Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 8912

1 Tuesday, 27 August 2002

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 9.02 a.m.

5 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Nice, while we're waiting for the witness, we have

6 the video now, do we?

7 MR. NICE: We have the video. We have two transcripts which I am

8 myself reviewing at this moment.

9 JUDGE MAY: How long is --

10 MR. NICE: The video takes about 13 minutes.

11 JUDGE MAY: Thirteen.

12 MR. NICE: Yes. I'm slightly undecided whether to deal with it

13 through this witness or to deal with it through Dr. Loshi later in the

14 week who is, I think, likely to be 92 bis'd for the most part but dealing

15 with videos directly because there's the video of the bodies before they

16 were buried that I think he's going to be dealing with quite probably.

17 JUDGE MAY: It may be more convenient when the accused will have

18 had more time to prepare for it.

19 MR. NICE: Yes. The only downside of that, to use a word I don't

20 much like, is that I think it's this witness who interviewed the two

21 Albanians, but then we have the fruits of his interview on the video.

22 The alternative is for us to review the transcripts in advance

23 because we can read them in less than 13 minutes and fast forward the

24 video through the five seconds that show the broadcaster, the two Serbs

25 pretending to be Albanians and the two Albanians, six segments, and the

Page 8913

1 last segment showing the man carrying the gun.

2 JUDGE MAY: Yes, so that may be more convenient.

3 MR. NICE: May I distribute then in those circumstances the

4 transcripts that I have. They're marked 1A -- very well. They're not

5 marked 1A. They're in the same order that I have, so I'm going to take

6 you through them.


8 MR. NICE: One of the other problems about the transcripts is that

9 we don't have English versions of all of it yet either.

10 JUDGE MAY: If it was this witness who interviewed these people,

11 then it's better obviously that he produces it so he can be asked about

12 it.

13 MR. NICE: Yes.

14 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Well, let's have the witness, please.

15 Mr. Milosevic, you've got another ten minutes of your general

16 cross-examination.

17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well, Mr. May.

18 [The witness entered court]


20 [Witness answered through interpreter]

21 JUDGE MAY: Yes.

22 Cross-examined by Mr. Milosevic: [Continued]

23 Q. [Interpretation] We stopped yesterday at the point, Mr. Xhemajli,

24 when your explanation that you did not help the people who were about to

25 be executed because you were afraid that you would jeopardise the

Page 8914

1 civilians. Did I understand you properly?

2 A. I helped people who had been injured, those who survived the

3 execution.

4 Q. Yes. But I asked you if it was true that you were watching

5 somebody about to execute some people, and you, as the commander of a unit

6 watching that from a wood, how is it that you didn't help them? How is it

7 that you didn't try to prevent something like that, to prevent something

8 like that from happening?

9 A. I told you yesterday because of the families of the people who

10 were in the mass, in the group there. That's the reason. Because the

11 families would have been jeopardised. There were 5.000 people in that

12 group.

13 Q. You were afraid that you would hit somebody from the families, is

14 that true?

15 A. No. It was because of the families on the meadow. That's why we

16 couldn't shoot, because of the families on the meadow, because -- it was

17 because of you, because you had been holding all these families there.

18 Q. All right. But couldn't you fire into the air in order to prevent

19 this that you were about to witness, to prevent the event from happening?

20 And you didn't do anything.

21 A. Same thing. If we'd killed one policeman more or less, nothing

22 would have changed. The execution would have taken place. There were

23 children. There were women, old people there.

24 Q. Mr. Xhemajli, are you supposed to tell this story in order to

25 confirm the alleged charges and to conceal a crime? Is this true or not?

Page 8915

1 JUDGE MAY: That's not a proper question.

2 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

3 Q. A NATO crime? Very well. This list here, based on what are you

4 proving that this is a list of people who were killed and buried in

5 Izbica, in Izbica?

6 A. I was the leader of the people during the -- who buried these

7 people, with certain friends. We all buried them together. I was there.

8 I was a member of the committee for the funerals. I organised the

9 recordings. We buried them all, and I was involved myself. I buried them

10 with my own hands. And I identified them.

11 Q. There is only a list of names here, and there is no proof for what

12 you are claiming, but all right. Could you please tell me how much time

13 you needed to ascertain that our forces had withdrawn from the Izbica

14 region?

15 A. Your forces withdrew on the 30th. They entered on the 27th, and

16 at 9.45 on the 30th, they withdrew.

17 Q. All right. There's obviously no point in wasting time on such

18 questions because you will not respond to them.

19 On page 7 -- on page 2 -- on page 7, paragraph 2, you stated that

20 the money and the documents that were taken from the families were

21 returned to them. When were they returned?

22 A. After the war ended. Some were returned during the war. Those

23 who were found in the hills and nearby, they had their documents returned

24 during the war.

25 Q. And how is it possible that you found money when you previously

Page 8916

1 claim that the soldiers confiscated all the money and the valuables? How

2 did you find this money?

3 A. Some people had it hidden. Everybody had to give some.

4 Your Honour, may I add something here?

5 JUDGE MAY: Just a moment.

6 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

7 Q. All right. You explained that money was taken away from them and

8 then you said that the money was found.

9 JUDGE MAY: Just a moment. Now, what is it you want to say, yes?

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is the -- this is money that

11 was found in the pockets of people who were executed.

12 JUDGE MAY: Very well. We see that.

13 Yes, Mr. Milosevic.

14 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

15 Q. We see that it is a banknote. Where it is found is something that

16 we cannot see.

17 Did you and your unit participate in the fighting which was

18 conducted from the 24th to the 29th of March in that area?

19 A. We were there.

20 Q. Can I take that as an affirmative response? What losses did your

21 unit and the other units, the other brigades of the KLA, sustain in the

22 period from the 24th to the 29th of March?

23 A. There were some. There were very few members of the units who

24 were lost, but the populous lost -- had suffered many casualties, members

25 of families.

Page 8917

1 Q. Since you stated yesterday in response to my questions that you

2 had three brigades in that region, did you bury the participants in the

3 fighting with our force -- with our soldiers and the police, or do you

4 still claim that you buried civilians?

5 A. There were also soldiers.

6 Q. There were. And you said that some man gave you land. Isn't it a

7 custom in Kosovo that each family takes its kin rather than allow him to

8 be buried somewhere else unless he's a soldier? Is this right or not,

9 Mr. Xhemajli?

10 A. When people die in a natural way, they're all buried in their own

11 graves. But these people were executed, and they must be buried at the

12 place where they were executed. And soldiers who -- who come into danger

13 and are -- meet their deaths that way are all buried together. They were

14 all buried -- they were all killed together in the same village.

15 Q. You mean those who are killed in fighting are buried as soldiers?

16 Is that what you want to say?

17 A. I said soldiers who put their lives in danger and who are killed

18 through no fault of their own, who are executed, will be buried together.

19 And I said this in my statement. Because some were killed in different

20 ways.

21 Q. Could you please describe -- very well, yes. You claim that that

22 is so, but I claim that each family wants to take its family member

23 regardless of the way in which he was killed.

24 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Milosevic, there's no point arguing with the

25 witness in this way. Now, you've got one more question left and then your

Page 8918

1 time is up.

2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Why only one? You said ten

3 minutes.

4 JUDGE MAY: Yes, and you've had your ten minutes.

5 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

6 Q. Could you describe this mass grave where you buried them

7 allegedly?

8 A. It's -- the mass grave is long and -- along one side there is a

9 stream, and Hamdi Bajrami granted the land for the martyrs.

10 Q. Did you bury them in separate graves or did you put them all in

11 one grave?

12 A. Where he granted the land, they were all buried separately on 28th

13 of March. These were new graves.

14 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Mr. Tapuskovic -- do you have any questions,

15 Mr. Wladimiroff?

16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I have several more questions,

17 Mr. May.

18 JUDGE MAY: No. You've had your time.

19 MR. WLADIMIROFF: I have only a few matters that might assist the

20 Court for clarification.

21 Questioned by Mr. Wladimiroff:

22 Q. Witness, about your glasses, since when are these glasses

23 prescribed by a doctor?

24 A. After the war.

25 Q. Did you wear glasses in 1999?

Page 8919

1 A. In 1999? Yes, from September on.

2 Q. And were these glasses that corrected your sight?

3 A. It is to shelter me from the light.

4 Q. But the question was: Do they also correct your sight?

5 A. Yes, it's normal.

6 Q. And what is the correction, for far-sight or for seeing nearby?

7 A. Short-sight. Now I can -- now I can see further.

8 Q. Right. Do you know the number or the percentage of correction?

9 A. No, I don't know. I'm not a specialist in this field.

10 Q. During the events in March 1999, am I right in thinking you did

11 not wear glasses?

12 A. No, I didn't.

13 Q. About the KLA, when you joined the KLA, you were a private, were

14 you not?

15 A. I was a volunteer.

16 Q. Sure, but you were a private, not a ranked officer?

17 A. During the war.

18 Q. During the war. Is that right?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Who was your commander when you joined the KLA? Unit commander,

21 that is.

22 A. All the time.

23 Q. Until you were promoted yourself?

24 A. There's a list there in Kosova. All soldiers are entered into

25 this register.

Page 8920












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 8921

1 Q. But you can say who was your commander when you joined the KLA.

2 A. All soldiers and their commanders are registered with UNMIK, both

3 now and then.

4 Q. Sure. But who was your commander when you joined the KLA?

5 A. It seems that I have finished.

6 JUDGE MAY: No. Why can't you answer the question? It's a

7 perfectly straightforward question, Mr. Xhemajli. There may be some

8 reason you don't want to answer it. Instead of fencing with counsel,

9 either answer it or tell us why you don't want you.

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I said I was the first leader of the

11 squad, and I was the commander of a platoon myself, and he asks who my

12 commander is.


14 Q. Witness, you told the Court when you joined the KLA you were a

15 private and later on you got promotion; is that right?

16 A. First a group was formed, an ordinary one, and then we formed a

17 group, a squad, and then the squad came -- became a platoon and I became

18 the platoon commander. But every -- everybody starts as a private, as a

19 soldier.

20 Q. When you started as a private, who was your commander?

21 A. I think -- I'm explaining that I was myself.

22 JUDGE MAY: He seems to be saying he didn't have one.


24 Q. When you were commander of your unit, did you always stay with

25 your -- with your unit?

Page 8922

1 A. Yes. Yes.

2 Q. When you were watching on the 28th of March, 1999, what happened,

3 can you describe the time frame? You told the Court when it all happened,

4 it started with the Serb forces advancing about noon. When did it all

5 happen? I mean, when did it all finish, on that late afternoon, beginning

6 afternoon? Could you provide the Court with a time frame?

7 A. The departure of the family was -- they finished leaving at about

8 half past one, and then they burned the tractors and the cars and the

9 things that were left on the meadow, the livestock, and then they burnt

10 the houses and everything else on the 28th of March. And they went on

11 burning on the 29th. And at 9.45 in the morning on the 30th, the Serbian

12 forces left.

13 Q. Thank you. When you were in the wood, in the woods, and you

14 watched this all, were you on higher ground?

15 A. A little bit, yes. Partly, yes. Slightly higher it was.

16 Q. And where was your unit?

17 A. In the hills.

18 Q. Were they with you?

19 A. They were rather further up.

20 Q. What do you mean by "further up"? Can you describe the distance?

21 A. About 200 metres away behind a hill by a stream.

22 Q. So they could observe you and you could observe them?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. You were in contact with your unit?

25 A. Only when I went myself on foot from time to time. We met every

Page 8923

1 now and then.

2 Q. They were on higher ground than you were, were they not?

3 A. They were further up, but you couldn't see them. They were behind

4 a hill. You had to go round.

5 Q. Was there any obstacles --

6 A. The -- the position where they are, you couldn't see anything.

7 They couldn't see the execution or the meadows, and I went round the hill

8 to see them.

9 Q. You told the Court there was a fight between the 24th and the 29th

10 of March, is that right, 1999?

11 A. I didn't say "fight."

12 Q. What was it then? Your unit was engaged in any incident?

13 A. No. The order came from the higher command not to do anything

14 because the family -- because of the families who were on the meadow and

15 in case reprisals were taken, because we considered everybody there,

16 including women and children, the elderly, we considered them all to be

17 KLA soldiers.

18 Q. Did you report what happened on the 28th to your commander, higher

19 commander?

20 A. Later.

21 Q. What do you mean by "later"?

22 A. When we met in the evening.

23 Q. So you were not instructed on the 28th itself by a higher command,

24 were you?

25 A. On the 27th we were, because it was on the 27th that some of the

Page 8924

1 families started going out onto the meadow. And on the 28th, the number

2 grew when they came from other villages, from Citak, Padalishte, Lecina,

3 Trnovo, Kastriot, Klladernica, and it became a great crowd.

4 Q. Did you report to higher command what happened on the 28th, what

5 you watched?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Were you instructed how to deal with the matter?

8 A. No instructions of any kind.

9 Q. How did you communicate with --

10 A. As long as the Serbian forces were there. Just to be careful.

11 Q. And what were the means of communication with higher command?

12 A. Some had radio links; others did not.

13 Q. Did you communicate yourself or through your unit?

14 A. Only through the unit.

15 Q. So you were in contact with your unit that day, were you not?

16 A. I said in the evening, after everything had happened.

17 MR. WLADIMIROFF: That's all I ask. Thank you.

18 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Nice, do you have any re-examination?

19 MR. NICE: I have re-examination, but it might be more convenient

20 to deal with that -- it's not very much, about half a dozen questions --

21 to deal with that all at the end rather after any questions of the accused

22 when we've played the video.

23 JUDGE MAY: Very well.

24 MR. NICE: Can we play the video then now, please?

25 JUDGE MAY: Do we have to play this 13 minutes?

Page 8925

1 MR. NICE: If the Court's happy to read the transcript first?

2 JUDGE MAY: Yes. We'll do that. We'll read the transcript.

3 MR. NICE: May I sit down while the Court does that?

4 JUDGE MAY: Yes, please.

5 Just a moment. We're reading this transcript. You can address us

6 then.

7 Mr. Nice, you first of all have to explain where this comes from,

8 and next we'll have to consider the admissibility of it.

9 MR. NICE: Can I deal with it through the witness?

10 JUDGE MAY: Yes.

11 Re-examined by Mr. Nice:

12 Q. Can you help us, please, very briefly, the video that contains

13 various components includes a television broadcast. Where did that come

14 from? Who recorded it and when?

15 A. It was made in Switzerland by Mr. Rexhepi after the war. His

16 brother gave a copy of it to me. And then I saw someone saying that the

17 village of Izbica doesn't exist, there's only 12 houses, only 70

18 inhabitants, et cetera.

19 Q. Right. And then you saw on the same clip, was it, the two alleged

20 Albanians denying that anything happened in the village of Izbica; is that

21 correct?

22 A. Yes. There were two Serbs from the area --

23 Q. That's all we need. Next thing is the composite video then

24 contains interviews with the two -- with two people bearing the names of

25 the names given by the people you say were Serbs. Was it you who

Page 8926

1 conducted those interviews? Just yes or no.

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And it's clear from the transcript that you conducted the

4 interviews after evidence had been given and broadcast by a woman witness

5 here to whom denials of the incident happening at all had been put by the

6 accused. That's correct?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. And roughly when did you conduct those interviews?

9 A. With the Albanians? I did them later, a month later.

10 Q. Well --

11 JUDGE MAY: It sounds to me like rebuttal evidence. It doesn't

12 sound to me like proper evidence in chief, but we'll consider it.

13 MR. NICE: Thank you.

14 [Trial Chamber confers]

15 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Milosevic, we're going to exclude this document.

16 At the moment, it is -- just --

17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Nevertheless --

18 JUDGE MAY: It doesn't -- just a moment. It does not relate to

19 any issue which has been raised. It can be put forward in rebuttal if

20 some issue is raised. It is made out by this witness, and we're not

21 minded to admit it. That concludes the matter.

22 MR. NICE: Your Honour, can I make just two observations about

23 that and then move on to the re-examination? The position is as I

24 explained it yesterday, and as I explained yesterday, it may feature

25 additionally as an element in relation to propaganda, so it may turn up

Page 8927

1 there. Secondly, the Chamber said that the matter was in issue and thus

2 the video became admissible. I was concerned yesterday that there may

3 have been some misunderstanding as the purposes, so I'm quite happy to

4 deal with it as a rebuttal issue. But I should say that it appears, and

5 it's quite important that this should be clarified, that the accused still

6 is denying that this issue occurred at all. It's not entirely clear to me

7 whether he's running a second defence that it was in some way misdescribed

8 or miscast. It seems to me he's challenging this killing occurred at

9 all. Now, if that is the case, it would be helpful for us to know that in

10 advance, and I don't want to take the accused by any -- by surprise, so I

11 must tell the Court this: If he is really saying that this incident

12 didn't happen at all, he hasn't challenged the reburial, that is, the

13 taking of the bodies and their removal. We have material which I can't

14 identify for reasons in detail at the moment which has led to a detailed

15 request for assistance in relation to provision of the relevant report.

16 That report has so far been denied us going to show what happened at the

17 reburial, the taking of the bodies and their removal, and we will be

18 seeking the assistance of the Court in due course to compel production of

19 that report, but it's important for us to know whether the accused is

20 denying that the incident happened at all and that there was thus no

21 removal of the bodies as the material may in due course unequivocally

22 confirm or whether he's offering some alternative explanation.

23 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Nice, you must take it in this case that you will

24 get no assistance from him. You can take it that everything is in issue

25 and every explanation is put forward, and if you deal with the matter on

Page 8928

1 that basis, I think we'll get on as quickly as we can.

2 MR. NICE: In which case I think we will be coming to the Court

3 for further assistance in relation to this particular documentation.

4 JUDGE MAY: Very well.

5 MR. NICE: I've asked that the booth play a very short clip in

6 light of the cross-examination of a video that will be produced by

7 Dr. Loshi later in the week, and I just want us to look at a very short of

8 it and take the witness's answer on it. Yes, it's not the video we were

9 originally looking at. It's a different video.

10 JUDGE MAY: Yes. It's a different video. We'll return the

11 transcripts, if the Registrar would take them.

12 MR. NICE: Just play a short bit from it, but it won't be produced

13 until Friday or whenever, but if we can have a look at it just now,

14 please, Dr. Loshi's video as it will be. Right. Here it is. In due

15 course, Mr. Xhemajli, Dr. Loshi will produce this exhibit. It's not

16 moving very satisfactorily at the moment. Can it be made to advance a

17 little? I don't want it as a still. I want it as a moving.

18 Cut that. That's not the part we want. Dr. Loshi -- oh, here we

19 are. This part here.

20 Just look at this, please -- and let the video run, please, just

21 for 30 seconds. Is this a video and a view you've seen before?

22 Mr. Xhemajli?

23 A. Yes. That was on the western side there.

24 Q. Was that just simply part of a video made of the bodies before

25 they were buried?

Page 8929












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13 English transcripts.













Page 8930

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. The accused is effectively suggesting --

3 A. In the same place where the people were executed.

4 Q. You'll see all of that later this week or more of that later this

5 week. The accused is suggesting that you have simply made up this entire

6 account of people being killed, lying in a field, and being buried. Have

7 you made it up or is what you've told this Tribunal true?

8 A. It's the original. That's where the people were executed. No one

9 was -- none of the bodies were moved at all.

10 Q. Very well.

11 MR. NICE: Your Honour, a number of questions have been asked

12 about the accused's -- the witness's statement. May the statement be

13 produced as an exhibit? That deals with the problem of the two lists to

14 which I referred.

15 JUDGE MAY: Let's have a number for it before we move on.

16 THE REGISTRAR: It will be Prosecutor's number 287.

17 MR. NICE: Thank you very much.

18 Q. We don't need to look at it any further but as you explained to

19 the learned Judges yesterday, did you identify in your statement people

20 who survived as eyewitnesses to this massacre? Just yes or no.

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Of course the Tribunal will know as will those following the trial

23 that two such witnesses have already been called.

24 You were taken -- perhaps I just ought to ask you to have a look

25 at -- no. I'll ask the Tribunal to look at -- speed. You were taken on

Page 8931

1 page 3 in the English version of your statement to a sentence that began

2 "On the 24th of March". And only a couple of sentences were read to you.

3 It was read that "On the 24th of March, NATO commenced its offensive

4 against Serbia. It was very welcome at this time. The KLA wasn't so

5 strong then and needed help." That was read out to you. What was not

6 read out to you but was in your statement has the immediate following

7 sentence was as follows: "The Serbs were killing civilians, women and

8 children. Some KLA soldiers were killed protecting their families."

9 Were those two sentences in your statement true? Yes or no?

10 A. Yes, it's true. They killed children. And there were conflicts

11 which were not caused by -- by our side.

12 Q. Thank you. It's been suggested to you by the accused either that

13 your story is false or effectively he's saying you were showing lack of

14 courage in not going down and intervening in what you may have foreseen at

15 the time as a developing crisis that could have led to killings. What do

16 you say to the suggestion that it was lack of courage that led you down

17 there, that stopped your going down there to intervene in this field of

18 thousands of people? What do you say to that suggestion?

19 A. I said before it's not true that we couldn't act. We could have

20 acted to protect our families. But we knew what was going on. There were

21 crimes being committed, and we want didn't -- for that reason, we didn't

22 want to jeopardise all our families.

23 Q. Thank you. The allegation includes effectively that you've made

24 up everything that you've said and that the bodies didn't exist and that

25 people weren't killed. You've explained to this Tribunal that you made

Page 8932

1 your list that we've seen from notes. The notes that you made, were they

2 contemporaneous and by "contemporaneous" I mean --

3 A. They were contemporaneous, yes. At the same time, at the same

4 time people were being buried everyone was registered that time when they

5 were being buried.

6 Q. Will you please take from your bag the book that we know you don't

7 want to hand over permanently but you say contains your original notes?

8 I'm going to ask you to show it to the Judges.

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. And we can have it photocopied in its original form and made an

11 exhibit if the Judges so decide.

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. We will just have a look at the format of these notes that you say

14 were original, prepared at the time that you were dealing with the bodies

15 that were buried, so that the Judges can see it?

16 A. That's it here, these pages. Not that one but all the rest.

17 MR. NICE: I ask Your Honours to look at this. I'll arrange to

18 have it photocopied.

19 Q. Thank you. That's enough pages. They only need to see a sample.

20 Thank you. Hand it in, please.

21 [Trial Chamber confers]

22 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Show it to the accused. Just those pages.

23 MR. NICE: While that's being -- I'm sorry.

24 Q. Witness, would you just -- Witness, will you listen to me for a

25 minute? While that's being done, would you just get ready to hand to me

Page 8933

1 the photographs of yourself at various gravesites that I've seen and I may

2 just want to show to the Judges in light of one of the items of

3 cross-examination? No, don't take them out of -- no, don't take them out.

4 Leave them in there. No. It's the one of you at the gravesites. It's

5 the other album.

6 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Nice, before we get to this, would you take the

7 notebook back so that you can have it photocopied? We'll see that in a

8 moment, Mr. Xhemajli.

9 Take the notebook back. You can photocopy the relevant pages. We

10 will take now, so that we have it in sequence, an exhibit number for those

11 pages.

12 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Prosecutor's Exhibit 288.

13 MR. NICE:

14 Q. Don't hold them up, Mr. Xhemajli. Can you hand all those

15 photographs to me, those photographs and the other album that shows you at

16 various cemeteries, please. There's another album that shows you at

17 various cemeteries. Can you just hand them to me, please? Thank you.

18 Thank you very much.

19 A suggestion -- questions have been asked about your use of dark

20 glasses. Is this album, which by probably doesn't need to be produced, an

21 album of photographs of you at various gravesites since the war? Can you

22 just show it to Their Honours, please?

23 Your Honours, the point of this is extremely obvious. If you look

24 at the photographs, they all contain a picture of the witness. They all

25 contain him wearing dark glasses.

Page 8934

1 [Trial Chamber confers]

2 MR. NICE: I can't swear to it, Your Honour, but I think every one

3 has him with dark glass on. I don't ask it to add to the burden of

4 exhibits in the case once they've been seen.

5 JUDGE MAY: Show it to the accused.


7 Q. And can you tell us please, Mr. Xhemajli, over approximately what

8 period of time, what years were those photographs taken?

9 A. The ones you have in your hands, they were taken at the time when

10 the people were buried in May, after the war.

11 Q. Mr. Xhemajli, the ones I've just shown to Their Honours of you at

12 various cemeteries, when were they taken?

13 A. After the war. They were taken after the war.

14 Q. The other two photographs you've handed to me were taken when?

15 A. On the 11th of May, the day of the burial. We buried the people

16 on the 12th, the people who had been executed. They were all civilians.

17 Q. Very well. Give these to Their Honours, and my last question.

18 These are two photographs that the witness happens to have, although I

19 think the exhibits of Dr. Loshi will be much more comprehensive generally.

20 And, Your Honour, again I don't ask that we burden the exhibit list or the

21 store of exhibits with these photographs, but they're two photographs that

22 this witness happens to have in his possession in support of his

23 testimony. That's all I ask.

24 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Xhemajli, that concludes your evidence. Thank you

25 for coming to the International Tribunal to give it. You are free to go.

Page 8935

1 What is it?

2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] As for the tape, Mr. May, first of

3 all, I have an objection. And secondly, I have to ask him about this tape

4 that was actually played now.

5 JUDGE MAY: No. You've -- which tape are you talking about?

6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Last night, with my very own eyes,

7 precisely because of these manipulations by Mr. Nice, I saw on

8 television --

9 JUDGE MAY: You will stop this. You will stop making these wild

10 allegations of manipulation. There is no foundation for them at all.

11 Now, you will conduct yourself as though you're in a Court.

12 Now, that -- that tape has been ruled out. Any re-examination was

13 perfectly proper on that limited basis which it was allowed in. I'm going

14 now to ask this witness to withdraw, his evidence having finished. We are

15 not admitting the other tape. You know that. So there's no point in you

16 going on about it. No. We've had enough on this point.

17 Mr. Xhemajli, would you withdraw, please? We've heard your

18 evidence. Thank you for coming. We're going on with the next witness.

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Can I --

20 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Objection, Mr. May.

21 JUDGE MAY: We're going on with the next witness.

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I would like to thank you. I would

23 like to thank you, Your Honours, and international justice for persecuting

24 [As interpreted] crime.

25 [The witness withdrew]

Page 8936

1 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Ryneveld.

2 MR. RYNEVELD: Yes, Your Honours. The Prosecution called Musa

3 Krasniqi as the next witness. Again, Your Honours. I believe that

4 according to a ruling, the request was that the Prosecution not proceed by

5 way of 92 bis with respect to this witness, but proceed with him as a

6 witness viva voce.

7 JUDGE MAY: He's dealing with a new area, is he?

8 MR. RYNEVELD: Yes, that's correct. There will be other witnesses

9 who are the subject of an application for 92 bis, but he is the first to

10 speak about Dubrava Prison. And while we're waiting, if Your Honours wish

11 to look at the atlas, page 5. Page 5. The best way to describe the

12 location would be you see at line 60 at the top and line -- well, 12 on

13 the side, and then you'll see the big village of Istok and about an inch

14 to the right of that you see Dubrava.

15 [The witness entered court]

16 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Let the witness take the declaration.

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

18 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.


20 [Witness answered through interpreter]

21 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Take a seat.

22 Examined by Mr. Ryneveld:

23 Q. Mr. Krasniqi, I understand, sir, that you're a 40-year-old Kosovo

24 Albanian from Barane in the municipality of Peja in west Kosovo; is that

25 correct?

Page 8937

1 A. From Barane, yes.

2 Q. And, sir, I understand as well that you're married, you have a

3 son, and your occupation is that of a teacher of physics in a local

4 village school; is that correct?

5 A. That's right.

6 Q. Is it also true, sir, that you completed your military service in

7 the JNA in 1983 with an artillery unit based in Knin in Yugoslavia?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. During 1998, sir, were you a KLA member and a commander in the

10 Barane KLA headquarters?

11 A. Yes, that's right.

12 Q. Sir, I'd like you to start telling us, if you would, please, about

13 events that happened on the 11th of September of 1998. On that date, did

14 something happen to you that caused you eventually end up being

15 institutionalised in a prison?

16 A. On the 11th of September, I fell into an ambush. That is not

17 really a police checkpoint but an ambush. And the Serbian police, after

18 stopping me, sent me to the police station in Peja, and there they held me

19 for 24 hours, and I was interrogated by two people. One of them I knew.

20 We had completed the faculty in the same building. He had been a teacher

21 of geography while I was a physics teacher. And after 24 hours, they

22 sentenced me to three days. And then on the 17th of September, I came in

23 front of an investigating Judge. And on the 27th September, they sent me

24 to Lipjan prison.

25 Q. All right. Do you know, sir, after you were being interrogated by

Page 8938












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 8939

1 one of these who had been a faculty colleague of yours, do you know why

2 you were being interrogated and why you were sent to prison?

3 A. They had information that I had been a commander in the KLA.

4 Q. I see. And -- now, you say that you were held -- eventually you

5 were sent to Lipjan prison in the latter stages of September 1998; is that

6 correct?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Had you yet had a trial or were you awaiting trial? Were you on

9 remand status?

10 A. We were waiting for our trial.

11 Q. All right. What happened once you got to Lipjan?

12 A. We were waited by cordons of prison wardens and policemen who

13 maltreated us incessantly for five days. And then after five days, we

14 were in danger from hunger, and then we were given 500 grams of bread for

15 five people. That's 100 grams each. And then they started maltreating us

16 now and then, not collectively. And I was kept there until the 5th of

17 December.

18 Q. All right. Now -- so it was the 5th of December that you were

19 transferred somewhere else, I take it. Where was that?

20 A. On 5th of December, they took me to Dubrava Prison near Istog.

21 Q. Just so that we're clear, the prisoners at Lipjan prison with whom

22 you were incarcerated, do you know what their ethnicity was?

23 A. Yes. We were all Albanians.

24 Q. And do you happen to know the ethnicity of the guards or the

25 prison officials who were looking after the prisoners?

Page 8940

1 A. There were some Albanians, but we couldn't really -- unable to see

2 them. They were forbidden to contact us.

3 Q. Anyway, when you got to Dubrava on the 5th of December, 1998,

4 where were you placed?

5 A. When we came to Dubrava, I was put in the isolation block known as

6 C block. And when I went up to the first floor, there were about 56 other

7 prisoners, and there were about 108 brought from Lipjan, and they were put

8 on other floors as well as in the isolation blocks.

9 Q. So you were not the only prisoner brought from Lipjan. You were

10 there with a group of others also transferred to Dubrava on the 5th of

11 December, 1998; is that correct?

12 A. As I said, there were about 108 of us who were transferred from

13 Lipjan.

14 Q. All right.

15 MR. RYNEVELD: Madam Usher, could you place this photograph on the

16 ELMO, please.

17 Q. I'm going to show you now, sir, what appears to be an aerial

18 photograph of the Dubrava Prison. Have you seen that photograph before?

19 Do you recognise the scene depicted in that particular photograph, sir? Is

20 that a photograph of Dubrava Prison?

21 MR. RYNEVELD: Your Honours, this is at tab 4 of Exhibit 165, the

22 Dubrava binder.

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, this is Dubrava Prison.


25 Q. All right, sir. You said you were placed in C block, in the

Page 8941

1 isolation area. Perhaps with a pointer or whatever else Madam Usher can

2 find for you, you can show us on the ELMO what building you were placed in

3 when you first got there. If you point on the ELMO, then we can see it on

4 the television screen. Can you reach forward and show us? Lean forward

5 so we can also get your voice in the microphone, please.

6 A. This is C block, the isolation block.

7 Q. That's where you went when you arrived. All right, sir. How many

8 prisoners do you -- do you recall how many prisoners were in C block

9 altogether?

10 A. About 160.

11 Q. All right. And were there other prisoners in other buildings

12 within the Dubrava Prison compound?

13 A. There were a very few who of people who had been sentenced to long

14 sentences of years for murders and ordinary crimes but not many of them.

15 But we in the isolation block, we were on remand, under investigation.

16 Q. And were people on remand housed generally separately from people

17 who were there serving a sentence after being convicted?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Sir, during the course of your stay at Dubrava from December 5th

20 to, say, early May of 1999, did more prisoners arrive at the prison? And

21 if so, do you know what the total was by early May of 1999?

22 A. After I was sentenced on 16th March and after the start of the

23 NATO bombing, round about -- from the beginning of April to 3rd of May,

24 they brought all the prisoners to the Dubrava Prison from all the prisons

25 of Serbia. So by this time we were about 224 of us. And after the 3rd of

Page 8942

1 May, we were more than 930 because of the people that they brought.

2 Q. Now, sir, do you know -- did you have any -- while you were at the

3 prison, did you notice the presence of any military installations around

4 the perimeter of Dubrava Prison?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Tell us about that. What do you know was there and how do you

7 know it?

8 A. The Dubrava Prison is on a slope, and you can see here the area

9 outside the perimeter wall where there were military columns in movement,

10 changing place time after time.

11 Q. Where? Are you able to describe by pointing at the photograph the

12 areas where you saw these military columns? Is that visible? Just point

13 that out with a pen if you would, please.

14 A. It's not really very visible, but near the administrative block

15 here. And this was -- you could also conceal military equipment here

16 where I'm pointing.

17 Q. All right. You're, for the record, pointing to the top end of the

18 photograph behind the word "Admin block" on the photograph.

19 Did you actually see any military equipment apart from columns,

20 troop columns?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. What did you see?

23 A. We saw APCs and tanks and anti-aircraft guns.

24 Q. Did you ever see any of those military equipment facilities in

25 operation? For example, did you ever see the anti-aircraft guns being

Page 8943

1 used?

2 A. On the day when they -- they took us out to Lipjan the second

3 time, when I left the prison gate I saw these anti-aircraft guns destroyed

4 by NATO.

5 Q. Prior to seeing them destroyed, had you ever seen them being

6 fired? And by "fired" I mean that they were shooting at something with

7 them.

8 A. Yes. Round about April, they provoked the NATO aeroplanes by

9 using these anti-aircraft guns for their own purposes.

10 Q. When you say "provoked," what actions did you see that caused you

11 to believe that it was provoking? What were they doing?

12 A. I heard a guard near my window saying that, "It seems to me that

13 they all hit the aircraft."

14 Q. Did you hear the guns being shot, sir?

15 A. Yes. They were firing them.

16 Q. Thank you. Sir, either from your own knowledge or from what you

17 heard from others, do you know whether Dubrava Prison had been used for

18 any other purpose other than a prison before your arrival on the 5th of

19 December, 1998?

20 A. Before we came, Dubrava Prison was used for logistics purposes by

21 the Yugoslav army. There was generally Serbian forces there, soldiers,

22 policemen, and paramilitaries.

23 Q. Now, just a few moments ago in response to another question, you

24 indicated that you had been moved to another location after your trial.

25 When was your trial and what were you convicted of?

Page 8944

1 A. The trial was held on 16th of March, 1998 [As interpreted], and I

2 was sentenced on the -- supposedly as a member of the KLA and an activist

3 of the Democratic League of Kosova.

4 Q. Sir, I don't know if I misheard you or whether it was a

5 translation problem, but I heard the interpretation that you were

6 convicted on the 16th of March, 1998. Do you mean 1998 or 1999 that you

7 were convicted?

8 A. I mean 16th of March, 1999.

9 Q. Thank you. And what was your sentence for those convictions?

10 A. I was sentenced on the accusation, on the charge of terrorist

11 conspiracy as a member of the KLA and a member of the Democratic League of

12 Kosova.

13 Q. I'm sorry. My question must not have been clear. How long was

14 your sentence? Like how much time were you sentenced to serve for that

15 conviction?

16 A. I was sentenced to one year.

17 Q. And where were you sentenced to serve that one year? Was that

18 back at Dubrava Prison?

19 A. After the verdict, they -- they took me immediately to Dubrava

20 where I was to serve my sentence.

21 Q. Yes. Now, were you placed back in the same C block that you had

22 been while you were on remand or were you placed in another building? And

23 if so, is that building shown on the photograph?

24 A. I was put in the same building and stayed for four days on the

25 second floor. And after four days, they eased my conditions as a

Page 8945

1 sentenced prisoner and I was put on the ground floor in the same building

2 by the entrance, to the right.

3 Q. Now, you were sentenced on the 16th. Did something happen on the

4 24th of March, 1999, to your knowledge?

5 A. On the 24th of March, at about twenty past eight in the evening,

6 we heard a plane flying at great speed, and five minutes later, the guards

7 came and they turned out all the lights and locked all the doors.

8 Q. And did you subsequently hear from other prisoners who had had

9 contact with people from outside what had occurred on the 24th of March,

10 1999?

11 A. On the 24th of March, at about 10.00, there was somebody whose

12 name I cannot remember, a lawyer visiting his client, and he said that the

13 Rambouillet conference had not been successful and that the NATO bombing

14 would start that night.

15 Q. All right. I'm going to move ahead, sir. First of all, on the

16 24th of March, 1999, did the attitude of the guards towards the prisoners

17 change in any way?

18 A. On the -- on the next day -- not on the 24th, but on the next day

19 things started changing. There was -- there were fewer meals, less food.

20 There was only two meals a day instead of three. And a few days later,

21 the mishandling, the mistreating started, the beatings.

22 Q. All right. I'm going to skip ahead if I may to the 19th of May,

23 1999. What happened on that day that brought you to the court to talk

24 about that today?

25 A. On the 19th of May, at about 12.00 or 1.00 - we didn't have the

Page 8946

1 right to wear watches - but it was round about midday, we heard a loud

2 explosion in the prison complex on the administration building, and that

3 is when a NATO bomb fell. After about five or six seconds, bombs fell on

4 C block, two of them, and another one nearby or alongside it.

5 On this occasion, we didn't really know what was happening. The

6 guards fled and left us locked up in the prison. We started to break down

7 the doors to get out of the cells. This was round about 1.30. Then other

8 former prisoners who came who were now free, and they helped us to get out

9 of the isolation block. Then on the second floor known as the hall, three

10 prisoners died and 15 were injured by the bombs.

11 Q. All right. How many bombs did you say that fell in total on the

12 19th of May, to your knowledge?

13 A. I believe that in all, four bombs fell. One on the administrative

14 block, two on C block, and another one on the block alongside, nearby.

15 Q. Now, sir, just so that we're clear, on the photograph that's on

16 the ELMO before you, the administrative block is shown in the top

17 left-hand corner. Would you look at it, please? Point that out.

18 A. [Indicates]

19 Q. Okay. And there are two C blocks. One is C block isolation 12,

20 and then when you look to the right of the photograph, there is C block 8

21 for convicted. Which block did the bombs fall on when you say they landed

22 on C block?

23 A. Here on number 11. Two fell on 12 and one on 11.

24 Q. All right. So when we're talking about C block, you're talking

25 about the isolation block at the lower part of the photograph and cell

Page 8947












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 8948

1 block 11 is one just to the north of it on the photograph. Thank you.

2 All right. Now, two days later, sir, was the prison again bombed

3 by -- was the prison again bombed?

4 A. On 21st of May, at about half past ten, the prison complex was

5 bombed again. On this day, the guards and the prison administration were

6 put us all in the yard what we called -- what we called the yard of the

7 prison complex.

8 Q. Yes. And you're pointing that out. Uh-huh.

9 A. After awhile, the bombing started and the bombs -- the first bombs

10 fell on the kitchen.

11 Q. Yes.

12 A. Prison kitchen. And the second one fell on the reception block

13 where there were 167 prisoners from Gjakove who had been taken as

14 hostages. And they were told to leave the building and join us on the

15 open space. But they said it's better to stay inside and be killed by

16 NATO than to be massacred by the Serbs.

17 And throughout that day there was further bombing of the prison

18 complex, including what we called the sports hall or the gym, which is

19 here. And all the other buildings were also hit.

20 Q. One more question before I anticipate there will be a break, sir.

21 Do you know how many prisoners were killed on the 21st of May as a result

22 of that bombing?

23 A. More than -- more than 16 were killed on 21st May. So if you join

24 that to the other nine, there are 23.

25 MR. RYNEVELD: Your Honours, I'm about to move into the next topic

Page 8949

1 which is of a different nature. I wonder whether this is the appropriate

2 time for the break. I can start --


4 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you.

5 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Ryneveld, it would obviously be helpful if we had

6 a copy of that photograph.

7 MR. RYNEVELD: Yes. Do Your Honours -- I believe Your Honours

8 should have it.

9 JUDGE MAY: Where is it?

10 MR. RYNEVELD: In the tab. And while I'm thinking of it. I'm bad

11 for housekeeping matters, I don't think I've asked for a number for the

12 exhibit that's on the ELMO now.

13 JUDGE MAY: Well, see if you can make a better copy for us than

14 the one we've got. It's not very clear.

15 MR. RYNEVELD: Yes, I'm not sure whether Your Honours -- yeah, you

16 have a different one. I'll have a copies of this one made. The ones Your

17 Honours have in the binder are ones that I will show to the witness later.

18 Those are ones in which he's actually -- it's similar but not identical.

19 Those are the ones where he's actually made handwritten notations. I'll

20 be referring to that later.

21 JUDGE MAY: Those are attached to the statement which we have.

22 MR. RYNEVELD: Yes. What I will do is during the break is provide

23 copies of the actual exhibit that I'm asking to have marked as a number

24 now.

25 JUDGE MAY: And so I've got the evidence right, he's saying there

Page 8950

1 were 23 killed, is that right, on the 21st of May?

2 MR. RYNEVELD: That's what I heard him say, yes, Your Honour.

3 JUDGE MAY: Very well. We'll adjourn now. Twenty minutes.

4 MR. RYNEVELD: I'm sorry, Your Honour. Tab 4, Exhibit 165, I

5 believe, should have a copy of the document that is on the ELMO now. It's

6 different than the one attached to --

7 JUDGE MAY: It would be much easier if we started again with some

8 good copies, if you could try and make them, and we will give it a new

9 exhibit number.

10 MR. RYNEVELD: Certainly will. Yes, Your Honour.

11 JUDGE MAY: Thank you. Mr. Krasniqi, don't speak to anybody about

12 your evidence during the adjournment, please, and don't let anybody speak

13 to you about.

14 --- Recess taken at 10.31 a.m.

15 --- On resuming at 10.55 a.m.

16 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Ryneveld.

17 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you, Your Honour.

18 Q. Mr. Krasniqi, just before we move on to the 22nd of May, I want to

19 just ask you a couple of questions of clarification. I believe you told

20 us about the number of people killed by NATO bombing. You did some math

21 and ended up with 23. I understand you told us 16 were killed on the

22 21st. Where did -- I'm sorry. How did you get to 23? You added nine.

23 Where were the nine? Was that on the same day, the 21st, are you talking

24 about the 19th? Perhaps you could clarify that for us.

25 You're getting no translation. All right. Let me try that again.

Page 8951

1 Is the witness getting translation at the moment? Apparently not. I

2 started before the booth was ready. Sorry.

3 All right. Mr. Krasniqi, I believe you told us just before the

4 break that you added nine people to a total of 16 prisoners that you say

5 were killed on the 21st of May. Can you tell us where those -- where you

6 get the figure of nine? Was that nine other prisoners killed on the 21st

7 or are you referring back to the 19th? Perhaps you could tell us who you

8 mean by that?

9 A. On the 21st of May, there were 19. And then three were killed on

10 the 21st and there were a total of 23 people who were killed during NATO

11 bombings. And there were nine others on the 23rd of May who were killed.

12 But we haven't spoken about them yet.

13 Q. All right.

14 JUDGE MAY: It's still not clear.

15 MR. RYNEVELD: I'll do this piecemeal, if I may.

16 JUDGE MAY: Let's start with the 21st of May. Mr. Krasniqi, would

17 you please be very careful and listen to the questions.


19 Q. And the 21st of May, to your knowledge, how many people were

20 killed as a result of the bombing?

21 A. Nineteen prisoners.

22 Q. On the 19th of May, two days earlier, you told us there were three

23 killed; is that correct?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. All right. I now want to move, if I may, to the -- we're trying

Page 8952

1 to do this chronologically. On the 22nd of May, so the following morning

2 after the second NATO bombing, I ask you to turn your mind to an event

3 that occurred about 6.30 in the morning. Tell us in as much detail,

4 please, what occurred on the 22nd of May, 1999.

5 A. On that date at 6.30 [As interpreted] in the morning, we'd been on

6 the sports field under the open sky that night, the night before, a

7 policeman came with a megaphone and turned to us from the watchtower of

8 the prison and said that we were going to -- "We're going to take you out

9 to Nis, to Nis Prison, for your own security." Then because of the bitter

10 experience that former prisoners, Albanian prisoners had had in the Nis

11 Prison earlier, we said that we should burn or destroy all our personal

12 documents because the warden -- the prison guards would beat us and treat

13 us very badly. So that's what we did.

14 At about 6.00, the same person and two assistant guards turned to

15 us and spoke through the megaphone once again saying that, "You have

16 another ten minutes to get in line, to get ready."

17 Q. Perhaps I can ask you to clarify something. I believe you

18 indicated that you were asked to line up about 6.30 and then you said

19 later at 6.00 they spoke to you again. Maybe you could clarify the times

20 for us. Maybe I misunderstood you.

21 What time were you first addressed through the megaphone and what

22 time was it you were told you were going to be transferred to Nis Prison

23 in Serbia?

24 A. They woke us at 5.30, the same person with the megaphone. And

25 then at 6.00 -- and then the rest was at 6.00.

Page 8953

1 Q. Well, sir, eventually did the prisoners line up on the sports

2 field?

3 A. We started lining up in about five or six lines of men.

4 Q. How many men in total would you estimate were lining up in front

5 of the watchtower on the sports field?

6 A. Well, the prisoners started lining up and --

7 Q. Sorry. My question is: Are you able to give us a numerical

8 estimate as to how many men were lining up?

9 A. Over 800, because some of the prisoners went into hiding in the

10 prison complex.

11 Q. All right. Then what happened, if anything?

12 A. After they told us to line up for the second time, it wasn't more

13 than five seconds after that that grenades started falling. Hand grenades

14 were thrown, four or five, and then there were hand -- there were

15 bazookas, hand rockets, and all sorts of light arms, semi-automatic

16 rifles, rifles, machine-guns started firing at that moment.

17 Q. At whom were they firing?

18 A. They were firing at us who were in lines as we were lining up from

19 all the walls of the prison and especially the parts of the walls which

20 had been broken by NATO bomb. There were guards there.

21 MR. RYNEVELD: Your Honours, during the break we do have copies of

22 the exhibit. Have they been distributed to Your Honours? We do have

23 those.

24 JUDGE MAY: Exhibit number, please.

25 THE REGISTRAR: That will be marked Prosecutor's Exhibit 289.

Page 8954

1 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you, Your Honour. I might say, Your Honour,

2 although it's been given a number, you are aware it's already got Exhibit

3 165.

4 JUDGE MAY: Yes, I am.

5 MR. RYNEVELD: All right.

6 Q. Now, sir, looking at the new exhibit that's on the ELMO, can you

7 tell us, sir, is the watchtower visible on this particular exhibit? When

8 you look at the sports field, is the watchtower shown on this exhibit or

9 is it off the photograph?

10 A. The watchtower should be down here somewhere. And on the first

11 copy you can see it, but not on this photograph.

12 Q. All right. Now, you have also made a notation on another angle of

13 this aerial photograph. Might I --

14 MR. RYNEVELD: Madam Usher, can I ask you to place this on the

15 ELMO?

16 I believe this is the copy that's attached to the statement, Your

17 Honour, but it shows the location. I apologise for the very poor quality

18 of this document but it's the best copy we have. All right.

19 Q. First of all, sir, do you recognise that document and have you

20 attached your initials to it?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. All right. Now, just so that we can orient ourselves in relation

23 to what this document is, at the top of the photograph we see the word

24 "watchtower," and just below it we see an area called "sport field," I

25 believe; is that correct?

Page 8955

1 A. That's right.

2 Q. Yes. And just so that we're clear, that is the same sport field

3 as shown on the bottom right-hand corner of the previous exhibit?

4 A. That's right.

5 Q. All right. So we're really looking at this document in a -- in

6 a -- from a different viewpoint.

7 Now, can you tell us where the men were lined up in relation to

8 the document that's now on the ELMO and where the shooting was come from?

9 Can you just explain that with the pointer?

10 A. Here is the sports field and this is the tower, the tower where

11 the guards were standing. And the lines were along this line, as far as

12 that building, and the shots came from the watchtower and also from this

13 perimeter wall and the other side of it.

14 Q. And as a result of the shooting as you've described, what happened

15 to the men that were lined up in front of this watchtower?

16 A. Most of us didn't know -- didn't know what was happening, but some

17 began to stretch out on the ground because they realised that the Serbs

18 had started to kill us. And there were 97 people left killed and 157

19 wounded, and many others also died because of lack of medical care.

20 Q. How long did the shooting by the guards from the wall and the

21 watchtower, how long did that go on, sir?

22 A. There were two stages. First stage was with grenades, and then

23 the second stage was with machine-gun firing. It was about ten minutes.

24 And when they changed, their rifles changed, their cartridges, we tried to

25 hide in the corners over there. It was about ten minutes altogether.

Page 8956












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Page 8957

1 Q. Perhaps you could describe to us what you did. You were on the

2 sports field lined up in front of the watchtower as well, were you?

3 A. Yes. I was about over here.

4 Q. And you're now pointing to the right-hand corner of that rectangle

5 referred to as "sports field," for the record. Yes?

6 A. Then I went in this direction near block C and down to the sports

7 complex here with a few -- a couple of friends.

8 Q. How were you able to leave this area where the shooting was going

9 on? How were you able to escape?

10 A. Because of my experience in the Yugoslav army during military

11 service and my experience during the war as a KLA soldier, I knew that

12 when cartridges are changes -- when cartridges are changed, there's a

13 small gap, and I used that gap to escape to other parts.

14 Q. All right. Now, did the shooting resume during that lull that you

15 talked about while cartridges were being changed? Did they start shooting

16 again?

17 A. They started again but at random.

18 Q. All right. And where were they shooting from when they started

19 again?

20 A. From the same direction but also from the other watchtowers that

21 were situated at the other corners of the prison complex and which you

22 can't see on this photograph.

23 Q. All right. Where did you go? You've told us you went to --

24 towards C block and then you eventually ended up in an area that I can't

25 read on the photograph. What block -- where did you go? There's a

Page 8958

1 building marked "Theatre," and you went down below that, did you?

2 A. Went in the direction of C block, and then there's a paved road by

3 the theatre, and I reached the enclosed sports hall marked "gym."

4 Q. I see. You went to the gym. Did you see where any of the other

5 prisoners that survived, did you see what they did?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Where did they go?

8 A. We all escaped in different directions among these buildings which

9 were used as kind of shields from the firing from the watchtowers that

10 were on all four sides. So we hid behind the buildings.

11 Q. How long did you hide? You say this started at about 5.30 to 6.30

12 in the morning of the 22nd of May. After this incident of shooting, what

13 did you do for the balance of the day?

14 A. We helped wounded prisoners, and round about 1.00 to 2.00, we went

15 to the scene of what had happened and we lined up the dead bodies and we

16 took away several others who were lying wounded.

17 Q. Do you know how many people were killed during that shooting

18 incident in the early morning hours of the 22nd of May?

19 A. At this time, a total of 97 were killed according to my friend who

20 counted them, and these included prisoners who had been convicted for

21 common crimes.

22 JUDGE KWON: Before we go further, Mr. Ryneveld.

23 MR. RYNEVELD: Yes, Your Honour.

24 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Krasniqi, you say you were able to notice a small

25 gap during which the cartridges were being changed; is that right? Then

Page 8959

1 does it mean that there was only one person who was shooting at you at

2 that time? From the watchtower.

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. We were a big group, and we all

4 knew each other because we came from the same area. And when the

5 cartridges were being changed, we shouted to each other and said, "You've

6 got time. Move." And so from my -- on the basis of my experience, I knew

7 that I had time to escape during that short interval.

8 JUDGE KWON: To your memory, how many people, how many persons

9 were shooting against you, to your group?

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was very hard for us to see all

11 of them who were shooting. But in the watchtower there was one older

12 guard and two on either side of him. And from the gaps opened by the NATO

13 bombings, you could see the barrels of automatic rifles pointing at us.

14 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.

15 MR. RYNEVELD: If I may just follow up on that.

16 Q. Are you able, sir, to give an estimate as to how many people in

17 total would have been shooting at you? Was it a single source? Was it

18 three? Was it 15? Are you able to give us a rough estimate of the number

19 of people who were firing at the prisoners?

20 A. Must have been about 20 if not more, because during the night when

21 we slept on the open sports field, we heard a tractor moving in that area

22 and no doubt it brought ammunition. And there was one fire, one shell

23 from a Zolja which landed in the region by the theatre, and we heard a

24 voice in Serbian saying, "Don't fire any more."

25 Q. This Zolja you're referring to, is that a type of a weapon?

Page 8960

1 A. A Zolja is a kind of weapon which has the form of -- resembles a

2 hand-held rocket launcher. I don't know what other meaning it has.

3 Q. Yes. All right, sir. Now, you've told us that you and a number

4 of prisoners hid. Can you tell us, did you -- did you hide overnight, or

5 what happened the following day?

6 A. During the night, about 315 prisoners, that's some of us, spent

7 the night in C block which had been the isolation block and had been

8 bombed, and the remainder stayed in the basement of the kitchen. And

9 during the night, we organised some self-defence because we were scared

10 that worse might happen and we might be massacred at close range. So we

11 prepared various things that we found there, and from these resources we

12 prepared some self-defence. So we got bed legs and window frames, ropes,

13 scythes, and got these ready for the morning. And at about 5.30 in the

14 morning, a group came in, a group of Serbs from the army, the police,

15 paramilitaries, from different formations, and they started to open the

16 drains that were used for sewage, and they threw in grenades down those

17 manholes and shot those who had taken shelter there and sometimes shooting

18 them in the back.

19 And then they got to the kitchen and also started throwing hand

20 grenades into the kitchen. And after awhile they forced these people to

21 surrender, to put their hands behind their heads and to come to the sports

22 hall.

23 Then they sent two prisoners to C block who told us that we had to

24 surrender within 15 minutes.

25 Q. Now, these people that were in the drains and in the kitchen, were

Page 8961

1 these some of the prisoners who had earlier been on the sports field when

2 they had been fired upon?

3 A. The same people who had been lined up, we split up 315 to C block

4 and the remainder over here to the kitchen to take shelter during the

5 night. So these were the same people.

6 Q. So the effect of the grenades being thrown in and these people

7 being shot, were more people killed to your knowledge as a result of this

8 action of the early morning hours of the 23rd of May, 1999? Did these

9 people die from that?

10 A. Several people died from these grenades. Several people in the

11 basement of the theatre where 22 people had been hiding. It's a very

12 elaborate cellar area which was used for plumbing and for the -- there was

13 a boiler room and there was piping for heating. And of these 22 people,

14 nine people were executed at close range, stood up against a wall. And

15 one of these people I knew. His name was Zef Kciraj and Hile Kciraj, had

16 been in the same cell as myself.

17 Q. Sir, after this incident -- well, perhaps -- you left off telling

18 us that you were given a certain amount of time to surrender. Did the

19 prisoners in fact surrender and if so where were you taken and what

20 happened?

21 A. From C block they sent two prisoners from the kitchen to C block

22 telling us to surrender and to come with our hands behind our heads to the

23 sports hall where we were all rounded up together.

24 Q. And once you were all rounded up, were you told anything by

25 anyone?

Page 8962

1 A. We were all rounded up in the sports hall and then some Serbian

2 journalists came, and a Greek journalist. I don't know which television

3 station or news agency he came from. And they counted the bodies and said

4 that this is what NATO had done.

5 Q. I'm sorry. What bodies were being counted by whom and who said

6 this is what NATO had done? Perhaps you could take that in steps. I

7 understand there's a sort of press conference for some Serbian journalists

8 and a Greek journalist. So far correct? First of all, can you tell us

9 how many bodies? How many people had died?

10 A. That's right.

11 Q. Could you tell us, sir, if you know, how many people had died as a

12 result of both the shooting on the sports field and the incident the next

13 morning when they were flushing people out of drains and out of the

14 kitchen?

15 A. About 153 people were killed in the shooting.

16 Q. Now, at this news conference, for lack of a better phrase, who

17 indicated that this is what NATO had done?

18 A. The Serbian policemen and guards who had come with them.

19 Q. And were these bodies, i.e., the people from the sports field and

20 people killed the following morning, were they seen by these journalists?

21 A. They -- everybody saw them that day. That's on the 23rd.

22 Q. All right. Now, the following day, sir, the 24th of May, 1999,

23 what happened to you? Where did you go?

24 A. After that, they enclosed us in the sports hall and said that they

25 would take us to Smrekovnica Prison near Mitrovica or to Lipjan Prison.

Page 8963

1 And the next morning, 6.00 in the morning, they lined us up and put us

2 into eight buses with the wounded in four trucks, and they sent us off to

3 the village of Dubrava which near Istog and then on to Lipjan.

4 Q. And you served the balance of your sentence at Lipjan; is that

5 correct?

6 A. We stayed 17 days in all in Lipjan, until 10th of June, when NATO

7 started to enter Kosova, according to the agreement. And in June, they

8 took us to Nis Prison where I stayed a further three months.

9 Q. All right, sir. Now, did you personally know any of the people

10 that were killed by the Serb forces either on the sports field or the

11 following morning when they were throwing grenades into the drains and

12 shooting into the kitchen and basement? Did you know any of the people

13 who were killed?

14 A. Yes, I knew several of them.

15 Q. Are you by memory able to tell us some of the names of the people

16 that were killed or would it assist you -- would you recognise names on a

17 list as to some of those people? Are you able to remember by -- without

18 looking at a list?

19 A. I can remember more surnames than first names. It would be a

20 great help if I did have a list.

21 MR. RYNEVELD: Your Honours, I have a blank list that I propose to

22 show and ask the witness whether he recognises any of the names of the

23 people that he knows who have been killed.

24 JUDGE MAY: What is the list?

25 MR. RYNEVELD: The list is the same list as in Schedule J.

Page 8964

1 JUDGE MAY: It's going to be proved by somebody else, is it?

2 MR. RYNEVELD: I'm simply ask this witness as to how many names

3 that he knows from this list.

4 JUDGE MAY: I know.

5 MR. RYNEVELD: Perhaps I'll do it this way. I'll ask him to go by

6 memory.


8 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you.

9 Q. Now I understand, sir, that you don't know all the first names.

10 Can you tell us from memory how many of these names that you recall of

11 people that were killed by the Serb forces on the 22nd and 23rd of May,

12 1999?

13 A. I can remember -- the following people were killed by NATO: Fadil

14 Bezeraj from Rasic near Peja.

15 Q. Sir, I understand you know those names. I'm now asking you to

16 tell us the names of the people who were not killed by NATO, the people

17 that were killed as a result of the Serb forces. I appreciate that you

18 also know the names of the people who died from -- by NATO, but that's not

19 my question at the moment.

20 A. The -- Sahit Ibrahimaj from Kotradiq in Peja municipality was

21 killed by Serbian forces and also Agim Elshani from the town of Klina,

22 Zahir Agushi from the town of Klina. Zek Hasan Metaj from the village of

23 Strelce in Decan municipality. Iber Gogaci from the village of Kosuriq

24 near Peja. And there were various other names that have slipped my mind

25 at the moment.

Page 8965












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Page 8966

1 Q. Thank you.

2 MR. RYNEVELD: Your Honours, I don't -- didn't intend this to be a

3 memory test for the witness. I would propose to show him a list and ask

4 whether he recognises any names unless Your Honours feel that would be

5 inappropriate to do so.

6 JUDGE MAY: The only point is that clearly these matters are going

7 to be disputed. How do the Prosecution propose to prove the number of

8 people who were killed.

9 MR. RYNEVELD: There will be other witnesses as well who are going

10 to testify as to what they say and will be adding other names to this

11 process, Your Honour.

12 JUDGE MAY: Show him the list.

13 MR. RYNEVELD: Actually, the list I want to put on?

14 A. Zahir Agushi.

15 Q. That's somebody you mentioned already?

16 A. Yes. Avni Gashi.

17 Q. Right.

18 A. Zef Kciraj.

19 Q. That's somebody you mentioned earlier in your evidence before you

20 were shown the list.

21 A. Valentin Nikoll Bibaj. Dervish Sylaj.

22 Q. Are those the names that you recognise, sir?

23 A. These are people that I knew personally.

24 Q. Thank you.

25 MR. RYNEVELD: I believe those are my questions at this time.

Page 8967

1 Thank you, Your Honours.

2 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Milosevic.

3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] There is manipulation here today and

4 yesterday about tapes of an alleged execution that obviously did not take

5 police and, Mr. May, you denied me the opportunity to respond to such

6 manipulation.

7 JUDGE MAY: Do you wish to ask this witness any questions or not?

8 If you do, you should cross-examine him.

9 Cross-examined by Mr. Milosevic:

10 Q. [Interpretation] You claim you were arrested on the 11th of

11 September, 1998. Is this true?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. You were sentenced to 12 months imprisonment. Is that true?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. What were you sentenced for, for what criminal act?

16 A. I was sentenced according to the penal law 125 of the Criminal

17 Code.

18 Q. During the examination-in-chief, you said that you were sentenced

19 as an alleged member of the KLA, and from the information which you

20 provided yourself, is it true not only that you were a member of the KLA

21 but also the commander of the headquarters for Barane? Is that true?

22 A. I was commander at the military base in Gorak [phoen] barracks

23 there.

24 Q. Very well. So it cannot be said that you were sentenced because

25 of something that you allegedly were but because of something that you

Page 8968

1 actually were. As a member and a commander of the KLA staff, did you

2 organ participate in terrorist acts against our forces, soldiers, police

3 officers, and civilians?

4 A. I didn't take part in any activities of the KLA. I was in the

5 military barracks, and I assisted in the logistics for the KLA and in

6 training cadets.

7 Q. So as commander of the KLA headquarters in Barane were not

8 involved in KLA activities. You did not take part in any fighting. Is

9 that what you are trying to say?

10 A. I didn't take part in any fighting. I was only involved in

11 training new young cadets.

12 Q. So you trained the newly recruited members of the KLA. Was that

13 your job?

14 A. Yes, that's true.

15 Q. Out of those people that you trained, how many of them took part

16 in the killings of soldiers, police officers, and civilians?

17 A. Some of them were involved in organised actions, activities. Some

18 of them were guards. Some were in the barracks.

19 Q. And how many of them lost their lives in these actions that you

20 mention?

21 A. None of my soldiers lost their lives in actions.

22 Q. When you were released from prison, was that exactly at the point

23 when you had served your 12-month sentence?

24 A. I don't really understand your question.

25 Q. When were you released from prison? What date were you released?

Page 8969

1 A. On the 11th of September, 1999, from Nis Prison.

2 Q. Since you were arrested on the 11th of September, 1998, that means

3 that you spent one year in prison exactly to the day, which was the amount

4 of your sentence. Is this true?

5 A. Yes, that's true.

6 Q. Do you think that you were severely sentenced for that act since

7 the punishment for that act that you were convicted of can be up to 15

8 years, but you were sentenced just to one year.

9 A. Investigating judge, judges, were not able to go to the site to

10 collect information, where I was and where the members of the KLA were.

11 So we were convicted of collaboration with the KLA and of being members of

12 the LDK, of the Democratic League of Kosova.

13 Q. Are you saying that they were not able to prove all of the things

14 that you actually committed? Is this true?

15 A. They didn't have any proof.

16 Q. But you can see here that these proofs are now obvious. Can you

17 tell me how many projectiles NATO fired on the Dubrava Prison on the 19th

18 of May? Do you remember?

19 A. Altogether four projectiles.

20 Q. I'm asking about the 19th of May, 2002 [As interpreted]. That was

21 the first day that the prison was bombed?

22 JUDGE MAY: No. There's been a mistranslation. It must have been

23 1999. Or a misreference. Yes. Let's go on.

24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes. Yes, of course. 1999.

25 Perhaps it was my mistake. Maybe I said 2002. Perhaps the translation is

Page 8970

1 not mistaken, but in any case, we all know what I mean.

2 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

3 Q. So may I have an answer?

4 A. As I said, there were four projectiles altogether.

5 Q. Do you remember how many people lost their lives on that occasion?

6 A. Three people lost their lives and over 15 were injured.

7 Q. Can you explain to me how you as an inmate in prison, which as we

8 could see in this diagram is quite a large prison, can know precise

9 information about the killed, the wounded, and so on? How did you have

10 the possibility to see all this, to find out, to hear, and to count

11 everything?

12 A. I have a bit of experience, ten years of experience with the

13 Democratic League of Kosova, from 1991 on, and I have education to be able

14 to count.

15 Q. I don't know if my question is clear to you. You're a prisoner.

16 How were you able to freely move about the prison, to count, and to

17 determine exactly what was going on in the prison? Does that mean that

18 you could move freely throughout the entire prison and find out about all

19 of these things that we're talking about now?

20 A. After the bombing, we were able to move around throughout the

21 prison, just not near to the walls because there was an order which said

22 that anyone who got too close to the wall would be shot. But within the

23 walls, we would move freely or semi-freely. And then there we had contact

24 with all the prisoners and could find about -- all the prisoners told

25 about their friends and what had happened to their friends and relatives

Page 8971

1 and people around them.

2 Q. Very well. On page four, passage 3, you said that the guards told

3 the other prisoners to help the other prisoners who were in block C. Is

4 this true?

5 A. This only happened on the 19th, when the guards fled from C block

6 and told the other prisoners to help their fellow inmates.

7 Q. So what was the substance of this help?

8 A. We were -- only that those of us who were in isolation could go

9 out and move freely like the others.

10 Q. So only the people who were in isolation were able to move about.

11 Did I understand you properly or is this something about this transcript

12 that is not quite right?

13 A. Those who were out in freedom could move more freely than we

14 could, but then when we were released from isolation, we could wander

15 around the complex freely like them.

16 Q. Do you know how many bombs hit on the 21st of May, which as you

17 claim was quite extensive?

18 A. I know of 24 projectiles.

19 Q. How many bombs were thrown?

20 A. You do not understand what I said. I said 24 projectiles.

21 Q. Very well. You say in your statement: "Two days later on the

22 21st of May the prison was again bombed. It started around 10.30 a.m.

23 The guardians told the prisoners to leave the cell blocks and to remain

24 outside in the open spaces. The guardians then left and went outside the

25 compound again.

Page 8972

1 "I could see the planes above the prison and see the bombs and

2 rockets come from them. Buildings were hit and the bombs and rockets hit

3 the concrete areas. Large lumps of concrete were flung into the air. One

4 bomb fell on the concrete about 25 metres from the theatre and 16

5 prisoners were killed immediately by the explosion and the falling

6 concrete. They had been in the area between the theatre."

7 And then you speak about how you wrote the word "Help" on the

8 ground and then you continue.

9 "The bombing lasted all day into the evening with a break between

10 2.00 p.m. to 4.00 p.m. Then bombing resumed for an hour until 5.00 p.m.,"

11 and so on.

12 And then you say: "Approximately 24 bombs fell." So the

13 bombardment lasted all day, and you were counting precisely and determined

14 there were 24 bombs. Is this right?

15 A. Yes. That's right.

16 Q. And it is also true then that the guards of the prison, at the

17 start of the bombardment that day, released all the prisoners from the

18 cells and allowed them to be out in the open in order to protect

19 themselves? Is this true?

20 A. As I showed on this picture, we were staying in this prison yard

21 that is in the centre of the complex. And when the bombing started, one

22 bomb fell on the asphalt near the theatre, and there were great chunks of

23 concrete that flew in the air. And there were some people who were struck

24 by these lumps of concrete. And 16 were killed and then three died later,

25 making 19 in all.

Page 8973

1 Q. Very well. You're talking about those who were killed outside.

2 Do you know how many prisoners remained within the prison compound during

3 the NATO bombardment of the prison? And how many of them were killed

4 inside the compound buildings, not those who were killed outside?

5 A. In the prison buildings, only four were killed. In the reception

6 block where there were 167 prisoners from Gjakove who were taken hostage,

7 and then at the entrance gate there were four killed. So if you add them

8 together, they make 19.

9 Q. What hostages? I don't understand. You're bringing in something

10 new. Who was kept as a hostage?

11 A. On the 16th of May, two buses came from Gjakove filled with

12 people, civilians, who had been taken hostages in the town. They were

13 taken from their shops and houses all over the city and brought to

14 Dubrava. And as you yourself know, there was more than 1.000 people who

15 were convicted.

16 Q. The number of inmates is not something I'm asking you about right

17 now. I'm asking you what hostages are you talking about in the prison? I

18 understand the people who were under investigation or people who were

19 sentenced. What are these hostages that you are talking about in the

20 prison? How can you have hostages in prison?

21 A. As I said, they were taken from the town. They were separated

22 from their families. Their families were sent to Albania. And these

23 people were brought to Dubrava. They were not even indicted. They were

24 only charged and sentenced after the war was over.

25 JUDGE KWON: Just a second, Mr. Milosevic.

Page 8974












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Page 8975

1 Mr. Krasniqi, I don't understand the number 19. You said 16

2 people died outside and you said also there are four people who died

3 inside the prison building. That will make 20. Could you clarify that.

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In all there were 19 killed,

5 including those four. And then the number rose. One died on the way to

6 the hospital in Peja. There were two others who were wounded that day and

7 who are considered missing.

8 JUDGE KWON: Let's concentrate on the events which happened on the

9 21st. You mentioned 16 persons. Are they ones who died outside because

10 of the bombing in the prison yard?

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

12 JUDGE KWON: And apart from them, there are four persons who died,

13 who were killed inside the prison building; is that right?

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As I said, these four of what we

15 called the group from Gjakove, they were killed by the door of what we

16 call the reception block. And then the bomb fell here, and these other

17 prisoners were killed here in the yard. So in all, they make 19. So if

18 you add them together, it makes 19.

19 JUDGE KWON: You said that there are three persons who died on

20 19th of May at the first bombing. So 16 plus three makes 19, and plus

21 four makes 23. Is that your mathematics.

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Twenty-three were killed altogether

23 by NATO bombing on the two different occasions.

24 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. Milosevic.

25 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Page 8976

1 Q. Do you know that the deputy prison warden was killed on that

2 occasion, also an Albanian, Nexhmedin Kalcadinaj. And also Katanja

3 Repanovic was injured, Radomir Dobric an instructor, an electrician,

4 Zvonko Djurovic, a driver, Milos Rajic. They were all killed or wounded.

5 Did you know about that?

6 A. I have heard from several former prisoners who were on work

7 details outside the prison. I've heard from them that seven Serbs were

8 killed and also that some Albanians were killed by Serbs in order to

9 obliterate the evidence of the crime.

10 Q. All right. That is part of your story, not a fact.

11 Tell me, during the bombing, was part of the outside wall of the

12 prison destroyed? Yes or no.

13 A. Only part of the sports hall where the Serbs committed these

14 crimes. Only part of this was destroyed.

15 Q. I am asking you whether part of the outside wall of the prison was

16 destroyed. Did a NATO rocket hit part of the outside wall of the prison

17 and destroy it?

18 A. The wall was not fully destroyed in any part of it.

19 JUDGE MAY: Just try and concentrate on the question. Was part of

20 the wall destroyed or damaged?

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There was only a hole about 50

22 centimetres square.

23 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

24 Q. All right. Give me an answer before I ask you about these 50 or

25 15 square centimetres. How many prisoners tried to flee from the prison

Page 8977

1 through that hole on that occasion?

2 A. A small number of people tried, but they were not able.

3 Q. Could you please take a look at these photographs. Let me just

4 get one out first. You say that that is 15 square centimetres, part of

5 the prison wall. That's what you said. And then the others, you can show

6 all of them one after the other. Please do so.

7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Please put them on the ELMO. You

8 don't have to give them to him. Just put them on the ELMO one after the

9 other. First the one with the wall.

10 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

11 Q. Now, take a look at this. Just a minute. I can't see it here.

12 Ah, yes. Right.

13 As you can see, part of the outside wall of the prison was hit,

14 and a bus can go through that. It's not 15 centimetres. Do you think

15 this was done intentionally because there were terrorists like you who

16 were in prison? Was this done in order to make it possible for them to

17 escape?

18 JUDGE MAY: The first question, the first question is this for the

19 witness: Look at the photograph. Does it represent damage which was done

20 by the bombing.

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The photograph of the NATO complex,

22 not of the prison, Kotllana. You can see that on the earlier photograph.

23 There's 11 hectares of land there and that was broken by the NATO bombing.

24 But it wasn't part of the prison complex here. You can see that on the

25 other photograph earlier.

Page 8978

1 JUDGE MAY: Let's look at the other photographs.

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Here. The wall continues up that

3 way. About 11 hectares of land are encircled by this wall. And that's

4 where the wall was broken through by the bombing which you can see in the

5 other picture.

6 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

7 Q. Is that the outside wall of the prison?

8 JUDGE MAY: No. He said it's not the outside wall of the prison.

9 That's the point. Do you want him to look at some other pictures?

10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Please show these photographs in

11 order. Please do.

12 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

13 Q. You can see here the building at the entrance that was damaged; is

14 that right? Please go ahead. Please continue. Let's save time. Go

15 ahead. Go ahead. Let's go on. We want to have this entire set of

16 photographs shown. And they only partly show all of this. This is the

17 administration building.

18 JUDGE MAY: Just a moment. Do you recognise these buildings,

19 Mr. Krasniqi?

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I know them.

21 JUDGE MAY: What are they?

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's the directorate.

23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Let the caption be shown too,

24 please. Could you place it that way on the ELMO so that the caption can

25 also be shown? Before we saw the great damage inflicted by the bombing on

Page 8979

1 the interior. Please just continue.

2 JUDGE MAY: Let's see the caption, please. Could somebody

3 translate that for us?

4 THE INTERPRETER: "A close-up --" it says, "A close-up of the

5 point of impact of the projectile at the pavilion of the KPD Dubrava," KPD

6 meaning the house of corrections in Dubrava.

7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could you always place the

8 photographs so at that we can see the captions as well?

9 JUDGE MAY: This isn't very easy for the usher, but I hope she's

10 doing her best. I'm sure she is. You can manage? Just show the rest of

11 the photographs if you would. Yes. Let's see them on the ELMO, please.

12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Please show all the photographs.

13 Please.

14 JUDGE MAY: Yes. We'll have the caption --

15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] It's the same place. The point of

16 impact of a projectile, one of the pavilions of the KPD Dubrava. Please

17 go ahead.

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This was --

19 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

20 Q. This is inside. This is a point of impact of a projectile inside

21 in the pavilion. The sky can be seen above, and also the reinforced

22 concrete, the reinforcements from inside the concrete.

23 Please go ahead. This is a pavilion where several prisoners lost

24 their lives. That's what it says down here.

25 One of the bombed facilities. Please go ahead. We have all these

Page 8980

1 photographs here, and we also have corpses that were buried under the

2 rubble.

3 This is also in one of the cells. This is also inside. Victims

4 that were halfway under the rubble or entirely underneath the rubble.

5 Please go on. Here you can also see parts of human bodies in all

6 this rubble of concrete, furniture. Please go on. Again a killed

7 prisoner in the rubble of the KP Dom Dubrava.

8 Please go on.

9 JUDGE MAY: That's it. Do you -- just -- wait a minute. I'll ask

10 the witness this: Do you recognise those scenes? It's been said that

11 those were scenes which were taken no doubt after the bombing. Do you

12 recognise them, Mr. Krasniqi, or do you want to say anything about them?

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. I also say -- want to say that

14 I recognise them. And those killed on the 22nd of May, we carried them

15 away and put them in the basement of C block, and most of these

16 photographs were taken after we were transferred to Lipjan.

17 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Milosevic, do you want those photographs

18 exhibited?

19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] By all means they should be

20 exhibited. But I should like to suggest that you take a look at them,

21 because on the overhead projector, all of it is blurred. The photographs

22 are much clearer than from you could see on the overhead projector.

23 JUDGE MAY: Very well.

24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] But I am going to ask for them when

25 I need them again for another cross-examination.

Page 8981

1 JUDGE MAY: Yes. They should be -- they should be exhibited now

2 with the next exhibit number, and we will look at them during the

3 adjournment.

4 THE REGISTRAR: They will be given Defence Exhibit 29.

5 JUDGE MAY: Can you clip them together, put them an exhibit number

6 on them, and then hand them to us.

7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Before I continue with my questions,

8 I would like to introduce another document here. I would like to exhibit

9 it. This is a record of the on-site investigation by the team from the

10 District Court in Pec headed by Judge Vladan S. Bojic at 12.45 on the 21st

11 of May. And then on the 24th of May at 1445 hours. And then on the 25th

12 of May as well. Three times they had to interrupt their on-site

13 investigation because precisely day after day there were bombings.

14 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

15 Q. So I'm asking the witness now: Here in the last part at the end

16 of the on-site investigation, it says: "From the KP Dom, a total of 93

17 corpses were carried out after all the crime investigation activities were

18 carried out, I ordered the burial of the corpses as stipulated by law. I

19 also ordered photographs to be taken before that and also the daptaloscopy

20 [phoen] of each and every corpse. I also ordered the external examination

21 of the corpses which was carried out by Dr. M. Stiljic [phoen], a general

22 surgeon employed in the hospital in Pec. The entire process went on until

23 the 26th of May until 10.00 a.m. All the identified traces of the

24 mentioned event were in keeping with the objective circumstances marked

25 and identified in the appropriate way. The documentation consists --

Page 8982

1 comprises part of this document, and it says District Court in Pec, the

2 21st, 24th, 25th, 26th of May, 1999." There is a number. There is a

3 signature of the judge.

4 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreters note that they did not have a copy

5 of this document.

6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] So this is a report concerning the

7 on-site investigation that the District Court in charge carried out in

8 relation to this crime that was committed against the prison in Dubrava by

9 the NATO pact.

10 JUDGE MAY: You are asking for that to be exhibited.

11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, yes, yes. I would like you to

12 have it.

13 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Ryneveld.

14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] It was done then when this actually

15 happened. It was done by the appropriate judicial authorities.

16 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Ryneveld.

17 MR. RYNEVELD: Your Honour, I just don't know if this is the

18 appropriate time to have this document introduced.

19 JUDGE MAY: I'm sorry to interrupt, but why not mark it for

20 identification? You can then have it, the Prosecution can look at it, and

21 if there is any objection it, you can make it.

22 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you, Your Honour. I was just going to say

23 before it's marked as a full exhibit. It doesn't assist with this witness

24 because he left on the 24th and much of this is report that were done

25 later is my point.

Page 8983












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Page 8984

1 JUDGE MAY: We're fairly broad in our Rules of Evidence, so we may

2 admit it, but subject to any objection that you want to make when you've

3 had it translated.

4 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you.


6 THE REGISTRAR: That will be given Defence Exhibit 30 marked for

7 identification.

8 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

9 Q. Do you know that during the bombing and due to the bombing --

10 JUDGE MAY: We're going to adjourn now. It's time for the

11 adjournment. We'll adjourn for 20 minutes.

12 MR. RYNEVELD: I'm sorry, Your Honour. Just before the

13 adjournment, it occurs to us that if it's at all possible, the Prosecution

14 would like to call Jacky Rowland to and have her finished if that's at all

15 possible. I don't know -- yes. And the issue that perhaps the Court may

16 want to consider during the break as to whether or not her evidence can be

17 92 bis'd.

18 JUDGE MAY: We've had an opportunity to consider that, and the

19 evidence will be admitted under 92 bis. The accused will have about half

20 an hour more, so time is rather against that. We may be able to see --

21 you may want to see whether she can come tomorrow.

22 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you, Your Honour.

23 JUDGE MAY: Thank you.

24 --- Recess taken at 12.17 p.m.

25 --- On resuming at 12.39 p.m.

Page 8985

1 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Milosevic.

2 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

3 Q. Do you know that during the bombing 196 inmates were wounded

4 likely or more seriously?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Do you know that about 40 of them were in a life-threatening

7 state?

8 A. Yes, were wounded.

9 Q. Do you remember if any representatives of the authorities, the

10 Yugoslav authorities or of the Republic of Serbia, toured the location on

11 that day when the bombing occurred?

12 A. What date are you talking about?

13 Q. The 21st of May?

14 A. No. No one was there on that date.

15 Q. Do you know that the same day the Dubrava Prison was visited by

16 local and international press people? What day was that according to you?

17 A. That was on the 23rd.

18 Q. The 23rd. So the prison was toured after that alleged attack by

19 the guards against the prisoners. Is that true?

20 A. Yes. After they put us into the gymnasium, Serb journalists and

21 one Greek journalist came, but we didn't see them.

22 Q. So after they did all of the things you said they did, they

23 brought local and international journalists and also the representatives

24 of the authorities also came and toured the prison. Is that true?

25 A. I don't know anything about government representatives. I just

Page 8986

1 know about the journalists and about prison personnel who were in the

2 prison.

3 Q. You say that on the next day, the 22nd of May, at one point you

4 found yourself outside of the prison walls. Is that true?

5 A. But within the complex. Not outside the external walls.

6 Q. Very well. You said that on that occasion, you recognised one of

7 the Serb inmates who was a refugee from Albania whose name was Dritan

8 Matanaj, which is an Albanian name, and who changed his name to Svetlan

9 Matanovic. Is this true?

10 A. I had known him earlier, but before the 22nd of May, the Serbs

11 armed him.

12 Q. How did you know what his name was, that he was a refugee from

13 Albania, that he changed his name? How do you know all of this

14 information?

15 A. I had spoken to him several times, because he was sentenced for

16 criminal activities in Decan, in this town of Decan. Everyone knew him.

17 Q. Why were you outside the prison walls? Did you try to escape?

18 A. I didn't say that we were outside the prison walls. We were

19 outside of our cells but within the prison complex.

20 Q. That's what it states in your statement, but let's not waste time

21 on that now.

22 How many prisoners tried to escape from the prison?

23 A. A very small number, but they were not successful in their

24 attempt.

25 Q. How were they prevented?

Page 8987

1 A. From the hole we talked about earlier, which was caused by the

2 NATO bombing, through that hole in the wall.

3 Q. You said that this was from -- the size of the hole was from 15 to

4 50 square centimetres.

5 A. 50 centimetres, not 15, because 50 you can get through. There was

6 a wall with bricks, and you could take some of the bricks -- they could

7 take some of the bricks out and make it bigger.

8 Q. All right. Ten by ten centimetres gives 100 square centimetres.

9 So I don't know if anybody can pass through a hole like that, through one

10 square decametre.

11 A. Through 50 square centimetres you could get through.

12 Q. Yes. Was there bombing by NATO on the 22nd of May of the Dubrava

13 Prison?

14 A. No. The day before, on the 21st.

15 Q. Do you know that over 90 bodies of killed prisoners were pulled

16 out from the rubble of the prison buildings?

17 A. We left for the prison in Lipjan, and they could of course do

18 anything they wanted, stage anything they wanted after that because we

19 couldn't see it.

20 Q. But you claim that you saw and that is quite enough. Do you know

21 that another 90 prisoners were killed in -- died in hospitals in

22 subsequent days as a direct consequence of the NATO bombing of the prison?

23 A. I only know of one prisoner who died in hospital, and that was on

24 the 19th of May.

25 Q. All right. So in spite of your description about the bombing

Page 8988

1 which lasted over several days giving the impression that the prison

2 buildings were practically razed to the ground, you still claim that the

3 prisoners were killed by the prison guards. How is this possible? Why

4 are you not speaking the truth?

5 A. If you could show the photograph once again of the complex,

6 please.

7 Q. We don't have time now to look at those photographs. Our time is

8 limited.

9 JUDGE MAY: Let him explain. You've put to him he's lying, so he

10 should have the opportunity to explain.

11 Yes?

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] During the bombing on the 21st, we

13 were here in the yard, around the complex. One witness -- or one

14 prisoner, rather, was on the sports field, and he said, "Come on over this

15 way to the sports field because we're going to bomb the buildings." So

16 all of us, we ran through the buildings -- between the buildings and came

17 down to the sports field, and that's how we survived the bombing.

18 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

19 Q. All right. In spite of this bombing which went on for several

20 days and a large number of victims, and in spite of your claim that this

21 was not a consequence of the NATO bombing but an act committed by the

22 guards, you have just described that you were showered by hand grenades,

23 fire from automatic rifles, a bazooka, and so on. And then they suddenly

24 gave up on their intention to kill you. And you also claim that you, even

25 though through the efforts of Judge Kwon you stated that about 20 people

Page 8989

1 were firing, you used the opportunity while they were changing their

2 cartridges to run away. As an instructor of the KLA terrorists, you know

3 that if 20 people are firing at the same time, even if they are ordered to

4 do so, they would not be able to replace their ammunition at the same

5 time. Isn't this true? Why did you make this up?

6 A. I know that according to military regulations soldiers are

7 supposed to listen to their officers, listen to the orders given to them

8 their officers.

9 Q. All right. If that is your explanation, then that is quite

10 sufficient.

11 Could you please tell me, how is it possible? Your description of

12 the events is that they tried with all of those automatic weapons, and the

13 bazooka and the hand grenades, they were trying to kill you, and then

14 after that 800 of you are driven by buses and trucks to a different prison

15 or to different prisons. You are evacuated in order to save you.

16 What prevented them from killing you if they had the intention of

17 killing you? You didn't run away. Isn't that right? You stayed there.

18 They gathered you up again and then they moved you to a different place in

19 buses and trucks. Is that true?

20 A. We were at the sports field and then the soldiers and the

21 paramilitaries came in and told us that -- they told us that there was

22 a -- that there had been a catastrophe.

23 Q. And while being seen by those soldiers and the police officers and

24 the prison guards, you burned your own documents at your own initiative,

25 allegedly so that you would not be beaten because you had documents on

Page 8990

1 you. Is that what you're claiming?

2 A. This was so that documents would not be found on us in Serbia and

3 so that we would be identified as having been convicted.

4 Q. If you were being taken to prison, then it's an assumption that

5 you were convicted. There must have been some records about you or do you

6 think that there were no records and that it was only a question of your

7 own personal documents?

8 A. Nobody asked whether we were convicted or not convicted. Any

9 Albanian was a terrorist. And this was -- and the guards and the soldiers

10 transferred whom they wanted.

11 Q. All right. I wasn't asking you that. Can you please tell me, at

12 the end of the NATO bombing, did any prison buildings remain standing or

13 were they all destroyed in the bombing?

14 A. Only the sports hall was left. And also, as you can see in the

15 photograph, it was destroyed in the -- in the school room and the library.

16 It was demolished by the Serbs themselves who threw hand grenades in.

17 Q. Very well. Can you please tell me now if on the 24th of May the

18 prison warden and a few guards came to the prisoners and brought you

19 water, cartons of cigarettes, food, and so on? You say that on page 7 in

20 paragraph 4. Is that true?

21 A. No. This was not right. This happened on the 23rd. And they

22 gave us cigarettes in the name of a certain Miki who was the head of the

23 prison.

24 Q. And what was the day on which they, as you say, were killing you?

25 A. They lined us up on the 22nd.

Page 8991

1 Q. So the day before they were ruthlessly killing you, and the next

2 day they brought you cigarettes, food, and informed you that you would be

3 evacuated. Is that what you're claiming?

4 A. That was their job, and that is still their job today.

5 Q. Do you remember, since you were keeping a record as if you were

6 the prison warden, how many prisoners in total were transported in trucks

7 and buses? You said eight buses and four trucks. The number is not

8 important, the number of buses and trucks, but how many prisoners were

9 transported, evacuated?

10 A. I said eight buses and four trucks, and beyond that I can't speak

11 with any authority.

12 Q. All right. According to a report or information about the NATO

13 attack by the Ministry of Justice which is responsible for the prisoners,

14 so I have information that 800 of you were evacuated to other prisons. Is

15 that the figure approximately or not?

16 A. Approximately. Seven hundred and seventy is my number.

17 Q. And four days later, another 24 persons were brought to the

18 Dubrava and Lipjan Prison.

19 A. That's a mistake. They brought 24 more to Lipjan, but after that

20 we didn't see them at all, and these people are now counted missing.

21 Q. And this evacuation from the location that was bombed, did that

22 save the lives of many prisoners? Eight hundred of you were evacuated to

23 other prisons. So yes or no?

24 A. Could you put that question again?

25 Q. I am asking you whether the evacuation, you were evacuated in

Page 8992












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13 English transcripts.













Page 8993

1 these eight buses and four trucks and so on, did that evacuation save your

2 lives, the lives of those 800 prisoners?

3 A. There were two possibilities, because there were -- you could no

4 longer stay in the complex because there was no water, there was no food,

5 and everything was rendered unusable, and that's why they sent us to

6 Lipjan.

7 Q. Do you know that the prison was bombed after the 24th of May,

8 after you were evacuated?

9 A. I don't know about that. After the 24th, I don't know.

10 Q. In the examination-in-chief, you explained that anti-aircraft

11 defence fired shots in order to provoke the NATO aeroplanes. Is that what

12 you said?

13 A. I said that they did indeed provoke the NATO aircraft from outside

14 the prison walls.

15 Q. Do you consider it a provocation if somebody fires at fighting

16 aircraft, in this case of a foreign power, that is attacking your country?

17 And if they are defending themselves and using anti-aircraft weapons, do

18 you consider that could be a provocation?

19 A. There were plenty of places they could have carried out this

20 provocation rather than by a prison, and the intention was to attract NATO

21 to kill us.

22 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Milosevic, time is coming to an end. Two more

23 questions if you want to ask them.

24 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

25 Q. This twisted logic of yours that anti-aircraft defence from NATO

Page 8994

1 aggression constitutes a provocation and this tale of yours that during

2 the several days of bombing by NATO which you yourself partially

3 described, the victims were not caused by NATO bombing but allegedly by

4 the acts of the guards, the very guards who actually saved you by

5 evacuating you from that place, 800 of you?

6 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Milosevic, this is a speech. You've already put

7 that question.

8 Now, Mr. Tapuskovic, do you have some questions?

9 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours. Indeed

10 I do have a few questions.

11 Questioned by Mr. Tapuskovic:

12 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Krasniqi, in your statement that you gave

13 before, you said that you had been arrested while driving together with

14 your family towards Rozaje, and today you said that was not correct, that

15 as a matter of fact, you were ambushed. Can you explain this ambush to

16 us, what kind of an ambush this was? Were you armed at the moment you

17 were ambushed or were you in any kind of action related to KLA activity?

18 Could you explain all of that to us, please?

19 A. I didn't say that I was armed during an ambush. I said I was with

20 my family. There were collaborators working, Albanian collaborators who

21 were working for Serbia, who were involved, and that's what I would call

22 an ambush or a trap.

23 Q. Are you trying to say that it was some other Albanians who had

24 prepared your arrest?

25 A. Yes, exactly. They were Albanian -- they were Albanians who were

Page 8995

1 working for the Serbs.

2 Q. You said today that the Serb authorities had information that you

3 were a commander. Is that right?

4 A. Among those who organised this ambush, there were people who did

5 have such information, yes.

6 Q. You really were a commander, weren't you?

7 A. Not from the 1st of September on. I returned to my profession as

8 a schoolteacher and worked as a schoolteacher.

9 Q. All right. But for a while you were a commander. And the

10 proceedings that took place against you, you said earlier on over here

11 that you did not admit in these proceedings that you had been a commander,

12 that you only admitted to having been a member of the KLA and that is why

13 you were sentenced to one year in prison only.

14 A. The Ministry of the Interior was aware of everything I had done,

15 where as the legal authorities at the trial remained silent on that.

16 Otherwise, I wouldn't be alive today.

17 Q. In other words, you were sentenced only on account of what you

18 admitted. You did not admit to that which was higher, so to speak.

19 A. I didn't admit anything.

20 Q. No. I have to point out to you that you said here on page 1 of

21 your statement, paragraph 9, you said that you did admit to being a member

22 of the KLA but not that you were a commander. That's what you did say in

23 your statement earlier on.

24 A. Laws in Serbia are quite elastic. They asked me during the

25 investigation what I had done. I accepted that I had been working for the

Page 8996

1 KLA, but the investigators remained silent on that point.

2 Q. Mr. Krasniqi, can you just give me brief answers to my questions.

3 You said awhile ago that in that prison in Dubrava there were about 1.000

4 Albanians for the most part, or was it Albanians only?

5 A. They were mostly Albanians. There were very few who were Serbs.

6 Seven or eight.

7 Q. Can you give a rough estimate at least of how many Serbs there

8 were? Oh, yes. I see. Thank you.

9 Out of these Albanians who were in prison, were most of them

10 members of the KLA?

11 A. A very small part of them.

12 Q. Well, yesterday or, as a matter of fact, today, you said that

13 there were cases when people were beaten. But before the 21st of May,

14 were any Albanians endangered in such a way that their actual lives were

15 in danger? Was there a single Albanian who had lost his or her life

16 before the 21st of May?

17 A. Well, that's the reason why I didn't admit for having worked for

18 the KLA, because I knew I would have been killed. I would have been

19 murder.

20 Q. I asked you whether anybody was killed in prison before the

21 21st -- or the 19th of May, rather. That is my question. And all of

22 these men were ethnic Albanians.

23 A. Deaths, no, but there were all different types of mistreatments

24 and mishandling.

25 Q. Was anybody killed after being transferred to prisons in Serbia?

Page 8997

1 You were transferred to Pozarevac. Further on in these prisons were any

2 of these Albanians killed?

3 A. There certainly were people killed, but I don't know of any names

4 because it was earlier.

5 Q. In prison? You know that somebody was killed while you were in

6 prison?

7 A. I heard that people had been killed at the prison in Nis.

8 Q. Which prison in Nis? Do you know the name? You didn't refer to

9 that earlier at all.

10 A. KP Dom Nis.

11 Q. Thank you. What I'm interested in in relation to your statement

12 is the following: The day when you were told that you would be

13 transferred to the prison in Nis, you said earlier on: "Some prisoners

14 who came from Nis said that we should burn or destroy," that's what you

15 said today, "our personal documents." And then you explained why this was

16 necessary.

17 So this was an agreement reached amongst you yourselves, the

18 prisoners. That is what the prisoners had suggested.

19 A. Yes, because of the bitter experience that they had had there.

20 Q. And you burned that? How could you get fire in a prison and how

21 could you burn documents? That is one question.

22 A. There were prisoners, ordinary prisoners, who had been accused,

23 who had been sentenced for ordinary crimes. They had small tools. They

24 had pencils. They had razors, radios, lighters.

25 Q. There's no interpretation. I don't have any interpretation.

Page 8998

1 JUDGE MAY: Some of the prisoners had been sentenced for ordinary

2 crimes. They had razors, radios, and lighters.

3 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]

4 Q. Well, my question is the following: Since they were in prison,

5 how did they manage to burn documents? How could they make a fire in

6 prison when there were so many prisoners?

7 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Tapuskovic, he has explained it. He said some of

8 them had lighters. Now we really must try and move on. I don't want to

9 hurry you, but we really must try and move on. We've spent nearly two or

10 three hours with this witness.

11 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] I always hurry, and I will

12 certainly stop altogether if you tell me to do so, but I'm interested in

13 the following:

14 Q. Prisoners in prison never have any documents of their own on them.

15 They have to hand over everything they have to the prison authorities when

16 they enter prison. How come that all of them had their own documents on

17 them? Can he explain that first? Or can he explain how they managed to

18 obtain their documents if they had been taken away from them beforehand?

19 A. I had the sentence, my sentence, and that is what I burnt, the

20 document I was sentenced by. And in the accusation it said that I had

21 been accused of various crimes, and that's what I burnt.

22 Q. Thank you. I'm interested in the following: When you were taken

23 out in front of the buildings where you were staying and when you were

24 told that you would be transferred to Nis, did people accept that or did

25 they think that they should not leave Kosovo and the prison in Kosovo and

Page 8999

1 that they didn't want to go to Serbia? Was there any kind of resistance

2 in that sense?

3 A. They told us twice that we would be going to Nis. On the 22nd and

4 then on the 23rd. That's the time you mean.

5 Q. That's what I mean. But did you accept that or did you resist

6 this proposal altogether since you were supposed to be transferred to the

7 territory of Serbia proper?

8 A. We were in prison. We had no choice about the matter whether --

9 as to go or not to go. We had our hands tied.

10 Q. Thank you. The bombing that followed, as you had put it, on the

11 19th of May, but in your statement you refer to the time between the 24th

12 of March and the 21st of May, and you said that NATO aircraft, or, rather,

13 that you often saw NATO aircraft in the sky and also that there was

14 bombing around Istok. How far away is Istok from the prison? And before

15 the 19th of May, how often did you hear the area surrounding the prison

16 being bombed?

17 A. They bombed the prison, around the prison, several times but from

18 a 2 kilometre altitude and around Istog. But it is wasn't in May, as you

19 said, but it was the middle of April. There were provocations on the part

20 of Serb forces. They were using anti-aircraft equipment, weapons, to

21 shoot at the NATO aircraft.

22 Q. How many bombs fell then? Could you tell by the explosions?

23 A. On the 10th of April, Serb forces provoked NATO all day long.

24 MR. RYNEVELD: Your Honours, this may be interesting, but I wonder

25 how relevant.

Page 9000

1 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Go on, Mr. Tapuskovic. Could you kindly finish,

2 please, though, in four minutes?

3 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] I will.

4 Q. Tanks, armoured vehicles, anti-aircraft guns were in front of the

5 prison. They were not within the prison compound?

6 A. As I said, they were near Kotllana and around the directorate of

7 the prison.

8 Q. I did not understand it when you were speaking about this today.

9 You never mentioned in your statement before that NATO bombs had hit this

10 equipment, these weapons. Today you said that they were destroyed, right,

11 or did you not say that?

12 A. I didn't mention that in my statement because no one asked me

13 about it. I said that on the 24th, they extradited us to Lipjan, and we

14 saw that equipment had been destroyed by the bombing.

15 Q. You didn't say that before. I have two more topics. In that

16 bombing, the people you saw being killed, did they have external injuries

17 on their bodies? Was it obvious that they were injured, that their bodies

18 were injured by the bombs that fell? Did they have visible injuries?

19 A. I don't really understand your question.

20 Q. You saw people who were killed. Were there visible injuries on

21 their bodies? Were there visible injuries showing that they had been hit?

22 A. Do you mean injuries from NATO or from Serb forces?

23 Q. From shelling, bullets. Generally speaking?

24 A. There were a lot who were injured. A lot of people were injured.

25 Q. But those who had lost their lives, did their bodies have any

Page 9001












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 9002

1 visible wounds, injuries on them?

2 A. Yes, of course they did.

3 Q. I'm asking you that for the following reason: Did you see anybody

4 who died without having sustained any visible external injuries? Were

5 there any persons who died who had not sustained any external visible

6 injuries?

7 A. From what I heard from my -- the other people, there were two

8 people who died in that manner, but I don't know. Who didn't -- people

9 who didn't have any external injuries.

10 Q. You don't know that 23 persons lost their lives without having any

11 external visible injuries because their lungs simply broke due to the

12 explosion?

13 A. That's not true at all. That's not true.

14 Q. If you don't know, if you don't know. Thank you.

15 My last question has to do with the following: In your statement,

16 you said that "What happened when the bombs were falling was a horrifying

17 experience. We could only pray that the bombs and rockets would not fall

18 and explode around us." So you were very frightened of them, weren't you?

19 Did you feel any fear? Was it indeed a horrifying experience, as you had

20 put it?

21 A. If NATO had destroyed, had killed all of us, we would have been

22 happy about it. Nine hundred prisoners in the prison. We would all have

23 been happy if they had killed us if they had only one, destroyed

24 everything.

25 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Ryneveld.

Page 9003

1 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Krasniqi.

2 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Ryneveld, if I could ask first so that you can

3 have an opportunity to clarify later.

4 Mr. Krasniqi, if my memory is correct that I remember that you

5 said that the total number of prisoners who lined up in the early morning

6 of 22nd was up to 800. Is that right.

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, about that number.

8 JUDGE KWON: And then all of a sudden there came throwing of

9 grenades and shooting from 20 people or something like that. Could you

10 give us your estimate of the total number of prisoners who were killed at

11 that time by the Serbs?

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The -- during that incident when we

13 were lined up, I would say 97 people were killed.

14 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.

15 MR. RYNEVELD: I hadn't intended to ask any questions, but I

16 should because of this.

17 Re-examined by Mr. Ryneveld:

18 Q. When you said that about 800 lined up, did you also tell us

19 earlier in chief that not all the prisoners of the 930 prisoners or some

20 odd that you thought were there were actually on the sports field, that

21 some had actually hidden in other locations within the prison? Did I

22 understand you correctly to say that?

23 A. Yes, that's exact.

24 Q. So there were about a hundred or more prisoners who were not lined

25 up on the sports field on the early morning hours of the 22nd of May; is

Page 9004

1 that correct?

2 A. Not all were lined up. There were still some in the cell blocks.

3 There were some who were still sleeping. There were some in different

4 areas.

5 Q. All right.

6 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you. Those are all the questions I have but

7 there is one further housekeeping matter if I may, Your Honour, and that

8 is that the second photograph that had been attached to the statement, the

9 statement is not an exhibit, but the photograph -- I'm sorry. I guess

10 it's sort of his handwritten one. That should be marked as an exhibit as

11 well if I may and we have additional copies.

12 JUDGE MAY: Yes.

13 MR. RYNEVELD: Those are my questions thank you.

14 THE REGISTRAR: That will be marked as Prosecutor's Exhibit 290.

15 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Krasniqi, that concludes your evidence. Thank you

16 for coming to the International Tribunal to give it. You are free to go.

17 [The witness withdrew]

18 MR. NICE: Your Honour, the next witness is at the door so if the

19 usher could perhaps take this witness out, but bring the next witness in

20 before she takes him back to the witness room. I would be grateful to

21 save time.

22 JUDGE MAY: What is the position about this witness?

23 MR. NICE: She can stay tomorrow, but in fact, we certainly can

24 deal with her evidence in chief via the mechanism of 92 bis and perhaps

25 and probably more this morning. This evidence will be very short

Page 9005

1 JUDGE MAY: We have got quarter of an hour.

2 MR. NICE: We are not in a position to waste any time.

3 [The witness entered court]

4 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Let the witness take the declaration.


6 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the

7 whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

8 JUDGE MAY: If you'd like to take a seat.

9 Examined by Mr. Nice:

10 Q. Could you tell us, please, your full name?

11 A. My full name is Jacklin Debra Rowland.

12 Q. Are you a BBC journalist?

13 A. I am, yes.

14 Q. Did you make a statement to the Office of the Prosecution of an

15 interview on the 14th of November, 2001?

16 A. That's correct, yes.

17 Q. Were you here yesterday, before an officer of the Tribunal attest

18 to the accuracy of that statement?

19 A. That is correct.

20 MR. NICE: May that statement and the associated documentation be

21 produced as an exhibit?

22 Two short video extracts to be played within the summary that I am

23 going to read out. I think the booth is ready to play them and I'll tell

24 them when I want them to be played.

25 The summary of this witness's evidence is as follows: That as a

Page 9006

1 38-year-old journalist who works for the British Broadcasting Corporation,

2 she worked in 1998 and 1999 in Belgrade and in Kosovo, during which time

3 she visited many locations including Dubrava Prison in Istok municipality.

4 Two such visits of which the first was on the 21st of May, 1999, when

5 the witness visited Dubrava Prison with a film crew, interpreters, and

6 other international journalists. That group was met by a man who

7 identified himself as the governor of the prison and by an investigating

8 judge. The judge commented that he was not sure what was going on inside

9 the prison, that there was some panic, that some prisoners had escaped

10 from their cells and others had been released by guards on humanitarian

11 grounds.

12 The investigating judge told the group that NATO had bombed the

13 prison and killed several prisoners.

14 Inside the prison, Ms. Rowland noted number of bodies, less than

15 20 she observed, lying in different locations outside the prison

16 buildings. The bodies appeared to be wearing civilian clothing and the

17 witness noted that the prison had not been greatly damaged but in the area

18 she was given access to a perimeter call had been breached. She also saw

19 a hundred prisoners lined up near a perimeter wall held at gunpoint by

20 guards who were wearing blue uniforms. She noted one guard was armed with

21 what appeared to be a Kalashnikov and was wearing a green quilted vest,

22 black baseball cap, hat, dark shirt and dark trousers. She filed a report

23 based on her observations.

24 And if the room would be good enough, please, the video room, to

25 play the first extract, which is the report she filed for television.

Page 9007

1 [Videotape played]

2 JACKY ROWLAND: This was a civilian target say the Serb officials

3 who brought us here. For two hours this morning, NATO pounded this gaol

4 firing about 15 missiles into the main complex and blowing a hole in the

5 perimeter wall.

6 INVESTIGATING JUDGE: This is the second time NATO has attacked

7 this gaol. I can't find words to describe what I think.

8 JACKY ROWLAND: We were told that the prison houses convicted

9 thieves, rapists and other criminals but what makes Istok gaol interesting

10 is that among its inmates are members of the Kosovo Liberation Army. The

11 authorities say a thousand prisoners are being held here. The inmates

12 have been let out of their cells. You can see them behind me lined up

13 against the wall. Some of them have been killed in the NATO attack.

14 Others may have escaped.

15 By unlocking the cells the guards thought they'd give the

16 prisoners a better chance of survival. For many this gamble didn't pay

17 off. We were told at least ten people had been killed in this first wave

18 of bombing, but that wasn't the end of the story. The drone of bombers

19 could still be heard overhead and as we raced away from the scene, NATO

20 struck again. There was clear --

21 MR. NICE: Thank you, just pausing there.

22 Q. Just to clarify, Ms. Rowland, the first person interviewed with

23 the curly hair was the investigating judge, and the person with the green

24 quilted vest you referred to was the man we saw towards the end of the

25 clip with an AK-47 and what appeared to be a pistol in the other hand?

Page 9008

1 A. That's right, yes.

2 MR. NICE: The summary continues. On the 24th of May, 1999,

3 Ms. Rowland visited the prison on a second occasion with other journalists

4 and a film crew. The investigating judge, the same man, was on site but

5 not the governor.

6 The witness observed that the prison had been badly damaged in the

7 preceding few days and that there appeared to be no living prisoners in

8 the prison. She was told that NATO had bombed the prison all weekend and

9 that all the prisoners had been removed.

10 Her evidence is that even though the prison was deserted, she and

11 other journalists were not allowed to move freely about the compound but

12 were escorted and only taken to certain locations. She noted that the

13 guards present on this occasion were dressed in green camouflage uniforms

14 with Balaclava masks and observed, did Ms. Rowland, 44 dead prisoners

15 outside prison buildings, many under blankets, her assessment being that

16 this number included the bodies she had seen on a previous witness which

17 appeared to be left in situ. She also saw 25 bodies piled inside a

18 building. These people did not appear to have died in the building, and

19 the witness concluded that they'd been moved to this location after death,

20 observing that many had their trousers pulled down to their knees exposing

21 their underwear. All the bodies appearing had been dead for more than one

22 day because their skin started to change colour. She also noted there

23 were sandbags on the roof of a small building close to the prison but

24 outside its perimeter walls.

25 She filed another report. May we see the second part of this

Page 9009

1 video, please.

2 [Videotape played]

3 JACKY ROWLAND: Our latest visit to Istok prison poses more

4 questions than it offers answers. It's clear that the prison has been

5 badly pounded by NATO since our first visit on Friday. One building was

6 smouldering while the dining room several cellblocks were badly damaged.

7 The authorities say tens of people have been killed in the bombing raids

8 and about 200 injured. They say bombers have been circling overhead for

9 days making it impossible to remove the dead and wounded. According to

10 the police, the prison was finally evacuated early on Monday. Walking

11 around the prison we counted 44 bodies. About half these appeared to be

12 the victims of the first bombing raid on Friday, still lying under

13 blankets on the grass. Then we were taken to a room in a damaged

14 cellblock where there were 25 corpses.

15 INVESTIGATING JUDGE: On this site was committed the most

16 horrific loss of life. There was a large number of casualties who were

17 transferred to the nearest hospital. The investigation is ongoing.

18 JACKY ROWLAND: We were told they had died between Friday and

19 Sunday, although it was not clear how all of them had met their death nor

20 why they were all in one relatively undamaged room. It's difficult to

21 assess exactly what is the significance of Istok prison, although NATO has

22 described it as a military and police context.

23 Jacky Rowland, BBC, Pristina.

24 MR. NICE: That concludes the summary, Your Honour. The video

25 which we've been playing is a composition of extracts from K991. May it

Page 9010

1 be given a separate exhibit number?

2 JUDGE MAY: Yes. First of all the statement, secondly the video.

3 THE REGISTRAR: The statement will be Prosecutor's Exhibit 291,

4 and the video will be Prosecutor's Exhibit 292.

5 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Nice, I noticed that in this package, there are

6 two statements that --

7 MR. NICE: The reason for that is the one that was presented for

8 signature to Ms. Rowland didn't have a caption or a footing on it. She

9 signed that. The other one is identical but is simply the original

10 statement that she signed.

11 JUDGE KWON: Yes. Thank you.

12 JUDGE MAY: Yes. We'll adjourn for cross-examination.

13 Ms. Rowland, I understand that you can back tomorrow for

14 cross-examination. Thank you for making yourself available. Nine

15 o'clock, please. We will continue with your evidence then.

16 MR. NICE: Your Honour, before you rise, the witness immediately

17 following Ms. Rowland is a Mrs. Imeraj. I know there have been some

18 difficulties about the mechanics of having her statement and addendum

19 bis'd, but I'm hopeful that maybe subject to that process this afternoon,

20 we would be grateful at some stage for an indication, obviously, as to

21 whether that process will be acceptable in her case. I think she is the

22 first person to deal with this particular massacre. Of course it's always

23 a question of degree, to what degree things are a repetition of other

24 events or a part of other events or are unique to themselves. So it's a

25 matter for the Chamber.

Page 9011

1 JUDGE MAY: We will look at her evidence and we'll let you know

2 tomorrow.

3 Ms. Rowland, there's one other matter I should tell you formally

4 that since your evidence has started, don't speak to anybody about it,

5 please, until it's over, and that does include the members of the

6 Prosecution team.

7 Nine o'clock tomorrow morning.

8 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.42 p.m.,

9 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 28th day of

10 August, 2002, at 9.00 a.m.