Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia>

Page 21648

1 Tuesday, 3 June 2003

2 [Motion Hearing]

3 [Open session]

4 --- Upon commencing at 3.03 p.m.

5 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Nice.

6 MR. NICE: Your Honour, we meet again in relation to the

7 application under 54 bis. Today I appear with Mr. Groome, Ms. Milenov,

8 and Mr. Vlasic assisting us.

9 Picking up where we left off on the 10th of March of this year.

10 Now, there is a great deal of material that has been provided to the

11 Chamber, and it may be the Chamber will have a preference for how we

12 should proceed because one thing that is quite clear is that we can't go

13 through all the matters dealt with in the filings in detail in the hearing

14 this afternoon. There's nothing like enough time for that. But it may

15 help if I just remind you a little of the scene that was set on the 10th

16 of March when the Chamber was dealing with a 54 bis application brought by

17 the Office of the Prosecutor in respect of a number of documents on an

18 occasion when it was argued as it is argued today that there had been a

19 pattern of non-cooperation and obstruction by the authorities in relation

20 to the documents that we need if we are to present this case against the

21 accused, Milosevic, properly and so as to produce or enable the Chamber to

22 produce the best and most satisfactory judgement.

23 Now, that hearing was brought on as a result of an application and

24 following extensive efforts by the Office of the Prosecutor to gather the

25 documents it needs by the usual technique of requests for assistance, and

Page 21649

1 the pattern of those requests were set out in charts, so the Chamber now

2 has helpfully a comprehensive chart in two colours which sets out in

3 respect of certain requests for assistance the initial summary basis for

4 the application in response of Serbia-Montenegro as it now is and in

5 summary the Office of the Prosecutor's comments in relation to each of the

6 replies of Serbia-Montenegro.

7 I'll say a word or so about that list in a minute.

8 But it was following a protracted period of time that the

9 application was brought on.

10 Now, in that hearing, and I don't know if the Chamber has had an

11 opportunity to refresh its memory as to what happened there, in that

12 hearing and built on the response of Serbia-Montenegro to the application

13 made, their written response, the following things emerged: First, for

14 the first time, the government was taking the position in any event

15 through its legal representatives that they there was an in-principle

16 objection to the Office of the Prosecutor having any access to what was

17 described as archives, and archives were discussed at some length,

18 possibly in a way that diverted attention from the real subject of the

19 application, and there was some expressions by the Chamber of difficulties

20 about possibly ordering access to archives and so on. The Office of the

21 Prosecutor through me saying that there's also a problem of this kind,

22 namely, what is an archive? Some things are very obviously archives.

23 Other things can be defined as archives by the authorities if they think

24 that they can in their own terminology win on a point and by having

25 something categorised as an archive block our access to it.

Page 21650

1 And so archives featured quite extensively on that earlier

2 occasion, it being acknowledged in the government's written materials that

3 there had been efforts made by the Office of the Prosecutor to achieve

4 consensual arrangements with the governments to inspect archives.

5 Well, that hearing ended, as the Court will recall and is set out

6 in our latest pleading, with an order from Your Honour for the Court that

7 pending final determination of this matter, the government should respond

8 to what was called a priority list of documents, and I said I'll come back

9 to that, within two months, to comply with the requests in it as far and

10 as soon as possible or to indicate the grounds of objection where it's

11 taking to any request. So nothing said there about archives, and we'll

12 come back to what was said there in a minute.

13 Our written suggestions or proposals for archives being with the

14 government, nothing was done in the two-month period of any kind, and when

15 the government's document was filed in this application, it repeated in a

16 rather technical way its root and branch objection to the Office of the

17 Prosecutor ever having access to archives. A little over a week after the

18 expiry of the two-month period, there was a meeting in Belgrade between

19 the Prosecutor and the high offices of Serbia-Montenegro, the President,

20 the Prime Minister, and the Foreign Minister, and it was then made quite

21 plain to the Prosecutor that there was no objection in principle to our

22 having access to archives and indeed that we should be granted access to

23 archives. That, if I might say so, accords with common sense and with the

24 needs of a case like this. It also reflected earlier practices before the

25 time when in these proceedings and for the first time this root and branch

Page 21651

1 objection was taken when there had been some of a limited and

2 unsatisfactory but nevertheless some access to archives. And that's

3 almost where we stand with archives.

4 I'm told by Mr. Djeric, who appears with others today,

5 Mr. Obradovic and our friend from the embassy. He, I think, tells me that

6 some steps are or have been taken to respond to our much earlier written

7 proposal, our non-paper as it's called. But the reality is that despite

8 an understanding now by the government that to course we have to be

9 granted access to archives, despite every effort we've made in the past

10 and materially for the last hearing to provide a scheme whereby this might

11 be achieved, we're still waiting for any written proposals. Two and a

12 half months or more have passed and we are coming close to the end of the

13 Prosecution's case.

14 As I say, archives may have been something of a diversion on the

15 last occasion, because actually, on the last occasion we came with very

16 specific requests for documents. We sought binding orders against the

17 government in respect of documents, and we argued that there was

18 absolutely no reason why these documents shouldn't have been provided.

19 And it was with that part of our application in mind that the Court made

20 the order it did, and I remind us all that the order was that the

21 government should comply with requests in and -- in -- that its requests

22 in the application and within the two-month period as far and as soon as

23 possible.

24 Before I come to the response of the government of

25 Serbia-Montenegro to that order, I'll deal as I said I would with the list

Page 21652

1 of 100.

2 JUDGE MAY: Could you just stop. There is one matter we need to

3 consider.

4 [Trial Chamber confers]

5 JUDGE MAY: Will the senior legal officer come forward, please.

6 [Trial Chamber and legal officer confer]

7 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Nice.

8 MR. NICE: The list of 100 priority documents was a list prepared,

9 served either just before and/or at the last hearing in order to reduce

10 the problem that was being addressed to the Chamber and to make sure that

11 everyone understood where our priorities lay, and so there was a priority

12 list of a hundred on which we focused attention. And the order of the

13 Chamber was in respect of, as I understand it, that 100 requests.

14 The response to that 100 requests within the two-month period has

15 been nil. Some documents have been provided in respect of requests

16 outside that priority list, but as to the list in respect of which we made

17 it clear we had a pressing interest, nothing provided.

18 Last Friday, I think, four documents arrived from requests for

19 assistance number 175 relating to MUP procedure, and some 11 documents

20 from requests for assistance number 309 relating to MUP staff. We haven't

21 yet been able to assess those documents which are only a small part of

22 what's required in any event, and that is effectively the limit of what

23 has been provided.

24 It has been abundantly clear to us at various times and for

25 various reasons that many of the documents we have sought have been not

Page 21653

1 only in the possession of the government for obviously they're in

2 possession of the government, but they've actually been in possession of

3 the lawyers representing the government. The only question being when

4 they're going to be in a position to hand them over.

5 Well, nothing has been handed over.

6 The only other development of which I must tell you, and it

7 relates, if you've had an opportunity to become familiar with the two

8 bundles of documents provided by the -- by the Office of the Prosecutor

9 and by the government, it relates to, I think, the second tab probably,

10 but it's at tab 9 in the Prosecutor's document at Registry page 21874 and

11 following, and it relates to or is referred to at page 3 of the -- no, beg

12 your pardon. It's not page 3. Page 19 of the document provided by the

13 government.

14 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Nice, to be fair to the government, in some

15 cases when they have not provided the document, they have given an

16 explanation.

17 MR. NICE: Certainly. And of course we'll come to some of the

18 explanations in the time available, but I wanted -- if I may at the

19 moment, I just wanted to deal with events of which you may not be aware

20 relating to particular categories of documents. And I've dealt with the

21 position about archival material, and it's now necessary, if I can, or

22 desirable, if I can, just to deal with these particular documents of which

23 the Chamber has heard a great deal, records of the Supreme Defence

24 Council. And it's convenient to deal with them because the Chamber having

25 heard the evidence thus far in the case can have absolutely no doubt about

Page 21654

1 the significance to this trial generally of that body, of the way it

2 operated, of the degree of the accused's authority and power over it, and

3 indeed it's been referred on several occasions, I think, to the records of

4 the Supreme Defence Council.

5 Well, nothing was provided in the two months allowed by the

6 Chamber, and it was only at the meeting with the Prosecutor or meetings

7 with the Prosecutor on the 19th of May that some developments occurred and

8 a new arrangement was made whereby it was thought the process could be

9 accelerated, although given that there was a hearing due today at which an

10 order could be made, they would have to be very swift action for there to

11 be any acceleration.

12 Nothing happened until last week when there were contacts between

13 the Prosecution and the representatives of the government where the point

14 was pressed that if there was to be any advantage in this new arrangement,

15 then the documents of the SDC, which are so critical for a witness coming

16 shortly, those documents should be made available immediately.

17 Interestingly, the initial reaction pressed by the government was

18 that there would be no access to these documents at all until after

19 today's hearing. But the point was not yielded, and eventually it was

20 conceded that part of those critical documents could be viewed last Friday

21 and Saturday, and so they were.

22 The Chamber will recall that the documents in which we have and

23 have for a long time expressed an interest are the records of the Supreme

24 Defence Council meetings which exist in two forms, one being a part of the

25 other. The two forms are stenographic notes which are backed by tape

Page 21655

1 recordings and, therefore, notes which it will always be finally and if

2 necessary to verify for their accuracy and which will provide the best

3 conceivable evidence of how the accused operated in that council, the

4 degree to which he had influence over others or the degree to which he was

5 overborne by others if that ever should be his case.

6 Those stenographic notes or records are part of meeting notes, and

7 I say that because that's what the meeting notes themselves say, meeting

8 notes being summaries of what happened in the meetings. It was only the

9 meeting notes that were provided to a member of the staff of the Office of

10 the Prosecutor last Friday and Saturday, about 300 pages, covering the

11 period for the Bosnian indictment, covering the period of the presidency

12 of Zoran Lilic. Documents that had previously been withheld from us,

13 although some records of the Supreme Defence Council have been provided

14 for another arguably far less significant period. And I note in

15 parenthesis that no records of the Supreme Defence Council have been

16 provided for us for the period following the 23rd of March of 1999 when

17 they will be of extreme relevance to the Kosovo period. But we must move

18 incrementally against the difficulties we encounter.

19 The records of these meetings provided, that is not the

20 stenographic notes, the short-form records, are indeed of interest and

21 they point up absolutely the need to have the stenographic records made

22 available to us. But despite it being absolutely obvious that these

23 documents were available for distribution to us for months or years,

24 despite it being the case, we've pressed for them not only in writing, in

25 applications under this particular request for assistance but also under

Page 21656

1 the request for assistance number 219, they have been withheld without any

2 explanation save one for why they were being withheld.

3 The only ground of objection in respect of those documents ever

4 voiced in meetings has been the question whether they might require some

5 measure of protection on production in court. That has been explained

6 repeatedly to the government is not a matter we can deal with, for

7 protection is entirely a matter for the Chamber. We can be sympathetic if

8 we know what a document says to the suggestion that it falls within a

9 category where protection may be appropriate. We can give general support

10 if we judge that a proper thing to do. But if there is a desire to

11 protect a document on grounds of national security, that's really

12 exclusively, ultimately a matter for the government concerned, and if that

13 was their concern, then it was a matter that they should have brought to

14 the Court. They didn't. They simply stopped our having the documents

15 until -- as a result of the arrangement to which I've described and the

16 pressing nature of the request made to them last week, they allowed to us

17 see part of the document.

18 Now, Your Honours, that's all I --

19 JUDGE MAY: Where will we find that in the priority list?

20 MR. NICE: It features at -- furniture has the two-coloured

21 list --

22 JUDGE MAY: Yes.

23 MR. NICE: -- then -- yes, line 8. I'm grateful to Ms. Milenov.

24 On page 3 in the way I have.

25 JUDGE MAY: Yes, 8 and 9.

Page 21657

1 MR. NICE: 8 and 9, absolutely correct, yes.

2 Those are the only two particular events that I need draw to your

3 attention or non-events in the case of the archives that fill in the

4 procedural history since the last occasion. And can I say just a couple

5 of things in general before inviting consideration as to how we should

6 proceed as to the balance of requests?

7 First, and I think this features in both of our written filings

8 and in a sense recognising that these procedural applications are

9 burdensome on all of us, the fact remains that documents are the key to

10 cases of this kind without any doubt, and one has only to consider, as we

11 say in both pleadings, the difference between the documentary material

12 available at the famous Nuremberg trial where 21 accused had their fully

13 contested cases disposed of in about nine months, where documents were

14 fully available and a position in which we find ourselves in this court.

15 The second general matter that I must refer Your Honours to is

16 really a question of timing. I've dealt with, as it were, the timing of

17 the order of the Court, a two-month period given, nothing produced beyond

18 what I've spoken of. The Chamber should know that there are, of course,

19 as at the meeting with the Prosecutor, protestations of change and

20 protestations of an intent to cooperate. But the Chamber must also know

21 that there is a deadline approaching, the 16th of June, where United

22 States certification of cooperation is essential if certain aid is to be

23 available to the states concerned. And it is one thing for proceedings to

24 be extended beyond a deadline by protestations, and it is another thing

25 for those protestations always or necessarily to be made good.

Page 21658

1 JUDGE MAY: I don't think this Trial Chamber can concern itself

2 with deadlines of those sort or political matters. We have to look at the

3 facts here and the basis of this application and decide it as a legal

4 matter.

5 JUDGE ROBINSON: I have to say, Mr. Nice, I have to consider that

6 reference regrettable.

7 MR. NICE: Well, I'm sorry that Your Honour takes that view, but

8 it's a reality with which we have to contend. I have in mind of course

9 the care in which one has to approach these matters, and I remember Your

10 Honour's concern on the last occasion where I ventured to be critical of

11 the response of the government, and of course we're always very cautious

12 about that, but the Court will probably want to have in mind that in some

13 degree, it may be my caution or our caution in accepting what is or has

14 been urged to us was and always has been backed by reality, for as you'll

15 perhaps have in mind, drawn from paragraph 15 of our latest filing, since

16 the last hearing, a particular element in the chain of cooperation, the

17 former army Commission for Cooperation with the ICTY has been abolished,

18 and you'll find at paragraph 15 of our filing material from elsewhere

19 going to show why there was concern and why there always has been concern

20 about the nature of the response we get to our applications. But His

21 Honour Judge May is of course right saying that this application has to be

22 determined as a matter of law. And what we would say is this:

23 Determination has essentially to be on the basis of performance thus far

24 without prejudice to whether present protestations may be shown in due

25 course to be absolutely determined or capable of slippage, because it's

Page 21659

1 the past performance, given the timing of the trial, that justifies the

2 making of orders. And this point, in our respectful submission, is

3 entirely valid.

4 We seek orders today for the production of documents that have

5 been outstanding to us for months and years. If present protestations are

6 absolutely sincere, as one hopes they are, there is nothing at all wrong

7 with there being orders that will work in parallel with the intentions

8 behind those protestations and ensure that the documents are produced. If

9 for any reason the protestations of intention could be subject to slippage

10 for whatever reason, then the orders will ensure that the material that is

11 necessarily before the Chamber is before it.

12 And so accepting entirely that the decision has to be made in

13 light of -- as a matter of law and in light of all the material before the

14 Chamber, we would invite you to say that it is appropriate to look at past

15 performance and on the basis of that to make orders which will be of no

16 adverse prejudice to the authorities given their protestations recently

17 expressed.

18 Those are the general points I'd make, and I've taken half an

19 hour. The structure of the materials before you is as follows, and I

20 don't know how long we're going to be able to sit this afternoon and

21 therefore I --

22 JUDGE MAY: Not beyond half past four, so if you would be fairly

23 quick.

24 MR. NICE: In which case, Your Honour, I must indeed be fairly

25 brief if I, for example, have a few minutes to reply.

Page 21660

1 There are a's the summary in the two-tone or two-coloured

2 document. There is then our pleading with accompanying documents, and

3 some of them have now been closed because there has been compliance

4 however recent and late with the request for assistance, but the Chamber

5 may think, having looked already at the issue of archives which we covered

6 in tab 1, at the issue of Supreme Defence Council documentation which we

7 covered at tab 9, and there's full argument on all of them, that the other

8 documentation, the other requests in which you may want to -- or what you

9 may wish to focus attention include tab -- yes. There's tab 10, which

10 also deals with Supreme Command documentation, and I have said as much as

11 I need to add to that.

12 There is then tab 11, which deals with some Kosovo documentation.

13 Can I just draw to your attention, and it's necessary to do so on

14 what is Registry page 21859 under paragraph 3, a point that is set out and

15 that requires some general consideration.

16 Sixty-seven documents have been provided under these relevant

17 requests, 119 broken down into A, B, C, as well. They've been provided

18 despite the government's assertion that this request is over-broad.

19 What we find concerning about these documents provided is, first,

20 that they are by no means sequential documents. There has been selection

21 of them. But that they are not responsive to the request. They would

22 appear to be exculpatory and selectively so and that they are even outside

23 the period we've asked for.

24 Now, I made the point on the last occasion none of us wants to be

25 spending our time doing this unless it's necessary. We don't make

Page 21661

1 requests other than those we believe to be justified, and we have no

2 desire to burden ourselves with paper beyond that which we already have,

3 but our duty is to get the documentation.

4 We form a view and I'm not going to pretend we don't form a view

5 about the response we meet, and when we see our requests for relevant

6 documentation responded to in a selective way as described there, we

7 express concern and invite the Chamber to have it in mind.

8 The next request for assistance, tab 14, of particular

9 significance is the Joint Command to which in summary the government

10 responds by saying, "Well, the Joint Command doesn't exist in law as a

11 body."

12 The Chamber will already be aware of the use of the term of

13 documents that have referred to the term of witnesses who have referred to

14 it and the attempt to avoid production of Joint Command materials on this

15 ground is, we say, unhelpful. Sorry, Supreme Command. I was reading

16 joint command and saying supreme command. I'm grateful to Ms. Milenov. We

17 come to Joint Command later.

18 And as to the suggestion that -- yes. And, Your Honours, if you

19 want to see the document that seeks, as it were, to hide or lose the

20 presence of the joint command, it's Registry page 21862, which is the

21 response of the relevant ministry of the 23rd of December of 2002, where

22 despite all the evidence that you have of the existence of a Supreme

23 Command, and I'm sorry for having muddled you, you will see what the

24 ministry replied. It said this: "In order to acquire the requested

25 information, this ministry addressed the Yugoslav army General Staff for

Page 21662

1 cooperation with The Hague Tribunal," I think the body that's now gone,

2 "Which notified us by a note number so-and-so that the requested

3 documentation was not under the jurisdiction of the Federal Ministry of

4 the Defence and the Yugoslav army. This ministry then turned to the

5 military cabinet of the FRY president, which by note informed us that the

6 military cabinet and other offices didn't process documents related to the

7 Supreme Command nor are provisions of the Supreme Command to be found in

8 the constitution law on defence and so on.

9 So they asked some questions of ministries and on the basis of

10 that provide nothing despite it may be thought by the Chamber the clearest

11 evidence that of course it existed and its documentation must exist.

12 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Djeric, I'm told you'd like to address us. You

13 can address us when the Prosecutor is finished. We try and do it in an

14 order early way.

15 Mr. Nice if you would have regard to the time, please.

16 MR. NICE: Your Honour, I will. If we could -- perhaps I could

17 actually now point you because I see the time and I don't want Mr. Djeric

18 to be denied an equal time to address you. Tab 14 on the Joint Command is

19 material, because of course despite everything that is said, as you can

20 see from the papers we provide, documentation by the Joint Command has

21 actually been published in books since. For tab 16 material on the

22 council for harmonisation of positions on state policy, this is an

23 extremely important area of a body whose sole purpose was to coordinate

24 policy towards Republika Srpska and Republika Srpska Krajina and its

25 series of documentation of the most obvious relevance.

Page 21663

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Page 21664

1 Tab 18 is document 219. We've considered this at great length in

2 the past. It's far too detailed for consideration today. It incorporates

3 the SDC minutes and a large number of other detailed documents required

4 for a witness to be with us in just a week or so.

5 And I think there was an expectation of expedition of this

6 document on the last occasion. There has been no such expedition.

7 I would have spent a little time on RFA 229, financial

8 documentation, but I'll move on I think to tab 27 -- no, I needn't worry

9 with that over time. I needn't worry about that in light of time.

10 Tab 30 is the request in respect of which we received 11 documents

11 on Friday, and tab 34 is just a slight odd one. It's to do with Vukovar

12 Hospital records and whatever the position of the government the accused

13 already produced one or some of those documents himself.

14 Your Honour, we would invite you to say, looking at the overall

15 history, that the orders sought by the Prosecution item by item on the

16 list, and we deleted wherever it's been possible to delete on the grounds

17 the requests have finally been honoured, we would ask you it say that

18 these orders should now be made, that you can be quite sure that wherever

19 necessary and as forecast in our application, representatives of the

20 Office of the Prosecutor will do what is necessary to make the task of

21 dealing with this documentation feasible and economic in use of

22 everybody's time, but the time simply has come for these orders to be made

23 lest the Chamber should be asked to reach a decision at the end of the

24 exercise on material other than the best and indeed material that simply

25 may not be sufficient.

Page 21665

1 In light of the time I've taken unless I can help further at this

2 stage, I'll stop.

3 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Djeric.

4 MR. DJERIC: Your Honours, I'm glad to be once move before this

5 Chamber. With me today is Mr. Obradovic, who is the deputy head of the

6 international legal department in the Ministry of Foreign Affairs of

7 Serbia-Montenegro, and Mr. Panceski who is first secretary of our embassy

8 in The Hague.

9 I would like to make a few general remarks on the last

10 Prosecution's submission, and then I will summarise very shortly our

11 argument in respect to archives and will then respond to the new

12 contentions of the Prosecution and then will perhaps such on certain new

13 issues raised in the Prosecution's response. I will certainly not be 40

14 minutes long. At the end, perhaps I would ask for a closed session to

15 discuss certain issues.

16 I would like to make a few first few general remarks on the latest

17 submission of the Prosecution, which begins by describing our 6 May

18 submission as, and I quote, "Totally unacceptable." It accuses Serbia and

19 Montenegro as merely providing new excuses, adding that such excuses are

20 either misplaced, insincere, or both. And this is the tone that the

21 Prosecution has set for today's oral hearing. We find such a tone

22 unacceptable, although we understand that the Prosecution needs to resort

23 to such inflammatory rhetoric in the absence of legal arguments for its

24 claims.

25 Needless to say, the Prosecution's assertions are groundless.

Page 21666

1 First, since the last hearing, Serbia and Montenegro has supplied the

2 Prosecution with documentation pursuant to seven requests for assistance

3 mentioned in the application under Rule 54 bis. That is 114, 175 which is

4 point 45 of the priority list as set by Mr. Nice, 211, 207 C, 336 which is

5 point 151 of the priority list, 253, and the request of some documentation

6 in relation to request 309. These are points 137 to 139 of the priority

7 list.

8 This clearly demonstrates that there is -- that cooperation is in

9 process and we find it progressing well. However, here in this procedure

10 we a dispute with the Prosecution over certain legal issues, and we have a

11 dispute over interpretation of certain facts, and for that we need the

12 determination of this Trial Chamber.

13 Second, I wish to emphasise that we have not provided new excuses

14 but instead we have raised perfectly legitimate objections under Rule 54

15 bis (A). Of course Serbia and Montenegro has the right to do so under the

16 Statute and Rules, and in this the government is indeed an adverse party

17 to a litigation as any other government would be and has been in a similar

18 procedure. Of course this does not mean that the government is not

19 assisting the International Tribunal as the Prosecution contends. The

20 Prosecution may or may not agree with our objections, but it has no right

21 to accuse of bad faith and non-cooperation a state that is fulfilling its

22 obligations under the Statute, and it's exercise its rights under Rule 54

23 bis.

24 This is even more so when the state Serbia-Montenegro was actually

25 following what was ordered by this Chamber and I'm quoting in part, "To

Page 21667

1 indicate the grounds of objections where it's taken to any request."

2 It is completely unacceptable, therefore, to say that Serbia and

3 Montenegro failed to respond meaningfully to the Chamber order.

4 Furthermore, we wish strongly to reject the following Prosecution's

5 assertion, and I'm quoting: "The impeding conclusion of this trial, of

6 Milosevic trial, may well encourage Serbia and Montenegro to delay its

7 response until the end --" I'm sorry, "to delay its response until the

8 need for documents is overcome by events."

9 The implication of this statement is that the government is hiding

10 or withholding evidence for this trial, and this must be firmly rejected.

11 It should be remembered that it is this government that arrested and

12 surrendered Mr. Milosevic in the first place. It should also be

13 remembered that Mr. Djindjic, who was prime minister, took responsibility

14 for this act, was assassinated in March, and at the same time from the

15 investigation into his murder, it has transpired that there has been a

16 further list of targeted officials, prominently including certain

17 ministers responsible for cooperation with the International Tribunal.

18 To suggest in these circumstances that the government is actually

19 withholding evidence is quite cynical, especially if one compares the

20 armchair perspective of the Prosecution with the tangible challenges faced

21 by the government.

22 Your Honours, I would like now to say something about the specific

23 requests for assistance. Let me first note that the Prosecution has

24 withdrawn its request for a binding order on 15 requests for assistance.

25 That's at paragraph 9 of their last submission. In relation to additional

Page 21668

1 seven requests, the Prosecution has not been asking at a moment any

2 further action by the Trial Chamber. This means that there is no request

3 for an order with regard to 22 out of 36 requests for assistance that the

4 Prosecution brought before the Chamber in this proceeding. The number of

5 36 requests for assistance is a total of the original 32 contained in the

6 original application and four that were added in the priority list.

7 The Chamber will recall that in the original application, the

8 Prosecution dramatically accused the government of non-cooperation as it

9 did today and stated, and I'm quoting: "The government has succeeded in

10 stalling, avoiding or ignoring a substantial number of RFAs." This was

11 widely reported in the media and used by the Prosecution in its contacts

12 throughout the international community. Now what transpires is that the

13 Prosecution, in fact, does not request any action from the Chamber with

14 respect to the majority of requests. And this is a strong confirmation of

15 what we already said before, that this proceeding is actually completely

16 unnecessary and in reality aimed to exert political pressure on the

17 government to provide general access to archives.

18 Now, in accordance with Rule 54 bis and considering the damage

19 that the Prosecution's dramatic assertions have made to Serbia and

20 Montenegro, both domestically and internationally, we find it appropriate

21 and submit to the Chamber to formally dismiss the application with regard

22 to the requests that the Prosecution has chosen not to pursue. Therefore,

23 we respectfully submit that the application should be dismissed in

24 relation to the following requests for assistance: Number 81, 92, number

25 103, 110, 114, 171, 172, 207, 221, 226, 249, 250, 252, 253, 304, 310, 311,

Page 21669

1 314, 325, 336, 338, and 349.

2 Your Honours, the above clearly demonstrates that today only a

3 minority of requests have not been completely responded to, and with

4 respect to these, our comments and objections have been outlined in our

5 last submission to the Chamber, especially in our comments in the priority

6 list, the comments which are in red letters.

7 In any case, we submit that these requests, these minority of

8 requests for assistance is resolved in the ongoing process of cooperation.

9 As an example, I wish to draw the attention of the Chamber to request 229,

10 which was also mentioned by Mr. Nice. That is a request for financial

11 documentation. And it is at tab 21 of the annex to the Prosecution's

12 response. It is also at points 108 to 120 of the priority list.

13 In February this year, I have informed the Prosecution's

14 representative in Belgrade that we have not been able to find these

15 documents, that the government of Serbia, the general secretariat has

16 informed us that there are no such documents in their archives.

17 It took two and a half months for the Prosecution to say in its

18 latest response of 20th of May that the requested documentation may be

19 located in the Ministry of Finance. What we did is to immediately contact

20 this ministry and are now waiting for the response.

21 I'm giving you this example, because it demonstrates how

22 cooperation proceeds and how it can be resolved in everyday contacts and

23 how only now we have received specific information in relation to a number

24 of requests submitted by the Prosecution.

25 Your Honours, I'm not going to dispute that there are certain

Page 21670

1 contentious issues left that need to be resolved by this Trial Chamber,

2 and the most important one, of course, is the issue of whether the

3 Prosecution has the right to access and survey archives of a state.

4 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Djeric, prior to the Prosecution informing

5 you that the documentation could be found in the Ministry of Finance, I

6 take it that the government had not searched that ministry for the

7 documentation.

8 MR. DJERIC: I believe you are right. We have -- what we do is

9 usually contact the relevant part of the government. We never had any

10 indication that these documents were the documents of the Ministry of

11 Finance. They were either looked as either documents of the Serbian

12 government of which obviously Ministry of Finance is a part, but we

13 submitted the request to the government. The government searched its

14 archives which are located as an archive in the -- as a Central Archive in

15 the general secretariat of a government, and we got the response that they

16 cannot find it neither by date, neither by reference. Now --

17 JUDGE ROBINSON: But would that have been a place to look for the

18 documents since the documents -- since the documentation sought, as I

19 understand it, was of a financial nature.

20 MR. DJERIC: The documentation sought was not exclusively of a

21 financial nature. However, we've been able to -- we have the information

22 that it is related to government of Serbia, so that's where we looked.

23 JUDGE ROBINSON: I see.

24 MR. DJERIC: And we didn't have specific information that it may

25 be located in the Ministry of Finance.

Page 21671

1 JUDGE ROBINSON: Okay. Thank you.

2 MR. DJERIC: Going back to the issue of archives. We have I think

3 repeatedly demonstrated to the Chamber that the Prosecution does not have

4 such a right, a right to have access and survey archives under the Statute

5 and Rules. However, the Prosecution keeps pressing this issue, both

6 before the Chamber and for us, which is quite important for us, in its

7 contacts with the international community.

8 We submit that it will be necessary thus that the Chamber resolves

9 this issue, because indeed the Court that gives the authoritative

10 interpretation of the Statute and not the Prosecution.

11 At the same time, and part of it was mentioned by Mr. Nice, we are

12 ready to work with the Prosecution on certain modalities of limited access

13 to archives, but it should be understood that this government holds that

14 this is done as a courtesy of a state willing to assist the Prosecution

15 and not as a matter of legal obligation under the Statute. So we are

16 ready to move forward with these practical arrangements, but at the same

17 time for the sake of legal certainty and the rule of law we need your

18 determination on the issue of archives.

19 The Prosecution's requests to access and survey state archives is

20 nothing else but a request for a grand fishing expedition. The

21 Prosecution has not only been fishing for documents, it is also fishing

22 for a legal basis for its requests. I should remind the Chamber that in

23 the original application the Prosecution based its request for archives

24 under Rule 54 bis. We have demonstrated that such a request manifestly

25 failed to meet the requires of Rule 54 bis.

Page 21672

1 Now, in its reply, in its further submission of 27 February, the

2 Prosecution retained Rule 54 bis justification but also claim -- claimed

3 that Rule 39(ii) and Rule 54 in concert provide the legal basis for its

4 request for archives. And we have demonstrated at the oral hearing, I

5 believe, that Rule 54 bis was lex specialis and that Rules 39 and 54 did

6 not apply.

7 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Djeric, I'm interested in the modalities that

8 you're working out with the Prosecution for limited access. I mean, how

9 far has that exercise reached?

10 MR. DJERIC: Can we go into closed session, please?

11 JUDGE MAY: Yes.

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Page 21674

1 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session.

2 MR. DJERIC: Yes. Okay. So as I said to the Chamber, the

3 Prosecution was changing its purported legal basis for access to archives.

4 The final -- the final argument made in the response of 20th of

5 May is that a legal basis for such an exercise can be found in Article 18,

6 paragraph 2 of the Statute and that access to archives is actually an

7 on-site investigation, as the Prosecution claims.

8 Now, in contrast to these changes, to these wavering legal bases

9 proposed by the Prosecution, we have remained constant with our argument

10 with respect to archives. But instead of responding to our argument the

11 Prosecution seems to be inventing new -- new justifications for its

12 requests for state archives. And I will briefly summarise, really

13 briefly, our argument.

14 The first point is that cooperation of states is mandated by

15 Article 29 and then further regulated by the Rules. In the Rules, certain

16 areas of cooperation are regulated by detail and exhaustively. For

17 example, transfer of detained witness. For example, execution of arrest

18 warrants and also orders of states -- orders to states to produce

19 documents.

20 With respect to documents, obviously the cooperation is governed

21 by Rule 54 bis, which exhaustively regulates this aspect of cooperation.

22 As requests made by the Prosecution to access survey state

23 archives manifestly fails to meet the requirements of Rule 54 bis, thus it

24 should be rejected, and in particular, the Prosecution's request fails to

25 meet the requirements that documents must be specified.

Page 21675

1 Now, second point is that Rule 54 bis clearly excludes a right of

2 a party to physically access and operate in state archives which the

3 Prosecution actually wants. Instead, Rule 54 bis mandates that

4 identifiable documents should be provided by the state concerned to the

5 parties and is -- this also falls from what the Appeals Chamber said in

6 the Blaskic case, that production of documents is an action that may be

7 taken only and exclusively through organs of states. That is at paragraph

8 27 of the Blaskic judgement.

9 Again, the Prosecution manifestly fails to meet these

10 requirements.

11 Now, we hold that Rule 54 bis is lex specialis, that is

12 exhaustively regulates production of documents and thus clearly excludes

13 application of Rule 39. Also, a general power of the Judge under Rule 54

14 of the Rules is qualified in respect to the production of documents. In a

15 sense, that is regulated by Rule 54 bis. That is what we submit.

16 Now, even if Rule 54 together with Rule 39 would be applicable to

17 the production of documents as it is not, any order by the Chamber would

18 have to follow the requirement set in the Blaskic judgement and then again

19 the Prosecution's request for access to archives would not meet these

20 requirements.

21 Now, the latest submission of the Prosecution, that is tab 1 of

22 the annex, it invokes Article 18, paragraph 2 of the Statute and claims

23 that the Prosecution's power to conduct on-site investigations extend to

24 access and survey of state archives and we submit this is an error for two

25 reasons. First, it is clear that the term on-site investigations means

Page 21676

1 investigations on the site, on the scene of the crime. It is obvious that

2 the alleged crimes in the case against Mr. Milosevic were not committed in

3 archives.

4 Second, according to Rule 37, and I quote now: "The Prosecutor

5 shall perform all the functions provided by the Statute in accordance with

6 the Rules." Therefore, the function of the Prosecutor provided by

7 Article 18, paragraph 2 of the Statute must be performed in accordance

8 with the Rules and has already demonstrated, the Rules mandate that all

9 cooperation with respect to documents is governed by Rule 54 bis

10 requirements.

11 Therefore, even if the term "on site investigations" could be

12 extended to archives, according to Rule 37, the power of the Prosecution

13 in this case could be exercised only in accordance with Rule 54 bis, and

14 the Prosecution will not meet the requirements.

15 An implied power of archival investigation submitted by the

16 Prosecution surely cannot override express provisions of Rule 54 bis, and

17 the Prosecution says at tab 1, and I quote, "Were archival investigation

18 not envisaged by the Statute and Rules, the Tribunal would be unable to

19 fulfil its mandate to prosecute."

20 Now, we submit that not only this contention is contrary to the

21 Statute and Rules, but it also fails to explain the fact that the Tribunal

22 has indeed been able to prosecute for the last ten years and to fulfil its

23 mandate without resorting to the so-called archival investigation.

24 Now, the Prosecution contends that documents in the archives of

25 Serbia and Montenegro were actually - this is a quote again - "The very

Page 21677

1 instrument through which the accused committed the crimes that are

2 alleged." Therefore, there should be, according to the Prosecution, a

3 difference between Serbia and Montenegro, perhaps other states on the

4 territory of former Yugoslavia, and other states elsewhere with respect

5 obviously to requests for archives.

6 Now, this is an old argument which was raised in the Blaskic

7 proceeding, and the Chamber -- actually, it was the Appeals Chamber said

8 that there was no legal difference between states on the territory of

9 former Yugoslavia and other states. There is only a practical difference

10 and this difference is in the fact that states in the territory of former

11 Yugoslavia will be more often addressees of requests for cooperation under

12 Rule -- under Article 29 of the Statute. So legal difference does not

13 exist.

14 Now, just a couple of more points on the archives. The

15 Prosecution claims again at tab 1 that it merely sought meetings with

16 archivists and a tour of the premises of the archives, and it claims that

17 there was no response to this until February this year. Now, this is not

18 true, because the meetings were held in November and December 2000, but in

19 fact, the Prosecution sought much more, and that was to assess archival

20 materials.

21 Now, Mr. Nice is saying that we never raised our objections with

22 respect to archives until the application under 54 bis was submitted, and

23 I can say that this is not correct because we did so already, I believe,

24 last -- sometime last year. We did it directly in contacts with the

25 Prosecutor's office in Belgrade, and it was an ongoing theme in various

Page 21678

1 contacts, and there are records of these meetings including with the Chief

2 Prosecutor and our Ministers.

3 So what the -- actually the Prosecution wants with this request to

4 survey and access archives, I will just quote once more shortly one of the

5 requests that is 327, request number 327. The Prosecution asked, and I

6 quote: "To survey and assess the records of the government for the period

7 of 1991 to 2000," ten years. Then it follows: "Of particular interest

8 are the stenographic minutes or other records of individual sessions of

9 the government and its working bodies." So this was obviously not a

10 request for a tour of premises. This was a request to expect the complete

11 documentation of the government for the last ten years and to fish in that

12 ocean of documentation.

13 Now, as I said with its last request to the Chamber, the

14 Prosecution has taken even one step further. So access and survey is not

15 sufficient. They are asking now to get the permission from the Trial

16 Chamber to review, select, and reproduce relevant documents at the same

17 time when they are in archives.

18 So what is this? I will be free to quote the words of Judge May

19 uttered in the Kordic and Cerkez case in a similar proceedings to this,

20 this is and I quote: "A glorified fishing expedition in which the

21 Prosecution wants," and I quote again "To trawl through the documents in

22 the hope that something will turn up." Trawl

23 Your Honours, Serbia and Montenegro respectfully requests a legal

24 determination on the issue of archives because it has been exposed to

25 continuous pressure by the Prosecution because this pressure affects the

Page 21679

1 international position of Serbia and Montenegro, and because this is the

2 most important reason, it is for the Court and not for the Prosecution to

3 give authoritative interpretation of the Statute and Rules, and such a

4 determination by the Chamber would contribute to the international rule of

5 law and legal certainty.

6 Therefore, we submit, we respectfully submit that the Chamber

7 reject the Prosecution's request to access and survey state archives, and

8 specifically is to reject requests for assistance numbers 76, 95, 106,

9 326, and 327.

10 Your Honours -- Your Honours, I would respectfully ask now if we

11 could go for a minute into closed session again.

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20 THE REGISTRAR: We're now in open session.

21 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Djeric, I wanted to take you back to the

22 construction that you placed on the term "on-site." In your submission,

23 on-site referred to the place of commission of the crimes, and since the

24 crimes were not committed in the archives, the term would have no

25 application there. But I wanted to ask you whether that might not be too

Page 21685

1 narrow an interpretation in the context of a Tribunal such as ours, which

2 is an International Tribunal with specific jurisdiction over a territory,

3 the territory of the former SFRY and whether the term "on-site" could not

4 be properly applied to the territory of the former SFRY.

5 MR. DJERIC: Your Honour, of course the comparison with -- I mean,

6 the thing that I said about whether crimes were committed in the archives

7 was an example. I have to say that I don't believe that on-site means on

8 the territory of the former Yugoslavia. I believe it relates to the site

9 of the crime. It relates also to other places where -- where certain

10 evidence can be found in a sense of guns, in a sense of bodies, et cetera,

11 et cetera. So I don't believe that it relates to archives. That's one

12 point.

13 The second point is that had the framers of the Statute and the

14 Rules wanted to give such a wide interpretation and wide meaning to

15 Article 18, paragraph 2, they would have said so. The usual meaning of

16 on-site investigation is really the investigation on the site of the

17 crime.

18 And then another point, you can compare -- there is Article 18,

19 paragraph 2 which regulates the powers of the Prosecution. There is also

20 Article 29 of the Statute. And if you compare these two, you will see

21 that everything done in the cooperation or most of things done in the

22 cooperation by states are done by them on the request of the Tribunal.

23 And of course, if we take these two provisions, they should be interpreted

24 in accordance with the Statute or with the view what was said in the

25 Rules, I'm sorry, in the Statute. And the Rules are clearly -- the Rules,

Page 21686

1 which are much more specific, never are using on-site investigation in any

2 other meaning than the investigation on the site of the crime. But

3 however, at the same time the Rules are having a specific provision on the

4 production of documents.

5 So we have two general provisions of the Statute, but I think

6 that -- that the clear picture, that the picture is much clearer with the

7 Rules read together with the Statute where 54 bis is giving clear

8 procedure how this is --

9 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you very much. I just wanted to get your

10 view on that.

11 [Trial Chamber confers]

12 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Thank you, Mr. Djeric.

13 Mr. Nice, if you could be quick, within at least ten minutes.

14 MR. NICE: I'll deal with points by headlines. The concluding

15 passage that was not read from Blaskic goes on to explain that as a matter

16 of policy -- well, is it goes on to explain and you can find the passage

17 that once you work cooperatively as long as that is bearing fruit, but

18 once it doesn't bear fruit then you're entitled to and should go to the

19 Chamber, which is what we've done.

20 The points in rapid fire, the word "fire" being appropriate

21 perhaps for the last point. Though we don't necessarily say on-site

22 investigations is the way to approach it, Rule 54 as originally relied on

23 in our first application gives a broad jurisdiction to the Chamber, but

24 this is worth having in mind when we look at on-site investigations. The

25 gun you find at an on-site investigations is no different in species from

Page 21687

1 the order to commit the crime that you find in the archive. It's the

2 order to commit the crime that brings about the crime. It's as much a gun

3 as anything else. And it is, if we may respectfully say so, absurd to

4 think that in the case of head of state and president of a federation, as

5 this accused was, that it is not relevant to know what is in the archives

6 that reveal how he managed the SDC, how the Supreme Command was organised,

7 how, for example, one or other of those bodies decided to deal with the

8 disposal of bodies which we know about going back to Serbia, matters of

9 that sort. It is not remotely a fishing exercise. It is a proper

10 investigation. And without those documents, it will be all too possible

11 for whatever decision is made here to be later unpicked when it suits

12 people's interests to reveal them.

13 And I come back to the point about stenographic notes. Mr. Djeric

14 says ten years and over-broad. There are only about 60 or 70 meetings.

15 It was possible for a member of the office to review in a day and a half

16 some 60 of those meetings as summarised in the short form because the

17 short form notes are indeed short and to see how valuable the meetings

18 themselves will inevitably be. But one of the problems about minutes kept

19 of meetings is that they may either A, be inaccurate or B, be

20 intentionally selective. And we already forecast being able to bring you

21 material from a witness which will go to how the issue of how the accused

22 may have on occasions sought to have meeting notes in some way rendered

23 favourable. So although the meetings notes are extremely valuable in what

24 they point us to, they are simply not the best evidence.

25 What this Chamber is concerned with is what this accused thought,

Page 21688

1 what he did, and how he controlled others, and 70 records is by no means a

2 large mass of material, and that's all that we would be obtaining in the

3 stenographic notes of the SDC.

4 As to -- yes. And I'm grateful. From the records we do have

5 already for other parts of SDC meetings, the minutes end in this way:

6 "Stenographic notes make a constituent part of these minutes."

7 The documentation is single. It happens that in point 8 and 9 of

8 our request for a hundred we separated them out, but the Prosecutor didn't

9 in the way that Mr. Djeric suggests she did rely on only the minutes. She

10 wanted the documentation which is the term that was used by her, as I

11 understand it, in the meeting and certainly in the letter that was sent.

12 And documentation, when the documentation is a single record incorporating

13 the stenographic notes reflects what we have always argued from the

14 beginning in every conversation with Mr. Djeric and in every application

15 is what's absolutely essential. And it will quite simply be the best

16 evidence that you can have of these particular matters.

17 I'm afraid I can't accept that there have been any root and branch

18 objection to archives. I repeat that archives have become something of a

19 diversion in these proceedings. Archives were mentioned in our original

20 application. There was no archive referred to in the list of 100 priority

21 documents for which we sought 54 bis rulings, and all that's happened

22 since is that nothing's happened apart from under pressure there has been

23 some acceptance that modalities must be introduced. But we still seek

24 orders in respect of those documents originally in the list of 100 that

25 are outstanding so that archives to this extent remains a diversion to the

Page 21689

1 central part of this application.

2 As to whether there is any right to us to have access to archives,

3 the answer is of course there is, for the reasons that I've already given

4 as common sense under our powers of investigation given the analogy that

5 Mr. Groome drew to my attention that a gun being the same as an order

6 something in any event we've reflected in the arguments of I think it's

7 Ms. Milenov in the documentation. It's also available to us at the order

8 of the Trial Chamber under Rule 54 in the same way as I think search

9 warrants not fully articulated in the rules but became available under

10 Rule 54 which is a very broad power, and our original application was not

11 under 54 bis. It has under 54 and 54 bis, and the discussion that was

12 expected to generate was on that basis.

13 So if the Chamber is minded to give a ruling given the narrow

14 focus of the hundred, then we would invite the Chamber to say yes, it can

15 indeed order that they be given access to archives for this Chamber of all

16 Chambers must be as interested as can conceivably be in records of the

17 army and of the MUP as well as records where they constitute archives as

18 opposed to just generalised records of the particular bodies presided over

19 or attended by the accused. And I repeat that it is in a sense convenient

20 to the government to describe as archives things that aren't. There are

21 documents -- there are bodies of documentation that are clearly archives

22 when they're swept up after the event and put into a big building and

23 marked archives, they are archives, I suppose. But whether it's a

24 distinction with a difference is another matter.

25 We would invite the Chamber to say it certainly has power if it

Page 21690

1 chooses to decide to deal with it in this hearing at the invitation of

2 Mr. Djeric to say, "We must have access to archives." That's not in fact

3 the subject matter of the application in principle, but it certainly is in

4 a position to say we have that -- that it has that power to order that we

5 should have that access. We would then of course have to deal with access

6 in detail and the modalities are something that are in fact, so we are

7 told, under review by both sides at the moment or by the other side but

8 we're still waiting to see some development.

9 We would ask the Chamber to deal with this difficult problem

10 serving as a diversion as it does in a way that will ensure that we do

11 have access to the archives because in that way, we will be able to

12 identify and bring to you the documents you will most need to have.

13 I notice Mr. Djeric says that we've been able to perform our

14 mandate or that the Tribunal has been able to perform its mandate without

15 access to the archives. Yes, but with enormous complaint about the times

16 our trials take.

17 Of particular concern to us and raised in the very last paragraph

18 of our most recent filing is this: Despite all the things that have been

19 said by Mr. Djeric, he has formulated no application for protective

20 measures for any particular document. Now, the consequence of that is

21 this: Applications for protection will be coming. They will be coming

22 later, and they will add to the time before documents can be produced.

23 You will recall from our latest filing that I pressed the government to

24 say whether they were going to bring applications for protective measures

25 and to make sure they were properly constituted and before you today. We

Page 21691

1 have said insofar as we can, bearing in mind a particularly sensitive

2 problem that's identified in the pleadings, was identified on the last

3 occasion and will be well in mine of the Chamber, we've said so far as we

4 can, yes, if we can give general support to these applications we will,

5 but it's a matter between you and the Chamber. Nothing has been

6 formulated and this is simply going to add to the delay. And we would ask

7 the Chamber in its resolution or pro tem resolution of this matter to

8 ensure that it remains seized of these problems so that applications for

9 protection if any are to be either brought by the government or channelled

10 through us to Your Honours can be brought on swiftly, because this is the

11 sort of problem that is going to arise will be further resolution of the

12 differences between following on such court orders that may be made and/or

13 negotiation and then the next step will be, but we now want to make an

14 application for protection so you can't use the document. So another

15 witness will either have to give his evidence in part with the threat of

16 having to come back or will have to give his evidence from memory of

17 documents without being able to refer to them. We then have to put

18 documents in through other witnesses at a later stage and the Chamber will

19 have to join things up. This is extremely concerning for us. It's been

20 in our minds from the beginning. We've pressed them to do what they can

21 do, which is to bring their concerns of the particular type we believe may

22 underlie their anxiety not to produce some of these documents publicly to

23 you and they haven't done it.

24 I'm afraid that I do not necessarily see any parallel between the

25 arrest of the thousands of people and a denial of the suggestion that

Page 21692

1 evidence is being withhold -- withheld from us. These are entirely

2 separate activities, and they may serve entirely separate objectives.

3 What is clear is that there are considerable resources available

4 to the government of Serbia-Montenegro. There is enormous intelligence

5 available to it as witness the arrest of a thousand or 2000 people

6 referred to by Mr. Djeric. Those resources, although not identical to the

7 resources probably part of the same bodies as the resource required to

8 produce documents have produced for you in the two months and thereafter

9 two weeks since you made an order no documents in the list of 100.

10 Mr. Djeric asks you to make a penal order dismissing a certain

11 request for assistant. That would be entirely inappropriate in our

12 submission. I haven't been able to tie them all up and I've only of

13 course seen the particular document that was submitted today and can't

14 deal with it on that basis, but I can tell you this, that all the requests

15 for assistance that have been withdrawn have been all, bar possibly one,

16 are outside the list of 100, and they've either been withdrawn because

17 further materials were provided so that they could be closed either before

18 or after the last hearing and/or because in light of the cooperation that

19 is said to be coming and we can accept in respect of those particular

20 documents may be coming, we don't seek to trouble the Chamber. We accept,

21 particularly for certain categories of documentation, that we have an

22 expectation of getting more. These are of course not the most important

23 documents, not the documents likely to provide the most revealing

24 evidence. If we accept we're going to get more, we really don't need to

25 trouble you, and therefore, it's our attitude of cooperation in part and

Page 21693

1 the provision of documents by the government that has led to our being

2 able to withdraw those particular applications and there is no need for

3 the Chamber to make any further order in respect of them.

4 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Nice, the time --

5 MR. NICE: That's all I have is to say.

6 JUDGE MAY: Yes. The time is now up. We'll consider these

7 matters and give our ruling in due course in writing.

8 --- Whereupon the Motion Hearing adjourned

9 at 4.41 p.m.

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