Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 11624

1 Wednesday, 16 October 2002

2 [Open session]

3 [The witness entered court]

4 [The accused entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 9.02 a.m.

6 JUDGE MAY: Before we begin, there are one or two housekeeping

7 matters. First of all, the registrar has an announcement about

8 yesterday's exhibits.

9 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. Exhibit --

10 Prosecutor's Exhibit 326 tab 9, which was tendered through Witness C-1220

11 is marked for identification. Thank you.

12 JUDGE MAY: Yes. So that that's understood, it's marked for

13 identification only and will have to be produced by another witness.

14 I'm going to deal with one other matter before we continue with

15 the cross-examination.

16 Ms. Higgins, we have seen correspondence involving your position

17 here and that Mr. Kay will not be here for some weeks because of other

18 matters. We take the view and our decision is this: That you may be in

19 court as an assistant to the amicus for the six weeks involved. You may

20 address the Trial Chamber where appropriate, and of course you should be

21 remunerated appropriately, and we will have that sent to the Registry.

22 MS. HIGGINS: I'm grateful, Your Honour.

23 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Milosevic, it's now for you to continue your

24 cross-examination of this witness. You covered a great deal of ground

25 yesterday. We approve of that because you did it fairly quickly. So we

Page 11625

1 think that you probably could finish within half an hour, but if there is

2 more time that you want, then of course it's open to you to ask for it at

3 the end and we'll consider the position. But we hope you could finish

4 within half an hour with this witness.

5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I hope so too.

6 WITNESS: Witness C-1220

7 [Witness answered through interpreter]

8 Cross-examined by Mr. Milosevic: [Continued].

9 Q. [Interpretation] Yesterday I asked you whether you knew that

10 before these events that you describe at the beginning of your statement,

11 dozens of military facilities and barracks of the JNA in Croatia were

12 blocked. Do you know about these attacks and I'm talking about the period

13 up to the 12th of November, 1991, that tens of members of the JNA had lost

14 their lives.

15 A. I know that barracks had been blocked, but I cannot say anything

16 about casualties.

17 Q. All right. Tell me, is it correct that about a week before the

18 JNA launched its military action in Saborsko, the one that you were

19 talking about, that is to say on the 6th or 7th approximately, November,

20 that is, 1991, members of the ZNG in Saborsko, above Licka Jesenica,

21 that's one kilometre away from Saborsko, they killed in an atrocious

22 manner three Serbs: Susnjar, Stevan; Susnjar, Milan, nicknamed Mijat, and

23 they cut off his fingers; and Petrovic, Bogdan. They cut off his ears and

24 stabbed him with a knife 100 times all over his body while he was still

25 alive. Do you remember the killing of these three men and this event?

Page 11626

1 A. Yes. I remember the event and I know that they were killed in a

2 cruel way.

3 Q. Is it correct that members of this broken up ZNG, after Saborsko

4 was abandoned upon this action that you described on the 15th of November

5 in the village of Dabar, they took prisoner 15 Serbs, and they took them

6 to Josipdol and then killed them?

7 A. Yes. Except that I don't know the actual number, but I think that

8 it involves 15 persons. Yes, that's correct.

9 Q. Did you hear that the youngest of them was 16 years old? His name

10 was Bude Cveticanin, Mile Parenta was killed, Mile Lolic as well and

11 several members of the Klis family. Do you remember that?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Do you know that their bodies were never handed over to the

14 families? The members of the ZNG burned them, and in the spring of 1992,

15 they handed over their urns to the command of the Lika Corps in Korenica.

16 Do you know about that?

17 A. No, I don't know about that.

18 Q. Is it correct that the paramilitary forces incessantly over the

19 days that preceded this information that you -- this operation that you

20 are talking about in terms of deblocking Saborsko, attacked the military

21 barracks and the military facility that is above Licka Jesenica and that

22 is only about one kilometre away from Saborsko?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Is it correct that the army set out to deblock the attack military

25 facility which was one of the greatest depots of fuel for the army in the

Page 11627

1 territory of the Republic of Croatia?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Is it correct that members of the paramilitaries attacked the

4 military facility, the training ground in Slunj that was of military and

5 strategic significance because this is where the command post of the 5th

6 Army was of the JNA?

7 A. I don't know about that.

8 Q. You mentioned, if I understood you correctly, that the air force

9 started this attack on Saborsko. Did you see the air force attack

10 Saborsko, bomb Saborsko, shoot?

11 A. Yes. Yes, missiles.

12 Q. In this statement that you gave to the MUP in Karlovac and which

13 is attached to your statement, you say two or three times Saborsko was

14 flown over by two Mig 21s.

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Then you did not say that they bombed them. You say that they

17 flew over.

18 A. I don't know. I mean, maybe I thought that they flew over a few

19 times, and they also shot missiles. That's what I meant to say.

20 Q. All right. Flew over. Precisely in this statement that you gave

21 to the police, on the 8th of November, 1999, you did not mention anywhere

22 that the aircraft bombed Saborsko; is that right?

23 A. I think -- well, that's what I meant.

24 Q. Oh, that's what you meant. All right. Is it correct that members

25 of the ZNG shot one aeroplane and took the pilot prisoner? His name was

Page 11628

1 Janjic. Do you remember that?

2 A. You mean over there?

3 Q. I mean in that area, yes.

4 A. I don't know about this area. I don't know. I don't know, but

5 maybe perhaps in the area beyond maybe.

6 Q. All right. Let us just deal with a brief matter. You said

7 yesterday that arms were distributed. I wrote down here that you said

8 that on the boxes it said M-4. Is that right?

9 A. Among the other signs, I meant that that's what it said too.

10 Q. Do you know that the army, among its weapons, for several decades

11 before that did not have any more M-48 rifles?

12 A. In this area there were semi-automatic rifles and M-48s.

13 Q. All right. I assume that this comes from some of the TO reserves,

14 because the regular troops did not have those rifles for a long time. Was

15 this from some depot that was in your area? You mentioned a depot,

16 actually, one that you had in your own area?

17 A. Well, possibly. I cannot tell. I mean, I don't know where this

18 came from. Possibly.

19 Q. Where was this depot, this military depot, the one that you said

20 was near your town?

21 A. It was in the centre of town itself. This is where the barracks

22 were and also the depot within the military barracks.

23 Q. All right.

24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May, it was my understanding

25 that you got rid of the map. So I'm not going to ask him anything about

Page 11629

1 the map.

2 JUDGE MAY: He couldn't identify it.

3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right.

4 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

5 Q. You said that you do not know who the commander of the brigade was

6 subordinated to, but you assumed that the command was in Korenica or

7 Plitvice; is that right?

8 A. I don't know that I was asked that question. The command of the

9 division was in Korenica, rather in the village of Mukinje, Plitvice.

10 Q. All right. But you don't know who the commander was?

11 A. Suput. I've just remembered a name. Suput. When he was there,

12 at what time, I don't know, but any rate, I know that his name was

13 mentioned, that is that he was commander of the division.

14 Q. All right. Tell me, you mentioned that the TO afterwards got

15 artillery weapons as well. What kind of artillery weapons did they get

16 from the TO? You only mentioned mortars, but these are infantry weapons.

17 Any company has that. Did they get any kind of artillery, the TO?

18 A. Mortars, 120 millimetres, 82 millimetres, and also anti-aircraft

19 guns, yes. Now, what kind of weapons these are, I don't know.

20 Q. All right. As for training, you explained that there were

21 reservists there or, rather, soldiers who were doing their military

22 service, and of course they were trained to use such weapons.

23 A. Well, yes. There were those who served in all the arms and

24 services.

25 Q. You were asked where these supplies came from and you said that

Page 11630

1 you did not know. You just know that there was a big depot there nearby.

2 Is that right?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. All right. All right. Tell me one more thing: Is it correct

5 that somebody forcibly mobilised you in the Territorial Defence?

6 A. With call-up papers. I was supposed to report at my wartime unit

7 at such-and-such a time.

8 Q. All right. Do you think that somebody forced you to report to the

9 Territorial Defence?

10 A. Well, I had to. Everybody had to. Everybody up to the age of 60.

11 Q. All right. Did you think that that was your duty?

12 A. Well, yes.

13 Q. All right.

14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I have no further questions,

15 Mr. May.

16 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Tapuskovic.

17 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

18 Questioned by Mr. Tapuskovic:

19 Q. [Interpretation] Witness, I'm just interested in a few things in

20 respect of what you were talking about a yesterday. First of all, out of

21 those 32 men who remained jobless that day, as you had put it, when the

22 situation calmed down, did anybody go back to work?

23 A. No.

24 Q. These 32 men, are they in that area now at all?

25 A. No.

Page 11631

1 Q. Where are they?

2 A. There are a few of them in Yugoslavia.

3 Q. Out of the 4.000 people from that area that lived there in your

4 area, how many of them are there now?

5 A. I don't think that even 30 per cent are left.

6 Q. What about all of Ogulin, including the surrounding area, this

7 area in general, this area of yours? How many people have remained?

8 A. I can't really say.

9 Q. Well, approximately.

10 A. At that place, I don't think that there are more than 200 people

11 left.

12 Q. Thank you. One more question. You said when what happened

13 happened on the 12th of November that you all returned to Saborsko; is

14 that right?

15 A. What do you mean?

16 Q. First you returned when what happened on the 12th of November

17 happened.

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Well, you returned to Saborsko; right?

20 A. Well, nobody stayed in Saborsko.

21 Q. Well, that's what I'm trying to ask you. So from Saborsko you all

22 returned to your homes?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. You stayed at home?

25 A. Yes.

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Page 11633

1 Q. What happened happened, and you all went home and then you did not

2 go any more.

3 A. We only held the position, guarded the positions. I don't know

4 how to put this.

5 Q. Were you all at your homes?

6 A. Well, yes. But we went there every day in shifts. It depended on

7 the shift you had. So then we went to these positions.

8 Q. Thank you.

9 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

10 JUDGE MAY: Any re-examination?

11 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes, Your Honour. I have a few matters, and

12 for the first matter I would like to request a private session because I

13 want to clarify a matter related to the job.

14 JUDGE MAY: Yes.

15 [Private session]

16 [redacted]

17 [redacted]

18 [redacted]

19 [redacted]

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Page 11635

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9 [Open session]

10 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're back in open session.

11 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:

12 Q. Witness, during your testimony in the beginning, you spoke about

13 the training facility near Slunj. You spoke about the military posts in

14 Mukinje and others facilities in your region. During the

15 cross-examination, Mr. Milosevic asked you whether the training facility,

16 et cetera, was under blockade, and your answer to this was, "Well, they

17 were in that area." And now I would want to clarify. Was the training

18 facility in Slunj under blockade in November 1991, at the time of the

19 attack on Saborsko?

20 A. Yes. Yes, in Slunj. Korenica, no. In Mukinje, they had a link

21 to Knin. The war in Bosnia had not broken out yet, so you could

22 communicate even with Yugoslavia then. But this training facility, no.

23 Q. What -- who -- does that mean they couldn't leave the training

24 facility any more? Was it blocked in front? Was the blockade in front of

25 it? Can you explain that, what you mean?

Page 11636

1 A. Well, I can, but then I don't know whether you can understand what

2 I'm saying. You probably don't know this well enough, so it's hard for me

3 to explain this situation to you.

4 Plaski is here, Slunj is over there, and up here is Saborsko and

5 over here an Ogulin. And this area around here, that's where the training

6 facility was between Plaski and Slunj. And now it was also under blockade

7 just like the entire town of Plaski. Whereas Mukinje, that's where the

8 command was, I said that, the command of the division was in Mukinje, and

9 that is on the other side of the Plitvice lakes. So this is no longer --

10 I mean, this is behind Saborsko. This is behind Plitvice. It's towards

11 Korenica. Mukinje, Korenica, that's only 4 or 5 kilometres, I mean away

12 from each other.

13 Q. What I would like to know is: Was there a blockade, a roadblock

14 or anything blocking the training facility? Couldn't they move out at

15 all?

16 A. Only on the assumption that they were stronger and that they could

17 get out by force.

18 Q. Mr. Milosevic referred, during the cross-examination to Saborsko

19 as a Croatian stronghold that needed to be eliminated to deblockade the

20 road. And now I would like to know, was it necessary to eliminate

21 Saborsko to deblockade the road?

22 A. That is the only direction leading out of Plaski then, leading out

23 of this encirclement, except for those forest paths that I refer to, one

24 forest path that goes through the forest only. Nobody could ensure safe

25 passage along that path.

Page 11637

1 Q. Was it necessary to totally destroy Saborsko to get through?

2 A. Well, had they been smart, they shouldn't have destroyed Saborsko

3 at least. That's how I see it. But they couldn't reach an agreement.

4 All I'm saying -- I'm saying only what I know. It is rumoured that they

5 had offered to allow the passage through in exchange for not destroying

6 the place. And why that didn't occur, I don't know.

7 Q. Who had offered to allow the passage through?

8 A. This was said by the then-authorities in the municipality. And

9 allegedly the authorities in the place, in the town, offered that.

10 Q. But that is what you call -- it was -- you didn't hear that. You

11 said this was rumoured.

12 A. I said that I didn't participate in the political life there, and

13 I wasn't involved. This was a rumour going around that there was an offer

14 like this and that the people from Saborsko did not accept it.

15 Q. Was it necessary to transport the old people, the old Croat people

16 from Saborsko out of the region to deblockade the road and make it safe?

17 A. When Saborsko was taken, the elderly that remained there, and

18 there were mostly elderly that remained there, they were taken to Licka

19 Jesenica. They spent the night there. And the following day they were

20 taken in buses, in two buses towards Ogulin, the line that I mentioned

21 before, and this was how they were allowed to go to the territory of the

22 Republic of Croatia.

23 Q. Speaking of the presence of policemen during the attack, you said

24 during the examination-in-chief that you saw policemen in Saborsko after

25 the attack. You said they would all come down into the centre.

Page 11638

1 Mr. Milosevic asked you whether the police was there, and you said

2 that you did not see the police because you were on one side and they were

3 on the other side.

4 Your answer, does this refer to the attack as such or what does it

5 refer to, your answer that you were on one side and they on the other?

6 A. During -- during that operation, I wanted to say this to you but I

7 probably wasn't successful. While the attack was going on, we had no

8 connection. There was no connection between my group and the police. We

9 could not establish a connection. We couldn't see each other then. And

10 then later on when everything was over, all of us were leaving in groups.

11 Q. During the testimony in chief, you described that two or three

12 people you saw looting, and you said that they belonged to the Martic

13 police. And you also referred to the killing of Krtan.

14 Mr. Milosevic referred to this killing of Krtan as well, and he

15 read to you part of your previous statement to the MUP Croatia. In the

16 part he read to you, you refer to a certain page, and those who were with

17 him who did it, the killing of Krtan.

18 Those who killed Krtan, were they soldiers, police, or civilians?

19 A. Members of police, Martic's police. They were members of that

20 police.

21 Q. Those Martic policemen who killed Krtan, and you mentioned this

22 Pejic, are these the same people that you saw looting in Saborsko?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. And in the part that was read to you, you said that it was Pejic

25 and those who were with him. Who are the others? Can you name them?

Page 11639

1 A. The name of Lecin, Cvekic and Pejic was mentioned and they are

2 sort of brothers. All I know is that it involves several people, several

3 people.

4 Q. In your statement to the MUP Croatia in 1999, you saw mentioned

5 being involved a certain Snjaka. Snjaka, that's a nickname. Do you

6 recall that?

7 A. Snjaka.

8 Q. And whose nickname is that? Snjaka, who is that?

9 A. Djuro Ogrizovic.

10 Q. Yes.

11 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honours, these are my questions. Thank

12 you.

13 JUDGE MAY: Thank you. Yes, Mr. Milosevic.

14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May, I have to clarify this

15 question, because I understood the witness to say yesterday when I

16 questioned him, I understood that he said that Krtan was killed by two or

17 three men who were looters, robbers. And then I asked him, "Why didn't

18 you report this to police?" And he answered saying that nobody was able

19 to report this to police because they were armed. That's how I understood

20 him yesterday. And now he's saying that they were members of police.

21 JUDGE MAY: We have to bring this to an end. Now, then, who is it

22 who killed Krtan? We're not going on about this. Can you help us,

23 Witness C-1220? Who is it who killed Krtan?

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Somebody misunderstood here me or

25 perhaps I was unable to express things the way I should have. In the

Page 11640

1 positions where we were - I don't want to go into this again - but let me

2 just say this that the first information -- that was the first time we

3 learned that there were dead people there. Bogdan Pesut-Cubra came and he

4 was in tears. And he told us then they killed Pero Krtan and somebody

5 else. And that was the first time we heard of it, and he was crying then.

6 And then he said Peic, Lecin and Cvekic were there in that group who had

7 killed him.

8 JUDGE MAY: And who were those three.

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They were members of Martic's

10 Police.

11 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Thank you very much.

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] And what Mr. Milosevic inquired

13 about is this: What I wanted to say was that those people were the kind

14 of people who had no trouble reaching for arms. They were thugs. They

15 were able to kill anyone. They simply didn't care.

16 JUDGE MAY: No, Mr. Milosevic. We cannot continue this. Now, the

17 witness has given his answer and his clarification.

18 Witness C-1220, thank you very much for come to the court to give

19 your evidence. You are free to go.

20 [The witness withdrew]

21 JUDGE MAY: Yes, let the witness go.

22 MR. NICE: While arrangements are being made for the witness to

23 go, may I raise just a couple of administrative matters, to use the time?

24 Mr. Groome will be taking the next witness and he has a mater to raise as

25 well. None of this will take very long.

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Page 11642

1 First, there is an application with Registry for variation of

2 protective measures in respect of an upcoming witness. I know it takes

3 some time for applications to find their way to Chambers. We have copies

4 available for your consideration, and we'll make those available now.

5 JUDGE MAY: I must say, speaking for myself, I'm concerned about

6 the number of applications in this case, this part of the case.

7 MR. NICE: Protective measures?

8 JUDGE MAY: Yes.

9 MR. NICE: Well, I'm sorry, Your Honour.

10 JUDGE MAY: I'm concerned that there are so many.

11 MR. NICE: Well, Your Honour, I'm sorry that you should be

12 concerned, but I'm afraid that the position is absolutely straightforward

13 and is as follows: If people come here and we discover that they have

14 sought or we have sought on their behalf more protective measures than on

15 careful analysis that they require, we regularly reduce the level of

16 protection we require. On the other hand, where people face threats and

17 are aware at a later stage of proceedings that they are at far greater

18 risk than they previously appreciated, it is absolutely our responsibility

19 to make application on their behalf.

20 JUDGE MAY: It may be but it is also our duty to have a trial that

21 is held in public and open to the public as far as possible.

22 MR. NICE: Your Honour, I have to say that we are doing everything

23 we can to ensure that, and the criticism of the Prosecution that Your

24 Honour is, by implication, making is one I have to reject. There are

25 great risks associated with giving evidence in this court. There are

Page 11643

1 risks that have been aggravated recently by what's been happening in the

2 press, and you will see from this particular document that they are risks

3 that are serious on individuals. We take those matters extremely

4 seriously. We have a very high duty to these witnesses, and we are not

5 bringing applications on, say, where it is unnecessary but as you will

6 discover in respect of the next witness, wherever we can make previously

7 protected witnesses -- not make, whenever we are in a position to call

8 witnesses publicly who would otherwise be subject to some measure of

9 protection, we do so. I would press Your Honours to consider this

10 application in due course, not of course immediately, as one that is

11 worthy.

12 JUDGE MAY: Well, let me -- let me raise something else about this

13 witness I notice. He doesn't appear to be on your list provided on the

14 31st of July. I don't see his name. Described as witness planning until

15 the 1st of January. Unless I'm mistaken about that, I don't find his

16 name. No need to look for it now. I just want to be sure that we're not

17 getting more witnesses in than we originally had in mind.

18 [The witness entered court]

19 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Let the witness sit down while we're dealing

20 with this.

21 MR. NICE: Can I deal with -- can I come back to that later?

22 JUDGE MAY: Yes, if you --

23 MR. NICE: But I press the general point on the Chamber and ask

24 the Chamber really to consider our record of witnesses who come here and

25 have given evidence publicly where previously there was --

Page 11644

1 JUDGE MAY: The only point I make is there seems to be a

2 difference in -- to the parts of the case. Now, there may be a good

3 reason for that, but it's one which is very noticeable.

4 MR. NICE: As to that, it may well be that A, there is a

5 difference in the character of the type of witness generally we're calling

6 in this part of the segment of the case from what happened in the other

7 part of the case. It may well be that because of the different

8 circumstances, the risks are profoundly different.

9 The former Yugoslavia is a dangerous place, and those of us who

10 have to go there and deal with it are well aware of that and take these

11 things extremely seriously.

12 Your Honour, can I turn to something different? Two other points.

13 First, there is another meeting organised tomorrow at 4.00 being run by

14 Mr. Saxon, but I'll be present, in respect of Rule 68. As you know we

15 provide reports on a regular basis and we have meetings on a regular basis

16 where the amici are invited and I'm happy to say that both Ms. Higgins and

17 Mr. Tapuskovic are going to turn up tomorrow. Previously Mr. Wladimiroff

18 has attended.

19 The associates of the accused have been invited. They have not

20 indicated an intention to attend. I repeat publicly through the court

21 that invitation. If they don't turn up and contribute to the Rule 68

22 discussions, then any concerns that the accused may have about Rule 68

23 disclosures are matters that we simply cannot respond to.

24 The presence of his associates at this sort of meeting which we've

25 offered would help us deal with other matters, and I just give one

Page 11645

1 example. There are some indications from the accused of witnesses he now

2 intends to call. His language has to be listened to quite carefully. I

3 might want, where it appears to me that there is a witness to be called by

4 the accused, to take particular precautions before speaking to such

5 witnesses myself if I'd already formed the view that I was going to speak

6 to them. Without contact with the associates, that sort of useful

7 dialogue is impossible.

8 And the third point that I wanted to raise at some stage and I

9 raise now is this, it comes in two parts: We have in mind and have had in

10 mind for some weeks now that it might be helpful for the Chamber to have

11 CD-ROMs containing material sorted by witness in a way that would be

12 electronically searchable for those who prefer to work electronically, and

13 we're in some way advanced in relation to this as an exercise. But in

14 light of recent problems with newspapers, we are putting a temporary hold

15 on it while we review the position, mindful of the fact that a CD-ROM

16 misused would provide a very great deal of information, not all of it

17 information that would necessarily have been given in public, improperly

18 to people who might have an interest in having it. It's simply too easy

19 to abuse. So we're giving thought to it and we'll come back to you on

20 that. But with that in mind, we have one particular matter we'd like just

21 to mention without one minute expecting the Chamber to give a view on it

22 today, but if we can just ask you to think about it.

23 The summaries we provide for assistance of the Court, and we

24 believe them to be extremely useful as a tool, of course not exhibited and

25 we don't ask them to be exhibited, but they don't form part of the record

Page 11646

1 in any sense. Query whether they should just for purposes of having a

2 complete record be in some way part of the record, as it were, supplements

3 to the other 65 ter summaries, something of that sort.

4 If the Court could at some stage give thought to it. It's not a

5 high priority. We can, of course, take appropriate steps to ensure that

6 they would be, if they were to become part of the record, submitted in

7 some recordable form. And I mention it at the same time as dealing with

8 the CD-ROM possibility, because if we are in due course either part way

9 through the trial or at the end of it to provide for assistance CD-ROMs to

10 presumably all parties that contain a lot of the material that's already

11 been given, then one of the items that might go on that as well as the 65

12 ter summary would be the court summary. But not for -- it's just a matter

13 for consideration.

14 JUDGE MAY: We would have to think about that because I'm not sure

15 what form that could take. If they're the exhibits, it seems to me they

16 don't form part of the record. But of course we'll consider it.

17 MR. NICE: Your Honour, thank you very much.

18 JUDGE MAY: The other matter which while we're on these is not to

19 forget the paper summaries that you were making, and I have in mind the

20 document that you were providing about Kosovo to all parties of your

21 summary, as it were, of your case, and I think it needs updating.

22 MR. NICE: Is this the --

23 JUDGE MAY: If you could see to do that.

24 MR. NICE: This is the fill-box document, as it were?

25 JUDGE MAY: I've forgotten what its term was. Yes, I think it's

Page 11647

1 that, but it was your summary at the end which you offered to all, and we

2 certainly got an edition it have, but it needs completion.

3 MR. NICE: It's obviously a regular work in progress and we will

4 be delighted to make it available periodically and I'll draw that to the

5 attend of the people concerned.

6 Mr. Groome has the next witness and a point to make.

7 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Groome.

8 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, just a few minutes ago I received an

9 e-mail message regarding this witness. Witness C-004 is the subject of

10 some protective measures and I received an e-mail from the investigator

11 stating that this witness is now asking that the protective measures be

12 withdrawn and that he testify openly. Before the Court rules on it, I

13 would like to bring the Court aware of the brief history of protective

14 measures regarding this witness.

15 This past Friday, this witness informed me that it was his wish to

16 proceed in open session. Friday afternoon I intended to bring that to the

17 Court's attention on Monday. Friday afternoon the Office of the

18 Prosecutor received information from a government that they had just

19 received information regarding a threat against this witness, and I can

20 provide more details about that in private session should the Chamber

21 wish.

22 We immediately informed this witness of that threat and the

23 application on Monday was then not undertaken.

24 As Judge Hunt has pointed out in other cases before this Tribunal,

25 while the wish of the witness carries some significant weight, it not

Page 11648

1 necessarily dispositive of a determination that the Chamber may make

2 regarding protective measures which are necessary. I would ask that if

3 this witness -- if we can verify that this is the intention of this

4 witness to proceed in open session by simply asking him that question

5 here, it would be the Prosecution's position that that application be

6 withdrawn and that he be permitted to testify in open session.

7 JUDGE MAY: Yes, very well. Perhaps you would like to ascertain

8 the witness's views before we go on.

9 MR. GROOME: I would ask, Witness C-004 -- Witness C-004, I would

10 ask you at this stage, is it your decision to proceed with your testimony

11 in open session and not have any of the protective measures that have been

12 afforded you by the Chamber?

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

14 MR. GROOME: And have you given this careful consideration?

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Very careful.

16 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, the Prosecution is satisfied and would

17 move to withdraw our previous application.

18 JUDGE MAY: Very well. The witness can give evidence in open,

19 session.

20 MR. GROOME: And just -- in a related matter, Your Honour, the

21 witness in his statement mentioned the name of somebody who he expressed

22 some concern that if that person were to be discussed in open court, that

23 person may be jeopardised. I would ask and he has asked me to convey when

24 we mention the name if we can go into private session, he's asking that

25 Mr. Milosevic, if he wants to inquire about this person, to do so in

Page 11649

1 private session.

2 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Well, Mr. Milosevic hears that and we can go

3 into private session to discuss that particular person.

4 Yes, Mr. Milosevic.

5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I have an objection based on

6 principle. The opposite side for the umpteenth time is bringing in

7 witnesses here as secret witnesses and like a magician takes the curtain

8 off and proclaims them to be public.

9 JUDGE MAY: That is not a proper objection, as you know quite

10 well. You know who those witnesses are. The Tribunal -- just a moment.

11 The Tribunal has a power to protect its witnesses whether they're

12 Prosecution or Defence witnesses, and it is a power which it will use.

13 You have heard me express my view about it, that on the whole proceedings

14 should be open, but there are occasions where it is necessary that

15 witnesses should be protected.

16 Now, this witness has clearly thought very carefully about the

17 matter and has come to the conclusion that he will give evidence in open

18 session. There is no question of trickery or anything of that sort on the

19 part of the Prosecution who have behaved perfectly properly in the way

20 they brought this matter before us.

21 Now, let us continue with the witness's evidence.

22 No, Mr. Milosevic. It's not a matter for argument. Now, let us

23 continue with the witness's evidence. Let the witness take the

24 declaration.

25 WITNESS: JOVAN DULOVIC

Page 11650

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Page 11651

1 [Witness answered through interpreter]

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

3 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

4 JUDGE MAY: Thank you. If you would like to take a seat.

5 Yes, Mr. Groome

6 Examined by Mr. Groome:

7 Q. Sir, would you please tell us your name?

8 A. Jovan Dulovic.

9 Q. And what is your profession?

10 A. Journalist.

11 Q. Could you tell us for what publication you worked in the years

12 1991 and 1992?

13 A. Politika Ekspres.

14 Q. And what publication do you currently work for?

15 A. A weekly, Vreme.

16 Q. And can you describe for the Chamber what particular areas of

17 focus your reporting has concerned itself with during your profession?

18 A. I have worked in the -- the department which followed the

19 judiciary, courts, prosecutor's office, police, and crime-related events.

20 Q. What is your nationality?

21 A. Serb.

22 Q. And can you tell us the general area of Serbia in which you were

23 born?

24 A. In Kosovo.

25 Q. Now, I want to draw your attention to the spring of 1991. Did you

Page 11652

1 have occasion to travel around Eastern Slavonia in connection with your

2 duties as a journalist?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. And continuing throughout the summer of 1991, the fall and

5 throughout 1992, did you also have occasion to travel into the Vukovar

6 area as well as other areas of Croatia and Eastern Bosnia?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Can I ask you to briefly describe the process that you follow when

9 you write a story?

10 A. I try to talk as much as possible with people, and I try to make

11 my own observations, and this is what I enter into my notes.

12 Q. And would you then submit whatever story you write to the editors

13 at your publication?

14 A. Yes. Sometimes from the field via the telephone I dictate it to

15 those who make notes in my editor's office, and sometimes if it's not too

16 far, I go back to Belgrade, turn in my story and then return back to the

17 field.

18 Q. Prior to travelling to the Vukovar area, were you required to

19 obtain permission from the Yugoslav army?

20 A. In the very beginning, my journalist's ID was sufficient. And

21 later on, a permit was required to work there issued by the army.

22 Q. And did you receive permission to travel to Vukovar?

23 A. Yes.

24 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, at this time I would tender a binder

25 containing 13 exhibits which I intend to use with this exhibit. It

Page 11653

1 contains documents, photographs, and transcripts of video recordings.

2 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Groome, let me raise one particular matter in

3 relation to this practice which we in fact find a useful one, speaking for

4 the Trial Chamber, to have these documents tendered to us in binder form

5 and before the witness gives evidence. But the problem which arises is

6 this, and it arose with the last witness: That it may be that the

7 documents are eventually not exhibited, which requires then the

8 housekeeping matter of returning documents, particularly with an accused

9 who isn't represented.

10 So what we need to do is this: That we will -- the practice, as I

11 say, we find a very useful one and therefore we will continue with, but

12 what we must be careful to do is at the end of a witness's evidence, we

13 ensure that all the documents which are in a binder or in a clip have in

14 fact been exhibited, and in that way we will keep the housekeeping

15 straight.

16 MR. GROOME: Yes, Your Honour.

17 Q. Mr. Dulovic, I'd ask you to take a look at the document contained

18 in tab 1. I would ask you, is that the permission form that you received

19 authorising you to travel to Vukovar?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And can you tell us who issued that authorisation?

22 A. The Federal Secretariat for National Defence did, or, rather, the

23 army.

24 Q. Did there come a time when you applied for and received

25 authorisation to travel into Bosnia, more specifically the area of

Page 11654

1 Visegrad in connection with your duties as a journalist?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. I would ask that the witness be shown the document in tab 2 of the

4 binder.

5 JUDGE MAY: Before we go any further, we ought to give the binder

6 a number.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, it will be marked Prosecutor's

8 Exhibit 342.

9 MR. GROOME:

10 Q. Mr. Dulovic, looking at Prosecution Exhibit 342, tab 2, is that

11 the permission or authorisation you received to travel into Visegrad?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Did you provide the originals of both of those documents to the

14 officer of the -- the Office of the Prosecutor here at the Tribunal?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. And during the course of your work, were you required to apply for

17 authorisations to travel to other areas of Bosnia as well?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Now, before I ask you questions regarding the events that you

20 personally witnessed, I want to ask you to give a brief description of the

21 people who you will be testifying about, and I will begin with those

22 people who were members of the Yugoslav army.

23 Do you know or did you know a person by the name of Colonel Enes

24 Taso?

25 A. Yes.

Page 11655

1 Q. Can you describe for us who he is?

2 A. He was the commander of the Pancevo Mechanised Unit.

3 Q. Can you -- do you know a Major Veselin Sljivancanin?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. And who is he?

6 A. He was the commander of the Guards Brigade that was in Vukovar.

7 Q. Do you know a person by the name of Captain Aleksandar Bojkovski?

8 A. Bojkovski, captain of the Yugoslav army, and he was also in

9 Vukovar.

10 Q. I ask you do you know a person by the name of Captain Miroslav

11 Radic?

12 A. Yes.

13 MR. GROOME: I now ask that the witness be shown a photograph that

14 is marked as Prosecution Exhibit 342, tab 3. Then I would ask that that

15 be placed on the overhead.

16 Q. Mr. Dulovic, do you recognise the person depicted in Prosecution

17 Exhibit 342, tab 3?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. And who do you recognise that to be?

20 A. That is Captain Miroslav Radic.

21 Q. Do you know a person by the name of Spasoje Petkovic, also known

22 as Stuka?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. And can you describe for us who that person?

25 A. He was a regular soldier in the Yugoslav army.

Page 11656

1 Q. I now want to ask you about members of the Territorial Defence.

2 Do you know a person by the name of Stanko Vujanovic?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Can you describe for us who he is?

5 A. He was the commander of the 1st Detachment of the Territorial

6 Defence in Vukovar.

7 Q. I'd ask you to look to your left on the overhead projector and

8 look at what is Prosecution Exhibit 342, tab 4. Do you recognise the man

9 that is depicted in that picture?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And who do you recognise him to be?

12 A. That is Stanko Vujanovic.

13 Q. Do you know a person by the name of Ivica Andric?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Can you describe for us who he was?

16 A. A volunteer who was also in Vukovar.

17 Q. Did he work with Stanko Vujanovic?

18 A. Yes, he was there with Stanko.

19 Q. I want to now ask you about a person by the name of Radovan

20 Stojicevic, also known as Badza. Do you know him?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And was he associated with one of the Territorial Defence units in

23 Croatia?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Which one?

Page 11657

1 A. He was with the unit that was in Erdut, and he was in the

2 leadership of the Republican MUP.

3 Q. When you say "Republican MUP," which republic are you referring

4 to?

5 A. I mean the Republic of Serbia.

6 Q. The last person associated with Territorial Defence units I want

7 to ask you about is a person by the name of Marko Pavlovic. Do you know

8 that person?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Can you give us a description or tell us how you know him?

11 A. Well, I know him as the commander of the Territorial Defence in --

12 in Visegrad or -- just a moment, please. No, in Zvornik.

13 Q. And is that Zvornik in Bosnia?

14 A. Yes, Zvornik is in Bosnia.

15 Q. Sometime after you first knew him, did you come to learn that he

16 had a different name?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And what did you learn his other name to be?

19 A. Quite a long time afterwards I learnt this and talked to him, and

20 I knew him as Branko Popovic. It was, in fact, Branko Popovic. That's

21 who it was.

22 Q. And did you also come to learn whether or not he had an

23 association with the person by the name of Mihalj Kertes?

24 A. Yes. That he -- how shall I put it? He was Mihalj Kertes's man.

25 Q. I want to ask you now about members of the Serbian Ministry of

Page 11658

1 Internal Affairs. Do you know a person or did you know a person by the

2 name of Momir Gavrilovic?

3 A. I saw him in Vukovar or, rather, in Erdut.

4 Q. At the time that you saw him in Erdut, did you hear other officers

5 and other soldiers refer to him by some other name other than Momir

6 Gavrilovic?

7 A. Yes. They would address him as Colonel Peric.

8 MR. GROOME: I ask that the Prosecution Exhibit 342, tab 5, be

9 placed on the overhead projector.

10 Q. And, Mr. Dulovic, I'd ask you to take a look at that exhibit. Do

11 you recognise the person who is in that photograph?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. And who is that?

14 A. That's right. That is Momir Gavrilovic.

15 Q. Does that fairly represent how he appeared in Erdut when you saw

16 him when he was referred to as Colonel Peric?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Is Momir Gavrilovic alive today?

19 A. No.

20 Q. Do you know when he died?

21 A. He was killed on the 3rd of August, 2001.

22 Q. And do you know how he was killed?

23 A. That killing remained unsolved, but he was killed by a firearm.

24 Q. After his death, did the police, did the Republic of Serbian MUP

25 publish the details about his true identity and his curriculum, the

Page 11659

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Page 11660

1 positions he held?

2 A. Yes, in its entirety. But there was just one period missing where

3 he was and what he did from 1991 until, let's say, 1995 or 1993. I don't

4 remember exactly.

5 Q. Of the positions that were published prior to 1991 and after 1995,

6 were they all positions within the Serbian Ministry of Interior?

7 A. Yes. Positions in the state security of the Republic of Serbia.

8 Q. I'd ask that you now look at Prosecution Exhibit 342, tab 6, and

9 ask you do you recognise that photograph.

10 A. Yes. That is Momir Gavrilovic.

11 Q. Is that the picture of Mr. Gavrilovic that was published at the

12 time of his murder in August of 2001?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. I want to ask you about some members of paramilitary groups. Do

15 you know a person by the name of Zeljko Raznjatovic, also known as Arkan?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. And have you ever seen him?

18 A. Yes. I saw him in Borovo Selo.

19 Q. And when was it that you saw him in Borovo Selo?

20 A. 1991. In the summer of 1991.

21 Q. And is Borovo Selo in the vicinity of Vukovar?

22 A. Yes. It's a suburb of Vukovar, in fact.

23 Q. Did men associated with Arkan, did they have any unique piece of

24 uniform that they wore?

25 A. Yes, they did have a unique uniform that they wore.

Page 11661

1 Q. And what was -- what was unique about that uniform?

2 A. They were unique because his men wore black woolen Balaclavas, and

3 when you place them over your face, they had slits for the eyes.

4 Q. Did there come a time during the course of your duties as a

5 journalist that you had -- you were shown a document purporting to be a

6 loan from the Serbian state security to Zeljko Raznjatovic?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Can you describe for us the circumstances under which you were

9 shown this document?

10 A. This happened at the trial of Zeljko Raznjatovic, Arkan, who was

11 accused of grievous bodily harm, that is to say breaking a civilian's arm.

12 Q. And who showed you that document?

13 A. His lawyers who asked that the trial be held in closed session.

14 Q. Do you recall the amount of money that was loaned to Arkan by the

15 Serbian MUP?

16 A. It wasn't the Serbian MUP, it was the Federal MUP and it was a

17 credit, a loan. The Federal SUP gave him a loan, but I don't remember the

18 sum of money involved. I did see the figure. I think it was around 10

19 million dinars at that time, his repayment.

20 Q. For those of us who are not familiar with the dinar, could you

21 approximate what that would be in Deutschmarks?

22 A. No.

23 Q. Do you recall the approximate date of this loan?

24 A. No.

25 Q. Do you know a person by the name of Major Peja?

Page 11662

1 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Groome, I'd like the witness to say a little

2 more about the loan. What was it on the document that specifically

3 indicated that it was a loan? Was there a repayment programme?

4 MR. GROOME:

5 Q. Mr. Dulovic, you've heard Judge Robinson's question. Did you see

6 anything on the document that indicated to you a repayment schedule?

7 A. From the document that I glanced at briefly, all that could be

8 seen was that a loan was granted by the Federal SUP, that it had granted a

9 loan to Arkan, and it mentioned the figure to be repaid every month from

10 his salary or whatever. I saw the stamp and seal of the Federal SUP and

11 the heading where it said "The Federal SUP." And it was a document that

12 proves that the loan was granted him by the Federal SUP.

13 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreters note: The interpreter misspoke.

14 It was 9 million.

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I just saw this for one brief

16 moment. His lawyers asked that the trial be closed to the public.

17 However, the Trial Chamber did not accept that and the trial went public.

18 At the time, what I wanted to see was whether it was true, whether

19 the Federal SUP did in fact give him the loan. And the Federal SUP gives

20 loans only to its own members.

21 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Groome, you might let us know later what 9

22 million dinars would be in Deutschmarks and also in perhaps dollars and

23 euros.

24 MR. GROOME: Yes, Your Honour.

25 Q. You mentioned the word "salary" in the last answer you gave. Did

Page 11663

1 it indicate Arkan's place of employment on this document?

2 A. No, I didn't see that.

3 Q. Was it on the basis of the existence of this document that the

4 attorney for Arkan was seeking to have the proceedings in closed session?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. I want to now ask you about Major Peja. Do you know who he is?

7 A. Yes. It was one of -- he was one of the officers of Zeljko

8 Raznjatovic "Arkan."

9 Q. And did you see him present in the Vukovar area in the summer and

10 fall of 1991?

11 A. No.

12 Q. Was there another member of Arkan's group by the name of Peja?

13 A. Yes. I heard about that.

14 Q. And did he have another name that he was known by to distinguish

15 him from Major Peja?

16 A. Yes. They called him Peja Ciganin or Peja the Gypsy in

17 translation.

18 Q. Do you know a person by the name of Vojislav Seselj?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Would you briefly describe for us who he is?

21 A. He is the president of the Radical Party.

22 MR. GROOME: I'd ask that the witness be shown Prosecution Exhibit

23 342, tab 7, and that it be placed on the overhead projector.

24 Q. Mr. Dulovic, I'd ask you do you recognise the who is depicted in

25 that photograph, the person in the centre of the photograph?

Page 11664

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. And who is that?

3 A. That is Dr. Vojislav Seselj.

4 Q. Do you know a person by the name of Miroslav, and the nickname, or

5 he's also known as Cele?

6 A. Yes. I met him in Zvornik.

7 Q. And who do you know him to be?

8 A. He was the commander of a group of Seselj's men as they were

9 called. An armed unit, of course.

10 Q. Do you know a person who was known as Kameni?

11 A. Yes, I do know him. I know him from Vukovar.

12 Q. And was he associated with any particular group?

13 A. Yes. Also associated with Seselj's men in Vukovar.

14 Q. And do you know a person by the name of Mica Teodosijevic?

15 A. Yes, I think I did see him.

16 Q. And is he or was he associated with a particular group?

17 A. Mica Teodosijevic was also one of Seselj's men, one of the

18 vojvodas or dukes.

19 Q. And did he have another name that you heard him referred to or

20 referred as?

21 A. Yes. That was his nickname, Mica Srafciger. Srafciger was his

22 nickname.

23 MR. GROOME: Could I ask the translators to translate that word

24 in English.

25 THE INTERPRETER: Screwdriver.

Page 11665

1 MR. GROOME:

2 Q. I'd like to show you Prosecution Exhibit 342, tab 10 -- I'm sorry,

3 tab 9, and I would note for the Chamber, tab 9 is a marked-up version of

4 tab 8 which is a blank copy of the same photograph should it be necessary

5 to show it to other witnesses.

6 Do you recognise some of the people in this photograph?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. There is handwriting on this photograph. Is that your

9 handwriting?

10 A. Yes, that's my handwriting.

11 Q. With the pointer, I would ask you to indicate the person you know

12 as Cele.

13 A. [Indicates]

14 Q. The person you know as Mr. Seselj.

15 A. [Indicates]

16 Q. And the person you know as "the Screwdriver."

17 A. [Indicates]

18 Q. Thank you. Are you familiar with a paramilitary organisation by

19 the name of the Yellow Wasps?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Do you know the name of the leader of the Yellow Wasps?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Can you tell us his name?

24 A. Vojin Vuckovic.

25 Q. And from what areas of the former Yugoslavia do you know him from?

Page 11666

1 A. I know Cele from Zvornik or, rather, I met him in Bosnia.

2 Q. The transcript has indicated you said Cele. I'm asking you now

3 about Vojin Vuckovic. Can you tell us where you know him from?

4 A. Yes. Vojin Vuckovic is a man I met, and he drew my attention

5 during a trial held in Belgrade, a trial of the brothers Vuckovic.

6 Q. And what was Vojin Vuckovic on trial for?

7 A. The Vuckovic brothers, Vojin and Dusan were their names, Arkan [As

8 interpreted] Repic, that was his brother, they were on trial, and it was

9 the first trial. They were on trial for war crimes or, rather, Repic

10 Dusan was charged of war crimes. Vojin was accused of some minor criminal

11 offences.

12 Q. During the course of that trial did Vojin Vuckovic testify about

13 any relationship he had with an official body of the former Yugoslavia?

14 A. I didn't quite get your question.

15 Q. During the course of that trial, did he testify regarding any

16 relationship or -- that he may have had with an organisation or

17 institution of the former Yugoslavia?

18 A. Yes. Vojin Vuckovic was the commander of the Yellow Wasps in

19 Zvornik.

20 Q. Did he mention any relationship or testify about any relationship

21 with an official organ of the government?

22 A. Yes. He was an instructor for the martial arts in the Federal SUP

23 as he himself told me.

24 JUDGE MAY: Yes. We're just slightly past the time for a break.

25 MR. GROOME: Sorry, Your Honour.

Page 11667

1 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Dulovic, we're going to adjourn now for 20

2 minutes. Could you remember in this and any other adjournment there may

3 be about this case not to speak to anybody about your evidence until it's

4 over, and that also includes the members of the Prosecution team. We'll

5 adjourn now for 20 minutes.

6 --- Recess taken at 10.32 a.m.

7 --- On resuming at 10.57 a.m.

8 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Groome.

9 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, before I continue, just in response to

10 Judge Robinson's inquiry about the currency, all we've been able to find

11 over the break is current valuations. I will attempt to get an earlier

12 valuation so that the Chamber has some range. But I also want to note

13 that the interpreters have corrected that the witness did not say 10

14 million but instead said 9 million. So the conversion of 9 million

15 Yugoslav dinars equals 146.570 US dollars or 149.322 euros, or 292.048

16 German marks.

17 Q. Mr. Dulovic, before I continue, I would like to just ask you a

18 couple of questions about your testimony before the break. The trial of

19 Arkan, can you tell us approximately when that trial was held?

20 A. In the 1980s.

21 Q. And the trial of the Vuckovic brothers that you referred to, when

22 was that held?

23 A. In 1996.

24 Q. Now, are you familiar with a paramilitary group known as Dusan

25 Silni?

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Page 11669

1 A. I heard about it, but I don't know of any other details.

2 Q. Did you ever personally see members of that group in your work in

3 either Vukovar or Bosnia?

4 A. Perhaps I did see them, but I did not have an opportunity of

5 identifying them. I don't think so really. I don't know.

6 Q. Now, I wanted to ask you about two individuals and ask you to tell

7 us something about them. A woman by the name of Dragica.

8 A. I first saw Dragica in Vukovar within a Territorial Defence unit,

9 one that was led by Stanko Vujanovic.

10 Q. And can you give us her approximate age at that time and where she

11 was from?

12 A. She said to me that she was 30 something, 32 or 33, and she was

13 from Novi Sad.

14 Q. And that's Novi Sad in Serbia?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Was she also known by another name?

17 A. No.

18 Q. Now, during the course of your work in the Vukovar area in the

19 summer and fall of 1991, did you come to see a man whose trial you covered

20 in Belgrade?

21 A. I heard about that, but I did not see him.

22 Q. Did you not see him in Vukovar or did you not cover the trial?

23 A. Oh, no, I did cover his trial.

24 Q. And did you see him sometime later in the Vukovar area?

25 A. No. No, not Vukovar. Later. Later when his trial took place.

Page 11670

1 Q. Did you ever see him outside after courtroom and in possession of

2 weapons?

3 A. No.

4 Q. Are you familiar with the concept of Vojna Linija?

5 A. I heard about that concept, but I did not have any reliable

6 information about the details involved.

7 Q. The information that you did have before you describe it to us,

8 would you tell us what the basis of the information you do possess

9 regarding it? What is the basis of your knowledge?

10 A. I learned about it from people who I assume knew about that. So I

11 heard about that from conversations with certain individuals.

12 Q. And did you assume that these people knew about it by virtue of

13 the position that they held?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Can you describe the position or positions that were held by the

16 people who informed you of this Vojna Linija?

17 A. In the top echelons of the Yugoslav army.

18 Q. Can you describe for us briefly what is the concept of Vojna

19 Linija?

20 A. As far as I know, in the police there was a certain number of

21 people who would complete the military academy, the land forces academy,

22 and then they would return to the police with the knowledge that they

23 acquired there. That's what I had been told.

24 Q. Was the concept or this thing we're calling the Vojna Linija, do

25 you know whether it was established prior to the conflict, during the

Page 11671

1 conflict, or afterwards?

2 A. Even before the conflict.

3 Q. During the course of your work, have you ever been able to

4 interview anybody you believed to be a member of this group?

5 A. This was not an official, on-the-record interview. It was

6 background discussion with these people.

7 Q. Did any of the people you had this discussion with identify

8 themselves or admit to you that they were a member of the Vojna Linija?

9 A. No. This was a fluid organisation, so to speak, to the best of my

10 knowledge, and it was never made public or was any information about it

11 published.

12 Q. I want to now draw your attention to some events that you

13 personally witnessed, and I'd like to begin by drawing your attention to

14 the summer and fall of 1991, and I would ask you, were you travelling in

15 Croatia, in particular in the vicinity of Vukovar, in the course of your

16 duties as a journalist?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And did there come a time during that period of time when you saw

19 the build-up of troops in Croatia?

20 A. Yes, that's correct, around Vukovar. On both sides, for that

21 matter. Both sides of Vukovar, that is. The side where Borovo Selo is

22 and the side where Negoslavci is.

23 Q. Now, when you said build-up by both sides, do you mean both sides

24 of Vukovar geographically or both sides to the conflict?

25 A. Geographically. I mean on both sides of Vukovar.

Page 11672

1 Q. Can you tell us generally the troops or forces that you were able

2 to identify, can you tell us generally where were they from? What was

3 their identity?

4 A. When speaking to Enes Taso, he told me all the units that were

5 there, involved in the Vukovar operation.

6 Q. And by Enes Taso, you're referring to Colonel Enes Taso, commander

7 of the Yugoslav army?

8 A. Yes. Commander of the tank unit, the motorised unit from Pancevo.

9 Q. Can you tell us what units Colonel Taso told you from the Yugoslav

10 army were in the area of Vukovar?

11 A. The 3rd Guards Motorised Brigade, the Novi Sad Corps, a tank unit

12 under the command of Lieutenant Borisa Doknic from Pozarevac, and Enes

13 Taso from Pancevo.

14 Q. Of the Yugoslav forces that you were able to see at this time,

15 were you able to tell whether the ethnic make-up of the army still

16 reflected the ethnic make-up of Yugoslavia?

17 A. Yes. Yes.

18 Q. Based upon your observations of the troops of the Yugoslav army

19 troops present, did you form an opinion whether or not the command

20 structure of those units still seemed to be functioning normally?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Did you see any reservists or reserve members of the Yugoslav

23 army?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And do you have -- did you form an opinion regarding the

Page 11673

1 functioning of their command structure? Did it appear to be functioning

2 normally?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Did you also see members of the Territorial Defence as part of

5 this build-up of forces in that area?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Were you able to ascertain the composition of the members of the

8 Territorial Defence? Were they only local people or were there people

9 from outside the Vukovar area?

10 A. Yes. It was very hard to distinguish them because for the most

11 part they all wore civilian clothes. They were crossing the Danube en

12 masse and coming to Vukovar and the villages around it. So it was

13 possible only in the course of a conversation to find out who was a

14 volunteer and who was a member of the Territorial Defence.

15 Q. And did you form an opinion regarding whether the command

16 structure of the Territorial Defence was functioning normally at that

17 point in time?

18 A. These commanders of the Territorial Defence in some places, for

19 example, in Borovo, the 1st Company, Stanko Vujanovic was a taxi driver.

20 But in the surrounding villages, the commanders were people who were

21 unknown to the locals.

22 Q. Were you able to ascertain where these unknown commanders, where

23 they had come from?

24 A. I asked the locals who these people were. They would say

25 discreetly that they were from Belgrade. They think that everybody comes

Page 11674

1 from Belgrade. They said that they were policemen or, rather, people from

2 the state security.

3 Q. Can you approximate for us how many people you became aware were

4 from the state security in Belgrade? How many of such people were

5 involved with the Territorial Defence?

6 A. They led the Territorial Defence. They led these ignorant and

7 untrained people. But how many of them there were in the villages around

8 Vukovar, Trpinje, Sarvas. In Sarvas it was Major Cvetkovic, commander of

9 the Territorial Defence there. In Bobota there was a policeman, and also

10 in these other villages.

11 Q. I want to now draw your attention to July or August of 1991 and

12 ask you whether or not you were in the vicinity of a prison and whether or

13 not you had a conversation with a guard at that prison.

14 A. Yes, in Borovo Selo.

15 Q. And did you discuss or ask the guard how many prisoners he had in

16 his prison?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And what did he tell you?

19 A. He said about a hundred.

20 Q. Were you able to ascertain the ethnicity of these prisoners?

21 A. I could not see them. This was like a garage, a big room which

22 had a big gate made of metal. So I could not really look in side and see

23 how many there were.

24 Q. Did there come a time when this guard banged on the door of the

25 prison?

Page 11675

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. And what happened?

3 A. When he banged on the door once, then they started singing in a

4 shaky voice. You could see that they were singing because they had to.

5 This song called "Who says? Who is telling this lie that Serbia is

6 small?" And then he banged on the door twice. Then they started singing

7 the song dedicated to Vojvoda Sindzelic. This was an awful situation.

8 Q. Did there come a time between ten and 15 days later that you once

9 again returned to this prison?

10 A. Yes. I passed by that prison, and I asked how many of them were

11 there, and he said one or two only. And when I asked where the rest were,

12 he gestured. This gesture showed unequivocally that they had been killed.

13 Q. Can you show us the gesture that the guard made to you?

14 A. He stood like this, and he made this move as if an execution were

15 taking place. He held an automatic rifle, a Kalashnikov.

16 Q. And for the record, you hold both your hands in front of you and

17 moved them from side to side.

18 A. With a rifle. With a rifle in his hands.

19 Q. When you talk about or tell us about this build-up of forces, did

20 there come a time when you saw people there that you were able to identify

21 as members of specific paramilitary groups?

22 A. No. Only Arkan's men.

23 Q. Did you ever see a person or the person you've described to us as

24 Kameni? Did you ever see him in the area of Vukovar?

25 A. Yes, in the Nova Street. That's where his group was. They were

Page 11676

1 Seselj's men. It was right by Stanko Vujanovic's house almost.

2 Q. Did you ever have a conversation with Yugoslav army Colonel Taso

3 regarding whether or not he had engaged in operations with Arkan?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. And what did he tell you?

6 A. He said to me that on one occasion, a tank was loaned so that

7 Arkan could have his picture taken on it and that for a while Arkan had it

8 during operations.

9 Q. Over than this loaning of a tank, did he ever talk about actually

10 cooperating with Arkan in an actual operation?

11 A. I had the impression that he could not stand Arkan but that

12 nevertheless he was a good fighter because they did take part in an

13 operation. Arkan's men probably took part in a battle within the infantry

14 when the tanks were moving on.

15 Q. I'd ask you to characterise if you're able, for the Chamber, the

16 conduct of these paramilitary members in and around the area of Vukovar.

17 A. These people were more or less drunk. It was obvious that one of

18 their tasks was to loot. They did not respect commands sometimes, and it

19 seemed as if they were waging a so-called war without a definite command.

20 For the most part, they were volunteers and some unidentified groups. All

21 of them were armed. This was a stratum of people who I believe set out to

22 wage this so-called war simply in order to make material gains, to loot

23 namely. They were very primitive, disorderly, and coarse.

24 Q. During your time in the Vukovar area, did you feel safe even as a

25 Serb going out at night into the streets?

Page 11677

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Page 11678

1 A. It was not advisable. As soon as dark started falling it was

2 risky because shooting would start. It was pointless gunfire. They were

3 arrogantly shooting around the streets as they were drunk, so it was very

4 risky to go outside. Not that somebody would kill you intentionally but

5 simply because of that gunfire that had no other purpose than merrymaking

6 so to speak. Those who were doing the shooting, that is. So that

7 pertains to Nova Street. That's where I experienced it the most in

8 Vukovar.

9 Q. During the summer of 1991, did the area of Borovo Selo become a

10 strategically important location or area for Serbs?

11 A. Yes. That could be seen through the piling up of arms.

12 Q. And why was it -- do you know why it was strategically important?

13 A. Because as I've already said, that's a suburb of Vukovar. The

14 Danube was very close by, and it was easy to transport everything that was

15 needed for Vukovar from Serbia. And that a bit further from Vukovar, I

16 think there was a line there and a road leading to Osijek. So there was a

17 road between Vukovar and Osijek which was held by Croats.

18 Q. Now, during your time in Borovo Selo, would you attend regular

19 press conferences?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And who would give those conferences?

22 A. Press conferences were held in the building of Radio Vukovar --

23 I'm sorry, Radio Borovo Selo, next to which there were offices of Radovan

24 Stojicevic "Badza" from where the information came and was later announced

25 at a press conference in the offices of Radio Borovo Selo.

Page 11679

1 Q. Is this the same Radovan Stojicevic who you described earlier as

2 having a high-level position in the Serbian MUP?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Based upon your experience as a journalist, did you and your

5 observations of what was happening around Borovo Selo, did you believe

6 these briefings to be true and accurate accounts of what was happening?

7 A. No.

8 Q. What did you believe them to be?

9 A. What I saw, I saw that what was going on was significantly

10 different from what was being announced.

11 Q. I want to now move on to the period of time between September and

12 November of 1991. During that period of time, did a particular house

13 emerge as the command centre of the military activity in the Vukovar area?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Can you tell us the address of that house?

16 A. It was Nova Street, number 81. The house belonging to Vujanovic,

17 Stanko Vujanovic.

18 Q. During this period of time, are you able to characterise the

19 nature of the military activity of the people inside the city of Vukovar,

20 the predominantly Croat population? Was the military activity defensive

21 or offensive in nature, if you know?

22 A. What I saw and observed was of a defensive nature, entirely so

23 because they were surrounded from all sides in Vukovar. And once the

24 units started attacking, they defended themselves. Once the army and

25 volunteers started attacking all together in a combined effort, then the

Page 11680

1 fire would be opened from Vukovar itself, from the centre of town.

2 Q. Did there come a time during this period that you travelled to a

3 village by the name of Negoslavci?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. And during the course of travelling there, did you pass through a

6 series of villages that included both Serb villages and predominantly

7 Croat villages?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. And can you describe for us what, if any, differences you observed

10 between the state of the Serb villages as opposed to the state of the

11 Croat villages.

12 A. Well, that road leads from Belgrade to Vukovar but from the

13 direction of Negoslavci where there was Tovarnik village, and one would

14 frequently come across Croat villages, then Serb villages, then Croat

15 villages, and so on. There was a huge difference.

16 Q. And what would that difference be?

17 A. The huge difference was in the level of destruction. Croat

18 villages were destroyed to a much greater level than Serb villages, and

19 that can be seen today as well.

20 Q. I want to now ask you some specific questions about the house at

21 Ulica Nova 81, and my first question to you is: Can you tell us

22 approximately how often you were in that house if you were in that house

23 at all?

24 A. Yes. I went to that house very often.

25 Q. Can you be a bit more specific and tell us whether -- or

Page 11681

1 approximately how many times a week that you would visit that house?

2 A. Well, during some weeks I would go there every day with maybe some

3 brief interruptions if I went to telephone my story in and then I would

4 come back.

5 Q. I will be asking you a series of specific questions about specific

6 events in that house, but I would ask you at this stage to describe for

7 the Chamber the general types of activity that occurred in that house.

8 A. In that house, there was a command centre for that area, for the

9 units that were in that area. And there was Captain Radic in that house

10 very often. I don't know if they slept there. Sljivancanin came

11 occasionally, then Sasa Bojkovski, captain, as well, and many other

12 officers. There in the evening, late in the afternoon, there were

13 meetings held during which they planned what was to be done the following

14 day.

15 Stanko Vujanovic, as a commander of the 1st Detachment, attended

16 meetings as well together with some other officers the artillery units.

17 Q. Now, I want to draw your attention to the 12th of November, 1991,

18 and ask you whether on that day you met Major Veselin Sljivancanin.

19 A. Yes. I saw him then for the first time in Negoslavci.

20 Q. And can you describe the circumstances under which you saw him?

21 A. On that day, soldiers liberated and dragged from a basement some

22 150 citizens of Vukovar who had been in that fortified secure basement

23 since August. They went there to bombing, to shelling, because shells

24 were landing everywhere.

25 Soldiers of the Guards Brigade of Veselin Sljivancanin took them

Page 11682

1 out and brought them to the premises of Velepromet, which at the time was

2 a company which naturally did not operate. It had fairly large premises

3 and a large yard with concrete pavement.

4 Q. Did there come a time later that day that you once again saw Major

5 Sljivancanin in the house at 81 Ulica Nova?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. As best as you're able to recall, who else was present the second

8 time that you saw him?

9 A. There was the entire group that I described previously, Captain

10 Radovic, Bojkovski, Sasa Bojkovski.

11 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction Radic, not Radovic.

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] And some other people as well.

13 Stanko Vujanovic, naturally.

14 MR. GROOME:

15 Q. The people that you have mentioned so far were members of the

16 Territorial Defence or the Yugoslav army. Were there any members of the

17 some of the volunteers or paramilitaries that you've referred to? Were

18 any of these people present?

19 A. That meeting was not attended by paramilitaries.

20 Q. Did there come a time when somebody who was in the house took you

21 from the house and took you to view the bodies of six members of the

22 Croatian National Guard?

23 A. Yes. That was Captain Sasa Bojkovski. That was in Pionirska

24 Street in Vukovar, the building of kindergarten where in a room I saw six

25 male bodies without weapons whose skulls were open in a strange way, as

Page 11683

1 though they were cracked due to an explosion. And I got an impression

2 that they had been lying there for some two or three days perhaps.

3 Q. Were all of -- were each of the six men, was each of their heads

4 open in the same strange way?

5 A. Yes, which remained unclear to me.

6 Q. You've mentioned that you did not see weapons. Were any of these

7 six men wearing a military uniform?

8 A. One had a sweater, a turtleneck sweater, jeans. One had a winter

9 military jacket but not the trousers and uniform, just a military jacket,

10 a winter one. And the rest were in civilian clothes.

11 Q. After going to this place that you've described as a kindergarten,

12 did you return to the house at Ulica Nova 81?

13 A. Yes. Yes.

14 Q. Are you able to approximate for us the time that you arrived back

15 at that house?

16 A. As far as I can remember, in the afternoon about 4.00 p.m.

17 Q. Did there come a time when the person you've described as Vojislav

18 Seselj arrived at that house?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Are you able to --

21 A. Dr. Seselj came.

22 Q. Are you able to approximate the time that he arrived at the house?

23 A. At about 6.00 in the afternoon. At about 6.30, perhaps.

24 Q. Did he come alone or were there others with him?

25 A. He came with his entourage. They were armed.

Page 11684

1 Q. Approximately how many people were in his entourage?

2 A. I was inside at the time, and one of them came in with him inside.

3 And as to how many of them were in the street, I wasn't able to observe

4 that. And in the neighbouring building, there were his people, Kameni

5 with his unit, Seselj's unit.

6 Q. And at that time, how many men were in the company of Kameni?

7 A. I didn't see them. I was inside. I don't know how many people

8 there were there, but I suppose, and I suppose this because I never saw

9 all of his people together, but in his unit, I suppose that there were 20

10 to 30 people.

11 Q. Now, can you describe for us what happened after Mr. Seselj

12 entered the building?

13 A. Together with the officers, with Radic and Bojkovski and Stanko

14 Vujanovic as well as some other officers from artillery units, he went

15 into the largest room in that house where a meeting was held.

16 Q. Where were you when this meeting was being held?

17 A. The table was right next to the door, and I was at the table right

18 next to the door of that room. The door was slightly ajar, and one could

19 hear what was being said inside.

20 Q. Were you able to hear Mr. Seselj when he spoke during that

21 meeting?

22 A. Very clearly.

23 Q. And were you able to identify -- the voice that you heard clearly,

24 were you able to identify it as the voice of Mr. Seselj?

25 A. Absolutely.

Page 11685

1 Q. At the time that you are listening to what Mr. Seselj is saying,

2 did you record his words in any way?

3 A. Yes. Yes.

4 Q. How did you record his words?

5 A. I still have them today in a notebook, and I can repeat verbatim

6 several sentences that were uttered by Mr. Seselj on that occasion.

7 Q. So at the time that you are listening to Mr. Seselj, you are

8 recording what you hear in your notebook; is that correct?

9 A. That's correct.

10 Q. Is the original notebook here in The Hague today?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. When you went to -- you gave a statement to the Office of the

13 Prosecutor of the Tribunal. Is that not correct?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. At the time you gave that statement, did you transfer your notes

16 from your notebook into the body of the statement verbatim?

17 A. I didn't quite understand you.

18 Q. At the time that you gave your statement to the Office of the

19 Prosecutor, did you transfer the notes that you had made at the time that

20 you listened to the conversation, did you transfer those notes into the

21 statement?

22 A. Yes.

23 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, pardon me. So that the witness may more

24 accurately describe the contents of that conversation, I'd ask that he be

25 allowed to refer to his statement rather than try to recall the entire

Page 11686

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Page 11687

1 conversation.

2 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Well, clearly that's right, but original will be

3 the notebook itself. Has he got that?

4 MR. GROOME:

5 Q. Do you have the notebook in court here?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Can you find this portion --

8 A. No, but I know this statement. I know it by heart. I know

9 exactly what he had said.

10 Q. I'd ask you to tell us what -- withdrawn. Can you tell us where

11 the notebook is at this moment?

12 A. In the hotel -- it could be in my hotel, but it could also be in

13 the pocket of my coat. No, actually it's here in my coat, in the room

14 where I left my coat, in that room, the witness room.

15 JUDGE MAY: If the witness can recollect, let him give his

16 recollection.

17 MR. GROOME:

18 Q. I would ask you to give us your recollection of your notes

19 regarding what Mr. Seselj said.

20 A. Seselj said verbatim as follows: "We are all one army. This war

21 is a great test for Serbs. Those who pass the test will become winners.

22 Deserters cannot go unpunished. Not a single Ustasha must leave Vukovar

23 alive. We have accepted the concept of a federal army so that there is no

24 legal basis for interference of foreign powers in our conflict. The army

25 is fighting rebel Croats. The army has shown that it was able to cleanse

Page 11688

1 its ranks. We have a unified command consisting of military experts who

2 know what they're doing." And this is what I noted down.

3 Q. Now, Mr. Dulovic, should the Chamber require, are you willing to

4 make that notebook available to it?

5 A. Absolutely.

6 Q. Now, one of the statements that you recorded was that the army had

7 shown it was able to cleanse its ranks. Can you please explain what you

8 understood that to mean?

9 A. I took it to mean -- or, rather, I inferred a conclusion from it

10 that the army had to be exclusively Serb, consisting of soldiers of Serb

11 nationality alone.

12 Q. I want to now draw your attention to a date approximately a week

13 later, the 20th of November, 1991. On that day, were you and other

14 journalists taken to Vukovar Hospital?

15 A. Yes. Stuka Petkovic took me to the hospital because I didn't know

16 that area previously.

17 Q. And Stuka Petkovic was a member of the Yugoslav army?

18 A. Yes. We already said so.

19 Q. And who else -- sorry. Withdrawn. At the time you were taken to

20 the hospital, had you heard any rumours about Croats being killed?

21 A. Yes. I heard them. However, I didn't enter the hospital. It

22 wasn't possible. So I remained outside just like the other journalists

23 did.

24 Q. Can you tell us what you observe outside the hospital at that

25 time?

Page 11689

1 A. I saw Veselin Sljivancanin, several officers of the regular army

2 and several soldiers as well as, I guess, a representative of doctors from

3 the ICRC who talked to Sljivancanin through an interpreter.

4 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, at this time I would like to show the

5 witness a portion of video. I have -- the transcript of that portion is

6 included in the binder of Prosecution Exhibit 342 under tab 10. I have

7 the entire video in my hand and I have the excerpt in the video booth that

8 I wish to show the witness, and it's cued and ready to be played. The

9 excerpt is approximately two minutes log. The Prosecution would like to

10 tender the entire videotape, but it's only a two-minute portion that we

11 wish to show this witness.

12 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Yes, let that be done.

13 MR. GROOME:

14 Q. Mr. Dulovic, I'd ask you to take a look at the monitor in front of

15 you. I would ask that it be adjusted so that he will be able to see the

16 video. I'm going to ask you to watch this video and then I'll ask you

17 some questions afterward. And when the video director is ready, I'd ask

18 that it be played.

19 [Videotape played]

20 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] This is the vicinity of the hospital

21 in Vukovar.

22 "No. No editing.

23 "No, it wasn't good, no.

24 "I got used to better collaboration with the JNA than what I'm

25 getting today.

Page 11690

1 "Than today? What ... what is the matter?

2 "The colonel knows all the problems.

3 "No, no, there aren't any problems ... It's just ...

4 "There's the colonel.

5 "I just know that some ... I just know that some civilians ...

6 "What's the problem? Go on ... State the problem.

7 "The problem is ... look ... I can see the soldiers walking on the

8 streets, I can see the trucks going in ... Look, look, look. There.

9 "Well, now I've opened the bridge to traffic ...

10 "That bridge wasn't open to traffic ...

11 "My colleagues were there.

12 "If, sir, your only concern are the interests of the people who

13 were in the cellar and whom my soldiers are keeping safe, in that case ...

14 that's all taken care of. If it's no concern of yours that I've had young

15 soldiers killed, 18-, 19-, and 20-years-old, then you're not welcome here.

16 You're not welcome if you -- And, sir, my own soldiers have been killed

17 here tonight. And, sir, there's a war on here.

18 "I know.

19 "And we're trying to make sure that you're all safe and left in

20 peace, while you come to me talking of problems. If you don't like it

21 here, feel free to turn back and go where you do like it. And I'm

22 embarrassed to have you treat me this way. Whatever you asked of me, I've

23 given it all."

24 MR. GROOME: Okay. I'd now ask that the video be stopped.

25 Q. Mr. Dulovic, can you tell us who is the man with the moustache in

Page 11691

1 the military uniform?

2 A. Veselin Sljivancanin.

3 Q. And were you present at this scene that we've just seen on the

4 video?

5 A. Yes, I was present. And I was also present at the entrance to the

6 hospital when that same man, Veselin Sljivancanin, and this other one, the

7 representative of the Red Cross, were having a conversation. And they

8 talked to each other in similar -- in a similar tone. The same tone of

9 voice, actually.

10 Q. And is the video that we've just observed, does it accurately

11 record the events as you recall them?

12 A. Absolutely so, yes. Absolutely authentic. That's it.

13 Q. On the video there was a man in a white coat. Who was he?

14 A. That was the representative of the ICRC. He was a doctor, and I

15 think he was a Frenchman.

16 Q. Was he ever allowed to enter the hospital?

17 A. No.

18 Q. While you were there at that time, was there any indication to you

19 that there was an ongoing battle at that time?

20 A. No. Not nearby. Not at all, because Stuka and I had arrived

21 without any problem at all.

22 Q. The doctor from the International Red Cross made a statement

23 regarding trucks. Did you see trucks in the area of the hospital?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Were they trucks from the Yugoslav army?

Page 11692

1 A. There were no others. Yes.

2 Q. Can you describe for us what you observed the trucks doing?

3 A. I saw that the trucks were there and that soldiers and

4 paramilitaries were escorting people into the trucks. They were being

5 taken out of the hospital and into the trucks.

6 Q. For what period of time did you make that observation?

7 A. Well, not long. Perhaps a few minutes.

8 Q. And are you able to approximate for us the number of non-uniformed

9 people you saw get into the trucks during the time that you were observing

10 them?

11 A. As they came out of the hospital, they were taken in groups. They

12 were taken off onto the trucks. So I can't say how many, not even an

13 approximation. But at any rate, there were quite a lot of them.

14 Q. After you were at Vukovar Hospital, did there come a time when you

15 returned to Ulica Nova 81?

16 A. Yes. Yes, that's right.

17 Q. Can you approximate for us the time of day that you returned to

18 that house?

19 A. Towards evening sometime, as far as I remember. I have it in my

20 notebook. This -- the date is the 11th [As interpreted] -- It is 11.00,

21 11.20. I think it says 11.20 is what it says in my notebook when this

22 took place.

23 Q. Now, is there anything unusual about this house this particular

24 night that distinguish it from other nights that you had been there?

25 A. Yes. It was almost half empty. There were no people. Radic

Page 11693

1 wasn't there. Sljivancanin wasn't there, nor was Bojkovski. None of the

2 army people, just Stanka Vujanovic's father was there and his sister.

3 Perhaps another neighbour or two.

4 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Groome, could you clarify the date? The

5 transcript says the date was the 11th. Is it right?

6 MR. GROOME:

7 Q. Mr. Dulovic, I'd ask you to clarify the date. When you said 11,

8 were you speaking about the time or were you speaking about the date?

9 A. It was the 20th, but the time was 11.00, twenty minutes past

10 eleven, thereabouts. But we can check that up in my notebook.

11 Q. Were you at the house the next morning?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Can you describe what you observed in the house to the Chamber?

14 A. At the time, I was in the house opposite, which is where I slept.

15 And the owner of the house was called Pajic.

16 In the morning, there were people there, several people. There

17 was the host, his daughter, his wife Milka. They were having a cup of

18 coffee. They were all drinking coffee in the morning, and some of them

19 were having a brandy too. With them there, there was a man with a beard,

20 and he belonged to Seselj's group or, rather, this man Kameni's group, as

21 he's called. And as far as I was able to learn, he was from Smederevo,

22 and he was saying what he had been doing the previous night and what they

23 had all been doing the previous night, in fact.

24 Q. Can you describe for us as best as you can what these people said

25 they had been doing the night before?

Page 11694

1 A. Just the man that I mentioned was doing the talking, the one with

2 the beard. He was red-headed. He said he was from Smederevo and that he

3 had two brothers. But on that particular occasion, he was speaking in

4 very precise terms, related concrete events. He said that on the previous

5 night in Ovcara, from 5.00 in the afternoon up until 1.00, they had been

6 killing Croats who had been taken out of the Vukovar Hospital.

7 Q. Did he describe anything that the victims may have said or done

8 prior to being killed?

9 A. Yes. He said they had cried and groaned and begged not to be

10 killed because they said they had not shot at anyone.

11 Q. When this man said that this occurred between 5.00 in the

12 afternoon and 1.00, did you understand him to mean it occurred on 5.00 on

13 the 20th of November and continued until 1.00 a.m. on the 21st of

14 November?

15 A. Yes, yes.

16 Q. Was the woman who you've described as Dragica, was she present at

17 that time?

18 A. Yes. She also told me -- told me this. The first man was talking

19 to the whole group gathered there, six or seven people who were there

20 together with me, whereas, Dragica told me on my own. And she confirm the

21 story that the man had told. She said that she had done the shooting too,

22 and she was known otherwise as a brave fighter and that she had killed

23 several people too, but that it was not a good thing that this man was

24 saying all this publicly, in public, for everyone to hear.

25 Q. Did she say or describe for you a request that Major Sljivancanin

Page 11695

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Page 11696

1 had made to her?

2 A. Yes. She told me that Sljivancanin was not with them on that

3 occasion but that he had left a message telling them not to kill all of

4 them but to leave a few of those prisoners so that he could try out on

5 them -- so that he could try out his weapons on them.

6 I should like to mention that it was only Sljivancanin who wore

7 round his neck an automatic. It was not a Kalashnikov, but it was an

8 automatic rifle that had been adapted. It was of the 556 calibre. So it

9 wasn't a Kalashnikov. It was an automatic. And this is an unsuccessful

10 attempt to adapt an automatic rifle into an automatic.

11 Q. Did Dragica describe for you what was done with the bodies after

12 these people had been killed?

13 A. Yes. She told me that they used a bulldozer to cover up the

14 bodies, bury the bodies at Ovcara.

15 Q. Later that morning, did you see anything unusual in the yard of

16 Ulica Nova 81?

17 A. Yes. At the entrance to the yard, on the right-hand side there

18 was a -- an awning of sorts and underneath it there were camouflage

19 uniforms and trousers heaped up in a pile and ends of the trousers were

20 bloody. You could see traces of blood on the trouser legs.

21 Q. When you say the ends of the trouser legs, do you mean the

22 bottom-most portion of the trouser leg, nearest the shoe?

23 A. Yes. Yes.

24 Q. And can you approximate for us how far up the leg you saw these

25 bloodstains?

Page 11697

1 A. Not even up until the knees. It was ten to 15 centimetres up from

2 the shoes thereabouts.

3 Q. Did there come a time when you spoke --

4 A. Halfway up the leg.

5 Q. Did there come a time when you speak to Vujanovic regarding what

6 happened at Ovcara?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. And what did he say?

9 A. He told me -- or, rather, I asked him why this was being talked

10 about publicly, and he said that he did not have enough men of his own but

11 that he had taken those drunken Seselj's men who were now blabbing, and he

12 said that it would come to no good. It was not a good thing.

13 Q. Now, Vujanovic was with the Territorial Defence --

14 JUDGE MAY: I think before we move on it is time for a break. Is

15 that a convenient moment, Mr. Groome?

16 MR. GROOME: Yes, Your Honour.

17 JUDGE MAY: Before we do break, I'd like to have it clarified

18 where the conversation with the red-haired man with the beard took place.

19 It wasn't clear whether it was in Ulica Nova 81 or whether it was in the

20 house opposite.

21 MR. GROOME:

22 Q. Mr. Dulovic, I'd ask you to address the question posed by His

23 Honour.

24 A. The house opposite the road. The house opposite, belonging to the

25 Pajic family, where is where I went as well. These are two houses

Page 11698

1 opposite each other, one each side of the road.

2 JUDGE MAY: We will adjourn now for 20 minutes.

3 --- Recess taken at 12.16 p.m.

4 --- On resuming at 12.37 p.m.

5 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Ms. Higgins.

6 MS. HIGGINS: Your Honour, may I seek a point of clarification in

7 relation to the video which the Prosecution has tendered in relation to

8 tab 10? A two-minute extract has been shown to this particular witness,

9 and he has clarified that he was present at the time the video was taken.

10 It seems unclear in relation to the rest of the video whether the witness

11 was present, who took the -- who took the video, and its precise contents.

12 I understand that the Prosecution may seek to use the video with other

13 witnesses. It would be my submission that it may be perhaps more

14 appropriate to admit the video, but to exhibit only the extract to which

15 this witness can speak to unless further clarification can be sought, Your

16 Honour.

17 JUDGE MAY: Well, we've had clarification of the particular

18 extract which has been exhibited. It is our practice to admit videos

19 rather than to go through a laborious procedure of identification.

20 We don't know what's on -- what's on the rest of the video?

21 Perhaps you would help us with that, Mr. Groome.

22 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, it's a compilation of other news footage

23 taken in the Vukovar area around the same time period.

24 JUDGE MAY: It may be then appropriate to deal with it extract by

25 extract if it's not a single document.

Page 11699

1 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, the Prosecution would agree and perhaps

2 they would assist in that if I would note that on the entire video the

3 portion we looked at began at two hours and ten minutes and continued for

4 approximately two minutes.

5 JUDGE MAY: Yes. If someone would keep a record of that so that

6 we know which parts have been admitted and which haven't.

7 MR. GROOME: The Prosecution will undertake that, Your Honour.

8 JUDGE MAY: Thank you. Yes.

9 MR. GROOME:

10 Q. Mr. Dulovic, you -- just before the break, you described a

11 conversation you had regarding Ovcara with a member of the Territorial

12 Defence. Did you also have a conversation regarding what happened at

13 Ovcara with a member of the Yugoslav army?

14 A. Yes. In the courtyard of the house of Stanko Vujanovic, I met

15 Radic, Captain Radic, and asked him the same thing I had asked Stanko

16 Vujanovic -- or, rather, I didn't ask. I told him what the rumours were,

17 that they had killed prisoners from the hospital. And he made a gesture

18 with his hand like this, and he said more or less the same thing that

19 Stanko Vujanovic said. He also mentioned that it would not be a good

20 thing. He didn't, however, say that they had taken -- had to take the

21 drunken Seselj's men, as Vujanovic had done. He just swore and said what

22 had happened had happened. That was it more or less.

23 Q. Now, did there come a time that you learned that an order was

24 issued by the Yugoslav army regarding volunteers?

25 A. Yes. It was some sort of provision by which everybody was placed

Page 11700

1 under the uniform command of the army of Yugoslavia and that they would be

2 fighting within the frameworks of the army.

3 Q. And when did you learn of that order?

4 A. I don't know. I really can't remember.

5 Q. Now, after the fall of Vukovar, did you have an opportunity to

6 interview Serbs who had been trapped in Vukovar when it was under siege?

7 A. Yes, a number of them.

8 Q. And can you tell us generally what their comments were to you

9 regarding the conditions of their living in Vukovar at the time?

10 A. Well, yes. They said that they were in shelters or in the

11 hospital, those of them who were in the hospital, and that they were

12 treated just like the Croats were treated, in the same way. I talked to a

13 number of people whose names, first names and last names and places of

14 residence I have here in my pocket.

15 Q. Now, did there come a time after you were in Vukovar that someone

16 gave you a document which is entitled "An urgent telegram," and it is

17 dated the 23rd of October, 1991?

18 A. Yes. It wasn't, of course, in Vukovar. It was later on in

19 Belgrade.

20 Q. And who was the author of this telegram?

21 A. Lieutenant Colonel Milan Eremija. A lieutenant colonel of the

22 Yugoslav army, Milan Eremija.

23 Q. And can you tell us approximately when you received the document?

24 A. Well, quite a bit later. I don't know exactly when this was, the

25 date.

Page 11701

1 Q. Did you describe for us the circumstances under which you came

2 into possession of this document?

3 A. Lieutenant colonel Milan Eremija was in Sid. That's where he was,

4 and that's where his headquarters were or, rather, the place that he was

5 on duty at. And with Eremija there was a clerk working there for him. He

6 was a colleague of mine, quite a bit younger than myself, and he was a

7 reservist too. And he gave me the document as he worked in the same

8 office and perhaps had even written the document out.

9 Q. Did you provide a copy of this document to the Office of the

10 Prosecutor?

11 A. Yes.

12 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, I'd ask now that Prosecution Exhibit

13 342, tab 11, be placed on the overhead projector in position that the

14 witness may see it.

15 Q. And, Mr. Dulovic, I would ask you to take a look at this

16 three-page document that has now been placed on the overhead projector.

17 Mr. --

18 A. Yes, that is the document in question.

19 Q. I want to ask you about some of the contents of the document. In

20 that document, that urgent telegram, does it recount comments made by

21 General Tomislav Simovic, the Minister of Defence for the Republic of

22 Serbia?

23 A. Yes. In a portion of the document, it says that the reservists

24 were dissatisfied with the fact that their stay had been extended from one

25 month. It doesn't say that here, but I know that, that it was extended

Page 11702

1 from one month to 40 days and that they threatened to leave, to go back

2 themselves at their own initiative after the 30-day period had expired.

3 Q. Mr. Dulovic, this telegram sent by Eremija, who is it addressed

4 to?

5 A. As it says here on the document, it is to the command of the first

6 military district.

7 Q. I want to direct your attention to heading 4, paragraph 3 of that

8 document. Does this telegram complain about the deliberate spread of

9 misinformation, including the exaggeration of numbers of opposing forces,

10 the existence of invincible snipers, and the existence of baskets of

11 eyeballs that have been gouged from the heads of Serbs? Is that one of

12 the matters contained in this document?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And following under that heading, I would quote from the English

15 translation of the document: "In the combat activity zone of the 1st

16 PGMD, the main motive behind the presence of several groups of different

17 paramilitary formations from Serbia, Chetniks, the Dusan Silni detachment

18 and various self-styled volume volunteers is not to combat the enemy but

19 loot people's property and engage in the sadistic abuse of innocent

20 civilians of Croatian nationality." Is that one of the complaints made in

21 that document?

22 A. Yes, yes.

23 Q. Does it also describe an event in the village of Lovas, and I'm

24 quoting from the document: "After the arrival of the Valjevo detachment

25 in the village of Lovas, the captured villagers were used for clearing

Page 11703

1 minefields and 17 villagers were killed"? Does it say that?

2 A. Yes. Yes.

3 Q. The last portion of the document I'd like to put to you is under

4 the heading number 5, and it's captioned "Proposals for improving morale

5 in the units." The first in the list of five different proposals for

6 improving morale is the following, and I'm quoting from the English

7 translation: "Undertake the organised disarming of paramilitary

8 formations, in particular of the Dusan Silni detachment, Chetniks and

9 Arkan's soldiers; authorities of the Republic of Serbia must participate

10 in the campaign."

11 Was that the top proposal in the list of five proposals that this

12 document by Colonel Eremija makes?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. During the course of your work in both Croatia and Bosnia, did you

15 ever see any indication of any attempt to implement this proposal?

16 A. No. No. Not at a single moment. Obviously this was not accepted

17 in the command and by the command.

18 Q. Do you know why Lieutenant Colonel Eremija asserted that it was

19 necessary for the Republic of Serbia to participate in the disarming of

20 paramilitary formations?

21 A. Well, because I think there was no one else who could have

22 possibly done it. I think that this was an almost inconceivable task,

23 because there were many paramilitaries and many armed people.

24 Mobilisation was such that hardly anybody responded. The call-up had

25 almost failed.

Page 11704

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Page 11705

1 Q. Mr. Dulovic, after the events of Vukovar, were you called before a

2 military Court in Belgrade to give testimony before an investigating judge

3 who was a military officer regarding the matters you have testified about

4 here today?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. I would ask that the witness be shown Prosecution Exhibit 342, tab

7 12, the original Serbian version.

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Do you recognise tab 12, the document that is tab 12?

10 A. Yes, yes.

11 Q. And what is that document?

12 A. That is a record of a witness interview, namely myself.

13 Q. And what is the date of that interview?

14 A. The 9th of February, 2000.

15 Q. And who was the investigating judge who you were interviewed by?

16 A. It is the current president of the military court, namely Djordje

17 Trifunovic.

18 Q. And did you provide evidence about the same events you have

19 described here today?

20 A. Yes, the same events.

21 Q. Did you identify the perpetrators of the crimes you have described

22 here today?

23 A. Not for the record, but I did talk about it, yes, during the

24 interview. I asked during the interview against who these proceedings

25 were initiated, and he said NN, perpetrators unknown.

Page 11706

1 Q. And did you identify to him the specific names of the people that

2 you believed to be involved in the commission of crimes?

3 A. Yes. A lot of people knew about this and talked about this, but

4 quite simply, it was clear to me that when it was said that they were

5 perpetrators unknown, that the state and the army stood behind them and

6 that they didn't want to identify them or accuse them but that proceedings

7 were being carried out against NN, persons unknown.

8 Q. I want to draw your attention for a minute to another military

9 proceeding. In his opening, Mr. Milosevic showed us graphic video footage

10 of the tragic murder of a young soldier in a tank in Split. As part of

11 your duties, did you cover a trial related to that matter?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Where was that trial held?

14 A. The trial was held in Sarajevo at the Marsal Tito barracks, and

15 the entire case was called "The Strangler from Split."

16 Q. And can you tell us when that trial was held?

17 A. I don't know. I've forgotten. I don't know. I'm not sure.

18 Q. Were several people tried, convicted, and sentenced to serve gaol

19 terms as a result of the trial that you watched?

20 A. Yes. Now, I want to return to the military proceeding in which

21 you were a witness. On the 9th of February, 2000, who was the president

22 of Yugoslavia at that time?

23 A. 2000?

24 Q. Yes, at the time of your testimony.

25 A. Well, I'm not very good at dates. I guess it was Zoran Lilic.

Page 11707

1 You're talking about the president of Yugoslavia, right?

2 Q. Yes, on the 9th of February, 2000.

3 A. Believe me that I don't know. I don't know whether it was

4 Milosevic or Lilic.

5 Q. Were any of the perpetrators that you identified as committing

6 crimes, were any of them ever arrested or detained to your knowledge?

7 A. As far as I know, only the Vuckovic brothers or, rather, Dusan and

8 Vojin.

9 Q. To your knowledge, were any of the perpetrators that you

10 identified in your testimony, were any of them ever summonsed before the

11 military court in Belgrade to respond to your allegations?

12 A. I never heard of any such thing, nor did I ever read of any such

13 thing.

14 Q. Now, during the course of your work as a journalist, did you also

15 visit municipalities in Bosnia?

16 A. Yes.

17 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, at this time, this would be the first

18 time the Prosecution is tendering Bosnian maps. There are a number of

19 maps that I would seek to use with this witness. They have been prepared

20 in a separate binder for Bosnia if that is acceptable to the Chamber.

21 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this will be marked Prosecutor's

22 Exhibit 343.

23 MR. GROOME: I'm going to ask that Prosecution Exhibit 343, tab 1,

24 be placed on the overhead projector and placed on it in such a way that

25 the right-hand portion of the map is what's visible.

Page 11708

1 Q. Mr. Dulovic, I'm going to ask you this afternoon about events

2 which you witnessed in Zvornik, Bratunac, and Visegrad. I would ask that

3 you use the pointer and just indicate the location of Zvornik.

4 A. [Indicates]

5 Q. Could you then please indicate the location of Bratunac.

6 A. [Indicates]

7 Q. And finally, could you indicate the location of Visegrad.

8 A. [Indicates]

9 Q. Thank you. Mr. Dulovic, I want to draw your attention now to the

10 spring of 1992 and ask you, was there a media campaign in Serbia regarding

11 what was believed -- about events that were believed that were about to

12 take place in Zvornik?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And can you characterise that media campaign for us?

15 A. The media campaign was a gross exaggeration, full of lies, lies

16 for the most part about a great danger looming over the Serbs in Bosnia.

17 There were incredible details involved, fabrications. For example, that

18 lions in Sarajevo, wild beasts in the Sarajevo zoo were being fed Serb

19 children.

20 Q. Did you -- I'm sorry.

21 A. Not to go into all of that. All of it is quite similar. There

22 are a lot of examples of this kind of thing, this kind of campaign.

23 Q. Did you, after receiving authorisation to travel to Zvornik, did

24 you in fact go there to investigate what was taking place?

25 A. Yes. I did go to Drina, only to Mali Zvornik.

Page 11709

1 Q. Can you approximate for us or do you recall the date that you

2 first went to Zvornik in the spring of 1992?

3 A. 10th of April.

4 Q. Now, I just want to ask you a couple of questions about the

5 geography of Zvornik so it is clear to the Chamber its position in the

6 former Yugoslavia. Am I correct that the eastern-most border of Bosnia in

7 many places is the Drina River? Is that correct?

8 A. Yes. Yes.

9 Q. And does the municipality of Zvornik lie on the western bank of

10 the Drina River?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And across the Drina River, on the eastern bank, is Serbia, more

13 specifically the municipality of Mali Zvornik; is that correct?

14 A. Yes. Yes, that's correct.

15 Q. Now, the Drina is a long river. How would you characterise the

16 width of the Drina where it passes through the city of Zvornik?

17 A. It depends on the time of year. When there's a drought, then it's

18 much smaller than when the tide comes in. It can be about a hundred

19 metres. When I was there, it was smaller. I can't really say exactly how

20 many metres, but it wasn't more than 50-odd metres when I was there. But

21 I saw it when there was a lot more water before.

22 Q. Now, what time of the day of the 10th of April, 1992, did you

23 arrive at Mali Zvornik?

24 A. The morning.

25 Q. And can you describe for us your observations at the time that you

Page 11710

1 arrived in Mali Zvornik?

2 A. First of all, I couldn't cross the bridge. It wasn't allowed.

3 They wouldn't let anyone pass. Gunfire could be heard, shelling, and

4 artillery fire. I also saw a few corpses by the Drina.

5 Q. Did the gunfire appear to you as if a battle were taking place?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Who prevented you from crossing the bridge into Zvornik?

8 A. There were people on both sides, but I was prevented by the Muslim

9 side to get to the left bank of the Drina River or, rather, to Zvornik.

10 Quite simply, they wouldn't let anyone pass even with a permit. However,

11 they did allow volunteers, as far as I can remember.

12 So during that attempt, I didn't manage to enter Zvornik or,

13 rather, I could not reach Zvornik. Simply this was not being allowed by

14 men who were armed, armed men who were on both sides of the bridge.

15 Q. Now, you said you weren't allowed by the Muslim side. Did you

16 mean people on the Bosnian side of the river or did you mean that the

17 people who prevented you were Muslims?

18 A. No, no, no. It was not Muslims. These were Serbs.

19 Q. And you said that you -- volunteers were permitted to cross the

20 bridge. Are these the same types of volunteers that you've described for

21 us earlier in your testimony regarding Vukovar?

22 A. Well, I couldn't identify them then. It was just volunteers.

23 Volunteers had call-up papers because beforehand, for example, Seselj's

24 volunteers had some kind of permits, and they could pass there because

25 they had been announced previously. I was a journalist. I did have a

Page 11711

1 permit, but I couldn't pass.

2 Q. Were you able to see whether there were any Yugoslav army tanks in

3 Zvornik from looking across the river?

4 A. Yes. Yes. Yes, I saw tanks. The first one was at Karakaj bridge

5 on the river bank. Not on the Serb side, on the Muslim side. But it was

6 our tank. It was a tank of the army of Yugoslavia.

7 Q. Now, what did you do when you were refused entry into Bosnia

8 through Zvornik?

9 A. Then I proceeded. On the Serb side there is a road right by the

10 Drina, so I started moving upstream along the Drina towards Bajna Basta.

11 Q. Just so there's no confusion, when you said you moved upstream

12 along the Drina, which compass point or compass direction is that? Is it

13 south or is it north?

14 A. South. I'd have to really see a map.

15 MR. GROOME: I'm going to ask that Mr. Dulovic be shown

16 Prosecution Exhibit 343, tab 2, a map of Zvornik that he has made some

17 markings on prior to his testimony. I'd ask that it be placed on the

18 overhead projector.

19 Q. First I'd ask you if --

20 MR. GROOME: Perhaps if the video director can zoom out so we can

21 see more of the map. I would ask that the map be shifted upward somewhat.

22 Just up so that we can see the bottom portion of the map. Thank you.

23 Q. Mr. Dulovic, I would just ask you to run the pointer along the

24 course of the Drina River so we can all see where the Drina River flows in

25 this part of Yugoslavia.

Page 11712

1 A. From Zvornik, I started moving towards the south. This is the

2 Drina. This is Serbia. This is Bosnia. The municipality of Zvornik. So

3 from Zvornik, I started moving towards the south along a road that goes

4 right by the Drina. And the other river bank can be seen from there, the

5 Muslim side.

6 Q. Can you show on the map approximately where it was that you

7 attempted to cross from Serbia into Bosnia?

8 A. Zvornik here.

9 Q. Now, I want to ask you a few questions that will not require the

10 map but I would ask that it be left on the overhead projector.

11 Mr. Dulovic, can you describe for us what if anything you observed

12 as you travelled south along the Drina down along Zvornik, the

13 municipality of Zvornik?

14 A. As I was going down this road, from time to time I would see

15 groups of people on the Serb side on this road right by the Drina, and

16 they were looking at the Bosnian side. For the most part, there are

17 forests there. They were on fire -- or, rather, houses were on fire.

18 Smoke could be seen. However, it was hard to see a house. These people

19 know about this. I talked to these people who were standing there. We

20 stopped the car. I walked out, and I talked to these people who were

21 silently and without any kind of delight watching houses burning on the

22 other side. The only indication was this smoke that was going up at

23 certain locations.

24 Q. Were some of these people able to identify whether the location

25 where the smoke was coming from, whether it was a predominantly Muslim

Page 11713

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1 village or a Serb village?

2 A. These people know every locality on the other side of the Drina

3 River very well, on the Muslim side, because many of them have or, rather,

4 had property on the Muslim side, and that is where they till their land.

5 That is to say that they crossed the Drina River and they tilled their

6 land there. They knew every village, every house, even every house. I

7 talked to them, and they told me about this.

8 Q. Did they indicate to you whether they were Muslim villages where

9 the smoke was coming from or Serb villages?

10 A. Yes, they did mention these villages to me. They mentioned the

11 villages of Redzici, Djapici, Krasno Polje, Rzine. Some other villages

12 too.

13 Q. I would ask you to look at the Prosecution Exhibit 343, tab 2,

14 that's the map that's on the overhead projector now, and with the pointer

15 if you could please point to the village of Redzici?

16 A. [Indicates]

17 Q. Did I ask you to place an X to approximate the location where you

18 were when you saw smoke coming from this village?

19 A. Yes. Yes. All of this is a forest.

20 MR. GROOME: I now ask that the witness be shown a map, 343, tab

21 3, a map of Bratunac that the witness has prior to his testimony marked

22 with a red marker.

23 Q. Was Lonjin one of the Muslim villages that was indicated to you,

24 or was that one of the villages that you saw burning which was indicated

25 to you by Serbs that it was a Muslim village?

Page 11715

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. And did you place an X on this map to indicate your approximate

3 location where you were when you observed this village burning?

4 A. Yes.

5 MR. GROOME: I'm finished with that map at this stage.

6 Q. Did there come a time when you were able to enter Bosnia on the

7 10th of April?

8 A. Yes, partially -- or, rather, I crossed into Bosnia from Bajna

9 Basta.

10 Q. While on the Bosnian side did you see men in a Golf brand car

11 drive along the road?

12 A. Yes. They were coming and going towards the Drina River. It was

13 a Golf car which was unusual. The car was full, and there were two

14 soldiers or, rather, people in uniform, not soldiers but they were armed,

15 who sat in the -- in the trunk. There were some other people there who

16 were also armed. And as they were passing, they slowed down and the men

17 asked them where they were going, and they replied that they were going to

18 destroy the mosque.

19 When I passed there after I crossed the bridge, the mosque was

20 still standing.

21 Q. The car, was the car crossing the bridge?

22 A. No. No. The car turned to the left right before the bridge and

23 drove towards the mosque which is visible also from the other side, from

24 the Serb side, because it was quite close to the Drina River.

25 Q. Did there come a time when you returned to the Serb side and you

Page 11716

1 were in the same position where you had earlier seen the mosque standing?

2 A. When I arrived, the mosque was intact. When I was leaving, the

3 minaret was missing, and I was still on the Muslim side at the time when

4 the explosion was heard.

5 Q. Now, at some point during this day, did you return back to the

6 Serbian side?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. At some later time, did you, along with some colleagues, go to or

9 travel to Visegrad?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And prior to going to Visegrad, did you stay in the city of Uzice

12 in Serbia?

13 A. Yes. Yes. I slept in a hotel in Uzice.

14 Q. And would it be fair to say that Uzice is the first major Serbian

15 city east of the Drina?

16 A. That's correct.

17 Q. Now, did there come a time when you left Uzice and drove to the

18 outskirts of Visegrad?

19 A. Yes. We headed towards Visegrad.

20 Q. I want you to describe for us the location where it was outside of

21 Visegrad that you first saw armed forces.

22 A. We came in a car as far as we could because the army was

23 already -- had already been stationed there in front of us. And there was

24 an embankment there with trenches, and one couldn't go past that

25 embankment further on. In front of us we could see Visegrad, which was

Page 11717

1 fairly close, not more than a kilometre and a half.

2 Q. What you're describing as an embankment, was that a naturally

3 occurring embankment or did it appear to be some sort of fortification?

4 A. It was a natural embankment that had been used as a fortification,

5 and there was a trench dug out in that fortification. In one place that

6 looked like a guard tower there were logs piled up and covered with soil

7 as is normally done in wartime when fortifications are created.

8 Q. Did you form an opinion whether these fortifications that you

9 observed had just been completed that day or whether they had been

10 completed over the course of several days before you arrived?

11 A. It was impossible to do that in one day. It was done previously.

12 I don't know when.

13 Q. At this location, did you see any indication of the presence of

14 either paramilitary or volunteer forces?

15 A. At that time, not yet. There was the army there. There were

16 vehicles, but where I was and where the soldiers were, I did not see

17 paramilitaries there together with the soldiers.

18 Q. From this location, were you able to see the western bank of the

19 Drina?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Can you please describe your observations of the western bank at

22 this time?

23 A. I saw a settlement. It was a part of Visegrad. Some dozen houses

24 were on fire. However, there was no fighting going on there, none at all.

25 Q. Before I ask you any further questions about Visegrad, it may be

Page 11718

1 helpful to ask you a couple of geographical questions. Would I be correct

2 in saying that in this portion or along this stretch of the Drina, the

3 Drina is not the border between Bosnia and Serbia but, rather, that both

4 sides of the Drina are of the Bosnian municipality of Visegrad?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Now, was it your intention or -- withdraw that question.

7 Did you learn that the Yugoslav army was planning to enter the

8 town of Visegrad on this day?

9 A. Yes. I heard that in Uzice because it involved the Uzice Corps.

10 Q. And was it the intention of you and your colleagues to travel with

11 the Yugoslav army as it entered the town of Visegrad?

12 A. Yes. That was our intention if it was possible to achieve.

13 Q. Can you describe how long you waited at this place of

14 fortification before you travelled with the Yugoslav army into the town of

15 Visegrad?

16 A. Well, for quite a long time. Perhaps a couple of hours.

17 Q. Can you describe your observations as you entered the town of

18 Visegrad with the Yugoslav army?

19 A. Well, we were still at that embankment, it seemed strange to me

20 that fortifications were being erected, because apart from smoke rising up

21 from those houses, there was no shooting going on, nor was there any

22 activity. It seemed like empty, deserted town. I saw one man working in

23 his garden, doing something there, digging. So it was strange to me that

24 there was all that power there and at the same time it seemed that one

25 could simply enter the town without any combat.

Page 11719

1 Q. Could you describe what you observed in the town centre when you

2 eventually arrived there?

3 A. Once the army arrived and I was there together with the army, I

4 saw a lot of civilians with arms, and it became clear to me that those

5 were paramilitaries. And I also saw officers of the Yugoslav army,

6 because at that time something was going on in front of the hotel.

7 Q. Before we get to the incident at the hotel, I want to ask you

8 whether you formed an impression as to whether those paramilitaries

9 entered the town at the same time as the Yugoslav army or had entered the

10 town at sometime prior to the entry of the Yugoslav army?

11 A. I entered with the advanced party of the army, and the

12 paramilitary was not mixed with the army then, but once we entered the

13 town, it was full of paramilitaries who obviously had arrived in Zvornik

14 prior to army entering it. Oh, I'm sorry. Not Zvornik, Visegrad. I

15 apologise.

16 Q. Could you tell us what specific observations you made that helped

17 you form the impression that the paramilitaries had entered the town

18 before the Yugoslav army?

19 A. Well, I will describe to you one person with weapons which leads

20 to an unavoidable conclusion that that was paramilitary. That man wore

21 sneakers, torn sneakers, jeans, a winter military jacket, and a female

22 hat, a huge one on his head. In his hands, he held an automatic rifle, a

23 Kalashnikov. To me, that seemed like a member of a paramilitary, some

24 kind of paramilitary. They all had strange hats.

25 MR. GROOME: Excuse me, Your Honour?

Page 11720

1 JUDGE ROBINSON: I don't think he understood your question.

2 MR. GROOME: I'll ask it again, Your Honour.

3 Q. Was there anything that you observed about this particular person

4 or the other paramilitaries that you saw in the town when you arrived?

5 What was it about the situation that indicated to you that they had

6 arrived some period of time prior to the arrival of the Yugoslav army?

7 A. I concluded that based on the fact that they did not enter the

8 town with us. They had already been there. Only the paramilitary could

9 have arrived there prior to the regular army. And there were a number of

10 details based on which, including the behaviour of those people, one could

11 conclude that the paramilitaries had arrived earlier.

12 That man with that hat had to acquire that hat from one of the

13 local houses. He couldn't have brought it with him. I don't know if I

14 was clear enough.

15 Q. You began to describe an incident that occurred in front of a

16 hotel. Is that the Hotel Visegrad?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And is that the hotel that is in close proximity to the old

19 Turkish bridge that crosses the Drina through Visegrad?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Can you describe what --

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Can you describe what occurred at the Hotel Visegrad?

24 A. A member of the paramilitary or a volunteer had broken the

25 entrance door of the hotel and entered it. An officer, there are several

Page 11721

1 officers there, but one blondish officer got really mad and ordered, as

2 there were several military policemen there, to get a hold of the

3 paramilitary.

4 They entered the hotel and took this paramilitary soldier out.

5 The officer was yelling and said that he would shoot him, because he quite

6 mad.

7 Q. So --

8 A. Naturally they didn't shoot him.

9 Q. So you observed a Yugoslav captain order the arrest of a

10 paramilitary for breaking the glass door in the Hotel Visegrad; is that

11 correct?

12 A. Yes. And he entered the building.

13 Q. Now, did there come a time when you observed a long column of

14 people in Visegrad?

15 A. Yes. I saw a very long column which passed some ten metres from

16 me. I was standing with a colleague of mine, and we watched the column

17 passing by.

18 Q. Can you describe where you first saw the column and the path that

19 the column took?

20 A. As far as I could see, and I didn't follow the entire column, I

21 saw it passing by, and I saw the front of the column. There was a soldier

22 ahead of it, several soldiers, and there was a machine-gun there too. The

23 truck at the head of the column drove slowly, and the people walked behind

24 it. The column consisted mostly of the elderly, women and children. They

25 were walking, and we were told this afterwards when we inquired of those

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Page 11723

1 people or of the officers, they were heading towards Tuzla.

2 To my colleague who was there with me, this was very sad. I

3 didn't want to engage in conversation with the people passing by. My

4 colleague approached a woman who wore Muslim pantaloons, and she asked her

5 about what happened. And the woman, as she continued walking, simply

6 replied that she didn't know but that her son had gone out to feed cattle

7 in front of the barn and had been killed by some armed people. They

8 gathered by some people and groups were made of them which later turned

9 into this column.

10 And what you asked me just now, that -- how I concluded that

11 somebody had arrived there earlier, I would like to add on to this the

12 following: The army with whom I entered Visegrad was unable to gather

13 from surrounding villages this number of people and to line them up in

14 columns. All of this had been done prior to the arrival of the army in

15 Zvornik.

16 Q. Mr. Dulovic, would you estimate for us how many people were in

17 this column?

18 A. I'm sorry, Visegrad. I keep saying Zvornik, but this was

19 Visegrad. I'm talking about Visegrad, and I keep confusing the two.

20 Q. That's okay. Would you estimate for us the number of people in

21 this column?

22 A. Several hundred people. I can't tell you exactly, but a large

23 number.

24 Q. And were many of the people carrying things with them?

25 A. All of them took as much as they were able to get and carry on

Page 11724

1 their backs. They carried suitcases. Some people even had two suitcases

2 tied onto their bodies, one on each side. There were some elderly people

3 who could barely walk, women as well.

4 Q. Mr. Dulovic, did there come a time when you left Visegrad that day

5 and you saw the body of a 70-year-old man?

6 A. Yes. That happened on the return, on the return leg. We saw that

7 body near a river, a small river. It was probably Rzav, the Rzav River.

8 There was the body of a man whose hands were tied at his back. This was

9 an old man. His body was next to the water.

10 There were some reservists there, and among them a physician who

11 told us that this man had been strangled and that he was a Muslim. I

12 asked him how he knew about this, and he said that he knew this based on

13 something that is normally done in Muslim countries, namely circumcision.

14 MR. GROOME: If Your Honour wishes, I have one more question

15 regarding Visegrad.

16 JUDGE MAY: Yes.

17 MR. GROOME:

18 Q. Further on your way out of Visegrad, did you stop at a cafe to

19 report your story about what you had observed in Visegrad?

20 A. Yes. It was a pub, a tavern, not a coffee shop. And there was a

21 telephone inside, and that was a good opportunity for me to telephone in

22 my story. My story was devoted to the entry of the army into Visegrad. I

23 had to yell quite loudly into the telephone. There were some people

24 sitting around in camouflage uniforms, and one of them jumped to his feet,

25 took a pistol out, and started threatening me because he had heard me say

Page 11725

1 that the army had entered Visegrad first. He claimed that they had

2 entered it first. He introduced himself as a member of Arkan's units. He

3 said he was Arkan's man, something like that.

4 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, that concludes the examination regarding

5 Visegrad. I will be asking about Zvornik perhaps tomorrow.

6 JUDGE MAY: Very well. We will adjourn now.

7 Mr. Dulovic, would you be back, please, tomorrow morning, 9.00, to

8 continue your evidence.

9 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.47 p.m.,

10 to be reconvened on Thursday, the 17th day of

11 October, 2002, at 9.00 a.m.

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