1 Friday, 6 September 2002
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.09 a.m.
5 JUDGE MAY: Witness --
6 MR. NICE: Your Honour, I'm so sorry. May I just mention three
7 very short matters before we return to the witness? There's a reason for
8 wanting one of the matters mentioned early, with Your Honours' leave. The
9 matter that I need to mention early is Antonic-Simic because of travel
10 arrangements. As I forecast yesterday, our position is that we would not
11 ourselves think it necessary to call her, but in view of the overall
12 position on this evidence, I think it is my duty to tender her for
13 cross-examination should the accused so desire, and I would need to know
14 his reaction to that really now in order that travel arrangements could be
16 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Milosevic, do you want to cross-examine
17 Mrs. Simic? It's a matter for you. We've heard what she said in the
18 statement, but if you want to ask her some additional questions, you can.
19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] If that can be taken as evidence at
20 all for and concerning the statement of General Markovic, of course I
21 would like to cross-examine her.
22 JUDGE MAY: Very well. Let her be called.
23 MR. NICE: Thank you, Your Honour. I'll deal with the other
24 matters later this morning. It's probably better.
25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I --
1 JUDGE MAY: Just a moment.
2 Witness K41, can you hear me?
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
4 JUDGE MAY: I'm sorry to keep you waiting. There are just one or
5 two administrative matters we've got to deal with. It's nothing to do
6 with your evidence. All right?
7 Yes. What is it, Mr. Milosevic?
8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I also would like to broach a
9 topic. Yesterday, you explained in this courtroom -- that is to say you
10 mentioned witness Kevin Curtis. In his written statement, there are new
11 facts, factors, such that he asked and, without any papers at all,
12 unlawfully seized me out of Yugoslavia with the help of the representative
13 of the Ministry of Justice and police. Second, the new facts that he is
14 talking about are that the base of the American army in Tuzla took part in
15 this, which is where I was, and that also --
16 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Milosevic, I'm not going to argue about this now.
17 We've given a ruling that he is not to be called, and that means he won't
18 be called. Now, we have a witness here who is waiting to give evidence on
19 the videolink. We will hear the witness. We will hear any submissions --
20 we'll hear any submissions you want to make in due course.
21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I want to broach another topic. It
22 is your duty, in conformity with the rules and regulations, to look into
23 the matter of my unlawful arrest in light of the facts --
24 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Milosevic, we're not hearing legal submissions
25 now. We will hear from you in due course. Right now we're going to hear
1 this evidence.
2 WITNESS: WITNESS K41 [Resumed]
3 [Witness answered through interpreter]
4 [Witness testified via videolink]
5 JUDGE MAY: Now, Witness K41, we're going to hear your evidence.
6 Could I remind that you took the solemn declaration yesterday and that, of
7 course, still applies today to your evidence. Could I remind you, too,
8 that you're going to hear questions from counsel here. What has got to be
9 said has got to be interpreted, so would you bear that in mind and pause.
10 As far as the arrangements are concerned today, the Albanian booth
11 is not operating for technical reasons. It's not been possible to connect
12 it, and doing so led to technical difficulties yesterday.
13 Now, Mr. Ryneveld.
14 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you, Your Honour. You'll recall that I had
15 about three questions proposed in closed session before the technological
16 problems that prevented that. May we start? Just two more questions, in
17 closed session.
18 JUDGE MAY: Yes.
19 [Private session]
8 [Open session]
9 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you.
10 THE REGISTRAR: We're now in open session, Your Honours.
11 MR. RYNEVELD:
12 Q. Now, Witness K41, just a couple of preliminary questions, if I
13 may. Do you have a criminal record? And by that I mean have you ever
14 gone to court, been convicted of a criminal offence, and sentenced for
15 that by a judge?
16 A. No.
17 Q. Did you ever hold a passport?
18 A. No.
19 Q. Did you have, therefore, a passport to enable you to travel to The
20 Hague to testify on relatively short notice?
21 A. I wasn't able to get a passport because the time was too short.
22 Q. I understand that applications for passports are obtained through
23 the police. Is that correct?
24 A. Correct.
25 Q. Was there a particular reason why you were reluctant to go to the
1 police station to apply for a passport?
2 A. Yes, there was one reason, slight one, why I didn't go there, and
3 the reason was that some two months ago they came to me, to my home, and
4 my brother told me that they were looking for me, and then I asked my
5 relatives to help me and solve this problem, because I didn't know what it
6 was all about.
7 Q. Have you subsequently learned --
8 [Technical difficulty]
9 JUDGE MAY: What is the problem? Why don't you put your
10 headphones on?
11 Can we see if -- can we go on to make sure the accused can hear?
12 MR. RYNEVELD: Yes.
13 Q. Sir, you've just told us that the police came to your home about
14 two months ago looking for you and spoke to your brother. Is that
16 A. Yes, it is. They didn't say why they were looking for me.
17 Q. In any event, is that the reason why you have not gone to the
18 police station to apply for a passport?
19 A. Yes, that's one of the reasons too.
20 THE ACCUSED: The interpreter is very loud, but his voice is
21 absolutely not understandable.
22 JUDGE MAY: We've done the best we can.
23 MR. RYNEVELD: Your Honours, if I might, the witness is speaking
24 in the Serbian language, which the accused understands. I don't know
25 whether an interpreter is necessary. If the accused would wear the
1 earphones, he would hear the voice.
2 JUDGE MAY: Yes.
3 Do you hear that, Mr. Milosevic? Put the headphones on, or listen
4 in on the headphones, and you can hear it.
5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I have placed them, but I can't
6 hear. It is the Serbian that I cannot hear, Mr. Ryneveld. I don't know
7 whether Mr. Tapuskovic can hear the Serbian.
8 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] I can hear the Serbian very well,
9 Your Honours, but I don't hear the interpretation from the English.
10 MR. RYNEVELD: I suspect that perhaps the Serbian comes in in
11 different channels, so what channel does the Serbian come in on?
12 JUDGE MAY: Listen, we must get on with this. We cannot waste
13 further time arguing about channels.
14 MR. RYNEVELD: Fine.
15 JUDGE MAY: Let's go on and see how -- whether the accused can
16 hear all right. Yes.
17 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you, Your Honour.
18 Q. Now, Witness, do I understand, sir, that you started your
19 compulsory national military service on the 17th of March, 1998 with the
20 Yugoslav army?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And how long did your particular training take before you were
23 dispatched to Kosovo?
24 A. The training took 3 months and 20 days, and we stayed on until the
25 9th of September, when we became part of the 549th Motorised Brigade in
2 Q. And who was the commander of the 549th Motorised Brigade in
4 A. The commander was Colonel Bozidar Delic.
5 Q. And do you, as part of that unit, happen to know the brigade's
6 area of responsibility? And if so, after you name the places, could you
7 show the Court on the map that you have available the area that was under
8 the 549th Brigade's responsibility?
9 A. Yes, I can show you the area. I think I can show you on the map.
10 And it came under the responsibility of the 549th Motorised Brigade.
11 Q. All right. At the bottom corner we see Prizren, and that's where
12 you were stationed; is that right?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Perhaps you could name --
15 A. Prizren --
16 Q. Go ahead.
17 A. Our area of responsibility was Suva Reka, Orahovac up to the
18 border, Dragas, and the environs of Prizren. I can indicate this for you
19 on the map.
20 Q. Please do. All right. We now see a larger version of the map.
21 You're pointing to Prizren. Could --
22 A. The area of responsibility was Prizren, Suva Reka, Orahovac. And
23 I'm going to show you -- let me just move the map a bit. There was also
24 Dragas, right up to the border there, the border with Albania. That was
25 our area of responsibility.
1 Q. All right. And within the brigade, I understand that there is a
2 battalion. It's Battalion Technical Company. Is that where you were
3 particularly assigned to?
4 A. Yes. I was assigned to that Technical Company.
5 Q. And what kind of work did you do with that Technical Company?
6 A. The Technical Company was in charge of maintenance of trucks,
7 although up to December we also engaged in road construction, and we dug
8 channels for water for the border huts. We would ensure food supplies and
9 so on.
10 Q. I neglected to ask you earlier. When you joined the
11 549th Motorised Brigade, how old were you?
12 A. I was 19 years old.
13 Q. Now, you've told us that within the brigade there was a sub-unit
14 called a battalion, and you were in that particular battalion. That was
15 called the Logistics Battalion. Can you tell me who was the leader or the
16 commander of your battalion?
17 A. The commander of the battalion to which I belonged was Captain
18 First Class Pavle Gavrilovic.
19 Q. And the Technical Company within that battalion, who was in charge
20 of that?
21 A. It was under the command of Jacimovic, Dragisa Jacimovic.
22 Q. And were there also field operations carried out by your Technical
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. And when that occurred, who, if anyone, took charge during those
2 A. Those operations were taken charge of by Sergeant Kozlina, Rajko
4 Q. All right. Now, how long did you remain with the company in
6 A. I remained in Prizren up until the 10th of June, 1999.
7 Q. And during that time period between the 9th of September, 1998,
8 and the 10th of June, 1999, were you ever involved, personally involved,
9 in field operations including military operations?
10 A. Yes. I did take part on several occasions.
11 Q. If I may just ask you, do you recall being involved in a place
12 called Ljubizda Has?
13 A. Yes. I did take part in that operation.
14 Q. If I could ask you to turn to the Kosovo atlas, page 10. Could
15 you show us on that atlas where that location is?
16 All right. You're now looking at page 10. Perhaps we could get
17 that focused a little clearer.
18 MR. RYNEVELD: Your Honours, if you're watching on your copy, it's
19 at the intersection of 5 at the top and 24 on the right-hand column. So
20 centre of the page.
21 Q. All right. I think you have it now, Witness. Fine. In any
22 event, can you tell us what, if anything, you were told before engaging in
23 that military operation?
24 A. When we engaged in the operation, we said we were -- they told us
25 that we were just going to have a demonstration of power.
1 Q. And what -- briefly, what in fact happened and when did it occur?
2 When did this operation take place?
3 A. That military operation took place -- I think it was in December.
4 And we were told that we would be going to demonstrate our might. But
5 when we arrived at the village, we saw that there was no demonstration of
6 might or power of any kind. And when we came to Ljubizda Has, we passed
7 through the village, and we went beyond the village and we set up an
8 ambush there. And they told us that anybody coming into the village was
9 to be shot at. And we remained there the whole day until nightfall. And
10 in the evening, we withdrew to the first houses in the village. And it is
11 from these houses that we were told -- we were told to expel the people
12 from houses. And after that, when the people had been expelled from their
13 houses, we took our positions in the houses and spent the night there.
14 In the morning, once again we went back to our positions at the
15 ambush spot, and we stayed there until the following night. And after
16 that, we withdrew once again and went back to barracks.
17 Q. Just a couple of questions for clarification, if I may. Who told
18 you to do the things that you have described to the Court?
19 A. Yes. The military police was there, and this lieutenant colonel -
20 I think Konjikovac was his last name - they said we should return to the
21 village in the evening and that we should expel the people from their
22 house so that we would take their place and spend the night there.
23 Q. And were --
24 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Ryneveld, it needs to be clarified who "we" is.
25 MR. RYNEVELD: Yes. That was about to be my next question. Thank
1 you, Your Honour.
2 Q. Who, sir, was "we"? Who were you with?
3 A. We soldiers who belonged to the Technical Company. That's what I
4 meant when I used the word "we."
5 Q. Thank you. And were there any officers in charge of your
6 particular unit on that particular military operation; and if so, who were
7 they, if you recall?
8 A. The officer who was with us in this operation was a sergeant who
9 we called Vodja, the leader in this particular action, but I don't
10 remember his exact name.
11 Q. Now, just so that I'm clear: You were part of the VJ, the army;
12 is that correct?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. And I believe in your evidence you indicated that the military
15 police were also involved. Is that correct or did I misunderstand you?
16 A. That is correct.
17 Q. So just so that I'm clear: Is it your evidence that the army and
18 the police were there together; and if so, who expelled the persons from
19 their homes?
20 A. Yes. While we were in the ambush above the village, as the
21 Technical Company, we were separate from the military police. The
22 military police was stationed down in the village. And in the evening,
23 when we returned down to the village, the military police and we -- I
24 mean, we were ordered, together with the military police, to expel the
25 people from the village, and then the military police escorted them out of
1 the village.
2 Q. I see. All right. And were you subsequently involved in another
3 campaign in February of 1999?
4 A. Yes, I did take part in that campaign. As far as I can remember,
5 it was in Jeskovo.
6 Q. And again, with reference to the Kosovo atlas which you have with
7 you there, could you turn to page 14 and point out to Their Honours, if
8 you would, please, where Jeskovo village is located.
9 MR. RYNEVELD: Your Honours, to assist, M26 on page 14.
10 Q. Witness, you have the map there. You're pointing -- do you find
11 Jeskovo on the map?
12 A. Yes, I have found it. Let me just move the map. Here it is.
13 Q. All right. Thank you. You're pointing to the place called
14 Jeskovo. And is that south of Prizren, sir? It's hard to tell on map
15 14. Is that south of Prizren?
16 A. As far as I remember, yes, it is south of Prizren.
17 Q. All right. Can you describe, sir, in a brief way, if you would,
18 what happened with respect to the village of Jeskovo?
19 A. In the village of Jeskovo, we were placed on the alert sometime
20 around 3.00, after midnight. We did not know exactly where we were
21 going. The next day, when they transferred us by trucks to above the
22 village of Jeskovo, our commander, the captain, said to us that this was
23 an operation, that about 700 of us soldiers were taking part in this, and
24 also that special units of the police were taking part in it. And when we
25 took up positions above the village of Jeskovo, then the artillery
1 started, the tanks, anti-aircraft guns. They all started shooting at the
2 village. Later on, when this artillery shelling subsided, finished, then
3 we set out to clean up the village, and that lasted until the evening.
4 Q. What did you understand it to mean when you were told to, as you
5 now put it, clean up the village? What did you understand that to mean?
6 A. We understood that no one should remain alive in the village,
7 because we were told that there is no one there except for soldiers who
8 belong to the KLA, the KLA, as they were called.
9 Q. From your subsequent experience, did that turn out to be correct?
10 A. As far as I understood things, and as far as I saw things in this
11 action, perhaps I saw about ten dead persons, but I did not see a single
12 one in a KLA uniform.
13 Q. Now, you've told us, sir, that some military equipment was
14 shooting at the village, and then once that subsided, you were told to go
15 clean up the village. Can you tell us what kind of military equipment was
16 used to shell the village prior to you going into the village?
17 A. The military equipment that was brought there involved tanks. It
18 also involved three-barrel anti-aircraft guns and also Pragas. This is
19 also a type of anti-aircraft weapon.
20 Q. And you may have said. Are you able to estimate how long this
21 shelling of the village took place before you went in?
22 A. As far as I can remember, about half an hour, approximately.
23 Q. And during either the shelling phase or the time when you and
24 other soldiers went into the village to clean it up, did you ever notice
25 any return fire from the direction of the village? In other words, was
1 there any shooting at you and your fellow soldiers?
2 A. From the village, I did not notice any fire coming at us, except
3 for when we ran into the village, the soldiers who were behind us started
4 shooting. We did not know what this was all about. We thought that it
5 was some of these KLA soldiers, but we realised that somebody had hid in
6 the woods behind us, and the soldiers saw this man and started shooting at
8 Q. Did you ever see that man; and could you tell us, if so, if he was
9 wearing a uniform or any insignia at all?
10 A. No. He wore a civilian uniform. And when he got out of the
11 bushes, walking towards them, he held his hands up.
12 Q. Now, you've told us that you personally saw about ten bodies. Do
13 you know, from what you found out from fellow soldiers, or other
14 information, about how many people were killed in that operation?
15 A. As far as I found out, in that operation I think that about 30
16 people lost their lives. I saw, I think, at least ten.
17 Q. Thank you, Witness K41. I'm going to ask you now to turn your
18 mind to the last week of March of 1999. Do you recall Captain Gavrilovic
19 giving instructions to your company to do anything?
20 A. Yes. I remember that happened in the month of March during the
21 night. I do not remember the exact date, but I know it was night-time
22 when the NATO bombing started. That night, around 9.00 or 10.00,
23 Captain Gavrilovic came to the battalion, and he ordered the soldiers to
24 be issued uniforms, ammunition, and equipment that they need for combat.
25 Q. And were you in fact issued with those uniforms and equipment?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. And did you leave immediately or did you leave the following
3 morning, in the early hours of the following morning?
4 A. We did not leave immediately. We left in the morning hours, the
5 following morning, that is.
6 Q. Where did you go and how did you get there?
7 JUDGE MAY: Can we make it plain from the outset -- sorry to
8 interrupt you, Witness K41, but it's important we make it plain from the
9 outset who the witness is referring to when he says "we"? It is not clear
10 and it should be clear for the record.
11 MR. RYNEVELD: Yes, Your Honour I will clarify that.
12 Q. Sir, throughout when we've been talking about "we," are you
13 talking about you and other soldiers who were part of the 549th Motorised
14 Brigade of the VJ army?
15 A. Yes. I am speaking about soldiers who were with me in my company
16 and also in the Logistics Battalion.
17 Q. And again I apologise if I've asked you this before: What was
18 Captain Gavrilovic's position in regard to your group of soldiers?
19 A. I did not understand the question.
20 Q. Yes. Captain Gavrilovic, what was his position with respect to
21 the army? What was he in charge of?
22 A. He was commander of the Logistics Battalion. He was responsible
23 for the Logistics Battalion in the rear.
24 Q. Of which you were a part?
25 A. Yes. Yes, that's right.
1 Q. I'll return to my earlier question. In the early morning hours of
2 the following day after the NATO bombing news reached you, where did you
3 go and how did you get there?
4 A. We entered the trucks and we went through a village, a Serb
5 village. I think it's called Novake. And we arrived at a hill above
6 Trnje, to the south of Trnje. That's where we arrived.
7 Q. I'm going to ask you to turn to page 11, if you would, of the
8 atlas. Along the left hand margin of that page, about centre of the
9 page. Make sure the left margin of the page is showing, please. Not the
10 top, the left. Yes. Thank you. A little bit higher, please. A little
11 bit more. There we are.
12 A. [Indicates]
13 Q. Okay. If we can clarify that. Now, there's Suva Reka visible at
14 the top. And do you see Trnje and Novake?
15 A. Yes. Novake is a Serb village before Trnje, on the southern side,
16 right over here.
17 Q. All right. And how far away is that from Trnje, which is just
18 about --
19 MR. RYNEVELD: Your Honours, about half an inch up on the page
20 from Novake.
21 Q. How far is that, sir, approximately? Do you know?
22 A. Well, I cannot remember exactly how far away it is.
23 Q. All right.
24 A. But it is perhaps a kilometre or two away. I'm not quite sure.
25 Q. Okay. What time of the morning did you get there approximately?
1 A. I think it was around 4.00 in the morning, something like that.
2 3.00, 4.00. The early morning hours. That's what I do know.
3 Q. All right. And was there any heavy artillery or military
4 equipment with you and your group, from the 549th with you?
5 A. In our group there, the Logistics Battalion, the only heavy
6 weapon, if it is a heavy weapon, is an anti-aircraft gun which is called
7 the three-barrelled gun. And we only had that gun, which we positioned on
8 this hill above Trnje.
9 Q. Now, if you would, please, can you tell us that morning,
10 overlooking Trnje, who were the people in charge who were present? Who
11 was there?
12 A. Now, to the officers, the ones with us were Pavle Gavrilovic, the
13 commander of the battalion, his deputy Gligorevic, and there was
14 Jacimovic, and there were the sergeants who were in charge of their
15 platoons. That is Rajko Kozlina, Delic, and Fejzic. Miroslav is what we
16 called him. I don't know his exact name.
17 Q. And who was your immediate commander? In other words, who was the
18 sergeant who was immediately in charge of the group in which you were?
19 A. Our immediate superior was Sergeant Rajko Kozlina, who took over
20 command in such situations when going into action.
21 Q. Were there any police with you on this occasion?
22 A. No. On that occasion, there was only one policeman. I think he
23 was from the Serb village of Novake. He was probably familiar with the
24 terrain, and that's why they dispatched him together with us, as far as I
25 can remember.
1 Q. So this was -- this operation appeared to be almost entirely
2 military with one policeman; is that correct?
3 A. Yes, that is correct.
4 Q. Sir, you've mentioned a number of superior officers including
5 sergeants. Can you give the Court an estimate of approximately how large
6 a group of soldiers were involved in this military operation? How many
7 companies or how many groups for a total number of people?
8 A. As far as I can remember now, there were three companies, three
9 sergeants who led their platoons in companies, and I think it involved 80
10 to 100 soldiers, as far as I can remember.
11 Q. All right. Now, on your arrival about 3.00 or 4.00 in the
12 morning, you've told us basically what you did, and can you tell us in
13 your own words basically what happened? When did things start happening
14 and who did what? Just tell us your narrative, please.
15 A. Yes. In the morning when we came to that hill, we disembarked
16 from the trucks, and the trucks were positioned so they could not be seen
17 from the village on the hill. On the hill, this anti-aircraft gun was
18 positioned, the three-barrelled gun, the way we called it, and then it
19 could target the village.
20 After that, we waited up on the hill with our sergeants. We stood
21 there, and Captain Gavrilovic called the sergeants to issue some order to
22 them. The sergeants walked from us to Captain Gavrilovic, and he asked
23 them whether they and their soldiers were ready for action, and they
24 answered yes to him. After that, he motioned with his hand towards Trnje,
25 and he said that on that day no one should remain alive there. And the
1 sergeants, when they understood the order that he issued to them, they
2 turned to us, our sergeant turned to us, and said to put our company
3 together, and then he set out in front of us, downhill, towards Trnje.
4 Q. Now, where were you when this order was given by Captain
5 Gavrilovic to the sergeants? Were you within hearing distance of this,
7 A. Yes. I was about three or four metres away from Captain
8 Gavrilovic and Sergeant Kozlina. There were also other soldiers there who
9 were around me and who could clearly hear the orders.
10 Q. Well, after this order was given, sir, what, if anything,
12 A. After this order was issued, the sergeants, Kozlina and
13 Nedeljkovic, set out towards the village of Trnje with their companies,
14 and Sergeant Fejzic remained on the hill with his soldiers. Afterwards,
15 as we were going downhill, all the soldiers realised what this was all
16 about. We knew.
17 We were getting close to the village. As we were getting close to
18 the village, we were spreading our ranks in order to be in combat position
19 around the village. As we were taking our positions on the periphery of
20 the village, there was a man who was walking with some bag on his
21 shoulder, on his back. Probably he had some cattle feed or something. A
22 burst of gunfire was fired from next to me, and this man fell.
23 After that, we took up positions there on the outskirts, and after
24 a while the anti-aircraft gun started firing at the village. This lasted
25 for about 20 minutes. And then, after that, we set out into the village.
1 The first thing we did was that we set on fire a haystack that was
2 on the way, and after that we saw people in two columns. One group was
3 fleeing towards Lesane and the other ones were fleeing to the left,
4 towards the stream.
5 JUDGE MAY: I'm going to stop you.
6 Mr. Ryneveld, it would be really helpful and it would clarify
7 matters if you would not lead, but take the witness through this account.
8 MR. RYNEVELD: Yes, Your Honour. What I had originally planned to
9 do is let him do his narrative and then back up and fill in details, but
10 if you'd rather I did it piece by piece, I certainly will.
11 Q. All right. Let's just back up for a moment and fill in some
12 details, if we can, sir. As you went to the village, you've told us about
13 an old man, and you heard a shot and the man fell. Do you know who shot
14 the man, the man carrying the cattle feed, or the bag that you assumed ...
15 A. The sergeant shot.
16 Q. What sergeant?
17 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter kindly requests the witness to
18 repeat his answer.
19 A. Sergeant Kozlina, who was our sergeant, shot at him.
20 MR. RYNEVELD:
21 Q. Did you see that?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Then you told us about the three-barrelled anti-aircraft weapon
24 shelling the village. And during that shelling, or at some later time,
25 did you see whether there were any occupants of that village, of Trnje,
1 and what, if anything, they were doing?
2 A. Yes. The villagers I saw were indeed fleeing - I said a while
3 ago - to the left-hand side, towards Lesane and the other group -- no.
4 To the right towards Lesane, and others were fleeing to the left, towards
5 the stream. I mean left and right of us, as we were moving along, as we
6 had taken up our positions facing the village.
7 Q. All right. And perhaps if you could turn to the atlas again.
8 Would you have the atlas, please, again at page 11. You've earlier shown
9 us where Trnje is on page 11. Can you point out where ^ Lesane is? Just
10 move the atlas a little bit to the right so that we have the left-hand
11 margin available. Yes. Okay. Do you see Trnje?
12 A. Yes. This is the village of Trnje, and to the right is the
13 village of Lesane, to the right of Trnje.
14 Q. Thank you. All right, sir. Now, what were you doing while the
15 shelling was going on?
16 A. While the shelling was going on, I and the other soldiers who were
17 standing next to me, to my left and right, took up our positions and
18 waiting for the shelling to stop, in order to be able to enter the
20 Q. And when the shelling stopped, did you receive instructions from
21 anyone to do anything?
22 A. Yes. The sergeant, Sergeant Kozlina, got up, and to the left and
23 right of him, the soldiers started moving. And we said, "What's up?" And
24 they said, "We're on the move," which meant that we were moving into the
25 village. Right after him, after he started, we followed. When I say
1 "him," I mean the sergeant.
2 Q. En route into the village, after the shelling, did you encounter
3 anyone? In other words, did you see any other people? And if so, what
4 happened to them?
5 A. Yes. When we started towards the village, there was a man running
6 between the houses, 300 or 400 metres away, or in front of us, and we
7 heard a burst of gunfire and the man fell to the ground.
8 Q. Did you see who shot him?
9 A. No.
10 Q. What was the first thing that you or your company did once you got
11 to the village, after this man was shot? Let me direct your attention to
12 your earlier evidence. I think you talked about a haystack.
13 A. Yes. The first thing that happened, what I said earlier on, was
14 that we set fire to that haystack. And later on in groups, two by two or
15 three of us went into the houses in the village, and the houses were set
16 fire to one by one.
17 Q. On whose instruction did that occur, if anyone's?
18 A. According to the instructions issued by our sergeant.
19 Q. Did you in fact --
20 JUDGE MAY: I am in fact going to stop you now, Mr. Ryneveld.
21 It's right that I should give the witness a formal warning.
22 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you.
23 JUDGE MAY: Witness K41 --
24 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please, Judge.
25 JUDGE MAY: Witness K41, I must just tell you this formally.
1 You've been told it before, but it should be repeated. You are not
2 obliged to give evidence which would incriminate you of any offences. You
3 may, of course, do so, but unless you're ordered to do so, you're not
4 obliged to give the evidence. Do you understand that?
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Partially. I apologise, but I
6 didn't quite understand. Could you repeat that, please?
7 JUDGE MAY: You do not have to give evidence which would
8 incriminate you, which means it would admit -- which admits on your part
9 any criminal offences. And you're now dealing with setting houses on
10 fire, and there may be other matters you're going to deal with in which
11 you admit criminal offences in which you participated. You do not have to
12 give that evidence, but of course you may do so. You don't have to unless
13 you're ordered to do so.
14 You should understand your legal position.
15 Yes, Mr. Ryneveld.
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation]. Yes. Thank you. I understand.
17 MR. RYNEVELD:
18 Q. Despite the formal warning given by His Honour, do you still wish
19 to continue to answer my questions about what occurred on that date?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. All right.
22 A. And I said so previously in my statement. I have come here to
23 testify, to speak about what I saw and heard.
24 Q. Thank you, Witness. Sir, we're to the point now where you've told
25 us that you went from house to house. What were you doing in the process
1 of going from house to house? What were you looking for?
2 A. This searching of houses, what we were doing was looking to see
3 that nobody remained in the houses. And we went in groups. The sergeant
4 would issue orders to each group, the two or three of us, to go into the
5 houses and to check and see whether there was anybody left inside. If
6 there was nobody left inside, then we were to burn the houses.
7 Q. Did you do that?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. For the first ten or 15 or so houses that you encountered, did you
10 find anyone inside in the group in which you were a participant?
11 A. Our group did not find anybody in those first ten or so houses
12 that we entered.
13 Q. All right. And did -- I think you've already answered this
14 question, but when you found no one in those houses, you set fire to them,
15 I take it. Is that what you told us?
16 A. Yes, that's right.
17 Q. Now, while you were searching houses, do you recall an incident
18 involving an elderly man?
19 A. Yes, I do remember that. I remember an elderly man who was forced
20 out of his house, and I remember the sergeant ordering the soldier to
21 shoot at him. But the soldier refused and said, "I can't do it. I can't
22 shoot at the man." And I also remember that he killed him with a burst of
23 gunfire, shooting at his head, and said, "This is how it's done."
24 Q. Perhaps I could ask some questions for clarification. Who was
25 the -- who was the sergeant and who was the soldier involved in this
2 A. The sergeant was Kozlina, and the soldier was Private Milosevic,
3 who didn't want to shoot and who said, "I can't shoot."
4 Q. And this Private Milosevic that you knew, had you -- had you known
5 him while you were in your training? Was he, like you, a recent recruit?
6 A. Yes. I met Private Milosevic in Prizren when I arrived there,
7 when I was placed under the command of the 549th Motorised Brigade.
8 That's when I met him.
9 Q. When Private Milosevic said, "I can't," who shot this old man?
10 A. Sergeant Kozlina shot him with a burst of gunfire from an
11 automatic weapon and said, "This is how it's done."
12 Q. Do you know what effect shooting at him had on the old man? In
13 other words, was he injured or killed?
14 A. The old man fell down, and I think he was dead. I don't think.
15 I'm more than certain that he fell down dead because he remained lying on
16 the ground there and we continued on.
17 Q. What, if anything, happened to his house?
18 A. His house was set on fire like all the other houses that the army
19 came across.
20 Q. Did you continue going from house to house?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Could you tell us about an incident that you recall where -- the
23 first instance where you found someone in a home you searched?
24 A. Yes. When we came to one particular house, we saw the curtains
25 move on the windows of the house, and we knew that there was somebody in
1 the house. So we entered the yard, and in the yard there was a house on
2 the left-hand side and some garages, and there was some houses on the
3 right-hand side. I and several other soldiers went into the right-hand
4 side houses, and the people who were in the houses were expelled. They
5 were forced out into the yard.
6 Q. By whom and how?
7 A. They were brought out by the soldiers who entered the houses.
8 Q. Were you one of those soldiers who did that?
9 A. Yes. I was with the soldiers who went into the right-hand side
11 Q. Were they taken out at gunpoint or some other way?
12 A. Yes, of course at gunpoint. There was a gun placed to each of
13 their heads when the door was opened, because we were told that possibly
14 there were soldiers belonging to the KLA there too. But there was nobody
15 there except the civilians who were in the houses. And at gunpoint they
16 were told to leave their house and go outside.
17 Q. Do you remember how many people they were and what their gender or
18 ages would have been approximately?
19 A. Later on when they were all assembled in the yard and when they
20 were told to sit down in the yard, I think there were about 15 people
21 there. There were women there too, children. I remember at least one
22 child that I saw. And there were some elderly people too.
23 Q. Were there any babies? Is that what you refer to as the child?
24 A. Yes. That's what I mean. There was at least one baby. It might
25 have been -- well, not even a year old.
1 Q. What, if anything, were the people told to do once they went
2 outside or do you know?
3 A. When the people had left their houses and gone outside, our
4 sergeant was there and they ordered them -- he ordered them to sit, to sit
5 down in the yard.
6 Q. What happened next?
7 A. Next he told a soldier to take one of the men out, one of the men
8 who was sitting down there, to take him to the garage and to ask him
9 whether they had any money on them. And when the soldier told him that
10 they didn't have any money, he told the man to go back to his position in
11 the yard and to sit down. And he ordered the soldier to go back to where
12 the rest of us were standing, and he said -- he told the rest of the
13 soldiers who were in the courtyard to move towards the gate, to leave the
14 yard and go towards the gate. And the four or five of us who remained
15 there, he told us to stay.
16 Q. So just so that I'm clear, originally we have more than four or
17 five of you. There were a number of soldiers in the courtyard; is that
19 A. Yes, there were more soldiers, and there were some soldiers who
20 were still in the houses, and there were other soldiers who went into the
21 yard later on to see what was going on.
22 Q. And do I understand your evidence correctly that Sergeant Kozlina
23 ordered most of the soldiers to head towards the gate, leaving four or
24 five of you behind in the courtyard with the civilians? Is that -- do I
25 understand it correctly?
1 A. Yes, that's how it was. He told the soldiers, the other soldiers
2 apart from us, four or five, he told the rest of the soldiers to get out
3 of the yard, to leave the yard, and they moved towards the exit.
4 Q. One more question before we continue. At any time were these
5 civilians questioned by anyone, other than the request for money? Were
6 they asked at all about KLA?
7 A. Yes. They asked them where the KLA was, whether there were any
8 KLA members there, and I remember them saying that there was never any KLA
9 there and that there was nobody belonging to the KLA there. And then
10 there was a round of swearing.
11 Q. Then you told us about the man who was taken aside and put back in
12 place in the yard. You told us that the soldiers were -- most of the
13 soldiers were ordered out of the courtyard, leaving four or five of you
14 behind. What happened next?
15 A. I didn't understand the question, because what I received as
16 translation was that one soldier left.
17 Q. No. All right. Let me repeat my question. You've told us that a
18 number of soldiers were sent out, leaving four or five of you behind.
19 What happened next?
20 A. The rest of the soldiers started to leave the yard, and the four
21 of us, or five of us, remained. And our sergeant, Sergeant Kozlina, who
22 was there, ordered us to shoot the people who were in the yard, the people
23 that sat before us.
24 Q. Did you do that?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Who shot the people?
2 A. The sergeant who was there shot, and all the remaining soldiers,
3 the soldiers who stayed on there, shot, the four or five of us, that is.
4 Q. Including yourself?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Did you shoot at all of the civilians in front of you? When I say
7 "you," I mean collectively the group.
8 A. Yes. Our group shot at the people who were there. Each from the
9 position he was in shot at all the people.
10 Q. What, if anything, do you recall happening to the people at whom
11 you and your fellow soldiers shot?
12 A. The people who were shot at began falling down one across the
13 other, one over the other, and what I remember most vividly is how -- I
14 remember this very vividly. There was a baby, and it had been shot with
15 three bullets, and it was screaming unbelievably loud.
16 Q. What do you believe happened to those people?
17 A. I don't know. All I wanted to do was to get out of that place as
18 fast as possible, and Sergeant Kozlina, when we left the place, told us
19 soldiers, the two or three of us who were in that group, that we should
20 check the other house on the left-hand side to see that there wasn't
21 anybody in that. And in the house on the right, there was an elderly man.
22 Q. Did you go into that house, the other house?
23 A. Yes. Soldiers had searched the house beforehand, and we saw this
24 old man there who had been killed, who was dead. There was nobody else in
25 the house. So we left the house.
1 Q. When you came out of that house, where did you go and what did you
2 hear, or what did you do?
3 A. We all left the house and left the yard. And it was on the main
4 road, actually. The main road went through the village. One of the
5 soldiers said that you could see the curtains moving in another house.
6 After a certain amount of time, the window was broken on that house and a
7 bomb or grenade was thrown inside. And after the explosion, nothing
8 further was heard in that house.
9 Q. So you moved on to different houses in the village after that
10 incident of the 15 or so civilians; right?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Now, as you left --
13 A. Yes, that's right.
14 Q. As you left the compound with the civilians who your group shot,
15 did you see whether any other soldiers checked to see what had happened?
16 Did you see anyone looking in the courtyard at all and then leave?
17 A. Yes. As soon as the shooting stopped, there were soldiers in the
18 yard. Soldiers entered the yard to look around, because both the
19 companies had collected there already. And so somebody came out -- the
20 soldiers went to see what had happened, and then we continued on our way
21 towards a nearby shop.
22 Q. And what happened when you got to the nearby shop? What did you
23 do there?
24 MR. RYNEVELD: We're at paragraph 20, Your Honours.
25 A. Well, they told us that we could take what we needed from the
1 shop: food, drink. If we were thirsty, we would take some fruit juices;
2 we would take some food.
3 Q. Who is "they"? Who told you you could do this?
4 A. Our sergeant told us that directly. The sergeant of our company
5 said we could go and help ourselves, because we would not be getting any
6 food coming in to us, any rations, so ...
7 Q. What did the soldiers do when they were told they could do that?
8 A. They went to the shop, and everybody helped themselves, took what
9 they wanted or needed.
10 Q. All right. Now, I'm going to stop here, sir. During this whole
11 incident so far, from when you arrived at the village of Trnje overlooking
12 the hill, during the shelling, and then during the events that you've just
13 described to us, did you at any time see return fire coming from the
14 village? Was anyone shooting at you?
15 A. At no point was there any shooting or opening of fire from the
16 village, nor did we come across any uniforms or rifles which would mean
17 that there had been soldiers belonging to the KLA there.
18 Q. After helping yourselves to the goods in this shop, did you leave
19 the village?
20 A. Yes. We moved towards the bridge, which is north of the village.
21 So we left the village and went in the direction of the bridge. On the
22 left-hand side you could see seven or eight women who had just been
24 Q. From that vantage point, were you able to see any VJ military
1 A. Yes. From the bridge, you could see a tank and a Praga, and they
2 had been positioned some 500 metres north of Trnje.
3 Q. These women, could you tell how they had met their death? Were
4 they drowned, or could you tell how they died?
5 A. The women who were there by the roadside, in the field, were
6 quite -- had quite obviously been shot with bullets fired from an
7 automatic weapon.
8 MR. RYNEVELD: Your Honours, I'm about to head into a different
9 topic at paragraph 22. Would this be a convenient time or would you like
10 me to continue?
11 JUDGE MAY: We started rather late.
12 MR. RYNEVELD: Fine. I'll continue.
13 JUDGE MAY: Go on for another quarter of an hour.
14 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you.
15 Q. Now, Witness, you've told us that there was a bridge. I take it
16 there was also a creek. The bridge went over a stream of water, did it?
17 A. Yes, that's right.
18 Q. And did something happen? Well, what happened next? Where did
19 you go?
20 A. Well, we crossed that bridge. We started walking along that
21 creek, and perhaps 200 or 300 metres from that bridge there was a group of
22 people that had sought shelter from the village by that creek. There was
23 a primitive bridge that they had placed there. It was just a log. And
24 there were 30 or 40 people there.
25 I heard shouting. I heard the soldiers shouting that they should
1 all surrender or that otherwise they would be killed. However,
2 Lieutenant Jacimovic, who happened to be there, practically started
3 besieging them to let the women and children go. And that is what was
4 done. The women and children were released, and also a disabled man who
5 did not have a leg. The remaining persons, that is to say four or five
6 men, were killed.
7 Q. Are you able to give us an estimate of the range of age of these
8 four or five remaining men?
9 A. These men who remained I think were, say, between 40 and 50 years
10 of age.
11 Q. How were they killed and by whom?
12 A. At that moment when they were shot at, I was about ten metres
13 away, because I tried to be as far away as possible from my superiors so
14 that I would not get any other similar orders that I would have to shoot.
15 So I was about ten metres away. And both companies were there. There
16 were a lot of soldiers, so I could not see exactly who shot at them.
17 Q. Well, what happened next, sir? Did you go to -- did you continue
18 on and go towards another village?
19 A. After that, we went on for another 200 metres or so and there we
20 got some rest. And then we helped ourselves to what had been taken from
21 the shop. After that, when we got our rest, our sergeant and about ten of
22 us soldiers went to a hill facing the village of Mamusa.
23 Q. Can we pause there, and can I ask you to just turn the page from
24 page 11 to page 10 of the Kosovo atlas that you have there. And you will
25 see that because we're on page 11 we're on the left-hand margin. There's
1 the same area depicted on the right-hand margin on page 10. Do you see
2 Trnje right under number 22 on the right-hand column there? We have to
3 move it. There we go. 21. Up a bit, please. Do you see Trnje?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Point it out. All right.
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Do you see Mamusa just immediately to the left of that?
8 A. Yes. Left of Trnje, Mamusa.
9 Q. So you went to Trnje, followed the stream, and then you -- you and
10 about ten other soldiers, under the leadership of Sergeant Kozlina, do I
11 understand, went towards Mamusa; is that right?
12 A. No. We continued along the creek for about 200 metres, and then
13 we took a break there and then we proceeded.
14 Q. All right.
15 A. Then we went towards Mamusa, to the right of the stream, that is,
16 and we came to this elevation from which Mamusa can be seen, and that is
17 where we stopped then.
18 Q. Thank you. While you were having your rest and while you were
19 eating the stuff stolen from the shop, could you hear anything happening
20 in respect to the village of Mamusa in relation to the anti-aircraft
22 A. When we took a break and when we went up to this elevation, about
23 ten of us and our sergeant took up positions above Mamusa, and that is
24 when this anti-aircraft gun started engaging the first seven or eight
25 houses that were on the outskirts of Mamusa. And afterwards, when this
1 shelling ended of these seven or eight houses, we set out to these houses,
2 and we were told that these houses that had been shelled should be
4 Q. Did you do that?
5 A. Yes. The houses that had been shelled were torched, and the
6 sergeant and we returned to that elevation where we had been during the
7 shelling of those houses.
8 Q. Do you recall any other soldiers who were with you in that group?
9 Now, you've earlier referred to a Private Milosevic who had told Kozlina
10 he couldn't shoot the man. Was that person with you?
11 A. Which man are you referring to when you say that there was a man
12 or, rather, person with us?
13 Q. You recall telling us that Sergeant Kozlina showed a soldier how
14 it was done by shooting an old man, and that person who said he couldn't
15 do it you said was Private Milosevic. Do you now know what I'm talking
16 about? Earlier.
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Was that Private Milosevic with you in the group that went to
19 Mamusa or do you recall?
20 A. Yes. As far as I can remember, he was there.
21 Q. Do you recall anybody else by name who may have been with you in
22 that group? If not, just say.
23 A. In that group that went to Mamusa, I could not remember the names
24 of the soldiers.
25 Q. All right.
1 A. It's been three years now, and I do not remember some of the
2 details any longer, but I do remember quite a few details.
3 Q. Yes. In any event, after you then burned these houses in Mamusa,
4 did you return to Trnje that evening?
5 A. When these houses were burned when we returned from the stream
6 where our group of about ten soldiers and sergeant had set out, we reached
7 them and it was dark. It started getting dark. And we were told that we
8 should go back to the hill where Captain Gavrilovic had remained, and we
9 were supposed to go back to them. And then we crossed the bridge in
10 Trnje, and there when we entered Trnje, we saw that some people had come
11 back because of the cigarettes that were still burning.
12 And there was a man who was right in front of us, and the sergeant
13 called him, and he walked up and he said that he had just come from
14 Lesane, that he didn't know anything, and that he's not guilty of
15 anything. The other one didn't answer him at all, he just shot him. And
16 then there was a lot of commotion in the dark. Other people could be seen
17 round those cigarettes that could be seen, that were still burning. And
18 then the soldiers, we started shooting around. And after that we were
19 ordered to go back to where we had been, going through Trnje.
20 Q. Just a couple of quick questions on that point. I believe you
21 said you saw cigarettes and that it was dark. Were these people smoking
22 these cigarettes or were these cigarette butts that had fallen on the
23 ground or what do you mean?
24 A. We saw people who were smoking.
25 Q. I see.
1 A. And we saw the movements they were making with their hands as they
2 had cigarettes in their hands.
3 Q. All right. And could you tell their ethnicity by what they were
5 A. I think that they were ethnic Albanians, because the man who had
6 been killed wore their traditional cap on his head. What's its name now?
7 Q. All right. And just for clarification, you said, and I'm looking
8 at the transcript, you said, "There was a man who was right in front of
9 us, and the sergeant called him and he walked up and he said that he had
10 just come from Lesane, that he didn't know anything and that he's not
11 guilty of anything." Yes, translate that first.
12 And then you said: "The other one didn't answer him at all. He
13 just shot him."
14 Who are you talking about, "the other one," and who shot who?
15 A. I meant that the sergeant did not give him any answer to his
16 explanations that he had come from Lesane and that he was not guilty of
17 anything. The sergeant ordered him to come, did not give any further
18 clarifications to him, did not talk to him at all. He simply shot him.
19 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Ryneveld, will you be moving on now to another
21 MR. RYNEVELD: I will be, yes, Your Honour. Paragraph 27.
22 JUDGE MAY: Witness K41, we're going to adjourn now for a break.
23 That will be for 20 minutes. Could you remember not to speak to anybody
24 about your evidence during the break, and that includes people from the
25 Prosecution, and not to speak about your evidence until it's over.
1 We will adjourn now for 20 minutes.
2 --- Recess taken at 10.42 a.m.
3 --- On resuming at 11.11 a.m.
4 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Ryneveld.
5 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you, Your Honours.
6 Q. Now, Witness, just before the break, I understood that you stayed
7 in Trnje for a period of time. Is that correct? How long did you stay in
9 A. What do you mean when you say "how long"? Are you referring to
10 our entire stay?
11 Q. No. After the shooting incident you talked about, where the old
12 man wearing the Albanian cap was shot, you went back to Trnje, and how
13 long did you then stay in the Trnje area? Do you remember? If not,
14 that's fine.
15 A. After that incident when this old man was killed, there was
16 shooting there, and then there was commotion. And then the sergeant said
17 that we should go back to where we had been and that that is where we
18 would spend the night, over there where we had rested, by the river, and
19 that's where we returned after that incident.
20 Q. All right. Now, I want to touch very briefly on the next couple
21 of incidents. Was there an incident involving two men coming along the
22 road from Mamusa to Trnje?
23 A. Yes. That was the last day when we were there. When we crossed
24 this bridge, we returned to the hill. We joined up with the soldiers who
25 had stayed behind with Captain Gavrilovic and Fejzic's company that had
1 remained on the hill. When we reached them, somebody noticed that two
2 young men -- they were probably young men. That's what it looked like,
3 judging from their walk. We were told that they were walking from Mamusa
4 towards Trnje. And when they reached the place where we had spent those
5 days while we were there by the river, when they arrived at that spot, the
6 army started shooting at them. They fell on the ground, and we could hear
7 them shouting from down there, "Don't shoot, soldiers. Don't shoot,
8 soldiers." And when this was heard --
9 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter did not understand who --
10 A. -- said that the shooting should start. One of the two men who
11 were lying on the ground, one of them started running towards the creek,
12 and the other one put his hands up and started walking towards us. The
13 one who had started running towards the creek was targeted by the
14 anti-aircraft gun that was on the hill, and the other one, who had raised
15 his hands, came about 80 metres away from us, and at that moment, Sergeant
16 Fejzic reached Sergeant Kozlina. He came up to him, talked to him, and
17 then Sergeant Fejzic proceeded further on towards the man who was coming
18 towards us. And when he was perhaps about ten metres away from him, he
19 shot at him.
20 JUDGE MAY: Perhaps you could clarify that incident briefly,
21 Mr. Ryneveld.
22 MR. RYNEVELD:
23 Q. Very briefly, sir: Were you present -- was there any discussion
24 between Sergeant Kozlina and Sergeant Fejzic prior to the shooting of this
1 A. Yes. There were jokes. Sergeant Kozlina was saying, "Fejzic,
2 here, you've got an opportunity now to have your name inscribed as well
3 now." It was our understanding that that meant that he was probably
4 supposed to shoot someone too. And the other one proceeded past us and
5 went about 20 metres away from us and then shot at this man who held his
6 hands up. And after that, he turned around, smiling, as if he had done
7 something good perhaps.
8 Q. All right. Now, I believe you told us earlier that Fejzic's
9 company had stayed behind on the hill, while Kozlina's company and another
10 company had gone into Trnje to, as you phrased it, clean up the village.
11 Is that right?
12 A. Yes, that is right.
13 Q. Now, after this shooting incident where Fejzic shoots the man who
14 was surrendering, did you return to Trnje?
15 A. No. After that, we remained on the hill. And afterwards, we
16 returned to Prizren.
17 Q. All right. So you left and you went to Prizren. The following
18 day what happened?
19 A. Yes. The following day, we were told -- we were told that we were
20 going to Trnje when we boarded the truck. We left on a military truck,
21 and there was also a civilian truck that was following us. And we were
22 told that if we saw anyone along the way we should shoot them, or if there
23 was anybody in Trnje or outside Trnje.
24 Q. Who told you that? Who told you to shoot people along the way?
25 A. That is what we were told by Sergeant Kozlina. Sergeant Kozlina
1 said this to us. He said that if we saw someone along the way that we
2 should shoot them.
3 JUDGE MAY: And "we," the company, battalion, the brigade?
4 MR. RYNEVELD: Yes. Thank you.
5 Q. Who are you talking about, sir? You got onto this military truck
6 with a group of soldiers. Who were the soldiers? Whose company?
7 A. Sergeant Kozlina was in this military truck, and his Technical
8 Company was on the truck as well, the soldiers from his Technical Company.
9 Q. And you were among those soldiers?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. You refer to a civilian truck. Was that also from your company or
12 was that from a different company or driven by someone from a different
14 A. I don't know who it belonged to, the civilian truck. I cannot
15 know who it belonged to. It just followed us. And we did not -- I mean,
16 the main point is that it followed us, and I cannot know and I cannot say
17 who it belonged to.
18 Q. All right. Do you happen to know who drove that truck? Was it a
19 civilian or was it a soldier or what? Or do you know?
20 A. That truck, I think that Sergeant Nedeljkovic was on it and some
21 of the soldiers. I can't remember who actually drove it.
22 Q. All right.
23 A. And -- because later on when we arrived in Trnje, Sergeant
24 Nedeljkovic got out of the truck. I remember that. And he gave us gloves
25 and sacks in order to collect the dead.
1 Q. Where were you collecting the dead from?
2 A. First, when we came to Trnje, we entered the yard that I told you
3 about earlier where that group of people had been killed. In that yard
4 there was no one except for blood where they had been. On the ground
5 there was blood. And then we proceeded towards the meadow, to the bridge
6 where those women were lying. There were about five or six bodies of
7 these women there. And what was also visible were places where there were
8 one or two bodies that had been taken as well.
9 The sergeant told us that the bodies of the men who were killed in
10 the creek should not be touched, that they should remain, that only the
11 women's bodies should be collected and those of children as well if any
12 were found.
13 Q. So what did you do?
14 A. We took these sacks. We collected these women, and we boarded
15 them onto the civilian truck and started out towards Prizren and returned
16 further towards Zur up there where they were taken.
17 Q. All right. And Zur is near the border with what?
18 A. I think that it is near the Albanian border, as far as I can
20 Q. All right.
21 MR. RYNEVELD: Your Honours, in the interests of time, I don't --
22 I'll just direct Your Honours' attention to page 14, K26, but I'm going to
23 continue if I may.
24 Q. Now, when you got to -- you drove towards Prizren? Where did you
25 go to? What kind of an area was it?
1 A. What do you mean what kind of an area?
2 Q. All right. I'll be --
3 A. What area?
4 Q. I'll be more specific. You left the village of Trnje with a truck
5 full of bodies of women and children and then you drove somewhere. Where
6 did you go?
7 A. We got out after Trnje to the road between Suva Reka and Prizren,
8 and that's the road we took all the way to Prizren. And then I think that
9 other soldiers joined up there from the Logistics Battalion. To be more
10 precise, from Nedeljkovic's company, those who were providing additional
11 security. Then from Prizren we set out towards Zur, and I think that from
12 Zur we went somewhere into those hills. We got there in these trucks, and
13 that is where we buried these bodies.
14 Q. Was it in a formal graveyard or was it on an asphalt road, or did
15 you go somewhere else?
16 A. I remember that we took the asphalt road to Zur, and then through
17 these hills we took macadam roads, and then about 50 or 100 metres - I
18 can't remember exactly - we drove into some bushes in the mountains, and
19 we dug a hole, where the bodies where thrown in and then covered.
20 Q. Do you know why the bodies were taken into a bush area?
21 A. As far as I know, probably so that they wouldn't be found.
22 Q. I see. All right, sir. And then afterwards, did you return to
23 your barracks or did you go somewhere else?
24 A. After that we returned to Prizren. We did not return to the
25 barracks. We returned to the town, to the houses, or to the school, where
1 we were later, that school in Prizren by the student dormitory. On those
2 locations --
3 JUDGE MAY: [Previous translation continues]... Witness K41.
4 Mr. Ryneveld, we should clarify how many bodies were buried in
5 this grave in Zur.
6 MR. RYNEVELD: Yes.
7 Q. Now, you've told us, Witness, that you collected bodies of women
8 and children and left the men. Are you able to give the Court an estimate
9 of how many bodies that you collected from the village of Trnje which were
10 subsequently buried in the bush area outside of Zur?
11 A. When we arrived in Trnje to collect the dead, I already said that
12 most had been collected already.
13 Q. Yes.
14 A. That is where we collected these women who were on the meadow near
15 that bridge, and it was visible, by the traces of blood on the ground,
16 that at least one or two bodies had been taken from there. And from
17 there, I remember at least five or six bodies of women were taken, those
18 that had not been collected already, and then we took them to where I
19 already told you about.
20 Q. So do I understand your evidence to be that you recall a total of
21 five or six bodies that were in the truck that you took to be buried in
22 the bush, or were there more?
23 A. Yes. As far as I can remember, it was five or six bodies.
24 Q. All right.
25 MR. RYNEVELD: Your Honour, I'm looking at paragraphs 35 and 36.
1 In the interests of time, I may just -- well, I'll deal with it very
3 Q. Sir, do you recall an incident in the village of Rogovo, south of
4 Orahovac, near the end of April 1999?
5 A. Yes, I do.
6 Q. Very briefly, without too much detail: Did something happen in
7 that village?
8 A. In the village of Rogovo -- well, we went there. The sergeant
9 told us to take flour, oil, and other foodstuffs, any food that we found
10 in the shops or in the cars, the shop vans --
11 Q. Yes.
12 A. -- or spare parts from the vans, to take some food, and when we
13 went round the houses, that we could take flour.
14 Q. All right. Let me interrupt you there. During the course of
15 doing that, did you hear some shots, and did you go and find out what
16 happened after you heard those shots?
17 A. I didn't understand you because there was an interruption in the
18 interpretation, so I didn't hear.
19 Q. Thank you. During the course of taking the things from the
20 village, as you've indicated, did you at some point in time hear some
21 shots being fired, and did you go and investigate as to what had happened?
22 A. Yes. At one point, when we were entering a house, when I was in a
23 house, across the road - and when I say "across the road," there was a
24 macadamised road there in the village - and in the opposite house, that is
25 to say, across the road, you could hear shots. There were shots from our
1 own automatic weapons, and you could also hear one or two bullets fired
2 which were different from ours.
3 So we left the house very quickly. The two or three of us who
4 were in the house left the house quickly and ran towards this other house,
5 from which we heard the shooting. When we ran into the house, upstairs
6 there were two of our soldiers, who told us that everything was all right
7 and that there were no more -- that is to say that everything had
8 been -- that everything was over, that we shouldn't be afraid, because the
9 shooting was done at the shooting -- the two people who were there were
10 shot at. So when they told us, what they said was when they entered the
11 house, they found two people there. One was listening to a walkman and
12 smoking a cigarette, and another one was sleeping in a corner of the room,
13 on the floor. And when they opened the door, they shot them, and they
14 were killed.
15 Q. Was there any explanation as to the sound of the other bullets
16 that you said you heard that sounded different?
17 A. Yes. The man who was standing inside the house had on
18 him - what's it called? - a jacket with bullets, rifle bullets, three or
19 four rounds with these bullets, and when our own soldiers shot at them,
20 they hit him there, and one or two of their bullets were shot from this
21 round when the bullet hit him --
22 Q. All right.
23 A. -- from the cartridge. So we -- that's what happened.
24 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Ryneveld, I think we may need to look at the
25 clock, the time the witness has had, and to allow time for
1 cross-examination so we can finish the witness today.
2 MR. RYNEVELD: I definitely want to move on relatively quickly,
3 Your Honour.
4 Q. Sir, within a week of -- I'm sorry. Just one question about
5 that. Is it true that these men that were shot were wearing KLA uniforms
6 or had some KLA insignia?
7 A. That's correct.
8 Q. All right.
9 A. One of them was wearing --
10 Q. All right. That's fine. I just want to move on, sir. Do you
11 recall an incident where you were going to be tasked with going to the
12 Tusus area, and what happened?
13 A. We were tasked to go to the -- we weren't tasked to go to the
14 Tusus area, but it was said that the army should go to Tusus, and we
15 discussed this. Soldiers Milosevic and Markovic said that they had had
16 enough, they had had their fill of all these events and couldn't go on any
17 more and carry out any more assignments. And then this reached the ears
18 of Captain Gavrilovic, who, when he heard it, made the company line up,
19 stand to attention in the corridor downstairs. And when he went out of
20 his office, he said, "Where are those two experts who are demoralising the
21 whole army?" And then he called them and said to them -- he pointed to
22 them, "You expert Milosevic, you expert Markovic, step out of the line."
23 And then he said, "Do you know that the death penalty exists in the army
24 for doing things like you did? And do you know, Milosevic, that you were
25 forgiven for not carrying out orders once?" And he took out a pistol. It
1 was a Scorpio pistol that he had at his belt. He cocked the pistol at
2 Private Markovic, placed it at his temple, and told them to go out, and in
3 front of me he told the sergeants and the soldiers from the rest of the
4 company, "Go to your assignments." He ordered them to go about their
5 daily assignments.
6 Q. And did you leave while he was still pointing the gun at
7 Markovic's head?
8 A. Yes. He was still pointing the gun at his head. And they moved
9 towards the door that was ahead of them, in front of them, the door to the
10 school. They walked in front, whereas we went into the classrooms that
11 were to the left and right of the corridor.
12 Q. Did I understand you correctly to say that all of your soldiers,
13 your company, had been gathered together to witness this incident?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. What happened the next day, if anything, with respect to what you
16 know to have happened to Markovic and Milosevic?
17 A. As far as we know, Markovic and Milosevic were taken away to the
18 basement, the cellar of the school building, where they were tied up and
19 where they spent five days. At the entrance to that cellar, there was a
20 soldier on guard, standing guard. But in the late-night hours when the
21 sergeant wasn't there, we asked the guard to let us go down and see them.
22 And I personally went down two or three times, down into the cellar to see
23 them. And they were very frightened. They didn't know what was going to
24 happen to them. And that's where they spent five days.
25 Q. Were you ever punished or disciplined by your superiors or the
1 army for being involved in the shooting incident in Trnje or any of the
2 other indents in which you participated, according to your evidence?
3 A. In the Yugoslav army, I was never disciplined for incidents of
4 that nature.
5 Q. Sir, you were warned by His Honour Judge May today, and it was
6 explained to you by me and by investigators prior to this about subjecting
7 yourself to potential legal consequences for giving self-incriminating
8 evidence; is that right?
9 A. That's right.
10 Q. You were told you had the right to a lawyer, and you said you
11 didn't want one; is that right?
12 A. That's right as well.
13 Q. And it's clear you understood you didn't have to answer any of my
14 questions today?
15 A. Yes, I understand that.
16 Q. Then why, sir, did you come forward to give your evidence?
17 A. I came forward to give my evidence because I wanted in this way to
18 express everything that is troubling me, that has been troubling me for
19 the past three years since the time I completed my service in the army.
20 The thing that I find most troubling is that never a night goes by without
21 my dreaming of that child who was hit by that bullet and who was crying.
22 And I thought that if I come forward and tell the truth that I will feel
23 easier in my soul. And that is the only reason why I am here.
24 Q. How do you feel about your participation in these events?
25 A. You mean how I feel now?
1 Q. Yes.
2 A. While I am testifying?
3 Q. No. How do you feel about what it is you did during the period
4 when you were in the army and the things you've testified about?
5 A. About that period, I think that very shameful acts were
7 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter apologises. I think the word
8 was "shameful."
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I deeply regret that something like
10 that happened.
11 MR. RYNEVELD:
12 Q. Thank you. Those are my questions, Witness.
13 JUDGE MAY: Witness K41, you're now going to be asked some
14 questions by the accused. Make sure you understand the questions before
15 you answer them. If you don't understand them, say so. If you don't
16 answer -- if you don't know the answer or you can't remember, say so.
17 Mr. Milosevic.
18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May, as it's already a quarter
19 to twelve, tell me, please, how much time I'm to be given for the
20 cross-examination of this witness.
21 JUDGE MAY: You can have the same as the Prosecution. You can
22 have for the rest of today.
23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well. Let me just see him.
24 Cross-examined by Mr. Milosevic:
9 A. I don't know that, no. All I know is that they came looking for
10 me to my home, and my brother said they had come looking for me but that
11 they didn't tell him why they were looking for me. But they didn't come
12 again after that one time.
13 Q. All right, K41. Do you know why a warrant for your arrest was
15 A. Mr. Milosevic, I do not know why.
16 Q. And do you know that a warrant was issued for your arrest because
17 you committed a crime, (redacted)
4 JUDGE MAY: He knows nothing about it. He's told you. And there
5 is absolutely no good reason for mentioning any of this, particularly in
6 open session. If you have any further questions about this, we're going
7 into closed session.
8 Now, you've got his answer. He knows nothing about it. Do you
9 want to ask him anything more?
10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Of course I have many questions,
11 Mr. May, with respect to his testimony, but --
12 JUDGE MAY: You can go on and ask questions about other topics,
14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I have the right to question the
15 credibility of this witness and to test it, and quite obviously we're
16 dealing with a criminal here.
17 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Ryneveld.
18 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you, Your Honour. I just want to say that
19 many of the questions so far, including numbers of alleged warrants, ought
20 be redacted. Just that whole -- might we have that whole aspect redacted
21 because it might tend to identify the witness?
22 JUDGE MAY: Yes.
23 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you.
24 JUDGE MAY: Now, Mr. Milosevic, on a different topic.
25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well, Mr. May.
12 Blank pages inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts. Pages 9808 to 9814.
1 Q. As we have established the credibility of this witness, then I can
2 move on to another topic.
3 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
4 Q. K41, you were first interviewed, you were first asked about the
5 activities of your unit at the Ljubizda Has village. That was before the
6 NATO aggression, at the time when you provided security for that border
7 belt, the border area; isn't that right?
8 A. We did not provide security, Milosevic, for that border belt. It
9 was our assignment, as I said. That is to say, I told you what our
10 company's tasks were. And we were just given the task, that is to say, we
11 were told to go and have a show of force, to demonstrate our might in the
12 area. But this proved to be quite incorrect, because that's not what
13 we're doing. We weren't having a show of force. We went there to do what
14 I recounted earlier on.
15 JUDGE MAY: Witness K41, I know this is difficult because the
16 accused is asking the questions. Do not reply to him. Do not call him by
17 name. You are giving evidence to the Court, not to him. Now, would you
18 bear that in mind, please.
19 Yes. Next question.
20 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
21 Q. According to your own testimony, you were in an ambush at the
22 Ljubizda Has village, which on the map, map 10, number 10, was shown. And
23 according to the scale of the map, you can see that you had set up an
24 ambush somewhere towards the border. You said that you were in an ambush
25 up above the village of Has. And it is just four kilometres away from the
1 state border with Albania. So you manned that ambush. It was a
2 legitimate ambush.
3 Was there any kind of engagement while you were in that ambush?
4 A. On that occasion, we had come from the barracks in the early
5 morning hours. We were placed on the alert. We were told what I said.
6 We passed through the village of Ljubizda Has and went up above the
7 village where they told us to set up an ambush above the village and that
8 anybody coming in or passing by, and there's the Pastrik mountain there,
9 anybody coming down from the mountain should be shot at.
10 Q. All right. You didn't say that you actually shot at anyone. You
11 didn't tell us that.
12 A. Mr. Milosevic, at that time, while we were in that ambush on that
13 first day, we didn't shoot at anyone. In the evening, when we returned to
14 the houses where the villagers -- from which the villagers had been
15 expelled, when we were in the houses, the military police brought in a
16 young man, and they had put the upper part of a KLA uniform on him and the
17 man was shot through the leg. And during the night, when they were
18 transporting him back to the barracks, this young man was killed.
19 After that, the next day, while we were standing and manning the
20 ambush above the village, a man came by wearing a civilian uniform, and
21 the people manning the ambush started shooting at him, but the man raised
22 his hands up in the air and he was captured and turned over to Lieutenant
23 Colonel Konjikovac in the village of Ljubizda.
24 Q. Very well. During the examination-in-chief, you said that you
25 manned the ambush at Ljubizda Has, which means that this is up in the
1 mountains, along the border belt towards Albania, and you said you spent
2 the night in the houses, in the village houses, and that's what you
3 explained. Then you went on to say how -- then you went on to describe
4 the events in the village of Jeskovo, which was also, as far as I could
5 see from all these facts, somewhere -- it took place around the 11th of
6 March, 1999, from 0400 hours. Is that right?
7 A. As far as I remember, it was in February, but I don't remember the
8 exact date.
9 Q. Very well. Let's say it was in February. That's not the
10 important point. K41, is it true that during the operation conducted in
11 the village of Jeskovo, you were not able to see the bodies of ten people,
12 but just three terrorists, which was the number of dead bodies that your
13 commander saw? Is that correct or not?
14 A. It is not correct.
15 Q. All right. Now, do you happen to know that this event was
16 attended by the representatives of the Verification Mission, the OSCE
17 Verification Mission, from its regional centre in Prizren, and that they
18 conducted a verification spot-check on the very location? Do you know
20 A. I do not know about that, because I wasn't there -- it wasn't my
21 place to know who would come in to verify what. I was there as a soldier,
22 and I had my own commander and I received orders which I had to carry out,
23 and that's why I was there.
24 Q. All right. But you spoke about Jeskovo, so I'm asking you whether
25 you know, as you are giving exhaustive details here, that nine killed
1 terrorists were ascertained to be on the spot, wearing uniforms and
2 carrying weapons. Do you know about that?
3 A. Mr. Milosevic, as far as I know, in that operation about 30
4 individuals were killed. On the basis of what I saw, none of them were
5 wearing uniforms. I didn't see anybody in uniform or with weapons
6 belonging to an army. All I saw was a hunting rifle that one of them had,
7 one of the people that had been taken into custody had had. That's what I
8 heard with my own ears and saw with my own eyes, Mr. Milosevic.
9 Q. Very well, K41. As you do not know about the Verification Mission
10 and the verification itself, did you learn that General Maisonneuve, the
11 head of the regional centre in Prizren, was apprised of this, as well as
12 his associates?
13 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Milosevic, there's no point putting that. He
14 doesn't know. He said he was just an ordinary soldier, he didn't know
15 about the OSCE. You can put the evidence in front of us in due course, if
16 you want.
17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, Mr. May, I'm asking him about
18 something that he seems to allege in a very assertive manner, and we're
19 talking about a legitimate ambush at Ljubizda Has and an operation at
20 Jeskovo that was verified by the Verification Mission itself, and I have a
21 whole list of individuals from Poland, Finland, Russia, who were there.
22 JUDGE MAY: I'm going to stop you. It's pointless going on like
23 this. He doesn't know. Now, you can put the report in front of us in due
24 course, but for the moment you're examining this witness and he's given
25 you his evidence. Now, is there anything more you want to ask about the
2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I don't know why you're asking me
3 that. Of course I have a large number of questions, because this witness,
4 like many others, is a false witness.
5 JUDGE MAY: Put your questions and don't comment.
6 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
7 Q. Was this the description, roughly speaking, of the events:
8 We divided up in teams, went from house to house. I was present
9 when Sergeant Rajko Kozlina took out a whole family from a house. There
10 were at least 15 of them, of all ages, from babies held by their mothers
11 up to a 70-year-old elderly man. In addition to this old man and a young
12 boy, there were no other males. Actually, in the whole village, not a
13 single male was found.
14 That is approximately what you have been describing, isn't it?
15 A. No, that is not it, Mr. Milosevic. I did not say that Rajko
16 Kozlina took out whole families out of houses. They were taken out by the
17 army, by the soldiers. We soldiers took them out, Mr. Milosevic. And it
18 is not correct what you are claiming that in the whole village there was
19 only one man.
20 Q. That's not what I'm claiming. I'm just describing the event to
21 you according to the description given by Witness K32, because
22 Mr. Ryneveld cautioned you at the beginning of your testimony that you
23 have the name and surname of the witness - you said you knew him - and
24 that you should mention him as K32 and not his name. And he testified
25 about the very same event, didn't he? So I'm reading part of his
1 testimony to you.
2 A. Well, what he saw and heard --
3 JUDGE MAY: Witness K41, I think you were going to answer in the
4 same way.
5 The witness can't comment on what somebody else said. All he can
6 talk about is his own evidence, and that's what he's told you.
7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, that's precisely what I'm
8 asking, whether that is the incident. He says that they shot at the
9 entire group, that he heard shooting, that they killed these 15 persons.
10 He mentions a baby. So it is same incident that is described. In other
11 words --
12 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter cannot hear it.
13 JUDGE MAY: Which village are you talking about now?
14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May, I am first of all speaking
15 about the event itself, and I wish to show that these witnesses did not
16 reach the right kind of agreement when they were supposed to tell these
18 JUDGE MAY: That, Mr. Milosevic, is an allegation which should be
19 put to the witness, and then we'll come back and clarify what it is you're
20 asking about, because it's by no means clear.
21 Witness K41, what the accused has alleged is that you and another
22 witness have put your heads together to invent a false story. Now, that's
23 the allegation made by the accused. Is there any truth in it or not?
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That is a pure falsehood. I am just
25 talking about what I saw and what I heard.
1 JUDGE MAY: Very well. Now we'll go back to the
3 Now, which village are you asking about?
4 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May, may I clarify this once
5 again, please? Is what K32 claims true, after this other event that
6 you're speaking of?
7 JUDGE MAY: I'm going to stop you. You are confusing everybody.
8 I don't know whether you're doing it deliberately or not. I have asked
9 you a simple question. You have refused to answer. Now, if you want to
10 continue with this cross-examination, you must do so in a way which is
11 clear and fair to the witness and also clear to the Court. Now, which
12 village are you asking questions about?
13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May, I'm asking about the event,
14 because both of them are talking about the same event. For example,
15 K32 --
16 JUDGE MAY: No. It doesn't matter about K32. You're being asked
17 a straightforward question to clarify your examination for the Court, and
18 the Court has a right to be told, and the witness, what you're asking
19 about. You see, I suspect that you're trying to confuse him by going from
20 village to village, particularly when you refer to the 15 people who were
21 killed. Now, it's a matter for you. If you want to continue this
22 cross-examination, you must tell us which village and tell the witness
23 which village you're asking about. Are you asking about Trnje?
24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I will tell you, Mr. May. I will
25 tell you and the witness and all of those who are watching this. An
1 identical event, an identical story, is recounted by K32 and K41, except
2 that K32 refers to the village of Medvedje, and this witness refers to
3 this same event as an event taking place in Trnje. Please, take a look at
4 this. You have it on page 03 --
5 JUDGE MAY: Look, you can make these points to us. You can argue
6 all this in due course, but this isn't a matter for this witness. This
7 witness has given his account. He's told you what he says happened in
8 Trnje, that he saw and heard and participated in. Now, that's his
9 evidence. Now, that's what you can ask him about. You can't ask him
10 about what some other witness said. If you say there were discrepancies
11 between them, you can point that out to us.
12 Now, you were asking about Jeskovo, but I understand now you're
13 going on to Trnje. Ask the witness some questions about what he saw or
15 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation] All right.
16 Q. When, as you say, Captain Gavrilovic ordered you to collect all
17 the women's and children's bodies - however, the bodies of the children
18 and of most of the women were not there - you collected the bodies of five
19 persons and boarded them onto the truck; is that right? Is that what you
20 were saying a few minutes ago?
21 A. Yes. When we arrived in Trnje, in the yard where those 15 or so
22 persons were killed, as far as I can remember - I think it is about 15
23 persons - in that yard there was no one. None of them were there.
24 However, there was visible blood in the places where they had been. And
25 it is correct that only five or six women were collected, and one or two
1 bodies were taken from that place.
2 Q. All right. On the orders of Captain Gavrilovic, you went and
3 collected that. Well, now I'm asking you to comment upon the following:
4 K32 says the same thing; however, he says that this is the village of
5 Medvedje. Was this in the village of Medvedje or the village of Trnje?
6 A. This was in the village of Trnje.
7 Q. All right. This is what I have been speaking about. All right.
8 Let's not debate the issue any further, because obviously the same event,
9 or rather, the same story, could not be told about two villages. But
10 let's move on.
11 You said that Captain Gavrilovic came to the Logistics Battalion
12 on the 23rd and announced an action in the evening. Is that what you
14 A. That's not correct.
15 Q. What is correct?
16 A. What is correct is that he came in the evening, during the night,
17 when the NATO bombing started, at 9.00 or 10.00. He came to the Logistics
18 Battalion and he ordered that soldiers be issued with ammunition and
19 everything else that is necessary, and that on the next day we would be
21 Q. All right. Is it correct, since you were the Logistics Battalion,
22 that actually you did not even participate in some combat operations;
23 rather, you supplied the army with food, water, and everything else they
24 needed, and that on this occasion you were only charged -- you were only
25 in charge of blocking that hill above the village of Trnje? Is that right
1 or is that not right?
2 A. Mr. Milosevic, from the month of December -- as I mentioned, from
3 the month of December we started going into these actions that I referred
4 to before. This was no longer the Logistics Battalion that only provides
5 logistical support. It is not only duties that the Technical Company is
6 supposed to carry out.
7 Q. All right. All right, K41. Is it correct that at that place you
8 spent -- or rather, this was 500 or 600 metres away from the village of
9 Trnje, that in front of you there were fields, that it was foggy, that you
10 spent four or five days in that place, and that during that time the unit
11 only carried out this blockade, without engaging in any movement or combat
13 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter did not hear the answer.
14 A. That is not correct. I described the event in detail a few
15 minutes ago when the Prosecutor was putting questions to me. Do I have to
16 repeat all of the same things as well, why we were there, what the orders
17 were, and what we were doing there?
18 JUDGE MAY: K41, I know it's difficult to be cross-examined and
19 challenged in this way, but the accused is entitled to ask you some
20 questions about your evidence, and provided they're proper questions,
21 would you try and answer them.
22 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
23 Q. All right. K41, I have here a statement of then Captain First
24 Class Major Pavle Gavrilovic in which he says: "Every member of the
25 battalion bore in mind a reminder of the rules of conduct for fighters
1 that I got from the superior command which clearly establishes how
2 wounded -- how the wounded and how prisoners of war and civilians should
3 be treated and which provides basic rules for behaviour in combat as well
4 as basic humanitarian law. We do not have any information to the effect
5 that any of the members of the unit that I commanded behaved contrary to
6 the mentioned rule."
7 Is that true or is that not true, Witness K41?
8 A. Mr. Milosevic, that is not true. That is what all the soldiers
9 from the Logistics Battalion know, not only me. And none of us had this
10 handbook that you're referring to, Mr. Milosevic.
11 Q. All right. I have here an order of the commander of the 549th
12 Brigade signed and stamped by Colonel Bozidar Delic. It's a three-page
13 document dated the 4th of February, 1999. It had to have been read out to
14 you, the order of the commander of the brigade.
15 Under item 12 of that order issued by Colonel Delic it says --
16 please pay attention to this and tell me whether you remember that this
17 order was read out to you. The order is from the 4th of February, 1999.
18 Point 12 says: "The entire brigade should be informed about the
19 military political situations, the intentions and the objectives of the
20 NATO forces and the Siptar units and the possible effects of enemy moral
21 and political efforts should be made known to all."
22 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter cannot follow the pace of the
23 reading. We're sorry.
24 JUDGE MAY: Slow down in the reading.
25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The question is whether he is aware
1 of the order. And I'm just reading one item.
2 "The entire brigade should be made aware of the provisions.
3 Geneva Convention and treatment of prisoners and wounded from the enemy
4 forces. The deadline is the 8th of February, 1999. This is an ongoing
5 assignment, a permanent assignment."
6 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
7 Q. Were you made aware of that, K41?
8 A. Mr. Milosevic, I am not aware of that nor was this ever read. I
9 never heard about that while I was in Prizren in the army of Yugoslavia.
10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right. Since in this order is
11 the deployment of units, the mainstays, et cetera, including this
12 particular item that is highlighted, I think that it should be exhibited
13 here, that it should become part of the evidence, unless you refuse that
14 as well. But I do have other questions.
15 JUDGE MAY: Yes. You can hand in the document. It will be marked
16 for identification, and if there's no dispute about it, it will be
18 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
19 Q. All right. A short while ago I read a brief quotation to you from
20 the statement of Major Pavle Gavrilovic, who was then a captain first
21 class and commander. You said that that is not correct, what he said,
22 that is. You have the statement of Nedeljkovic, sergeant first class.
23 I'm not going to read it out to you, not all of it. He says only
24 the following: "The unit was commanded by Pavle Gavrilovic, Captain First
25 Class, and he issued clear orders to us in cutting off the channels of
1 communication and behaving towards prisoners and civilians, and each and
2 every one of us had 'Rules for Combatants.' The group of soldiers that I
3 commanded did not carry out any movements and did not enter any built-up
4 areas. I personally did not hear of anyone from my unit not respecting
5 the 'Rules for Combatants' that we got from the superior command."
6 So your commander, Sergeant First Class Milan Nedeljkovic, says
7 that you did not carry out any movements and that you did not enter
8 built-up areas at all. Is that correct or is that not correct?
9 JUDGE MAY: There's one matter first of all. As I understand it,
10 the commander was, in fact, Kozlina and not the man you're mentioning.
11 Is that right, K41?
12 A. Yes, that is right. Nedeljkovic was commander for the
13 Quatermasters Company.
14 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
15 Q. All right. Was he your superior officer in this company as well?
16 A. He was the commanding officer for his platoon. And in my platoon
17 it was my own sergeant.
18 Q. All right. I also have the statement of Muhamed Fejzic. You call
19 him Miroslav Fejzic. He's not Miroslav. It is Muhamed Fejzic, Senior
20 Sergeant. You also mentioned him.
21 He says: "None of us went or -- went to or enter the village of
22 Mamusa." And he explains that the direction of movement was Prizren,
23 Ljubizda, Novake and the ultimate objective, the vineyards above the
24 village of Novake or, rather, the hill above Trnje. We saw on the map
25 that this hill is between the villages of Novake and Trnje. And these
1 officers from your company say that you kept that hill under blockade,
2 that you were not engaged in combat, and that you did not enter built-up
4 Muhamed Fejzic says here that --
5 JUDGE MAY: Well, just a moment.
6 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
7 Q. -- no one --
8 JUDGE MAY: Just a moment. You must allow the witness to deal
9 with these matters.
10 Witness K41, what is now alleged is that you kept a hill under
11 blockade, you were not engaged in combat, and you didn't enter built-up
12 areas. Is that true or not?
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'll explain this to you, Your
14 Honour. I did explain it awhile ago as well. When we arrived at that
15 hill, Sergeant Fejzic remained there with his soldiers on that hill. And
16 Sergeant Nedeljkovic and Sergeant Kozlina set out to Trnje, the village of
17 Trnje. That's the truth. And that is how the situation evolved on the
18 ground where I was.
19 Mr. Milosevic, what you have written down there is something that
20 I'm not going to go into. I'm just saying what I saw and what I heard
21 about where I was.
22 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
23 Q. All right. Senior Sergeant Muhamed Fejzic says further on:
24 "During 1998 and 1999, in the midst of the most pronounced actions by the
25 Siptar forces, each and every one of the soldiers was cautioned by
1 Colonel Delic and his associates as well as the commanding officers of the
2 units to respect the human rights and all other rights of all the
3 inhabitants within the area of responsibility of the commander of the
4 brigade regardless of where the unit was."
5 Is that correct or is that not correct?
6 A. No.
7 Q. All right. You say that you did not even meet or, rather, you did
8 not even clash with the KLA, that did you not see them, that you were not
9 engaged in any combat, that you were just going and killing babies, women,
10 and children.
11 Please show on the ELMO this KFOR confidential. You see "K
12 Brigade location." This was drawn up immediately after the war, and it
13 shows the area of responsibility of this brigade where K41 was. Each and
14 every one of these flags depicts a brigade, and this is a list of
15 locations and a list of all brigades in those seven zones that I tried to
16 prove here that they exist, that the KLA did have them. And this is a
17 KFOR document showing -- you see "K Brigade locations," just so that you
18 would see how many brigade there were and where they were.
19 JUDGE MAY: Just pass it to the Tribunal.
20 [Trial Chamber confers]
21 JUDGE MAY: The Prosecution can have a look at this during the
22 adjournment which we will take now.
23 Witness K41, we're going to adjourn again for 20 minutes. When we
24 come back, we'll deal with this question.
25 Twenty minutes.
1 --- Recess taken at 12.22 p.m.
2 --- On resuming at 12.45 p.m.
3 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Ryneveld.
4 MR. RYNEVELD: Yes, Your Honours. Just before we continue, if I
5 may, there's one thing that I'm not going to re-examine upon, but I think,
6 for the record, we should put -- the accused has put to this witness about
7 K32's reference to a different community. I just want to bring the
8 Court's attention to paragraph 14 of the summary of K32, where he
9 corrected his original statement, and also at page 8237, he refers to the
10 village of Trnje. So -- and the accused had that evidence, and I
11 just -- in fairness to the present witness, I want to bring that to the
12 accused's attention as well.
13 JUDGE KWON: To clarify, the page number is 8236 where Trnje
14 appears in the transcript.
15 MR. RYNEVELD: Your Honour, I'm also looking at page 8237, in
16 chief, at line 8, but this may be a different --
17 JUDGE KWON: It's the same thing, yes.
18 MR. RYNEVELD: And paragraph 14 of the summary, it's also pointed
19 out that there was a corrected statement. Thank you.
20 JUDGE MAY: Inquiries are being made to see whether we can sit a
21 bit later this afternoon to finish this witness. Meanwhile,
22 Mr. Milosevic, you wanted a document put on the ELMO.
23 Can you see that, K41?
24 Obviously not. See if we can have some arrangement made.
25 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
1 JUDGE MAY: I'm told that the witness can see it, but it's
2 difficult to read.
3 Mr. Milosevic, perhaps you'd like to ask the witness the question
4 that you want about that document, and we'll see if we can get anywhere
5 with it.
6 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
7 Q. K41, as we were saying, do you know what the concentration of
8 forces of the KLA was precisely in the area of responsibility of your
9 particular brigade? Yes or no. That's all I'm asking.
10 A. No.
11 Q. And do you know how many soldiers from your own brigade died in
12 the fighting with the KLA terrorist forces during the time you were in the
13 brigade, in that Logistics Battalion, in the rear?
14 A. I don't know how many soldiers were killed from the brigade. I
15 don't know that. I do know that from the Logistics Battalion, in all the
16 fighting with the KLA, there were no losses, no losses to soldiers
17 belonging to our battalion, that is.
18 Q. Well, as regards the Logistics Battalion, the Logistics Battalion
19 wasn't engaged in the fighting, so there were no persons killed. But
20 other battalions were not rear-line battalions. What I'm asking you is
21 the brigade, about the brigade, because you worked with the entire
22 brigade. The Logistics Battalion did its job and work catering to the
23 entire brigade.
24 A. As far as the brigade is concerned, I don't know about any
25 casualties. All I can tell you is about my particular battalion. That's
1 what I know about. And I know that when we would engage in these
2 operations, there were no casualties.
3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right. Mr. May, as Mr. Ryneveld
4 objected when I mentioned a detail in connection with this witness - and
5 that is his right. He has right to do so, of course, because he is
6 protecting the identity of his witness - could you just -- could we move
7 into private session for just one moment for me to show you that the
8 witness has not been telling the truth about other matters either?
9 JUDGE MAY: Yes. We'll go into private session.
10 [Private session]
12 Page 9833 redacted, private session.
15 [Open session]
16 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're in open session.
17 JUDGE MAY: Now, we have got the courtroom for longer this
18 afternoon. If you want to play the tape, you can play it.
19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, it would take up too much
20 time, so I'm just going to ask something. And I will to tender the tape.
21 I'll hand it in to you.
22 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
23 Q. Do you know that it was precisely in the area of the village of
24 Trnje that your brigade, together with the villagers, in the autumn of
25 1998 after the defeat of the KLA, built roads to help the population and
1 that they were Albanian villages principally and that they were helped out
2 by the Engineering Battalion, by the mechanised equipment, and some of the
3 soldiers can be seen working alongside the Albanians from the villages
4 building those roads? And we have statements to the effect that the army
5 was helping them and that they were cooperating very well.
6 Do you remember that autumn of 1998 and those works that were
7 going on at the time?
8 A. Your Honours, in the autumn of 1998, we were building roads but
9 roads that led to watchtowers, the border huts. And the Albanians helped
10 us in this construction work. Whether they came of their own free will or
11 were made to do so, I don't know, but they would bring in their tractors
12 to help us transport the sand that we needed to cover the road surfaces
13 with. That's all I know about that.
14 Q. All right. And do you know that in the operation that I just
15 mentioned -- in the operation I mentioned, the one that was verified by
16 the OSCE verifications, that not a single civilian lost their lives in the
17 fighting around Leskovo? Do you know that? Are you aware of that?
18 A. I can claim that the ten that I saw were people wearing civilian
19 uniforms. As to the rest, I can't say anything because I didn't see
21 Q. All right. Now, on the tape we have the village of Leskovo where
22 a large number of weapons and ammunition was seized. And the third
23 contribution on that tape, the third section of the tape, relates to
24 this: You claim that you set fire to houses in Mamusa and that not a
25 single house in Mamusa was set fire to either by our own forces or by the
1 KLA forces, as far as my records show. And on the tape, I have statements
2 by the inhabitants of the village of Mamusa when the police arrived in
3 Mamusa village and liberated them from the terror that was exerted over
4 them by members of the KLA and asked them for 500 marks for each truck to
5 enter and 300 marks for cars to boot and that it was much easier for them
6 once the police force had arrived. And they asked the police force to
7 patrol in Mamusa more frequently so as not to be exposed to KLA terror of
8 that kind. Are you aware of that?
9 A. The only thing that I know about is that when we arrived, when we
10 came to within 400 to 500 metres of the body -- of the village that they
11 told us was called Mamusa, the first seven to eight houses which were in
12 this periphery were shelled by an anti-aircraft gun and were later on set
13 fire to. That's what I know about that.
14 Q. All right, K4. You said this the anti-aircraft gun that you call
15 a three-barrelled gun, it is the Bertov [As interpreted] 20 --
16 millimetres. It is that kind of three-barrelled weapon. That it opened
17 fire for some 20 minutes you said. Is that right?
18 A. Yes, approximately 20 minutes. This went on in the village for
19 about 20 minutes.
20 Q. And do you know, K41, that the speed of fire of that gun is 2.100
21 shells per minute, which means 800 -- to all intents and purposes, 800
22 shells per minute. Are you clear on the fact that they would have needed
23 1.6000 shells if they had fired for 20 minutes and if what you were saying
24 were correct?
25 A. Mr. Milosevic, you don't seem to know that there was individual
1 gunfire there apart from this anti-aircraft gun. And this anti-aircraft
2 gun can individually target targets or houses with one, two, or three
4 Q. All right. And if the shooting went on for 20 minutes, then it
5 means that it fired in the way it was capable of doing so, technically
6 speaking. So how was this gun -- how did the shooting of this gun take
7 place when it fired individually?
8 A. I can't say how it shot individually, but I do know that it used
9 individual shots to target the village, Mr. Milosevic, because I was
11 Q. All right. How many shells would that be then fired by that gun
12 in those 20 minutes when it was sporadically firing individual gunshots?
13 How many?
14 A. Perhaps -- well, I can't really say. I don't know. I'm not quite
15 sure how many. I can't calculate all this now.
16 Q. All right. You say that the villagers from the village of Trnje
17 went on foot towards the village of Lesane; is that correct?
18 A. That is correct, yes.
19 Q. Very well. The village of Lesane was behind your back. So how
20 come you let one lot go out and leave and you killed another lot?
21 A. That's not true. That's not correct. The villagers who were
22 fleeing fled to the right of us taking the road and to the left of us
23 taking the creek. That is what is correct. And they didn't go to the
24 rear behind us because they would have gone in the direction of the
25 village of Novake had they done so.
1 Q. All right. So they fled to the right of you. Let me repeat my
2 question. How come you let one lot flee and not another lot? You killed
3 the other lot, whereas you let one lot go free.
4 A. Mr. Milosevic, people were fleeing, hiding behind houses. Do you
5 know what it looks like? Do you know what the configuration of the
6 terrain is like? Of course you don't. You don't know the lie of the
7 land. But those of us who were there know what it was like. And once
8 they get behind a house, you're no longer able to see them going to Lesane
9 and the creek.
10 Q. In your statement you say that you entered the houses and that you
11 would then set fire to them afterwards. Is that right?
12 A. Yes. We did enter the houses and the houses were set fire to.
13 Q. Tell me now, please, who issued the orders to burn the houses?
14 A. The orders were issued by the sergeant who was with us. He
15 indicated the exact house that each of us were to torch when he was able
16 to point them out to us.
17 Q. All right. You say in your statement that Kozlina gathered
18 together your company, Kozlina his company, et cetera, and the other two
19 their own. Is that right?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Well, how were they able to gather together their companies when
22 they were just commanders of squads, not even commanders of platoons but
23 squad commanders?
24 A. Well, I explained that, and I said that once the order had been
25 issued by Pavle Gavrilovic, Sergeant Kozlina turned towards us and told us
1 to rally our ranks. And after that, the members of our company gathered
2 together, and he led the way and we carried on after him down towards
4 Q. Yes. But you said that your -- that about 80 people, 80 soldiers,
5 took part in that operation launched by your battalion. Now, can you
6 imagine three companies with only 80 soldiers?
7 A. Yes, I can. What's to be challenged there? I don't understand
8 what you're getting at.
9 Q. Well, I assume you know that one company does not only have 80
10 soldiers but many more men. And you said that they collected together
11 three companies so that there were 80 soldiers.
12 A. Well, do you know that many soldiers from our companies were
13 manning the watchtowers? They were on assignment and their posts at the
15 Q. All right. Now, do you know this: that a unit under a blockade or
16 in a blockade like yours was not given the assignment of drawing closer to
17 Mamusa and that there was fighting in the Brestovac, Velika Krusa,
18 Retimlje, Opterusa, Studencani, Mamusa region until the afternoon of the
19 27th of March, 1999? Are you aware of that? Is that correct or not?
20 A. No, it is not correct. Because as I have already stated -- I
21 don't want to repeat myself and explain again what happened, you have
22 it -- you have the description in my statement. And that's how it was, as
23 I stated.
24 Q. And when did you say -- you say you saw a tank and a Praga. On
25 what date was this? When did you see the tank and the Praga?
1 A. We saw it -- the date was -- that night. I can't remember the
2 exact date, but on the night that the NATO bombing started. This was on
3 the next day, in the morning, when we went past Trnje and arrived at the
4 bridge and when we left Trnje. That's when you could see it, on the
5 northern hillside, a tank and a Praga.
6 Q. In the statement that we have, before the 27th, that is to say
7 before the fighting ceased, from your positions you were not able to see
8 any tanks at all because above the village of Neprebiste on the hills
9 surrounding the village that they appeared, and that's when they were
10 visible from the village of Trnje, only after the 27th. So perhaps you
11 got that wrong.
12 A. No, I did not, Mr. Milosevic.
13 Q. Very well.
14 A. I saw it with my own eyes, whereas what you heard, perhaps they
15 gave you the wrong information and the wrong facts. Perhaps that is
17 Q. All right. I shall be tendering the tape with the three excerpts
18 on it. And now I should like to move on.
19 Let me ask you this. I'm not quite clear. Did you just set fire
20 to the houses where you saw the curtains moving at the windows which
21 indicated that there was someone in the house or did you take the houses
22 in order one by one and set fire to them?
23 A. The houses were burnt in order, one by one.
24 Q. I didn't understand you. What were you saying?
25 A. The houses were burnt one by one.
1 Q. Do you want -- are you saying that you burnt the houses in
3 A. Mr. Milosevic, I have told you quite specifically that on the
4 periphery of Mamusa eight houses were burnt which were targeted by the
5 anti-aircraft gun first and they were torched later. So those were the
6 only houses that were burnt. So when I say "we," we soldiers who were
7 there later on with our soldier -- with our sergeant returned to where our
8 company had put up. So you needn't say that that was in Mamusa because it
9 wasn't. It was in the village of Trnje this burning one by one.
10 Q. All right. And do you know that up until the 25th of March, in
11 the village of Trnje, there were no soldiers and no police either?
12 A. I don't know that.
13 Q. And could you comment as to why a soldier from your company said
14 that you were deployed in positions around Trnje on the 4th of April?
15 Which of the two is correct?
16 A. It is true that we were deployed on the morning after the NATO
17 bombing began, so at dawn the next morning. We reached the reaches of the
18 hills above the village. That's when we arrived. I can't tell you the
19 exact date. I don't want to guess. But I do know that it was on that
20 particular night and at dawn the next morning.
21 Q. All right. On page 3, paragraph 2 of your statement, you say that
22 you took position up at the hill but outside the line of vision of the
23 village. That's what you say. Is that correct?
24 A. We took up our positions on the hill, and an anti-aircraft gun was
25 positioned there, and he could see the village as if it was in the palm of
1 your hand and he was able to be effective from there, whereas the trucks
2 that we arrived in were placed behind the hill so that they would be out
3 of sight of the village.
4 Q. Very well. How were you able to see -- you say that you were
5 outside of the line of vision of the village. How were you able to target
6 the village if you weren't able to see it, if you weren't in that line of
8 A. Sir, I've already explained that to you. We were not outside the
9 line of sight of the village. We were in sight of the village. We were
10 on the hill above the village and positioned the anti-aircraft weapon up
11 there on the hill so that it could target the village. I didn't position
12 the anti-aircraft weapon; the soldiers in charge of it did. We were
13 there, but we just took the trucks out of sight. It wasn't that we were
14 out of sight; the trucks were placed out of sight.
1 (redacted). The
2 shelling of the village, as you say, from the anti-aircraft weapon, did it
3 begin before or after that particular incident?
4 A. The shelling started afterwards, while we were taking up our
5 positions in the outskirts of the village. That's when the man was
6 killed, the man you just mentioned.
7 Q. All right. Was it then that you noticed that some people were
8 leaving the village and fleeing towards the Lesane village area?
9 A. No. Only when the anti-aircraft gun began to fire.
10 Q. Right. So when the gun began to fire, you noticed that people
11 were fleeing in the direction of the village of Lesane; is that it? Have
12 I understood you correctly?
13 A. Yes. The people were trying to escape, and we could see two or
14 three people at a time fleeing down in between the houses, and from where
15 I was standing, I saw that they were escaping towards Lesane and towards
16 the creek.
17 Q. And did you open fire on them? Did you shoot at them?
18 A. No, we did not shoot at them until the shelling went on. It was
19 only when the shelling ceased and when we started cleaning up the village.
20 Q. Well, how come you didn't shoot at them if you were given orders
21 to kill them all? How can you explain that, then?
22 A. Well, I explained that in the following way: That was what I had
23 seen. Had I not been ordered to shoot, I would never have shot at
24 civilians. So it was the people that I saw fleeing myself. Perhaps some
25 other soldiers saw them. Perhaps the commanding officer did not see these
1 people fleeing because of the configuration of the terrain.
2 Q. All right. Now, you have represented this sergeant, Sergeant
3 Kozlina, like a beast, going around killing anything in sight, and you
4 said that the four or five of you stayed with him, as you were told to do,
5 as he told you to do. Is that right?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. So which soldiers stayed with you? Give us their names, please.
8 A. I remained, Sergeant Kozlina remained behind, then there was
9 Private Markovic and two other soldiers whose names I cannot remember.
10 Q. What about this witness K32? Did he stay behind with you as well?
11 A. I did not see him. I do not remember having seen him at that
12 time, and I don't think he was there. I don't think he was in the group
13 that remained behind.
14 Q. So according to what you say, he wasn't with you. Now, tell us
15 the first name and last name of the soldier whom you say, on page 4,
16 paragraph 6, broke the windows of a house and then proceeded to throw a
17 hand grenade into the house.
18 A. I can't tell you that, because us soldiers had some caps on.
19 Others had some shields. And once two companies had gathered together at
20 a distance of 50 metres. I was not able to see which soldiers were there
22 Q. All right. So if you didn't see that, you can't tell us. Now,
23 tell me this: How many houses did you personally set fire to in Trnje?
24 A. I don't remember exactly.
25 Q. Approximately. Give us a rough estimation.
1 A. Two or three houses perhaps.
2 Q. Tell me: How many houses does the village of Trnje comprise,
3 roughly speaking?
4 A. Well, I can't tell you exactly because -- I don't know. I can't
6 Q. All right. But you were able to see whether it was a big village
7 or a small village, whether it comprised of 5 houses, 50 houses, or 500
8 houses. So give us a rough estimate.
9 A. Perhaps a hundred houses, I would say.
10 Q. Oh, a hundred houses.
11 A. Yes. I'm saying this, although I'm not quite certain, but 50, a
12 hundred. That's what I seem to remember. I was just there once in that
13 village of Trnje, on that particular occasion and never again, and it's
14 been three and a half years since that time.
15 Q. Did I remember correctly? On page 5, paragraph 3, you state that
16 Lieutenant Jacimovic, when you saw a group of people on the other side of
17 the creek, women and children, that you were told to let them go, whereas
18 he kept back several men. Is that what you state?
19 A. No. Lieutenant Jacimovic only asked that these people be allowed
20 to leave, the women and children. Now, who issued the orders, I didn't
21 hear. I didn't hear who issued the orders for these five men to be kept
22 behind. All he said was that the women and children should be allowed to
23 leave. And there was an invalid amongst them, a crippled man, that I
24 remember being there.
25 Q. All right. How come now Jacimovic is issuing orders all of a
1 sudden, whereas you previously state that all the orders were issued by
2 Sergeant Kozlina? Who was in command, in actual fact? Was it Jacimovic,
3 Kozlina, a sergeant in command of Jacimovic who was a high-ranking
5 A. At the beginning I explained that to you very nicely in my
6 statement. During the actions, it was Sergeant Kozlina who took over
7 command, and Lieutenant Jacimovic was a figurehead there.
8 Q. Are you trying to say that the lieutenant was asking the sergeant
9 to let the people go?
10 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter did not understand the answer.
11 JUDGE MAY: Could you give us that answer again, please, Witness
13 A. That's the way it was. It may sound illogical, but that's the way
14 it was, that the lieutenant did -- well, I explained to you that during
15 the actions, it was the sergeant who took over command, because he was
16 sort of a heroic figure, brave, courageous, and the other one was less
17 prepared for things like that.
18 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
19 Q. Tell me precisely: Where did you take part in the collection of
20 bodies and their burial? In which village?
21 A. In the village of Trnje.
22 Q. And that is what you said when you said that you collected five or
23 six, and you don't know whether it was five or six; is that right?
24 A. Yes, that is right.
25 Q. And you said that before you, somebody else had already collected
1 some bodies. Does that mean that you knew in advance the number of bodies
2 that you would find there?
3 A. The number of bodies? I don't know whether it was known exactly
4 how many would be found, but we went to look around the village, like in
5 that yard, the bodies of the persons who had been killed. But when we
6 went there, there were visible traces, blood traces, on the ground, but
7 there were no bodies. And as far as I know --
8 Q. You explained that you buried the bodies in some bushes in the
9 mountains, et cetera. How many soldiers together with you participated in
10 this which you claim happened?
11 A. The soldiers who collected the bodies, loaded them, and dug that
12 grave for these persons, where they were to be buried, that is, there were
13 about ten of us soldiers who took part in this, and there were other
14 soldiers who came along and who provided security down on the road.
15 Q. Can you give the names of these soldiers?
16 A. I cannot give you their names; however, they were soldiers from
17 Montenegro. All the soldiers who were from Montenegro were there.
18 Q. All right. As a soldier, do you know the rules of service of the
19 army of Yugoslavia? You say that you completed your training and that
20 after training you were stationed in this brigade. Are you aware of the
21 rules of service?
22 A. Partly.
23 Q. All right. Do you know that according to the rules of service, in
24 addition to these orders that I quoted to you, or showed you, you are
25 duty-bound that even if you do get an order to carry out a crime, to
1 commit a crime, that you are duty-bound to refuse to do so and to report
2 that to a superior command? Do you know that?
3 A. That's not true.
4 Q. What's not true? It's not true that that's what it says in the
5 rules of service, or is it not true that you did report this or did not
6 report this? What is not the truth?
7 A. That is not true. Now I'm going to explain it to you. Probably
8 in the rules of service that is what it says, and I'm not denying that,
9 because I don't know whether it is what the rules of service say or do not
10 say. However, I just know what was ordered, what we were ordered to do,
11 and there was nothing like that in the orders we received.
12 Q. That means that you claim that you did not know of a single order,
13 even of the rules of service, that you are duty-bound, in respect of an
14 order that contains the commission of a crime, that you are duty-bound to
15 report that to a superior command. Is that what you're claiming?
16 A. I did not understand what you said. Could you please --
17 Q. Did you report the commission of any one of these crimes that were
18 allegedly committed and that you also took part in, that you also
19 committed? Did you report that to a superior command?
20 A. Your Honours, how could we report that to anyone? To report it to
21 the one who ordered you to do that: Is that who we were supposed to
22 report this to?
23 Q. You say that it was the sergeant who ordered you to commit that,
24 so you could have reported this to the commander of the battalion or the
25 commander of the brigade, or some other superior commander. Is that
1 correct or is that not correct, K41?
2 A. That is not correct. And how can I report this to the commander
3 of the battalion when he issued the order that we heard, most of the
4 soldiers did, the one that he issued on the hill above the order [as
5 interpreted]? And how do you think that I can report that to him, when he
6 issued that order to be carried out?
7 Q. All right. Who ordered the killing of these people who had
8 allegedly been killed? You claim that Sergeant Kozlina ordered this. Now
9 you say that you were ordered to do so by the commander of the battalion.
10 Who issued the order: the commander of the battalion or Sergeant Kozlina?
11 A. I personally was given orders by Sergeant Kozlina. Let that be
12 clear. And the command that we heard before that, we heard it from our
13 commander of the battalion for the village.
14 Q. And is it perhaps correct, K41, that not a single one of them
15 ordered you to kill civilians?
16 A. That is not correct, because I heard this, and this could also
17 have been heard by at least ten soldiers from my company who can confirm
18 this. And in no way can you deny that over here, because I was there, I
19 heard that, and I saw that. And you, Mr. Milosevic, as the supreme
20 commander, you could have come down there a bit and to see what it was
21 like for us, and you were issuing these shameful orders to be carried out.
22 Q. All right, Mr. K41. Who questioned you from amongst the
23 investigators of the Tribunal, this institution over here? Which
24 investigator did you give a statement to?
25 A. I cannot give an answer to you about that.
1 Q. Is that perhaps investigator John Zdrilic? Let me jog your
3 A. I don't remember.
4 Q. Do you know whether the same investigator worked on the statement
5 of your colleague, witness K32?
6 JUDGE MAY: He doesn't even know who it was, so he can't comment
7 on that.
8 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
9 Q. All right. Do you know the names of soldiers, for example,
10 Gasparic Slobodan, Jovanovic Bojan, Mirko Vladimir, not to mention all of
11 them now?
12 A. One of those names seems familiar to me.
13 Q. Do you know that these are soldiers who lost their lives precisely
14 in the fighting with terrorist groups, Albanian terrorist groups, in the
15 actions that you described as the killing of civilians?
16 A. In the actions that I participated in, and the soldiers who went
17 with me in these actions, there were no persons wounded and no persons
18 killed. As for the actions that I did not participate in, I cannot make
19 any claims, because I do not know about that.
20 Q. All right, K41. Since you committed this grave crime, were you
21 given any promises for this testimony of yours that you are giving here
22 today before this institution?
23 A. Mr. Milosevic, I am here of my own free will, and I said that
24 before. Mr. Milosevic, when I tell this truth to the person who, in my
25 opinion, is the most responsible for all these crimes, that already makes
1 me feel better. I need no further promises. That is sufficient for me.
2 Yes, Mr. Milosevic.
3 Q. Since you testified about the crimes that you committed
4 personally, you are not a fugitive from this institution, because you
5 cooperate with it. Why are you then a fugitive? Why are you a fugitive?
6 A. I am not a fugitive, Mr. Milosevic. I am just waiting. I'm just
7 waiting for help from my relatives to prove that it's not me. Never in my
8 life was I ever convicted or was I brought before a court of law.
9 Mr. Milosevic, I'm just waiting for my relatives' help to assist me in
10 proving that.
11 Q. And do you know that that is supposed to be proven before
12 judiciary authorities on whose orders a warrant for your arrest was
13 issued, not before your relatives were supposed to prove that you did not
14 commit this armed robbery?
15 A. Mr. Milosevic, if I did something, I am going to be accountable
16 and to answer before my own court of law and my own judiciary system.
17 Q. Do you intend to give yourself in?
18 JUDGE MAY: No.
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Of course, Mr. Milosevic.
20 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right. All right, Mr. May. I
21 have no further questions.
22 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Witness K41, counsel -- the amicus, as he's
23 called, the friend of the Court, is going to ask you a few questions.
24 Mr. Tapuskovic, we wish not to be too long.
25 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, of course I'll have
1 to try to do that.
2 Questioned by Mr. Tapuskovic:
3 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Witness K41, is it correct that persons in
4 our country against whom criminal proceedings are initiated cannot obtain
5 a passport and that is the reason why you do not have this passport?
6 A. I did not understand your question.
7 Q. You stated at the beginning of your statement that you do not have
8 a passport; is that correct?
9 A. Yes, that is correct. I don't have a passport. I never asked for
10 one and never had one.
11 Q. And did you -- did you ask for it during the past several days in
12 order to come to The Hague Tribunal?
13 A. I did not ask for it for the already mentioned reasons, and I
14 already told you why I did not ask for one.
15 Q. Why did you not go to the police when you found out that the
16 police were looking for you?
17 A. Because I never had any problems with them, and I was never
18 convicted, and I do not know what this is all about, that is why.
19 Q. Well, precisely. That is why you should have gone. If you were
20 not held accountable for anything, why did you not go to the police?
21 A. Well, that is why I'm going to go to the police when it suits me.
22 Q. So you are not at home now either, where you live otherwise?
23 A. Now?
24 Q. Now.
25 A. I cannot answer that.
1 Q. Thank you. I would like to ask you about your statement.
2 Everything that you said today, you said a lot of that earlier, but in
3 this previous statement of yours, there is no mention of this burial.
4 There is no mention of what you said happened in the village of Rogovo,
5 Tusus, about the arrest of those soldiers. Did you say that to the
6 investigator that you talked to when you drew up this statement of yours
8 A. Yes, I said that, and all of that is correct. I stand behind each
9 and every word that I said there. And I am ready to answer every question
10 that you put. I'm prepared to give answers to you and to everybody else.
11 Q. I agree, but that is not contained in your written statement. I
12 would like to ask you one more thing in relation to your statement.
14 JUDGE ROBINSON: You can continue.
15 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]
16 Q. Can you hear me, Witness?
17 A. Yes, now I can hear you.
18 Q. Here in your statement it is mentioned, and so that means it is no
19 longer true, that the event that was described here and that you already
20 talked about occurred on the 23rd of March.
21 A. No.
22 Q. So it was on the 24th of March then.
23 A. I said clearly about this event that it occurred that night when
24 the NATO bombing started. And I'm not sure of the exact date between
25 these two days, but it was exactly that night and that morning at dawn
1 what happened happened.
2 Q. Thank you. You spoke here about what you observed. You mentioned
3 Witness Milosevic. Can you mention any other names of persons from your
4 unit that you were with every day during those months, (redacted)
14 Q. He was there and he shot together with you?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Thank you. You said in your statement that you were close to
17 Officer Gavrilovic, that you were five to six metres away from him, and
18 that you saw and heard that he spoke to the sergeants and that he then
19 issued that order that nobody should remain alive on that day.
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Was this order repeated to you afterwards by Sergeant Kozlina?
22 A. Yes, walking downhill. I'll tell you exactly. Walking downhill
23 as we were getting close to the outskirts of Trnje, the soldiers were
24 talking about what all of this was. "Mr. Sergeant, what is this all
25 about?" He said, "You have probably found out from these soldiers who are
1 with me."
2 Q. Mr. Witness, you said today -- or you did not say today that
3 Kozlina repeated the order. You said that you were nearby and that you
4 heard it. However, there were 80 to 100 soldiers there as well. Did
5 you -- do you claim that all of them, all 80 to 100 of them, were nearby,
6 near Officer Gavrilovic and heard this?
7 A. No, not all of them were five or six metres away. Perhaps there
8 were some from companies, five or six or seven from each company who
9 managed to hear this, five or six or seven from my company, perhaps five
10 or six from another company who were there near the sergeant when he asked
11 them to come over.
12 Q. But, Witness, today you said -- you did not mention that Kozlina
13 gave any order to you in that sense, repeated any order to you. In your
14 previous written statement, you didn't say it either. But what you said
15 today is that all the soldiers realised what this was all about. This
16 seems that you all -- seems to mean that all of you understood what this
17 as all about, but this is not the order that was issued by Gavrilovic.
18 A. No. I shall repeat once again what I've been saying. We were
19 walking downhill and the soldiers asked, "Mr. Sergeant, what is this all
20 about?" those are from the rear. And he said -- the soldiers who could
21 have heard this just like me will tell about this, and you probably know
22 what this is about.
23 Q. I would just like to clarify one more thing with you if I can.
24 You explained to us today that Milosevic, a soldier like you, refused to
25 do what he refused and that on the spot he was not punished in any way;
2 A. That's right.
3 Q. And then you explained that you were shooting and that all of you
4 who were there in that yard fired at the group when you were requested to
5 do so. How do you explain that? You saw what happened to Milosevic, that
6 he was not punished. Now, why did everybody shoot all of a sudden from a
7 one-to-two-metre range at innocent civilians? Why did you shoot?
8 A. Your Honours, you know before that, soldiers who were from
9 Montenegro during the line-up, the review in the morning in the barracks,
10 on one occasion when one of us, one of the soldiers, was two days late
11 back from furlough at home, Captain Gligoric said in front of the entire
12 line-up of soldiers, he said, "These deserters, these fugitives from
13 Montenegro who do not come back." Do you know what a soldier feels like
14 when he is lined up that way and when he hears these words uttered by his
15 superior officer? And you know what kind of consequences we would have
16 suffered had we not carried out orders.
17 Q. That's not my question, Mr. Witness. I asked you the following:
18 Milosevic was not punished at all, and then Kozlina did this himself when
19 he refused to shoot at people. And now how come all of a sudden all of
20 you who were in that yard accepted to shoot at people from a range of one
21 to two metres and somebody even had to shoot this baby?
22 A. I wanted to explain that to you, that there were --
23 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Tapuskovic -- go on.
10 A. Because in my opinion, he is the main person to be blamed for all
11 of this.
12 Q. Well, precisely. Why did you not tell the current authorities
13 now, a lot earlier, not now in August? Because you only spoke about this
14 a month ago in August. Why did you only speak about this in August, when
15 Mr. Milosevic got out of power, if I can put it that way, two years ago?
16 A. I did not go. Why would I go? Who should I speak to? Which
17 authority in our country?
18 Q. Anybody. The first police station. Because of what you said
19 yourself that you had done, and this way to free yourself of this torment
20 and to have the persons responsible punished.
21 A. Because, sir, I can be punished as well, and you know that full
22 well. I am not evading this responsibility of mine anywhere because I
23 cannot. I've already explained this to you. It is unbearable. It is
24 untenable. You don't know what it's like to dream of this every night.
25 Q. Mr. Witness, one more question. How come now in August you did
1 give a statement, nevertheless, to the investigator that you did give the
2 statement to? Why only now? How come?
3 A. As I watched these appearances on television, I asked whether I
4 could also take part in this testimony. And also when I saw other
5 witnesses appear here, some of the people who were there in those
6 villages, I watched this and I said, "Can I tell my truth before this
7 court, the way I could tell it?" And then I asked, and then I found out I
8 could come too. And I thank this Court.
9 Q. How did you manage to find investigator Zdrilic? How did you get
10 to him?
11 A. I cannot make any claims to you now in terms of whether that's the
12 investigator that you keep referring to.
13 Q. Never mind the name of this investigator.
14 A. I did not understand this.
15 Q. The name of the investigator is not important. It could have been
16 any one of the investigators. How did you get through to this
17 investigator you spoke to? Was it through our authorities or did you go
18 somewhere on your own?
19 A. I can just tell you that I got this through the authorities, these
20 from the UN or whatever you call them.
21 Q. Although you are hiding from our authorities; is that right?
22 A. No. Again you're going back to that topic. I'm just waiting for
23 an opportunity as far as our authorities are concerned. I have no need to
24 hide from anyone.
25 Q. Thank you, Witness.
1 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.
2 MR. RYNEVELD: I'm conscious of the time. Three quick questions?
3 JUDGE MAY: Yes, we have time.
4 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you.
5 Re-examined by Mr. Ryneveld:
6 Q. Witness K41, during the course of your evidence, you on more than
7 one occasion used a phrase "people were wearing civilian uniforms." Would
8 you explain for the Court, please, what you mean when you say "civilian
9 uniforms"? Is that civilian clothing or is that a uniform of some kind?
10 A. Yes. They wore regular civilian uniform, an ordinary uniform. It
11 was not a military uniform or anything like that. It was an ordinary
12 civilian uniform.
13 Q. Perhaps I should ask you what you mean when you say "uniform." Is
14 that like shirt and slacks or is this something that is a matching outfit
15 that you -- with insignia or -- when you say "uniform," is that the word
16 you mean for clothing or is that actually a uniform that would be issued
17 to other people wearing -- belonging to a group?
18 A. When I say "uniform," I mean military clothing, camouflage
19 clothing that does have a matching shirt and trousers and also insignia on
20 this camouflage. That's what I call a uniform.
21 Q. And when you say "civilian uniform," what you're wearing today,
22 would you call that civilian uniform or what?
23 A. Yes, civilian uniform. An ordinary shirt and trousers.
24 Q. Thank you. Now, again just definition of words. Earlier in your
25 evidence, at some stage you indicated that you heard an order being given
1 to clean up the village. Can you tell us, please, or give the word that
2 you overheard in Serbian? Can you give us the Serbian word, please, that
3 you overheard being used? What was that order?
4 A. I did not hear you properly. I beg your pardon? Could you repeat
6 Q. Thank you. During the course of your evidence, I believe you
7 indicated at one point that you understood that you had to -- you
8 overheard an order that you were to clean up the village or cleanse the
9 village. Can you tell us what word that you heard? But I'd like you to
10 tell us what the word is in Serbian. Of course, that's what you're going
11 to use. What was that word or phrase?
12 A. The word was "ocistiti." That is what you say when you go into
13 action, when you're supposed to clean up a village. It means that when
14 people should be expelled or killed or -- expelled. That's what
15 "clean-up" means.
16 Q. All right. And finally, sir, have you been promised anything by
17 anyone for giving your evidence today, or have you been told that you have
18 immunity from prosecution by this organisation or any other for giving
19 your evidence?
20 A. No. No promises were made to me.
21 MR. RYNEVELD: Excuse me. Just one moment, please, Your Honours.
22 [Prosecution counsel confer]
23 MR. RYNEVELD:
24 Q. One other definition of a word. Can you tell us - again,
25 translators if you can assist - what the term that you understood for
1 picking up bodies after an incident. In other words, going to picking up
2 bodies. Can you use the Serbian word for us and tell us what that is?
3 A. "Pokupiti."
4 MR. RYNEVELD: And can the translators tell us what that word
6 THE INTERPRETER: "Pick up."
7 MR. RYNEVELD: "Pick up."
8 Thank you, Your Honours. Those are my questions.
9 JUDGE MAY: The tape which the witness produced will be marked for
10 identification. It won't be admitted because there may be an argument
11 about admissibility. We will ask the Prosecution to have a look at it.
12 It seems to be a tape containing the views of various people, so it may
13 not be admissible, but perhaps the Prosecution would have a look and we
14 will consider admissibility in due course.
15 MR. RYNEVELD: Yes. While we're on that topic, Your Honour, one
16 of the first documents proposed to be tendered by the accused was a
17 document that we looked at, but I don't think it received a number. We
18 would ask that it be -- get an ID number. We note that there are a number
19 of things on the document that we would like to have a look at to assess
20 as to whether or not it ought to be marked as an exhibit.
21 JUDGE MAY: One was marked as D35.
22 MR. RYNEVELD: Yes, but I think there was one before that we
23 looked at but it didn't get dealt with, and that's because we note that
24 part of it's cut off and there's no serial number. There's something
25 that's been redacted, and we don't know who the source is. That document
1 just hasn't been marked, although it's been tendered. I just thought I'd
2 indicate what our concerns are about that document. Thank you.
3 JUDGE MAY: And the tape.
4 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, the document which Mr. Ryneveld was
5 referring to will be marked as D36, marked for identification, under seal,
6 because we don't know what it says. Also D35 will be under seal. And the
7 videotape marked for identification will be D37 under seal.
8 MR. RYNEVELD: And I have just been advised that there were two
9 other documents referred to. One was an order, and the other one -- I
10 just discussed that.
11 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Let us deal with all this later.
12 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you.
13 JUDGE MAY: We ought to finish with the witness.
14 Witness K41, that concludes your evidence. Thank you for giving
15 it to the Tribunal. You are now free to go.
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you too.
17 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Perhaps we can deal briefly with Monday morning.
18 [The witness's evidence via videolink concluded]
19 JUDGE MAY: I believe we'll start were Mr. Zdrilic.
20 MR. NICE: We'll start with Mr. Zdrilic.
21 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please, for Mr. Nice.
22 MR. NICE: Sorry. We'll start with Mr. Zdrilic. We'll continue
23 with the witness who the accused says he would like to cross-examine,
24 because she's got to come in over the weekend and her evidence will
25 necessarily be brief. Then we will take Mr. Coo. That will probably be
1 the end of it, I think.
2 JUDGE MAY: Yes.
3 MR. NICE: This section of the trial.
4 JUDGE MAY: You still hope to finish on Tuesday.
5 MR. NICE: I would very much hope to. Can I -- there are just a
6 couple of things I might have mentioned if now is convenient. It'll only
7 take a minute.
8 JUDGE MAY: You have five minutes.
9 MR. NICE: I shan't take that long. We now have a proper final
10 translation for the statement by Markovic that we were examining
11 yesterday. May that become part of Exhibit 283, which was itself the
12 original and a draft translation?
13 JUDGE MAY: Yes.
14 MR. NICE: There are a number of concerns I'm experiencing about
15 procedural matters concerning the Republic. Waivers are one of them,
16 provision of documents is another. I can see difficulties ahead for the
17 next phase of the trial, difficulties that I've got to deal with sooner
18 rather than later. I'm particularly concerned about waivers in respect of
19 matters of state security and confidentiality and so on, which have got to
20 be granted if this evidence is to be made available to you in respect of
21 several witnesses. I mention it now. I'll prepare -- or I'm having
22 prepared for you on Monday, I hope, a chart that will show where we are
23 with that sort of difficulties. I'm not going to be seeking your active
24 engagement in the process immediately, but in the time that passes between
25 the first and second stage of the trial, I can see that we may be coming
1 to you for assistance, and it may be helpful if I ventilate, in the
2 presence of the accused and the amici, the difficulties that we are
3 encountering. I hope they're not going to get worse and can indeed be
4 dealt with.
5 A couple of matters of -- no, only one matter of public
6 announcement that hasn't been made so far. The Court will remember my
7 concern about the timing of provision of bis packages. It's a matter of
8 really historical relevance for this part of the trial, but the registry
9 has cooperated, and I understand that redacted bis packages will from now
10 on be available for journalists pretty well the minute that witnesses
11 produce the package to the Court. I see the registry wants to add
12 something to that.
13 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour. The usher delivers it directly
14 to the press and information agency. That's the arrangement which we've
16 MR. NICE: I'm grateful for that cooperation. It improves the
17 public -- an immediate public availability of the material. That's all,
18 Your Honour.
19 JUDGE MAY: Before Mr. Coo gives evidence, there will be legal
21 MR. NICE: Your Honour, yes. Can I -- two points on that. The
22 Court has already had the filing by us. There's one additional case that
23 I must draw to your attention on one of the topics. I'll provide it in
24 advance. It's a case -- part of the Factortame litigation in the Court of
25 Appeal in England and Wales. But I'm going to suggest that the easiest
1 way of dealing with the arguments that are raised is for the Court to be
2 seized of the whole report, as it is in any event, and to allow its eyes
3 to read the challenged passages de bene esse, to get Mr. Coo, as we go
4 through the parts of the report that I'll be considering, to explain
5 whether it's his conclusion or whether it's simply the summary of
6 documents that are referred to in that or a preceding paragraph, and then
7 the Chamber can make its mind up in due course. It seems to me that to
8 attempt a comprehensive argument on all these excluded passages will be
9 probably a pretty well fruitless exercise.
10 JUDGE MAY: We can consider that. We've, in fact, read the report
11 and come to some, I can tell you, tentative conclusions about it, so we
12 intended to deal with it globally. There are broad lines of complaint
13 which I think we can probably deal with.
14 MR. NICE: Your Honour, yes. It seems to me that what we must do
15 is try and find a way of dealing with a very substantial report in a way
16 that's economic in the use of time, and that was why I was going to
17 suggest that we, rather than have me saying, "This is Mr. Coo summarising
18 the effect of a dozen documents" and then my having to take you to the
19 documents, it's going to be better for him to say, "Well, this is simply
20 my summary of a number of documents; it's not my expression of opinion."
21 That will clarify the position and identify where opinion is and where
22 opinion is not being sought to be provided. I'd ask you to deal with it
23 that way. I'm confident it will be the quicker way of dealing with it.
24 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Wladimiroff, did you want to say something?
25 MR. WLADIMIROFF: Actually, I'd remind Your Honour that there were
1 some general issues, but more or less, I would not have a problem with
2 going through the material with Mr. Coo and then ask his reaction to the
3 matter being raised and then leave it for the Court to decide.
4 [Trial Chamber confers]
5 JUDGE MAY: Well, we'll consider it. I think broadly we would
6 prefer to deal with it in the way which I outline, which is to have the
7 argument first and make our rulings, rather than do it piecemeal.
8 MR. NICE: As Your Honour pleases, but I'll review it over the
10 JUDGE MAY: We'll adjourn now. 9.00 Monday morning.
11 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.00 p.m.,
12 to be reconvened on Monday, the 9th day of
13 September, 2002, at 9.00 a.m.