1 Thursday, 9 January 2003

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 [The witness entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 9.05 a.m.

6 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Nice.

7 MR. NICE: Your Honour, there is no real need, I think, to delay

8 matters -- any matters of administration at this stage. I'll say a few

9 things about administration perhaps later.

10 The witness before you has the advantage of protection. May he

11 take the solemn declaration?

12 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Let the witness take the declaration.

13 WITNESS: WITNESS K-2

14 [Witness answered through interpreter]

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

16 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

17 JUDGE MAY: Yes. If you'd like to take a seat.

18 Examined by Mr. Nice:

19 MR. NICE: The piece of paper bearing the witness's name is just

20 being prepared. It's being given to him in the form of the top of a

21 statement.

22 Q. Will you look, please, at this piece of paper and just confirm if

23 it be accurate that that is your real name. Just say "Yes" if it is so.

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. During these proceedings, you'll be known by the pseudonym K-2.

1 MR. NICE: May the piece of paper bearing his name be shown to the

2 accused and become an exhibit.

3 Your Honour, this witness, I should say, as with the following

4 witness, produces fairly straightforward evidence with no exhibits or, in

5 the case of the following witness, I think only a couple of exhibits. In

6 each case, the witness has gone through the summary in English on a

7 line-by-line basis and, therefore, knows that the summary -- or would be

8 in a position to say that the summary is accurate in case that becomes

9 relevant as a tool of abbreviating evidence.

10 K-2, first of all, I should ask him a few questions in closed

11 session because they might otherwise reveal his identity, and with the

12 Chamber's leave, may we go into closed session?

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6 [Open session]

7 MR. NICE:

8 Q. Witness K-2, when representatives visited -- representatives of

9 the Red Berets visited your school in April 1995, can you remember the

10 name of any of those who attended, any of the Red Berets who attended?

11 A. I remember one name; that is Radoslav Krsmanovic.

12 Q. Was he in charge of the group attending your school?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Did you subsequently discover what his position was in the group

15 and what his relationship was or position was in relation to Frenki

16 Simatovic?

17 A. Radoslav Krsmanovic was the commander of the unit, as deputy of

18 Frenki Simatovic.

19 Q. Did you and some other students from your school decide to join

20 the special forces known as the Red Berets in respect of which this visit

21 had been paid?

22 A. Yes.

23 MR. NICE: Your Honour, it may be convenient for chronological

24 reasons if we go to paragraph 8 and come back to paragraph 5.

25 Q. In the course of your time with that group, of which you'll tell

1 us in due course, did you discover whether the Red Berets had existed in

2 any form before 1995, and if so, where they were first trained?

3 A. According to the what the instructors were saying, I learnt that

4 the origins of the Red Berets date back to Knin, in the Alfa Centar in

5 Knin where the first training started.

6 Q. By whom had they first been trained?

7 A. I don't know the exact answer to that question, but as far as I

8 know, the training in the Alfa Centar was conducted by Captain Dragan.

9 Q. Where, according to what you were told, had they first been active

10 before 1995; in what area?

11 A. As far as what I learnt, they were active in Kosovo, which is an

12 area next to Sarajevo, and for a while they were also active in

13 Herzegovina in the surroundings of Mostar and Nevesinje.

14 Q. Paragraph 5. As a result of your accepting the invitation or

15 applying following the visit to your school, did you receive a written

16 decision making you a member of the state security service of the Serbian

17 MUP, and if so, when did that decision date?

18 A. I received the decision that I was a member of the state security,

19 but this occurred much later. As far as I can recollect, I joined the

20 unit in May, and in June or July, as far as I can recollect, we were given

21 written decisions saying that we were members of the state security.

22 Q. When, thereafter, was there official recognition of the JATD, or

23 units for anti-terrorist operations?

24 A. The units for anti-terrorist operations were legally recognised as

25 legal units of the MUP of Serbia in November or October 1996 at the

1 official opening of the camp at Kula when the name acquired its official

2 name as the unit for anti-terrorist operations of the state security

3 service.

4 Q. Rather than take time returning to that topic, who was present at

5 that meeting -- at that ceremony, rather? I think it's paragraph 19.

6 A. Commander Krsmanovic was present, Frenki Simatovic was present,

7 Jovica Stanisic, Captain Dragan, and Milan Martic were all present. And

8 there were also others persons whose names I don't know. Some were from

9 the army of Yugoslavia, and others from the state security service.

10 Q. And from what you discovered generally but also at that ceremony,

11 who was at the top of the management tree for this organisation?

12 A. The main person, that is our commander, was Frenki Simatovic, and

13 he came accompanied by Jovica Stanisic as the main chief.

14 Q. Throughout your time with this organisation, what support, if any,

15 what approval, if any, of your activities did the group have from the

16 government of Serbia, as you could judge it?

17 A. We had full support in the form of ammunition, uniforms, and all

18 other necessities and also the possibility to use camps.

19 Q. On the same topic, paragraph 7, was there an occasion where there

20 was a meeting with Simatovic and others where Simatovic said something

21 that indicated where authority was coming from?

22 A. This happened on one occasion. The whole unit had a meeting at

23 the camp in Lipovica, close to Belgrade. Present at the meeting was

24 Krsmanovic, Frenki Simatovic, and Rajo Bozovic, who said that our unit

25 must do whatever it was asked to do, that there was no possibility of us

1 saying that we cannot do something or that we do not wish to do something

2 and that for those reasons the doors of the president were open to us.

3 Q. And your understanding of the doors of the president were a

4 reference to whom or was a reference to whom?

5 A. As far as I was able to gather, there was only one president, and

6 it referred to Mr. Slobodan Milosevic, as far as I was able to conclude.

7 Q. Paragraph 6. Briefly, the structure of the state security service

8 of the Serbian MUP, was it divided into some five centres?

9 A. There were five main centres situated in Belgrade; Nis, Novi Sad,

10 Kragujevac, Kraljevo. After that, the state security service was divided

11 into departments, attaches, which were under the control of operative

12 officers who held control of a certain locality.

13 Q. That's probably enough detail for the time being. The reporting

14 chain of the group that came to be known as the Red Berets, was that a

15 normal reporting chain or was there anything special about it?

16 A. What was special about the Red Berets was, first of all, that as

17 members of the Red Berets, we're not allowed to talk about the unit,

18 especially not about the activities of that unit or, in fact, about its

19 very existence.

20 Q. And its reporting chain, did that fit within the general structure

21 of the Serbian MUP and the state security service or did it have a

22 separate reporting chain, as you understood it?

23 A. As far as I know, the only method of reporting was directly to

24 Krsmanovic, and Krsmanovic was accountable directly to Frenki, and then

25 how it went on from there, I do not know.

1 Q. Paragraph 9. You said you weren't allowed to talk about your

2 work. Was there a document you saw on one occasion dealing with the rules

3 and procedures of your unit?

4 A. Yes. There was the rules of procedure of the state security

5 service.

6 Q. Did you actually read it yourself on the occasion you saw it?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Can you give us some of the topics it covered reflecting some of

9 the functions your group was authorised or expected to perform? In

10 particular, functions that might be thought to affect or interfere with

11 ordinary civilian human rights.

12 A. In those rules, among other provisions, there was one regarding

13 the way in which activities had to be conducted, and in certain

14 circumstances, it was possible to read other people's mail, secret

15 listening in to conversations, and also trying to win over persons to work

16 for us. That is mostly -- that is most of what I can recollect just now

17 regarding the rules.

18 Q. Having dealt thus with some of the general knowledge you acquired

19 about your organisation, we'll return - paragraph 10 - briefly to the

20 chronology. In May or June of 1995, did you report for training, and to

21 which building did you go in Belgrade to report for training?

22 A. We had to report in front of the main MUP building in Belgrade.

23 Q. And you were some 30 people in number. Did you go to a makeshift

24 training camp in Pajzos in Eastern Slavonia where you were provided with

25 uniforms, rifle, knives, and so on, that camp being in an area between

1 Sarengrad and Bapska?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Was that camp near to a villa that had some historical importance

4 or significance?

5 A. That villa was within the camp compound. It was the former Tito

6 villa.

7 Q. Was that villa used when important people visited and stayed?

8 A. The villa was used exclusively for those purposes.

9 Q. Who was the commander of your unit?

10 A. In those days, it was -- actually, I can't remember or, rather, I

11 never knew his surname but his first name was Zvjezdan. Together with Mr.

12 Krsmanovic.

13 Q. He was also known as Zveki, I think.

14 A. Yes. Yes.

15 Q. Your own instructor was named?

16 A. Among other instructors, there was Milos Dukic.

17 Q. Known as Duka, I think.

18 A. Yes. Yes.

19 Q. Included in the people who visited the villa, can you list some of

20 the people you saw visiting there or learnt to be visiting there, please.

21 A. I saw Rajo Bozovic. I saw Radoslav Krsmanovic. I didn't see, but

22 I heard that another visitor was Frenki Simatovic.

23 Q. Did you have any contact there or see any visits there from

24 representatives of the RSK army?

25 A. Yes. This happened on several occasions, but I did not know the

1 name of the officer in question.

2 Q. What rank was he?

3 A. As far as I know, he was a general.

4 Q. Turning to training and to personnel, did you discover whether

5 those instructing you had particular types of backgrounds; in particular,

6 any criminal elements to their backgrounds?

7 A. On a couple of occasions when we had private conversations, we

8 heard, regarding a couple of them, that they did have a criminal

9 background, a criminal past.

10 Q. However, were there two trainers who seemed to have proper police

11 training and came to teach you about particular topics?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Where did they come from? What were they teaching you?

14 A. They came from one of the Red Beret camps at Batajnica, from the

15 airport at Batajnica, and they taught us the martial arts and combat in

16 general, such as the liquidation, silent liquidation, and other combat

17 skills.

18 Q. Silent liquidation by use of knives and things like that, is that

19 it? Wire and breaking of necks, that sort of thing?

20 A. Yes, that's right.

21 Q. When you got to Pajzos, were there already weapons for you?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. While there, did you see further supplies of weapons and

24 ammunition arriving? If so, in what sort of vehicle, and how was the

25 vehicle marked to indicate its origin?

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1 A. The supplies of weapons and ammunition were conducted on a regular

2 basis, and they would always come in with a truck with M602 number

3 plates. M always, and usually 602. That number was characteristic for

4 the state security centre. M602 were the licence plate numbers.

5 Q. This is the Serbian RDB, is it?

6 A. Yes, that's right.

7 Q. You stayed at the camp between June and October 1995, I think.

8 You saw something on one occasion of Simatovic. Can you tell us about

9 that and the effect he had on people.

10 A. Could you repeat that question, please?

11 Q. Yes. Did you see something of Simatovic coming to the camp on one

12 occasion, I think in a helicopter?

13 A. Yes, I did. That was when I heard that Simatovic had come to the

14 camp, intending to try out some new weapons or, rather, the Desert Eagles

15 - that was the type of weapon - and Bozovic was there in front of the

16 heliodrom. There was a heliodrom there and they came in by helicopter.

17 Q. You may have also seen him on other occasions, for example, in

18 Lipovica, and indeed at Kula, as you've told us.

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. What effect did he and his presence have on those in this unit?

21 A. Well, starting from the lowest ranks and then via Krsmanovic

22 upwards and the other commanders, everybody was afraid of him.

23 Q. Turn briefly, please, to Arkan's unit. See if you can help us at

24 all with that. Did you see something of the person who you understood to

25 be second in command of Arkan's Serbian Volunteer Guard?

1 A. Yes. On one occasion, I saw Aco Legija. He came with another few

2 members of Arkan's Tigers to fetch ammunition. He came to our camp in

3 Lipovica. That's what I saw. And I saw them take this out of the

4 warehouses and load them up onto their own jeep.

5 Q. Was there a unit called the Boka unit operating in your area?

6 A. Yes. It was Boca, the Boca unit.

7 Q. This is the same unit you're speaking of, is it, or is it a

8 different unit?

9 A. No, they weren't Arkan's Tigers. That was another unit, a

10 different one.

11 Q. [Previous translation continues]... unit then, please.

12 A. As far as I know, that particular unit was not within the

13 frameworks of Arkan's Tigers, and they came a couple of times as well to

14 our camp in Lipovica -- I beg your pardon, to Pajzos, to pick up

15 ammunitions and other supplies such as uniforms, et cetera. And what was

16 characteristic for this unit was that most of their jeeps were black with

17 white stickers on the doors and a black Skorpion. And underneath the

18 Skorpion, it said Boca detachment, Boca unit.

19 Q. What year was it, just to be quite clear, that these supplies were

20 made available?

21 A. 1995.

22 Q. And that applies both to Arkan's unit and to the Boca unit, does

23 it?

24 A. Yes. The difference in their arrivals was two or three days.

25 They would come two or three days apart.

1 Q. On how many occasions overall, roughly, did you see supplies made

2 available to either Arkan's unit or to the Boca unit?

3 A. Three or four times perhaps. At least.

4 Q. Was there, however, one occasion when Arkan himself arrived at the

5 camp in circumstances where he declined to identify himself?

6 A. I heard about that event from a guard who was on duty at the gate

7 at the time. His nickname was Kevin. I can't remember his exact name,

8 his proper name. But Arkan had arrived. He came up to the gate of our

9 camp, but there were orders that without permission from our commander,

10 nobody was to be allowed to enter through the gate. Arkan reacted very

11 strongly to that, and the guard called up the villa and Krsmanovic ordered

12 him to send Arkan away from the camp, from the gate, and Arkan turned his

13 jeep around and left.

14 Q. Subsequently, did you see the deputy Legija come to the camp and

15 obtain supplies?

16 A. Yes. That was when I saw Legija and several other men load up

17 several caskets of ammunition and hand grenades, I believe, and then they

18 left in their jeep. I don't know where.

19 Q. Paragraph 16. Was your unit deployed at some stage to a camp in

20 the forests of Ziriste, which is near the village of Njemci, which the

21 Chamber can find at page 23 E-2 of the atlas?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. How long did you stay there?

24 A. Yes. That was an improvised camp, in fact, in a forest called

25 Ziriste, and we spent, as far as I remember, a minimum of one and a half

1 months in that forest.

2 Q. Your purpose in being there, as subsequently discovered, was what?

3 A. As far as I was able to gather, on one occasion we went into

4 action quite suddenly and were deployed in a village near the demarcation

5 line. I don't remember the name of the village, and I didn't know its

6 name, actually. I didn't know about it. And it was along the borderline

7 with the Croatian forces. And we were deployed in the abandoned houses on

8 this line, and our instructors had given us orders to wait for him to give

9 us the orders to go into action. And we were deployed there from late

10 afternoon, along those separation lines, to the early afternoon, and the

11 instructor came by again and told us to withdraw. The next day, in the

12 camp, they said why we were there was to help the withdrawal of some of

13 our forces or operatives from the -- from Croatian territory, and rumours

14 were going around that these operations officers were walking in civilian

15 clothes through the town of Osijek.

16 Q. When you say your operatives, do you mean particularly Red Beret

17 operatives or do you mean other operatives?

18 A. I can't say exactly whether they were predominantly Red Berets,

19 but I assume so.

20 Q. The camp at Ziriste, did it also house representatives of another

21 army, and if so, which?

22 A. The members of the army of Republika Srpska Krajina, and there are

23 about 60 of them in two large tents. They were put up there.

24 Q. And did some of those migrate in a sense and become instructors in

25 your unit? Or the other way round, I think.

1 A. Not from that particular camp but from the Poskok unit, which was

2 active in the area of the Republika Srpska Krajina in the form of special

3 units, they joined us. Several members of that unit became our

4 instructors, in fact.

5 Q. And was some -- was there a tent at the camp containing prisoners,

6 ordinary prisoners, prisoners for criminal offences from Serbia, and if

7 so, what did they tell you about their being there?

8 A. Yes. Right next to our own camp there was a tent that had been

9 erected, with prisoners. They themselves said this. They said that they

10 were prisoners and that they were at the front because their prison

11 sentences would be abolished or reduced.

12 Q. Going through 1995 and into 1996, throughout this time, how had

13 you been paid for your service?

14 A. At that time while I was in the unit, I would be given a salary in

15 cash, without any signature or anything like that.

16 Q. So there was no paperwork identifying the unit of which you were a

17 member?

18 A. I didn't see any.

19 Q. Did there come a time when your unit arrived at a training camp in

20 Lipovica, as you've already told us, and also, did you move from there to

21 the Kula camp near Vrbas?

22 A. Yes. After spending several days in Lipovica, we moved to the

23 Kula camp, and this camp was officially opened a few days later.

24 Q. Was that official opening, that you've already spoken about, where

25 Jovica Stanisic, the man ultimately in charge, was present; correct?

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. You weren't, when you first answered questions about this, able to

3 approximate a date for this ceremony. I don't know if you're able to

4 assist the Judges at all now with what year or what part of the year that

5 ceremony occurred.

6 A. The ceremony, as far as I'm able to recollect, was held in the

7 month of October or perhaps November 1996.

8 Q. Until that ceremony, by what name or names was your unit known

9 colloquially?

10 A. Well, quite simply, they referred to us as the Red Berets. That's

11 what they called us.

12 Q. Was there any other name by which you were known?

13 A. Yes. They would call us "Frenki's men" or "Frenkijevci"

14 sometimes.

15 Q. After the ceremony, you were known as?

16 A. The unit was known as the unit for anti-terrorist operations of

17 the state security service, the JATD.

18 Q. Did there come a time when you left Kula to return to Lipovica,

19 and did you make a decision to leave the unit generally?

20 A. Yes. I made this decision much earlier, but it wasn't possible to

21 leave the unit because our superiors would say that, you know, it is very

22 difficult to become a member of the unit and it is even more difficult to

23 leave the unit.

24 Q. When did you finally achieve your desire to leave the unit? Can

25 you put a date on that?

1 A. This happened in the month of March, February or March, 1997.

2 Q. We have got some documents which we don't wish to weary the Judges

3 with unnecessarily, but it may be -- would you be assisted by looking at

4 documents to ensure that you get the year and month right for these

5 appointments?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. I think after you left the Red Berets, you then took up or found

8 yourself in employment as what?

9 A. I was transferred to the duties of a policeman in Pristina.

10 Q. What month did you take up that employment?

11 A. March 1997.

12 MR. NICE: Your Honour, we'll perhaps go into closed session for

13 this.

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17 [Open session]

18 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session.

19 MR. NICE:

20 Q. As to the date of the ceremony, if you have any further answers to

21 give, do, but please don't guess as to the date if you can't.

22 A. I do apologise. The ceremony took place in October or November

23 1995.

24 Q. One -- moving on and a small point, deal with quickly. On an

25 occasion when travelling, were you hitchhiking and were you picked up by

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1 someone who identified himself as a commander of the Parachute Brigade --

2 the 63rd Parachute Brigade of the VJ?

3 A. Yes. That was Major Ostojic.

4 Q. Did you identify yourself as a member of the group of which you

5 were a member?

6 A. Yes. I introduced myself as a former member of the Red Berets.

7 Q. And did Major Ostojic appear to have knowledge of and be on good

8 terms with people in the Red Berets?

9 A. During our talk, I came to the conclusion that he knew Rajo

10 Bozovic very well, as well as Krsmanovic and Frenki. And he even said to

11 me that if I happened to see Rajo Bozovic, to say hello to him from him,

12 from Major Ostojic.

13 MR. NICE: Your Honour, we must go into private session once more,

14 it won't be for very long, and I think it is, may be the last time. May

15 we do that, please?

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3 [Open session]

4 THE REGISTRAR: We're in public session.

5 MR. NICE:

6 Q. Witness K-2, from what you learnt, what was happening in the

7 Kosovo villages in about January 1999?

8 A. As far as I learnt from talking to my colleagues, the cleansing of

9 villages had begun, and when the Albanians tried to flee from Kosovo,

10 their ID cards were taken away from them en masse. And there were also

11 cases when money was confiscated as well from the Albanians. There were

12 also cases when houses, other people's houses, were looted, and --

13 Q. Dealing with the cleansing of the villages, was the account of

14 what was happening given you by one or more than one or by several of your

15 colleagues?

16 A. Those talks involved several colleagues, four or five of us. We

17 would be sitting around and chatting about what was happening in the

18 field, how it had happened, and so on, and from these chats I arrived at

19 my conclusions.

20 Q. Was there a pattern of activity in the villages described to you

21 by your colleagues? How were things done to cleanse the villages?

22 A. Mostly this was done in the following way: The artillery would

23 open fire on the village. After several hours of artillery fire, the

24 infantry would come in which would search the houses house by house

25 throughout the village.

1 Q. As to the removal of identification papers, according to what your

2 colleagues told you, who was removing identification papers? Which body,

3 which force was doing that?

4 A. The policemen were doing that at the checkpoints, the control

5 points controlling all vehicles, passenger vehicles passing by.

6 Q. And did your colleagues explain pursuant to what order or

7 instruction they were doing this?

8 A. No.

9 Q. Among the police officers operating in Kosovo, were there others

10 who had been members of the Special Police Units?

11 A. Yes. There were Special Police Units that were actually formed

12 out of the regular members of the police force. Also, there were special

13 anti-terrorist units, known as SAJ. And I also heard that Red Berets had

14 been present at Kosovo. And I heard from my colleagues that they had a

15 camp at the prison in Istok.

16 Q. Just yes or no: Did you hear from anyone of alleged involvement

17 of the Red Berets in Racak? Just yes or no.

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Yes or no; did you hear of the involvement of any members of the

20 police station from Pristina being involved in the attack on Prekaz and

21 Likosane?

22 A. I heard that they were involved in the attack against Prekaz or

23 Likosane, that is, members of the Pristina detachment of the Special

24 Police Unit among whom there were members of my former police station.

25 Q. Dealing with that in two parts, the Red Berets present at Racak -

1 just yes or no - are you in a position to give any names of the Red Berets

2 allegedly involved at Racak? Just yes or no.

3 A. No.

4 Q. And under whose command were the officers of the special force

5 from Pristina who were involved in Prekaz or Likosane?

6 A. Under the command of Zarko Brakovic.

7 Q. Did you ever see members of the Red Berets in Pristina?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Whereabouts?

10 A. On one occasion, I saw them in civilian clothes at the discotheque

11 of the Grand Hotel, and on another occasion during the bombing campaign,

12 in front of the Grand Hotel, in uniform.

13 Q. When they said they were there, did they say what their purpose

14 was in being there on either of these occasions?

15 A. On the first occasion when we met at the discotheque of the Grand

16 Hotel, I asked them what they were doing, and one of them said -- he

17 didn't say anything specific, but he said, "We were doing some things."

18 And on a second occasion, when I met them in front of the Hotel Grand,

19 they said they were there because there was a meeting being held of senior

20 officers, and one of the officers from the Red Berets was attending and

21 they were waiting for him and providing security for him.

22 Q. Did you subsequently see arriving at the hotel senior officers,

23 whom you can name and whose units you can identify, consistent with their

24 going to such a meeting?

25 A. After the meeting ended, from the meeting room in the basement of

1 the Hotel Grand, I met in the lobby General Stevanovic and also Zarko

2 Brakovic. And there were a couple of officers from the army of

3 Yugoslavia. I cannot remember what their ranks were, and I didn't know

4 their names, but they were wearing the uniform of the army of Yugoslavia.

5 JUDGE KWON: Could we get the date, please?

6 MR. NICE: Yes. It may be the witness can't help us in detail.

7 Q. But can you give us the date, or the approximate date by month and

8 year, of either of these meetings, please.

9 A. As far as I'm able to recollect, this occurred in the winter of

10 1998, or maybe the beginning of 1999. I'm really sorry; I can't remember

11 exactly.

12 Q. Turning to the bombing campaign in Kosovo, did you at some stage,

13 and if so, tell us when, have anything to do with providing security for

14 convoys travelling between Belgrade and Pristina?

15 A. When I went to Pristina for my own purposes, the only way I could

16 go there was on a convoy that was going there and also while providing

17 escort for those convoys.

18 [redacted]

19 [redacted]

20 [redacted]

21 [redacted]

22 Q. What were those convoys -- what did those convoys contain?

23 A. The convoys were transporting grenades and munitions to Kosovo.

24 Q. How many such convoys did you witness?

25 A. I travelled on three convoys. Two convoys were transporting

1 munitions and grenades, and the third consisted of ten combat vehicles

2 known as BOV, personnel carriers, that were going to Kosovo.

3 Q. Did you discover or did you see where the munitions came from and

4 what the munitions were on any occasion?

5 A. On one occasion, we were transporting first from the MUP in

6 Belgrade. We went to Cacak, to the Sloboda factory, where we loaded

7 grenades for mortars and for hand-held rocket launchers known as Zoljas,

8 and these were loaded within the Sloboda factory compound. And from

9 there, we went on to Kosovo.

10 Q. Did you observe how the Serbian media subsequently reported the

11 NATO bombing of that factory?

12 A. There was a daily news report saying that the NATO forces had

13 bombed a factory producing washing machines and cookers and that there was

14 absolutely no reason for bombing that factory, whereas I personally had

15 witnessed that in that very factory we had loaded hand grenades onto

16 trucks.

17 Q. Did you see a convoy that included ten BOV armoured personnel

18 carriers?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Coming from where and going to where?

21 A. From the surroundings of Belgrade, heading for Pristina.

22 Q. Did you see the involvement of the special anti-terrorist unit in

23 the delivery of munitions, and if so, where was that unit based?

24 A. One of the convoys or, actually, a convoy that I didn't mention

25 consisted of two large trailer trucks, and they went to the dairy in

1 Kosovo Polje where the SAJ or special anti-terrorist unit of the public

2 security service was based.

3 Q. You've spoken of one or it may be two civilian institutions in

4 which weapons were stored or delivered. Was there any other use, during

5 the NATO bombing, of civilian buildings and installations by the police or

6 other forces?

7 A. On one occasion, I witnessed police forces using a warehouse in

8 the building -- I'm sorry, I'm trying to recollect. It's a sports centre

9 in the centre of Pristina. Boro and Ramiz, it was called. And as far as

10 I can remember, there was a food storage facility there. I was also a

11 witness when police forces used the Panorama building or the Rilindija

12 building in Pristina. And they also used the building known as Kosovka or

13 Kosovarija, I'm not sure, close to the electricity board building in

14 Pristina.

15 Q. You've told us already about what you learnt of what was happening

16 in the villages. Did you hear anything of Albanians being killed in the

17 course of 1998, 1999?

18 A. There were stories that I heard from my colleagues who went into

19 the field that quite a large number of Albanians were killed, but I never

20 heard anyone in particular state that he had killed such-and-such a

21 person. I was never a witness to such a statement.

22 Q. You spoke of theft of money. Did you yourself see anything of

23 theft from Albanian houses, and if so, did you see anything of where

24 stolen property was actually stored?

25 A. On one occasion, close to my former station, there was an Albanian

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1 house with business premises on the ground floor, and members from my

2 station broke into what house and took out the furniture, the computer,

3 and other appliances, and a large office table ended up in the office of

4 my former police commander.

5 Q. Was any disciplinary measure taken against your colleagues who had

6 been involved in this or similar activity, to your knowledge?

7 A. As far as I know, no.

8 Q. As to Arkan's presence, if any, in Kosovo, what did you learn of

9 that and from whom?

10 A. During a conversation with one of my colleagues in the station, I

11 learnt that after most of the operations were over, Arkan, with his units,

12 came to Pristina. But apparently on that occasion he clashed with Frenki,

13 because Frenki told him, "You came with your units after we had finished

14 everything in order to plunder and loot." And on that occasion, Frenki

15 probably chased him away from Kosovo.

16 Q. Finally, was there a group called Munja of which you learnt

17 something; and if so, from whom?

18 A. I learnt from colleagues from my station that in the environs of

19 Pec there was a group led by a policeman who was a member of the Special

20 Police Unit and whose nickname was Munja. His name is not known. And the

21 unit consisted of members of the police force and civilians from the

22 surroundings of Pec. And that is why I heard about them, because on one

23 occasion they successfully carried out an operation together with the Red

24 Berets.

25 Q. Thank you, K-2. Wait there, you will be asked some further

1 questions.

2 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Milosevic.

3 Cross-examined by Mr. Milosevic:

4 Q. [Interpretation] On page 2 of your statement, you're asking for

5 all necessary measures to be taken to protect your identity.

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. As you say that your life was in grave danger.

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Do you still believe that your life is in grave danger in view of

10 the fact that from the date of your statement, it's been almost two and a

11 half years?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. So you still believe your life is in danger two and a half years

14 later?

15 A. Yes, that is my belief.

16 Q. Tell me, please, is the reason why you believe your life is in

17 danger your statement to the investigators or the fact [redacted]

18 [redacted] Why is your

19 life in danger?

20 A. Now for both reasons.

21 MR. NICE: Your Honour, I'm not sure that line of questioning may

22 not itself be a subtle of way of seeking to identify the witness publicly,

23 and we must proceed with the very greatest caution.

24 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Yes, Mr. Milosevic.

25 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

1 Q. I didn't hear your answer.

2 A. The answer is yes.

3 Q. So because you're involved in the [redacted].

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. So that is the main reason why you're no longer living in Serbia

6 and why you're concealing your identity; is that right?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. You're now living in the territory of Republika Srpska; is that

9 right?

10 A. Your Honours, I cannot answer that question.

11 Q. Very well. Are you employed?

12 A. Your Honours, I don't know whether I can answer that question.

13 JUDGE MAY: Very well.

14 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

15 Q. I don't see why you can't answer that question. I'm just asking

16 whether you're working.

17 JUDGE MAY: If you want to pursue this, Mr. Milosevic, we must go

18 into private session. Do you want to pursue it or not?

19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, I do wish to pursue it,

20 Mr. May.

21 JUDGE MAY: Let us go into private session.

22 [Private session]

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22 [Open session]

23 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, Mr. Slobodan

24 Milosevic, all the questions he's asked so for are asked in relation to a

25 statement given to the investigators of the Prosecution, and I think you

1 need to have that statement given by the witness to the investigators of

2 the OTP.

3 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Let's have a copy. If it's not available now,

4 we can have it after the adjournment. Is it available?

5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we continue?

6 JUDGE MAY: Yes.

7 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

8 Q. You were examined this morning about the way in which the Red

9 Berets, within the framework of the Ministry of the Interior of Serbia, et

10 cetera, existed and functioned; whether you knew who was in command, how

11 it was organised, et cetera. Do you know that what you are saying is no

12 secret and that these were regular units - of course they're not called

13 Red Berets - that all regular units, either of the state or the public

14 security service, were regularly included in the formation of the Ministry

15 of the Internal Affairs of Serbia? Do you know that?

16 A. I am not aware of that specifically and in concrete terms.

17 Q. But you are saying that the Red Berets started to exist earlier

18 on, and then in 1995, you attended a ceremony where an anti-terrorist unit

19 was organised, and then those Red Berets were transformed into an

20 anti-terrorist unit. Is that what you said?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And do you know that all over Bosnia and Herzegovina, the Republic

23 of Srpska Krajina, the Republika Srpska - I have now started collecting

24 information about all these things - do you know that virtually there

25 wasn't a town in which there weren't some Red Berets? There were some

1 municipal Red Berets. There were the Red Berets of Krajina, the Red

2 Berets in Republika Srpska, in the police. There were Red Berets in the

3 army. Did you see a chief of staff in those days also wearing a red beret

4 sometimes, and he was not a member of the Red Berets?

5 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Milosevic, you're putting a series of points to

6 the witness. He should have the chance to answer.

7 Witness K-2 -- wait a moment. Just one at a time.

8 The first point that's made is that there were Red Berets in every

9 town, municipal Red Berets. Is that right?

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, may I explain this

11 question that has been put to me by Mr. Milosevic?

12 Mr. Milosevic, it is true that many units wore red berets, but if

13 you did not know in certain circles, public circles, when you mentioned

14 Red Berets, especially in circles in Belgrade and in Serbia, people knew

15 exactly what this meant. I don't know whether you were aware of that in

16 your circle, but in the circles I moved in, when the word "Red Berets" was

17 used, we knew who was meant.

18 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

19 Q. There was a unit under that name. I am aware of the unit for

20 anti-terrorist activities. It exists. It is part of the establishment of

21 the security service, and it's no secret. I don't know whether they were

22 ever called Red Berets. As to who wore red berets during the war and who

23 is wearing red berets today --

24 JUDGE MAY: Let's deal with the first point. Was there -- just a

25 moment. Where was there anything secret about the existence of the Red

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1 Beret unit?

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. The main and first secret was

3 that we were not to say that the unit existed. We were advised, as

4 members of the Red Berets, not to talk to anyone about the existence of

5 that unit.

6 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

7 Q. Very well. And do you know that in a regular army, a soldier must

8 not provide information about his unit, even if it is a quartermaster

9 company of a brigade, which is concerned with supplies, food, and

10 preparing of food? Do you know that these are customary rules? And why

11 are you making a mystery out of this, saying that you were not allowed to

12 say that you existed and yet you existed? And what, then, were you

13 supposed to say, "You see me but I don't exist"? Is that the explanation

14 you're trying to give us?

15 A. No, that is not the explanation. I do know that the activities of

16 a unit, the method of work and things like that are not revealed to the

17 public, but when you're told not to talk about the existence of that unit

18 -- I'll give you a concrete example. One of the commanders told us,

19 "If anyone asks you where you're working, like your family members, it's

20 sufficient for you to say that you're working in the ministry." We

21 weren't even supposed to say that we were working in the state security

22 service.

23 JUDGE MAY: We're going to adjourn now. We're five minutes past

24 the usual time. We can return to this afterwards. We'll adjourn now.

25 Twenty minutes.

1 Witness K-2, don't speak to anybody about your evidence until it's

2 over, and don't let anybody speak to you about it, and that includes the

3 members of the Prosecution team. Could you be back, please, in 20

4 minutes.

5 --- Recess taken at 10.35 a.m.

6 --- On resuming at 10.58 a.m.

7 JUDGE MAY: I take it we're in open session. You have --

8 Mr. Milosevic, you have an hour left, up to one hour left, I should say,

9 for cross-examination.

10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] That's a little less than the

11 opposing party had, Mr. May, but --

12 JUDGE MAY: Not at all. It is most certainly not. It is rather

13 longer than they had, but let us go on.

14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well. I think we can skip some

15 bits here.

16 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

17 Q. You say that you were employed in the Ministry of the Interior; is

18 that right?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. You also say that your unit enjoyed the support of the government.

21 Is that right?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Now, tell me this, please: Do you know that the Ministry of the

24 Interior is also a ministry within the composition of the government of

25 the Republic of Serbia?

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Well, where's the problem, then, if the ministry, a ministry which

3 is a part of that government, has its own support or, rather, that the

4 government supports its own ministry? Where's the problem there? And its

5 structures.

6 A. Well, I don't see any problem in your question.

7 Q. Is there any part of the MUP that doesn't enjoy the support of the

8 government? Is there any part of MUP that doesn't have it? Because you

9 emphasised that this particular part had the support of the government.

10 Is there any part of the MUP or Ministry of the Interior that does not

11 enjoy the support of the government?

12 A. Well, I don't know that.

13 Q. And do you know that it was precisely that particular unit, the

14 anti-terrorist operations unit is an official formation and part of the

15 MUP of Serbia? There is no mystery there, no mystification on that score.

16 A. At the time that I was a member of the unit, there were some

17 problems - I don't want to call them rebellions - but members of the unit

18 were not getting any written proof whatsoever that they were in fact

19 members of the unit and that they were working within the frameworks of

20 the Ministry of the Interior.

21 Q. How come when you received a certificate saying that you were an

22 employee of the Ministry of the Interior? That is what it says. This

23 certificate said that you were an employee.

24 A. Yes. I received this certificate only later on, when the members

25 required one.

1 Q. What do you mean "later"? I see that this certificate was issued

2 to you in June, which is when you completed your school, your regular

3 schooling, which was also a component part of the Ministry of the

4 Interior, which means to say the police school or academy. And then you

5 got a job and received a certificate testifying to the job.

6 A. The certificate does have that date, but certificates were handed

7 over to us personally considerably later. Several months later, in fact.

8 Q. Well, I'm not talking about bureaucratic lateness in giving you

9 the certificate, but the certificate did say that you were an employee of

10 the Ministry of the Interior on the date that you became an employee and

11 got a job there once you had graduated from school, like everybody else.

12 Isn't that right?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Very well. Now, as I see here that you completed your schooling

15 and that you were a member of that unit - on the 20th of June, 1995, you

16 became a member - how can you talk about the activities of that particular

17 unit before the date you joined it?

18 A. I think that I have already said where I get these figures from,

19 from -- facts from, from the stories told by my instructors, the people

20 who trained me in my unit.

21 Q. So you're talking about what you heard from somebody else. Is

22 that it?

23 A. Yes, what we talked about.

24 Q. All right. Fine. You mentioned some names, the names of some

25 leading people, Tuka, and some others. Zvjezdan. Do you know that the

1 people that you mentioned were members of the police force of Srpska

2 Krajina throughout the time that it existed?

3 A. No.

4 Q. Well, as we have limited time, let's take a look at this. You

5 explained who held what function in the Ministry of the Interior, starting

6 out with who was the leader of your own unit, commander of your own unit,

7 and then who was the deputy head of the state security department and the

8 head of the security department. You mentioned Simatovic and Stanisic and

9 so on. And these are public functions and public figures, common

10 knowledge to everyone. Is that something that you're aware of?

11 A. Well, I do know that Mr. Simatovic was special advisor to the head

12 of the department for state security, and I also know that Mr. Stanisic

13 was head of the state security service.

14 Q. Yes. And that's something you could have read in the papers. You

15 say that you look -- saw the rules of service for the state security

16 service, and then you went on to speak about what the rules contain.

17 Mr. Nice asked you about that. And you said that it stipulated that the

18 state security service can perform intercepts, can listen in to

19 conversations, tapping, and so on. That's what you said, isn't it?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Do you know that according to those rules of service which you say

22 you have read, that permission to place -- to monitor somebody, to

23 intercept their conversations, could only be -- an order to that effect

24 could only be issued by the Supreme Court and signed by the president of

25 the Supreme Court? Is that something you are aware of?

1 A. I don't know who gives permission for work of this kind to be

2 done, but that's what I read in the rules of service. And of course, the

3 rules of service were a state secret.

4 Q. Of course the rules of service of the state security service is a

5 state secret. So what's strange there? What is -- so what if it's secret

6 and confidential? I assume that there is a law according to which

7 somebody must be - how shall I put this? - listened in to and monitored

8 and intercepted and that the state security service can only do so

9 pursuant to an order issued by the Supreme Court. Is that something you

10 know or aware of? At least, that's what it was like at the time; I don't

11 know what the situation is now.

12 A. Authorisation by the Supreme Court, Mr. Milosevic, is something I

13 don't know about.

14 Q. All right. Well, I can see you don't know about it, and it seems

15 to me you don't know about most things, about you did go on to explain how

16 you -- 30 of you collected in front of the MUP building. You were invited

17 to meet there, and then went up to a camp. And you say that allegedly

18 there was a villa there, which you referred to as Tito's villa; is that

19 right?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. What was your assignment there? As far as I understand it, you

22 weren't put up in the villa itself. You weren't accommodated there, were

23 you?

24 A. Well, my assignment was to spend time there and to attend training

25 on the ground.

1 Q. The 30 of you provided security for the building. Isn't that

2 right? You stood guard in front of the building. And if there were 30 of

3 you in five shifts, meant six people to a shift at the gates, at the

4 entrance. You performed the duty of guards or porters, isn't that right?

5 A. No.

6 Q. Well, what did you do then.

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, may I explain?

8 JUDGE MAY: Yes.

9 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

10 Q. Go ahead, explain.

11 A. We were deployed as members of the Red Berets who were supposed to

12 undergo training. And as far as security for the camp itself, a large

13 portion of the ground around the camp was mined. There were vineyards and

14 they were mined. And there were two or three -- rather, three guard

15 posts.

16 Q. All right. So you were doing training there, training on the

17 ground, in the field; is that right?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. And then you go on to describe how a helicopter arrived with

20 Franko Simatovic in it and that he tested the Desert Eagle new weapons.

21 Do you know that the Desert Eagle is in fact a pistol? Are you aware of

22 that?

23 A. Of course.

24 Q. So what? He arrived there by helicopter to try out a pistol. He

25 didn't have anywhere else to try out this particular pistol but had to

1 come in by helicopter especially to try that out, to see how the pistol

2 shot?

3 A. That's what happened, and that's what I know, and that's what I

4 said.

5 Q. All right. Fine. Then you go on to speak about some sort of

6 improvised -- but let's round off one point first. As you underwent

7 training, did you have any combat operations that you were engaged in

8 there?

9 A. At one point I did happen to mention that we launched an operation

10 for several hours. We were ready for action but there was no actual

11 combat on that occasion.

12 Q. You said that later, when you were at the Ziriste camp, as you

13 said; isn't that right?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And as you yourself said, you were there from the late morning to

16 the early afternoon, which means a few hours; right?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. So was that part of your training too?

19 A. No.

20 Q. Well, what was your function at that time?

21 A. At that time, the order given was when you get the signal via the

22 signals officer, that we should go into action against the Croatian

23 forces, and we were explained that they were at a distance of 200 to 500

24 metres away from us, that we should start operating, start shooting at

25 their positions. And we waited for the signal to be given.

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1 Q. And did you open fire?

2 A. No. The order to open fire never arrived.

3 Q. You said that your function was to provide security for the

4 transference of certain people wearing civilian clothing on the other side

5 to collect intelligence data. That's what I understood from what you were

6 saying. Is that right?

7 A. Yes. Those were the rumours and stories going around the camp

8 afterwards.

9 Q. Right. So stories round the camp again?

10 A. Yes, told by the instructors.

11 Q. Tell me then, please, did you in those camps of yours, in both

12 camps while you were there - and I see that you were there in the Red

13 Berets for about half a year, or perhaps a month longer than half a year -

14 did you shoot any -- a single bullet in any combat operation?

15 A. Not in a direct combat operation, but during training, many.

16 Q. Yes. When you were doing train -- shooting training, marksmanship

17 and training like any other unit; right? But did you shoot at anybody?

18 That's what I'm asking you now.

19 A. Not me personally.

20 Q. Did any of the other members in the unit shoot at anybody? Did

21 they have a combat operation which involved shooting at somebody at all?

22 A. As far as I know, yes.

23 Q. Did you take part in an operation of that kind?

24 A. Not directly.

25 Q. Well, what do you know, then?

1 JUDGE MAY: What does that mean? What's the question?

2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I'm asking him whether that unit had

3 engaged in any combat operation, and he said no. Then I asked him whether

4 he shot at anybody. He said no. I asked him, did any member of the unit

5 shoot at anybody? He said as far as he knew, yes.

6 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

7 Q. So when did this happen? When did this shooting take place, and

8 were you present when somebody shot at somebody else?

9 A. I wasn't directly present when somebody shot directly, if you mean

10 one man shooting at another.

11 Q. Yes. I mean shooting at people, not a target or anything else,

12 any other things related to training sessions.

13 A. I was not directly present myself, no.

14 Q. All right. Fine. You mentioned a ceremony in Kula to mark a

15 review of the troops, the unit, I assume, the unit for anti-terrorist

16 operation belonging to the state security service of the Ministry of

17 Internal Affairs of Serbia, isn't that right, the JATD?

18 A. It was the official opening of the camp in Kula and a review of

19 the troops of the unit, and during the speech that was delivered on the

20 occasion, as far as I remember, one of the commanding officers said that

21 we were members officially of the unit for anti-terrorist operations as of

22 that day, and as of that date on that day, our salaries, we started

23 receiving salaries in envelopes on which it said the Ministry of the

24 Interior. Up until that date, or up until that ceremony, the money that

25 we received, we received directly by hand, without any signature.

1 Q. And you continued to receive cash afterwards. What changed, just

2 this envelope?

3 A. The envelope changed and the fact that we had to sign for the

4 salary we were given, we had received. And also on the envelope until

5 then - we never had this before - it said the coefficient, stipulated the

6 coefficients.

7 Q. Well, yes, the customary data relating to salaries, how high the

8 salaries were, what post you occupied, et cetera; isn't that right?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. All right. So you left the unit for anti-terrorist operations in

11 March. That's right, isn't it?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. At your own request?

14 A. I sent in the request much earlier, but I was allowed to leave the

15 unit only in March.

16 Q. How do you mean much earlier when you spent only several months

17 there in total?

18 A. I sent in a request to leave the unit one or two months prior to

19 that.

20 Q. So this procedure for being allowed to leave took several months.

21 You asked to be transferred to another post outside that unit; isn't that

22 right?

23 A. I requested to leave the unit.

24 Q. But, yes, you wanted to stay on working for the Ministry of the

25 Interior but doing something else; right?

1 A. At that point, this wasn't important to me but I assumed that that

2 was so, yes.

3 Q. Just a minute, please. As far as I can see from your statement,

4 you were deployed to the post of policeman in Pristina, a junior police

5 officer in Pristina; right?

6 A. And that was not what I requested.

7 Q. All right. But did anybody force you to take up this job of

8 policeman in Pristina?

9 A. Well, all the people that left the unit when I left considered

10 this to be punishment for leaving the unit.

11 Q. I don't understand. I'm not following you. When you left the

12 unit, were you able to go, for example, and take up a civilian job or did

13 you have to stay and work for the police force? Did anybody force you to

14 work in the police force? Is there any policeman working in the police

15 force because he's forced to?

16 A. As far as I know, no.

17 Q. And did you forcibly work in the police force? Were you forced to

18 work there?

19 A. No.

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5 MR. NICE: Your Honours, appropriate --

6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] We don't have to go into private

7 session.

8 JUDGE MAY: Yes, we do, Mr. Milosevic. These are possibly

9 identifying questions.

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1 [Open session]

2 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

3 Q. You are saying that in the winter of 1998, when you were on sick

4 leave, I assume you were treated somewhere in a hospital outside of

5 Kosovo. Is that right?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Therefore, most of the time, as you said, you spent in hospital.

8 On what basis then, when you were not even in Kosovo, are you giving

9 statements about things that you heard while you were virtually out of

10 work because of sick leave or suspension and on the basis of what you had

11 heard from some of your colleagues in the security of the MUP building?

12 That's what you're testifying about.

13 A. The colleagues that I heard what I said from were colleagues who

14 were in the field. They were not colleagues providing security of the MUP

15 building. And whenever I heard these stories, I was in Kosovo at the

16 time.

17 Q. But you were not working. You were not in the service.

18 A. Yes, but I had to report down there in order for the proceedings

19 to be completed and to pick up my personal income, my salary.

20 Q. So you went there to get your salary and to report there because

21 of the proceedings that were ongoing against you; is that right?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And on those occasions when you went to pick up your salary or

24 because of these administrative reasons, you heard from various colleagues

25 these things, and you're now testifying about things that you really know

1 nothing about. Isn't that right?

2 A. I don't know what things exactly you have in mind.

3 Q. Well, for instance, you mentioned that somebody from the state

4 security was in Racak. Now, give me a single name from somebody from the

5 state security who was in Racak. If you're claiming that someone was in

6 Racak, then surely you must know at least one name of a person who was in

7 Racak.

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I perhaps could answer

9 this question in closed session.

10 JUDGE MAY: Very well. We'll go into private session.

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21 [Open session]

22 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

23 Q. Please, you're telling us that in the winter of 1998, you met in

24 Hotel Grand certain senior officers of the army of Yugoslavia and of the

25 police; is that right?

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. And so what? So what if they were at the Hotel Grand? Certain

3 officials of the Ministry of the Internal Affairs and the army of

4 Yugoslavia, so what if they were there?

5 A. I apologise, but I don't understand the question.

6 Q. I don't understand either what this means. "I saw in the Hotel

7 Grand a general from the army or a general from the police." Are they not

8 allowed to go to the Hotel Grand? Is this linked to any kind of crime or

9 what does this -- what is this supposed to mean?

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I don't understand

11 this question. I think the question relates more --

12 JUDGE MAY: It's a comment. All the witness can say,

13 Mr. Milosevic, is that he saw these people in Pristina at the times he

14 said. Whether there's any significance in it is a matter for the Court to

15 say. It's not for the witness.

16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well.

17 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

18 Q. In connection with your allegation that you were transporting some

19 equipment in a convoy from the Sloboda factory, Mr. Nice asked you how did

20 the television of Serbia represent the bombing of that Sloboda factory by

21 NATO? Did it represent it as being the bombing of a factory for household

22 appliances, washing machines, cookers, and so on, and you explained that

23 yes, our propaganda represented it as being bombing of a civilian

24 facility. Is that right?

25 A. No, that's not right. That was the conclusion that I myself made.

1 Q. I see. It was your own conclusion. And do you really know that

2 the household appliances factory was destroyed, where hundreds of people

3 worked, called Sloboda of Cacak? The whole of Cacak knows that, that

4 Sloboda was destroyed, a factory manufacturing refrigerators, cookers, et

5 cetera, and other household appliances. It was a factory of household

6 appliances. It had an entirely civilian programme. Do you know that that

7 factory really was bombed and destroyed?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Well, what has that destruction, that wild and savage bombing of a

10 household appliances factory where people were employed, citizens of Cacak

11 made their livelihood for their families, what has that got to do with any

12 kind of munition that you were transporting?

13 A. As far as I'm able to conclude, first of all, NATO statements were

14 that they were targeting military facilities and facilities linked to the

15 production of weapons and equipment.

16 Q. I see. So you concluded that this factory manufacturing household

17 appliances was also involved in the production of weapons and equipment.

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. I see. But that factory was indeed destroyed. Do you know that?

20 A. Yes, I do.

21 Q. So it wasn't any propaganda on the part of Serbian television.

22 A. As far as I'm able to understand, what was involved was that the

23 factory was represented such as it was, that is, a factory manufacturing

24 household appliances, but also, as far as I know, within the framework of

25 that factory hand grenades were manufactured.

1 Q. But Sloboda is not just one plant. The plant for household

2 appliances was destroyed. Surely you cannot mean that such a factory can

3 produce weapons. Sloboda is a large company, consisting of several

4 factories or plants. Are you claiming that beneath the household

5 appliances --

6 JUDGE MAY: What the witness has said is that they went there and

7 they loaded up grenades. That's what he said he got from the factory.

8 That's his point. Now, you can call other evidence, if you want to, about

9 this factory. It may be that it was doing both things at the same time,

10 but we'll have to see. The witness can only say what he saw and heard

11 himself.

12 Is there anything, Witness K-2, that you want to add to what you

13 said about this factory? You've heard the point that the accused makes.

14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May --

15 JUDGE MAY: Let the witness answer. Let the witness answer.

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, nothing more in addition to what

17 I have said. I don't know any more details about that factory.

18 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

19 Q. Very well. Since you were on sick leave at the time, and you used

20 the convoys going there simply as a means of transportation, you were not

21 on active duty in that connection.

22 A. I was not, but as I was told by a certain officer from the MUP, if

23 the need should arise, I could provide security and I should provide

24 security.

25 Q. Well, how do you know what they were transporting? Who told you

1 that?

2 A. As far as I know, in wooden, green boxes nothing else can be

3 transported but munitions and grenades.

4 Q. So you saw these green wooden boxes.

5 A. Yes, on which there was an inscription saying "hand grenades."

6 Q. And then you say that various civilian facilities were used in

7 Pristina, like warehouses, the department store of Kosovo, and other

8 warehouses; is that right?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. So what? Why -- what's wrong if the warehouses were used? Was

11 somebody using warehouses illegally for some reason? Do you find some

12 irregularity in that again? What's wrong with using warehouses?

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I do not understand

14 again whether this question is addressed to me or to the opposing side.

15 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Milosevic. Next question.

16 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

17 Q. Very well. You used the expression "There were stories"; isn't

18 that right?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Therefore, what you're saying you're saying on the basis of

21 stories.

22 A. Certain things, yes. I think I said which things I'm talking

23 about on the basis of stories.

24 Q. But what did you participate in when you were in Kosovo? We've

25 already established that you didn't fire a single shot when you were in

1 training. When you were in Kosovo, did you take part in any combat

2 operation, a single combat operation?

3 A. No, I did not.

4 Q. Well, why, then, are you using in your statement the expression

5 "the massacre in Racak"? How do you know there was a massacre in Racak?

6 A. I don't understand the question. Could you repeat it?

7 Q. You mentioned Racak, and you were not there, were you?

8 A. No, I wasn't.

9 Q. Then you mentioned and used the term "the massacre in Racak." Do

10 you know that in Racak the police clashed with the very strong terrorist

11 group of Albanian terrorists or, if you like, the KLA, as they called

12 their organisation, and there was a conflict between the two sides in

13 which a certain number of people were killed? So why are you talking

14 about the massacre in Racak? Is this your expression or an expression

15 used by those who were investigating you, interviewing you?

16 A. I don't know how to answer that question.

17 Q. Do you believe there was a massacre in Racak?

18 JUDGE MAY: It doesn't matter what the witness --

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Definitively.

20 JUDGE MAY: What did you hear was happening in Racak, since you're

21 being asked about this?

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I heard that in Racak, the killing

23 was carried out of several -- I can't claim now whether they were

24 civilians or members of the KLA, but as far as I know, there was a mass

25 killing and those bodies were found in a ditch somewhere.

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1 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

2 Q. But you don't know anything about Racak. That's quite clear.

3 JUDGE MAY: The only significance of his evidence is what he says

4 he heard about it from colleagues of his. Yes. Let's move on.

5 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

6 Q. Tell me, please, since, as you say, you abandoned the unit of your

7 own free will and were assigned to work in Pristina as of March 1996, did

8 you abandon the unit because you found the training too exhausting?

9 A. No.

10 Q. But on the 1st of March, you were assigned to the position of

11 junior policeman; is that right?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Is that the lowest possible level in the police?

14 A. It is the level at which you start working upon completing

15 secondary school.

16 Q. So that's the lowest level in the police; is it not?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And since you were assigned to this post of a beginner with the

19 lowest rank, what job were you given to do? As I see from the decision

20 given to you, it was some kind of security, like a porter, a receptionist.

21 A. No. I was given a job as a member of a patrol.

22 Q. So you worked like a patrolman in the street, and you patrolled

23 certain streets or a certain block of buildings; is that right?

24 A. [No interpretation]

25 Q. So as a beginner policeman with the lowest rank, do you consider

1 yourself to be qualified to assess the structure of the police, the public

2 security, the state security, the activities of the police force in

3 Kosovo, et cetera, et cetera, and all these other things that you have

4 spoken about?

5 A. These were the things I was taught about during my schooling in

6 the school of the Ministry of Internal Affairs. I don't think that

7 they're any assessments of my own. These were the things we were taught

8 about.

9 Q. So what you learnt in this school of Internal Affairs. That's

10 what you've been testifying about here; is that right?

11 A. Yes, when speaking about the structure of the state security.

12 Q. Very well. And as working -- while working as a policeman in

13 Pristina, did you ever receive from your superiors any kind of order

14 against citizens, members of the Albanian ethnicity, or that you should do

15 anything that would be discriminatory in nature? Did you ever receive

16 from any one of your superiors any such order?

17 A. No.

18 Q. Very well. You say that before the accident you were suspended

19 but not in connection with what I just -- I read out to you from the

20 documents given by the other side to me, but - this is on page 15, the

21 second paragraph of your statement - because of complaints in connection

22 with the registration of a vehicle. Were you suspended because of those

23 complaints or because it was established that you had taken part in

24 certain illegal operations in connection with the registration of that

25 vehicle?

1 A. No unlawful activities were mentioned in connection with that

2 event, as far as I know.

3 Q. But you say on page 15 that you were suspended because of

4 complaints in connection with the registration of a vehicle. That's what

5 you've said.

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Is that right or not?

8 A. It is. It's right, yes.

9 Q. If something was legal, why were you suspended?

10 A. Because when I was to register that vehicle owned by a person from

11 Pristina, I could use that possibility because I came from the territory

12 of Bosnia and Herzegovina, so I couldn't complete the task. And then the

13 person came to my commander to complain why I hadn't completed this.

14 However, when I came back to Pristina, I explained what had happened. I

15 returned his documents to him, and everything else. However, the

16 commander suspended me because this was considered to be unlawful.

17 Q. So let's not dwell on that any more. So you wanted to abuse the

18 fact that you were coming from Bosnia-Herzegovina to assist that person to

19 illegally register his vehicle; is that right?

20 A. That's the way you're putting it, but that's not how I consider it

21 to be.

22 Q. Very well. But as you say on page 15, in the second paragraph,

23 after this accident that you had later on, you couldn't work on the ground

24 and so you were assigned to the police station in charge of providing

25 security of the main MUP building in Pristina; is that right?

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Now, tell me, as you were never in the field from the moment you

3 were suspended and after that you provided security, on what basis are you

4 testifying here about some sort of cleansing, then you're asked about the

5 pattern of behaviour, you said first there was shelling and then the

6 infantry and so on. On what basis are you talking about these things?

7 A. On the basis of conversations with my colleagues who did go into

8 the field.

9 Q. Can you tell us their names, the names of those colleagues who

10 told you that first a village would be shelled, et cetera? There was a

11 person who took part in this and explained that the expression "cleaning

12 up" meant action against terrorists and not cleansing of civilians. A

13 participant testified to that effect. And you said that you heard from

14 your colleagues that Albanians were being cleansed. Is that what you're

15 claiming?

16 A. As far as I know, I never stated that the word "cleansing" or

17 "cleaning" meant cleansing of the entire Albanian population.

18 Q. But the terrorists, yes.

19 A. I didn't say that it applied to terrorists only.

20 Q. Well, what did it apply to if it was not to civilian population

21 and not to terrorists? Who did it apply to; to beetles and flies?

22 A. This operation which is known as cleansing or cleaning, if no one

23 is left in the village and all the houses are burned down, then I'll be so

24 free as to ask you, what do you think?

25 Q. And where did you see, according to the question by Mr. Nice, that

1 first there was an artillery attack, then infantry goes in, and then

2 house-to-house searches? Where did you see that?

3 A. I said that I hadn't seen that. I heard that from talks to

4 colleagues who went into the field.

5 Q. So you're testifying about what you heard or allegedly heard, is

6 that what you're saying?

7 A. I say in my statement that I heard about these things.

8 Q. All right. Fine. You say that in October 1998 you also saw some

9 members of the Red Berets, five or six of them, in fact, and that you knew

10 nobody, none of them, and that there was an officer amongst them, a Red

11 Beret officer, but you don't know which one; is that right?

12 A. Yes, that's right.

13 Q. So who did you see there?

14 A. I said that I saw a group of Red Beret members and that I knew one

15 of them, and I talked to one of them, and they said that they were there

16 to provide security for the meeting and that they were waiting for a Red

17 Beret officer to turn up.

18 Q. And so what then? What's the point? They were there to provide

19 security for a meeting, some kind of meeting. Where was the meeting?

20 What meeting?

21 A. In the conference hall of the Grand Hotel.

22 Q. Ah, the conference hall of the Grand Hotel. And who attended the

23 meeting?

24 A. I've already said that to the best of my recollections I saw

25 General Stevanovic, Zarko Brakovic, and I also saw two or three - I can't

1 remember exactly whether there were two or three - officers of the army of

2 Yugoslavia there.

3 Q. All right. So what you're saying is very high-ranking officials

4 of the police force and army that were holding a meeting in the conference

5 hall; right? Is that what you're saying?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. At that time there was terrorism in Kosovo, was there not?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Well, is there something abnormal about the fact that high-ranking

10 officers of the army and police were there for a meeting, that somebody

11 provided security to prevent them from being shot down dead or from a

12 terrorist diversion because the meeting was being held in a hotel, a

13 public place where there was a lot of coming and going? Is that something

14 out of the ordinary then, according to you, that they would have security

15 details to ensure their security. And if the generals of the police force

16 and army were there, that they should have security details, somebody to

17 see that they were protected while they were in conference and not be

18 killed by the terrorists that were rampant in Kosovo at the time? Is that

19 right?

20 A. Well, there's nothing strange about that, but the reason for which

21 I said that I had met members of the Red Berets was to say that their

22 presence was there at that time, that they were in Kosovo at that time.

23 Q. So what if they were in Kosovo? It's no secret that the

24 anti-terrorist unit was there. Do you know that if there was terrorism in

25 Kosovo, isn't it logical that an anti-terrorist unit would be there, or at

1 least part of an anti-terrorist unit would be in place?

2 A. Yes, that is logical.

3 Q. But I have more to ask you. You're talking about Kosovo, and in

4 addition to Racak, and I asked you about that and can see that you know

5 nothing about it, you meant Prekaz, Likosane, Kacanik, were you personally

6 in any one of these places?

7 A. I mentioned these particular places because my colleagues or

8 friends were there, and they were engaged in operations in those places.

9 Q. And then you heard once again from them that where they were there

10 was fighting, isn't that right?

11 A. Yes, and I think that's what I stated in my statement.

12 Q. And did they tell you that they had committed any crimes over

13 there?

14 A. No.

15 Q. Well, what were they doing there? They were fighting terrorists.

16 They clashed with the terrorists. Do you know, for example, that those

17 were all places where terrorist groups were very strong? So they risked

18 their lives to defend the country from terrorism. Do you know that? Are

19 you aware of that?

20 JUDGE MAY: Can you help us on that point? It seems a very

21 general one.

22 Yes, Mr. Milosevic, next question. You've got about three minutes

23 left.

24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Only three minutes, I see. Very

25 well.

1 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

2 Q. Now, do you remember this: As you were -- or, rather, how many

3 Serbs, your colleagues, policemen, soldiers, and civilians were killed in

4 Kosovo by the terrorists during the time that you were on sick leave? Did

5 you talk about that, perhaps?

6 A. Of course.

7 Q. What do you know about it, then?

8 A. I also know that many of my colleagues lost their lives.

9 Q. Well, who do you think killed them, then?

10 A. The terrorists did.

11 Q. Therefore, in a single sentence you say that you heard about the

12 killing of Albanians but that you did not see anything. Isn't that right?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And about the fact that your fellow colleagues were killed by

15 terrorism, you say nothing about that, and you're a policeman yourself.

16 And your friends were killed. Isn't that right?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Tell me, then, please, did you testify -- did you see all the

19 destruction of the NATO bombings, because you were in Pristina all the

20 time and then you would come and go from time to time. Do you know of all

21 the destruction that the NATO bombing caused in Pristina?

22 A. Mr. Milosevic, I don't know what you have in mind exactly, but I

23 was a witness to the fact that many buildings were destroyed.

24 Q. Many buildings destroyed, you say. Do you know how many civilians

25 were killed and fell casualty there?

1 A. No.

2 Q. And do you remember a single policeman, a colleague of yours, who

3 was killed without any reason in Kosovo? Can you quote me any example of

4 this?

5 A. I don't remember anybody being killed, but I know that they were

6 -- some people were wounded.

7 Q. All right. [redacted]

8 [redacted]

9 A. In BH territory.

10 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Any more questions on that, Mr. Milosevic?

11 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

12 Q. All right. Tell me this: Do you remember where you were on the

13 20th of August, 1995?

14 JUDGE MAY: Are we in private session?

15 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour, we're in private session.

16 JUDGE MAY: The transcript should reflect that.

17 [Private session]

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1 [Open session]

2 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Tapuskovic, if you have any questions.

3 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I do have a few

4 questions, but I should like to ask my first questions in private session,

5 please.

6 JUDGE MAY: Very well. Private session, please.

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5 [Open session]

6 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]

7 Q. I should like to start off by asking you, Mr. Witness, Witness

8 K-2, something about what you said in your statement, the statement you

9 gave to the investigators. And in that statement you mentioned the Green

10 Berets, isn't that right?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Can you explain to us what you mean by the "Green Berets." What

13 does the term imply?

14 A. At that time --

15 Q. We're talking about May 1992.

16 A. Yes. The Green Berets, to me, meant, as far as I knew, a military

17 formation, a military unit, which was composed exclusively of Muslims.

18 Q. Was it a military or paramilitary unit at that time, May 1992,

19 that is to say before there was recognition of the independence of

20 Bosnia-Herzegovina?

21 A. I really didn't know at the time how the unit was defined.

22 Q. While the country existed, which was in existence at the time,

23 that is to say Yugoslavia, and Bosnia was a part of that Yugoslavia, those

24 military units which were armed, the Green Berets, were they something

25 that belonged to the -- did not belong to the army of Yugoslavia but

1 paramilitary units?

2 A. From what you've just said, it would appear that that's so.

3 Q. Well, not according to what I said, but that was how it was. And

4 if that's your answer, if you say yes, then let's move on.

5 On page 3, paragraph 2 of the English version of your statement

6 you said that a close relative of yours had to flee from Tuzla because the

7 military garrison in Tuzla was surrounded by those same Green Berets.

8 Isn't that right?

9 A. No.

10 Q. In your witness statement - and may the statement be shown to the

11 witness - it is on page 3 of the B/C/S, second paragraph, and that's what

12 you talk about. You say that the Green Berets were -- had surrounded the

13 garrison and that they had to flee across Mount Vlasic because of the

14 activities of the Green Berets. Would you have a look at that sentence,

15 please.

16 A. Would you help me with the paragraph.

17 Q. It is paragraph 2, sentence 2.

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Is it true that the military garrison was surrounded by the Green

20 Berets and that the soldiers in the garrison were endangered and that they

21 had to take cover and defend themselves?

22 A. Yes. According to what my relative said, that is true.

23 Q. Thank you. Asked by the Prosecutor, you spoke about the training

24 you underwent when you became a member of the special unit and, inter

25 alia, you said that you did training in what you called silent

1 liquidations; is that right?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Did you yourself ever put into practice what you were trained to

4 do anywhere? Yes or no.

5 A. Except in training, I did not.

6 Q. Thank you. Do you know anything about the events in Croatia in

7 1991 and 1992? The fighting between certain military units. Do you

8 yourself know anything specific in view of the period of time in 1991 and

9 1992 you were there? In view of your age, actually..

10 A. No. Specifically, no.

11 Q. Do you know anything about the events except for what you say you

12 saw referring to the Green Berets in Bosnia-Herzegovina until 1994? Do

13 you know anything about that?

14 A. I know what everybody else knows.

15 Q. I'm asking you whether you yourself took part in anything linked

16 to the activities in Bosnia-Herzegovina up until 1994.

17 A. No.

18 Q. In your statement, on page 13 of the B/C/S version, and in the

19 English it's page 12, the last paragraph of page 12, you even state that

20 not even in 1995 during the Storm operation, you never received

21 instructions to intervene. Is that true?

22 A. As far as I remember, during the Storm operations and that

23 particular period of time, I myself was in the Ziriste camp, and all we

24 knew about it was that one night we heard, via the communications devices,

25 that Krajina had fallen.

1 Q. All right. But you had no part in any of that, nor did anybody

2 caution you or ask you to go into action even at that time?

3 A. I just remembered that at that particular time, our unit, the one

4 that was in Ziriste, was on a state of alert.

5 Q. I'm asking you whether what you say in your statement is true,

6 that, "during Operation Storm we never received instructions to

7 intervene." Is that correct? Is what you say in your statement correct?

8 A. Yes, it is.

9 Q. Thank you. Now, I have a few other questions with respect to what

10 went on in Kosovo. You were in Kosovo. You were in the area from 1996

11 onwards with the slight interruption while you were on sick leave. It was

12 rather a lengthy sick leave. And you also say in your statement -- you

13 talk about Racak in your statement, Prekaz and Likosane too. Now, do you

14 happen to know in all three cases, in Racak, you talked about Racak, but

15 let's take Prekaz and Likosane, that there was a conflict there between

16 the KLA members and the regular units of the police and army of Serbia?

17 Are you aware of that? Do you know about that? Yes or no.

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Do you know anything at all about the presence of the KLA in the

20 territory of Kosovo? That is, the numerical strength of the KLA and about

21 the conflict that existed between the KLA and the regular forces of the

22 army and the police?

23 A. I knew that members of the KLA were present in Kosovo, but as for

24 their number and other things that you asked me about, I was not familiar

25 with.

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1 Q. And do you know that first conflicts would occur between the army

2 and the police on the one side and then the KLA and that this necessarily

3 involved casualties on both sides and among civilians?

4 MR. NICE: Mr. Tapuskovic is really advancing a case which is, I

5 think, a matter of judgement by the Tribunal in due course, and presenting

6 as decided fact, almost, matters which will be controversial in due

7 course. I'm very doubtful -- I beg your pardon: I invite the Chamber to

8 be concerned about the value of this form of cross-examination from

9 somebody's whose role is as an amicus.

10 JUDGE MAY: Yes, the point being, Mr. Tapuskovic, that you should

11 be putting -- the Prosecution is saying what is relevant, what will help

12 the Tribunal, rather than putting forward a case on behalf of the Serbs or

13 anybody else, particularly about these matters about which there's a great

14 deal of evidence anyway about what happened in Racak, and we're going to

15 have to make our minds up. Perhaps you could move on to something else.

16 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I wasn't dwelling

17 on Racak. I was referring to the awareness of this witness about certain

18 events, though this was covered in the examination-in-chief, but he didn't

19 mention to what extent the KLA was present in this area, how many men were

20 under arms. I'm not asking him about anything else. Surely it is not

21 possible for the witness not to be aware of that.

22 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Let's move on.

23 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]

24 Q. So do you know - that's all I'm asking of you, Witness K-2

25 - except for you to tell me what you may know, if you spent so much time

1 there, about the presence of the KLA and conflicts between the KLA and

2 regular police and military forces. What do you know about that?

3 A. I have direct knowledge that the conflicts started much later.

4 Conflicts between the KLA and the police and army of Yugoslavia were

5 preceded by terrorist attacks on police stations.

6 Q. Were there casualties among the policemen and the civilian

7 population of both ethnicities? To me, I make no distinction between

8 Albanian and civilian casualties, but I'm just asking whether there were

9 casualties on both sides - and I'm talking about civilians - because of

10 the conflicts between the KLA and the police.

11 A. I was never an eyewitness of civilian casualties, but I did

12 eyewitness the wounding of one of my colleagues.

13 Q. And do you know that the population was on the move, both Serbian

14 and Albanian, seeking shelter, away from the places of conflict?

15 JUDGE MAY: I think we really are getting too far from the

16 witness's evidence. We have much other evidence about these matters which

17 we will have to make our minds up about. Now, this witness -- what this

18 witness may have heard in particular about that is not going to assist us.

19 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] I wasn't referring to what he

20 heard but what he witnessed. As he was a witness of the bombing too.

21 Q. Do you know to what extent Kosovo was bombed and whether it was

22 the area that was most bombed within the Republic of Serbia?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Were you too in danger? Were there bombs falling close by? Were

25 you an eyewitness of the bombs falling on Kosovo?

1 A. Yes. Yes.

2 Q. And can you tell me whether the police obtained any information

3 that the bombs falling on Kosovo contained depleted uranium?

4 A. I don't know about that.

5 Q. And tell me also, when the bombing started, was it only then when

6 the population started fleeing Kosovo, the Albanian population in the

7 first place but also Serbians as well?

8 A. As far as I know, the fleeing of the population started then.

9 Yes, you're right. Yes.

10 Q. And my last question: You commented on the way the media in

11 Serbia represented the events in connection with the Sloboda factory. And

12 did the world media show what had happened in Racak, Likosane and Prekaz,

13 and did they represent it only as the killing of civilians, a massacre in

14 Racak, as it was described?

15 JUDGE MAY: We dealt with one particular --

16 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, Your Honour.

17 JUDGE MAY: We dealt with one particular matter which he had

18 knowledge of, which is this factory, the Sloboda factory. Now, this is a

19 general point about which there is much other evidence, and we won't be

20 assisted by this witness telling us what he knew about the media,

21 particularly the world media. We shall be the judges of that.

22 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] He was not in Cacak. He wasn't

23 there where the factory was, but he was in Kosovo.

24 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Tapuskovic, please. Let us move on. Now, have

25 you got any other questions?

1 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] No. That was my last question.

2 Thank you.

3 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Nice, we're past the break time, but we haven't

4 had an hour and a half yet. Are you going to be very long with this

5 witness?

6 MR. NICE: I've got half a dozen questions or so.

7 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

8 MR. NICE: About half a dozen questions or so. I will probably be

9 five or ten minutes.

10 JUDGE MAY: Yes. We'll deal with them, if you can, in the five

11 minutes available.

12 JUDGE KWON: During the adjournment, if you could locate the

13 document which the accused referred to which is related to the higher --

14 some committee's decision, appellate decision about the disciplinary

15 action.

16 MR. NICE: We have that document, and -- I gather that it's in

17 fact attached to the witness statement you have. It hasn't been --

18 JUDGE MAY: We've got a lot of exhibits. We can deal with them

19 very briefly. The only ones -- I have not found it amongst these

20 documents.

21 MR. NICE: No, there been a recent translation. I'll deal with

22 that over the break.

23 JUDGE MAY: Yes, if you would.

24 Re-examined by Mr. Nice:

25 Q. Witness K-2, first, you've been asked several questions about your

1 motivation for giving evidence. You said partly connected with problems

2 or concerns you have, but what was your motive for giving evidence? Just

3 tell the Judges.

4 If this is going to reveal your identity in any way, we'll ask for

5 closed session, but otherwise, tell us publicly.

6 A. I think I could explain that more clearly in a private session.

7 MR. NICE: Your Honours.

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17 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session.

18 MR. NICE:

19 Q. You've been asked by the accused questions suggesting that the

20 unit in which you were engaged was a regular unit in all respects. Can I

21 ask you a few questions arising from that?

22 To your knowledge, did this unit engage in straightforward

23 intelligence work of any kind or on any occasions?

24 A. The work that the unit did, as far as I know, to my knowledge, was

25 exclusively of a combat nature, combat type of action, which meant going

1 out into the field and combat action exclusively.

2 Q. Nevertheless, you spoke on two occasions of these people being in

3 civilian clothes, one at the meeting that I'll come to in a minute in

4 Pristina, I think, but another when you were engaged in assisting the

5 recovery of members of the Red Berets from across the border. Was it your

6 experience that they operated in plainclothes -- in civilian clothes from

7 time to time?

8 A. As far as assistance of my unit to pulling out operatives from

9 Croatian territory, there were talks in the camp that the members -- now,

10 I can't say -- I'm not quite sure whether they were members of the Red

11 Berets or whether they were operatives from the state security service,

12 but at any rate, I know that there was talk of, and I'll try and quote

13 once again, that, "Our people last night and yesterday walked around

14 Osijek in civilian clothing." That's what was said.

15 Q. Do you have any understanding of the reason for this regular force

16 operating in that way in civilian clothing?

17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May, I have an objection to

18 make. The witness is not saying that they were members of the Red Berets

19 who were wearing those civilian clothes, and he even emphasises that he

20 does not know that they were members of the Red Berets wearing civilian

21 clothes at all.

22 JUDGE MAY: Let us clarify with the witness what he meant. I

23 certainly understood that, but I may have been wrong.

24 Mr. Nice, perhaps you would clarify that matter, the accused

25 having objected.

1 MR. NICE:

2 Q. Yes. The people said to have been operating in Osijek, were they

3 Red Beret members or not or wasn't it clear?

4 A. I can't say with certitude. I can't say 100 per cent that they

5 were members of the Red Berets. But as I have already stated, in the

6 camp, among us, among members of my unit, there was talk, and once again I

7 quote, that, "Our people last night were --" and I assume our members,

8 that's my conclusion, that the members of the unit walked around Osijek.

9 Q. In civilian clothes?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And even if they weren't members of the Red Berets, they were

12 members of which service coming from which country?

13 A. The only conclusion I can make was that they were members of the

14 state security service, 100 per cent they were from Serbia.

15 Q. And the year of this operation, if you can help us, just to be

16 quite clear, or the date, if you can.

17 A. I'm sorry, but I don't remember the exact date. As far as I'm

18 able to recall, it was sometime in the autumn of 1995.

19 Q. And finally, on the scope of operations of the Red Berets, was

20 anything -- in light of the questions asked of you, was anything said to

21 you or did you learn anything about the Red Berets operating overseas? Or

22 not overseas; outside Yugoslavia.

23 A. Let me go back to the meeting in Lipovica, the meeting we had with

24 Mr. Frenki and Rajo Bozovic and Mr. Krsmanovic. We were told that our

25 unit existed -- and it was not important for purposes of action whether it

1 was on Yugoslav territory or outside Yugoslav territory. Our unit could

2 go into action and must indeed go into action where the need arises.

3 Q. In relation to the meeting of senior military and/or MUP officials

4 in Pristina, was there anything known to you to suggest that the Red

5 Berets' presence there was simply limited to the role of protection of

6 those attending the meeting or not?

7 A. At that particular moment, and the members of the Red Berets were

8 exclusively in front of the entrance to the Grand Hotel and in the hotel

9 hallway, and that was the place I met them and where I had the talk that I

10 spoke about earlier on.

11 Q. And how were they dressed?

12 A. They were dressed in NATO pattern uniforms, and they were much

13 better equipped than the other regular units.

14 Q. My last question relates again to Zveki or Zvjezdan. It's

15 suggested that he was a member of the police force of Srpska Krajina. Did

16 he ever indicate that to you or not?

17 A. No. I heard about this from Mr. Milosevic for the first time.

18 Q. Thank you. Oh, yes, there is one other matter I wanted to ask

19 you.

20 MR. NICE: And, Your Honour, I'm afraid this will have to be in

21 closed session, but it's a very short point.

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23 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session.

24 JUDGE MAY: Witness K-2, that concludes your evidence to the

25 Tribunal. Thank you for coming to give it. You are free to go.

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you too.

2 MR. NICE: Your Honour, while the Chamber is necessarily in, to

3 some degree, confidential session or private session as the witness

4 withdraws, can I use that time very briefly to make -- deal with a couple

5 of things?

6 JUDGE MAY: Yes.

7 [The witness withdrew]

8 MR. NICE: One of them has to be in private session.

9 JUDGE MAY: We'll go into private session.

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8 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session.

9 MR. NICE: Your Honour, while again we're in -- we're in open

10 session and Your Honour knows some of the procedural possibilities that

11 I'm canvassing and the documents I've served on the Chamber and, of

12 course, the consequence of those possibilities in terms of real time,

13 something that we probably should have in mind, as a matter of interest

14 while we're waiting for the next witness to come in, I took an hour and

15 ten minutes in chief with the last witness. My calculation, by

16 experiment, is that the summaries can be read at roughly the rate of -- by

17 whomsoever they're read, take about three minutes per page, so that the

18 various possibilities for such a witness would be if anyone were to read

19 his statement aloud in full, to save something in the region of 40 minutes

20 or more for a witness and to save considerably more time, of course, if

21 the summary of the statement is taken as the evidence in chief. I realise

22 these are matters for later consideration but it's probably helpful to

23 have the practical realities in mind as we look at this type of witness.

24 The next witness, then is Robert Hausvicka, and his summary is

25 only, I think, six pages.

1 JUDGE MAY: We have in mind going on until 2.00.

2 MR. NICE: Thank you. We will be referring to pages of the atlas,

3 for your convenience, from time to time.

4 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Milosevic.

5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I didn't understand. In what sense

6 is this abbreviation being made? This witness was not announced as a

7 witness until last night. He wasn't even on any kind of list. So I

8 assume that we need to hear his testimony.

9 JUDGE MAY: Yes. It's a suggestion they're making. It's a

10 proposal that they're making, which we're going to discuss in due course,

11 but no change for the moment. The evidence will be given in the normal

12 way. And you won't have to cross-examine this witness today.

13 MR. NICE: This witness is listed on a schedule on the 18th of

14 December. His particular position may have accelerated for reasons

15 outside our control.

16 [The witness entered court]

17 JUDGE MAY: If the witness would take the declaration.

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

19 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

20 JUDGE MAY: If you would like to take a seat.

21 WITNESS: ROBERT HAUSVICKA

22 [Witness answered through interpreter]

23 Examined by Mr. Nice

24 MR. NICE: Your Honour, Dubrovnik is shown in our Exhibit 336 on

25 page 37.

1 Q. Your full name, please.

2 A. My name is Robert Hausvicka.

3 Q. Mr. Hausvicka, did you live in Mokosica, some ten kilometres from

4 Dubrovnik? We can see it on the map. Did you complete compulsory

5 military service in Sombor in Serbia in December of 1990? Are you

6 currently vice-president of the Dubrovnik branch of the Croatian

7 Association of Camp Detainees of Serbian and Montenegrin Concentration

8 Camps?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Did you join the ZNG in May of 1991?

11 A. Yes, I did.

12 Q. [Previous translation continues]... a newspaper advertisement and

13 joining a unit that was incompletely defined and simply then called the

14 Dubrovnik Unit, counting about 100 men at the time?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. At that early stage, did you all have weapons and uniforms or not?

17 A. No.

18 Q. Was there some sharing of weapons because of the insufficient

19 number of them?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And then in August of 1991, did you join the Croatian special

22 police force, along with friends who also had military or police training,

23 special forces then numbering about 50?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. All of those, were they local to the Dubrovnik area?

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. And based, I think you say -- well, just tell us where it was

3 based, because I don't think we can see it on the map. Yes we can. Plat,

4 is that right?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Just north-east of Mokosica, with which the Chamber is familiar.

7 Can we turn to the attack on the Dubrovnik region. On what day

8 and indeed at what time did that attack begin?

9 A. The attack started on the 1st of October, at 6.25 a.m., in the

10 area of Rijeka Dubrovacka, or to be more precise, Komolac.

11 Q. The attack was in what form, coming from where?

12 A. The attack was in the form of shelling of the water supply system,

13 the electricity power lines and telephone exchange, and it came from the

14 direction of Ivanica.

15 Q. Which is on the Bosnia-Herzegovina border?

16 A. Yes, yes.

17 Q. What happened to the phone lines as well at that time and the main

18 road?

19 A. The phone lines were immediately cut off after the first shelling,

20 and the main road was also shelled so that there was no communication

21 between Dubrovnik and Mokosica.

22 Q. Was there any Croatian police or military presence in Mokosica at

23 that time? If not, where were there Croatian positions?

24 A. There were no army or police forces in Mokosica, but as far as I

25 know, at frontier places there were such forces at Debeli Brijeg and two

1 other localities; Osojnik and Brgat.

2 Q. Was Mokosica shelled starting on the 1st of October and for

3 several days? If so, how many days, and can you please tell us how many

4 shells?

5 A. The shelling started on the 1st of October in the evening and

6 continued for the next few days. On the 2nd of October was intensive

7 shelling of the area of old Mokosica when the civilian buildings and local

8 church were hit. I counted about 850 shells, but there were in fact more.

9 Q. Would your function have been to defend where you were living and

10 the town of Dubrovnik had you been able to do so?

11 A. I don't understand the question. Could you repeat it, please?

12 Q. Of course. My mistake. Were you there to defend the town, if you

13 could, in the force in which you were engaged?

14 A. The function of my unit was in the event of hostile attacks, that

15 is of any attacks, to defend the city, but I wasn't able to do so because

16 I happened to be in Stara Mokosica in my native home at the time of the

17 shelling, the house I was born in.

18 Q. And all you were doing, I think, was in a shelter, listening to

19 the shells; is that correct?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. In Mokosica, were there several shelters in which civilians could

22 take refuge; those civilians coming from the town but also surrounding

23 towns, villages, and parts of the area?

24 A. In the area of the new settlement or New Mokosica, there were five

25 or six nuclear shelters where civilians could seek shelter, and they did

1 come from the surrounding places and sought shelter there.

2 Q. Was there one particular shelter in a suburb where civilians were

3 killed? And we'll turn to those deaths in a minute, but was there such a

4 shelter?

5 A. Yes, in the area of New Mokosica.

6 Q. Was that shelter also home to the Crisis Staff, the Crisis Staff

7 being the body organising support for communities in times of emergency?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Were you near to the shelter at the time when the civilians were

10 killed, and if so, will you tell us, please, how those deaths occurred.

11 A. I was quite close, some 100 to 150 metres away from the shelter.

12 The entrance to the shelter was such that people came out of the shelter

13 to smoke because they couldn't smoke inside. And when the shell fell,

14 there were seven civilians outside who were killed who happened to be

15 there by chance.

16 Q. Before we come to the names of those who were killed, there was a

17 police car that had parked there for some reason; is that right?

18 A. There was a police vehicle, but that car was there from the

19 beginning of the shelling. Somebody, I don't know who exactly, came home

20 in that vehicle.

21 Q. And this shelling occurred on which of the days of the shelling?

22 A. When the civilians were killed, I think it was on the 7th of

23 October that they were killed.

24 Q. So this police car had been in the same position, for anybody to

25 see, for several days or for six or seven days?

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. The car was there. Was there anything in the nature of a flow of

3 civilians into and out of the shelter that might have been visible?

4 A. Yes. The civilians would frequently come and go from the shelters

5 because they couldn't collect all the things from their apartment, and

6 they would go back to their apartments when there was a pause in the

7 shelling.

8 Q. Were you aware of, could you see the position from which the

9 shelling by the JNA was coming?

10 A. You couldn't see exactly from the new settlement of Mokosica, but

11 we knew that it came from Ivanica and the surrounding hills because the

12 army had already taken control of those areas.

13 Q. From your knowledge of your home locality, what view of Mokosica

14 would the JNA have had from their vantage point in the hills?

15 A. It's a high ground above the new settlement and Old Mokosica, and

16 they could see clearly, and with binoculars they could observe everything

17 that was going on down there.

18 Q. Roughly how many people were there in each of the shelters?

19 A. Roughly 300 to 400 people.

20 Q. When you say that people left the shelters to go to their homes in

21 quiet times, did everybody leave or were there some who were cautious, who

22 stayed behind so that there would be less than the total numbers seen

23 flowing in and out, or did all 300 or 400 people go in and out?

24 A. Well, of course not. There were those who were more courageous

25 than others. The braver ones would go back to fetch their belongings.

1 But there was a place in front of the shelter, a tap of water, and all the

2 persons in the shelter had to go out to get water from there.

3 Q. What percentage of the people in this shelter, as indeed perhaps

4 in the others, but in this shelter, what percentage of the people in this

5 shelter were, like you, members of a force?

6 A. There were five of us.

7 Q. Five out of 300 or 400?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Were the people who were killed outside your shelter killed by one

10 shell or more than one shell?

11 A. More than one shell.

12 Q. How many altogether? Can you help us?

13 A. Those men who were killed in front of the shelter, those seven,

14 were killed by one shell, and another two were killed by a second shell.

15 MR. NICE: Your Honour, I'm going to ask the witness now, please,

16 to look at part of what is already Exhibit 361, tab 35. It's been annexed

17 to your summary this morning for ease of reference. We can lay it on the

18 overhead projector and the witness can help us, I think, with certain

19 names.

20 The document, for those seeing it, viewing it from outside, is

21 page 63 of the indictment, and it lists various locations and various

22 alleged deaths.

23 Q. If we look, please, Mr. Hausvicka, at this document. Beside the

24 7th of October and Mokosica, there are a total of nine names. Are you

25 able to help us with which ones of those names relate to people who were

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1 killed in this shelling?

2 A. Could you please repeat the question? Do I need to read out the

3 names or just show you?

4 Q. Whichever is convenient, but we see a block of nine names.

5 MR. NICE: Your Honour, I may be perhaps permitted to lead on

6 this.

7 Q. If we go through these names, are you in a position to identify as

8 having been killed seven of the names, you not being, I think, in a

9 position to deal with Jozo Brajovic and Ivo Maskaric.

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. The others you know yourself, saw yourself - whatever - were

12 killed on that occasion?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Paragraph 8 -- paragraph 7. I think the bodies were kept in the

15 shelter and transferred the following day by boat to Gruz.

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Did you hear subsequently on the radio of a cease-fire that had

18 been negotiated between the JNA and Croatian representatives and learn

19 that it was said to be safe now to return to your village as others could

20 return to theirs?

21 A. Yes. The news was broadcast on the radio.

22 Q. Notwithstanding that, and the Chamber can see the geographical

23 point in the atlas, I think - I've just lost it again - just above

24 Dubrovnik and just slightly to the north-west of Mokosica.

25 Notwithstanding that, was there an advance by the JNA on the 18th

1 of October, and if so, where to?

2 A. The radio broadcast the news that people could return to the

3 village of Osojnik because a cease-fire had been negotiated, but the JNA

4 continued its attack and entered the village of Osojnik.

5 Q. On what day?

6 A. I don't know the exact date, but I think it was between the 13th

7 of October and the 18th of October.

8 Q. Did you, with other special police officers and regular policemen

9 and some armed civilians, attempt to form a defensive line? If so, where?

10 A. We tried. On the 18th of October, 1991, in the village of

11 Pobrezje, which is just below the village of Osojnik.

12 Q. Which is not shown on the map, it being too small.

13 With what success did you do this?

14 A. My opinion was that it was unsuccessful because JNA units that

15 were stationed above us could see every move we made, and we could see

16 their mortar batteries as well.

17 Q. So what happened to the occupants and indeed the houses of

18 Pobrezje?

19 A. The village of Pobrezje, the people had sought shelter, and among

20 the houses, many were damaged. There were three or four holes in each of

21 the houses from projectiles.

22 Q. Did you and your fellow defenders take occupation of the houses at

23 some stage or take up positions within those houses?

24 A. Yes. We took up positions within those houses, that is, those

25 that we thought were a little safer than others.

1 Q. Were you, from within the houses or on the way there, able to see

2 the batteries of mortars lined up above you?

3 A. On a hill above the village, one could see a mortar battery.

4 Q. Moving on from these particular events towards the end of October

5 or the beginning of November - I think there may be an error on your -- at

6 paragraph 10 - how much of the town of Dubrovnik had been taken?

7 MR. NICE: May the witness now have, please, Exhibit 336, at page

8 37. If it could be placed on the overhead projector so the witness, who

9 hasn't been in the court before -- if you could place that on the overhead

10 projector for the witness. No, it's in front of him.

11 Q. And if you would be good enough to look at the overhead projector

12 and with a pointer point out the various places that we're going to

13 referred to. Point it out on the projector, not on the television screen.

14 A. Could I hear the question once again? I don't quite understand

15 what I need to show.

16 Q. You haven't had a question yet. That's my mistake. By the

17 beginning of November, to what extent had the JNA forces advanced on

18 Dubrovnik? Can you point out the relevant towns or villages to which they

19 had advanced? And tell us, as you're going through them, what we're

20 looking at.

21 A. The Cilipi airport, Orasac, Osojnik.

22 Q. And as to Mokosica itself, is that, which we can see well shown on

23 the map to the north of Dubrovnik itself, was that reached by the JNA or

24 was that still in possession of the Croats?

25 A. That was still free. At that time, they hadn't reached Mokosica

1 yet.

2 Q. In the other direction, coming up from Montenegro, do you know or

3 can you help us with how far they had advanced by the beginning of

4 November? You've spoken of the airport at Cilipi. Is that the level of

5 their advance or the extent of their advance?

6 A. I can't know exactly because I wasn't in that area. I think they

7 came to somewhere between Cavtat and the Cilipi airport.

8 Q. On the 21st of October of 1991, did you leave the village of

9 Pobrezje to report to your superior, a man called Kreso Mandic, by

10 telephone, and to do that you had to go to Mokosica?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. You were unable to make the call, and on your return to Pobrezje,

13 did you discover that it was under heavy shelling?

14 A. Yes. When I arrived in the new settlement of Mokosica, a stronger

15 attack began, using all sorts of weapons on that village, the village of

16 Pobrezje, and my friends had withdrawn, and I moved on upwards to see what

17 had happened to them.

18 Q. Did you then seek to return once more to Mokosica, but were you

19 intercepted by Serb forces?

20 A. From the Novi Nazlije, a new settlement of Mokosica, I started out

21 towards Pobrezje to see what had happened to my colleagues. When I

22 arrived in the village of Pobrezje, I saw a group of some 20 soldiers. I

23 thought they were my friends, but when I came to within 20 metres of them,

24 I realised they were JNA forces, in fact.

25 Q. How were you dressed?

1 A. I was wearing a camouflage uniform with police insignia.

2 Q. What happened to you?

3 A. When I realised that these were JNA forces, I did an about-turm in

4 my car, but I assume they realised that a car was coming up towards them,

5 they intercepted me, and started shooting at the car. At that point I

6 thought should I kill myself or not. I had a hand grenade hitched up in

7 my belt, but when I got out of the car I put my -- or should I get out of

8 the car and put my arms up and surrender?

9 Q. In the event, what happened to you? What did the JNA soldiers do

10 to you?

11 A. They came up to me very cautiously and told me to lie down beside

12 the car, which I did, and then when they came up to me, they started

13 hitting me, kicking me, hitting me with their rifle butts and goodness

14 knows what else. And then one of the members, I suppose he's a member of

15 the JNA, with a long beard, he placed a knife at my throat, and I suppose

16 he wanted to slit my throat.

17 Q. Was he deterred from doing that by another JNA officer who

18 instructed that you be taken to the command post for interrogation?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. And were you indeed taken off to Osojnik to be interrogated? If

21 so, what happened on the way?

22 A. Yes, they did take me off to the command post at Osojnik. On the

23 way there, as we went down the road, with all the beating that I received,

24 I saw in passing that there were several mortars. And as the road

25 descended towards the village of Osojnik, there were two recoilless guns,

1 cannons, and you could see from that position Gruz, and Lapad and

2 Dubrovacka Rijeka; you didn't have to have binoculars to see.

3 Q. What did the soldiers do to you on the way to Osojnik?

4 A. While we were walking towards the elevation, they kept beating me

5 and whatever, and then they threw me into a military vehicle and took me

6 to a tent. In the car or military vehicle, military off-road vehicle,

7 they also beat me. And at one particular point, one of the three men who

8 were with me cut my ear. He wanted to cut my ear off, in fact, because I

9 had an earring in my left earlobe, and he said, "You're a Croatian

10 mercenary; Tudjman is paying you to fight us."

11 Q. In Osojnik, under interrogation -- or before we come to the

12 interrogation, what did you see of Osojnik when you got there? What was

13 the position of the houses and so on?

14 A. From the point they brought me to where the tent was, it was dusk

15 already, but from what I could see, three or four houses were aflame, were

16 burning. And from what I learnt from the other detainees, prisoners who

17 were in the camp with me, I learnt that all the houses in the village were

18 burnt to the ground.

19 Q. The tent to which you were taken, what did the soldiers do to you

20 when you were there?

21 A. When they brought me to the tent, there was an officer inside. I

22 don't know what rank, but he started to interrogate me. He asked about

23 the forces, the positions of the Croatian so-called forces, and they

24 started to beat me. The officer did as well, along with the soldiers.

25 They beat me with all kinds of things, everything that they had at hand,

1 to hand.

2 Q. Did you lose consciousness?

3 A. Yes. At one point I did lose consciousness. I fainted. And when

4 I came to, I later heard one of the officers, I think he had established

5 connection with the command post, I think at Trebinje - I don't know for

6 certain - but he asked them what he was to do with me. And he said, "What

7 shall I do with him? He's got the same weapons as I have." And they

8 said, "Bring him here," and that's how they came to take me to the camp

9 Trebinje.

10 Q. You were taken to Trebinje. In a vehicle, presumably. We can see

11 it's about 20 kilometres, 30 kilometres. But did you stop on the way at

12 any village or villages; and if so, what happened?

13 A. Yes, we did stop in two places. They placed a bag over my head, a

14 cotton bag, and we stopped at two places. I suppose they were hamlets or

15 villages, and they said, "Here's an Ustasha." And then the members -

16 rather, I don't know who they were, I heard the voices of children,

17 civilians, and other people too in both these two places - I was beaten up

18 very badly.

19 Q. By the villagers or by the soldiers who were guarding you, or were

20 you not able to say?

21 A. Well, I can't say for sure because I had this cotton bag over my

22 head. From what I could hear, I heard the voices of children and women

23 too.

24 Q. As well as being beaten, were you subjected to any other indignity

25 on that occasion by the people in the street?

1 A. Yes. They spat at me. That's the least of it.

2 Q. In the barracks at Trebinje, by whom were you received and then

3 what happened to you?

4 A. At one place, I was taken over by three military policemen, and

5 from there on they took me to the Trebinje barracks where I was put up,

6 taken to a room with a large window and grills on the windows and a

7 blackboard on the wall. I think it was a classroom of sorts. I spent

8 some time there, I don't know how long exactly, and then the guard opened

9 the door and several men came in, some with beards, some without, but all

10 of them were wearing JNA uniforms. And one of them asked me whether I

11 knew him, whether I recognised him, and I was taken aback and could barely

12 see and said I didn't know who he was. But then when he smiled and I saw

13 the tooth he had, the broken tooth he had, I remembered that he was one of

14 the inhabitants of the city of Dubrovnik and that his name was Pero

15 Miljevic. And then he said to me, "Well, we have got you now. It's your

16 turn." And he told them that I was an Ustasha and that I had slaughtered

17 around town, that I had set fire to Serb houses, that I had slaughtered

18 Serbs, women and children. And then the other ten people that were there

19 proceeded to beat me. This went on for some 15 or 20 minutes until an

20 officer of the JNA came in and said, "That's enough. You've been

21 beating him long enough."

22 Q. Did you stay in that room for a time until, in handcuffs, you were

23 taken to another room where camouflage-uniformed soldiers, including more

24 senior officers, were present?

25 A. Yes.

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1 Q. Were you put in a chair, and if so, then what happened to your

2 hands and feet?

3 A. Well, they started to interrogate me first. They asked about the

4 positions of the Croatian army, the Croatian forces, and at that moment, I

5 thought it best not to lie, to say -- to tell the truth, because there was

6 nobody anywhere around. But they weren't satisfied with my answer. And

7 one of them said, "You're going to spill the beans." And then they tied

8 my hands to the chair and my legs to the legs of the chair. Then they

9 turned the chair upside down, took the boots off my feet, and I don't know

10 with what, a truncheon or something, they began to beat the soles of my

11 feet. I know that I was in terrible pain, and I would have said anything

12 I knew at that point, but I didn't know anything to confess to.

13 Q. Can you remember in any detail what you actually said to them

14 about the Croatian forces of which you claim to be aware? What numbers

15 did you put on the forces and so on?

16 A. Yes. At one point, when I could take the pain no longer, because

17 it was excruciating, I said, "Right. I'll own up to everything. I'll

18 recognise everything you say." And they put the chair upright again and I

19 lied. I said that there were members of the Croatian National Guard

20 Corps, the Zenga, I think I said five to six hundred. I said that there

21 were artillery and tanks and mines all over the place. And they said to

22 me, "Well, you could have owned up to that straight away and you wouldn't

23 have received the beating you did."

24 Q. Were you taken the next morning to Bileca barracks in an off-road

25 vehicle, barely able to stand because of the beatings you had received?

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. And on arrival there --

3 JUDGE MAY: Well, Mr. Nice, if you're moving on to another topic,

4 might be a convenient moment.

5 Mr. Hausvicka, we're going to adjourn now --

6 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, Your Honour.

7 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Hausvicka, we're going to adjourn now until

8 tomorrow morning. Could you be back, please, at 9.00 to conclude your

9 evidence. Would you remember not to speak to anybody about it until it's

10 over, and that does include to members of the Prosecution team. Would you

11 be back, please, at 9.00 tomorrow morning.

12 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.59 p.m.,

13 to be reconvened on Friday, the 10th day of January,

14 2003, at 9.00 a.m.

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