Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia>

Page 21431

1 Monday, 2 June 2003

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 [The witness entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 9.05 a.m.

6 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Groome.

7 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, I believe there's a portion of

8 cross-examination to be completed.

9 JUDGE MAY: You're right. Mr. Milosevic.

10 WITNESS: WITNESS B-1455 [Resumed]

11 [Witness answered through interpreter]

12 Cross-examined by Mr. Milosevic: [Continued]

13 Q. [Interpretation] Witness B-1455, do you remember that the conflict

14 in Zvornik started -- started at the same time as it did in Foca according

15 to my information, and that is on the same day that the Presidency of

16 Bosnia and Herzegovina took the decision to form the Territorial Defence

17 of the republican staff? Do you remember that?

18 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters apologise. We can't hear the

19 witness.

20 JUDGE MAY: Witness, there has been some trouble about the

21 interpreters hearing you. Would you just start again, please, speaking as

22 slowly and clearly as you can.

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I Heard of the decision of the

24 Presidency, and I heard that Zvornik was attacked on the 8th of April, and

25 I heard this via the media, nothing more than that.

Page 21432

1 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

2 Q. I'm referring to the decision of the Presidency of Bosnia and

3 Herzegovina which was taken, if you remember, without the presence of the

4 Serbian members of the Presidency to form the staff of the Territorial

5 Defence?

6 JUDGE MAY: Now, Mr. Milosevic. Have we not gone over this time

7 and time again? What is the point of asking this witness who is from one

8 particular municipality about who was present at a meeting of the

9 Presidency? We waste time in this way. Now, let's move on to something

10 else which he can deal with.

11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May, what is happening was

12 happening within a context which cannot be viewed in isolation from other

13 events in Bosnia and Herzegovina, and in several towns the conflict

14 started at that time, precisely as a consequence of that decision taken by

15 the Presidency without the Serbs. And I'm asking him whether he knows

16 anything about that.

17 JUDGE MAY: And I am stopping you. We have witnesses who deal

18 with all sorts of matters in a case of this sort. There will be some who

19 no doubt can deal with that decision, but this witness is here and has

20 given evidence about a municipality, not about the generality of politics

21 in Bosnia at the time. And so you must confine your cross-examination to

22 what he can deal with, and he can deal with this municipality and the

23 evidence which he's given. Asking him generalised political questions is

24 of no assistance to anybody, and it just wastes time. So move on to

25 something else.

Page 21433

1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May, I understand that the

2 endeavours of the opposite side is to take individual incidents out of

3 context and then to place them within a distorted picture. I understand

4 that. But I will reduce my questions to what was happening over there.

5 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

6 Q. Are you aware that the immediate cause of the conflict in Zvornik

7 was the mobilisation of the Muslim militia ordered by the president of the

8 municipality and the SDA representative Avdula Pasic, a former dentist,

9 and Nedzed Sabic, commander of the Territorial Defence who later became

10 commander of the Podrinje Brigade of the army of Bosnia and Herzegovina?

11 Are you aware of that?

12 A. I am not aware of that. I heard of those people from others, but

13 that that was the cause of the conflict in Zvornik, that is the formation

14 of such units, I don't know anything about that. I was an ordinary

15 citizen who was endeavouring to survive together with his family, and I

16 was not at all interested in politics. I was never a member of any party,

17 in fact, never. And that that was the reason is something I don't know,

18 and there's nothing I can say in answer to that question.

19 Q. You're talking about the events at the end of May, aren't you?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And do you remember that in mid-April there was an attack by

22 Muslim extremists against the village of Rastosnica in your own

23 municipality when the inhabitants of that village were killed? It's a

24 Serb village. So this was more than a month prior to the events that you

25 describe. Do you remember that? This occurred on the 17th of April, the

Page 21434

1 attack on the Serbian village of Rastosnica.

2 A. Mr. Milosevic, I was saying that that has absolutely nothing to do

3 with why I'm here today. I heard about that, however, because I had

4 friends in that village. And if you have information that the Muslim

5 forces attacked that village, I don't know anything about that at all.

6 But you do know that the aggression against Zvornik started on the 8th of

7 April, and that that same day, within a time of 20 minutes, Zvornik was

8 under the control of the Yugoslav army and paramilitary units. So this

9 means that there was no resistance. There was some resistance at

10 Kulagrad. I heard of this Rastosnica, but as to any attack and any

11 casualties in that village, I can't tell you anything specific about that.

12 I am here for another reason anyway.

13 Q. For another reason? Well, if you don't know anything about

14 anything else, how is it that you say that the JNA attacked Zvornik when

15 it didn't?

16 A. The people defending Kulagrad know best about that, who they had

17 to deal with and what flag was hoisted at Kulagrad. I know from the

18 people who deserted from that area.

19 Q. We don't need to go into that any further, but as you mentioned

20 Kulagrad, you do realise that at Kulagrad there was fighting for 20 days?

21 A. Yes, I do know that, that there was fighting at Kulagrad for 20

22 days, and explosions, artillery explosions could be heard as far as our

23 village. The explosions, weapons attacking Kulagrad. And I heard that it

24 fell on the 26th of April, and this is something I heard, and later, those

25 men left Kulagrad.

Page 21435

1 Q. Very well. And do you know anything about the fact that in

2 mid-April the so-called Mosque Doves, this paramilitary unit that was

3 formed, set up road blocks on the bridges -- on the bridges across the

4 Drina?

5 A. No, absolutely not. I'm not aware of any such barricades or of

6 any such unit. The Mosque Doves? That is something rather strange, the

7 Mosque Doves.

8 Q. Tell me, since you are aware of the events in Kulagrad, do you

9 know how the fighting evolved over 20 days? Armed groups from Kalesija

10 and Zivinice arrived? Do you remember that? Do you remember who led

11 them?

12 A. Mr. Milosevic, I don't know anything much about the fighting there

13 or who came there because I'm not a military person. I'm not a military

14 analyst, nor did I live close to Kulagrad. I lived 15 kilometres away,

15 and I know only what I heard from others, and I can't tell Their Honours

16 something that I didn't see myself but that I just heard as rumours or

17 information from others which need not be true, and that is why I can't

18 talk about those things.

19 Q. Very well then. Let us be more specific and refer to some things

20 that you mention in your statement. For instance, on page 3, paragraph 3,

21 I'm asking you whether it is true that after the Serb forces had captured

22 the town of Zvornik there were no particular incidents.

23 A. It is true that when the Serb forces captured Zvornik the fighting

24 was taking place at Kulagrad for 20 days. In my village, Kostjerovo and

25 the neighbouring village of Drinjaca, there were no incidents, no

Page 21436

1 incidents, though I said after the 29th of April, after the fall of Kula,

2 those military forces of the Yugoslav People's Army and paramilitary units

3 came to Drinjaca and seized the weapons in the possession of the Muslims.

4 There were no serious incidents until the 30th of May when they came and

5 did what I described at the last hearing.

6 Q. On that same page, in paragraph 7, you say that after the 29th of

7 April, no one went to work any more and that anyone who would try to go to

8 work would be beaten up and sent back. That's not true, is it?

9 A. It is true. It is true. After the 29th of April, when the

10 weapons had been seized, Major Pavlovic, who was present and who

11 supervised the seizure of weapons in Drinjaca, gave certificates to the

12 people who had handed in their hunting weapons with a licence. Of course,

13 for the illegal weapons no certificates were given, no receipts were

14 given, and he said that the weapons would be returned. And he said, "From

15 now on, I guarantee your security. You are our loyal citizens. You are

16 free to go back to work, be free to go shopping, to move around freely."

17 However, when some people went to work in Karakaj - most of them were

18 working in Karakaj, I didn't work there, I worked in Belgrade - people

19 witnessed harassment and mistreatment, and they were returned home. I

20 heard this from people who went there. And they went back and never

21 returned to work.

22 Q. I see. They were turned back from the barricades. And you say

23 here that they were beaten up.

24 A. They returned from those barricades. There were people who were

25 beaten up. There were others who were mistreated and insulted without

Page 21437

1 being beaten at these roadblocks.

2 Q. Do you have any example of somebody being beaten up? Who was

3 beaten up? Could you give us a name?

4 A. I can't give you examples because I don't remember, but I know

5 that my brother was turned back from the roadblock. He wasn't beaten up.

6 He was insulted. He was told to go back home and not to try and come back

7 because nothing was working any more and there was no need for him to

8 come. Unfortunately, he's no longer alive.

9 Q. Very well. Is it possible that they didn't go to work out of fear

10 of revenge from local Serbs because of the crimes committed before that by

11 the Muslims?

12 A. Absolutely not, because in my village, as I said, there never was

13 any incidents, and people were not afraid of anything because they were

14 not guilty of anything. So we were just going to work as we were told.

15 Some people managed to reach the factory itself, but apparently the Serbs

16 wouldn't even exchange greetings with them there. They simply -- they --

17 they were told, "Can't you see it's all over? There's no work any more,"

18 and the man would just pick up his things and go back home.

19 Q. Under these circumstances that you're talking about, do you know

20 how this is possible that no one can go to work but everybody is very

21 peace-loving? And on the 5th of May, an attack was carried out against

22 the village of Boskovici, the civilian population there. Again the Muslim

23 armed formations. Nine Serb civilians were killed then on the 5th of May.

24 Why are you representing things the other way round, that you sat

25 at home peacefully and did nothing personally. Perhaps you did, but --

Page 21438

1 JUDGE MAY: Let the witness answer. Do you know anything about

2 this attack that is alleged on this village on the 5th of May?

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We were cut off from that part of

4 the municipality. Boskovici is about 30 kilometres away from my village.

5 As far as I know, some of my school friends came to school in Karakaj from

6 those villages so I remember that. But is that moment, I did not hear

7 where the fighting was going on. We did not receive any information. We

8 simply still lived with the Serbs there. There were no problems. We

9 handed in our weapons, and we barely received any information, because

10 this territory of the south of the municipality of Zvornik was cut off

11 when Glumina, Kulagrad, and Caparde was taken over. So no one knew what

12 was going on on the other side of Zvornik, and I simply cannot say a thing

13 about all of this.

14 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

15 Q. Did you hear about the killing of these nine civilians on the 5th

16 of May?

17 A. How could I hear that? How could I know about that information,

18 that nine civilians were killed? How could I know that? I had to listen

19 to the Serb Radio Zvornik then. Until then, there was Radio Zvornik for

20 everybody, for the entire population. And then there was the Serb radio

21 Zvornik. And of course in this state of war, of course the media were in

22 favour of the politics that prevailed in town then. So possibly something

23 like that did take place, but I really cannot say. I mean, I can tell you

24 what I did and what I know, but I was not there. I do not know about

25 this, so how can I tell you anything about it?

Page 21439

1 Q. This is quite logical. They expect me to know what happened in

2 another state. That's what they expect of me here and you don't even know

3 what happened in the municipality.

4 Do you know the name of Semso Muminovic, Dzemal Spahic, Hajrudin

5 Mesic, nicknamed Labud? These are people who led the extremists who were

6 killing civilians in the villages in the municipality of Zvornik. Do you

7 recall these names? Do you know them?

8 A. I heard about these names, but, Mr. Milosevic, they were not

9 extremists. These were commanders of the Territorial Defence in their

10 respective municipalities. They were defending themselves from the Serbs.

11 They were attacked. They were shelled every day. Their women, children,

12 civilians were being killed just as you say that people were killed in

13 Boskovici. Well, it was the same thing. These men were our commanders of

14 the Territorial Defence in their respective municipalities and villages.

15 They are not extremists at all. They gave everything they could for the

16 freedom of Bosnia-Herzegovina, and I cannot accept you calling them

17 extremists.

18 Q. So what do you think they should be called, the people who on the

19 9th of May, in the attack against Gornja Baljkovica killed 16 Serb

20 civilians?

21 JUDGE MAY: He's told you, Mr. Milosevic, and the argument is

22 pointless. Your repetition of extremists is pointless. He's given you

23 his answer. You can make your submissions to us in due course.

24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] That's precisely what I'm asking

25 him.

Page 21440

1 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

2 Q. Is that the defence of one's own people, one's own citizens?

3 JUDGE MAY: He has told you how he characterises those people.

4 You asked him about them, he's told you. Now move on to something else.

5 No point arguing with him.

6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May, what I'm saying is the

7 following: If somebody comes with a group to a Serb village, kills

8 civilians and burns the village down, do you call that defence?

9 JUDGE MAY: We've heard all this from you. But at the moment,

10 what you're doing is examining this witness. You asked him about those

11 people. You characterised them in some way. He denies it. He says

12 you're wrong. Now, let's move on to something else. There's no point

13 arguing all the time.

14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I'm talking about attacks against

15 Serb villages, Mr. May, attacks. I'm not talking about the defence of

16 Muslim villages. I'm talking about attacks and killings of dozens of

17 civilians, about burning these villages down.

18 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

19 Q. And do you recall from May 1992 attacks were launched against the

20 village of Rozanj until they finally expelled all the Serbs from that

21 village?

22 A. Mr. Milosevic, you keep repeating these questions to me, and I

23 have nothing to do with these things. I lived in isolation from all of

24 this until the 15th of July when, as a wounded person, I crossed the

25 occupied territory, Muslim-torched villages. And then I arrived in Tuzla.

Page 21441

1 It was only then that I could hear some information. But I never take

2 information seriously unless I was present myself. I'm here to say what I

3 saw and what happened in my local commune. I cannot testify about things

4 that took place 30 kilometres away from where I was and where I could not

5 go myself.

6 Many people know this. Many people know how Muslim villages were

7 burning, how the population was expelled, how women and girls were raped,

8 how old men were killed, how young men were killed. Now, why would I to

9 debate all of this here with you? In my opinion, let everybody be held

10 accountable before this court irrespective of their ethnicity. In

11 Bosnia-Herzegovina, everybody who committed a crime should repent and say,

12 "This is what I did," regardless of what ethnicity they belonged to, even

13 members of my own Bosniak people. They have to be held accountable, and

14 I'm in favour of that.

15 Q. It is true that everybody who committed a crime should be held

16 accountable. Everybody who committed a crime should indeed be held

17 responsible before a legal court.

18 Please, you are talking about something that happened in this

19 environment, and we are trying to establish this. This happened among

20 people who on both sides lost members of their families. You say that on

21 the 30th of May, 1992, in Drinjaca, so that's the event that you're

22 talking about, members of the paramilitary and soldiers of the JNA hit

23 you, ordered you to go in front of Zaid Alic's house which is in the

24 centre of the village, that they arrested most of the local villagers

25 including yourself, that they were beating you, insulting you, and you say

Page 21442

1 that they did not have any insignia. So is it clear that these people

2 could not have been JNA members? The JNA have insignia. They are

3 visible, quite visible on their sleeves, on their shoulders.

4 So is it correct that you actually cannot confirm, and you cannot

5 even claim that there were members of the JNA there?

6 A. I can confirm that they were there. I was also a member of the

7 Yugoslav People's Army, and I know full well what kind of uniforms they

8 wear. On the uniforms of the Yugoslav People's Army while I was in the

9 army, we had a five-pointed star that was on the cap, and on that day

10 everybody kept their caps in their pockets, so I could not see their caps.

11 But 100 per cent they were wearing JNA uniforms, olive-green/grey. And

12 there were a few men there in camouflage uniform too. So this is what I

13 claim, that this is who these people were.

14 Q. Do you know that everybody in the Territorial Defence from Triglav

15 to Djevdjelija, from Slovenia to Macedonia had uniforms of the Yugoslav

16 People's Army? So what made them different?

17 A. I beg your pardon? Could you please repeat your question.

18 Q. You're talking about uniforms of the JNA. Well, the entire

19 Territorial Defence in Slovenia, Bosnia, in Croatia and Macedonia and

20 Montenegro and Serbia, everywhere, everybody had uniforms that were the

21 same, like the Yugoslav People's Army. But you yourself say that they did

22 not have any insignia.

23 A. I am saying that the Yugoslav People's Army, where I also did my

24 military service, had only a five-pointed star on their caps. We did not

25 have any insignia whatsoever in the JNA on our shoulders, none whatsoever.

Page 21443

1 So of course people took off these caps. Nobody wore a cap. Hardly

2 anybody who wore a cap then. Only those who wore black caps, those who

3 wore camouflage uniforms. I told you about that.

4 Q. Since you did your military service like I did, do you know that

5 you did have to wear a cap with insignia if you're a member of the JNA,

6 that those are the rules of service, that you were not allowed to take

7 your cap off, that the cap was part of the uniform that had to be worn?

8 A. I did my military service in peacetime, my military service in the

9 Yugoslav People's Army, that is, and I know when the cap can be taken off

10 and when it cannot be taken off. But in a situation of war, was this

11 supposed to apply to the army when there was shooting, when people were

12 getting killed and had to get killed? So soldiers were given some

13 liberty.

14 Q. On the basis of what could you come to the conclusion then that

15 these were members of the JNA?

16 A. I said according to the olive-green/grey uniform that they were

17 wearing, from their boots to their jackets.

18 Q. I'm not going to ask you anything else about this. It's --

19 well -- so what makes this uniform from the boots to the jacket different

20 from Territorial Defence uniforms? Give me one single thing that makes it

21 different.

22 A. Oh, what makes it different.

23 Q. The JNA, the Territorial Defence, why are they different?

24 A. I didn't see any difference no difference whatsoever.

25 Q. Well, that's what I'm telling you?

Page 21444

1 A. Well, the Territorial Defence and the JNA wore olive-green/grey

2 uniforms, the same uniform.

3 Q. Tell me, please, when they took you to Drinjaca, to the cultural

4 centre there, you say that at the cultural centre you saw your armed

5 neighbours in JNA uniforms, and you actually give their names. You give a

6 few names here. Since you have a number here, I can give you these names,

7 and I don't have to give you all the names. This is on page 4, paragraphs

8 9 and 10. Is that right?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. You saw your armed neighbours?

11 A. I saw a few armed neighbours in uniforms of the reserve force of

12 the Yugoslav People's Army. Some wore either trousers or something that

13 had nothing to do with the rest, but I did see some who wore this uniform

14 of the JNA. They were probably issued that, and they were probably

15 helping them there get all the people together, because they cannot know

16 our village as well as our neighbours can know it. They cannot know whose

17 houses which ethnicity. My neighbour lived 200 metres away from me.

18 Q. Well, precisely that's what you're saying. They just wore

19 uniforms that used to belong to the JNA. So isn't that a clear sign that

20 they were not members of the JNA?

21 A. I am telling you the following: That there were many members of

22 the reserve force of the Yugoslav People's Army who were wearing the same

23 uniforms, olive-green/grey like my neighbours who were recruited in the

24 reserve force. They were all mobilised, and most of them wore such

25 uniforms.

Page 21445

1 Q. In the Territorial Defence and in the army of Republika Srpska, to

2 the best of my understanding. But then you say an officer walked into the

3 Dom and ordered the women and children to leave. He told you that you

4 should not be afraid, that you didn't do a thing, that you would go to see

5 Zenica. He wore an officer's uniform, you say. He was a lieutenant, you

6 say. Since you had done your military service, you could have established

7 that, but then perhaps he introduced himself as a lieutenant, perhaps.

8 And you say that he was tall, he had brown curly hair, he had an ex-JNA

9 officer's uniform on. At the time he was about 40 years old. That's what

10 it says here in your statement.

11 Is it clear to you, Mr. 1455, that in the JNA there are no

12 40-year-old lieutenants? That can only happen in the Territorial Defence,

13 in some kind of reserve force. But if a man were to be a lieutenant at

14 the age of 40, he should be a lieutenant for about 15 years in order to

15 have that rank.

16 There is not a single lieutenant in the JNA who is that old. At

17 the age of 40, they --

18 JUDGE MAY: This speech must end and we must come to a question.

19 Mr. Milosevic, I should tell you that you've got something like 20 minutes

20 left of your examination, so don't waste too much time.

21 The point -- let the witness answer the point.

22 The point is made that this man, at age 40, was too old to be a

23 lieutenant. Normally if he was in the JNA, he wouldn't have been that

24 sort of age as a lieutenant. Can you comment on that?

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I said that that's the way he

Page 21446

1 looked. And when I saw how a person looked, I mean by looking at his

2 face. And by his face, I could infer that he was about 40. Perhaps he

3 was between 35 and 40, but this is the way his face appeared to me.

4 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

5 Q. All right. Are you sure that he was not an officer of the army of

6 Republika Srpska or some other formation there? Are you sure about that

7 or are you not sure?

8 A. At that time, I did not even hear of the existence of the army of

9 Republika Srpska.

10 Q. All right. Is it correct that precisely this man at the Zvornik

11 hospital showed this on television, this is what you say on page 5, showed

12 a man who was killed and who was lying in a bathtub full of blood, and he

13 said, "Look at what the Muslims did to us"?

14 A. Yes, this is what I saw on television. So I'm not trying to evade

15 the issue. This was two or three days later. He talked about this case,

16 that the Muslims killed this man somewhere, and again there was a caption

17 that said "Branko Studen," a lieutenant from the garrison unit in Zvornik.

18 Q. Did it say lieutenant of the unit in Zvornik?

19 A. The garrison in Zvornik.

20 Q. When was that?

21 A. This was two or three days after the execution in Drinjaca. I'm

22 not sure. I think that's the way it was.

23 Q. So it must have been June by then; right?

24 A. Yes, it must have been June.

25 Q. At that time, as you know, there was no JNA in the territory of

Page 21447

1 Bosnia-Herzegovina.

2 A. I don't know when the JNA left and whether it left. I wasn't

3 really interested in that, because later on I was not a member of the

4 army, of course. I was a disabled person, and people were protecting me

5 in my country as a man who survived a mass execution. So I don't know,

6 according to this information that you have, when the Yugoslav People's

7 Army left Bosnia-Herzegovina and whether they left it at all. I don't

8 know about this, and I cannot make any comments to that effect.

9 Q. All right. Now, let's go back to the group of people you

10 mentioned, the six men. Is it clear at least there that they were not

11 members of the JNA?

12 A. Well, judging by the uniforms, I couldn't say that they belonged

13 to the Yugoslav People's Army because -- but judging by everything they

14 had on them ranging from the uniforms and looking at it on television in

15 Bijeljina, what people like that did, they looked like members of Arkan's

16 units. But I did say that I wasn't quite sure whether they were members

17 of Arkan's unit. Maybe that was their image, the one they liked to

18 portray, to have uniforms of that kind, because Arkan was very famous at

19 that time in Bosnia.

20 Q. So they were neither members of the JNA nor can you say with any

21 certainty that they were members of Arkan's units either. Is that it?

22 Because they didn't -- did they have any insignia on their uniforms?

23 A. No, I didn't see any. But I did describe the uniforms very well.

24 And anyway, who would tell me? People here, we are members of the Arkan's

25 units. We're killers. We instil terror and that kind of thing. Nobody

Page 21448

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Page 21449

1 would stand up and say that to the people around about. It's up to me to

2 observe and conclude. So if I can't say anything, then I can't say that

3 they were either members of the JNA or Arkan's units, although those

4 special forces did wear uniforms that looked like Arkan's units.

5 Q. Well, different witnesses here said that there were members of the

6 Serbian Volunteer Guards, the Zeljko Raznjatovic unit and that they had

7 very prominent, easily visible insignia denoting that, but you say you

8 didn't see any insignia.

9 A. Mr. Milosevic, if you hold your head down between your knees for

10 15 minutes and then are just given a minute or two to straighten your neck

11 for a moment, then during that minute of fear that you experience could

12 you really be able to differentiate who the soldiers belonged to? I was

13 so afraid myself, and I was afraid to look at them straight in the eye.

14 Then they might beat me up just like they beat up the other 25 people.

15 And they were so badly beaten that they couldn't even move. They were so

16 badly beaten. They would fall unconscious, and then they would revive

17 them and beat them again. It was terrible to listen to these people being

18 beaten. They would scream and cry like children and then --

19 Q. Well, I understand that you weren't able to establish that, but

20 you did notice that the commander had a beard and a moustache and all the

21 rest of it, so I assume you don't know that not a single member of the

22 guards had the right to wear a beard. They had to be clean-shaven and

23 weren't allowed to wear beards, whereas you established that this man had

24 a beard?

25 A. Well, I don't know what the rules governing those units are,

Page 21450

1 whether beards were regulation or not, but as he was the one who beat us

2 most and abused us most, then it was quite normal and we were afraid of

3 him most and we would look at him, watch him. Now, whether the rules say

4 you can wear a beard or not, I really can't say. I don't know.

5 Q. And you say that after that, a group of soldiers turned up with

6 the White Eagles insignia on the caps and cockades. Now, are you aware of

7 the fact that those weren't members of the JNA either? Is that clear? Is

8 that point clear?

9 A. Yes, that's clear to me. But don't forget that I said that there

10 was a unit there of the JNA and those six other men who I saw there, and

11 later on the third unit that arrived wearing Chetnik uniforms. And on

12 some of their uniforms I saw some kinds of eagles. I couldn't look at all

13 the soldiers, but I also saw the cockades on their caps. And of course,

14 people like that can't be members of the Yugoslav People's Army. People

15 know who they were. But I did specify that there were units that had no

16 beards, that were dressed in the olive-green uniforms from head to toe

17 except the caps, of course. It was only the fact that they did not wear

18 any caps on their heads.

19 Q. Right. We've already cleared that up. You say that your turn

20 came and as you say the Chetniks kicked you and hit you with their rifle

21 butts, that five many them opened fire at you and that a bullet hit you in

22 your left hip. Is that right? Is that correct?

23 A. I was sitting --

24 Q. I'm asking you whether that's correct, what I've just described as

25 according to what you said.

Page 21451

1 A. Yes. These Chetniks, the ones I saw -- yes, they were Chetniks, I

2 saw them, of course Chetniks, and they kicked us and hit us with their

3 rifle butts and told us to go out. And they said -- they took us to the

4 place where they would execute us. They shot at us. And from this

5 line-up of about six persons of this kind and once again they were not

6 wearing caps, I don't know why, I just saw in the few seconds that I was

7 able to see, and they shot at me and hit me --

8 JUDGE MAY: Can you answer fairly shortly, please, Witness 1455,

9 because time is limited. The other point is to try and remember to watch

10 the microphone of the accused and only answer when it's off, if you would.

11 Yes, Mr. Milosevic.

12 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

13 Q. All right. So we've established that. You were hit in the left

14 hip. And then you say that they saw that you were still alive, and then

15 another one shot a burst of gunfire at you, and from that burst a bullet

16 hit you in your right shoulder. From what distance did this person shoot

17 at you? He was in front of you, I assume?

18 A. Yes, it's true that I was hit in the left hip. It passed through

19 my meat. I fell down, and they turned the bodies over to see if anybody

20 was still alive. One of them kicked me in the back side and said it looks

21 as if this one is still alive. And the other man said, "Well, what are

22 you waiting for? Shoot another bullet at him." And then there was a

23 burst of gunfire. They were shooting at me in my back. And on my

24 clothing there were 11 bullet holes from under my armpit through the

25 collar and all this, down this side. One of them hit me in the shoulder

Page 21452

1 blade and exited in front.

2 Q. Well, if they shot you from 1 metre distance as you say and you

3 were hit in the shoulder; is that right? And you had 11 holes in your

4 clothing, is that what you say?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Now you say that after you were shot you got up and started

7 running towards your own village and that you heard several rounds of

8 gunfire in Drinjaca, and you were convinced that all the Muslims in the

9 Dom had been killed, had been shot.

10 Now, explain this to me, please: How were you able, wounded in

11 that way, hit in the hip, and after this burst of gunfire this second

12 time they shot at you and you say you were hit in the shoulder on that

13 occasion, first of all, how were you able to escape without being seen if

14 they continued these killings as you say in the Dom? How were you able to

15 escape?

16 A. Well, fate wanted me to escape. That was my destiny. When they

17 shot me in the back, this buffers gunfire, they said that they had run out

18 of ammunition and then they said there were several more cases of

19 ammunition in the Dom. But it seems to be my fate that I was able to

20 escape and stay alive. How I managed to do that, it's very difficult for

21 me to explain, very difficult. But as I say, the situation was such, and

22 that was my destiny. I managed to escape. They went to get some more

23 ammunition, and that's how it happened.

24 Q. All right. But you were wounded in the hip and then there was

25 this other wound that was serious in your shoulder. You managed to run

Page 21453

1 and escape, to flee; is that right?

2 A. Yes, but I clutched my arm to my body, and the bullet didn't hit

3 me in the bone when it hit my hip. It was an exit/entrance wound. It

4 went through my flesh. And as I say, I was hit in the flesh and not in

5 the bone. Had I been hit in the bone, I probably wouldn't have been able

6 to run away.

7 Q. All right. The people who were in the Dom, in the cultural centre

8 in Drinjaca except you, let's leave you aside for the moment because you

9 say you didn't have any weapons, you weren't active in any way, is it

10 possible these might have been Muslim soldiers in the Dom who had been

11 taken prisoner during the attack launched by the Muslim forces on the

12 villages that we mentioned? Is that possible? Or is it not possible?

13 A. Well, that's a good question, Milosevic, the attack by Muslim

14 forces.

15 Q. I said: Was it perhaps the Muslim soldiers that were arrested --

16 JUDGE MAY: Just deal with the question if you would. Don't get

17 angry, because it won't help. The question is: Were there any Muslim

18 soldiers in the Dom or not?

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Absolutely not. They were all

20 civilians. And some of them who did have weapons, were in possession of

21 weapons, handed them over. So they became civilians.

22 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

23 Q. And were executed.

24 All right. Now, as you've just said that and we have the records

25 of the agency for research of Bosnia-Herzegovina, you state that when

Page 21454

1 leaving the hall, you saw about 50 Chetniks holding their rifles cocked at

2 you and that at one point Osmanvic Mehmed cried out, "Let's escape or

3 we'll all be shot." And that you started running in different directions,

4 and they started shooting at you. And that is page 00444845, paragraph 3.

5 They are the minutes dated the 2nd of November, 1996, of this

6 organisation. So they are taking you out of the Dom building as a group

7 altogether, to send you off where they said they'd be sending you. Then

8 this man Mehmed Osmanvic says, "Let's escape or we'll be shot," and you

9 start dispersing and escaping, they start shooting, and some people were

10 shot and killed. Is that how it happened?

11 A. Well, I have to clarify my answer to you your question. When we

12 were within two or three metres and saw the soldiers lined up, the ones

13 who were going to shoot at us, that's when he told us to run but at the

14 same time they ordered the soldiers to shoot and we were shot down at that

15 very place. I don't know that anybody succeeded in escaping. What I do

16 know was that the people in the group with me were taken out of the mass

17 graves. Their bodies were. They were identified and given a proper

18 burial later on.

19 When I got up from that place, and this was for several seconds, I

20 saw piles of dead corpses lying around me. So this was two to three

21 metres from where the execution took place and they had already been lined

22 up six or seven metres away from us. So I can't imagine that anybody

23 managed to start running because they started shooting straight away.

24 Q. They started shooting when you started to run or did they start

25 shooting -- I'm reading your statement, Witness, so I'm trying to

Page 21455

1 establish what actually happened, because what you say did not happen. I

2 don't have a single piece of evidence --

3 JUDGE MAY: Let's have -- let us start again. Which page is it in

4 the statement so the witness can understand what you're putting. I don't

5 know if someone can give me the paragraph number. I can't see the

6 reference to this man saying, "Let's escape."

7 What page of the statement is it, Mr. Milosevic?

8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I have it at page 00444845,

9 paragraph 3. It is the minutes dated the 2nd of November, 1996.

10 JUDGE MAY: It sounds as though it the accused is referring to

11 some other document, not the statement.

12 MR. GROOME: Yes, Your Honour. I believe he's referring to a

13 statement taken of the witness by the Bosnian authorities. We're seeking

14 to get a copy of that now. It's not in the statement.

15 JUDGE MAY: Very well. Well, let's not waste any more time. Yes.

16 Now, what is the particular question you want to ask,

17 Mr. Milosevic?

18 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

19 Q. Well, he described how when they went out of the hall they saw

20 about 50 Chetniks standing round about with their rifles cocked at them,

21 and that this man Mehmed Osmanvic shouted out, "Let's run or we'll all be

22 killed." And this is placed in inverted commas, this "Let's run."

23 JUDGE MAY: Let's take one thing at a time. Did Mehmed Osmanvic

24 shout out as described?

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, he did shout out, but not as he

Page 21456

1 says once we'd left the hall. It was two or three metres from where the

2 execution was to take place. That's what I said. Not as soon as we left

3 the hall. It is true that the soldiers were there and that their numbers

4 were the ones I had -- have quoted and that they stood right around this

5 area below the hall, to the left of us. When we were within two or three

6 metres of them, the casualties there, the victims where the executions had

7 taken place, he knew that the same thing would happen to us as had

8 happened to the previous groups, and he said, "Let's run, people, or we'll

9 be killed. We'll die." But nobody actually started running because there

10 was a burst of gunfire from six or seven soldiers who were shooting at us

11 from a distance of six or seven metres. Not as we left the hall. I said

12 precisely the way it was, and I don't want to comment on this any more

13 because I was there, not him, and I said what happened. So we were within

14 two or three metres of the execution site. They started shooting straight

15 away.

16 Now, whether somebody tried to run and escape, there was a big

17 burst of gunfire. They started shooting at us. I didn't try to run. I

18 just shielded my eyes and fell to the ground straight away because they

19 were shooting at all of us, and I said that all these people were found

20 dead in the mass graves. They didn't have a chance to escape. They were

21 killed there on the spot.

22 JUDGE MAY: Very well. Yes, Mr. Milosevic. Now, time is running

23 out. You've exceeded your time anyway, but you can ask one or two more

24 questions.

25 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Page 21457

1 Q. All right. We'll check what actually happened in due course, but

2 let me just ask you this: In view of the fact that there seems to be a

3 great deal of confusion as to the occurrence: Is this possible? Could it

4 perhaps have been a retaliation of the inhabitants of the surrounding

5 villages because of the crimes that had been committed earlier on and the

6 ones I mentioned? Perhaps that is what happened, because it is impossible

7 that somebody actually ordered an execution of the prisoners of war or

8 civilians. So I'm trying to establish what did take place, Mr. 1455.

9 A. Well, I can tell you this, let me put it this way, I didn't see a

10 single neighbour of mine physically abusing people or shooting people,

11 executing them, which means that I reject this observation that there

12 could have been a retaliation or revenge of any kind. I said that in my

13 area, our inter-human relations were so good that it was very rare to see

14 such good relations prevailing anywhere else in Bosnia-Herzegovina. Our

15 relations were very good. So I absolutely reject this idea that it could

16 have been revenge.

17 The plan was to kill everything that was Muslim, military-able

18 men, and to transfer the women and children towards Tuzla, to destroy

19 their houses, and to eradicate all trace of their ever having lived there.

20 Q. You said that you stayed in Stanimir Mladenovic's house, a Serb,

21 until the morning, then you continued to the village of Mijatovo across a

22 hill where you come across some 20 Serbs from Kostjerovo wearing the

23 uniforms of the former JNA and they were armed;, is that?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. So you came across 20 Serbs from that village. They were not

Page 21458

1 members of the JNA, I assume; is that right?

2 A. But they wore that kind of uniform, and also Radovan Mladjenovic

3 who was in Drinjaca on that day. He was in the hall at the cultural

4 centre, the Dom Kulture and I found him there among the other group. Now,

5 whether they were neighbours, whether they actually belonged to the

6 Yugoslav People's Army, the reserve force, I can't say. I don't want to

7 enter into that system of yours, what the setup was in the army but the

8 fact was, that they were wearing olive-green uniforms.

9 Q. Yes, that's quite clear to me. Now, you say that you told them

10 what happened to you, that they were shocked when they heard that the

11 people had been killed. That's right, isn't it? At least that's what

12 you say; right? And that they gave you something to eat. They tended to

13 your wounds. That's right, isn't it?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. So if they were shocked by what had happened and what you had told

16 them, they gave you food to eat. They tended to your wound. Can you then

17 assume that they actually took part in what happened there? Because you

18 say that there was somebody who had been in the hall who was with them.

19 A. Yes. I found Radovan Mladjenovic there who was my schoolmate and

20 one of my closest friends in my childhood up until our army days and the

21 aggression. He was in the hall. He said, "I left before those men who

22 were going to do what they did arrived." And he said, "I'm so sorry,

23 neighbour, as to what happened and the condition you're in, but I left

24 before all that happened." And of course they gave me food, and I'm

25 grateful to them. And they dressed my wounds. But in the end I paid a

Page 21459

1 very heavy price for all that.

2 Q. I have to hurry because my cross-examination will be stopped. You

3 said that Milan Ignjatovic, known as Mico, a Serb, approached you and sat

4 next to you and said, "Don't be afraid, I'll take you to Paljevici and 1

5 kilometre before Paljevici he cocked his rifle behind his back you heard

6 it and then you started running. He shot. He opened fire. He was a

7 metre behind you. Surely it is clear that he didn't intend to kill you.

8 A. Let me give you this answer: He did accompany me, but I always

9 went two or three steps in front of him. And he carried a rifle, and he

10 said that he would see me off to the Muslim village of Paljevici which

11 still hadn't been occupied. And when we arrived about a kilometre from

12 that village, there were meadows, and as I was walking, I was looking at

13 the village in front of me. He stopped behind me. He was about seven or

14 eight metres behind. He cocked my rifle. Out of fear I screamed? I

15 said, "No, Mico." He was ready to shoot. I lay down. He opened fire,

16 and he opened fire at me.

17 If he had intended to do me a favour as a neighbour, he could have

18 said, "I've been given an order to kill you because you are a witness of

19 that execution. I will fire into the air, and you run." He could have

20 said that. That is what he should have told me rather than chasing me

21 around through the woods. And wounded as I was, I ran. I acquired some

22 sort of unbelievable strength, because I was fighting for my life. And

23 that is how it happened.

24 Q. How could he tell you that he had received orders to kill you if

25 he hadn't received such an order? And how is it that he wanted to kill

Page 21460

1 you if he didn't shoot at you? Or did he shoot at you and miss all those

2 times?

3 A. He did shoot several times, but he missed each time.

4 JUDGE MAY: This must be your last question, Mr. Milosevic.

5 You're well over time.

6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I have several more questions.

7 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

8 Q. You say that Murat Sabanovic and Alija Ahmetovic were killed in

9 the village of Kostjerovo and Muriz Zahirovic in Soptonik. So they were

10 not killed in the Dom, were they? This is on page 7, paragraph 9. So

11 they were not killed at the cultural centre.

12 A. Yes, that is true. They were not killed there. I said that they

13 were killed on that day resisting, according to information of some people

14 who were watching from the woods, who resisted arrest. They were shooting

15 at them to stop, stop. They ran. They opened fire, and they killed them.

16 And those men were found several days later where they were killed, and

17 they were buried.

18 Q. In a statement for TV Sarajevo, you said that the only people who

19 arrived were Dautovic and Hasan Alic. And now giving a statement to the

20 opposite side, in the list of those killed you said that that same Hasan

21 Alic was killed under number 14, when were you telling the truth?

22 A. That is his grandfather. Hasan Alic is his grandfather.

23 JUDGE MAY: One at a time. Yes. Let the witness continue.

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It is true that on the list there

25 are two men with the same name, Hasan Alic. He was the grandfather. And

Page 21461

1 there was a grandson whose name was also Hasan. It is customary in our

2 parts for the father to give his son the name of his father. So there may

3 be an understanding -- misunderstanding. There's Hasan Alic, the

4 grandfather and Hasan Alic, the grandson.

5 JUDGE MAY: This is going to be your last question. You're well

6 over time, ten minutes. So ask your last question.

7 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

8 Q. I just want to specify this point: In your statement to the

9 opposite side, you gave the names of those killed, but in your statement

10 to the aid agency in BH, you say that you know the names, first and last

11 names, of people killed only from Kostjerovo, whereas the list of the

12 others was received by you from someone else. So that is not your own

13 knowledge but somebody else's knowledge. 00444848, second paragraph of

14 the report dated the 2nd of November.

15 In your statement for TV Sarajevo, you say that it was dark and

16 that you couldn't recognise anyone. Where did you get these names from

17 then?

18 A. I have an answer to that question, sir. I listed most of the

19 people from my village by their first and last names. I don't know of the

20 actual surnames of some people from my village because it's a large

21 village. I know people by sight. We know one another, but I wasn't

22 really interested in their first and last names because some of them are

23 older than me. But it is true that I listed the names of only those I was

24 a hundred per cent sure of. As for the names of the others, I was given

25 them by their relatives. I had to give the commission their right first

Page 21462

1 and last names, and I didn't want to do any guesswork, so I got those

2 names from their relatives and family members.

3 JUDGE MAY: No, no, Mr. Milosevic. You've had beyond your time.

4 Mr. Tapuskovic.

5 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, for Witness B-1455,

6 I have no questions

7 Re-examined by Mr. Groome:

8 Q. Sir, I have just a few questions for you. How much time

9 altogether were you in the Dom Kulture centre, from the time you were

10 first put in there to the time you were taken out to be shot?

11 A. I spent a total of about nine to ten hours.

12 Q. During that nine to ten-hour period of time, did any member of the

13 local Serb community come into that hall and talk about retaliation or the

14 necessity of retaliating against those 91 men for crimes allegedly

15 committed by Muslims? Did anybody ever address you in that fashion?

16 A. I said that in the hall, there were several of our neighbours, but

17 on no occasion did I hear any one of them say, "These people need to be

18 shot." They didn't say that.

19 Q. My final question, sir, is: Would the execution of the 90 men

20 from that hall on that day as you've described, would it have been

21 possible without the participation of the people you have described as

22 being members of the JNA, of Arkan's unit or Chetniks? Would it have been

23 possible if those people were not present to participate in that?

24 A. Well, of course not. I always said that we were on good terms

25 with our neighbours, that there was no reason to do any such thing. This

Page 21463

1 is confirmed by the fact that our people are returning to those villages

2 and starting afresh. And again, they are on good terms with their

3 neighbours. I hope you understand what I meant to say by this.

4 MR. GROOME: I have nothing further.

5 JUDGE MAY: Witness B-1455, that concludes your evidence, and

6 you're free to go, but thank you for coming to the International Tribunal.

7 I'm sorry you were detained over the weekend, but thank you for remaining

8 and giving your evidence to us. Just wait until the blinds are down and

9 then you can go.

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, too. I wish you success

11 in your work.

12 [The witness withdrew]

13 JUDGE MAY: Yes. We'll leave the blinds down for the next

14 witness.

15 MR. NICE: Then may I have a couple of minutes private session

16 before he comes in?

17 JUDGE MAY: Yes, of course.

18 [Private session]

19 [redacted]

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17 [Open session]

18 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session.

19 MR. NICE:

20 Q. Witness B-1098, did you on or around the 4th of April of 1992

21 return from where you had been living and working to an area, part of

22 Zvornik municipality?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. And at about the end of April 1992 or the beginning of May did

25 some soldiers from Tuzla, from the Tuzla garrison of the JNA, take part in

Page 21468

1 the disarming of Muslims in your area?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. How did they do that and what did they say?

4 A. They came to seize the weapons and said that nothing would happen,

5 that there would be no war, that the arms should be surrendered, that they

6 would seize weapons from the Serbs as well. We handed in the hunting

7 weapons we had. However, they never seized the weapons from the Serbs.

8 They did from us.

9 Q. The soldier leading this exercise came from where, did he say?

10 A. The soldier -- this soldier was from Valjevo. I know that because

11 when a woman handed in her husband's pistol, her husband was working in

12 Germany, and she said, "What am I going to do now? I have no pistol and

13 no husband." And he said, "Come to me with Valjevo and you'll be fine."

14 Q. Valjevo is in Serbia. On the 29th of May, 1992, did you receive a

15 warning? If so, from whom and to what effect?

16 A. Yes. Allegedly some paramilitary units had come close to our

17 villages and that it was better for all of us to be in Klisa, all of us

18 from these 13 Muslim villages, to gather there, and that is what happened.

19 And this was conveyed by Vlado to an uncle of mine, and that is how we all

20 gathered in Klisa.

21 Q. At that stage, did you see military formations in the surrounding

22 hills?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Could you see what sort of military formations they were or not?

25 A. To be quite sincere, I couldn't because it was far away. But you

Page 21469

1 could see them over there.

2 Q. Did you notice a car passing through a village with men in

3 military uniform? If so, tell us about the uniforms and about the sign on

4 the side of the car.

5 A. The vehicle had the marking of the CPO, and the uniforms were SMB,

6 olive-grey in colour.

7 Q. Were those of you gathering in Klisa sent a message by the Serbs

8 as to what you should do?

9 A. In Klisa, we were promised that the UNHCR and the Red Cross would

10 come, and I don't know which other international organisations, and that

11 those same people would be escorted in the direction of the village of

12 Medjedje, which is in the direction of Tuzla.

13 MR. NICE: Your Honour, I stand that on tab 2, Medjedje is either

14 the place marked as Medjedje on the left of the highlighted part of the

15 map pretty well immediately to the left of centre slightly above Klisa but

16 to the left nearly at the extremity of the map. "Mededa," as it reads.

17 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

18 MR. NICE: I'm sorry.

19 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

20 Q. Witness B-1098, on the 1st of June, what did you discover about

21 the village where you were all gathered?

22 A. We expected the Red Cross to come and the international community.

23 However, the army wearing SMB uniforms, camouflage uniforms, and some

24 troops even had masks on their heads, they were there and they started

25 shooting into the air in the village.

Page 21470

1 Q. Roughly how many people as refugees were there now in this

2 otherwise very small village of Klisa?

3 A. About 4.000.

4 Q. From -- you've described the uniforms that you saw. From those

5 uniforms, what were you able to infer as to the units represented at this

6 operation at Klisa?

7 A. Judging by their uniforms, they were members of the JNA, the local

8 Serbs, and I don't know who else it could have been because they wore

9 masks over their faces.

10 Q. At the crossroad at Klisa, what armament did you see?

11 A. At a crossroads I saw two tanks standing there.

12 Q. The tanks being tanks of which force?

13 A. The Yugoslav People's Army.

14 Q. How well or otherwise were the soldiers armed and with what sorts

15 of weapons?

16 A. They had automatic rifles. They had light machine-guns. Some of

17 them had hand-held rocket launchers, Zoljas and Osas as we call them.

18 Q. Do you recall seeing any paramilitary insignia on any of the

19 uniforms?

20 A. I didn't see any. I didn't really have time to see.

21 Q. After these forces shot in the air, what were you obliged or what

22 did other people do and then what were you all obliged to do?

23 A. All of us, people who were in their houses came out in the street,

24 and we were shepherded towards the crossroads where the two tanks were.

25 Q. And then what did the soldiers compel you all to do?

Page 21471

1 A. Then they started searching. First we had to leave our cars,

2 because we were told we could take our tractors, our farming equipment

3 because the UNHCR would take care of us. But all that had to be left

4 behind. We just were able to carry our bags. However, even those bags

5 were searched there.

6 Q. In which direction were you compelled to move?

7 A. We were moving from Klisa towards Djulici.

8 Q. Of the 4.000 at Klisa, how many were compelled to go on that

9 route, all or any sum?

10 A. All of them.

11 Q. How well supervised and guarded were you on that journey and how

12 long was the journey?

13 A. We went along the road, and they went on either side of the road

14 holding their weapons, and this took about an hour or two until we reached

15 Djulici.

16 Q. You've spoken of the two tanks at the crossroads. Did you see

17 anything of those tanks or other tanks along the road to Djulici?

18 A. No.

19 Q. The place where you were searched, what armaments were present

20 there?

21 MR. NICE: Paragraph 11, Your Honours.

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Automatic weapons.

23 MR. NICE:

24 Q. To your knowledge, whether in or outside your sight, to your

25 knowledge was anybody killed on the way between Klisa and Djulici?

Page 21472

1 A. I heard later that two persons had been killed.

2 MR. NICE: Paragraph 12.

3 JUDGE MAY: When you get to a convenient moment.

4 MR. NICE: It's a new topic, paragraph 12.

5 JUDGE MAY: Yes. We will adjourn now.

6 Witness B-1098, we're going to adjourn for 20 minutes. Could you

7 remember in this and any other adjournment there may be in your evidence

8 not to speak to anybody about it until it's over, and that does include

9 the members of the Prosecution team.

10 We will adjourn now, 20 minutes.

11 --- Recess taken at 10.32 a.m.

12 --- On resuming at 10.57 a.m.

13 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Nice.

14 MR. NICE:

15 Q. Witness B-1098, when you reached Djulici, what did you see by way

16 of forces there?

17 A. When we arrived in Djulici, we saw uniformed men, men wearing

18 camouflage uniforms, men wearing uniforms of the Yugoslav People's Army,

19 police uniforms, and some men also wore masks on their faces.

20 Q. Your inference as to who the people were wearing masks was what?

21 A. Well, you know, they wore masks. They wore masks. I think that

22 they were local Serbs, because if their faces were revealed, then we'd

23 know who they were.

24 Q. Although our map doesn't show it, is there another village Bijeli

25 Potok close to and effectively connected to the village of Djulici?

Page 21473

1 A. Yes, it is connected to the village of Djulici.

2 Q. Were you all gathered together in the area between Djulici and

3 Bijeli Potok where the men were separated from the women and children?

4 A. Well, as the column was coming in from the village of Klisa as we

5 were arriving to the road by Djulici, we were ordered to raise our hands,

6 and then we were taken to the trucks in two columns, and then they

7 separated old men, women, and children onto a meadow.

8 Q. The other men, what happened to them?

9 A. They were ordered into trucks, from 16 onwards. They even

10 included a man who was 70 years old.

11 Q. Before I come to what happened to the men who were boarded onto

12 the trucks, paragraph 15 of the summary, can you help us please in brief

13 with what happened to the villages? First of all, were at least four

14 villages, Djulici, Luga, Setici and Klisa amongst the places that had been

15 evacuated? Just yes or no to that.

16 A. They weren't only evacuated from these villages, there were 13

17 Muslim villages there that were evacuated.

18 Q. Thank you. So far as the homes in two of those villages, I think

19 Setici and Klisa, were the homes actually destroyed, whereas in other

20 villages, for example, in Djulici and Luga, which doesn't show up on our

21 map but it shows up under another name, I'll come to that, in those other

22 villages, Djulici and Luga, were the homes left intact so that Serbs could

23 move into them?

24 A. Not a single house was touched in Djulici. The -- whereas in the

25 other villages they were destroyed, but in the yet remaining villages that

Page 21474

1 have a Serb population only, nothing happened.

2 MR. NICE: Your Honour, I understand that what the witness might

3 refer to as Luga is marked as Lupici on the map slightly south-east of

4 Djulici.

5 Q. Witness B-1098, in Djulici, were homes of Muslims occupied by

6 Serbs from a particular village in Zivinice, and if so, can you give us

7 the name of that village?

8 A. Djulici, Rakoda, Lupici, Mrkodo, Musici, this is where people from

9 Brnci near Zivinice moved in.

10 Q. I move to paragraph 16. The men who were boarded onto the trucks

11 which I think had been parked in Bijeli Potok, on your way to those

12 trucks, were there further searches of the men?

13 A. They took away my passport and also my foreign exchange bank

14 account book.

15 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please repeat the second

16 sentence. The interpreters did not manage to catch it.

17 JUDGE MAY: Could you repeat, please, the second sentence there.

18 You say they took away your passport and your foreign exchange book,

19 foreign exchange bank account book.

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

21 JUDGE MAY: Was there anything else?

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Not at that moment, no.

23 MR. NICE:

24 Q. How many trucks, how many packed were the men on those trucks?

25 A. I saw three trucks, and I think that all the men were packed into

Page 21475

1 these three trucks like sardines. And there was a soldier up on top of

2 the truck, and then he was hitting the truck so that as many men as

3 possible would board onto the truck, and they were packed like sardines so

4 that they wouldn't jump off the truck.

5 Q. Did the trucks then drive in the direction of Karakaj? If so, at

6 what speed did they drive and for what purpose?

7 A. The trucks took us in the direction of Karakaj. They went as fast

8 as they could. I think that this was done in order to prevent anyone from

9 jumping off the truck, and if the speed was that extreme, then --

10 Q. Can you recall now what uniforms were worn by the soldiers

11 involved in packing these trucks and guarding them as they were guarded on

12 the way to Karakaj?

13 A. I already said awhile ago that they wore uniforms that were

14 olive-grey and that they had masks on their faces.

15 Q. At Karakaj --

16 A. And they also had camouflage uniforms some of them.

17 Q. At Karakaj did the trucks stop outside the Karakaj Technical

18 School?

19 A. Yes.

20 MR. NICE: Your Honours, tab 3. The Court will see by noticing

21 the road on the left-hand side marking Bijeljina to the bottom and Zvornik

22 to the top that the map is not orientated north/south but south/north.

23 The version that Your Honours have because of what appears in the bottom

24 right-hand corner should be under seal. The version being displayed on

25 the sanction system is a redacted version that doesn't contain those

Page 21476

1 details.

2 Q. Looking at this map, B-1098, did the -- doesn't much matter

3 precisely where, but did the trucks stop on the road from -- on the

4 Bijeljina-Zvornik road?

5 A. They turned a bit to the left from the road to Zvornik. There was

6 a supermarket there before. I don't know whether it still exists. And

7 then there's this other road that leads in a different direction. It is

8 shown here on this sketch though.

9 Q. And what happened to the men in the trucks?

10 A. They ordered the men to jump off the trucks. There were soldiers

11 lined up there. They wore all kinds of uniforms, and they said where we

12 were allowed to move. And this also shows the door to the hall that they

13 forced us into. While men were jumping off the trucks, they tried to

14 escape as much as possible the blows that these soldiers were

15 administering to the men, but then the old men had a pretty rough time.

16 Q. Were there some Serb women in the area? If so, what were they

17 doing?

18 A. They were on the left-hand side of the Zvornik road, and they were

19 shouting, "Get the balijas. Kill the balijas."

20 Q. The plan, the redacted plan, tab 3, on your screen shows the

21 technical school building into which -- or the hangar into which you were

22 all driven. First of all, roughly how many men were forced into this

23 building?

24 A. All 700. All the approximately 700 people who were there.

25 Q. The plan here drawn by you shows the hangar in three rooms, from

Page 21477

1 the left room 3, to the right room 1, and above it room 2. Taking matters

2 shortly, was there initially a screen, an iron sheet of a screen between

3 rooms 2 and room 1? Were you all introduced first into room 1? Did you

4 break the screen down, some of you, in order to make more space available

5 so that room 2 could also be used?

6 A. Yes, that's the way it was. And we did manage to break it down.

7 And that's when we managed to get some water so that we could have some

8 water to drink.

9 Q. There being water available in room 2 only, I think; is that

10 correct?

11 A. Yes, in room number 2. That's the only place where there was

12 water.

13 Q. You're not in a position, of course, to name all 700-odd men, but

14 you were in a position to name a number of people known to you who were

15 included in those within the hangar. Have you signed a list which will

16 become Exhibit 456, tab 7, I think, under seal if Your Honour pleases, and

17 does this list which you looked at and signed this morning contain the

18 names of some people, 39, I think, who were included with you in those

19 rooms?

20 A. That's true. It does contain the names of all these people.

21 Q. Did you spend five days in the hangar, from the 1st to the 5th of

22 June?

23 A. Yes, five days we spent there. I spent five days there.

24 Q. On the first night, did people die just simply from suffocation

25 because they were crammed into a space too small and because, among other

Page 21478

1 things, the weather was extremely hot?

2 A. Well, the first day when we got there, they locked us up. I even

3 had the impression that they turned the heating on. It was just so hot.

4 And that's when we broke the tin sheet down, and we had some water to

5 drink. And then in the morning when they were transferring us to yet

6 another room, I saw that about 20 men were lying there dead, which means

7 that they all died from the heat.

8 Q. I think you have the names of two men who you believe died from

9 the heat. If so, can you give us the names just of the two men who died?

10 Paragraph 25.

11 A. Hrustan Avdic and Nesad Hamzic.

12 Q. You were given these names by someone else. I'm not going to ask

13 you the name of the person who gave you those names. You're in a position

14 to help further perhaps in private session if anybody needs that

15 assistance.

16 Paragraph 26. On the second -- on the second day, the first

17 morning after your arrival at this hangar, were you moved from room 2 into

18 the room on the left, room 3, and in that movement did you have to pass a

19 desk that you've marked on the plan as "interrogation desk"?

20 A. Yes. In the morning they transferred us from room 1 to room 3.

21 That's where there was a desk near the door, and the rest had lined up

22 there. And as people would go out, then they would stop by the desk and

23 then they'd ask you whether you handed in all your money, documents, your

24 gold, your jewellery. And now when they asked me personally, I said, "You

25 took away everything I had." He jumped up. He wanted to hit me. I

Page 21479

1 managed to dodge the blow though. However, another one hit me in the back

2 and then threw me back in line.

3 They were hitting us with sticks. They were hitting us with

4 truncheons, all sorts of things. When they saw that I was semiconscious,

5 then they pushed me into the room that is marked as room A here. And I

6 think that the rest fared more or less the same way I did.

7 MR. NICE: The witness is, I think, referring to the position

8 marked --

9 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

10 MR. NICE: The witness is referring to the position marked A in

11 the bottom left-hand portion of room 3.

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

13 MR. NICE:

14 Q. Witness B-1098, I'm sorry if it may seem repetitive, but we need

15 to know this from time to time, the guards who were conducting the

16 interrogation, who were taking the property and who were beating people as

17 they moved into room 3, how were they dressed, please?

18 A. They wore camouflage uniforms. I noticed one in olive-grey too.

19 But believe me, I didn't really have time to look at them. People were

20 moaning, crying out of the terror, the suffering, all these terrible

21 things that were going on. Because if you started saying something, then

22 they would start shooting in the air, and then you'd bow your head and

23 then you wouldn't dare even look up. And it was only when they would say

24 that you could look up that you did.

25 Q. How many armed soldiers were there in room 3 and with what were

Page 21480

1 they armed?

2 A. The armed soldiers were up in the corner before the desk and

3 behind the line-up. I -- on one desk I saw a machine-gun, and the others

4 had automatic rifles. There were about four or five of them.

5 Q. How injured, and if so, permanently or otherwise as a result of

6 the beating you received?

7 A. Well, my rib was broken on the left-hand side, and I was also hit

8 in the head. That's when I passed out.

9 Q. Did you then spend four days in this room?

10 A. Well, we spent a total of three days in that room. Well, no.

11 Yeah, it comes to four days, yes, because in the morning the next day, we

12 were transferred to the other room.

13 Q. In the course of your time in room 3 were people taken out on a

14 selected basis from time to time?

15 A. From time to time, they were calling out the names of the people

16 who were a bit better off. And then they would sometimes kill them

17 immediately, take them back to room number 1, and then gunshots would be

18 heard. And then the same men were returned and say, you, you, you, and

19 you. They would mention the names of four persons because they needed the

20 corpses to be carried out. I don't know where they carried them. Then

21 they returned these prisoners among us. And then we'd whisper among

22 ourselves and then we'd hear that those other people had been killed and

23 carried out somewhere.

24 Q. Was there any questioning before the killing of these particular

25 selected detainees?

Page 21481

1 A. Well, they were asking them to confess something, but no one had

2 anything to confess. They were looking for money and gold as I said

3 awhile ago. These were people who were a bit better off. They had shops.

4 They had worked abroad, and they were looking for their money and their

5 gold.

6 Q. Are you able to give the names of some of the people who were

7 taken out and killed from room 3?

8 MR. NICE: Paragraph 31 of the summary, Your Honour.

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can mention Hasan Avdic, Ramiz

10 Sinanovic, Nurija Jasarevic, Avdo Jasarevic. I could see them as they

11 were being taken out.

12 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

13 MR. NICE:

14 Q. Paragraph 29. Just yes or no to this, please: Were you also

15 aware of a man being taken out of the building and being taken back to his

16 home village in order that he could find property to hand over to the

17 soldiers? Just yes or no to that at this stage.

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Was the property that he handed over a hunting rifle? Just yes or

20 no.

21 A. Yes.

22 MR. NICE: Your Honour, again I don't think -- the name could be

23 given in private session, and it can be pursued further if anybody needs

24 to. Otherwise, it's not necessary for me to deal with that detail.

25 Q. Paragraph 32. Did you see people actually killed in room 3? If

Page 21482

1 so, give us a name or names.

2 A. In room number 3, they killed Osman Smajlovic. They said, "Who's

3 the one who builds mosques?" And somebody else said, "This is the one."

4 And then on of them walked up to him and fired a few gunshots into him

5 from a pistol and then he was carried out.

6 They killed a father and a son I think they were who had tried to

7 go elsewhere. They thought that they could go out, but then they returned

8 and then they started shooting from this corner up here, and they killed

9 the two of them as well. I don't know their names though.

10 Q. How many people in all do you calculate were killed in the time

11 that you were at this hangar, the four or five days you were at this

12 hangar?

13 A. Well, my free estimate would be about 180 men plus some who were

14 taken to be exchanged allegedly in Sarajevo.

15 Q. Let me turn to those immediately. Paragraph 33. Was this on the

16 3rd of June? And just give an explanation of what happened, please.

17 A. Well, they came only once. They said, "We need 25 people to be

18 exchanged in Sarajevo." It wasn't that there was any roll-call. Those

19 who were right by the wire, they simply walked out. And I saw among them

20 Ismet Ahmetovic from Klisa.

21 Q. Has he ever been accounted for since?

22 A. None of them have ever been accounted for since.

23 Q. In your time in room 3, did you learn what shifts the soldiers

24 were working and get something about the number of soldiers per shift?

25 A. Well, they had three shifts consisting of eight soldiers

Page 21483

1 respectively.

2 Q. What, if any, provision of food was there?

3 A. Sometimes they would throw in a few loaves of bread among us. And

4 then when people would manage to grab a bit, they would eat it. They

5 would also throw in some tins, but then we had nothing to open the tins

6 with.

7 Q. Paragraph 36. May we go into private session for just a couple of

8 sentences, please.

9 [Private session]

10 [redacted]

11 [redacted]

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Page 21484

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Page 21485

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24 [redacted]

25 [Open session]

Page 21486

1 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session.

2 MR. NICE:

3 Q. So far as you were concerned, Witness B-1098, were all the guards

4 present in the hangars involved in the killings of people there or only

5 some or can't you say?

6 A. I think all of them were.

7 Q. On the 5th of June, did the guards inform you that your position

8 was to change? If so, what did they tell you?

9 A. They told us that we were going and that some buses would be

10 arriving shortly and that we would be taken for an exchange by Odzak way.

11 I'd never been to Odzaci myself but that's where they said we were going.

12 We never arrived in Odzaci. We arrived in Pilica.

13 Q. Odzak is a village I think in the direction of Brcko? And the --

14 A. Yes, that's right.

15 Q. And the buses on which you travelled were the buses of which firm?

16 A. The buses belonged to the Drinatrans firm.

17 Q. When you got to Pilica, the Chamber will be already familiar with

18 this, it's at the top part of the map and it actually marked as Donja

19 Pilica. When you got to Pilica, what happened there?

20 A. Well, the buses were stopped there because that centre is on the

21 left-hand side. They stopped the buses and we moved round about where

22 there was a door. You had to go right the way round to the door there.

23 And then those that remained alive, we were all pushed into that hall.

24 Q. How were you guarded? What were the uniforms of those guarding

25 you?

Page 21487

1 A. Well, this is how it was: Nobody actually guarded us there. The

2 doors were shut, and just the holes where you could see the film. And

3 somebody would come in from there or throw in something. They would throw

4 actually loaves of bread and tins through that hole where the camera

5 sometimes was.

6 Q. Did they say anything as they looked at you through that hole or

7 threw food for you through that hole?

8 A. Well, all I remember is that a woman said that if her brother were

9 killed, she would kill all of us. She threatened us from up there.

10 JUDGE MAY: What was the building that they were put into? Can

11 you explore that, please.

12 MR. NICE: My error for not making it clear.

13 Q. What was the building into which you were placed in Pilica?

14 A. It was a cinema hall.

15 Q. And what you've been describing as the place through which they

16 threw bread was the projection room or something like that?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Before we -- before we move on, would the Chamber be good enough

19 to turn to tab 4 of Exhibit 456, which is a record of the Drinatrans coach

20 company. The witness has the original to view, and indeed there's nothing

21 to stop its going on the overhead projector to reveal the sort of records

22 that were kept of what was being done. It's on the Sanction. Thank you

23 very much.

24 There are two entries we're going to be looking at on this, but

25 the first one is for the 3rd of June where it refers to Zvornik-Djulici

Page 21488

1 and back, settling of refugees. And although -- sorry. And then the

2 next -- and then the 5th of June we see Zvornik-Djulici and back, settling

3 of refugees. On the 5th of June. And then we see the 5th of June,

4 Zvornik-Pilica and back, transport of prisoners.

5 Can you comment on the consistency of these entries, which of

6 course you haven't seen until recently, with the movement you've

7 described, please?

8 A. Well, what you mentioned on the 3rd of June, Zvornik-Djulici and

9 vice versa, these could only be refugees from Brnci, from Zivinice. Then

10 the 5th of June, Zvornik-Djulici and back and the settling of refugees,

11 that mean the same. It was just that they settled in stages. And as for

12 the 5th of June, Zvornik-Pilica, that entry, that was us, those of us who

13 were taken to Pilica.

14 Q. Paragraph 43. On the 3rd day of your detention in Pilica, did the

15 guards come and tell you that your condition was to change again?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. What did they tell you, and what happened?

18 A. Well, what happened was that they opened the door and told us to

19 line up and form a column moving towards the back of the hall and that we

20 should come forward one by one. The truck was waiting outside, and there

21 was a table, a desk at which a man was sitting writing the names and

22 surnames and our father's names as well. He was entering the names.

23 Q. What was it said was going to happen to you?

24 A. They said we'd be going to Zivinice for the exchange?

25 A. How many men boarded this truck?

Page 21489

1 A. I got into the first truck and I was among the last. And I know

2 that when he completed the list there were 64 of us, and he said, "That's

3 enough. 64 is sufficient."

4 MR. NICE: Your Honour, I think it preferable that the names the

5 witness can give at the end of paragraph 44 be given in private session

6 with your leave.

7 [Private session]

8 [redacted]

9 [redacted]

10 [redacted]

11 [redacted]

12 [redacted]

13 [redacted]

14 [redacted]

15 [Open session]

16 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session.

17 MR. NICE:

18 Q. Was the tarpaulin on this truck, which I think was a two-tonne

19 civilian truck, pulled down and did the truck drive back in the direction

20 of Karakaj and nowhere near the place where you could have expected to be

21 exchanged?

22 A. Well, that's the same direction from Karakaj towards Zivinice the

23 truck was a two-tonne truck. That's how I call it. I don't know what

24 others call it. And it had a tarpaulin covering the top. And they had

25 fastened the belts and we stayed in the truck. But there was a sort of

Page 21490

1 hole through which they failed to pass this belt. And you could see

2 through the hole. The person that was down there could look through the

3 hole. So we knew the direction we were going in.

4 MR. NICE: Your Honour, my understanding is that Zivinice is off

5 to the left of the map, and if -- I didn't mean to mislead the witness.

6 Maybe the first part of the journey would have gone in the same direction,

7 but it's a matter of detail and we'll move on to what happened at Karakaj.

8 Q. En route to Karakaj was the truck escorted, and if so by what?

9 A. It was escorted by the police with that rotating light that they

10 have on top.

11 Q. Back at Karakaj, were you brought to the same area that you had

12 been in before at the technical school?

13 MR. NICE: Tab 5 for the Chamber.

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

15 MR. NICE:

16 Q. The same general area. Not to the same precise place, the same

17 general area?

18 A. Brought to Karakaj.

19 MR. NICE: And if Your Honours look at tab 5, again the original

20 must be under seal. A redacted version is being displayed by computer

21 system on the screens at the moment, and the orientation is different

22 again by 90 degrees, but the Chamber will recognise the configuration of

23 roads on the right-hand side of this map with the configuration of roads

24 on the top left-hand side of tab 3 if it needs to match one to the other.

25 Q. When you got to Karakaj, to what building did the truck take you?

Page 21491

1 A. It took us to Gero's slaughterhouse. After I escaped, that's what

2 I learnt from those people. When I describe where we were, they said

3 that's what it was called, Gero's slaughterhouse.

4 Q. And this plan of yours, our Exhibit 456, tab 5, shows it as being

5 on the opposite side of the road from the technical school hangar and

6 beside the garages of the transport company or coach company Drinatrans;

7 correct?

8 A. Yes. Yes.

9 Q. On arrival, how close to the building was the lorry parked, and

10 describe the method by which the tarpaulin was adjusted so that the 64 of

11 you could be moved from the lorry into the building.

12 A. When they wanted to park the lorry, they reversed it towards the

13 doors of the building, and then one of the people that had been captured

14 said, "Well, take all the killed outside." And they put the -- drove the

15 truck up to the doorway. They looped the ropes through the tarpaulin, and

16 you had to jump out. And as you jumped out, you were straight into the

17 hall. So one group had to go to the right. The rest had to go to the

18 left. And I don't know whether they put anybody into the premises that

19 were further away, but I was in the right-hand side of the hall.

20 Q. Jumping out in that way directly into the building, the plan of

21 which we'll see in a second, did that mean you had no or no substantial

22 view of the area immediately outside the building?

23 A. No.

24 Q. Did you learn by one means or another that the -- both from

25 yourself and also from other things you may have been told or seen at the

Page 21492

1 time, did you learn of what was in fact outside the building from which

2 you were kept by being funneled into the building directly from the

3 tarpaulin?

4 A. Well, I said a moment ago that the people were killed while the

5 truck was reversing towards the building. One of the soldiers said,

6 "Everybody out," and they were all shot. And that's how we realised that

7 we would be killed too.

8 Q. And you mark the slaughterhouse on the plan as A, recording the

9 fact that it's close to a Muslim settlement; correct?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Can we turn now to Exhibit 456, tab 6.

12 JUDGE KWON: Microphone.

13 MR. NICE:

14 Q. Can we turn to Exhibit 456, tab 6. Again, the original exhibit

15 under seal, a redacted version being displayed. And if we look at the

16 left-hand part of this sketch, does that show an end view of the building

17 with the door into which you were funneled with below it a concrete fence

18 or wall? On the right-hand side does it show the inside of -- the inside

19 plan of the building going through the door in the middle of the bottom of

20 that little oblong with two rooms, room 1 on the right as you've described

21 it, and room 2 on the left?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. As you went into room 1, tell us what happened and please give the

24 description of any uniform of the soldiers who were involved.

25 A. I went into room 1. The rest went into the -- into room 2. I --

Page 21493

1 as I said, I don't know if anybody went into room A. And suddenly they

2 said, "Turn your heads toward the wall," which we did. And then a burst

3 of gunfire started. People fell down. I was -- I also fell down. And

4 then they killed the others in the other rooms or, rather, in room number

5 2.

6 I know that in room 1 there was a man who was wounded in the lower

7 extremity of his body. He entreated them to kill him, but they didn't

8 want to. One shouted out and said, "I've got enough ammunition. Why

9 don't you kill him?" And the other one said, "I don't want to shoot. Let

10 the balija suffer." I was still conscious then, and I heard this exchange

11 between these two men.

12 As far as the uniforms are concerned, it was a soldier. He was 19

13 or 20 years old, a nice looking young man. He was a soldier of the

14 Yugoslav People's Army. He had curly hair. He might have been 170 -- to

15 170 centimetres tall.

16 Q. Did you notice indeed his cap and what markings he had on his cap?

17 A. He did wear a cap. The normal cap worn by the Yugoslav People's

18 Army with a star on it at the forehead.

19 JUDGE MAY: Can we have it clarified as to who this man is?

20 MR. NICE:

21 Q. The man you're describing as a guard in this room, was he a man

22 who did any of the killing or not?

23 A. Who do you mean by the guard? I didn't quite understand your

24 question.

25 Q. The guard you've just described.

Page 21494

1 A. No, they weren't guards. They just brought us there to kill us.

2 Q. And so to answer His Honour's question --

3 A. As far as we were --

4 Q. To answer His Honour's question, the man you've described, the

5 young man, curly hair and the cap with the star, what did he do? Did he

6 engage in the killing himself?

7 A. Well, he personally killed these people down there. As to

8 the others, I don't know who killed them, but I know he killed the group

9 that I was in because he came in the door. Our backs were turned -- we

10 were facing him first of all and then he ordered us to face the wall. And

11 that's how I happen to remember him, and he's in my memory still.

12 Q. You fell down but in fact had not been shot; correct?

13 A. I hadn't been hit then, no.

14 Q. Were you able to hear what happened in room 2?

15 A. All I heard was groaning and moaning and crying. That's all I

16 heard. And of course the shooting.

17 Q. After the remark that you told us about of the guard who declined

18 to kill the balija who -- the man he described as a balija saying he

19 should suffer, what did the guards do? Where did they go?

20 A. As I was still conscious, I could hear everything they were

21 saying. They said, "Switch the motor on and we're going to get next lot."

22 So they switched the engines on of the truck and they went off.

23 Q. Did you check your surroundings to see if there was anybody else

24 left behind?

25 A. Well, I said a moment ago that the person that entreated the

Page 21495

1 people to kill him, he just made a motion. He didn't say anything, but he

2 just asked me, indicating with his head, "Where are you going?" And I

3 just told him that I was going outside. I went into the hall. There was

4 nobody around. There was just a concrete wall. I had to pass through a

5 wheat field and went beyond that into a meadow and some high grass where I

6 hid.

7 Q. On your way from the building and across the wall, were you able

8 to see if there were bodies around?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. And remind us, your truck of people who went into the building was

11 the first truck to come from the cinema hall where you'd been detained?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Escaping across the wall and being able to hide yourself in a

14 meadow, did you see or hear the same truck coming back on one or more

15 subsequent occasions to this building?

16 A. They came back two more times in the course of the day.

17 Q. On each of those occasions, what did you see or hear of what they

18 did?

19 A. I just heard bursts of gunfire in that same building.

20 Q. And on the basis that the same number of people were in the lorry

21 on each occasion, your calculation is that how many people were brought

22 there for killing in the course of this particular day?

23 A. Well, 64 would make it 192.

24 Q. If that figure is right for those or approximately right for those

25 brought to this building for killing, that would have left on your

Page 21496

1 calculation approximately how many people in the cinema hall in Pilica?

2 A. About 300.

3 Q. To your knowledge, have those people ever been accounted for

4 since?

5 A. I heard some not too reliable information that they had been

6 killed by Branjevo way. And this was on the 11th of June for the Muslim

7 holiday Bajram.

8 Q. Included in the people left behind at the cinema hall in Pilica,

9 were there, just yes or no to this, relations of yours, your brother and

10 your father?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Assuming that the lorries coming back -- the lorry coming back on

13 the two occasions was bringing people from the cinema hall, you're not in

14 a position to say one way or another whether your brother and father would

15 have been on the lorry on either of those two occasions?

16 A. No.

17 Q. But is the position this: That your father and brother have not

18 been accounted for since?

19 A. That's right. They have not been accounted for. We don't know

20 what happened to any of them.

21 Q. Did you learn of one other man who it was said had survived

22 presence at an attack in the slaughterhouse? If so, what was his name?

23 A. Yes. One in the third group survived. However, he was killed

24 during the war. And his name is Vejsil Hamzic.

25 Q. Paragraph 54. We may be able to take this part of your history

Page 21497

1 comparatively briefly, B-1098, did you leave the area of your hiding and

2 walk north, seeing peeking working in the fields so that you hid by day

3 and moved by night?

4 A. I went along the Drina River, and I got closer to the bridge

5 across which the trains go to Serbia, but there were guards up there on

6 the bridge, so that I hid in the bushes and waited for darkness to fall.

7 And when night fell, I crossed the rail tracks where they were on the

8 ground, and I headed towards where the Sapna River flows into the Drina

9 River. And from there --

10 Q. Pausing there for a minute because we don't need to pursue the

11 geography of your movements too closely, but at that junction of the two

12 rivers, did you notice a tank?

13 A. Yes. As I was wandering around in the night, I came across a kind

14 of kiosk. It was lit up, and I got to ten metres from the tank. When I

15 noticed it, I moved off towards the left. And when I got close to the

16 river, I saw a body. It was dressed in jeans, top and bottom. It was

17 lying down. I fled from there and hid in a haystack. It was almost dawn

18 by then.

19 Q. You spent a day in a haystack, camouflaged, and in the course of

20 that day did you see on several occasions a man who came with different

21 people but to whom that man gave the same account?

22 A. I didn't see him because I was hiding in the hay. I just left a

23 hole to be able to breathe. And then two or three or four times he was

24 bringing some people, and I remember the name. Sane. Look where I was

25 and look where he is. I shot him and killed him. And this one said, "Why

Page 21498

1 didn't you slit his throat?" And he said, "When I got there, he was dead

2 so why would I do that?"

3 Q. In the course of your movements did you find yourself walking some

4 degree in circles so that you came back near to the spot where you had so

5 nearly been executed yourself? Did you hide there and did you notice two

6 vehicles in the area?

7 A. True enough. I got lost during the night thinking that I had

8 reached the Sapna. In fact, I had gone back towards of the path to

9 Kozluk. So I got close to the same place where I was actually executed or

10 an attempt was made to execute me.

11 Q. And the two vehicles you saw there were what?

12 A. A loader and a lorry parked there. And just then I noticed them

13 putting the tarpaulin across the sides, not over the top. So I assume

14 that they were loading bodies. Now, where they drove them to, I have no

15 idea.

16 Q. And the vehicle that you describe as a loader, was that something

17 that had a mechanism that could load or move a substantial amount of

18 earth?

19 A. It can push the ground, raise it up, and unload it onto a truck.

20 Q. By your calculation, the date on which you saw this loader and the

21 lorry with the tarpaulin would be what? What day in June?

22 A. It would be the 10th of June.

23 Q. Did you then move to a nearby bridge where you hid in a bush, and

24 from that position were you able to hear some soldiers who were with a

25 dog, but did you hear the soldiers discussing Muslim men and women?

Page 21499

1 A. That is true. I hid in the same place I had hid in the first

2 time, and again I waited for night to fall. I saw two soldiers. The

3 bridge was lit up. I couldn't pass across the water or the bridge. There

4 were lights everywhere. And I saw two soldiers leading a dog on a leash,

5 and I heard their conversation. One said, "You should see how many Muslim

6 men and women they have brought. We will have plenty." I don't want to

7 use the word that they used regarding the women, but that's what they

8 meant. "We'll have plenty to you know what."

9 Q. Did you spend that night in a forest and the following day find

10 yourself in formerly Muslim territory that had been cleansed, as it is

11 described, so that you thought it comparatively safe to be walking there,

12 and then did you find yourself in an opening in the forest in sight of two

13 men?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Did you surrender to those two men because they required you to do

16 so, and where did they take you?

17 A. There may be an error there. I was caught by one, but I saw two

18 others on a clearing. I was hiding from those two, and I went through the

19 forest. How I didn't look carefully, and this man had a gun. He said,

20 "Hands up." And I did, and then he took me to these other two up there.

21 And there were three women with them.

22 Q. In the event you were able to escape from them by throwing a bag

23 you had at them and running away; is that correct?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. At the time you did that, had one of the men left to make contact

Page 21500

1 with a local organisation?

2 A. Yes. There was like a small radio station or a Motorola, and he

3 couldn't reach the Crisis Staff from there so he had to climb up to a

4 little hill. And I asked him to release me. And when he left and I asked

5 them to let me go, but they wouldn't. I threw the bag at them, and I ran

6 away about 300 or 500 metres, and only then I heard two or three shots,

7 but they weren't close by.

8 Q. Do you know which particular Crisis Staff he was going to contact

9 or not?

10 A. In Celopek.

11 Q. You moved on from this area, paragraph 60, and there came a time

12 when you saw two Serbian soldiers near to you, I think.

13 A. That's true. I was hungry. I hadn't eaten for days. I climbed a

14 cherry tree to pick up cherries. The village had been cleansed from

15 Muslims. I thought there was no one there. So I was more relaxed knowing

16 the area. And I was eating these cherries, and I heard a branch break. I

17 turned around and saw two men in camouflage uniforms. I jumped up, and

18 they shot at me and they wounded me. Nevertheless, I ran into a stream.

19 I turned right, then I turned back towards them again but not using the

20 same route but in that same direction.

21 Q. And eventually to cut this story short, eventually you were able

22 to reach free territory and ultimately to be treated for the bullet wound

23 you'd sustained, in the Tuzla hospital?

24 A. These two couldn't find me though they wanted badly to slaughter

25 me, but thank God I managed to reach free territory, and I was in Tuzla

Page 21501

1 undergoing treatment for a month.

2 Q. Thank you very much. You will be asked some further questions.

3 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Nice, do you have any evidence coming as to

4 whether those people who were shot in the room with the witness as to

5 whether their bodies were recovered and any forensic evidence?

6 MR. NICE: Just one minute.

7 [Prosecution counsel confer]

8 MR. NICE: I think Your Honour's question is directed to that

9 category of evidence we've had elsewhere where mass graves can be

10 connected or might sometimes be connected to the evidence of killings of

11 this kind, and the answer to that question is not yet, but there are

12 further inquiries under way at the moment.

13 There is another witness who can also deal not in that way but in

14 another way with this particular execution.

15 JUDGE ROBINSON: Because in my view, the method of killing is a

16 matter for consideration in relation to the crime. I want to ask the

17 witness.

18 Witness, can you tell me, you fell unconscious. You were not

19 shot, but had you been hit by a bullet? Am I to take it you had been hit

20 in the back?

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I wasn't hit anywhere at that time.

22 JUDGE ROBINSON: No. Yes, I know you were not hit, but had you

23 been hit, can you say where you would have been hit? Would you have been

24 hit in the back part of your body or on the front? Because earlier you

25 said that you were all told to line up and to face the wall, and I believe

Page 21502

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3

4

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6

7

8

9

10

11

12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

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24

25

Page 21503

1 you also said that as soon as your backs were towards the guards, they

2 started shooting. So what I want to find out is when the shots were

3 fired, where were you facing? Were you facing the wall along with the

4 other men?

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was facing the wall.

6 JUDGE ROBINSON: I think that's as much as I can get. Thanks.

7 JUDGE MAY: Cross-examination after the adjournment. Twenty

8 minutes.

9 --- Recess taken at 12.09 p.m.

10 --- On resuming at 12.33 p.m.

11 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Milosevic, you have one hour and a half to examine

12 this witness.

13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I am not sure that that will be

14 sufficient for me, but we'll see later on, Mr. May.

15 Cross-examined by Mr. Milosevic:

16 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. 1098, let us begin with where you stopped and

17 then we'll go back to the beginning of your testimony.

18 A moment ago, you explained to Mr. Robinson that you were all

19 facing the wall, that they had ordered you to face the wall; is that

20 right?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Were you lined up in a row and all of you facing the wall?

23 A. Everyone was facing the wall, all around.

24 Q. Could you describe that for me, please?

25 A. I described it when I said that we were lined up against the wall

Page 21504

1 and we were told to face the wall.

2 Q. And there was a total of 64 of you that had got there, so about

3 half of you were in that room; is that right?

4 A. Yes, approximately.

5 Q. So around 32 of you.

6 A. I don't know about the third room. I said a moment ago I don't

7 know how many people were in that third room. I can't say how many of us

8 were in the room I was in exactly.

9 Q. And how many soldiers entered in that room with you?

10 A. Not a single one of them. They were at the door.

11 Q. I see. Fine. Will you please be kind enough and provide the

12 sketch on the ELMO, the sketch drawn by this witness with those two rooms

13 that the alleged execution took place in.

14 JUDGE MAY: Tab 6, I think.

15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Place it on the ELMO, please.

16 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please. Your Honour, microphone.

17 JUDGE MAY: I'm sorry. It can't go on the ELMO, but it can go on

18 the Sanction and we can have it on our screens. It's on there now.

19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Not that sketch, the bigger one

20 showing the two rooms.

21 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Mr. Nice, can you help as to what the accused is

22 talking about?

23 MR. NICE: I think it's tab 3.

24 JUDGE MAY: Tab 3. Right. Try tab 3.

25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes. There's a room on the right

Page 21505

1 and another one on the left. I remembered it from the ELMO. That is not

2 the sketch.

3 MR. NICE: Tab 6 then.

4 JUDGE MAY: Yes. That's the one. That's the one where the crime

5 took place. The other one was of Karakaj and where he was detained.

6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] He was showing the sketch of the

7 building that he called Gero's slaughterhouse, and on the ELMO there was a

8 sketch showing those rooms.

9 JUDGE MAY: There it is. If you -- look on the screen and you'll

10 see it.

11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation].

12 Q. So this is apparently -- A must be the rooms to the left and the

13 right; is that right?

14 A. Yes.

15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could you please magnify that

16 sketch? Enlarge it, please.

17 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

18 Q. Now, will you please look at that sketch. You were in room number

19 1.

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And it's a room 3 by 3 metres; is that right?

22 A. Roughly so.

23 Q. Now, explain to me, how is it possible that in a room 3 by 3, 30

24 and more men can be lined up against the wall?

25 A. As far as I remember, Mr. Milosevic, I described it differently.

Page 21506

1 Q. How did you describe it? Would you be kind enough to tell me,

2 because I assume if a room is 3 metres long and 3 metres wide and you say

3 some 30 men were lined up against the wall, how is it possible to put so

4 many people in that room which is 3 by 3?

5 A. I said that one group went to room number 1, and I was there too,

6 and the others went to the room to the left. How many went up there, I

7 said I didn't know, in room marked A.

8 Q. What you are saying is impossible?

9 A. It is possible.

10 Q. That there were about 30 of you in that room. Were there 30 of

11 you in that room or not?

12 A. I didn't count them, Mr. Milosevic.

13 Q. You didn't count them, but a moment ago you answered my question.

14 A. I didn't answer in the way you put it.

15 Q. Very well. Then explain to me, please, since what you said or

16 drew here was impossible, did you draw these sketches?

17 A. I did.

18 Q. Is that your handwriting?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. And you wrote in the words in English?

21 A. I just drew it out first. Now, who drew it in in English, I don't

22 know. I didn't.

23 Q. So you just drew the lines, and the words were written by someone

24 else?

25 A. Yes. "3 by 3," and "number 1," and "3 by 3," "number 2," and the

Page 21507

1 "Corridor," I did I it but in Bosnian.

2 Q. Very well. So you were executed in that room with a group of some

3 30 men. Then you explained that you fled from there because when the

4 soldiers left, no one was guarding the building. There were no men around

5 there, were there?

6 A. There were only dead people outside.

7 Q. But no guards or anyone else. It was abandoned because they went

8 to fetch some others; is that right?

9 A. They turned on the engine of the truck. I heard them do that

10 and say, "We're going to get the next lot." And when I was leaving, there

11 were no guards there.

12 Q. Very well. And then you watched behind the wall as they brought

13 the truck back twice.

14 A. I didn't say behind the wall. I said from the spot where I was

15 hiding.

16 Q. So you saw the truck coming back twice repeating the same

17 procedure?

18 A. The truck came twice, and bursts of fire could be heard twice

19 again.

20 Q. However, in the meantime as there was no one there, it means that

21 they used this same room three times, a room 3 by 3, brought some other

22 men in there. So in the end, about a hundred people were executed in that

23 same room 3 by 3?

24 A. Not necessarily. They could have executed them outside.

25 Q. But you said that the same procedure was repeated.

Page 21508

1 A. I never said that they were brought into the room. I just heard

2 the truck arrive, and I heard bursts of fire.

3 Q. Very well. You say that now. A moment ago, you put it

4 differently. Tell me, please, you were in the first truck and then they

5 brought two more trucks. This truck that you say 64 of you were brought

6 in; is that right?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. As you yourself said, it was a two-tonne truck.

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Do you realise that it is absolutely not possible to put 64 men

11 into a two-tonne truck even if they were sitting on each other's heads?

12 Do you know what a two-tonne carrying capacity is? You know how much

13 space it has, to put in two cubic metres of goods on it? Why did you make

14 that up? Tell me, please.

15 A. Why don't you ask me a specific question.

16 Q. My specific question to you is --

17 JUDGE MAY: What is the point of it? Just a moment. What sort of

18 a truck it was, does it really matter? We are dealing with immensely

19 serious events here. The massacre of hundreds of people, and whether they

20 went into a two-tonne or three-tonne truck really cannot matter. This

21 sort of detail does not assist. I mean, you're not suggesting, are you,

22 that this witness made this up?

23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May, you cannot put a litre of

24 water into this glass. As for a two-tonne truck which has its own

25 dimensions that are easy to establish, it is simply impossible to board 64

Page 21509

1 men onto that kind of a truck. That's what I'm saying, because I'm saying

2 that this witness did invent what he said.

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's not true.

4 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

5 Q. Let's proceed. Did you say that they took everything away from

6 you the first time and then that the next time they were trying to take

7 everything away from you so they took everything away from you?

8 A. Yes, Milosevic, even my wife and children.

9 Q. You didn't have anything with you?

10 A. Nothing. Nothing, absolutely. They separated my wife and

11 children, and they executed me.

12 Q. All right. But since they took everything away from you twice,

13 how come you had a bag in your hands ultimately, that you threw away --

14 that you threw at these people so that you would frighten them and then

15 you could run away?

16 A. It's not a bag. It's a mere shopping bag, a plastic shopping bag.

17 I found it in Karakaj. I put my shoes and my jacket into that plastic

18 shopping bag and I carried it with me. It was raining at the time so I

19 wanted to change my shoes.

20 Q. To change your shoes?

21 A. Yes, yes, I wore these big rough shoes because my feet were wet

22 because of the rain.

23 Q. All right. I understand that you didn't have anything on you.

24 A. I said that down there in Karakaj, in a house, I found -- in a

25 Muslim house I found a jacket and these rough boots and that's what I

Page 21510

1 wore. And I put my own shoes into this plastic bag.

2 Q. On page 2, paragraph 4 of your statement, you say that as a

3 worker, you were employed in a Belgrade company, or rather, two.

4 A. Two. But I don't want to mention them here.

5 Q. And this is the period of 1975 to 1992?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. So that was all of 17 years?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. You worked in Belgrade?

10 A. Yes, in Belgrade. Well, not all of it was if Belgrade. Some of

11 this time was in Russia.

12 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for the accused.

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

14 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

15 Q. Practically for 17 years you stayed --

16 JUDGE MAY: We're being asked to slow down so that the microphone

17 could be operated. Could you, both of you, wait until the other has

18 finished. And if the witness would make sure not to speak before the

19 accused's microphone has gone off. Yes.

20 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

21 Q. You spent 17 years in Belgrade?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Tell me, throughout this time as you worked in Belgrade companies

24 during those 17 years, did you have any problem whatsoever because you

25 were a Muslim?

Page 21511

1 A. No.

2 Q. You say on page 2 in paragraph 6 that when the war started you

3 came from Belgrade to your village. I'm not going to refer to the name of

4 the village because this question was dealt with in closed session at the

5 very beginning of this hearing. And you came to celebrate Bajram; is that

6 right?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. When did you come to the village exactly?

9 A. I think it was the 3rd of April. Approximately the 3rd of April.

10 Q. All right. So you did not return from Belgrade because the war

11 had broken out. You went there to celebrate Bajram with your family; is

12 that right?

13 A. It is true that I came to celebrate Bajram.

14 Q. Is it correct that the reason for your departure from Belgrade was

15 that you were going home for a few days to celebrate Bajram and that's

16 what you told your superiors at work; right?

17 A. Well, in the company, we never said that. This happened to be a

18 Thursday and Friday, I think. So that's how we went home over the

19 weekend.

20 Q. You said, "I'm going home for the holiday now"; right? For

21 Bajram. And that was the reason, wasn't it?

22 A. Well, I said just awhile ago during the weekend. Every weekend

23 practically we went home.

24 Q. Did anybody make problems for you in this respect if you wanted to

25 go home and celebrate the holiday, things like that? Did people object in

Page 21512

1 any way to that?

2 A. Objections were made on the day when we left Belgrade,

3 Mr. Milosevic. Buses were returned from the customs on the highway. They

4 were returned to Belgrade.

5 Q. What was that?

6 A. We were returned from the customs on the highway, and we returned

7 to Belgrade.

8 Q. I didn't notice that. How did you manage to leave then if you

9 left -- if you had to go back to Belgrade?

10 A. We found a Lasta company bus and went via Obrenovac.

11 Q. All right. Tell me, since you claim that you returned when the

12 war broke out, your neighbours, your Serb neighbours, warned you that the

13 situation was becoming dangerous as far as I can see from this statement

14 of yours.

15 On the basis of these warnings that the situation was becoming

16 dangerous, you went to Klisa; is that right?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. This actually means that then when you went towards Klisa, in your

19 village there were no conflicts and no war operations at that time; is

20 that right?

21 A. There was shooting. There was individual gunfire, but not in the

22 village itself.

23 Q. Who are these local Serbs who warned you about this danger, that

24 there was some kind of danger? Can you tell us that?

25 JUDGE MAY: If you want, we could go into private session to do

Page 21513

1 that.

2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, only if he knows how to answer

3 this question. If he can't answer it, then there's no need to go into

4 private session.

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think that I've already said this

6 once.

7 JUDGE MAY: Let's go into private session.

8 [Private session]

9 [redacted]

10 [redacted]

11 [redacted]

12 [redacted]

13 [redacted]

14 [redacted]

15 [redacted]

16 [redacted]

17 [redacted]

18 [redacted]

19 [redacted]

20 [redacted]

21 [redacted]

22 [redacted]

23 [Open session]

24 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session.

25 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Page 21514

1 Q. On page 2, in paragraph 6 you say, "Most of the Muslims from my

2 village fled to Klisa. Among others, my family and I." Is that right?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Tell me now, since your Serb neighbours warned you that there was

5 some kind of danger, you actually heeded this warning and you left the

6 village. You didn't have to flee before anyone; right?

7 A. Mr. Milosevic, we were told to take cars and to take some food,

8 and whoever had a tractor or any other kind of vehicle, to get food and to

9 go to Klisa because the UNHCR and the Red Cross would come and accompany

10 us to Medjedje.

11 Q. Tell me, did anybody expel you from your village?

12 A. Well, as soon as this order was issued, it means that we were

13 expelled.

14 Q. My impression was that somebody told you that there was some kind

15 of danger, and you didn't check this. You simply left. It's not that

16 somebody came and said, "Now, leave the village."

17 A. Yes, sir, but we were told that we would get killed because some

18 paramilitary units had come.

19 Q. Yes. Well, I didn't notice that in your statement either, so I

20 cannot establish how it was that you left your village.

21 You claim that on the 1st of June, 1992, to your total

22 astonishment you realised that the paramilitary units and the JNA had

23 totally surrounded the village of Klisa and that had you known that, as

24 you say, you would have tried to escape to free territory, as you had put

25 it, rather than waiting for the Chetniks to come and capture you. Is that

Page 21515

1 what you stated?

2 A. I said a short while ago that we were told that the UNHCR and the

3 Red Cross would come. However, it is true that the Chetniks came and

4 surrounded the village.

5 Q. All right. First of all, tell me who are these Chetniks? Do you

6 mean by that word the members of a particular formation or is this the way

7 that you are referring to the local Serbs?

8 A. I mean everybody who killed innocent people.

9 Q. All right. Please, on page 3 in paragraph 1, you explain who was

10 who, and this is what you say, I am quoting you: "I think that soldiers

11 in olive-grey uniforms were members of the regular forces of the JNA and

12 soldiers in camouflage uniform were local Chetniks."

13 Is that what you stated?

14 A. Well, to tell you the truth, I called both Chetniks.

15 Q. Oh, all Serbs?

16 A. No, not all Serbs. There are good Serbs too.

17 Q. Oh, there are good Serbs. But in the preceding statement --

18 sentence in the statement quoted to you, you say that you did not

19 recognise a single soldier, any member of the paramilitary formations, but

20 nevertheless, you say that Chetniks in camouflage uniforms were local

21 people.

22 A. I claim that because they were wearing masks on their faces.

23 Q. And on that basis you came to the conclusion that they were

24 locals?

25 A. Precisely. That's why I came to that conclusion.

Page 21516

1 Q. How did your locals get these masks?

2 A. It wasn't only masks. There were plain socks too, the ones that

3 had slits for the eyes only, black ones.

4 Q. But you say they were members of the JNA.

5 A. That is what I claim.

6 Q. I can see from your statement that you also did your compulsory

7 military service in the JNA, and it was even more than ten years before

8 all of this; is that right?

9 A. It is right. I did my military service in the JNA, but I served

10 in Tito's army.

11 Q. And in that year, in 1992, you were also a reservist of the JNA,

12 weren't you?

13 A. I was never called up in the reserve force, and I never had an

14 assignment.

15 Q. You didn't have an assignment but you know that others who, for

16 example, did have an assignment, who were Muslims just like you, that at

17 home they had these same olive-grey uniforms that had been issued to them,

18 and they had them at home, the same uniform like the JNA had. Is that

19 right or is that not right?

20 A. I'm just speaking in my own name. And who was issued with what, I

21 don't know. I just know that the police had automatic weapons and that

22 they were taken away from them.

23 Q. You don't know that reservists had these uniforms that were quite

24 the same, that they were the same like the JNA uniforms, reservists in

25 Yugoslavia before the war broke out regardless whether they're Serbs,

Page 21517

1 Muslims, Slovenians, Macedonians? Do you know that?

2 A. I think I know that the uniforms were the same before the war

3 broke out.

4 Q. And on the basis of what are you saying then that members -- that

5 people in olive-grey uniforms were members of the JNA if they could have

6 been territorials or reservists or anybody else who had that kind of

7 uniform or who had been issued with that kind of uniform?

8 A. I claim that because these were very young men, youths.

9 Q. And on the other hand, there weren't any youths in the army of

10 Republika Srpska and the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina? Did these armies

11 consist of elderly men only?

12 A. At that time, the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina did not even exist, I

13 think. There was only the Yugoslav People's Army along with the reserve

14 force as you mentioned it awhile ago.

15 Q. Please, these events that you testify about, when did they happen?

16 The beginning of June; isn't that right?

17 A. It is true, yes, the beginning of June. On the 1st of June, not

18 the beginning of June. The 1st.

19 Q. You mentioned dates between the 1st and 10th of June. That is the

20 time period about which you are testifying; isn't that right?

21 A. I refer to the time between the 1st and 12th of June.

22 Q. The 1st to the 12th of June. And do you know that the JNA along

23 with its units left the territory of Bosnia-Herzegovina by the 19th of

24 May, 1992?

25 A. I don't know about that.

Page 21518

1 Q. All right. In response to one of my previous questions, you said,

2 as you had stated, that you would have escaped from Klisa and gone to free

3 territory as you had put it had you known that instead of the Red Cross

4 and the UNHCR it would be the Serb forces that would come in; is that

5 right?

6 A. It is true that I would have fled, but there was a roadblock down

7 there. From Klisa quite a few people managed to flee through the woods

8 into free territory.

9 Q. All right. Tell me, what was this free territory in 1992 at that

10 time, now that you've called it the free territory?

11 A. I call it the free territory, and by this I mean the territory

12 where these paramilitary formations did not come, and I don't believe that

13 these paramilitaries or the army, not only Seselj's men, Arkan's men, but

14 only where people were defending themselves, when they realised what was

15 going on in other parts of the village.

16 Q. All right. And who controlled the territory that you refer to as

17 the free territory? In the military sense of the word, who controlled it,

18 this free territory of yours, the one you refer to as the free territory?

19 In the military sense and all other senses, who held it under their

20 control?

21 A. That territory was held by the locals of the other villages.

22 Q. The locals, the local inhabitants? Is that it?

23 A. Yes, that's right.

24 Q. All right. And when you say free territory, do you mean territory

25 without Serbs? Is that it?

Page 21519

1 A. I never said that.

2 Q. All right. But you as a Muslim who spent 17 years in Belgrade

3 went home to celebrate the Bajram holiday and not because of the war,

4 we've established all that, that's what you've said, and now you refer to

5 free territory, which means territory under Muslim control. Is that what

6 you mean when you say "free territory"?

7 A. As far as I remember, I said that I arrived on the 3rd of April

8 and there was no Bosnia -- no war in Bosnia at that time.

9 Q. So you came to the free territory after that. That's why I'm

10 asking you. That's what you say.

11 A. I used the term "free territory" in order to denote the regions

12 the locals put up a resistance.

13 Q. All right. And do you know of a single place in Podrinje, I mean

14 Podrinje in Bosnia-Herzegovina. I'm not thinking about Podrinje in

15 Serbia. So do you know of a single place in Podrinje where there were no

16 Serbs, in which Serbs were not residents?

17 A. Can you repeat that question, please.

18 Q. In Podrinje, in the territory of Bosnia-Herzegovina, is there a

19 single place without Serbs living in it?

20 A. Yes, there are quite a few places, actually.

21 Q. You mean individual villages?

22 A. Yes, individual villages.

23 Q. All right, please. Does that mean that the Serbs from that

24 so-called free territory were expelled to some other territory by someone

25 who -- which was free territory for them, just like this territory was

Page 21520

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Page 21521

1 free territory for you?

2 A. Who expelled them, I don't know. But, yes, it's true that that

3 did exist too. I wasn't there then. I was being executed at the time,

4 Mr. Milosevic.

5 Q. Well, tell me, who could have expelled them from that territory?

6 A. I said a moment ago that I don't know because I was in the camp,

7 sir.

8 Q. All right. You were talking about the fact that the Serb refugees

9 from the Zivinice area had for the most part come to your region, those

10 who had fled from the Zivinice area. So what did they flee from?

11 A. You would have to ask somebody from Zivinice that.

12 Q. All right. Then tell me, please, and I'm talking about your

13 personal experience, you mentioned Zivinice, the Serb refugees from

14 Zivinice and so on and so forth. Is it true that it was due to these

15 conflicts in that civil war that the Serbs and Muslims, so both the Serbs

16 and the Muslims, in an effort to save their lives and parts of their

17 property would go to neighbouring territory, whether it be near or far,

18 territory which was under the control of their compatriots? That's right,

19 isn't it? That's your experience and quite obviously it's also the

20 experience of the other refugees that you mentioned. You mention the

21 refugees from Zivinice in this case.

22 A. I wasn't in Zivinice at that time, but I know 100 per cent that

23 the same people from Brnci to Zivinice came to settle in these villages,

24 Bijeli Potok, Lupe [phoen], Tulici and the other surrounding neighbouring

25 villages. So nobody captured them there or killed them either.

Page 21522

1 Q. So they fled from those parts, did they?

2 A. I don't know how they happened to come. I don't know how they

3 came to be there.

4 Q. All right. You don't know, but I I'm sure you can assume that was

5 the reason. There can't be any other reason. But as you're talking

6 about -- as you're quoting figures, do you happen to know this, for

7 example: You're talking about your own village. [redacted]

8 [redacted]

9 [redacted]

10 [redacted]

11 MR. NICE: Can we redact the identifying number of the villages?

12 It's an identifying character, probably too precise.

13 JUDGE MAY: Yes. We will go into private session for this.

14 [Private session]

15 [redacted]

16 [redacted]

17 [redacted]

18 [redacted]

19 [redacted]

20 [redacted]

21 [redacted]

22 [redacted]

23 [redacted]

24 [redacted]

25 [redacted]

Page 21523

1 [redacted]

2 [redacted]

3 [redacted]

4 [redacted]

5 [redacted]

6 [redacted]

7 [redacted]

8 [redacted]

9 [redacted]

10 [redacted]

11 [redacted]

12 [redacted]

13 [redacted]

14 [redacted]

15 [Open session]

16 THE REGISTRAR: We're now in open session.

17 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

18 Q. On page 3, paragraph 2, you state the following: You claim that

19 in Klisa, on the 1st of June, there were about 4.000 Muslim refugees

20 there; is that right?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Do you know that in Klisa, which is predominantly Muslim,

23 according to the population census I quoted a moment ago there were 615

24 Muslim, which makes it a very small place; right?

25 A. I don't know how many, but quite possibly it is that figure.

Page 21524

1 Q. And in the village of Djulici, once again a predominantly Muslim

2 village there were 1.029, a total of 1.029 inhabitants which doesn't mean

3 that all of them were there at that time. Some were abroad. Some were in

4 different various other places. As you know, the population census

5 incorporates all the inhabitants, the residents regardless of whether they

6 are actually residing there at the time. Isn't that right?

7 A. Mr. Milosevic, what I'm going to tell you is this: In Klisa, from

8 13 Muslim villages, refugees were stationed there, and you don't have that

9 piece of information for all the villages.

10 Q. Well, I don't have information for all the villages but where do

11 you get this figure of 4.000 from?

12 A. Because the people were counted when they came into Klisa, and we

13 knew how many people were in Klisa.

14 Q. So the people counted them, did they? You heard that from

15 somebody, that the figure was 4.000? You didn't count them yourself, did

16 you?

17 A. Had I been in charge, perhaps I would have counted them, but I

18 didn't. Others did.

19 Q. So you heard this figure and piece of information from them.

20 That's who you got it from?

21 A. Yes, that's right.

22 Q. And you also say that none of you who had taken shelter in Klisa,

23 none the people there had any weapons, not even those Muslims who lived in

24 Klisa. That's right, isn't it?

25 A. All the people who happened to find themselves in Klisa had

Page 21525

1 weapons. Had somebody had weapons with them, they would have shot at

2 somebody.

3 Q. All right. Now, you claim that it was the Serbs who shot in the

4 air, and you say they terrorised you but that this shooting didn't last

5 long and that nobody was wounded as a result; is that right?

6 A. Yes, that's true. I said they shot up into the air. They

7 surrounded Klisa. The tanks arrived in Klisa. There were a lot of

8 soldiers round about, and it's also true that I heard later on once I had

9 escaped that two people were killed in Klisa, that is to say an elderly

10 man and woman.

11 Q. All right. Is the opposite true, though, that in Klisa and the

12 surrounding parts that there was fighting on that particular day, that

13 there were battles and an exchange of gunfire to use that mildest of

14 terms, an exchange of gunfire? Let me put it that way. Is that correct?

15 And that the members of the Muslim formations, I mean armed Muslims when I

16 say paramilitaries, they succeeded in fleeing from Klisa, in escaping in

17 Klisa precisely during that period of time, the one that you're

18 describing?

19 A. Perhaps your information is incorrect. I don't know about that.

20 Q. Well --

21 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

22 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

23 Q. Could that be the reason for which the Serbs searched for weapons,

24 why they conducted a weapons search?

25 A. They didn't conduct a weapons search. They came to loot and

Page 21526

1 pilfer and to destroy the houses.

2 Q. Well, you said a moment ago that when you had been captured that

3 they took one man home for him to hand over the weapons he had in his

4 house. So the purpose of the investigation that was conducted was to

5 confiscate the weapons that were used to fire at and for which people were

6 killed -- through which people were killed. Do you know that? Are you

7 aware of that?

8 A. Mr. Milosevic, I said quite clearly that one man was taken off.

9 He was a hunter. He had a licence to carry his hunting rifle, and he

10 didn't want to give it up, to surrender it. And the locals knew very well

11 who surrendered their weapons and who did not. So they took him home and

12 brought him back to us, to our group.

13 Q. All right. They took him home for him to give up his weapon. So

14 the purpose of that entire undertaking was to uncover arms, the weapons

15 that people had who had been detained; is that right?

16 A. The purpose was -- well, you can go on saying that, but that's not

17 true. They took innocent people off and killed them, Milosevic. That's

18 what they did, killed them down there, not in a search for weapons.

19 Q. Well, where is the sense of what you quoted then, that somebody

20 said it would be better for you to own up, to confess? What did they want

21 you to confess? Do you know how many crimes had been committed up until

22 the beginning of June against Serbs in the area, how many Serbs were

23 killed? So what did they want you to confess? They didn't want you to

24 confess your names or anything like that. What did they want you to

25 confess to, to own up?

Page 21527

1 A. Those regions, Mr. Milosevic, handed over the weapons they had.

2 It was not a fighting area. It was sorted of bypassed. They went

3 elsewhere. But we lived there without any fighting. They fought in the

4 villages further up.

5 Q. But I heard you say that there was fighting above your villages.

6 That's right, isn't it?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. So there was fighting. Battles were waged. And now I'm quoting

9 you again. You said that: "One of the Serbs who was there asked

10 whether -- whether there was anybody from Kovacevici among the detainees."

11 Is that right? I'm quoting you on that point. You said someone asked us

12 whether there was anybody from the village of Kovacevici among the

13 detainees. Is that right? You yourself said that, you were quoting a

14 Serb solder as having asked that?

15 A. Yes, that's true, and I said that there was fighting in

16 Kovacevici, the village of Kovacevici, and this particular man had been

17 wounded in the leg and he wanted to see whether there was anybody from

18 Kovacevici so he could slit their throats.

19 Q. Well, I don't know about that, but he asked whether any of the

20 detainees were from Kovacevici; is that right? Those were your very

21 words; right?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. So they were detainees, prisoners captured during that fighting?

24 Isn't that so, Mr. 1098?

25 A. Mr. Milosevic, that is completely incorrect. What you're talking

Page 21528

1 about is very far from the villages. These were loyal citizens of

2 Republika Srpska.

3 Q. Well, I assume that when he looked among the detainees, the

4 prisoners, then there were prisoners. They weren't civilians?

5 JUDGE MAY: He's answered it. He said they were civilians.

6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, I was quoting him, Mr. May.

7 JUDGE MAY: Just -- we've heard his evidence.

8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well.

9 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

10 Q. Tell me, Mr. 1098, on that particular day, who captured you and

11 took you to the hangar in Karakaj?

12 A. You want me to go back and say it. The JNA, the locals with the

13 masks on their faces so I wouldn't recognise them, people wearing

14 uniforms, those were the ones who captured us, not only myself but the 700

15 of us.

16 Q. Well, the JNA wasn't there at all at that time, but you can

17 continue claiming that if you like.

18 Now, tell me, on page 3, paragraph 7 and also this morning, you

19 said the following: You were transported in three civilian trucks. That's

20 right. That's what you said, isn't it? Is that right?

21 A. Yes, that's right.

22 Q. So in these three trucks, 750 of you were transported; is that

23 right?

24 A. I said that I just saw three trucks. Now, how many people were

25 transferred and whether more trucks turned up, I don't know that, sir.

Page 21529

1 Q. Mr. 1098, that's what you said. So that's why I'm asking you. If

2 we had three trucks with 250 people in one truck, does that seem to you to

3 be a little improbable or not, regardless of the size of the truck?

4 JUDGE MAY: He's just answered that. He said there might have

5 been other trucks.

6 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

7 Q. Very well. Physically that is impossible, but are you claiming

8 from the standpoint of what you said that there were three civilian

9 trucks, do you believe that members of the JNA used civilian lorries, that

10 the JNA uses civilian lorries?

11 A. I don't know who sent them, whether it was the JNA that gave that

12 order or maybe the head of Zvornik municipality. I don't know about that.

13 Q. I'm glad to hear you don't know that, because actually, up until

14 the 1st of June, you hadn't seen a single JNA member in Klisa, in Djulici

15 or even in Karakaj because the JNA wasn't there at that time?

16 JUDGE MAY: We've been over this. If you want to add anything,

17 B-1098, you can.

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I wanted to answer this question, if

19 I may. I never claimed that the JNA wasn't in Klisa or Djulici and

20 Karakaj. I said that they were in all three of those places.

21 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

22 Q. I'm claiming that you made that up and I'm trying to prove that.

23 But you keep saying it was the JNA were there.

24 A. You can say that if you will. You were the person issuing orders,

25 so you may know.

Page 21530

1 Q. Tell me, on page 3, fifth paragraph, you say that a total of 750

2 men were brought to Karakaj on that occasion. And later on on page 4, in

3 paragraphs 4 and 6, say you were all shut up in two small rooms.

4 A. That's quite so. Seven hundred of us. One was small and

5 another -- the other room was bigger. The other one may have been a

6 little smaller than this courtroom.

7 Q. And then you go on to claim that you were crammed in and as a

8 result 20 people suffocated?

9 A. I claim 1.000 per cent that there may have been even more than 20.

10 Q. Was there some poisonous gas released there to choke you in there?

11 A. They didn't release any poisonous gas, but I had the impression

12 that they started the central heating.

13 Q. In order to choke you probably?

14 A. To torture us, to make us suffer.

15 Q. What kind of building was it in Karakaj?

16 A. It was the workshop of the technical training centre, educational

17 centre.

18 Q. Very well. Tell me, under those circumstances, crammed as you

19 were and transported in that way and put up in that way, how did you

20 manage to count 750 under those circumstances? How did you manage to

21 count how many of you were there?

22 A. We didn't count, sir, but just like that, amongst ourselves, we

23 were making a rough estimate that there were about 700 of us, and that

24 proved to be correct later on.

25 Q. How did that prove to be correct?

Page 21531

1 A. After lists were made of the people captured.

2 Q. But you're talking about people executed. Do you know whether the

3 bodies of those executed men were found, how many bodies were found, how

4 many were established were to have been killed? From what you have said,

5 how many of those were found and confirmed as having been killed in the

6 incident you are testifying about?

7 A. Not a single was found, but, sir, there are families who came to

8 report to the Red Cross in Tuzla, and you can get the necessary

9 documentation to see how many people were killed, and not a single one has

10 been found up to this point.

11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May, and Mr. Nice is examining a

12 witness for a crime of which not a single victim has been exhumed or

13 discovered or of which there is no forensic evidence.

14 JUDGE MAY: Yes. We've got his evidence of what happened. Now,

15 have you got any more questions you want to ask him?

16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I do, of course. You gave me an

17 hour and a half, so the least I can do is make use of it. And I hope you

18 will give me some additional time.

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] May I add something? I omitted to

20 say something, sir. May I?

21 JUDGE MAY: Yes.

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] What Mr. Milosevic asked about

23 whether any bodies had been found, I had forgotten to mention that it is

24 true that some were found, but I don't know exactly how many. I forgot

25 that. But some were found. I just don't know how many.

Page 21532

1 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

2 Q. From a list of 64 men, you gave the names of four, and you don't

3 know even the names of the rest. Is that right?

4 A. You -- as you asked me yourself, I was working in Belgrade. But I

5 knew the people from my village.

6 Q. You listed the names of four men.

7 THE INTERPRETER: I'm sorry, we can't hear the --

8 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

9 Q. So you can't identify them, nor can you claim how many people were

10 killed there.

11 A. I could list 60-odd names. There's a list here of people from my

12 village, then people killed from Klisa.

13 Q. But the bodies of those killed from Klisa and from your village

14 were not found, were they?

15 A. True. From my village, they were not found, but some were found

16 that were from Klisa.

17 Q. And they don't know under what circumstances they lost their

18 lives. What is it during the war? Were they members of BH army ranks or

19 were they executed? You yourself don't know where they are.

20 A. The bodies of people that were found were executed in Karakaj.

21 Q. Why did you then, as you say that you amongst yourselves, talking

22 amongst yourselves, crammed as you were to such an extent that 20 people

23 suffocated to death you found out how many of you were there, exactly that

24 figure, that number of you were brought there? Were the reasons why you

25 knew how many were brought there this testimony of yours today, or do you

Page 21533

1 have some other logical reason to give as to how you knew exactly how many

2 of you were there though you were able to communicate only with the three

3 or four men immediately next to you as you were so crammed in there?

4 A. Mr. Milosevic, I knew exactly how many people had been captured

5 from my village, and the other people also knew for their own villages how

6 many people had been captured. So it wasn't difficult to add up the

7 figures like two and two.

8 Q. Very well. I am not very good at that kind of arithmetic, but as

9 you say that on the first night 20 people choked to death in the room that

10 you were in and that later on a relative of yours, I won't say in public

11 session how he's related to you, you gave his name, that among those 20

12 there were two men that you name, how is it possible that you didn't see

13 the two of them that suffocated but you -- you were told about them by

14 this relative subsequently? How come you yourself didn't see them?

15 A. I knew those two very well, but I didn't see them.

16 Q. Well, that's why I'm asking you. As you say you saw these men who

17 had suffocated from this pressure and lack of space later, and you are now

18 confirming that you knew them well, but you didn't see them. How is it

19 possible that you saw them, saw those that choked but you didn't see the

20 two that you knew so well?

21 A. At that point in time, I just couldn't look at the bodies. It

22 made me sick to look at them.

23 Q. Very well, Mr. 1098. You claim on page 5, fourth paragraph, that

24 in four days in Karakaj, the Serbs, as you say, killed 160 men and that

25 you remember the names of only five of this figure of 160, that you don't

Page 21534

1 remember the names of the rest because you left the area when you were 17

2 and went to Belgrade; is that right? That's what you confirmed a moment

3 ago.

4 A. During those five days, I am claiming to this very day I don't

5 wish to say that I am a hundred per cent sure of the figure, but 50 or 51

6 people from Trsic were captured, and the same man from Trsic killed all

7 the people from Trsic while they were in Karakaj. So there were 50 of

8 them alone. What about those other 20? Then another 25, they allegedly

9 drove to Sarajevo to be exchanged and those that were taken out four at a

10 time.

11 Q. So you worked it out. So you said people from Trsic who were

12 captured. Was there fighting? Was there a battle in Trsic?

13 A. They also fled to Klisa.

14 Q. I'm asking you whether there was fighting, combat in Trsic.

15 A. I'm afraid I'm unable to say. That's quite a way from me.

16 THE INTERPRETER: Sorry, we didn't hear the question.

17 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

18 Q. You didn't hear anything about fighting in Trsic?

19 A. I said that is far away from me, 15 kilometres away. How can I

20 know what is going on over there?

21 Q. But you said that 50 people were Trsic were captured. Were they

22 civilians who were captured, those 50 people from Trsic or were they

23 captured in fighting against Serb forces? Are you claiming that they were

24 captured civilians?

25 A. Civilians.

Page 21535

1 Q. Very well. In view of the fact that the killed were taken out on

2 different days, sometimes in groups of two or three, sometimes

3 individually, what kind of arithmetic did you use to reach this figure of

4 160? What you explained a moment ago, how many people were captured in

5 Trsic and then there are 20 more or 30 more, how are you claiming all

6 these things, on what basis?

7 A. Because when they took us off to Pilica in Drinatrans buses, we

8 had been almost halved or, rather, a third had been killed.

9 Q. And how do you know that?

10 A. I know because when they drove us to Pilica and shut us up there,

11 so many people were missing. One-third were missing right away, even more

12 than a third.

13 Q. Perhaps they took them off in some other direction. They just

14 weren't with you. You don't know what really happened to them.

15 A. If I could go back and have that sketch again so I can explain

16 some things to Mr. Milosevic, where they were killed, how they were

17 killed, how they were taken out, and how many of them were killed.

18 JUDGE MAY: Let the witness have his sketch. Or at least put it

19 on the Sanction may be the best way to deal with it.

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. Milosevic, the room marked with

21 the number 3 and the letter "A" and you see this kind of fence, they took

22 people to the previous room where there was 700-odd of us, and then from

23 there they called people out and took off the wealthier ones, people who

24 had the coffee bars, shops, businessmen, they took them out first killing

25 them and demanding money and jewellery from them. Every day this happened

Page 21536

1 several times a day. So it wasn't hard to count if you want to know. It

2 wasn't hard too count.

3 Q. So how did you count them?

4 A. I didn't count them all. I didn't even know that I would survive.

5 It didn't interest me that much. All I know is that when we got to Pilica

6 so many were missing.

7 [redacted]

8 [redacted]

9 [redacted]

10 [redacted]

11 [redacted]

12 [redacted]

13 MR. NICE: Private session or redact.

14 JUDGE MAY: Redact. Yes. A few questions more and we're going to

15 adjourn, Mr. Milosevic.

16 THE REGISTRAR: We're still in open session.

17 MR. NICE: And Your Honour, before he resumes with these questions

18 may I make this observation. It's difficult to be quite sure in this

19 cross-examination whether the accused is advancing a positive case built

20 on material available to him or that he's really just testing the witness

21 with the allegation that the witness is simply making it all up. I don't

22 want to deprive myself of the forensic flourishes that come in

23 re-examination but the Chamber might want to know, may want to have the

24 advantage of considering over night that this witness made a statement

25 about these events five days after the incident he's telling about. I

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1 should be re-examining on that and there are of course international

2 documents or documents of international organisations that we will produce

3 dealing with the disappearance of these people.

4 JUDGE MAY: Yes. You've got about two minutes left and then we'll

5 adjourn, Mr. Milosevic.

6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well, Mr. May.

7 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

8 Q. So regarding those four days, you know five names of the people

9 killed, and on the other hand, among the 24 guards or soldiers who are

10 whatever you want to call them, Serbs, you knew as many as four, is that

11 right, by name?

12 A. I don't know where that is stated.

13 [redacted]

14 [redacted]

15 JUDGE MAY: We're going to adjourn now. It's past of the time.

16 The last question will be redacted.

17 You have 20 minutes left for cross-examination tomorrow morning.

18 Witness B-1098, could you be back, please, tomorrow morning at

19 9:00 to conclude your evidence.

20 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.45 p.m.,

21 to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 3rd day of June,

22 2003, at 9.00 a.m.

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