

2 lines, share secretarial maybe?

3 A. Well, you could say that the majority of the

4 things you enumerated, the sort of logistics of it, are

5 shared.

6 Q. But you have separate practices?

7 A. Absolutely so.

8 Q. But in a collegial setting, would you help

9 each other out? For example, if somebody was sick or

10 on holidays or tied up in trial, would you assist each

11 other with each other's cases?

12 A. In practice, we can always ask for a

13 replacement of any lawyer who is not able to attend

14 trials. In concrete terms, I always can and have the

15 right to ask somebody -- some of my colleagues to

16 replace me in a trial and that is something that we

17 avail ourselves of, but we always take an expert,

18 theoretically viewed, and hypothetically. I'm

19 answering your question hypothetically.

20 For example, if somebody who could replace me

21 was in my own environment, then I would ask him to

22 replace me at a trial or anything else, at some

23 proceedings before a court.

24 Q. Mr. Avramovic, the questions I'm about to

25 pose to you are not technical, they're not

Page 756

1 hypothetical, and I'm going to direct them

2 specifically.

3 Did you have the kind of working relationship

4 with your colleagues, your -- I won't call them

5 partners because that has another legal expression, but

6 with your colleagues in practice, that you would assist

7 each other?

8 A. I wouldn't put it that way. I think that we

9 all worked for ourselves as individual private

10 practices.

11 Q. But you knew about each other's cases?

12 A. Well, we would socialise, of course, outside

13 the office as well, and we would exchange information

14 about our clients or potential cases which we decided

15 to take on. We're friends, yes.

16 Q. And Milan Simic's case was one of those cases

17 that you discussed?

18 A. If you have in mind the defence of Milan

19 Simic, then myself and Drago Vukovic were involved in

20 that case from the very beginning, and when I was

21 officially appointed his assistant, we did talk about

22 it, yes.

23 Q. Mr. Pantelic knew what you were up to as

24 well, didn't he?

25 A. He did, of course, know the case that I was

Page 757

1 involved in.

2 Q. And would you discuss the names of potential

3 witnesses with your colleagues?

4 A. Well, in exchanging information about our

5 work and in exchanging the knowledge that we came by

6 sometimes, it would be possible sometimes to impart

7 information about potential witnesses as well or

8 individuals which could give you information. I would

9 tell that to my colleague Mr. Pisarevic were that

10 relevant for his client.

11 Q. Sure. Now, I suggest to you, sir, that you

12 had discussions with Mr. Agnes about a rehearsal

13 programme that you wanted him to attend, didn't you? A

14 rehearsal of evidence.

15 A. A rehearsal of testimony that I heard for the

16 first time through his statements. That is when I

17 first learned that type of terminology; that is to say,

18 between myself and Mr. Agnes it was never a topic of

19 discussion, nor was I able to understand what it

20 meant.

21 Q. Well, didn't you discuss with him that there

22 would be a time when he would come for a week and

23 someone would pretend to be a Prosecutor and someone

24 would pretend to be a Defence counsel and his evidence

25 would be rehearsed? Didn't that happen?

Page 758

1 A. No. We never discussed that.

2 Q. Well, sir, Mr. Agnes is not a lawyer, is he?

3 To your knowledge.

4 A. That's right.

5 Q. How would he know about such a programme of

6 rehearsed evidence unless someone had talked to him

7 about that?

8 MR. HAYNES: I think I am going to object to

9 that question.

10 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Ryneveld, I think that's

11 more in the form of a comment.

12 MR. RYNEVELD: Well, it's a comment that I

13 would ask the witness to -- yes, you're right. Sorry.

14 JUDGE ROBINSON: I think it's a matter for us

15 to make that assessment.

16 MR. RYNEVELD: You're right. Well, let me go

17 on.

18 Q. Now, at the time when all of this occurred

19 in, say, April and May, there was a scheduled trial

20 date for this case, was there not, the 22nd of June?

21 Do you recall?

22 A. Yes. At that time in May, at a conference

23 which was held, I think, on the 27th, 8th, or 9th of

24 April, a trial date had been set for the 23rd, I think,

25 of June. Yes. I remember that quite well. That was

Page 759

1 the first time I learnt that the trial would begin.

2 Q. Sir, I'd suggested to you that you had, in

3 fact, discussed with Mr. Agnes, that there was such a

4 programme of rehearsal and that your colleagues knew

5 about it. I suggested that to you and you denied it;

6 is that correct?

7 A. I absolutely deny something I never talked

8 about nor discussed. And at the end, when I learnt

9 about the trial, I didn't see that man again.

10 Q. Sir, did you listen to the tape of the

11 telephone conversation of the 10th of May, 1999, where

12 there is a discussion with your colleague Mr. Pantelic,

13 followed by a discussion with you? Did you listen to

14 that tape, all of it?


16 MR. HAYNES: We dealt with this, and that

17 portion of the tape is not part of the evidence in this

18 case.

19 MR. RYNEVELD: My response is: Not yet.

20 It's now quite clearly an issue of credibility, and I'm

21 about to launch my cross-examination of this witness on

22 the basis of the foundation which I have just laid on

23 the issue of credibility of an extremely significant

24 issue, that there is reference in the portion of the

25 tape referring to a programme. Mr. Pantelic, in that

Page 760

1 tape, actually talks about the timing of the programme

2 being changed, and he calls him by the name "Daki."

3 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Mr. Haynes,

4 if my recollection is correct, you yourself, in your

5 examination of this witness, you referred to this

6 conversation, and it is normal, it is quite pertinent

7 for the cross-examination to refer to it. I think that

8 this kind of objection should not be repeated

9 frequently. The cross-examination fits within the

10 framework of the examination-in-chief, even if it has

11 not been admitted into evidence.

12 I think that you should not raise this kind

13 of objection.

14 MR. HAYNES: Well, I'm sorry if anything in

15 my examination-in-chief was misleading or was not easy

16 to follow, but I think Your Honour will find that the

17 telephone conversation I referred to was the one

18 between Mr. Agnes and Mr. Avramovic and only that

19 conversation, and there can be no sensible suggestion

20 that that is inadmissible, and I do not suggest it's

21 inadmissible, and if he needs to be cross-examined

22 about that, then he can be. But we're now moving into

23 an area where the conversation referred to is between

24 Mr. Agnes and a third party.

25 JUDGE HUNT: That's the problem. You see, it

Page 761

1 was excluded before, or at least it was not admissible

2 because it looked as if it was seeking to involve

3 Mr. Pantelic in some form of contempt, and that had

4 been a matter that had been dealt with at some earlier

5 stage.

6 Well, this evidence now goes in as a fact

7 relevant to credit, not to show that Mr. Pantelic has

8 been guilty of contempt but to show there was some

9 discussion about a rehearsal. Why is it not admissible

10 as hearsay evidence?

11 MR. HAYNES: I say it's not admissible

12 because it's a conversation between Mr. Agnes and a

13 third party, and --

14 JUDGE HUNT: So what?

15 MR. HAYNES: Well, it's not something upon

16 which this witness can properly comment.

17 JUDGE HUNT: No. No, no. He's not being

18 asked to comment on the fact of the conversation but

19 the truth of what was said.

20 MR. HAYNES: Then that would make it pure

21 hearsay.

22 JUDGE HUNT: If he says he knows nothing

23 about it, that's the end of the cross-examination, but

24 it would not make the rest of the tape inadmissible.

25 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Haynes, we have

Page 762

1 considered this matter. We think that there is a

2 sufficient foundation for the question.

3 MR. HAYNES: Well, I think we better think

4 about the practicality of this then, because at the

5 moment, we, none of us, have heard it in evidence in

6 this case, nor seen any transcript of it in any

7 language. It's simply not part of the evidence. It

8 hasn't been moved into evidence.

9 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Ryneveld?

10 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you, Your Honour. The

11 tape is primed and ready to go. I have transcripts of

12 it, and the original transcript, I believe, has already

13 been filed and is in evidence before this Court.

14 JUDGE HUNT: Well, I don't know. I haven't

15 seen the documents that came in with that tender. But

16 it's certainly a document that I have seen.

17 MR. RYNEVELD: Yes. And my friends have a

18 copy of the tape -- my friends have a copy of the tape

19 itself. They've heard the entire tape. They've had

20 this for quite some time.

21 MR. HAYNES: No. I wasn't seeking to suggest

22 that as a matter of fact this had not been disclosed, I

23 was seeking to discover how this is going to affect the

24 course of these proceedings, whether it is to be

25 adduced as evidence now or as some form of rebuttal in

Page 763

1 due course, and of course it raises the very obvious

2 possibility if not probability that the Defence will be

3 calling a further witness.

4 JUDGE ROBINSON: We'll come to that.

5 Mr. Ryneveld, proceed.


7 Q. To repeat my question, sir, did you listen to

8 the tape, all of it?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Including the portion between "Daki" -- and

11 just so we're clear, that's Mr. Agnes; correct -- and

12 "Igor"?

13 A. Yes. But may I just make a brief comment? I

14 heard the tape at Mr. Morrison's, who was my Defence

15 counsel at the time, who took that document on a tape

16 recorder he had in his apartment, and the truth of the

17 matter is that I focused on the part of the

18 conversation between me and Mr. Daki or, rather,

19 Agnes. So I did hear it but I didn't really pay full

20 attention to every detail of that conversation.

21 Q. No problem, sir. I think it's only about

22 30 seconds long.

23 MR. RYNEVELD: With the Court's permission, I

24 propose to have the first minute or so of the tape

25 played for the portion. I have copies of the

Page 764

1 transcript for the assistance of the Chamber, and I

2 believe my friend has copies.

3 MR. HAYNES: I think we all have copies

4 because notwithstanding the ruling that was made

5 earlier on, the transcript of both of these telephone

6 conversations went into the evidence anyway.

7 MR. RYNEVELD: For ease of location --

8 JUDGE ROBINSON: Would you have those

9 transcripts passed up?

10 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you.

11 [Audio tape played]

12 THE INTERPRETER: [Voice-over]

13 "Daki: Hello. Daki speaking. Hello. Hey,

14 who's is on the phone?

15 "Igor: It's Igor. Hello. Yes, yes.

16 "Daki: Hey, where's Bani?

17 "Igor: Hello.

18 "Daki: Bani. Bani, where is Bani?

19 "Igor: Call him on his mobile: 207.

20 "Daki: 207 203.

21 "Igor: That's right, call him.

22 "Daki: And where is he?

23 "Igor: He's in Belgrade.

24 "Daki: Can I get him there? I've been

25 calling him for an hour at that number, 207 203. Do

Page 765

1 you understand me?

2 "Igor: What did you say?

3 "Daki: I have been calling him at 207 203

4 for about an hour. I can't get through. Well, I can't

5 get him. What?

6 "Igor: Yes, yes. Well, call him later in

7 the afternoon, or he will be in Samac on Tuesday.

8 "Daki: In Samac on Tuesday? Hey, Igor,

9 listen. When does that programme with Bani start?

10 "Igor: That will be towards the end of the

11 year.

12 "Daki: Okay. I was in contact with him and

13 he mentioned May, mid-May.

14 "Igor: That doesn't matter. It's not urgent

15 yet.

16 "Daki: All right. I'll call Bani and

17 arrange it with him.

18 "Igor: Try to get hold of him in the

19 afternoon. Okay.

20 "Daki: Goodbye."

21 MR. RYNEVELD: That's sufficient.

22 Q. Do you recall hearing that conversation,

23 sir? Were you able to hear it -- no, Daki, quite

24 clearly? That's Mr. Agnes; correct?

25 A. Yes.

Page 766

1 Q. "Igor," that's your colleague Mr. Pantelic?

2 A. Yes. Yes.

3 Q. The phone number referred to, that's your

4 phone number, 207-203?

5 A. Correct.

6 Q. And you see that Mr. Agnes asks Mr. Pantelic,

7 "When is that programme with Bani start?" And the

8 answer was, "Towards the end of the year," or words to

9 that effect, I'm paraphrasing. "Daki, I was at your

10 place with him and now he's something about

11 May, mid-May."

12 What programme does that refer to, sir, if it

13 isn't the rehearsal programme that Mr. Agnes talked

14 about?

15 A. It is very difficult to answer that question

16 with complete certainty on the basis of what I have

17 just heard, and it is a good thing that you have

18 reminded me of this because I said a moment ago that

19 the last time I listened to this, I didn't pay any

20 attention to this part.

21 Mr. Agnes, it seems to me, uses the word

22 "programme", and he says "in May." Mr. Pantelic, as

23 far as I was able to understand, says it's not May but

24 some other date. That is what I heard.

25 What was implied, what is he asking him about

Page 767

1 which programme and what Mr. Pantelic understood him to

2 mean, it is very difficult for me to give you a very

3 unequivocal answer. From what I have heard, I am not

4 convinced that this has anything to do with a programme

5 of rehearsal. Even now that I've heard it -- maybe I

6 should hear it once again to see whether any mention of

7 a rehearsal is made -- only the word "programme" is

8 used. And what Mr. Agnes means under that word

9 addressing Mr. Pantelic, and what Mr. Pantelic meant

10 when he gave him his answer, it is really difficult for

11 me to give you a clearcut answer, under oath, to that

12 question.

13 Q. I'm not asking you what Mr. Pantelic had in

14 mind. I'm asking you, sir, what do you think that

15 Daki, Mr. Agnes, was referring to when he said, "That

16 programme with Bani that was first discovered about

17 May, mid-May"? Do you know of any programme with Bani,

18 you, with Daki in mid-May?

19 A. There was no programme agreed between him and

20 me linked to any kind of trial or any methodology of

21 work, if that is what you are asking me. That is

22 something I never discussed with him, never.

23 Q. All right.

24 A. I can give you a complete answer to that.

25 Q. So you deny that there was a programme,

Page 768

1 despite what Mr. Agnes said on the phone to your

2 partner, Mr. Pantelic?

3 A. No. Between me and Agnes, there was no

4 programme planned in the sense that you are implying.

5 Perhaps he is trying to provoke Mr. Pantelic. I really

6 don't know. He uses slang a lot anyway, so I don't

7 know. I simply don't know.

8 Q. Well, sir, let's move on to something that

9 you should know something about. That's the

10 conversation that you had with Daki later on in the

11 phone call. When he said, near the end of the phone

12 call, and I'm sure you'll refresh your memory -- page 3

13 near the bottom, My Lords -- "All right, then. So

14 there's no --" I'm sorry, back up a little bit.

15 Daki: Hey, listen. I definitely need the

16 money. Did you hear me?

17 Bani: What?

18 Daki: Do you understand me? You know the

19 situation is I have nowhere to go, apartment,

20 this or that.

21 Bani: I shall send you --

22 And then there is an unintelligible portion.

23 Daki: We'll sort it out.

24 Bani: Unintelligible.

25 Daki: Tomorrow afternoon?

Page 769

1 Bani: Unintelligible.

2 Daki: Ah-hah.

3 Bani: Unintelligible.

4 Daki: All right. If it should be or you

5 call you, that is, I shall call you, you know

6 when to come. All right, get in touch with

7 her. Our --

8 And then there is nothing further. Then the answer:

9 Daki: All right. So there is no problem

10 about the money?

11 Bani: We'll be in touch through her.

12 A couple of questions arising out of that.

13 Who is "her"?

14 A. Jasna Marosevic.

15 Q. What was the money?

16 A. I hear for the first time in my life in that

17 conversation.

18 Q. You had never heard the reference to money in

19 the conversation when you heard the tape played last

20 time?

21 A. No, I told you that this was the first time

22 in my life and in contact with him that I heard him

23 mention money. No, I didn't say I hadn't heard it. Of

24 course, I heard it and I read it, although there are

25 certain corrections to be made in the transcript that

Page 770

1 I've drawn Mr. Haynes' attention to, and he tried to

2 intervene and to correct the transcript, because that

3 transcript has not been correctly translated. That is

4 the problem. And this is a highly-relevant fact, and

5 that relevant fact is linked to my answer to the

6 question. What? Because it is the first time I hear

7 him mention such a thing on the phone, and, anyway, I

8 never heard it, and my answer is, "I'll call you,"

9 without wishing to chase him away and to hang up. In

10 translation of that transcript, it says, "I'll send

11 it," which is not what I said. "I'll call you."

12 The meaning of the whole conversation is

13 we'll see each other in Bosanski Samac, through her, so

14 as to talk about what I assumed he wanted to discuss,

15 and that is his existential problem, because that is

16 what he had told me at the meeting in April.

17 Therefore, neither did I promise him

18 anything, nor did I in any way intimate a positive

19 solution to his requests. That is the only fact that I

20 can quite definitely state my opinion about.

21 His comments are leading. That is, he is

22 saying something that I have not said in my answers.

23 What I keep saying is, "I'll call you when I get to

24 Bosanski Samac."

25 Furthermore, that transcript doesn't contain

Page 771

1 some other parts which I have managed, in cooperation

2 with my Defence team, to reconstruct, and that is why

3 Mr. Haynes has suggested that those texts be amended to

4 be a correct translation of the conversation. That is

5 the conversation.

6 Q. I have a copy of the translation that your

7 counsel has provided me, and I can assure you I have no

8 difficulty with that going to the Court. But in the

9 translation that you have provided or in the

10 translation that the Court now has, do you see anything

11 in the conversation with Mr. Agnes and you whereby you

12 say, "What the heck are you talking about, money?" Did

13 you say anything like that to him? Did you ever say,

14 "What do you mean, money?" Did you say that to him?

15 Sorry, sir. "Yes" or "No" would really

16 help. Did you say it?

17 A. I know you would like me to give you such an

18 answer, but I would need to have a complete transcript,

19 a translation of everything that the two of us said.

20 And as important parts of sentences are missing in this

21 translation, you're asking me to say "Yes" or "No", and

22 I'm telling you that from our conversation, one could

23 adduce that regarding the question he's asking me, my

24 answer is, "We can talk about it when we see each

25 other, because I don't know what you're talking about."

Page 772

1 He may have had a contact. Maybe he needs

2 reimbursement of expenses he has had. Maybe he needs

3 some other service from me that he would convey to me

4 in person but not by telephone, and that is why I

5 refused to discuss that subject.

6 He is making leading questions. What the

7 agreement was is for us to see each other in Bosanski

8 Samac and to discuss the matter, because these are

9 things I never discuss by telephone. That is the

10 point, and that is why I am saying, once again, one has

11 to bear in mind two things; the contents and the

12 circumstances of the conversation.

13 I tried to explain yesterday the

14 circumstances, and today I am giving you the answers

15 regarding the contents of the conversation.

16 Q. So your response to the reference to money

17 and an apartment is, "We will talk about it and we'll

18 get in touch with Jasna, through Jasna"; is that it?

19 A. I did say that we will discuss at Jasna's

20 what he mentions at the beginning without being

21 specific. I cannot give him an answer to that question

22 when I don't see any explanations. That may be a

23 question of expenses. It may be a quite insignificant

24 matter that we need to discuss. But as the transcript

25 is obviously devoid of significant parts, I cannot give

Page 773

1 you an authoritative answer.

2 JUDGE ROBINSON: I think we should move on

3 now, Mr. Ryneveld.

4 MR. RYNEVELD: Yes. I'm going to move on to

5 sitting down. Those are my questions. Thank you.

6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Those are your questions.

7 Any re-examination?

8 MR. HAYNES: Well, since Mr. Ryneveld says he

9 has no difficulty with the amended transcript that

10 we've provided --

11 MR. RYNEVELD: Not at all.

12 MR. HAYNES: -- I've only got two copies at

13 the moment. I wonder if I could lead --

14 MR. RYNEVELD: I have one here.

15 MR. HAYNES: Good.

16 MR. RYNEVELD: That's a clean copy that you

17 provided me, Mr. Haynes.

18 MR. HAYNES: Thank you. I think logically

19 they should be Exhibit 1B, the Prosecution translation

20 having been Exhibit 1A.

21 [Trial Chamber confers]

22 MR. RYNEVELD: Perhaps my friend could

23 clarify, but I believe just the changes are in bold

24 print, as I understand it. Is that correct?

25 MR. HAYNES: That's correct, yes.

Page 774

1 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Haynes, don't start --

2 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, Your Honour,

3 please.

4 JUDGE ROBINSON: Don't commence yet.

5 [Trial Chamber confers]

6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Haynes, we have seen the

7 document that you have presented representing the

8 translation of the conversation. What the Chamber will

9 do is bring it to the attention of the official

10 translators of the Tribunal and ask them to comment in

11 particular on certain portions.

12 MR. HAYNES: Well, I'm a little confused as

13 to how I should proceed now, then. Would you prefer

14 that the re-examination of Mr. Avramovic be deferred

15 until tomorrow afternoon?

16 JUDGE ROBINSON: No. I think you should

17 proceed, I think you should proceed.

18 JUDGE HUNT: Are we going to be told how this

19 particular translation was brought into being? I know

20 that Mr. Avramovic has said that he made certain

21 suggestions to you, but did you have somebody

22 independent translate it?

23 MR. HAYNES: The history of the document is

24 that the Prosecution translation was handed to us the

25 morning, I think, that it was played.

Page 775

1 JUDGE HUNT: When you say "the Prosecution

2 translation", it was, in fact, done by the official

3 translators.

4 MR. HAYNES: Well, that's as it may be, but

5 it was the first sight we had had of the translation,

6 and it was just before the morning it was played. We

7 had the tape listened to, and we made suggested

8 amendments. I don't proffer any criticism, but, in

9 fact, that document has been in the possession of the

10 Prosecution for in excess of a month now, and we

11 invited them to agree that there were supplements to

12 the translation and corrections. Until now, we had

13 received no answer. The answer, it appears, is they

14 have no difficulty with that. I assume they --

15 JUDGE HUNT: No difficulty with us saying it

16 was the words. I don't know what that quite means, but

17 it wasn't an acceptance of its accuracy.

18 MR. HAYNES: Well, that was why it was

19 submitted to them several weeks ago, so that they might

20 consider its accuracy. I'm afraid I took that as a

21 concession that it was accurate.

22 JUDGE HUNT: Well, what was it intended to

23 be, Mr. Ryneveld?

24 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you. My friend gave it

25 to me at the close of one of the days. I must take

Page 776

1 full responsibility. It was given to me. It was

2 shuffled into my briefcase, along with a number of

3 other papers, and frankly I did not have it

4 translated.

5 It was brought to our attention again, I

6 believe, today, and I indicated that I had not had an

7 opportunity to have it checked out. But we did look at

8 the documents and thought that the changes did not --

9 were not of great significance to my

10 cross-examination. So I had no objection to the Court

11 seeing it or even considering it.

12 But I cannot vouch for its accuracy, because

13 apart from receiving it, yes, I admit well in advance I

14 did not have it sent to the official translators for

15 verification. But I didn't want to take paltry

16 advantage of the fact that I hadn't had it checked to

17 prevent my friend from at least introducing it.

18 So in that respect, I take full

19 responsibility that I am unable to do anything more

20 than say to you I have no objection to it going in. I

21 cannot, of course, vouch for its veracity or

22 correctness.

23 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you.

24 Well, Mr. Haynes, you haven't really revealed

25 the source of your translation. Was it an independent

Page 777

1 translation?

2 MR. HAYNES: It was in house, in effect.

3 JUDGE HUNT: That's hardly independent. The

4 answer to it is it was not independent.

5 MR. HAYNES: No. I mean the difficulty is,

6 with this particular piece of evidence, that there are

7 actually three sources to it. Mr. Agnes has given

8 evidence about what he says --

9 JUDGE HUNT: We're worried about the accuracy

10 of this transcript.

11 MR. HAYNES: Yes.

12 JUDGE HUNT: You haven't had it done

13 independently, so that all we need to do, then, is to

14 have it checked, for our translators to say, "Well, it

15 could be that," or, "It is not that."

16 MR. HAYNES: I'm happy that that is done. I

17 don't know in what time scale that can be achieved.

18 JUDGE ROBINSON: I believe that can be done

19 very expeditiously.

20 Proceed with your re-examination.

21 MR. HAYNES: Just a few questions, Mr.

22 Avramovic.

23 Re-examined by Mr. Haynes:

24 Q. Dealing with the question of the blue bag

25 briefly, when the blue bag was handed to you, that was,

Page 778

1 you say, in September?

2 A. Yes, the 17th of September.

3 Q. In vague terms, did you have any idea where

4 Mr. Agnes was at that time?

5 A. On the 17th of September, I assumed that he

6 was probably in the Netherlands. I wasn't sure of

7 that. I don't know.

8 Q. Did it appear to you at that stage he was

9 likely to want to come back and reclaim his belongings

10 that were in that bag?

11 A. The proceedings were ongoing, so I really

12 couldn't assess what would happen. But I must believe

13 that I didn't believe that he would come to pick up his

14 things, as the proceedings were under way and I knew he

15 was here, so I didn't expect him to come back.

16 Q. Did you actually take anything out of the bag

17 on the day that it was handed to you?

18 A. No, I didn't take anything. I put it away in

19 the way I have told you.

20 Q. Thank you. Now, one other thing.

21 Going back a year to September of 1998, if we

22 may, there was a hearing in the trial on indictment

23 between September the 2nd and September the 4th, I

24 think, of 1998; is that correct?

25 A. Yes.

Page 779

1 Q. Prior to that date, what charge had Milan

2 Simic faced?

3 A. Milan Simic was charged for events in the

4 elementary school or, rather, for an event in which

5 Milan Simic allegedly participated in beating up

6 certain people. That would be the charge in brief, in

7 summary.

8 Q. After the hearing in early September 1998,

9 what charge did he then face?

10 A. After the Status Conference or the hearing

11 that was held at the beginning of September, the

12 accused pleaded on the amended indictment in which the

13 charges were expanded with respect to Milan Simic to

14 include the charge of persecution.

15 Q. How did that change in the charge that he

16 faced, from an isolated incident to one of persecution,

17 affect your decision to meet Mr. Agnes in late

18 September of 1998?

19 MR. RYNEVELD: I must rise. Didn't we cover

20 this before in chief, and how does it arise out of

21 cross-examination?

22 JUDGE HUNT: Was there any cross-examination

23 upon this, Mr. Haynes?

24 MR. HAYNES: I believe there was.

25 JUDGE HUNT: You believe. I don't. At least

Page 780

1 I don't remember it. But I'm happy to accept your

2 assurance if you're right, but I certainly don't

3 remember it. What was the nature of the

4 cross-examination?

5 MR. HAYNES: The nature of the

6 cross-examination was that Drago Vukovic, having formed

7 certain impressions of the witness that were

8 unfavourable, there would thus be no point in

9 Mr. Avramovic going to see him and see what he had to

10 say. The point is that there had been a material

11 change in the case between the time that Drago Vukovic

12 had seen him and when Mr. Avramovic first saw him.

13 MR. RYNEVELD: We heard that in chief.

14 JUDGE HUNT: That's right.

15 MR. HAYNES: Fine.

16 Q. Nextly, Mr. Avramovic, dealing with the

17 question that was put to you earlier on, you understand

18 the meaning of the word "lure"?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Was it your understanding that Mr. Agnes was

21 to lure Mirsad Sahanic to come to Bosnia?

22 A. No.

23 Q. Thank you. Now, between May -- between

24 September of 1998 and May of 1999, did you have a lot

25 of work to do in relation to the preparation of the

Page 781

1 trial and indictment?

2 MR. RYNEVELD: I think we heard that

3 ad nauseam.

4 MR. HAYNES: I don't think we did.

5 JUDGE ROBINSON: Go ahead, Mr. Haynes. We

6 must try to conclude.

7 MR. HAYNES: Yes, of course.

8 Q. Did you do a lot of work in relation to the

9 trial and the indictment between September of 1998 and

10 May of 1999?

11 A. Let me answer your question very briefly. In

12 professional terms, that period in my life was, in the

13 first place for my family, a very difficult one,

14 because I had entirely forgotten my family and

15 dedicated my entire time to the case. Because of the

16 facts I had to prepare and to produce for this Trial

17 Chamber, I worked literally daily from 7.00 until

18 10.00, 11.00 at night. I worked virtually all

19 Saturdays and very many Sundays. I worked non-stop on

20 travel and in the office. I spent on the case and the

21 indictment at least 10 to 15 hours a day, and I devoted

22 everything to that case. In fact, I lost my clients.

23 I lost everything that I had been building up in my

24 career because I wished to give my all to this case.

25 And I sacrificed even my family. And now I understand

Page 782

1 Mr. Vukovic, when he realised at the beginning of

2 September where further involvement in this case would

3 take him.

4 We in the Defence, Mr. Haynes, have very

5 modest possibilities compared to the Prosecution. We

6 have very limited staff to deal with such a complex

7 charge as persecution. If the indictment had remained

8 unchanged when the proceedings had started, it would

9 have been an easier undertaking. But to delve into the

10 issue of persecution, such a very broad charge is a

11 very difficult one, so that my life was exclusively

12 devoted to that task. That is, frankly, what I did.

13 Q. Now, again, just briefly if you can, how

14 difficult is it to find people to tell you what

15 happened in Bosanski Samac in 1992?

16 A. Extremely difficult.

17 Q. You spoke to Mr. Agnes on the 28th of

18 September, and you formed the view that he might be

19 useful for information. What was the basis of that

20 view that you took?

21 A. The basis for my view was the wish, through

22 him, to reach potential new witnesses for certain

23 events. And when I said a moment ago that it is

24 difficult to find witnesses, what I meant was something

25 that I need to explain.

Page 783

1 The environment in which the events allegedly

2 occurred, according to the indictment, is a very small

3 community. It is a community in which it is very

4 difficult to do anything without these things being

5 revealed, so that it is very difficult to work in such

6 an environment. The charge is broad. There are many

7 witnesses. The Defence had contact with many. The

8 Defence can prepare in a qualitative manner for the

9 case, but I'm saying that it is very hard to work

10 because of the scope of the charges in the indictment.

11 And also this is not in my own town, so that I have to

12 travel.

13 Q. When you were -- spoke to Mr. Agnes on the

14 28th of the September and he looked at lists and

15 indicated that he knew some people, what expectation

16 did you have that he would be able to get in touch with

17 people?

18 A. Well, at that time I didn't have any special

19 expectations, because he himself showed reservations as

20 to the success with these contacts. But, of course, I

21 did hope that if he succeeded in doing so, it would be

22 a good thing. It would be a good thing if we were able

23 to reach more credible or completely credible

24 witnesses.

25 Q. In the scheme of things, after the 28th of

Page 784

1 September, how important was he to you in the conduct

2 of this case?

3 A. Well, I can tell you, quite frankly, that I

4 have a lot of people like him on hold, so to speak, so

5 that he is not a key source of information, so I didn't

6 devote any particular attention to him. That is being

7 very frank.

8 Q. And just lastly, because of something that

9 appeared in the transcript earlier on, after you spoke

10 to Jasna Marosevic, I think you said in about October

11 of 1998, was there any possibility that he would be

12 called as a witness in the defence of Milan Simic?

13 A. No. That was my stand as Defence counsel for

14 Milan Simic.

15 MR. HAYNES: Thank you.

16 Questioned by the Court:

17 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Avramovic, the Chamber

18 has a question for you. It relates to the report done

19 by the senior legal officer of the billing records

20 which were submitted to the Registry. A copy of the

21 senior legal officer's report was submitted to you and

22 to Mr. Haynes. I'm going to pass a copy to you and ask

23 you to identify from the pseudonyms which one relates

24 to Mr. Agnes. Pages 3, 4, and 5 contain the

25 pseudonyms?

Page 785

1 A. Your Honour, I have looked through this

2 document, and the pseudonyms are on the last page; that

3 is to say, page 5. They are the dates the 22nd of

4 September and the 28th of September. Those are the

5 pseudonyms.

6 JUDGE ROBINSON: That relate to Mr. Agnes?

7 A. Yes. Yes, of course, because there are no

8 other witnesses.

9 JUDGE ROBINSON: Witness --

10 A. Yes. There is no other witness from

11 Mitrovica, so then that is sure.

12 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you very much.

13 Before we adjourn, I think we have to make an

14 assessment. Mr. Haynes, how long will your witness

15 be?

16 MR. HAYNES: Well, I see no reason to

17 dissemble. My last witness is Mr. Simic. He will be

18 short in chief, but I would have thought it unrealistic

19 to suppose that in total he'll be much less than an

20 hour, I suppose.

21 The spectre has been raised today of a

22 further witness being called, and thereafter some

23 documents need to be introduced into evidence before I

24 close my case.

25 JUDGE HUNT: The further witness is to deal

Page 786

1 with the transcript of the telephone conversation.

2 MR. HAYNES: Yes.

3 JUDGE HUNT: That would not be long, would

4 it?


6 JUDGE ROBINSON: And how long would your

7 address be, your submission?

8 MR. HAYNES: I wouldn't have thought they

9 would be much less than an hour.

10 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Ryneveld, how long do

11 you think your cross-examination will be, and what is

12 the estimate of your time for your address?

13 MR. RYNEVELD: Since I have asked

14 Ms. Paterson to deliver the closing address, I've just

15 asked her, and she tells me less than an hour. I think

16 we can assume up to an hour and that's safe.

17 JUDGE ROBINSON: So realistically, we should

18 try to find some time beyond tomorrow afternoon's

19 session, although we should try as hard as we can to

20 see how far we can go.

21 MR. HAYNES: Well, I suppose the other

22 possibility that's certainly been raised with me by the

23 senior legal officer is that if we do need to look for

24 another date, perhaps a substantial amount of closing

25 statement could be put into written form.

Page 787

1 Again, I want to be completely up front. The

2 submissions I make are going to be substantially

3 evidentiary in their nature, but also they're going to

4 touch upon the scope of Rule 77 itself, and I wonder

5 whether that might be helpful.

6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. Well, we'll take the

7 adjournment now, and tomorrow we'll make the

8 assessment. In the meantime, the Chamber will make an

9 effort to see whether there is any possibility for any

10 session to be held on Friday.

11 MR. HAYNES: Can I make a request that is

12 utterly selfish and it really dictates whether I'm

13 going to be burning the midnight oil tonight, and that

14 is: Does the Chamber envisage hearing closing oral

15 arguments tomorrow or not?

16 JUDGE ROBINSON: We would like to take it as

17 far as possible, certainly. We would like to have this

18 case concluded.

19 MR. HAYNES: Oh, I understand that, and so

20 would I.

21 JUDGE ROBINSON: And concluded this week, so

22 that we would be making efforts to try to see whether

23 it's possible to fit something in on Friday. It will

24 be very difficult, but we'll try. But in the meantime,

25 we have to try to finish tomorrow.

Page 788

1 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Mr. Haynes,

2 if I understood well, you have another witness who will

3 not take very long for you. You said -- how much will

4 your witness take, the examination-in-chief of

5 Mr. Simic?

6 MR. HAYNES: A very short period of time.

7 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] And the

8 cross-examination?

9 MR. RYNEVELD: I'm sure that's going to

10 depend on what he has to say, but I would imagine up to

11 half an hour.

12 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Then

13 perhaps we could try and finish tomorrow afternoon.

14 I'm speaking in my own name, but I think we should make

15 an effort to finish tomorrow.

16 JUDGE ROBINSON: Judge Bennouna has spoken

17 for the Chamber. We'll make every effort to conclude

18 tomorrow afternoon.

19 So we adjourn until 2.30 tomorrow.

20 Mr. Avramovic, you are reminded that in the

21 adjournment, you are not to discuss your evidence with

22 anybody.

23 JUDGE HUNT: He's finished.

24 JUDGE ROBINSON: I'm sorry. You are

25 released.

Page 789

1 THE WITNESS: Thank you very much.

2 [The witness withdrew]

3 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned

4 at 5.45 p.m., to be reconvened on

5 Thursday, the 2nd day of December, 1999

6 at 2.30 p.m.