Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 14092

1 Monday, 9 December 2002

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 [The witness entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 9.00 a.m.

6 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff.

7 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Thank you, Your Honour.

8 WITNESS: MILAN BABIC [Resumed]

9 [Witness answered through interpreter]

10 Re-examined by Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff:

11 Q. Good morning, Witness. Can you hear me?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Mr. Babic, during cross-examination, Mr. Milosevic spoke with you

14 about Dusan Jovic, TO commander in Glina appointed by you, and the exhibit

15 was actually tab 118 of Exhibit 352. Did Mr. Jovic actually fulfill his

16 position and did he command the TO units in Glina during any military

17 operations in 1991?

18 A. Mr. -- Dr. Dusan Jovic was appointed at the end of July 1991, but

19 he was not able to take up his positions, perform his duties, because of

20 the obstructions that were going on, first of all, in the structures in

21 Dvor, Kostajnica, Petrinja, or rather, the North Banija division. He

22 performed the function as president of the municipal Assembly of Glina.

23 That was the authority and competence he had.

24 Q. And who obstructed him taking up the position of TO commander;

25 which organisations?

Page 14093

1 A. All the structures, the commander of the Central Banija, Bojan

2 Bajagic, and then the JNA units and police units in the area.

3 Q. You also appointed, on the 4th of October, 1991, Major Cupovic and

4 other reserve officers to be -- to form the TO staff in Glina.

5 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: And that's tab 134, Your Honours, from the

6 same exhibit.

7 Q. Did they actually fulfill and take up the position or were they

8 also obstructed? Do you know?

9 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness come closer to the microphone.

10 Thank you.

11 A. I don't remember exactly how it happened, what the events were.

12 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:

13 Q. Can you come a little bit closer to the microphone so that the

14 interpreters can hear you better.

15 Mr. Milosevic also spoke with you about Dr. Radovan Markovic, and

16 he referred to a letter to Arkan.

17 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: And this document was not tendered so far,

18 Your Honours, and therefore I would like to put it to the witness and also

19 tender it.

20 Q. Witness, please have a look at the Serbian version of this

21 document. It is a letter from Dr. Markovic to Arkan in Belgrade of the

22 25th of November, 1991, in relation to the participation of Arkan's unit

23 in the defence of Petrinja, and it says here: "We agree with the

24 proposition that members of the Zeljko Raznjatovic, Arkan's unit,

25 participate in fightings on the JNA and TO positions in the municipality

Page 14094

1 of Petrinja. The unit will be commanded by a senior officer, and the unit

2 will be part of and under the command of the commander of the 2nd

3 Motorised Battalion of the 622nd Motorised Brigade." And I would like to

4 know from you who made this proposition that Arkan's unit participate in

5 the fighting on the JNA and TO positions. Do you know that?

6 A. I don't know. As far as I can see from here, it is Dr. Radovan

7 Markovic, president of the Municipal Assembly of Petrinja who gave his

8 permission for that and agreed to it, in fact.

9 Q. And there is also mentioned the 622nd Motorised Brigade. Is that

10 a JNA brigade or a TO unit? Do you know that?

11 A. It's a JNA brigade.

12 Q. And do you know who commanded this brigade?

13 A. I don't know exactly, but Slobodan Tarbuk was there. Whether he

14 was the commander of the brigade or the whole garrison in Petrinja, I'm

15 not quite sure. Colonel Slobodan Tarbuk, whether he was commander of the

16 brigade or the garrison, I'm not quite sure, I don't know exactly.

17 Q. There is a Bogdan Ercegovac mentioned in this letter. Do you know

18 whether he was a JNA officer or what his position was?

19 A. He was a JNA officer, I know that. As far as I know, he was

20 appointed commander of the TO in Petrinja for one particular detachment in

21 Petrinja, or rather probably. It was renamed the motorised battalion.

22 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please be asked to speak into

23 the microphone, thank you.

24 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:

25 Q. The interpreters still have difficulties to understand you.

Page 14095

1 Please speak into the microphones.

2 Did Arkan actually take part in the fighting in Petrinja in

3 November 1991, do you know that?

4 A. I don't know about that.

5 Q. In relation to this 622nd --

6 JUDGE MAY: If we are moving from the document, we should give it

7 an exhibit number first.

8 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this will be Prosecutor's Exhibit

9 352, tab 172.

10 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes.

11 Q. In relation to the 622nd Motorised Brigade, I would like to put to

12 the witness another exhibit which is also not yet tendered.

13 It is an order of the Commander Spiro Nikolic of the 1st

14 Operational Group Command, dated 19 October, 1991, and it's placing TO

15 units under JNA units. And we have here the mentioned in this order the

16 622nd Motorised Brigade. Witness, looking at the document at the head,

17 the header and the format and the signature, is that an authentic

18 document?

19 A. Yes, at least according to what I can see here.

20 Q. And Major General Spiro Nikolic, was he the commander of the 1st

21 Operational Group Command, and where was this group command?

22 A. Yes, that was the command at Samarica.

23 Q. Mr. Milosevic, during cross-examination, put to you that you

24 forced Colonel Trbojevic to effect mobilisation in Gracac and Donji Lapac

25 and to expel all Croats from Gracac. You have already addressed the

Page 14096

1 mobilisation of volunteers for the 1st Light Brigade, and we would not

2 have to comment on this any more. But my question is were Croats expelled

3 from Gracac, and if so, did you order this, or who?

4 A. From the Gracac region, the Croats were expelled, yes, during the

5 combat and fighting with the 1st Partizan Brigade and previously through

6 the operations led by Frenki Simatovic, and Mile Martic.

7 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness repeat the last phrase.

8 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:

9 Q. Could you repeat the last phrase. The interpreters didn't hear

10 you.

11 A. Operations led by Milan Martic, and before the 1st Partizan

12 Brigade went into operation to deblock the warehouses in Svetilok [phoen],

13 and in the Gracac area, the Croatian village of Lovinac they did go into

14 operation. Frenki, or Franjo Simatovic as he was known in Gracac, and

15 Milan Martic with mortars -- with a mortar unit. They were the first to

16 open fire on the village of Lovinac, and thus expel the Croats from the

17 Gracac area, municipality.

18 Q. Were Croatian villages including Lovinac set on fire? That's what

19 you discussed with Mr. Milosevic. Were they set on fire and who did it?

20 A. Yes. The villages were set on fire. They were looted, and this

21 was done by those structures, the structures that attacked them.

22 Q. And which structures did attack them? Is that what you just

23 mentioned, Frenki?

24 A. Yes. Right.

25 Q. In relation to Kijevo, Mr. Milosevic questioned to you and put to

Page 14097

1 you that there was no coordination between General Mladic and the Martic

2 police. And I would like to put to you a document.

3 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: The document which is also not yet an

4 exhibit. And it is --

5 JUDGE MAY: Do you want the last one exhibited or not, Ms.

6 Uertz-Retzlaff?

7 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes, please.

8 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be marked Prosecutor's

9 Exhibit 352, tab 173.

10 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: And the next exhibit that I would like to be

11 exhibited is the 16th Session of the Assembly of the Serbian People in

12 Bosnia-Herzegovina held in Banja Luka on the 12th of May, 1992.

13 JUDGE MAY: What is this?

14 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: It is an --

15 JUDGE MAY: It's an enormous bundle of paper.

16 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes, and I only want to discuss with the

17 witness page 46 of the English, of the translation, and page 35 of the

18 Serbian version. It's just about Kijevo and what Mr. Mladic himself on

19 this session said about Kijevo. It's 37, page 37 [sic], and there's just

20 one quote.

21 Q. And Witness, for you, it's marked. And it is Mr. Mladic speaking,

22 General Mladic speaking, about what happened in Kijevo, and he says the

23 following: "The Knin Corps was successful because under a single command

24 in the zone of the Corps were the JNA, the Territorial Defence forces, and

25 Martic's police. Isn't that right, Martic? And because he --

Page 14098

1 JUDGE ROBINSON: Is it marked in the English at page 46?

2 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Page 47.

3 JUDGE ROBINSON: I thought you said 46.

4 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Sorry, page 47.

5 Q. Okay. And I continue: "And because he and I, I call him and say,

6 give me 40 policemen here at Kijevo, and you took part in the fighting,

7 isn't that right, Milan? And we did what we had planned, and we planned

8 -- and we will have artillery here, and this artillery acts."

9 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honours, from the whole document, you

10 can see that also Mr. Milan Martic is present during the Assembly meeting

11 in Banja Luka. And so General Mladic refers to him.

12 Q. Witness, were you aware that such an Assembly meeting took place

13 in Banja Luka?

14 A. I heard about it.

15 Q. And did this quote from General Mladic, did it actually reflect

16 what happened in Kijevo?

17 A. Yes, it did.

18 Q. Both in your -- I want to move now to another chapter.

19 JUDGE MAY: Exhibit this document.

20 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this will be Prosecutor's

21 Exhibit 352, tab 174.

22 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:

23 Q. Witness, both in your examination-in-chief and while questioned by

24 Mr. Milosevic you spoke about the appointment of the TO main staff in

25 October and November 1991 and the arrival of the officers Maksic, Kasum,

Page 14099

1 and Vuletic in Knin. And Mr. Milosevic put to you that those officers

2 actually volunteered to serve in the TO. And I would like to know from

3 you when they came, when they came to Knin, did they continue to be

4 members of the JNA, or did they quit their service in the JNA?

5 A. They were on the payroll of the JNA, or rather, they were in the

6 JNA.

7 Q. And did they transfer back to the JNA or VJ at a later point in

8 time?

9 A. They went back to the army of Yugoslavia. They were transferred

10 there.

11 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: With the help of the usher in this relation,

12 I would like to put to the witness another document. And it is an order.

13 It's an order by Gojko Krstic, the chief of the personnel administration

14 of the VJ headquarters of the 22nd April, 1992, addressed to the TO of the

15 RSK on the deployment of 72 officers.

16 Q. And, Witness, when you look at the position, there is -- there are

17 72 people listed in this document. And on position 1, you see Kasum

18 Dusan, and on position 5 you see Aleksandar Vuletic. Are these the people

19 that arrived, and are they still on the JNA members, or rather VJ?

20 A. Yes, those are the two people.

21 Q. And looking at the document at the format, including the header

22 and the person who signs it, is this an authentic document?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. And Major General Gojko Krstic, in which administration was he

25 chief? Do you know which administration of the VJ it is?

Page 14100

1 A. Personnel administration.

2 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: I would like to have this exhibited.

3 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this will be Prosecutor's

4 Exhibit 352, tab 175.

5 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:

6 Q. In relation to this matter, I also would like to have to the

7 witness the Exhibit -- a new exhibit as well.

8 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, Your Honours.

9 JUDGE MAY: Yes.

10 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] This previous document, I'd like

11 to indicate in it that it is not signed by Gojko Krstic. The signature

12 here is by somebody who says that he is a sergeant first class who is

13 signing, and not the signature of Major General Gojko Krstic. I don't see

14 Gojko Krstic's signature there, so I don't know whether the witness says

15 he recognises the signature of the sergeant first class. He can't

16 recognise the signature of General Gojko Krstic because he hasn't signed

17 his name there.

18 JUDGE MAY: We'll take note of that, Mr. Tapuskovic.

19 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes, but the witness didn't say he identifies

20 the...

21 The next document is a list of military staff of the VJ

22 temporarily deployed in the RSK TO submitted by General Torbica, commander

23 of the RSK headquarters, to Colonel Medakovic of the VJ personnel

24 administration of the 19th October, 1991.

25 Q. And looking at the document, can you comment on its authenticity?

Page 14101

1 A. Yes, it is authentic. Milan Torbica was indeed the commander.

2 Q. If you look at the first person listed, it is Milan Torbica; and

3 on the first page, the 15th person listed is Dusan Kasum; and on page 3,

4 under the units in Kordun we have the first person listed as Cedomir

5 Bulat, whom you had mentioned previously as a JNA commander; and listed

6 under Lika on page 7 is Milan Suput, the person that you also mentioned

7 previously.

8 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Can that be exhibited.

9 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this will be Prosecutor's Exhibit

10 352, tab 176.

11 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:

12 Q. Witness, in relation to Colonel Djujic, my question would be, was

13 he also, despite his position in the TO, was he paid by the JNA?

14 A. General Djujic, I don't know exactly.

15 Q. In relation to General Mrksic, Mr. Milosevic questioned you about

16 his origin. And my question to you is despite the fact that General

17 Mrksic had family roots in the RSK, before he was appointed RSK army

18 commander, was he in the VJ, and did he continue to be a VJ officer? Do

19 you know?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. In relation to the Kertes intercept, the intercept Braco-Radovan

22 Karadzic, it's tab 28 of Exhibit 352, Mr. Milosevic put to you that the

23 Vojvodina was the bread basket of the former Yugoslavia, and that you

24 cannot conclude that they were speaking about anything else than food and

25 deliveries of medicine. My question is: Was Mihajlo Kertes, whom you

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Page 14103

1 described as the member of the MUP, Serbia, involved in eight deliveries

2 of humanitarian character? Do you know whether he ever dealt with such

3 deliveries?

4 A. I don't know about that.

5 Q. When you received humanitarian aid, who would usually organise

6 that?

7 A. It would come in through different channels, through

8 individuals --

9 THE INTERPRETER: Institutions, not channels. Interpreters'

10 correction.

11 A. -- in different ways.

12 Q. Would the MUP Serbia be involved in it, in these kind of

13 deliveries?

14 A. No.

15 Q. Given the date of the intercept, that's June 1991, did you in the

16 Krajina receive medicine, food, and blankets from Vojvodina? Do you know

17 that?

18 A. I don't remember.

19 JUDGE MAY: Can we move from there, for the record, it should be

20 noted it's not Exhibit 352. The Registry point out it's Exhibit 353, tab

21 28.

22 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes, that's correct. I'm sorry, then, I

23 misspoke.

24 Q. In relation to other -- Mr. Tapuskovic actually put to you that in

25 relation to intercepts in July and August 1991 when Mr. Karadzic and Mr.

Page 14104

1 Milosevic spoke about steps to be taken and plans, he said that at that

2 time, Slovenia and Croatia were already independent and therefore why

3 should they speak about plans. My question to you is at that time, was

4 there a moratorium agreed upon so that Slovenia and Croatia postpone their

5 declaration of independence until October?

6 A. That's right. It was the Brioni agreement with the

7 representatives of the European Community, and the moratorium held true

8 for three months.

9 Q. In relation to the Mirkovci oil wells, you said to a question of

10 Mr. Milosevic that oil was produced in Mirkovci and then processed in

11 Pancevo. Pancevo, is that in Serbia near Belgrade?

12 A. Yes, that's right.

13 Q. Who was in charge of the Pancevo refinery? Do you know that?

14 A. I don't know exactly who was the manager. It was a state-owned or

15 socially owned company, oil refinery.

16 Q. Of Serbia?

17 A. That's right.

18 Q. You mentioned that quotas of the processed oil for RSK and RS

19 existed. Who decided about the quotas?

20 A. As far as I know, Mikelic, Stanisic, or rather, the DB and

21 Mikelic.

22 Q. And that is the dispute they had you referred to during your

23 testimony about the quotas?

24 A. That's right.

25 Q. Mr. Milosevic put to you in relation to the army, the involvement

Page 14105

1 of the JNA in Croatia, he put to you that in relation to the involvement

2 of the JNA in Croatia, the JNA intervened only for two matters, that is,

3 to separate the clashing parties, and to deblock their own barracks. Is

4 this a proper description of their conduct in the Serb-controlled regions,

5 in the SAOs?

6 A. The JNA intervened in the first place in order to deploy in the

7 SAO regions, and then beyond them, and to keep that territory in the state

8 that was being created by Milosevic.

9 Q. Was the JNA in summer 1991 a neutral force that protected both the

10 Serbs and the Croats equally, or did it side with one side?

11 A. It was on the Serb side; that is, on the side of Milosevic.

12 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honours, I see my half hour is over.

13 JUDGE MAY: Are you asking for a little longer?

14 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: No.

15 JUDGE MAY: You aren't. Good. Thank you very much.

16 Mr. Babic, that does conclude your evidence. Thank you for coming

17 to the International Tribunal to give it. You are free to go now.

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

19 [The witness withdrew]

20 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honours, there are two technical matters

21 left open. Two exhibits that Mr. Milosevic wanted to tender were marked

22 for identification, and it's, first of all, the list, the list with the

23 5.000 names. And the problem that the Prosecution has with this list, it

24 is actually the following: You cannot see from the list who produced it,

25 when, and on which basis, what is the foundation of this list. And I

Page 14106

1 think it should be only marked for identification until this foundation is

2 laid.

3 JUDGE MAY: Yes, we'll certainly do that.

4 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: And in relation to the book, I have to say

5 that also the Prosecution would like to tender in the course of this trial

6 a few books without the author being present. And I would say if

7 Mr. Milosevic would accept that, too, we are willing to accept this book

8 as well. But it would be -- we wouldn't do it without any discussion on

9 this matter.

10 JUDGE MAY: I think we have doubts about books because of what

11 they contain and the difficulties of saying what status they should have.

12 It may be convenient if we mark it for identification, and at a suitable

13 time, when you have the books that you have in mind, we can perhaps look

14 at them all together, apply the same principles to them all.

15 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes, Your Honours. That's convenient.

16 MR. NICE: Our next witness has protection, and accordingly, may

17 we go into closed session briefly. And when we have gone into closed

18 session, there's a couple of short administration matters that I'd like to

19 raise as well.

20 [Private session]

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 14107

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Page 14111

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7 [Open session]

8 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.

9 MR. NICE: May I explain, now that we're in open session, that

10 this witness is Witness C-025, who has already taken the solemn

11 declaration. And although I think the witness has yet to look at this

12 particular map, may I invite him please to be shown on the overhead

13 projector page 23 of our atlas, Exhibit 336. And it's the right-hand

14 page, and it's the top left-hand half of the right-hand page, please.

15 That's perfect. Thank you very much. Little bit to the left. A bit

16 further to the left. Perfect. Thank you.

17 Q. Witness C-025, you're looking at a map with which you may not be

18 familiar, having prepared to give evidence with a different map. But look

19 at this map, please. Does this map show the area of Baranja? Do we see

20 it to be bordered at the north by the boundary with Hungary; to the east

21 by the boundary with Serbia marked substantially by the Danube River; and

22 to the south through Osijek by the Drava River?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. At the material time with which we are concerned, when the

25 boundary with Hungary was closed, were there two bridges passing into

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Page 14113

1 Serbia on the east, one at Batina in the north, and the other one at Erdut

2 immediately east of Osijek to the south of this area of Baranja?

3 A. Yes, but not in Baranja. Erdut is not in the area of Baranja.

4 Q. Thank you. Was there at one stage a bridge at Osijek? Did it

5 become destroyed? If so, when?

6 A. Could you please clarify the question. Across which river?

7 Because Osijek had a bridge across the Drava River.

8 Q. Yes, across that river.

9 A. There was a bridge. It was destroyed by the Croatian police or

10 army sometime in the summer of 1991.

11 Q. Paragraph 3: Before the conflict, C-025, was the multi-ethnic SDP

12 popular in Baranja?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Did the SDS party grow in influence over time, and did that match

15 in any way the growth of the HDZ on the Croatian side?

16 MR. NICE: Could the usher just leave the map on the overhead

17 projector. Thank you very much.

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Was this area visited by any radical Serbian politicians; and if

20 so, can you name them?

21 A. Among the radical politicians, there was Vojislav Seselj who came,

22 and Mr. Paroski would also come.

23 Q. What, if any, influence or effect did their visits have on

24 interethnic relations?

25 A. The very purpose of their visit was national awakening among the

Page 14114

1 Serbian people in Baranja.

2 Q. Did that have any effect on the non-Serbs in the area?

3 A. At that very point in time, that is, during the visits themselves,

4 not so much. But later on, during the conflict, yes.

5 Q. By the first half of August 1991, what measure of control did

6 Serbs have over the area of Baranja?

7 A. Most of Baranja was in the hands of the Serbs. A village in the

8 immediate vicinity of Osijek, Bilje, was still not under Serb control.

9 Q. Was there a meeting of the Serb Territorial Defence in Jagodnjak,

10 which we can see south of Beli Manastir and north-west of Osijek?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Did you learn of what happened at that meeting; and if so, what

13 was the rank or position, but do not name the person, the rank or position

14 of the person who informed you?

15 A. I learned about that meeting from the commander of the local staff

16 of which I, too, was a member. The meeting was held in Jagodnjak.

17 Representatives of all TO staffs from Baranja and representatives of the

18 SDS attended that meeting.

19 Q. What was the discussion at the meeting? What influence, if any,

20 did the political party the SDS have at the meeting?

21 A. The meeting was linked to the organisation of the attack on the

22 village of Bilje. So it was of an operative military nature, whereas

23 representatives of the SDS, that is, two representatives of the top

24 leadership of that party, attended the meeting purely to get information

25 and to familiarise themselves with the operation and to assist in the

Page 14115

1 organisation as sufficient men needed to be recruited to participate in

2 the operation.

3 Q. Okay. We'll find Bilje on the map just a little north of Osijek.

4 At the time of this meeting, could you estimate what percentage of

5 local Territorial Defence commanders were members of the SDS party?

6 A. Percentage-wise, perhaps around 80 per cent of the staff

7 commanders were in the SDS party.

8 Q. I want to turn to another topic, Crisis Staffs. But before I do

9 so, in summary, please, the ethnic composition of Baranja before the

10 conflict and the ethnic composition by estimation by mid-1991, please.

11 A. Baranja is a multi-ethnic region with three ethnicities

12 represented, the Croatian, Serbian, and Hungarian having roughly an equal

13 share. After the outbreak of the conflict, this ratio was changed in

14 favour of the Serbs, which means that the non-Serbs left Baranja.

15 Q. Would you be in a position to estimate the percentage of the

16 population that was Serb by that time?

17 A. As the non-Serbs left Baranja, so the Serbs from the Osijek area

18 came in to Baranja so that the percentage of Serbs -- there were 30 per

19 cent to begin with. But the percentage increased more and more

20 afterwards.

21 Q. The Crisis Staffs, the Chamber may be familiar with this, but in

22 case they are not, a word from you about them. Did Crisis Staffs have a

23 peacetime and proper function? If so, what was it?

24 A. The Crisis Staffs were set up in peacetime, and their task was to

25 give assistance to the population and citizens in case of elemental

Page 14116

1 disasters such as floods, droughts, et cetera. So to assist the

2 population in jeopardy.

3 Q. By the time of and in the conflict, did the SDS have any say or

4 influence over the appointment of presidents of local Crisis Staffs?

5 A. No.

6 Q. I may come back to that. But let's move on to this: As non-Serbs

7 were leaving the area, did decisions have to be made about their real

8 estate and other property? If so, who dealt with it?

9 A. Yes. The property that was left behind was placed at the

10 disposal, or rather taken over by the Crisis Staffs, and the procedure for

11 this was as follows: The immovables were sealed and the property was

12 listed, recorded.

13 Q. How was it allocated, and were there incoming Serbs from other

14 parts of Croatia who had to be accommodated?

15 A. Yes. That same property, the property that had been sealed and

16 listed, was given to other Serbs from Croatia who came in to the area.

17 Both individually and in organised fashion.

18 Q. Did this influx of Serbs from elsewhere and the allocation of

19 property to them result in any consequences or anxieties for the non-Serbs

20 remaining in the area?

21 A. The greater influx of Serbs from Croatia took place towards the

22 end of 1991. Western Slavonia, that is, from Western Slavonia, the Serbs

23 were coming in to Baranja. And as I said, they were accommodated in the

24 houses that had been left empty and facilities. There were villages in

25 which these Serbs, Serb refugees, became the majority, the majority

Page 14117

1 population. And that is where the problems arose with the long-standing

2 locals, non-Serbs, who had remained in those places. Usually they were

3 elderly persons whose children had left and gone to Croatia and they had

4 stayed on to look after the property.

5 Q. Insofar as those people suffered any problems, whether of

6 harassment or worse, did the local Serb authorities take any steps to

7 protect them or to control such harassment or whatever?

8 A. For the first few months, no, they did not. The first few months

9 in which these sort of clashes occurred, violence was tolerated.

10 Q. Turning now to the Territorial Defence and very briefly, as the

11 ethnic composition changed, was there a change in the chain of command or

12 the effective chain of command of the Territorial Defence for Baranja?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Was it originally responsive to authorities in Zagreb? Did that

15 position change?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Did it indeed cease to become responsive to Zagreb; and if so, to

18 whom was it responsive thereafter?

19 A. The Territorial Defence of Baranja, on its territory, received a

20 superior command, and that was the JNA.

21 Q. Was there any pattern of replacement of local Territorial Defence

22 commanders on political grounds?

23 A. Well, the pattern was that the most suitable individual would be

24 looked for to implement the policy. It wasn't essential whether they had

25 any previous military knowledge or education; it was purely based on

Page 14118

1 political rating.

2 Q. And political acceptability being judged by what approach to the

3 problem? What was required of these military commanders by the political

4 leadership?

5 A. Talking about the local commanders, the commanders of the local TO

6 staffs, which meant that the basic prerequisite was for the person to be a

7 Serb or rather a member of the SDS.

8 Q. In the course of the conflict generally, was war activity in

9 Baranja itself very limited, and if so can you tell the learned Judges at

10 which sites there was real fighting, site or sites?

11 A. Well, there was real fighting on two occasions in the Baranja

12 region. First, the first battle was fought over the place called Bilje,

13 which is where the Serbs attacked in order to take control of the village

14 of Bilje. And this took place at the end of August 1991.

15 At the beginning of 1992, however, the Croatian army launched a

16 breakthrough operation on the Baranja territory along the axis and in the

17 direction of the village of Torjanci, which was the second battle that

18 took place in Baranja, along with a few other incidents and attempted

19 attacks on border huts along the border north-west of Baranja, in the area

20 -- or rather, towards the Hungarian border and the Drava River.

21 MR. NICE: Your Honours, Torjanci is just visible on the overhead

22 projector because it's on the fold of the page, and it's immediately to

23 the left of Petrovo Selo, top, left-hand corner of the area we're

24 concerned with.

25 As always, it's in the fold of the map. Places always are.

Page 14119

1 Q. Apart from those incidents of fighting, Witness C-025, was there

2 any sporadic or regular looting of property in this area?

3 A. There was looting of property, yes. At the beginning, it was more

4 intense and it lessened afterwards as the situation calmed down and as the

5 property was listed. The looting lost its strength.

6 Q. What part, if any, did local Territorial Defence commanders play

7 in the looting?

8 A. There were individual cases where the commanders were involved

9 because they had at their disposal the means of transport which, under

10 those circumstances, was vital. I'm talking about trucks and similar

11 vehicles. So that when the first front lines were taken, in the villages

12 where they were accommodated, in the houses and property that had been

13 left behind when the people had left, they would take it away, take that

14 property away.

15 Q. Can I deal now with the degree to which local Serbs in the Baranja

16 area were armed. Was there a pattern of local Serbs obtaining weapons?

17 If so, when and from whom?

18 A. Yes. That's right. Arming systematically started when the

19 Plitvice Lakes events took place, and the occurrences in Borovo Selo,

20 which means sometime in May 1991 onwards. And illegally, through illegal

21 transports, weapons were brought into the village of Jagodnjak, and then

22 further distribution of weapons was conducted through the members of the

23 SDS, and it was distributed in the other places.

24 MR. NICE: The Chamber can find Jagodnjak north-west of Osijek and

25 effectively due south of Beli Manastir.

Page 14120

1 Q. Did you yourself, Witness C-025, obtain a weapon? If so, from

2 what category of person? Don't be specific as to any location.

3 A. I received it from a member of the SDS. I was invited to go to

4 his home and fetch the weapon.

5 Q. When you went there, did you see any other weapons? If so, what

6 types of weapons did you see?

7 A. Yes, I did see weapons. Usually infantry-type weapons with a few

8 hand-held Zolja-type rocket launchers.

9 Q. From where did you understand those weapons to have come?

10 A. Apart from those rocket launchers, all the other weapons were out

11 of date, outdated weapons. That is to say, weapons that had been

12 manufactured at some previous date from some military stockpiles. They

13 weren't up-to-date state-of-the-art infantry weapons; they were

14 old-fashioned mostly.

15 Q. If not from Baranja itself, from which region or state had this

16 collection of weapons come, to your understanding?

17 A. It came from Yugoslavia, or rather, from Serbia.

18 Q. I'll return to paragraph 14, if and when we next go into private

19 session.

20 Paragraph 15: By the end of July 1991, was there any JNA presence

21 in the Baranja area? If so, where?

22 A. Yes, there was. The JNA was present in two locations. It was

23 permanently stationed -- there was a unit permanently stationed in Beli

24 Manastir, and another unit on the bridge between Baranja and Serbia, or

25 rather, in the village of Batina; on the bridge itself and up above the

Page 14121

1 village as a protection to the bridge.

2 Q. The unit based in Beli Manastir, what sort of unit was that and

3 where did it come from?

4 A. That was a unit which provided security along the state border

5 towards the Republic of Hungary.

6 Q. Do you know where the -- what sort of unit was it? Was it a

7 mechanised brigade or something different?

8 A. It was an infantry unit, but when the conflict broke out, it was

9 reinforced with some armoured personnel carriers and so on.

10 Q. And from where had they come? Do you know?

11 A. They had come in from Yugoslavia.

12 Q. By "Yugoslavia," do you mean Serbia?

13 A. Yes, I mean Serbia, that's right. At that time, to all intents

14 and purposes, the country was still Yugoslavia.

15 Q. At the end of September 1991, was the local Serb Territorial

16 Defence commander a man Borivoje Dobrokes, or Dobrokes?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Just yes or no, did you discover or see him to be assisted by

19 officers from outside Baranja? If so, how many, give us their rank and

20 origins.

21 A. Yes, I did. There were officers from the Yugoslav army, or rather

22 the JNA as it was at the time. And they dealt with organisational

23 problems for the TO staff and headquarters in Baranja itself. They were

24 high-ranking officers, and their rank was colonel.

25 Q. From which town had they come?

Page 14122

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Page 14123

1 A. I know that one of them was from Belgrade and that he was a

2 lecturer at one of the high military schools in Belgrade.

3 Q. Following the Vance Plan and the withdrawal of the JNA from

4 Baranja, were any JNA or Serbian-origin officers left in the area?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Did they serve in any sense or way with the local Serb Territorial

7 Defence?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Did they have any other connection with Baranja itself?

10 A. Well, perhaps a small portion of it did, either family ties or

11 others. But most of them did not have any connection.

12 Q. We've now dealt with various component parts of the way of life as

13 affected by the conflict. Could you in a few sentences, for the learned

14 Judges, help us with what life was like. You've told us about the two

15 areas of real conflict. Was life normal? Did businesses go on? Did

16 farming get done throughout the period of the conflict, or not?

17 A. As for life at that time in Baranja, we couldn't say that life was

18 normal because of the circumstances themselves. War was looming, and it

19 was autumn. Baranja is an agricultural area, a farming area. So it was a

20 time of crop collection. And the conflict escalated at that time so that

21 this made things rather difficult and the crops were taken in late. And

22 it was not done properly. And this was later reflected on the situation

23 in the whole region. Supplies were only possible through the bridge in

24 Batina. That was the only physical link with Serbia and the other

25 territories, and that is where goods came and went from mostly.

Page 14124

1 Q. Water and electricity, what was their availability?

2 A. As for electricity, the lines went towards Croatia. A compromise

3 was struck between the TO staff in Baranja and the Croatian side so that

4 electrical power could come in. And they promised not to attack the

5 economic facilities or touch the economic facilities, those that were in

6 the reach of the JNA or Serbian army.

7 Q. And finally, a couple of homey as it were examples, with the

8 change of ethnic composition, would people still be able to meet on a

9 multi-ethnic basis in public places like bars, or would there be any

10 change in behaviour? And socially, did people change their behaviour so

11 far as dealing with other ethnicities is concerned?

12 A. Now, whether we can say generally speaking that this took place,

13 well, we could, but that depended on the environment itself. And as we

14 said that Baranja was a multi-ethnic area, in the areas in which the Serbs

15 had become the vast majority, situations of that type did arise from time

16 to time. But in the other areas where the population remained mixed, this

17 was not as evident. There was not so much evidence of polarisation on an

18 ethnic basis.

19 MR. NICE: May we go into private session for paragraphs 14 and 18

20 to 20.

21 [Private session]

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

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21 [Open session]

22 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session.

23 MR. NICE:

24 Q. In the second half of 1991, was there a pattern of non-Serbs in

25 Baranja being arrested? If so, in what circumstances and for what

Page 14132

1 reasons?

2 A. At the beginning of the conflict, arrests were very frequent.

3 There were no special criteria or rules in that respect. People --

4 non-Serbs were mostly arrested for various reasons, among others, their

5 wealth or their affiliation with the HDZ, or because of certain unsettled

6 accounts from the past of a legal nature or purely personal nature.

7 Anyone who carried weapons would arrest others. And then towards the end

8 of September and the beginning of October, as time went on, these arrests

9 were reduced. Actually, a state -- the rule of law was established in the

10 area.

11 Q. Until the return to that rule of law, where were these people

12 detained? How were they treated?

13 A. The arrested people were taken to a Detention Centre in the SUP

14 building in Beli Manastir where more or less all of them were mistreated

15 physically and mentally. And then from that Detention Centre, they were

16 sent to Dalj or Borovo Selo to be exchanged for captured persons on the

17 Croatian side.

18 Q. That exchange, where it occurred, would have involved passage over

19 one or other of the bridges at Batina or Erdut. Would that be correct?

20 A. The question isn't quite clear to me. Exchange? There were never

21 exchanges on any of those bridges.

22 Q. Very well. My error. You've spoken of the exchange of these

23 people. In the course of the exchange, would they have had to pass over

24 one or other of those bridges in transports?

25 A. During the transport from Beli Manastir to Dalj or Borovo Selo, at

Page 14133

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Page 14134

1 Batina, at the Batina bridge, they had to leave Baranja, and then to

2 enter the eastern parts of the territory of the Republic of Srpska

3 Krajina and on to Dalj and Borovo Selo. They had to cross the bridge

4 twice at Erdut the second time.

5 Q. At each of those bridges, were there representatives of Yugoslavia

6 or Serbia who would have been in a position to see the transports and to

7 discover what was on the transports?

8 A. In view of the fact that both bridges were protected on the

9 Krajina side, by the Krajina police, and on the Yugoslav side, by the

10 Yugoslav police, which also controlled the crossing of each persons. So I

11 think that they were able to see what was going on.

12 Q. Approximately how many people, to your knowledge, were arrested

13 and transferred or intended to be transferred in that way?

14 A. According to my information, which is not too precise, about 50 to

15 80 people were arrested and transported for the purpose of exchange during

16 that period.

17 Q. Of those people, 50 to 80, were there any who were subsequently

18 not accounted for and not seen again?

19 A. Yes. Quite a large number of the people intended to be exchanged

20 were never exchanged.

21 Q. Did you obtain information later as to what happened to them?

22 A. Later we learned that those people were executed. Or rather, some

23 were thrown into the Danube River; some were buried in mass graves.

24 Q. And finally on this topic, what was the particular vehicle or type

25 of vehicle in which they were transported?

Page 14135

1 A. The vehicle was adjusted -- it was really used for the transport

2 of forestry workers, like a lorry, which instead of a tarpaulin had a kind

3 of container like a minibus, something like that.

4 MR. NICE: May we go into private session for the last time to

5 deal with matters between paragraphs 23 and 28.

6 [Private session]

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18 [Open session]

19 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session.

20 MR. NICE: May we have a map, please, which is much like the map

21 we have at the moment but this is one that the witness can mark. And it

22 will be... Thank you very much. Exhibit 326, tab 12.

23 JUDGE KWON: I think we need to exhibit it first.

24 THE REGISTRAR: That's the correct tab, Your Honours.

25 MR. NICE:

Page 14143

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Page 14144

1 Q. If you can take a pen, please, on this map because we can't mark

2 -- a bit further up, please. That's fine, thank you very much.

3 You've referred to a place called Tikves. Is that also something

4 connected to somewhere called Tito's castle?

5 A. The residence, yes.

6 Q. Can you just mark on this map roughly where it is. And also I

7 think there's a national park of which this is a part.

8 A. [Marks]

9 Q. And that's the area of Tikves, is it?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. In that area, what did you see of an anti-terrorism unit?

12 A. That unit was in Baranja on two occasions, twice; when the

13 conflict broke out and sometime in 1995 as well. It was always located in

14 -- within the compound of this residence of Tito's.

15 Q. On the first occasion -- and you haven't given the year, but on

16 the first occasion, what was it doing, apparently?

17 A. When this unit turned up, or rather, the first contacts with the

18 unit, were in the building itself, the MUP building in Beli Manastir.

19 That was the first time that I saw the members of that particular unit,

20 and they were wearing the red berets and different types of uniform,

21 different to the ones we would see in our area most commonly. Some of

22 them slept in the MUP building in Beli Manastir itself because there are

23 dormitories in the building. And some of them would spend the night there

24 and they would come into our office for a cup of coffee or tea or

25 whatever. And when we talked to them, we learned why they were there, why

Page 14145

1 they had arrived.

2 In the Beli Manastir town itself at that time, certain groups of

3 individuals terrorised the populace, if I can put it that way. There were

4 problems that arose with respect to the division of the property that had

5 been left behind; facilities, coffeeshops, pastry shops, et cetera. And

6 this Red Beret group intervened several times over the next few days, and

7 it shamed the local heavy men. They felt threatened with the arrival,

8 with the advent of this unit, and how they were going about their business

9 in Beli Manastir itself. It put to shame these thugs and bandits, local

10 ones.

11 Q. And where had this group of men wearing red berets apparently come

12 from?

13 A. They had come from Yugoslavia.

14 Q. When in Tito's residence or castle, how secure or sealed was that

15 location?

16 A. Because of the specific features of the property itself, it lies

17 in a physical area of forest, several hundred hectares. There are

18 entrance gates or ramps which it is easy to control. And these units did

19 control the area and permitted entry or banned entry into the property.

20 Q. Two other details about these troops: With what weapons were they

21 equipped and what method of interpersonal communication did they have?

22 What sort of radios and so on?

23 A. They had automatic rifles. That was standard. However, what was

24 specific was that the rifle wasn't worn on a belt across the shoulder, but

25 it was carried in the person's hand. And they also had communication

Page 14146

1 devices, Motorolas, et cetera, to be able to communicate amongst

2 themselves, which was rather -- which only the TO and JNA -- which was

3 very rather in TO and JNA units at that time.

4 Q. The second appearance of this group or men similarly attired was

5 in 1995. What did they do then? Where did you first encounter them?

6 A. Well, in that particular year, they tried to sort of reeducate the

7 people, if I can put it that way. They engaged in terror, intimidating

8 the population. Because the Serbs had also left Baranja. Now, to prevent

9 this from going on in the future, that unit sowed terror amongst the

10 population, and they wanted the people to calm down, to stay put, and to

11 train the young men who were of military age and who had not undergone

12 military training. So there were training centres for soldiers. And

13 there was another activity that the unit engaged in, and that was to

14 legalise different vehicles, passenger vehicles, heavy duty vehicles.

15 That means to do all the paperwork because those vehicles had arrived into

16 the area through unlawful means. And so they did all the paperwork to

17 make them -- to legalise them. And then they left the territory.

18 Individuals -- there was a racketeering going on where extortions were

19 made from the rich well-to-do Serbs in the area. They were blackmailed.

20 Q. Was there a Colonel Vasilje Mijovic, who was involved?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Exactly what did he do?

23 A. He was the direct commander of the unit. The unit's immediate

24 commander.

25 Q. Did the unit have anything to do with local criminals?

Page 14147

1 A. Yes, it did.

2 Q. Well, in particular?

3 A. In particular, they tried to have the better-trained criminals

4 work under them. So there were professionals for different things, like,

5 for example, for stolen vehicles. This man Zeljko, nicknamed Gavro, was

6 in change of them. Then there was Predrag Radetic, nicknamed Brada or

7 "beard." There were weapons, professionals.

8 Q. You've touched on this already, but just to complete this part of

9 your testimony, was there a transfer of property, as well as a seizing of

10 property, was there a transfer of property out of the Baranja area; and

11 if so, what part did these Red Berets have to play in that?

12 A. There was transfer of property both private and what was known as

13 socially owned property. At one point in time, the Red Berets were the

14 ones who controlled this going and coming of property and persons at the

15 Batina bridge. And they had their own checkpoints that they set up on the

16 communication lines along the roads running into Batina.

17 Q. There was in fact one other question that I ought to have got by

18 way of detail. Did Colonel Mijovic establish two training centres? If

19 so, where were they?

20 A. Yes, he did set up a training centre for young soldiers in the

21 Baranja Petrovo Selo area and in the Knezevi Vinogradi.

22 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone please, Mr. Nice.

23 MR. NICE: Thank you, I'm sorry. The first can be seen towards

24 the top left of the map on the overhead projector at the moment, and

25 Knezevi can also be seen pretty well above and to the left of the blue

Page 14148

1 mark.

2 One exhibit for this witness to deal with. May we have a look at

3 it, please.

4 Your Honour, it's a document that I hope to produce formally

5 through another witness, and therefore I invite this witness's comment

6 upon it. If the usher could be good enough to show the -- display the

7 original, first of all, on the overhead projector, that is, the original

8 in Cyrillic so that we can see what it is. The report page, which is

9 about three pages from -- four pages from the back, just look at that, see

10 what it is or what it appears to be. It's headed "Explanation" and it's

11 called "Abuse of positions by members of the anti-terrorist operations."

12 And if you now, please, Mr. Usher, detach the original and hand that to

13 the witness and place the English version on the overhead projector. And

14 I'll just read it, or some of it, and ask for comment.

15 Q. Witness C-025, this document in English reads, and you can follow

16 it in the original: "The attached documentation shows some of the

17 abuses on the part of the commander of the ATD, Colonel Mijovic, and other

18 officers in smuggling, resale and taking of cars from Baranja."

19 Next paragraph: "Through our sources, we have obtained access to

20 a part of the documentation indicating and proving the illegal

21 registration of vehicles most frequently stolen in European countries and

22 brought to Baranja where their papers were legalised in something as an

23 authorised service. There is no information in the safes about previous

24 owners."

25 And then next paragraph: "Based on talks with a source, Mijovic

Page 14149

1 has so far taken away 25 to 27 vehicles."

2 Next paragraph but one: "Besides this through his man, a member

3 of his unit whom they called Brada, or 'beard', Mijovic twice seriously

4 threatened the head of the car registration service not to stick his nose

5 into the papers too much. The man went to Mijovic's for treatment and is

6 very frightened."

7 And then it goes on to make further allegations in general. You

8 needn't look at it in detail, you've seen the document in preparation.

9 Does the matter recorded here fit with, or not, your own experience of

10 what this unit was doing?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Thank you very much.

13 MR. NICE: Your Honour, may that be exhibited. It's promised to

14 be established in due course.

15 JUDGE MAY: Mark it for identification. Get the next exhibit

16 number.

17 THE REGISTRAR: It will be Prosecutor's Exhibit 357, marked for

18 identification.

19 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Milosevic.

20 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I do not have the document. May I

21 be given a copy.

22 MR. NICE: Sorry it didn't find its way to the accused already.

23 JUDGE MAY: It's at the bottom of your package of documents you

24 got. But have another one.

25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, only if it was handed over

Page 14150

1 this morning, but I don't think so.

2 MR. NICE:

3 Q. Finally, paragraph 34, were you aware, Witness C-025, of killings

4 in the region by men dressed in the uniform of milicija?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Were those killings investigated? Did anything ever happen to the

7 perpetrators?

8 A. The perpetrators were never punished. I can't say 100 per cent

9 that nobody was held accountable. The police did go to conduct

10 on-the-crime-site investigations, and all the operations necessary in

11 proceedings running up to bringing charges against the perpetrators.

12 MR. NICE: Your Honour, I'm not going to trouble with paragraph

13 35, although should anybody want to ask the witness about it, I would ask

14 that it be done in closed session, for obvious reasons. In case there was

15 an error or similar as a result of the way I asked a question, can I just

16 go back to paragraph 8 on page 2.

17 Q. Remember, Witness C-025, we were talking about Crisis Staffs at an

18 earlier stage, and I asked you about the appointment of the presidents of

19 Crisis Staffs. Thinking back to that period of time, to your

20 recollection, did the SDS party regularly or from time to time take any

21 part in appointing the leadership of the Crisis Staffs?

22 A. This is how it was: When the conflicts broke out, the commanders

23 of the Crisis Staffs were in those posts, according to the statutes of the

24 local communities. When the conflict escalated or with the passage of

25 time, and as the situation in Baranja changed, so did proportionately the

Page 14151

1 influence wielded by the SDS party itself in all segments, and among

2 others, this applied to the nomination and appointment of members to the

3 Crisis Staffs, and they themselves would elect their president, or rather,

4 their commander.

5 Q. Thank you, Witness C-025.

6 MR. NICE: That's all I ask.

7 JUDGE KWON: Then, Mr. Witness, why did you say previously that

8 SDS had no influence over Crisis Staff? You remember the question asked

9 by Mr. Nice, and you said no. Why was that?

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, because I consider that we have

11 two periods; the period prior to the breakout of the conflict and the

12 period after the conflict had broken out, because the Crisis Staffs

13 existed in peacetime before the war, as they did afterwards.

14 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.

15 JUDGE MAY: Yes. The registrar.

16 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, the marked map, the Prosecutor's

17 Exhibit 326, tab 12, the marked map will be tab 12.C-025.

18 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Milosevic.

19 Cross-examined by Mr. Milosevic:

20 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. C-025, is it true that you were given

21 instructions as to the way you should testify here in The Hague?

22 A. I don't understand the question. I received in writing a piece of

23 paper as to the way one testifies. It's in the witness room, how one

24 should behave here. I don't understand your question. What kind of

25 instructions are you referring to?

Page 14152

1 Q. Let me clarify my question. Apart from receiving instructions

2 regarding behaviour in the courtroom, you're telling us that you did not

3 receive any other instructions about the way you should testify here. Is

4 that right?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Very well. And is it true that you had previous contact with

7 representatives of POA, or the counter-intelligence agency from Zagreb?

8 Do you know anything about that?

9 A. No.

10 Q. And do you know that the man you contacted -- his name is

11 Snajder.

12 A. No, I don't know anyone by that name.

13 Q. You don't know Snajder from the counter-intelligence agency of

14 Croatia?

15 A. No.

16 Q. Do you know his assistant, Vatroslav Vrdoljak?

17 A. No.

18 Q. So you didn't meet with him either?

19 A. No.

20 Q. Were there any conversations in which an operative of the centre

21 of this counter-intelligence agency of theirs, that is, the security

22 service of Osijek, Milenko Pekic and Josip N - so he's from your area -

23 you never had any contact with him? You never saw him?

24 A. I do know Pekic.

25 Q. Who do you know?

Page 14153

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Page 14154

1 A. I know Pekic.

2 Q. Only Pekic.

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. You don't know Josip.

5 A. No.

6 Q. And was this conversation over your preparations for testifying in

7 The Hague?

8 A. Where? What do you mean? Where was this conversation?

9 Q. There was a conversation?

10 A. I'm asking you where. Can you be more specific.

11 Q. Do you assume there is information about that and tapes of those

12 conversations? You probably don't know that.

13 A. No.

14 Q. Then please answer the following questions with precision. Is it

15 true that on Wednesday, the 23rd of October, 2002, you received a

16 telephone call by -- from Milenko Pekic who made an appointment with you

17 for the next day at 7.45, that you should meet near the centre for the

18 counter-intelligence agency in Osijek because you needed to go to Zagreb

19 for a meeting with the bosses of this agency to discuss your coming to The

20 Hague? Is it true that he phoned -- that Pekic Milenko phoned you on the

21 23rd of October, made an appointment with you for the next day, and from

22 there, you were to go to Zagreb?

23 A. No.

24 Q. As in those days, the plan was for you to go to The Hague at the

25 beginning of November. Is it true that he told you that you had to report

Page 14155

1 to the OTP on the 6th of November, 2002, and that you would be staying

2 there until the 11th of November, 2002?

3 A. No.

4 Q. No, fine. Very well. Who asked Pekic to do this and who asked

5 some influence to be brought to bear on you, we'll come to that later. Is

6 it true that on Thursday, on the 24th of October at the appointed time, in

7 front of the centre of the security service, now called the

8 counter-intelligence agency, you met with Pekic and a certain Josip, on

9 the 24th of October, 2002? Please be very precise and try and refresh

10 your memory.

11 A. I meet Mr. Pekic very frequently because we go fishing together.

12 As for Mr. Josip, no.

13 Q. And did you meet this Pekic that you meet often on the 24th of

14 October in front of the centre where he works in Osijek?

15 A. No.

16 Q. You meet often, but you're sure that you didn't meet on that

17 particular occasion?

18 A. Because I don't go to that building. We meet because we both have

19 boats tied close to one another.

20 Q. Very well. And did you go to Zagreb in an official vehicle, a

21 Golf IV vehicle, with Zagreb license plates, and that during the trip, you

22 were told that in Zagreb you would be talking to the bosses and that these

23 would be good people and that you were free to ask them anything you want

24 and that you should not be cautious about anything, that you can talk to

25 them freely? Do you remember that conversation?

Page 14156

1 A. No.

2 Q. And is it true that upon arriving in Zagreb, you went to the

3 brewery called Medvedgrad not far from the Vatroslav Lisinski concert

4 hall, where two persons were waiting for you?

5 A. No. I went to Sesvete, to a motel to spend the night there.

6 Q. So you went to Sesvete to a motel there. What its name?

7 A. Antunovic. There's a petrol station and a motel right next to one

8 another.

9 Q. Were two people waiting for you there?

10 A. No.

11 Q. Well, why did you go to that motel in Sesvete?

12 A. To spend the night there for the trip to come here because I had

13 an early flight.

14 Q. And is it true that this person who travelled with you introduced

15 you to his boss and said that his name was Snajder, and then to his

16 assistant who introduced himself by the name of Vrdoljak?

17 A. No, I don't know them.

18 Q. So you didn't meet with them?

19 A. No.

20 Q. And is it true that after a brief introduction, Snajder addressed

21 you and thanked you for agreeing to testify and for your overall efforts

22 and said that he was aware of your work and the assistance you were giving

23 the service?

24 A. I don't know anything about any such meeting.

25 Q. And do you know that you are here under oath to tell the truth?

Page 14157

1 A. Yes, but I don't know those people you are referring to.

2 Q. And is it true that on that occasion, this boss told you

3 that he was aware of the problems you had at work, but that you should

4 forget those problems because they wouldn't be repeated?

5 A. I have to say no once again.

6 Q. So you didn't talk to anyone about this?

7 A. Those people that you are mentioning, I don't know.

8 Q. Well who did you talk to?

9 A. When?

10 Q. On that occasion in that motel and on your way to Zagreb and when

11 you spoke about the preparations for coming here.

12 A. I didn't talk to anyone linked to preparations and to coming

13 here.

14 Q. And is it true that later on, Snajder said that he had read your

15 whole statement given to the investigators and that he would suggest that

16 should there be a chance that you should emphasise that the preparations

17 for the aggression started as early as 1989 by the JNA against the

18 Republic of Croatia?

19 A. I don't know what you're talking about.

20 Q. Was a suggestion made to you to speak about certain operations,

21 Proboj 1, 2, 3, et cetera? Did you talk about these things with anyone at

22 all?

23 A. No.

24 Q. Do you remember that there was one linked to Slovenia?

25 A. I'm not aware of those operations that you are mentioning.

Page 14158

1 Q. Very well. And did anyone suggest to you that you should say that

2 it was quite clear some time ago that the crisis could not be resolved by

3 peaceful means and that the JNA started arming and contacting Serb

4 extremists and party leaders long ago? Was that suggestion made to you or

5 not? Just say yes or no.

6 A. I don't know what you're talking about. No one made any

7 suggestions of any kind to me.

8 Q. And did they tell you that as a witness, you will not be talking

9 about specific cases but that you should highlight the chain of command,

10 that is, give examples how Mijovic's unit was under some sort of

11 administration in Belgrade and received orders from it? Were you told to

12 say that?

13 A. No. No one talked to me in connection with my preparations.

14 Q. And who drove you to the Zagreb airport?

15 A. I went in my own car. In my own car.

16 Q. You drove there yourself?

17 A. Yes, and it's parked at the airport.

18 Q. Very well. And Pekic didn't go with you?

19 A. No.

20 Q. Was this on the 6th of November?

21 A. I don't know the exact date now. But anyway, I drove in my van,

22 my own car.

23 Q. And they didn't leave you their telephone numbers or e-mail

24 address or anything for contact?

25 A. I do have Mr. Pekic's telephone number. But that is on a private

Page 14159

1 basis.

2 Q. So privately, you do mix, you do socialise. Is that right?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. And what is his position?

5 A. I don't know exactly his position. I know the work he does.

6 Q. And what kind of work does he do?

7 A. He's working in the former state security; that is, SZU.

8 Q. So in the current state security as well, but it's no longer

9 called that. It's called the counter-intelligence agency?

10 A. Yes. SZU with the new name that it now has.

11 Q. And were you told then that Pekic had been given instructions to

12 provide counter-intelligence protection for you, and he also gave

13 instructions to give misinformation should your identity be disclosed?

14 A. I don't know anything about that.

15 Q. And that that misinformation should be made public through the

16 media and through radio Glas Slavonije. Did he tell you anything along

17 those lines?

18 A. No.

19 Q. Then how, or rather let me correct myself. In what way do they

20 take part in providing protective measures? You're a protected witness,

21 and you're living over there. So how does the service we're referring to

22 participate in providing protective measures for you? Is it just through

23 Pekic or do you have contacts with any other people in connection with

24 those protective measures?

25 MR. NICE: Your Honours I'm very concerned about this line of

Page 14160

1 cross-examination bearing in mind the witness is corrected.

2 JUDGE MAY: Yes, doesn't seem to be of any relevance anyway. So

3 move on to another topic, Mr. Milosevic.

4 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May, I think that with regard to

5 credibility of this witness, it is indeed relevant whether he had first

6 been instructed by the Croatian intelligence service regarding his

7 testimony.

8 JUDGE MAY: He's denied that. Now what you can't ask, because it

9 may compromise his own security, is details of that security. It's not

10 relevant. What you can ask is what connection, if any, he has with that

11 state security service. You can ask him that if you want.

12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well.

13 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

14 Q. And did they tell you when you left the country your passport

15 would not be stamped so there wouldn't be any traces, and if they do stamp

16 your passport here that you would have to have it exchanged when you got

17 back?

18 A. No. And there is a stamp in my passport.

19 Q. Very well. But let me ask you quite precisely: Is it true that

20 most of the information you have given in your testimony is actually

21 information of the Croatian service, especially the information regarding

22 some criminal offences of which you had mostly heard about, as you said in

23 the examination-in-chief?

24 A. No. The information comes from my own life, my own memory, and

25 from my operational work during that period.

Page 14161

1 Q. Yes. But you were not able directly to collect such information

2 through your direct work in the area.

3 A. These are all persons from my surroundings, most of whom I knew.

4 Q. Very well. So you're claiming in your statement on page 2, last

5 paragraph, that the SDS influenced the activities of the TO in Baranja.

6 Were you a member of the SDS?

7 A. No.

8 Q. Then how can you assert that when you were not a member or a

9 member of the SDS leadership? How do you know to what extent they were

10 influential over certain institutions?

11 A. I knew people who were in the SDS that I collaborated with

12 closely.

13 Q. So you heard this from people in the SDS?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And was there any other party in Beli Manastir?

16 A. In that period - in 1991 - no, later yes.

17 Q. Well, in 1990, there was the League of Communists of Croatia as

18 far as I know, and later it was renamed the SDP. And most of the

19 population voted for the League of Communists of Croatia in 1990. Isn't

20 that right?

21 A. Yes, yes.

22 Q. And later, was the socialist party formed in Beli Manastir?

23 A. I'm not sure about that. I don't remember.

24 (redacted)

25 A. There were attempts for parties to develop, but the SDS took a

Page 14162

1 decision that all this should be stopped until better times, that the SDS

2 should remain as the only party. And then later on others could be

3 formed.

4 Q. Very well. Let us now go on --

5 MR. NICE: Your Honour, the question at 11.12.06.08 transgresses

6 the rule about closed session. We've got to be very careful in this

7 case.

8 JUDGE MAY: Yes.

9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I don't know why this mystery,

10 Mr. May, because this witness is not saying anything that he himself saw.

11 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

12 Q. So very well. The SDS had the greatest influence. And evidence

13 on that is on your second page, the meeting of local staff of the TO at

14 Jagodnjak at which two from the SDS leadership from present. When there

15 was a discussion about the Bilje operation. Is it true that you were not

16 present at that meeting?

17 A. Yes, that's true.

18 Q. Since you were not present at that meeting, how do you know what

19 was discussed and who was present?

20 A. Because the commander of my staff was there. And I learned about

21 it from him, talking to him.

22 Q. So the commander of your staff briefed you about everything that

23 happened at that meeting where they were discussing some sort of an

24 operation?

25 A. About the most important points, that one of my task and that of

Page 14163

1 him and some other people was to try and find 40 men to take part in that

2 operation.

3 Q. Very well. And on the basis of what did you come to the

4 conclusion that apart from the presence of those two SDS officials, that

5 they were giving instructions to the TO commanders what they should do, or

6 were they among themselves agreeing on what should be done to strengthen

7 the defence of Baranja?

8 A. I didn't hear about the operative part of the meeting, nor was

9 that of any interest to me. That is actually what they agreed on at the

10 meeting.

11 Q. So you don't know what competencies were determined at that

12 meeting; you're just saying that two SDS officials were present at the

13 meeting?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. So you don't know what their role was, nor whether they gave

16 instructions for that operation or not?

17 A. Yes, that's right.

18 Q. Very well. Thank you.

19 Tell me, please, in connection with this allegation that you made

20 again on page 2, last paragraph, regarding the conflict between the TO and

21 the Croatian paramilitary grouping in Bilje, in August 1991, is it true

22 that Bilje was a stronghold of the MUP and the National Guards Corps, the

23 Zengas, ZNGs, in those days?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. This concentration of the guards, the Croatian guards, and the

Page 14164

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Page 14165

1 MUPs, was it a threat to the population in the area?

2 A. I'm not sure you could say that outside the village of Bilje since

3 there was a kind of separation line already around the village of Bilje.

4 Q. So what they were doing, they did on their side of that separation

5 line?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. So they didn't breakthrough your line of separation?

8 A. No.

9 Q. So there wasn't a single case of that?

10 A. There may have been sporadic exchanges of fire, but no

11 breakthrough or any serious operations.

12 Q. What does exchange of fire mean? Did they open fire at you?

13 A. Yes, there was shooting from both sides.

14 Q. And is it correct to be more specific about this event that it was

15 there a conflict occurred between local Serbs and Croats in Bilje?

16 A. I'm not sure I know what you're referring to.

17 Q. In August 1991, was there an attack by the Croatian National

18 Guards Corps and the MUP on the Serbs in Bilje or not?

19 A. There were attacks, but several Serbs entered the village of

20 Bilje. And as they recognised one another, their identities were

21 disclosed, and then fire was opened. And two or three Serbs were killed

22 in Bilje.

23 Q. I see, two Serbs were killed in Bilje.

24 A. Yes, because they entered from other villages to enter Bilje, and

25 they knew that the separation line was there and that the Zengas and the

Page 14166

1 MUP were in Bilje.

2 Q. I see. So they knew they were there, and because these two Serbs

3 entered the village, they were killed there?

4 A. Yes, but they entered armed. One was even wearing a MUP uniform,

5 that is, the uniform of the Croatian police, and he was a Serb.

6 Q. And those two, did they go there to attack Bilje?

7 A. I don't know what their intention was. They went there on their

8 own initiative. They didn't report to anyone.

9 Q. Why did the two of them go to Bilje? Surely those two didn't go

10 to attack Bilje when there was such a concentration of MUP and Zengas in

11 Bilje. They didn't expect, I suppose, anyone to shoot at them.

12 A. Possibly because they were wearing this uniform they didn't expect

13 to be recognised.

14 Q. They wore uniforms just as the others were wearing uniforms, they

15 were working in the police, were they not?

16 A. Yes, but they came to Serb territory.

17 Q. No you said they came to Croatian territory?

18 A. Let me put it this way: They were staying in a territory over

19 which the Serbs had control, and then they entered a territory under

20 Croatian control.

21 Q. What were they by profession?

22 A. One was an inspector in the Croatian MUP, and the other one, I

23 don't know.

24 Q. He was a policeman?

25 A. I'm not sure. I know about this one.

Page 14167

1 Q. So you know about this one. And let's leave the other one aside,

2 that you're not sure about. But this one you know about was an inspector

3 in the Croatian MUP?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. And he was wearing the uniform of the Croatian MUP so he didn't

6 put on anybody else's uniform. He wore the uniform of the institution he

7 was employed in.

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. And he was killed because he was a Serb. Isn't that right? Or

10 because he attacked Bilje all on his own?

11 A. Before he attacked Bilje himself, he had left the Croatian MUP.

12 He had crossed over into the other territory.

13 Q. And then he attacked Bilje alone? I see. And did you hear that

14 on the 17th of August, 1991, Milos Zivanovic was killed in Bilje?

15 A. I'm not aware of that.

16 Q. You don't know anything about that?

17 A. No.

18 Q. How many Serbs were living in Bilje?

19 A. Well, maybe some 20 per cent.

20 Q. And how many would that be, 20 per cent Serbs in Bilje?

21 A. Well, Bilje has about 4 to 4 and a half thousand inhabitants.

22 Q. Fine. If that is the population, 20 per cent would be shall we

23 say 4.800. Is that right?

24 Did the Zengas and MUPs terrorise the Serbs?

25 A. Yes, most Serbs had left. Some did stay behind. But I can't be

Page 14168

1 more precise in telling you exactly the number of Serbs that stayed and

2 the number that fled.

3 Q. Why did they flee Bilje?

4 A. Why did the Croats flee from Baranja? Nobody was hurting them.

5 Q. I know that no one was hurting the Croats in Baranja. But just a

6 moment ago, I'm glad you have confirmed that. A moment ago you said that

7 where the environment was more or less purely Serb, there was more

8 demonstration against, and more chaotic, and where there was a mixed

9 population, the situation was -- the relationships were more tolerant. So

10 in mixed environments, people were not aggressive towards each other, and

11 they led a normal life.

12 A. Yes.

13 JUDGE MAY: The time has come for a break. We'll adjourn now for

14 20 minutes.

15 --- Recess taken at 12.16 p.m.

16 --- On resuming at 12.39 p.m.

17 JUDGE MAY: You have an hour and ten minutes, if you want it,

18 Mr. Milosevic, with this witness.

19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May, in the information which I

20 received for this witness, it said that the opposite side plans to

21 have -- to conduct its examination-in-chief for six hours. Now quite

22 suddenly, that examination-in-chief was radically reduced so that I have

23 many more questions than would be possible for me to put in the hour and

24 ten minutes you've just allotted me.

25 JUDGE MAY: Yes, well, you make a start, and if necessary, we'll

Page 14169

1 review the position at the end.

2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well. I shall continue

3 according to the notes I have made.

4 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

5 Q. Witness, you spoke about the Crisis Staffs. Is it true that the

6 existence of the Crisis Staffs was pursuant to the laws prevalent in

7 Yugoslavia at that time?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. And is it also true that the Crisis Staffs commanders were members

10 of the local government authorities, that is to say, as a rule, the

11 presidents of the executive councils of those municipalities would be

12 members of the Crisis Staff?

13 A. Are you asking before the conflict took place or after the

14 conflict.

15 Q. I am talking about how it was pursuant to the law and how the de

16 facto state was.

17 A. The presidents of the local communities as a rule were Crisis

18 Staff commanders.

19 Q. Well, did they continue to do later on, the presidents of the

20 local communities?

21 A. No, the beginning of August or rather the end of September, the

22 military and civilian functions were separated. Crisis Staffs for civil

23 matters were set up and Crisis Staffs for military matters were set up.

24 Q. And do you know that on the 17th of August, 1991, a meeting was

25 held of the Crisis Staff in Beli Manastir at which were present in

Page 14170

1 addition to the members of the Crisis Staff all the former presidents of

2 the Municipal Assembly of Beli Manastir and the former deputies and most

3 of them were Croats, deputies of the Croatian parliament?

4 A. No.

5 Q. All right. Do you happen to know that the kommandir, the MUP

6 commander, head, or chief, whatever you'd like to call him, in Beli

7 Manastir was Prdogut Ante, a Croat, and after the Crisis Staff meeting was

8 held on that same day, the 17th of August, in Beli Manastir, said quite

9 literally the following, I understood the contents of the meeting

10 differently, I expected you to give me permission to raze Jagodnjak to the

11 ground, and Jagodnjak is a fairly large Serbian village otherwise with

12 many Serb inhabitants. And he asked that he be allowed to raze it to the

13 ground, and he said he would be able to complete this within a space of 24

14 hours, that he had the strength and power to do that. Do you know

15 anything about that?

16 A. No, I do not know.

17 Q. And is it true that the command of the Crisis Staff in Beli

18 Manastir was Lazar Brnovic, who did not take up that position following

19 the chain of the Serbian Democratic Party but was nominated by the

20 official Croatian organs and he otherwise was of Montenegrin by ethnicity?

21 A. Yes, before the war, the TO municipality Crisis Staff.

22 Q. I see. The TO municipality Crisis Staff, you say. Very well.

23 Now, in view of the fact that you yourself dealt with the organisation of

24 the TO during the examination-in-chief, you also mentioned the

25 relationship with the JNA and with the JNA. Do you know that the Yugoslav

Page 14171

1 state presidency, following a proposal of the federal Secretariat for

2 National Defence, already in 1986 passed a decision to reform the command

3 of the army into the command of the military districts under whose command

4 was the TO in the district, on that territory?

5 A. No.

6 Q. So you don't know that that was done because during the mass

7 movement Croatia attempted to arm --

8 MR. NICE: [Previous interpretation continues] ... no point in

9 going on.

10 JUDGE MAY: No, I agree. Let's move on.

11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well.

12 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

13 Q. Now, do you know that the republican staffs of Territorial Defence

14 were subordinate to the federal Secretariat for National Defence?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. So the republican staffs of the Territorial Defence were not, by

17 the same token, under the competencies of the presidents of the Republics

18 or the governments of Republics, but they came under the federal

19 government and its institution the Secretariat for National Defence, isn't

20 that right?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Is it also right that the municipal Territorial Defence was

23 responsible to the Territorial Defence in Zagreb right up to the creation

24 of SAO Krajina, Baranja, and Western Srem?

25 A. Yes.

Page 14172

1 Q. And that republican staff was subordinated to the federal National

2 Defence Secretariat. Right?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. And is it also true that the weapons from the Beli Manastir

5 Territorial Defence staff was transferred to the barracks in Beli Manastir

6 for security purposes exclusively?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. You're talking about the Garrison, you mentioned the garrison, and

9 you were asked about the presence of the JNA and where the JNA had come

10 from, come to be there. Is it clear that the JNA didn't come from

11 anywhere because the JNA was on the territory as a regular army throughout

12 a period of 50 years?

13 A. I said in my presentation that there was a stationed unit of the

14 JNA in Beli Manastir, and that a portion that was not linked to Baranja

15 was in -- at the Batina bridge.

16 Q. So the Beli Manastir garrison was a border garrison that catered

17 to the border huts along the Yugoslav state borders between Yugoslavia and

18 Hungary. Isn't that right?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. And this was entrusted to the army to protect and defend because

21 there was a danger of the uncontrolled use of weapons on the part of the

22 local inhabitants. Isn't that right?

23 A. Probably.

24 Q. And do you know that at the beginning of 1990, there were attempts

25 to turn the TO of Croatia into a Croatian army?

Page 14173

1 A. Through the media, what I was able to learn that way.

2 Q. And do you know or did you hear about the fact that General

3 Spegelj, in his book "The Recollection of Soldiers" noted himself that in

4 Croatia what came to be understood was that the TO of Croatia was in fact

5 Croatian army?

6 A. I have not read the book, but I saw the tape linked to

7 Mr. Spegelj, the footage of that.

8 Q. All right. And do you remember that the idea to turn the TO of

9 Croatia into a Croatian army was not an original concept of those

10 present-day people, but at the beginning of the 1970s, the leaders of the

11 mass ^ epoch, the mass movement, endeavoured to form the youth units and

12 the republican organs would have all the power and authority over them. I

13 assume you know about that?

14 A. Well, I know something about that.

15 Q. And do you know that in those 1970s, the public prosecutor of the

16 Republic of Croatia proposed that any chauvinistic outbreaks --

17 MR. NICE: Your Honour, can I, while I'm on my feet, make this

18 point: The accused seems to think that because there was an estimate of

19 six hours at some stage, presumably based on the length of the witness

20 statement, that gives him some right to six hours. The entitlement of an

21 accused person is to cross-examine on the basis of the evidence in chief

22 prima facie. We would resist any suggestion that he's simply entitled to

23 a figure that was an original estimate. His cross-examination must be

24 responsive, broadly speaking, to the examination-in-chief.

25 JUDGE MAY: That's a matter for the Trial Chamber. This is an

Page 14174

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Page 14175

1 accused in person. He must be entitled to some latitude facing, as he is,

2 extremely serious charges. On the other hand, there is most certainly a

3 limit, as he knows, on the time which he will have available. It most

4 certainly won't be six hours. Try and finish in the time that we've

5 suggested, Mr. Milosevic.

6 I'll consult.

7 [Trial Chamber confers]

8 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Milosevic, we can sit until 2.00, and we'll give

9 you until then to deploy your cross-examination. So you should aim to

10 make your main points fairly early on to ensure that they are covered.

11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, Mr. May, it is very difficult

12 for me now at this juncture to restructure my questions while I'm

13 conducting the cross-examination itself.

14 JUDGE MAY: You do not -- don't be misled by any of the time

15 estimates which the Prosecution give. Sometimes they are out on the

16 grounds that they are far too short, and other times they are too long.

17 But move on. It would be helpful, rather than general questions, some of

18 which can be proved by evidence and some of which are matters which we've

19 heard about before, if you concentrated on the specific questions which

20 you can ask this witness which he's likely to know about of his own

21 knowledge.

22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well, Mr. May. Fine.

23 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

24 Q. Is it true that the main staff of the Territorial Defence of

25 Baranja had handed out weapons to the local TO units pursuant to the laws

Page 14176

1 that were in force at the time? And you have this on page 3, last

2 paragraph of your statement.

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. You mentioned the fact that individuals frequently looted and that

5 property was taken.

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Did the police take any steps to prevent this, to stop this, and

8 was it indeed halted?

9 A. Gradually, yes. At the very beginning of the conflict, it was

10 impossible to prevent this from happening. However, as time went by and

11 until the end of 1991, this was reduced to some legal frameworks and

12 perpetrators were prosecuted.

13 Q. So when the atmosphere was one of chaos at the very beginning of

14 the conflict, it wasn't possible for them to stop this, but then later

15 measures bore fruit and that unlawful acts were stopped. Is that right?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. And did you personally see anybody taking off somebody else's

18 property anywhere?

19 A. Yes, I did.

20 Q. What did you see, for example? Tell us.

21 A. Well, on several occasions, I saw furniture being taken away,

22 appliances, household appliances, and even tractors, sewing machines,

23 livestock.

24 Q. And where did the people take all this off to; home?

25 A. Yes, they took it to their own homes.

Page 14177

1 Q. This was the local population that did that, wasn't it?

2 A. Yes, the population, the inhabitants.

3 Q. All right. Is it true that in Baranja after the elections held in

4 1990, a referendum was organised at which most of the population voted for

5 the option that if Baranja proclaimed itself to be independent, that it

6 should remain within Yugoslavia nonetheless?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Is it true that none of you at the time spoke about any kind of

9 Greater Serbia; people wanted to live in Yugoslavia, isn't that right?

10 A. Yes, and we stated our views through the referendum.

11 Q. This was a multi-ethnic environment, and most of the population of

12 different ethnic groups reacted in that way?

13 A. Yes, the majority won the referendum.

14 Q. So not only the Serbs.

15 A. That's right, not only the Serbs.

16 Q. I'm now going to skip over a few questions which I don't feel are

17 indispensable, in view of the curtailed time that I have, although they

18 are all important questions, you said on page 3 of your statement,

19 paragraph 4, that after those first elections, the Serbs became afraid

20 that Croatia would proclaim its independence. Why were the Serbs afraid

21 of that independence on the part of Croatia?

22 A. Well, I don't know. It was a kind of popular opinion, opinion

23 held by the majority of Serbs. And I'm sure this has its historical

24 roots.

25 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, Your Honours, I

Page 14178

1 think it would be highly beneficial if Your Honours did have a copy of the

2 statement given to the investigators for the Prosecution because

3 Mr. Slobodan Milosevic has referred back to the statement several times.

4 It is dated the 10th of March, 2001. That was the date of the interview.

5 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

6 Q. Well, you said that there was some sort of fear. Tell me, did the

7 expulsion of the Serbs from the constitution of Croatia as a constituent

8 peoples in 1990 and the abolishment of the Cyrillic script, and schools

9 for Serb children, the discriminatory laws, and the series of events that

10 followed, were those reasons why the Serbs feared living in an independent

11 Croatia?

12 A. I think so, yes. But in view of the referendum, it wasn't only

13 the Serbs that took part in the referendum, I think that others shared

14 that opinion, too.

15 Q. Well, that's what we're talking about, it was precisely in that

16 multi-ethnic environment that we had great support for Yugoslavia, not

17 only the part of the Serbs but on the part of the Hungarians, Croats, and

18 other ethnicities living in the area. Isn't that right?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Do you happen to know that in only four months, June, July,

21 August, and September of 1990 in Croatia, over 10.000 Serbs were dismissed

22 from their jobs?

23 A. No, I don't know that.

24 Q. And do you know when the decision was made to set up the Croatian

25 National Guard Corps, and how this formation of the Croatian National

Page 14179

1 Guard Corps affected the general mood that prevailed amongst the

2 population, not only Serbs but all the inhabitants living in Baranja?

3 A. Well, I don't know the details about its establishment, but I

4 refer back to the referendum. I assume it was formed on the basis of some

5 sort of groundwork.

6 Q. All right. And is it true that the decision taken by the Croatian

7 leadership to import weapons from abroad illegally and to withdraw what

8 was in the hands of the police force with Serb police members, did this

9 affect the deterioration of the political situation in Croatia?

10 A. Possibly, yes. I don't really know.

11 Q. And is it true, do you happen to remember a decision taken by the

12 Yugoslav State Presidency at the beginning of January 1991 to disarm the

13 paramilitary units, among which the Croatian National Guard Corps was the

14 first, so-called Zengas, that was never put into practice and the Zengas

15 were never disarmed. But do you remember that decision?

16 A. Well I don't recall the decision but I do know that kind of topic,

17 this issue, was written about by the information media.

18 Q. And is it true that the HDZ policy became more radical as time

19 went by, and that the elements found their inspiration in the former

20 independent state of Croatia had come to the fore?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And do you know about Tudjman's statement that there would only be

23 5 per cent Serbs in Croatia in the final analysis?

24 A. Well, this was bandied about by the media.

25 Q. And was the fear that the population felt in Baranja precisely for

Page 14180

1 all these reasons the proclamation of independence, et cetera, was it the

2 reason for which the SAO Slavonia, Western Srem and Baranja was

3 proclaimed?

4 A. Quite possibly, but the decision was to remain within the

5 frameworks of Yugoslavia itself.

6 Q. And what about the proclamation of the region? Did it mean that

7 these regions de facto had separated and seceded from Croatia?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. And is it true that those regions had their own organs,

10 institutions, government, police force, army, et cetera?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And those regions were de facto and de jure regions outside

13 Serbia. I don't suppose that's in dispute?

14 A. That's right.

15 Q. Is it also true that in the Territorial Defence for Slavonia,

16 Baranja, and Western Srem, were only local inhabitants who actually lived

17 in the area, they were members of that body?

18 A. There were some volunteers too, from Vojvodina.

19 Q. Volunteers you say who had family ties?

20 A. Well, family ties or ties of friendship, ties of that kind.

21 Q. Well, you're just saying what I said a moment ago. You say it on

22 page 3, paragraph 2, of your statement, and in the last paragraph as well

23 of page 4, paragraphs 1, 2, and 3 of your statement you say precisely

24 that, that there were only locals living in the area.

25 A. Well, most of them, the vast majority were. All military able men

Page 14181

1 from the ages of 18 to 60 --

2 JUDGE MAY: [Previous interpretation continues] ... the statement.

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] According to the law in force at the

4 time all able-bodied men between 18 and 60 years of age responded to the

5 mobilisation call.

6 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. And do you know that on the 25th of August, 1991, there was a

11 session of pro-Yugoslav parties --

12 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Nice.

13 MR. NICE: The question at 13.02.53 transgresses the rule.

14 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Yes. Mr. Milosevic, don't ask questions like

15 that except in private session, please.

16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] This does not reveal the identity of

17 the witness, Mr. May. There's so many people here from the area.

18 JUDGE MAY: It may reveal where he comes from. Anything that's

19 liable to do that, you should be aware of.

20 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well.

21 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

22 Q. Do you know that on the 25th of August, there was a meeting of

23 pro-Yugoslav parties? This was their coordinating committee, with several

24 members of the staff of the TO of Baranja. Are you aware of that meeting

25 held on the 25th of August, 1991?

Page 14182

1 A. No, I don't remember.

2 Q. No?

3 A. I don't remember.

4 Q. And are you aware of a meeting at which a decision was taken on

5 the appointment of the executive council of Beli Manastir, the secretary

6 of the SUP, and various other appointments were confirmed for the

7 commanders of the TO in Baranja and agreement reached on the distribution

8 of positions, those responsible for civilian affairs, the TO towards the

9 border with Croatia, all these things were discussed at the meeting that

10 was held on that date? You don't know anything about that?

11 A. I don't remember that meeting, but I do remember when these

12 appointments were made.

13 Q. And do you know that on the 30th of August, there were talks

14 between representatives of the authorities, the SUP and the TO of Beli

15 Manastir and Valpovo, Valpovo which is in Croatia? And their main

16 options, the options of the meeting, were to create conditions of life

17 free of conflict, free of violence, the aim being to ensure conditions for

18 the peaceful life of all the inhabitants of the region. Do you remember

19 that?

20 A. No. I don't know about that meeting, but I assume in my earlier

21 testimony I did refer to something linked to electricity supply. And that

22 was linked to that meeting, I think. Should electricity be cut, a

23 countermeasure could be action against economic enterprises.

24 Q. And do you know that on the 30th of August, over Beli Manastir

25 radio, it was announced that all citizens who had sought refuge, and the

Page 14183

1 majority were Croats, could return to their homes and that they are free

2 to harvest their fields and gardens, that they can sow wheat normally, and

3 a special call was made to those from the Belje agricultural combine

4 because there was a lot of work to do on the fields. Do you remember

5 that?

6 A. No, I don't know. I didn't hear that report, though the situation

7 was such as to warrant such measures.

8 Q. And do you know that on that same day, that is, the 30th of

9 August, when over Beli Manastir radio, there was this call for the

10 refugees, Croatian refugees to return, that members of the Zengas opened

11 fire on the Serbian villages of Jagodnjak and Poljeman [phoen]?

12 A. There were frequent exchanges of fire. I can't tell you the exact

13 dates, but there were frequent exchanges of mortar fire in that area.

14 Q. And do you know that on that same day, a sabotage group of the

15 Zengas with 60-millimetre mortars and rifle grenades, and it was headed by

16 Stevo Kitak [phoen], a policeman, attacked the Jelen estate, that is, the

17 Djitica [phoen] plant, which is also known as Pustara?

18 A. There were several such sabotage actions, planting of trip mines,

19 and anti-armour mines, and they came too close to our positions because

20 the line itself was quite unusual, there was a no man's land covered with

21 thick woods and brush.

22 Q. And do you know that members of the Zengas on the 2nd of September

23 kidnapped Savo Sekanic, a Serb, a peasant from Jagodnjak, and that the

24 International Red Cross was informed about it?

25 A. Yes.

Page 14184

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Page 14185

1 Q. And do you know or had you heard that on the 3rd of September,

2 1991, from the Croatian leadership through Glavas, an order was issued for

3 the collective emigration of the Croats from Bilje but that only the men

4 of military age should stay behind. Do you remember that order of theirs?

5 A. No.

6 Q. Very well. Can we agree that in Baranja in general, there was

7 very little military activity?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. You mentioned in your examination-in-chief KOG. What is KOG,

10 K-O-G?

11 A. Counterintelligence group engaged in counterintelligence in the

12 field, and it may also cover civilians, because according to the law of

13 National Defence, all men of -- able-bodied men of military age are

14 subject to that law on defence and can be covered by KOG. The military

15 service was divided into operatives outside the barracks which were in

16 plainclothes and people in uniform in the barracks.

17 Q. Maybe I'm wrong, maybe I misheard you, please correct me if I

18 did. You mentioned that KOG armed the Serb population. Did you say that

19 or not?

20 A. The associates of KOG would receive truckloads of weapons. When

21 I say associates, those associates became associates after they were

22 armed. I knew who were the men who obtained weapons, but I didn't know

23 what they represented.

24 Q. And did you get weapons from that group that you mentioned?

25 A. No.

Page 14186

1 Q. And were you ever present when KOG armed anyone?

2 A. No, I wasn't present. Physically I was not present there.

3 Q. And you say that the counterintelligence group supervised the

4 reserve JNA force. What kind of supervision do you mean? You mention

5 this on page 41 but last paragraph in the sense of counterintelligence

6 protection, they were able to apply all methods, informative interviews,

7 technical methods and so on.

8 Q. So you mean that the service was collecting intelligence

9 information which is its normal work, isn't it?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. On page 4, you mentioned that somebody called Dragisa Radic,

12 Stojan Sekanic, and Damir Zuzic, Rajko Mrdja, all from the area. One is

13 from Darda, the other from Knezevo, the other from Batina,

14 from Beli Manastir, that they were collaborators of the KOG. Did you

15 personally see them engaged in any specific activities as part of that

16 collaboration? What is the grounds for you to say that?

17 A. Through subsequent work in the field, we would meet. Operatives

18 of the state security and operatives of KOG on the same assignments.

19 Q. And is it true that in June 1991, I will not mention the name of

20 the local inhabitant because this could reveal your identity or be

21 considered to reveal your identity, you received an M48 rifle, a rifle

22 that was no longer in use in the JNA. Is that right?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Was he an SDS activist?

25 A. Yes.

Page 14187

1 Q. Was he a leader?

2 A. No, because his professional duty was something else.

3 Q. Very well. You say that the JNA in June or July 1991 captured the

4 Batina bridge. And on the 25th or 26th of July, 1991, it captured Knezevi

5 Vinogradi, or took control of it. Is there any dispute that in the period

6 you're referring to, the SFRY was still in existence at the time the

7 president of the Presidency was even Stjepan Mesic? So what kind of

8 capture are you talking about? You mean that it controlled the bridge and

9 the area?

10 A. One could accept such a change of the wording.

11 Q. And is it true that the JNA came to the areas where there were

12 conflicts between Serbs and Croats, precisely those areas?

13 A. Could you clarify that question, please.

14 Q. Is it true that it came to the areas where there were clashes

15 between Serbs and Croats, in order to separate the two sides and to

16 prevent conflicts between them?

17 A. In Baranja, there was only one such example, though in Baranja,

18 there were virtually no conflicts during the takeover. The only conflict

19 was in Beli Manastir between MUP units and armed Serbs which was stopped

20 through the activity of armoured vehicles which didn't open fire but were

21 set in motion.

22 Q. I see. So the army started the vehicles in order to preempt a

23 conflict between the MUP of Croatia and the Serb territorials. It didn't

24 even open fire, but as soon as the vehicles appeared, things calmed down

25 and there were no conflicts. There were no other conflicts, were there?

Page 14188

1 A. No.

2 Q. I'm glad we've cleared that up. So what that means is the JNA did

3 not interfere in those conflicts but prevented them on both sides?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Very well. And do you know that on the 6th of September, 1991,

6 the inhabitants of Baranja formed two brigades and one artillery division

7 because they were dissatisfied with the failure of the JNA to engage? Is

8 that right or not?

9 A. I don't know about the date, but what you said is right, is true.

10 Q. And do you perhaps know - though this is not in Baranja itself,

11 that's why I'm asking you whether you may know, perhaps - that a JNA unit

12 was positioned in Borovo Selo on the 2nd of May, 1991, between the

13 clashing parties, virtually saved the Croatian police and paramilitary

14 groups from total defeat and much greater casualties that could have

15 occurred, that in that case, too, it acted to appease the tension and to

16 put a stop to mutual fighting.

17 A. Yes, it immediately stopped hostilities.

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 14189

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 MR. NICE: [Previous translation continues]...

5 JUDGE MAY: We'll go into closed session for this.

6 [Private session]

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 14190

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12 Pages 14190 to 14209 redacted private session.

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Page 14210

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 [Open session]

13 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're in open session.

14 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

15 Q. Since you mentioned that some Croatian families went missing from

16 your immediate vicinity, I should like to ask you whether you know that in

17 the course of 1990, Branimir Glovac, the Osijek Jupan, or "count," on

18 behalf of the HDZ, distributed in the municipalities of Slavonia very

19 powerful military explosive called Vitezit. And the Croatian press

20 reported about this, among others. Do you know anything about the blowing

21 up of Serb houses? Do you know that some people even changed their first

22 and last names, and do you know how many houses were blown up? Do you

23 know anything at all about those events?

24 A. Yes, I do have some knowledge linked to such events, ranging from

25 the blowing up of Serb houses, business premises owned by Serbs, the

Page 14211

1 political newspaper offices, et cetera. There were such events.

2 Q. Do you know exactly where they occurred?

3 A. In the area of Osijek. This was closer to me and I was more

4 familiar with the situation there.

5 Q. And are you familiar with the expression that was in use by -- I

6 don't know how else to call them but terrorists or extremists in Eastern

7 Slavonia, and members of these Ustasha formations which openly call

8 themselves Ustashas and carried the letter "U" on them? Had you ever

9 heard of them?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Yes or no.

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. You had heard about them. And do you know the expression they

14 used from that time and from that area, that the Serbs had floated down to

15 Serbia. Does that mean along the Danube?

16 A. In our case, along the Drava.

17 Q. Of how many cases had you heard?

18 A. I heard of some more prestigious Osijek doctors, physicians.

19 Maybe I heard of seven or eight such cases, of more prestigious Serbs in

20 Osijek.

21 Q. I see. So Serbs who were prestigious, who were not members of any

22 kind of militant structure or who could not be accused of any kind of

23 militant attitude were killed and thrown into the Drava?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Are you aware that only from the Beli Manastir municipality alone,

Page 14212

1 57 persons were killed and went missing in the period 1991 to 1993? I'm

2 talking only about Serbs now.

3 A. Are you talking about the municipality of Beli Manastir or Beli

4 Manastir itself?

5 Q. Municipality of Beli Manastir.

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. There is also data of Veritas. I suppose you had occasion to

8 see them?

9 A. No.

10 Q. And do you know that members of the Zengas, across the Hungarian

11 border, with the permission of the Hungarian authorities, crossed into

12 Baranja on two occasions, the first time on the 30th of September, 1991,

13 and the second time the 30th of November, 1991?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And what happened?

16 A. This is an area that we've already mentioned, around the village

17 of Torjanci which it was very difficult to control because of the swamp

18 land there. And the Croatian army, across Hungarian territory, crossed

19 over with the aim of taking control of the frontier posts in the area.

20 Q. And do you know that each and every one of them were captured

21 precisely by the Territorial Defence and then handed over via the JNA to

22 the Croatian side again? In other words, they were released, to return to

23 their homes unscathed?

24 A. Yes, I'm aware of that. They entered a mine field, and they

25 surrendered so as to avoid getting killed.

Page 14213

1 Q. But nobody got killed. Is that right?

2 A. No, no one did.

3 Q. Is that true?

4 A. Yes, it is true.

5 Q. And do you know that on the 30th of November, 1991, in the village

6 of Torjanci in Baranja, members of that same army, the National Guards

7 Corps, slaughtered a number of gypsies?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. What do you know about that event? This was also in Baranja?

10 A. I know that they entered, and these were mostly locals who had

11 left the village. They came back and spent the night in their own

12 village. And during the night, they killed some people among whom most

13 were non-Serbs. And again, there was an attempt to capture the border

14 post and to stop a lorry transporting bread to that border post and to use

15 that truck for that purpose, but they didn't succeed, though there were

16 casualties.

17 Q. So the Croatian forces killed 25 persons in the village of

18 Torjanci. Do you know that?

19 A. I'm not sure about the number, but there were victims. I think

20 that the number 25 occurred in another operation on the 3rd of April,

21 1992.

22 Q. That's precisely what I'm talking about. This is a second

23 operation. When they slit the throat of these gypsies, this was a

24 previous operation in the same region. And then on the 3rd of April,

25 1992, they again attacked the same area and killed 25 persons.

Page 14214

1 A. Yes, this time also they came through the territory of Hungary.

2 They used some anti-armour vehicles and came behind the back of the

3 separation lines.

4 Q. Are you aware of their killing Zeljko Negovanovic on the 21st of

5 August in the factory of cattle feed? He was working, he wasn't armed, he

6 was an ordinary worker there, and he was killed because he was a Serb.

7 A. I'm not aware of that particular detail.

8 Q. And do you know that in the police station yard in Darda, they

9 killed Milivoj Stojakovic on Saint Elias Day, on the 2nd of August, 1991?

10 A. No, I don't know about that.

11 Q. And do you know that in that period, an assassination attempt was

12 made at Ilija Djurkovic from Beli Manastir, who succumbed to his wounds on

13 the 5th of September, and Nedo Tomic was seriously wounded?

14 A. Nedo, a man. Yes, I do know about that. I'm aware of that

15 incident. And it provoked the Serbs to organise themselves in Karanac, in

16 Knezevi Vinogradi immediately after that incident, and the villages were

17 closed with checkpoints.

18 Q. And do you know that on the 7th of September, 1991, a sabotage

19 group of the National Guards mined the region around the Serb village of

20 Balma. It's a Serb village. And four members of the defence of Baranja

21 were killed, four TO members.

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Was that how it was?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And do you know that on the 14th of September, a sabotage group

Page 14215

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Page 14216

1 came to the Jelen agricultural estate and killed two unarmed workers on

2 the estate who were Serbs?

3 A. Yes, I do know of that.

4 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Milosevic, you can have five minutes more, until

5 10 past, and then you will have had much longer than the Prosecution, and

6 we shall bring your cross-examination to a close.

7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well, Mr. May. It is very

8 difficult for me to ask all the questions I would like to ask.

9 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

10 Q. But without enumerating, many of these events you know about.

11 People died from the constant onslaughts by the black-shirt groups of men,

12 the extremists. All those events are events you know about. Isn't that

13 right?

14 A. Yes, most of them.

15 Q. So throughout that time, while you were working, did the Serbs

16 ever attack any Croatian settlements or conduct crimes of this kind

17 against a village, against the inhabitants of a village, against workers,

18 citizens, or anybody else?

19 A. No. In that period of time, the Serbs were exclusively oriented

20 towards Defence, towards defending the lines taken, towards defending

21 Baranja.

22 Q. All right, fine. Then I need not question you any further on that

23 score.

24 I should just like to clarify one point, as our time is up and I

25 have many more questions to ask, but the collective answer to all the

Page 14217

1 questions, let's clear up one point, and that is concerning the document

2 that I looked for a moment ago and wasn't able to find amongst all my

3 documents. It is the document which speaks about the alleged abuse of a

4 position on the side of the anti-terrorist ATD and the SUP in Baranja.

5 This document is, in fact, titled "Explanation" and then it goes on to say

6 "Abuse of position by members of the ATD, anti-terrorist operations, and

7 the SUP, Secretariat of the Interior, in Baranja," and there is no

8 signature to the document. So I don't know what value this document has

9 at all.

10 And does it mean anything to you as a witness?

11 A. The document, as such, as a document, is one I saw for the first

12 time here. However, the events that are described in the document mean

13 something to me. I think that this is only a portion of the events that

14 have been described in this document, not everything that happened.

15 Q. All right. Tell me, please, as we noted a moment ago that the

16 situation there was calm and that the Serbs were just defending

17 themselves, protecting themselves, that there were no other - how shall I

18 put this? - no other incidents, so what has it got to do with the Serb

19 authorities at all, or with any conduct on the part of the organs and

20 institutions of Baranja, Eastern Slavonia and Western Srem, the fact that

21 somebody was stealing vehicles, for example, and selling those vehicles

22 elsewhere or engaging in any other activities of that kind? What has that

23 to do with any of the authorities in this trial and anything to do with

24 this trial here? In view of the job you had, I'm sure you know how much

25 the police of Serbia did to prevent all this happening, to prevent theft,

Page 14218

1 looting, that it confiscated vehicles if perpetrators were engaged in

2 unlawful import of such vehicles, that they had set up checkpoints and so

3 on.

4 Now, what has that got to do with our proceedings here and what we

5 are discussing?

6 JUDGE MAY: We must bring this to an end. We will allow the

7 witness to answer. It's not for him to answer what it has to do with the

8 proceedings, that's for us to decide because that's a question of

9 relevance. But you can deal with two questions:

10 Do you know any connection between this sort of activity, Witness

11 C-025, under various authorities there may have been, apart from Colonel

12 Mijovic, of course? You can answer that, if you would.

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, there was an interconnection

14 in view of the fact that the units of Colonel Mijovic was not linked along

15 the chain of command to the territory in which it was active, however

16 Colonel Mijovic did have an influence on the leadership of the then SUP in

17 Beli Manastir. Rather, they were the ones who carried out his orders.

18 JUDGE MAY: The other thing that was put is that efforts were made

19 to stop this kind of activity going on. Can you help on that or not?

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, there were. But all this went

21 on in bouts, in different periods. And it depended on what was going on

22 in the realm of politics. For example, there were some periods in which

23 this form of activity, when registration -- the re-registration of

24 vehicles was allowed, and there were periods when it was not allowed, this

25 attempt to register the vehicles without registration plates.

Page 14219

1 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

2 Q. Are you trying to say that the authorities in Serbia ever allowed

3 this take place?

4 A. I'm not talking about Serbia. I'm talking about Baranja, the

5 Baranja territory.

6 Q. All right. We've clarified that. One more question now: In your

7 statement on page 10, and you also spoke about this during the

8 examination-in-chief, (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 JUDGE MAY: Yes, go into private session. This is the last

13 question.

14 [Private session]

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

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21 (redacted)

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9 [Open session]

10 THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session.

11 JUDGE MAY: Yes, list of witnesses next, please. There is a list.

12 MR. NICE: The last witness list is I think still valid, save for

13 the fact it was made clear last week that Mr. Blewitt, even without his

14 medical problem, would be used as a -- is to come after witnesses coming

15 from outside --

16 JUDGE MAY: Perhaps you could just remind us the order we've got

17 them coming up.

18 MR. NICE: Yes, it would be Witness Laber next, followed by C --

19 yes, Poljanic is next.

20 JUDGE MAY: Laber, Poljanic and --

21 MR. NICE: If we get to it, I think it will be K-2.

22 JUDGE MAY: K-2. And Mr. Blewitt.

23 MR. NICE: Probably now not this week I should think because we've

24 only got until Wednesday.

25 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, if I may, with

Page 14222

1 respect to the cross-examination conducted by Mr. Slobodan Milosevic, in

2 case Mr. Nice in the event that Mr. Nice has no questions, then I will

3 refrain from asking my questions and not keep the witness any longer, on

4 condition that Mr. Nice has nothing further to ask the witness either.

5 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Nice, have you got any questions? I mean, we have

6 to keep the witness -- I'm afraid we have to.

7 MR. NICE: I have questions. I'm not sure about the propriety

8 about that.

9 JUDGE MAY: It's totally improper. But nonetheless, have you got

10 any questions?

11 MR. NICE: I do.

12 JUDGE MAY: You do. So that's the answer. You must come back,

13 I'm afraid, tomorrow morning but it won't be for very long, Witness C-025.

14 9.00 tomorrow morning, please.

15 [The witness stands down]

16 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned

17 at 2.16 p.m., to be reconvened on Tuesday,

18 the 10th day of December, 2002, at 9.00 a.m.

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