Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 10893

1 Friday, 4 October 2002

2 [Open session]

3 [The witness entered court]

4 [The accused entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 9.02 a.m.

6 JUDGE MAY: We have been informed that there is the ability to sit

7 next week during the afternoons from Monday, Tuesday, and Wednesday.

8 We've made no decision about that, but we'll hear the parties in due

9 course as to desirability of doing that.

10 MR. NICE: Thank you, Your Honour. For reasons that I'll explain

11 later, perhaps this morning, there may be difficulties in filling the week

12 with evidence. We'll do our best to put plans into operation to ensure

13 that we can.

14 JUDGE MAY: Very well. We'll consider the matter in due course.

15 Yes, Mr. Milosevic.

16 I should say we've now been handed copies of the witness's

17 statements. We'll consider in due course whether any or all of them

18 should be exhibited.

19 Yes.

20 WITNESS: WITNESS C-037 [Resumed]

21 [Witness answered through interpreter]

22 Cross-examined by Mr. Milosevic: [Continued]

23 Q. [Interpretation] Yesterday, towards the end of the hearing, you

24 said that your family and your father had been in a camp. You also

25 mentioned the common struggle, the joint struggle, of the Serbs and Croats

Page 10894

1 in World War II against fascism. Since you were active in politics, and

2 in view of the fact that you are an educated man, do you know that all the

3 constitutions of Croatia after World War II until the amendments were

4 passed in 1990 contained provisions prescribing that the Serbs were a

5 constituent nation in Croatia? This applies to all the constitutions, the

6 one from 1945, 1965, and 1974. And do you know that the Serbs lost this

7 status in Croatia only in 1990, with these changes? Is this correct?

8 A. Yes, this is correct. During the war, the Serbs acquired equal

9 status at the Zavnoh meeting, and they had this status in every

10 constitution until 1990, when they lost it.

11 Q. When you refer to Zavnoh, this is the anti-fascist council of

12 the Peoples Liberation of Croatia. For those who don't know what Zavnoh

13 is.

14 A. Yes, that's correct.

15 Q. Do you recall -- of course, you hadn't been born yet, but in our

16 country it was well known that the Zavnoh resolution contained statements

17 to the effect that the Serbs in Croatia had sacrificed themselves to an

18 unimaginable extent, that they loved their country, that they had

19 struggled against the enemy, and that there could be no free and

20 democratic Croatia in which the Serbs did not have full equality, just as

21 the Croats do. Do you know about this Zavnoh resolution?

22 A. Yes, I do, and in the first democratic elections, as they are

23 called, we referred to those decisions and the acquired rights of the

24 Serbs in Croatia.

25 Q. Where did the anti-fascist uprising begin in Croatia?

Page 10895

1 A. The official information was that it was on the 27th of July, in a

2 place called Srb in Lika. However, when the new government came to power,

3 this was changed.

4 Q. So in 1941, the anti-fascist uprising in Croatia started in a

5 place called Srb, which is an area inhabited by Serbs. It's situated in

6 Lika. And then it spread throughout Croatia. Is that correct?

7 A. Yes, that's correct.

8 JUDGE MAY: We need, Mr. Milosevic, to consider where this

9 examination is going. You're asking this witness about events long before

10 his birth. It seems to me -- just let me think. It seems to me that you

11 are claiming relevance to these events in -- for events in 1991. We will

12 need to know what the relevance is and we'll need to consider what the

13 appropriate way of dealing with it is. Your case, so you've told us, is

14 that the Serbs were in fear, that that fear arose partly from events 50

15 years before, and we will have to decide what truth there is in that. The

16 Prosecution case, of course, is that forces were responsible for crimes

17 committed in and against the Croatian population in the area which we are

18 dealing with. So there is a conflict there which we will have to

19 resolve. But nonetheless, I doubt that there's a great deal of point

20 asking this witness about events 50 or 60 years before.

21 Mr. Kay, again, perhaps you could assist us from the point of view

22 of the amicus on this issue. Really, it's a question of how far can

23 cross-examination properly go. It cannot go that every witness is going

24 to be asked about this.

25 MR. KAY: There is a great degree of relevance in relation to this

Page 10896

1 matter, but it has limited effect, and Your Honour has stated what the

2 broad issues on this matter are, and they have been canvassed with other

3 witnesses, and indeed this witness, before. So for my part, I don't take

4 objection to Your Honour raising this matter at this stage, because the

5 point is well known and the Trial Chamber Bench has expressed it only a

6 moment ago. My greater concern would be that the accused put his full

7 case in relation to matters and dealt with other matters rather than

8 dealing exclusively with historical matters.

9 [Trial Chamber confers]

10 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Milosevic, you've heard what has been said, and we

11 will reinforce that ruling. The issue which you want to explore is the

12 fear which you say the Serbs had at the relevant time because of matters

13 which occurred before. You can ask the witness about that fear, but you

14 must do so briefly, and particularly we shall not allow a great deal about

15 the history from this witness, who, as I say, wasn't born then. In due

16 course, we're going to allow both sides to call a historian. You can call

17 a historian too. The Prosecution can call a historian. And that's the

18 appropriate time to deal with these historical matters, not with this

19 particular witness. And what is important is during the time available to

20 you this morning, that you should put to the witness, so he can deal with

21 it and so we may know what your case is, anything you disagree with about

22 what he said about happenings in Western Slavonia and other matters that

23 he dealt with in his evidence.

24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May, you asked about the

25 relevance of this, without extensive explanations, the relevance is that

Page 10897

1 in the late 1980s and early 1990s, this same fascism from World War II

2 rose from the grave, and it was not expressed merely through symbols and

3 rhetoric, the symbols and rhetoric dating back to World War II, but also

4 through widespread pogroms of the Serbian population, of their expulsion

5 from the constitution, illegal arrests, murders, pressure, dismissals from

6 jobs --

7 JUDGE MAY: We have the point that you make. You've expressed it

8 before and we have the point. And in due course, you can call your

9 evidence about it. But you're dealing here with cross-examination of a

10 particular witness, and you should restrict yourself to what that witness

11 has said and what he knows about himself. In due course, as it's been

12 said many times, you can call your evidence about these things.

13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] As you have seen, the witness spoke

14 of things he knows about now, and yesterday he gave clear answers to my

15 questions about camps, torture, mutilation, murder, and so on.

16 JUDGE MAY: Now, let's not take any further time about this.

17 Let's get on with anything else you've got to put, and if you can finish

18 this witness today -- you have to finish him today, but if you can finish

19 earlier, so much the better. You've already put a great deal to him, but

20 anything else which is relevant to his evidence, you should put.

21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I think that all of this is

22 relevant. I will put a question to him that relates to the year 1990. We

23 are not speaking of fears but of phenomena that occurred in 1990, not some

24 abstract fears from 50 years ago.

25 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Page 10898

1 Q. In the area you lived in, nearby, was the biggest concentration

2 camp Jasenovac? Is that correct?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. It is well known how many Serbs, Jews, and Roma were killed in

5 that camp.

6 A. Yes, it was well known.

7 Q. According to what you knew and what you learned in school in

8 Croatia, how many Serbs were killed in Jasenovac?

9 A. What we learned was 700.000.

10 Q. 700.000 Serbs killed in a single Ustasha concentration camp

11 alone. Do you know about the event on the 27th of March from a rally

12 of --

13 JUDGE MAY: Which year?

14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 1990, on the 27th of March, 1990,

15 the time the witness is testifying about, an appeal was issued to

16 the Yugoslav public, saying: We have escaped from one hell. We don't

17 want our children and grandchildren to experience the same evil. We are

18 especially embittered by the knowledge that the independent state of

19 Croatia - we are referring to Hitler's Croatia - was in the historical

20 interests of the Croatian people.

21 Q. Do you remember this appeal?

22 A. I remember the event, but not the appeal.

23 JUDGE MAY: What was the event? Could you tell us that, or remind

24 us?

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Like every year, there was a meeting

Page 10899

1 of the camp survivors in Jasenovac to mark the day when they were

2 liberated from Jasenovac, and this is still happening today. It started

3 again in 1995. And on that day they come together and remember these

4 events, and they always call on the conscience of their fellow citizens to

5 make sure that this will never happen again. This has been a tradition

6 from the 1960s, and it's still going on today.

7 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

8 Q. Very well. Since this is not an abstract fear, but it's an event

9 that happened, is the information I have here correct, that in Western

10 Slavonia, in 1991 and 1992, several hundreds of Serbs were killed, several

11 hundreds were wounded, and several thousand houses were torched, and 27

12 Orthodox churches? Is this correct?

13 A. I cannot tell you the numbers. You say it's several hundred,

14 which could mean 200, 300, 700.

15 Q. What are your figures, since you are a Prosecution witness? Tell

16 me your figures.

17 A. What we knew, the information we had, and I'm sure it's not

18 correct, because everything cannot be established yet, over 500 people

19 were killed in Western Slavonia. But it is correct that several thousand

20 houses were blown up or torched, and also a large number of villages.

21 Q. Is it correct that 27 Orthodox churches were torched?

22 A. I don't know the exact number of churches. It was the Orthodox

23 church that kept these records. But I know a large number of churches

24 were destroyed.

25 Q. In view of what was happening, can it be said that the resistance

Page 10900

1 to this violence was spontaneous from the Serb population in Western

2 Slavonia?

3 A. I don't think we could put it like that. The resistance occurred

4 in Okucani, when the Croatian police entered, and there was shooting. The

5 rest of Western Slavonia started the war even before there were such

6 killings and torchings. The killings and torchings occurred during the

7 war and after the war. The commanders of Territorial Defence there

8 started the war. Now, whether that was prompted by the events in Okucani,

9 I don't know, but there were still no great danger to justify the shooting

10 and the attacks that occurred there, because the danger was not such yet.

11 But there was fear and lack of confidence.

12 Q. But Okucani is a part of Western Slavonia, is it not?

13 A. Okucani is in Western Slavonia. They're about 25 kilometres from

14 Pakrac and 45 kilometres from Daruvar. So these are all places within a

15 range of 20 to 30 kilometres.

16 Q. So the resistance was justified and spontaneous in Okucani, but

17 until the killing occurs --

18 JUDGE MAY: No, that's not what the witness said. You mustn’t

19 misrepresent or take on what he said when he didn't say it. It's your

20 case. I know it's your case, but you adopt it as though the witness has

21 said it when he hasn't. Now what you're supposed to do is put questions,

22 Mr. Milosevic, not make a series of comments. Now, let's concentrate on

23 that.

24 While I'm speaking, Witness 37, can you help us with this: You

25 said 500 people were killed and several thousand houses torched. Were you

Page 10901

1 referring to the Serb people who were killed and the houses torched?

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, when I mentioned the

3 500 killed, I had in mind the battles that were fought. So as far as I

4 know, the civilians and a part of the troops. Though this number is not

5 final, believe me, because the number is -- the number of missing Serbs in

6 Croatia is growing. So I was talking about Serbs. They are still looking

7 for their missing persons, and whom they have lost all trace in the war.

8 So this figure is certainly not final. It is much larger.

9 As for the houses, I was talking about Serbian villages and Serb

10 houses, because in this area of Western Slavonia, about 150 to 160 Serb

11 villages were totally devastated, and this went on from October until

12 about mid -- mid-October 1991 until April 1992. In this period villages

13 were torched and plundered and a part of the civilians who stayed behind

14 were either killed or taken to prisons in Bjelovar, Pakracka Polje, and

15 other places.

16 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone. We can't hear the accused.

17 JUDGE MAY: Just a moment. The microphone is not on.

18 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

19 Q. I was saying, from what Mr. May has said, it appears that I didn't

20 understand you correctly when interpreting what you had said in order to

21 ask you my next question, I was saying the attack was in Okucani, where

22 the resistance of the Serb population was spontaneous, and then you said

23 in Pakrac, which is 20 kilometres from Okucani, there were no attacks, but

24 they also organised themselves to put up resistance. Is that what you

25 said? Did I understand you correctly?

Page 10902

1 A. Yes, that is right. That is how it was in Pakrac, Daruvar,

2 Grubisno Polje, and Podravska Slatina, where the Serbs were the first to

3 launch an armed conflict.

4 Q. So when Okucani was attacked, who was attacking?

5 A. According to what I learnt several days later or the next day, it

6 was the Croatian police that entered Okucani and started shooting in

7 Okucani itself. And then the local Serbs responded, and this lasted for a

8 day or two, with interruptions, because the Yugoslav People's Army came to

9 intervene immediately from Bjelovar.

10 Q. So they were attacked, and spontaneously they put up resistance

11 against that attack; is that right?

12 A. Yes, that is how I was informed from Okucani.

13 Q. So that is how conflicts in Western Slavonia started; is that

14 right?

15 A. Yes, that is how conflicts in Slavonia started.

16 Q. And do you remember an order of the Crisis Staff of Slavonska

17 Pozega referring to measures of ethnic cleansing of Western Slavonia,

18 which needs to be cleansed of Serbs? The order of the Crisis Staff of

19 Slavonska Pozega ordering resettlement of 24 Serb villages in the

20 north-western part of the municipality of Slavonska Pozega. Do you

21 remember that order?

22 A. I do remember the order. Later on I personally saw it. I

23 remember when the people from those villages partly went towards Slavonska

24 Pozega, and a part of the population who had no confidence in the

25 government went to the area which was at the time under the control of the

Page 10903

1 Serbs.

2 Q. For the purpose of explanation, was there any reason except ethnic

3 cleansing to give the order for the Serbs to be resettled from 24 villages

4 of the municipality of Slavonska Pozega?

5 A. Subsequent events showed that there was no cause or reason for

6 this because those villages, with the departure of those people, were

7 burnt down and looted. A part of the population that stayed behind were

8 killed. And just this year their bodies were exhumed.

9 Q. And this order, which you yourself said had no reason to be

10 issued, there was no reason to throw out the Serbs from 24 villages, does

11 it remind you of the well-known order signed by Kvarternic in 1941 on the

12 7th of June --

13 JUDGE MAY: It's pure comment. It doesn't matter what it reminds

14 anybody of. That is your argument. It's not a proper question.

15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May --

16 JUDGE MAY: This is not a matter for argument. It's not a proper

17 question.

18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May, the order is identical to

19 the order of 1941.

20 JUDGE MAY: You can make the point to us if you want. It doesn't

21 matter what the witness's view about it. What you're trying to do is to

22 argue your case through the witnesses, and that's not permissible.

23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] No. In my examination, I'm just

24 endeavouring to have the witness tell me whether something is correct or

25 not, Mr. May, and I think I'm allowed to do that.

Page 10904

1 JUDGE MAY: Move on to the next question.

2 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

3 Q. Is it true that the largest number of settlements or the greatest

4 amount of violence - I'm sorry - was manifested in Daruvar, Grubisno

5 Polje, Nova Gradiska, Novska, Orahovica, Pakrac, Podravska Slatina,

6 Slavonska Pozega, and Virovitica? These are all the names of

7 municipalities?

8 A. Your Honours, could the question be more specific? What kind of

9 violence, by whom, and against whom?

10 Q. Against the Serbs by these forces of the Croatian authorities.

11 I'm talking about ethnic cleansing, killings, detentions, torture, all

12 types of violence, expulsions, evictions. Was the violence most intensive

13 in this part of Western Slavonia and in the municipalities I have listed?

14 You are familiar with all of them.

15 A. During the war, from August until December 1991, the Serbs, who

16 held their positions, those positions were outside of town; therefore,

17 Daruvar and Pakrac and Grubisno Polje as towns, and Virovitica and

18 Slavonska Pozega, and Orahovica and Podravska Slatina and Novska and Nova

19 Gradiska, they were all under Croatian control. The events were such that

20 in those towns, Serbs were taken to prison and some were mistreated,

21 beaten, some in Novska, Pakrac, and Daruvar were also killed, as happened

22 in Vucin, Cetekovac, and Balinci, and Bucje, where Serbs were in control,

23 similar events occurred.

24 Later on, the exodus of Serbs started from Grubisno Polje and

25 Daruvar - I'm now talking about municipalities as opposed to towns that I

Page 10905

1 mentioned before. These were parts of territories consisting of Serb

2 villages, and with the departure of Serbs from those villages, the

3 villages were devastated and burnt down. And I will repeat what I said:

4 Those who stayed behind were arrested, and after released, and some were

5 killed. So that this area, if we go from the north, from Virovitica,

6 Podravska Slatina, the part of the Serb villages that were in the

7 mountains up to the approaches to Pakrac, which was under the control of

8 the territorial forces and the JNA, were devastated. The villages were

9 totally destroyed, in other words.

10 Q. Do you remember the events that disturbed the public when, on the

11 Orthodox church in Grdzevci, a large slogan appeared saying "Death to

12 the Serbs"? And then on the 13th of August 1991 already, the Black Shirts

13 arrived, members of the national guards from Virovitica, under the command

14 of an official of the HDZ, Stojan Gustin. This was on the 13th of August,

15 1991. And then the misdeeds that occurred, do you remember those events?

16 JUDGE MAY: Let us deal with these singly. First of all, what is

17 put is that a slogan appeared on a church, "Death to the Serbs". Is that

18 right?

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't remember that.

20 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

21 Q. This was even referred to in its issue of the 19th of July, 1991

22 by a local newspaper?

23 JUDGE MAY: The witness says he doesn't remember. So the next

24 point is that the Black Shirts arrived, National Guards. Did you see any

25 Black Shirts?

Page 10906

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I wasn't there, and I didn't see

2 that. I did hear that some forces had arrived, but I didn't see them.

3 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

4 Q. And do you know anything about this event, that is, the arrival of

5 this group of killers of the National Guards, under the command of

6 Stojan Gustin on the 13th of August, 1991, and the misdeeds committed by

7 them? Do you know anything about them?

8 A. I heard about this around the 15th of August, and that conflicts

9 broke out which spread later on, but I don't know exactly how it all

10 started.

11 Q. Very well. Do you remember, for instance, within the context of

12 that event - let me give you a specific example, because hundreds of Serbs

13 were killed on that occasion. Mladen Kekerovic, the wealthiest Serb from

14 Grubisna Polje, and his address Novi Put BB, was arrested, of course

15 without a warrant, by the National Guards, as he was on a business trip

16 and he had money on him. Then they cut off one ear. And when they had

17 seized all his property, they allowed him to leave Croatia. Do you

18 remember that incident at least?

19 A. In those days, there were very many events and stories of that

20 kind. I truly do not remember that particular name, but I do know that

21 there were interceptions and people beaten up, but it's a long time ago,

22 so I'm afraid among the host of data, I don't remember that particular

23 name.

24 Q. Very well. And is what I have here correct or not? Just tell me

25 yes or no. That during the ethnic cleansing, according to data, up to the

Page 10907

1 15th of August, 1992, in that area, 183 villages were totally ethnically

2 cleansed and 87 partially. Are those figures correct?

3 A. I think it is not quite as many, not quite 183. I think it is a

4 little less, about 170, something like that.

5 Q. So it's not 183, but how many?

6 A. Totally ethnically cleansed. According to our data, about 165

7 villages were totally destroyed, and about 50 partially destroyed.

8 JUDGE MAY: And when was that, Witness C-037? I think you've told

9 us, but you can remind us again. During what period did that happen?

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, these events began at

11 the end of September and beginning of October 1991 and went on until

12 mid-1992.

13 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

14 Q. You say October. I have information here that, for example, in

15 the municipality of Virovitica, the Croatian forces and armed citizens

16 shot at Serb houses already in early September 1991. Is this true or

17 not? Please just say yes or no so that we don't waste time. I gave you a

18 specific piece of information, the village of Nova Cabuna, the beginning

19 of 1995, so September, not October, armed Croatian civilians and civilian

20 forces shot at Serb houses. Is this true or not?

21 A. I don't know the exact period. I did hear about that event. This

22 was outside of the control of the area where I was living. We heard also

23 about the village of Kip that this is what happened, and also in the area

24 of Daruvar. So this did happen right after August, so that this time

25 period that you're talking about, September, is probably right, but I

Page 10908

1 don't know exactly anything about this village. I don't have the precise

2 information. I don't have any records so that I could talk about specific

3 dates. But this was the time period when these events began to happen.

4 Q. Well, I'm not talking about the exact date, but was it the

5 beginning of September?

6 A. Yes, it was.

7 Q. Very well. Thank you. Could you please tell me now: Since I'm

8 looking at data now which was gathered until the 15th of August, 1992, so

9 only until the 15th of August, that the following villages or settlements

10 have been completely cleansed Bastajski Brdjani, Batina, Batinska Rijeka,

11 Bijela, Donja Vrijeska, Donje Cjepidlake, Gornji Borki, Dobra Kuca, Gornje

12 Cjepidlake, Gornja Vrijeska, Gornji Borki, Katinac?

13 JUDGE MAY: The witness can't deal with this, reading out a long

14 list. He can't possibly begin to deal with it.

15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The list is very long, but --

16 JUDGE MAY: Just a moment.

17 Can you remember the names of all these 165 villages?

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I cannot remember them

19 all, but the villages that are being cited now are villages in the area of

20 the municipality of Daruvar. But I cannot remember at this moment all of

21 the villages, all of their names.

22 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Milosevic, you've got the general point that it's

23 165. Now, we don't need to go into any more detail. Let's move on.

24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May, I said that it was 183

25 villages, and the witness confirmed 165 villages.

Page 10909

1 JUDGE MAY: What we rely on is not what you say. It's what the

2 witness gives in his evidence. That's what the Court relies on. Can we

3 move on from this topic?

4 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

5 Q. Is it true that in Croatia, from 1991 - and now I'm talking about

6 Croatia, not only about Western Slavonia - that the Croatian authorities

7 blew up 10.000 houses belonging to Serbs, even the occasional Croatian

8 house, where they were owned by people who disagreed with them?

9 JUDGE MAY: You've given evidence about Western Slavonia. Can

10 you give evidence about what happened in the rest of Croatia or not?

11 Something you read in the paper, then it's of no value really, or

12 something you heard on the radio.

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I heard about this

14 piece of information in the media, and I heard it talked about in the

15 Croatian different bodies. They discussed the blowing up of these

16 houses. And there was also discussion about that in Strasbourg. But I

17 don't have official information about that, no.

18 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter cannot hear the accused.

19 JUDGE MAY: We can't hear you, but it sounds what you're saying is

20 irrelevant. There's no point asking a witness what he heard on the radio

21 about facts which can be established by other evidence, if they are

22 facts. What you're trying to do is to argue your entire case through this

23 witness, which is a waste of the Court's time. Ask him about Western

24 Slavonia, by all means. He knows about that, but simply he's read

25 something in a paper, it's of no use to anybody, particularly these

Page 10910

1 general points.

2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May, during the

3 examination-in-chief, the examination-in-chief, I expected you to make

4 such a remark to the other side, because to many questions: How do you

5 know about this?, the witness replied that he had seen that in the

6 newspaper or had heard about it on Croatian television. I did not ask in

7 any of my questions for him to say what he had read in the papers. I'm

8 only asking him what he knows. If you look at the transcript of the

9 examination-in-chief, you will see how many times he had said that he had

10 read something in the Croatian press.

11 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

12 Q. For example, did you see the prison in Knin, for Croats, or any

13 camp in Udbina, which you mentioned in the examination-in-chief? Or did

14 you hear about this or read about it?

15 A. I heard about that.

16 Q. Heard about it. So you accept the testimony about something that

17 he had heard and talked about during the examination-in-chief, but you are

18 asking me to ask him only about things that he knows. But he occupied a

19 post in which he was supposed to know things like that?

20 JUDGE MAY: We will rule and see what value there is in anything

21 which the Prosecution called in evidence, if you're right about that. I

22 don't recollect it, but if you're right we will certainly do that. It's

23 of no point saying I heard on the radio that so many houses were burnt

24 down or whatever, unless he's got some particular connection with it.

25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well. A while ago we

Page 10911

1 established during this questioning his claim about 165 villages, so let

2 us go on. I'm talking about Western Slavonia now. So you won't allow

3 anything else other than Western Slavonia.

4 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

5 Q. So could you please tell me: Is this information correct?

6 Because, for example, I took this information from American -- the

7 American media, Tomislav Mercep, who was the advisor of the minister of

8 internal affairs and a member of parliament, led death squads and a vast

9 number of Serbs were killed by him in Western Slavonia. Is this true or

10 not?

11 A. I heard from people that -- mention his name, both from Croats and

12 from Serbs, also by some Croat officials that he led actions in Western

13 Slavonia. At that time I didn't have any direct contacts with him, nor

14 did I meet him. His name is linked with villages around Novska which were

15 destroyed and his name is also linked to the Pakracka Poljana. I heard

16 about that, but I don't have any concrete arguments about that.

17 Q. Very well. And now, since you are living in Croatia, are you

18 aware about the recognition of an officer -- the admission of an officer

19 of his who admitted that he had slaughtered 72 Serbs, officer Bajramovic,

20 and those victims including eight -- no, nine women? Did you hear

21 about this affair and the revelation of these facts relating to Western

22 Slavonia regarding these cruel murders of Serbian civilians?

23 A. I read about this in the newspaper. I read Mr. Bajramovic's

24 interview about these events. And then I know that he was detained and

25 that an investigation was launched against him, and another two persons,

Page 10912

1 that later they were freed due to lack of evidence. And now these

2 proceedings are before the Court again, but without Bajramovic, because

3 he's on the run. But the other two whom he mentioned while he was in

4 investigative detention, in prison, are on trial and they talked about the

5 massacres and murders of Serb civilians in Pakrac, including women.

6 Q. How do you explain that Croatia, a state with a rule of law, frees

7 because of lack of evidence a man who himself admits --

8 Very well. And do you know the activities of Mercep in Vukovar

9 regarding the murders of Serbs, together with Glavas and Seks and their

10 death squads, murders, blockades, and so on? Do you know anything about

11 the activities of Mercep, Glavas, and Seks in Eastern Slavonia? Do you

12 know anything about that?

13 A. I heard about those things later from Serbs who lived in that

14 area, but I don't have any detailed information about that other than

15 stories that this is what he took part in, that he took Serbs away, he

16 liquidated them, they were dumped in the River Drava. But as I say, I do

17 not have any direct information about that.

18 Q. Well, direct information. Yesterday we dealt with a series of

19 issues that I put questions to you about regarding -- which you also said

20 you don't know anything about that. We mentioned a lot of things that you

21 don't seem to know anything about. Do you know -- well, you were in

22 Croatia throughout that period. You listened to their radio and

23 television. Do you know what the Yugoslav National Army was called? I'm

24 asking because I have an order here relating to reporting from combat

25 areas where it is stated: "Not to call the JNA anything else but the Serb

Page 10913

1 or communist occupying army." So during the time that the JNA was in the

2 Croatian part of the Yugoslav territory, the Yugoslav army, it was

3 proclaimed to be the Serbo-Communist Occupational Army, in accordance with

4 orders given to their media. Was this the vocabulary, the terms, that

5 were used?

6 A. The vocabulary used was Serbo-Communist and Serbo-Chetnik.

7 Q. Well, relating to Serbo Chetnik, I saw in the report about the

8 questioning of Miro Bajramovic, that he explained that there was no

9 problem for him to cut the throats of women and so on because he wanted to

10 kill them all. As far as we were concerned, they were all Chetniks, and

11 then things just went on automatically from there. So please tell me,

12 since you talked about this yesterday, about the ways in which Serbs were

13 tortured in camps and prisons. Since I have a report here which, based on

14 the examination of a number of prisoners who were exchanged, and these

15 examinations were conducted by the institute for mental health of the

16 military hospital in Belgrade, and it was signed by Colonel Dr. Bratislav

17 Petrovic himself. So this analysis of medical and psychological

18 examinations by experts of these people who came from these camps, is this

19 something that --

20 JUDGE MAY: You're going a long way from what the witness can deal

21 with. Now, time is limited. He gave evidence, for instance, that he was

22 arrested, charged with treason and espionage, detained for 72 days in

23 Belgrade. These are all matters which he's given evidence about. Not a

24 word of cross-examination by you. And there comes a limit to the amount

25 of cross-examination we can allow on the -- what you know now is called

Page 10914

1 the -- or is referred to as the tu quoque basis, that means attacking the

2 other side for the crimes they committed. Now, you're on trial here for

3 various crimes and evidence is being given against you. Now, if you

4 challenge any of the evidence which this witness gave, such as what I've

5 described already, then you must do so, because it's your duty to

6 challenge his evidence rather than put your own case accusing the others

7 of various other crimes, which may not be relevant in the trial. [redacted]

8 [redacted]

9 If there's anything you want to ask about that, you should. You should

10 deal with the crimes which it's alleged were committed by the TO and

11 others. These are all matters that you should deal with.

12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May, let's just be clear about

13 one thing. My case is not what you say, the tu quoque case, because

14 Serbia did not commit this. You are talking about a civilian -- civil war

15 in Croatia. To me, who was the president of Serbia, and not the president

16 of Croatia or Yugoslavia at that time, and Serbia was not at war with

17 Croatia and did not commit these things. We have established during the

18 cross-examination of this witness also that all the units who were there

19 that he's aware of were local ones and that Serbia did not take any part

20 in this. So my case is not that you also committed that, but I'm talking

21 about the fact that this has no material or legal basis in order for it to

22 be discussed like this. How can I know what --

23 JUDGE MAY: What you've established so far, or what you're

24 attempting to establish, as far as I can see, because your evidence is --

25 or the cross-examination is purely directed to this, is that during this

Page 10915

1 conflict in Croatia, crimes were committed against the Serbs. Now, that

2 may or may not be so, but you must understand it is of limited assistance

3 to us in deciding whether crimes were committed by you and others, as

4 alleged, in Croatia at this time. Now, the witness's evidence is aimed at

5 directing allegations that you, not you personally, but others were

6 involved in these crimes, and you should be concentrating your defence, if

7 I may say, and your cross-examination, in challenging what he says, not

8 simply rehearsing at great length and, if I may say, with much repetition,

9 that crimes were committed against the Serbs. You understand that, that

10 the trial has got to concentrate on the matters of the indictment, not

11 simply on allegations against the other side. It may be that it can

12 concentrate on more relevant issues. And in my view, much too much time

13 has been taken up with allegations against the other side. I speak for

14 myself, of course, but that is my view.

15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May, I wish to remind you, since

16 I am not concealing my view, that what you call an indictment is a false

17 indictment, for primarily two reasons: First of all, because there was no

18 aggression. It was a civil war. That's the first reason. And the second

19 one is that the Serbian people had this war imposed on them, both in

20 Croatia and in Bosnia, and that for them it was a war of defence. So it

21 is evident that the Serbs were defending themselves on the territories on

22 which they lived, defending themselves from pogroms, such as had been

23 perpetrated 50 years before. That's all I'm saying, Mr. May. That's the

24 only truth I'm trying to explain here. Far be it for me to say tu quoque,

25 because I have committed no crimes.

Page 10916

1 JUDGE MAY: You challenge, for instance, that this witness was

2 arrested, as is --

3 [redacted]

4 [redacted]

5 [redacted]

6 [redacted]

7 [redacted]

8 [redacted]

9 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: [Previous translation continues] ...

10 JUDGE MAY: Yes.

11 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: The matters related to arrests and such

12 things were discussed in private session.

13 JUDGE MAY: Very well. We'll go into private session.

14 [Private session]

15 [redacted]

16 [redacted]

17 [redacted]

18 [redacted]

19 [redacted]

20 [redacted]

21 [redacted]

22 [redacted]

23 [redacted]

24 [redacted]

25 [redacted]

Page 10917












12 Page 10917 – redacted – private session














Page 10918












12 Page 10918 – redacted – private session














Page 10919

1 [redacted]

2 [redacted]

3 [Open session]

4 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're now in open session.

5 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

6 Q. There is no need to go into any further detail as to the

7 persecution of Serbs, the ethnic cleansing, and so on, because there is no

8 doubt that this was widespread and covered almost all of the territory;

9 isn't that correct?

10 A. If you are speaking of later events, if you're speaking of 1995

11 and the exodus of the Serbs from the RSK, as it was, then it became

12 widespread, but as for Western Slavonia, I have told you how many

13 villages, municipalities, and people went.

14 Q. Well, you said 165 villages and so on. Was this widespread or

15 not, in relation to such a small area as Western Slavonia? Because 165

16 villages, as you say - I say it's more - would that be widespread or not?

17 A. Well, yes, I think it's widespread.

18 Q. How many houses did you say were torched or blown up with

19 explosives?

20 JUDGE MAY: We're going over the same ground again and again.

21 Now, have you got anything else, anything new to ask him?

22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Of course I do.

23 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

24 Q. The amendments, as we concluded, caused people to be upset, but as

25 far as I can remember, after this a discussion was held on preparations

Page 10920

1 for a new constitution of Croatia; is that correct? The amendments were

2 enacted in the middle of the year, and towards the end of the year there

3 were preparations and there was debate about a new constitution. Is that

4 correct?

5 A. Yes, that's correct.

6 Q. Well, now, you took an active part in all this, putting forward

7 proposals, and you took part in the preparation of some amendments on

8 behalf of the political organisations you were active in, which advocated

9 certain rights for Serbs which should be provided for in the constitution.

10 Is that correct?

11 A. Yes, that's correct.

12 Q. Is it correct - and this is my question to you now - is it correct

13 that the Croatian authorities did not take into account a single one of

14 the Serb amendments to the proposed constitution, especially as regards

15 demands that in the new constitution the Serbs should keep their previous

16 status, that is, the status of a people, which they had had in all the

17 previous constitutions ever since the Republic of Croatia came into

18 existence? Is this correct?

19 A. Yes, that is correct.

20 Q. Do you remember, then, the series of laws that deepened or

21 exacerbated the repetition of the system of 50 years before? For example,

22 the law on public holidays. Let me not speak of the Serbs, for example,

23 but the Jews would have the right to an official holiday only if they were

24 members of the Jewish community, and if they weren't, they wouldn't have

25 the right to an official holiday, and so on and so forth. And the Croats

Page 10921

1 could celebrate Christmas for two days, while the Serbs could celebrate it

2 for only one day. So discriminatory laws were enacted in all areas of

3 life, for example, education, the Academy of Arts and Sciences. Do you

4 remember the law on the academy saying that the Croatian Academy of Arts

5 and Sciences was the legal successor of the Yugoslav academy from 1941 to

6 1945? This was the academy that had been set up during the fascist

7 government. And there were a number of laws. I cannot quote them all

8 now. Didn't this exacerbate - in parallel with the preparations for the

9 new constitution and the new constitution - didn't it exacerbate the

10 situation in which the Serbian people in Croatia were threatened,

11 imperilled, at the time?

12 A. I remember the enactment of these laws, but as for the academy, I

13 don't remember that. It doesn't mean it didn't happen, but I cannot

14 remember that, since you asked about this specifically. But as for public

15 holidays and other things, I remember that, yes, and I know that this

16 caused tension, that people lacked confidence, that they felt

17 discriminated against, so they did not trust the new authorities.

18 Q. I assume - and please confirm whether this is correct, in view of

19 the feelings you had then and your relations then - when I say "you," of

20 course I'm not referring to you personally, but to the Serbs. Were you

21 upset by the fact that demands for the Serbian people to retain their

22 previous status in the Republic of Croatia were rejected? I'm referring

23 to the status of an equal nation.

24 A. Yes, it did have a negative effect on us. It increased the

25 mistrust, the lack of confidence, because we wanted Croatia to be a civil

Page 10922

1 state, not a national state of the Croats, but a state of all its

2 citizens, and this proposal saying that we were no longer a constituent

3 people really caused the Serbs in Croatia to lack confidence in the new

4 government.

5 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters cannot hear the question.

6 JUDGE MAY: Start again, please.

7 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

8 Q. After all the events that we have mentioned in this examination,

9 did this not show that the lack of confidence in the new authorities was

10 not unjustified; but on the contrary, that unfortunately, the fears were

11 justified?

12 A. Unfortunately, all the events that happened after 1995 showed that

13 the fear was justified.

14 Q. I shall skip over some questions in order to save time, but there

15 is one that I cannot leave out.

16 Do you remember that the law on primary education does not provide

17 for education for children of Serb nationality but only education in the

18 Croatian language, also the law on secondary schools education, while the

19 law on education of minorities provides only for minorities --

20 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter did not catch all the names.

21 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

22 Q. -- that the Serbs were not referred to, that they were not given

23 even the status of a national minority? Is this correct, Mr. C-037?

24 A. Yes, because there had been a law on minorities up to that point,

25 which was not -- declared not in force. The Serbs were declared a

Page 10923

1 minority, but there was no law on the basis of which they could realise

2 their rights in Croatia.

3 Q. When all this is borne in mind, the constitution, the laws, the

4 violence, the ethnic cleansing, the murders, can it be concluded that the

5 Croatian authorities incited not only nationalism in Croatia but also

6 fascism and discriminatory and insulting stance towards the Serbs in

7 Croatia?

8 JUDGE MAY: These are all conclusions which you are asking us to

9 draw. They're not a matter for the witness. You can ask him what the law

10 was and how it was changed, but comments upon it are not for him.

11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] This is not a comment, Mr. May,

12 because I am talking about the consequences this had, unfortunately tragic

13 ones, which the witness is testifying about here.

14 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

15 Q. Is it correct that the election campaign in Croatia - let me be

16 more specific - which illustrates all this, that the election campaign at

17 the beginning of 1990, when it was gaining momentum, intimated, without

18 any question, the attitude of Croatian nationalist parties towards Serbs

19 and their status in Croatia, and after that, this was fully reflected

20 during the preparation for and adoption of the new Croatian constitution?

21 A. Yes, I do remember the speeches that were held nationalist,

22 containing threats, an insulting attitude towards the Serbs, which was

23 later materialised through the laws and constitution.

24 Q. You remember the HDZ programme adopted in 1989, at its founding

25 assembly?

Page 10924

1 A. I don't remember the details any more, but I do know that a

2 programme was adopted, but I cannot talk about the details.

3 Q. I'm not asking you about the details. I'm asking you about the

4 position they took towards all these key issues that I have put to you.

5 Was all that based on this programme adopted in 1989?

6 A. It was.

7 JUDGE MAY: The time has come to adjourn. We will adjourn now for

8 20 minutes. There will be another short adjournment later in the

9 morning. We will finish at 1.00.

10 Mr. Kay, if either you or Mr. Tapuskovic got any questions?

11 MR. KAY: Yes. There will be a few questions, but it will be

12 under ten minutes.

13 JUDGE MAY: Thank you.

14 And re-examination?

15 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes, Your Honour, but not more than 15

16 minutes.

17 JUDGE MAY: Thank you.

18 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Kay, in the course of your examination, or apart

19 from it, I wonder if you can help us with an issue raised by the accused

20 in the form of general objection to the Prosecution's exhibit regarding,

21 in particular, tab 7 and tab 12 of Exhibit 327. Tab 7 is a minute or a

22 report of a meeting purportedly presided by this witness, but the witness

23 said he doesn't know of this. But I note -- I noted that that very

24 document was attached to the written statement, so he might have said

25 something different at the statement. And tab 12 is a document named as

Page 10925

1 "List of crimes made by the Republic of Croatia, department of war

2 crimes." We admitted it on the ground that it is a prima facie official

3 document, but if you look at the original B/C/S version, it is a

4 typewritten one and there's no official seal, nor anything like that. So

5 if you could deal with this matter or give us your observation.

6 And also for the Prosecution, if you could give us your

7 explanation as to the authenticity of the document or how the Prosecution

8 did get this document.

9 JUDGE MAY: We'll adjourn now, 20 minutes.

10 --- Recess taken at 10.22 a.m.

11 --- On resuming at 10.47 a.m.

12 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Nice.

13 MR. NICE: An administrative matter. We've reviewed the position

14 of witnesses. We are already facing considerable difficulties arising

15 from the failure so far for waivers to be granted, in particular, cases

16 where witnesses require them. I'm pursuing the problem with all energy,

17 but we may be turning to the Chamber for assistance fairly soon, so that's

18 going to disturb the order of witnesses in any event.

19 As far as next week is concerned, the possibility of sitting three

20 half days next week, obviously we will take any time that's available

21 whenever we can and we will do our best to fill such a week if that time

22 is available. We think we can probably just about get witnesses in, but

23 it will necessarily be again with the consequences of some disturbance of

24 the order of witnesses. What we will do is notify the Court by the end of

25 today, or the accused by the end of the full day, what witnesses we are in

Page 10926

1 a position to call next week, and hope that the Chamber will allow them to

2 be called out of order. For personal reasons, I shan't be here on Monday

3 afternoon or on Tuesday until about 10.00. I hopped to take a witness on

4 Monday morning, I still hope to do so, leaving supervision of

5 cross-examination to one of my colleagues, of course. But if that's still

6 possible, I'd be grateful to start at 9.00 on Monday so ensure I can

7 finish him by the time I have to leave. I had budgeted on 9.00 until

8 2.00, or 9.00 until 1.45.

9 JUDGE MAY: We'll do the normal hours for Monday. Tuesday and

10 Wednesday we'll sit in the afternoon, 9.30 until 4.15.

11 Yes, Mr. Milosevic.

12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I understood now that the opposite

13 party intends to change the order of witnesses once again. It seems to me

14 that we had cleared up the matter, that it was the least that could be

15 done for me to have the order of witnesses at least one week in advance.

16 Let me remind you that one thousand twenty-five [as interpreted] thousand

17 pages were disclosed, 600 videotapes, and 200 or 300 audiotapes, and it is

18 absolutely impossible, physically, not to review all this material, but

19 even to make some sort of a selection unless you know at least a few days

20 in advance when which witness will appear. And if the other party wishes

21 to use these tricks, I cannot understand that this is permissible. I

22 think it is impermissible.

23 JUDGE MAY: You're wrong to talk of tricks. The difficulties

24 arise because of getting witnesses here. We are conscious of the amount

25 of material which has been served on you and the difficulty which you have

Page 10927

1 in preparing your defence, and it's a matter which we keep in

2 consideration. But the order of witnesses is not in fact necessarily set

3 in stone, and occasionally there must be changes. What we have to do is

4 to ensure that you have time for preparation of each, and that we will do.

5 Yes, Mr. Nice.

6 MR. NICE: Nothing I really need to at to the summary of our

7 position that Your Honour has identified. We are of course in many ways

8 entirely in the hands of others. But what I can say is this: Aware of

9 the possibility of the need for future and further changes to the order of

10 witnesses, we will be voluntarily disclosing material earlier than might

11 otherwise have been the case to ensure that the accused has the maximum

12 amount of time to review it.

13 JUDGE MAY: And it may be of assistance, with any changes there is

14 in the order, that he gets, besides the notification, he also gets the

15 witness statement and also the summary, although he's had them before, but

16 if he can have them again so he doesn't have to look for them.

17 MR. NICE: I've already made arrangements for that to happen in

18 respect of changes for next week.

19 JUDGE MAY: Thank you.

20 Yes, Mr. Milosevic. Let's go on.

21 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

22 Q. Mr. C-037, can it be said that the civil war in Croatia was

23 initiated by illegal paramilitary formations of the secessionist regime in

24 Croatia?

25 A. What regime are you referring to?

Page 10928

1 Q. The one who carried out the secession of Croatia by force and

2 contrary to the provisions of the constitution, as of 1990, following the

3 elections.

4 A. I couldn't answer in that way, that the war started by the

5 secessionists. I think it broke out due to nationalism, mistrust,

6 incidents, and then the conflict spread. So there was a gradual

7 development.

8 Q. Very well. Are you aware -- were you aware then, or now, do you

9 know now, that at the beginning of 1990, for instance, the Croatian

10 leadership planned the formation of an armed force, about 44.000 strong,

11 in peacetime, and 220.000 strong in wartime, as preparations for the

12 forcible secession and the expulsion of Serbs from Croatia?

13 A. I'm not familiar with such details. I know that there was

14 reference to the formation of a Croatian army, the ZNG was formed. But

15 I do -- I am not aware of any plans, nor did I see them, for the expulsion

16 of Serbs.

17 Q. You just mentioned the national guards corps, the ZNG. That was

18 counter-constitutional, was it not, to form such a guard corps?

19 A. I'm not a lawyer, and really, I'm unable to answer that question.

20 Q. Do you remember that at the time, illegal arming started in

21 Croatia?

22 A. I heard about it first from the media, and later I saw civilians

23 being armed.

24 Q. When later did you see civilians armed?

25 A. I saw them at the end of May/beginning of June, in 1991.

Page 10929

1 Q. Do you know that trailer trucks with weapons were illegally

2 delivered and the first arrived on the 12th of October, 1991, and then the

3 next convoy -- I'm sorry, on the 20th of October, 1990 [as interpreted]

4 from the DDR, that is, from the former stocks of the former East Germany.

5 A. I heard that from the media, but I didn't see that. I heard about

6 it from the media and I heard people talking about it, citizens,

7 discussing this, but nothing more than that.

8 Q. Were you aware of weapons being brought in from Panama, Frankfurt,

9 by planes, also illegally?

10 A. As it was illegal, I couldn't be aware of it. If it had been

11 legal, again I wouldn't have seen it, because I wasn't in such

12 organisations that had access to such information.

13 Q. Do you remember that on the 13th of January, 1991, that is, after

14 the decision of the Presidency of Yugoslavia on the disarming --

15 JUDGE MAY: Unless this witness was involved in this matter,

16 again, you are putting very generalised matters to him which he cannot

17 give evidence about. You have the opportunity to call evidence about

18 them, and you can -- if there are witnesses who can deal with them for the

19 Prosecution, you can cross-examine them. But merely putting your entire

20 defence, your broad brush allegations, and asking witnesses who know

21 nothing about them is of no assistance to us. We have to decide what the

22 limits of this are. Ask him a question he might know something about.

23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I am asking him whether he knows

24 about it, Mr. May. I cannot know in advance, like the opposite party,

25 what he does know, nor can I give him the indictment to learn by heart, as

Page 10930

1 the other side has done, to quote from it. He is a Prosecution witness --

2 JUDGE MAY: An improper allegation by you.

3 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

4 Q. Very well. Do you remember the confiscation of a Boeing 707 from

5 Uganda full of weapons and ammunition?

6 JUDGE MAY: Do you know anything about this sort of thing? Were

7 you involved in confiscating a Boeing?

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, Your Honours. I heard about it

9 from the information media.

10 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

11 Q. Very well. Tell me, please, since a moment ago you said you saw

12 weapons being distributed to civilians and so on: From the standpoint of

13 the strengthening of repression and dictatorship in Croatia, the formation

14 of paramilitary units organised by the ruling political party, that is,

15 the HDZ, the formation of the national guards and their illegal arming and

16 equipment, does that have special significance for the beginning of the

17 civil war in Croatia which was prompted by the persecution of the Serbs --

18 JUDGE MAY: He's given his evidence about it. He can't answer

19 these questions of that sort. They are matters which we may have to

20 decide, but this witness can't help us about it.

21 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

22 Q. Very well. Do you remember, as this was common knowledge in

23 Yugoslavia, that the Presidency of Yugoslavia, in full composition, at a

24 session on the 7th and 8th of May, 1991, which was also attended by the

25 prime minister of the federal government, who was from Croatia, Ante

Page 10931

1 Markovic, as well as the presidents of the presidencies of all the

2 republics, that they adopted a conclusion to form immediately a parity

3 group consisting of representatives of the Republic of Croatia and the

4 legitimate representatives of the Serb people in Croatia for initiating

5 talks on all disputed matters, the main ones being the constitutional

6 equality of the Croatian and Serb peoples, the language, the alphabet, et

7 cetera, et cetera? That was within the context of the things that you

8 were involved in, that is, the so-called Serbian amendments to the

9 Croatian constitution. Do you remember this event?

10 A. Yes, I do remember.

11 Q. Very well, then. Do you remember the decisions to block all

12 barracks of the Yugoslav People's Army in Croatia on the basis of a

13 decision of the leadership in, in the second half of August, 1991, and the

14 decision to attack them, as well as all units of the JNA, on the 14th of

15 September, 1991? Do you remember those decisions?

16 A. I heard of those decisions, but I cannot tell you exactly from

17 which sources. I do remember those decisions, because they were widely

18 discussed.

19 Q. You heard of the decisions and you remember that such decisions

20 were made, but do you remember the actual practice, what was actually done

21 pursuant to those decisions, that is, the blockade of barracks, attacks on

22 members of the JNA, at a time when Croatia was a legitimate component part

23 of the territory of Yugoslavia, their attacks on the army of Yugoslavia,

24 the Yugoslav People's Army?

25 JUDGE MAY: Tell us, witness 37, what you saw or heard yourself,

Page 10932

1 not what you may have heard on the radio what was happening in X, Y, and

2 Z. But tell us what you saw, if anything, of what is being put to you

3 here.

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I was not close to a

5 single barracks, and I was not in a position of seeing any such

6 blockades. I heard about them and I saw it on television and learnt about

7 them from the media. I was not in a position to personally witness these

8 things.

9 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

10 Q. Is it true that refugees, in large waves, set off in the autumn of

11 1991?

12 A. They started, one can say, in waves. Whether they were large, I

13 said in reference to Grubisno Polje, between 3.000 and 5.000 people, then

14 later on 15.000, those were the figures of people leaving Western

15 Slavonia.

16 Q. And the reason for them to leave was the pressure of the Croatian

17 forces against them. That surely is not in dispute.

18 A. I answered that question yesterday, that at the time there were no

19 large concentrations of forces in the area, but there was a developed

20 awareness among the people that they were alone, they were weak, they

21 lacked the strength to defend themselves, and with the commanders of the

22 TO and with the retreat of their families, they left the area, which, as I

23 said yesterday, was subsequently devastated.

24 Q. Very well. Let me just look.

25 Because of the limited time, I cannot show you the films and

Page 10933

1 documents, but, for instance, are you aware of facts referred to in this

2 document, for instance? It is a report of the United Nations, the command

3 of sector West. So Sector West was your sector, wasn't it?

4 A. Yes, it was. It is a report on crimes committed against the

5 civilian population in Western Slavonia --

6 Q. And that is the Sector West, Safe Area of the United Nations, and

7 this was a report compiled by the UN. Do you remember that report? It is

8 one particular report signed by Musali on behalf of the commander of the

9 Sector West. And it says, for instance, that in the village of Paklenica,

10 the property of Mr. Solaja, people were slaughtered: Mica Teodorcevic, a

11 veteran without a leg from the village of Paklenica; Nikola Vojnovic;

12 Milan Brdjac [phoen] wounded; Aleksa Raus, a nurse; Senka Raus, a nurse;

13 Ruza Solaja, a nurse; Dusan Hasura, from the village of Rajici; Mitar

14 Vujakelja [phoen], who was wounded in the head --

15 JUDGE MAY: Can you assist the Court as to these matters? Do you

16 know anything yourself of your direct knowledge, anything about them,

17 Witness C-037?

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I heard of these

19 events, but I didn't have occasion to see that report.

20 THE INTERPRETER: The microphone, please.

21 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

22 Q. As you see, even nurses had their throats slit, according to the

23 report of the United Nations?

24 JUDGE MAY: Now, Mr. Milosevic, do you want us to have that

25 report? We haven't got it now. Maybe the Prosecution have got a copy.

Page 10934

1 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: No, Your Honour, I'm not aware of this now.

2 JUDGE MAY: You don't know about this report.

3 Well, Mr. Milosevic, if you want to put the report in, you can.

4 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I could put in lots of such reports,

5 so do admit it. There's no problem in that.

6 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

7 Q. For instance, do you have any knowledge about a report of Sector

8 West, for the department for civil affairs, for instance, this one? All

9 these things must exist in the original in the archives of the United

10 Nations organisation. This is Sector West, the civilian police, UN,

11 station Okucani.

12 "On the road to Novska we saw many terrible scenes, at

13 least 50 corpses along the road. They were Serbs, soldiers, and

14 civilians. Many houses were destroyed, shelled," et cetera.

15 Do you remember those reports? Or, for instance -- or, for

16 instance, a report just for your sector. We also have the

17 Dalmacija-Zagreb-Gorni Koviljaca-Baranska sector. But just for the

18 Slavonian eparchy a report of the church, 39 churches, 35 parochial homes

19 destroyed in the eparchy of Slavonia, and 40 churches damaged, 15

20 parochial homes and the eparchy residence in Pakracka destroyed. Did you

21 have this report? Did you ever learn anything about this report?

22 JUDGE MAY: Have you seen that report?

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I haven't seen that report.

24 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Milosevic, the way to get this evidence before us

25 is to hand in the reports. Now, just help us with this: What is the

Page 10935

1 church report that you've been quoting? Which church and what date, if

2 you please?

3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The report of the Serbian Orthodox

4 Church in the Republic of Croatia, the state of church facilities after

5 the expulsion, according to data of the Serb Orthodox Church. That's the

6 report. And the other reports that I quoted from about the cutting of

7 throats of nurses and veterans without a leg, and other victims, these are

8 reports from the United Nations, the command of Sector West of civilian

9 affairs and Sector West civilian police of the station Okucani. This I

10 just happen to have here with me right now, but if you are interested in

11 the truth, you could get all of those reports for you to find out what was

12 going on. Because at least the sources of the UN --

13 JUDGE MAY: Yes. We will get those reports, but --

14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] And these can be entered as

15 exhibits, these two reports here that I have provided. Please go ahead.

16 JUDGE MAY: Let the usher get those and we'll have a look.

17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I assume --

18 JUDGE MAY: Just a moment. We'll consider.

19 [Trial Chamber confers]

20 JUDGE MAY: These are in B/C/S. We will hand them to the -- we'll

21 hand them to the Prosecution. We will then mark them for identification.

22 They can be translated. And perhaps the Prosecution, certainly in

23 relation to the UN reports, could get the full reports that are being

24 referred to here.

25 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: [Microphone not activated]

Page 10936

1 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

2 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: As soon as we have these documents, we will

3 check whether we have a full version of this document within our vault and

4 see whether we can provide the English version.

5 JUDGE MAY: It may be convenient now to give them numbers. The UN

6 report can be the first one, and the church report the second.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, the UN report will be marked for

8 identification as D41 and the church report will be marked for

9 identification as D42.

10 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

11 Q. I would like to hear your comments about information that I have

12 here from the UN KRO political and humanitarian affairs, the sector of

13 Daruvar, and I have the municipality of Pakrac here, which shows,

14 according to the different settlements, a comparison before April 1991 and

15 October 1995. For example, Batinjani, before April 1991, 154 Serb

16 citizens, 55 Croats; in October 1995, Serbs, 0; Biljaci [phoen], October

17 1995, Serbs, 0; Branesci, October 1995, Serbs, 0. Allow me to read

18 wherever there is -- Bucesi [phoen], Svera [phoen], Breza, Donji Obrijez,

19 all of these places number 0 Serbs, Donja Sumetlica, Donji Grahovljami,

20 and further on is illegible. Then Gornji Grahovo, Jakovci, Koturici,

21 Lipovac, Mali, Banovac, Mali Budici, Ozegovci, Popovci, Preko Praka, Prg

22 Male [phoen], Ragule [phoen], Srednji Grahovo, Spanovica, Tisovac, Toranj

23 Veliki, Banovac, Veliki Budic, and so on.

24 So the number of the population in 1995, the number that was then,

25 has been now reduced to a 0. Do you know anything about this?

Page 10937












12 Blank pages inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts. Pages 10937 to 10953













Page 10954

1 A. Yes, I know about that, and that is how it was.

2 Q. So is this ethnic cleansing?

3 A. Yes, in those villages.

4 Q. Well, yes. You say in those villages. But now we're giving you a

5 total in the municipality of Pakrac. Before April --

6 JUDGE MAY: Now, do you want us to look at this document?

7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May, I would just like to ask

8 the witness something, because I don't have two copies of this, and I need

9 to ask him something, because this illustrates something that you do not

10 understand, and it would be good for you to see so you could understand.

11 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

12 Q. A total of 16.300 citizens, the majority of that are Serbs, 7.806

13 are Serbs, 7.806. In that region, only 564 Serb citizens have remained in

14 that whole area, so it has been cleansed 93 per cent. The remainder of

15 the Serbs could be boiled down to a statistical error?

16 JUDGE MAY: [Previous translation continues] ... question to the

17 witness. These are all assertions by you. Now, what area are you talking

18 about, first of all? What area are we talking about?

19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I'm only talking about his

20 municipality now, because I want to give you a clear example.

21 JUDGE MAY: Now, those are the -- just a moment. Let the witness

22 deal with it, because it's his evidence that we're dealing with.

23 You see the -- you remember the various figures that were put

24 there. Can you assist us as to whether they're correct or not?

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I remember the numbers. They are

Page 10955

1 correct. You talked about half the municipality, that there was 7.900.

2 Well, no. In the municipality of Pakrac, there were about 14.000 Serbs,

3 but in October 1995, there were 1.200 Serbs, because we did keep records

4 of that in 1995. When you asked me specifically about the villages that

5 you mentioned, and you asked me about ethnic cleansing, when you

6 specifically asked me about the villages, I said that yes, there was

7 ethnic cleansing specifically in those villages. So I didn't respond to

8 something that you didn't ask me about. In the area of municipality of

9 Pakrac, in those villages, ethnic cleansing was carried out. The number

10 of Serbs was reduced to a minimum, houses were torched, their apartments

11 were confiscated and they did not have any place to come back to.

12 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

13 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

14 Q. So 14.000 something Serbs. How many Serbs were there?

15 A. I think 14.600 or 14.800.

16 Q. Okay. 14.600 or 14.800. And now you have 1.200.

17 A. No. In October 1995, there were 1.200. Now there are about 2.700

18 or 2.800.

19 Q. So they came back?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. So let's put these figures into perspective. 14.600 to 14.700 [as

22 interpreted] and 1.200 indicates that, when you look at the municipality,

23 ethnic cleansing was carried out to a degree of 93 per cent. There was

24 only 7 or 8 per cent Serbs left. Now, when these people came back, it

25 turns out that in 2002 the situation regarding ethnic cleansing in that

Page 10956

1 area is still 80 per cent. So the number of people who returned are still

2 fewer than 20 per cent of the Serb population that was there at that

3 time. Is that so or not so?

4 A. Yes. I'm not --

5 JUDGE MAY: I think the stenographer is having problems and five

6 minutes are necessary.

7 Let me just look at our timing. We'll take a ten-minute break and

8 reduce the breaks from then on. In fact, if we have a quarter-of-an-hour

9 break now we can then sit until 1.00 thereafter.

10 --- Break taken at 11.20 a.m.

11 --- On resuming at 11.40 a.m.

12 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Milosevic, before we lose the point, do you want

13 the report, the Pakrac report that you referred to, the UN report, do you

14 want that exhibited too?

15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes.

16 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Would you hand it in, please.

17 Just a moment. We'll get a number for it.

18 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this will be marked Prosecutor's

19 Exhibit D43.

20 JUDGE MAY: It's at the moment marked for identification. You

21 said Prosecutor's Exhibit.

22 THE REGISTRAR: Defence Exhibit D43. I apologise.

23 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Milosevic, you have 50 minutes more for your

24 cross-examination, and that will allow the other parties a few minutes to

25 re-examine.

Page 10957

1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well, Mr. May. I will hurry.

2 But before that, I would just like to clarify one question. You said that

3 the witness, in principle, a witness in principle, and this one

4 specifically, can talk about things that he took part in and that he has

5 personal knowledge of, and I understand that. It is logical. However, if

6 this is so, and if it is logical, it is not clear to me why you allow,

7 during the examination-in-chief, for documents to be introduced which have

8 nothing to do with this witness and allow remarks for which on many

9 occasions he has said that he has heard about them from the media but

10 doesn't have any personal knowledge of that. And particularly if it has

11 to do with documents that he has no personal knowledge of. And very many

12 such documents have been admitted, so --

13 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Milosevic, you can make your objection when we

14 come to specific evidence, and we'll consider it, but there is little

15 point asking a witness, as you have done on occasion, about what he heard

16 on the radio or something of that sort, when there are very general points

17 to be made by you. Now, let's try and move on.

18 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

19 Q. Very well. So you are familiar with the broader area of Western

20 Slavonia, where the Serb population was left without protection with the

21 withdrawal of the JNA, especially near Okucani and Pakrac and there was

22 this large exodus where tens of thousands of citizens left the area of

23 Slatina and other areas on horse carts and so on. Do you remember that a

24 decision of the government of Yugoslavia and the date is the 3rd of

25 November, 1991, sent a letter to Lord Carrington, as the chairman of the

Page 10958

1 conference, and also Mr. van den Broek, since the Netherlands also was, at

2 that time, chairman of the 12 and he was the president of the council of

3 the economic community, so those areas of Croatia were unprotected because

4 they were at the -- exposed to strikes by the Croat forces. So do you

5 remember that this was information that was forwarded to Lord Carrington

6 and Mr. van den Broek?

7 A. There was something incorrect in your question. The JNA did not

8 withdraw from Western Slavonia to Pakrac, because it was not there in

9 Pakrac, but the Territorial Defence units withdrew together with the

10 population, the JNA was from -- was at Okucani, and up to Stara Gradiska

11 up to Pakrac. So it wasn't in Pakrac. I remember that.

12 The other thing is I do remember such a letter being sent, and I

13 heard that from the media. I was in Western Slavonia and was not in a

14 position to see something like that.

15 Q. You claim that the army did not advance beyond Pakrac but you

16 don't know anything about the reasons why that was so; is that true?

17 A. Yes, it is.

18 Q. So that is noted. You say that some group carried out murders in

19 Vucin but you didn't see that personally; is that true?

20 A. No, I didn't see it myself, no.

21 Q. Is it true that you didn't even report anything to anybody

22 regarding this murder in Vocin?

23 A. No, I did not report it to anybody, because when I heard about it,

24 it was already late December, and I reacted on this issue via the media.

25 Q. Is it true that you have no idea whether anybody kept the

Page 10959

1 authorities in Belgrade informed about this event?

2 A. No. No, I don't know that.

3 Q. You also mentioned some units of Vuk Draskovic and other

4 paramilitary formations. You yourself don't know anything about those

5 paramilitary formations; is that so?

6 A. I don't know anything about those paramilitary organisations, and

7 I did make a correction, and I said that those were not units of Vuk

8 Draskovic; they were ascribed to Seselj. But I don't know anything about

9 them.

10 Q. You ascribed them to Seselj, but you don't know whether they were

11 Seselj's or not?

12 A. The citizens thought that they belonged to him, particularly after

13 Seselj came and reviewed his volunteer units.

14 Q. A group of those people whom you claim were his volunteers, you

15 saw them without weapons; is that true? This is what I heard during the

16 examination-in-chief.

17 A. The group, when it arrived, I saw a group without weapons, and I

18 saw a group with weapons, and I said that this was near the village of

19 Glavica, and I also stated that during the examination-in-chief.

20 Q. You mentioned a group of people, among whom was a person called

21 Rastovic, who exerted pressure on certain groups of people. You mentioned

22 an incident where he threatened you with a pistol, and you also mentioned

23 Milan Babic as belonging to that group of extremists. My question is: Is

24 it true that you never heard that Babic threatened anybody or asked -- or

25 demand that somebody be killed? You never heard him say that; is that

Page 10960

1 so or not?

2 A. No, I never heard Babic demand that anybody be killed.

3 Q. So as far as I understand, you don't have any knowledge, and you

4 don't know anything regarding the distribution of weapons or anything

5 about Martic's involvement in that, even though you testified about Martic

6 as well.

7 A. I don't know about the distribution of weapons that he carried

8 out.

9 Q. You say Martic had support from Belgrade and that Martic was

10 informed about the crimes. You say that he was informed about the crimes

11 carried out by his police forces and that he did not punish or dismiss

12 anybody. This is what you claim. But you don't have any knowledge either

13 about the alleged crimes which you ascribed to Martic, or about his

14 activities. Is this true or not?

15 A. I assumed that Martic, who was the chief of police down there, was

16 informed about what was going on and what his men were doing, so I based

17 my conclusion on that. I wasn't next to him, so I was not able to see

18 what he was doing and how he was doing it, but I drew my conclusion based

19 on the fact that he was the chief of police and that he was leading those

20 units.

21 Q. You confirmed my question about Croats who were living normally in

22 Knin and Martic told me about them, that there was no discrimination, that

23 they were able to live normal lives, and you confirmed that. You said

24 yesterday that you knew that Croats who lived there normally and without

25 any pressure whatsoever, they lived there in their own houses; is that so

Page 10961

1 or not?

2 A. Yes, I said that. I know that there were Croats in Knin, that

3 there were many mixed marriages, there were many friends, and I know that

4 they lived there. But I did not say that there were also Croats who were

5 left, and there were such Croats who left. I don't know specifically

6 who but I heard that Croats had left Knin.

7 Q. So if you don't know about what I just asked you about, how can

8 you know that individuals under the command of Martic carried out crimes

9 and that he knew about that and that he did not wish to punish anyone?

10 Did you inform anybody at any time, anybody in Belgrade, for example,

11 about those crimes?

12 A. During 1991, I didn't hear anything. I didn't have the

13 opportunity to do that. It was a long way away. So I just heard about

14 that. And if I had heard about that, I expected that others had heard

15 about that too. So it wasn't up to me to deal with matters like that

16 when there were people there who were responsible for such matters.

17 THE ACCUSED: I assume, Mr. May, that you will tell me that some

18 of my questions have to be in closed session, so may we briefly go into

19 closed session so that I will not disrupt your proceedings.

20 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're in private session.

21 [Private session]

22 [redacted]

23 [redacted]

24 [redacted]

25 [redacted]

Page 10962












12 Page 10962 – redacted – private session














Page 10963












12 Page 10963 – redacted – private session














Page 10964

1 [redacted]

2 [redacted]

3 [redacted]

4 [redacted]

5 [redacted]

6 [redacted]

7 [redacted]

8 [redacted]

9 [redacted]

10 [Open session]

11 THE REGISTRAR: We're back into open session, Your Honours.

12 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

13 Q. I want to put only a few questions to you in connection with your

14 examination-in-chief. You were shown the territory, and the question was

15 asked of you as to when this area was put under Serb control, and you said

16 in late 1991. Is this correct?

17 A. I don't know what map you are referring to and what area, because

18 in late 1991, only the area around Knin, Benkovac, Gradacac, and Lapac

19 was under Serb control, later it expanded.

20 Q. Well, your explanation that the Serbs put this area under their

21 control and the very term "control," is it evident that this was an area

22 where the Serbs had lived for at least a few centuries? Is this in

23 dispute or not?

24 A. Yes, this is an area that they had inhabited for several

25 centuries.

Page 10965

1 Q. Were Catholic churches destroyed?

2 A. Yes, they were.

3 JUDGE KWON: Just a minute, Mr. Milosevic. Is the map you are

4 referring to the tab 5 of Exhibit 326?

5 Can the witness be shown the map?

6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well. To avoid wasting time,

7 the point I wanted to make, Mr. Kwon, was that putting territories under

8 control does not mean that the Serbs occupied somebody else's territory.

9 These were territories they had inhabited for centuries. The map itself

10 doesn't have any major significance.

11 JUDGE KWON: Put the map on the ELMO. I think that's tab 6,

12 but is this the map you're referring to? Is it right?

13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I wasn't thinking of the map

14 itself. I was speaking of the year 1991, but this was brought up because

15 a map was shown to him. He has already answered my question, Mr. Kwon. I

16 don't want to waste any time discussing maps.

17 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

18 Q. I asked you then whether Catholic churches had been destroyed,

19 whether you know about a Catholic church that was destroyed.

20 A. Yes, the one in Okucani.

21 Q. So you know about one Catholic church. Do you know of any others?

22 A. I've heard of some in Dalmacija, but I don't know the names of the

23 villages, just as I did not keep a record of Serbian churches, I didn't

24 keep a record on Catholic churches.

25 Q. Very well. Recently I showed you a list of tens -- of dozens of

Page 10966

1 Orthodox churches that had been destroyed and you said you knew about

2 those, or didn't you?

3 A. I said I knew about some churches. You asked me about the number,

4 and I said I didn't know the exact number because it was the church that

5 kept these records. I know that some churches were destroyed, yes.

6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] In order to save time, let's

7 proceed.

8 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

9 Q. You were asked during the examination-in-chief, when you mentioned

10 that meeting, whether any party contacts with the socialist party, did you

11 have any party contacts with my party?

12 A. Personally, no.

13 Q. Do you know that the socialist party is a left-wing party and that

14 the Serb Democratic Party, at the elections in Serbia, was an opposition

15 party?

16 A. Yes, I know this.

17 Q. So what sort of collaboration are you talking about when you talk

18 about collaboration between the Socialist Party and the party you say you

19 know was in the opposition at the elections?

20 A. I was referring to the SDS from Croatia. As far as I can recall,

21 Babic and several others said they had contacts. What sort of contacts, I

22 don't know, and whether they actually had them or not.

23 Q. You said that the media was under government control. Do you

24 remember that in these same media you claim were under government control,

25 which is not correct, your then minister of foreign affairs wrote an

Page 10967

1 article against me in which he even claimed - I ask you if you remember

2 this - that Cyrus Vance had bribed me with 120 million dollars to accept

3 the arrival of UN troops and to support this in the area where later on

4 the UN zones were established? Do you remember this? This was in the

5 Belgrade press, the Yugoslav press.

6 A. I don't know what minister you're referring to.

7 Q. It was Caslav Vocic at the time.

8 A. It's possible, but I don't know about this because I didn't know

9 Caslav Vocic. I never met him. I'm not saying it didn't happen.

10 Q. When speaking of control over the media and, as you say, that the

11 media allegedly worked against the interests of peace, and I say this

12 cannot be linked up with the authorities in Belgrade, but did you say

13 during your examination-in-chief that you only heard about the alleged

14 camps in Knin and Udbina from the Croatian media? Is this correct?

15 A. Yes, that's correct.

16 Q. So you only heard about this from the Croatian media. You know

17 nothing of it?

18 A. I know nothing of them.

19 Q. Very well. You said -- or rather, you mentioned a colonel or I'm

20 not sure what his rank was. I think he was a colonel, Celeketic, who

21 as you say, came from Yugoslavia. Where was Colonel Celeketic from?

22 A. As far as I heard, he was born in Kikinda. He was in the barracks

23 in Bjelovar. In 1991 he came to Okucani. Later on, I don't know where he

24 went, but he turned up again in 1993, in Okucani.

25 Q. So he was in Bjelovar?

Page 10968

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Very well. You said a lot about the manner in which things

3 functioned within the Republic of Srpska Krajina. Do you know whether

4 anyone imposed anything on you from outside with respect to your political

5 positions, your behaviour or attitudes, and so on and so forth? Do you

6 know anything about this?

7 A. I know only that the Association of Serbs in Croatia interfered

8 and radicalised matters against Jovan Raskovic and in favour of Babic.

9 Their pressure was exerted in this direction.

10 Q. Well, that's another matter. That's your internal problem. But

11 as far as I can recall the reactions of Belgrade, can you confirm these

12 were always aimed exclusively, if there were any suggestions or, as you

13 say, pressures, in the direction of accepting a peaceful solution,

14 accepting the Vance plan, Vance-Owen Plan, the arrival of the UN,

15 cooperation with them and opening up dialogue between Zagreb and Knin? Is

16 this true or not?

17 A. I have already spoken of this in my testimony.

18 Q. Are you aware of the fact that the Zagreb Knin dialogue was opened

19 up and that Nikolic and Sardonic negotiated on several occasions, that the

20 main road was opened up, that there was economic cooperation and so on,

21 and that on both sides the governments discussed this, it was written

22 about in the media, Owen and Stoltenberg mediated in this respect, they

23 had a meeting at the Zagreb airport, Pleso airport. Do you know about

24 these activities?

25 A. I know about these activities. I know there was resistance to

Page 10969

1 them and I know that because of this, the presidents of the municipalities

2 of the Republic of Serbian Krajina went to see you, that you supported the

3 opening up of the motor way and the opening up of a dialogue between

4 Zagreb and the Krajina.

5 Q. At one point you said that the Serbian state security incited

6 people at rallies. Did you say that? Did you say that on the basis of

7 your personal knowledge or did you hear about this from someone else or

8 didn't you -- maybe you didn't say it at all.

9 A. I didn't say that this was done by the security services of

10 Serbia. What I said was that it was security agents who did this in the

11 field. But what services they actually belonged to, whether they were

12 local ones, I didn't say that.

13 Q. Very well. According to my notes, because your testimony was

14 given a few days ago, you said that refugees from Croatia were sent on to

15 Kosovo. Did you mention that?

16 A. Yes, I did.

17 Q. Where did you find this out?

18 A. I heard this from some of the refugees.

19 Q. From some of the refugees who went to Kosovo?

20 A. I heard it from some refugees who were in the column but didn't go

21 to Kosovo. They told me that some had been sent to Kosovo.

22 Q. Do you know that Kosovo makes up 10 per cent of the territory of

23 Serbia? This is a geographical fact. And are you aware of the fact that

24 only one per cent, that is, ten times below the average, of the refugees

25 went to the area of Kosovo and Metohija within Serbia, which is ten times

Page 10970

1 less than went to other parts of Serbia? Are you aware of this? Only one

2 per cent of these refugees went to Kosovo.

3 A. I wasn't talking about figures and how many refugees went where in

4 Serbia, nor do I know what percentage of the territories taken up by

5 Kosovo. I only know that they went to the south of Serbia, and I

6 mentioned Kosovo. I didn't say they went exclusively to Kosovo.

7 Q. You accept, then, the fact that in view of the figures I have put

8 forward, the least amount of refugees went in the direction of Kosovo.

9 Did you mention that Croats were expelled from Serbia? I have a note

10 about this, but I'm not sure what words you actually used. You were

11 referring to Vojvodina primarily.

12 A. Yes, I did say that. Based on statements made by some Croats who

13 arrived in Western Slavonia and said they had been expelled from their

14 villages. I have no other knowledge apart from this.

15 Q. So you have no knowledge about this?

16 A. I was not in Vojvodina, so I didn't see these events. I made my

17 statement on the basis of what I heard from Croats who arrived in Western

18 Slavonia, asking for a place to live, and some of them, as I remember,

19 went to Korenica. And my statement was made on the basis of what they

20 said.

21 Q. Have you ever heard of a single example of the torching of

22 someone's house or the looting of the property of any Croat in Serbia or

23 the forcible expulsion of any individual there?

24 A. As for burnings of houses, I didn't hear that, but I have told you

25 what I did hear.

Page 10971

1 Q. You heard this from some Croat who arrived in Western Slavonia; is

2 that correct?

3 A. Yes, I did.

4 Q. Are you aware of the fact that throughout the ten years of the

5 Yugoslav crisis, it is only in Serbia that the ethnic make-up of the

6 population didn't change at all? Are you aware of this?

7 A. I have heard of this.

8 Q. You mentioned that the Serbs who escaped, who fled from Western

9 Slavonia were arrested. Were they arrested in Serbia by anyone?

10 A. I think I heard there were such incidents, that they were arrested

11 there and taken to Bosnia. I think I heard that.

12 Q. Well, I just wanted to know how certain you were of this. You

13 said that some of them were arrested in Eastern Slavonia. Is this correct

14 or not?

15 A. I'm sure they were arrested and mistreated and beaten up and

16 humiliated in Eastern Slavonia, and this is what I said.

17 Q. But you don't have any such knowledge about Serbia?

18 A. Not any specific knowledge, but I think I did hear of several

19 people who were arrested and taken to the front.

20 Q. Where were they taken?

21 A. I think they were taken to the front in Bosnia.

22 Q. They were arrested and several of those hundreds of thousands who

23 fled, do you have any explanation which should be logical?

24 A. No, I don't.

25 Q. And you have no personal knowledge about that, do you?

Page 10972

1 A. No.

2 Q. Who told you that, then?

3 A. I heard about it after the Storm Operation, several months later,

4 when people got together and started talking about those events. I think

5 it was then.

6 Q. So these were rumours after the Operation Storm, that is, the

7 ethnic cleansing of Serbs from Croatia and the offensive against Krajina;

8 is that right?

9 A. I said what I heard after those events. I have no other evidence

10 except what I heard.

11 Q. Mr. C-037, at the time of the attack on the territories inhabited

12 by Serbs, is it disputed that those territories were under the protection

13 of the United Nations, so-called UN-Protected Areas? They were known as

14 UNPA zones, United Nations-Protected Areas. Is that right or not?

15 A. Yes, that is right.

16 Q. Is it then true that all those large-scale attacks, when in

17 Western Slavonia the number were expelled that we have already mentioned,

18 then in the Knin Krajina, and the other 250.000 people, and these numerous

19 crimes, that all these occurred in areas that were under United Nations

20 protection?

21 A. It is true.

22 Q. Is it true that the Serbs agreed to the plan to be placed under

23 United Nations protection and that they were promised to be protected

24 until a political solution was found?

25 A. Yes.

Page 10973

1 Q. And were they protected until a political solution was found or

2 were they expelled as a result of these crimes committed against them in

3 the presence of the United Nations forces?

4 A. They were not protected, obviously, when all this happened.

5 Q. Do you believe that a crime was committed against the Serbs with

6 the co-responsibility of the United Nations?

7 JUDGE MAY: Not a matter for the witness. His opinion about that

8 is not relevant.

9 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation] Very well.

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours --

11 JUDGE MAY: Yes.

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If I may add, the Serbian side also

13 made an omission, a significant one. According to the Vance plan, they

14 should have been demilitarised, which means the heavy weapons should have

15 been placed under UN control and only the police was to be left with

16 weapons. We did that in Western Slavonia, and we were given written

17 guarantees that we would be protected. The rest did not do that. Later

18 on, in the course of 1993 and 1994, weapons were taken and given to people

19 who formed units. When I spoke to the commander in Western Slavonia,

20 General Zabalo, about protection, because people were afraid if they

21 were not protected, that they would get killed. His answer was as

22 follows, and I would like to quote him. I don't know whether that would

23 be the same now, but he said: If both sides have weapons and use them,

24 then the United Nations units will not put themselves in between the two,

25 because they would get killed as a result of conflicts. But if

Page 10974

1 demilitarisation is completed and the weapons placed under control, then

2 the United Nations will take upon itself full responsibility.

3 And this was the omission made by the Krajina authorities, what

4 weapons they had proved to be insufficient, and using them or not using

5 them could not protect the people.

6 I do not in this way relieve Croatia of the responsibility for

7 what it did in this area, especially after the exodus of the population,

8 but I do consider that the political leadership of Krajina is also

9 responsible if it accepted the Vance plan, why didn't it carry it out

10 fully and thereby transfer full responsibility to the international

11 forces, which would have to accept that responsibility. In this way, an

12 excuse or justification, or I don't know what, was given to them, for them

13 to say demilitarisation was not carried out and we cannot place our forces

14 between two armed formations. Whether they were equally well armed or

15 not, I don't know, because I'm not a military expert, but I believe, and I

16 repeat, that I think part of the responsibility is with the people who

17 represented the people -- with the authorities, not the people, exposing

18 the population to the danger and to the events that occurred there.

19 JUDGE MAY: Before you go on, let's just clarify something.

20 General Zabalo, who you spoke to, was he the UN commander in Western

21 Slavonia.

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honours. He was the

23 commander of the Sector West up until the end of February 1993.

24 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

25 Q. We'll come back to that, but let's clear up one point. Since you

Page 10975

1 skipped over some -- or at least one very important detail. First of all,

2 do you remember that according to the Vance plan, which the Serbs

3 accepted, the weapons, true, had to be placed under a double key: One key

4 would be in the hands of the Krajina Serbs and the other in the hands of

5 the UN, and the Serbs did hand over their weapons and they did carry out

6 the demilitarisation and it was only the police that was left with what

7 they called side arms, that is, pistols. Do you remember, therefore, that

8 they did fulfil their obligation but that they took up arms again from

9 those same depots when they were attacked, and not before they were

10 attacked? You should know this, and you probably do have this book,

11 because I don't have time --

12 JUDGE MAY: Just a moment. Let the witness answer the point

13 that's made. Just a moment. The point that is made is that the Krajina

14 Serbs in fact complied, but it's said they took up arms when they were

15 attacked. Can you help us as to that or not?

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They resorted to tanks and cannon

17 then, but not long barrel weapons, because they were present in the

18 territory of Krajina. And when I was mobilised, I saw that people were

19 carrying rifles, and this was also contrary to the Vance plan. And the

20 best guarantee is if the international forces that are present, that are

21 supervising the area and who are intended to protect the area, that they

22 say that the disarming has been done, and not by certain officials who

23 judge the disarming according to their own criteria.

24 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

25 Q. C-037, here's a book about the Miljevac Plateau of 1992, are you

Page 10976

1 familiar with that book, which discusses the attack against an area again

2 under UN protection? Are you familiar with this book?

3 A. I'm familiar with the events. I have not seen the book. I know

4 that those people were massacred, even in Croatia. I saw a video

5 recording of those events, the Miljevac Plateau, when a film was made

6 against the crimes against Serbs in Croatia.

7 Q. You have this offensive against UNPAs in 1993, Maslenica?

8 A. I've heard of those events too, but I haven't seen that book.

9 Q. And do you have a book on the expulsion of Serbs from Krajina in

10 1995?

11 A. I don't have that book either.

12 Q. And do you at least have the book concerning Western Slavonia, May

13 1995, and the exodus of Serbs from Western Slavonia?

14 A. Unfortunately, I was not given that book either.

15 Q. Well, let me just tell you that from Western Slavonia and

16 quoting from a letter by Yasushi Akashi, a special envoy of the UN

17 Secretary-General, who says the government of the republic of Croatia

18 should immediately halt the military offensive launched by its forces in

19 the area of Western Slavonia, known as the Sector West, which it started

20 on the 1st of May, 1995, in the morning, in violation of the agreement on

21 the cessation of hostilities of the 29th of March, 1994?

22 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Milosevic, let me get the chronology right. The

23 indictment is dealing with events in 1990 and 1991. What is the relevance

24 of events in 1995? You've been given considerable leeway to go into those

25 events, but I'm concerned that they may have no relevance at all to what

Page 10977

1 happened five years earlier. It may be there was, and I don't take a

2 view. It may be there was an attack at that stage. But is it of any

3 assistance, is it of any relevance at all during the trial?

4 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I just wanted to establish, Mr. May,

5 that in addition to crimes being committed and a complete ethnic cleansing

6 of Serbs from Croatia, those crimes were committed in a territory and at a

7 time when that territory was under the protection of the United Nations.

8 JUDGE MAY: What's the relevance of that? What is the relevance

9 of that to this trial, what happened in 1990 and 1991? You seem to lose

10 the focus which is necessary in a trial, which is on the particular

11 charges, not on other wrongs that may have been done at some other time.

12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May, if you dwell only on the

13 years 1990 and 1991 and 1992, then you will see that what I'm claiming is

14 true, and that is that in those years, the Serbs were defending themselves

15 against a pogrom and that from the moment the United Nations forces

16 arrived, they trusted those forces and expected to be protected until a

17 political settlement was found. They handed over their weapons under

18 double key and they took them back only after the attacks that are

19 described in these books in order to defend themselves, because they were

20 not protected by the United Nations, as they were promised they would be.

21 JUDGE MAY: Well, the books are not admissible. They're various

22 opinions. We admit reports and the like, but I doubt those books have any

23 value, although we'll consider them in due course if you want to put them

24 in.

25 Mr. Kay, I don't want to take up time with -- I'm sorry. I don't

Page 10978

1 want to take up time. The accused has another five minutes. But in

2 relation to the events in Kosovo, where, of course, there was a direct

3 relevance of the activities of the KLA and also there was maybe relevance

4 to the NATO bombing, you put in a paper, or the amici put in a paper,

5 concerning the scope of cross-examination. I would find it helpful myself

6 to find a similar paper in relation to events in Croatia, because for the

7 moment I am not convinced of the relevance of events in 1995 to an

8 indictment which is concerned with 1990 and 1991. But if may be you would

9 like to reflect on that.

10 MR. KAY: We will certainly attempt to do that for the Trial

11 Chamber. It may well be here that the accused is dealing with an entire

12 picture that the Prosecution have made against him, asserting that he has

13 been double-dealing, that he didn't keep to promises, and in many respects

14 that the whole period from 1990 up to 1999, as characterised by the way

15 the Prosecution put their case, is something that the accused feels he

16 needs to deal with in this particular way, to demonstrate that he in fact

17 was attempting to abide by international agreements, so far as he could.

18 JUDGE MAY: But to use the argument that because wrongs were done

19 to Serbs in 1995, it justified behaviour in 1991 is one which I will need

20 to be convinced of.

21 MR. KAY: The context that I put it in is the picture that the

22 Prosecution have presented to this Trial Chamber in opening their cases.

23 JUDGE MAY: It's not a matter we can debate now, although I opened

24 it up. Time is limited. The accused should have his extra five minutes

25 and then you should be able to cross-examine. But perhaps you can put a

Page 10979

1 paper on it and we'll take it from there.

2 Yes, Mr. Milosevic. You want to add a bit more? I've asked the

3 amici to put a paper in, and when that's in, you can address us on it.

4 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] You just said that I was trying to

5 explain, by events in 1945, what happened in 1991, which is absolutely

6 incorrect, because the violence --

7 JUDGE MAY: 1995. 1995. Not 1945. 1995.

8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] It is not true that what happened in

9 1991 -- 1995 - I'm trying to explain what happened in 1991. On the

10 contrary. I have shown here that the violence against the Serbs started

11 already in 1989, 1990, 1991, and 1992. I've been questioning this witness

12 alone about 1991 and 1992. So it is obvious why the United Nations

13 arrived, because those areas needed to be protected. Did they protect

14 them? They did not. Did the Serbs accept them? They did. So it's not

15 what Mr. Kay says, that only I wanted a peaceful solution. The Serbs in

16 Krajina accepted the United Nations and agreed to a political settlement,

17 by political means. But no political solution was found, and they were

18 expelled. I'm talking about crimes committed in a civil war, provoked by

19 the forcible secession of Croatia from Yugoslavia, against Yugoslavia, and

20 especially against the Serb population. And here an inversion is being

21 made. The victim is proclaimed the culprit, and the victim in that civil

22 war in Croatia was the Serb people living on their own territory,

23 Mr. May. And all the events that I have questioned this witness about

24 refer to 1991 and 1992, and prove precisely what I'm alleging, and I'm

25 just showing the fact that what the Serbs agreed to in those United

Page 10980

1 Nations-Protected Areas was not -- did not lead to a political settlement

2 but rather to an aggression and crimes against them. So it is absolutely

3 impossible to reverse things, to turn things upside down.

4 JUDGE ROBINSON: [Previous translation continues] ...

5 cross-examine in relation to any events in 1995.

6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Only the last three minutes,

7 Mr. Robinson. I asked him about this, and I wanted to ask whether these

8 areas from which the Serbs were ethnically cleansed, at the time when this

9 was done, were under the protection of the United Nations. And I wanted

10 that to be established, and nothing more than that. And during the two

11 days of cross-examination, I've spent two minutes on 1995.

12 JUDGE MAY: Five minutes more, Mr. Milosevic.

13 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

14 Q. So, Mr. C-037, is it completely clear that the civil war in

15 Croatia - we were now discussing events in 1990, the amendments of the

16 constitution, the new constitution, the firing of Serbs, the killings,

17 illegal arrests, violence, et cetera, the events that occurred in 1990,

18 1991, and 1992, that these were provoked by violence on the part of the

19 Croatian state at the time in the process of forcible secession from

20 Yugoslavia, violence against the Serb population, and against the Yugoslav

21 army?

22 JUDGE MAY: The witness -- you asked him that and he's given an

23 answer.

24 Do you want to add anything, Witness C-037, to what you've already

25 said on this topic?

Page 10981

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I have nothing more to add. I have

2 said everything I have to say.

3 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

4 Q. So are we quite clear on that point, that this was a civil war?

5 JUDGE MAY: That's a matter we're going to have to decide. That's

6 a matter -- that's a matter of law which has got to be decided by us. Not

7 for the witness to decide.

8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May, you can decide that today

9 is Monday, as far as that is concerned. I was talking here about facts,

10 and all the answers given by the witness confirm the facts that I have

11 presented.

12 JUDGE MAY: Two more questions, if you want.

13 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

14 Q. Mr. C-037, is it your opinion that the civil war was imposed upon

15 the Serbs in Croatia by the behaviour of the Croatian authorities?

16 A. I cannot say that it was imposed upon them, but I can say that

17 tension was provoked, mistrust of Serbs towards the authorities in

18 Croatia, and a split, a serious split, between them occurred, but I

19 wouldn't give any other legal attributes to this.

20 Q. And do you, Mr. C-037, believe that when we're talking about Serbs

21 in Croatia in that civil war, was that war for them a defensive war?

22 A. That is how the Serbs behaved and that is how they felt.

23 Q. That is how they behaved and how they felt. Did you ever hear of

24 any intention on the part of the Serbian Krajina to occupy any part of

25 territory belonging to the Croats?

Page 10982

1 A. No, I didn't hear that.

2 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Kay.

3 Questioned by Mr. Kay:

4 Q. I'll deal with one matter first of all and then I'll deal with

5 Judge Kwon's matters, if I may.

6 [redacted]

7 [redacted]

8 [redacted]

9 [redacted]

10 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour --

11 JUDGE MAY: Was this in private session?

12 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes. This was a private for private session.

13 JUDGE MAY: Into private session then.

14 [Private session]

15 [redacted]

16 [redacted]

17 [redacted]

18 [redacted]

19 [redacted]

20 [redacted]

21 [redacted]

22 [redacted]

23 [redacted]

24 [redacted]

25 [redacted]

Page 10983












12 Page 10983 – redacted – private session














Page 10984












12 Page 10984 – redacted – private session














Page 10985

1 [Open session]

2 THE REGISTRAR: We're now in open session.

3 MR. KAY:

4 Q. If we turn to tab 12 and if that could be put before the witness

5 as well. This is a document about which you were asked questions at the

6 beginning of the week, 30th of September, LiveNote 10434. It's a document

7 from the war crimes department, or department for war crimes, and it's a

8 document that lists various events as having taken place on a date in

9 1991, as well as with a list of names. Are you looking at the B/C/S

10 version at the moment? If you, Witness C-037, if you just look at the

11 B/C/S version rather than the English version.

12 Is it a form of document that you recognise at all in your

13 experience?

14 A. No. I saw it here at the Prosecutor's office for the first time,

15 such a document.

16 Q. Are you in a position to state in any way about its production or

17 how it came into being, from any knowledge of your own?

18 A. I think that this was compiled by the MUP of Croatia, by

19 interviewing the citizens of Vocin and gathering the information about

20 those events. What I saw later, and which was confirmed, and that was the

21 only thing was by naming people who -- Serbs who had committed crimes

22 against Croats, people were mentioned who -- about there was no proof that

23 they had committed them. So the same applies to this document here, that

24 there are too many names here with unsubstantiated claims. So this

25 happened in the case of Vocin as well, and I had heard this from the Croat

Page 10986

1 media and as well as from Serbs.

2 MR. KAY: Thank you. That's all I need asked about it. Does that

3 help Judge Kwon on the matters?

4 JUDGE KWON: Thank you very much.

5 MR. KAY: Your Honour asked me to address you on evidential status

6 about that, but I'm not sure I really need to.

7 Q. Dealing with one other aspect of your evidence, C-037, you gave

8 evidence of discriminating laws against the Serbs in Croatia, concerning

9 their national holidays, their education, other aspects of their life.

10 Are you able to give the dates of those discriminating laws that you were

11 talking about, or the approximate dates?

12 A. I can only give you approximate dates. This was in the course of

13 1990 and 1991 that such laws were enacted.

14 Q. Again, on just one other matter: The proposal that the Serbs

15 weren't a constituent people within Croatia, that you said caused a

16 lack of confidence in the new government, was that about the same time

17 period as well, 1990?

18 A. I think that this was in 1991.

19 Q. And you described in the 1990 elections that there were insulting

20 attitudes towards Serbs by Croatian political parties. Could you tell us

21 what you were able to see as the effect that that had on the Serb

22 population within Croatia?

23 A. It was humiliating for the Serbs, it was an irritation, and it

24 also prompted distrust towards the new political authorities.

25 MR. KAY: I have no further questions.

Page 10987

1 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Thank you, Your Honour.

2 Re-examined by Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff.

3 Q. Witness, you mentioned during the cross-examination Jovo Vezmar,

4 and you said that he went to Serbia in 1995. Did he go to Serbia at an

5 earlier time as well? When did he go to Serbia?

6 A. I didn't say 1995. The first time he went was in 1991. Maybe on

7 the 10th of March or the 7th or 8th of March, and he came back in August,

8 in 1991, and then he left finally again at some point in October 1991.

9 Q. And when he was in Serbia in 1991, did he achieve a post within

10 the MUP Serbia?

11 A. He worked in the Pancevo police station. I don't know exactly

12 what his job was there.

13 Q. In relation to the -- in relation to the relation between the TO

14 and the JNA, you said that you would not know about this, and I would like

15 to clarify to which time this relates. When the Banja Luka Corps arrived

16 in Pakrac in September 1991, was the TO Western Slavonia then subordinated

17 to the JNA in this region?

18 A. As far as I can recall, the TO commanders went to Bijela Stijena,

19 where the forward command post of the Banja Luka Corps was, and I think

20 that they were subordinated to the command of the Banja Luka Corps.

21 Q. Were they paid, the TO staff? Was it also paid by the Banja Luka

22 Corps at that time?

23 A. I think that after October they did receive a salary. I heard

24 that from regular soldiers, and I also heard that the TO command issued

25 salaries to the men.

Page 10988

1 Q. You described the fear that the Serbs felt given these changes

2 within the constitution and other matters in the society in Croatia. Was

3 that fear fuelled by the SDS politicians, by certain SDS politicians, or

4 Serbian politicians or Serbian media? Would you know?

5 A. Yes, by local Serb politicians at the SAO Krajina at that time,

6 tension was raised. So any distrust that appeared amongst the Serbs, they

7 incited it even more at the rallies, they had people with Chetnik insignia

8 who also recalled the ugly past, which was in common with them, and with

9 their shouting, they created fear among the Serbs, as well as the Croats.

10 Q. Did the state-owned Serbian media play a role in instilling this

11 fear or increasing the fear?

12 A. When such statements were published or issued by the local

13 politicians, then I think the broadcasting of such statements would

14 increase the tensions that were already there.

15 Q. You mentioned that you saw already in June 1991 people armed. Do

16 you refer to Serbs, Croats, or both?

17 A. At that time, both sides had weapons: Croats and Serbs both.

18 Some had hunting rifles, some had obtained automatic rifles. There were

19 also pump-action rifles. They were -- it was possible to purchase them.

20 So I know that both the Croats and the Serbs were arming themselves.

21 Q. You described many crimes committed against the Serbs, and you

22 said that as early as mid-June -- mid-1991 you heard about such crimes.

23 Those crimes, did they happen before the war broke out or clashes broke

24 out, or during those fights?

25 A. In mid-1991 this happened, but there were incidents which preceded

Page 10989

1 these conflicts. But I didn't hear anything detailed about such

2 incidents, but I did hear that they did take place in the territory of

3 Eastern Slavonia. Once the war began, there was more talk about such

4 incidents, but now, I don't know if these are authentic stories about

5 these events or not.

6 Q. And in Western Slavonia, those crimes that you described, did they

7 occur after the outbreak of the war?

8 A. Regarding Western Slavonia, I think they took place after the war

9 broke out, that there were incidents, fights, for example, but I know that

10 Serbs in Western Slavonia before the war killed I think three police

11 officers, one at Obrijez and two near Trnakovac, in Okucani. So there

12 were events like this as well.

13 Q. When you say they killed three policemen, do you mean Croatian

14 policemen?

15 A. Yes, they were Croatian policemen. They were on duty. They were

16 on their way to work. Two of them were ambushed and killed, and one of

17 them was killed while he was standing on the road near Obrijez, turning

18 to Obrijez.

19 Q. In relation to the prison camp in Bucje, you mentioned that

20 besides Croats, also some Serbs were detained there. Why were they

21 detained there?

22 A. These Serbs who were detained were, I would say, the opponents of

23 people who were in the TO command. Perhaps people were jealous. They

24 were well off. I had heard from them while they were arrested they were

25 robbed. Their property was confiscated, especially money. They spoke

Page 10990

1 freely, they said what they thought, and they didn't expect to be treated

2 the way they were treated.

3 Q. In relation to the event in Pakrac, and this is the last thing I

4 want to ask you, you mentioned that the JNA came there and the situation

5 calmed down. Were there at the same time also politicians from the

6 federal level coming to Pakrac and negotiating peace?

7 A. The politicians from the federal level I think at that time Mesic

8 came, but I don't remember anyone else coming other than those four deputy

9 ministers for internal affairs. I don't know about any others.

10 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, these are the questions that I

11 have to raise. I wonder if I should now also address briefly the two

12 documents, how we got them and what we intend to do. But the witness

13 would actually not be necessarily be present.

14 JUDGE MAY: The only question is a question of time.

15 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: I can do that very briefly.

16 JUDGE MAY: Very well.

17 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: In relation to the document tab 7, it is not

18 the Prosecution's position that these are official minutes from this

19 meeting. The Prosecution believes that this is a report about this

20 meeting, actually produced by this person mentioned in the last line of

21 the document, and the Prosecution will -- we don't have this person on the

22 witness list, and also not another participant in this meeting, because we

23 thought that this witness would actually confirm that this was the content

24 of the meeting. We would have to add these two persons to our witness

25 list. One a participant and then the person we believe made this draft.

Page 10991

1 And we received this document from the Croatian authorities.

2 And in relation to this other document, C-2768, this is also a

3 document that we received from the Croatian government, and the purpose to

4 put it to the witness was actually only that he confirms certain contents

5 in this document, not to authenticate it.

6 JUDGE MAY: Very well.

7 It remains to exhibit the witness statement, the statement, date

8 of interview, 1st to the 4th of May. Is that the relevant statement,

9 Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff?

10 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes, Your Honour.

11 JUDGE MAY: We'll get a number, Prosecution Exhibit number, for

12 it.

13 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, and it has to be under seal.

14 JUDGE MAY: Very well. Yes, of course.

15 THE REGISTRAR: It will be Prosecutor's Exhibit 332, under seal.

16 JUDGE MAY: Witness C-037, that concludes your evidence. I'm

17 sorry you've been kept so long, but thank you for coming to the Tribunal

18 to give it. You are, of course, free to go.

19 The case will be adjourned until Monday morning, 9.00.

20 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.01 p.m.,

21 to be reconvened on Monday, the 7th day of

22 October 2002, at 9.00 a.m.