Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 20284

1 Wednesday, 7 May 2003

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 9.03 a.m.

5 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Nice, we've had the opportunity of reading the

6 statements. I understand both of them are referred to in the application.

7 We are satisfied that they come within the Rule. They are cumulative

8 about events in Bratunac, about killings and also generally about killings

9 and deportations -- not deportations, I mean detentions in Bosnia. They

10 fit within the Rule and therefore, we will admit them. Plainly we take

11 into account when it comes to cross-examination the fact that this is a 92

12 bis witness, and therefore, as a result the accused's time for

13 cross-examination must take account of that and must not be diminished

14 because the witness has given his evidence in that way.

15 As I say, Mr. Nice, we've read the statements. We note that parts

16 to be given live. We would encourage you not to spend too long, of

17 course, on the live evidence since we've read the statements.

18 MR. NICE: Your Honour, I'm grateful for that and I will indeed be

19 succinct. The Court will notice a new face sitting beside me.

20 Preparation of this witness was done, for the large part, by Ms. Bibles,

21 with whom you are familiar and Mr. Pugliatti who sits next door to me.

22 Ms. Bibles is away on Tribunal business, public Tribunal business

23 elsewhere and in those circumstances I have the assistance of

24 Mr. Pugliatti beside me.

25 May the witness come in or arrangements be made for him to come

Page 20285

1 in. Can we distribute if they haven't been distributed already exhibit

2 files and have a look at those, perhaps if we have time.

3 JUDGE MAY: I think we have them.

4 MR. NICE: Four tabs. So if the 92 bis package can be given one

5 exhibit label.

6 JUDGE MAY: Yes, the next one.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, Prosecutor's Exhibit 439.

8 MR. NICE: That's the 92 bis package, is it?

9 JUDGE MAY: Yes.

10 MR. NICE: Thank you.

11 JUDGE MAY: And do you want a number for --

12 MR. NICE: A number for the exhibits themselves.

13 JUDGE MAY: Yes.

14 THE REGISTRAR: And that's Prosecutor's Exhibit 440, Your Honours.

15 MR. NICE: There's also a map or a couple of maps he'll be looking

16 at. I'll deal with those separately.

17 There is a summary that I will be, broadly speaking, following.

18 That's not, of course, to become exhibited but if that could be or has

19 been distributed.

20 JUDGE MAY: Yes, it was distributed.

21 MR. NICE: Thank you.

22 [The witness entered court]

23 JUDGE MAY: Yes. The witness take the declaration, please.

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

25 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

Page 20286

1 JUDGE MAY: Thank you. If you'd like to take a seat.

2 WITNESS: WITNESS B-1070

3 [Witness answered through interpreter]

4 Examined by Mr. Nice:

5 Q. For the duration of these proceedings, you will be known as

6 Witness B-1070, 1070. Will you look, please, at this document which is

7 tab 1 of Exhibit 450 and confirm by saying yes, if it is the case, that

8 that is your proper name?

9 JUDGE MAY: 440.

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

11 MR. NICE: 440. Your Honour, if the witness could then please

12 have a map which is going to form part of the map collection. It's a map

13 that has been marked by him and will become Exhibit --

14 THE REGISTRAR: Prosecutor's Exhibit 336.B-1070.

15 MR. NICE: Thank you very much. The map before Your Honours has

16 annotations to assist, figures 1 to 4.

17 JUDGE MAY: I'm not sure I have the map. Where would it be?

18 MR. NICE: Coming separately.

19 Q. And, Witness B-1070, does this map show at positions 1, 2, 3, and

20 4, 1, Bratunac; 2, Kasaba; 3, above Kasaba, Konjevci; and 4, lying on the

21 road between Konjevci and Bratunac, a place where there is village or

22 hamlet called Kravica?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Witness B-1070, you may not have been informed of this and

25 therefore I should do it, we're going to be taking your evidence in the

Page 20287

1 short form that was discussed with you as a possibility yesterday. It's

2 right that you made two statements which have been exhibited to the Court

3 and read by the Judges, and I'm just going to read out a summary of your

4 evidence so that you can sit back, and you needn't look at the map for the

5 time being, sit back and just listen to the summary of your evidence that

6 I'm going to read out.

7 MR. NICE: Your Honours, this witness worked in Nova Kasaba where

8 the main Belgrade to Sarajevo road runs. He observed an increase in

9 military traffic on that road in 1991 and in 1992 compared with the volume

10 of military traffic in the previous 15 years with which he was directly

11 familiar.

12 He observed on one occasion a convoy that stopped and asked for

13 directions to Kravica, point 4 on the map, which is a Serb village in the

14 area. The Chamber will probably know this already. Bratunac itself a

15 mixed community, but these outlying villages, Kravica, Serb villages.

16 Separately, and late on the night of the 26th of December of 1991,

17 the witness saw a van and car with Austrian licence plates in the

18 neighbourhood, that is in his home neighbourhood, from which weapons were

19 being distributed to neighbours who were Serbs. He saw Serb forces come

20 into the town of Bratunac on the morning of the 17th of April, and

21 together with members of the local territorial force, those forces assumed

22 control of the town, there being no resistance offered. The Serb forces

23 including Serb paramilitary forces.

24 He was aware of one particular group identified as Arkan's men

25 present and based in something called the Jasen cafe or restaurant which

Page 20288

1 was across the road from the Bratunac mosque. In the next few days he

2 observed JNA soldiers coming into the town, with one of whom he spoke in

3 the Bratunac post office, that soldier advising him that the troops were

4 from the Semberija Corps from Vojvodina, Srem, and from Banat in Serbia.

5 About the time that members of the Semberija Corps appeared in

6 Bratunac, special police arrived from Belgrade dressed in civilian

7 clothes, stationing themselves at a school called Haca Mithat. Muslim men

8 were arrested, interrogated and killed during this time and included in

9 those were friends of this witness. His precise history is set out in his

10 statements, he spending time substantially at home but then being arrested

11 and interrogated by one of the Belgrade MUP officers.

12 On the 10th of May, Your Honour, perhaps as the Court has read the

13 material it's one detail worth drawing out without getting it from the

14 witness is that the particularly horrifying details of his initial

15 interrogation was that as he left the house, shots were fired, in fact

16 into air but he was told that his family had been killed, his wife and

17 children. He was then interrogated in the belief that he had lost his

18 family. They'd been told that he'd been killed, but he was in due course

19 released to find this was not the case, or each of them to find that it

20 was not the case.

21 Q. On the 10th of May, the witness and his family were forced from

22 their home at gunpoint, taken to the stadium in Bratunac.

23 Now, I think the Chamber will find at tab 4 an annotated aerial

24 plan which perhaps we can place on the overhead projector.

25 And if at any time the Chamber needs to see this part of the

Page 20289

1 aerial view of Bratunac set in a larger aerial view photograph, that can

2 be arranged, but using an A4 paper is always convenient.

3 He was forced with his family at gunpoint to the Bratunac stadium

4 shown on this photograph. There, members of the Bratunac Territorial

5 Defence, the reconnaissance and sabotage unit as well as Serb

6 paramilitaries were engaged in the process of ethnic cleansing that was to

7 follow. The witness was in a position to recognise amongst these men some

8 of the men he'd seen in the Arkan's unit when they first arrived in

9 Bratunac.

10 The stadium was surrounded by members of the regular police,

11 reserve soldiers, and members of the Semberija Corps as well as the

12 Semberija Corps's armoured personnel carriers, and there were more than

13 3.000 people, men, women, and children, gathered in the stadium. Muslims

14 were told to hand in identification documents, money, gold, and valuables

15 and threatened that anybody who declined to do so would be killed.

16 Later, the detainees were ordered to walk towards the stadium

17 exits where trucks and buses were parked. The population of that stadium

18 being divided, women, children, boys under 15 and elderly men over 60

19 going one way, men of fighting age going the other. That group, of

20 course, including this witness. The women, children, elderly and young

21 were loaded into buses and trucks. The men were taken on foot in columns

22 to the local gymnasium at the Vuk Karadzic school, marked as the Chamber

23 can see on the photograph.

24 That male group totalled some 700 to 750 people -- men, but number

25 kept in the gymnasium increased over the next few days by about a further

Page 20290

1 300, bringing, therefore, the total population to about a thousand. Of

2 that thousand, the witness's statements reveal in horrifying detail the

3 majority were killed. Indeed, only about 401 or only 401 survived the

4 next three days of killings to be transferred to Pale.

5 The conditions inside the hangar were appalling, terrifying, and

6 horrifying. While he was there, such was the enthusiasm of the captors

7 for looting that he was forced three times to go back to his house for the

8 purpose of locating jewellery and valuables, indeed on one occasion dug up

9 the entire garden.

10 It was obvious to the witness that the Belgrade MUP members were

11 in a position of authority over other Serbs, and they were in a position

12 to do exactly what they wanted. Included in the details he gives from

13 within his -- in his statement of things that were done is an account of a

14 Muslim holy man clearly target because he was a religious leader, forced

15 to drink beer and other alcoholic drinks, to sing Chetnik songs and to

16 raise his fingers in a Serb salute, thereafter being tortured for some 24

17 hours until he died.

18 Another particularly distressing part of his account, which the

19 Chamber will almost inevitably have found itself focusing on in one form

20 or another, is of a man who was obliged by the captors to choose between

21 which of his two sons present there with him should be shot. The man

22 unable to make that decision, all three of them were shot in consequence.

23 In due course, the witness and 400 others were transported to Pale where

24 they were exchanged.

25 Q. Witness B-1070, I've only got a few questions in addition to that

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Page 20292

1 summary to ask you about, but first of all, just one or two matters of

2 detail which we can take from the exhibits.

3 MR. NICE: Can the witness see, please, Exhibit 440, tab 2 which

4 is available of course in the original B/C/S version and an English

5 version.

6 Q. Can you tell us what this document records?

7 A. This document records a list of persons who were from the primary

8 school called Vuk Karadzic taken to Pale.

9 Q. Thank you.

10 MR. NICE: May the witness now see tab 3 of Exhibit 440.

11 Q. This, please?

12 A. This is the Bratunac mosque which was destroyed on the 11th of

13 May, 1992.

14 Q. And is this the mosque opposite which were stationed Arkan's men?

15 A. Yes, that's right. That is the mosque opposite the restaurant

16 called Jasen.

17 MR. NICE: I have one patch to show the witness. This is

18 349 -- I'm sorry.

19 THE REGISTRAR: It's Prosecutor's Exhibit 349, tab 13.

20 MR. NICE:

21 Q. What can you tell us about this patch? Where, if at all, did you

22 recognise it in the course of your days of detention?

23 A. I didn't see this patch while I was in detention. However, I did

24 see it on the 17th of April in front of the hotel called Fontana, and it

25 was on the uniforms of four persons wearing black uniforms, in fact, who

Page 20293

1 were providing security for the building when there was a meeting being

2 held there between the representatives of the municipal authorities of the

3 SDS and the SDA.

4 Q. Thank you. Then just a few --

5 JUDGE KWON: If the witness can read the letters.

6 MR. NICE:

7 Q. Can you read the letters for us, please? It's in Cyrillic and if

8 you can read what it says, please.

9 A. The Serbian Chetnik Movement, Main Staff.

10 Q. Going back over the general account of your history that I've

11 given, Witness B-1070, in addition to Arkan's men, what other paramilitary

12 units by name were you able to recognise?

13 A. From their entry, the 17th of April, there were only two

14 paramilitary formations in Bratunac, the Eagles and Arkan's men.

15 Q. Thank you. There's one incident that I want you to deal with in

16 particular detail. The Chamber may have seen it in the statement, but I

17 think it's important to give it. It's on page 14 of Exhibit 449, and it's

18 paragraph's 36.

19 THE REGISTRAR: Paragraph -- yes, Your Honour.

20 JUDGE MAY: 439.

21 MR. NICE: Yes, I'm sorry, 439.

22 Q. I explained to the Judges in summarising your evidence how you

23 were taken to your house from time to time in order that those who had

24 detained you could try and find more loot. Did you return from one of

25 those occasions to the gymnasium where water and some food was being

Page 20294

1 distributed but where there was a great noise made by the detained

2 civilians so that Arkan's and Seselj's men started shooting over the heads

3 of people?

4 A. Yes, that's right. That was on the third day before we were

5 exchanged. I had come back from my own house, and I found chaos there.

6 Among the 400 people there were four or five bottles of water. People

7 were very thirsty, exhausted, and it was very hot weather generally. They

8 started trying to get at those four or five bottles of water. And from

9 the hangar that was next to the gym belonging to the primary school

10 Vuk Karadzic, there was a machine-gun nest there and they started shooting

11 above our heads at the gym.

12 Q. In the course of that incident or perhaps after -- after it, did

13 you go to the entrance door of the school? And it may help if we have tab

14 4 on the overhead projector again, please, tab 4 of 440. It's there now,

15 thank you.

16 Did you go to the door of the gymnasium?

17 A. After my return, that is to say when I came back from my house, I

18 was taken off by two policemen, and they introduced themselves as

19 policemen belonging to the Belgrade MUP. They asked me to give them money

20 and other valuables, and then they went on to ask me about a car, whose

21 car it was because they didn't have the keys to open it. So when I went

22 into the hall, one of my friends told me whose car it was, and I went back

23 to catch up with the policemen to tell them who the car belonged to.

24 However, in front of the hall at the entrance I came upon the ruling

25 structures of the Bratunac municipality, that is to say the Serb leaders,

Page 20295

1 Mr. Miroslav Deronjic, Simic, and all the rest of them who were standing

2 there and talking to the drivers who were driving away the corpses of the

3 Muslims that had been killed from Bratunac.

4 Q. Two bits of detail then. Can you just list, beyond the names

5 you've already given, any members of the leadership that you saw there,

6 and can you tell us what conversation, if any, you overheard?

7 A. They were mostly the local Serbs from Bratunac. I think

8 Dragisa Loncarevic was there, then a gentleman who worked in the MUP. I

9 think his surname was Tesic. And several other men whose names I used to

10 know, but I really can't recall all those names right now.

11 Q. Conversation between the local Serb leadership and the drivers of

12 the bodies, taking the dead bodies -- the driver's of the lorry taking the

13 dead bodies?

14 A. Yes. They were there for some 20 or 15 seconds, and I heard the

15 question being asked, "And where did you take them?" And then I had to go

16 back so they wouldn't notice me, so that I wouldn't have to join those

17 that were being driven away.

18 Q. I think really that we've covered enough detail, because it's all

19 in your statement save only for this point that you may be able to assist

20 the Judges with. Your statements made it clear that you saw the most

21 terrible killings going on and that you were in a position to see who the

22 killers were; correct?

23 A. Unfortunately, yes, that is so.

24 Q. And as we've heard just now, you also were in a position even to

25 overhear the role of the leadership as well as the role of the incoming

Page 20296

1 Serbs in all that was happening. Your account reveals that of the

2 thousand people detained, 400 were allowed to leave the premises and were

3 ultimately exchanged in Pale.

4 How -- can you explain how it came about from your understanding

5 that 400 of you were potential eyewitnesses to these terrible crimes were

6 allowed to be exchanged, allowed to be exchanged as opposed to being

7 killed?

8 A. After the exchange, we heard an explanation that somewhere around

9 Sarajevo a large number of Serbs had been captured and that we were the

10 only forces that the Serbs had at their disposal to exchange them with.

11 Q. As your statement reveals, even in Pale, although you weren't

12 personally, I think, beaten in the time of detention, you were beaten and

13 subjected to indignity at the time of the exchange, were you not?

14 A. I think that is either incorrectly written or the statement was

15 incorrectly interpreted. At Pale, on one occasion they beat me up really

16 very badly. And during the exchange, they beat us at two locations. And

17 as you could see on the videos the consequences of those beatings.

18 Q. My error entirely. It wasn't the translation. Yes, you were

19 beaten up seriously the once and then you were also beaten up at the

20 transfer itself. Thank you very much. Will you wait there? You'll be

21 asked some further questions.

22 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Milosevic.

23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May, first of all, I should like

24 to make an objection regarding the sudden shortenings. You decided today

25 that this witness who was to testify live should suddenly become a witness

Page 20297

1 on the basis of his written statement.

2 Not only are we seeing a whole series of witnesses from a civil

3 war from a neighbouring state, but you're even abbreviating their

4 testimony on the very day when they are giving it. I think that such a

5 farce needs no further comment, but I wish it to go on the record.

6 JUDGE MAY: [Previous translation continues]... I will repeat that

7 so it is heard. Such a comment is totally improper. It's not for you to

8 comment on the proceedings particularly in that impertinent [Realtime

9 transcript read in error "pertinent"] manner. If you want to be listened

10 to, behave yourself. We've ruled on this.

11 Now, you can cross-examine. We'll decide how long you have as

12 depending on how it goes along. If you're really going to read out a

13 series of alleged offences towards Serbs there's little point in doing it

14 and we'll move on. If you have some serious cross-examination of this

15 witness you can make it. Particularly if you challenge any of his

16 evidence. You should challenge it.

17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I challenge his entire testimony,

18 Mr. May.

19 JUDGE MAY: Yes. The transcript should be corrected. What I said

20 was the "impertinent manner" in which you had done so, not "the pertinent

21 manner."

22 THE ACCUSED: The transcript is up to you. As for the statement,

23 of course I challenge it, in its entirety.

24 JUDGE MAY: Impertinent is spelled I-m-p-e-r-t-i-n-e-n-t. Yes.

25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I hope you heard me, Mr. May, even

Page 20298

1 though we are discussing here a war in a neighbouring state, I am

2 endeavouring to collect facts relevant to these statements for the truth

3 to be heard as to what happened.

4 Cross-examined by Mr. Milosevic:

5 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. 1070, you say that you lived in the

6 municipality of Bratunac up until the 10th of May, 1992; is that right?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. And then after that, you became a member of the Army of Bosnia and

9 Herzegovina; isn't that right?

10 A. I was mobilised to the Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina.

11 Q. And what is the difference in relation to my question?

12 A. There's no difference.

13 Q. Is it true, Mr. 1070, that you personally --

14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May, I wish to draw your

15 attention to the fact that I'm talking about the personal engagement of

16 this witness, not about any Serbian witnesses that you have cautioned me

17 not to read out because that is of no interest to you. I understand that

18 that doesn't interest you. I'm talking about the personal participation

19 of this witness and the personal acts committed by this witness himself,

20 so it relates to him.

21 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

22 Q. Is it true that you, on the 14th of December, 1992, you

23 personally, Mr. 1070, carried out crimes in the villages of Sikiric,

24 Bjelovac, Loznicka Rijeka, all of these being in Bratunac municipality?

25 Is that true?

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Page 20300

1 A. That is the greatest nonsense I've heard so far, because I

2 provided this Tribunal with documents to prove that in those days I was at

3 a quite different location.

4 Q. I can assume very well that you did provide documents. Do you

5 know the names of the following persons who are also your compatriots,

6 which means Muslims, and who were also under the command of Naser Oric and

7 his assistant Zulfo Tursunovic?

8 A. Could I please look at those names?

9 Q. I will read them out. I can't give them to you to look at because

10 I have them in my notes. Do you know, therefore, Alija Ibric, father's

11 name Mujo, Hidan Salihovic, Besim Salihovic, Reso --

12 JUDGE MAY: That's enough. Now, let the witness answer one by

13 one. It will be much easier.

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know those names. As for my

15 name, you will see that it doesn't contain the name of any parent, nor the

16 date of birth, nor the place of birth. Therefore, in those days, I was a

17 member of the 2nd Corps of the army of Bosnia and Herzegovina, and I was

18 stationed in Kladanj, and as proof, I have brought my military booklet

19 with the stamp of the unit of which I was a member.

20 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

21 Q. I don't doubt at all that you have documents to prove whatever you

22 will, but please, since you're a protected witness, I can't ask you

23 questions about your first and last name.

24 [redacted]

25 [redacted]

Page 20301

1 [redacted].

2 Q. Can you then tell me the name of that village?

3 JUDGE MAY: I think we'll going into private session for these

4 matters.

5 [Private session]

6 [redacted]

7 [redacted]

8 [redacted]

9 [redacted]

10 [redacted]

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19 [redacted]

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21 [redacted]

22 [redacted]

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24 [redacted]

25 [redacted]

Page 20302

1 [redacted]

2 [Open session]

3 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session.

4 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

5 Q. Very well. You said you didn't know these names I read out, and

6 do you know Dzemail Kamenica, Ramiz Kamenica, Munib, Esmo Kiveric,

7 Midhat Salihovic, Adil Salihovic, Ekrem --

8 JUDGE MAY: Break there. Witness B-1070, were you able to get --

9 were you able to get those names and do you know any of them?

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I am really sorry, but in our part

11 of the world, there are many people with the same first and last names.

12 To be able to say whether I know any one of them, I would have to know the

13 father's name, date of birth, and the like. I think I don't know these

14 names and that some surnames are not at all from Bratunac municipality.

15 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

16 Q. And do you know Mirsad Malagic and Mujo Malagic for instance?

17 A. That is a very common surname in Bratunac municipality, and in

18 three or four local communities, there are people with those names.

19 Q. Very well. Since you participated in these crimes committed

20 against Serbs in the villages of Sikirica, Bjelovac, and Loznicka Rijeka,

21 do you know how many Serbs were killed and what their names were?

22 JUDGE MAY: You've been told this. It's no point putting

23 something to a witness which he's denied and it's particularly improper

24 pretending he's accepted it, which you appear to be doing, and he hasn't.

25 But the witness can be asked the latter part of it -- just a moment. It's

Page 20303

1 alleged that you have killed Serbs. Now, Witness B-1070, you should have

2 the chance of dealing with that. Have you killed any, and if so, what

3 were the circumstances?

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I answer with full

5 responsibility that I didn't kill a single Serb. I can say with full

6 responsibility that I am not the person that the accused believes I am,

7 and I think to call someone a war criminal without any proof, without

8 knowing the full name and other particulars is impermissible.

9 I do not consider the accused to be a war criminal until the court

10 proves that he is a war criminal. And what he is alleging against me is

11 extremely insulting for me, and I think it could cause problems for my

12 family.

13 JUDGE MAY: Witness B-1070, do not be insulted. The accused is

14 entitled to put allegations, which is all they are, which he says he has,

15 to you. It is your answers which are the evidence, not what he says.

16 What he says is not evidence at all. Your answers are the evidence, and

17 you are entitled to deal with it and you have dealt with these

18 allegations, and they're no more than that. And as you've explained, it's

19 quite possible he's got the wrong man.

20 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May, you said that I was

21 assuming that he had agreed to my allegation that he was involved in

22 killings. I'm not pretending at all. I'm just stating that he did

23 participate. I heard very well that he said that he didn't, which is of

24 no surprise to me, of course.

25 JUDGE MAY: But if the witness denies that, then you can't put it

Page 20304

1 again as though it were a fact. That's the point. But let's go on.

2 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

3 Q. Mr. 1070, did you take part in the killing of 21 Serbs in the

4 village of Sikiric in Bratunac municipality?

5 JUDGE MAY: He has, first of all, denied that he killed any Serbs.

6 So there's no point putting that all over again. Secondly, he's denied

7 being involved in any crimes in Sikiric. So there's no point putting that

8 all over again.

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, on the 16th of May, I

10 was exchanged at Visoko. In mid-August, I came to the Tuzla canton, and I

11 was still recovering from the injuries sustained in the camps. After the

12 16th of May, I did not go back to Republika Srpska again until the end of

13 the war. Therefore, I wasn't present in those areas at all at the time

14 the accused claims those crimes occurred. So please let my name not be

15 connected with something I have nothing to do with.

16 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

17 Q. Very well. Let's then move on to something that you are connected

18 with.

19 You say that you gave a statement to the authorities in Bosnia in

20 July 1992. Is that right?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. When those events were fresh in your memory. And a lot of time

23 has gone by since, and it is difficult for you to recollect all the names.

24 A. At this point in time, I must be allowed to forget a name or two

25 or be mistaken about a date, but the events have been so deeply imprinted

Page 20305

1 in my memory that they cannot be forgotten.

2 Q. You still do remember that before the conflicts broke out that

3 day-to-day life in the municipality was normal, that people got on well

4 regardless of whether they were Serbs or Muslims. And you speak about

5 that on page 2 of your statement, unless that is somebody else's

6 statement. Is that your statement?

7 A. Yes, we did get on, and there were no problems between us.

8 Q. And in that same paragraph that I referred to a moment ago, you

9 say that it was like that right until the beginning of the war in Croatia

10 in 1991 when, as you say, you noticed changes among your Serb friends,

11 because they were advocating more stronger feelings about Serbian

12 nationalism.

13 A. Yes, because a large number of Serbs from Bratunac would regularly

14 attend your rallies that you were holding all over Serbia.

15 Q. Tell me, please, do you remember the 1st of September, 1990, when

16 the founding assembly was held of the Party of Democratic Action? Do you

17 remember that?

18 A. No.

19 Q. So you don't even remember the founding assembly meeting of the

20 SDA that was held in a rather heated, militant atmosphere? You don't

21 remember that?

22 A. Politics was absolutely of no interest to me. I was satisfied to

23 be able to live and have a decent life, and as I had no plans of making a

24 political career, I had no interest in them.

25 Q. But I see that you were interested in rallies in Serbia, yet you

Page 20306

1 were not interested in a rally in your own town. That doesn't seem to be

2 very logical, does it?

3 A. Well, you asked me a question as to when the change in the

4 feelings of Serbs could be felt towards Muslims and other peoples.

5 Q. You say that this was linked to the war in Croatia. What did the

6 Muslims have to do with the war in Croatia?

7 A. In my view, none. However, a large number of soldiers of the

8 Yugoslav People's Army, regular soldiers of the Yugoslav People's Army

9 were at the front in Croatia. Among them, Muslims as well.

10 Q. Yes, Muslims were there too.

11 MR. NICE: Your Honour, I think the time has come when it would be

12 helpful for the witness to have the statement before you particularly if

13 the accused is going to be putting propositions derived from the

14 statement. It will also help all of us if the accused identifies the

15 relevant statement by the handwritten number in the margin, because I

16 think the page numbers of the B/C/S and English versions may not coincide

17 and in any event the whole purpose of having numbered paragraphs is to

18 enable swift identification of the relevant part of any statement.

19 JUDGE MAY: Yes. The witness can have the statement.

20 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

21 Q. All right, Mr. 1070. Do you remember over a thousand Muslims in

22 Bratunac who demonstrated in the streets because, as you say, you don't

23 remember the founding assembly session of the SDA. Do you remember those

24 demonstrations? They were rather militant. Do you remember threats made

25 to the Serbs and cries that "Bosnia belongs to Muslims and Serbia belongs

Page 20307

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Page 20308

1 to Serbs, that Serbs should go to Serbia"? Do you remember those events

2 in Bratunac municipality?

3 A. I really don't remember these events. You'd have to refresh my

4 memory, what events are you talking about.

5 Q. I'm talking about the demonstrations in Bratunac in 1990. I'm

6 talking about these events. You said it was Serbs who started feeling

7 animosity towards the Muslims, and I have information here exactly to the

8 opposite.

9 A. You had information also that I was a war criminal, and I don't

10 even remember there were any demonstrations in 1990.

11 Q. So you don't remember any demonstrations in Bratunac. Let's take

12 this off the agenda.

13 A. You'll have to refresh my memory.

14 Q. Do you remember Muslim demonstrations in Bratunac?

15 A. What demonstrations?

16 Q. Do you remember any demonstrations at all?

17 A. I remember two Muslim protest rallies. The first one was when the

18 army had come to take away military records, and the second was after the

19 murder and -- murder of two Muslims and wounding of one Muslim, but I

20 think it was in 1991.

21 Q. Can you answer me, is it true that as early as in mid-1991, 1991,

22 I'm not talking about 1992 yet, the leadership of the Party of Democratic

23 Action organised illegal procurement of weapons and establishment of

24 military units? Is that true or not? Just tell me yes or no.

25 A. You'd have to ask the people from the SDA, because I am not a

Page 20309

1 member. And I was never offered a barrel or ammunition, nor did anyone

2 inform me that any such activities were being carried out on the ground.

3 Q. All right. Do you know that in mid-1991 Reza Muhic [phoen] set up

4 his own unit consisting of 50 men, precisely in Bratunac?

5 A. No.

6 Q. You know nothing about it?

7 A. No.

8 Q. Do you know anything at all about the events which made Serbs, as

9 a minority in Bratunac, fear all the more for their safety, and as early

10 as in the beginning of 1991, they started hiding their children at the

11 houses of their relatives from Bratunac. Do you know why they started

12 feeling insecure and unsafe?

13 JUDGE MAY: Let's deal with this in two sections. What is alleged

14 is the Serbs were in a minority in Bratunac. Can you confirm that?

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Only during the census was it that I

16 learned that the Serbs were a minority. In every other way, they were

17 equal. There was no way you could tell that they were a minority in

18 Bratunac.

19 JUDGE MAY: Was there any indication in 1991 in the beginning that

20 they, the Serbs, were in fear?

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I lived in the town of Bratunac

22 where the population is 50/50. Very openly and under full responsibility

23 I assert that from the town of Bratunac, not a single Serb left under

24 duress or pressure, nor did anyone hide their children away all the way

25 until April 1992.

Page 20310

1 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

2 Q. So what I was saying is not correct, that they hid their children

3 away from Bratunac due to those threats, demonstrations, pressure exerted.

4 JUDGE MAY: He just said that.

5 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

6 Q. All right. Do you remember that it was precisely these extremists

7 of the SDA who used every cultural sports event or any large gathering of

8 people to promote Islamic and Ustasha symbols and iconography and to make

9 threats to Serbs in Bratunac? Do you remember anything of the atmosphere

10 that was being created then and who did it?

11 A. I was a member of the management of the football club in Bratunac

12 which consisted of both Muslims and Serbs. In that football club, 60 per

13 cent of players were Serbs. Perhaps only 40 per cent were Muslims. And

14 the club successfully continued until the beginning of 1992. And I claim

15 under full responsibility that at all football matches, not a single

16 national flag was waved. Not a single national slogan was cried out.

17 And as for local village clubs in villages which were ethnically

18 pure, either Serb or Muslim, I don't know what happened. I was not

19 interested in those villages at all.

20 Q. All right. Do you remember at least the -- the event in the

21 primary school in Kravica? For decades, children from the surrounding

22 villages were schooled there regardless of whether they were Serbs or

23 Muslims. You must remember that Muslims, in order not to mix with Serb

24 children, organised an ethnically pure primary school in Konjevic Polje

25 and named it Babo Hamza. Religious teaching was introduced there and

Page 20311

1 exclusively Muslims were schooled.

2 A. Konjevic Polje is 20 kilometres away from Bratunac. I have

3 absolutely no connection, no links to that village, and I don't know why

4 you're asking me questions about matters like this because I told you I

5 didn't belong to any political party. I wasn't interested in politics.

6 Seventy per cent of all my friends were Serbs, and if anything was

7 going on, believe me, I would not be entrusted with any responsibility

8 because the people I socialised with were mostly Serbs.

9 Q. Are you saying that those Serbs, friends of yours, committed any

10 crimes against Muslims?

11 A. No. Friends remain friends, and they are still my friends today.

12 Q. If you don't want to say this in open session, tell me in closed

13 session. Do you still live in Bratunac?

14 A. No. My property has not yet been restored to me, the property I

15 have in Bratunac.

16 Q. Fine. Do you remember any events from 1992 that took place in

17 Bratunac, the shattering of windows there, burglaries in kiosks --

18 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction, the year 1991.

19 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

20 Q. Do you remember any intimidation of Serbs to make them leave?

21 A. The shattering of windows -- the burglaries in kiosks, I do

22 remember. Because they took place even before these events and Kiosks and

23 shops are always broken in and everybody knows why.

24 Q. That is really witty, and it's true I suppose as well. But I'm

25 talking about violence as means of intimidation. You don't remember any

Page 20312

1 of that, do you?

2 A. In the town where I lived, the population was half/half, Muslim

3 and Serb, and I claim under full responsibility that until April 1992, in

4 that area there were no incidents whatsoever, not on ethnic or religious

5 grounds.

6 Q. That's what it makes it so insane that you began killing each

7 other in such an ethnically mixed community?

8 A. The funny thing is that's not the way I remember it. I don't

9 remember that we were killing each other. I remember that we were being

10 killed. I don't remember a figure of 1.000 killed Serbs. I only remember

11 1.000 Muslims who were killed.

12 Q. Are you saying that in Bratunac municipality there was more than

13 one terrible massacre of Serbs and many Serb villages were razed to the

14 ground? A lot of population who was unable to escape was killed. You

15 know nothing about it?

16 A. Give me a single example before the 10th of May of Muslims

17 committing a single crime in Bratunac against the Serb population. After

18 the 10th of May, I was expelled from my own hometown, from my own town. I

19 went elsewhere, and what went on in Bratunac, I really don't know.

20 JUDGE MAY: Help us with this, Mr. Milosevic, if you would. When

21 is it alleged that the killings of these Serbs took place?

22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May, I will answer your

23 questions when it's my turn to testify, and you cannot ask me questions.

24 JUDGE MAY: No. But it would help us, you see -- it would help us

25 in trying to understand the position if we knew when it was you

Page 20313

1 said -- you allege that these killings took place. Otherwise, we will

2 assume that they took place after the takeover of Bratunac in April. That

3 seems to be what happened. If you say otherwise, you should tell the

4 witness. He must have a chance to answer it.

5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I'll put my questions to the witness

6 the way I see fit.

7 JUDGE MAY: Very well. I'm going to -- just a moment. You can

8 wait.

9 Help us with this: You've said that relations were good in

10 Bratunac. It may help us get a picture. And most of your friends were

11 Serbs, and the football club went on playing, and then in April, these

12 terrible things happened which the accused has so far not challenged.

13 Three hundred -- 600 people killed in the gymnasium.

14 Was it your impression that this was the local Serbs who were

15 responsible for what happened or was it people who came in from outside,

16 from Serbia and the rest? What -- who -- you were there at the time. Who

17 did you think was doing all this, or can you not really say?

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As for the killings, the killings

19 were committed by people who had come from outside. As for orders, orders

20 were issued by the top leadership of the SDS. And as to who provided

21 lists of people, because nobody was killed casually or randomly. Nobody

22 was just randomly stopped in the street. Everybody was arrested and

23 killed according to lists. I suppose the lists were provided by local

24 Serbs.

25 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Page 20314

1 Q. All right. Let's clear up at least this issue, Mr. 1070. I noted

2 that you said in this abbreviated testimony of yours, in the few words

3 that you said viva voce, from the time they entered on the 17th of April,

4 there were two paramilitary units. That's the way you put it, two

5 paramilitary formations. My question is: Did you at any point during

6 these events see any presence of the Yugoslav People's Army or any police

7 unit from Serbia?

8 A. Yes, during the ethnic cleansing of village, the forces that

9 accompanied the Territorial Defence were APCs and tanks of the JNA. And

10 as for the police, the Belgrade MUP, it was them who took me into custody.

11 They introduced themselves. And the people who guarded me before the

12 inspector came to interrogate me, the inspector was said to belong to the

13 Belgrade MUP. And they took me three times to my house to show them where

14 the money or gold jewellery or God knows what was allegedly hidden.

15 Q. Mr. 1070, is it clear to you that people from the Belgrade police

16 force would never go to do a thing like that even as near as Loznica in

17 Serbia? It would be done by the police from Loznica or Sabac or any other

18 place. Do you really believe that people from the Belgrade police came

19 from Bratunac to dig up your gold?

20 A. Unfortunately, we live in such times that you start believing

21 everything.

22 Q. Well, in principle, that might be true, but how many were those

23 people who introduced themselves as members of the Belgrade police?

24 A. Three of them said they were from the Belgrade police. The first

25 one who questioned me that day was nicknamed Bane. There were another two

Page 20315

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Page 20316

1 who said they were from the Belgrade police who took me home, and it was

2 11 of them who came to arrest me the first day.

3 Q. So three of them said they were from the Belgrade police force.

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Did they identify themselves? Did they show their IDs which they

6 were supposed to do when carrying out official actions?

7 A. Mr. Milosevic, it was the kind of time when nobody introduced

8 themselves. It was a time when people were mistreated without trial,

9 without evidence.

10 Q. Mr. 1070, certainly it was the worst possible time. In civil war,

11 everybody kills everybody. But I'm asking you now, kindly please set that

12 aside. On what basis did you say that those three men who came to ask you

13 to dig up some sort of money were from the Belgrade police, unless it was

14 because they just said so?

15 A. I don't know whether they were really from the Belgrade police.

16 However, I was born on the bank of the Drina River three kilometres away

17 from the border with Serbia, and I know very well and claim with full

18 responsibility that these people were from Serbia, because Bosnian Serbs,

19 however hard they tried to speak the Serbian Serbian language, they never

20 manage. Whether they were really members of the Belgrade police or not, I

21 cannot know. They said they were, and the guards said they were. Why

22 they said so, you should ask them.

23 Q. All right. Very well. Now, in view of the fact that the person

24 that was -- as somebody who was interested in the events, have you read

25 the book by Besim Ibisevic, the president of the Municipal Assembly of

Page 20317

1 Srebrenica, for example? That might have interested you. About the

2 events that took place in your parts. Have you read his book?

3 A. I'm really sorry to have to say that I have not read a single book

4 linked to that area and describing those events. Those books were written

5 by people who fled before the conflict actually broke out, and they left

6 the people to fend for themselves. I belong to the ordinary man who had

7 to pay dearly for the events that took place. People leaving Bratunac on

8 the 15th and 16th of April were quite different. So I'm not interested in

9 books of that kind.

10 Q. I can well understand that. All I asked you is whether you had

11 perhaps read the book so I can ask you some questions relating to the

12 book, but as you have not I'm not going to ask those questions. And I do

13 believe you when you say that you have not read the book.

14 Now, tell me this, please, that they fled three days before the

15 conflict broke out, your leadership in fact your leaders, I can well

16 believe that. I really do believe you when you say that.

17 In your statement, you mention that of the military facilities

18 that existed, there was only a warehouse, a depot in the town of Bratunac.

19 A moment ago, you also said that in the region in which these events came

20 to pass that you saw some JNA units. Could you please now tell me quite

21 precisely whether you did actually see any JNA members kill a single

22 Muslim or, rather, any human being at all that you are testifying about in

23 your statement?

24 A. The JNA units took part or, rather, assisted in the ethnic

25 cleansing of Muslim villages. And I can say with full responsibility that

Page 20318

1 I did not actually see a single JNA member kill anybody, any Muslim,

2 because I didn't live in those villages. I wasn't there in the villages

3 that were cleansed and burnt down where the people had been killed. All I

4 can say is that in my particular village or, rather, my district, the

5 district I was expelled from, nobody was killed until the arrival at the

6 stadium.

7 Q. And do you know that the JNA precisely during that period of time

8 had only one role to play and that was to quell the situation and to make

9 it impossible for international -- for inter-ethnic conflicts to break out

10 in its area of responsibility?

11 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Milosevic, the witness can only answer as to what

12 he saw and heard. Generalised questions like that are of no assistance

13 and cannot be answered by him. He says the JNA were there. Now, you can

14 ask him about that, of course, as you have done about the individuals, but

15 he said tanks and APCs were involved in the ethnic cleansing.

16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May, he said that he didn't see

17 a single soldier, JNA soldier, kill a single Muslim. That is also what he

18 said. Of course, you don't wish to hear that portion.

19 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

20 Q. But I'm asking you now, wasn't it perhaps -- did he not perhaps

21 possess some information which would help us ascertain that the JNA was in

22 fact endeavouring to stop the conflicts and clashes and to calm the

23 situation, to calm the inter-ethnic conflicts or not? Perhaps he has

24 information of that kind?

25 JUDGE MAY: Wait a moment. That is a concrete question, and he

Page 20319

1 can answer it.

2 Did it appear to you or have you any information that the JNA was

3 trying to stop the conflict?

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, sir, in the period from

5 the 10th to the 13th or, rather, the evening of the 13th of May when the

6 largest massacres took place and when hundreds of people were killed in

7 the Vuk Karadzic Primary School, the JNA was present. Why didn't it

8 protect us? Why didn't it expel those paramilitary formations and protect

9 the people in the gym who were being killed?

10 JUDGE MAY: When you say it was present, would you clarify that?

11 Where was the JNA when you were in the gym?

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They were in Bratunac. They had

13 APCs. Their APCs continued to be parked in front of the Fontana Hotel. I

14 know that one APC had broken down and that they took a mechanic over to

15 try and repair it, but they never returned. And when they went to

16 Pale -- when we were taken to Pale, two APCs escorted us.

17 JUDGE ROBINSON: Just a second, Mr. Milosevic. I want to ask the

18 witness in what numbers were the JNA present?

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can't give you a number. I can't

20 say exactly, but I would say there were one or two companies, for example,

21 the strength of one or two companies. I know that there were transport

22 APCs, and tanks and some infantry. They were put up there.

23 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

24 Q. What was that?

25 A. The JNA entered Bratunac, I think, around the 20th of April or

Page 20320

1 maybe the 21st of April, after the takeover of Bratunac by the Serb

2 paramilitaries.

3 Q. All right. Was the JNA there in passing? Was it on its way from

4 somewhere and going in the direction of somewhere else or had it arrived

5 to carry out an assignment, a particular assignment in Bratunac?

6 A. I really can't say. I don't know.

7 Q. Well, when it appeared, that particular unit, the unit you talked

8 about, and it will be easy for us to establish what was going on there,

9 but on that occasion was anybody killed when they turned up?

10 A. After the JNA entered, the unit left. But two days later, it

11 returned, and that's when the killings started.

12 Q. Who returned? Who came back?

13 A. The unit, the paramilitary unit.

14 Q. Ah. So you're talking about a paramilitary unit, are you, not the

15 JNA. Let's clear this point up. The JNA arrived in Bratunac and the

16 paramilitary unit left Bratunac. Is that right?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Then the JNA left Bratunac and the paramilitary unit returned to

19 Bratunac, is that it?

20 A. No. The JNA stand -- the JNA stood on in Bratunac and the

21 paramilitary unit returned.

22 Q. Well, what stayed on in Bratunac except this broken down APC?

23 A. Well, not this broken down APC, the other transporters were there.

24 The APCs that had taken place in the cleansing -- taken part in the

25 cleansing in Bratunac throughout the time.

Page 20321

1 Q. Tell me, these APCs, the one that escorted you to Pale, for

2 example, those vehicles, what date was this? When did they escort you to

3 Bratunac, these two APCs? What date was that?

4 A. I think it was the 14th of May. The 13th or 14th, in the evening.

5 Q. All right. Now, these APCs did they belong to the Republika

6 Srpska or to the JNA, the ones that escorted you up to Pale?

7 A. Well, as far as I'm concerned, I think they belonged to the JNA.

8 They had the five-pointed star as their emblem, and they were wearing

9 olive green uniforms, and I considered them to be the JNA.

10 Q. What about the people who were transported to Pale? Were they

11 supposed to be protected? Were they being in fact protected?

12 A. From whom?

13 Q. Anybody. How many of you were there? You say there were several

14 hundred? That's right, isn't it?

15 A. Yes, 400 in fact.

16 Q. All right. Four hundred. And the object of you being transformed

17 was to be exchanged ultimately; is that right?

18 A. I assume so.

19 Q. Well, I assume they were going to exchange you alive; right?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. So I assume by the same token that somebody was there to protect

22 you if they wanted to exchange you alive.

23 A. Well, where were the APCs and units from the 10th to the 13th of

24 May then?

25 Q. Well, I can't know that. I can't say?

Page 20322

1 A. Why didn't they protect us when they ought to have done? Why

2 didn't they expel those criminals, if I can call them that, who killed the

3 innocent people in the halls, sports hall? Where were they then? And

4 they were stationed behind the Fontana Hotel.

5 Q. Mr. 1070, the people who killed innocent persons in the hall were

6 certainly criminals, and I have no reason to say otherwise or enter into

7 polemics with you about that. All I want to establish is whether that was

8 done by the JNA. You said that you did not see a single JNA soldier kill

9 anybody at all.

10 Q. Well, I wasn't in the field. I wasn't there when the ethnic

11 cleansing of those villages took place, so I can't say something I don't

12 know about.

13 Q. That's why you can't claim that the JNA took part in any ethnic

14 cleansing either; is that right?

15 JUDGE MAY: This is all a matter of argument and comment. Let's

16 move on.

17 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

18 Q. All right. Then tell me this: You mentioned that of the military

19 facilities there was only a warehouse or a depot in Bratunac and this is

20 on page 3, paragraph 1 of your statement.

21 A. Yes. And the warehouse was in the old tobacco company.

22 Q. Yes. You probably know that better than me. I'm reading your

23 statement, so that's why I'm asking you.

24 Now, is it also correct that in 1991, as far an a back as 1991,

25 and I assume you'll know this, that the weaponry of the Territorial

Page 20323

1 Defence which all the companies had, and factories too, was stolen? All

2 those arms were stolen and transported to Muslim villages in the

3 surrounding areas of Bratunac.

4 A. No. That is not correct. The weapons from the warehouse of the

5 Territorial Defence in Bratunac were taken away by the army.

6 Q. The army?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. This president of the municipality in his book says they even

9 stole a cannon.

10 A. Which mayor of mine, president of the Assembly.

11 Q. This Ibisevic man?

12 A. Was he not the mayor of Srebrenica and perhaps these warehouses

13 and depots belong to Srebrenica and not Bratunac.

14 Q. My questions are about Bratunac?

15 A. Well this, Besim Ibisevic probably didn't write a thing about the

16 Bratunac municipality but Just about the depots of the Srebrenica

17 municipality. As far as the warehouses in Bratunac are concerned, it was

18 the army who took away the weapons. And you can check that out very

19 easily. That would be no problem for you.

20 Q. You say that Serb nationalism was present, could be felt in some

21 way. I'm reading from your statement, page 3, paragraph 3. "I knew that

22 there were strong feelings of Serbian nationalism." But you say, "As far

23 as I know, it was not directed against the Muslims." That means that

24 there were no bad feelings or relationships between the Muslims and Serbs.

25 Wasn't that how it was?

Page 20324

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Page 20325

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. All right then. Now, what caused, as far as I remember the

3 elections were held, power was divided up among the main political

4 parties, the SDA and SDS being the principal ones. That's right, isn't

5 it, at least in those parts, in that area? The HDZ wasn't present there

6 because there were very few Croats living in the area. So let me ask you

7 this: The deterioration of all these relationships, mutual doubts,

8 suspicions, fanning the flames of the conflict in fact was triggered by

9 political events and the decisions made to -- for Bosnia and Herzegovina

10 to secede from Yugoslavia. Wasn't that how the civil war in Bosnia began

11 in fact?

12 A. Well, I really don't know how to answer that question. I'm not a

13 politician. Politics is not something I know about. All I did happen to

14 notice was that the Serbs' relationships towards the Muslims began to

15 change in 1992 except for one killing that took place or rather two

16 killings that took place between Konjevic Polje and Kravica. Otherwise,

17 there were no other problems in the municipality. Or at least I didn't

18 notice them because I lived in that kind of environment.

19 Q. Well, did you think that Bosnia had to separate, secede from

20 Yugoslavia at all or was it normal to your mind that Bosnia was a part of

21 Yugoslavia?

22 JUDGE MAY: He's not a politician. You asks all the witnesses

23 these questions. Most of them have no idea at all. You can address us

24 about it in due course and you can talk about the politics in due course.

25 We will adjourn now. Half past ten.

Page 20326

1 Witness B-1070, could you please be back in 20 minutes. During

2 that time and during the time you're giving your evidence, don't speak to

3 anybody else about it until it's over and that does include the members of

4 the Prosecution team.

5 We will adjourn now.

6 --- Recess taken at 10.30 a.m.

7 --- On resuming at 10.58 a.m.

8 JUDGE MAY: We've considered the time you should have for this

9 witness. We consider it on the basis that he is a live witness and

10 therefore we don't consider it on the basis of the half hour or so which

11 the Prosecution took. We notice that the estimate, it's only an estimate,

12 was one of three hours, but we think that that is probably about right in

13 this case and that they would have taken in chief had he given evidence

14 live about an hour and a half, and accordingly, you should have an hour

15 and a half yourself, which on my mathematics would give you an additional

16 40 minutes if you require it.

17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well, Mr. May.

18 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

19 Q. So we agreed that up until the end of 1991, according to your own

20 statement, there were -- there was no hostility of the Serbs towards

21 Muslims, that things started deteriorating rapidly in the first quarter,

22 shall we say, of 1992; is that right?

23 A. Yes. That is what I claim, because really in the part of town in

24 which I lived, up until then there had been no hostilities between the two

25 groups.

Page 20327

1 Q. Very well. Since you say that you were not involved in politics,

2 that you did not follow political developments, you simply felt that

3 things had got worse at that time.

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. I wish to draw your attention, gentlemen, that that was the period

6 of time when Cutileiro's plan fell through and when the independence of

7 Bosnia and Herzegovina was proclaimed on the basis of that illegal

8 referendum, et cetera, et cetera.

9 So this witness, who was not involved in politics, can serve very

10 well to highlight the real reasons.

11 Tell me, Witness, please, before these events of the 17th of

12 April, do you know that in the village of Hranca, which is in the

13 immediate vicinity, an ambush was set for a column of cadets withdrawing

14 from Rajlovac and passing along that road and that they were fired upon in

15 this ambush and that a large number of drivers and cadets were the target

16 of that ambush and that the consequences were very serious? Do you

17 remember that? This is an event which I assume could not have occurred

18 without you noticing it.

19 A. I think that you are misinformed and that didn't happen at all.

20 Q. Oh, I see. It didn't happen at all. Very well.

21 And I have information here that precisely after that particular

22 event, an armoured motorised company of the JNA came from Sehovici, a

23 company that was stationed in Sehovici. They came with the task of

24 disarming both Serbs and Muslims. They looked for the organisers of the

25 ambush and demanded a surrender of weapons. Do you remember that?

Page 20328

1 A. No, because it didn't happen. That didn't happen, and I don't

2 remember that.

3 Q. Very well. Since you're testifying to the effect that several

4 hundred people were killed in the events that occurred around that time,

5 that only 400 of you were sent for an exchange and the rest were killed

6 according to you; is that right?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. How many people were killed?

9 A. In my estimate, and that is my alone, no one else's, that in the

10 events in the period between the 10th and 14th or 15th of May, in the gym

11 alone and around it, about 600 to 700 men were killed.

12 Q. Very well. Because I really have no information about that. Do

13 you know where this enormous number of people were buried?

14 A. You would have to ask that of the Serbian authorities in Bratunac.

15 I would also like those bodies to be found and to be given a dignified

16 burial, because among them there are many of my relatives and hundreds of

17 my friends and acquaintances.

18 Q. So you're claiming that they were killed, but you don't know where

19 they were buried and it is not known where they were buried. Very well.

20 As according to my information this didn't occur, you were all transported

21 to Sarajevo and exchanged.

22 Then according to your assessment, what was the criteria on the

23 basis of which 400 of you were selected for the exchange and the rest

24 killed?

25 A. The 400 of us were not selected on the basis of criteria to be

Page 20329

1 exchanged. In my judgement during the killing an order must have come

2 from above to stop the killing and to allow the men to live to be

3 exchanged. Otherwise, had it not been for that, they would have ended up

4 like the men from Zvornik, Visegrad, and many other places where not a

5 single surviving witness remains.

6 Q. Tell me, please, did you personally see those killings?

7 A. Mr. Milosevic, it is very hard for me even to remember and think

8 of those events. Unfortunately, I saw hundreds of them being killed.

9 Tens in the hall of the elementary school. I saw eyes popping out from

10 shots at the back of the head. I saw brains splattered. And we were

11 asked to wipe them away with our T-shirts and to carry them. I saw bodies

12 in front of the hall of men from Srebrenica who were executed on the first

13 night.

14 Q. So you saw all this with your own eyes?

15 A. Yes, I did. And not just I but 400 live witnesses who will also

16 confirm this.

17 Q. Very well. Since you eyewitnessed all this, who did it?

18 A. It was done by a certain group of five men who executed all the

19 killings that I saw in the hall of the Vuk Karadzic elementary school.

20 Q. And who was that group?

21 A. They called each other by nicknames. One was Bane, another

22 Makedonac, another Dragan, and I don't remember the names of the other

23 two, or rather their nicknames.

24 Q. So these five men killed all those other men?

25 A. Yes, those five men killed the men in the hall. Now, who was

Page 20330

1 doing the killing outside, I really don't know, but these five men killed

2 all those men that I saw being killed in the hall. They were the ones who

3 did the torturing.

4 Q. Tell me, among the local leadership, who did you see while you

5 were there in detention and when you were being taken away? Did you see

6 any of the municipal leaders? Did you see any officials, Serbs, Muslims,

7 or any one of them?

8 A. In the -- Mr. Deronjic sent us from the stadium to the gym. In

9 front of the gym I saw Mr. Deronjic, Mr. Simic, and some other local

10 Serbs. I didn't see any of the Muslims because the authorities were Serb

11 at the time.

12 Q. And what was Deronjic?

13 A. I think he was the president of the SDS in Bratunac.

14 Q. I see he was president of the party?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. And who was president of the municipality at the time?

17 A. I think it was -- in the period prior to the 17th of April, the

18 president of the municipality was a Muslim. But they left like the

19 others. He left like the others. Now, who was president just then, I

20 really don't know, because the elected official authorities had already

21 left Bratunac. All that remain was the bare-handed population.

22 Q. Just one matter. Since you explained that you did not take part

23 in any of these attacks or killings that I referred to but you were a

24 member of the 2nd Corps, weren't you?

25 A. Yes.

Page 20331

1 Q. From when were you a member of the 2nd Corps?

2 A. From the 3rd of March, 1993.

3 Q. I see. The 3rd of March, 1993.

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. And what did the 2nd Corps cover, what area?

6 A. The Tuzla region area.

7 Q. And does Srebrenica, Bratunac, and all these places come under

8 that area?

9 A. You know that those areas were cut off and that units of the 2nd

10 Corps couldn't go there. They held positions around Tuzla, Kladanj.

11 Q. And who did the units in Srebrenica belong to?

12 A. I really don't know.

13 Q. On page 3, paragraph 3 of your statement, you say that the

14 situation changed, that you noticed at the entrance to your settlement

15 certain checkpoints, and at those checkpoints were there any reserve

16 policemen, both Serbs and Muslims?

17 A. Just a moment, please. Let me find it.

18 Q. Page 3, paragraph 3.

19 A. I can't find that on page 3.

20 MR. NICE: Which statement is the accused referring to, the first

21 or the second statement? And if he would give a page or paragraph number

22 if he's using the handwritten paragraph numbers, I'll find the

23 corresponding paragraph in the B/C/S version for the witness.

24 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

25 Q. Is it true that this reserve police force consisted of both Serbs

Page 20332

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13 English transcripts.

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Page 20333

1 and Muslims at the time?

2 A. I don't remember saying in any statement that there were

3 checkpoints. The only checkpoint that I remember manned by reserve

4 policemen was the checkpoint at Kravica. As for the reserve police force

5 in those days, there were both Muslims and Serbs.

6 JUDGE MAY: We've got the passage now. In the English, it's on

7 page 3, and it is paragraph 11.

8 JUDGE KWON: ICTY statement.

9 MR. NICE: It's the ICTY statement and paragraph 11 of the ICTY

10 statement can be found by the witness on a page perhaps the usher would

11 help him, that has registry number 02132888 on the top right-hand corner

12 there are two numbers printed on mine but it is the large figure 888. And

13 it is, I think, the middle paragraph beginning with the word "Pamtim da".

14 I think.

15 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please. No microphone.

16 JUDGE MAY: Microphone. Yes. You've got that, have you?

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I've found it, Your Honour.

18 JUDGE MAY: Let the witness finish.

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] When I referred to a checkpoint,

20 this applies to a particular date. It was that evening or that morning on

21 the Konjevic Polje to Bratunac road. There was an ambush in which two

22 Muslims were killed and one was wounded. And as I went to work every

23 morning along that road, that day I couldn't pass. I had to make a

24 detour, because that morning at the entrances to all the villages between

25 Bratunac and Konjevic Polje there were barricades.

Page 20334

1 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

2 Q. Very well. But you say already towards the end of the next

3 paragraph that was the reason for the Minister of police Avdo Hebib from

4 Sarajevo to visit the area. From this time onwards, checkpoints increased

5 along with an increase in tension. Is that right? That is what you say

6 at the end of that same paragraph.

7 A. Yes. There was a permanent checkpoint at Kravica, and it was

8 manned by the reserve police force, and it is true that not only did

9 Avdo Hebib come to Bratunac, but I think Mr. Zepin, Mr. Ganic, and others

10 came.

11 Q. I want to ask you about that. This is September 1991, isn't it?

12 A. I assume that was the date.

13 Q. And did on that occasion members of the Presidency of Bosnia and

14 Herzegovina, Nikola Koljevic and Ejub Ganic come together?

15 A. Yes. They even held a joint speech at the stadium which was

16 attended I think by 5.000, both Serbs and Muslims, who greeted with

17 applause this speech and this calming of tensions.

18 Q. Tell me, on that occasion in Bratunac, Kajici, Kravica, on the 4th

19 of September, 1991, when Vitomir Zepin, Deputy Minister of the Interior

20 and Avdo Hebib and Enver Saric, the chief of the security service from

21 Tuzla, did they all come just before Ganic and Koljevic? So the event

22 attracted a great deal of attention, and obviously efforts were made to

23 calm the situation down.

24 A. As I said, I can't remember the exact date, but I do know that

25 these officials came and that efforts were made to appease the situation.

Page 20335

1 Q. Very well. Were you aware of the barricades that were put up then

2 to the approaches to Bratunac at villages of Glogova, Hranca, and Pervani?

3 A. Yes, I was aware of barricades being put up to the entrance to

4 each village in Bratunac municipality between Konjevic Polje and Bratunac.

5 So not only Muslim villages but also Serbian villages, Derepuca [phoen],

6 Kra -- Kajici, Kravica, et cetera.

7 Q. The barricades I'm mentioning in Glogova, Hranca and Pervani, were

8 they Muslim barricades?

9 A. Yes, they were.

10 Q. Is it true in those localities vehicles of public transport were

11 stopped and passengers, Serbs, mistreated and thrown out?

12 A. On that day?

13 Q. No. I'm talking about a practice at those checkpoints that you

14 yourself said were put up by Muslims.

15 A. I'm answering you whether you mean on that day, because the

16 barricades were there for only one day. Until the police from Tuzla

17 arrived, the road was closed and transport went along

18 Bratunac-Polom-Zvornik, so round about that way.

19 Q. And is it true that the commander of the Pervani barricade was

20 Mehmedalija Selimovic, who is well known because he boasted about that had

21 attended training in Croatia?

22 A. Mr. Milosevic, I'm telling you no one could pass any further than

23 the first barricade. Traffic was stopped. I can answer your question

24 because I passed through those barricades and I saw the people manning

25 them. I think they were all removed about 2.00, 3.00, and I really don't

Page 20336

1 know who was in charge of them.

2 Q. Very well, Mr. 1070. I believe you if you say you don't know.

3 You really don't know. But is it true that people were intimidated then

4 and that they started moving out? Is that true?

5 A. I didn't notice that.

6 Q. All right. You say on page 3, it's easy for you to find because

7 it's open in front of you, you say something about an incident where in

8 the vicinity of the municipal building you noticed about 20 soldiers who

9 were firing into the air to intimidate people. You said those were

10 conscripts under the command of a man called Redjo.

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. This Redjo is also a Muslim, isn't he?

13 A. Yes. He was a JNA officer.

14 Q. Correct. JNA officer. And he had come to collect military

15 records.

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. And that was in keeping with the decision of the federal

18 government, that the army should take over military records. You know

19 that, don't you?

20 A. Really, Mr. Milosevic. I don't know anything about those

21 decisions, and I had absolutely no interest in them, whichever government

22 had taken them. I don't know in keeping with what that was done, but I

23 know that the people were against it and didn't allow the documentation to

24 be taken over.

25 Q. Anyway, an incident happened then because activists at the SDA

Page 20337

1 gathered civilians and didn't allow the army to come in, and those

2 soldiers were under the command of an officer who was a Muslim.

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. It was not an inter-ethnic clash, was it?

5 A. No, it wasn't.

6 Q. And you say they had come to take the names of conscripts so that

7 they could send them call-up papers for the war. Do you know that the

8 names were needed so that they could be called up into the war? How do

9 you know that?

10 A. That's my opinion, and that is shared by many others. I heard

11 rumours about that from the police. It doesn't mean that I can't be

12 mistaken.

13 Q. Well, nobody is immune to mistakes, but we've just established

14 that 20 soldiers who had come to take over the records were under the

15 command of a Muslim. They had all come to collect military records in

16 order to send call-up papers for the war. What war are you talking about?

17 A. The war in Croatia.

18 Q. How many people were organised on that occasion to prevent this

19 unit commanded by Redjo from taking over the military records?

20 A. I really don't know whether it was organised or not, because I had

21 arrived towards the end. Until 3.00 or thereabouts, I worked, and when I

22 arrived in Bratunac around 4.00, it was already ending. I don't know how

23 many people there were. Perhaps about a thousand.

24 Q. Well, I have information that the number of people gathered was

25 between 2.000 and 4.000?

Page 20338

1 A. I don't know.

2 Q. Any case, you can't confirm this piece of information?

3 A. I cannot confirm what?

4 Q. You say there were several hundred people.

5 A. It's a big difference between that and 2.000 to 4.000.

6 Q. And you didn't know on what basis, on the basis of which decision

7 the army was going to take over military records?

8 A. I really didn't know, nor was I interested.

9 Q. And these activists of the SDA were in the way of the army's

10 efforts and prevented them from taking the records.

11 A. I wasn't on any side. I wasn't an activist of the SDA.

12 Q. In any case, the army gave up and left without ever taking these

13 records.

14 A. What I heard was that some sort of agreement was reached with

15 regard to that military documentation and that they -- these records were

16 removed from the municipality.

17 Q. It follows that on the 30th of August, 1991, the leadership of the

18 SDA organised this protest in order to prevent the army from taking over

19 the military records, and the Serbs were protesting because somebody was

20 preventing the implementation of official decisions.

21 A. You should ask people who know. They should testify about this.

22 All I know is that the army troops came to take over the military records

23 and that the people were against it.

24 Q. All right. Is it true that as a result of that whole situation in

25 Bratunac the presidents of the SDA and the SDS, that means both the Muslim

Page 20339

1 and the Serb parties, issues a joint statement to calm the population down

2 and promised that everything would be all right?

3 A. Well, those joint statements were not rare. They issued that kind

4 of thing very often. They made promises, issued guarantees trying to

5 appease the people. They might have issued that one as well.

6 Q. On the same page, 3, paragraph 6, you talk about December 1991

7 when a convoy stopped a convoy including military trucks owned by the JNA

8 towing artillery and you say at that point in time Serbs were arming

9 themselves?

10 A. Well, you couldn't help arriving at that conclusion. Everybody in

11 that situation would have thought the same thing.

12 Q. As far as you know, at that point did Muslims already have

13 paramilitary formations? Were they already armed?

14 A. What sort of arms are you talking about?

15 Q. That's what you say in your statement, but let's move on. You

16 mention artillery. Was this artillery also distributed to the Serbs?

17 A. I don't know. Do you think that this artillery was brought and

18 given to the Muslims?

19 Q. It wasn't given to anyone. It was a convoy of the JNA passing

20 through.

21 A. I really don't know, and I can't say anything. I cannot say that

22 Bratunac had any military or paramilitary Muslim formations. Because I

23 had Serb friends, I don't know -- I'm not sure, and I don't believe that

24 anybody would give me any information about any sort of distribution of

25 weapons. I don't know whether it was going on. At any rate, I was never

Page 20340

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12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.

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Page 20341

1 offered a rifle, ammunition, or anything of that kind. Whether

2 paramilitary or military formations existed, I don't know.

3 Q. You know nothing?

4 A. I know nothing. I told you, I lived in a neighbourhood which was

5 very evenly mixed and where there was not a single meeting about the

6 distribution of weapons. It was impossible to hold anything like that.

7 Q. And you know nothing about the arming of Muslim paramilitary

8 formations in surrounding villages either?

9 A. No. All I know is that when weapons were confiscated from these

10 villages because by the 10th of May all the weapons had been seized and

11 the population expelled, none of these weapons that were seized were

12 automatic.

13 Q. Does that mean that before the 10th of May the villagers there

14 were armed?

15 A. No. That's what you are saying. I can't give you the exact date.

16 It might have been the 21st or the 23rd of May. I saw a poster with a

17 proclamation outside of my house, signed by somebody named

18 General Milosevic. It informed the people that a seizure of weapons was

19 under way for Muslims.

20 Q. Do you know anything about the call-up of military conscripts

21 towards the end of 1991 and the beginning of 1992 for military training in

22 Croatia?

23 A. No one from Bratunac went.

24 Q. And you know nothing about it?

25 A. No, because I had no links with those villages. I just went to

Page 20342

1 work.

2 Q. But on page 4, you say that in the Crisis Staff formed by the SDS

3 including Miroslav Deronjic, president of the SDS, Ljubisa Simic from the

4 SDS leadership. There was also Dragisa Loncarevic and someone named

5 Dragan referred to everyone as Kinez. And you know nothing about the

6 establishment of the SDA, but you know about the activities of the Serbian

7 Democratic Party.

8 A. That's not what I said. I said I knew who was the president of

9 the SDA. I knew who the president of the municipality of Bratunac was.

10 And I know this as well. I know the president of the municipality was

11 this gentleman from --

12 Q. What is it that you didn't say? I'm quoting from your statement.

13 You say, "Members of the municipal Crisis Staff in 1992 were the

14 following: Deronjic, Simic, Loncarevic, and this Dragan."

15 A. Yes, but you said that I stated somewhere that I was not familiar

16 with the SDA structures in the municipality of Bratunac. I don't remember

17 ever saying anything of the sort. I'm just talking in this particular

18 paragraph about people from the SDS. As far as the SDA is concerned, I

19 can tell you who was in their structures.

20 Q. What I'm asking you is this: Can you tell us who the members were

21 of the Crisis Staff of the SDA?

22 A. I don't know that there was a Crisis Staff of the SDA.

23 Q. You are claiming it didn't exist?

24 A. I didn't say that. I don't know that it existed. I know the

25 president of the party in the last days before the war was Dzevad Gusic.

Page 20343

1 I know the president of the municipality was Nijaz Dubicic. I know that

2 the deputy chief at the MUP was Senad Hodzic, and I can enumerate them as

3 well as I enumerated the SDS people. Whether they had a Crisis Staff or

4 not, I don't know.

5 Q. And you know nothing about clandestine Muslim paramilitary

6 formations or their activities, and you claim that this attack on the

7 column of cadets withdrawing from Rajlovac on the 14th of April is my

8 invention.

9 JUDGE MAY: He has answered this question.

10 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

11 Q. Do you know anything, since you are talking about early 1992, do

12 you know anything the meeting of the representatives of the SDA from

13 Bratunac, Srebrenica, Zvornik, Vlasenica? That was early February 1992.

14 That means long before the outbreak of the conflict. And the meeting

15 discussed preparations for the war. That is another thing written in this

16 book by Besim Ibisevic. You say you didn't read it. I'm just asking you

17 whether you know about these events.

18 A. I don't remember that these meetings were held at all, because I

19 didn't think that they were important. I didn't think SDS meetings were

20 important either. Maybe these meetings were held in secret. Maybe

21 ordinary people couldn't even know about it. Because as far as I can see,

22 you get your information probably from people who attended these meetings

23 and who were placed far above me.

24 Q. Tell me, since you know, that with increasing frequency there was

25 a polarisation going on at the time. Do you know how it came about that

Page 20344

1 separate police forces, Serb and Muslims -- Muslim were formed in town?

2 A. Oh, you mean the division of the MUP in Bratunac.

3 Q. That's what I mean. How did it happen? Was it decided at the

4 meeting of the Municipal Assembly?

5 A. I don't know at which session this decision to divide the MUP was

6 taken and on the basis of which document, but I know that all of a sudden

7 two MUPs, two police forces, came into being in Bratunac.

8 Q. And what do you know about their functioning, the two MUPs, one

9 Serb, one Muslim?

10 A. I have no idea how they functioned. They probably didn't function

11 at all.

12 Q. All right. Do you remember that under those circumstances when

13 tensions were already high, do you remember, because you must have read

14 newspapers and followed events, that the Presidency of the Bosnia and

15 Herzegovina, without any representatives of the Serb population took the

16 decision to mobilise the army, the police, the forces of the Civil

17 Defence, all these structures being still within the federal system?

18 A. I don't know anything about that. All I know is that nobody

19 mobilised me to either side. I don't know whether there were any

20 Territorial Defence units mobilised in Bratunac.

21 Q. Well, how else could this 2nd Corps have been established, this

22 force, whatever you call it, Green Berets, the patriotic people's league

23 or whatever? How do you explain that?

24 A. Well, probably the people on the other side were wiser. They

25 didn't believe what we believed, and they had prepared for the war, and

Page 20345

1 they didn't pay the price that we paid.

2 Q. Do you know that Izetbegovic on the 12th of April ordered an

3 all-out and unprovoked attack on all barracks of the JNA in the territory

4 of Bosnia and Herzegovina?

5 A. Well, Izetbegovic never informed me of anything, nor did he ask my

6 advice.

7 Q. I'm talking about a well-known event, about an order for attack.

8 Do you know anything about it?

9 A. No.

10 Q. Do you remember that on the 6th of May, that means after those

11 numerous local provocations and ambushes on local roads, a major armed

12 attack was undertaken by Muslim formations on one of compact Serb

13 populated areas?

14 A. Which populated area?

15 Q. A hamlet of Bljecevo village, populated by 532 Muslims and only

16 171 Serbs. That happened on the 6th of May, 1992, in a Muslim village.

17 Their Muslim-organised forces killed 3 Serbs?

18 A. Thank you for reminding me that it was the 6th of May because I

19 really couldn't remember the date. I know that a killing occurred, but

20 what I know about is the killing of a family of one policeman from

21 Bratunac, Branimir Jovanovic.

22 Q. Do you know that the 6th of May is an Orthodox religious holiday,

23 Djurdjevdan, the patron saint's day for many Serbs?

24 A. I am aware of the holiday, but one thing is not clear about this

25 murder.

Page 20346

1 JUDGE MAY: Let the witness finish.

2 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

3 Q. Yes. Please go on.

4 A. I don't know who committed this killing. I would really have to

5 be 100 per cent sure before pointing my finger at anyone. But I know that

6 this policeman, Branislav or Branimir Jovanovic, remained on the side of

7 the Federation of Bosnia and Herzegovina after the division of the MUP,

8 and I know from very reliable sources that Mr. Jovanovic worked for the

9 state security of Bosnia and Herzegovina. And what is most surprising and

10 curious to me, the war in Bosnia and Herzegovina had not yet started in

11 many areas. And there was never any investigation of that murder. And

12 even today, five or six years after the war, nobody ever took the trouble

13 to investigate that murder, because as far as Brano Jovanovic is

14 concerned, he was a remarkable man, and I don't see why Muslims should

15 kill the family of a man who remained to serve the state security of

16 Bosnia and Herzegovina. But I'm not claiming otherwise, either.

17 But you should also know and emphasise that a mass attack was

18 carried out later in Bljecevo. It was shelled from all sorts of artillery

19 positions on the hills around Bratunac. So instead of conducting an

20 investigation, they carried out an attack on Bljecevo village.

21 Q. After the killing of those three Serbs.

22 A. I know about two. I don't know about the third one.

23 Q. What about the 27th of May in Konjevic Polje? Do you know that

24 the Muslim extremists set up an ambush there which intercepted a column of

25 freight vehicles, heavy-duty vehicles returning from Zvornik? And they

Page 20347

1 were carrying bauxite ore and that five drivers who were Serbs were

2 skilled on that particular occasion?

3 A. The period round about the 27th of May, is that what you said?

4 Well, unfortunately, I wasn't able to take account of my own family let

5 alone the columns and alleged attacks and the destruction of those

6 columns. On the 27th of May, in fact, I was in Visoko and was

7 recuperating from some of the injuries that I had received -- that I had

8 received, and my psychological traumas, from my days in the Bratunac camp

9 and at Pale. So everything that happened after the 10th of May, because

10 that was when I was shut up in the camp, incarcerated there, I cannot know

11 anything about events subsequent to that, nor can I say anything about

12 them.

13 JUDGE MAY: Now, Mr. Milosevic, your time is up. You've had two

14 minutes over, but you can ask a final question.

15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, all right, Mr. May. Then I'll

16 have to skip over many of the questions I have here. I have the lists of

17 Serbs who were killed in all these villages. So there's no point in going

18 into that now. And there's no point in me asking for additional time.

19 That is quite clear to me.

20 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic. Mr. Milosevic, you said you

21 wanted to ask some questions about Serbs being killed. To what point, to

22 what end, may I ask? What would you be seeking to show from that?

23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] From the last question. Well, what

24 I want to say is that I want to ask the witness whether he knows about the

25 fact that throughout that territory, this broad territory around Bratunac

Page 20348

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Page 20349

1 and Srebrenica, covering about 1.000 square kilometres in all, that the

2 Serbs were pushed into just 25 to 30 square kilometres and that all the

3 Serbian villages except two in the area of Bratunac were razed to the

4 ground and the population killed. That is the say the inhabitants who had

5 not managed to flee to Bratunac or across the Drina River into Serbia.

6 JUDGE MAY: Before you answer, let us have it clarified. When is

7 it suggested that this happened so the witness can answer it?

8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Everything happened in 1992 and

9 1993, Mr. May. And, for example, I can tell you that for the Orthodox

10 Christmas, the Orthodox Christmas therefore, that is to say in January

11 1993, once again one of the most bloody crimes were committed precisely in

12 that area, and the religious Orthodox holidays are quite customarily used

13 for crimes to be perpetrated again the Serbs living in the area.

14 JUDGE MAY: Just a moment.

15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] So --

16 JUDGE MAY: I take it this was after the 17th of April, 1992.

17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, I can't ask him anything about

18 what actually happened in Bratunac because you say that after that, he has

19 nothing to do with it.

20 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

21 Q. Now, as you learnt about these events from various people but not

22 from those who had taken part in the events themselves, you yourself state

23 that on the 10th of May, you were expelled from your house under threat of

24 arms; is that right?

25 A. On the 10th of May, not only I myself was expelled from my home

Page 20350

1 but so were all those who were in the hamlets or various districts around

2 my area and Bratunac too.

3 Q. All right. Tell me who expelled you from your homes on -- at

4 gunpoint and all the rest of them on the 10th of May?

5 A. I was expelled by the paramilitary formations, the Territorial

6 Defence of Bratunac municipality as well as the Yugoslav People's Army who

7 attended all these goings-on with their APCs.

8 Q. Well, I don't suppose you want to say that the JNA soldiers

9 expelled you from your houses. Did they?

10 JUDGE MAY: He's not said that. He has said that it was people

11 who said they were from the Belgrade MUP. But you now have had an extra

12 few minutes.

13 Yes, Mr. Kay.

14 Questioned by Mr. Kay:

15 Q. Witness, you've made two statements, the first dated the 29th of

16 June, 1992, which was given to the Ministry of Interior for the Republic

17 of Bosnia-Herzegovina; is that right?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Were you told to put anything into that statement that was not

20 true or was not of your own knowledge?

21 A. In the statement, I state quite exactly the events that I saw

22 myself, and I also speak about events that I heard about. But nobody told

23 me what I should state or not state in the statement.

24 Q. You gave a second statement dated the 10th of October, 1998 to the

25 Prosecutors of the Tribunal. Were you told to put anything into that

Page 20351

1 statement that wasn't true or wasn't what you knew about?

2 A. No. Nobody advised me as to what I was to state.

3 Q. We're going to look at both of those statements now, so if the

4 Judges would have both statements, and I'm be obviously using the English

5 language version, before them. And if the witness could have both

6 statements in his own language before him.

7 In your evidence today, you said that there were only two

8 paramilitary units in Bratunac, and you said that that was the Eagles and

9 Arkan's men. Do you remember that?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. If we just look at your statement of the 29th of June, 1992,

12 paragraph 1, you mention in that statement and for a number of pages

13 thereafter that in Bratunac, on the 17th of April, 1992, were Seselj's

14 men?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Is there any deference between Seselj's men and the Eagles and

17 Arkan's men?

18 A. Between the White Eagles and Seselj's men there is no difference.

19 But between Arkan's men and Seselj's men, yes, there is an enormous

20 difference. They were different commanders commanding the men.

21 Q. In both those statements, you identify various local people who

22 were working with Seselj's men. Is that because you knew those people?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. In your statement of the 29th of June, 1992, you don't mention

25 Arkan's men being present until the 10th of May of 1992. Paragraph 17 of

Page 20352

1 that statement in the English.

2 MR. NICE: Page 7 at the top in the original B/C/S version with

3 Registry number 2875 in the top right-hand corner, 2875.

4 MR. KAY:

5 Q. So what is the position? What did Arkan's men, do you say,

6 enter Bratunac?

7 A. Arkan's men and Seselj's men, well, perhaps I didn't say. I

8 didn't give the title of the units, but Arkan's men and Seselj's men, when

9 I say that I meant the paramilitary formations who were present in

10 Bratunac as of the 17th of April. Up until about the 20th of May when

11 they withdrew from Bratunac and then again from the 20 something of April

12 until the 10th of May when I was deported from Bratunac.

13 Q. When you describe the local people being involved with Seselj's

14 men, the Eagles, were they working with them as a joint group, force

15 together?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Likewise with Arkan's men, when you mention the local people were

18 they working with them as a joint group?

19 A. Actions within the cleansing of villages around Bratunac were

20 perpetrated by the paramilitary formations and the Territorial Defence

21 which was there in a regular fashion, mobilised in the regular way and set

22 up. The army of the Serbs was set up in that way. I assume that that's

23 what they would be called. But both Seselj's men and Arkan's men took

24 part in the operations together.

25 Q. In your statement of the 10th of October, 1998, and I'm looking at

Page 20353

1 page 4, paragraph 19, you mention the Serbian paramilitary forces being

2 replaced by the regular JNA army. And in paragraph 20, you mention the

3 Drina Corps. That is in your statement to the Tribunal investigators; is

4 that right?

5 A. Could you give me the page, please, where that is?

6 Q. You can take it from me that it is right, that I'm not

7 misrepresenting.

8 MR. NICE: He's entitled to see it. On page bottom right-hand

9 corner number 4 of the second statement Registry number at the top

10 right-hand corner will be either 889 or 868.

11 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, may I be of

12 assistance to the witness. It is page 4, the last paragraph.

13 MR. KAY:

14 Q. In your statement of the 29th of June 1992, and we will look at

15 page 2, paragraphs 3 and 4, you mention there the Semberija Corps

16 consisting of military reservists, and you mention in paragraph 4 the TO

17 and the TO flag being put on a building.

18 Now, when you refer to the TO, do you refer to the JNA? What do

19 you mean?

20 A. I mean the local Serb formations which were mobilised.

21 Q. So the local army and not the regular JNA would be right to

22 describe any military activity that you saw; is that right?

23 A. No. No. You asked me, sir, what I meant when I say -- said

24 Territorial Defence, and I said that Territorial Defence to me implies the

25 local inhabitants. I did not say that the army did not take part or the

Page 20354

1 army of Yugoslavia was not there. It was there together and took part

2 with the Territorial Defence, the paramilitary formations, and so on.

3 Q. Why in your statement then of the 29th of June, 1992, did you not

4 mention the regular JNA? Why is it to the investigators of the Tribunal

5 is it that you mention the regular JNA? Why is there a difference between

6 the two statements describing which forces were there?

7 A. In the statement of 1992 as well, I mentioned the Yugoslav

8 People's Army, because to my mind, I think that -- I think they

9 misunderstood me or you misunderstood me. When I say regular JNA, I meant

10 the forces that came from outside, and that was the so-called Semberija

11 Corps, whereas when I say Territorial Defence, I meant the local Serbs who

12 were mobilised from the municipality of Bratunac. So it's quite correct.

13 I know that for the Semberija Corps, I considered them to be

14 forces of the Yugoslav People's Army because they weren't locals from the

15 area. I never came across regular -- actually, when I say "regular

16 soldiers," they were children up to the ages of 18 or 20 who were doing

17 their military service. And the forces who were here were those which had

18 been mobilised.

19 Q. I want to deal now with the part of your evidence where you said

20 that you were arrested by police from Belgrade, and in your statement on

21 the 29th of June, 1992, that's paragraph 12. And in your statement on the

22 10th of October, 1998, that's paragraph 25.

23 MR. NICE: I think it appropriate that the witness should have a

24 chance to look at these paragraphs in detail. Paragraph 12 of the first

25 statement by my calculation, it's a little bit -- to be quite precise

Page 20355

1 starts at the foot of page 4 of the B/C/S of the first statement, four

2 lines up from the bottom, and the -- the witness might like to have a

3 look at that and have a chance to consider the points being made by

4 Mr. Kay. Paragraph 25 of the second statement can be found I think on the

5 bottom right-hand corner, page 5 of it. I'd ask that the witness be

6 satisfied that he's got them before him.

7 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Kay. What is the question?

8 MR. KAY: I hope the witness has got the paragraphs now.

9 Q. If we look at the paragraph 12 of the 29th of June, 1992, it says

10 that the event there of your arrest happened on the 26th of April, 1992,

11 but in the statement of the 10th of October, 1998, it says it's the 30th

12 of April. Can you explain the different dates in two different

13 statements?

14 A. The statement given to the investigators of The Hague Tribunal was

15 given seven or eight years later after the first statement that was given

16 straight away after I arrived in the Tuzla canton.

17 During my testimony here today, I drew attention to the fact that

18 I might be mistaken when quoting dates, or I might forget a name, for

19 example. But I can never forget the actual event. And it is quite true

20 that I was arrested on the 26th of April, taken away from my house by

21 people who introduced themselves as being members of the police from

22 Belgrade, the MUP of Belgrade.

23 Q. So as far as you're concerned, we should take the date

24 26th -- 29th of June, 1992, as being the more accurate statement; is that

25 right?

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Page 20357

1 JUDGE MAY: Yes. I think that's a very generalised comment. The

2 witness can't deal with that. We've heard his evidence.

3 MR. KAY:

4 Q. In that statement of the 29th of June, you say that, "The police

5 surrounded my house," and in the statement of the 10th of October, you say

6 you were arrested at a neighbour's house. Is there any difference between

7 the two, and if so, why?

8 A. Please, let me just find that portion where I say that I was

9 arrested in a neighbour's house. In both statements, I say quite

10 specifically that I was sitting in my neighbour's yard, and my neighbours

11 were Jamb. And I saw three or four cars come to my house, surround my

12 house. And as I was -- the house I was in is just 10 metres away from my

13 own house. I went into my own yard and surrendered myself to them.

14 Q. In the statement of the 29th of June you say that two bullets were

15 fired so, "It looked as though I had been killed." But in the statement

16 of the 10th of October, you say that the two shots were fired and, "They

17 told me that they had killed my wife and children." Can you explain the

18 difference there is?

19 A. After I got into the car, one of the cars, one car followed, the

20 car I was in, and in front of my house you could hear several gunshots.

21 And in the car, when I was in the car, they told me that they had killed

22 my family and that it was my turn next.

23 Now, at that same time, from the car I was in a man fired two

24 shots, and they told my family that I had been killed and that when they

25 leave they can come and pick up my body.

Page 20358

1 And that was one of the most terrible moments I have ever

2 experienced in my whole life, because for several hours I was convinced

3 that my whole family, my parents, my sister, my mother, and so on, were

4 all killed.

5 Q. So you're saying four shots were fired rather than two; is that

6 right?

7 A. No. I didn't say that either two or four shots were fired. I

8 said that several shots could be heard from my house, and from the car I

9 was in, two shots were fired. And they explained to my family that I had

10 been killed, and the other shots that were fired, they said to me that my

11 family had been killed, including my wife and children.

12 Q. In your statement of the 10th of October, 1998, it's the next

13 paragraph, at paragraph 26, you say after your release that you stayed at

14 home for the next ten days all the time. In your statement of the 29th of

15 June, 1992, if we go to page 7, paragraphs 13 to 17, there is a large

16 number of events and details of events happening in the Bratunac area

17 between the 30th of April and the 10th of May.

18 A. Part of the unit of the Territorial Defence or, rather, part of

19 the unit which was specially set up in the Bratunac municipality for

20 purposes of that kind was called the Diversionary Reconnaissance Unit and

21 many of my neighbours were members of that unit. And every day I saw them

22 go into action, go off into operation. And I always trembled, wondering

23 whether they would come back at all, whether they might be killed or

24 wounded perhaps. So we were all afraid for them. And I heard many things

25 from them too, because very often we would be sitting around drinking

Page 20359

1 together, and they would open up and tell us things, and I learnt some

2 things later on when I was exchanged and when I was with those people.

3 And they were from all over the Bratunac municipality, and they were in

4 the camp together with me. So I learnt of the details.

5 So in no statement did I see that people in Glogova was burnt and

6 people killed or any other villages. And I stress everywhere in my

7 statements that I heard that this had happened, not that I had seen it

8 happen myself.

9 MR. KAY: Thank you. No further questions.

10 MR. NICE: Some matters arising.

11 Re-examined by Mr. Nice:

12 Q. Can we please just clarify your own observations of incoming

13 forces from Serbia? You've already spoken of the event where earlier on

14 in September you saw artillery going for the small -- going towards the

15 small Serb villages close to Bratunac. What kind of force was that

16 artillery? Because it JNA? Was it Territorial Defence? What was it?

17 A. That convoy made up of seven trucks which left in the direction of

18 Kravica belonged to the Yugoslav People's Army.

19 Q. And you've been asked about who was provided with those weapons.

20 Was there any Muslim person in that small village to be provided with

21 weapons or were those villages all Serbs?

22 A. Kravica is a large local community which comprises about ten

23 completely ethnically pure Serb villages. So in all of those villages,

24 not a single one belonging to the Kravica local community were there any

25 Muslim inhabitants. They were purely Serb villages.

Page 20360

1 Q. Turning now, then, to the takeover of Bratunac itself. You've

2 spoken of the role of the two paramilitary groups that you identified to

3 help Mr. Kay. When in addition to those troops were you first aware of

4 any regular army?

5 A. I became aware of that on the 17th of April. That was the first

6 time I saw the regular Yugoslav army that was at the meeting in Fontana,

7 the Fontana Hotel. I saw four guards in full military dress standing in

8 front of the hotel, and I suppose there were some officers there attending

9 the negotiations.

10 On the second occasion, the Yugoslav army, Yugoslav soldiers,

11 appeared sometime after the 20th of April. Yes, the 20th of April, after

12 that.

13 Q. You were challenged on this. Mr. Kay says you used the

14 Semberija Corps on one occasion and Drina Corps on another. Can you help

15 us with your knowledge of the difference between those two and explain why

16 one statement may say one thing and one another?

17 A. I did not mention anywhere that the Drina Corps was present in

18 Bratunac. As far as I remember, did -- I did say that the information

19 which was to the effect that the Muslims should surrender their arms was

20 signed by the commander of the 2nd -- the Drina Corps, the commander of

21 the Drina Corps. I did not say in actual fact that the Drina Corps was

22 present in Bratunac at all.

23 MR. NICE: Your Honour, that's to be found on paragraph 20 of the

24 witness's later statement, page 4, and indeed accords with what's there.

25 Q. You've been challenged about or asked questions about your arrest,

Page 20361

1 your first arrest and the use of gunshot to frighten you and/or your

2 family. If in the first statement you didn't mention the use made of the

3 guns to that effect, any reason for it when you made that first statement?

4 Was this matter particularly important to you or not or can't you

5 remember?

6 A. I'm quite certain that when I gave both my statements to the

7 people who took down those statements, I did mention those gunshots.

8 However, why in one statement there is something which is not in the other

9 statement, I really can't say. However, I'm quite sure that the shots

10 could be heard, were heard, and I spent one, two, perhaps three hours

11 in -- totally upset, thinking that my family had really been killed, and I

12 don't see why I should mention this in one and not the other.

13 Q. Sticking with the point that's been raised about incoming Serb

14 personnel, to use a neutral term, those special police who interrogated

15 you on that first occasion, what if anything did any of them say that

16 explained that he was from Serbia?

17 A. When I was brought into a hall, I was left to wait there for about

18 half an hour until that so-called inspector arrived from the Belgrade MUP,

19 who introduced himself as being an inspector of the Belgrade MUP. And he

20 was the person who asked me the questions. And the guards too, because

21 when I was -- during the time I spent in those premises, the inspector

22 would go out of the room and come back several times. So that the guard

23 told me --

24 Q. Oh, very well. Carry on then. I think that's -- very well. The

25 guard told you what?

Page 20362

1 A. The guard told me that the man was indeed a member of the Belgrade

2 MUP. I don't know why they introduced themselves that way, why they told

3 me that, but that's what they did tell me.

4 Q. You've been asked by Mr. Kay about the following period when you

5 say you were at home and as your first statement reveals,

6 accounting -- giving an account of what you heard. And as your second

7 statement reveals, summarising it, I think, an account that would suggest

8 up to some 200 people were killed in those early days before you were ever

9 shepherded off to the stadium and the gymnasium.

10 At that stage when you were at home but you were hearing of people

11 being killed, where to your knowledge was the regular JNA unit?

12 A. The killing began after the arrival of those, let's call them

13 special forces from the Belgrade MUP and after the return of Arkan's men

14 or, rather, Seselj's men, the paramilitaries. Whereas the forces of the

15 Yugoslav People's Army were stationed in Bratunac with their own military

16 vehicles, and they were behind the Fontana Hotel.

17 Q. You can see the Fontana Hotel in tab 4. Was anything said to you

18 by your comrades -- it can come onto the -- we can just put it on the

19 overhead projector if necessary to make sure you can see it. There.

20 Mine's available if that will save time.

21 Was anything said to you by those giving an account of the

22 killings being done in the town of Bratunac about the JNA unit that was

23 behind the Fontana Hotel intervening with the killings or trying to stop

24 people doing what they were doing?

25 A. My house is about 4 to 500 metres away from the centre of

Page 20363

1 Bratunac. So if I wasn't moving around there, my friends and neighbours

2 were. So the flow of information was so good that at each point in time

3 somebody would learn that one of the inhabitants of Bratunac were taken

4 off, never to return. The units of the Yugoslav People's Army or shall we

5 call -- at least those units that I considered to belong to the Yugoslav

6 People's Army units from their entry into town never intervened to protect

7 any of the Muslims.

8 Q. When you were then compelled with your family to leave your house,

9 unlocked for the purposes for looting, as we know, and to be taken to the

10 stadium, thence to the gymnasium of the school, what part did the JNA army

11 unit take in that process?

12 A. I only know that the JNA assisted in the cleansing of Muslim

13 villages with their armoured vehicles. They accompanied the units that

14 were cleansing the villages.

15 Q. Back to the question. When you were actually taken to the

16 stadium, and let's deal with it in this way: When you were in the stadium

17 and the men of army -- yes, army age were separated from women, children,

18 and the elderly, was the JNA unit there? If so, what part did it take in

19 that?

20 A. There were tanks around the stadium, as well as APCs. They were

21 providing security for the stadium. So they were present. They secured

22 the stadium.

23 Q. When you marched --

24 JUDGE MAY: Do you want the usher to remain?

25 MR. NICE: No, Your Honour.

Page 20364

1 JUDGE MAY: The second question is the time.

2 MR. NICE: No. But in light of the questions I must deal with

3 these matters.

4 Q. When you were taken to the gymnasium, why the JNA units involved

5 in that, shepherding, your being moved -- your move to the gymnasium?

6 A. No. We were shepherded by paramilitary units.

7 Q. When you were in the gymnasium and by your account 6 or 700 people

8 were killed, you've told us what you could hear. You tell us in your

9 statement what you could hear by way of shooting at night or in the

10 daytime. How near or far was the school from where the JNA was based even

11 assuming it wasn't on the streets as it had been when you were taken to

12 the stadium? How far away was the Fontana Hotel?

13 A. About 200 metres. Two hundred to 300 metres as the crow flies.

14 Q. You've told us about one aspect of the removal of bodies, a lorry

15 carrying the bodies. To your knowledge, was it just one lorry or one

16 occasion or was it several lorries on many occasions or don't you know?

17 A. In front of the hangar and the hall, one could hear trucks coming

18 and going all the time. Groups of people were taken out of the

19 gym -- gymnasium who were constantly loading the bodies. So there were

20 several lorries.

21 MR. NICE: I'm actually going to be a few more minutes, I'm

22 afraid, with this. But I'm entirely in the Court's hands. I can deal

23 with it now or --

24 JUDGE MAY: A few more minutes, please.

25 MR. NICE: Your Honour, yes.

Page 20365

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Page 20366

1 Q. Now, it's been said that you don't know where those mass graves

2 that must have been built to take those bodies were, but nevertheless, it

3 was several lorries moving in and out of the school. Do you know which

4 road they took?

5 A. It is not correct that I don't know, because quite recently, I

6 think towards the end of last year, one of the mass graves was found in

7 the area of the Redzici village, and it is assumed that it contains men

8 from the hall who were killed.

9 Q. As to that mass grave, just help us. Would the route to it pass

10 by the Fontana Hotel where, if they weren't on the streets, the JNA unit

11 would have been based or would it be in another direction?

12 A. No, I really don't know --

13 Q. Very well.

14 A. -- where they drove off those people.

15 Q. And finally on the topic of the JNA's presence, when you were

16 eventually moved for exchange to Pale, what were the forces that moved

17 you?

18 A. We were taken there by the newly formed police, and we were

19 escorted, I think, by two APCs of the Yugoslav People's Army or whichever

20 army it was that was present at that time in Bratunac.

21 Q. And as your statement makes clear, you were disguised on the basis

22 that you might be thought to be people arrested for crimes with a second

23 truck carrying the weapons, it was being suggested, for those looking, had

24 been taken off you; correct?

25 A. I didn't say that I was disguised. I never said in any statement

Page 20367

1 that I was disguised or masked or that we prisoners were masked. It seems

2 to me, and I'm quite sure that what I said was that after we were prepared

3 for an exchange, leaving the hall at Pale, a corridor was formed of Serbs

4 who were masked.

5 Q. No, no.

6 A. And who --

7 Q. Forgive me. My mistake in the question I asked in order to save

8 time. In the move to Pale, was there another lorry sent containing

9 weapons?

10 A. After the exchange, I learnt that the mass media in Serbia and

11 Bosnia and Herzegovina, which was at the time under the authority of the

12 Bosnian Serbs, that they announced that we were a group of Ustashas

13 captured in the fighting around Srebrenica and that with them personal

14 weapons had been brought with us, that that had been confiscated from us.

15 Q. And as you've already explained, this movement was accompanied by

16 the movement of the two APCs.

17 MR. NICE: Your Honour, I have a couple more questions. I can

18 delete the remainder although they might have been useful, but I'll try

19 and delete them.

20 Q. To give -- you were asked a question by Mr. Kay about, I think,

21 about the locals being compelled to work with the incoming forces. Help

22 us with this if you can: Just yes or no, was there a time when you were

23 able to return to Bratunac after the conflict and at least speak to people

24 who were living there then? Just yes or no.

25 A. Yes.

Page 20368

1 Q. Did you find yourself and were you prepared to speak to those who

2 you recognised as having been involved in these atrocities on the Serb

3 side?

4 A. I didn't talk to people that I was sure had committed atrocities,

5 but I did talk to people who were, for instance, were in the escort when I

6 was being held, who were guarding me at the stadium. One of my friends,

7 in fact, had taken some money from me and thrown it onto a pile that was

8 designated for that purpose. So did I spoke to those people.

9 Q. Explain to the Judges if you would be so good, please, why it was

10 you were prepared to speak to people who had been involved at any event to

11 that extent when you saw them after these events? What did they explain

12 to you about what it was that they'd been doing and why?

13 A. Out of all the Serbs in Bratunac, my personal opinion is that

14 maybe some 10 per cent only enjoyed what was going on. Ten per cent or so

15 were against what was happening, and 80 per cent of them were passive

16 observers who simply feared for their families. Many of them explained to

17 me later on that they had to do what they did because they feared what

18 would happen to their families, and I believe them. Why wouldn't I

19 believe them? And I forgive them for what --

20 Q. And finally, the accused on several occasions pressed you for

21 opinions on what led to all this and ultimately suggested to you that it

22 was all fanned by the flames of the secession of Bosnia-Herzegovina. He

23 didn't use the word nationalism there, but that was the theme of many of

24 his questions. If you feel you can -- I say finally there is a document I

25 must put in. If you feel you can, having been asked that questioned so

Page 20369

1 many times, comment on your understanding as a resident of the cause of

2 this conflict, can you do so?

3 A. Unfortunately, my opinion differs from the opinion of many on both

4 sides. For a long time after everything that happened to me, for years

5 and years, I spent many nights thinking what it was that resulted in

6 thousands of innocent people laying down their lives for nothing. The

7 creation of a new state doesn't mean that anyone can put it in his pocket

8 and take it to another continent. We continued to be neighbours,

9 continued to live next to one another. Nobody prevented anyone from

10 taking any power. 80 per cent of the power in Bratunac was held by Serbs,

11 they headed all public institutions, and nobody thought that this was a

12 bad thing. My personal opinion is that nationalism was not the spark that

13 triggered those events. I think, after all, that it was crime that

14 predominated or, rather, that nationalism was just used to cover up what

15 was to take place later. It would have been much easier for me to

16 understand that -- that Serbia had become a powerful country, a country of

17 prosperity, a country in which citizens are leading a normal life after

18 they embarked upon that war to create a greater Serbia. But all that has

19 been created is a beast that is swallowing up its own people. So I

20 believe what happened on one side and the other and a third was prompted

21 by crimes and criminals.

22 JUDGE MAY: You know, Mr. Nice, we've spent more than 20 minutes

23 on this re-examination.

24 MR. NICE: Your Honour, yes, but --

25 JUDGE MAY: And it's a question of whether it's really necessary

Page 20370

1 in a witness like this. But let's move on.

2 MR. NICE: [Previous translation continues]... And go I may say

3 so, Your Honour, when the accused asks, and always in a tendentious way,

4 for opinions there can be occasions when opinions of witnesses on the

5 ground can be extremely valuable I respectfully suggest. My last question

6 relates to the accused's suggestion that this witness was in a position to

7 be committing crimes in certain months of 1992 and he's spoken of the

8 document he's producing. It can now become an exhibit with your leave,

9 perhaps it can be become Tab 6.

10 THE REGISTRAR: Tab 5, Prosecutor's Exhibit 440.

11 MR. NICE:

12 Q. If you just look at this. It will have to be under seal, it can't

13 be revealed, of course. Is this the document showing your joining up the

14 army in March of 1993? And that's as much detail as I'll give.

15 A. Your Honours, I could have provided a certificate from the local

16 community, the municipality in which I was, and everyone would have

17 suspected that that certificate was given without any grounds. I have

18 produced a valid document which confirms and indicates exactly where I was

19 on a particular date, of which unit I was a member, and on what location I

20 was to be found on a particular date. So there's no chance is that I

21 could have been anywhere else except in these places which are indicated

22 and stamped in this document.

23 Q. The statement is what happened to him in the meantime in hospital.

24 Thank you.

25 JUDGE MAY: Just a moment. Witness B-1070, thank you for

Page 20371

1 attending and coming to the court to give your evidence. It's now

2 concluded and you're free to go.

3 Mr. Milosevic, we'll hear your point when we come back. We're

4 going to adjourn now. Twenty minutes.

5 --- Recess taken at 12.34 p.m.

6 --- On resuming at 1.01 p.m.

7 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Milosevic, you had a point when we went out, and I

8 had said we would hear you. Maybe the moment has passed.

9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I just wanted to object, Mr. May,

10 because the witness who testified a moment ago was this morning

11 transformed from a viva voce witness to a 92 bis witness. His

12 examination-in-chief was reduced to a minimum, and this of course affected

13 my own cross-examination. And after that, you gave Mr. Nice all of half

14 an hour for so-called re-examination, which did not relate to any new

15 facts, and I think it was not correct.

16 JUDGE MAY: I will deal with that. In fact, it was 20 minutes.

17 You heard me make some comment as to the length. But so you understand

18 the rules, the Prosecution do have a right to re-examine a witness after

19 cross-examination, and that does include these 92 bis witnesses. And in a

20 sense, it can be said to be a right which is more important with them

21 because the Prosecution has not had time or the usual time with them

22 beforehand. So there is a right to re-examine. You will have it in due

23 course when you call your evidence. But it's obviously one which should

24 be exercised fairly circumspectly and not taking at too great a length.

25 Yes. We will have the next witness, please.

Page 20372

1 MR. GROOME: Yes, Your Honour, the next witness is B-1237. There

2 are two preliminary matters I would like to raise with the Court prior to

3 him being called. The first is, Your Honour, I became aware of earlier

4 today of a technical breach of Rule 90(C) and that is the prohibition of

5 one witness seeing the testimony of another. This particular witness had

6 asked to see the courtroom, and he was brought by a member of the OTP

7 staff into the public gallery for approximately two minutes. He was

8 there. Apparently the proceedings were broadcast in his language. The

9 witness who was testifying at that time was Mr. Gusic, a witness from a

10 different municipality, and he was testifying or he was being

11 cross-examined at the time about removal of arms from the Territorial

12 Defence of that -- of Bratunac municipality. Nothing that this witness

13 will testify about. I believe it's merely a technical violation.

14 I have advised or sent out notice to the members of the team

15 reminding them of our obligations under 90(C), but I did want to bring it

16 to the Chamber's attention that such did occur.

17 JUDGE MAY: Very well.

18 MR. GROOME: And the second matter, Your Honour, is this witness

19 is a protected witness. The Prosecution will be seeking to take some of

20 his testimony in closed session. If I might summarise his presence at

21 four meetings. Some of those meetings he will discuss and is requesting

22 that simply the participants in the meeting be taken in closed session.

23 One of the meetings and it is of substantial length and probably the most

24 significant thing he will testify about is a meeting in which -- that is

25 so notorious with so few participants that he feels there is no way he can

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Page 20374

1 refer to that meeting in open session without clearly identifying himself

2 or the limited number of other participants and fears not only for his

3 safety but their safety as well.

4 And finally the last portion that we would seek to take in closed

5 session and very briefly is a map where he's identified the precise

6 locations where he was at particular times. He fears taking this in open

7 session would identify him.

8 JUDGE MAY: Very well. We will have the witness.

9 [The witness entered court]

10 JUDGE MAY: Let the witness take the declaration.

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

12 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

13 JUDGE MAY: If you'd like to take a seat.

14 WITNESS: WITNESS B-1237

15 [Witness answered through interpreter]

16 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, I'd ask that we begin the testimony of

17 this witness -- I realise I'm causing the usher having to run, but to show

18 the witness tab 1 of a binder of exhibits we would wish to use with this

19 witness, I'd ask the binder be assigned a number at this juncture.

20 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honour, Prosecutor's Exhibit 441.

21 Examined by Mr. Groome:

22 Q. Sir, my question to you is I'd ask you to look at the top of

23 Prosecution Exhibit 441, tab 1. Is that your name at the top of the page?

24 A. Yes, at the top of the page is my full first and last name.

25 Q. For the purposes of protecting your identity, I will refer you as

Page 20375

1 B-1237. Have you seen the remainder of this page in preparation for your

2 testimony here today?

3 A. Yes, I have seen the rest of this page. All the data on it are

4 correct, and today I did not prepare myself for the testimony at all.

5 Q. Are you willing to answer additional questions about your

6 educational and professional background?

7 A. I am ready to answer all questions which will assist for the truth

8 to be proven.

9 Q. Sir --

10 MR. GROOME: I'm finished with that exhibit. Thank you, usher.

11 Q. Sir, I want to begin your testimony by asking you some basic

12 background questions regarding Zvornik. Can you tell us approximately how

13 many people were living in Zvornik prior to the conflict?

14 A. Prior to the conflict there were about 80.000 people living in

15 Zvornik municipality.

16 JUDGE MAY: We'll go into private session.

17 [Private session]

18 [redacted]

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9 [Open session]

10 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session.

11 JUDGE MAY: Yes. The remainder of today's hearing is going to be

12 in fact in closed session.

13 Yes.

14 MR. GROOME: Thank you, Your Honour.

15 [Private session]

16 [redacted]

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12 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.50 p.m.,

13 to be reconvened on Thursday, the 8th day of May,

14 2003, at 9.00 a.m.

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