Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 3975

1 Wednesday, 1 May 2002

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 9.32 a.m.

5 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Ryneveld.

6 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you, Your Honour. At the outset, before we

7 call our first proposed witness for the day, we, on the 29th of April,

8 provided a letter for distribution to all parties, indicating the next 28

9 witnesses that we proposed to call. I might say that the first two, Mr.

10 Isufi and Mr. Kabashi, are 92 bis witness proposals for whom we already

11 have permission by the Trial Chamber to call as 92 bis.

12 There then follow a number of witnesses, numbers 3 through 18 on

13 our list, but for two of them which will not require that ruling now, that

14 we have not yet received ruling to proceed, and I anticipate at the rate

15 at which we hope to go, we will actually get to some of those witnesses

16 who are here today and ready to start testifying. And just alerting the

17 Court that we're going to require a ruling before we can actually call

18 those witnesses.

19 Also, over the weekend, a review reveals that number 3 on our

20 list, Shaqiri, there appears to be a problem in that the witness gave two

21 statements, only one of which has been bis'ed. So until that matter is

22 resolved, we'll go -- we'll skip number 3 so that we can resolve that

23 technical issue and go number 1, 2, 4, 5. So first will be Isufi, then

24 Mr. Kabashi, then we'll skip Shaqiri, and in the event the Court permits

25 92 bis for Haradinaj and Gerxhaliu, that should probably do for today. I

Page 3976

1 just thought I'd give you that indication that we've got some rulings to

2 obtain before we can proceed, after the first two witnesses.

3 With that preliminary matter, I would propose to call Perparim

4 Isufi as our first witness.

5 [The witness entered court]

6 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Let the witness take the declaration.


8 [Witness answered through interpreter]

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

10 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

11 JUDGE MAY: Thank you. If you'd like to take a seat.

12 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you, Your Honour.

13 Examined by Mr. Ryneveld:

14 Q. Now, Mr. Isufi, I understand, sir, that you are 22 years old and

15 you are at this moment unmarried. Is that correct?

16 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone on, please. We can't hear anything.

17 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

18 [Trial Chamber confers]

19 JUDGE MAY: Apparently it will take a few minutes to sort out the

20 problem. We shall wait.

21 Mr. Ryneveld, I don't think there's anything we can usefully do.

22 MR. RYNEVELD: No. The only thing I might indicate --

23 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, Mr. Ryneveld, please.

24 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you. The only thing I might suggest is if

25 the Court wants to find the location of the next village on the map while

Page 3977

1 we're waiting. Anything to save a few minutes.

2 Exhibit 83, page 6, on the right-hand column, you'll see number

3 14, and about an inch to the left of that number 14, you'll see an orange

4 sort of marking with Mazgit, and that, I understand, will be the community

5 that this witness will be talking about. Other than that, I think I

6 should wait until we have the go-ahead to proceed.

7 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Ryneveld.

8 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you, Your Honour.

9 Q. Witness, can -- oh, you'll have to put the headphones on. Can you

10 hear me, Witness?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. All right. Mr. Isufi, do I understand correctly that you are a

13 22-year-old, unmarried Muslim of ethnic -- Albanian ethnicity, living in

14 Kosovo?

15 A. Yes, that's correct.

16 Q. And did you live in the village of Mazgit, in the municipality of

17 Obilic, in March of 1999?

18 A. Yes, I did.

19 Q. And what was your occupation at the time? What did you do?

20 A. At that time, I didn't work.

21 Q. Did you go to school?

22 A. Yes, I used to go to school.

23 Q. Now, did you give a statement to officials from the ICTY on the

24 10th of May, 1999?

25 A. Yes, I did.

Page 3978

1 Q. And subsequently, did someone read -- or give you a copy in

2 Albanian of that statement on the 2nd of February, 2002?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Did you have an opportunity to read over that statement and agree

5 that that was -- that the contents of that statement were true and

6 accurate to the best of your belief?

7 A. Yes, that's correct.

8 Q. And at that time, you swore a solemn declaration before a

9 presiding officer of this Court, indicating that it was true to the best

10 of your knowledge and belief; is that correct?

11 A. Yes.

12 MR. RYNEVELD: Might that statement now be tendered as an exhibit

13 in these proceedings, Your Honours.

14 JUDGE MAY: Yes. We'll have an exhibit number.

15 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be Exhibit 117.

16 JUDGE KWON: Excuse me?

17 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit 117, Your Honour.

18 JUDGE KWON: Can I see the registry?

19 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

20 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you. If it please the Court, I propose to

21 read a very brief summary of what is contained in the statement.

22 Your Honours, according to the statement, on the morning of the

23 27th of March, 1999, the witness and his family were forced to flee their

24 home, and half of the women and children fled the village and went to

25 Pristina, due to the mobilisation of the Serb forces around this village.

Page 3979

1 That afternoon, the Serbs started to shell the village of Mazgit. The

2 remaining villagers fled to the village of Bariljevo. The witness spent

3 the night in Bariljevo before returning to his village.

4 At noon the following day, the witness could hear automatic

5 gunfire and shells falling, and he therefore fled and headed for Pristina,

6 with the remaining women and children. En route to Pristina, a vehicle

7 containing three men dressed in blue camouflage police uniforms pulled up.

8 They appeared to be heavily armed with automatic weapons, and they opened

9 fire on the group, killing four of the women. The balance of the group

10 ran the rest of the way to Pristina. In his statement, this witness

11 describes the incidents en route in some detail.

12 The witness describes in his statement that a few days later, he

13 heard from a passerby that the police were forcibly expelling people and

14 that a number of Albanian people were being killed. The witness and his

15 family left and were then directed by police to walk around the city with

16 many others. The column, which, in his estimate, by that time numbered in

17 the thousands, were eventually directed by police to the Dragodan train

18 station in Pristina, where they were ordered to get on an overcrowded

19 train. They had no idea where they were going and were not allowed to get

20 off the train. The witness saw many Serb police and army. He noted that

21 the Serbs set fire to two houses on each side of the train.

22 He then describes more about what happened and indicates that they

23 arrived near the border early the next morning, when the people on the

24 train were told to disembark and walk up the tracks to the Macedonian

25 border.

Page 3980

1 That is a very brief summary of the witness's statement, but Your

2 Honours have the full statement tendered as Exhibit 117. Thank you.

3 JUDGE MAY: Thank you.

4 Mr. Milosevic.

5 Cross-examined by Mr. Milosevic:

6 Q. [Interpretation] Why did they, as you say - the Serbs - start

7 shelling your village on the 27th of March?

8 JUDGE MAY: It's not for the witness to say; it's for those who

9 were doing the shelling.

10 Did you see any reason for shelling of your village that day?

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes; only because we were Albanians.

12 That's the only reason.

13 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

14 Q. And what time did this happen?

15 A. It was about 3.00 in the afternoon.

16 Q. And how many inhabitants, on that occasion in your village, were

17 killed?

18 A. You think on the 27th of March, when the shelling started?

19 Q. Yes. Yes.

20 A. No one was killed that day.

21 Q. Well, a moment ago you said that they shelled the village to kill

22 the Albanians, but nobody was killed.

23 A. They shelled the village, but one hour before they did that, the

24 children and the men left, and only young men and a few young -- a few

25 men, adults, remained in the village. And we too left to Bariljeve after

Page 3981

1 the shelling started, and that day, I repeat, no one was hurt or killed.

2 Q. So you claim that the soldiers shelled an empty village in which

3 there were just a few people and that they did not know that the village

4 was empty, in fact; is that it?

5 A. I don't know if they knew that the village was empty, but they

6 started shelling at around 3.00, as I said.

7 Q. And why did the police in February of that same year, close to

8 your village, as you say, at 800 metres, set up a checkpoint? Do you know

9 anything about that? Do you know the reasons for that?

10 A. No, I don't know the reason for that.

11 Q. And did, as you say, the Serbs, up until 1999, or rather, those

12 developments which you're describing now, maltreat anybody from your

13 village, or kill anybody?

14 A. No. Until that time, no.

15 Q. Why, then, do you say in your statement that your relatives and

16 you were afraid that the Serbs would first abuse you and then kill you?

17 A. I said because we were afraid, since we saw that the situation was

18 deteriorating with every passing day, and we saw checkpoints set up in

19 close vicinity to the village.

20 Q. And did you see any members of the KLA in the vicinity of the

21 village?

22 A. No, I didn't see. There wasn't any, in fact.

23 Q. And when did you see the KLA for the first time?

24 A. It was very late that I saw them. In fact, I saw them only on

25 television.

Page 3982

1 Q. And where did you see them first off television, live?

2 A. In March 1999.

3 Q. And where did you see them on that occasion?

4 A. In Llap area.

5 Q. And when was that? I mean, you said it was March, but when in

6 March?

7 A. I don't remember the exact date.

8 Q. Roughly, in relation to what you were saying about the 27th of

9 March. So you saw them before the 27th of March. How many days before?

10 A. About ten days before that.

11 Q. So ten days before -- you saw members of the KLA ten days before

12 the village was shelled; is that right?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. How many of them were there?

15 A. There were only two.

16 Q. And what kind of weapons were they carrying?

17 A. I don't know. I never looked at them properly.

18 Q. Were they far away from you?

19 A. I saw -- I told you that I saw them only on television.

20 Q. I'm talking about the two you say you saw some ten days before the

21 village was shelled.

22 A. Yes. That was how it was, ten days before that.

23 Q. Well, that's why I'm asking you. How far away were they from you

24 when you weren't able to see what weapons they had?

25 A. I saw them only on television, I said. I didn't see them armed.

Page 3983

1 JUDGE MAY: You said that you saw two in the Lap area.

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

3 JUDGE MAY: The question that you were asked is: When did you

4 first see any KLA off television, live? And you said: In March 1999.

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. That was on television. I

6 never saw them with my own eyes.

7 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

8 Q. All right. This is quite clear. Let's go on.

9 When did you hear of the KLA? When did you first learn about the

10 KLA?

11 A. It was rather late when I first heard of them.

12 Q. What does that mean, "late"? When? Approximately when?

13 A. At that time, March.

14 Q. Was that over television too?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Very well. Now, you say in your statement as soon as you saw the

17 Serb policemen, you started getting ready to flee from the village. Is

18 that correct?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. But before that, you said that the policemen had a checkpoint for

21 quite a long time in your neighbourhood. Is that correct?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. If you were afraid of the police, why didn't you run away when you

24 saw that they had a checkpoint there?

25 A. Because we just didn't think that they would go on to commit these

Page 3984

1 crimes.

2 Q. When you ran away from the village, nothing had happened yet. How

3 did you know, then, that somebody would commit some crimes, as you had put

4 it?

5 A. We knew because we just knew that, from day to day, they started

6 to kill the population.

7 Q. I am asking you: How come you knew? And your answer is: We knew

8 because we knew. Can you tell me: How did you know, when nothing had

9 happened?

10 JUDGE MAY: Well, I think he's given the best answer he can. And

11 we know that the shelling did in fact start. So it's not really going to

12 take us much further to argue about why they left.

13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May, what you said just now, "We

14 know that the shelling did in fact start," that is very questionable. We

15 can only say that the witness has been asserting that the shelling had

16 started, but we do not know that it started.

17 JUDGE MAY: Yes. That's his evidence, that the shelling started.

18 You asked him: Why did you leave? And his answer was they knew trouble

19 was coming. And in fact, according to him, trouble came. So there's not

20 much point going on, little point going on, asking this line of

21 questioning.

22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] That's precisely why I'm putting

23 this question: How did you know that they would shell the village? They

24 were there for so long, so many days, and they didn't do any such thing.

25 Q. How did you know that they would start shelling?

Page 3985

1 JUDGE MAY: I don't think there's any further point going on with

2 this.

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We didn't know, but -- we didn't

4 know that they were going to shell until the moment when they started.

5 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

6 Q. So you did not know that. And previously you said that you had

7 known that it would happen. On that day, the 27th of March, in your

8 village, apart from the local villagers, were there any other people there

9 as well?

10 A. No. Only us local people.

11 Q. In your statement, you say that half of the women and children

12 left the village already in the early morning hours and went to Pristina.

13 Is that correct?

14 A. Yes, that's right.

15 Q. Why did they do that?

16 A. Because they were scared.

17 Q. What were they scared of?

18 A. They were scared of your forces.

19 Q. But the forces had been there for months and weeks before that.

20 JUDGE MAY: We're going round the same point. His evidence is

21 that they were scared and they had something to be scared of and that

22 shelling started. It's a waste of time to go on asking him why they were

23 scared. He's told you.

24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right.

25 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Page 3986

1 Q. Were you with them on the way to Pristina?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Is it correct that only men stayed back in the village?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. And were the men armed?

6 A. No, they were not.

7 Q. When you arrived in Bariljevo, at the village of Bariljevo, you

8 claim that you walked into an empty house. Is that right?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. What did you do there?

11 A. Nothing. We only stayed there that night. We stayed there the

12 night of 27th of March.

13 Q. When you say that you only spent the night there, was it all of

14 you who had set out, these women, that is, and you together with them, you

15 spent the night of the 27th of March there?

16 A. Yes, those women were there too.

17 Q. And this house in Bariljevo, how far away is it from your village?

18 A. I don't know exactly, but about five or six kilometres.

19 Q. Five or six kilometres? Well, you said that you had set out from

20 the village at least an hour before the alleged shelling started, that the

21 shelling started at 3.00, so you left at 2.00 at the latest. Is that

22 right?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. So as for the entire afternoon all way up to the evening, from

25 2.00 until the evening, you had passed only five kilometres?

Page 3987

1 A. Yes, that's right.

2 Q. And who made you in charge of taking the women and children to

3 Pristina?

4 JUDGE MAY: The first question is: Was he in charge?

5 Were you in charge of taking the women and children to Pristina?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I wasn't in charge.

7 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

8 Q. It was my understanding that you were. Who was in charge of doing

9 that?

10 A. There was nobody in charge. We just set out that day for

11 Prishtina.

12 Q. So you were the only man who went to Pristina together with the

13 women and children, as part of that group?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And all the rest remained in the village in order to take care of

16 the cattle?

17 A. Yes, that's right.

18 Q. So how many men stayed back in the village in order to take care

19 of the safety of the cattle?

20 A. Eight or nine of them.

21 Q. Tell me: How high was the embankment that you walked down when

22 you left the asphalt road?

23 A. You mean when we climbed up onto the embankment?

24 JUDGE MAY: So it's clear, Mr. Milosevic, we are now on the next

25 day.

Page 3988

1 Is this right, Mr. Isufi? You returned after the first shelling,

2 you returned the following day to the village?

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

4 JUDGE MAY: But then, according to your statement --

5 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for the Presiding Judge, please.

6 JUDGE MAY: According to your statement, there was then another

7 shelling of the village; is that right?

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

9 JUDGE MAY: And the statement says the men in the village had

10 decided -- "The men of the village had decided that if we were attacked

11 again, I would be responsible for getting the remaining women and children

12 to Pristina and that the men would stay within the village for as long as

13 possible to make sure the cattle were safe."

14 Is that right?

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

16 JUDGE MAY: So on that second day, you were responsible, were you,

17 for getting the women and children to Pristina?

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that's right. They left me to

19 go with them.

20 JUDGE MAY: And then the shelling started. Were you in the

21 village then, when the shelling started on this occasion?

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, not then. I wasn't.

23 JUDGE MAY: In any event, you and the women and children, a group

24 of about 20, then set off towards Pristina; is that right?

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

Page 3989

1 JUDGE MAY: We come to the time when you left the road and came

2 down the embankment that the accused is asking you about.

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

4 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Milosevic.

5 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

6 Q. So this second time when you went to Pristina was actually on the

7 next day?

8 A. Yes, it was the next day, that Sunday, 28th of March.

9 Q. The 27th, in the afternoon, you went to Pristina. That's what you

10 said. Is that right?

11 A. No. It was the 28th.

12 Q. You went to Pristina twice; the first time on the 27th, in the

13 afternoon, and the second time on the 28th. This is in accordance with

14 your statement and it's also in accordance with what you've just been

15 saying; is that right?

16 JUDGE MAY: No. That's not fair to the witness. He said on the

17 first occasion they went to Bariljevo and that's where they spent the

18 night. Then they came back to the village and the next day they set out

19 for Pristina. That's what his statement says and that was his evidence.

20 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

21 Q. But the next day, somebody made you responsible of taking care of

22 the women and children, taking them to Pristina. That's what you said

23 only a short while ago.

24 A. I wasn't ordered to do this, but I took this upon myself, and we

25 set off for Prishtina.

Page 3990

1 Q. Yes, but a short while ago you said that you were responsible for

2 taking the women and children to Pristina.

3 A. I wasn't given a duty, but I was the only person left to do this.

4 Q. Why were you the only person, when you say that there were seven

5 or eight other men there as well, as you had put it?

6 A. Well, I was the youngest.

7 Q. That means that all the others had some more important business to

8 attend to; right?

9 A. No. No, they didn't have important jobs to do. They were only

10 sitting at home and looking at the situation and seeing what was going on,

11 like on other days.

12 Q. Since you went on the first day to Pristina and you covered only

13 five kilometres, then how did you decide --

14 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Milosevic, you musn't misrepresent the evidence.

15 He didn't go to Pristina the first day.

16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, but the intention was the first

17 day to have the women and children go to Pristina; however, they didn't

18 make it all the way to Pristina. Right? So that is my question.

19 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

20 Q. How did they decide to go back rather than continue their journey

21 to Pristina?

22 A. No, we didn't decide to go back, but we went straight to

23 Prishtina.

24 Q. I don't really understand you.

25 A. We continued on the road straight to Prishtina.

Page 3991

1 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Isufi, in your statement, page -- it is page 2,

2 and third paragraph, at the end of the paragraph: "When I reached

3 Bariljevo, I stayed in an empty house. This house had already been looted

4 and the occupants were no longer there. The only members of my immediate

5 family that were in Bariljevo was my brother, Arben, and myself."

6 And you said:

7 "All the other members of my family had fled to Pristina an hour

8 or so before the shelling started."

9 Did the other members of your family go to Pristina or not?

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, they did, one hour before the

11 shelling.

12 JUDGE KWON: Were they different people from those who took care

13 of the next morning?

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm sorry, I didn't understand the

15 question.

16 JUDGE KWON: Some members of your family had fled to Pristina on

17 27th of March; is it right?

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

19 JUDGE KWON: Were they not the same people as those who took --

20 who took with you to Pristina the next day? Are they different people or

21 the same people?

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, they were not the same people.

23 They were different people.

24 JUDGE KWON: Yes. That seems to be the confusion of the accused.

25 Please go on.

Page 3992

1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, obviously there has been some

2 confusion, but I'm not the one who caused it.

3 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

4 Q. You did not return to your village from Bariljevo; you continued

5 your journey to Pristina. Is that right?

6 A. Yes, that's right, on the 28th of March. It was a Sunday.

7 Q. And who was it that returned to the village again? Was it only

8 you or was it everybody together?

9 A. I said we didn't return to the village as of Sunday.

10 Q. I don't understand. You left on the 27th of March, you spent the

11 night in Bariljevo, and then you proceeded to Pristina. On the 28th of

12 March, again you went from your village to Pristina; is that right?

13 A. Yes. We left for Prishtina from our village.

14 Q. So on the 27th and on the 28th of March, you were going to

15 Pristina from your village; is that right?

16 A. No. I didn't go to Prishtina on the 27th of March. I went to

17 Bariljeve. I went to Prishtina on the 28th of March.

18 Q. When did you return from Bariljevo? You said that you spent the

19 night in Bariljevo.

20 A. We returned on the next morning.

21 Q. Together?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. So these very same people that you went with to Bariljevo returned

24 with you to the village and then the next day, again, you and these same

25 people went to Pristina. Did I understand you correctly?

Page 3993

1 A. Yes, you did. That was how it was.

2 Q. Well, a short while ago, in response to Mr. Kwon's question, you

3 said that these were not the same people, and on the first day, it was one

4 set of people that went and, the second day, it was a different set of

5 people, and now you are claiming that it was the same people. What is

6 correct: What you said a short while ago to Mr. Kwon or what you are

7 saying to me now?

8 A. The correct answer was the one I gave to Judge Kwon. On Saturday,

9 my family and others left. But on Sunday, it was those women and men that

10 we returned from Bariljeve to the village.

11 Q. And then these same people went to Pristina again, together with

12 you?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. These same people who had left the previous day.

15 JUDGE MAY: We have taken this as far as we can. Let us move on

16 to another topic. You were talking about what happened on the journey to

17 Pristina. It may be as well if we went on from there rather than going

18 round and round on the same point.

19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, we can move on because a major

20 contradiction, discrepancy, is obvious here in these statements.

21 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

22 Q. Let's go back to this embankment that you've been describing. You

23 said that this embankment constituted a major danger.

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And why was this embankment a major danger? Could you please

Page 3994

1 explain that?

2 A. Because it was the main asphalt road, Prishtina-Mitrovica, near

3 that place.

4 Q. And you say that on that road you didn't see anybody.

5 A. No. When we went to -- on the way to Mitrovica, yes, but to

6 Prishtina, no.

7 Q. But you say that, afterwards, a car appeared.

8 A. Yes. Once we crossed the main road, asphalt road, we went to that

9 embankment, and then on the side road leaving to Obiliq, we saw that car

10 approaching.

11 Q. So the vehicle was not driving along the road that you had already

12 passed?

13 A. No, it was not.

14 Q. It was my understanding from your statement that when you were

15 watching the road, you didn't notice the vehicle, but then it got closer

16 to you at a great speed. Is that right?

17 A. Yes, that's right.

18 Q. So was the vehicle driving along the asphalt road or some other

19 road?

20 A. It was driving on the main, asphalt road.

21 Q. A little while ago you said that the vehicle was not on the

22 asphalt road, the main road, but that you saw a vehicle on a smaller

23 byroad.

24 A. Yes. From that side road, then they turned and came to the road

25 where they were leaving.

Page 3995

1 Q. But this great speed that they were moving at, this was on the

2 asphalt road. That is what your statement says.

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. And when did they cross onto the side road and return to the main

5 road? What actually happened?

6 A. They came and stopped when we crossed the asphalt road.

7 Q. And how far away from you were they?

8 A. When they came out of the car, it was night [as interpreted]. It

9 was -- we were afraid.

10 Q. How far away from you were they?

11 A. You mean when they came out of the car?

12 Q. Yes. You were fleeing, you were afraid. How far away from you

13 were they?

14 A. We were very afraid, but they let us go on, on our way.

15 JUDGE MAY: No. Mr. Isufi, could you just concentrate on the

16 question: How far away were the men, when they got out of the car, from

17 you?

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They were very close to us.

19 JUDGE MAY: Can you give us an idea of metres or something of the

20 sort?

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Maybe 15 metres away, not further.

22 Fifteen or twenty, approximately.

23 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

24 Q. I understand that you -- in your statement, you explained how you

25 crossed the road, that you didn't see them, and that afterwards, they

Page 3996

1 appeared on the road. Is that correct?

2 JUDGE MAY: Now, we've been through this. Mr. Milosevic, this is

3 the way the time is taken up, through repetition. He's explained. Now,

4 we've got to the stage where the men were out of the car, they were 15 to

5 20 metres away from him. I suggest you move on from there.

6 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

7 Q. Did you run as you were fleeing from them?

8 A. We started to walk faster, in fact.

9 Q. You said that these people were wearing masks.

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. What did those masks look like?

12 A. The usual masks.

13 Q. You mean what you pull over your head; is that it?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. With slits for the eyes and mouth, or no slits for the mouth?

16 A. I'm not sure I could see them, if there were any slits, because I

17 was very much scared.

18 Q. And you said that they had baseball caps.

19 A. I didn't understand the question.

20 Q. Well, when speaking of them, you said that they had baseball caps.

21 A. Yes.

22 MR. RYNEVELD: Your Honours, as you know, I don't like to

23 interfere. However, if the witness is going to be challenged by something

24 he is alleged to have said in his statement, it ought to be accurate. I

25 don't know whether it's a matter of translation in the copy that the

Page 3997

1 witness -- that the accused is looking at, but in fairness, the witness

2 does not have a statement in front of him, and there are a couple of

3 points that are put to him now that he is alleged to have said that I

4 can't find in the copy of the statement.

5 JUDGE MAY: Let's get it straight. One is the baseball cap, which

6 in the statement refers to a peaked-type cap. What was the other point?

7 MR. RYNEVELD: There's a reference to masks.

8 JUDGE MAY: He agreed with the masks.

9 MR. RYNEVELD: But it wasn't in the statement.

10 JUDGE MAY: Certainly not in the statement.

11 MR. RYNEVELD: No, but it was said -- it was said that it was --

12 that it was in the statement. These are the kinds of things that --

13 JUDGE MAY: I don't think it was. I mean, it was put, of course,

14 in a misleading way.

15 MR. RYNEVELD: That's my point.

16 JUDGE MAY: Let us get the description from the witness now.

17 Mr. Isufi --

18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Just one moment, please.

19 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Milosevic, we need to clear this up.

20 What were these -- you tell us now: What were these men wearing?

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They were wearing police uniforms.

22 JUDGE MAY: Yes. And what did they have on their heads?

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They were -- some of them had masks.

24 JUDGE MAY: Did they have any sort of hats on?

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I didn't see them wearing any hats.

Page 3998

1 JUDGE MAY: Can you do anything more to describe the type of mask

2 it was?

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The ones you put on your -- over

4 your head.


6 Yes, Mr. Milosevic.

7 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

8 Q. Just a question before I go on. You say some wore masks. How

9 many of them wore masks?

10 A. I saw one of them wearing a mask. The others, I wasn't able to

11 identify.

12 Q. I'm not talking about identifying them, but what did the others

13 wear?

14 A. The three of them had worn police uniforms.

15 Q. And a moment ago, when asked by Mr. May, you said that they wore

16 masks on their heads. I'm asking about their heads now.

17 A. I said masks.

18 Q. And you said that they didn't have anything else on their heads,

19 in response to that same question; is that right?

20 A. No, they didn't. No, they didn't have anything on their heads.

21 Q. That means that I was wrong when I mentioned the baseball caps;

22 right?

23 JUDGE MAY: He said they didn't have anything on, so there's no

24 point going on with it.

25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Let me read you what I received from

Page 3999

1 you. I didn't write this. It is a database of the International Crisis

2 Group, and then all the rest of it is what the opposite side provided me

3 with as being a witness statement with the facts, and it says, at the

4 bottom, and it is page -- a page that has been marked 0305163. At the

5 bottom of that page, there's a paragraph, which reads as follows:

6 "I travelled with a group of 20 persons from Mazgit to Pristina.

7 When we crossed the road at Orlovic, nearby a white Passat stopped, and it

8 was moving at great speed. Three men got out of the car, wearing blue

9 camouflage uniforms with black masks, baseball caps," and so on and so

10 forth.

11 Therefore -- have you found that passage?

12 JUDGE MAY: What is this statement, Mr. Milosevic? We haven't got

13 it. We've got a reference to a peak-type cap.

14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] It was what was supplied with the

15 statement from the International Crisis Group, and it was handed over

16 together with the witness statement.

17 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Ryneveld, no doubt that's a separate statement

18 which you disclosed to the accused.

19 MR. RYNEVELD: Undoubtedly. We've disclosed everything regarding

20 this witness, but this is not contained in the 92 bis material, but it's

21 been disclosed to the accused, yes.

22 JUDGE MAY: So what is put to you, Mr. Isufi, is this: That in a

23 statement you made to the International Crisis Group, you describe the men

24 as wearing blue camouflage uniforms with black masks and baseball caps.

25 Can you -- in a moment, Mr. Tapuskovic. I'm asking the witness a

Page 4000

1 question.

2 Can you help us as to why you said that or whether there's an

3 inaccuracy or something of that sort?

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I didn't say with caps.

5 [Trial Chamber confers]

6 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Tapuskovic, what is it?

7 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

8 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please, Mr. Tapuskovic.

9 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] The statement that Mr. Milosevic

10 is referring to is under the number of 003163, and it has been disclosed.

11 It was disclosed a long time ago. The amicus has it, and it is something

12 which exists in the Prosecution documents.

13 MR. RYNEVELD: Absolutely, Your Honour. I have a copy of that

14 document here.

15 JUDGE MAY: So there's no mystery about this, you are under an

16 obligation to disclose all the statements which you have which are

17 relevant to what a witness has said. As far as the Court is concerned,

18 you only serve on the Court, produce to the Court, the relevant documents

19 which are to be admitted into evidence. This particular document is one

20 which you've disclosed under your duty to do so; it has nothing to do with

21 the document which you've disclosed to us. I'm just going to confer.

22 [Trial Chamber confers]

23 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Ryneveld, you can disclose to us in due course --

24 I don't suppose you've got copies of that statement now, but we'll have it

25 and we'll have it as an exhibit.

Page 4001

1 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you, Your Honour. I was going to recommend

2 that I do that. The document is clear. We can provide it during the

3 break.

4 JUDGE MAY: Yes, if you would.

5 [Trial Chamber confers]

6 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Now, what we're going to do, Mr. Milosevic, is

7 this: We're going to have this statement put into evidence. It will be an

8 exhibit, this other statement. We've heard the discrepancy which you've

9 referred to, and you can move on to the next point.

10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Just before I do so, one more

11 question, please, as I don't know the procedure here. When you have two

12 statements or several documents, now, if I point out a contradiction, do

13 you enter it into evidence as an exhibit, or do you take separate

14 decisions on when you're going to do that?

15 JUDGE MAY: It depends entirely on the circumstances. If a

16 statement is exhibited, then of course it becomes part of the evidence and

17 you will be able, in due course, to point out any discrepancies. If there

18 are discrepancies of importance and the statement isn't before the Court,

19 you can ask that it be put before the Court. That's your right, to ask

20 that it be exhibited. So far in this case, I think I'm right in saying

21 that if there have been important discrepancies, various statements have

22 been exhibited during the course of the evidence of the witness.

23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] So they're included whenever there

24 has been a discrepancy of some kind. I merely wish to emphasise that

25 every statement which speaks about incompatibility, or rather, the

Page 4002

1 falsehood of the testimony, is relevant. But let me move on.

2 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

3 Q. You said, therefore, a moment ago, that you were escaping, that it

4 was night-time, and that you weren't able to see clearly or to notice the

5 details. Is that right?

6 A. What date are you thinking of?

7 Q. I'm talking about that alleged appearance of the three men in a

8 car. That's the event I'm referring to, the one you have been talking

9 about. You say you were fleeing, it was night - that's what you said -

10 and that you weren't able to see the details. Is that correct or not?

11 A. No, this is not right. It was not at night. It was halfway

12 through the day. It was about 12.00.

13 Q. I don't understand anything, then. A moment ago, the witness said

14 that it was night-time.

15 JUDGE MAY: That is right, but -- just a moment. It may be that

16 there's a problem about the transcript, which we'll need to look into, or

17 the translation. You see, Mr. Isufi --

18 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter corrects herself. It was he

19 said, "I was afraid, I couldn't see." It was not night but it was

20 misunderstanding.

21 JUDGE MAY: Very well. Yes.

22 What time of day was it? Tell us again.

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was midday.

24 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

25 Q. When I asked you about the masks and caps, you said that you were

Page 4003

1 afraid, terrified, and that you couldn't say exactly -- you couldn't give

2 us the details exactly. Is that right?

3 A. That's right, except at that moment I just looked and then we

4 started running.

5 Q. So as you were in that state, you were afraid and running and had

6 your back turned to them, you said a moment ago that you couldn't give us

7 the details, how then did you happen to notice this whole series of

8 details that are written down in this paper that I quoted a moment ago?

9 You said black masks, baseball caps, knives, rifles, bombs, all sorts of

10 details which can be imagined on somebody's uniform. So you saw all those

11 details, did you?

12 A. Yes, I saw these things.

13 Q. All right. Very well. I just have a few more questions.

14 In your statement, the one you gave on the 10th of May, which was

15 quoted at the beginning, you claim that you left Pristina, having decided

16 to leave town after consulting with some people. Is that correct?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. That is on page 6 of your statement, paragraph 2. Well, all

19 right, let's not lose time. But you confirm that that is so, do you?

20 Now, please answer my next question, which is linked to that, when you

21 said that that was so. So after consulting some people about it, you

22 decided to leave town. In the statement you gave to the members of the

23 International Crisis Group, you state that you left Pristina because you

24 were thrown out of your accommodation, your lodgings, when five members of

25 the MUP ordered you to leave immediately. Now, tell me what is the

Page 4004

1 correct version: What it says in your statement, which you have just

2 confirmed, or this second thing that is contained in what you -- in the

3 statement you made to the International Crisis Group? Which of the two is

4 correct?

5 A. The truth is that on Sunday we went, and on the 30th we -- the

6 next day, we left Prishtina because they had started to expel the citizens

7 of Prishtina and throw them out into the city streets.

8 Q. I'm asking you very specifically which of these two of your

9 statements is correct. I'm not asking you about what you think about the

10 population of Pristina, the citizens of Pristina, but you are testifying

11 to what happened to you. And according to these two statements, what

12 happened to you was two things: Either the first contained in the

13 statement or the second in the statement of the International Crisis

14 Group. Which is correct; the first or the second?

15 A. What I said is exact.

16 JUDGE MAY: No. Help us with this: Did members of the MUP order

17 you to leave your accommodation?

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. They started to throw out

19 groups of people out of Dragodan, out of the neighbourhood where we had

20 been. They started to expel them in the direction of Prishtina city

21 centre.

22 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

23 Q. I asked you just to confirm what you said in your statement of the

24 10th of May.

25 JUDGE MAY: It's difficult for a witness, particularly if he

Page 4005

1 hasn't got the copy of the statement in front of him, to be able to answer

2 a question like that. If he had the statement, yes, but he hasn't. Now,

3 what he said is that he was told -- he was talking about leaving and he

4 wasn't told to leave by members of the MUP.

5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May, I don't understand why, if

6 the witness is telling the truth, he has to have a written statement,

7 because the truth is one; it is a single truth. He is testifying about

8 what happened to him. Why would he need a written statement to remember

9 his testimony? He knows what happened to him, I assume.

10 JUDGE MAY: Look, he has -- you are asking him: Which statement

11 is right? You then read out a section of two statements. It is liable to

12 confuse a witness when you then ask which of the statements is right.

13 That is the point. He hasn't got a copy of it. Now, unless you've got

14 something else about this particular point, we will move on. You must

15 bring your cross-examination to a close by the break because you will have

16 had much more than the usual time.

17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I will bring it to a close by the

18 break. There's no problem there.

19 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

20 Q. So regardless of the statements, a moment ago you confirmed - and

21 I'm asking you again whether it is right that you decided to leave the

22 town after having consulted some people. Is that right?

23 A. No, that's not right. On the 30th, the police started to throw

24 out the populous into the town of Prishtina.

25 Q. Are you conscious of the fact that a moment ago, when I asked you

Page 4006

1 whether it was right that you decided to leave town after consulting some

2 people, your answer was: Yes, that is correct. Now you say: No, that

3 is not correct. What is the truth: What you said five minutes ago or what

4 you're saying now?

5 A. What I say now is true.

6 Q. Why, then, five minutes ago did you say that what -- in response

7 to my question that that was correct if you say that what you're saying

8 now is correct?

9 A. It's true that the police started to expel the populous and

10 pointed them towards the train station.

11 Q. In your statement, you wrote it differently, and I'm just drawing

12 attention to that major discrepancy, and I have no further questions.

13 JUDGE MAY: Yes.

14 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you, Your Honours. I've just had delivered

15 copies of the document, which you may wish to have tendered as, was it

16 117A? But I do want to point one thing out, and that is that the document

17 which has been disclosed to everybody, according to our duty, is as a

18 result of a questionnaire taken in the camps. This particular one was

19 taken on the 3rd of May, 1999. But it must be pointed out that these

20 questionnaires are not signed by the witness or even acknowledged by them

21 in terms of whether or not they're accurate. It's a questionnaire that

22 people fill out, and the witness doesn't have an opportunity to see what's

23 written. So on that basis, it's not truly a statement but it is a record

24 of what someone says this witness once told them. On that basis, I would

25 provide this to the Court.

Page 4007

1 JUDGE MAY: Thank you.

2 Yes, Mr. Tapuskovic. Any questions?

3 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, we have no

4 questions for this witness. Thank you.

5 JUDGE MAY: Any re-examination?

6 MR. RYNEVELD: No, thank you, Your Honour.

7 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

8 JUDGE MAY: Yes. We'll have an exhibit for this one.

9 THE REGISTRAR: This one will be 117A, Your Honour.

10 JUDGE MAY: I'm not sure that I agree. If this is the system that

11 these exhibits are getting A and B, the way we've always done it is

12 they're labelled sequentially. So perhaps over the adjournment we could

13 go back, re-number the facts as Judge Kwon had it as it was the other day,

14 and we'll re-number these ones so we'll come up to whatever the

15 appropriate number is.

16 Mr. Isufi, that concludes your evidence. Thank you for coming to

17 the International Tribunal to give it. You're now free to go.

18 We'll adjourn for half --

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

20 JUDGE MAY: We'll adjourn now for half an hour.

21 [The witness withdrew]

22 --- Recess taken at 11.02 a.m.

23 --- On resuming at 11.34 a.m.

24 [The witness entered court]

25 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Let the witness take the declaration.

Page 4008


2 [Witness answered through interpreter]

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

4 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

5 JUDGE MAY: Yes. If you'd like to take a seat.

6 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you, Your Honour.

7 The Prosecution calls Mr. Emin Kabashi.

8 Examined by Mr. Ryneveld:

9 Q. Mr. Kabashi, do I understand, sir, that you're 53 years old and

10 that you are a Muslim of ethnic Albanian extraction? Is that correct?

11 Can you hear me?

12 JUDGE MAY: Try again.


14 Q. Sir, do I understand correctly that you're 53 years old?

15 A. [No interpretation]

16 Q. And you are a Muslim?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And are you of ethnic -- Albanian ethnicity and that you live in

19 Fushe Kosove?

20 A. Yes, that's correct.

21 Q. Sir, I understand that you hold a Ph.D. degree from Pristina

22 University. Is that also correct?

23 A. Yes, that's correct.

24 Q. In what field? What is your Ph.D. in?

25 A. In the field of literature, Albanian literature.

Page 4009

1 Q. Are you married?

2 A. Yes, I am.

3 Q. Do you have any children?

4 A. I have three children; two sons and a daughter.

5 Q. Now, this place called Fushe Kosove --

6 MR. RYNEVELD: Your Honours, if we could turn to Exhibit 83.

7 Might the witness be shown that, and could we put it on the ELMO. Exhibit

8 83, page 6.

9 Q. Witness, you're being shown on the overhead projector that we call

10 an ELMO an exhibit that is a map of Kosovo, a Kosovo atlas; and on page 6,

11 there appears to be, about a third of the way on the bottom right-hand

12 side, a community with the name of Fushe Kosove. Do you see that?

13 A. Yes, I see it.

14 Q. And if we turn the page to number 7 - that appears to be the

15 adjoining page - you see Pristina on page 7?

16 A. Yes, I see it.

17 Q. How far is your community, Fushe Kosove, from Pristina,

18 approximately?

19 A. It is seven kilometres away.

20 Q. All right. And what municipality is Fushe Kosove in?

21 A. Up until 1989, when we were deprived of the autonomy of Kosova, it

22 was with Prishtina. As of that time, it is an independent municipality.

23 Q. All right. Now, sir, did you give a statement to the officers of

24 the ICTY on the 24th of April, 1999?

25 A. Yes, I did.

Page 4010

1 Q. And subsequently, sir, were you shown a copy of that statement

2 translated into your language, Albanian, and did you have a chance to read

3 that on the 31st of January of this year, 2002?

4 A. Yes. They gave it to me and I read it.

5 Q. And did you at that time solemnly declare that the contents of

6 that statement, as you then read it, were true and accurate to the best of

7 your information and belief?

8 A. Yes, I solemnly declare that it is correct.

9 Q. All right.

10 MR. RYNEVELD: Your Honours, I wonder whether that statement might

11 now be marked as the next exhibit.

12 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be Prosecutor's Exhibit

13 120.

14 MR. RYNEVELD: If it please the Court, I propose -- you have the

15 full statement as 120. I propose to read a very brief outline of what is

16 contained in that statement.

17 Your Honours, according to my summary of that statement, it

18 appears that on the 25th of March, 1999, there was a lot of movement of

19 Serb police and armed civilians in the street near the witness's house in

20 Fushe Kosove. That evening, a bomb was thrown in his house and there was

21 a volley of automatic gunfire. The witness took other occupants of the

22 house to a neighbour's house for safety.

23 The following day, the witness returned to his home and found that

24 the windows were broken and the house had been ransacked. His brother

25 found 162 bullet cartridges around his home. The witness was also told at

Page 4011

1 that time that 44 people were killed in the neighbourhood that night and

2 was informed by a neighbour that the police were looking to kill the

3 witness. Shortly thereafter, that neighbour, along with his wife and son,

4 were killed.

5 Well, the witness and some of his family fled to Pristina, where

6 they stayed for three days, until the arrival of the Serb army and special

7 police, who broke down the front door. He then describes that the army

8 wore dark blue camouflage uniforms with VJ insignia and the Special Police

9 wore lighter blue camouflage uniforms and masks. Both army and police

10 were armed with automatic rifles. They separated the men from the women

11 and children, threatened them at gunpoint and demanded money. The women

12 had their identity cards taken from them and destroyed. The group were

13 then taken to another neighbourhood, where they sought shelter at an

14 Albanian-owned house. The following day, Serb police came to that home

15 and told them to leave, saying, "Get out. You asked for NATO. Go to

16 Macedonia or Albanian. Anyone who does not leave, we will catch and burn.

17 This is Serbia." As they were leaving, the police told him, i.e., the

18 witness, "Get out of here. Go to Albania."

19 He then describes in his statement they were eventually directed

20 by Serb police through Pristina in a convoy. A tank caused the column to

21 divide into two, and the witness's group were directed to the railway

22 station. En route, the column was stopped at a Serb checkpoint. The

23 police had a list of names, and the witness saw that the list contained

24 his name along with some other people known to him. The witness then gave

25 the police a false identity. He was again asked for money and was told

Page 4012

1 that if he didn't leave for Albania immediately, he would be killed.

2 Snipers prevented members of the convoy from deviating from the route.

3 The witness arrived at the railway station, from where he could

4 see houses burning and homes being shelled. The witness waited at the

5 railway station for the rest of his family for some three days, during

6 which time he saw people being forced like cattle onto the trains by armed

7 police. He describes that the trains so crowded that some died in the

8 crush. He counted an average of 5 to 12 trains leaving daily, most at

9 night. The witness finally got onto a train to Elez Han and was ordered

10 to walk between the rails to the Macedonian border. He stayed there for

11 six days and nights, awaiting his family to arrive, and noted trains and

12 buses arriving every day with more people. He then explains details of

13 how he did not want to leave Kosovo but was forced to do so by the Serb

14 army and police.

15 That's a very brief capsulated summary of what is contained in the

16 witness statement that has been marked as an exhibit in these proceedings.

17 Those are my questions. Thank you.

18 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Milosevic.

19 Cross-examined by Mr. Milosevic:

20 Q. [Interpretation] Which year did you get your doctorate from the

21 university?

22 A. In 1989, 23rd of March, when Kosova's autonomy was stripped of it.

23 Q. You got a doctorate at the department for the Albanian language

24 and literature?

25 A. In the branch of Albanian literature.

Page 4013

1 Q. Where did you work after that, after you got your doctorate?

2 A. I worked in Drenovc, in the Institute of -- in the Ferronikel

3 plant.

4 Q. You worked there? I assume that you worked there even before you

5 got your doctorate; right?

6 A. From 1974, I was prevented to work in the education sector, and

7 that is where I worked for the last ten years, until 1992.

8 Q. And why could you not work in the education field in 1974, or from

9 1974? Was this interpreted properly?

10 A. In 1964, I was a primary school student. In 1974, I was

11 imprisoned in the high school [as interpreted] because I explained

12 Albanian literature to my high school students.

13 Q. How old were you in 1974? I can't get the math right.

14 A. I was 24, 25 years old.

15 Q. Do we understand each other? Are you speaking of 1974?

16 A. I'm speaking of 1974.

17 Q. And what were you then? In school? You say you were in school,

18 you were 24 years old?

19 A. No. At that age, I was a graduated professor of literature.

20 Q. You say that you were imprisoned because you worked in a secondary

21 school. I assume that these were your pupils and you spoke to them about

22 the Albanian literature and that's why they imprisoned you. Did I

23 understand this correctly?

24 A. I talked to the children about the authors and works that were

25 forbidden by the regime of that time, the communist regime.

Page 4014

1 Q. But all the time, in the school programme, there was Albanian

2 language and literature, and also at the university where you obtained

3 your doctorate, there was a department for the Albanian language and

4 literature. Isn't that right?

5 A. They were Albanian school pupils and definitely had to learn

6 something about Albanian literature.

7 Q. That is not controversial, but who are these authors whose works

8 were forbidden, Albanian authors whose works were forbidden and you were

9 arrested on account of that?

10 A. In the indictment of 1974, it was said that I explained to the

11 school pupils about Gjergj Fishta.

12 Q. And who banned this? Who banned the mention of Albanian authors

13 to pupils?

14 A. The authorities of the regime of that time, the administration at

15 that time.

16 Q. At that time, in Pristina, where you worked, or in the province of

17 Kosovo Metohija in general, were there Albanians in all high positions?

18 Yes or no.

19 A. The Albanians in high position? There were even Albanians in high

20 positions in the Federation at that time, not only in Prishtina.

21 Q. Does that mean that it was Albanians who arrested you because you

22 spoke about that author who you mentioned just now, Fishta, as you had put

23 it?

24 A. No. I was arrested by -- because of the communist mentality that

25 prevailed at that time and infiltrated into the culture and literature of

Page 4015

1 the people, and which replaced national culture at that time.

2 Q. My question was different: Were you arrested by Albanians?

3 A. No. I was arrested by the employees of a regime that replaced

4 national ideology with communist ideology.

5 Q. [Previous translation continues]... understand. These employees

6 of the regime that you mentioned, were they Albanians or not?

7 A. They were both Albanians and Serbs.

8 Q. Did you stand trial on any particular counts at that time?

9 A. After six months of investigation, I was released, but without the

10 right to work any more in education.

11 Q. Does that mean that you were in prison for six months and that you

12 were then released, without standing trial?

13 A. Not only in prison, but under very terrible kinds of

14 investigation.

15 Q. And who was in charge of this investigation? Who conducted it?

16 A. It was led by the employees of the State Security Service.

17 Q. Were they Albanians?

18 A. They were both Albanians and Serbs.

19 Q. And how many of them carried out this investigation through

20 interviews with you in 1974, during those six months?

21 A. More than four.

22 Q. Can you give us their names?

23 A. No, because I didn't pay particular care to remember them.

24 Q. But you say that they investigated you for six months?

25 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Milosevic, we are dealing now with events a

Page 4016

1 quarter of a century ago. It does not seem to assist this Tribunal to

2 have evidence in such detail about events so long ago. They are nothing

3 to do with the witness's evidence or his statement, which has to do with

4 events, and serious events, in 1999. So will you move on.

5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, it does have something to do

6 with this, because he talks about measures of repression that were

7 allegedly carried out against him, and also, at that time, practically all

8 high positions in Kosovo and Metohija were held by Albanians, and in

9 Pristina. But I shall move on.

10 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

11 Q. In your statement, you do not mention with a single word any

12 consequence of the NATO aggression, or rather, the bombing; you just

13 mentioned the date when it started, the 24th of March. Can you say why?

14 A. In my statement, I talked about the most important -- the most

15 terrible genocide that was visited upon a people, when an entire

16 geographic area was emptied of its population and the population was

17 expelled.

18 JUDGE MAY: The statement refers to the NATO bombing. This is

19 page 6. "Did not affect residential areas. I saw the bombing of Pristina

20 airport."

21 Is that right, Dr. Kabashi?

22 "I saw the bombing of the barracks outside Pristina and I saw the

23 bombing of the courthouse and the main police station."

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The central Prishtina prison.

25 That's right, Your Honour. It's accurate.

Page 4017

1 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

2 Q. And are you aware of the fact that during the bombing, which

3 lasted for 78 days, 40 per cent of the bombs were precisely thrown on

4 Kosovo and Metohija?

5 JUDGE MAY: No. That's not a matter for the witness. He deals

6 with events which he himself saw, as far as the bombing is concerned, but

7 fairly shortly after that, he left Kosovo.

8 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

9 Q. All right. Up until the day you left Kosovo. Do you claim that

10 nothing in Pristina, or, as far as you know, in Kosovo and Metohija, was

11 bombed, apart from those administrative buildings which you mentioned,

12 including the barracks, the courthouse, the building of the Ministry of

13 the Interior?

14 A. No, I don't know anything about things that were bombed, only

15 those things which I saw with my own eyes.

16 Q. From your statement, I understand that you are not a member of the

17 KLA.

18 A. No, you haven't understood it. I was a member of the KLA.

19 Q. And since when were you a member of the KLA?

20 A. From the day when you held a speech in Fushe Kosove, and under

21 the -- 1997, on 28th of March --

22 Q. So you were a member of the KLA. You meant 1987, did you, or was

23 it not properly interpreted?

24 A. On the 28th of November, 1997, when a teacher was killed in

25 Drenica.

Page 4018

1 Q. I didn't understand you. A moment ago you said you were a member

2 of the KLA since I held a speech in Kosovo Polje [sic], and that was in

3 1987. Was the interpretation of that correct or not?

4 A. I said because of the -- the reason was your speech in Kosovo

5 Polje. From then, I saw that the only way for our people to win their

6 freedom was by means of the gun.

7 Q. And as far as I'm able to understand, it was then that you joined

8 the KLA, that is to say, in 1997. Is that correct or not?

9 A. That's right.

10 Q. And how did you work in the interests of that movement from 1987

11 to 1997? How did you do that work in that period?

12 A. Everything that I could within my intellectual and human

13 capacities.

14 Q. What, for example?

15 A. I prepared a lot of literature, I read a lot, I read my history,

16 and then I explained to people and I worked out for myself that freedom

17 cannot be taken for granted; it has to be won. And I supported every

18 movement that emerged in Kosova after 1968, when I was imprisoned for the

19 first time, down to 1989, when I was imprisoned for the last time. And

20 all this enabled me to understand, and I made every effort to explain this

21 to others, that only the path of war can bring us freedom.

22 Q. So since 1967 up until 1989, on several occasions, you were put in

23 prison. We heard about one case at the beginning, but let me ask you how

24 many times you were imprisoned.

25 A. Not 1967, but 1968. I was imprisoned in 1968, when Albanian

Page 4019

1 students demonstrated in Prishtina and the streets of Prishtina were

2 covered with blood. At that time, I was in the third grade of high

3 school. I have been imprisoned three times.

4 Q. In 1974, you said. So in 1968 was the first time, and what about

5 the third time? When was that?

6 A. 1981.

7 Q. In 1981. That was after those major demonstrations in 1981. Was

8 it in that connection?

9 A. Yes, it was in connection with the demonstrations.

10 Q. And is it true that during the whole of that time, to which your

11 explanations about your imprisonment relate, that during that whole

12 period, the police structures and legal structures and structures of power

13 and authority in Kosovo and Metohija were Albanian, or predominantly

14 Albanian were the vast majority? Is that correct or not?

15 A. If Your Honour will permit, I will answer -- I will reply to the

16 accused, but this is not a matter to do with my statement.

17 Q. All right. Let's move on, then.

18 When did you hear for the first time -- when did you hear for the

19 first time of some terrorist actions perpetrated by the KLA?

20 A. I'm not aware of the KLA having committed terrorist acts because

21 it was not a terrorist organisation.

22 Q. And how would you call, for example, the planting of bombs in

23 shops, marketplaces, bombs in public places, and the killing of civilians?

24 Were those terrorist acts or not?

25 A. Civilians were not killed in operations of this kind.

Page 4020

1 Q. You claim, therefore, that in the actions of the KLA, civilians

2 weren't victims, that they were not killed?

3 JUDGE MAY: We're not going to get very far with this sort of

4 argument. It will be for us to characterise these activities and to

5 determine what happened. This witness can only really give evidence about

6 what he actually knows himself.

7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well.

8 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

9 Q. In view of the fact that, as you claim, from 1968 onwards,

10 throughout all those years, and finally, from 1997, you were an active

11 member of the KLA, the policemen that you mention, did they interrogate

12 you unfoundedly with regard to your activities within the KLA, or not?

13 A. This question is not clear to me. Either that, or the translation

14 is not in order.

15 JUDGE MAY: No. It's not for the witness to say.

16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The witness explained and mentioned

17 the names of two policemen who interviewed him with respect to the

18 activities of the KLA in a way which was considered unfounded, and

19 everything that he said gives rise and gives a basis for interrogation

20 with respect to KLA activities. So I think the question is clear. As he

21 was an active member of the KLA, why does he consider that he was not

22 justly interrogated with respect to the activities of that organisation?

23 JUDGE MAY: It depends what the interrogation was. It's not going

24 to help us to know what the interrogation was, but what you can ask him is

25 what his activities were in the KLA.

Page 4021

1 Can you help us with that, Dr. Kabashi? What did you do for the

2 KLA?

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If you allow me, Your Honours, I may

4 respond to the accused's question.

5 JUDGE MAY: Don't bother about the interrogation. The

6 interrogation is irrelevant for these purposes. But can you help us as to

7 what you did for the KLA? You say you were a member.

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I can, definitely. I was

9 responsible to help with finding accommodation for the displaced

10 population from the zones where fighting was taking place. Then I was

11 responsible to supply this population and the soldiers with footwear and

12 clothes. Then I was also responsible to take care and to try and find the

13 necessary food supplies for the displaced population and for the soldiers.

14 Then, as far as I could and as far as I knew, I helped in the supply of

15 the military hospitals, those that were and those that were being set up,

16 to supply them with the necessary medicaments, and so on.

17 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

18 Q. So on the basis of everything that you have spoken about so far

19 relating to your activities from 1968 onwards, are we able to conclude

20 that you were a fighter of the -- an advocate of the anti-Serb policy?

21 A. I was a fighter of the anti-Albanian policy, against anti-Albanian

22 policy.

23 Q. And what were the relationships like in Kosovo Polje, where you

24 lived up until 1998, all those years? What were the relationships like

25 there? There were quite a lot of Serbs there, Albanians, and other ethnic

Page 4022












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French

13 and English transcripts. Pages 4022 to 4033.













Page 4034

1 groups too, and what were the relationships that prevailed in Kosovo

2 Polje?

3 A. Up until the day that the accused held his speech in Fushe Kosove,

4 his notorious anti-Albanian speech, the relations in Fushe Kosove, as far

5 as I know, were relations of an ideological brotherhood. As of that time,

6 that is, 1989 onwards, these relations became those of open hostility

7 because of the simple reason that Kosova plain, under the orders and

8 dictate of the mechanisms of the power of the accused, had become the

9 epicentre of the popular revolution.

10 Q. And can you tell me any position that I made in what you called an

11 anti-Albanian speech I made that was anti-Albanian? Can you tell me what

12 it was that I said that could be characterised as anti-Albanian in 1989?

13 A. I am not obligated to remember by rote the speech of the accused,

14 but if the Court is interested, I can find evidence to prove this in two

15 places: In the archives of the Committee of the Communist League of the

16 Autonomous Province of Kosovo then and the archives of the Central

17 Committee of the then Serbia.

18 Q. You say that that speech of mine was anti-Albanian and that it

19 motivated you to undertake the actions that you explained to us. Now, if

20 that is correct, if what you say is true, then you would have to know what

21 it was in that speech that you thought was anti-Albanian.

22 JUDGE MAY: He says he cannot now remember but refers us to a copy

23 of the speech. We've had references to it before. No doubt in due course

24 we'll get a copy of it. But for the moment, we can't go on over this

25 ground again. Yes. Now, if you move on to another topic.

Page 4035

1 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

2 Q. All right. You had occasion to see a copy of that speech here.

3 Are you a member of any political organisation at present,

4 Mr. Kabashi?

5 A. No, I'm not.

6 Q. And do you know the reasons why, at the end of 1998 and 1999, the

7 police patrolled part of the town you lived in?

8 A. Either you have not formulated the question properly or you --

9 you've mistaken the years. It's 1989 and 1999 [as interpreted].

10 Q. Yes. 1998 and 1999. That's what I'm talking about.

11 A. In addition to the reason that they wanted to show the muscle of

12 the Serb forces, I didn't see any other reason for that.

13 Q. You know nothing about any kind of criminal activity for which the

14 police patrolled the town at that time?

15 A. I didn't work in the investigation that is to know which criminal

16 acts they have committed.

17 Q. All right, you didn't deal in any investigation. I assume that

18 you went about your professional work, in addition to your KLA activities.

19 Now, do you know, from that 1989 to 1999, how many of your colleagues and

20 your fellow Albanians graduated and received doctorates at the department

21 for Albanian -- for the Albanian language and literature at Pristina

22 University?

23 A. This is up to the administration staff of the faculty of Prishtina

24 to know. If the Court is interested, I might ask them to give me

25 documents. It is not relevant to my evidence.

Page 4036

1 JUDGE MAY: No. The fact is, we have heard evidence about this,

2 and if you can help us, do; but if you can't, if you don't know, just say

3 so.

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I do not know -- I cannot give

5 you any accurate figures, Your Honour.

6 JUDGE MAY: Very well.

7 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

8 Q. And do you know that the Albanian language and literature

9 department at the Pristina University worked in the Albanian language

10 right up until the year 1999, up until the war, actually? Are you aware

11 of that fact?

12 A. Yes, I'm fully aware of that, but it didn't work in the facilities

13 of the university. But even this, I think, does not relate to my

14 evidence.

15 Q. All right. Let's move on, then.

16 Were you happy to see the NATO aggression against Yugoslavia take

17 place?

18 A. I supported and approved the NATO actions because it was taking

19 under protection a people that, on the basis of the plans of the Serb

20 academy, was meant to be displaced and dismembered as a people.

21 Q. And what plan on the part of the Serbian academy and sciences?

22 You're talking about the Serbian Academy of Arts and Sciences, are you

23 not?

24 A. I'm talking about the programmes for the extermination of the

25 Albanians.

Page 4037

1 Q. Whose programme? You said the Serbian academy's.

2 A. Of course I said the Serb academy. One of the programmes is

3 titled "The extermination of the Albanians."

4 Q. Are you talking about the Serbian Academy of Sciences?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And which document of the Serbian academy speaks about the

7 extermination of Albanians?

8 A. It is a document of 1884, until the one that you have

9 implemented. One of Vladan Djordjevic.

10 Q. Is this a mistake? Did you say 1884, a document of 1884? That's

11 what it says on the transcript and that's what the interpretation was. Did

12 you actually mean 1884?

13 A. I mean the programme of Vladan Djordjevic, 1884, which has been

14 described by world scientists as the book most full of hate against a

15 people that has ever been written. But Your Honours, I think this is not

16 relevant to my evidence.

17 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Milosevic, let's move on.

18 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

19 Q. All right. So did you strive for NATO aggression in your circle,

20 or did you come out in favour of it publicly as well?

21 A. The manifestation of my support for NATO was public. I didn't

22 have any reasons to keep it secret, for the simple reason that on the day

23 when I was -- when I left Fushe Kosove for Prishtina, I heard the alarm go

24 off about the NATO airstrikes, which saved me from being captured by the

25 Serb police and army forces.

Page 4038

1 Q. At the start of the NATO aggression against Yugoslavia, were there

2 any conflicts between the KLA and the Ministry of the Interior and the

3 army in the area that you're well acquainted with, that is to say, the

4 Pristina area?

5 A. In the Prishtina area, there were conflicts, but in Fushe Kosove

6 area, there weren't any conflicts.

7 Q. Do you know whether there were any urban -- whether there was any

8 urban fighting in the Pristina area?

9 A. During the NATO airstrikes, from the day I left Prishtina to take

10 care of my family, I know nothing. For that, yes.

11 Q. You claim that somebody attacked your house on that particular

12 day, the day you mention. Now, did I understand you correctly to say that

13 that attack on your house was perpetrated by the police?

14 A. Yes, by the police and by the local residents, who were drafted on

15 orders as policemen and as army members.

16 Q. And where were the attackers, the attackers on your house? Did

17 you see them?

18 A. I saw more than eight of them. Some of them I know personally.

19 Q. Were they in a vehicle of any kind or were they in front of your

20 house for you to be able to see them directly?

21 A. At the moment when they threw the bomb at my home, they got down

22 off a vehicle which was often seen patrolling in front of the street, in

23 front of the street before my house. The same vehicle -- they got into

24 the same vehicle and left with it.

25 Q. So they opened fire on your house and then left; is that what

Page 4039

1 you're claiming?

2 A. No. Before they threw the bomb at my home, then they shot at the

3 window, thinking that I or someone else from my family will be standing.

4 Q. But they didn't enter the house?

5 A. No, they didn't. They had not come to enter the house; they had

6 come to kill.

7 Q. Do you assume that then they would have entered the house, had

8 they come to kill you?

9 A. I don't know that. You might as well ask them.

10 Q. The vehicle that you're talking about, was it an official vehicle?

11 Did you see its licence plates? Did it have any kind of sign on it?

12 A. At that time in Fushe Kosove and Kosova, it didn't matter to us

13 what kind of vehicles they were. Of importance it was that people in

14 uniforms used to drive in them and patrol around.

15 Q. And do you know how many policemen and soldiers of the army of

16 Yugoslavia were killed or abducted in 1998 and 1999 by the KLA?

17 A. No. This was not my field. I was not in charge of any sort of

18 investigations in connection with this problem. This was something that

19 the police dealt with.

20 Q. And do you know, since you were following what was going on, and I

21 imagine that you were in the very focus of events, both in terms of your

22 education and in terms of the position you held, do you know that only in

23 1998, over 1.800 attacks were carried out?

24 JUDGE MAY: He says he doesn't know. Now, you should deal with

25 his evidence.

Page 4040

1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Oh, I will be dealing with his

2 statement, his evidence too.

3 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

4 Q. Do you know how many Albanians were killed before the war started?

5 JUDGE MAY: No. I'm not going to allow these questions. Just

6 move on to something else.

7 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

8 Q. Have you ever heard of the name of Gashi Osmani?

9 A. No, I've never heard this name.

10 Q. And have you heard of Enver Shala?

11 JUDGE MAY: This is a waste of time going through lists which the

12 witness says he knows nothing of. This is the way in which your time is

13 taken up.

14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May, I think that these are very

15 important issues, very important questions. The witness himself has said

16 that he held an important position within the KLA. There is an entire

17 list of Albanians here that were killed by the KLA precisely in Pristina,

18 where the witness had been working. The witness claims that he knew

19 nothing --

20 JUDGE MAY: Let's ask the witness about this, then: Do you know,

21 in Pristina, dealing with Pristina, of any Albanians who were killed, as

22 it is alleged, by the KLA?

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] With some preliminary explanation,

24 Your Honour, if I may explain. I didn't have any kind of function in the

25 KLA. I merely did my duties as a citizen who is fighting for freedom. I

Page 4041

1 don't know about these things and I was not involved in them, and I don't

2 know how many Albanians were killed by the KLA.


4 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

5 Q. Yes, but you said yourself that you're a member of the KLA. Do

6 you consider yourself to be an accomplice, then?

7 JUDGE MAY: This is totally irrelevant. He said he doesn't know.

8 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

9 Q. Do you know anything about abductions of both Serbs and Albanians

10 in 1998? Several hundreds of abductions. Do you know at least one?

11 A. These are fabrications of Serbian propaganda which was spread all

12 over the world as a pretext for the military and police operations in

13 Kosova, and at this time the Albanians were fighting for freedom, and the

14 accused had stimulated the KLA to fight.

15 Q. So I led the KLA to kill Albanians in Kosovo; is that your

16 assertion?

17 JUDGE MAY: Unless you've got some particular questions to ask

18 this witness about what he said in his statement, we'll bring this

19 cross-examination to a close. It's no good debating these general

20 political points. He said he doesn't know. Now, do you have any relevant

21 questions?

22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] For me, all these questions are

23 relevant, Mr. May. However, since you insist only upon that which is

24 written in his statement:

25 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Page 4042

1 Q. Well, you said that you went to the neighbouring house, together

2 with your family, after these events.

3 A. That's right, with eight members of my family I went to a

4 neighbour's house.

5 Q. Was this neighbour a Serb or an Albanian?

6 A. He was an Albanian. There were no Serbs in my neighbourhood.

7 Q. You said that you went to the railway station with a column of

8 other people. It is your assertion that the police had been looking for

9 you, searching for you, and you avoided this only by saying that your name

10 was different. Is that right?

11 A. I went in this column of people to the railway station after the

12 police had expelled me from my own house, from the house of a friend, and

13 another house, that is, three times within the space of four days.

14 Q. All right. So it was the police, according to what you have said,

15 threw you out three times. That is one fact. The other fact is that the

16 police had been searching for you - that is your assertion - and every

17 time they threw you out, they could not find you. But they did throw you

18 out. Is this logical, as far as you are concerned, this that you have

19 been saying?

20 A. I was thrown out twice by the police and once by the army, and the

21 reasoning behind it is -- the reason why the police was looking for me and

22 couldn't find me, that's up to the police to explain, but I'm explaining

23 what happened.

24 Q. You said that, at the railway station, you waited for three days

25 in order to meet your family; is that right?

Page 4043

1 A. That's right, for the simple reason that my family was very large

2 and was scattered in three places in Prishtina.

3 Q. So you waited for three days at the railway station in order to

4 get all of your family together. At the same time, it is your assertion

5 that the police was making Albanians board the train and travel. How come

6 nobody made you board a train during those three days at the railway

7 station?

8 A. To be quite accurate, I waited three days and three nights at the

9 railway station, and my turn came on the morning of the fourth day, when

10 policemen forced me and members of my family into a goods train.

11 Q. Yes, but in your statement you said that you waited for your

12 family for three days at the railway station. You didn't say that you

13 were waiting in a line at the railway station. You said that you spent

14 those three days waiting for your family.

15 A. Prishtina was cleansed neighbourhood by neighbourhood and I was

16 waiting for these neighbourhoods to be emptied. And members of my family

17 were expelled two days after myself, and then we were left somewhere where

18 I will call No Man's Land, on the border with Macedonia.

19 Q. I wanted us to clarify another issue, actually, the question that

20 I had put to you. You said two things in the statement: That you waited

21 for your family for three days at the railway station, and a little while

22 ago, you said that for three days you were waiting in a line in order to

23 board a train. So my question is: Were you waiting for your family for

24 three days or were you waiting in line to board the train for three days?

25 A. Even if I hadn't been waiting for my family, it was impossible to

Page 4044

1 board the trains because of the crush of people who were being expelled by

2 force from Prishtina. Moreover, I am of an age when it is hard to leave

3 Kosova. And moreover, I was waiting in hope that I would be able to be

4 joined by other members of my family, so that we could at least travel

5 together.

6 Q. Does that mean, what you've said just now, that there were so many

7 people and you couldn't board the train, that you could have -- that had

8 you been in a position to board the train on the first day, you would have

9 done so rather than waited for your family?

10 A. I don't know. I've never dealt in speculations of this kind. At

11 this time, I wasn't interested in this kind of theorising.

12 Q. This is no theory; these are two different statements. So were

13 you waiting for your family or were you waiting in line to board the

14 train?

15 A. I didn't say theory. The interpreter translated the word

16 "pandehma" as "theory," which I will say is suppositions, and at that

17 time I was not dealing with suppositions. Even if I were not waiting for

18 my family, I didn't have the chance to get onto the train, which was so

19 crushed because of all these people who were being forced to leave

20 Prishtina. I think I've made myself very clear now.

21 Q. Is it your assertion that the police was using force against

22 people at the railway station in order to have them board the trains?

23 A. [Previous translation continues]... using theory -- not only were

24 they using violence, but -- but one -- if one of the citizens tried to go

25 away and take some sidestreet, the police have killed them.

Page 4045

1 Q. Did you see any killings?

2 A. I didn't see any killings, but I saw a dead person one day after,

3 and I heard the shot, because I was only 200 metres away. And during all

4 the time, the police encircled the station and the surrounding area.

5 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Milosevic, you've had the hour which you are

6 entitled to. Do you have any more questions of this witness?

7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I do, but...

8 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

9 Q. You did not see a single killing personally?

10 A. I said I saw the police, I heard the shots, and I saw the person

11 dead, dead persons, not only in the station, but also on the fourth day,

12 early morning, when I boarded the train to leave Kosova from Prishtina to

13 Fushe Kosove, I saw two dead corpses in the vicinity of the railway

14 tracks.

15 Q. Do you know who had killed these people whose corpses were near

16 the railway station?

17 A. I don't know. If I knew, I would have mentioned them by name and

18 I would have taken them to the court.

19 Q. Do I understand you correctly if I say that throughout this time,

20 in 1998 and 1999, you did not know about a single victim of the KLA at

21 that time, or of the NATO bombing, as of the 24th of March onwards?

22 JUDGE MAY: He's dealt with these matters. We're not going over

23 them again.

24 Mr. Tapuskovic, have you any questions?

25 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. Yes, I

Page 4046

1 would have a number of questions.

2 Questioned by Mr. Tapuskovic:

3 Q. [Interpretation] Dr. Kabashi, you said that in 1997, 1998, and

4 1999, as a member of the KLA, you worked on the displacement of persons,

5 Albanians.

6 A. I mean the people who were displaced from the combat areas. Do I

7 need to repeat this? Finding accommodation for them.

8 Q. Mr. Kabashi, I have understood that. However, could you tell me:

9 What is the number of persons in respect of these few years that you know

10 about? What is the number of persons who were displaced, who moved to

11 other places, to the best of your knowledge? Does that mean that they

12 were moving away from the places where there were clashes between the KLA,

13 on the one hand, and the army and the police, on the other hand?

14 A. There were many people in Prishtina. There were many other people

15 in smaller towns. But at that time, in the first phase of the war, there

16 were more people displaced from the Drenica area, and these people came to

17 Prishtina and somebody had to look after them, and I was one of the people

18 with this duty.

19 Q. Was Drenica, all of Drenica, under KLA control for a while?

20 A. For a time it was, but the larger part of the population were

21 expelled beforehand by Serbian forces.

22 Q. Can you tell me about Drenica in relation to all of Kosovo and

23 Metohija: How big is it? Which proportion of the territory does it

24 encompass?

25 A. I can say Drenica, in relation to Kosova - and we won't use the

Page 4047

1 word "Metohija" - is 27 per cent of the territory of Kosova. That's its

2 geographical area. But it's a much smaller proportion of the population.

3 Q. Can you tell me, while you were in the KLA, that is to say, all

4 the way up until the 25th of March, were you - how should I put this? - in

5 civilian clothing? Did you carry out these duties in civilian clothing?

6 A. Yes, I was in civilian clothes.

7 Q. Were there other persons in the KLA who wore civilian clothing and

8 who carried out certain duties for the KLA?

9 A. Yes, there were.

10 Q. Did you carry weapons?

11 A. I didn't have permission to carry weapons.

12 Q. No, no, no, not when you're in town; when you're out in the field,

13 where there were skirmishes and when you were dealing with the displaced

14 persons, that's what I'm asking you about.

15 A. On trips, we did have weapons, but we dealt with these displaced

16 people in the towns. We weren't dealing with them in the hills.

17 Q. Thank you. In relation to your statement, you said that a bomb

18 was thrown at your house. You mentioned the damage incurred. Was anybody

19 hurt, though?

20 A. Fortunately, nobody died. My elder brother was injured in the

21 forehead and lost blood. But because there was no light at that time, we

22 were stretched out on the floor, and this saved us from the blast. And I

23 had also taken away my children beforehand, one day before.

24 Q. And the next night you spent in a cellar, 50 of you in a cellar

25 three by three. That's what it says here. Is that right?

Page 4048

1 A. We didn't spend the next night but that night, because the bomb

2 was thrown at 9.45. On the same night, not myself but the remainder of

3 the family, and the inhabitants of the neighbourhood - there were over 50

4 people, and they took shelter in a cellar which was three by three.

5 Q. Were any of these people injured or hurt?

6 A. As far as I remember, with the exception of my brother, the others

7 were not.

8 Q. And can you tell me about that night that you spent in the

9 cellar. Did it have anything to do with the bombing that started on the

10 previous day, the NATO bombing? Did that have anything to do with you

11 being in the cellar?

12 A. We didn't go to the cellar because of the NATO bombing, but

13 because my family, in the neighbourhood where we lived, were subjected to

14 that bomb I told you, and the shot at my window. During the NATO bombing,

15 we didn't go to any shelters. In fact, we didn't have any shelters.

16 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would kindly like

17 to draw your attention to page 4, paragraph 3 of the English version.

18 Q. Mr. Kabashi, you said that you had reached Vranjica [phoen], that

19 you spent some time in a place called Vranjevac [phoen]?

20 A. When I left my home in Fushe Kosove, I spent the first three

21 nights in the neighbourhood which was then called Dragodan, now Arberia,

22 whereas the two other nights, I spent these nights in the Vranjevc

23 neighbourhood which is now called Kodra e Trimave. These two

24 neighbourhoods are adjacent.

25 Q. Right. But here you said on that day, that's when you were in

Page 4049

1 Vranjica [phoen], and that night, there was fighting. Who was fighting

2 during that night in Vranjevac [phoen]?

3 A. I can't tell you for sure, but as far as I know from the media,

4 you had here a witness who testified that --

5 JUDGE MAY: Don't tell us about what any other witness said. If

6 you don't know, just say so.

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know who fought there.

8 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]

9 Q. Well, if there was fighting, it had to be taking place between

10 someone, because in the very next sentence, you say:

11 "Four persons were killed and I knew two out of them."

12 Did these persons have anything to do with this fighting that was

13 taking place between someone? Who was fighting? Because you said that

14 there was great panic, that there were a lot of gunshots and explosions.

15 Again you're talking about fighting. "Where there was fighting," you say.

16 And you also say that four persons were killed. So can you say who was

17 fighting?

18 JUDGE MAY: He just answered that. Now, Mr. Tapuskovic, let's try

19 and finish this witness, if we can, before this adjournment. He says he

20 doesn't know who was fighting.

21 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] That's fine. I need only two

22 more minutes. As an amicus curiae, I'm satisfied with this answer, but

23 please, let us now move on to page 6, paragraph 3 of the English version.

24 Q. Mr. Kabashi, in response to the questions put by the Honourable

25 Trial Chamber, you said that you had seen and heard the bombs that had

Page 4050

1 fallen -- you said what you said, right. How far away is Dragodan? How

2 far away is it from the place where the bombs were falling? If my

3 understanding was correct, it was seven kilometres away. Dragodan is

4 seven kilometres away from Pristina?

5 A. Not from Prishtina; from Fushe Kosove. If you mean the night of

6 the bombing of the State Security of Serbia building in Prishtina, the

7 distance from where I saw -- witnessed the event, as the crow flies, is

8 not more than 500 metres away.

9 Q. Time is very important, so let me cut things short. Mr. Kabashi,

10 all right. However, you did say that from Dragodan, you saw the bombing

11 of the court! House. How far away is Dragodan from the courthouse?

12 A. I explained it. As the crow flies, from the place where I was

13 sitting, it is some 500 metres away.

14 Q. Just one more thing. And then you finally say:

15 "In the neighbourhood of Dragodan, the blast broke windows."

16 Is that correct, the way you had put it here, that the blast broke

17 windows in the neighbourhood of Dragodan and that you realised that from

18 the house where you were?

19 A. I don't know about other houses, but in the house I was in, the

20 windows of the third floor were broken.

21 Q. From the explosion?

22 A. Yes, certainly.

23 Q. Was this of any significance in terms of your decision to leave

24 Kosovo as soon as possible?

25 A. [No interpretation]

Page 4051

1 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It had nothing to do with that. We

3 were evicted by the army from Dragodan.

4 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Ryneveld.

5 MR. RYNEVELD: Nothing arising. Thank you, Your Honours.

6 JUDGE MAY: Dr. Kabashi, that concludes your evidence. Thank you

7 for coming to the International Tribunal to give it. You are now free to

8 go.

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours. I felt it

10 my moral obligation to come here.

11 [The witness withdrew]

12 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Ryneveld, perhaps you can give us a list of the

13 witnesses for whom Rule 92 bis submissions have to be made. As far as I

14 can see, on your list of the 29th of April, it is every witness after

15 number 3, including 3; is that right?

16 MR. RYNEVELD: Yes. Well, 3, as I say, we found we have a

17 difficulty with the 92 bis'ing process, so number 4 would be our next

18 witness that we would propose to call this afternoon. 9 will not be a 92

19 bis.

20 JUDGE MAY: Yes.

21 MR. RYNEVELD: And -- yes, the rest of them, up to 18. So 3 to 18

22 but for 9, I believe, are the ones that we require rulings.

23 JUDGE MAY: Yes. So you formally make an application, then, for a

24 ruling on those matters.

25 MR. RYNEVELD: I do formally make such an application. I'm just

Page 4052

1 advised that number 16 may not be coming. We've just found out that 16 is

2 not available. So that's one for which I will withdraw the application at

3 this point.

4 We anticipate that, up until Friday, number 9 will be testifying

5 on Friday.


7 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you. Hopefully that assists Your Honour's

8 inquiry.

9 JUDGE MAY: Yes. We'll consider the matter over the adjournment.

10 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you.

11 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Wladimiroff.

12 MR. WLADIMIROFF: In response to this request, Your Honours, the

13 amici have no observation, if that might assist the Court. We have no

14 problem with the request.

15 JUDGE MAY: Thank you.

16 We'll adjourn now. 2.35.

17 --- Luncheon recess taken at 1.05 p.m.









Page 4053

1 --- On resuming at 2.36 p.m.

2 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Saxon or Mr. Ryneveld, whoever is going to deal

3 with this: We're looking at the witnesses 10 through to 18 on the list of

4 the 29th of April, and also 4 to 8. There is one witness for whom we

5 simply don't appear to have a statement, and that is number 13. Do you

6 have 13 on the list? It seems, as far as we can see, to cover a totally

7 different topic.

8 MR. RYNEVELD: Yes, Your Honour. Number 13 is likely -- excuse me

9 just one moment, if I may.

10 [Prosecution counsel confer]

11 MR. RYNEVELD: The reason you do not have number 13 is that the

12 process of 92 bis'ing, if I can use that word, has not yet been

13 accomplished, so we can't submit the statement to the Court in its final

14 form.

15 JUDGE MAY: But the other statements, you have submitted?

16 MR. RYNEVELD: That is correct, yes, along with a motion.

17 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Very well. Thank you.

18 Mr. Milosevic, is there anything you want to say about this?

19 Microphone.

20 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I said, I haven't got the statement

21 of that witness, and I should have. I've asked your secretary -- I asked

22 them this morning, and as far as I was able to understand, I will be

23 provided with one.

24 JUDGE MAY: We're not going to make a ruling on that one, but as

25 far as the others are concerned, on the list of the 29th of April, numbers

Page 4054

1 4 to 8, 10 to 12, 14, 15, 17, and 18 will be admitted.

2 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you, Your Honour.

3 JUDGE MAY: The witness, please.

4 MR. SAXON: Thank you, Your Honour. The Prosecution will call Mr.

5 Gani Haradinaj.

6 JUDGE MAY: There will be an announcement from the registry about

7 the exhibit numbers.

8 THE REGISTRAR: Correct, Your Honour. There's one clarification

9 that we need to make. The originally-marked Exhibit 116.1 will now be 117

10 ter, and the previous exhibit marked 117 will now be marked 118.

11 [The witness entered court]

12 JUDGE MAY: Let the witness make the declaration.

13 WITNESS: Gani Haradinaj

14 [Witness answered through interpreter]

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

16 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

17 JUDGE MAY: If you'd like to take a seat.

18 Yes, Mr. Saxon.

19 MR. SAXON: Thank you, Your Honour.

20 Examined by Mr. Saxon:

21 Q. Sir, is your name Gani Haradinaj?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Mr. Haradinaj, were you born on the 25th of May, 1956?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Were you born in the village of Stanovc i Eperm, in the

Page 4055

1 municipality of Vushtrri, in Kosovo?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. On the 28th and 29th of May, 1999, did you provide a statement to

4 representatives of the Office of the Prosecutor about the events that you

5 witnessed and experienced in Kosovo in 1999?

6 A. Yes, I did.

7 Q. On the 10th of October, 2001, did you provide an additional

8 statement to representatives of the Office of the Prosecutor about the

9 events that you witnessed and experienced in Kosovo in 1999?

10 A. Yes, that's correct.

11 Q. And on the 3rd of February of this year, 2002, in the city of

12 Pristina, Kosovo, were you provided with a copy of the statements that you

13 made in May of 1999 and October of 2001, and any relevant attachments, in

14 the presence of representatives of the Office of the Prosecutor and a

15 presiding officer appointed by the Registry of this Tribunal?

16 A. Yes, I was provided.

17 Q. And on that occasion, did you confirm that the copies of the

18 statements that were provided to you were true and correct?

19 A. Yes, I did.

20 MR. SAXON: Your Honours, at this time, I would offer those

21 statements into evidence pursuant to Rule 92 bis.

22 JUDGE MAY: Very well.

23 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be Prosecutor's Exhibit

24 121.

25 MR. SAXON: Your Honours, Gani Haradinaj is married and has four

Page 4056

1 children. He has lived in the village of Stanovc i Eperm in Vushtrri

2 municipality, in Kosovo, all of his life, and he works at the

3 thermoelectric power station in Obilic as a section manager.

4 In his statements, Mr. Haradinaj describes how in early April

5 1999, he, his family, and other villagers left their village after Serb

6 forces shelled the village and began to move through it. Mr. Haradinaj

7 tells how he and his family then moved from village to village, from

8 Breznica, to Dumnica e Eperme, to Ceceli, and finally to Studime e Eperme,

9 seeking shelter and protection from advancing Serb forces.

10 Mr. Haradinaj describes the formation of a convoy of thousands of

11 civilians in the village of Studime e Eperme, which started to move in the

12 direction of the town of Vushtrri in early May 1999.

13 The witness describes how this convoy was attacked by Serb forces

14 firing machine-guns and grenades, resulting in the deaths of dozens of

15 civilians. Afterwards, the convoy was directed by Serb forces to the

16 Vushtrri Agricultural Cooperative Farm, where the men were eventually

17 separated from the women and children. The men, including Mr. Haradinaj,

18 were taken to Smrekovnice Prison. Mr. Haradinaj describes the inhumane

19 conditions there and how he was beaten, interrogated, and forced to sign a

20 document saying that from 1998 until the 3rd of May, 1999, he had

21 participated in terrorist acts.

22 Mr. Haradinaj describes how, on the 23rd of May, 1999, he was

23 taken with other prisoners by bus to the village of Zur, several

24 kilometres from the border of Albania, and then forced to run to the

25 border and cross into Albania.

Page 4057

1 Thank you.

2 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Milosevic.

3 Cross-examined by Mr. Milosevic:

4 Q. [Interpretation] My microphone wasn't switched on. Is it true

5 with the Serbs from the village of Velika Reka and Grace, which are

6 located one kilometre to the east and west of your own village, that you

7 lived peacefully with them, without any conflicts, right up until the

8 spring of 1999? Yes or no.

9 A. Yes. We each minded his own affairs. We didn't have any

10 cooperation per se, but neither did we have any problems.

11 Q. So the problems began at the same time that the war began?

12 A. The problems began earlier. They weren't so acute, I would say.

13 With the beginning of the NATO airstrike, the Serbs started their problems

14 to inflict the conflicts [as interpreted].

15 Q. So with the start of the bombing, the Serbs started with problems.

16 Now, do you consider the bombing also to be a problem?

17 A. No, not at all. Bombing was something we were looking forward to

18 because we considered it the only salvation for the Albania people.

19 Q. As a technician, you were employed in the -- in Obilic as section

20 manager, and you worked right up until the 24th of March; is that correct?

21 A. Can you please repeat the question?

22 Q. What I said was: You worked as a technician in the thermoelectric

23 powerplant at Obilic, as section manager, and that you worked there right

24 up until the 24th of March, 1999. Is that correct?

25 A. I worked as a shift manager and not as a technician -- as a

Page 4058

1 supervisor, actually. The fact is that I worked there until the NATO

2 airstrikes began, and I went home. Then I had to join my family. I

3 didn't find my family. My family was driven away by the Serb forces, who

4 threw grenades at my house and at the entire village, and the entire

5 population was obliged to flee from there in the direction of Breznice.

6 Q. So as I understand it, the answer to my question is that you

7 worked, but you were shift leader, up until the 24th of March, that is to

8 say, until the war began. You occupied your work post at the

9 thermoelectric power station of Obilic. While you were at your work post,

10 did you have any problems because you were an Albanian?

11 A. Yes, we did. All the Albanians who were in key positions were

12 dismissed from those positions and replaced by the Serbs. I was one of

13 them.

14 Q. How many Albanians worked in the Obilic thermoelectric power

15 plant?

16 A. I can't give you an exact figure. It's not in my power to do

17 that. But I know that Albanians were made to work only in the most

18 difficult positions, and the responsible ones were given to the Serbs.

19 Q. Tell us roughly how many Albanians were employed in the Obilic

20 power station.

21 A. I can't give you an exact figure.

22 Q. Well, what was the total number of employed workers in the company

23 you worked for? I assume you know that.

24 A. I was not working in the administration; I was working in the

25 production units.

Page 4059

1 Q. What you're saying is you don't know how many people were employed

2 in your company; is that it?

3 A. I think I was clear in my reply. It's not in my power to give you

4 the figure.

5 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Haradinaj --

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] And I don't even know it.

7 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Haradinaj, how long did you work with the

8 company?

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I worked there from 1975 onwards.

10 JUDGE ROBINSON: It seems to me that you really ought to have even

11 a rough idea as to the number of employees in the company. Can you help

12 us on that?

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I would willingly wish

14 to help you, but, frankly speaking, I don't know because it was not part

15 of my duties. I apologise for not giving you an exact figure. I don't

16 want to testify to something which I don't know.

17 JUDGE ROBINSON: We don't want an exact figure; just a rough

18 estimate.

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In my sector, we were roughly 32 or

20 33. We were dealing with the chemical composition of the water.

21 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic, you can continue.

22 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

23 Q. Thirty-three. Were they all Albanians?

24 A. No, they were not all Albanians.

25 Q. How many of them would you say were? Half, two-thirds? Roughly,

Page 4060

1 at least in your sector. Give us a rough estimate. It was a small

2 sector, numbering 33, roughly.

3 A. There were two Romas and six Serbs. The others were all

4 Albanians.

5 Q. A moment ago you said that with the start of the NATO bombing, you

6 left your post to see to your family. So you said a moment ago, in

7 response to one of the questions asked, that when the bombing started, you

8 left your work post to go and tend to your family, take care of your

9 family. And straight after that, you said that you left because the Serbs

10 had let go the managers, one of whom you were. Now, which is right: Did

11 you leave your work post in order to take care of your family or did you

12 leave your work post because the Serbs dismissed you?

13 A. I think your question was rather long. It will be kilometres

14 long. Please make it shorter and ask it slowly, and one after another.

15 JUDGE MAY: Let us stop this fencing.

16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I continue?

17 JUDGE MAY: Just a moment. No. Let's try and get a short answer

18 to this matter.

19 When the bombing started, you left your post; is that right? Just

20 yes or no.

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] When the bombing started, with

22 grenades from Velika Reka, and the family went to the mountains, only then

23 I left my post, but it was not because of the NATO airstrike, Your

24 Honours.

25 JUDGE MAY: Very well. Why was it that you left?

Page 4061

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I had to join my family.

2 JUDGE MAY: Nobody is criticising you at all. You must understand

3 that. We just want to know what the facts were.

4 Yes, Mr. Milosevic.

5 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

6 Q. So you left your work post because of your family and not because

7 the Serbs had dismissed you; is that right or not?

8 JUDGE MAY: I don't know where this confusion comes in.

9 Was there any question of your leaving your post because the Serbs

10 had dismissed you, at any time?

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. I left my post because, as I

12 said, I wanted to join my family after the Serbs had shelled the village,

13 shot at the houses, at other houses, and driven the population out of it.

14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May we continue?

15 JUDGE MAY: Yes.

16 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

17 Q. You claim, as you say, that the Serbs, in the first days of April,

18 without any evident reason or intimation, started bombing your village?

19 Yes or no. Just a short answer.

20 A. Yes; without any reason, they shelled the village first, then the

21 infantry troops entered, they looted and raided. It was in the early days

22 of April.

23 Q. So the beginning of April, you say that the Serb forces, for no

24 reason at all, shelled the village. Now, if that was at the beginning of

25 April, as you yourself say, why then did you have to leave your work post

Page 4062

1 a week before, on the 24th of March, or let's say the next day, 25th of

2 March, to take care of your family?

3 A. In the first days of April, we went to the village of Breznice and

4 when we -- we left Breznice and then it was impossible to leave children

5 in the mountains, and so I left my work.

6 Q. Yes, but I'm asking you about the time, about the dates that

7 follow one another. You say that you left your work post on the 24th of

8 March, when the bombing started.

9 JUDGE MAY: Where does it say that? I do not recollect him saying

10 that.

11 When did you --

12 Just let's ask the witness.

13 When was it that you left your work?

14 Just a moment.

15 When was it that you left your work?

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I left my -- I left my work sometime

17 round about 12th of April.

18 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

19 Q. You claim that you left work on the 12th of April. That is to say

20 that until the 12th of April, you worked at the Obilic hydroelectric power

21 plant?

22 A. I worked at a thermoelectric plant, not a hydroelectric plant.

23 Q. I didn't say hydro. I said "thermal." I mean, I said the

24 electric plant.

25 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Let's move on.

Page 4063

1 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

2 Q. I asked you a question. Until the 12th of April, you worked at

3 the Obilic power station?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. And do you remember that a little while ago you said, in response

6 to my question, that you left your work post when the bombing started on

7 the 24th of March?

8 JUDGE MAY: I don't recollect it. I think this is simply going to

9 confuse the witness. Just let him tell his story.

10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] That's precisely the way I am

11 putting questions in relation to his story, and I'm trying to follow what

12 he's been saying. You can look at the transcript.

13 JUDGE MAY: Yes. So that we get it straight: You left your work

14 on the 12th of February because your village had been attacked; is that

15 right?

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's true, Your Honour. However,

17 one explanation: Before I left my work, my family and children had gone

18 further away. They had left the place where we lived. And later, there

19 was no way I could get to work, because this goes in phases, because we

20 moved from various places in various phases.

21 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

22 Q. In the transcript, in the upper third, it says -- I asked you:

23 "On the 12th of April, you were working at the Obilic power station?" And

24 the answer is, "Yes." And now the answer is that he left work in

25 February. So can we finally come to the date when you left your work?

Page 4064

1 A. It doesn't say anywhere in my statement that I left my job in 12th

2 of February.

3 JUDGE MAY: There is a mistake in the transcript. It's been

4 translated as February. Yes.

5 Were you working until the 12th of April?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.

7 JUDGE MAY: Thank you.

8 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation] All right. Let us proceed now.

9 Q. Do you live in Gornja Stanovc [phoen] now as well?

10 A. Yes, in Stanovc i Eperm [phoen].

11 Q. For how long was your village shelled?

12 A. Several times, every now and then.

13 Q. And during that, what you claimed happened, were there any

14 casualties?

15 A. There were casualties.

16 Q. And the population went into the woods?

17 A. They all left, and only a few old people were left, and this old

18 man, Shaban Manxhiqi [phoen], was taken away and killed.

19 Q. Who took this old man away and killed him?

20 A. No doubt the Serbs.

21 Q. Did you see that? Did you see the Serbs take him away?

22 A. He was merely found dead.

23 Q. And on the basis of what are you saying, then, that the Serbs

24 killed him?

25 A. I can say in full responsibility that the Albanians did not kill

Page 4065

1 Albanians, but he was killed by your hand.

2 Q. On the basis of what you have been claiming, that Albanians did

3 not kill Albanians, you are saying that he was not killed by Albanians, or

4 rather, that he was killed by Serbs; right?

5 A. In that I didn't see it, I believe that this is the case, and

6 indeed it is.

7 Q. Apart from this old man who was killed, were there any other

8 casualties in your village?

9 A. While fleeing from Breznice to Dumnice on the 26th, there were

10 also five casualties then. One of them was Ibrahim Prronaj, 55 years old,

11 and his son, aged 20, and another one aged 20 whose name I don't remember,

12 and a pregnant woman and another girl. They were buried at Dumnice. I

13 saw these casualties myself. They were killed by mortar fire.

14 Q. On the 26th of which month were you fleeing? You said the 26th.

15 A. Of April. April.

16 Q. April. And this mortar fire that killed them, where was it coming

17 from? Who was firing?

18 A. According to eyewitnesses, the mortar fire came from Lumi e Madh,

19 the village formerly known as Velika Reka, and it was aimed directly at

20 the civilian population.

21 Q. You are saying according to what eyewitnesses said, but you didn't

22 see it with your own eyes.

23 A. We only saw the casualties. It is not possible to see where the

24 fire came from because Dumnice and Velika Reka are three to four

25 kilometres apart as the crow flies, but I saw fragments of the shell.

Page 4066

1 Q. And do you know anything precisely about these Obilic plants and

2 the KLA attacks precisely by mortar? Are you aware of these events?

3 A. Would you put the question again? It's not clear to me.

4 Q. Are you aware of KLA attacks against Obilic, that is to say, the

5 company that you worked for, and also the area beyond that?

6 A. There were no KLA attacks anywhere near my workplace.

7 Q. And do you know about attacks from the neighbouring village that

8 came from the KLA? Just say yes or no. I'm not asking you for

9 descriptions.

10 A. I can't describe it without going into long details.

11 Q. My question was: Are you aware of KLA attacks coming from the

12 nearby village, the villages in the neighbouring area?

13 A. What area are you talking about?

14 Q. Precisely the area where your village is and where your company

15 is. I'm talking about the area you come from.

16 A. My village and my workplace are ten kilometres apart from one

17 another, and so I can't really provide the answer you require.

18 Q. Well, in that area, ten kilometres long, between your village and

19 the place where you worked, are you aware of any KLA attacks there?

20 A. On the road that I travelled from Stanofc to the highway, through

21 Shkabaj, formerly known as Orloviqi, to Obiliq, there were no

22 confrontations between the KLA and your forces anywhere along that route.

23 Q. Do you know of any clashes in that area between the KLA and our

24 forces, as you had put it? Yes or no.

25 A. There were no KLA forces in my village. There were no KLA forces

Page 4067

1 in my village.

2 Q. I asked you whether you knew of any attacks in that area of yours,

3 attacks that were launched by the KLA against our forces, and the other

4 way around.

5 A. I didn't see any, but according to the press and the television,

6 there were attacks.

7 Q. But you didn't see them. You described the following: Like the

8 other inhabitants of the village, you started leaving Gornja Stanofc

9 [phoen] when you saw Serbs dressed in camouflage uniforms entering your

10 village. Is that right?

11 A. Yes, I said this, but I should explain that there was no KLA

12 there, and the residents fled, and it was the Serbian forces that drove

13 away the population and not the KLA. That's what it says in my statement.

14 Q. All right. I understand what you have been asserting. How many

15 houses are there in your village?

16 A. About 300.

17 Q. And how many houses were damaged during the shelling that you've

18 been referring to?

19 A. According to statistics, about 70 per cent of the houses in

20 Stanofc were burnt and shelled.

21 Q. How far away is the village of Breznica from your village?

22 A. Between the one end of Stanofc and the beginning of Breznice,

23 there are about four to five kilometres.

24 Q. So from the end of your village to the beginning, there is four or

25 five kilometres, and you say that, from Breznica, you were watching the

Page 4068

1 Serbs looting or torching houses in Gornja Stanofc [phoen]; isn't that

2 right?

3 A. I think it's written well in my statement, because you can see one

4 from the other through binoculars.

5 Q. All right. With the use of binoculars, as you say, four or five

6 kilometres away. It can certainly be established on a map how far this

7 is, actually. But you say that you saw all of it from there? You saw the

8 Serbs entering the houses, looting them, burning them, et cetera; is that

9 right?

10 A. Yes. They looted and then they set the houses on fire.

11 Q. Could you describe that, how the Serbs looted the houses?

12 A. Quite clearly. They came with trucks, and your army guarded them

13 and civilians went in and took what they wanted, and then the houses were

14 set on fire.

15 Q. Who was looting the houses: Civilians or the military?

16 A. In that they were together, they did it together.

17 Q. And you claim that from a five-kilometre distance, you saw

18 civilians entering houses --

19 JUDGE MAY: He said that. He said that through binoculars he saw

20 it.

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] And that's true, Your Honour.

22 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

23 Q. And is it true that two days upon your arrival in Brenica [phoen]

24 or Breznica - I can't get the pronunciation of the village right - that

25 the shelling of that village started?

Page 4069

1 A. This question is not clear to me.

2 Q. You left your village and went to which village?

3 A. To the village of Breznice.

4 Q. And when was this village attacked?

5 A. Two days after we left Stanofc, we left again and then started

6 going up the hills.

7 Q. And why did you go away after two days?

8 A. Because Breznice too started to be shelled, from the lower part of

9 the village. The houses started to be set on fire. The same thing

10 happened as in Stanofc.

11 Q. Did you see these forces that were shelling Breznica?

12 A. I didn't see the forces, but I saw -- I heard the mortars. I saw

13 the shells dropping in the village.

14 Q. But you claim, as far as I could see in your statement, that they

15 shelled the village with hand-held mortars is that right, or hand-held

16 launchers?

17 A. The shells I saw came from the launchers, from the mortars.

18 Q. Hand-held. Do you know at which distance targets can be engaged

19 from a hand-held launcher?

20 A. I don't know. Your army knows, you criminal.

21 JUDGE MAY: Don't abuse the accused.

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I apologise, Your Honour.

23 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

24 Q. Can you answer the question?

25 JUDGE MAY: If you don't know, just say so.

Page 4070

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know.

2 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

3 Q. But you didn't see the launchers firing, except that you saw the

4 shells fired from them; is that right?

5 A. I am not clear. Can you please repeat it?

6 Q. Well, I'll try to rephrase it. Since you are a layman, since you

7 are not knowledgeable in such matters, how come you know that they used

8 hand-held launchers?

9 A. Because I can tell the shells coming from the mortars.

10 Q. All right. And near Breznica, near the village itself, at that

11 time were there any members of the KLA?

12 A. They were on the move, but they hadn't taken up any positions.

13 Q. Did you see them in Breznica?

14 A. Whom? Whom do you mean did I see?

15 Q. Members of the KLA. You say that they were on the move but they

16 hadn't taken up any positions. Did you see them on the move in Breznica?

17 A. Yes, I did.

18 Q. Now, were they fleeing together with you from Breznica?

19 A. No. They were only escorting the population and returned to their

20 position in Dumnice or elsewhere where they were.

21 Q. And how far is it from Dubnica to Breznica?

22 A. I don't know.

23 Q. Roughly. You're describing the events. You went from Breznica

24 to Dubnica. You just mentioned Dubnica. So it's probably nearby. So

25 how far, roughly speaking, is it from Breznica to Dubnica?

Page 4071

1 A. Roughly three, four kilometres.

2 Q. Three or four kilometres. And you say that around the village of

3 Dubnica, you came across the defence lines of the KLA. That's what you

4 claim.

5 A. I'm not clear about the question.

6 Q. In your statement, you claim that it was around the village of

7 Dubnica that you came across, as you say, you came across the defence

8 lines of the KLA. Is that right or is it not?

9 A. After we left Breznice village, we headed towards Dumnice, and

10 then it was when the KLA protected us.

11 Q. And did you come across the defence lines of the KLA in Dubnica,

12 as you claim?

13 A. There were forces of the KLA, yes.

14 Q. So what you have said, you saw the KLA moving in Breznica, and

15 three kilometres further off, in Dubnica, as you say, were the defence

16 positions, as you call them, of the KLA. That means that in that whole

17 area, Breznica-Dubnica, was where the KLA moved around. Is that right or

18 not?

19 A. It is a very long sentence. I don't know why your sentences are

20 kilometres long.

21 JUDGE MAY: Look, don't argue with him.

22 He has a point, Mr. Milosevic. The questions are too long. I

23 think the question seems to be: Were the KLA in Breznica and Dubnica?

24 And I think your answer is: Yes, there were KLA there. Is that right?

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that's right, Your Honour.

Page 4072

1 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Now, can we move on.

2 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

3 Q. Well, in Gornja Dubnica on that day, how many members of the KLA

4 were there there?

5 A. I don't know the figure.

6 Q. All right. Do you remember whether the members of the KLA were

7 fleeing, or were they opening fire on the members of our forces?

8 A. There wasn't any clashes among the KLA and your forces. Only the

9 Serb forces fired at the people, at the civilian population, with mortars.

10 Q. The KLA was just fleeing; it wasn't doing any firing. Right?

11 A. I think I was clear. There wasn't any confrontations between the

12 KLA and the Serb forces.

13 Q. And what was the KLA doing? You saw them on the move in Breznica,

14 you came across their lines in Dubnica, three kilometres later. That's

15 right, isn't it?

16 A. You draw such a complicated picture of the situation that I can't

17 tell. I told you: The KLA was positioned in Dumnice village, and they

18 just kept a vigil on the population.

19 Q. You're claiming that the KLA, from those positions, didn't do any

20 firing?

21 JUDGE MAY: That's what he said.

22 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation] Excellent. Let's move on.

23 Q. Was there any shelling of Gornja Dubnica, Upper Dubnica? Where

24 the KLA positions were, that's what I mean.

25 A. From where, and which forces do you think did the shelling?

Page 4073

1 Q. You say that in Dubnica there were KLA units present. Now, did

2 our forces attack those positions of theirs?

3 A. They did not attack the KLA positions; they attacked the

4 population.

5 Q. All right. Then the KLA had its positions in Dubnica. That's

6 where the population was too, the inhabitants. The army or the police or

7 the army and the police did not attack the KLA but they attacked the

8 inhabitants; is that what you're claiming?

9 A. Yes, they attacked only the population, because they didn't dare

10 attack the KLA. But they fired at the defenceless population.

11 Q. And they avoided shooting at the KLA, did they?

12 A. Not they avoided it; their purpose was to inflict damage more on

13 the population.

14 Q. All right. And where were the civilians rallied in Dubnica?

15 Where did they gather? At what place?

16 A. Somewhere in the middle of the village or in houses where they

17 could find shelter, or on top of the tractors. When the Serb forces saw

18 them, then they started to fire with mortars.

19 Q. All right. Now, when the forces attacked the civilians, as you

20 claim, where were the KLA positions at that time? Where was the KLA at

21 that point in time?

22 A. The Serb forces were on a lower position, the KLA in the middle,

23 the population on a higher ground, and the Serb forces used mortars

24 against the civilian population.

25 Q. Have I understood this correctly: The KLA was in between the

Page 4074

1 civilians and our own forces? Is that right?

2 A. Yes, as far as I know.

3 Q. How come, then, if they were in between the civilians and our

4 forces, that they did not protect the civilians?

5 A. It is easy to guess, because it is known what machinery you had

6 and what weapons the KLA had.

7 Q. That means that in the valley, there were our forces, and then

8 next came the KLA, and behind the KLA were the civilians; and our forces

9 weren't shooting at the KLA, they were shooting at the civilians, skipping

10 over the KLA. Is that what you're saying?

11 A. Yes. This is what I'm saying. But I can explain. There wasn't

12 any close-range fighting. They shelled only from a distance, with

13 mortars.

14 Q. But not at the KLA, but the civilians?

15 JUDGE MAY: He said that.

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's how it is, Your Honour.

17 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation] All right. All right.

18 Q. Now, the ones you mentioned, Ibrahim, Afrim, and Beslim, and the

19 others, were they members of the KLA?

20 A. Can you mention the names again, because they came very fast.

21 Excuse me.

22 Q. Ibrahim, Afrim, Beslim.

23 A. I can swear on my heart that they were not members of the KLA, but

24 they were in the convoy with me. Ibrahim was 65 years old. Ibrahim

25 Prronaj.

Page 4075

1 Q. Prronaj, yes. And how far is the village of Gornja Dubnica from

2 Cecilija?

3 A. It's a distance. I don't know exactly how far.

4 Q. All right. Not to lose time establishing the approximate

5 distance: Is it true that the KLA headquarters were in that village? Yes

6 or no. Just say yes or no, and we can cut down on the time.

7 A. I don't know whether you're asking about the base of the KLA in

8 Ceceli or in Dumnice.

9 Q. I'm asking about Cecelija. Is that where the KLA had its

10 headquarters? Yes or no.

11 A. The KLA had its headquarters at Ceceli.

12 Q. And who was the commander of that headquarters?

13 A. I don't know his name, but I know that he was a head teacher at a

14 school beforehand.

15 Q. And how many KLA members were there at the time?

16 A. I don't know the exact figure.

17 Q. As far as I was able to understand, you spent five days in

18 Cecelija; is that right? Yes or no.

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Now, in the course of those five days, was there any fighting

21 going on between the KLA and our forces? Yes or no.

22 A. There were no clashes during those five days.

23 Q. No clashes. Why, then, did the KLA withdraw from the village and

24 decided to withdraw its forces from the area, from the region?

25 A. You're asking me? During the five days when we were there, there

Page 4076

1 were no clashes, but after those five days, then the fighting began, as

2 you say.

3 Q. Between whom?

4 A. This question is so awkward. I don't know exactly what you mean.

5 Q. You say that the fighting began. Between whom? The fighting

6 between whom?

7 A. As far as I know, I didn't say that combat began; I said there

8 were no confrontations for five days.

9 Q. And then you said:

10 "And five days later, the fighting began." "After those five

11 days, then the fighting began."

12 That's what you said a moment ago.

13 A. I didn't say that combat began, but that after five days we heard

14 that -- we heard that there had been fighting throughout the area. So

15 please do not hurry me. Now ask whatever you like.

16 Q. Well, I'm just asking you. So throughout that time, you were --

17 you spent your time together with the KLA; right?

18 A. Spent most of the time with civilians, with unarmed civilians.

19 The KLA was positioned lower down. It wasn't so close to us.

20 Q. All right. But I'm asking you now. Let me ask you in a different

21 way. When they decided to withdraw, that is to say, when the KLA decided

22 to withdraw, you decided to leave the region and go from Gornja Studime

23 [phoen] in the direction of Donja Studime [phoen]; is that right?

24 A. You are complicating this. Donja e Eperm [phoen]? I don't know

25 what you mean.

Page 4077

1 JUDGE MAY: You went to another village; is that right?

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, let him mention the

3 names of the villages clearly. I don't understand which village he means.

4 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Milosevic, your time now is coming up, but you can

5 ask two more questions if you want.

6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, I have many more questions,

7 but as you can hear, the witness doesn't seem to understand a single

8 question. He is receiving interpretation in the Albanian language.

9 JUDGE MAY: Do you want to ask another two questions?

10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I have 32 more questions, or more.

11 [Trial Chamber confers]

12 JUDGE MAY: The Bench will give you ten minutes more.

13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right.

14 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

15 Q. Now, what direction did the KLA leave in?

16 A. The KLA withdrew into the hills, for tactical reasons, in order to

17 save the population.

18 Q. Did they leave the population or did they carry on with the

19 population?

20 A. No. The KLA, in order to prevent worse from happening, left the

21 population after the population had decided to go downhill, down to the

22 village of Studime and to continue in the direction of Vushtrri.

23 Q. You said that two kilometres after a certain place on the way to

24 Vucitrn, that you came across some Serb policemen. Do you remember having

25 said that, that part of your testimony?

Page 4078

1 A. If possible, could I have the question again?

2 Q. On the way towards Vucitrn, you came across some Serb policemen.

3 That's what you say in your statement. Moving along in that group that

4 was heading towards Vucitrn.

5 A. Serbian forces came down from Shala and shelled us, and we fled to

6 Studime e Eperme. We rested for a moment and formed a convoy and decided

7 to go in the direction of Vushtrri. At Studime --

8 Q. I am skipping over the questions because my time has been

9 restricted. Now, I'm asking you about the event when you came across some

10 policemen, and you say that they did not stop you but they just directed

11 you towards your road to Vucitrn. Do you remember that?

12 A. This question is very mixed up and unclear. Slowly, please. One

13 by one, I will explain these things.

14 JUDGE MAY: Don't argue.

15 Mr. Milosevic, it will help us: Which part of the statement are

16 you referring to?

17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I don't have the statement in front

18 of me, but there is a portion of his statement where he says, "We came

19 across Serb policemen." They did not stop them but directed them towards

20 Vucitrn and the factory farm there, in that direction.

21 JUDGE MAY: Very well. That's clear enough.

22 Did a group of Serb policemen direct you towards the factory farm?

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. Just before going

24 out onto the main Mitrovica-Prishtina road, these policemen pointed us

25 towards the agricultural cooperative, where they gathered us and left us

Page 4079

1 in the open air all night.

2 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

3 Q. You claim that that agricultural cooperative was guarded by

4 civilian policemen; is that right?

5 A. Can I have the question again, please?

6 Q. You said that the agricultural cooperative was guarded by the

7 civilian police force.

8 A. No, I didn't say that in my statement. I said that the police

9 were inside and the army joined them, so there were police and military

10 together, and civilians too. I didn't say that in my statement.

11 Q. Well, what were the civilians doing?

12 A. Which civilians do you mean?

13 Q. Those civilians that you just mentioned, that you said there were

14 police and military together, and civilians too. Those civilians.

15 A. They only moved back and forth, and at that moment, they weren't

16 doing anything.

17 Q. And how much time did you spend exactly in the prison in

18 Smrekovnice?

19 A. Excuse me. Yes, clear. I was in the Smrekovnice Prison from the

20 3rd of May to the 23rd of May.

21 Q. So you spent 20 days there. Now, is it true that one of the

22 guards was an Albanian by the name of Agron?

23 A. Yes. There was a prison warden called Agron.

24 Q. Was he an Albanian?

25 A. I didn't know him. I only knew him as Agron.

Page 4080

1 Q. Well, was he an Albanian? Even if you didn't know him, you met

2 him.

3 A. According to his name, he should be an Albanian.

4 Q. So an Albanian was guarding you while you were in prison.

5 JUDGE MAY: He said that the guard was called Agron.

6 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation] All right.

7 Q. You claim that in the prison in Smrekovnice, you answered the

8 investigator that you had no knowledge about the KLA and its members. Is

9 that true?

10 A. Excuse me, Your Honour. The accused is asking such long questions

11 that I can't distinguish one sentence from another. Please give me one

12 plain sentence to answer.

13 JUDGE MAY: Did you tell the interrogator in the prison that you

14 had no knowledge about the KLA and its members?

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. I said in prison that I wasn't

16 a member of the KLA but I had helped them.

17 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

18 Q. You told him that you had given them money. Is that right or not?

19 A. I said that I had helped them, and it is indeed true that, within

20 my own resources, I helped them of my own free will, because the KLA was

21 -- it was the KLA that fought for the freedom of Kosova, with the help of

22 NATO and the United States.

23 Q. That means that they didn't ask you for money; you gave them money

24 of your own free will.

25 A. Of my own free will, I wanted to help the army of the people.

Page 4081

1 This was an army that defended people's homes, defended the people. It

2 came from out of the people themselves. So I helped them out of my own

3 free will, without any kind of coercion. It was my own free will. I say

4 it again.

5 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Milosevic, you've had your ten minutes.

6 Mr. Tapuskovic, have you any questions of the witness?

7 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I do have some

8 questions because Mr. Slobodan Milosevic did not touch upon the second

9 statement at all, and I do not wish to abuse the time, of course, but

10 could you just tell me how much time I have at my disposal, because this

11 is a very important statement for the issues you're going to deal with.

12 Some very important things have been left out which are contained in that

13 second statement.

14 JUDGE MAY: Let's get on with it now and finish it this evening.

15 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I'll do my best,

16 but I have to go back for a moment, actually, to the first statement.

17 Questioned by Mr. Tapuskovic:

18 Q. Mr. Gani -- I'm going to refer to you by your first name. It's

19 easier. I hope you don't mind if I refer to you by your first name. But

20 could we first clarify this fact, that is to say, when did you stop

21 working at your work post where you were employed? In your first

22 statement, dated the 28th and 29th of May, 1999, in the first sentence of

23 that statement, you said that you worked as a technician until the 24th of

24 March, 1999:

25 "I was employed at the hydroelectric power station as section

Page 4082

1 manager."

2 Today you said something else, something different. Now, could

3 you tell me, which is correct: What you said today or what you said then?

4 A. We worked until 12 April. As of 24th of March -- allow me to give

5 you an explanation. With the beginning of the NATO bombing on the 24th of

6 March, our timetable changed. I went to go to work every three or four

7 days. That's why I said I stayed in my workplace until the 12th of April.

8 Q. All right. Thank you. Further on, in paragraph 3, you said that

9 on the 24th of March, you heard on television that NATO had started to

10 bomb. Is that right?

11 A. Yes, that's right.

12 Q. And then, during the following days, you heard several explosions

13 coming from the direction of Pristina, and you say, "... which I presumed

14 were NATO attacks." Is that right?

15 A. I can explain that. On the 24th of March, I heard the NATO bombs,

16 but I still went to work. This is the reality.

17 Q. Was that of any significance, that you decided, together with your

18 family, to leave the place where these bombs were falling, or was this not

19 significant?

20 MR. SAXON: Objection. Your Honour --

21 JUDGE MAY: Just a moment. Just a moment.

22 Yes.

23 MR. SAXON: Your Honour, the witness described how he heard bombs

24 falling from the direction of Pristina. At no time --

25 THE INTERPRETER: Counsel, please speak into the microphone.

Page 4083

1 MR. SAXON: The witness described how he heard the sound of bombs

2 falling from the direction of the city of Pristina. At no time -- and we

3 are referring here to NATO bombs, the NATO bombardment. I think it needs

4 to be clarified whether Mr. Tapuskovic is referring in his last question

5 to NATO bombs or bombs or shells fired by the Serb forces. Thank you.

6 JUDGE MAY: Perhaps you could put the question again so we can

7 understand it.

8 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] There's no need for me to

9 rephrase it, Your Honours, because it says here --

10 JUDGE MAY: I have asked you to rephrase it, so kindly do so.

11 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Of course I will, Your Honour,

12 but this is verbatim what his statement says:

13 "During the days that followed --" this is what he said. I have

14 no reason to interpret it:

15 "During the days that followed, I heard several explosions coming

16 from the direction of Pristina, 15 kilometres away, which I presumed were

17 NATO attacks."

18 That is literally what he said.

19 Q. And now, was this of significance?

20 JUDGE MAY: What is the question?

21 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] My question is whether -- the

22 fact that he presumed that he heard NATO bombing, whether that affected

23 his decision to leave together with his family so that he would seek

24 shelter from the place where these bombs were falling. That's my

25 question.

Page 4084


2 Can you answer that?

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I want to be brief. Every Albanian

4 I think was looking forward to NATO bombing, because he hoped and they

5 hoped that it would bring their freedom. I don't know where the mistake

6 is, but the fact is that --

7 JUDGE MAY: There is no mistake. It's been suggested because you

8 heard the explosions, you were fleeing from the explosions. If the answer

9 is no, just say no.

10 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, it may appear so, but I

12 did not leave because of NATO bombing but because of the shelling by the

13 Serb forces. We could tell between the NATO bombing and the shelling.

14 These are two different things. I want to make it clear that we did not

15 go away because of NATO bombing.

16 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]

17 Q. Mr. Gani, please, I'm just asking you to give me answers that are

18 as brief as possible, bearing in mind the time involved. Now we have this

19 other statement of yours given on the 10th of October, 2001. On page 2 of

20 that statement, the English version also page 2, paragraph 2, you said

21 here:

22 "Altogether I think that in the village of Cecelia, there were

23 about 2.000 people who had sought shelter there."

24 Is that right?

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, am I allowed to look at

Page 4085

1 the statement? Because I am not clear.

2 [Trial Chamber confers]

3 JUDGE MAY: This is obviously going to go on. Would you have a

4 copy of the statement for the witness so he can look at it? Would you get

5 the passage out. We'll adjourn for ten minutes, we'll have a break for

6 the interpreters, and then we'll go on until you finish, Mr. Tapuskovic.

7 Yes, ten minutes.

8 --- Break taken at 4.08 p.m.

9 --- On resuming at 4.21 p.m.

10 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Has the witness got the statement?

11 MR. SAXON: I believe he does, Your Honour.

12 JUDGE MAY: What language has he got it in?

13 MR. SAXON: He's got it in Albanian, Your Honour.

14 JUDGE MAY: Have you found the passage?

15 MR. SAXON: We have, Your Honour, and it's been highlighted in

16 yellow.

17 JUDGE MAY: And in the English, where is it?

18 MR. SAXON: In the English, it is on page 2 of the statement that

19 is dated 10 October 2001. Close to the bottom of the page, beginning with

20 the words, "Altogether..."

21 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Thank you.

22 Now, Mr. Tapuskovic, we can go on until 5.00, so would you kindly

23 bring your cross-examination to an end by then.

24 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I shall certainly

25 finish much earlier, and I shall certainly be putting very direct

Page 4086

1 questions, so I'm sure to finish before that.

2 Q. So, Mr. Gani, I asked you a while ago, because that's what it says

3 in your statement. It says here, page 2, paragraph 2 - I don't know where

4 it is in your version - but in Cecelia, there were about 7.000 people. Is

5 that right, civilians? That's what it says here.

6 A. Yes. Approximate number of civilians who stayed in Cecelia for

7 about five days. This is what this figure is about.

8 Q. And when you came to Gornja Studime [phoen] right from Cecelija,

9 together with the people who were there, as you had put it in your first

10 statement, not to go back to that, there were a total of 10.000 to 15.000

11 people there. Is that right?

12 A. Yes, that's right, but I want to give an explanation here too,

13 because other people joined the column of people, so the number grew

14 constantly.

15 Q. I understand. These are mainly people who came, as you put it in

16 the first statement, they came from various places. I don't have to go

17 into all of that. Drenica, et cetera, et cetera. Just look at page 1 and

18 you'll see all the places that you mentioned. They came from different

19 places.

20 A. Here it says about 7.000 people who were refugees in Ceceli. But

21 when the column of people started to move downwards, then other people

22 joined it, people who were spread in other villages, in Studime e Eperme,

23 the mountains. So spontaneously the number of the people in the column

24 grew, as I said.

25 Q. All right. Let's not dwell on that too long. Again on this same

Page 4087

1 page, in paragraph 3 - so we're skipping one paragraph - you said when you

2 were in Cecelia, that the KLA told you that you would stay there only

3 temporarily. Is that right?

4 A. Yes, that is right.

5 Q. So you were waiting. You were waiting for them to tell you when

6 you're supposed to leave; is that right?

7 A. We weren't waiting for someone to order us; we were waiting,

8 thinking that we were sheltered and protected there. At the first moment

9 that we felt unsafe, then the KLA withdrew and we left for Studime.

10 Q. Thank you. Then further on you said - this is paragraph 6 - that

11 you stayed in that village for five days, in Cecelija. "When the KLA told

12 us that the front line was broken at Shala and that the Serb forces had

13 broken through." Is that when you had to leave, due to those

14 circumstances?

15 A. It is explicitly stated in my statement that after the news was

16 confirmed that the front line was broken at Shala, then we felt unsafe and

17 then left for -- left Studime to go to a town or somewhere else.

18 Q. Already in the following paragraph it says, literally:

19 "At that time --" while you were in Cecelija, that is. "At that

20 time, I did not see any evidence of civilian deaths in Cecelija." Is that

21 right, that at that time in Cecelija there were no civilian casualties

22 during those five days?

23 A. As far as I know, there weren't any casualties, with the exception

24 of one victim. I don't know how he was killed. That I don't know.

25 Q. You've explained that. I'll get to that a bit later. But now,

Page 4088

1 after two paragraphs, you say:

2 "While I was in Cecelija, I saw KLA fighters. I don't know how

3 many there were, but some wore KLA uniform, others wore civilian

4 clothing."

5 I'm interested in the ratio. How many were in civilian clothing

6 and how many were in uniform? And they all belonged to the KLA. Who

7 outnumbered who?

8 A. The KLA staff had more members dressed in uniform. There were few

9 civilians, who were waiting maybe to get weapons or I don't know what.

10 They were exercising.

11 Q. In the next paragraph, you're talking about weapons and you say

12 which weapons the members of the KLA had. Is this true, what it says

13 here, that there were M-48 rifles and then Kalashnikovs. "And I also saw

14 one hand-held grenade launcher. It is the type that is fired from the

15 shoulder. They also had hand grenades."

16 Did the majority of KLA members have these weapons?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And now I'm interested in one more thing here. On page 4, on page

19 4 -- the English version is the 14th paragraph of page 3. It says here:

20 "In Cecelija, I heard that in the village -- I heard that the dead

21 body of a KLA fighter had been brought into the village. I was told that

22 he was killed in Sllakofc or Shala area."

23 Did you see that or did you only hear about that?

24 A. I only heard that the dead body was brought and was buried in

25 Ceceli.

Page 4089

1 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, now I am compelled

2 to go back to the first statement, just one single paragraph in the first

3 statement. That is page 3, the second paragraph in the English version.

4 Q. Over here, you stated, and I have to read this out to you so that

5 I could ask you something. You said that you stayed in Cecelija for five

6 days, and "during which time the KLA suffered such heavy losses to the

7 Serb forces that they told us that we had better leave the area." That's

8 what you stated. Is that right?

9 A. In my statement I have said that we heard the news that in Shala

10 there were losses inflicted on the KLA, and because of that, we were not

11 safe to stay in Ceceli and then decided to leave to safer places.

12 Q. I have to highlight this. You said here that during these five

13 days in Cecelija, "the KLA suffered such heavy losses to the Serb forces,"

14 et cetera. So can you tell us how many people lost their lives, how many

15 KLA members lost their lives?

16 A. I don't know about this loss. I just heard it from rumours,

17 because Shala is very far away from Ceceli.

18 Q. You've heard just now that there were heavy losses among the KLA.

19 A. This is what we heard. These were the rumours.

20 Q. So there were considerable casualties, then.

21 JUDGE MAY: That's what he said he heard.

22 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] I'm just interested in one more

23 thing.

24 Q. In this second statement, you described everything the way you had

25 put it in the first statement. However, in this second statement, you did

Page 4090

1 not mention at all that you had seen machine-gun fire aimed at civilians.

2 You did not mention that in your second statement at all. How do you

3 explain that? You said everything else, but you just did not say when the

4 convoy stopped with that white flag, you were standing there for two

5 hours, and in the second statement you did not mention at all that there

6 was any shooting at civilians, but you did say it in the first statement.

7 So how do you explain that?

8 MR. SAXON: May I object?


10 MR. SAXON: It clearly says, at the very beginning of the second

11 statement given by this witness that: "This statement is being made to

12 clarify some matters that have come up in the prior statement." At the

13 top of the page, a sentence that stands by itself. Now, given that

14 context, I believe this question is a bit unfair to the witness. He had

15 no reason to mention every detail in the second statement.

16 JUDGE MAY: That answers the question, Mr. Tapuskovic.

17 MR. SAXON: Thank you.

18 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, but he repeated everything

19 else, everything except for that.

20 Q. I do have to ask you, Mr. Gani: Did you see any shooting against

21 people? Did you see people who were being shot at, unarmed people?

22 A. At what point in time are you asking me about?

23 Q. At the moment when you were on the road in that column of people,

24 when you stopped, and when the white flag was raised. In this other

25 statement, you said that you stood there at that point for two hours, and

Page 4091

1 then you continued your journey. In this second statement, you only said

2 that you stood there for two hours, but you did not mention any shooting

3 whatsoever in your second statement. So is that the way it was?

4 A. We stayed there two hours. Then, after two hours, we decided to

5 raise the white flag, as I say, because we were unprotected. And so we

6 decided to go to the main road from Prishtina to Mitrovica, and then to

7 leave Kosova. During those two hours, I didn't hear any shooting, but we

8 felt defenceless and we had not eaten anything. We had no food, nothing

9 to drink, so we had to find a solution.

10 Q. When you continued towards Smrekovnice, was there any shooting, up

11 to the prison?

12 A. Mr. Tapuskovic, we are still at Studime e Eperme, before the

13 massacre was committed. Although we had the white flag, despite that, the

14 massacre was still perpetrated. What you are talking about happened after

15 that night when we spent at the agricultural cooperative, when we males

16 were taken to the prison, while we knew nothing about the children and the

17 women. So there is a difference from the events in that place to that in

18 the agricultural cooperative, and then we surrendered before we entered

19 the agriculture cooperative. But it is regarded the while flag, and what

20 happened, happened.

21 Q. I'm just asking you one more thing and that will be the end. On

22 the road, did you see any shooting? That's what I'm asking you. Were you

23 stopped by the white flag? Did you see any people being shot at there?

24 A. When we had the white flag, after two hours that we started to

25 move downwards, and when we entered Studime, they took away the flag and

Page 4092

1 then they began to maltreat us, to kill, to injure people, and so on. We

2 showed the white flag before we surrendered, but nevertheless, they did

3 what they wanted to do.

4 Q. And you saw 50 people who had lost their lives?

5 A. Yes, about 50 people. I saw them, sir, after they broke loose the

6 column of people, after they took away the white flag, then they started

7 to maltreat us. So after the flag was taken away, the people continued to

8 walk in the column, and then they were subjected to this massacre,

9 looting, raiding, and everything I said in my statement.

10 JUDGE MAY: Thank you.

11 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

12 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Saxon.

13 MR. SAXON: I will be brief, Your Honour.

14 Re-examined by Mr. Saxon:

15 Q. Mr. Haradinaj, you just mentioned -- rather, you just described

16 how "they" took away the white flag and began to maltreat us, to kill and

17 so on. Just so that the record is clear, because pronouns are difficult,

18 who is "they"? What do you mean by "they"?

19 A. It's very clear. The Serb army of the accused.

20 Q. All right. And earlier on, you mentioned that you -- when you

21 were in the village of Cecelija, you heard rumours or news that in a place

22 called Shala, that losses had been inflicted on the KLA, so that it was no

23 longer considered safe to stay in the village of Cecelija. If you know,

24 and only if you know: Approximately how far is this place called Shala

25 from Cecelija?

Page 4093

1 A. I can't give you an exact figure, but I think it's over ten

2 kilometres.

3 MR. SAXON: Thank you. I have no further questions.

4 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Haradinaj, thank you for coming to the Tribunal to

5 give your evidence. It's now concluded and you're free to go.

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I would like to thank you, this

7 Trial Chamber. Thank you for enabling me to come here.

8 JUDGE MAY: We'll adjourn now. Half past 9.00 tomorrow morning.

9 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 4.43 p.m.,

10 to be reconvened on Thursday, the 2nd day of

11 May, 2002, at 9.30 a.m.