Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 15178

1 Thursday, 30 January 2003

2 [Open session]

3 [The witness entered court]

4 [The accused entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 9.04 a.m.

6 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff.

7 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Thank you, Your Honour.

8 WITNESS: WITNESS C-013 [Resumed]

9 [Witness answered through interpreter]

10 Examined by Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff: [Continued]

11 Q. Witness, did you see Jovica Stanisic in Dalj in mid-September

12 1991?

13 A. Yes, that's true.

14 Q. Can you describe where you saw him and what happened.

15 A. I saw him in the centre of Dalj, and as we said, that was sometime

16 in mid-September 1991. It was about 9.00 or 10.00 in the morning. Jovica

17 Stanisic had arrived with an escort and several vehicles. He got out of

18 the vehicle. And all that took place in front of the government building

19 or, rather, the premises where Mr. Hadzic was.

20 I myself happened to be, just by chance, in front of the building

21 at the time, and I saw them get out of the cars. And Mr. Stanisic raised

22 his voice and asked where Mr. Hadzic was. As the answer was that he

23 wasn't in the building, he said that he should be found straight away and

24 that he should be brought to Dalj. And then they set off in the direction

25 of the TO headquarters.

Page 15179

1 Q. Did you see Ante Kostic and Zavisic on that day, at the same time

2 when Stanisic arrived, and were they with him?

3 A. Yes, they were with him.

4 Q. Did you see any of the local authorities, like Kojic or the TO

5 commander, also at that same time?

6 A. Yes, I did. They were all there at the time. And I also remember

7 that Slavko Dokmanovic was there, who at the time was the president of the

8 Vukovar municipality, or mayor.

9 Q. Did Mr. Stanisic say anything to them?

10 A. Yes, he did. He said that a meeting should be convened of all the

11 representatives or, rather, the commanders of the TO, of the local

12 authorities, and that in the space of a few hours this meeting would be

13 held with these people.

14 Q. Did he make any accusation or did he criticise the local

15 authorities in any way at that time?

16 A. Yes, he did. Straight after getting out of the car, Stanisic

17 started to behave arrogantly, and he started to scream at all those

18 present and said, "Why hasn't Vukovar fallen yet?"

19 Q. And what did they -- how did they respond to that?

20 A. I don't think anybody had an answer to his question.

21 Q. You mentioned that Mr. Stanisic wanted to see Hadzic and have a

22 meeting with him. Did that meeting actually take place at some point in

23 time and, if so, when and where?

24 A. Yes, the meeting did take place several hours later, as I've

25 already said, in the premises of the TO in Dalj. I think it was in the

Page 15180

1 afternoon. It might have been 2.00 or 3.00 in the afternoon. And the

2 meeting went on for quite some time.

3 Q. Who was present? Was Hadzic present during the meeting, and who

4 else, if you know?

5 A. Yes. Goran Hadzic did appear later on, and as I've already said,

6 all the commanders of the Territorial Defence; Mr. Slavko Dokmanovic and

7 the representatives of the special purpose units or, rather, Mr. Zavisic.

8 Q. Was anyone from the JNA present? Do you know?

9 A. Yes, there were representatives of the JNA present.

10 Q. What was the topic of the meeting?

11 A. As to the topic of the meeting, I can't be sure. I didn't attend

12 the meeting myself. But later on, I learnt that the meeting was being

13 held in order to liberate Vukovar as soon as possible.

14 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honours, for one question I would like

15 to go into private session.

16 JUDGE MAY: Yes.

17 [Private session]

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8 [Open session]

9 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session.

10 JUDGE MAY: We will have the exhibit number, please.

11 THE REGISTRAR: Prosecutor's Exhibit number 375, Your Honours.

12 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: And I would like to have the English version

13 on the ELMO.

14 Q. Witness, this is a letter dated the 23rd of September, 1991, from

15 the police station in Dalj, and you actually wanted to -- is that the

16 letter you saw?

17 A. Yes, that is the letter I saw.

18 Q. And can you now explain what had happened in Dalj and what is

19 described in the letter.

20 A. In this letter, it is stated that on the 21st of September, 1991,

21 around 1800 hours, the president of Slavonia, Baranja and Western Srem,

22 Goran Hadzic, came to the Dalj police station, together with Arkan and

23 about 20 of his men; that they released from detention, or prison, several

24 persons and that Arkan, with his men, took away, I think, 11. I don't

25 need to count them now. About 11 people, and that it is not known where

Page 15190

1 they are. Their whereabouts are unknown.

2 Q. Witness, in relation to the two persons that are listed here in

3 this letter as being released, did you -- did these people -- do you know

4 why they were released or did you find out subsequently that they were

5 actually safe and sound somewhere?

6 A. Yes. There were rumours circulating in the whole region as to why

7 those persons were released and that they are in the Republic of Croatia -

8 I don't know along which routes they got there - and that these were

9 persons who had quite a lot of money.

10 Q. Did -- did you actually verify these rumours or is that just --

11 did that remain a rumour to you?

12 A. I tried to verify, and all the people I spoke to told me that it

13 was true, that Arkan had taken maybe a million or even 2 million

14 Deutschmarks from them and that that is why they were released. But

15 later, in 1998 or 1999, when I was able to verify this continuing my work

16 in the Croatian police, the only thing I learnt was that those persons

17 were alive and that they are in the Republic of Croatia.

18 Q. We have here the list of people who were taken out.

19 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, I don't think we need to read

20 out the names now. These are the 11 persons.

21 Q. And did you ever find out what happened to them?

22 A. I did. Also many years later, as I was saying, in 1998 or 1999

23 when exhumations were being conducted in the area, I saw their names,

24 stating that they had been exhumed from a well in a location called

25 Celije.

Page 15191

1 Q. But at that time while you were working in the police in 1991, you

2 did not find out what had happened to these people; they were just gone.

3 Is that correct?

4 A. That's correct; i never found out.

5 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: I would like to go into private session now

6 because we have to continue with what happens with the letter, Your

7 Honours.

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24 [Open session]

25 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session.

Page 15193

1 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: And it is tab 2 of Exhibit 375.

2 Q. And I would like you to have a look at it. And we should also put

3 this document, the English version, onto the ELMO.

4 Witness, this is now an Official Note, and it's again from

5 Mr. Cizmic at the police station, and it is now referring to an event on

6 the 4th and 5th of October, 1991, involving again an abduction of a lot of

7 people that are listed here, from the police station by Arkan. And I

8 would like to know from you, first, have you seen this document at that

9 time in October 1991?

10 A. No. I've never seen this document.

11 Q. Given the format, and in particular when you look at the

12 signatures and who signs it, is that an authentic document?

13 A. It is.

14 Q. Do you recognise Mr. Cizmic's signature? Is that the usual

15 format?

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22 Q. And when you look at the bottom of this document, there is listed

23 who was supposed to get it, and it says here as number 2, Zavisic, special

24 unit commander. Is that the Zavisic that you mentioned and talked about?

25 A. Yes, that is Zavisic. And I also wanted to say that under number

Page 15194

1 1, that is me, to the secretary of the internal affairs, and who never

2 received this document.

3 Q. Witness, it is described here in this document how on the --

4 actually, around midnight of the 4th of October, 1991, Arkan took out

5 these 20 -- took out, with 20 of his men, a lot of people from the police

6 station. Did -- despite the fact that you did not know this document, did

7 you hear about the event?

8 A. Yes, only later, after the second event, after Hadzic and Arkan

9 came together and took away these men that are mentioned in that other

10 letter.

11 Q. And how did you learn about it? Were you informed by --

12 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, I think we have to go into

13 private session now.

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22 [Open session]

23 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: With the help of the usher, I would like to

24 put to the witness the Exhibit 327, tab 6, and it is the decision on the

25 appointment of government positions in the SAO. I actually have two

Page 15201

1 questions in relation to this document. It can be put on the ELMO in the

2 English version.

3 Q. Witness, you have mentioned Ilija Kojic a couple of times. It --

4 and I got the impression he had a lot of dealings with the police, but

5 here it says he's the Minister of Defence. Can you explain that? Did he

6 cover the police as well?

7 A. You could put it that way. He was the Minister of Defence only on

8 paper. In actual fact, all the police operations and everything that went

9 on and happened in the police, he was the superior and in command of all

10 of that.

11 Q. And number 15, Stevo Bojic. This person, it says here, "Minister

12 Without Portfolio." Did this person have a nickname, and what actually

13 was his function in relation to Hadzic and the government?

14 A. Yes. Well, I never met the man before the war. I didn't know

15 him. I met him first in Borovo Selo, and I know that he is a local, a

16 native of Borovo Selo, in fact. And that later on, by Mr. Hadzic, he was

17 appointed at the head of some sort of special unit or, rather, I don't

18 want to call it a unit. What it was was some ten men whose job it was to

19 see to Hadzic's needs and security.

20 Q. And has he the nickname Jajo?

21 A. I apologise. Yes, I forgot that. Yes, his nickname was indeed

22 Jajo.

23 Q. You have mentioned Mr. Hadzic and said you knew him well. What

24 was his position? What was his job before the war?

25 A. Mr. Hadzic worked on a factory farm in the village of Pacetina. I

Page 15202

1 think he was a warehouse clerk or something of that nature. He kept

2 records for warehouses, the stocks and so on.

3 Q. You said it was hard to find him when you wanted to find him in

4 October. Was he often absent and, if so, what did he do? Where did he

5 go?

6 A. Goran Hadzic spent most of his time in Novi Sad, but also he moved

7 around the country. The RSK at the time, as you know, was split, it was

8 divided, and that's how it remained until the end. So he would go to

9 Western Slavonia, for example, and Knin, the Knin area. But as I say, he

10 spend most of his time in Novi Sad.

11 Q. What was he doing in Novi Sad? Do you know that?

12 A. I can't say. I don't really know. I don't know what his role was

13 in Novi Sad.

14 Q. Did he also go to Belgrade, and if so, how would you know that?

15 A. Yes. The public information media were working at that time, and

16 -- but let me go back for a moment to Novi Sad. Almost every evening

17 Goran Hadzic would appear on television and he would present the state of

18 affairs in the RSK. And also on many occasions on television, you would

19 see him in Belgrade.

20 Q. Could you --

21 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: We need to go into private session, Your

22 Honour.

23 [Private session]

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7 --- Recess taken at 10.21 a.m.

8 --- On resuming at 10.46 a.m.

9 [Open session]

10 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Milosevic. Now, you'll remember that since

11 this witness is protected, any questions which may possibly lead to his

12 identification should be avoided, shouldn't be asked in open session,

13 should be asked in private session. So if in doubt, we'll go into private

14 session.

15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May, it's a very sensitive

16 subject, the one you've just pointed to, a sensitive issue, because the

17 only heritage of these modern times which differentiates what is happening

18 here to what happened in the Middle Ages is precisely the public character

19 of the proceedings but it seems that that distinction you are trying very

20 efficiently to eliminate.

21 JUDGE MAY: Now, Mr. Milosevic, that's absurd. Could you kindly

22 just get on with it. Ask your questions. You know the reasons that we

23 have these rules, and your kind of comments do not assist. Let's go on.

24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I am aware of the reasons, I know

25 them, but I must say that I don't always acknowledge them in that way

Page 15208

1 because this kind of practice allows many untruths to be uttered, and the

2 entire public knows that they are untruths. So to exclude the public does

3 not help us to arrive at the truth. But let's move on to the questions.

4 Cross-examined by Mr. Milosevic:

5 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. C-013, in your examination-in-chief, you

6 mentioned many alleged facts and information, and this after a space of 12

7 years, which you did not mention earlier on, even in the statement you

8 gave four years ago. So tell us the reason for that, please.

9 A. I did not understand what facts you mean. What were the facts

10 that were not presented four years ago? What are you referring to?

11 Q. Well, you mentioned some meetings that you attended that you don't

12 talk about in your statement, and you also mentioned that my name was

13 brought up, which I assume should be a very important fact and should be

14 found in your statement but it is not. So how come four years after you

15 gave the statement you suddenly come to this alleged new data and present

16 it in the examination-in-chief? What is the reason for that?

17 A. I can answer that question for you. At that time, I did not

18 consider this to be that important, and I didn't know that all this would

19 take place at this level.

20 Q. All right. The reason perhaps for which you have presented this

21 whole heap of, to put it mildly, untruths something that --

22 JUDGE MAY: Just pause there. You've made a point. The witness

23 should have the chance to answer it. If you're going to make these sort

24 of allegations, the witness should have the opportunity to deal with them.

25 What the accused says is that you have asked -- or your evidence

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Page 15210

1 is, as he puts it, "a heap of untruths." Now, is that so or not?

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That is absolutely not true.

3 Everything that I have said -- I took the solemn declaration to begin

4 with, so everything I have said is the truth.

5 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

6 Q. With your testimony, which I claim, as you've just heard, is --

7 contains a lot of untruths, is the reason for that, and there are many,

8 let me mention just a few of the possible reasons.

9 JUDGE MAY: I think it's probably wise, from previous experience,

10 if we now go into private session for this matter to be put.

11 [Private session]

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13 [Open session]

14 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session.

15 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

16 Q. So let me go back to this question. Do you know anything about

17 the formation, even before the HDZ came into power, of the 204th Brigade

18 of the National Guards Corps under the command of the new Ustasha,

19 Tomislav Mercep?

20 A. No.

21 Q. But you do know his name?

22 A. Yes, I do.

23 Q. And do you know that he committed crimes against Serbs with his

24 unit, unheard-of crimes and on a large scale in the area of Vukovar?

25 A. Only from stories. I didn't see anything myself.

Page 15221

1 Q. You didn't see anything. And who did you hear the stories from?

2 A. From people later on, after Vukovar fell.

3 Q. And did that information appear to you to be credible or not?

4 A. I have to say once again that I believe only what I see with my

5 own eyes.

6 Q. Very well. Is it true that the aggravation of the overall

7 situation in the whole of Croatia, including Vukovar, started after the

8 HDZ came into power in 1990?

9 A. Yes, that is true.

10 Q. And are you familiar with the decisions of the Croatian government

11 from the summer of 1990 which significantly contributed to the

12 deterioration of the situation? And, to be more precise, I'm referring to

13 the decision to form the National Guards Corps and the decision to start

14 illegally importing weapons from abroad.

15 A. No. I can say that I saw such reports only in the media.

16 Q. In your statement, when you say that the Serbs were being armed,

17 you say that you learnt from Croatian sources that the Croats had been

18 armed six months prior to that. Is that true or not?

19 A. Yes, partially so.

20 Q. And do you know that members of the National Guards Corps,

21 especially in that area, were mostly problematic and crime-prone types

22 elected by local boards of the HDZ and the Catholic church?

23 A. I hear that about the Catholic church for the first time. As for

24 the men and the character of those men, I agree with you up to a point.

25 Q. And do you know that the purpose of these forces that were formed

Page 15222

1 at the time as paramilitary forces was the forcible secession of the

2 Republic of Croatia from the SFRY?

3 A. That is up to politicians to decide whether that was secession or

4 not. That's all I can say.

5 Q. Very well. And do you know, are you familiar with this fact, that

6 parallel with the purchase of weapons and large-scale arming of these

7 units, at the same time the weapons of the reserve police force were being

8 taken from police stations in which the Serbs were in the majority?

9 A. You will have to explain that to me.

10 Q. It true that while on the one hand the National Guards Corps was

11 being armed and the police of Croat ethnicity was being enlarged, that

12 weapons were being taken and withdrawn from communities of Krajina in

13 which the Serb population had the majority?

14 A. Yes, I'm aware of that.

15 Q. And do you know that, because of the implementation of these

16 decisions, there was quite intensified activities to carry out personnel

17 changes according to ethnic criteria of the HDZ?

18 A. I'd rather not answer that question. I'm not qualified to answer

19 it.

20 Q. And had you heard of the conclusions and instructions of this same

21 Tomislav Mercep that after the elections in all local communities

22 personnel be appointed that support HDZ policies?

23 A. That is true.

24 Q. Since you were a citizen of Vukovar, do you know anything about

25 the activities in July and August 1990 of the HDZ in their own premises in

Page 15223

1 Vukovar, the Municipal Board and so on, and their decisions to start

2 forming volunteer detachments? Do you know anything about that?

3 A. You mean by the Croats?

4 Q. Yes.

5 A. No. I don't know anything about that.

6 Q. And do you know Marin Vidic?

7 A. Yes, I know the name.

8 Q. And this can be found in his statement. You don't know anything

9 about it nevertheless.

10 A. I really don't. In those days, this was a secret.

11 Q. And who was Marin Vidic?

12 A. I know him as a citizen of Vukovar, nothing more than that.

13 Q. Was he the deputy for Vukovar, appointed by the government in

14 Zagreb?

15 A. I don't know that. In those days when such things were happening,

16 the Serbs had already left Vukovar. This was happening during the war

17 operations.

18 Q. What I'm talking about was happening in 1990 when this arming took

19 place and even through legal bodies permits were obtained, as many permits

20 as possible, for the purchase of weapons. Do you remember that? [redacted]

21 [redacted].

22 A. You're mentioning 1990. You know that --

23 JUDGE MAY: We'll go into private session.

24 [Private session]

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6 [Open session]

7 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session now, Your Honours.

8 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

9 Q. Do you know anything about the consequences of the decisions of

10 HDZ in Vukovar in December to replace prominent people of Serb ethnicity

11 holding prominent positions in the area? Do you know anything about that?

12 A. Yes, I do.

13 Q. I will read to you parts of a letter by the representative of the

14 Croatian government for Vukovar, Marin Vidic, and you will tell me what

15 you know about what is stated here and whether you have anything to add or

16 to question from this letter in view of the knowledge that you have now or

17 had then. So he writes to Tudjman, to the Prime Minister, the Defence

18 Minister, the Minister of the Interior, his letter which says:

19 "With the appointment of Tomislav Mercep as secretary of the

20 municipal secretariat in Vukovar, the power has been usurped. Surrounded

21 by people of suspicious moral and professional qualities, former

22 criminals, they have taken over supervision over everything in Vukovar

23 municipality, not refraining from the use of force and reprisals against

24 the citizens of Vukovar (charging into people's homes, sending oral and

25 written permissions for people to move into those apartments, looting

Page 15228

1 apartments, seizure of private vehicles, public hearings, and even

2 executions). Upon the intervention of Mr. Manolic, Tomislav Mercep was

3 withdrawn to Zagreb allegedly to the position of assistant minister in

4 MUP. Policies applied so for have created a serious psychosis of fear

5 among the Croatian and Serbian population," et cetera.

6 So as we can see, this was a wave of violence, including

7 executions. This letter is dated the 18th of August, 1991, and it was

8 addressed by the representative of the Croatian government to the

9 following addresses.

10 What do you know --

11 JUDGE MAY: Let the witness answer this. It was not a letter he

12 can comment on, but he can comment on the contents.

13 Witness C-013, you've heard what's been read out. Is there any

14 comment that you would like to make about it as to whether it's true or

15 not or to what extent it's true?

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] What I can say is this: That was

17 the 18th of August 1991, and at that time I was not in Vukovar, and

18 everything I know in connection with this I learnt after 1992. This is

19 the same kind of information that I heard by people when they talked

20 amongst themselves and nothing more than that.

21 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

22 Q. All right. It is common knowledge that this HDZ council from --

23 replaced Dr. Rade Popovic, who was the head of the Vukovar Hospital, and

24 he was replaced by Dr. Vesna Bosanac. That is common knowledge.

25 A. Yes. But also, similarly, all this took place when I myself was

Page 15229

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Page 15230

1 not in Vukovar, and we ought to differentiate in time. After March 1991,

2 don't ask me anything about Vukovar, because I know very little about it.

3 I was not there.

4 Q. All right. But that entire region. This was a very important

5 institution. For example, Borovo, the largest factory in the area, the

6 director who was a Serb, Zdravko Egic, was replaced and Hasan Vladimir

7 took his place and was appointed director of the company.

8 So do you know of similar examples? I'm just quoting one example.

9 Do you know of other similar examples, where people were dismissed,

10 expelled, killed, there were executions, and it was their own man writing

11 about this? So do you know about the breadth and scope of --

12 JUDGE MAY: What the witness has said is that he doesn't know

13 about events at the period that you are asking, and he actually has said

14 that he can't answer any questions about it. So why don't we move on.

15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well.

16 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

17 Q. So does that mean that you know nothing about any kind of

18 violence, killings, or the crimes perpetrated against the Serbs in that

19 region during those particular months of summer and autumn of 1991.

20 A. Absolutely so. That refers both to the Serbs and the Croats, to

21 both sides. I never saw, not a single time with my own eyes that anybody

22 had killed anybody. So I don't think there's any need to discuss the

23 issue any more, or similar ones.

24 Q. All right. And did you hear that in the course of 1990, over 70

25 cases were recorded of physical attacks and violence against the members

Page 15231

1 of the JNA?

2 A. Which area do you mean?

3 Q. Well, that same area.

4 A. Against members of the JNA?

5 Q. Yes.

6 A. Well, that's quite untrue.

7 Q. All right. Fine. And do you know or did you ever hear of this:

8 That in February 1991, at an initiative meeting of the HDZ for Trpinjska

9 Cesta held in Borovo Naselje convened by Tomislav Mercep in his capacity

10 as the then president of the HDZ party and also the secretary for national

11 defence of Vukovar and that a decision was taken on the ethnic cleansing

12 of the Vukovar municipality?

13 A. No. And it would be absurd if I said I knew of a decision of that

14 kind. [redacted], and any actions of this

15 kind were done so that we should not learn of them.

16 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

17 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

18 Q. And do you happen to know that at that or similar meetings

19 representatives of the Croatian Sabor or Assembly would come in - Seks,

20 Glavas, et cetera - and where they would discuss the Independent State of

21 Croatia and the measures they were taking, the steps they were taking in

22 that regard?

23 A. No. Those meetings were secret too.

24 Q. Well, do you know anything at all about their cleansing

25 operations?

Page 15232

1 A. Absolutely nothing.

2 Q. Did you ever hear about the plan, the first stage to replace these

3 people from their posts; second, intimidation and expulsion from the

4 territory to make the Serbs leave the territory; and the third phase for

5 those who had not succumbed to the coercion of the first two phases, of

6 liquidation, the third was put into effect? Did you ever hear of a plan

7 of that kind?

8 A. Yes, through the media first, on television. It was publicly

9 broadcast.

10 JUDGE MAY: Who was broadcasting that plan?

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was broadcast over Television

12 Belgrade.

13 JUDGE MAY: Belgrade. Yes. Thank you.

14 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

15 Q. In your statement, you yourself say something about that, about

16 your knowledge of the fact that the Croatian extremists were busy arming

17 themselves. Isn't that right?

18 A. Yes. They were my personal observations.

19 Q. What did you say?

20 A. They were my personal observations and knowledge.

21 Q. All right. Now, you state that you did have certain knowledge

22 about that. Did you hear about the Zeljko Ostojic case, Zeljko Ostojic

23 being from Vukovar?

24 A. No.

25 Q. Did you hear about or later learn about the fact that Zeljko

Page 15233

1 Ostojic, at the end of 1990, testified to the security organs about the

2 formation and existence of groups for silent liquidation, as they were

3 called, and the intentions and plans of Glavas, Mercep and Zadar for the

4 joint cleansing of the Eastern Slavonia? Did you know anything about

5 that?

6 A. No. I really didn't.

7 Q. Did you hear perhaps later on that that same man, Veljko Ostojic,

8 was killed in his own flat just half an hour after the Spegelj film was

9 broadcast? That was between the 25th and 26th of January, 1991, and I

10 assume you saw that footage, the Spegelj tape.

11 A. Tell me, was the killing in Osijek? Is that where it took place?

12 Q. What did you say?

13 A. I said in Osijek. Did it take place in Osijek?

14 Q. Zeljko Ostojic was killed in his own flat.

15 A. Where?

16 Q. Well, I don't know but he's from the region. Probably in Osijek.

17 You're probably right there. Probably it took place in Osijek.

18 A. If that is the killing I'm thinking about, the killing in Osijek,

19 then I remember something from the information media. It was broadcast.

20 Q. And do you know that the Yugoslav state Presidency on the 9th of

21 January issued an order to disarm and disband all paramilitary formations

22 in Croatia and that this was never implemented?

23 A. Yes, I do know about that.

24 Q. And did you happen to hear or perhaps see that on the 10th of

25 March, 1991, from Borovo Naselje and the surrounding parts in the area, in

Page 15234

1 the region, in Bogdanovacka Dola, a review of paramilitary troops was

2 organised and that 2.000 people attended?

3 A. Yes. After the war, I saw a television programme about that, and

4 video footage was shown and made public.

5 Q. But at that time, you knew nothing about that; isn't that right?

6 A. Yes. That is absolutely correct.

7 Q. Could you please tell us what you know about the attack by the

8 Croatian police on the 2nd of May on Borovo Selo or, rather, the attack by

9 armed Croatian extremists on the 2nd of May on Borovo Selo? Just briefly.

10 What do you know about that event?

11 A. I know what other people said about it. On the 2nd of August,

12 1991, that they entered Borovo Selo from two directions and that fire was

13 opened on both sides simultaneously, both them from the vehicles and the

14 people who were out into the street, in the streets. Everybody had

15 weapons at that time. And I know that the army arrived and prevented any

16 further escalation in the conflict.

17 Q. All right. Let me remind you of what you said here during the

18 examination-in-chief yesterday, in fact. And please correct me if I'm

19 wrong, if I didn't make a correct note of it.

20 You said that on the 2nd of May, the Croatian police stormed

21 Borovo Selo and that 200 to 300 persons - that's what you said - that they

22 shot at the people and that many locals were killed. And then you were

23 asked whether the JNA intervened, and your response was, "Yes, the JNA did

24 come in and assist the Croatian police to withdraw from the village

25 because there was the danger of the conflict being continued and for more

Page 15235

1 casualties to be caused." Is that right?

2 A. Well, that's partially correct, Mr. Milosevic.

3 Q. Is that all you have to say about it, all you know about it? I've

4 just quoted what you said yesterday.

5 A. Well, could you ask me the same question? But I don't think we

6 ought to go back to that. I don't think it's that important, actually.

7 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, the quotations that were just

8 put to the witness are not correct. At least, not in its entirety. The

9 points in the statement are rather brief, and there was -- it speaks about

10 several local people were killed and members of the Croatian police, not

11 in this extent as it was now quoted to the witness was anything mentioned.

12 JUDGE MAY: No. There was -- my note has it that there was no

13 mention of many people being killed. My note, which I take to be a

14 paraphrase, was that several Croat police and local people were killed.

15 Is that right, Witness C-013?

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's right.

17 JUDGE MAY: You heard the summary which Mr. Milosevic read out of

18 your evidence on that particular incident. Is there anything you'd like

19 to add to it or was it in any way incorrect apart from that matter which

20 we've now corrected?

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think that the lady put right what

22 was stated incorrectly, and I think that that's it.

23 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

24 Q. All right. I quoted, in my opinion, an important fact which you

25 yourself stated yesterday, and that was that on the 2nd of May, the

Page 15236

1 Croatian police stormed the village and that there were 200 to 300 people

2 there. Is that right?

3 A. Yes, that's right.

4 Q. All right. Let's move on then. And is the following correct: On

5 that same occasion, almost simultaneously with what was going on in Borovo

6 Selo, from the Dalj axis, 350 Croatian forces launched an attack using

7 hand-held launchers and heavy artillery weapons and other weapons as well.

8 Do you know anything about that?

9 A. The figure that is being mentioned in Borovo Selo, this is a

10 combined number, which means those who came in from Borovo Naselje and

11 from the Dalj direction, and that would be between 200 and 300 people

12 altogether.

13 Q. And after that, were the Serbs arrested en masse and mistreated

14 and expelled?

15 A. At that time, I myself was in Bobota. So let me repeat: I wasn't

16 there and I don't actually know which area you're referring to, where.

17 Q. Well, the Borovo Selo area, Dalj, Vukovar; that general region.

18 Eastern Slavonia, in fact.

19 A. Well, I can see that you don't know this area very well, then,

20 from what you're saying, because you say the area of Borovo Selo, Dalj --

21 well, all right, Dalj is another matter. Dalj was under Croatian control.

22 But Borovo Selo, that wasn't feasible. And in Vukovar --

23 Q. Vukovar, Dalj, and other places under Croatian control where Serbs

24 were arrested en masse. They were abused and expelled. Did you hear

25 anything about that?

Page 15237

1 A. Only from the stories that were being told. As I say, I was in

2 the village of [redacted]. My movements were restricted, so I can't

3 say anything specific on that score.

4 Q. All right, then. In view of these attacks, which I hope are not

5 being disputed, is it logical that the inhabitants of the Serb villages

6 undertook different measures to defend themselves and organised village

7 watches, village guards, and saw to their own safety and security? Would

8 that being logical?

9 A. Let me say again that your information is not correct, because the

10 village watches had already been in existence for several months by that

11 time.

12 Q. So what did they do to protect themselves according to the best of

13 your knowledge?

14 A. What I said existed before, the village watches or village guards.

15 Q. Do you know that on the 7th of August there was an armed conflict

16 in Kostajnica and in the villages of the Vukovar municipality? And this

17 is quite a long way away from one another, and they took place at the same

18 time, when there was an escalation of violence in Croatia and when the

19 fighting was intensified in the surrounding parts of Vukovar. Do you know

20 anything about that?

21 A. As far as Kostajnica goes, I saw that all on television. And as

22 for the villages in the area, you'll have to tell me which villages you

23 mean.

24 Q. Well, do you know any of the villages? Do you know any villages

25 where on the 6th of August the violence became intensified against the

Page 15238

1 Serb population? Just say yes or no. If no, we can move on.

2 A. Well, I can't give you a yes or no answer. I want to clarify this

3 issue and be quite specific. So if you have any information about any

4 particular village, remind me.

5 Q. Do you know anything about that violence at all?

6 A. No, I don't.

7 Q. All right. Then just give me a no answer.

8 And do you know about the incident that took place on the 29th of

9 August when the members of the Croatian National Guard Corps stopped

10 vehicles carrying military materiel and moving to Belgrade, disarmed the

11 men and looted the equipment and arms? Do you remember that particular

12 incident?

13 A. No, I don't, I really don't.

14 Q. And do you remember another incident that took place on the 21st

15 of September, 1991, when 13 soldiers of the JNA were massacred in Karlovac

16 and their bodies butchered using axes? This took place on the bridge. Do

17 you remember that taking place??

18 A. Well, we can't call that an incident or event. I can only

19 consider something to have taken place -- I only consider an event

20 something that I saw, but let me say I saw that on television, and I do

21 remember it, yes.

22 Q. All right. Because you say that everything that went on against

23 the Serb population, you just have television reports and evidence. Do

24 you know that on the 1st of August, 1991, the Yugoslav state Presidency

25 concluded that the cease-fire was not ensured and that after the signing

Page 15239

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Page 15240

1 of the agreement for a truce and cease-fire, up until the 17th of

2 September, 263 attacks were launched against the JNA and its facilities?

3 This was common knowledge. These facts and figures were generally known

4 in Yugoslavia at that time. So did you hear about them?

5 A. Yes, I did.

6 Q. Right. So you heard about that, did you?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Do you then consider that the only legal armed force was the JNA

9 under the description -- under the conditions described, the only force

10 capable of protecting the population from the paramilitary, unlawful, and

11 illegal formations and units that were rampant in the region?

12 A. I completely agree with you, that's what they should have done,

13 yes. But as I say, should have. They did not do so.

14 Q. We'll come to that. We'll get to that later, because you spoke

15 about it. But tell me this: Do you know about the fact that due to the

16 deterioration in the situation, the Serb policemen decided to leave their

17 posts in the Vukovar SUP?

18 JUDGE MAY: Witness C-013, we'll consider that. It may be

19 sensible to go into private session before we go on.

20 JUDGE MAY: Mr. May --

21 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

22 [Private session]

23 [redacted]

24 [redacted]

25 [redacted]

Page 15241

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9 [redacted]

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12 [redacted]

13 [redacted]

14 [redacted]

15 [Open session]

16 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session.

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I do know about how the Serb

18 policemen left the police force in Vukovar.

19 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

20 Q. Now, based on your own knowledge. I'm not asking you in general

21 terms, but do you personally know whether it is true that the Croatian

22 authorities first of all cleared the internal affairs sector of Serbs and

23 suspicious Croats?

24 A. Your information is only partially correct.

25 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

Page 15242

1 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

2 Q. Could you clarify what is incorrect in that regard, then.

3 A. I can't give an answer to that question openly, publicly.

4 JUDGE MAY: Go into private session.

5 [Private session]

6 [redacted]

7 [redacted]

8 [redacted]

9 [redacted]

10 [redacted]

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12 [redacted]

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25 [redacted]

Page 15243

1 [redacted]

2 [Open session]

3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I put this question and let him

4 judge whether he can answer it in open or private session.

5 [Private session]

6 [redacted]

7 [redacted]

8 [redacted]

9 [redacted]

10 [redacted]

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Page 15251

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2 [redacted]

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5 [redacted]

6 [redacted]

7 [redacted]

8 [redacted]

9 [redacted]

10 [Open session]

11 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

12 Q. And do you remember when members of the National Guards Corps, on

13 the 20th of August, 1991, in the nuclear shelter, slaughtered two boys of

14 15 in the presence of 20 children and -- 20 women and small children?

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I should like to address His Honour,

16 if I may.

17 These are the same sort of questions about which I really no

18 nothing. I wasn't there at that time. There are piles of such

19 information, and this would lead us into the extreme.

20 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Well, it's the accused's practice to put as much

21 information as he claims he has to witnesses.

22 No point asking these questions. Let's move on to another topic.

23 Your time will be limited, Mr. Milosevic, and if you have any questions to

24 this witness about the evidence he gave - we don't seem to have had any in

25 the present hour and a half - you should ask him. Particularly if you

Page 15252

1 challenge anything which he says. You should be challenging that.

2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I challenge, certainly, and I assume

3 that you had occasion to hear all the things I have challenged, and I will

4 continue to challenge.

5 JUDGE MAY: All you've done is to put -- as far as I can see, is

6 to put a lot of allegations of what you claim happened to the Serbs. It's

7 your usual practice, I know, but it's time, maybe, that you should be

8 dealing with the evidence which the witness has given which is concerned

9 with events in this indictment.

10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] False indictment and false witnesses

11 go together. There's no question about that, Mr. May. I'm asking your

12 witness whether he knows the number of Croatian paramilitary units that

13 were engaged in the area at the beginning of 1991.

14 JUDGE MAY: He has given you his answer that he can't deal with

15 these events. Now, let's move on to something else that he can deal with.

16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Are we in private or in open

17 session?

18 JUDGE MAY: We're in open session now.

19 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

20 Q. And do you know that in the town of Vukovar and its immediate

21 vicinity there were 6.000 to 8.000 of these forces, paramilitary forces,

22 of the National Guards Corps and these criminals that had put on police

23 uniforms?

24 JUDGE MAY: When are you talking about?

25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I am talking about the year 1991,

Page 15253

1 the period that the witness has testified about.

2 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Let's get on to something else. I'm going to

3 stop this. It's pointless, these allegations which the witness can't deal

4 with. If you want to call your evidence, you could do so in due course,

5 but it's a waste of time putting to witnesses matters which they cannot

6 deal with. You may have your own reasons for doing it, in order to get

7 publicity, but as far as this court's concerned, if the witness can't deal

8 with it, it's a pointless exercise.

9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] This witness is saying what was

10 happening in Belgrade and Novi Sad, that he was not there and he can't

11 tell us what was happening in his immediate vicinity. So I find that

12 rather illogical, Mr. May.

13 JUDGE MAY: Well, we're going to adjourn now. Your time will be

14 limited, as you know quite well. We'll tell you how much time you've got

15 at the end of this, and I suggest you move on to some more relevant matter

16 when we come back.

17 Twenty minutes.

18 --- Recess taken at 12.12 p.m.

19 --- On resuming at 12.35 a.m.

20 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Milosevic.

21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May, I should now like to ask

22 this witness -- or rather, I'd like him to comment on certain issues which

23 emerge from his statements yesterday.

24 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

25 Q. Yesterday, you stated that somebody was transferring weapons

Page 15254

1 across the Danube River and that the weapons were in Borovo Selo but that

2 you don't know who was doing this transference; is that right?

3 A. Yes, I do know who did the transfer.

4 Q. Well, did you see it take place?

5 A. Yes, I did.

6 Q. What did you see? Did you see somebody transferring weapons?

7 A. I don't know what you mean by "transfer," the term "transferring."

8 Transporting, bringing in, taking away; that's what I saw.

9 Q. What did you see?

10 A. Well, I saw ships bringing in the weapons. I saw it being

11 unloaded and I saw where it was being stored.

12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Are we in open or private session,

13 Mr. May?

14 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.

15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well.

16 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

17 Q. Then I have to ask you this indirectly. You happened to mention a

18 name, the name of a man who was in charge of those weapons and allegedly

19 for their distribution. And when asked directly, your response was that

20 you didn't know him. Is that right or not?

21 A. No, that's not right.

22 Q. Well, later on, your answer was, when asked how do you know that

23 he told you that, told you what he said, and you said that a colleague of

24 yours told you but that you didn't know him.

25 A. That was just with respect to his official function. I later

Page 15255

1 learnt which post he held, which official post, but not his identity.

2 Q. Well, where was the man from, then?

3 A. He was from the MUP of Serbia.

4 Q. Was he an inhabitant or a native of or however you like to put it

5 of Eastern Slavonia or was he a man from Serbia?

6 A. He was a man from Serbia.

7 Q. And who told you that he was from the MUP of Serbia?

8 A. The people I was in contact with who were my superiors.

9 Q. All right. So who were your superiors? Who were these people

10 superior to you who explained it to you and told you?

11 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, that would be a matter for

12 private session.

13 JUDGE MAY: Yes, private session.

14 [Private session]

15 [redacted]

16 [redacted]

17 [redacted]

18 [redacted]

19 [redacted]

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10 [redacted]

11 [Open session]

12 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session.

13 JUDGE MAY: There are two matters I want to deal with. The first

14 is that there's been a change in the UN holiday in February. It's been

15 changed to the 11th from the 12th. We will have to change our hearings

16 accordingly. I hope the Prosecution can accommodate that.

17 MR. NICE: We've been alerted. We don't think it's a problem.

18 JUDGE MAY: Right. So we will be sitting on the 12th now, but not

19 on the 11th.

20 The other matter, Mr. Milosevic, is you raised a matter concerning

21 a newspaper article in which there was a comment by Mr. Wladimiroff. That

22 newspaper article, Wall Street Journal, has been shown to us. We do not

23 consider the comment as significant. There's no evidence as to where it

24 came from. In any event, it has absolutely no bearing on this case and no

25 action is necessary.

Page 15294

1 Mr. Nice, you wanted to raise a matter?

2 MR. NICE: Yes, I have to raise something. Nothing to do with the

3 present witness at all but perhaps --

4 JUDGE MAY: No, he can't go. He can't go.

5 Witness C-013, if you don't mind waiting a moment.

6 MR. NICE: The position is that a forthcoming witness has been

7 facing a -- very well. Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff would prefer this witness to

8 withdraw, and I can understand why.

9 JUDGE MAY: Yes.

10 [The witness withdrew]

11 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Nice.

12 MR. NICE: A forthcoming witness has been facing a very serious

13 difficulty. I'm not in a position to give you very much detail because

14 it's not possible to communicate other than with the accused being

15 present. I think that's a procedure that, of course, serves his

16 legitimate interest but on certain occasions may serve others.

17 The position is that notification had been given of the needs of

18 this witness for protective measures. It was made clear in the course of

19 that application that the need arose not from fear that the witness had

20 for himself or herself but for his or her children. That information was

21 available only to the limited number of the OTP dealing with the witness.

22 So the Court, its officers, the amici, and the accused, within a day of

23 that information being provided in those circumstances, of those anxieties

24 being communicated to the Court, threats from an all-too dangerous source

25 were communicated to the witness via the spouse of the witness, focusing

Page 15295

1 exactly on what had been the concerns, namely, the children.

2 The witness, in consequence, is in great fear, is no longer

3 available to us or, in reality, for it is often said these are witnesses

4 of the Court, to the Court.

5 Yet again, the reality is revealed that there are forces at work

6 impeding evidence coming before this Court.

7 In the circumstances, as the Court is unable to hear directly from

8 the witness today in the absence of the accused, I hope that the Court

9 will accept the view formed by those dealing with the witness is that the

10 witness has changed completely from a willing witness to one whose mind is

11 affected by real and substantial fear. Further information may follow in

12 writing.

13 JUDGE MAY: We will just confer. Just a moment, Mr. Milosevic.

14 Time is short. We have to be out of here. I can say that we take these

15 matters extremely seriously indeed. The reference was to something that

16 was said in closed session.

17 MR. NICE: Of course. Yes, closed session.

18 [Trial Chamber confers]

19 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Mr. Milosevic, we can hear very briefly about

20 this, but as you recognise, this is a serious matter indeed, with people

21 being threatened in this way.

22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All I'm interested in is the change

23 in the schedule. Is the schedule and order of witnesses being changed?

24 Because it is absolutely excluded that any information may leak from me or

25 my associates. I gave you my word that none of my associates would do any

Page 15296

1 such thing, and that is much firmer than any rule that you may have

2 established. So it's up to you to find out who engages in such dirty

3 work.

4 All I'm interested in is the list of witnesses, as it's Friday

5 tomorrow, and we have surprises every week as to who the next witnesses

6 will be. I don't even know which witness you're talking about here.

7 JUDGE MAY: We'll deal with that, and we shall certainly order

8 that the most thorough investigation takes place as to how this matter --

9 how this information could possibly have got out.

10 And as for the list of witnesses, can you help us on that?

11 MR. NICE: For reasons that will be obvious to the Court, it's

12 better that it comes in a letter this afternoon.

13 JUDGE MAY: Yes.

14 MR. NICE: Because after all, the operation of threats is an

15 operation that has an effect on the order of witnesses.

16 JUDGE MAY: Yes, of course, but I think the accused has got to

17 know what he's to prepare for. You've got a list.

18 MR. NICE: He will be told before he leaves court. We will ensure

19 that happens.

20 JUDGE MAY: We have a list of the 24th of January. No doubt he

21 should prepare for all the witnesses who are on that list.

22 MR. NICE: I will get communication to him directly by the court

23 officers as to who he should prepare for for tomorrow.

24 JUDGE MAY: Very well. We will adjourn now.

25 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.53 p.m.,

Page 15297

1 to be reconvened on Friday, the 31st day of

2 January, 2003, at 9.00 a.m.

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