Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 18383

1 Wednesday, 2 April 2003

2 [Open session]

3 [The witness entered court]

4 [The accused entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 9.12 a.m.

6 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Nice.

7 WITNESS: WITNESS B-071 [Resumed]

8 [Witness answered through interpreter]

9 Examined by Mr. Nice: [Continued]

10 Q. B-071, yesterday we started to look at a map.

11 MR. NICE: Can it now be produced. It's going to be Exhibit

12 336/71A.

13 And if the Chamber has it in the same form that I have, it's

14 copied on two sides. It's an extract from our standard atlas, with

15 markings by the witness.

16 Q. Very swiftly, because I don't want to take unnecessary time when

17 you've given the evidence orally, does this map show, starting on the

18 first side at number 1 near Mrkonjic, the various places where you were

19 held: First, Mrkonjic Grad; then the second place marked, hard to read

20 just to the south of Trnovo; the third place to the north of that, the

21 fourth place up on the right-hand side at Prnjavor; and then over the

22 page, the fifth place, Derventa?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Paragraph 10, page 4. I asked you yesterday about senior soldiers

25 visiting the barracks Zdravko Pcelar at Derventa.

Page 18384

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Think back and tell us of the most senior generals that you saw

3 visit there by name.

4 A. I remember Momir Talic, Slavko Lisica - the former Major Lisica

5 Slavko - Bosko Pejovic, lieutenant colonel.

6 Q. Do you remember any other generals who visited there, please?

7 A. I do remember, but I've just forgotten just now.

8 Q. In the summer of 1995, paragraph 11, were people cleaning the

9 streets in Derventa town to which, as you told us yesterday, you had

10 general access? Were you there by coincidence when an event happened

11 involving Arkan's military policemen?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. What was that? What happened?

14 A. When I left the barracks compound to have a walk, people were

15 cleaning the streets, and I was there when Arkan's army turned up. I just

16 noticed a Chevrolet, a black one, and they were taking -- collecting up

17 people from the street, and they were deserters, looking for deserters.

18 Q. Where were they taken?

19 A. They were taken in the direction of Prijedor.

20 Q. Were you included in those who were picked up?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. You having no papers on you at the time?

23 A. No.

24 Q. Having been picked up in that way, what happened to you? Were you

25 put to work in a unit?

Page 18385

1 A. Yes.

2 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please repeat his answer.

3 JUDGE MAY: Could you repeat that, please, for the interpreters.

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] When Arkan's army collected us up,

5 we worked for Arkan's army. We went to the battlefront, carried

6 ammunition, helped in the kitchen, that kind of thing.


8 Q. And the name of the unit of which you were now a member was what?

9 A. The Serb Volunteer Guards.

10 Q. Was there a unit by the name of Partizaneri?

11 A. Yes. That was a work obligation unit.

12 Q. Did you work in that unit or not?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Did you have a uniform provided at this time?

15 A. Yes, I did. I had a camouflage uniform but without any insignia.

16 Q. And no beret and no weapon?

17 A. No. No.

18 Q. Were you paid at all?

19 A. No.

20 Q. After a short time in Prijedor, were you relocated or located to

21 the area of Mrkonjic Grad and the village of Mala Manjaca?

22 A. Yes.

23 MR. NICE: Perhaps the witness can now have on the overhead

24 projector Exhibit 336/71B, another marked page from our standard atlas.

25 Q. And does this marked map, marked by you, show movements of Arkan's

Page 18386

1 Tigers starting at Derventa, moving to Prijedor, and then we can see

2 further down Mrkonjic Grad, so that we've covered the first three

3 locations?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Your knowledge of and experience of Arkan's units enabled you to

6 tell us, please, how they were divided. What were the subdivisions of his

7 paramilitary formation?

8 A. Well, for example, he had a special purposes unit. Then he had

9 his tank people and the artillery, mortars and snipers, professional ones.

10 And he had intervention units, that kind of thing.

11 Q. Was there a military police unit?

12 A. Yes. They wore black uniforms.

13 Q. A reconnaissance unit?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And a communications unit?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. The ranks used by Arkan's Tigers, were they similar to or

18 different from the normal military ranks?

19 A. Well, mostly they were different ranks.

20 Q. To what other military organisation did the ranks in his formation

21 most correspond?

22 A. Like, for example, the army of Republika Srpska but different

23 names. They were called differently. For example, lance corporals in the

24 Srpska Republika army was a corporal in his army. That was the name of

25 the ranks.

Page 18387

1 Q. Have you ever likened the formation of Arkan's unit to any foreign

2 military force?

3 A. Well, yes. There were some others there, other insignia, like the

4 Eagles and the Milicija, militia.

5 Q. Very well. As to uniforms, you've told us about the camouflage

6 uniforms. Were they NATO in style?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. The officers, what colour were their uniforms?

9 A. They wore camouflage uniforms in two parts. Two-piece.

10 Q. Were there any solid-colour uniforms, uniforms of a single colour

11 worn?

12 A. There were green uniforms with the garrison, and they were the

13 tank unit soldiers that wore them.

14 Q. What did the officers wear when they were not on active manoeuvre?

15 What colour uniforms did they wear?

16 A. Camouflage NATO uniforms, two-piece, red berets, and so on.

17 Q. What colour berets did the ordinary soldiers and non-commissioned

18 ranks wear?

19 A. The non-commissioned officers wore red with black berets.

20 Q. Were soldiers and officers equipped with automatic weapons?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. The soldiers having what kind of weapons, typically?

23 A. Automatic weapons.

24 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please repeat the type of

25 weapon.

Page 18388

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Snipers, Hecklers, Scorpios, et

2 cetera.


4 Q. The officers usually had what type of weapons?

5 A. Automatic weapons and pistols.

6 Q. Any particular make of automatic weapon?

7 A. Well, they did have some weapons, but I'm not well-versed in the

8 types of weapons. F-16, I think.

9 Q. Were there military jeeps available?

10 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please repeat his answer.

11 We're finding it difficult to follow.

12 JUDGE MAY: Could you repeat the answer, please.

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They were mostly all civilian cars,

14 but they were just painted the black.

15 MR. NICE:

16 Q. Were there any jeeps that you can recall?

17 A. With a tiger on the door. Pajero jeeps, Nissan, Mercedes.

18 Q. Were there any accounts of where these vehicles that Arkan's units

19 used had come from?

20 A. They were all taken from the surroundings of Vukovar. Slavonski

21 Brod, Vukovar.

22 Q. Were Arkan's men divided within themselves as between Tigers and

23 something called Super Tigers?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Who were the Tigers? Who were the Super Tigers? What defined

Page 18389

1 them?

2 A. Tigers were ordinary Tigers from 1992 onwards, whereas the Super

3 Tigers were from 1991, from the attacks on Slavonia, and they had

4 different patches on their sleeves.

5 Q. Did some of those men tell you about operations they'd been on?

6 Did they say where they'd been in operation?

7 A. Not in Bosnia, but they spoke about Erdut and Vukovar.

8 Q. Did they tell you anything about operations in Bosnia, please?

9 A. They spoke of Bosanski Samac, Bijeljina, Zvornik.

10 Q. And you've described --

11 A. -- remember any more.

12 Q. [Previous translation continues]... because that's where the

13 vehicles came from. In telling you of these operations, did the soldiers

14 concerned say anything about whether people had been killed in the course

15 of these operations?

16 A. Not in Bosnia. They didn't make any mention of any such thing.

17 Q. Did they make any such mention of any such things in any other

18 such places?

19 A. Yes, in Vukovar, when we came to Erdut.

20 Q. Did the Super Tigers appear to have privileges over and above the

21 ordinary Tigers?

22 A. They had different documents.

23 Q. Did they have any other privileges about when they had to parade

24 and matters of that sort?

25 A. They didn't have to line up. They would come to the camp compound

Page 18390

1 drunk. They would harass the other soldiers. If someone made a mistake,

2 he would be disciplined by being beaten with a truncheon, tied to a

3 lamppost, poured water over them in the middle of winter, and things like

4 that. Those were the measures of discipline.

5 Q. The Tigers and Super Tigers, can you look, please, at this exhibit

6 which will be on the screen, Exhibit 349, tab 2 and tab 8.

7 Do you recognise if that's -- that's tab 2, yes. Do you recognise

8 that patch?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. What is it?

11 A. This is the patch of the Serbian Volunteer Guards. This was borne

12 by regular soldiers from 1992 onwards.

13 And this also is a Tiger patch.

14 Q. Very well. Can we look --

15 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Nice, the previous one, was that tab 2 or tab 3?

16 MR. NICE: Tab 3. I'm grateful. Previously tendered through

17 B-1738. Thank you very much.

18 JUDGE KWON: If the witness can tell the difference between tab 4

19 and tab 8.

20 MR. NICE: Can you bring up tab 4, please.

21 Q. This is tab 4, and then tab 8, please. What's the difference

22 between --

23 JUDGE KWON: No. Tab 8. A tiger but different colour.

24 MR. NICE:

25 Q. Just one minute, please.

Page 18391

1 JUDGE KWON: This is tab 4, and this is tab 8.

2 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, Your Honour.


4 Q. [Previous translation continues]... Tiger patches, please.

5 A. The difference is in the colour. And these were worn by the Super

6 Tigers. They're different in colour.

7 Q. His Honour may want to know which one, or was it both -- if only

8 one, which one was worn by the Super Tigers?

9 A. This one.

10 Q. And the other one? Go back to the other one, please.

11 And was this one worn by --

12 A. This was worn by Tigers who joined from 1992 and onwards.

13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May.

14 JUDGE MAY: Yes.

15 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please. Microphone.

16 JUDGE MAY: They haven't got the microphone.

17 THE ACCUSED: Yesterday I got instruction to press the button

18 here.

19 [Interpretation] I understand that this is a protected witness,

20 among other things by voice distortion, but I wish to draw attention to

21 the fact that the distortion is such, is so extreme, that his speech is

22 totally incomprehensible, and that is why, as you see, the interpreters

23 are having a problem too. So could the technical department distort the

24 voice in such a way that he is -- that he is comprehensible? We are just

25 hearing muttering noises.

Page 18392

1 MR. NICE: He doesn't have voice distortion.

2 JUDGE MAY: There's no voice distortion, I'm told, in his case.

3 We'll try and get the witness to speak as clearly as he can, and we'll put

4 -- yes, put the second microphone on. If you put his second microphone

5 on, it may help.

6 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness perhaps move away from the

7 microphone just a little bit.

8 JUDGE MAY: What is suggested is that you move a bit further from

9 the microphone. Could you move a bit further away. We'll see how we get

10 on.

11 MR. NICE:

12 Q. Concluding the patches for the time being, did they wear different

13 patches on each shoulder?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. So this one -- we'll move to the next one. And that one would be

16 on the same soldier but on different sides of his body; is that correct?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Just going back to one topic: You were telling us about the cars

19 that were available to Arkan's men, a black car with a tiger on the door.

20 Did you ever travel in such a car yourself?

21 A. Yes, but mostly in vans and jeeps. And all these vehicles had

22 certain markings on them. Only the official vehicle used by Arkan had no

23 markings on it.

24 Q. And these marked vehicles, did you ever travel with them across

25 the border of Serbia?

Page 18393

1 A. Yes, I did. I travelled in a kombi van.

2 Q. Any difficulties in crossing that border, or was it easy to do?

3 A. There were no problems. Arkan's guards had an advantage

4 everywhere. They could move around Republika Srpska, Vukovar, Serbia.

5 The way they behaved, they could go around anywhere.

6 Q. The jeeps, where was it said that they had come from?

7 A. I don't understand. Could you explain, please?

8 Q. Yes. You've told us where the cars came from, but where did the

9 jeeps -- you've now told us there were jeeps. Where had those jeeps come

10 from? Where had they been obtained?

11 A. From Belgrade mostly.

12 Q. Mr. B-071, you have produced in your statement and now reproduced

13 as a separate exhibit a list of Tigers by name where you know the name, or

14 a part name where you only know part of the name. That is tab 1 in this

15 exhibit.

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Exhibit 416.

18 MR. NICE: Your Honour, the list itself, which can be placed on

19 the overhead projector, there's no problem with that, is of 93 names.

20 There's a colour-coded version which I have.

21 Can we place the English version on the overhead projector? And

22 can we provide a B/C/S version to the witness, Usher, please.

23 Your Honour, I'm going to read out from the list about 20 names in

24 order that they can be on the LiveNote record not least for searching

25 purposes but also because they're important names.

Page 18394












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13 English transcripts.













Page 18395

1 Q. B-071, have you identified from this general list of names --

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. -- those who are or were to your knowledge Super Tigers?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. I'm going to read some names and I want you to say yes if it be

6 the case that these are all Super Tigers. Number 2, Darko, also known as

7 Ludilo?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Number 9, Mirko, also known as Siki or Cale?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Number 10, Nedeljko, also known as Niski?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Number 11, Srdjan, also known as Duma?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Number 13, Zoran from Bosanski Novi?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Number 14, another Zoran, also known as Mali Rambo?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Number 22, Zoran, also known as Cobe?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Number 25, somebody known as Hans, an NCO who was injured in

22 battles at Mrkonjic Grad?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Staying with the list of Super Tigers, going to number 38, was

25 there somebody called or known as Valjevac, captain?

Page 18396

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. 39, Veliki Rambo?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. 41, somebody known as Zizi, a military policeman?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. 43, Agbaba Dragoslav, from Vukovar?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. 47, Mile Dragutinovic?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. These are all Super Tigers?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Number 51, Branko Gluscevic?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. 53, Miroslav Grmusa?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. 58, Zvonko Matijevic?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. 59, Dusko Nikolic, also known as Dule?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. 61, Djordje Opsenica?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. 63, Miroslav Sarac?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. 64 Radomir Trojanovic?

25 A. Yes.

Page 18397

1 Q. Dragan Zaric, also known as Jerry?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And on the last page, the last six Super Tigers: 78, Goran

4 Kuvelja, from Montenegro?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. 79, Mladen Lukic, also known as Boske?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. 80, Veselin Plavsic, also known as Veso?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. 86, somebody known as Dijabola?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. 88, somebody known as Laki?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And finally 91, Igor whose full name you didn't know but he was

15 also known as Trubac?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. And those are the Super Tigers, and then there are just six other

18 names --

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. -- of -- six other names, Your Honour, that have already been

21 mentioned in the testimony of other witnesses, and I'll draw them to your

22 attention. Starting on the second sheet, number 26, was there a Tiger

23 known as Kaljavi, later killed in Bosanski Novi?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Number 28, was there a Tiger known as Legija from the French

Page 18398

1 Foreign Legion, an instructor who runs a discotheque, or did at the time

2 of your statement, Zambi in Belgrade, and had a tattoo of a rose on the

3 right side of his neck?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Number 37, a man known as Suca or Suco who was present in Erdut

6 and was a sniper?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Over the page to 62, a man called Nikola Saponja, born in Mostar,

9 one of Arkan's bodyguards --

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. -- karate champion?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. And his brother Miroslav Saponja was involved in the security or

14 construction staff in Belgrade; is that correct?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. 65, Mile Ulemek, from Dalj, head of the communications unit?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And finally number 75, Goran Bozovic, also known as Raja, who had

19 a position with the state security and was a frequent visitor to Arkan at

20 his party headquarters?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. B-071, with an eye to the exhibit showing the movement of Arkan's

23 men, were you in September 1995 relocated from Prijedor to Mala Manjaca

24 near Mrkonjic Grad, and was it there that you saw Arkan on an occasion?

25 A. Yes.

Page 18399

1 Q. Were all soldiers lined up and did he address them?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Roughly how many Tigers were there?

4 A. His unit numbered 1.000 and a little over, men.

5 Q. On this occasion, what did he say to his men, did he talk about?

6 A. When we arrived in Mrkonjic, he said that Jasenova Kosa had to be

7 captured and that that same day they had to move on to the front. A

8 feature had to be captured.

9 Q. Yes. Was there another unit there as well as his Tigers?

10 A. I saw a unit with "milicija" on their sleeves, wearing blue

11 camouflage uniforms and some with round patches like White Eagles.

12 Q. Did you see Arkan speaking to the commanders of those two other

13 units; and if so, who appeared to be in charge?

14 A. It appeared to me that Arkan was the main boss and that everyone

15 was listening to his orders.

16 Q. Can we look now, please, at Exhibit 349, tab 10. What is this the

17 patch of?

18 A. The White Eagles.

19 Q. 349, tab 11.

20 A. The police of Krajina.

21 Q. During the operation that Arkan had spoken of, your function was

22 to do what?

23 A. I don't understand.

24 Q. My mistake. What were you doing in the course of the operation of

25 which Arkan spoke? What job did you do?

Page 18400

1 A. I carried ammunition where necessary. For instance, grenades for

2 mortars. And I carried food. And this was packed food from NATO, the

3 kind of food that the UN soldiers in Bosnia are using.

4 Q. On the 3rd of October of 1995, did something happen to one of

5 Arkan's Tigers, Djordje Djekic?

6 A. Yes. He was killed there in Perici. That's the name of the

7 location.

8 Q. Were three opposing soldiers captured?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Did you see what happened to one of those soldiers at the hands of

11 a Tiger called Glisa?

12 A. He caught him, stripped him to his underwear, hit him with his

13 rifle butt on his legs and eventually he stuck his bayonet into his back,

14 and he left him there lying in the yard.

15 Q. Did that man die?

16 A. I don't know what happened to him. He was lying there on the

17 ground.

18 Q. Were you shown a knife afterwards?

19 A. Yes. He showed me that knife. There was an inscription on it.

20 As far as I can remember, it said "Ivo Bakovic" on it, and he asked me

21 whether I knew the man, and I said no.

22 Q. Is that apparently the man who had been knifed in the back by

23 Glisa?

24 A. No, I didn't know that man.

25 Q. What ethnicity was the man who had been knifed in the back by

Page 18401

1 Glisa?

2 A. I don't know whether he was a Muslim or a Croat, because he would

3 take the documents immediately and hand them over to the commander.

4 Q. On the following day, was Arkan informed of the death of his

5 soldier Djordje Djekic?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Were two captured soldiers brought to the village of Peric in

8 Mrkonjic Grad when Arkan arrived?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. What happened to those two captured soldiers?

11 A. One survived and the other one, when Arkan got out of his jeep, he

12 took out his pistol and shot him in the head.

13 Q. On the 5th of October of 1995, did Arkan's unit suffer some losses

14 in the battle, and were you injured yourself?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Were you taken to barracks at Mladen Stojanovic in Banja Luka?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Where did you discover the seriously wounded Tigers were taken for

19 treatment?

20 A. They were taken to Serbia for treatment, those who lost a leg or

21 an arm and had other serious injuries.

22 Q. Were they taken by helicopter?

23 A. Yes, from Banja Luka.

24 Q. You've spoken already of Arkan's discipline in part. I think you

25 mentioned people being tied to a flagpole and beaten. Did he employ

Page 18402

1 solitary confinement as punishment?

2 A. For instance, there were cases that people would be shut up for

3 three days as punishment, without being given food or water. It all

4 depended on the punishment.

5 Q. And at ordinary eating times, were soldiers allowed to talk one to

6 another or not?

7 A. No.

8 Q. And did Arkan himself ever physically hit or slap people under his

9 apparent command?

10 A. It would happen that he would come angry, nervous. He would lose

11 in gambling and then he would slap an officer, a non-commissioned officer,

12 out of fury.

13 Q. Very well. Can we now move, as I think you did, to Erdut. Is

14 that right?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. We look at the map that you have yourself drawn, tab 2. For

17 future reference or for this reference, does this map show us the location

18 of the Erdut centre --

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. -- in juxtaposition with the kiosk and the gas station, the sugar

21 refinery, and the road to Vukovar?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Thank you. That's for future reference, if helpful.

24 When you arrived in Erdut, were you recovering from your wounds?

25 A. I hadn't recovered fully. I stayed in Vukovar for two or three

Page 18403

1 days in order to recover.

2 Q. But -- and in Erdut, how many Tigers were there there when you

3 arrived?

4 A. When I arrived, there weren't that many. About 300 soldiers,

5 perhaps.

6 Q. Was there one incident that you were involved in concerning a

7 well?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. You've drawn a map of this, a redacted form of which may go on the

10 overhead projector and is tab 3.

11 While that's being made available, what was your job at the well?

12 A. My task was to cover up the well with earth and to cover it up

13 with branches so as to conceal it.

14 Q. Was one of the men working there Radomir Trojanovic?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. What did he tell you of the well, why you were covering it up and

17 so on?

18 A. I was wondering why we were doing this, and he said it was a mass

19 grave formed there in Vukovar and that we had to conceal it so it wouldn't

20 be noticeable.

21 Q. When you say a mass grave formed there in Vukovar, containing

22 people killed where? Killed in Vukovar?

23 A. Most probably they were residents of Vukovar or maybe Erdut, Dalj,

24 the places around there.

25 Q. Did he say from what year or years these bodies had come, when

Page 18404

1 they'd been killed?

2 A. 1991.

3 Q. We can see the map again for reference. It's some distance from

4 Erdut, and the way you've marked it, it's south and east of the Danube

5 River. There's corn fields. You've identified where the soil came from,

6 and you've identified a house with some evergreen trees and other

7 features.

8 How near to or far from the nearest village or town was this well?

9 A. There was a village right there, and this was the house in the

10 village.

11 Q. And the village was the village of?

12 A. I can't remember. I don't know.

13 Q. Very well. Radomir Trojanovic told you about these bodies coming

14 from Vukovar in 1991. Did other Tigers or Super Tigers tell you of

15 previous wartime experiences?

16 A. Well, for example, they would come drunk and recount stories of

17 how they killed people around Vukovar, and children weren't spared either.

18 They did everything they shouldn't have done.

19 Q. Thank you. In March of 1996, did the Tigers of Arkan leave Erdut

20 and go to Djeletovci?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And when there, were they stationed beside or together with the

23 forces of another group?

24 A. There was another group there, and they were the Skorpios.

25 Q. And they were under the command of whom?

Page 18405












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Page 18406

1 A. Ljuba Mauzer, as I heard it, a man called Ljuba Mauzer.

2 Q. He came from which town?

3 A. I don't know.

4 Q. Were the Skorpions similar in their discipline and equipment to

5 the Tigers?

6 A. Yes. They had the same uniform. It was a camouflage NATO

7 uniform, two pieces, and overalls with the two zips.

8 Q. Did they seem to be similarly disciplined and controlled to the

9 way in which Arkan's Tigers were disciplined and controlled?

10 A. Yes, we could conclude that. They weren't allowed to get drunk.

11 They weren't allowed to do what they weren't supposed to do. They would

12 have to line up to get food.

13 Q. Very well. When the Tigers left Erdut, was there any looting by

14 them?

15 A. Yes. They would take windows and doors from houses, for example,

16 everything that could be used. Everything would be taken out and loaded

17 up onto trucks.

18 Q. And those trucks took the looted property where?

19 A. They were taken off towards Serbia, to Belgrade.

20 Q. Do you know to which particular location?

21 A. I know it was close to Belgrade. They had a warehouse there.

22 Q. Was one of the Tigers Veliki Rambo who you've already spoken of?

23 A. Yes. He was the main -- in charge of the mines in Arkan's team.

24 Q. What did he do when property at Erdut was looted?

25 A. He occupied the weekend homes of people.

Page 18407

1 Q. Very well. Did Arkan's Tigers finally withdraw to Serbia?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. To Belgrade?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Were you now given a military booklet?

6 A. Yes, when I came to Belgrade.

7 Q. Did you carry on working for Arkan? If so, where?

8 A. I worked in his bakery called the Golden Crown or Zlatna Kruna,

9 across the road from the stadium.

10 Q. Did you get paid or did you just get accommodation and food?

11 A. I was paid the first two months, but afterwards I was just given

12 food and lodging.

13 Q. In 1997, did Arkan ask for your military booklet back, and

14 everybody else's?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Did he make another request of you and of others?

17 A. Well, for example, he asked -- he came to us nicely at his party

18 headquarters and asked whether we would like to go to the Republika Srpska

19 or whether we preferred to remain in Yugoslavia. And depending on the

20 decision people made, some people left, some people stayed. I decided to

21 go back to Republika Srpska to see what had happened to my relatives.

22 Then he took my military booklet, gave me a driver, and said, "Well, go to

23 Doboj then."

24 Q. Were you taken home or somewhere else?

25 A. They took me to Doboj, drove me to Doboj, and the Kamenolom, the

Page 18408

1 prison there. It was a civilian prison at the quarry.

2 Q. And were you then detained in that prison rather than being taken

3 home as had been arranged?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. In that prison, were you or did you in due course sign a piece of

6 paper?

7 A. Yes. I had to sign a piece of paper testifying that I had

8 committed a murder, that I had killed a man.

9 Q. Any truth in that?

10 A. No.

11 Q. How long did you stay in the prison?

12 A. About one year.

13 Q. Escaping in due course with the assistance of a guard, I think?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And on escape, were you able to walk home to Banja Luka? Or walk

16 to Banja Luka, in any event?

17 A. Yes. I arrived at Banja Luka and Crna Rijeka.

18 Q. Just a few more questions, B-071. In Erdut, did you notice the

19 type of visitors that Arkan received and where they came from, as judged

20 by their car registration plates?

21 A. They would come -- for example, cars would come. There were some

22 Audis, the dark type of Audi car. And then the people would wear civilian

23 clothes, suits and ties. I remember one such man. There were some

24 diplomatic registration plates or the BG, Belgrade licence plates.

25 Q. Thank you. Paragraph 27. While you were in Djeletovci, did you

Page 18409

1 form some conclusions from your observations about whether Arkan had any

2 connections with the Belgrade DB?

3 A. Well, for example, on one occasion when we were going back from

4 Djeletovci where we cut down the forest for Arkan's bridge there, we

5 encountered two policemen. They were wearing uniforms. And at that --

6 and we were stopped and asked whether we had anything to do with the

7 commander because he had a package for the commander. He took up his

8 Motorola and called 99, which was their commander's signal, the

9 connection, communication, and he sent two vehicles and took off -- took

10 away the package towards Djeletovci.

11 Q. Are you also aware of an incident in March or April of 1996,

12 shortly before you left for Belgrade, when there was a shipment that

13 arrived for Arkan in a refrigerated truck?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. The people in the van -- sorry. The truck had licence plates from

16 which country?

17 A. I couldn't see the licence plates, but from Serbia.

18 Q. Very well. The people with the truck dressed in what uniform?

19 A. One of them was wearing civilian clothing, a suit with a tie, and

20 the other one was wearing the militia uniform.

21 Q. Is that the blue uniform?

22 A. Yes, camouflage.

23 Q. And did a man known as Padobranac, one of Arkan's soldiers, take

24 possession of the shipment?

25 A. Yes. He called up the headquarters over there and two vehicles

Page 18410

1 turned up. He took over the consignment and took it off.

2 Q. And the consignment turned out pretty obviously to be what?

3 A. When I came to Djeletovci, I saw that there were -- that the

4 weapons were protected from corrosion. There were new uniforms, and I

5 concluded that it was probably weapons and uniforms.

6 Q. And at this time, B-071, was it easy or difficult to travel

7 between Serbia and Eastern Slavonia? You've probably covered this

8 already, but was it in fact easy or difficult to make that journey?

9 A. When we would go from west -- from Western Slavonia to Serbia,

10 there was no difficulty at the border crossings.

11 Q. In Belgrade, did you have a couple of experiences suggesting what

12 Arkan's contacts there were with the DB? In particular, were you once

13 checked yourself when you didn't have your ID cards with you and was Arkan

14 or Arkan's name able to help you?

15 A. There was one case when I was stopped by a police patrol on the 20

16 -- the 29th of November was the name of the police station. They took me

17 off down there and asked who I was and where my documents were. I said I

18 didn't have any documents, that I forgot them in my room and that I was

19 working at Arkan's bakery. And then they let me go straight away.

20 Q. A man called Duma had similar problems. Arkan discovered about

21 it, and did he then go and address the shift officer who'd been dealing

22 with Duma for lack of identification, and did he smack the man, the police

23 officer concerned, and fire him from his job?

24 A. That man, that Super Tiger who had lost a leg on the front had

25 some problems. He asked him what had happened, and he just waved his

Page 18411

1 hand, and Arkan didn't like that. He didn't like you not to answer his

2 questions. Because there was the Super Tigers and there was a difference

3 between the Super Tigers and Tigers. And he said he had had some problems

4 at the police station and they hassled him there because they didn't have

5 an ID document of any kind. And then Arkan put him into his own Chevrolet

6 and took him off to the station. And when Duma returned, he told us that

7 on the spot he dismissed two or three of them and slapped the others who

8 had mistreated him or hassled him.

9 Q. That's enough of that kind of evidence, thank you very much.

10 You'll be asked some further questions, B-071.

11 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Milosevic.

12 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

13 Cross-examined by Mr. Milosevic:

14 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. B-071, what were you, a Tiger or a Super

15 Tiger?

16 A. I didn't understand the question. Could you repeat it, please?

17 Q. What were you, tell me; were you a Tiger or a Super Tiger?

18 A. I was neither a Tiger nor a Super Tiger. I was a partisan, as we

19 called it, and was doing a work obligation.

20 Q. You said that at the beginning of the war in Bosnia-Herzegovina,

21 you were in a HOS uniform as a soldier, a courier, a reconnaissance man.

22 A. No. I was wearing civilian clothing.

23 Q. What did you say?

24 A. I didn't have a uniform at all.

25 Q. Well, I understood that you were a member of the HOS.

Page 18412

1 A. No. The TO and the HOS are not the same thing.

2 Q. I didn't understand you.

3 A. The TO and the HOS is not the same army, nor did HOS exist.

4 Q. I'm asking about the Croatian armed forces, HOS.

5 A. Yes, I know, but it didn't exist in that year where we were.

6 Q. All right. Tell me then which formation, which unit did you

7 belong to at the time when, as you say, you entered the area which was

8 under Serb control in order to collect information and data about the

9 deployment of the forces?

10 A. Well, it was an ordinary village guard.

11 Q. So what were you a member of? Were you a member of the

12 Territorial Defence then? Could you identify for me, please, the

13 character of the unit to which you belonged and for which you say you were

14 a courier and a reconnaissance man.

15 A. Well, it wasn't a unit. It wasn't a paramilitary unit either. It

16 was a village guard or village watch. There were just ten of us, for

17 example, and we would stand guard in case of an attack on Mrkonjic Jezero.

18 Q. You said you were a courier. Whose courier were you?

19 A. The village watch, the Territorial Defence.

20 Q. Well, a courier is somebody attached to some kind of headquarters

21 or command or some kind of commander. You were somebody's courier. You

22 were on a reconnaissance mission too, so who were you working for?

23 A. Well, I was a reconnaissance man and courier for a man in charge

24 and in command of the village watch.

25 Q. And who was your commander?

Page 18413

1 A. I can't answer that question.

2 Q. I didn't understand your answer.

3 A. I can't answer your question.

4 Q. You can't answer my question?

5 A. No, I can't.

6 Q. Well, I don't think you'll be able to answer many of my questions.

7 On page 2 of your statement, you speak about the positions at

8 which the Serb forces were deployed; is that right?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. You don't mention the movement of Serb forces anywhere; isn't that

11 so?

12 A. Yes, that's right.

13 Q. Now, those forces of yours, the ones you were reconnaissance man

14 for, you say courier and reconnaissance missions. So the forces you

15 worked for and as you went on reconnaissance missions, at that time were

16 those forces preparing an attack on Serb positions at all?

17 A. No.

18 Q. Well, why did you have to do reconnaissance missions when you

19 yourself say that you were not looking into any troop movements, just

20 positions? So who assigned you this task? Who told you to go on these

21 reconnaissance missions?

22 A. Nobody gave me these tasks. I had a girlfriend in Djeletovci so I

23 would go around to see where the Serb army was, what positions they held,

24 what kind of weapons they held, and so on. I wasn't able to return.

25 Q. All right. You were arrested wearing civilian clothing; right?

Page 18414

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. And when did you take off your uniform and put civilian clothes

3 on; when you went on assignment or a day before or when?

4 A. I never had a uniform.

5 Q. You never had a uniform?

6 A. No, I didn't.

7 Q. But you belonged to some military formation or unit, you said.

8 A. Well, it wasn't a military formation, it was an ordinary village

9 guard's group or village watch.

10 Q. All right. When you were taken prisoner and interrogated about

11 your activities, what did you explain to them? What did you say? Who did

12 you belong to? What were you? Who were you?

13 A. Well, I didn't explain who I was or what I was. Everybody knew

14 me. We were all neighbours.

15 Q. They all knew you?

16 A. Yes. There was a man there at the police station who knew me.

17 Q. So it couldn't have been a secret for that man. He knew you, so

18 he knew your name, he knew your ethnic affiliation, everything else; isn't

19 that right?

20 A. I don't know.

21 Q. What did you say?

22 A. I said I don't know.

23 Q. Mr. B-071, you say that they didn't question you and interrogate

24 you because they knew you.

25 A. Well, I was questioned at the police station.

Page 18415

1 Q. What did you say?

2 A. They asked me at the police station. Do you have -- are there any

3 other soldiers, what weapons do you have, where's this man, where's that

4 man?

5 Q. Yes, but they knew your name and they knew where you came from

6 because you say they knew you.

7 A. Well, one man knew me, the one that took me into custody.

8 Q. Well, that person who took you into custody probably had to give

9 your name and say who you were and what you were as you say he knew you.

10 So why are you saying all this when you were under a false name, when the

11 people who arrested you knew you? They knew your real name, so how could

12 you later suddenly find yourself using a false name?

13 A. Well, I said a false name when I was moved to the military police.

14 Q. Well, can you explain this to me, please. You were transferred to

15 the military police as a prisoner of war, weren't you?

16 A. As a civilian prisoner, not a prisoner of war.

17 Q. All right. You were transferred as a civilian. You were arrested

18 by a man who knew you, he handed you over to the people in the police

19 station with all the information as to your ID, and then somebody suddenly

20 changed your name when you were put into the hands of the military police.

21 Is that it?

22 A. I don't know.

23 Q. Mr. B-071, you're not telling the truth. Why don't you explain to

24 us --

25 A. Well, if I wasn't telling the truth, I wouldn't have -- I wouldn't

Page 18416












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Page 18417

1 be here, and I wouldn't waste my time here or yours.

2 Q. All right. Did you recognise the reasons for which you were taken

3 prisoner? Did you acknowledge them?

4 A. No.

5 Q. Well, why did the man arrest you in the first place and take you

6 to the police station?

7 A. I don't know.

8 Q. You don't know that either?

9 A. No, I don't.

10 Q. You were transferred to the prison called Stari Mlin, the old

11 mill, and stayed there until March 1994; is that right?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. And then to Derventa?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And yesterday, I made a note of something here when you were

16 asked. In the prison you belonged to some military unit, didn't you?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Well, did you consider yourself to be a free person? You did

19 because you went around town, you went about various business. You said

20 you cut wood and did some cleaning; right?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Well, when I was in the army, I always did cleaning work and

23 chopped wood. That is part of the regular duties that soldiers have to do

24 because the soldiers don't have anybody else to do this for them. So did

25 your duties differ in any way from the duties of other soldiers?

Page 18418

1 A. Well, for example, there were some soldiers who had duties around

2 vehicles or weapons or in the kitchens.

3 Q. But they were soldiers too, those working in the kitchen and so

4 on. All this work is done by soldiers. I have never heard of an army

5 having servants, although perhaps some armies do have servants now.

6 A. Well, it was the unit of the army of Republika Srpska. They had

7 officers' messes, kitchens separate for the officers and separate for the

8 men.

9 Q. I'm not asking you about officers' messes or soldiers' kitchens.

10 What I'm asking you is the following: You yourself say that you felt

11 free. You felt yourself to be a free man, that you could move around town

12 and you did the normal duties that soldiers are usually assigned to do.

13 So where - how shall I put this? - you say you were a prisoner. How was

14 it that you were a prisoner? How were you different from others? How did

15 you see yourself as a prisoner?

16 A. Well, I had my work obligations. I had this work unit. I didn't

17 have any weapons and so on, didn't go to the front.

18 Q. So you were privileged not to have to go to the front; right?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. As to the other duties you had to perform, they were no different

21 from the ones anybody else had to do; is that right?

22 A. Yes, that's right.

23 Q. Tell me, please, then, as you were arrested by a man who knew you,

24 he knew your name, he knew your ethic affiliation and everything else,

25 during this period of six years that you have been testifying about, did

Page 18419

1 any of your relatives and relations look for you? Did the authorities of

2 Bosnia-Herzegovina look for you or the authorities of the Republic of

3 Croatia? Did they search for you? The Red Cross or anybody else from the

4 Republic of Croatia, from the Federation of Bosnia-Herzegovina, or from

5 any other part or unit? Did anyone look for you? Were you on a list of

6 missing persons, persons taken prisoner or anything like that?

7 A. Yes, I was.

8 MR. NICE: That's a very long question -- thank you.

9 JUDGE MAY: Yes. We were discussing the times we'll sit today.

10 Because we missed a quarter of an hour at the beginning, we will sit until

11 five to two this afternoon. The break will accordingly be rather later

12 than usual, rather after half past ten.

13 Yes. Mr. Milosevic, if you ask long and complicated questions,

14 people can't answer them. Now, what question would you like the witness

15 to ask -- answer, I mean.

16 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

17 Q. Were you on a list of prisoners of war or detainees? Did anyone

18 look for you during that period of six years?

19 A. Yes.

20 JUDGE MAY: Two questions. Two questions, Witness B-071. First

21 of all, you were on a list of prisoners of war; is that right?

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

23 JUDGE MAY: Secondly, did anybody look for you as far as you know?

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

25 JUDGE MAY: Very well.

Page 18420

1 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

2 Q. And who was looking for you?

3 A. My relatives; my mother and father, brother, sisters.

4 Q. You were in no danger. You said you felt free. How come that you

5 didn't find an opportunity through some sort of an exchange that were

6 frequent in those days, to rejoin your family?

7 A. For instance, when there was the exchange at Manjaca, I was

8 transferred to Prnjavor.

9 Q. And in Prnjavor, there was no other opportunity for you to be

10 exchanged? You were free over there too, weren't you?

11 A. There were no exchanges. If I had had a chance, I would have

12 escaped.

13 Q. But over there you were free too, as far as I understand.

14 A. Yes, but I wasn't as free to move around town as I was in

15 Derventa.

16 Q. So you had no documents; is that right?

17 A. Yes, that's right.

18 Q. Tell me, please, as a free person, you mostly cut wood, cleaned

19 the compound, and worked in the kitchen. I couldn't quite note down when

20 you mentioned the cleaning of a cell with blood in it. Which barracks was

21 it?

22 A. It was the Kula barracks in Mrkonjic.

23 Q. Is that in Mrkonjic Grad?

24 A. Yes, Mrkonjic Grad.

25 Q. And this was a regular barracks of the army of Republika Srpska?

Page 18421

1 A. Yes. It's a barracks from the time of Tito's rule.

2 Q. Very well. So it's a barracks that had been in existence for many

3 years. Isn't that right?

4 A. Yes, it is.

5 Q. Tell me, please, was there a camp there for detainees or

6 prisoners, or was there a police station there or a place where somebody

7 tortured somebody?

8 A. No. There was no camp. There was only the military police who

9 interrogated people and sent them to Manjaca.

10 Q. Did you see anyone -- as I gather you were not badly treated, you

11 were free, did you see anyone being tortured over there?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Would you give us the name of a person tortured there.

14 A. I wouldn't like to give you a name. I'd rather not mention any

15 names.

16 Q. But you are duty-bound to tell us the name if you know one.

17 Otherwise, you've made it up.

18 A. Well, for instance, Mato Tokic from Jajce.

19 Q. Was he beaten in that barracks in the room that you cleaned?

20 A. Yes, he was beaten up to death but he lived.

21 Q. I see. He was beaten almost to death. Do you know anyone else

22 who was beaten up over there?

23 A. There were a couple of others but I don't know them.

24 Q. So you know only this one name.

25 A. Yes.

Page 18422

1 Q. What was the name exactly?

2 A. Tokic Mato.

3 Q. And he's from Jajce. Is he in Jajce now?

4 A. I don't know where he is.

5 Q. Are you quite sure you didn't make up this story about a cell

6 where people were beaten in a military institution?

7 A. I'm certain 100 per cent that it is true.

8 Q. I wouldn't say so, but we'll come to that. On page 10, you say

9 that during your captivity -- you even mentioned the name that you used,

10 the false name that you used. Who did you arrange with to use a false

11 name? Because your real name was obviously known. Who gave you

12 permission to use a false name?

13 A. They didn't ask me for documents or anything like that. He just

14 asked me what my name was and I gave them the name that's how they

15 registered me.

16 Q. So you're saying that they're so naive that without any documents

17 they take what you say for granted? But nobody gave you permission to use

18 a false name.

19 A. For instance in Prnjavor or Dreventa, nobody asked you your name

20 or where you had come from. As soon as they saw an SMB uniform, they knew

21 you were under work obligation.

22 Q. And who gave you that SMB uniform?

23 A. The army of Republika Srpska.

24 Q. So they didn't give you a prison uniform. An SMB uniform is a

25 military uniform, so they dressed you like a regular soldier.

Page 18423

1 A. No, but I didn't have any insignia or buttons or anything.

2 Q. Very well. Since you say that various people also used various

3 names, who are the persons behind the names Dragoljub Coric, Miroslav

4 Tolic, Miodrag Aksentic, Sinisa Zivkovic, Nebojsa Prijevic? Who are the

5 persons hiding behind these names, since, according to what you say, they

6 were also false names?

7 A. Well, Croats and Bosniaks may be hiding behind those names.

8 Q. But do you know them? Did you know their real identity?

9 A. No.

10 Q. But they were Croats and Bosniaks.

11 A. Judging by stories, yes, and the vocabulary they use differs.

12 Q. No, it doesn't differ. I don't think it differs either. It's

13 only recently that I heard that there were several languages. But tell

14 me, please, how is it possible? Did you have an explanation that in that

15 unit of the Serbian Volunteer Guards there was a group of people, Croats

16 and Muslims, who were given Serbian names and were hiding behind those

17 names? Who gave them permission to do that? It's not just you,

18 apparently, but several men who made up this whole plan that you say

19 happened.

20 A. I don't know. Those who were in Arkan's unit, I knew where they

21 came from. They may have been from Serbia, from Bosnia, from Croatia. I

22 don't know where those people came from.

23 Q. Yes, but you say you know that they were Croats and Muslims.

24 A. Yes. When we spoke, I noticed the way they speak.

25 Q. When and where were they captured?

Page 18424

1 A. I don't know. We didn't talk about that, nor did they say they

2 were captured or anything.

3 Q. But since you spent most of your time in the company of these

4 people, if you don't know their identity or anything that might -- do you

5 know anything that might indicate where they came from, what they did

6 before the conflict started? Surely people talk amongst themselves. You

7 must know something more about them. You could have learnt something

8 about them that might have pointed to their identity. What do you know

9 about those people?

10 A. I don't know anything specific about them.

11 Q. So you don't know anything specific about the people you

12 associated with, but you do know everything about Arkan, the Tigers and

13 the Super Tigers.

14 A. I didn't engage in any conversations as to --

15 Q. Well, answer this logical question at least: If you had been

16 captives, should there have been an agreement among you if anyone was

17 released or manages to escape that he should inform families about the

18 others, that they were alive and where they were? Did you have any such

19 arrangement amongst yourselves?

20 A. Yes. I remember the name of Senad Zahirovic who was also captured

21 and was under work obligation, and he fled to Croatia, and I told him to

22 find my family, to tell them that I was alive and where I was.

23 Q. So the real identity of all of those persons, you only know of

24 Senad Zahirovic from Zenica. Among all those persons, you only know of

25 him. And what was the name that he used over there? Did he use his real

Page 18425

1 name?

2 A. I don't know.

3 Q. Wait a moment. I listed a number of names that you say were

4 Croats and Bosniaks and have Serb names, but for this one that you knew,

5 you don't know which name he used.

6 A. He was a regular JNA soldier when the war started in Derventa, and

7 he stayed behind in the unit.

8 Q. Which unit?

9 A. The Serbian army.

10 Q. Was he with you in Arkan's group?

11 A. Yes, he was under work obligation.

12 Q. Was he a member of the Serbian Volunteer Guard like you?

13 A. What do you mean a member; as a combatant or as a worker?

14 Q. Both.

15 JUDGE MAY: You're putting that the witness was a member of the

16 Serbian Volunteer Guard. I thought he was a member of the Partizans. I

17 may be wrong about that. Let's get it right from him.

18 Were you also a member of the Serbian Volunteer Guard?

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I wasn't a member of the Serb

20 Volunteer Guard. I was a Partizaner in this work unit.

21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May, the witness himself claims

22 that he had an ID card of the Serbian Volunteer Guard issued in his name,

23 this name he used.

24 JUDGE MAY: Let's hear about that. We haven't heard about that.

25 We've heard about a booklet, but we haven't heard about that.

Page 18426

1 Did you have a work card from the Serbian Volunteer Guard, issued

2 in the name which you assumed? Is that right?

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. In Bosnia-Herzegovina, Croatia,

4 and Western Slavonia, I didn't have one, but in Belgrade I was given a

5 military booklet with the inscription Serbian Volunteer Guard on it.

6 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

7 Q. Very well. Now, this military booklet of the Serbian Volunteer

8 Guard that you had as a personal ID, is it the same as any other military

9 booklet of members of that guard -- those guards, or was yours different

10 from the others?

11 A. It was the same booklet. Same colour and everything.

12 Q. I see. So you had the same booklet as the other soldiers of the

13 Serbian Volunteer Guards.

14 Since you mentioned this Senad Zahirovic from Zenica, after 1998,

15 when you managed to go home to Jajce, did you have any contact with him?

16 A. No.

17 Q. Did you have any contact with any other member of this unit of

18 yours with whom you had spent so many years?

19 A. No, because I didn't see anyone in Jajce, because it's mostly

20 inhabited by Muslims and Croats. There were no Serbs there.

21 Q. As far -- according to what you say, you joined this Serbian

22 Volunteer Guard, Arkan's unit, in 1995; is that right?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. And from 1995, you moved around wherever Arkan's Serbian Volunteer

25 Guards unit went?

Page 18427












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Page 18428

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. And since you were in those guards from 1995 and moved around with

3 it everywhere, you're still claiming that you were a captive; is that

4 right?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And you even had an ID of the unit, and you still claim that you

7 were a captive.

8 A. I told you that I got those documents only once I reached Serbia.

9 Q. Very well. Let's move on.

10 JUDGE MAY: We'll adjourn now. It's now time to take the

11 adjournment. We'll adjourn for 20 minutes.

12 --- Recess taken at 10.40 a.m.

13 --- On resuming at 11.04 a.m.

14 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Milosevic.

15 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

16 Q. Mr. B-071, a moment ago we established that you could not remember

17 the names of those persons that you worked with nor their identity. So

18 please tell me, how is it possible that you can remember almost a hundred

19 people that were read out to you from a list that you remembered

20 allegedly? Who gave you this list?

21 A. No one gave it to me.

22 Q. So you just remembered all those names on the basis of your own

23 memory?

24 A. I spent two years with them, so it's normal that I know everything

25 about them.

Page 18429

1 Q. Well, how then can you not remember about these other people that

2 I asked you about?

3 A. Maybe these other men have false names too. I just know them by

4 their name and nickname.

5 Q. All right. If you remember all those people so well on the basis

6 of your own memory; for instance, on page 6 of your statement, under 29,

7 you mention a certain Macak, whose nickname was Macak or the cat. And you

8 say that he was one of the leading commanders of Arkan's who is now

9 serving a prison sentence of 13 years. Is that right?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Do you know, Mr. B-071, that this same Macak that you referred to

12 is in prison ever since the end of 1993?

13 A. No.

14 Q. So you don't know that.

15 A. No.

16 Q. But you claim that on the basis of what you remembered in 1995,

17 you were able to say that he was one of the top commanders and everything

18 else that you said. That's why I'm asking you who gave you the list.

19 A. These were all officers or men who used their names or nicknames,

20 but what name hid behind those names, I don't know.

21 Q. But do you understand that what I'm asking you about shows that

22 this is not possible, because the man has been in prison since 1993? So

23 you could not put him on the list.

24 A. But I saw a photograph on the wall in the room where Arkan's men

25 slept.

Page 18430

1 Q. Do you know that that man, in 1993, was convicted by the Yugoslav

2 courts for armed robbery carried out somewhere in the territory of Serbia,

3 in the north, and that he's been in prison ever since?

4 A. No, I don't know that.

5 Q. But the very fact -- this very fact shows that no one, and

6 therefore even Arkan's men, could not be spared of criminal responsibility

7 when there was any evidence of such crimes.

8 JUDGE MAY: No. No. The witness says he was there. Now, you say

9 something different. You can give evidence about it in due course, but at

10 the moment, that's what the witness says. You can't ask any questions

11 based on your supposition.

12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] It's not a supposition, Mr. May, but

13 a fact, because he identifies a man in 1995 who's been in prison since

14 1993.

15 JUDGE MAY: You can call evidence about it. You will give

16 evidence yourself in due course, but you're not doing so now. You're

17 asking questions, and you've heard what the witness says. He identifies

18 this man as one of Arkan's top commanders. Whether he was in prison

19 before then, of course, is a matter, no doubt, we can be informed about.

20 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] That is the point, Mr. May. I'm

21 asking questions in connection with false allegations being made here by

22 this witness, and I think it is quite a legitimate question.

23 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

24 Q. Tell me, Mr. B-071, you claim that you wore the same uniforms as

25 the rest of Arkan's soldiers. Is that right or not?

Page 18431

1 A. Yes, but without any insignia.

2 Q. But you wore the same uniforms as the others.

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. On page 10, and you mentioned something to that effect today too,

5 in your statement you say that Arkan's forces, on the 5th of October,

6 1995, suffered serious losses in battles at Jasenova Kosa, close to

7 Mrkonjic Grad; is that right?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. And who were those forces fighting against?

10 A. Either the HVO or the army of Bosnia and Herzegovina.

11 Q. I see. The forces of the Croatian Defence Council.

12 A. Yes. In Croatia, the Croatian Defence Council or the army of

13 Bosnia and Herzegovina.

14 Q. And on that day, as you say in your statement, you yourself were

15 wounded; right?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. You claim that you were injured by a grenade shrapnel at a gas

18 station at a place near Peric; is that right?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Now, if you were not a member of the armed formations, how come

21 you were where the fighting was at all? Because according to my

22 information, near the gas station in Perici, there was a battle position,

23 combat position of one of the units. Is that true or not? Just say yes

24 or no.

25 A. Well, that's where the feature was, and that's where his vehicles

Page 18432

1 were stationed, that's where the soldiers slept and all the rest of it.

2 Q. All right. And is it true that you yourself then were at these

3 combat positions and that you took part in the fighting that went on and

4 the fighting that that unit took part in too? Is that right?

5 A. Yes. I carried ammunition and food, but I had no weapons with me.

6 Q. And is it true that as an injured person, you were treated

7 identically, in the same way that all the other people were that belonged

8 to the units, this particular unit, in fact?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. And that you shared a hospital room with Marinko Marinovic, Goran

11 Pirocanac, someone nicknamed Bagi, Gluscevic?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. And with a certain Hans; right?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. So you were together with them as somebody wounded. When Arkan's

16 forces withdrew on October the 10th, you withdrew with them and were

17 transferred to Erdut; right?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Now, you claim you were a captive. You keep saying that. So who

20 stood guard over you as a captive from the soldiers, because you say you

21 belonged to a labour unit?

22 A. Well, there was the Partizaneri work unit. There was no security

23 there. No guard stood over us there.

24 Q. So no guards guarded you?

25 A. No, they didn't.

Page 18433

1 Q. All right. Now, as you say that you were not a member of the

2 combat unit and again nobody stood guard over you, did you ever try to

3 escape?

4 A. No.

5 Q. Did you try and get away from that area at all?

6 A. No.

7 Q. Well, when you were in Eastern Slavonia, for example, the border

8 was very close by, the border that was under the control of Croatian

9 forces. How come you never thought of escaping?

10 A. I had no documents. I had nothing. So I didn't plan to escape at

11 all.

12 Q. So you think that had you crossed over to Croatian territory they

13 wouldn't have taken you in because you had no documents?

14 A. Well, I might have been mistreated and abused like I was in some

15 of the Serb units if I had no documents or anything like that.

16 Q. Mr. B-071, do you wish to say that from mid-1995 up until mid-1998

17 there was never an opportunity which you could use to escape?

18 A. I couldn't have escaped because all the border crossings were

19 under heavy control. They asked for documents, so I couldn't.

20 Q. Let's take it this way: How long did you spend in Belgrade? You

21 yourself say you were there.

22 A. One year. A year and a half.

23 Q. Do you know that as of 1996, relations were quite normal between

24 Yugoslavia and the Republic of Croatia? Do you know that the bakery at

25 the Red Star stadium to the Croatian embassy is just a five-minute walk?

Page 18434

1 You don't have to take the car, it's five-minute walk away from your

2 bakery, the one you worked in. Are you aware of that?

3 A. Well, I don't know where the embassy is, but --

4 Q. So you never had the idea, as you were a Croat yourself and you

5 were working there against your own free will but could move around

6 Belgrade freely, did you never think of going into your embassy and

7 saying, "I'm here against my will. Please extend protection as one of

8 your citizens and make it possible for me to go to Croatia"? You never

9 thought of doing that?

10 A. No, I didn't.

11 Q. All right. Fine. Very well.

12 On page 15, paragraph 7, you say that in the month of April 1996,

13 you arrived in Belgrade where you worked at the stadium of the football

14 club called Obilic.

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. So from 1996 to 1998, that is to say two years, you had the

17 possibility of contacting people in Belgrade, including the Croatian

18 embassy.

19 A. I was in Belgrade until 1997, not 1998.

20 Q. So that's when you were given your military booklet stating that

21 you were a regular soldier of Arkan's unit; right?

22 A. In 1996 when I arrived in Belgrade, yes, that's right.

23 Q. And this other man Zahirovic came with you for whom you claim left

24 Belgrade a month later and went to Croatia.

25 A. Yes.

Page 18435

1 Q. So he was able to leave Belgrade one month later and go to Croatia

2 and nobody prevented him in doing so; right?

3 A. Because he had his ID papers. So he could go wherever he took it

4 into his head to go.

5 Q. So just because you didn't have your own ID documents, you didn't

6 wish to go to Croatia; is that right?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Was there not some other reason perhaps?

9 A. No.

10 Q. All right. You say that in July 1997, Arkan asked you whether you

11 wanted to go back to Bosnia. Isn't that right?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Doesn't this seem to be a little contradictory? You say you were

14 a prisoner of war, a captive, and yet he asks you whether you wish to

15 return to Bosnia. And when you said yes, he then sent you back to Bosnia;

16 right?

17 A. Well, perhaps he didn't know I was a war captive. In Prijedor he

18 asked us which unit we belonged to, and the people that had permits to

19 move around, they said they were from the unit they were from, and I said

20 I was in the work obligation unit. So I joined one of the Partizaneri, as

21 they were called, doing my work assignment.

22 Q. Well, it's very difficult for me to put all the pieces together

23 here, but let's just summarise.

24 You were injured at combat positions as a member of the Arkan

25 unit; right?

Page 18436

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Then you spent two years in Belgrade, in the Belgrade region, or

3 one year, as you say. Let's say one year. You slept there. You were

4 accommodated, had food in a civilian facility, you received a salary for

5 the work you did; isn't that right?

6 A. Just for the first two months I received a salary.

7 Q. Yes. You had a military booklet too.

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. And when you were asked whether you wished to return to Bosnia,

10 you said you did. And then you did indeed go home in 1998. You went to

11 Jajce; right?

12 A. In 1997 I was sent to the quarry civilian prison, in 1997, and

13 then I went to Jajce.

14 Q. All right. So they sent you back to Bosnia. So why do you tell

15 us you were a prisoner of war of some kind and that Arkan considered you

16 to be a war deserter in view of all the facts that you have confirmed

17 here?

18 A. I don't understand. Could you repeat that question, please.

19 Q. Were you in Arkan's units on a volunteer basis, voluntarily? From

20 what you have said, it would appear you were for a period of five years.

21 A. No, I was not there voluntarily.

22 Q. You weren't there voluntarily?

23 A. No.

24 Q. Well, then answer me this: How come you stayed in Arkan's

25 entourage for such a long period of time?

Page 18437

1 A. Well, until his units were disbanded. Everything was disbanded

2 and that was it.

3 Q. But you explained to us yesterday here in this courtroom that you

4 joined - how shall I put this? - that you entered the Serb forces in order

5 to learn what the enemy was doing. Is that right?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. So you were there for a full five years. During those five years,

8 did you inform anybody about what this alleged enemy was doing to you?

9 A. No.

10 Q. So that was not your job. You didn't do what you said was your

11 motive for infiltrating those forces in the first place.

12 A. That's right.

13 Q. Tell me, did you in any way -- were you in any way abused,

14 mistreated during the time you spent in Arkan's unit?

15 A. Well, for example, they swore at me if I did something wrong.

16 Arkan would personally slap us in the bakery, that kind of thing.

17 Q. Yes, but did they belittle you in any way because you were a

18 Croat?

19 A. They didn't know I was a Croat.

20 Q. You say probably. They probably didn't know.

21 A. Well, my name is a sort of international name. It goes for both

22 sides.

23 Q. All right. Well, if you didn't know where the Croatian embassy

24 was, for example, and you knew nothing about things like, you spent such a

25 long time there, didn't it ever occur to you to contact an international

Page 18438

1 institution, for example, like the International Red Cross or the

2 International High Commissioner -- UN High Commissioner for Refugees or

3 just to come into contact with your own family to receive information

4 about them, see how they were, to send them information about your

5 whereabouts?

6 A. What do you mean, to go to look for the Croatian embassy and Red

7 Cross and the church in Belgrade? But whenever I got the idea of doing

8 so, I thought somebody would follow me, somebody was following me.

9 Q. So you thought somebody was following you and yet you say nobody

10 stood guard over you or anything like that. Tell me what you told your

11 own family members and your colleagues from the unit from which you were

12 taken prisoner in the first place. What did you tell them? Where you

13 were all those years without making any contact with them?

14 A. I said I was under a work obligation, working over there.

15 Q. Is it true that a driver by the name of Zikic from that unit of

16 Arkan's drove you to Doboj in a car? That's right, isn't it?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. So do you mean to say that that's what they usually do with

19 captives, prisoners of war; they give them a car, give them a driver, a

20 chauffeur to be taken to Bosnia on the basis of that person's assertion

21 saying they wanted to go home?

22 A. Well, I didn't have my own ID papers so I had to get across the

23 border somehow.

24 Q. Well, Doboj is a little further from Raca, so once you cross the

25 border, that wouldn't have been necessary.

Page 18439












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Page 18440

1 Do you know a single prisoner of war, a captive either from the

2 former SFRY territory or in the whole wide world whom the driver of an

3 enemy unit who had taken him captive in the first place and kept him under

4 detention --

5 JUDGE MAY: I'm going to stop you. This is not a question. It's

6 a comment.

7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well, Mr. May.

8 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

9 Q. You claim that they handed you over to a man called Coric, if I

10 remember correctly, who was the warden of the prison at the quarry in

11 Doboj.

12 A. Right.

13 Q. And from -- in 1998, you managed to cross over into Jajce?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Tell me how you managed to reach Jajce.

16 A. I escaped from the prison with the help of a guard who was married

17 to a Croatian lady, and according to his story, that was it. And he

18 helped me during the night. He gave me some trousers to put on, a shirt,

19 he opened the gates and said, "You can go now but take the direction of

20 Banja Luka. Don't go anywhere else."

21 Q. Now, tell me something with respect to what Mr. Nice asked you at

22 the end of the examination-in-chief and something that is contained on

23 page 13 of your statement, that in March 1996, several days prior to

24 leaving the camp in the sugar refinery, that you were involved in a

25 specialist -- a special task, as you say. You were on special assignment.

Page 18441

1 A. Right.

2 Q. So in addition to you, on that assignment there were other members

3 of that work unit of yours; right?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Do you remember which other members these were? Who were the

6 others that went on this mission together with you? Can you give us the

7 names?

8 A. Captain Pejo, Arkan's officer, was one. Then there was Radomir

9 Trojanovic, and there were some others but I can't remember their names.

10 Q. You can't remember their names?

11 A. No.

12 Q. All right. But you seem to be able to remember hundreds of other

13 names.

14 So who else from this work unit was on the assignment with you?

15 You have mentioned the officers, but what about your colleagues, the rank

16 and file that worked with you? So which other alleged war criminals were

17 with you on this assignment that allegedly have the same status that you

18 yourself say you had?

19 A. I can't remember.

20 Q. You remember the names of officers, but you can't remember the

21 name of a single one of your colleagues. How is that possible?

22 A. Well, I don't know if he was a captive or whether he was on a work

23 assignment.

24 Q. All right. Tell me at least some names of people who were there

25 with you on -- doing this same work assignment except for the officers.

Page 18442

1 They weren't doing the work, I assume.

2 A. I said Radomir Trojanovic.

3 Q. Was he a member of your work unit or was he a member of the

4 Serbian Volunteer Guard?

5 A. He was a member of the Serbian Volunteer Guard.

6 Q. And what about your colleagues? Who was in the unit with you?

7 A. I can't remember.

8 Q. So you can't remember the name of a single colleague of yours?

9 A. Well, I can't remember. I don't think there were any other

10 captives or things like that.

11 Q. So you drove around in a truck with the other captives from that

12 work unit; isn't that right?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And yet you can't remember who the other captives were?

15 JUDGE MAY: No. Mr. Milosevic, there has now been a repetition of

16 that question and answer three times, and it must stop. You've made your

17 point. The witness says he can't remember. Now, let's move on.

18 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

19 Q. But you do remember the people who were in the other truck; right?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. But you don't remember the ones in your own truck?

22 JUDGE MAY: No. That's precisely the point you're not to ask

23 again.

24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well.

25 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Page 18443

1 Q. As we can see from what you have testified or alleged -- your

2 alleged testimony, it was your task to dig up -- dig in a well.

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. You had to cover up a well.

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. How big was the well? It was on the banks of the Danube River,

7 wasn't it?

8 A. Well, I don't know where the Danube is.

9 Q. According to the sketch you showed us, the little map, I gain the

10 impression from the diagram that it was in fact on the banks of the

11 Danube.

12 A. Well, I didn't see any river nearby. Perhaps it was over the

13 little hill.

14 Q. Well, wells are not usually very deep near the banks of a river

15 because of the underground waters, but tell us how big the well was that

16 you had to fill in. What was its diameter, for example?

17 A. Diameter? Well, three metres by four metres perhaps, and it was

18 all in a circle.

19 Q. Was the well a square one?

20 A. It was a round one.

21 Q. Well, how can it be three times four metres?

22 A. There was a kind of foundations to it, a bottom part.

23 Q. And what about the wall of the well?

24 A. A metre.

25 Q. And the depth of the well?

Page 18444

1 A. Well, I couldn't see down there. It was all filled with soil,

2 with earth.

3 Q. You mentioned Radomir Trojanovic; is that right?

4 A. Yes.

5 JUDGE KWON: Just a second, Mr. Milosevic.

6 Mr. B-071, did you say that you didn't know the -- where the

7 Danube River is near?

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I didn't see the river nearby.

9 JUDGE KWON: Did you see the location of the Danube River?

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, where the park is where Arkan

11 was stationed, it was nearby, but over here I couldn't see it.

12 JUDGE KWON: If we could take a look at tab 3, Exhibit 416. Let

13 the witness have the tab. You said you drew this map, didn't you?

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. Yes.

15 JUDGE KWON: Who wrote "Danube River" on left top? If you are not

16 aware of the Danube River location, how could you write that?

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Here where it says the Danube River,

18 the man who went with me to investigate, he wrote it down, saying that the

19 Danube was nearby.

20 JUDGE KWON: Then it was not you who wrote that?

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

22 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.

23 Go on, Mr. Milosevic.

24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Kwon. I had just --

25 I was just looking at this sketch because the witness claimed that he had

Page 18445

1 drawn the sketch, and it says on it that close to the location of the well

2 there is indication of the Danube River.

3 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

4 Q. So B-071, will you tell me, did you draw this sketch or somewhere

5 else?

6 A. I myself with my own hand.

7 Q. So you yourself drew this sketch, and you yourself marked the

8 river Danube here?

9 A. No, I didn't mark the Danube River because I didn't know where it

10 was.

11 Q. Well, then how can you say that you drew the sketch and everything

12 that is written on this piece of paper?

13 JUDGE MAY: There are two points there. One, first of all, who

14 drew the sketch; secondly, who wrote on it? Those are two different

15 matters. Now, can you help us with that, Witness B-071?

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is a sketch that I drew, and

17 these markings here, up here, the Danube River, I didn't do that. I

18 didn't mark that. I didn't know where this position was. I know that the

19 Danube is nearby the promenade over here. So probably this gentleman who

20 was with me when we investigated the gravesite did it.

21 JUDGE MAY: Now, who wrote on the sketch? Because we've got

22 writing on it. Did you write on it or did somebody else write? Whose

23 writing is it?

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This gentleman who went with me as

25 an investigator.

Page 18446

1 MR. NICE: Your Honour, the investigator will be available if

2 required.

3 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

4 Q. Very well. As I am asking you questions exclusively on the basis

5 of what is said on this document of yours, so I asked you the question

6 about the Danube because it says the river Danube on this piece of paper.

7 Otherwise, how else could we orient ourselves?

8 Now, you say you didn't write it down. How much of this is your

9 work and how much of this other gentleman?

10 A. I did the actual drawing, the sketch - the house, the trees - but

11 the writing was by the gentleman who was with me. He wrote down the names

12 of these various places.

13 Q. Very well. Let's not waste any more time on this. So this was a

14 joint composition of yours.

15 Now, who is Radomir Trojanovic, please?

16 A. Radomir Trojanovic was a Super Tiger in Arkan's unit. He's

17 somewhere from Kosovo, from Pristina. He worked in the bakery. He stayed

18 behind after I had left.

19 Q. So he was the same as you were, a bakery worker. But he was a

20 Super Tiger, and you were neither a Super Tiger nor a Tiger; is that

21 right?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Is he alive?

24 A. I don't know. He was alive when I left. Whether he's alive now,

25 I don't know.

Page 18447

1 Q. You say that he explained to you, because you got there in 1995 so

2 you didn't know anything about it. What did he explain that you were

3 doing, that you were covering up?

4 A. We asked him what we were doing, and he said we had to fill in a

5 gravesite with earth and mask it with trees, branches.

6 Q. Did you ask yourself what kind of a mass grave it could be in a

7 one diameter well which must be shallow as it is close to the Danube? Did

8 he tell you that you're really covering up a mass grave?

9 A. He just said that there was a grave there that needed to be filled

10 in with soil and concealed.

11 Q. Do you know, and I'd like to hear, did you unearth anything there

12 when you eventually went there with the investigator?

13 A. We started digging. It was deep, and then I went back to Bosnia.

14 Q. So you don't know anything about the results?

15 A. No.

16 Q. And you don't know anything about the origin of the possible

17 contents of that well?

18 A. I don't.

19 Q. It seems to me that some of the things you're saying you don't

20 know with certainty, so I'd like to ask you to try and clear it up for me.

21 Mr. Nice asked you where those vehicles had come from that Arkan's

22 unit had at its disposal, and you answered that they had come from Vukovar

23 and Slavonski Brod. You joined the unit in 1995, and they surely already

24 had those vehicles.

25 A. Yes.

Page 18448

1 Q. How then could you know the origin of those vehicles?

2 A. For instance, when I was washing them, then there are documents

3 indicating the origin. There were pickups from the UN. You could see the

4 white paint showing up when the black point was scratched.

5 Q. Very well. Then several minutes later, you said that some

6 vehicles had come from Belgrade.

7 A. Yes, the jeeps.

8 Q. I see. The origin of the vehicles is from Vukovar, Slavonski

9 Brod, the UN, and Belgrade.

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Mr. Nice asked you whether they spoke about the killing of people,

12 and you said no. And then later on, you said that they mentioned some

13 killings in Vukovar.

14 A. When we were digging the grave, they didn't say anything. But

15 when we got to Vukovar, the Super Tigers officers would come drunk, and

16 they would say all kinds of things like killings.

17 Q. Very well. Tell me, you said that the discipline was very strict

18 in Arkan's unit; isn't that so?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Another witness who came from that unit, or said he came from the

21 unit, said the same and that people were punished for the least offence,

22 especially for drinking alcohol.

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Well, how is it possible then that punishment should be severe in

25 a unit if somebody drinks alcohol, whereas on the other side you're

Page 18449

1 telling us that they would get drunk and recount what they had done.

2 A. The Super Tigers had greater privileges. They could do whatever

3 they wanted. They could get drunk. They could tie people to flagpoles

4 and so on.

5 Q. So the discipline didn't apply to everyone but only to some, and

6 the others would get drunk and then they would talk about the crimes they

7 had committed.

8 A. Yes. The officers and non-commissioned officers that were Super

9 Tigers.

10 Q. And did you personally witness a single crime committed in those

11 three or four years? How long were you in Arkan's unit?

12 A. For a year and a half.

13 Q. Very well. Well, did you see a single crime committed by that

14 unit or a member of that unit?

15 A. I -- I would see them go off looting and never come back. They

16 would go to commit a crime and they wouldn't return alive. This would

17 happen in Serbia, for instance.

18 Q. I see. So a member of the unit would go to commit a crime and

19 then he wouldn't come back?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And you noticed that he was missing, that he got killed?

22 A. Yes. The report would come in that he had been killed. For

23 example, this Badzo who was a bodyguard to his children with Ceca, he went

24 to do something in Orasje, and he didn't return alive. He was killed and

25 he was buried.

Page 18450












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Page 18451

1 Q. I see. So you're not telling us that one of the members of your

2 unit got killed. But tell me, do you have any knowledge of a member of

3 your unit committing a crime?

4 A. There would be looting, for instance.

5 Q. Were they punished for stealing?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. On page 3 in the annex, you say that a certain Srdjan, Duma, said

8 that Arkan, and I'm using your expression, would slap around the

9 inspectors who had troubled this Srdjan. Is that right?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Were you with them in the SUP premises when this happened?

12 A. No.

13 Q. So he told you about it, did he?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. That he acted brutally, that he treated them brutally?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Explain something to me, please, which really doesn't fit in any

18 sense into the logic of the events. You say that in April 1996, from

19 Serbia to Eastern Slavonia a package of weapons arrived. In April 1996.

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Do you know that by then the war had long since ended and that

22 there were no operations there, and there was international presence in

23 the area by then already? In April 1996, that was five months, or six

24 months almost, after Dayton.

25 JUDGE MAY: Let him answer.

Page 18452

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] For instance, I would see the UN

2 forces in the restaurant of the Skorpions, where they would come with

3 their pickups, vehicles, kombi vans and so on.

4 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

5 Q. Very well. While this was happening, were the UN forces there or,

6 rather, international forces?

7 A. They roamed around in their vehicles, yes.

8 Q. They were present there, weren't they? Were they present at the

9 border as well?

10 A. I don't know. I didn't see them.

11 Q. But there were no combat operations. The UN was there at the

12 time. What kind of weapons are you talking about coming from Serbia in

13 April 1996 arriving in Eastern Slavonia?

14 A. According to the story of this Padobranac, this sergeant, you can

15 tell by his speech. Now, what was in the package, he himself didn't know.

16 Q. I see. So you're saying there were some packages that arrived and

17 he himself didn't know what was inside. I'm glad we've cleared that up,

18 because it was so illogical that it was essential that we cleared it up.

19 You didn't say the consignment consisted of snipers, automatic weapons and

20 so on. You're saying that he himself didn't know what was in the packages

21 but you are claiming that there were snipers inside. Why did you make

22 that up?

23 A. I didn't make it up. When we returned to Djeletovci, I saw them

24 cleaning weapons, protecting them from corrosion, and new uniforms, and

25 these were things that were not there when we arrived.

Page 18453

1 Q. I see. So then you made the conclusion that that was what that

2 package contained.

3 A. What else could it be? Not food.

4 Q. I'm afraid such arbitrary conclusions cannot be any grounds for

5 real facts.

6 Tell me, how did that package -- packages arrive? You said during

7 the examination-in-chief that the vehicle was from Serbia but that you

8 didn't see the licence plates.

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. If you didn't see the licence plates, how did you know that they

11 were from Serbia?

12 A. This Padobranac, narednik, this sergeant said this.

13 Q. So this was a sergeant you were working with?

14 A. But he was the person one would ask.

15 Q. Do you know the name of this person?

16 A. No, I know his nickname, Padobranac, or parachutist. There were

17 two vehicles. They loaded them and took them to Djeletovci.

18 Q. If somebody loaded them, who unloaded them?

19 A. I don't know who loaded or who unloaded them.

20 Q. Well, what was your role, then?

21 A. My role was to cut wood for Arkan's soldiers in Nijemci.

22 Q. I see. Heating wood.

23 A. Whether it went to Serbia, it was loaded in log form onto trailer

24 trucks and taken away.

25 Q. And this Padobranac, was he an important person among Arkan's

Page 18454

1 units?

2 A. Well, he was a sergeant by rank.

3 Q. Let us now clear up a few more things, because what you've just

4 said is quite unbelievable, especially in April 1996. Let's go back to

5 your statements listing the names. You mention a large number of people

6 who allegedly worked in Arkan's bakery.

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. And you too worked in Arkan's bakery, didn't you?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. How big is this bakery? According to the information I have, it

11 is about 25 square metres in size. Is that right?

12 A. I don't know the exact size.

13 Q. Well, let me help you. Five by five. That makes 25 square

14 metres. From me to Mr. Tapuskovic and the same distance on the other

15 side. So that would make a square of 25 metres.

16 A. I don't know. I didn't measure it.

17 Q. Very well. You didn't measure it, but is that roughly the size of

18 that room?

19 A. Maybe a couple of metres broader with the shop where bread was

20 sold.

21 Q. And as far as I have the information here, it had only a single

22 furnace, single oven for the baked goods. If so many people were working

23 in that one room, how would the customers enter?

24 A. There would be four working in production, making bread, and there

25 were two working as salesmen.

Page 18455

1 Q. Very well. Under number 54, you mentioned Dragan Joksovic, known

2 as Joksa. You say he was Arkan's best man. Is that right? As regards

3 Macak, we established that he was in prison you couldn't have mentioned

4 him unless you had the list.

5 JUDGE MAY: No. You didn't establish anything. You're not giving

6 evidence, and you're not to put it to the witness as though it is a fact

7 when it isn't. He gives evidence opposite.

8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well. Don't worry about that.

9 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

10 Q. Why are you mentioning this man when he was never at the front,

11 nor did he take part in any battle but lived and worked in Switzerland?

12 A. I didn't say he was at the front. I just mentioned him being in

13 Serbia. I heard that he had been killed and all of that.

14 Q. So you put on the list or you were given a list by someone

15 including men who were not on the front. Was that man in the unit or not?

16 A. No, he wasn't.

17 Q. Well, why did you put him on the list?

18 A. I put him on the list because I remember people who were close to

19 Arkan.

20 Q. How could you have put -- you could have put his wife and

21 children, aunts and uncles, anyone that anything to do with him, his

22 friends, members of his football club.

23 A. I didn't put on a list his children and members of the family,

24 relatives.

25 Q. In your statement, you mention some flying school, school for

Page 18456

1 pilots that Arkan had. Is that right?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And where was that school located, Mr. B-071?

4 A. It is the motor school, the pilot school at Vezdera [phoen].

5 Q. Is it an automobile, a driving school or a flying school? Is it

6 to learn how to drive cars or fly planes?

7 A. It was a school to train pilots.

8 Q. Well, if it was a flying school, it must have had people attending

9 it who had to be trained as pilots; right?

10 A. Well, I don't know what they did there, but alleged -- we spent

11 some time there, we slept there, and there was a plaque saying "Avio

12 Skola," flying school.

13 Q. All right. Tell me who the members of that school were and what

14 kind of aircraft did the school have?

15 A. It didn't have any.

16 Q. Well, why are you talking about a flying school?

17 A. Well, that was the name of it. It said Avio Skola. That's what

18 it said on the plaque above the place. Maybe it was something that

19 existed in the former Yugoslavia, training of that kind.

20 Q. Ah, I see. That's what you say. But in your statement, it would

21 appear as if Arkan had his own flying school, school to train pilots and

22 that people were being trained there to fly aircraft. What you're now

23 saying is quite different.

24 A. No, I didn't say he had pilots flying from there.

25 Q. All right. Let's leave that behind then and move on. On page 8

Page 18457

1 under 67, you mentioned Vlado Vukotic and you say he was a captain and a

2 commander in that holiday home that the sugar refinery had; is that right?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Do you know what the man was by profession?

5 A. No, I don't.

6 Q. Do you know that as a car mechanic he was the head of the carpool

7 for the barracks, in the barracks of the Territorial Defence, in fact, in

8 Erdut and not in any camp of Arkan's? He was a car mechanic and head of

9 the car repair shop for motor vehicles.

10 A. No.

11 Q. What do you mean no? No to what? What is no is answer to?

12 A. I don't know that he was a car mechanic. I never saw him dirty or

13 soiled in any way.

14 Q. I assume that a car mechanic who is the head of a car repair shop

15 doesn't have to get too dirty. And even if he does, once he leaves his

16 workplace he can have a bath, wash, and change his clothes.

17 A. Well, Arkan's car repair shop wasn't in the camp compound, it was

18 near Erdut.

19 Q. All right. Tell me then, please. Do you know at all that Arkan's

20 unit, the one you're talking about, was within the composition of the

21 Territorial Defence of Eastern Slavonia at all or, rather, the Serbian

22 army of Krajina?

23 A. No, I don't know that. I'm not aware of that.

24 Q. So you don't know that, as such, it worked within the composition

25 of the TO of Eastern Slavonia and later the Serbian army of Krajina?

Page 18458

1 A. No.

2 Q. Very well. Do you know this: That the holiday home owned by the

3 sugar refinery was not Arkan's -- under Arkan's control, an Arkan

4 facility, but was on the banks where other TO units and the army of Srpska

5 Krajina was stationed and Arkan's as a component part?

6 A. Well, when you went into his camp there was a checkpoint at the

7 entrance. You couldn't go in. He had guards there belonging to him.

8 There wasn't any other army, soldiers of Republika Srpska.

9 Q. I'm not talking about Republika Srpska, I'm talking about Krajina.

10 A. That's what I'm talking about too.

11 Q. So you have no knowledge of any other units belonging to the

12 Serbian army of Krajina being there?

13 A. No.

14 Q. And you don't know that Arkan's unit was part of the Serbian army

15 of Krajina as a Serb Volunteer Guard?

16 A. No.

17 Q. You don't know that either?

18 A. No.

19 Q. And yet you were a member of that unit?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. As you spoke about very rigorous discipline in the unit, why then

22 do you speak of members of the unit as some kind of bandits? You can't

23 have it both ways. Were they highly disciplined or were they a group of

24 bandits?

25 A. For the Tigers it was a disciplined unit, but the Super Tigers

Page 18459

1 worked under a different regime.

2 Q. All right. Since you say that certain persons had privileges and

3 you mention Arkan's son Mihajlo amongst others --

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. -- do you know that his son was very severely sanctioned for some

6 offences that he committed? Do you know about that?

7 A. No.

8 Q. That he personally punished him?

9 A. No, I don't know that.

10 Q. You don't know that?

11 A. No, I don't.

12 Q. So you claim that there were some people to which this discipline

13 did not apply and who were able to go around drinking and behaving like

14 bandits and so on. Is that what you're saying?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Do you know, and I assume that you were given some information,

17 you said that Arkan said something in front of a column of men on one

18 occasion. I assume that he addressed his men on several occasions. So do

19 you know of any other occasion when he spoke before a column of men, spoke

20 to his men?

21 A. No.

22 Q. Well, you mention him speaking in Mrkonjic, for example, in front

23 of 1.000 men, and you know that the Serbian Volunteer Guard could not have

24 numbered 1.000 men. So is it quite clear, therefore, that his unit was

25 within the composition of the army of Republika Srpska at that particular

Page 18460

1 point in time in Krajina as the Serb Volunteer Guard?

2 JUDGE MAY: Let us unravel that question. It's, first of all,

3 put, Witness B-071, and you can answer this, that the Serbian Volunteer

4 Guard could not have numbered 1.000 men. Is that so or not?

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I would say there are about a

6 thousand people. Some were car mechanics, cooks; all of them. Then there

7 were those others there, the ones that didn't go to the front line. So if

8 he had three or four -- he had 300 or 400 men that just went to the front

9 line.

10 JUDGE MAY: Taking -- taking the matter from there, the next point

11 which is made is that Arkan's unit was within the army of the Republika

12 Srpska in Krajina at that time. Now, as far as you knew, is that right or

13 not, or was it acting independently? Can you help us?

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know that.

15 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

16 Q. All right. So when you mention Mrkonjic and the 1.000 men, were

17 there any other units there or just that unit of Arkan's?

18 A. Well, in Perici, for example, that place down there, there was the

19 army of Republika Srpska, and I saw the Eagles insignia and the Milicija,

20 the police insignia. Now, whether that was -- came under Arkan's units or

21 not, I really can't say. I don't know.

22 Q. All right. When you say he had 300 to 400 and then you mention

23 the figure of a thousand, I don't suppose two-thirds of the unit, as you

24 say, were cooks and mechanics, as you yourself say, and just one-third of

25 those belonging to his own unit.

Page 18461












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Page 18462

1 A. Well, for example, he had people in two groups. One shift would

2 work for a week and then go to the front. Then they would return and be

3 replaced.

4 Q. Yes. But you're talking about the presence of 1.000 men at the

5 same time, not in two shifts. At one and the same time, which is then an

6 even -- raises the question even more as to whether you're telling the

7 truth or not.

8 If he had two shifts, then he should have had at least 2.000 men,

9 which is science fiction, if you ask me. Isn't that so?

10 JUDGE MAY: What is the question? He's given his answer. Now,

11 you seem to be indulging in some speculation of some sort. Let's move on

12 from here.

13 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

14 Q. All right. Now, precisely because his volunteer unit was always

15 either under the composition of the army of Srpska Krajina or the army of

16 Republika Srpska where the losses and casualties were greatest, do you

17 know that after peace was signed in Dayton, that particular unit was

18 disbanded? He disbanded his guards.

19 A. I don't know that there was the army of Republika Srpska and the

20 Krajina one or what you said. And he disbanded his army only when he got

21 to Belgrade, only then.

22 Q. Do you know that after the peace agreement was signed -- that is

23 to say he went to help out where there was fighting in the war, and when

24 this came to an end and there was the peace agreement, he disbanded his

25 men. So he went to help both armies in Republika Srpska. Do you know

Page 18463

1 about that or not? Are you aware of that or not?

2 A. Well, I don't know if he assisted, if he helped them, whether they

3 came on a voluntary basis.

4 Q. Well, he helped on a voluntary basis, of course, not forcibly, not

5 by force; on a volunteer basis.

6 But all right. Let's just clear a couple of other points up and

7 move on to save time, if possible.

8 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Milosevic, I should say you've got about five

9 minutes left.

10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well, Mr. May. I hope you're

11 not going to split hairs whether it's five minutes or seven or eight

12 minutes. I just have a few more questions and points to clear up with

13 this witness who, just like the others, is quite obviously completely

14 inconsistent in his testimony.

15 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

16 Q. You say with respect to the injuries, on page 10, that on the

17 occasion you were wounded in your heel; is that right?

18 A. Yes. A grenade wounded me in my back, in my muscle area, and my

19 heel.

20 Q. All right. And is it true that you were not injured by a shrapnel

21 but by a rifle bullet?

22 A. No.

23 Q. And as to your treatment and how you received your injury, I

24 assume you must know that there are medical records.

25 A. When I was treated in Banja Luka, nobody asked for any documents

Page 18464

1 or anything else, for any of Arkan's soldiers. They weren't asked for

2 that.

3 Q. I'm talking about medical records, people who treated you.

4 When you speak of your injuries, you never mention in what

5 capacity you were injured apart from saying that you happened to be there

6 on the spot. So answer me this, please, give me a specific answer: Why

7 are you trying to escape the truth that as a Croatian you were a member of

8 the Arkan's armed formations, that is to say a fighter, a combatant, and

9 that you were injured as a combatant in the fighting that you were injured

10 in?

11 A. I was not a combatant, and I'm not trying to get away from the

12 truth.

13 Q. Mr. B-071, you say, and this is how you put it, that Arkan

14 collected you up in Derventa; is that right?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Is the truth this, that you -- that as you were without a doubt a

17 Croat by nationality, volunteered for Arkan's Serbian National Guard and

18 Territorial Defence in Eastern Slavonia and Erdut in 1995? Isn't that the

19 truth? You yourself volunteered in Erdut in 1995. Is that true or is it

20 not? Just say yes or no.

21 A. No.

22 Q. And is it true that you had to undergo rigorous procedure to be

23 taken in? They checked you out. They checked your documents out. You

24 had to supply them with all your documents and a photograph; right?

25 A. Could you repeat that question? I wasn't following. I didn't

Page 18465

1 understand you.

2 Q. When you were taken in as a member, you had to undergo, according

3 to my information, and you passed this check-up very rigorously. There

4 was a very rigorous procedure. You had to provide documents and so on.

5 So nobody just collected you up, rounded you up, it was you yourself who

6 went to Erdut to sign up, with all the necessary documents, photographs,

7 and papers and requests to join the unit; isn't that right?

8 A. No, that is not right.

9 Q. The fact that you were injured as a combatant and that you signed

10 up voluntarily and spent several years as a member of that unit --

11 JUDGE MAY: I'm not going to allow you to put the question in that

12 form. The witness has denied it. It's his evidence which counts at the

13 moment, not what you're putting to him. Now, you've got two minutes left

14 if you want to put anything else.

15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May, I assume that it is quite

16 clear from his own testimony that he was able to move around freely

17 throughout, that he spent time in Belgrade, that --

18 JUDGE MAY: Those are all matters of argument. You can make these

19 points to us in due course. Now, we're finishing this witness's

20 cross-examination. If you've got any more questions, ask them.

21 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

22 Q. Just answer me this question then, please: How were you forced,

23 in addition to the facts that I have put forward to you, what made you

24 give the statement that you gave?

25 A. Everything I say in the statement is the truth. I'm not afraid of

Page 18466

1 the truth and I don't wish to avoid the truth. If you have any more

2 questions, please continue.

3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. May.

4 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Kay.

5 MR. KAY: Thank you, Your Honour.

6 Questioned by Mr. Kay:

7 Q. Witness B-071, you told us that you joined the TO in February of

8 1991 in Jajce; is that right?

9 A. No.

10 Q. What's wrong about that statement?

11 A. 1992. I joined the TO in 1992, the village guards.

12 Q. I've got a statement here signed by you, and I'm looking at page 2

13 of it, and I'll read out a sentence that's in that statement. It's a

14 statement that you gave to the investigators for the Prosecutor of the

15 Tribunal. It says: "In February 1991, I joined the Territorial Defence

16 in Jajce. I was a courier and a reconnaissance soldier."

17 Do you say now that that fact is wrong?

18 A. In 1991, I had just come from Split where I'd been working in a

19 company there. So it was the beginning of 1992 that I'd joined the unit.

20 Q. In the beginning of 1992 then, as you say it was then you joined

21 the unit --

22 A. Yes, the village guards. The TO, village guards or watch.

23 Q. -- was that in Jajce?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And when you say it was the village guards or watch, how different

Page 18467

1 was that from the TO?

2 A. Well, for example, the village guards stood around the village.

3 Mile, Vrbica, Sarovo Polje.

4 Q. You had a commander; is that right?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And was there a head commander above that commander?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. And did they wear uniforms?

9 A. No.

10 Q. What was happening in Jajce at that time? Why were you part of a

11 group of guards?

12 A. Nothing was happening in Jajce. It was peaceful. We were just

13 guarding the lines, touring the villages so that the enemy might come from

14 -- might not come from Mrkonjic or Kljuc or from other directions.

15 Q. Jajce was a place where very few Serbs lived; is that right?

16 A. Not few. There were quite a few of them.

17 Q. And so the guards that you were a part of were not formed because

18 there was any trouble in your area; is that right?

19 A. No.

20 Q. As part of the guards in the area, you said you patrolled the

21 villages, did you have weapons or did others have weapons?

22 A. I had a pistol on me.

23 Q. And where did your pistol come from?

24 A. It was given to me from a man for those village guards.

25 Q. And did the other village guards have weapons as well?

Page 18468

1 A. They did have weapons. Some had purchased them. They would sell

2 a cow and buy an automatic rifle.

3 Q. The man who gave you your pistol, who was he? What job did he

4 have?

5 A. He was the commander of the village guards. I know that before

6 the war he was a captain by rank and he was a reserve officer.

7 Q. Were other reserve officers involved with your village guard?

8 A. No.

9 Q. Do you know how the village guard was organised, where it got its

10 orders from?

11 A. Who they got orders from, from their superiors, I don't remember.

12 I just know that that the commander would say, "At 10.00, you have to

13 spend two or three hours at a particular position, then come home," and

14 that's how it went.

15 Q. You said you were a courier and involved in reconnaissance; is

16 that right --

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. -- when you left the area and you were captured by the Serb

19 reservists.

20 A. On the 23rd of May, 1992.

21 Q. And what were you doing at that time when you were on

22 reconnaissance? What was your function?

23 A. I had a girlfriend in the area, so I headed towards her, and at

24 the same time I wanted to see what the situation was with soldiers,

25 whether there were any units coming from the outside, and things like

Page 18469

1 that.

2 Q. And what would you have done with that information?

3 A. I didn't manage to do anything because I was caught straight away

4 by the reserve police.

5 Q. What would you have done with any information you had gained?

6 A. Well, I would go back and tell my commander, the person who gave

7 us orders. I would tell him if I had noticed any troops. I would inform

8 him, of course.

9 Q. So your role was rather like that of a spy; is that right?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And had you performed other missions like that before?

12 A. No.

13 Q. So what did you do when you were on reconnaissance otherwise?

14 Wasn't reconnaissance spying?

15 A. It depends what term people use. Some people call it

16 reconnaissance, others spying.

17 Q. And so after you were captured, as you say, and kept in detention

18 but with a certain amount of freedom thereafter, weren't you ever able to

19 escape?

20 A. I thought about it, but I didn't have a chance.

21 MR. KAY: No further questions.

22 MR. NICE: Just a few things arising, please. Before we come to

23 that, Your Honour, may I say this: The witness made two statements. He's

24 been asked a number of questions about the first one and I think some

25 about the second. It's a matter, of course, for the Chamber whether the

Page 18470

1 Chamber wants to have them. The second statement does deal in some detail

2 with the account he gives of going with the investigator to look at the

3 well. I haven't gone into this in great detail, always concerned to save

4 time. There have also been produced some photographs which I don't

5 actually have to hand of the place where he went to find the well. It may

6 be necessary to turn to this statement or to the investigator, who could

7 give evidence of the discovery of the well, in order to connect to the

8 evidence of Mr. Grujic, whose evidence the Chamber will recall in relation

9 to exhumation sites including wells.

10 I'm in the hands of the Chamber as to whether the statement should

11 be produced at this stage, but it might be a sensible precaution to have

12 them in now.

13 [Trial Chamber confers]

14 JUDGE MAY: No. We don't think we need the statements, thank

15 you.

16 MR. NICE: Very well.

17 Re-examined by Mr. Nice:

18 Q. Just tell us this, please, B-071: As you've told us you went with

19 an investigator, can you remember the name of the investigator with whom

20 you went to look for the well?

21 A. Vladimir Dzuro.

22 Q. Was there something about the replanting of an evergreen tree that

23 enabled you and Mr. Dzuro to look for the place where you said the well

24 was?

25 A. Yes.

Page 18471

1 Q. And on the basis of a replanted tree or the stump of such a tree,

2 was one or possibly two possible sites for the well identified by you?

3 A. I found this location where the tree had been planted, and it was

4 cut. So we just found the stump. We weren't quite sure, and we looked at

5 two locations and we found it at one.

6 Q. And did you leave the future dealings at that site to the

7 investigator and to members of the relevant commission looking into

8 exhumations?

9 A. Yes, because I returned to Bosnia.

10 Q. It's been suggested by the accused that you were in some way a

11 full fighting soldier in this unit. Any truth in that?

12 A. No.

13 Q. Were you a fighting soldier, would you have been paid, do you

14 know?

15 A. Perhaps I would be paid. These regular soldiers had salaries.

16 Q. Were you in fact paid any salary yourself, apart from the few

17 weeks in Belgrade?

18 A. No.

19 Q. Were you the only one doing these general tasks for Arkan's

20 soldiers or were there others in the same capacity as you?

21 A. There were others too.

22 Q. Do you know if they were paid or unpaid?

23 A. I don't know.

24 Q. In any event, if records exist of Arkan's soldiers, would you be

25 shown on them as a paid fighting soldier or not?

Page 18472

1 A. I don't know.

2 Q. Have you ever been trained in -- in detail in the use of rifles or

3 in warfare matters of the kind that Arkan's soldiers were engaged in

4 doing?

5 A. I didn't attend training.

6 Q. Mr. Kay asked you about one date in one of your statements. How

7 long were you in the Territorial Defence before you were sent to Bjelajac?

8 A. About four months.

9 MR. NICE: And, Your Honour, I can tell you without wearying you

10 with the statement that the passage dealing with 1991 is followed by a

11 paragraph that takes us immediately to May 1992, consistent with his

12 account that it's four months, and therefore it would appear to be it's an

13 error in the statement, a typographical error or whatever, because both

14 make sense if they're 1992.

15 Q. Did you ever go with Arkan's soldiers when they were operational

16 to see what they were doing and whether they were acting properly or

17 whether they were committing war crimes, the accused having used the

18 suggestion of war crimes in one of his questions?

19 A. I was at Mrkonjic in Perici. There were operations. That was the

20 only case when I saw a knife being stuck in the captive's back and Arkan

21 killing a captive.

22 JUDGE MAY: Yes.

23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May, I think that Mr. Nice's

24 question is inappropriate, because he says that I suggested to him, the

25 witness, that war crimes had been committed, whereas in fact, quite to the

Page 18473












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Page 18474

1 contrary, I asked him whether he ever saw anyone committing any war crime.

2 And before that, I asked him whether he was with the unit all the time,

3 and he said he was with the unit all the time wherever it moved. And then

4 he confirmed that he didn't see any crime.


6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Therefore, I think it's misleading

7 the witness.

8 MR. NICE: The accused used a question directed at the witness

9 referring to whether he was with other war criminals.

10 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Mr. Nice, can you finish in five minutes, do you

11 think?

12 MR. NICE: I can, yes.

13 Q. It's been asked whether you were ever recorded as missing. Can

14 you look, please - and this is obviously not displayed on the overhead

15 projector - at this document to become a new exhibit, an extract from --

16 thank you very much.

17 MR. NICE: Your Honour will see the title of the document. The

18 witness can just have it in front of him.

19 Q. This is an International Committee of the Red Cross document,

20 Missing Persons on the Territory of Bosnia and Herzegovina.

21 JUDGE MAY: Is it to be produced in due course.

22 MR. NICE: It is, Your Honour, yes, but it will have to be under

23 seal. I see. Whether the whole document is produced I'm not sure, but

24 I'm just going to produce the one extract at the moment. It's the 4th

25 edition, dated the 30th of June, 1998.

Page 18475

1 Q. And if you, Witness B-071, would look on the left-hand column --

2 I'm not going to give the page number, for obvious reasons. Just look on

3 the left-hand column, nine entries up, that is, just yes or no, is that

4 your name and date of birth? Just yes or no to that question.

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Thank you. The accused suggested to you that there was something

7 improbable in your being taken by Zikic to Bosnia. In fact, when taken to

8 Bosnia by Zikic, what was the first thing that happened to you?

9 A. Could you be more specific, please?

10 Q. Were you taken home or were you, as you've told us, taken us

11 somewhere else, namely a police station where you were imprisoned?

12 A. They took me to the prison, to the Kamenolom prison in Doboj.

13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May.

14 JUDGE MAY: Yes.

15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] He wasn't taken to Bosnia, he was in

16 Bosnia. Jajce is in Bosnia.

17 MR. NICE: Very well.

18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Again he's being misled.

19 MR. NICE:

20 Q. Where were you taken from by Zikic?

21 A. Zikic took me from Belgrade and took me to Doboj, to the prison

22 there called Kamenolom. No.

23 Q. It has been suggested that you could have left Arkan's employment

24 or use for you at any stage. If you had acted contrary to Arkan's wishes,

25 what, in your judgement, would have happened to you?

Page 18476

1 A. He asked, "Do you want to return to Bosnia or do you want to stay

2 and continue working as a baker?"

3 Q. Generally, if you had acted contrary to Arkan's wishes, what would

4 have happened to you, do you think? I see the accused is amused. What

5 would have happened to you? Please think about that.

6 A. There were cases where people were slapped. If a baker doesn't

7 make the bread properly, he might get slapped.

8 Q. And the last question is this: You have been asked a number of

9 questions about number 29 on your list, Macak, cat, but just to be quite

10 clear, you've spoken of seeing his picture on the wall, and the accused

11 has suggested to you you can't have seen him at the particular time

12 because he was already in prison.

13 Did you actually see in the flesh or did you only see his picture

14 and name on the wall? Which is it?

15 A. I saw him on a photograph on the wall, together with Arkan's

16 soldiers. I didn't know this Kaljavi, for instance. He got killed. But

17 they told me that this was Kaljavi, and that's how it was.

18 Q. Thank you.

19 MR. NICE: That's all I ask of this witness.

20 JUDGE MAY: Do you want the --

21 MR. NICE: Yes.

22 JUDGE MAY: -- Red Cross list exhibited.

23 MR. NICE: Yes, please.

24 JUDGE MAY: Tab 4, possibly most convenient.

25 MR. NICE: Tab 4 under seal.

Page 18477

1 JUDGE MAY: Under seal.

2 MR. NICE: Yes. Thank you.

3 JUDGE MAY: Just a moment. Just a moment.

4 Witness B-071, that concludes your evidence. Thank you for coming

5 to the International Tribunal to give it. You are now free to go. Would

6 you just wait a moment until the arrangements are made.

7 [The witness withdrew]

8 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Milosevic, we're going to adjourn now.

9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, but I wanted to raise certain

10 issues, and I think that despite this interruption, I expect you to reduce

11 the degree of intolerance with respect to my objections. Namely, we were

12 talking about health problems when you interrupted me the day before

13 yesterday.

14 JUDGE MAY: Yes. We are now going to have a break. Then we are

15 going to go on to the procedural matters. When we're dealing with

16 procedural matters, you'll be free to raise anything or any relevant

17 matters you wish to such as those about your health. You will have the

18 chance of doing it after the break.

19 We will adjourn now. Twenty minutes.

20 --- Recess taken at 12.32 p.m.

21 --- On resuming at 12.55 p.m.

22 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Nice, we have got this hour at least for

23 procedural matters. In fact, we can't sit beyond 1.50 in the event

24 because of commitments of various sorts. So we've got 55 minutes during

25 which we must deal with the matters you want to raise, those that the

Page 18478

1 accused wants to raise, anything that the amici want to raise, and then

2 start on the 92 bis witnesses, which I'm anxious to do, obviously.

3 Can I say, remind you, perhaps, of how far we'd got. On the 3rd

4 of March, you addressed the Trial Chamber on this topic and produced a

5 chart which I recollect. Only Judge Kwon and I were present. Judge

6 Robinson was ill at the time. And I had two main points which I noted

7 that you wanted us to consider; that evidence-in-chief be given in written

8 form, and that we should consider the time to be apportioned in terms of

9 the witnesses to be called.

10 Now, those were the two things which I had noted. There may have

11 been something else which I missed, but those were the matters which you

12 wanted us to consider.

13 MR. NICE: I think absolutely right. I was immediately not sure

14 what you meant by your second point, but I think I now understand what it

15 was that I was saying that was reflected in that observation. And, Your

16 Honour, I think I can be pretty brief today, always anxious to take as

17 little time as possible on procedural matters. Before I return to those

18 issues, can I respectfully remind the Chamber that are two outstanding

19 motions which will bear on the timetable of the trial. There's the

20 adjudicated facts motion of the 12th of December of last year.

21 Now, another Chamber, the Krajisnik Chamber, has dealt with a

22 similar application and has made a determination of a number of facts that

23 it is prepared to take as adjudicated facts. We would respectfully invite

24 you to consider their list. It's a rather easy way into the problem.

25 It's probably rather broader or slightly broader than the application we

Page 18479

1 originally made, and we've got copies of their list for you. We'll file

2 it as --

3 JUDGE MAY: Can I tell that you in fact we've considered this

4 matter, and the order is being drafted at the moment. I'm not anxious to

5 reopen it.

6 Just a moment. Let me consider.

7 [Trial Chamber confers]

8 JUDGE MAY: No. We have fully considered this matter and the

9 various written submissions, which are very fully briefed, and we don't

10 wish to hear any more on the topic.

11 MR. NICE: Then there's the Foca transcript 92 bis application of

12 the 10th of January.

13 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Which are very much due for consideration. We

14 haven't yet considered them but we will.

15 MR. NICE: Thank you. Your Honour is quite right, that of the

16 various proposals to shorten the proceedings, the one I was focusing on on

17 the last occasion was the use of written statements as evidence in chief

18 principally because I think effectively all other proposals that I had

19 made have been concluded, mostly against the proposals I made or all

20 against the proposals I made, and I don't wish to reopen those, the Court

21 having particularly dealt with the question of imposition of counsel on

22 the accused, and of course by the procedure that's been adopted, having

23 dealt clearly with the limits both as to time and topic of

24 cross-examination by the accused.

25 There's one other topic that was outstanding which I will deal

Page 18480

1 with comprehensively at the end of this short submission that should be

2 dealt with in closed session, and I'll return to that.

3 Your Honour, we've obviously been having a very -- keeping a close

4 watch on the timetable. We've been watching the 92 bis decisions with

5 interest and inevitably some concern and would respectfully and gently

6 observe that as it reads, the 92 bis (D) decision, which allows

7 comprehensive cross-examination, apparently unlimited as to time --

8 JUDGE MAY: It won't be unlimited as to time.

9 MR. NICE: No, but would appear to be more difficult for timetable

10 than 92 bis (B) where the expectation is that the total exercise will be

11 no more than one hour per witness. We've obviously had to assume that

12 later decisions may broadly follow those given already, although we

13 recognise that each 92 bis decision has to be considered on its merits,

14 and I fear we've come now to the conclusion that it isn't going to be

15 possible for us to fit the required material for the Bosnian indictment

16 into the time allowed nor indeed to prove the -- all of the crime base for

17 the Croatia indictment in the time originally allowed.

18 I take on myself personally the responsibility for not simply

19 waiting until the end of allowed time and then saying, well, we now need

20 more time. It doesn't seem to me an appropriate approach and I will not

21 take it, therefore, I'm informing the Chamber now that we are in the

22 position where we will have to make an application for more time, and that

23 will be coming your way in writing as soon as can be.

24 I should say that we've obviously reconsidered all the steps we've

25 taken before -- not steps, the proposals we made before; dossiers, summary

Page 18481

1 witnesses and so on, wondering whether we should attempt to reopen those

2 issues.

3 JUDGE MAY: So we can clarify this, your application will be for

4 more time beyond the May 16th plus time lost.

5 MR. NICE: Yes, it will be.

6 JUDGE MAY: The time lost we calculate now as being 54 days.

7 MR. NICE: We haven't done a recent calculation but --

8 JUDGE MAY: That's our calculation.

9 MR. NICE: I'm sure it will be roughly the same. And the Chamber

10 saw how we made our calculations that led to the chart that we hoped was

11 helpful, and the various earlier discussion papers that we provided you in

12 order to ensure that you're always aware of where we are. And I've tried

13 to be completely open -- or I have been completely open in how I'm

14 planning this case.

15 But on the basis that your decisions on dossiers and summarising

16 witnesses and so on have been made before, it seemed although possible,

17 likely to be undesirable to spend time and energy on addressing those

18 issues afresh for the present parts of the case, and so the application

19 for more time will be made on the basis that those issues have now been

20 effectively determined for the purposes of this trial.

21 And that does leave, as Your Honour has rightly identified,

22 outstanding the possibility of saving some time by the use of either

23 original witness statements or summaries that are specifically gone

24 through and adopted by witnesses as evidence in chief. I don't think

25 there's anything more I need to say about that as a proposal beyond what

Page 18482

1 is said in the various pleadings. It's a method that is well-known to

2 several jurisdictions for judge-only trials, and of course it saves a

3 considerable amount of time.

4 Can I --

5 JUDGE MAY: We will have to think about that. I suppose one

6 problem is that we already have a procedure for doing this, and that is

7 Rule 92 bis.

8 MR. NICE: Well, our submission on that would be -- is that 92 bis

9 is actually really aimed principally to avoid attendance of witnesses at

10 all, despite the way it's been applied generally in -- or most often in

11 this Chamber, it's really to save witnesses from attendance at all. And

12 what we are proposing is something different from that, although it's

13 rather similar to what actually does happen with some of our 92 bis

14 witnesses, that is to say we're simply proposing that a witness who is

15 going to be here can put his evidence in chief in more swiftly by saying,

16 "Yes, I've gone through this statement and, yes, every word of it is

17 accurate," and then being submitted immediately to cross-examination or --

18 JUDGE MAY: If may be more convenient if it's in the form of a

19 summary.

20 MR. NICE: Yes.

21 JUDGE MAY: I mean, the point about 92 bis is that it has the

22 added sanction of being sworn to.

23 MR. NICE: But -- yes.

24 JUDGE MAY: And that clearly, when you've got statements which are

25 as broad as these statements frequently are, is a sanction of a sort.

Page 18483












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Page 18484

1 MR. NICE: Your Honour, yes. That adds to the weight of a

2 previous statement as amended or corrected, if it has to be amended or

3 corrected, but of course the minute a witness takes the solemn declaration

4 and says, for example, in respect of a summary, "Yes I have gone through

5 this summary word-for-word and it is true, I've signed every page," or

6 whatever it may be, then he's subject to the sanction of the Court, and

7 that's the reason the system works to the extent that it does work in

8 other jurisdictions and does not free the witness in any way from his

9 responsibility of truthfulness.

10 It's obviously --

11 JUDGE MAY: So if the witness was to make a summary and then,

12 under declaration, state that it's true, thinking aloud about this

13 procedure, a summary would have to be based very much on the statement,

14 because otherwise the other side wouldn't have had the time. The Defence

15 and the amici wouldn't have had the time to read it.

16 Well, we'll certainly consider it.

17 MR. NICE: Yes. The practice of civil courts in the United

18 Kingdom but I understand elsewhere is that of course witness statements

19 are prepared in advance and are served and the first question that the

20 witness is asked in the witness box is, "Is your statement true?" and he

21 may or may not be invited or allowed by the Court to go through a few

22 central bits of evidence for acclimatization to the Court and for similar

23 purposes, but after that, cross-examination.

24 It doesn't halve the time that a witness will take but it very,

25 very substantially reduces it. Of course, it reduces it at the cost to

Page 18485

1 the Prosecution of the vitality of examination-in-chief, but we have to

2 have such regard to the timetable that that's something we would be

3 prepared to forego because, by saving time, we get more evidence in the

4 same amount of time.

5 There's the associated difficulty of the public trial. This

6 problem could probably only be met by summaries being -- well, it can be

7 met by summaries being provided as exhibits -- not -- yes, as exhibits

8 after the witness gives evidence. Of course, for reporters it would

9 always be desirable if they could see the material a little in advance to

10 make more sense of the cross-examination. Those are probably matters of

11 fine-tuning, although one -- I recognise that bringing such a practice

12 into play in this Tribunal would not be without practical difficulties,

13 the principal difficulty being that those of us proofing witnesses would

14 have to have that process completed a little earlier and, of course, the

15 proofing summaries would have to be gone through on a word-by-word,

16 line-by-line basis with an interpreter for adoption by the witness.

17 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Nice, one result of this procedure, if it is

18 institutionalised, is that the Chamber would end up with not as full an

19 opportunity of assessing the demeanour of the witness as it would

20 otherwise have had were we to simply introduce the witness's statement.

21 It is true that you can assess the demeanour from

22 cross-examination, and you of course would also have the opportunity to

23 re-examine, but I think something would be lost in a procedure that

24 becomes institutionalised where, on a wholesale basis, we simply have the

25 statements of witnesses. That's my preliminary observation.

Page 18486

1 MR. NICE: Your Honour, I think it's an observation I've heard

2 Your Honour make before. I've dealt with it in one of the footnotes of

3 one of our filings to this extent in this way: Yes, examination-in-chief

4 may have some assistance for purposes of credibility, although it has to

5 be recognised that by the time of examination-in-chief, the witness will

6 have gone over the material inevitably and quite properly on several

7 occasions so that the value for purposes of credibility is probably

8 significantly less in examination-in-chief than it is in

9 cross-examination. And of course where facts are not challenged, there's

10 -- although it's nice to have them presented by a live witness and a great

11 deal easier in some ways than having to read it, if they're not

12 challenged, then there's no need for them to come live.

13 The other point that of course His Honour Judge Kwon made a long

14 time ago now is that if you have a document that is attested to in some

15 way in detail by a witness, then every part of that statement or summary,

16 whatever it is, is before you and we don't have, as we so often have to do

17 here, to say, simply for want of time, let's skip that paragraph and skip

18 that paragraph, which may ultimately turn out to be of value.

19 There are pluses and minuses, of course, with all procedural

20 reforms, but this one is one that, for Judge-only trials, is I think now

21 well tested and accepted, and the opportunity for cross-examination is an

22 opportunity fully to test the witness.

23 JUDGE ROBINSON: Just let me know: The procedure in the United

24 Kingdom that you refer to, is it used in criminal cases?

25 MR. NICE: It's used in civil cases.

Page 18487

1 JUDGE ROBINSON: In civil only.

2 MR. NICE: Where there are Judge-only trials. Criminal cases, of

3 course -- well, criminal cases that have juries couldn't have that system

4 at the moment, and criminal cases before magistrates are still conducted

5 on the, as far as I can understand and know, are still conducted on the

6 traditional basis. So it's civil only cases.

7 JUDGE ROBINSON: That may not be the only reason why it is not

8 used in criminal cases. I mean, the fact that there is a jury in criminal

9 cases may not be the only reason. It may be just the nature of the

10 proceeding itself.

11 MR. NICE: Well, Your Honour I -- I --

12 JUDGE ROBINSON: Where the liberty of the accused is at stake.

13 MR. NICE: I can see no reason why there should be any other

14 particular reason other than the fact that there's a jury, because after

15 all, the assessor of fact has to deal with material in the way that's best

16 and if this was not the best way of dealing with assessment of facts for

17 the very important issues tried in civil litigation, then I'm sure it

18 wouldn't be permitted.

19 It is, I think, simply a reflection in our courts, for example, in

20 the United Kingdom but I understand elsewhere, of the need to bring

21 efficiency to proceedings in a way that doesn't conflict with fair

22 disposal of cases.

23 So there it is.

24 JUDGE KWON: Having come from the civil law countries, I would say

25 I'm much more familiar with that regime than the other colleagues, but the

Page 18488

1 problem here is that the -- is our Rule, Rule 92 bis. How would you

2 rationalise the apparent contradiction with the Rule 92 bis? What will be

3 our rationale?

4 MR. NICE: First of all, the underlying problem and the problem to

5 which we simply cannot get round is the conflict between the length of the

6 time that all these large trials will take if explored fully on the

7 traditional oral basis and the need to bring about judicial economy, and

8 decisions have to be made that confront that on a realistic basis.

9 92 bis's function, Your Honour, was, as I suggested, really to

10 allow in evidence of a witness in a written statement without his

11 necessarily being available at all for cross-examination.

12 JUDGE MAY: Not so. It was to allow the evidence in, but it's in

13 two parts. One is to allow the evidence in; the second part is whether

14 you should order cross-examination or not.

15 MR. NICE: Oh, certainly, yes.

16 JUDGE MAY: So it's a two-part rule. It's not quite right to say

17 it's purely aimed at stopping cross-examination.

18 MR. NICE: Absolutely not its fundamental purpose, although it

19 originally may have been introduced for the purposes of allowing evidence

20 in that wasn't going to be cross-examined at all. What we are proposing

21 is a system whereby there will be no question but that the accused will be

22 allowed to cross-examine. Of course he would. The expectation is the

23 witness would give his evidence and be cross-examined, it's simply the

24 method by which he gives his evidence. So there is no two-part 92 bis

25 procedures to be gone through to that extent at all.

Page 18489

1 JUDGE MAY: Well, coming back to my original point is why not use

2 Rule 92 bis? Why not use it for all the witnesses? It would limit you on

3 the acts and conduct of the accused, of course, but probably a Trial

4 Chamber would want that evidence to be given live anyway, direct evidence

5 of that sort. But indirect evidence is catered for in 92 bis.

6 MR. NICE: Well, Your Honour, that's a position we'd, I think,

7 broadly achieved towards the end of the Croatian section of the indictment

8 where --

9 JUDGE MAY: Kosovo.

10 MR. NICE: The Kosovo section of the indictment where we were

11 doing exactly that. We've departed from that throughout the Croatia part

12 of the indictment because we've had these various applications pending and

13 because the nature of the witnesses has by and large been rather

14 different, they having been more substantial linkage witnesses for the

15 most part, and we've confined 92 bis to crime base. But subject to the

16 ability of the Registry to provide the 92 bis formal procedure, there is,

17 of course, absolutely no problem with going down that route. The problem

18 tends to be, or has been in the past, that finding the Registry time to 92

19 bis a statement has sometimes proved difficult.

20 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Well, I think we have the argument.

21 MR. NICE: And the -- one tiny additional point: Of course,

22 witnesses from time to time in any event do give evidence by written

23 materials when they produce, as for example the last witness did, a list

24 and then to some degree we always allow written materials to go in, but

25 it's typically on that sort of a basis.

Page 18490

1 Just a couple more points then. First, I must alert the Chamber

2 to the fact that from the general list of witnesses, there continue to be

3 additions to the list and subtractions from it. Two points on that.

4 Additions to the list are going to continue to be made. Not only have

5 there been outstanding inquiries of our own but recent events in the

6 former Yugoslavia are changing the attitude of witnesses in various ways.

7 Sometimes witnesses are unwilling and, as a result of very recent events,

8 seen evidence where they were willing before. Sometimes we're getting

9 people coming and being available. Either they weren't available before

10 or we had no knowledge of them. That's likely to continue, and of course

11 it's our duty to ensure that we get the best possible evidence available

12 to you, whether by application to add or application to substitute.

13 You will already have seen applications where we've applied to add

14 witnesses and deleted others. It's always been more deletions than

15 additions, and I think there's another such motion coming your way fairly

16 soon.

17 Can I say in advance there's no bargaining tactic in my mind. We

18 don't, as it were, hold back witnesses we're going to delete so that we've

19 got some to delete for the next addition. As soon as there are people to

20 delete, we delete them, but it may mean, because we're deleting rather

21 more than we're adding at the moment, it may mean there will come a time

22 before the end of the case where we will be asking to add names and there

23 won't be any comparable deletions, but we are playing straight on that, as

24 you would expect from us.

25 JUDGE MAY: When you come to make your application for more time,

Page 18491

1 perhaps you would be good enough to follow the same spirit. It would be

2 helpful to know precisely what you're asking for rather than, "Can we have

3 more time, please?"

4 MR. NICE: That's exactly my next point, and it picks up on the

5 second point that Your Honour remembers my making on the last occasion.

6 In light of the fact that of course the time taken by witnesses is

7 partly in our hands but also partly in the hands of the Chamber, the

8 accused, and the amici, we will be asking you to consider, I think in the

9 motion, as an alternative to a set amount of time, allowing time to

10 accommodate the particular witnesses or particular number of witnesses for

11 the various topics we can identify, because respectfully, it seems to us

12 that that may be a rather more realistic way of dealing with it,

13 especially if the Chamber can be sure, as I very much hope it can be, that

14 in leading evidence in chief, we are as economic as we possibly can be,

15 economic in a way that will be further improved if by chance more use can

16 be made of 92 bis.

17 Indeed, if many or most of the remaining witnesses were to be

18 capable of being taken 92 bis, and if the Chamber were to identify by

19 number, list, or whatever the witnesses for each topic that could be

20 called, then it would be the Chamber's control of cross-examination that

21 would be effectively determinative of how long the case would take.

22 There's one short witness matter that I'd like to deal with in

23 closed session, if I may.

24 THE REGISTRAR: Closed session or private session?

25 MR. NICE: Private session, I mean.

Page 18492

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Page 18493

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21 [Open session]

22 MR. NICE: And one last point in open session. We'd be grateful

23 for your assistance in relation to Mr. McCormack whose presence I welcome,

24 as indeed I welcome him if it's so open to me to do so. His role, as we

25 understand it, is different from that of the other amici and is to write

Page 18494












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Page 18495

1 briefs. We would be grateful for some clarification of what that amounts

2 to, and I'll give you a particular reason for our making that request.

3 It seems to us that the issue of Croatia's independence and

4 statehood is quite an important matter in this case, the date of it, when

5 it's effective. It's a matter apt for the opinion of an international

6 lawyer.

7 At the moment, we are undecided as to -- not undecided -- yes, we

8 are undecided as to whether we should seek to call an expert to deal with

9 that or whether we should try to deal with it in another way, particularly

10 in light of Mr. McCormack being here.

11 Now, if he is an advocate, then we can discuss it with him, and if

12 the accused had an advocate we could discuss it with him and with a

13 representative of the accused to try and identify whether there are

14 matters that are common ground between us or whether -- and what matters

15 need to be resolved. If Mr. McCormack was an expert, which he isn't, of

16 course, then any opinion he'd give is one that we could cross-examine.

17 But if, for example, the Chamber were to decide that this was a topic on

18 which it would want assistance from Mr. McCormack, the question is whether

19 that would then be in the form of an opinion as if he were an expert or --

20 JUDGE MAY: He's an amicus. He's not an expert. He certainly

21 can't be cross-examined.

22 MR. NICE: Of course. Exactly, we recognise that, and I wasn't --

23 I'm just identifying the problem. I discussed it briefly with Mr.

24 McCormack yesterday.

25 JUDGE MAY: In speaking for myself, if you want to discuss

Page 18496

1 something with him, I can't see why you shouldn't.

2 MR. NICE: The problem there is it will only ever be bilateral and

3 not trilateral and therefore I'm cautious about doing that, particularly

4 on a topic that we know is important to the accused. But -- so there is

5 outstanding, for us, the question of how we should deal with this

6 particular topic, when did Croatia become independent. It may be Mr.

7 McCormack will be able to assist on that.

8 [Trial Chamber confers]

9 JUDGE MAY: Well, Mr. Nice, we think that ultimately it's a matter

10 for you what course you take about that particular issue, what submissions

11 you want to make. If we want an opinion from the amicus, we'll ask for

12 it.

13 MR. NICE: Very well, then. The course I think I'll take is to

14 serve on the amicus -- amici and the accused -- I probably will serve what

15 our argument would be on this topic as a draft document. I needn't

16 probably -- I can serve it on the Chamber as well.

17 JUDGE MAY: It's a matter for argument rather than some expert

18 being called to say, I would have thought, speaking for myself. But

19 anyway, follow that course and we'll see what is necessary.

20 MR. NICE: And we would be grateful for sanction of there being

21 bilateral discussions on this if the accused elects to bar his own

22 representatives from speaking to us on the topic.

23 JUDGE MAY: Let us consider that in due course.

24 MR. NICE: Thank you.

25 JUDGE MAY: Not for the moment.

Page 18497

1 [Trial Chamber confers]

2 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Are there any matters the amici want to raise

3 before we go on to the accused?

4 MR. KAY: There is a matter. It's not pressing. It does concern

5 the future conduct of the case, but I'm very conscious that we have got

6 the 92 bis arguments to conclude, and maybe it would be preferable if that

7 took priority. I could write something --

8 JUDGE MAY: Could you? It would, I think, save time.

9 MR. KAY: Yes.

10 JUDGE MAY: If it's not pressing.

11 MR. KAY: It's not pressing but it is to do with the end of the

12 Prosecution case and what happens then.

13 JUDGE MAY: Yes. We will be considering that so if you would put

14 it into writing, we'll consider it.

15 MR. KAY: Yes.

16 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Now, Mr. Milosevic, what is it you want to

17 raise?

18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May, I wish to raise a couple of

19 matters, and the substantive one has to do with the issue you addressed a

20 moment ago. I won't engage in any qualifications, I just wish to present

21 facts, and most resolutely to demand that you take a position about it.

22 But before I say that, I have a prior matter, namely according to

23 your rules on the Detention Unit, and I am referring to Rule number 30, I

24 have the right to be examined by my own doctor. I was seriously ill some

25 time ago - I don't need to give you the dates, you are well aware of them

Page 18498

1 - and I requested to be examined by my doctor. This was not permitted.

2 And I would like you to tell me why that was not allowed, and I request

3 that such a decision would not be taken again.

4 So very briefly, that is one point that I wish to raise. And I

5 would like to hear your answer, please.

6 JUDGE MAY: Dealing with that, the conduct of the Detention Unit,

7 as you know, is not a matter for this Trial Chamber. It is a matter for

8 the Registrar. We will raise the question which you raise with us with

9 the Registrar. Yes.

10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Now, a fundamental matter that is

11 linked to the previous one. I believe that this entire debate regarding

12 procedural matters, the method of calling witnesses, the presentation of

13 documents, which is guided primarily by the need for expediency and saving

14 of time, is quite nonsensical in light of the facts we are confronted

15 with, the facts that I have referred to on a number of occasions here in

16 public and to which I was always given the answer that you would consider

17 them, but I never received any response. Namely, I have asked you

18 questions relevant to the volume and quantity of documents that have been

19 served on me. And about a month ago, this so-called Prosecution admitted

20 in this table that was served that, according to them, about 320 or 30.000

21 pages were served on me, and according to my calculations, about 400.000,

22 not counting about 2.000 videotapes, a thousand audio cassettes, and so

23 on.

24 Therefore, will you please consider the elementary logic that

25 these figures imply if we take it that an individual can read daily 500

Page 18499

1 pages, just materials provided by the opposite side, not counting the

2 documents that he himself has to study or -- and which are provided by his

3 associates and which are relevant and which he has to study to be able to

4 reciprocate, so therefore, taking into consideration only what is provided

5 by the opposing side, and if it were possible for an individual to read

6 500 pages only once without making any notes or anything, then I would

7 need 800 days to do that for 400.000 pages.

8 Bear in mind that on this table, it says that at the end of

9 January, because at the beginning of February the so-called Kosovo case

10 ended, then less than 20.000 pages. Then throughout the Kosovo case, all

11 these other pages were served, and just before the beginning of the

12 Croatian case, as you call it, I was confronted with 200.000 pages which

13 were disclosed to me in the course of the Kosovo case which I had no

14 chance of considering in any way whatsoever, and then this figure went up

15 to 400.000 pages.

16 Therefore, if we leave aside the fact that I need to examine at

17 least as many documents from the other side prepared by my associates,

18 just for this lot I would need 800 pages [as interpreted].

19 Therefore, all your comments about expediency fail confronted with

20 the fact that you have deprived me of my basic right to familiarise myself

21 at least with what is being said here. And let us leave aside also that

22 we are not hearing any acts on my part, evidence about any acts on my part

23 but various incidents from the civil war in Bosnia and Croatia about which

24 I have to collect information indirectly as I couldn't have had them as

25 Serbia was not a participant in that war.

Page 18500

1 Therefore, if you bear in mind these facts that you have not

2 responded to for several months, my question now is: When do you think it

3 is possible for me just to read through what I have been given? And your

4 answer has always been that you will rule about this, that you will

5 consider it. Therefore, the whole thing, as is evident, is being reduced

6 to physical mistreatment, and I think --

7 JUDGE MAY: We're not listening to submissions of that sort. You

8 have a point -- you have a point which is a matter for consideration which

9 has not been considered heretofore partly because of the breaks in the

10 proceedings necessitated by your illness.

11 Now, what are you asking us to do? What are you asking for?

12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May, first of all, I would like

13 to express my opinion.

14 JUDGE MAY: I asked you a question.

15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] And that is that any legal court --

16 JUDGE MAY: No. We've heard your opinions. Now I'm asking you a

17 question. You make these complaints. What are you asking us to do?

18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May, precisely what your amici

19 have suggested to you and which you have chosen to ignore, and that is

20 that you give me time to recover and to prepare myself on the basis of

21 what has already been served on me which I have before me as a job that I

22 need to do and which it is impossible to do under these conditions. It is

23 impossible to do this and recover and to ensure something that you might

24 consider just.

25 JUDGE MAY: No. You are asking -- are you asking us for an

Page 18501

1 adjournment of the proceedings?

2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I am asking you to release me for

3 the time that is necessary, as was requested by the amici, first to

4 recover and then to be able to read the documents that have been served on

5 me and to collect the appropriate documents, information, and facts which

6 are necessary so that I should not be deprived of the fundamental right

7 that you yourself have proclaimed, and that is the right to defend myself

8 and to defend those who have been attacked in this way, because I repeat

9 again, this illegal court of yours is a means of warfare against my

10 country.

11 JUDGE MAY: Just a moment.

12 [Trial Chamber confers]

13 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Nice, I want to know this: He complains,

14 does the accused, of all these pages. You served a document on us, as I

15 recollect, or on the Court. You can help us now as to the pages which

16 relate to future witnesses as opposed to witnesses which have occurred in

17 the past.

18 MR. NICE: The document to which you refer was served, a filing of

19 the 12th of February, and it contains the chart that covers disclosure by

20 the month, breaking it down as to disclosure under Rule 68, Rule 66(B),

21 Rule 66(A)(ii).

22 There are a couple of points to be made before I respond to Your

23 Honour's question. First, the quantity of disclosure simply reflects the

24 rules of the Chamber -- I beg your pardon, the rules of the institution

25 for disclosure of material in various categories to the accused.

Page 18502

1 The second point is --

2 JUDGE MAY: Since he has dealt with it in public, you can answer

3 in public as to the amount relating to the various categories.

4 MR. NICE: Certainly, yes. Can I come to that in a second?

5 Within the material being served on any particular day and any

6 particular month, there has been a high level, I think, of duplication

7 arising from the fact that the accused was served with a lot of material

8 initially and in accordance with the timetable of the Tribunal which, he

9 having no lawyers acting for him, he initially required to be re-served on

10 him on a witness-by-witness basis and from which we thereafter elected,

11 with encouragement of the Court, as I recollect it, to serve on him on a

12 witness-by-witness basis. So there has been a substantial measure of

13 duplication. I'll confirm this for tomorrow to make sure that what I'm

14 saying in relation to a topic which I wasn't necessarily expecting, is

15 accurate, but that's my understanding.

16 The third general point is that material served under Rule 68

17 would, in relation to this accused given the position he had, be very,

18 very considerable. It was, as the Chamber will recall, pursuant to a

19 policy that I introduced at the beginning of the trial that we identified

20 so far as we could the materials we would be searching for Rule 68

21 material, and we identified the parameters we would be applying to those

22 materials to search for Rule 68 material, inviting the accused and the

23 amici to -- and indeed the Chamber, to reflect on these parameters, we

24 being flexible and prepared to change them as appropriate, but I think

25 there have been no notification from the accused or his representatives

Page 18503

1 that he wishes the parameters changed.

2 So the last point that ought to be made is this: The accused

3 complains of the quantity of material that has been provided to him. The

4 Chamber will also bear in mind, I hope, that my colleagues have been

5 assiduous in serving on him in advance of every witness, and beyond the

6 duties of the Prosecution, the exhibits that they believe relate to the

7 witness some days before so that he's been in a position the best to

8 prepare himself; and the Chamber will not have missed the point that the

9 accused has never wanted for a question to ask of a witness to fill the

10 available time, or almost never, and as well as being able to deal with

11 witnesses on the basis of the materials we have provided, he's also been

12 able, clearly, to research a large quantity of material available to him

13 but not to us to deal with those witnesses.

14 The graphs or charts that have been produced show disclosure by

15 the month up and until January of this year, breaking the material down

16 between what is 68, what is 66(B) and what is 66(A)(ii). Perhaps the

17 overhead projector, because I don't think the Court has the material with

18 it.

19 JUDGE MAY: Not to hand, no.

20 MR. NICE: Just put it on the overhead projector. There's no

21 reason why it shouldn't be seen. Public filing in any event.

22 So you see a pattern there with a particular high spot in May of

23 last year, another high spot in October, and I think that the May high

24 spot reflected to the timetabling of the Croatia and Bosnia parts of the

25 indictment - I'll be corrected if I'm wrong on this - but I think it

Page 18504

1 relates to the timetabling of those and the fact that the requirements of

2 Rule 66 then bit at about that date. So a large quantity of material had

3 to be provided. The disclosure figures are on the left-hand side. The

4 white boxes are 68, the other two shades are the two parts of 66,

5 66(A)(ii), and 66 (B). So, Your Honour, we can look at the other charts

6 but that's the global figure.

7 Can I have that the chart back and I'll see if there is another

8 one that may help the Judges.

9 But the reality is that of course a case like this is going to

10 involve a great deal of material. That's what happens when a former head

11 of state finds himself facing these charges.

12 We have done all we can first to comply with the requirements of

13 this Tribunal but achieving economy by identifying tight parameters for 68

14 wherever we can. We've gone further in attempting to make life easy, or

15 easier, for the accused by serving him material on the relevant basis in

16 preparation of witnesses.

17 This chart shows differently constructed. The white passage is

18 Bosnia, the darker passage is Croatia, and the middle colour -- passage --

19 THE INTERPRETER: Could you please come closer to the microphone.

20 MR. NICE: And the middle colour - thank you very much - is

21 Kosovo. And I then return to Your Honour's question about the amount of

22 material that relates to outstanding as opposed to past witnesses. I'm

23 not sure how possible it's going to be to deal with that quickly, but it

24 may be that this chart will help you have some idea of the material thus

25 far served until January that is Bosnia related, that being, of course,

Page 18505












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 18506

1 the immediate upcoming part of the trial.

2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May.

3 JUDGE MAY: Just a moment. I suppose one matter of concern -- we

4 can have the chart back, the usher needn't stay there. One matter of

5 concern, and I see we have got two minutes left, is if there is any

6 question of ongoing disclosure beyond January.

7 MR. NICE: Yes, there is. We've disclosed, I'm told, some 6.000

8 pages since January, and I should alert the Chamber to this: The Chamber

9 will recall that I invited, in his interests, the accused to defer

10 preparation of topics of Srebrenica and Sarajevo until a later stage when

11 I could confine so far as possible the materials that he would have to

12 consider on those two very large topics, and the intention was and perhaps

13 still is that we should take those topics at the end of the case, but

14 there will be a substantial amount of disclosure in respect of those yet

15 to come.

16 JUDGE ROBINSON: That 6.000 is 66 or 68?

17 MR. NICE: I haven't got that broken down; it's a mixture. And it

18 may also of course contain a considerable amount of duplication, but

19 again, although I make that point, I'd rather be in a position to confirm

20 it tomorrow.

21 JUDGE MAY: We need to know what the duplication is, because that

22 clearly has a bearing on the accused's position.

23 MR. NICE: Yes.

24 JUDGE MAY: If it's duplicated, that's one thing. If it isn't, it

25 isn't. We will have to consider ourselves whether the time hasn't come

Page 18507

1 when there could be no more disclosure at all. We are one year into the

2 Prosecution case. Beyond that. The time has really come to stop

3 disclosure.

4 MR. NICE: Your Honour, the problem there would be that we would

5 have -- with great respect, we would have to make Rule 68 disclosure.

6 JUDGE MAY: I agree. 68 would remain, but any more disclosure for

7 the Prosecution.

8 MR. NICE: Your Honour, I certainly would seek to be heard further

9 on that.

10 JUDGE MAY: Yes.

11 MR. NICE: When we've perhaps been able to come back with a little

12 more detail of the kind.

13 JUDGE MAY: What we may say is no disclosure without leave.

14 MR. NICE: Your Honour, yes, and I'm very helpfully reminded by

15 Ms. Wee that, of course, a considerable amount of 66(A)(ii) disclosure

16 relates to sensitive sources, and we can't disclose that until shortly

17 before the sensitive source comes and there can be no doubt, in light of

18 the overall experience of what's happened to witnesses, that respect for

19 sensitive sources is appropriate.

20 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Milosevic, no. We're going to have to adjourn

21 now. We have to attend to different matters.

22 Mr. Kay, was there something you wanted to add, but very briefly?

23 MR. KAY: It's just this in relation to the materials: There are

24 CD-ROMs and videos of which there are a great number, and it's impossible

25 even to count them because they fill walls, cupboards, and they contain

Page 18508

1 pages after pages.

2 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Well, we'll have to look at that. We'll return

3 to this topic -- Mr. Milosevic, we've ruled on your release. We've ruled

4 -- just listen for a moment.

5 We have ruled on your release previously. We have ruled against

6 you. You have heard that. But we'll consider your complaint about the

7 amount of material which has been served on you when we have more details

8 from the Prosecution.

9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May, will you please place on

10 the ELMO this table given by the opposing side for you to see it. Because

11 they give you partial tables. Put their table on the ELMO, please.

12 JUDGE MAY: We have it --

13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] This is theirs.

14 JUDGE MAY: And we will be looking at it and we will return to

15 this topic. We will adjourn now. Nine o'clock tomorrow morning.

16 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.53 p.m.,

17 to be reconvened on Thursday, the 3rd day of April,

18 2003, at 9.00 a.m.