Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 18711

1 Tuesday, 8 April 2003

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 9.17 a.m.

5 JUDGE MAY: I observe that we are more than a quarter of an hour

6 late in sitting. The reason is the delays in bringing the accused to this

7 court. This is not a matter which can simply be overlooked if it's going

8 to happen day after day. It's not simply a matter of inconvenience to the

9 Court, it's a matter in which time is wasted, public and international

10 time and money is wasted. We shall raise this with the Registry and any

11 other appropriate authority to get the matter sorted out. We will sit

12 again until 2.00 in order to catch up. But this can't go on as a normal

13 response day-in day-out; it will inconvenience other trials. So the

14 matter must be resolved.

15 Yes. Yes, Mr. Milosevic. Yes.

16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] It's inconvenient for me too because

17 I have to wait from 8.15 onwards, and the reasons aren't linked to

18 anything that I can do. They're out of my -- it's out of my hands.

19 JUDGE MAY: We know that. We'll take it up with the authorities.

20 Yes, Mr. Groome.

21 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, the Prosecution's next witness is

22 Witness B-1486, via videolink.

23 Your Honour, just on a scheduling matter, I will go into the

24 details of this later on, but there's a scheduling change. Witness 1633,

25 who is in The Hague, for reasons I will explain later is -- will not be

Page 18712

1 testifying tomorrow as scheduled. The Prosecution is proposing to advance

2 Thursday's witness, 1493, until -- to tomorrow and then schedule Morten

3 Torkildsen on Thursday.

4 JUDGE MAY: No doubt you could explain why in due course.

5 Yes. Can the registrar come up for a moment.

6 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

7 JUDGE MAY: Yes.

8 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, I'd ask that a pseudonym sheet be placed

9 on the overhead projector, and I'd ask that it be displayed in such a way

10 that only the witness via videolink can see it.

11 WITNESS: WITNESS B-1486

12 [Witness testified via videolink]

13 [Witness answered through interpreter]

14 MR. GROOME: B-1486, I'd ask you to take a look --

15 JUDGE MAY: Yes. He's to take the declaration first. Let the

16 witness take the declaration.

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

18 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

19 JUDGE MAY: Yes. If you'd like to sit down again.

20 Yes, Mr. Groome.

21 [Private session]

22 [redacted]

23 [redacted]

24 [redacted]

25 [redacted]

Page 18713

1 [redacted]

2 [redacted]

3 [redacted]

4 [redacted]

5 [redacted]

6 [redacted]

7 [Open session]

8 MR. GROOME:

9 Q. Sir, I'd ask you to briefly describe your background.

10 A. I was born in Janja. I graduated from university. Up until the

11 beginning of the war in 1992, I worked in my own profession. I grew up in

12 Janja and spent the whole of my life from birth to September 1994 -- 17th

13 of September, 1994 in Janja.

14 Q. What is your ethnic background?

15 A. My ethnic background is Muslim. I am a Bosniak.

16 Q. And what is the ethnicity or ethnic make-up of Janja?

17 A. Janja was inhabited by the Muslim population. 99 per cent of the

18 inhabitants were Muslim, in fact.

19 Q. And can you describe for the Chamber, where is Janja with respect

20 to the town of Bijeljina?

21 A. Janja is situated 11 kilometres upstream of the Drina River, in

22 comparison to Bijeljina, in relation to Bijeljina.

23 Q. Now, I want to draw your attention to February of 1992. At that

24 period of time, did you hear reports about armed forces gathering in the

25 vicinity of Bijeljina?

Page 18714

1 A. Yes, we did hear about the gathering of armed forces, but they

2 were paramilitary armed forces under the leadership of Arkan.

3 Q. And to your knowledge, where were they gathering? What are the

4 names of the locations?

5 A. They were gathering in villages around Bijeljina on the territory

6 of Bosnia-Herzegovina and also on the territory of Serbia.

7 Q. Can you name any of the villages --

8 A. The places --

9 Q. Please continue.

10 A. It was the village of Badovinci, which is located in Serbia, and

11 the village of Popovi, which is in fact in Bosnia-Herzegovina.

12 Q. And can you tell us with as much precision as you can, when did

13 you first hear reports that Arkan and his men were in these locations?

14 A. At the end of February and the beginning of March 1992.

15 Q. I want to now draw your attention to the beginning of April. Did

16 there come a time when you yourself heard artillery and gunfire?

17 A. Where we were, we weren't subjected to direct fire or artillery

18 shooting.

19 Q. Could you hear any such fire?

20 A. Yes, we could hear it, but it came from Bijeljina.

21 Q. With as much precision as you're able, when did you hear this

22 gunfire?

23 A. It was on the 2nd or 3rd of April, 1992, during the Muslim holiday

24 of Bajram.

25 Q. What did you do in response to hearing this gunfire?

Page 18715

1 A. We were in the place we lived in, and we didn't react at all at

2 that time.

3 Q. Did some of your neighbours go into or attempt to go into the town

4 of Bijeljina?

5 A. No, they did not, nor did they go, because the telephone lines

6 were still working, and we were in contact with our relatives in Bijeljina

7 and they gave us some information as to what was going on there.

8 Q. From Janja, did you hear reports about tanks being on the road

9 between Bijeljina and Janja?

10 A. Yes, we did hear about that, and we were able to see some of the

11 tanks in the suburbs, in the periphery between Janja and the first village

12 bordering on Janja.

13 Q. How many tanks were you able yourself to personally see?

14 A. As it's flat land all around the periphery of Janja, we were only

15 able to see three tanks.

16 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Could you, Mr. Groome, tell the witness not to

17 refer to "we." He's giving evidence about what he saw or heard, and it's

18 very confusing if he talks about "we saw tanks" and all the rest of it.

19 Just keep him, if you would, at what he saw and did.

20 MR. GROOME: Yes, Your Honour.

21 Q. B-1486, I want to draw your attention to a few days after that.

22 Did you yourself see anybody come to Janja and address people of Janja?

23 A. When Bijeljina was occupied by Arkan and his paramilitary units,

24 Arkan came to Janja with his escort and addressed the citizens of Janja.

25 Q. And were you yourself present for -- for that address?

Page 18716

1 A. Yes, I was. I was among the inhabitants present when Arkan

2 personally addressed the citizens of Janja.

3 Q. Did the entire population of Janja appear for that address?

4 A. There was a large mass of inhabitants. I can't give you an exact

5 percentage as to how many people rallied in the centre of Janja on the

6 occasion.

7 Q. Can you summarise for the Court what it was that Arkan said to the

8 crowd?

9 A. Arkan said that he demanded that the population hand over their

10 weapons, including hunting rifles and any weapons they had, and that he

11 would guarantee the security of the population, that nothing would happen

12 to them.

13 Q. Did the people of Janja comply with that direction?

14 A. The people of Janja did comply with that demand and handed over

15 all the weapons they had with them.

16 Q. Did people of -- or did anybody in Janja offer any resistance to

17 Arkan on that day?

18 A. During that entire day and later on, until the population of Janja

19 was actually forced out of their homes, not a single bullet was fired by

20 the Muslim inhabitants in Janja.

21 Q. At that point in time, were there any soldiers from the Yugoslav

22 People's Army present in Janja?

23 A. His -- Arkan's escorts came along with Arkan, but at the time

24 there were no soldiers belonging to the Yugoslav People's Army in Janja.

25 Q. To get to Janja, would Arkan have had to have travelled the same

Page 18717

1 road upon which you saw three JNA tanks?

2 A. Arkan took the asphalt road between Bijeljina and Janja, and I saw

3 three tanks on our own fields, our agricultural land.

4 Q. Would he have passed within sight of those tanks?

5 A. He must have seen the tanks because those tanks were deployed on a

6 piece of land which belonged to the agricultural concern in the village of

7 Kojcinovac.

8 Q. Can you describe for the Chamber how your life, your situation,

9 was affected by Arkan's entry into Janja and the municipality of

10 Bijeljina.

11 A. After handing over all the weapons by the Muslim population, the

12 police changed their insignia. Arkan, at the time, told the inhabitants

13 that as of that moment, pound authority in the Bijeljina municipality was

14 in the hands of the so-called Serbian authorities.

15 Q. Did there come a time when you lost some of your personal property

16 as a result of the takeover of Janja?

17 A. Curfew, as it was called, was introduced. All the telephone lines

18 were cut so that we were not able to communicate with Bijeljina or further

19 afield in the world. Our movements were restricted so that the

20 inhabitants weren't able to leave Janja, going off in any direction,

21 taking any of the roads out.

22 Q. And did you have any property taken from you?

23 A. Yes, I did. Gradually. It was gradually taken away, and finally,

24 all my property was confiscated in September 1994.

25 Q. Are you personally aware of mosques in Janja that were destroyed

Page 18718

1 in March of 1993?

2 A. Yes, I am aware of that. Both the mosques were destroyed, the

3 mosques which had existed in Janja up until then. They were first set

4 fire to, and then later on they were mined.

5 Q. How many mosques in Janja were destroyed?

6 A. Two mosques were destroyed in Janja.

7 Q. Were you personally aware of other mosques in the town of

8 Bijeljina that were destroyed after April of 1992?

9 A. In Bijeljina, all five mosques which had existed up until then

10 were destroyed, and they were all in working order.

11 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, at this time I'd like to play an excerpt

12 from a -- a news report which shows some of the destruction of mosques.

13 There's also a portion at the end of the clip which is related to

14 deportation. The clip is only -- it's less than seven minutes long. It

15 may take longer than that to cue it. So with the Court's indulgence, I

16 may just start the clip now for the mosques and let it run through till

17 the end.

18 JUDGE MAY: Yes, sounds sensible.

19 [Videotape played]

20 [redacted]

21 [redacted]

22 [redacted]

23 [redacted]

24 [redacted]

25 [redacted]

Page 18719

1 [redacted]

2 [redacted]

3 [redacted]

4 [redacted]

5 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, obviously there was a technical problem.

6 I would note, for the record, that it seems to be a current piece

7 of news that was inserted into our transcript, beginning at 9.36.52, [redacted]

8 [redacted]. So I'd ask that be removed from the record. The tape is being

9 re-cued now.

10 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Well, we note what you said.

11 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, there seems to be some technical

12 problem. If perhaps we skip it. Perhaps in redirect examination we could

13 correct this problem and, with the leave of the Court, show it then.

14 JUDGE MAY: Have you very much more in direct?

15 MR. GROOME: No, I don't, Your Honour.

16 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Well, rather than waste time, what we'll do is

17 we will deal with the evidence, we'll have cross-examination. If this is

18 working by the end of your direct examination, we'll hear it. If not,

19 we'll come back to it at the end. Of course the accused will have the

20 opportunity of cross-examining on it.

21 Yes.

22 MR. KAY: If I can just raise a matter. Your Honour, I was

23 waiting to see what happened with the exhibits this morning. I notice

24 that in tab 4 we've got a video clip with commentary, obviously by a

25 journalist, Channel Four News, with a description of events which it seems

Page 18720

1 the Prosecution is intending to put in as part of the video evidence

2 rather than the pictures themselves. In my submission, it should be the

3 pictures themselves that go in in evidence rather than what the journalist

4 says.

5 JUDGE MAY: But how are we to know what the pictures mean unless

6 we have the commentary?

7 MR. KAY: That can be done by Prosecution counsel's description.

8 There's a witness called Ridelmayer, who is a cultural --

9 JUDGE MAY: Yes. But we're dealing at the moment with specific

10 mosques. He's going to deal at some stage, later on, he's going to deal

11 with a number of mosques.

12 MR. KAY: He identifies these mosques as well in his report.

13 JUDGE MAY: What is objectionable about this particular

14 commentary?

15 MR. KAY: Well, it's the fundamental point that the journalist who

16 is making the commentary isn't a witness in the case and isn't here to be

17 questioned.

18 JUDGE MAY: But what is he saying which you object to?

19 MR. KAY: Well, if we look at the second line, "upheaval caused by

20 the Serbian campaign of ethnic cleansing in Eastern Bosnia." This isn't a

21 description of the geographical places, the locations, that kind of

22 information. This is commentary on the events that this Trial Chamber is

23 dealing with. It's as if the journalist is giving evidence to this Trial

24 Chamber in a remote way and giving his opinions. It's just dangerous

25 evidence, in our submission, to come in in this form.

Page 18721

1 [Trial Chamber confers]

2 JUDGE MAY: Yes. One suggestion, of course, is that what we

3 simply do is play it because that will tell us what it is and we ignore

4 his comments. Because they're those, as you rightly say, those of a

5 journalist. He's not a witness. He can't be cross-examined. But when

6 he's describing, "This is Bijeljina and this is the mosque," well,

7 presumably that's not going to be objectionable.

8 MR. KAY: That's not objectionable. All I do is point out that if

9 the sound is taken out, there is sufficient linkage evidence to inform the

10 Trial Chamber where these places are in the Ridelmayer report.

11 JUDGE MAY: Yes. The difficulty is to combine the two. I mean,

12 of course you may have it in front of you, but for those of us who don't,

13 and the fact that it's not going to be given at the same time, and the

14 fact that there's so much evidence in this case, I think would make it

15 convenient probably to play it. But of course we'll hear and consider it.

16 Mr. Groome.

17 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, may I proceed with the next set of

18 questions or argument on this point?

19 JUDGE MAY: I think we'd better hear some -- what would you say

20 about that?

21 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, the Prosecution certainly isn't offering

22 the commentary for the truth of what the commentator is saying but simply

23 to assist the Chamber. I think it is also worth noting that the

24 destruction of the mosque in Bijeljina was something that received quite a

25 bit of media coverage, which may be important for the Chamber to consider,

Page 18722

1 just the fact that there was media coverage, when considering whether the

2 accused had notice of the events of this nature in Bijeljina.

3 But I agree with Mr. Kay, and the Prosecution is not advancing

4 this evidence for the truth of what the commentator is saying about

5 Bijeljina.

6 MR. KAY: A solution may be just to remove tab 4, because you'll

7 have the transcript of the proceedings which advise the Trial Chamber what

8 this particular passage of evidence relates to. But the transcript of it

9 has been included as an exhibit at the moment.

10 [Trial Chamber confers]

11 JUDGE MAY: Yes. That seems to be a sensible compromise. We'll

12 remove tab 4 but we will allow the commentary played. Of course the

13 comments of the journalist, as throughout, are not admissible as to the

14 truth of it, but it will inform us, of course, what we're actually looking

15 at, and we need that. So we'll remove tab 4 but we'll allow the

16 commentary.

17 MR. GROOME:

18 Q. B-1486, I would ask you to look at your monitor. It is

19 Prosecution Exhibit --

20 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, if we might have a number for exhibits

21 with this witness.

22 JUDGE MAY: Yes, that bundle.

23 THE REGISTRAR: P420.

24 MR. GROOME: I believe we used 420 yesterday. 21? I believe

25 there were a couple of pseudonym sheets also marked.

Page 18723

1 By our records, it's 423 -- 423 is the next number.

2 JUDGE MAY: Yes, 423.

3 MR. GROOME: I'm sorry, Your Honour. Correction. Our records are

4 showing 422 would be the next number.

5 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

6 THE REGISTRAR: So the pseudonym sheet will be 422, and then the

7 binder for this witness will be P423. Thank you.

8 MR. GROOME:

9 Q. B-1486, I'd ask you to take a look at Prosecution Exhibit 423, tab

10 1. It is a series of two photographs. Can you please tell us whether you

11 recognise what's depicted in these photographs.

12 A. This is the mosque which used to stand in the centre of Janja and

13 which was destroyed in 1993.

14 Q. The picture on the bottom half of the page, does that indicate the

15 location as it appears today?

16 A. Today a new mosque is under construction and construction is

17 almost complete, so that today there is a newly constructed mosque here,

18 as of today.

19 Q. I'd ask you to take a look at the next set of photographs. It's

20 Prosecution Exhibit 423, tab 2. Do you recognise what's depicted in these

21 photographs?

22 A. Yes. This is another mosque in Janja. It is about 500 metres

23 upstream from the mosque we have just seen. This mosque, too, was

24 destroyed in 1993. The bottom photograph shows the present-day situation.

25 Q. I'd ask you now to take a look at Prosecution Exhibit 423, tab 3.

Page 18724

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

Page 18725

1 Do you recognise what's depicted in this -- in these two photographs?

2 A. This is a mosque that used to stand in Bijeljina between the youth

3 centre and the court. This mosque was also destroyed in 1993. On this

4 spot today there is a clear space which is fenced in.

5 Q. I'd like to now draw your attention to March of 1993. Did there

6 come a time when local Muslim men were being coerced into joining the Army

7 of the Republika Srpska?

8 A. It is correct. They were coerced, especially employees working in

9 companies. They were given two options: Either they should accept a

10 military assignment and go to the front line in order to keep their jobs,

11 or they could give up their jobs if they did not want to accept a military

12 assignment.

13 Q. Were there schools available for the children of Muslim occupants

14 of Janja?

15 A. Schools were available, but the curriculum was the curriculum of

16 the then-Yugoslavia, that is, Serbia.

17 Q. Did there come a time when you yourself had to leave Janja?

18 A. Yes. At one point in time, under psychological pressure, all the

19 inhabitants of Janja had to leave. Before this, they were robbed by

20 military conscripts belonging to the Serbian army and the Serbian police.

21 Q. Can you give us an approximate time of when you left Janja.

22 A. In mid-September 1994.

23 Q. Can you please describe the circumstances under which you left.

24 A. Everything was taken from us, from agricultural machinery and

25 livestock to houses. Practically everything we owned was first taken from

Page 18726

1 us. And then we were forced to abandon our property. We could no longer

2 dispose of it.

3 Q. What happened to your house?

4 A. My house was confiscated by -- by a policeman who was a member of

5 the special police.

6 Q. Do you know a person by the name of Vojkan?

7 A. Yes. He was a well-known person, and he organised the removal of

8 the population of Janja.

9 Q. Was he involved on the day that you left Janja?

10 A. Yes. Yes. He organised convoys, or rather, he organised

11 transportation as far as a place called Ban Brdo. But afterwards, he also

12 organised the confiscation of all our valuables; gold jewellery, money,

13 anything of value.

14 Q. Sir, my last questions to you will be after I ask you to view a

15 videotape. I'm going to play that videotape for you now, and I will ask

16 you my questions when it concludes.

17 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, I believe that it is technically

18 possible now.

19 Apparently it is, Your Honour.

20 I would ask that we revert to the original plan, with the

21 possibility of, on re-examination, showing the video.

22 I have no further questions of this witness at this time.

23 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Milosevic.

24 Cross-examined by Mr. Milosevic:

25 Q. [Interpretation] According to what you say and according to the

Page 18727

1 information here, Janja was almost a purely Muslim village; is that

2 correct?

3 A. Yes, that's correct.

4 Q. According to the census of 1991, there were 10.029 Muslims, 217

5 Serbs, 17 Croats, 179 Yugoslavs, and 123 others. So one could say that 97

6 or 98 per cent of the village was Muslim.

7 A. That's correct.

8 JUDGE MAY: Just a moment. I don't know why this is being shown.

9 All right.

10 Yes. Go on. Go on, Mr. Milosevic.

11 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

12 Q. Is it correct, Mr. 1486, that at the time of these conflicts in

13 late March or early April, as you said, the 2nd or 3rd of April, in that

14 period you held a leading position in a company in Belgrade?

15 A. That's not correct.

16 Q. Were you employed in Belgrade?

17 A. That's not correct.

18 Q. So it's not correct you were employed in Belgrade?

19 A. No, it's not.

20 Q. I have to take a look. You say on page 3 here of your statement,

21 it says in paragraph 2, in the second sentence of paragraph 2: "As I

22 worked in Belgrade, from that moment it became a foreign country. I could

23 not travel there. So after about two months, I was fired from my work."

24 I won't mention the name of the company in order to avoid identifying you.

25 So were you or were you not employed in Belgrade? This is what it says in

Page 18728

1 your statement.

2 A. I happened to be in Janja on Bajram when the conflict in Bijeljina

3 broke out.

4 Q. Mr. 1486, I didn't ask you where you happened to be at that

5 moment. What I asked you was: Did you have a job in Belgrade? Is this

6 correct? Were you or were you not employed in Belgrade?

7 A. Yes, I was employed in Belgrade.

8 Q. Until when did you work in Belgrade?

9 A. Until the outbreak of the conflict in Bijeljina.

10 Q. So when the conflict broke out, you stopped going to work in

11 Belgrade; is that correct?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. And how long had you been employed in Belgrade at that point?

14 A. Eight years.

15 Q. A full eight years?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. In view of your year of birth and so on, you worked in Belgrade as

18 a young man. Did you have any problems in Belgrade because you were a

19 Muslim?

20 A. Not until that point in time.

21 Q. Not until then. But after that, you didn't even go to Belgrade;

22 isn't that correct?

23 A. Yes, that's correct.

24 Q. So in all your experience, did you ever experience any problems in

25 Serbia as a Muslim?

Page 18729

1 A. No.

2 Q. Do you know that many refugees, including over 70.000 Muslims,

3 fled to Serbia?

4 A. I'm not aware of this.

5 Q. But you are aware of the fact that many refugees fled to Serbia.

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Thank you. You say that some sort of paramilitary units arrived

8 in late February, early March. My information, collected by my

9 associates, says that the events you speak of happened in the night of the

10 31st of March and on the 1st, 2nd, and 3rd of April. Is this correct or

11 not?

12 A. It's correct as far as Bijeljina is concerned.

13 Q. Do you know how these conflicts started?

14 A. I was not at all interested in politics at the time, so I don't

15 know how the conflicts started.

16 Q. Do you know anything about the blockade of Bijeljina carried out

17 by the Green Berets and the Patriotic League, that is, Muslim extremists,

18 just before the conflict broke out? Do you know anything about this?

19 A. No. All I know is that Arkan caused the conflicts in Bijeljina.

20 Q. Do you know that, at the invitation of local leadership, he

21 arrived only after the blockade had been set up?

22 A. No. If there were legal authorities there, why would they call on

23 him with his paramilitary units which were illegal?

24 Q. Well, you'd probably have to ask them and not me. But this is a

25 fact I'm putting forward.

Page 18730

1 JUDGE MAY: No good asking this witness about it. He's not from

2 -- he's not from Bijeljina, he's not interested in politics, this is yet

3 another semantic debate. So let's move on. Ask him about Janja. He

4 knows about that.

5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May, I know what I have to ask

6 him about.

7 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. 1486, you say that Janja was

8 under a blockade. Did you personally see some sort of blockade of Janja?

9 A. During two or three days on the Bijeljina side, I saw personally

10 three tanks with their barrels pointing towards Janja. This was the

11 period when the population of Janja could not leave Janja in any

12 direction.

13 Q. According to information I have, no inhabitant of Janja or

14 Bijeljina was ever prohibited from leaving that area, nor were any permits

15 necessary for this. Is this correct or not?

16 A. Permits were needed by all able-bodied male citizens of Janja who

17 had to go to Bijeljina.

18 Q. Very well, Mr. 1486. You have just said that there was no

19 activity by the JNA and that the JNA did not participate in these events.

20 Is this correct?

21 A. Yes, that's correct.

22 Q. How can you say, then, that the JNA blockaded you when you saw,

23 which I doubt, three tanks on a farm near Janja? There were soldiers all

24 over Yugoslavia, on the entire territory.

25 A. That's correct. But who was it who had tanks in that period?

Page 18731

1 Q. Well, the JNA certainly had to have tanks in that period. And in

2 that period, as you know, the JNA was on its own territory, the territory

3 of Yugoslavia. Many units of the JNA were deployed all over Yugoslavia,

4 but they did not take action against anyone. In the events that you speak

5 of, did the JNA do anything at all that could be described as violent?

6 A. Mr. Milosevic, on that day Bosnia was already recognised, and you

7 speak of the presence of units of the JNA which then had tanks. How could

8 the JNA be on that territory?

9 Q. Mr. 1486, you know that, unfortunately, tragically, Bosnia was

10 recognised prematurely on the 16th of April, the date that Hitler bombed

11 Yugoslavia in 1941.

12 JUDGE MAY: We're certainly getting a very long way from the

13 evidence. Now, come back to Janja or we'll stop.

14 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

15 Q. Have we cleared this up? Was Janja blocked or not?

16 A. Yes, it was, for two days, two or three days, because the

17 population could not go anywhere. They could not leave Janja at all.

18 Q. Was Janja surrounded by JNA tanks?

19 A. I saw only three tanks on one side.

20 Q. So it was not encircled. What, then, did this blockade consist

21 in, that you speak of?

22 A. Limited movement of the population.

23 Q. And who limited your movement? It had to be some forces that

24 limited your movement. Someone had to have ordered you not to move

25 around. Who was it who limited your movement? Who was present in Janja

Page 18732

1 to limit your movement?

2 A. There was a checkpoint on the road leading from Janja to Bijeljina

3 and another one leading to Zvornik.

4 Q. And who manned these checkpoints?

5 A. Some sort of forces, but I can't tell you exactly who they were

6 because I didn't even attempt to go to those places, to see who these

7 people were.

8 Q. You said that Arkan came to Janja and called on the people to hand

9 over their weapons; is that correct?

10 A. Yes, it is.

11 Q. Do you remember - at least, that's what my information says - that

12 he was accompanied by the deputy commander of the traffic police who was

13 an inhabitant of Janja, Mehmed Gruhonjic. Do you remember this?

14 A. This was ten years ago, so I couldn't give you a precise answer

15 now.

16 Q. Do you remember that there were only a few of them, only a few men

17 accompanying him, that there was no unit there, that there had been no

18 fighting?

19 A. There were four or five men escorting him, escorting Arkan.

20 Q. Very well. Four or five men? And according to you and as my

21 information says, he made a speech, he stayed about a quarter of an hour,

22 and then he left. Is that correct?

23 A. Yes, it is.

24 Q. Is it correct, I have noted down that you said that not a single

25 bullet was fired by the Muslims. That's what you said, didn't you,

Page 18733

1 Mr. 1486?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Was a single bullet fired by the Serbs?

4 A. Not in that period, not on the Muslims.

5 Q. So not a single bullet was fired by anyone; is that correct?

6 A. Yes. But later on there were problems. So this refers only to

7 that period.

8 Q. So when was this later, as you say?

9 A. The problems started in late 1992 and continued.

10 Q. So the problems started in late 1992?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Well, let's clarify this. Did someone shoot at somebody? Did

13 someone fire on someone? Was someone killed in Janja?

14 A. Yes, there were such cases.

15 Q. Let's be very precise about this and clarify it fully because my

16 information says the opposite, that nobody was killed in Janja. And

17 secondly, is it correct that the problems started only when refugees began

18 to arrive in Janja from various places from which Serbs were fleeing under

19 pressure from Muslim forces and the crimes committed there? Is this

20 correct or not?

21 A. It's correct that problems were caused by Serbs arriving in Janja

22 and taking over our housing and taking our property.

23 Q. Well, Mr. 1486, is it correct that problems were not caused by the

24 citizens of the neighbouring villages or your fellow villagers of --

25 people from Bijeljina but refugees fleeing from places where they had been

Page 18734

1 under threat?

2 A. That's correct. Most of the problems were caused by people

3 arriving in Janja and settling there.

4 Q. I assume that your neighbours and the citizens of Bijeljina had no

5 need to move into your houses because they were already living there.

6 A. That's correct.

7 Q. So these had to be people arriving from other areas from which

8 they had been expelled.

9 A. That's correct.

10 Q. Well, if that's correct, is it also correct that this huge mass of

11 refugees inevitably produced a situation which was suitable or conducive

12 to various sorts of criminal actions under such circumstances?

13 A. That's correct. These problems --

14 Q. Give me a specific example. You say that a policeman confiscated

15 your house. Where did this policeman come from? Was he from Bijeljina?

16 Was he from your neighbourhood? Or did he arrive from somewhere else?

17 A. He arrived from somewhere else.

18 Q. Where did he come from?

19 A. From Central Bosnia.

20 Q. So from Central Bosnia.

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. So he was a refugee.

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. I just wanted to clarify that what was happening was a result of a

25 large wave of refugees and of events that occurred at that time. Tell me,

Page 18735

1 then, you said that some people had to go to the army in order not to lose

2 their jobs. According to my information, regardless of whether they were

3 Serbs or Muslims, according to a decision issued by the authorities, every

4 citizen had a choice: Either they could join the army or they could

5 accept a work assignment, which meant that he would have to work for a

6 certain number of hours. And this applied to both Serbs and Muslims. Are

7 you aware of this, Mr. 1486?

8 A. Yes, I'm fully aware of it.

9 Q. So there was no discrimination in this respect between Serbs and

10 Muslims; isn't that correct, Mr. 1486?

11 A. Yes. But many Serbs did join the army.

12 Q. But they also had a choice and many decided not to go into the

13 army but, rather, to accept a work assignment, and everyone followed his

14 own decision; isn't that correct, Mr. 1486?

15 A. Yes, it is.

16 Q. Thank you very much. Let's proceed. Let's move on. In relation

17 to these events, is it correct that there were various barricades in

18 Bijeljina and the surrounding villages throughout this area and that they

19 were set up by both Serbs and Muslims who were afraid of each other?

20 A. I have no information as to what was going on outside Janja.

21 Q. Very well. But the conflict between the Serbs and the

22 neighbouring villages and the inhabitants of Janja, there was never any

23 such conflict; isn't that correct?

24 A. That's correct. There never was such a conflict.

25 Q. So your answer is yes, there was never any conflict between the

Page 18736

1 Serbs in the surrounding villages and the Muslims in Janja.

2 A. Yes, that is correct.

3 Q. Is it correct that Janja was entirely surrounded by Serbian

4 villages?

5 A. Yes, that is also correct.

6 Q. And there was a conflict between the Muslims in Janja and the

7 inhabitants of the surrounding villages.

8 A. No, there never was.

9 Q. So the only problem you ever had was the problem with this wave of

10 refugees, when speaking of the kind of people who caused problems for you?

11 A. Yes, that's correct.

12 Q. I'm going to skip a number of questions that I have here because

13 your testimony is being limited to Janja.

14 You spoke about the mosques.

15 A. Correct.

16 Q. According to my information, of the three mosques, two were

17 destroyed.

18 A. The third mosque that you mention was under construction, and that

19 third mosque was not destroyed.

20 Q. All right. So of the three, two were destroyed. And that was

21 also done by those people who came into the area, refugees, for some sort

22 of revenge or retaliation because they were bitter about something. I

23 can't go into their reasons. But without a doubt, it wasn't done by the

24 authorities or the inhabitants of the surrounding villages around Janja;

25 isn't that correct?

Page 18737

1 A. The destruction of the mosques was carried out at night when the

2 curfew was in force. Now, who destroyed the mosques, I really wouldn't

3 venture to say at this point, whether it was the refugees or the locals.

4 So that was actually done by somebody who knew how to do it, because the

5 surrounding houses were not destroyed as well and they were very close to

6 the mosque, so it was done by professionals.

7 Q. All right. But do you happen to know that not only the

8 authorities of Serbia but the authorities of Republika Srpska as well on

9 several occasions publicly condemned the desecration of religious sites,

10 mosques, churches, and the like, and publicly called this serious crimes,

11 said that these things were serious crimes. Do you remember that?

12 A. Well, not much mention was made of that. Perhaps once, quite

13 superficially, just a few words to that effect.

14 Q. Well, how far this was publicised, I don't know. But do you know

15 whether a single mosque was ever destroyed in Serbia?

16 A. Well, I haven't got any information about that at this point in

17 time.

18 Q. You said in your statement - let me just find it - but it's not a

19 long statement, and I'm sure you'll be able to remember this portion of it

20 - that the pound authority was 100 per cent Serb and the people of

21 different ethnic groups were dismissed from their jobs. And you say that

22 doctors had to work, to do menial jobs like cleaning the streets. You

23 said that, didn't you?

24 A. Yes. They had a work assignment which was to clean the streets

25 and parks and see to the area around these streets as well.

Page 18738

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

Page 18739

1 Q. Mr. B-1486, I'm going to read some information out to you and you

2 tell me if it's correct or not. First, none of those doctors were

3 dismissed from their jobs; and second, the work assignment, work

4 obligation, any kind of work assignment, as you know full well, in the

5 former Yugoslavia -- for example, I myself took part in some of them and

6 you probably did too. When a settlement was being put into order, we

7 would all go out and take part in seeing that the settlement and

8 residential area we lived in was nicely kept. It wasn't -- nobody was

9 forced to do so. Directors would do so. Generals would do so.

10 Housewives and children would take part in this general cleaning-up drive

11 in their residential houses and blocks. Is that what you're thinking

12 about? Is that what you have in mind, or do you really mean to say that

13 somebody forced the doctors of Bijeljina to clean the streets?

14 A. This was forced work. The competent authorities forced people to

15 engage in this work assignment.

16 Q. Do you know that the competent authorities were not ethnically

17 purely Serb but the competent authorities had members who were Serbs and

18 Muslims alike? Are you aware of that or not?

19 A. After the events which took place in Bijeljina, there were very

20 few Muslims who stayed on in the authorities.

21 Q. All right. Fine. Now, do you know the enormous number of Muslims

22 who were even in the army of Republika Srpska and were commanding

23 officers, held high-ranking positions in that army, they were also

24 directors and managers too. Are you aware of that? Do you know about

25 that?

Page 18740

1 A. Well, I don't have much information along those lines, but I did

2 hear that in Bijeljina there were certain commanders who assumed command

3 positions in the Army of Republika Srpska.

4 Q. All right. Fine. Now, as you say that some respectable people

5 were dismissed from their jobs and doctors, instead of doing their own

6 work, had to clean the streets, I have here several names. For example,

7 Dr. Nedzad Havic, Dr. Senada Gordic Nakicevic, Dr. Nijara Opalic, Dr.

8 Sureta Kadric, Dr. Tikvesa Amra. Throughout the war, the whole time, they

9 were engaged in their job at the Bijeljina hospital. They did their work

10 there. Are you aware of that? Do you know about that? What did you say?

11 A. The names of those doctors, or rather, lady doctors, are not

12 familiar to me.

13 Q. And are you familiar with this: That throughout the war, Dr.

14 Hasagic worked all the time. He's a well-respected physician and also

15 Muslim.

16 A. Yes, that's true. That's correct.

17 Q. What did you say?

18 A. I said that's true, yes.

19 Q. So nobody dismissed him from his job or made him clean streets.

20 A. Not him, no.

21 Q. And the names I read out to you, you don't know about them, they

22 don't ring a bell?

23 A. No.

24 Q. You mentioned a doctor by the name of Hajrudin Kadric. There was

25 no such doctor in Bijeljina. All the names that I read out who are Muslim

Page 18741

1 and worked throughout the war, you say you don't know those doctors and

2 then you mentioned this Dr. Kadric that doesn't exist. Perhaps there's a

3 person of that name but he never worked at the medical centre in Bijeljina

4 as a doctor. So where did you get that name from? Who told you that?

5 A. It's a well-known doctor, and he used to work in Janja too. Later

6 on, he worked in Bijeljina.

7 Q. Well, what happened to him? Was he dismissed from his job?

8 A. Dismissed, yes.

9 Q. That's what you claim.

10 JUDGE MAY: Now, Mr. Milosevic, you've had rather more than the

11 Prosecution had. Do you want more time with this witness?

12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Of course, yes, Mr. May, I do indeed

13 because it's quite clear here that we have to clear up what the witness

14 has been saying and claiming. As you can see, I'm asking questions and

15 limiting them to Janja.

16 JUDGE MAY: Very well. We'll consider the position. Just one

17 moment.

18 [Trial Chamber confers]

19 JUDGE MAY: Ten minutes more.

20 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, I don't know what I can do in

21 ten minutes, but --

22 JUDGE MAY: You can get on with it and ask some more questions.

23 Yes, let's get on.

24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Ten minutes is much too short,

25 Mr. May.

Page 18742

1 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

2 Q. Mr. B-1486, you're not only talking about Janja, then, when you

3 mention this Dr. Hasagic. You have confirmed that nobody dismissed him

4 from his job, that he continued working, and then you go on to speak about

5 Bijeljina and Hajrudin Kadric and you say that somebody dismissed him from

6 his job there. So you're talking about things that weren't going on in

7 Janja, actually; is that right?

8 A. Yes, that's right.

9 [redacted]

10 [redacted]

11 [redacted]

12 [redacted]

13 [redacted]

14 [redacted]

15 [redacted]

16 [redacted]

17 A. Yes, I do, and they had a work assignment. They had their own

18 work assignment working in their own workplace.

19 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, I'd ask that the last question be

20 redacted. I believe it will provide sufficient information to reveal the

21 identity of the witness.

22 JUDGE MAY: Very well.

23 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

24 Q. All right, then. Now, Bijeljina is the centre here and this won't

25 identify the witness because everybody goes to a department store, what

Page 18743

1 I'm going to ask now. I'm going to give you some names of Muslims who

2 worked in the department store throughout. Halida Alic, Senada Pasalic,

3 Fadila Ramic, Hamdija Racevic [phoen], Dzemila Obradovic, and so on and so

4 forth. Do you know that those people worked throughout that time at the

5 department store; they went on working?

6 A. Up until what date, Mr. Milosevic?

7 Q. Throughout the war, all the time. In 1991 and 1992 and 1993 and

8 1994 and 1995. I don't know; all the time. That's what my information

9 tells me, the whole time. Nobody touched them. Did they have a work

10 assignment to work in the department store?

11 A. Mr. Milosevic, about 200 inhabitants remained in Janja at the end

12 of September 1994 of the more than 10.000 inhabitants that had lived there

13 previously.

14 Q. I'm not asking you that. An enormous number of inhabitants did

15 relocate, fleeing from the war. Serbia had several hundred thousand

16 refugees from all parts, including 70.000 Muslims from Bosnia-Herzegovina

17 itself. So about that population exodus and movement, I'm not asking you

18 about that. And you say that that happened sometime in 1994. So that's

19 not something I'm addressing here. But what I'm asking you is this: Do

20 you know that the PD of Semberija at Novo Selo, near Bijeljina, that a

21 large number of Muslims lived there? Do you know Alija Omerovic? He was

22 captured, for example, by the opposite side and exchanged and is still

23 living and working there. Alija Dragic is another case in point. Zijad

24 Mekic, do you know him? Sead Tikves, another one, head of the vegetable

25 plant branch. He -- this one was slaughtered by the extremists. Muharem

Page 18744

1 Risanovic, Rifet Delic, Sadik Dedic. Do any of those names ring a bell?

2 Neda Pesavic [phoen]? He had a Ph.D. in agriculture and was one of the

3 managers there. Alija Pahatic [phoen]?

4 JUDGE MAY: There's no way the witness can answer all this -- a

5 long list. Now, you can ask -- ask one question and make it simple.

6 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

7 Q. What I'm asking you is, in general terms, do you know anything

8 about these people, the people who worked there and lived there, and who,

9 as you can see, had problems with the other side? Do you know anything

10 about that and about them?

11 A. No, I don't know anything about that and I'm not aware of it.

12 Q. Do you know, for example, that Pasaga Halilovic was the general

13 manager of the company called Duvan?

14 A. Yes, he was. And he was also one of the commanders in the Army of

15 Republika Srpska.

16 Q. Well, do you think he was forced to be the general manager and one

17 of the commanders?

18 A. Well, for him to be a general manager, he would have had to have

19 been in the Army of Republika Srpska as well.

20 Q. Well, he was the general manager there before and now and he was

21 not in the Republika Srpska Army.

22 A. But he was during the war.

23 Q. Well, that bears out what I'm saying. But let's not move on

24 further from here. Tell me this, please, just to clarify one more point:

25 You mentioned a man named Vojkan.

Page 18745

1 A. Right. Correct.

2 Q. And this man was in charge of the exchanges. I'm now going to ask

3 you to give me a very detailed and specific answer as to whether my piece

4 of information on the subject is correct. This is it: According to my

5 piece of information, this is what it was about: It was Vojkan Djurkovic,

6 the man in question - he was a criminal, in fact - from the village of

7 Velino Selo, near Bijeljina. And according to my data, he went about

8 looting and took people off, and he was arrested on several occasions

9 because of that and criminal reports were filed against him, charges were

10 brought against him. According to what it says here, my information, he

11 would represent himself falsely as being a member of some kind of exchange

12 commission, which wasn't true. There was a regular exchange commission in

13 Bijeljina at that time, and the head of that commission was Major Ljubo

14 Mitrovic, whereas this other one, the one you mention --

15 JUDGE MAY: That's enough for the witness -- for the witness to be

16 able to answer.

17 B-1486, can you help as to this Vojkan? What's suggested is that

18 he was a criminal and he went around looting and representing himself as a

19 member of the exchange commission. Can you help as to whether that's

20 right or not?

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I personally know that Vojkan

22 organised convoys for the population to leave Janja and go to Tuzla, for

23 their displacement from Janja to Tuzla.

24 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

25 Q. All right. What about this other piece of information that I have

Page 18746

1 received and people guarantee that this is true: Do you know that in

2 respect of the exchanges, Major Ljubo Mitrovic was in charge in Janja

3 throughout the whole time? He was the official commission. No Vojkan

4 existed in any position of authority.

5 A. The population of Janja didn't go up for an exchange. It

6 undertook to leave the area.

7 Q. Who forced you to leave?

8 A. Before Janja -- before the exodus of Janja took place, there was a

9 number of cases during the night when the population of Janja were taken

10 off, their houses stormed, and the inhabitants taken off during the

11 night. Whole families, in fact, would be taken away. And then this was a

12 way of intimidating the population and instilling fear.

13 Q. Well, yes, fear was quite certainly a motive for leaving areas;

14 fear of war and war operations, fear of criminals, refugees, and so on.

15 Fear is always a motive, but that is the case with all refugees,

16 regardless of their ethnic group; isn't that so, Mr. B-1486?

17 A. Yes, that is true, but you must understand one thing: There were

18 no war operations in Janja, and everything was taken away from us and we

19 had no means of livelihood after that.

20 Q. Did anybody force you to leave Janja? Did anybody read out an

21 order of any kind to you which said you, the Muslims -- this is a Muslim

22 village, as we have established. 99 per cent of it were Muslims. Did

23 anybody say you now have to leave your village and go? Did any person in

24 authority ever take any measures to force you to leave Janja? Did you

25 have to leave Janja under duress?

Page 18747

1 Q. Nobody coerced us in any way, but the population of Janja had had

2 all their property taken away from them and so they had to leave because

3 of the psychological pressure exerted upon them. They had to leave their

4 place of residence.

5 Q. All right. They left their town because of the psychological

6 pressure. Now, what was the pressure that made them leave their homes,

7 those who fled from Central Bosnia to take up residence in Janja? Did

8 they leave because of similar pressure being exerted upon them? Are you

9 aware of the fact that it was a civil war, in fact, and that everybody

10 suffered, all three ethnic groups, ethnic communities suffered and all the

11 citizens and inhabitants were suffering, regardless of their ethnic

12 affiliation? Are you aware of that?

13 A. I don't know who had to leave, under what kind of pressure, who

14 had to leave their homes and houses, but I know personally why I myself

15 left my home town.

16 Q. All right. You've explained that to us. Now, does the name Ibro

17 Huremovic seem familiar to you, nicknamed Ibrica?

18 A. Yes, I know that name very well.

19 Q. Well, he is said to have made a great contribution to mutual

20 cooperation and trust and confidence. He is a highly respected Muslim.

21 He was highly esteemed, and he made great contributions to avoid all the

22 tensions, or rather, to reduce tensions as far as was possible and to have

23 people live calmly and normally. At least, the Serb side has that to say

24 about him. I don't know whether you share that opinion of him or not.

25 A. Yes, that is quite correct. What you have said is correct.

Page 18748

1 Q. Is he living in Janja today too?

2 A. Yes, he is, he is living in Janja today.

3 Q. And nobody expelled him?

4 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Milosevic, you must now bring your questions to an

5 end. We'll hear one more question.

6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, I'm trying to select one. I

7 did have a large number of questions for this witness, Mr. May. So this

8 is a limiting factor. The other side over there never uses the amount of

9 time that it says it will be using.

10 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

11 Q. All right. Tell me just this, then, please: As we have

12 established what was going on between the Serbs and Muslims, you claim on

13 page 3 of your statement that you were not allowed to travel and that the

14 furthest you could go was to Bijeljina. Did you personally, you yourself,

15 ever have any restrictions in travelling to Bijeljina, in just going to

16 Bijeljina?

17 A. I didn't have any need to travel further than that.

18 Q. What I was asking you was were there any restrictions in you

19 personally travelling? Because you said that in general terms sometimes

20 restrictions were imposed, whereas my information says that there were no

21 restrictions at all. Now, you yourself - you're speaking about yourself

22 personally - did you have any difficulty, any restrictions at all imposed

23 upon you?

24 A. I could travel with special permits or passes issued by the Serb

25 authorities.

Page 18749

1 Q. All right. My information tells me that there were no special

2 permits or passes, that people were allowed to move around freely. Is

3 that correct or not?

4 A. The military department in Bijeljina did issue special passes or

5 permits for the movement of Serbs and Muslims as well.

6 Q. So it was the military department, was it?

7 JUDGE MAY: We have the answer.

8 Yes, Mr. Kay.

9 Questioned by Mr. Kay:

10 Q. Witness, you told us that Arkan addressed the people of Janja.

11 And is it right to say that he told you that there was a new authority in

12 the area?

13 A. Yes. He said that from then on the so-called Serbian authorities

14 would be in charge in Bijeljina.

15 Q. And did he give that a name as being Republika Srpska?

16 A. I don't think he did.

17 Q. From that time, did the police start to wear new insignia on their

18 uniform, showing "Republika Srpska"?

19 A. Two or three days later, the police started wearing the new

20 insignia, which they still wear today.

21 Q. And in that time, did you see soldiers also wearing the insignia

22 of Republika Srpska?

23 A. No, I didn't see soldiers at that time.

24 Q. I'm just -- I'm just looking at your statement here that says,

25 "From time to time, Serb soldiers wearing the insignia of the Army of the

Page 18750

1 Republika Srpska would come to Janja."

2 A. Yes. Yes, that did happen. But starting in June or July 1992,

3 from then on.

4 Q. And when you've referred to the Serbs and the Serb authorities

5 from then on, by that you mean Republika Srpska; is that right?

6 A. In that period the territory bore the correct name of the SAO

7 Semberija and Majevica.

8 MR. KAY: I have no further questions.

9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May.

10 JUDGE MAY: Yes.

11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I was about to put a last question

12 which did not relate to anything to do with the previous question, and

13 it's very brief.

14 JUDGE MAY: No. We gave you ten minutes more. You'd had half an

15 hour. So you had more than -- a third more than the Prosecution. It's

16 more than sufficient.

17 Yes.

18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right.

19 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, the Prosecution is going to withdraw the

20 video and not -- and produce it perhaps with another witness, given the

21 technical problems.

22 JUDGE MAY: Very well.

23 MR. GROOME: But I do have a few questions to ask the witness.

24 JUDGE MAY: Well, if you could do so briefly, and then we should

25 have the adjournment.

Page 18751

1 Re-examined by Mr. Groome:

2 Q. Witness B-1486, Mr. Milosevic has characterised this Vojkan as a

3 well-known criminal who committed many crimes against the population of

4 Janja and Bijeljina. To your knowledge, was there ever any sincere

5 attempt by the local police to impede the activity of Vojkan or to prevent

6 him from committing crimes against the population?

7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Objection, Mr. May.

8 THE INTERPRETER: Mr. Milosevic has not switched on his

9 microphone.

10 JUDGE MAY: We can't hear it because you haven't put your

11 microphone on. If you put it on, we'll listen to it. Yes.

12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I say I have an objection because

13 the question is not well put. I did not say only that he was a criminal,

14 I said that he was a criminal who had been arrested on several occasions

15 by the authorities in Bijeljina. An arrested criminal. That was my

16 question.

17 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Well, the witness can deal with it. What he's

18 asked is: Do you -- perhaps you could deal with this, Witness. You were

19 asked if, to your knowledge, Vojkan was ever arrested or anything of that

20 sort.

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I have no special information about

22 Vojkan. All I know personally is that he organised convoys, provided

23 security for the vehicles, and escorted the population from Janja to Ban

24 Brdo.

25 MR. GROOME:

Page 18752

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

Page 18753

1 Q. Now, Mr. Milosevic asked you whether you were presented with a --

2 a written order or a piece of paper directing you to leave Janja. My

3 question to you is: The population of Janja or the people that you knew

4 in Janja, was part of the property that was taken from them implements and

5 tools and necessary equipment that was essential for them to earn a

6 living, to support themselves in Janja?

7 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters did not hear the reply.

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's correct. All the farm

9 machinery was confiscated. All the housing was confiscated. Everything

10 was taken from the farming population.

11 MR. GROOME:

12 Q. With respect to employment, can you estimate for the Chamber what

13 population -- or what was the impact of the events of April 1992 on the

14 ability of Muslim men and women to have -- to gain employment in Janja at

15 that time?

16 A. A small part of the population in Janja held jobs. This was an

17 agricultural area. Most of the people worked in towns, in Bijeljina or

18 outside Bijeljina. And of course because their movements were restricted

19 in this period and also because they were afraid to go to other towns, the

20 population lost their jobs.

21 Q. You agreed with the statement by Mr. Milosevic that many of the

22 crimes committed against the Muslim population of Janja were in fact

23 committed by an influx of Serb refugees into the area. My question to you

24 is: Do you have any personal knowledge or were you aware of any attempts

25 by the local police to protect the property interest of local Muslims who

Page 18754

1 remained after the takeover?

2 A. In that period, the police did practically nothing to protect the

3 local Muslim population.

4 Q. Sir, my final question to you is: You said that the population of

5 Janja -- or I think your exact phrase was the inhabitants of Janja was

6 reduced from 10.000 to 200, but you did not specify the ethnicity. Can

7 you tell us, what ethnicity were you referring to for this group of 9.800

8 people that left Janja?

9 A. From late September 1994 until the end of war operations, about

10 200 Muslims remained in Janja.

11 Q. And that's out of the original population of 10.000; is that

12 correct?

13 A. That's correct.

14 Q. Thank you.

15 MR. GROOME: I have no further questions, Your Honour.

16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I have a question in connection with

17 this question.

18 JUDGE MAY: No. You've -- you've had your chance to

19 cross-examine. In fact, the witness gave that evidence rather earlier.

20 Witness -- no, we can't go on with constant re-examination --

21 further cross-examination.

22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Doesn't it seem to you, Mr. May,

23 that the witness should answer the question of what happened with those

24 9.000 after the war; did they go back to Janja, were they killed

25 somewhere? What happened to them after Dayton? What happened to those

Page 18755

1 9.000?

2 JUDGE MAY: You can ask the witness that. Let us ask the witness.

3 I will ask him.

4 Questioned by the Court:

5 JUDGE MAY: You were asked about the 9.000. You heard what

6 Mr. Milosevic said, Witness B-1486. Can you deal with what happened to

7 the 9.000 of the population?

8 A. About 4.000 in 1994 were practically moved to Tuzla and the

9 surrounding area. Over 1.000 inhabitants remained in Majevica in camps

10 and -- performing work obligation. And the remainder, through various

11 channels, went to other countries via Serbia.

12 JUDGE MAY: And what happened after Dayton? Can you tell us? Did

13 any of them go back?

14 A. About 80 per cent of the population of Janja have now returned to

15 their homes.

16 JUDGE MAY: Thank you.

17 Witness B-1486, that concludes your evidence. Thank you for

18 making yourself available to give it to the Tribunal. You are now free to

19 go.

20 We will adjourn --

21 [The witness's testimony via videolink concluded]

22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May.

23 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Now, what is it?

24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I heard Mr. Groome say at the

25 beginning that he will not keep to the order of witnesses that was

Page 18756

1 announced. He mentioned a witness. I have not managed to remember now.

2 We don't know who the next witness will be. Who is the next witness? May

3 I know, at least, before the break who the witness will be?

4 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Yes. We'll ask Mr. Groome that.

5 B-104; is that right?

6 MR. GROOME: It's B-1493. The witness that was scheduled for

7 Thursday will be accelerated to tomorrow.

8 JUDGE MAY: But who's the next witness, is the question.

9 MR. GROOME: The witness is B-104, Your Honour. That schedule has

10 not changed.

11 JUDGE MAY: B-104 now. And then after him?

12 MR. GROOME: Will be B-1493.

13 JUDGE MAY: And then I think you said Mr. Torkildsen.

14 MR. GROOME: Mr. Torkildsen then.

15 Your Honour, I am informed by Ms. Wee that there's a new witness

16 schedule that will be distributed at the break.

17 JUDGE MAY: Thank you. We'll adjourn now. Twenty minutes.

18 --- Recess taken at 10.53 a.m.

19 --- On resuming at 11.18 a.m.

20 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Let the witness take the declaration.

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

22 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

23 WITNESS: WITNESS B-104

24 [Witness testified via videolink]

25 [Witness answered through interpreter]

Page 18757

1 JUDGE MAY: Thank you very much. If you'd like to sit down.

2 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, I ask that we go briefly into private

3 session so the pseudonym sheet can be placed on the overhead projector.

4 I'm informed that's the only way to keep it confidential.

5 [Private session]

6 [redacted]

7 [redacted]

8 [redacted]

9 [redacted]

10 [redacted]

11 [redacted]

12 [redacted]

13 [redacted]

14 [redacted]

15 [redacted]

16 [redacted]

17 [redacted]

18 [redacted]

19 [redacted]

20 [redacted]

21 [redacted]

22 [redacted]

23 [redacted]

24 [Open session]

25 MR. GROOME:

Page 18758

1 Q. Witness B-104, in order to facilitate and hasten your testimony

2 here today, were you asked to -- with a member of the OTP staff, to write

3 a chart indicating or summarising your educational background, as well as

4 your professional experience?

5 A. Yes.

6 MR. GROOME: I'd ask that the registry personnel on site please

7 show the witness Prosecution Exhibit 424, tab 2.

8 Q. And my question is: Is this a summary of your educational and

9 professional background?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. That your writing at the bottom of that document?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. I want to begin by asking you: Were you a member of the Yugoslav

14 People's Army?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. And was there a time that you were assigned in Nis, Serbia?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And were you attached to the air force brigade in Nis?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Can I ask you to describe for the Chamber briefly what individual

21 units together made up the air force brigade in Nis.

22 A. It consisted of anti-armour helicopter, a unit in Kraljevo, a

23 helicopter transport unit in Nis, and -- excuse me, in Kraljevo, there was

24 an anti-armour and a transport in -- and in Nis, and there was also a

25 reconnaissance unit.

Page 18759

1 Q. What time of aircraft was used in the unit that was responsible

2 for reconnaissance?

3 A. Gazelle helicopters.

4 Q. Were you assigned to one of these units?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Which unit?

7 A. I was in the unit in Nis, the Reconnaissance and Transport Unit,

8 and I flew Gazelle helicopters.

9 Q. What was the name of that unit?

10 A. As far as I remember --

11 THE INTERPRETER: We have lost the sound.

12 MR. GROOME:

13 Q. Can you please repeat your answer. We lost your answer.

14 A. This unit, as far as I can recall, was called the 712th

15 Anti-armour Helicopter Squadron.

16 Q. Was it known by another name as well?

17 A. It was also known as the Skorpions.

18 Q. What were your duties and responsibilities with the 712th

19 helicopter unit?

20 A. I flew as a technician. I worked on maintaining the helicopters.

21 That was my basic assignment in these units.

22 Q. And can you tell us who was your superior officer when you were in

23 the 712th helicopter unit.

24 A. My first superior officer was the commander of the squadron, and

25 his name was Miodrag Petricevic [phoen].

Page 18760

1 Q. Now, can you in a sentence or two just summarise for the Chamber

2 the procedure that was followed when you were paid as a member of this

3 unit.

4 A. When I received per diem for my work, I had to sign a document

5 with the date, the amount, and my signature had to be affixed to that

6 document.

7 Q. I'm going to ask that the registry personnel on site show the

8 witness Prosecution Exhibit 424, tab 3.

9 Sir, I'd ask you to take a look at this document and ask you: Do

10 you recognise this as being a document similar to the document you signed?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And so the record is clear, you do not recognise any of the

13 particular names on tab 3 that's before you now; is that correct?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Now, B-104, I'd like to draw your attention to the winter and

16 spring of 1993, and I want to ask you: Were you assigned as part of your

17 official duties to go to a place called Bajina Basta?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. I will ask you to refer to a map at the conclusion of your

20 testimony, but could I ask you at this stage just to orient the Chamber

21 regarding where, generally speaking, Bajina Basta is.

22 A. This is a place in Serbia near the border with the Republic of

23 Bosnia and Herzegovina, by the River Drina.

24 Q. If one were to cross the Drina and enter Bosnia, what part of

25 Bosnia would one be in?

Page 18761

1 A. The place was called Skelani. That's the first town on the

2 Bosnian side.

3 Q. And do you know what municipality Skelani is in?

4 A. I believe it was part of the municipality of Srebrenica, but I'm

5 sure.

6 Q. Can you summarise for the Chamber what it was you were called to

7 do in Bajina Basta.

8 A. The first time I went to Bajina Basta, it was to transport a

9 wounded soldier from the parachute brigade in Nis. He had been wounded in

10 the operations around Srebrenica. I was to transport him to the military

11 hospital in Belgrade.

12 Q. And can you summarise for us what you did on subsequent occasions

13 in Bajina Basta.

14 A. On subsequent occasions when I went to Bajina Basta, I transported

15 some sort of materiel. I can't remember exactly what. Then it was to

16 reconnoitre and things like that.

17 Q. Did you come to learn that during that period there was an

18 operation being organised out of Bajina Basta?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. And did you come to learn who it was that was in charge of that

21 operation?

22 A. From what people were saying and talking with people who were

23 there in Bajina Basta, the person in charge was Mr. Franko or Frenki,

24 which was his nickname.

25 Q. Do you know his last name?

Page 18762

1 A. As far as I remember, it was Mr. Simatovic.

2 Q. And the operation, in what geographic location was the operation

3 primarily being deployed?

4 A. The operation was being deployed in the location around

5 Srebrenica, which means between Bajina Basta and Srebrenica.

6 Q. Now, were there two locations in Bajina Basta of significance for

7 your testimony here today?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Before I ask you specific questions about those locations, can you

10 just briefly tell us or identify each of the two locations.

11 A. They were locations -- first of all, there was the hotel, which is

12 where they were accommodated, where they slept and spent time. And the

13 other place was a house which was a kind of mini command centre.

14 Q. Now, you've identified yourself as being a member of the 712th

15 helicopter unit. During the times that you were in Bajina Basta, were

16 there other members of the 712th helicopter unit also present?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Were there other members of the Yugoslav People's Army or the Army

19 of Yugoslavia, as it was known at this time, present in Bajina Basta, also

20 participating in this operation?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Again, before I ask you specific questions about each of those

23 units, would you please at this stage simply identify the names of the

24 different units.

25 A. The units of the Army of Yugoslavia who were in those areas and

Page 18763

1 took part in the operations were my own unit, the unit of which I was a

2 member, the helicopter unit; then there was the parachute brigade from

3 Nis; and there is also the guards brigade from Belgrade. All these were

4 parts of units, not an entire unit.

5 Q. Let me ask you about the parachute brigade. Do you know the full

6 formal name of that parachute brigade?

7 A. It was the 63rd Parachute Brigade.

8 Q. And the guards brigade that you referred to, can you tell us, if

9 you know, the full formal name of that brigade -- that brigade and from

10 where that brigade originated.

11 A. Would you repeat that, please. I didn't hear the question.

12 Q. You've mentioned a portion of a unit of the guards brigade was

13 also present. My question to you is: Can you tell us the full formal

14 name of that guards brigade and tell us where they were based, if you

15 know.

16 A. That was the 72nd Guards Brigade, and they were located in

17 Belgrade.

18 Q. Now, in addition to these members of the Yugoslav army, were there

19 members of other armed groups that you saw in Bajina Basta, also

20 participating in this operation?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Can you please identify them for us at this stage.

23 A. They were members of the police from the Republic of Serbia. Then

24 there were also members of the so-called Wolves from the Drina. That was

25 the name of the unit.

Page 18764

1 Q. I want to draw your attention once again to the hotel. Can you

2 please describe where the hotel was located in the town and for what

3 purpose it was used.

4 A. The hotel was located in the centre of town itself, and it was

5 used, as I've already said, to accommodate people during the day and

6 night.

7 Q. During the times you were in Bajina Basta, can you estimate for us

8 to what capacity was the hotel? Was it fully filled, half-filled; can you

9 please estimate that for us?

10 A. While I was in Basta, the hotel was more or less full, full of the

11 people who took part in these operations.

12 Q. And can you approximate for us the number of people that would be

13 in the hotel when it was full?

14 A. Well, the number would be about 100 people. I never counted them,

15 so I can't say exactly.

16 Q. Now, the people that you saw in this hotel, were they dressed in

17 civilian clothes or were they dressed in uniforms?

18 A. All of them were dressed in uniforms.

19 Q. I'm going to ask you to now describe the different uniforms that

20 you saw there, and I'm going to ask you to describe them as the first

21 uniform, the second uniform, so it's clear to us what parts of the uniform

22 belonged to which individual uniform. So would you please describe for us

23 what uniforms you observed -- what you remember about the uniforms that

24 you observed there.

25 A. Well, it was like this: One of the uniforms that I saw around was

Page 18765

1 the type that I wore, which was a camouflage uniform of the Army of

2 Yugoslavia. Then the next type of uniform that could be seen there was a

3 camouflage uniform, the type of uniform that the police wore of the

4 Republic of Serbia. Then there were black uniforms, worn by certain

5 members of the Wolves from the Drina. And then there were some other ones

6 which were olive-green, olive-drab uniforms, also worn by these Wolves

7 from the Drina.

8 Q. Now, you've mentioned two different types of camouflage uniform,

9 one like the one you wore and one like one worn by the police. Can you

10 give us a little bit more detail to help distinguish between those two

11 camouflage uniforms.

12 A. The uniform that I myself wore was predominantly grey or

13 olive-green, a greeny-grey colour, whereas the other uniform worn by the

14 policemen and people who were there was predominantly blue.

15 Q. In addition to these uniforms, did any members or any of the

16 people there wear insignias that you can recall?

17 A. In addition to the uniforms, they wore insignia, the Drina Wolves

18 insignia patches, and also those of Republika Srpska.

19 Q. I'm going to ask that you look at the monitor before you, and

20 there will be an exhibit displayed for you, and that is Exhibit 349.

21 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, when we originally were scheduled to

22 have this witness testify, the register -- the registry had reserved tab 7

23 for this particular patch. So perhaps that would assist the Chamber.

24 Q. I would ask you to take a look at the monitor before you and ask

25 you, do you recognise the patch that you see before you?

Page 18766

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

Page 18767

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. And can you tell us what you recognise it to be.

3 A. This is the patch worn by members of the unit called Wolves from

4 the Drina, or Drina Wolves.

5 Q. Now, during your time in Bajina Basta, did you have an opportunity

6 to speak with many of the men that were there in uniform?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Were you able to identify their place of origin by their accents?

9 A. Well, in principle, yes.

10 Q. Can you tell us what, if any, locations you were able to identify

11 by the accent of the people that you spoke with.

12 A. Judging by their accent, I concluded that they were from Serbia,

13 Montenegro, and Bosnia-Herzegovina.

14 Q. Can you please describe the context in which you saw these men at

15 the hotel. Can you describe the types of things you would see them doing.

16 A. Those people were dressed in uniforms. Just like me, they had

17 probably come there to work on certain assignments in the area.

18 Q. And did you see anything which led you to believe that they were

19 actively engaged in carrying out assignments as opposed to being there for

20 recreational purposes?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Can you please describe what your observations were.

23 A. Well, I observed that they would change frequently. Some would

24 go; others would come in. And also when they returned, when they came

25 back from the field, they would be very tired and dirty looking. So this

Page 18768

1 led me to conclude that they had been in the field and were engaged in war

2 operations.

3 Q. Did you come to learn where it was, generally speaking, that they

4 were engaged in war operations?

5 A. Generally speaking, they were engaged in war operations in the

6 territory of Bosnia.

7 Q. Now, the other location you mentioned that was of significance was

8 a place you referred to as a mini command centre. Again, I would ask you

9 to describe where was this located in the town and describe it in a bit

10 more detail.

11 A. It was in the centre of town. It was a house. As far as I

12 remember, it had an upper storey. Inside there was a sort of office, a

13 quite large office, with some maps in it and radio communications devices,

14 that kind of thing.

15 Q. How many times were you on the inside of this command post?

16 A. Well, two or three times.

17 Q. While you were in Bajina Basta, were there -- or did you see

18 vehicles there that you believed were being used in part for this

19 operation?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Can you please describe those vehicles and where they were

22 customarily parked.

23 A. The vehicles were white jeeps, of the Defender type, and they were

24 usually parked in front of the hotel or in front of the mini command

25 centre, so-called.

Page 18769

1 Q. You said that you were inside the mini command centre two or three

2 times. Can I ask you to tell us about the first time you were in that

3 command centre.

4 A. The first time I went to that mini command centre I went because I

5 had -- needed somewhere to spend the night in Bajina Basta, in a hotel,

6 and I met a girl there and they said that she was Mr. Frenki's secretary.

7 And she phoned Mr. Frenki up to ask him whether I could spend the night in

8 the hotel.

9 Q. Can I ask you to describe her physical appearance as best you can

10 recall.

11 A. She was a young woman with long black hair. She wore a uniform.

12 Q. Did it appear to you in this command centre that she had her own

13 designated work area?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. What was the purpose of your first -- I withdraw that. You said

16 that the purpose of your first trip to Bajina Basta was to do a medevac.

17 Can you tell us a little bit more detail about how you received that

18 assignment and where precisely you were to airlift the injured soldier

19 from.

20 A. I was given the assignment in Nis, and we set out, I myself and

21 the pilot, and then the commander of the parachute brigade of Nis and an

22 officer who, as I was told, was an officer for intelligence work in the

23 parachute brigade. So we left for Bajina Basta. We dropped down at the

24 stadium of Bajina Basta. And the two officers were with us. They went to

25 collect the injured person, and they stayed overnight up there too. I had

Page 18770

1 to go to the hotel and consult my colleagues, who were staying in the

2 hotel, as to where I was going to spend the night.

3 The next day they came back, and they weren't able to carry out

4 their assignment because of the bad weather conditions. The wounded man

5 was transported in a car.

6 Q. Was the original intention to evacuate this injured soldier by

7 helicopter?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. And where precisely was this injured soldier to be -- to be

10 airlifted from?

11 A. He was supposed to be airlifted from the hill or, rather,

12 mountain, I don't know which it is, but the name was Osmace. But we

13 weren't able to land on that hill, so he had to be evacuated by car to

14 Bajina Basta and from there transported to Belgrade by us.

15 Q. And the location where he was to be evacuated from, in what

16 republic was that?

17 A. Bosnia-Herzegovina.

18 Q. Were you informed that this member of the Yugoslav army, of the

19 63rd Parachute Brigade, had been injured in an official capacity in

20 Bosnia?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. How long were you in Bajina Basta on this first trip to that area?

23 A. Roughly about a week. Five, six, or seven days. I don't remember

24 exactly.

25 Q. Did you make subsequent trips to Bajina Basta?

Page 18771

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. On some of those subsequent trips, did you actually see a person

3 you came to know as Frenki Simatovic there?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. You've mentioned members from three units of the Yugoslav army.

6 During your time there, did you form an opinion regarding their

7 relationship to that of Frenki Simatovic?

8 A. In a way, Frenki was the superior to all of us over there.

9 Q. Can you please tell us specifically what it was you observed or

10 heard that led you to that conclusion.

11 A. In principle, Frenki would issue the orders and people would

12 salute Frenki in a way when he was giving out orders.

13 Q. Did you yourself personally observe Frenki issuing instructions or

14 orders to the members of the Yugoslav army?

15 A. Well, not personally. I didn't notice him issue orders personally

16 to members of the Army of Yugoslavia. There was always someone there who

17 was higher up, a high-ranking officer who would communicate with the

18 soldiers.

19 Q. When you were there, did you ever personally see members of the

20 Yugoslav army salute Frenki Simatovic as they would salute a superior in

21 their own ranks?

22 A. No, I did not.

23 Q. With respect to the other units that you mentioned, police units

24 from the Republika Srpska, and the Drina Wolves, did you form an opinion

25 regarding Frenki Simatovic and those units?

Page 18772

1 A. You mean with respect to those units. Mr. Frenki's relationship

2 was superior, and I did notice them saluting him.

3 Q. And did you ever hear him -- were you ever present when he issued

4 a direct order to a member of those units?

5 A. On a couple of occasions, yes.

6 Q. During the time that you were present in Bajina Basta, did you

7 consider Frenki Simatovic to be a superior to you?

8 A. In a way, yes. But not -- but generally speaking, no.

9 Q. When you say "in a way, yes," can you please describe what you

10 mean by that answer.

11 A. Well, what I mean is that Frenki was in charge of everything going

12 on in Bajina Basta. And in view of the fact that he was in charge of that

13 entire operation, we were a unit which came under his command. However,

14 as I've already explained to you, there was always a commanding officer

15 with us who was in charge of communication between Mr. Frenki and the Army

16 of Yugoslavia.

17 Q. If Frenki Simatovic wanted to deploy your helicopter unit in a

18 particular way, can you describe for us the procedure that would be

19 followed.

20 A. Frenki would usually talk to us about the ways and means in which

21 the unit could be deployed, what a helicopter can do. And then he would

22 reach an agreement and the officer who was there would issue orders to us.

23 Q. The officer that you're referring to as directly issuing the order

24 to you, was he a member of the Yugoslav army?

25 A. Yes.

Page 18773

1 Q. And was it the same person throughout the times -- or the

2 different times that you went to Bajina Basta?

3 A. Those people would change from time to time. It wasn't always the

4 same person, one and the same man.

5 Q. Was there ever a time that this officer was not present and orders

6 were communicated to your helicopter unit by another means?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Can you please describe.

9 A. On a couple of occasions people would relay -- people that we

10 recognised there would relay orders to us. And it was a local man,

11 usually, from whom we would be given instructions as to what we were

12 supposed to do.

13 Q. This local man, did you come to learn his name?

14 A. Yes. I remember his nickname, and his nickname was Max.

15 Q. Was he ever in the company of an assistant?

16 A. Very often.

17 Q. And if you can, please tell us the name of that assistant.

18 A. His name was Nedjo.

19 Q. Now, this person that you've referred to as Max, was he a member

20 or could you identify to us whether he was a member of one of the units

21 that you've described for us.

22 A. He was a member of the Drina Wolves unit.

23 Q. And during your time there, did you ever make any observations

24 regarding how he interacted with Frenki Simatovic?

25 A. I noticed that his relationship with Frenki was such that Frenki

Page 18774

1 was his superior.

2 Q. And can you please tell us the precise observations you made that

3 led you to that conclusion.

4 A. I noted in concrete terms that Frenki was issuing orders to him

5 and that he saluted Frenki.

6 Q. Now, the uniform that you wore when you arrived in Bajina Basta,

7 did it ordinarily or did it in fact have emblems and insignias which would

8 identify you as a member of the Yugoslav army?

9 A. Yes, it did have insignia on it.

10 Q. Were you ever given an instruction with respect to the insignias

11 and emblems that would identify you as a member of the Yugoslav army?

12 A. Yes, I did.

13 Q. Can you please describe the circumstances regarding that

14 instruction.

15 A. When I arrived in Bajina Basta, this gentleman, the man whose

16 nickname was Max, would say to me or tell us to take off the insignia of

17 the Yugoslav army and that the flag of Republika Srpska -- or if he told

18 us to put them on, or the Drina Wolves insignia, we were supposed to do

19 that.

20 Q. Were you ever informed about the purpose behind switching

21 identifying emblems?

22 A. Nobody told us exactly, but I concluded that the purpose of the

23 switching of insignia was to conceal the fact that the Army of Yugoslavia

24 was participating in these operations.

25 Q. Now, when you returned from this first trip, your first visit to

Page 18775

1 Bajina Basta, were you able to take -- return in your helicopter?

2 A. No.

3 Q. Did there come a time when you returned to Nis and were -- you

4 were given an instruction regarding insignias on the helicopter?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Can you please tell us what instruction you were given with

7 respect to the insignias on the helicopter.

8 A. With respect to the insignia on the helicopter, my colleagues and

9 I were instructed to take the helicopters to the workshop where the

10 insignia of the Army of Yugoslavia would be removed from them.

11 Q. Was there anything else that could identify the helicopter removed

12 from it?

13 A. The large numbers of the helicopters were removed and small

14 numbers were placed there instead, numbers that could not be seen from the

15 ground when the helicopter was up in the air, and a small round flag was

16 put on the -- on the back part of the helicopter.

17 Q. And can you please describe the small round flag that was put on

18 the back of the helicopter.

19 A. The small round flag was the flag of Yugoslavia but without the

20 five-pointed star.

21 Q. Now, I want to ask you some questions about some of the specific

22 units that you've referred to in your testimony here today. The first

23 unit I would like to deal with is the 63rd Parachute Brigade. Is it true

24 that you saw members of that brigade in Bajina Basta?

25 A. Yes.

Page 18776

1 Q. Can you describe for the Chamber to the extent you're able what

2 kind of operations and what kind of training did members of the 63rd

3 Parachute Brigade have?

4 A. The 63rd Parachute Brigade went through a special kind of

5 training, as did all parachute units everywhere in the world.

6 Q. Did they receive any other specialised training, to your

7 knowledge, aside from parachute training?

8 A. In the description of their training, there were various kinds of

9 training, such as jumping out of a plane, jumping out of a helicopter,

10 warfare under impossible conditions, impossible for ordinary units of the

11 army.

12 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, at this time I'd ask that we go into

13 private session for a few minutes.

14 [Private session]

15 [redacted]

16 [redacted]

17 [redacted]

18 [redacted]

19 [redacted]

20 [redacted]

21 [redacted]

22 [redacted]

23 [redacted]

24 [redacted]

25 [redacted]

Page 18777

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13 Page 18777 redacted private session

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

Page 18778

1 [redacted]

2 [redacted]

3 [redacted]

4 [redacted]

5 [redacted]

6 [redacted]

7 [redacted]

8 [redacted]

9 [redacted]

10 [redacted]

11 [redacted]

12 [redacted]

13 [redacted]

14 [redacted]

15 [redacted]

16 [redacted]

17 [Open session]

18 MR. GROOME:

19 Q. The next unit I would like to draw your attention to are the Drina

20 Wolves. Did you ever have a conversation with the two people you've

21 identified as Max and Nedjo with respect to who it was that was their

22 superior?

23 A. Yes. I did have conversations with them.

24 Q. And who did they tell you was their superior?

25 A. They said Mr. Frenki was their superior.

Page 18779

1 Q. In your conversations with them, did they describe for you or tell

2 you the original name of their unit, what it was called before they were

3 known as the Drina Wolves?

4 A. They told me that they were referred to as Knindze.

5 Q. Do you recall the names of other members of this unit?

6 A. No, I can't recall their names at the moment.

7 Q. Were there people of that unit that appeared to you to have some

8 type of rank or supervisory capacity over other men in the unit?

9 A. In principle, there were no ranks. But you could notice there

10 were individuals who had certain assignments. You could see that by the

11 way they treated others, others whose assignments were more ordinary.

12 Q. Can you tell us the names of some of those individuals?

13 A. As far as I can remember, there was a gentleman there called

14 Njegos. Then I remember there was a gentleman they called Rajo Bozovic.

15 Q. Njegos, did you learn what area of responsibility he had?

16 A. As far as I could see, Njegos was in charge of a unit that was

17 stationed in a hotel at Mount Tara.

18 Q. Now, Mr. Rajo Bozovic, can you describe for us how frequently you

19 would see him.

20 A. Every time he came to Bajina Basta I would see him.

21 Q. And under what circumstances would you see him?

22 A. I would see him in uniform, which meant that he was doing

23 something there.

24 Q. Based on your observations, did you form an impression regarding

25 his relationship to that of the other men of the Drina Wolves?

Page 18780

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

Page 18781

1 A. I saw that in a way he was superior to the others.

2 Q. And can you describe for us your specific observations that led

3 you to that conclusion.

4 A. Specifically, I know that they respected him and they said he was

5 in charge of parts of those units.

6 Q. Did there come a time when you came to learn that there was a

7 group of prisoners also incorporated into that unit of the Drina Wolves?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Can you please describe how it was you learnt that information.

10 A. There was a gentleman there whom they called Pacov, which means

11 "rat," as far as I could remember. And when we were sitting in the hotel,

12 people told me that he had been in prison in Kosovo and that Mr. Frenki

13 got him out of Kosovo.

14 Q. Did you ever have a conversation with Frenki's secretary regarding

15 prisoners present in Bajina Basta?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Can you please summarise that for us.

18 A. This was in fact on that occasion when this girl told me that the

19 man had been in prison in Kosovo.

20 Q. Now, one of the other units that you've described for us here

21 today is the -- I believe you said the 72nd Guards Brigade from Belgrade.

22 Can you tell us a bit more about that unit.

23 A. According to my personal knowledge, this was a special purpose

24 unit and I think it was established primarily for providing security for

25 Tito while he was still alive. They were Tito's escort or bodyguard.

Page 18782

1 Q. Approximately how many men from this unit did you have occasion to

2 see in Bajina Basta?

3 A. I can't recall the exact number, but I saw members of that unit

4 there.

5 Q. In addition to the units that you've described here today, were

6 there other helicopters that you saw in Bajina Basta, and if so, did you

7 learn from where they came?

8 A. There were other helicopters there. They were MI-8 helicopters,

9 and they were at Mount Tara. They came from Nis.

10 Q. Any other aircraft that you can recall?

11 A. I didn't see any other aircraft. There were Gazelle helicopters

12 and MI-8 helicopters.

13 Q. Without going to -- into the detail in open session, did you

14 during one of your trips to Bajina Basta fly a mission into Bosnia, into

15 the municipality of Bratunac?

16 A. Yes.

17 MR. GROOME: I'd ask that we go into private session for the next

18 few questions.

19 [Private session]

20 [redacted]

21 [redacted]

22 [redacted]

23 [redacted]

24 [redacted]

25 [redacted]

Page 18783

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13 Page 18783 redacted private session

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

Page 18784

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13 Page 18784 redacted private session

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

Page 18785

1 [redacted]

2 [redacted]

3 [redacted]

4 [redacted]

5 [redacted]

6 [redacted]

7 [redacted]

8 [redacted]

9 [redacted]

10 [redacted]

11 [redacted]

12 [redacted]

13 [redacted]

14 [redacted]

15 [Open session]

16 MR. GROOME: I'd ask that tab 4 of Prosecution Exhibit 424 be

17 placed on the overhead projector.

18 Q. B-104, you have a copy of this exhibit there with you on site. I

19 would ask you to describe --

20 A. I didn't hear your question.

21 Q. I'm placing Prosecution Exhibit 424, tab 4, on a projector so that

22 those of us in the courtroom can see it. I would ask that the registry

23 personnel down there show you a copy of the same exhibit. And when you

24 have had an opportunity to look at it, can you tell us, do you recognise

25 what it is?

Page 18786

1 THE REGISTRAR: [No microphone]

2 MR. GROOME: And I would ask that it be placed on the overhead

3 projector down on site. And if possible, to zoom out. If we could zoom

4 out some more, please. Just a bit more.

5 Q. Sir, do you recognise this particular map?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And the markings on this map, who made them?

8 A. I did.

9 Q. And is that your handwriting on the upper left corner of the map?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And did you indicate some of the locations you've testified about

12 here today?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. I'd ask you to use a pencil or a pointer and just point to the

15 different markings you made and identify them to the Chamber.

16 A. This is Bajina Basta. This is Skelani, Bratunac, Osmace.

17 Q. Can I ask you to hold the pointer on Osmace for a minute. Please

18 go to the next mark.

19 A. Zeleni Jadar.

20 Q. I'd ask you now just to help orient the Chamber, would you please

21 trace the border between Republic of Serbia and Bosnia and Herzegovina.

22 A. The border runs through this part here.

23 JUDGE KWON: Is Zeleni Jadar the name of a river?

24 MR. GROOME:

25 Q. Judge Kwon has asked you whether Zeleni Jadar is the name of a

Page 18787

1 river or a location. Can you please answer that.

2 A. It's a place, a hill.

3 JUDGE KWON: If you look at the page 33 of Exhibit 336, top right

4 corner, Zeleni Jadar looks like the name of a river or name of a hill.

5 Yes?

6 MR. GROOME: The witness is saying hill, Your Honour.

7 JUDGE KWON: Yes.

8 MR. GROOME: I'm not familiar myself enough with the geography.

9 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.

10 MR. GROOME:

11 Q. During the times that you went to Bajina Basta, did you become

12 aware of other units or other helicopter units also going into

13 Bosnia-Herzegovina?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And would you speak with these men regarding what they were doing

16 in Bosnia?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And what was it that they told you that they were doing in Bosnia?

19 A. Well, they were doing the same thing I was doing. The helicopter

20 units were -- had the same purpose as my own.

21 Q. In addition to the missions that you've already described, did you

22 on other occasions transport Frenki Simatovic between Belgrade and Bajina

23 Basta?

24 A. I flew him from Bajina Basta to Belgrade and back.

25 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, I have between five and ten minutes more

Page 18788

1 of questions. I don't know when the Court is intending on breaking.

2 JUDGE MAY: You may as well continue until the end, and then we'll

3 break.

4 MR. GROOME:

5 Q. Can you please describe the circumstances under which you

6 transported Frenki Simatovic between Belgrade and Bajina Basta.

7 A. I transported him just as I would any other passenger.

8 Q. Was --

9 A. From Belgrade to Bajina Basta -- or rather, from Bajina Basta to

10 Belgrade and back.

11 Q. Was it part of your official duties to transport members of the

12 armed services in your helicopter?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Where would you pick up Frenki Simatovic in Belgrade?

15 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please repeat his answer.

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] At Banjica. That is a place close

17 to Belgrade. Or rather, it's in town.

18 MR. GROOME:

19 Q. On one occasion, did you become aware of a mission of several

20 helicopters that were being sent to the Visegrad area of Bosnia?

21 A. I learnt about an assignment, a mission that the helicopters were

22 supposed to carry out.

23 Q. And where was that mission to take place?

24 A. It was supposed to take place in the vicinity of Visegrad, near

25 the dam there.

Page 18789

1 Q. And when was that?

2 A. I don't remember exactly.

3 Q. Did there come a time when you had an informal meeting with Frenki

4 Simatovic during which the capabilities of your aircraft were discussed?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Without telling us who was present for the moment, can you please

7 summarise what Frenki Simatovic inquired of you and the other people at

8 that meeting.

9 A. He wanted to know of the characteristic features of my helicopter,

10 what the helicopter could carry, how much weight it could carry, whether

11 it could carry machine-guns or not, rifles, whether the helicopter could

12 be shot from. Those were the kinds of questions he asked.

13 MR. GROOME: I ask that we go into private session for the next

14 series of questions.

15 [Private session]

16 [redacted]

17 [redacted]

18 [redacted]

19 [redacted]

20 [redacted]

21 [redacted]

22 [redacted]

23 [redacted]

24 [redacted]

25 [redacted]

Page 18790

1 [redacted]

2 [redacted]

3 [redacted]

4 [redacted]

5 [redacted]

6 [redacted]

7 [redacted]

8 [redacted]

9 [redacted]

10 [redacted]

11 [redacted]

12 [redacted]

13 [redacted]

14 [redacted]

15 [redacted]

16 [redacted]

17 [redacted]

18 [redacted]

19 [redacted]

20 [Open session]

21 MR. GROOME:

22 Q. Sir, my final question for you today is: All of the activities

23 that you've described for us, that you were involved in in Bajina Basta,

24 did you consider those to be part of your official duties as a member of

25 the Yugoslav army or did you consider those to be outside of your official

Page 18791

1 duties?

2 A. I considered them to be my official duties.

3 MR. GROOME: I have no further questions.

4 JUDGE MAY: We're going to adjourn now for 20 minutes.

5 Witness B-104, in this adjournment and any others there may be

6 during the course of this case, don't speak to anybody about your evidence

7 until it's over and don't let anybody speak to you about it. We'll

8 continue your evidence in 20 minutes.

9 --- Recess taken at 12.39 p.m.

10 --- On resuming at 1.03 p.m.

11 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Milosevic.

12 Cross-examined by Mr. Milosevic:

13 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. 104, I would like to establish first of all

14 what your profession is.

15 JUDGE MAY: Private session.

16 [Private session]

17 [redacted]

18 [redacted]

19 [redacted]

20 [redacted]

21 [redacted]

22 [redacted]

23 [redacted]

24 [redacted]

25 [redacted]

Page 18792

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13 Pages 18792 to 18800 - redacted private session

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

Page 18801

1 [redacted]

2 [redacted]

3 [redacted]

4 [redacted]

5 [redacted]

6 [redacted]

7 [redacted]

8 [redacted]

9 [redacted]

10 [redacted]

11 [redacted]

12 [redacted]

13 [redacted]

14 [redacted]

15 [redacted]

16 [redacted]

17 [redacted]

18 [redacted]

19 [redacted]

20 [redacted]

21 [redacted]

22 [redacted]

23 [redacted]

24 [redacted]

25 [Open session]

Page 18802

1 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

2 Q. So have we cleared this point up properly as to what it said in

3 your statement, that your group's assignment was to occupy towns, take

4 control of towns? Your answer was that that was not what you stated and

5 that you don't know how this came to be contained in the statement.

6 That's right, isn't it?

7 A. I said that I didn't say that it was my task to occupy any part of

8 town or towns themselves.

9 Q. And in the next paragraph, the first paragraph on page 4, you go

10 on to say that your group did not take part in a single armed military

11 operation, is that right, upon your arrival in Mostar; right? "My unit

12 was never part of any armed military action."

13 A. In view of the fact that I lived in Mostar, my unit took part in

14 the transportation and reconnaissance work.

15 Q. But your unit, as far as I understood it, did not take part in any

16 military operations, combat operations. Right?

17 A. My unit in that part of the territory never took part. It never

18 carried out any operations, or rather, it never went and shot.

19 Q. Very well. On page 4, in paragraph 5 you say that on several

20 occasions you drove General Cokic from Mostar to Belgrade. And as you say

21 that he had had meetings with General Kadijevic and received orders from

22 him, and you say that Kadijevic was the commander-in-chief. Is that

23 correct?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Well, tell me, where did Cokic and Kadijevic meet?

Page 18803

1 A. I don't know what institution they met in.

2 Q. So you know nothing about the content of these meetings.

3 A. No, I don't.

4 Q. You assume, then, that the Federal Secretary issued orders to

5 Cokic, the commander of the 2nd Operative Group, bypassing the then

6 commander of the air force, whoever he was.

7 A. I don't know whether he met the commander of the air force and how

8 the talks were conducted, but I do know he attended those meetings. Who

9 was present, I don't know.

10 Q. So all that you know was that he went to meetings in Belgrade.

11 You know nothing else.

12 A. That's correct.

13 Q. On page 4 in paragraph 6 you explained the chain of command in the

14 Mostar region in 1991 and you say that it went from Kadijevic to Cokic,

15 who ultimately issued orders to Lazar Murisic, the brigade commander; is

16 that correct?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. This is how you explained the chain of command, and now you say

19 you don't know.

20 A. I know who was there and how the chain of command went in the

21 Mostar region. Lazar Murisic was the commander of the air force brigade,

22 and General Cokic was the commander of the 2nd Operational Group, and they

23 cooperated with each other.

24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Whenever I put the headset on,

25 there's a squeaking noise. But when I take them off, I don't hear well.

Page 18804

1 These links are not very successful.

2 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

3 Q. Very well. Tell me, what military district was Mostar a part of in

4 1991?

5 A. I don't remember.

6 Q. You don't remember. All right. And who was the commander of the

7 air force in 1991 and 1992?

8 A. Believe me, I don't remember that either.

9 Q. So you don't remember that either. Have you heard of General Tus,

10 General Jurevic, and so on?

11 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

12 JUDGE MAY: It's suggested if you put the headset on,

13 Mr. Milosevic, it will be better. Let's try that.

14 THE INTERPRETER: Mr. Milosevic has not switched on his

15 microphone.

16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] On page 4 -- well, when I have the

17 headset on, I can hear my own voice very loud.

18 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

19 Q. On page 4, in paragraph 7, you say you were ordered -- from the

20 9th of May, 1992 all members of the JNA had to remain in their barracks

21 because there was a state of alert. Is that correct?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. I didn't hear your answer because this was off.

24 A. My answer to your question was yes.

25 Q. And why was there a state of alert?

Page 18805

1 A. Probably because of the events taking place in the former

2 Yugoslavia at the time.

3 Q. You say that your task in May 1991 was to fly every day from

4 Mostar to Zadar, taking information, recordings, and so on there, recorded

5 from Yutel.

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. How long did you do this for?

8 A. I don't remember.

9 Q. Do you know what the content of those news items was?

10 A. No.

11 Q. Are you aware that this was a Yugoslav television station with a

12 very strong pro-Yugoslav orientation? It was committed to Yugoslavia and

13 to the equality of republics and peoples. Did you ever watch those news?

14 A. Yes, I did watch some.

15 Q. Did you have to carry those news items to Zadar because they could

16 not receive Yutel in Croatia or watch it because it was pro-Yugoslav in

17 its orientation so it could not be broadcast there?

18 A. Why I had to take this to Zadar, I don't know. All I know is that

19 I had to take those cassettes to Zadar.

20 Q. Very well. Let's move on to something else. On page 4, paragraph

21 6 you mention a commander General Mladic and Mostar.

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Explain why you mentioned this. Do you think it's unusual that

24 the commander of a JNA corps should cooperate with commanders of other JNA

25 units? So why do you mention this at all?

Page 18806

1 A. I've forgotten the reason why I mentioned it.

2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May, I feel that this statement

3 should be introduced into evidence because it contradicts the

4 examination-in-chief.

5 JUDGE MAY: Let's have a copy of it, if we may.

6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Just like many others.

7 I don't have time to deal with all the contradictions, so let it

8 be entered into evidence and we can discuss it later.

9 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

10 Q. You say --

11 JUDGE MAY: Just one moment.

12 Any objection to it being exhibited?

13 MR. GROOME: No, Your Honour. I just ask that it be done under

14 seal.

15 JUDGE MAY: Yes, of course. Yes, we'll exhibit this.

16 The next exhibit number, if we may, for the Defence.

17 JUDGE KWON: 125.

18 THE REGISTRAR: D125. Thank you, Judge Kwon.

19 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

20 Q. You say that two of your colleagues, Jugoslav Babic and Adem

21 Tokic, with respect to Mladic's second visit in February 1992 - February

22 1992, therefore - that you were transported to Visegrad in a helicopter.

23 Is that what you said?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And you claim that Jugoslav Babic, when on that same evening came

Page 18807

1 back with Mladic from Visegrad said that Mladic was on a tank and that he

2 issued the soldiers orders to advance. Is that right, according to you?

3 Is that what you say?

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, may we deal with this

5 in private session?

6 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

7 Q. Well, before we go into private session, let me just ask you, what

8 attack are you talking about in February 1992 led by Mladic in Visegrad?

9 What is the attack you are talking about? Do you have any idea about what

10 you're talking?

11 JUDGE MAY: Do you want --

12 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

13 Q. You're talking about February 1992.

14 JUDGE MAY: Let the witness go into -- let the hearing go into a

15 private session. The witness can then answer.

16 [Private session]

17 [redacted]

18 [redacted]

19 [redacted]

20 [redacted]

21 [redacted]

22 [redacted]

23 [redacted]

24 [redacted]

25 [redacted]

Page 18808

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12 Pages 18808 to 18812 redacted private session

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

Page 18813

1 [redacted]

2 [redacted]

3 [redacted]

4 [redacted]

5 [redacted]

6 [redacted]

7 [redacted]

8 [redacted]

9 [redacted]

10 [redacted]

11 [redacted]

12 [redacted]

13 [redacted]

14 [redacted]

15 [redacted]

16 [redacted]

17 [redacted]

18 [redacted]

19 [redacted]

20 [Open session]

21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, it's a nice thing to have at

22 least something in open session.

23 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

24 Q. On page 5, paragraph 2, you claim that the JNA soldiers, members

25 of the 63rd Parachute Unit, and you call them the Red Berets, that's how

Page 18814

1 you refer to them, that they looted Croatian houses near the Heliodrom in

2 Mostar. Is that what you said? Did you say that?

3 A. I did not say that they --

4 THE INTERPRETER: Interruption.

5 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

6 Q. All right. Just so long as you didn't say what it says here.

7 JUDGE MAY: Well, let us clarify what he did say, since there's

8 been an interruption.

9 Witness B-104, would you just clarify what you meant by that.

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] What I meant was that the members of

11 the 63rd Parachute Brigade went to the places around the airport and that

12 they targeted the houses and the buildings there and that they took from

13 these houses alcoholic beverage and that they took down the HDZ flags and

14 put up the army flag, or rather, the flag, whichever it was at the time.

15 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

16 Q. All right. On page 5, you state the following, in paragraph 2,

17 that is: "When tensions broke out between the Croatian and Yugoslav

18 armies, there was some looting, some abandoned Croatian houses in the area

19 around the Heliodrom in Mostar, and this was done by JNA soldiers, members

20 of the 63rd Parachute Brigade," and in brackets you say the Red Berets.

21 The aviation brigade commander Lazar Murisic knew about this looting

22 without taking any actions to prevent it."

23 So you used the word "looting" yourself, and I am asking you --

24 JUDGE MAY: [Previous interpretation continues] ...

25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I hope you've found it, Mr. May.

Page 18815

1 "When tensions broke out," the paragraph reads.

2 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

3 Q. I'm asking you: Do you accuse the soldiers of the 63rd Parachute

4 Brigade of having looted houses close to the Heliodrom or not?

5 A. I'm not accusing anybody.

6 Q. Well, let's use another expression, then. Do you claim that the

7 soldiers of the 63rd Parachute Brigade looted houses close to the

8 heliport?

9 A. I'm saying that the members of the 63rd Parachute Brigade went and

10 took out of the houses around the heliport goods and alcohol.

11 Q. A moment ago you just said "alcohol," now you add these "goods."

12 Where did they take these goods to then?

13 A. I don't know.

14 Q. Well, I assume they had to return to barracks, didn't they?

15 A. I didn't hear you.

16 Q. I said I assume they had to return to barracks. How could they,

17 then, bring the goods into the barracks?

18 A. I don't know.

19 Q. I didn't follow what they were doing.

20 Q. Well, did you see any of the items that any one of them brought

21 into the barracks?

22 A. I saw alcoholic drinks, and I heard that they had taken video

23 recorders and television sets.

24 Q. Just a minute. I asked you what you saw. You saw alcohol,

25 alcoholic drink.

Page 18816

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. And did you see the video recorders and television sets you

3 mention?

4 A. I didn't see a single one, no.

5 Q. So you didn't see a single one?

6 A. No, I didn't.

7 Q. But you saw the alcohol. Well, how did you get the idea into your

8 head that this alcohol was looted from somewhere? Weren't they able to

9 buy it in a shop in Mostar, a bottle of plum brandy, for example?

10 Couldn't they have bought that?

11 A. In that area, there were no shops.

12 Q. And don't you think that it is not in order to present lies about

13 the looting that this elite unit allegedly did?

14 A. I didn't say the word "loot," "pljacka."

15 Q. So the word was introduced here without your knowledge, was it?

16 A. Once again, let me say that it must be an error in the translation

17 again.

18 Q. All right, fine. Fine. And you claim that they were called the

19 Red Berets; isn't that right?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. You as a soldier are well aware of the fact that the 63rd

22 Parachute Brigade has a name. It is the 63rd Brigade. Who told you to

23 call them the Red Berets?

24 THE INTERPRETER: We did not hear the answer, the interpreters

25 apologise.

Page 18817

1 JUDGE MAY: Let's have the answer, please.

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They wore berets which were red in

3 colour.

4 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

5 Q. All right. When you know all that, now tell me, who commanded

6 this parachute unit?

7 A. I don't remember the name of the person.

8 Q. All right. Fine. So you don't know that either.

9 Now, let's move on to your story about Bajina Basta. In the

10 examination-in-chief, in response to a question from Mr. Groome, having

11 described the fact that these people had been put up in the hotel in

12 Bajina Basta, in response to his question as to how many there were, if I

13 remember, your answer was, "I don't know exactly, I didn't count them, but

14 there were about 100." Was that your answer?

15 A. Yes, it was.

16 Q. So about 100 men in the hotel in Bajina Basta in Serbia, which

17 otherwise Bajina Basta is a tourist spot; isn't that right? A tourist

18 resort?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. And you say about 100.

21 A. Let me repeat once again: I didn't count them. It was a number

22 which is an approximation. There might have been 60, 70.

23 Q. All right. 60, 70, whatever. Let's say even 100. Now, amongst

24 those 60 or 70 or 100 that you mentioned, you enumerated the 63rd

25 Parachute Brigade from Nis, then you go on to state the 72nd Guards

Page 18818

1 Brigade from Belgrade, and then you mention the Drina Wolves or Wolves

2 from the Drina Unit, that is, the police of Republika Srpska. Then you

3 said members of the police force from Serbia; right?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Well, isn't that a little too many units, too many units for just

6 those 70 -- 60, 70, or 100 men?

7 A. They were parts of units, and they weren't all accommodated at the

8 hotel.

9 Q. All right. Fine. All right, Mr. 104. As a one-time JNA member

10 yourself, do you know how many men and infantry brigade numbers of the

11 guards brigade type, how many thousands of men such a brigade has? Do you

12 know anything about that at all?

13 A. I don't remember the numbers.

14 Q. Ah, you don't remember the numbers. You don't remember the

15 insignia of the brigade either, because you speak about the 72nd, whereas

16 in your statement it says 74th. Do you know which guards brigade it was

17 at all?

18 A. Maybe I made a mistake in the number because a lot of time has

19 gone past since then. But it was a guards brigade from Belgrade.

20 Q. All right, a guards brigade from Belgrade, numbers several

21 thousand men, and in those approximately 100 in which you include the

22 Wolves, the people from Republika Srpska, and the 63rd Parachute, et

23 cetera, you also include the guards brigade from Belgrade in all that.

24 A. Let me repeat once again they were all parts of units. They were

25 parts of units, not entire units, whole units.

Page 18819

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

Page 18820

1 Q. So you want to say some atoms of those units, don't you?

2 A. I said parts.

3 Q. Now, as you spoke about and you were shown here the insignia and

4 the patches that you recognised on the sleeves of these Drina Wolves, how

5 many Drina Wolves were there who -- which you noticed?

6 A. I don't know.

7 Q. What did you say?

8 A. I don't know.

9 Q. All right. Roughly. Give us a rough idea.

10 A. I can't really say, not even roughly.

11 Q. You were asked by Mr. Groome whether they were there for

12 recreational purposes or whether they were on a combat assignment of any

13 kind, and your answer was that most probably they were on a combat

14 assignment because they came tired and dirty. So if somebody turns up

15 tired and dirty, I assume that they come to the hotel to have rest and

16 recreation and not to be on some combat assignment of any kind. And

17 doesn't it seem to be to you logical that when you say they came in

18 shifts, that they came for recuperation, to recover? Doesn't it seem to

19 you to be the regular state of affairs or not?

20 A. The hotel didn't serve the purpose of rest and recreation. It was

21 there to accommodate people and to have them spend the night there.

22 Q. All right. Now, is there some helicopter combat operation that

23 was known about on the territory of Bosnia-Herzegovina during that period

24 of time when you were there? Was there anything like that? According to

25 my information, there were no combat operations effected by helicopters at

Page 18821

1 that time. Do you know of any?

2 A. I don't remember any combat operations being performed at that

3 time, as you refer to it. I suppose that's what you mean, combat

4 operations.

5 Q. All right. Any kind of helicopter combat operation at that time?

6 Do you have knowledge about that or anything similar?

7 A. There were various assignments of those helicopter units.

8 Q. All right. Name one combat operation on the part of a helicopter

9 unit that you know of.

10 A. I know about reconnaissance and reconnoitering and then the

11 transportation of freight.

12 Q. I see; freight, reconnaissance. Anything else?

13 A. There were other tasks and assignments as well, judging by the

14 stories told by men.

15 Q. Ah, just storied bandied about; right?

16 A. Yes, right.

17 Q. All right. I won't go into that, then.

18 JUDGE MAY: It's time, Mr. Milosevic. We must adjourn now.

19 Witness B-104, we're going to have to adjourn now. Would you be

20 back, please, tomorrow morning to complete your evidence.

21 Mr. Milosevic, you've got another half hour to finish your

22 cross-examination. If you would prepare on that basis.

23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Did I understand you correctly?

24 Just half an hour?

25 JUDGE MAY: Just half an hour. That's absolutely right. Yes.

Page 18822

1 You will have then had more than the Prosecution, rather more than them,

2 yes.

3 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, Mr. Nice has asked me to inform you --

4 he had some previous discussion with the Bench regarding summaries of

5 transcript references. They have now been prepared for the parties and

6 for the Chamber. With the Court's wish, I will hand them to the legal

7 officer after court today.

8 JUDGE MAY: Very well. I'm afraid I don't recollect it

9 immediately but no doubt we will recall.

10 Let me add something else: Tomorrow we must deal with some of the

11 Rule 92 bis witnesses who we -- were left over from last week. So there

12 must be time for that tomorrow morning.

13 Very well. We'll adjourn now.

14 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned

15 at 2.02 p.m., to be reconvened on Wednesday

16 the 9th day of April, 2003, at 9.00 a.m.

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25