Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia>

Page 21943

1 Monday, 10 June 2003

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 [The witness entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 9.14 a.m.

6 JUDGE KWON: Before we begin, I'd like to apologise to all of the

7 people here concerned. I was stuck in traffic due to road construction.

8 I was late a little bit. I'm sorry about that.

9 JUDGE MAY: Very well. We have Witness C-047 to conclude.

10 According to my note, Mr. Milosevic, you have an hour and a quarter

11 cross-examination.

12 WITNESS: WITNESS C-047 [Resumed]

13 [Witness answered through interpreter]

14 Cross-examined by Mr. Milosevic: [Continued]

15 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. C-047, you showed us a certificate testifying

16 to the fact that you were in the 4th Lika Brigade in the autumn and winter

17 of 1991 to 1992; is that right?

18 A. I said that I was not there.

19 Q. And where -- how come we have this certificate?

20 A. The volunteers who were there brought me that certificate and I

21 stated straight away that I was not actually there myself.

22 Q. I'm not saying what you said. This is what it says on the

23 certificate.

24 A. No. That is indeed what it says on the certificate but I was not

25 there.

Page 21944

1 Q. Does that mean that this is a forgery, a forged certificate?

2 A. The certificate is original, but what I'm saying is that I wasn't

3 there.

4 Q. Well, I don't understand this. You say that the certificate is

5 the original one, but the fact that your name is written there, that is

6 not correct; is that it?

7 A. I was not there. It does say so in the paper, in the document.

8 Q. Well, how come you weren't there and yet you're given orders and

9 travel instructions to travel to Belgrade at the time you were not there,

10 travel from the unit?

11 A. I was in Petrinje, in the -- I was not in the 4th Lika Brigade.

12 Q. You didn't travel to Belgrade? So as you weren't there, you

13 couldn't have travelled from -- to Belgrade from the unit --

14 A. I'm telling you I was not there.

15 Q. And what about these certificates giving you travel authorisation

16 from Belgrade from the 4th Lika Brigade? Is that something that has been

17 invented, fabricated?

18 A. No, it is not.

19 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour.

20 JUDGE MAY: Yes.

21 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: I think the witness should be given those

22 certificate, because there are three different certificates and there may

23 be a confusion now.

24 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Which numbers, please? Which tab numbers.

25 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: The first tab number, that's the one from the

Page 21945

1 Lika Brigade. That's number 12. And the other are number 13 and number

2 14.

3 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Let the witness have the documents.

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Do you mean this 4th Lika one?

5 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

6 Q. Yes. And it says that you were there from 1991 to 1992.

7 A. That's what it says here. That's what is written. But I wasn't

8 there. They sent me the certificate because I was the commander of the

9 unit.

10 Q. And what about these travel authorisations? Did they send you

11 that too?

12 A. This is an order for Petrinje. I was there.

13 Q. When was that?

14 A. Let me just take a look at the date. One was there on the 18th of

15 March, 1994, and the other was the 5th of October, 1993, when the unit

16 went to Petrinje, or rather --

17 Q. All right. The certificate that relates to 1991 and 1992, that is

18 the period of time when the JNA was in the area while Yugoslavia still

19 existed; is that right?

20 A. Yes, the JNA was there.

21 Q. Because this is the beginning of 1992.

22 A. Yes, the JNA did exist then.

23 Q. And it was a unit within the composition of the JNA; isn't that

24 right?

25 A. Probably.

Page 21946

1 Q. So you don't know any specific details about that.

2 A. Milan Stojanovic was at the head of this particular unit.

3 Q. All right. When you were asked during the examination-in-chief

4 with respect to the records, you said that the records were kept by the

5 Territorial Defence and the JNA, depending on which formation one belonged

6 to; is that right?

7 A. Yes, that's right.

8 Q. And is it also right, what the Serbian Radical Party claims, that

9 they recruited volunteers exclusively for the JNA and the Territorial

10 Defence?

11 A. I didn't understand that question.

12 Q. I said is it true and correct what is otherwise claimed by the

13 Serbian Radical Party, and that is that it recruited volunteers

14 exclusively for the JNA and the Territorial Defence?

15 A. The Serbian Radical Party had its Chetnik Movement, and those

16 units, when they went into the field, either belonged to the TO or the

17 JNA.

18 Q. Does that mean then that the volunteers were recruited for the JNA

19 and the TO?

20 A. It was the Serbian Chetnik Movement and could not work

21 independently and autonomously on the ground.

22 Q. In tab 16 -- let's just clear this up a minute. In tab 16, you

23 have an order which states towards the ends of the first paragraph,

24 "Within the composition of the Territorial Defence." That's what it says

25 here. Which means they were recruited to help make up the complement of

Page 21947

1 the Territorial Defence. And Western Slavonia is mentioned here, the

2 composition of the Territorial Defence; is that right?

3 A. I said that the Serbian Radical Party did have a Serbian Chetnik

4 Movement which was organised as a military formation, which was either

5 armed in Serbia, in Voj Potok [phoen], or elsewhere, when it went to the

6 TO, to the place it was being assigned to, or to the JNA command.

7 JUDGE MAY: Well, if you can deal with tab -- this document, tab

8 16, which speaks of all volunteers sent to Western Slavonia be put under

9 the command of a name as members of the Territorial Defence. What -- how

10 do you interpret that?

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That means every unit from Serbia,

12 the Serbian Chetnik Movement, when it goes into the field, has to report

13 to the TO or to JNA headquarters and command. And it says here that the

14 commander was Noncic Radovan. He was a member of the Serbian Radical

15 Party, the Serbian Chetnik Movement, and that he was going with the unit

16 within the composition of the Territorial Defence.

17 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

18 Q. No Chetnik Movement is mentioned here, only the Serbian Radical

19 Party is.

20 A. The Serbian Chetnik Movement was not registered.

21 Q. Was it a secret organisation, then?

22 A. It was a public organisation.

23 Q. And yet it wasn't registered?

24 A. It wasn't registered, Mr. Milosevic. But they were issued weapons

25 from the JNA, equipment, materiel, food was supplied, transport, et

Page 21948

1 cetera.

2 Q. Do you want to say that when you were a JNA reservist you were

3 armed like the rest of the reservists of the JNA?

4 A. No. But as Chetniks.

5 Q. Well, that is very difficult to believe. Do you have evidence and

6 proof of this?

7 A. Yes, I do.

8 Q. Well, you haven't presented any evidence to that effect here.

9 A. Well, I did mention an example in Bajina Basta where we were

10 issued weapons, and a complete military set of equipment --

11 Q. As for Bajina Basta, what I understood was that they disarmed you

12 and let you go.

13 A. That's not right. That's not correct.

14 Q. Well, these are facts that you spoke about yourself except that

15 you're saying that you went of your own free will.

16 A. That's not true, and you can check it out. You can check out the

17 reason for which I left the unit.

18 Q. All right. Now, how do you explain the second sentence in that

19 same order which says, "volunteers who leave the unit of their own accord

20 will be treated as fugitives of the Serbian Radical Party and the Serbian

21 Radical Party will not protect them in any way"?

22 A. I assume that applies to individual, but I don't know of than

23 example of that happening.

24 Q. Does that imply that certain individuals perform certain crimes

25 and they were sort of renegades, fugitives from the regular units to which

Page 21949

1 they had applied as volunteers and the Serbian Radical Party emphasises by

2 this that it won't protect them because it does not consider that -- that

3 to be lawful -- a lawful act? Is that right or not?

4 A. Well, I don't know that anybody was sent away from the battlefield

5 of the Serbian -- by the Serbian Radical Party.

6 Q. Well, the fact that you don't know about it, does that mean that

7 nobody was let go because he behaved -- they behaved in an undisciplined

8 manner or committed an offence of any kind or was arrested for committing

9 an offence of some kind?

10 A. I don't know about that.

11 Q. All right. Fine. In tab 9, it was said that fighters returning,

12 that for lack of discipline special records were kept of those offences.

13 So from those aspects, when you look at all those facts and data, as far

14 as I can see, insistence was made upon the fact that the volunteers in the

15 units in which they were registered had to behave properly in keeping with

16 military rules and regulations. Is that correct?

17 A. That's how it should have been in units and the command of those

18 units.

19 Q. All right. Fine. Now, tell me this, please: You mentioned a

20 crime perpetrated by those volunteers of yours, and you also said that

21 they killed three Croats. I'm sure you'll remember that.

22 A. My volunteers did not commit a single crime.

23 Q. No, they did not, did they? Well, whose volunteers were they,

24 then, these men who perpetrated the crime that you're talking about?

25 A. Are you talk about Vukovar? Is that what you mean?

Page 21950

1 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please. Microphone.

2 JUDGE MAY: I'm sorry, we didn't get the question. Would you

3 repeat the question, please, Mr. Milosevic.

4 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

5 Q. You mentioned the fact that these volunteers - that's what you

6 said - killed three Croats. That's what you said during your main

7 testimony. Is that right?

8 A. Which volunteers, Mr. Milosevic, and where?

9 Q. Those members of yours.

10 A. Not mine.

11 Q. Who then?

12 JUDGE MAY: Can you refer, a bit more precisely, to the incident

13 which you want the witness to deal with.

14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May, I have made a note of that

15 here.

16 JUDGE MAY: Yes. When --

17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I wrote down --

18 JUDGE MAY: Let's try and find it.

19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] -- What the witness was saying.

20 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

21 Q. Were you witness to any crime - let me turn the question round and

22 put it this way - did you witness any crime that was committed, any crime

23 at all? Did you witness a crime at all?

24 A. I saw the one in Tordinci and I did in Vukovar too, the premises

25 where they were killed. That's what I said. The Chetniks of Milan

Page 21951

1 Lancuzanin in a --

2 Q. What did you see there?

3 A. They said they had killed these three Croats and they took me to a

4 room, a bathroom.

5 Q. They told you they had killed these three Croats?

6 A. Yes. And then I was there when a young girl was brought in, and

7 they said in front of everybody that they would kill her, rape her, and

8 she never returned in fact.

9 Q. All right. Fine. Now, tell me this: In view of the position you

10 occupied, were these individuals people whom you knew?

11 A. I saw them for the first time then.

12 Q. Were they men from your party?

13 A. The Serbian Radical Party.

14 Q. You were able to identify them; right?

15 A. I could now. I couldn't at the time.

16 Q. All right. Now, in view of the job you did --

17 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

18 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

19 Q. -- Did you -- as to what you claim happened, did you table a

20 report, write a report to anybody?

21 A. I spoke to Jerinkic and told him what had happened.

22 Q. I'm not asking you whether you talked about it to anybody, but did

23 you file a report?

24 A. Not a written report.

25 Q. Well, do you know that you are duty-bound to compile a report even

Page 21952

1 when a travel accident occurs? And we're dealing with a killing here.

2 A. As I say, it was a killing on the battlefield in Croatia, and I

3 reported this orally.

4 Q. So may we take it and note that you did not table a report to

5 anybody that a killing had taken place?

6 A. I told Milan Jerinkic orally about that.

7 Q. What did you say?

8 A. I told him orally.

9 Q. I see, orally. So you didn't file a report of any kind.

10 A. No, not a written report.

11 Q. All right. Fine. Now, tell me, who's Mirko Blagojevic?

12 A. Mirko Blagojevic is a Chetnik commander. I think he's a Vojvoda.

13 Q. You think?

14 A. I'm sure he's a Vojvoda.

15 Q. Was he from Bijeljina?

16 A. He should be. I think he is.

17 Q. All right. Now, you showed us a statement here by him dated

18 September 1992. "In Northern Bosnia between the 24th to 25th of September

19 where he is protesting against a unit of some kind which seems to have

20 committed a killing, the killing of some Muslims. Is that right?

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, may I be allowed to

22 see the document, please?

23 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Tab 11.

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I've seen this document.

25 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Page 21953

1 Q. So does that mean that he protected Muslims?

2 A. No.

3 Q. Do you know that in Bijeljina and in that area in general there

4 were even units of the Army of Republika Srpska in which there was a large

5 number of Muslims?

6 A. I said that I was not aware of him having protected Muslims. He

7 disassociated himself from the crime that had been committed by the

8 police, according to this document, that is.

9 Q. All right. Does that mean that they considered the killing of

10 those Muslims a crime?

11 A. Of course, because they had not committed it. It was committed by

12 the police of the MUP of Republika Srpska, that is.

13 Q. Do you know that it was precisely them who tried to protect all

14 the Muslims in Bijeljina?

15 A. I'm not aware of that.

16 Q. You don't know anything about that?

17 A. I know what Arkan did, but I'm not aware of this protection.

18 Q. All right. You mentioned Vocin. Were you in Vocin?

19 A. No, but I did hear about the crime that was committed.

20 Q. And who was it that committed this crime?

21 A. As far as I know, members of the Serb Chetnik Movement.

22 Q. Oh, so they were the members of your movement?

23 A. Not of my movement.

24 Q. But you said that you joined that movement in order to topple

25 Milosevic and the Communists. That that's what you said by way of an

Page 21954

1 explanation in your statement.

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. So now, if you say that it was not your movement, make up your

4 mind. Is it your movement or is it not your movement?

5 A. I am not aware of that unit. My unit did completely different

6 things, and it was supposed to have completely different objectives.

7 However, you know that in Serbia there were a great many Chetnik units.

8 Q. Well, I assume, since you rallied together to topple me, as you

9 had put it, that you should know this better than me. So do you know, who

10 did this? Did you identify these persons?

11 A. No. I just know that they are Chetniks from Serbia, not from

12 Vojvodina.

13 Q. So you cannot identify these men but you know that they are

14 members of this same movement that you belonged to?

15 A. Yes. Yes.

16 Q. Tell me, since I cannot link all of this up somehow, what was your

17 role then? You were a member of the Serbian Chetnik Movement, you say.

18 Then you say here that they committed crimes. But at the same time, you

19 say that you have nothing to do with that. Now, tell me, who does have

20 something to do with that?

21 A. I don't have anything to do with these crimes and I don't know

22 whose -- under whose command they were, who their commander was.

23 Q. What was your role? Did you have a unit of the Serb Chetnik

24 Movement under your command?

25 A. Yes, from my territory, if I can put it that way. From the area

Page 21955

1 where I lived.

2 Q. All right. What was your role?

3 A. We also went to the frontline, but we did not commit crimes. We

4 did not loot, nothing.

5 Q. So your unit did not commit crimes and these other units did

6 commit crimes; is that right?

7 A. I'm not saying that all units did. I'm saying that individual

8 units did.

9 Q. Did you see a single one of these crimes that was committed by any

10 one of these units that you've referred to?

11 A. I said that I saw this in Vukovar, in Tordinci, I saw what

12 happened there, and --

13 Q. So in two places. You personally saw a crime in two places.

14 A. In that way, yes. But as for killings during the war, I saw that.

15 Q. What was that?

16 A. I saw this after the Chetniks would go by.

17 Q. Oh, so you would see it afterwards. Did you personally see a

18 killing being committed?

19 A. Yes, I did, in Njemci. But the man was already dead after I

20 arrived.

21 Q. So you did not see the actual killing -- the man had already been

22 dead?

23 A. They talked about it themselves.

24 Q. So you heard about this from the persons who were talking about

25 it?

Page 21956

1 A. I was there and I saw the corpse, the body of this man, if I can

2 put it that way.

3 Q. Did you submit a report about that?

4 A. No, I didn't.

5 Q. Why didn't you submit a report?

6 A. This was the war operation zone and the police from my area could

7 not do anything there.

8 Q. It can provide information; right?

9 A. Information to who, Mr. Milosevic?

10 Q. To the police.

11 A. I don't know which police.

12 Q. Other police in Serbia. If you assumed that this was done by

13 someone from Serbia, then it is logical that you should provide this

14 information to the police in Serbia. That is anybody's civic duty,

15 regardless of whether he or she is organised in a movement or not, like a

16 movement that you just referred to.

17 A. I was not aware of any such information having existed.

18 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

19 JUDGE MAY: Repeat the question, if you would.

20 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I asked, Mr. May, whether he

21 reported to anyone on this what he had heard. And we established that he

22 had heard it. But did he submit a report in writing? That was my

23 question.

24 JUDGE MAY: He's answered that question.

25 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Page 21957

1 Q. All right. Tell me, since you said several times that you had

2 long war experience, where did you acquire this experience?

3 A. I was at quite a few of these positions, as they were called,

4 Slavonia, Baranja, Bosnia.

5 Q. And now, describe this experience of yours to me, please, this

6 long war experience that you had.

7 A. What do you want know describe?

8 Q. What was your position? How did you acquire this experience? You

9 say that you took part in the Territorial Defence or in the JNA; is that

10 right?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And what did you do? Were you on the defence or did you go out to

13 kill?

14 A. Well, we were at positions, and at some places there were shooting

15 and at some places there was only guarding of these positions.

16 Q. All right. Who were you guarding these positions from?

17 A. Well, we were at the separation line with the Croats or with the

18 Muslims.

19 Q. You say on page 8 that the volunteers went through brief training

20 in Subotica at the police training ground at Veliki Radinovac. This was

21 at a state compound that was used by the SUP. According to the

22 information that I have, this is incorrect.

23 A. But it is correct. I was with them personally.

24 Q. Do you know that there was no training going on whatsoever in

25 Veliki Radinovac?

Page 21958

1 A. What do you mean no training? What do you mean -- I was there.

2 Q. You were there yourself?

3 A. I was there myself with them.

4 Q. Who was there with you?

5 A. Volunteers.

6 Q. Since you say that this is a police training ground.

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Were any of the police there?

9 A. I had agreed with Milan Jerinkic that I could go there for a

10 while.

11 Q. So there were no police there?

12 A. No, there was no need for them to be there.

13 Q. And now you claim that you had agreed on this with Jerinkic, that

14 you should go there; is that right?

15 A. That's right.

16 Q. All right. Explain this to me, please: Let me just have a look.

17 Let's see which tab this is. It looks like 21, tab 21. "Press

18 conference, with weapons." Tab 21.

19 JUDGE MAY: Let the witness have a copy of it.

20 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

21 Q. I am looking at this now. I'm looking at this facsimile of the

22 newspapers. It says "Press conference under arms." And then there's also

23 a headline saying "Timely action by the police," and it says that the

24 press conference had barely ended, the press conference of the Serb

25 Radical Party, when a statement arrived from the MUP that measures were

Page 21959

1 taken to identify men in camouflage uniform and under arms. Such swift

2 reaction is justified, because otherwise the public would certainly be

3 disturbed because over the local radio a report had been broadcast from

4 the press conference and immediately after that the statement of the MUP.

5 On the basis of which one may conclude that the state organs are prepared

6 in spite of the unstable situation in the country of the work they are in

7 charge of."

8 So you had a press conference here, and the MUP said that measures

9 were taken immediately to identify those who had this. And there was

10 swift reaction to what had been going on. So how can you say that in

11 agreement with the police you went there to some kind of training ground

12 where there is no police whatsoever but they told you that you could go

13 there and train? Is that right?

14 A. Well, that is right. We were there.

15 Q. You made all of this up.

16 A. No, I did not make it up. I was there myself.

17 Q. Tell me, do you know that this is on the outskirts of Subotica?

18 This is a suburb with family homes, and it's populated by Hungarians

19 predominantly. About 90 per cent of the population is Hungarian.

20 A. Mr. Milosevic, there is a training ground where we trained, and so

21 did the special police forces. All of this is within Veliki Radinovac. I

22 am very well aware of this terrain. A large amount of it is a forest.

23 Q. I assume that you know, but I have information here that says

24 there is barracks there with the regular army. So did you train near the

25 barracks?

Page 21960

1 A. Mr. Milosevic, the barracks is on the E-5 road, on the main road.

2 And this is a very big area, Veliki Radinovac. It's a large territory.

3 There is a populated area and there is a forest there too. There is a

4 vast forest.

5 Q. You went into the forest?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. To train?

8 A. Correct.

9 Q. There were no police there?

10 A. Certainly wasn't.

11 Q. But you did ask the police for permission to go and train there.

12 A. Yes, because my unit, this special police unit, did train

13 precisely in that area.

14 Q. Special police unit? You were talking about your group. You're

15 now talking about a special police unit.

16 A. Correct. The members of the Serb Chetnik Movement were being

17 trained there too.

18 Q. Are you talking about training of the special police unit or about

19 your training?

20 A. I'm saying that it's one and the same area, one and the same

21 training grounds.

22 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] What was that?

24 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone. We're sorry. We can't hear

25 anything.

Page 21961

1 JUDGE MAY: Just -- will you both -- will you both pause so that

2 we can get this microphone switched on.

3 Could you pause too, C-047?

4 Now, I don't quite know the point of this questioning. The

5 witness has said all along that it was members of his unit who were being

6 trained and that the police gave him permission to do so. I think we've

7 probably exhausted this matter. He's described where it was too.

8 Yes, if you'd go on.

9 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

10 Q. That you had approval of the police is something that you are just

11 claiming orally. Your don't really have any proof.

12 A. Mr. Milosevic, in appreciation of what Jerinkic did,

13 Dusko Stipanovic and Radovan Knezevic - but then he returned this - in

14 1992 these men were giving thank-you certificates for good cooperation.

15 This also had to do with the press conference that was held. So these

16 thank-you certificates were issued in writing.

17 Q. So you got thank-you certificates for this press conference that

18 the MUP reacted to?

19 A. Not me. It was this head of MUP precisely who got this thank-you

20 certificate from the Serb Chetnik Movement, whereas Radovan Knezevic

21 refused to accept it and he returned it.

22 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

23 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

24 Q. On page 8, paragraph 7 you say that all Serbs at that time were

25 sympathisers of the Serb Radical Party?

Page 21962

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

Page 21963

1 A. I didn't mean it quite literally, but a large number at any rate.

2 Q. All right. If you say that there was a large number of

3 sympathisers at the Serb Radical Party, how many votes did the Serb

4 Radical Party win in the elections, considering this large number of

5 sympathisers?

6 A. Enough.

7 Q. What was that?

8 A. Enough.

9 Q. Do you know anything about this?

10 A. I did not really follow elections. I wasn't interested in that.

11 Q. Do you know that these figures are in contrast to what you've been

12 claiming all along?

13 A. I know that there were a great many members of the Serb Radical

14 Party, members of the Serb Chetnik Movement, and sympathisers, a great

15 many.

16 Q. That's why I asked you. How many votes did this mean for the Serb

17 Radical Party in the elections when it had so many sympathisers?

18 A. I've already said, Mr. Milosevic, that I was not interested in

19 politics. I am not interested in politics, especially not those

20 elections.

21 Q. Can you enumerate all the places where you fought at the

22 frontline? According to what I received here, you haven't been anywhere,

23 and you're making all this up.

24 A. I did. And on the 27th of July, I was proclaimed a colonel.

25 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters did not hear the question.

Page 21964

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Vojvoda Abramovic and another

2 Vojvoda were at the Adult Education University in March --

3 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation].

4 Q. You got the rank of colonel?

5 A. Yes, I did.

6 JUDGE MAY: We're having problems with the microphone. I'm just

7 going to ask the registrar about it.

8 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

9 JUDGE MAY: Now, look, the problem is that you mustn't respond,

10 Witness C-047, until you see his, the accused's, microphone off. Could

11 you watch his microphone and it's only when it's off that you respond.

12 You both speak the same language, and it's difficult for anyone to

13 keep up if we don't keep these pauses.

14 Yes.

15 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

16 [redacted]

17 [redacted]

18 [redacted]

19 [redacted]

20 [redacted]

21 [redacted]

22 [redacted]

23 [redacted]

24 [redacted]

25 [redacted]

Page 21965

1 [redacted]

2 [redacted]

3 [redacted]

4 [redacted]

5 [redacted]

6 [redacted]

7 [redacted]

8 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

9 Q. Oh, you were very generous with all these ranks amongst

10 yourselves.

11 Tell me, on page 10, paragraph 4, you say that "Vojvoda Momcilo

12 Djuic was the greatest donor you had and that he lived in Toronto and that

13 he sent money from there." Is that right?

14 A. As far as I know, Vojvoda Seselj got a large amount of money from

15 Djuic when he was proclaimed a Vojvoda.

16 Q. I am asking you whether this is what you stated. "He was the

17 greatest donor. He lived in Toronto, Canada, and he sent money there. "

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. And do you know at all that Djuic did not live in Toronto, Canada.

20 He lived in California, in the USA?

21 A. Possibly I made a mistake, but I know that he sent money.

22 Q. What is it that you know and what is it that you made a mistake

23 about?

24 A. I know that when Vojvoda Seselj was proclaimed a Vojvoda, that

25 Djuic gave him a large amount of money for the organisation of Serb

Page 21966

1 Chetnik units for the struggle against communism. That was the objective.

2 Q. I'm asking you about the other thing. You claimed that he lived

3 in Canada and that he sent money from there, from Toronto, and he never

4 lived in Canada. He lived in America -- or rather, in the United States

5 of America, in California at that.

6 A. Possibly I might have made a mistake.

7 Q. Is it possible that you might have made a mistake in terms of

8 everything that you've been talking about?

9 A. No, that is not possible. I am giving arguments.

10 Q. All right. All right. Let's change the subject, then, please.

11 Do you know who collected humanitarian aid during the war for the

12 war-ravaged areas, food, medical supplies, clothing, blankets, and these

13 supplies were accompanied by appropriate documents, stamped documents from

14 the Red Cross in Subotica and so on and so forth? Do you know who was

15 involved in that?

16 A. The Red Cross, as far as I know, sent aid through the SPS, whereas

17 the radicals collected aid in a different manner.

18 Q. The certificate returned to those who were sending aid.

19 Therefore, the Socialist Party of Serbia sent aid in food, medicine,

20 clothing, blankets, et cetera, through the Red Cross of Subotica; is that

21 right?

22 A. Yes, it is.

23 Q. On page 10, paragraph 3 you say that your financing went through

24 the Radikal Komerc company; is that right?

25 A. Yes.

Page 21967

1 Q. According to my information, this firm founded in 1992, Radikal

2 Komerc was founded by some citizen and not by the party.

3 A. That is not true.

4 Q. I see. It is not true. Is the following true that I have as

5 information? It's quite possible that my information may be wrong. Just

6 say yes or no. Do you know that this company functioned for less than two

7 months and that on its account there is no input or output of a single

8 dinar and that the director of the company was a certain Nebojsa Ilic who

9 was --

10 JUDGE MAY: One thing at a time. One thing at a time.

11 What is alleged, Witness C-047, is that, first of all, the company

12 functioned for less than two months. Would you agree with that or not?

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] For how long it lasted, I don't

14 know. But I know who founded and when it was founded. And the offices

15 were in the premises of the Serbian Radical Party.

16 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

17 Q. According to information checked by my associates, there was not a

18 single dinar paid in or withdrawn from those -- from that account during

19 those two months. It was a firm that somebody wanted to start operating

20 but it never succeeded. So there's not a single dinar being paid in or

21 withdrawn from their account. Do you know Nebojsa Ilic?

22 A. I do know him. But you didn't mention Djordjija Lekic. He led

23 that company. He was in charge.

24 Q. According to my information, the director was Nebojsa Ilic.

25 A. Possibly. But I know Djordjija Lekic.

Page 21968

1 Q. But this Nebojsa Ilic was quickly eliminated.

2 A. No, I don't know that. He completed his education and then he

3 went back to Sabac.

4 Q. And you explain here the reason for your conflict. Tell me,

5 please, who is Vujic?

6 A. Bozidar Vujic.

7 Q. You had a conflict with Vujic?

8 A. Yes, I had some disagreements with him.

9 Q. And who is this Vujic?

10 A. What do you mean who? He's a man from Subotica, Bozidar Vujic. He

11 worked in the 29th of November company in the warehouse. He was a founder

12 of the Serbian Radical Party in Subotica. As far as I know, he is a

13 member of parliament today.

14 Q. As he was a warehouse-keeper in the 29th of November Meat

15 Processing Factory and he's the person who founded the Serbian Radical

16 Party in Subotica?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. From what it says on page 10, you had a dispute with him because

19 you did not want to take part in killings of citizens and other crimes,

20 but that it was customary for your volunteer units to kill and loot. Did

21 Vujic ask you to kill and loot?

22 A. This is not worded properly. I mention again the volunteer unit

23 from Subotica did not kill or loot.

24 Q. I asked you something else. Did Vujic asked you to kill and loot?

25 A. He asked us to go into the field.

Page 21969

1 Q. Did he ask you to kill and loot?

2 A. Well, that was normal. If you go there, that was logical. What

3 would you do? What else would you do?

4 Q. So it was logical for you when you go into the field to kill and

5 loot over there. And you went there to kill and loot. But you didn't

6 kill and loot. Is that what you're claiming?

7 A. No.

8 Q. What are you claiming?

9 JUDGE MAY: I think we've been over this. We've been over this

10 many times. Let's go on to something else.

11 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

12 [redacted]

13 [redacted]

14 [redacted]

15 [redacted]

16 JUDGE MAY: Redacted.

17 Yes. Yes, Mr. Milosevic.

18 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

19 Q. Very well. I hope we are not in private session.

20 JUDGE MAY: No.

21 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

22 [redacted]

23 [redacted]

24 [redacted]

25 [redacted]

Page 21970

1 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, this was in private session.

2 JUDGE MAY: Private session.

3 [Private session]

4 [redacted]

5 [redacted]

6 [redacted]

7 [redacted]

8 [redacted]

9 [redacted]

10 [redacted]

11 [redacted]

12 [redacted]

13 [redacted]

14 [redacted]

15 [redacted]

16 [redacted]

17 [redacted]

18 [redacted]

19 [redacted]

20 [redacted]

21 [redacted]

22 [redacted]

23 [redacted]

24 [redacted]

25 [redacted]

Page 21971

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13 Pages 21971-21975 redacted private session

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

Page 21976

1 [redacted]

2 [redacted]

3 [redacted]

4 [Open session]

5 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session.

6 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

7 Q. You did speak about Hrtkovci then; right? And that a man was

8 found killed in the field there; right?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Now, do you know that an investigation was conducted into that

11 affair?

12 A. No, I don't know that. I'm not aware of that.

13 Q. And do you know that that was the only incident that took place

14 throughout that region, and do you know that after that the police was

15 sent into Hrtkovci - Hrtkovci is a very small place with no police

16 force - but the police were sent there to protect the place from people

17 that could inflict this kind of harm against somebody there?

18 A. That was the only killing, but it wasn't the only incident that

19 took place.

20 Q. All right. The only incident. Now, do you know that an

21 investigation was conducted and that immediately afterwards the police

22 were sent there to stay permanently and prevent any future incidents from

23 taking place?

24 A. I know that some policemen were sent there from Sremska Mitrovica,

25 I believe.

Page 21977

1 Q. Yes, that's right. To protect and safeguard those people there.

2 And were there any incidents after that?

3 A. The young man who led the unit from Sremska Mitrovica, he himself

4 beat those people and mistreated them. I'm sure you know that too.

5 Q. What did you say? Mistreated and beat the inhabitants?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. What was his name? What was the name of this person who was sent

8 there to protect and safeguard the population and then proceeded to beat

9 and mistreat them?

10 A. I can't remember his name, but I will do so. And the young man

11 was sent back and he's still working in the police force today, as far as

12 I know.

13 Q. So are you really claiming that a policeman sent with a group of

14 other policemen following an incident that took place to protect and

15 safeguard that locality, to prevent any further violence, then engaged in

16 the beating of the inhabitants? Is that what you're saying?

17 A. Yes, that is what I'm saying.

18 Q. All right. I won't belabour that point and comment further. I

19 don't want to comment on things like that. It would be quite tasteless,

20 out of place.

21 Tell me this now, please: You said that you saw Seselj before a

22 very difficult operation in the area of the Perucac lake near the electric

23 powerplant. What kind of operation was there on the territory of Serbia?

24 Tell me that. What was this operation?

25 A. We've already discussed that point. It was the hydroelectric

Page 21978

1 powerplant, Peruca, where I was with my unit. We were stationed in

2 Skelani, and then we went to Serbia. From Serbia, we crossed the dam.

3 And from the Serb side, there were tanks.

4 Q. Mr. C-047, is it true that you went there of your own free will

5 and that the police disarmed you and threw you out of the area?

6 A. That is absolutely not true. Absolutely incorrect. If you have

7 information of that kind, then you must have information from the lake,

8 and you know what went on there.

9 Q. All right. Fine. Your answer suffices, as far as that matter is

10 concerned.

11 Now, you also say that in 1995 you escaped to Arkan in Erdut from

12 Subotica, that you fled from Subotica to Erdut. Is that right?

13 A. I didn't flee. I went.

14 Q. Well, I'm just recapitulating what you said. You said that you

15 had a conflict with the police in Subotica, a clash. Is that right?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Because of that clash with the police force, you fled across the

18 border into Eastern Slavonia; right?

19 A. No. I went to Belgrade first.

20 Q. And then to Erdut.

21 A. To Belgrade, to Ljutice Bogdana 1 Street and then we went on in a

22 car.

23 Q. And you then went to Erdut.

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And what about Arkan's Volunteer Guards? Were they a component

Page 21979

1 part of the Serbian Army of Krajina at that time? That's right, isn't it?

2 A. Yes, I assume it was.

3 Q. So you joined up. You joined the unit, which was under the

4 composition of the Serbian Army of Krajina.

5 A. Yes, I did go there. That's quite true.

6 Q. And you yourself decided to leave Subotica because you clashed

7 with the police there?

8 A. Well, why should I ask anybody whether I should leave town or not?

9 It's up to me. It depends on what I decide.

10 Q. Well, that's what I say. It's up to you, your right to move

11 around, and I assume that refers to any other citizen and inhabitant that

12 decides to leave and become a volunteer?

13 A. Yes, it is every citizen's right to leave.

14 Q. Do you know how many thousands of Muslims left Sandzak like you

15 did, yourself, to fight on the side of Alija Izetbegovic, for example?

16 A. Yes, I do know. Quite a lot of people.

17 Q. Were they perhaps sent by our police or government or something

18 like that?

19 A. I really can't say. I don't want to delve into those matters.

20 Q. All right. Fine. Tell me this, please: You say that it was

21 quite by chance, so not in any combat operation, that you were wounded in

22 November 1995.

23 A. It was a small injury.

24 Q. All right, a small injury. But you went to hospital.

25 A. Yes, if you're talking about 1995.

Page 21980

1 Q. So you were wounded in November 1995?

2 A. No. This was just an injury. I twisted my foot.

3 Q. But you were in hospital in November 1995, were you?

4 A. Yes, in Vukovar to begin with and then in Subotica after that.

5 Q. How long did you stay in hospital?

6 A. I didn't. They just put a plaster cast on my leg.

7 Q. All right. Fine. I see. And then they went to visit you, did

8 they?

9 A. Yes, that's correct.

10 Q. And then they told you that they were to go to Bosnia, to

11 Sanski Most; right?

12 A. Yes, right. Correct.

13 Q. That's what they told you in November 1995.

14 A. The officer whose nickname was Niski, he told me that. He was an

15 officer of the Serbian Volunteer Guard, and his nickname was Niski. He

16 was the one who told me that. He said that they were to go to Bosnia.

17 Q. I see, to Bosnia. And then he mentioned Sanski Most, did he?

18 A. I think he did, yes. I think he mentioned Sanski Most.

19 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

20 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

21 Q. Do you know that in November 1995 the Dayton Agreement was signed,

22 that the war ceased on the territory of Bosnia-Herzegovina?

23 A. I know that it was signed. Now, whether war operations ceased, I

24 really can't say.

25 Q. Do you know of any war operations after November 1995, then?

Page 21981

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

Page 21982

1 A. I wasn't there.

2 Q. All right, fine.

3 A. But later on I heard that a unit of the Serbian Guards were in

4 fact in Sanski Most in 1995.

5 Q. Well, to be specific, you said you were there in November 1995 and

6 that they told you that they were to go to Sanski Most and Bosnia in the

7 coming period and it was at that time that the peace agreements were

8 signed and that all operations ceased in the area. So that was your

9 fabrication, wasn't it?

10 A. No. The unit withdrew in 1996, the Army of Yugoslavia, back to

11 the barracks as far as I know.

12 Q. All right. Now, linked to that, and immediately following that,

13 you said that in Vukovar you saw one particular JNA unit. When did you

14 see a JNA unit in Vukovar at all?

15 A. A JNA unit?

16 Q. Yes.

17 A. I said I saw the military police of the Kragujevac Corps in Leva

18 Supoderica in 1991.

19 Q. All right, in 1991. So what you want to say is when the JNA was

20 throughout the territory of Yugoslavia, stationed, there, and you saw one

21 particular unit in Vukovar.

22 A. I just named one place, one location, and said there were there.

23 Whereas, in Partizanska Street, I think it was the command and

24 headquarters of the Novi Sad Corps that was stationed there.

25 Q. Let's clear this point up. You saw the JNA in 1991; is that

Page 21983

1 right?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Now, as this was immediate -- came immediately after your story

4 about 1995, I linked this up to the year 1995 when it was impossible for

5 you to see the JNA. Now, we've clarified this. You saw the JNA, in fact,

6 in 1991; is that right?

7 A. Yes, in 1991.

8 Q. Thank you. That's a very useful explanation you've just given us.

9 And what you indicated to us on the videotape, which does not

10 refer actually to what you yourself saw but is an illustration of where

11 Arkan, Hadic are in Vukovar in November 1991; that's it, isn't it?

12 A. Yes, it's the liberation of Vukovar -- or rather, after the fall

13 of Vukovar. That's when that was taken, that footage.

14 Q. It wasn't footage of an event you witnessed. All you did was to

15 identify the two men; right?

16 A. I was in Vukovar after that, afterwards.

17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I just take a moment to consult

18 my notes?

19 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

20 Q. Now, you mention Ovcara, on page 11, paragraph 6 of your

21 statement. Is it true that you do not have any knowledge about the events

22 that took place in Vukovar at the -- after the factory farm?

23 A. I stated whom I heard this from, who told me about what happened.

24 Q. So you spoke about what was rumoured; is that it?

25 A. I give the name of the man who was very close to Milan Lancuzanin,

Page 21984

1 Kameni, the Chetnik commander. And he told me. But I wasn't there, so I

2 can't say myself.

3 Q. So you have no personal knowledge.

4 A. No.

5 Q. All you know is what you heard about.

6 A. Right. Correct.

7 Q. All right. Now, let me ask you this: Did you ever hear that the

8 JNA had anything to do with Ovcara and the events at Ovcara?

9 A. Yes, I did.

10 Q. What did you say?

11 A. Yes, I did.

12 Q. Which JNA unit had anything to do with the events in Ovcara?

13 A. The Belgrade Guards unit.

14 Q. And you claim that they were present in Ovcara when the crime took

15 place?

16 A. To the best of my information, both of them were there, the army

17 and paramilitary, if you like to put it that way.

18 Q. Did that same man tell you that, the man that told you about who

19 the perpetrators were?

20 A. What do you mean? What are you referring to?

21 Q. The man who rallied these people up in Ovcara?

22 A. I know from the media that it was the Army of Yugoslavia.

23 Q. Oh, I see. You've heard this from the media. That's how you come

24 to know it. That's sufficient. Fine. That's enough for me. The fact

25 that you know this from the media is not the subject of testimony here.

Page 21985

1 JUDGE MAY: You have five minutes left, Mr. Milosevic.

2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right, Mr. May. Fine. I'm just

3 trying to use my time as best as possible and to sort out the questions

4 and select the ones I wish to ask, because I have a lot of material here.

5 All sorts of untruths have been uttered here.

6 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

7 Q. You say that in Hrtkovci there was a unit from the composition of

8 these special police units.

9 A. You said that yourself a moment ago as well.

10 Q. Was the police there?

11 A. As far as I know, yes, it was.

12 Q. All right, then. Of course it was there.

13 Now, on page 12, paragraph 6, you state that it was under the

14 command of Pera Skokandic; is that right?

15 A. I know that the unit was from Sremska Mitrovica and that it was

16 withdrawn. I think that this was replaced by the Novi Sad unit with this

17 man at its head.

18 THE INTERPRETER: I'm sorry, the microphone was off.

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think he was the commander of the

20 unit.

21 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

22 Q. All right. And were they there to protect and safeguard the

23 people from anything happening to them, to prevent an incident breaking

24 out? Because you just mention this one man.

25 A. I know what the police ought to have been doing.

Page 21986

1 Q. Yes. But their assignment, did they carry it out or not? That's

2 what I'm asking you now.

3 A. I don't think they did it to the best of their ability, as it

4 should have been carried out.

5 Q. Well, is this the same man, Skokandic, who was the deputy of the

6 president of the reformist party in Vojvodina?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. So he mistreated the citizens of Hrtkovci; is that right?

9 A. Not him. I mentioned the Sremska Mitrovica unit that was

10 replaced.

11 Q. What I'm asking you now, you say that there were some people there

12 from Novi Sad. Were they safeguarding and protecting the people?

13 A. Yes, the Novi Sad unit was protecting these locals of Hrtkovci.

14 The few men that stayed on, I assume that they protected the people.

15 Q. All right. The few of them who remained, as you put it.

16 Now, you say that in Subotica you saw Serb -- houses of non-Serbs

17 marked with a cross of some kind, and you say this on page 13, paragraph

18 3. You mention that.

19 A. Yes. It says in Hrtkovci, not Subotica.

20 Q. Hrtkovci.

21 A. I refer to Hrtkovci in this paragraph.

22 Q. Well, is the population mostly non-Serb?

23 A. Where?

24 Q. Well, in Hrtkovci, were the houses marked in this way?

25 A. They weren't marked like that, but there were other incidents.

Page 21987

1 Q. What incidents? You say that the cathedral in Subotica was blown

2 up.

3 A. The doors to the cathedral.

4 Q. In your statement, you say that the cathedral was bombed and blown

5 up.

6 A. Well, the doors are a part of the cathedral.

7 Q. Well, some person motivated by political motives placed an

8 explosive device at the door. Is there a difference between that and

9 blowing up the cathedral?

10 A. It's all the same thing, because the doors are part of the

11 building. They were enormous, large wooden heavy doors.

12 Q. All right. Now, do you know that an investigation was conducted

13 with respect to this offence and that criminal proceedings were launched

14 against the perpetrators of that crime and that they were condemned for

15 this act and that they weren't members of the Serbian Radical Party at

16 all, by the way?

17 A. I don't know about that. I'm not aware of that.

18 Q. So actually, you don't know anything about the whole thing.

19 A. No, I don't. But I think I know who the perpetrators were. And

20 when the bomb was planted on -- at the school in Velegija Street. I know

21 about that, and who planted the bomb there.

22 Q. My question to you was: Do you know that an investigation was

23 conducted and that the perpetrators were brought to justice, that they

24 were found guilty of the offence?

25 A. No, I don't know about that.

Page 21988

1 Q. And you don't know that they weren't even members of the Serbian

2 Radical Party?

3 A. No, I don't.

4 JUDGE MAY: This must be your last question now.

5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, I do have a few other matters

6 to ask with respect to these alleged explosions in Subotica.

7 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

8 Q. If a bomb wasn't thrown at any Hungarian school but the Svetozar

9 Markovic school, which was a general school regardless of ethnic

10 affiliation.

11 A. The school was in Velegija Street.

12 Q. And do you know that a group of young people, young men, among

13 whom was this Bojanic whom you accuse, was hit by a shrapnel in the

14 school -- on the school premises when somebody threw a bomb?

15 A. Well, I wasn't somebody. It was him. He threw the bomb.

16 Q. And do you know that the plaque bearing the name of the poet Geza

17 Kostolany [phoen], a Hungarian poet, in fact, a local of those regions,

18 which was placed on the wall of the school building, was not damaged at

19 all?

20 A. No, it wasn't, because the bomb wasn't placed there.

21 Q. But you said that they planted a bomb to blow up the plaque with

22 this poet's name on it, and it wasn't damaged at all.

23 A. I didn't say it was.

24 JUDGE MAY: Very well. The time is now up.

25 Mr. Tapuskovic, have you questions for this witness?

Page 21989

1 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, I do have questions, Your

2 Honour.

3 JUDGE MAY: Very well. After the adjournment.

4 We'll adjourn now, 20 minutes.

5 --- Recess taken at 10.33 a.m.

6 --- On resuming at 10.56 a.m.

7 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Tapuskovic.

8 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

9 Questioned by Mr. Tapuskovic:

10 Q. [Interpretation] I would like to ask you to pay attention to tab

11 21, 458.

12 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] And I would kindly like to ask

13 for private session. Briefly, please.

14 [Private session]

15 [redacted]

16 [redacted]

17 [redacted]

18 [redacted]

19 [redacted]

20 [redacted]

21 [redacted]

22 [redacted]

23 [redacted]

24 [redacted]

25 [redacted]

Page 21990

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13 Page 21990 redacted private session

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

Page 21991

1 [redacted]

2 [redacted]

3 [redacted]

4 [redacted]

5 [redacted]

6 [redacted]

7 [redacted]

8 [redacted]

9 [redacted]

10 [redacted]

11 [redacted]

12 [redacted]

13 [redacted]

14 [redacted]

15 [redacted]

16 [Open session]

17 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session.

18 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]

19 Q. So, Witness, if you did the work you did, like many other types of

20 work that I know - and this pertained to them too - were you able to be in

21 this particular line of work without being a member of the Communist Party

22 at the same time?

23 A. I had to be a member of the Communist Party.

24 Q. So you were a member of the Communist Party?

25 A. Yes.

Page 21992

1 Q. And you joined the Radical Party, as you put it, precisely because

2 you wanted to do away with the members of the Communist Party that were

3 supposed to be overthrown.

4 A. Yes. I lived from this work, and I was a member of the Communist

5 Party for five years only.

6 Q. And after that you decided to do what you decided to do, to

7 struggle against this same Communist Party that practically supported you

8 and on whose income you lived.

9 A. Any political orientation was different, but this was a job I did

10 and that I lived on.

11 Q. At any rate, in respect to the war, when war was mentioned in

12 1991, it was said that the monarchists had to do away with the communists.

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Could you please explain to the Trial Chamber a few things that

15 have to do with Kosovo. I'm now going to mention the work that you did.

16 In your statement, in the statement you gave here, and in the statement

17 that you gave to the investigators, I see that due to your work, you were

18 in Kosovo for a rather long period of time, between 1985 and 1989, and

19 then in 1988 too, and after 1990; is that right?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. You said here: "I remember that in 1988 there was a big clash in

22 Priluzje where several Kosovo Albanian demonstrators and two to three

23 Serbian policemen got killed." So is it correct that in these clashes in

24 1988 three Serb policemen were killed?

25 A. I think so. I don't know whether it was two or three, though.

Page 21993

1 Q. All right. Is it also correct that in this period of time, before

2 1989, there were quite a few other such incidents?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Can you give us at least an approximation of the number of

5 policemen who were victims in the clashes between the police and the

6 demonstrators between 1985 and 1989? Can you give us an approximation?

7 A. I know that there were quite a few, but I don't actually know the

8 number of policemen killed.

9 Q. At any rate, these were actions aimed against the -- terrorist

10 attacks launched against the police and the citizenry, in that period of

11 time, between 1985 and 1990?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Did this happen after 1990 as well?

14 A. Of course.

15 Q. Precisely due to these terrorist actions, were Serbs migrating

16 from these areas? Were they leaving Kosovo under pressure between 1985

17 and 1990 and after 1990?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. And do you know that in these periods of time, between 1985 and

20 1990 and after 1990, there was a considerable number of emigres from

21 Albania who came from Albania to Serbia and settled there, although they

22 were not citizens of that country?

23 A. I know that.

24 Q. Was that a considerable number?

25 A. Yes.

Page 21994

1 Q. In the documents of your party, the number mentioned is 300.000

2 persons.

3 A. I don't know the exact number, but I know that such persons were

4 there.

5 Q. All right. Now I would like us to have a look at something

6 together, these documents, that is. And could you please explain to the

7 Trial Chamber some things in relation to this document. This document was

8 shown to you by the Prosecutor. This is Exhibit 458, tab 2. And it has

9 to do with the programme declaration of the Serb Radical Party for 1991.

10 Would you please have a look at this. The Prosecutor showed you

11 paragraph 2, paragraph 3, I think paragraph 1 too. But please look at

12 this first sentence. It is an introduction to the entire document. It

13 says: "On the basis of the programme and the statute adopted at the

14 founding assembly in Kragujevac on the 23rd of February, 1991"; is that

15 right?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. And then further on towards the end: "The Serb Radical

18 Party" - this is what it says here - "as it acts as an eminently

19 democratic organisation under the conditions of a multi-party system and

20 having opted for peaceful methods only, as regards political struggle,

21 proclaims its political objectives." This was in February 1991. So at

22 that moment was any reference made to the following, that these objectives

23 should be attained by peaceful means; yes or no?

24 A. I don't think so. This is just on paper. But it was quite

25 different.

Page 21995

1 Q. So what, communists and monarchists were supposed to have a

2 showdown already then?

3 A. Chetnik units were being established throughout Yugoslavia.

4 Q. For the monarchists to settle accounts with the communists?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. In all of Yugoslavia?

7 A. Serbia and Montenegro.

8 Q. Thank you. Now, I would be interested in the following, Article

9 25. The Prosecutor showed you this in the programme of the Serb Radical

10 Party, that expulsions should take place straight away, that is, the

11 beginning of 1991. All 360.000 Albanian emigres. So these were only

12 people who were staying in Serbia. That is what was done by all civilised

13 countries in the world when there are no proper conditions for this, that

14 emigres who do not have the citizenship of the country concerned should be

15 expelled from the country where they live.

16 A. I am not a politician, but I think Vojislav Seselj wrote this.

17 Q. But these are the people who emigrated from Albania, came to

18 Yugoslavia, stayed there for decades, for years, without having

19 citizenship.

20 A. There was a considerable number of them. I don't know.

21 Q. Thank you. Now I would like to draw the attention of the Trial

22 Chamber to tab 3. And that is the statute of the Serb Radical Party.

23 You know that the first statute was adopted in March 1991; is that

24 right?

25 A. Yes.

Page 21996

1 Q. And this is an amendment that was adopted on the 30th of January,

2 1994; is that right?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Now, please look at Article 87. That's the last article. There's

5 a translation of this too. This was adopted by the Third Congress of the

6 Serb Radical Party which was held in Belgrade on the 30th of January,

7 1994; is that right?

8 A. Yes, that's when the Serb Radical Party was registered.

9 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Could the Honourable Judges

10 please focus on this, on page -- on the last page of the Serb version of

11 this statute, because it says "Agreement on cooperation," and that part

12 had not been translated. But it is written in a language that the witness

13 knows very well.

14 I have a photocopy of this. Could the witness please look at this

15 document. It is in tab 3. And I would like to ask the witness something

16 in this connection.

17 Q. Witness, you can see here -- you can see here that the photograph

18 is missing. You can't see it. But it says "Doctors on the move.

19 Dr. Vojislav Seselj and Dr. Milan Babic." Is that right?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And then underneath that -- well, the statute was changed on the

22 30th of January, 1994. And then it says here, "In Belgrade, on the 2nd of

23 February, a joint press conference was held of Dr. Milan Babic and

24 Dr. Vojislav Seselj. It was publicly stated that the two most significant

25 parties in the territory of Srpska Krajina made an agreement in order to

Page 21997

1 promote their joint political objectives that promote the priority state

2 interests of the Serb people in the Republika Srpska, the Republika Srpska

3 Krajina, in order to have stable conditions for the operation of its

4 government authorities." That is what Babic stated after the agreement

5 was signed. Do you know about that?

6 A. I know about that. Although, I was not doing this in 1994.

7 Q. And do you know that after they signed this agreement in 1994,

8 Seselj said - and I read - "Dr. Seselj said that for the continuation of

9 the coalition was of decisive importance was that the interests of the SRS

10 and the SDS of Republika Srpska and Republika Srpska Krajina coincided,

11 that is to say, that all the Serb territories should become part of one

12 state." Do you know about that?

13 A. Yes, I do.

14 Q. Was this an agreement between Babic and Seselj?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. So you know about that. And after that, what happened was that

17 the Serb Radical Party joined the government in the territory of the

18 Republika Srpska Krajina.

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Thank you. Now, I'll put three tabs together. I would just like

21 to read part of tab 11. And this same question pertains to what it says

22 in tab 16 and in tab 18. However, I would kindly like to ask the Trial

23 Chamber to look at tab 11, the last sentence.

24 You have stated your views with regard to this document, but this

25 is what the last sentence says. It was signed by Vojvoda

Page 21998

1 Mirko Blagojevic. It says: "The Serb Chetniks will truly and honourably

2 fight for the freedom of Republika Srpska and its international

3 affirmation within the Army of Republika Srpska." Is that right?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. So it is said within the Army of Republika Srpska. And these

6 other two documents do not make any reference to the Yugoslav People's

7 Army. Quite explicitly, in none of these documents is there any mention

8 of the Yugoslav People's Army or of the Army of Yugoslavia.

9 A. No, there is no mention sir, but they were present at the

10 frontline.

11 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] I will finish very fast. I have

12 nothing else in this connection.

13 Now I need tab 15. In tab 15 - and the Prosecution did not show

14 the witness tab 15 - but this is the third document in this tab. I would

15 just like to show the witness what it says here.

16 You said, Witness, what happened in Hrtkovci in 1992; is that

17 right?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. I don't want to take you back to that, but tell me first: How

20 many refugees during 1991 came from areas outside Serbia, from Bosnia,

21 Slavonia, to Serbia, during 1991, primarily in Vojvodina where you live.

22 Was it a considerable number?

23 A. It was a considerable number.

24 Q. Can you give us an approximate figure?

25 A. I cannot give you a figure.

Page 21999

1 Q. This is what it says on the document: "On the 11th of and

2 12th -- on the 11th of December, 1991, a column of refugees on tractors

3 moved through Western Slavonia from Okucani towards Banja Luka. The

4 refugees are on the tractors. Down the entire frontline which was held by

5 the Banja Luka Corps the situation was very difficult." Are you aware of

6 such information about refugees moving in this way?

7 A. Yes. And I am aware of this document.

8 Q. Oh, you are aware of this document too?

9 A. Yes, I am.

10 Q. Let me ask you just one more thing: In answer to a question from

11 the Prosecutor, you spoke about mosques destroyed. I am familiar with

12 that, and I'm sure there is data about this. But could you tell me: In

13 addition to Catholic churches, Roman Catholic churches and mosques, do you

14 know at all how many churches were destroyed in the areas of Croatia,

15 Krajina, Slavonia, Bosnia? Do you know whether any churches were

16 destroyed and how many?

17 A. I think I didn't mention mosques, but I do know that many churches

18 were destroyed.

19 Q. How many were destroyed?

20 A. Very few remained standing.

21 Q. Thank you very much.

22 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Tapuskovic, if you could help me with this. It's

23 about the agreement on cooperation between Mr. Seselj and Milan Babic.

24 Does it appear at the last page of the statute on the Serbian Radical

25 Party? Because I didn't bring my B/C/S version of that. Is it a kind of

Page 22000

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

Page 22001

1 Official Gazette?

2 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour Kwon, the statute was

3 published in the only journal that existed over there, and that was called

4 Greater Serbia, Velika Serbia. And it was published by editors who

5 represented the Radical Party. And in that journal, Velika Serbia, this

6 statute was published. It may have been published somewhere else. And

7 you have the translation of that statute up to Article 87. And in that

8 article, it says that "The statute was adopted on the 30th of January,

9 1994," and already on the 2nd of February this agreement was reached

10 between Babic and Seselj. After the peace negotiations, after the

11 Vance-Owen Plan, that is, three years after the peace talks had ended.

12 JUDGE KWON: Thank you. I got it.

13 JUDGE MAY: Yes. You did in fact refer to tab 15 I see from my

14 notes.

15 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes, I did. I did, Your Honour. And I have

16 a few questions that -- a few clarification.

17 JUDGE MAY: Yes.

18 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: And the first one is actually in -- I would

19 like to have closed session. The rest one in -- private session right

20 now.

21 [Private session]

22 [redacted]

23 [redacted]

24 [redacted]

25 [redacted]

Page 22002

1 [redacted]

2 [redacted]

3 [redacted]

4 [redacted]

5 [redacted]

6 [redacted]

7 [redacted]

8 [redacted]

9 [redacted]

10 [redacted]

11 [redacted]

12 [redacted]

13 [redacted]

14 [redacted]

15 [redacted]

16 [redacted]

17 [redacted]

18 [redacted]

19 [redacted]

20 [redacted]

21 [redacted]

22 [redacted]

23 [redacted]

24 [redacted]

25 [Open session]

Page 22003

1 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session.

2 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, we have actually discussed here

3 during the cross-examination of both Mr. Milosevic and Mr. Tapuskovic, we

4 had discussed the statement that the witness did. I suggest that we

5 exhibit it or at least mark it for identification.

6 JUDGE MAY: Yes. We have a vast amount of paper, and the fewer

7 statements we can have exhibited the better. Is there any particular

8 reason why we need this one?

9 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: No, I only thought because we referred so

10 often and you may want to check.

11 No, okay.

12 Q. Witness, Mr. Milosevic put to you that Seselj was imprisoned in

13 autumn 1990 and therefore you could not have met him, as you have

14 explained. And you would like to put to you, therefore, an article. And

15 we have prepared the article. It's an article called "Duke Seselj free

16 again." Could that be provided.

17 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, in the English translation,

18 there is no date.

19 Q. But, witness, if you look at the Serbian version, is that an

20 article of the 16th of November, 1990? And can you tell us which

21 newspaper it is?

22 A. Yes. I see that it is the Borba newspaper, a newspaper published

23 in Belgrade. And the date is the 16th of November, 1990.

24 Q. And in this first paragraph, I quote now, it says: "After 26 days

25 spent in prison, Duke Dr. Vojislav Seselj, independent presidential

Page 22004

1 candidate, is free again on probation." And my question to you is: Did

2 you meet him after the 16th of November or was it rather in September or

3 October? Do you recall that?

4 A. I think it was before he went to prison.

5 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, I would like to have this

6 exhibited.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, Prosecution Exhibit 458, tab 26.

8 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:

9 Q. In relation to the SRS party, Mr. Milosevic put to you that it did

10 not exist in 1990 and also not in the beginning of 1991. And you said as

11 an answer to this, "It existed, but under a different name." And I would

12 like now to put again to you the statute of the Serbian Radical Party of

13 1994 that we had just discussed -- that you had just discussed with

14 Mr. Tapuskovic. And I would like you to look at Article 5, the first two

15 paragraphs. It says here: "The party is the legal successor of the

16 Serbian Freedom Movement and the Serbian Chetnik Movement. The initiative

17 to form the Serbian Freedom Movement came on 6th of January, 1990 in

18 Belgrade from a group of citizens who signed the founding manifesto."

19 Hearing this name, Serbian Freedom Movement, is that a name you

20 are familiar with?

21 A. Yes. That is what I had in mind when I was referring to this

22 other name -- or rather, the first name of the Serbian Radical Party.

23 From this Serbian Freedom Movement, the Serbian Radical Party developed.

24 And the Serbian Chetnik Movement existed.

25 Q. In relation to the statute of the SRS party, Mr. Milosevic also

Page 22005

1 put to you that it didn't have a structure with provinces. And I would

2 like you -- to refer you now to paragraph -- to Article 58 of that same

3 statute. And it says here: "The parties organised in all Serbian lands,

4 regions, municipalities, and populated areas as well as abroad." And in

5 Article 62, it also speaks about "regional boards are formed by special

6 decisions of the administration." Do you recall that?

7 A. Yes, I am aware of that. That is how we formed it in Subotica.

8 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: And Your Honour, I would like to put to

9 you --

10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May.

11 JUDGE MAY: What is it, Mr. Milosevic?

12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I think that the question is

13 inappropriate because I didn't claim that they didn't have their branches

14 in various areas. But what I claimed was that no presidency of the

15 Serbian Radical Party or Vojvodina existed. As the witness indicated in

16 the diagram in tab 4, where it says "The presidency of the Serbian Radical

17 Party of Vojvodina, Maja Gojkovic, president of the presidency."

18 JUDGE MAY: Very well.

19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] So that is what I was claiming.

20 JUDGE MAY: Very well. You can't make another speech now.

21 Yes.

22 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: In this same context, I would like to have

23 displayed to the witness an article related to the person

24 Mirko Blagojevic, the Vojvoda that you have mentioned and that

25 Mr. Milosevic also had mentioned. And it is an article in Oslobodjenje,

Page 22006

1 5th of March, 1991, referring to Mirko Blagojevic.

2 Q. And you see, actually, in the first paragraph how he said, "Aside

3 from Dr. Vojislav Seselj, president of the Serbian Radical Party, and

4 Mirko Blagojevic, president of the regional board of this party for

5 north-eastern Bosnia. Do you recall that you had these structures and

6 presidents of these regional structures?

7 A. Yes, there were, quite certainly.

8 Q. In the examination-in-chief, you had mentioned that there was a VJ

9 unit with the name Kobras in Vukovar which you saw when you were in the

10 hospital there. With Mr. Milosevic, you discussed the JNA units present

11 in Vukovar, but you spoke only about the year 1991. And my question to

12 you is: When did you see the members of the Kobra unit? Which year?

13 A. When I was hurt in the Guards. That would be 1995.

14 Q. Mr. Tapuskovic put to you the point that you left Zvornik. And I

15 was a little bit puzzled about this. Did you ever fight in Zvornik, or is

16 that just a misunderstanding?

17 A. It's a misunderstanding. I was at the Bajina Basta Perucac hydro

18 powerplant. And I didn't go to Zvornik. Units of the Army of Yugoslavia

19 were there.

20 Q. And my last question relates to the situation in Kosovo in the

21 year 1988. And Mr. Tapuskovic put to you that the police was engaged

22 there in relation to terrorist activities. And my question to you is:

23 What exactly did you do? What did you -- what were you against? What

24 were you doing?

25 A. As a member of the police force, I had to go there. I spent there

Page 22007

1 a month and a half. There were demonstrations by the Albanians, the

2 Siptars, at the crossroads between Titova Mitrovica and Pristina Roads.

3 The police arrived with TABs, armoured vehicles, helicopters. There were

4 heavy machine-guns on these TABs. And this was in Priluzje. So I had to go

5 there on assignment. I received such orders.

6 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, this concludes my questions.

7 JUDGE MAY: Witness C-047, that concludes your evidence. You are

8 now free to go. Thank you for coming to the International Tribunal to

9 give your evidence. I'm sorry that you've been detained here so long to

10 give it and had to come back. Thank you.

11 If you'd just wait while the blinds are put down.

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

13 [The witness withdrew]

14 JUDGE KWON: While we are waiting for the next witness, may I

15 raise an administrative matter with the Prosecution. My question is

16 whether the Prosecution would be able to produce a detailed index of the

17 Prosecution's exhibit produced to the Court so far, including the -- all

18 the tabs of each binder so that we can make an electronic search. So if

19 you could pass on my words to Mr. Nice and --

20 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes, Your Honour. That shouldn't be a

21 problem.

22 JUDGE KWON: And update them from time to time. Thank you.

23 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes, Your Honour.

24 And may I now also mention that we have as the next witness the

25 Witness C-017. He had been granted protective measures of pseudonym and

Page 22008

1 image distortion.

2 MR. KAY: If I can just raise a matter, Your Honours? I've just

3 been looking at the exhibits for C-017. I notice at tab 9 that there's an

4 entire statement from this witness included within the exhibit bundle.

5 JUDGE MAY: Well, we'll have to -- we'll have to see about the

6 admissibility of that.

7 MR. KAY: Yes.

8 JUDGE MAY: As to why it should be. It's not normally the

9 practise, of course, Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff, to exhibit the witness's

10 statement unless there's some particular reason for it.

11 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes, Your Honour. And it's only a proposal.

12 The -- the problem that arose was during the preparation of the testimony,

13 the witness read his past statement and found a lot of inaccuracies. And

14 he mentioned which it was and what should be the right wording. And

15 that's actually the -- this declaration that he made with our help, of

16 course; we typed it up. And we can see whether it's necessary to exhibit

17 it.

18 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Well, we'll see whether that's necessary or not.

19 We've got it at the moment.

20 [The witness entered court]

21 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Let the witness take the declaration.

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

23 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

24 WITNESS: WITNESS C-017

25 [Witness answered through interpreter]

Page 22009

1 JUDGE MAY: If you'd like to take a seat now.

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

3 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff.

4 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Thank you, Your Honour.

5 Your Honour, could we have the first about 10 to 15 minutes in

6 private session. And as soon as we are in private session, I would

7 explain why.

8 JUDGE MAY: Yes.

9 [Private session]

10 [redacted]

11 [redacted]

12 [redacted]

13 [redacted]

14 [redacted]

15 [redacted]

16 [redacted]

17 [redacted]

18 [redacted]

19 [redacted]

20 [redacted]

21 [redacted]

22 [redacted]

23 [redacted]

24 [redacted]

25 [redacted]

Page 22010

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13 Page 22010- redacted private session

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

Page 22015

1 [redacted]

2 [redacted]

3 [redacted]

4 [redacted]

5 [redacted]

6 [redacted]

7 [redacted]

8 [redacted]

9 [redacted]

10 [redacted]

11 [redacted]

12 [redacted]

13 [redacted]

14 [redacted]

15 [redacted]

16 [redacted]

17 [redacted]

18 [redacted]

19 [redacted]

20 [redacted]

21 [redacted]

22 [redacted]

23 [redacted]

24 [redacted]

25 [Open session]

Page 22016

1 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: It's actually from the atlas, but we have

2 highlighted together with the help of the witness certain areas that the

3 witness will refer to during his testimony. And we do not need to explain

4 any details right now. It's just that the witness should have it in front

5 of him if he wants to show something.

6 Q. The only thing you should tell us: Buna, what was it and where

7 was it situated?

8 A. It's 12 kilometres from Mostar, and it's marked here with a "D."

9 Q. Yes. Before the war, what kind of a place was it?

10 A. Buna is a tourist place, generally speaking. And the camp was a

11 tourist camp, in fact, or a camp for foreign citizens, foreigners.

12 Q. And during the war, what was it, during the time you were there?

13 A. My first encounter with the camp during the war was when it was a

14 base for those people who came in.

15 Q. Which -- a base for which troops? Who was there?

16 A. What I saw when I arrived was a group of criminals wearing

17 uniforms. And there were all kinds, in fact. There were Seselj's men,

18 Seselj Chetniks, the White Eagles, the Red Berets, and so on.

19 Q. Did you, with some technical help from the Prosecutor's Office,

20 prepare a sketch of the layout of the camp Buna?

21 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: And can we now have tab 1 on Sanction.

22 Your Honours, we'll --

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

24 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes. Your Honours, we'll go now through the

25 tabs and would need a -- an exhibit number.

Page 22017

1 JUDGE MAY: An exhibit number, yes.

2 THE REGISTRAR: Prosecution Exhibit 460.

3 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:

4 Q. Tab 1, is that the layout of the camp?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Where would the -- these uniformed people that you mentioned,

7 where would they sleep? Where would they be housed?

8 A. They slept in the camp.

9 Q. But where there? I mean, you have indicated buildings. Would

10 they sleep in the bungalows?

11 A. Yes, because the camp consisted of bungalows and an area for

12 tents. And when I arrived, they were actually in the bungalows, but some

13 of them were also in the hotel at the Buna.

14 Q. And was there a kind of an administration in the camp, where the

15 commanders would sit? Where would they be?

16 A. Yes, there was. Mirko Simic was also in the camp, and at that

17 time he was one of the main people or number-one man for Herzegovina for

18 the SDS.

19 Q. Where would Mr. Simic be in the camp? Did he have an office

20 there?

21 A. Yes, he did. He occupied one of the bungalows, but I really can't

22 remember which.

23 Q. And Mr. Simic, how did you get to know him? Did you have dealings

24 with him when you were in the camp? Did you see him?

25 A. I did see him around, but I had absolutely no idea who he was

Page 22018

1 until I was told.

2 Q. And you said that he was -- he was a leading -- a leading figure

3 in the SDS. How would you know that?

4 A. Well, when I arrived - I have to say this again - I didn't know

5 who he was at all. But during one of the operations after Mostar, which

6 they referred to as cleansing, I learnt that as that man had issued orders

7 for -- to the local chief of the SDS.

8 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, we need to go briefly into

9 private session to discuss a point.

10 [Private session]

11 [redacted]

12 [redacted]

13 [redacted]

14 [redacted]

15 [redacted]

16 [redacted]

17 [redacted]

18 [redacted]

19 [redacted]

20 [redacted]

21 [redacted]

22 [redacted]

23 [redacted]

24 [redacted]

25 [redacted]

Page 22019

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13 Page 22019 redacted private session

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

Page 22020

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

Page 22021

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13 Page 22021 redacted private session

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

Page 22022

1 [redacted]

2 [redacted]

3 [redacted]

4 [redacted]

5 [Open session]

6 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session.

7 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:

8 Q. While you were in this position, did you observe the killing of

9 the Croat, Pavo Gagro?

10 A. Yes, I did.

11 Q. Can you explain to us what you saw.

12 [redacted]

13 [redacted]

14 [redacted]

15 [redacted]

16 [redacted]

17 [redacted]

18 [redacted]

19 [redacted]

20 [redacted]

21 Q. And when you say three or four of them, whom do you mean?

22 A. I mean the men wearing those uniforms; that is to say, Seselj's

23 Chetniks.

24 Q. And what else happened to Gagro? You say they were kicking him.

25 A. They kept kicking Gagro from his house to the hotel, which is a

Page 22023

1 little less than 1 kilometre away, and he died as a result. He died

2 during the kicking.

3 Q. You mentioned the Seselj Chetniks. Was there any sort of a

4 commander among them?

5 A. Yes, there was. However, at that point in time, I had no idea who

6 they were or who their commander was. I learnt all that later on.

7 Q. And who was their commander? What did you learn later on?

8 A. When this was happening, I saw a man leave Pavo Gagro's house with

9 a bag, and later on I learnt that his name was Svabo. I saw him then and

10 never again. And later on I learnt that he was the man who was in command

11 there.

12 Q. You said they were Seselj's Chetniks. How did you know that?

13 What did they look like and how could you identify them later on, later on

14 as Seselj's Chetniks?

15 A. Well, as I said, when I arrived I had no idea who they were.

16 However, later on during the time I spent in the camp, I saw their IDs and

17 I learnt from the stories they told that they were in fact Seselj's

18 volunteers or Chetniks, whatever you like to call them.

19 Q. I would like to show now on the -- on the screen a few patches.

20 And they're actually from Exhibit 349, the binder with all the patches.

21 And I have here the first patch that I would like to show you. It's tab

22 12.

23 You see here a patch with a wolf. What -- what kind of a patch --

24 is that patch familiar to you, and who was having such a patch?

25 A. I saw this patch for the first time when I arrived at the camp at

Page 22024

1 Buna. And this is the insignia worn by the members of the Red Berets,

2 with a brown wolf on it.

3 Q. And now tab 11. Did you see people with such a patch?

4 A. Once again, I first saw it at the Buna camp. And once again, this

5 was worn by members of the Red Berets.

6 Q. And as some of us here in the courtroom cannot read Cyrillic, can

7 you say what it mean, these words?

8 A. It says here "Milicija Krajina."

9 THE INTERPRETER: Or "police Krajina.". Interpreter's note.

10 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:

11 Q. Yes. And then the next patch. It's tab 13. Is that familiar

12 with you, and what does it say on the patch and who wore it?

13 A. This is another patch that I saw at the camp. It was worn by the

14 Chetniks, Seselj's Chetniks, and the White Eagles. And I'd see this patch

15 many times subsequently. You could quite simply buy it in the streets.

16 And it says "Headquarters or main staff Serb Chetnik Movement."

17 Q. Thank you. And just you mention it was worn by Seselj's Chetniks

18 and the White Eagles. What is the difference between the two? Could you

19 distinguish them?

20 A. I wasn't able to distinguish between them when I arrived. The

21 only thing I could see was the difference between them and the Red Berets.

22 It was only later on that I learnt and became aware of the fact that they

23 were in fact two groups, that one of them were Seselj's Chetniks and the

24 others were the White Eagles.

25 Q. The White Eagles belonged to which organisation, which party or

Page 22025

1 founder?

2 A. All I can say on that score is that I heard they belonged to

3 Jovic.

4 Q. While you were still in that same position, having observed the

5 killing of Gagro, did you see a military officer?

6 A. Could you repeat that question, be more specific? An officer of

7 what?

8 Q. Of the JNA.

9 A. Oh, that. Yes, I did.

10 Q. Yes. What did you see? What happened?

11 A. What I myself saw -- I didn't know who he was, actually, or what

12 he was -- but a man turned up wearing a camouflage uniform of the Yugoslav

13 People's Army, and he automatically began screaming right at the entrance

14 to the camp.

15 Q. What was he screaming?

16 A. He screamed out, "Who sent you here?"

17 Q. What was -- what answer did he get?

18 A. The first answer he received - and I could hear that because Kusic

19 was right close by - Kusic said, "You know very well who sent us."

20 Q. And did any other Red Berets join those two at some point in time?

21 THE INTERPRETER: "Who sent them?" Interpreter's note.

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. Across the road from the camp,

23 in front of the school building, a man stood there whose name I

24 learnt -- later learnt was Boro Todorovic. Now, whether from the front

25 side or the back side, another man turned up, whom I didn't know

Page 22026

1 International Committee of the Red Cross but his name was Aco Legija, and

2 he began talking to Perisic.

3 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:

4 Q. Those two that you just mentioned, were they Red Berets or were

5 they JNA? Who were they?

6 A. They were members of the Red Berets.

7 Q. What did they speak about with the officer?

8 A. Well, first of all, Aco Legija swore at him and then said that he

9 knew who sent them there very well. And as there were three men standing

10 there with him, Njegos Kusic started having an argument with him.

11 Q. What kind of an argument?

12 A. Well, as to who had sent them. Njegos Kusic for the first time

13 said he would call Frenki up and then he would see who had sent them

14 there.

15 Q. This reference to Frenki, did it mean anything to you? Did you

16 know what he was -- to whom he was referring?

17 A. No, never heard of it.

18 Q. And this person, this JNA officer, did he have a high rank? Could

19 you see it? And did you later on learn who he was?

20 A. Yes. Later on I learnt who that was. But I saw him for the first

21 time on that occasion. He did have a rank of some kind, but I don't

22 remember what exactly at the time. But he was Momcilo Perisic.

23 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Can we just briefly display the photo, tab 3.

24 Q. And is that the person you mentioned and you later met?

25 A. Yes, that's right.

Page 22027

1 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, it's a photo of --

2 JUDGE MAY: This is a convenient time. We'll adjourn now.

3 Witness C-017, in this break and any other breaks there may be in

4 your evidence, could you remember not to speak to anybody about it until

5 it's over and not to let anybody speak to you about it, and that does

6 include the Prosecution too.

7 Very well. It's something for the senior legal officer, please.

8 Twenty minutes.

9 --- Recess taken at 12.17 p.m.

10 --- On resuming at 12.43 p.m.

11 JUDGE MAY: Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff, if this court isn't required this

12 afternoon, we'll sit until 2.00 in order to make up some time.

13 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes. Thank you, Your Honour.

14 Q. Witness, you have described this dispute between Momcilo Perisic

15 and the three Red Berets. How did the dispute end?

16 A. What I described is what happened right before me. After that,

17 they left either to one of the bungalows or wherever. But at any rate, I

18 couldn't see them any more.

19 Q. You have mentioned the -- the Chetniks, their patches. What kind

20 of uniforms did they have?

21 A. As I've already pointed out, this was a group of criminals that

22 were gathered from here and there and everywhere. They did not have any

23 kind of uniforms that would show that they belonged to a particular unit

24 or formation. There were JNA uniforms there. There were NATO-made

25 uniforms or whatever you wish to call them. There were even some people

Page 22028

1 who wore civilian jackets or civilian trousers. At any rate, it was a mix

2 of all sorts of things.

3 Q. The days that followed your arrival, what did you see them do?

4 A. All the entire settlement had been looted, the entire settlement

5 at the Buna. As far as I managed to see from this camp - and I did see

6 the houses later - the houses that had been looted. Also there were

7 stolen cars there. I mean, quite simply they stopped people in the road

8 and took their cars.

9 Q. And you have described the -- the patches that you saw on the Red

10 Berets. What kind of uniforms did they wear?

11 A. The Red Berets had American-made uniforms, all of them.

12 Q. What was the relation between the Red Berets and the Chetniks?

13 Was there anyone in superior -- was any group superior to the other?

14 A. Well, in this entire mess - and I already explained that when I

15 arrived there, I realised it was an unorganised group - but after a while,

16 one could see that the Red Berets dominated over the Chetniks and that the

17 man who was truly in charge was Aco Legija.

18 Q. Aco Legija is -- has he anything to do with the deputy commander

19 of the Arkan's with that same name, or is it a different Aco Legija?

20 A. No. It's a completely different person.

21 Q. Did you prepare a chart, a chart -- a name chart with the people

22 that you met in the course of two Red Beret camps? Did you prepare a

23 chart with the help of the Prosecutor indicating the name and the

24 description of the person and what you learnt about this person?

25 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: And Your Honours, it's tab 2 of the Exhibit

Page 22029

1 460.

2 Q. Did you -- did you give all these names of the people that you met

3 and their details?

4 A. Yes.

5 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honours, I do not intend to go through

6 each and every person on this list, but those who really are important we

7 will address specifically.

8 Q. Those -- I forgot to ask you: How many of these Chetniks were in

9 the Buna camp and how many of the Red Berets, to your recollection?

10 A. I really cannot say how many there were exactly, because there was

11 major disarray there. However, at any rate, there were more Chetniks than

12 Red Berets.

13 Q. Those Red Berets that you saw, were they all from this original

14 Red Berets, as you mentioned, that were trained in Knin, or were they also

15 from different regions?

16 A. No. Absolutely all of those who were there and who I saw were

17 members of the first 57, according to what they said themselves.

18 Q. Did they tell -- did they speak about where they had been before,

19 in which regions?

20 A. Yes, they did. They did so often.

21 Q. What did they say? Where had they been before coming to Mostar?

22 A. I cannot remember everything, but most of the stories I heard were

23 from Pero Divljak, like I mentioned in my statement. They told me that

24 they had been in Borovo Selo, I can remember that, for instance. Then

25 Knin, then Baranja, then Okucani, and also Plitvice. Those are some of

Page 22030

1 the places I can remember from what they told me.

2 Q. And those Seselj's Chetniks, where -- what did they say they had

3 been?

4 A. I did not have many contacts with Seselj Chetniks. This is a

5 group that was unavoidable, because they were all over the place, but it

6 was not a good thing to be near them. However, I managed to find out

7 later on, primarily from the Red Berets, that all of them, all of Seselj's

8 Chetniks, had 27 days of training under the Red Berets at the camp in

9 Golubic and that they had also been in Borovo Selo.

10 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, I would like to go into private

11 session just for a very brief question.

12 [Private session]

13 [redacted]

14 [redacted]

15 [redacted]

16 [redacted]

17 [redacted]

18 [redacted]

19 [redacted]

20 [redacted]

21 [redacted]

22 [redacted]

23 [redacted]

24 [redacted]

25 [redacted]

Page 22031

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13 Page 22031 redacted private session

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

Page 22032

1 [redacted]

2 [redacted]

3 [redacted]

4 [redacted]

5 [redacted]

6 [redacted]

7 [redacted]

8 [redacted]

9 [redacted]

10 [redacted]

11 [redacted]

12 [redacted]

13 [redacted]

14 [redacted]

15 [redacted]

16 [redacted]

17 [redacted]

18 [redacted]

19 [Open session]

20 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session.

21 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:

22 Q. You said -- you mentioned already the attack on Mostar. When did

23 it take place? Do you recall?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Yes. When?

Page 22033

1 A. Yes, I do recall the attack on Mostar. It was on the 6th of May.

2 And the 6th of May is Djurdjevdan, a holiday, St. George's Day.

3 Q. And we are talking about 1992.

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Those that were in the Buna camp, the Chetniks and the Red Berets,

6 did they take part in this attack on Mostar?

7 A. Yes, they did.

8 Q. Where were you taken from Buna, to where in Mostar?

9 A. From Buna, we went to the barracks called Juzni Logor, southern

10 camp. From where the attack was launched.

11 Q. Are these JNA barracks?

12 A. Yes. As I already said, at that time the JNA was still in

13 existence, and this is JNA barracks.

14 Q. Were JNA troops involved in the attack?

15 A. Yes, they were.

16 Q. Which units, to your knowledge? Which units were involved?

17 A. What I can say with certainty, as far as the JNA units are

18 concerned, was that the right flank was held by the members of the 63rd

19 Airborne Brigade, and on the side where I was there were all sorts of

20 things, because there were quite a few JNA reservists there.

21 Q. And looking at the map that we had in the beginning, when you say

22 "right flank," what -- what river bank do you mean? "Right flank," what

23 does that mean?

24 A. I'm referring to the river.

25 Q. Yes. So the right bank in the direction -- from the direction of

Page 22034

1 Sarajevo or in the direction of Sarajevo? Which is the right bank?

2 A. For me, there are no banks. But this is the way Karadzic viewed

3 things from Sarajevo, so from his vantage point it was the left bank,

4 looking from Sarajevo.

5 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Just put it on the ELMO briefly and show it

6 to us, yes, so that we are not confused about where the -- where the 63rd

7 Airborne Brigade was and where you and the people from Buna were. You

8 have to show it on the ELMO, please.

9 Q. Yes. Could you please -- could you please show it again.

10 A. The side where I was, this is the side where I was. Viewed from

11 Sarajevo, it's the left bank. And viewed from here, it's the right bank.

12 Members of the 63rd Airborne Brigade were on this side. And I, together

13 with the others, was on this other side here.

14 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: The witness was pointing on the right

15 side -- where the "D" is actually. It's easiest to see. He was on the

16 side where Buna is and the Red Berets on the other side.

17 Yes. Thank you. That's -- Airborne, yes, the 63rd Airborne

18 Brigade.

19 Q. Were any local TO forces involved in this military activity?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And any police units?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. With whom did the local TO and the police cooperate? On which

24 side were they?

25 A. The local police and Territorial Defence were on the side where I

Page 22035

1 was, so that is to say the left.

2 Q. Who was in charge -- in overall charge of the attack?

3 A. As far as I know, the operations in the area, in the field

4 actually, were led by Rade Mihajlovic. Above him were Cvetkovic and

5 Malijevic.

6 Q. And who was in overall command of all troops? Do you know that?

7 A. Momcilo Perisic.

8 Q. Who gave assignments to your unit? Your direct superior was who?

9 A. Aco Legija.

10 Q. While the attack was ongoing - and I do not want to go in any

11 details of the attack as such - did you observe what was done with

12 civilians the troops came across?

13 A. Yes, I did.

14 Q. What did you see?

15 A. Well, I saw when they were taking them out of the basements. I

16 saw them kill a man who was almost 80 years old. That's it.

17 Q. Did you see any -- any looting or burning of properties?

18 A. Yes, I did. Everything was looted and torched, everything.

19 Q. Did you see anything involving a doctor and his family?

20 A. Yes, I did.

21 Q. What happened to the doctor and his family?

22 A. I don't know what happened later, but what I saw was the doctor

23 was shot in the leg.

24 Q. Who did that and why?

25 A. Kizo did the shooting. He was allegedly looking for a sniper.

Page 22036

1 Q. Kizo is who? To which group does he belong?

2 A. Kizo belonged to Seselj's Chetniks.

3 Q. The doctor, did he actually have a gun? And was he involved, to

4 your knowledge, in any fighting?

5 A. No.

6 Q. Where did that take place? Was it outside or was it in the home

7 of the doctor?

8 A. It was in the doctor's home, his apartment, that is.

9 Q. Did you observe the killing of a Croatian citizen called

10 Cvitanovic?

11 A. Yes, I did.

12 Q. Yes. What happened to this person?

13 A. This man was captured in civilian clothes. He was captured by the

14 Serbian forces. First they beat him. Then they put him into a ditch and

15 threw a hand grenade in.

16 Q. Did a TV crew come to this scene?

17 A. Yes, shortly after that.

18 Q. And what happened?

19 A. Then the locals showed the TV crew the corpse, and they said that

20 they wanted to show them what the Croat forces were doing to Serb

21 civilians.

22 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, we need to go into private

23 session briefly for the next event.

24 [Private session]

25 [redacted]

Page 22037

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13 Page 22037 redacted private session

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

Page 22038

1 [redacted]

2 [redacted]

3 [redacted]

4 [Open session]

5 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:

6 Q. When you arrived in Rotimlja, did you see anything involving

7 civilians?

8 A. Yes, I did.

9 Q. What did you see?

10 A. Well, when we arrived up there, people in civilian clothing were

11 lined up in two lines. They were apart from each other. In one line were

12 Croats, and in the other line were Muslims. After that, Pejanovic, this

13 captain, made a speech to them. He said that they were on Serb land and

14 since Croats had been killing Serbs for years and for centuries, they had

15 no business on Serb land, while the Muslims could remain if they were to

16 be loyal to the Serb authorities.

17 Q. And did the Croats leave? Do you know? To your knowledge.

18 A. As far as I know, the Croats were transferred to the prison in

19 Bileca.

20 Q. And the Muslims?

21 A. The Muslims stayed behind.

22 Q. Did the -- the Chetniks and the Red Berets from the Buna camp also

23 take part in an attack on the village Bijelo Polje?

24 A. Yes, they did.

25 Q. And were you joined -- while doing that, were you joined by other

Page 22039

1 troops? If so, which?

2 A. Yes. On the road leading to Bijelo Polje -- rather, the road on

3 which we were supposed to go, we met up with a unit called Vukovarci, the

4 men from Vukovar.

5 Q. What kind of unit was that? A regular army unit or what?

6 A. No, this was not a regular army unit. These were men who had been

7 at the frontline in Vukovar.

8 Q. If not a regular army unit, what -- what were they -- to which

9 groups were they related to? Were they Chetniks, or were they police?

10 Can -- if you don't know, that's fine. But maybe you know.

11 A. What I can say with certainty is that this is a paramilitary

12 formation. It was brought to Herzegovina by Novica Gusic.

13 Q. Were any TO or JNA units involved in this attack on the village

14 Bijelo Polje?

15 A. Yes. Again, the same person, Rade Mihajlovic, and the same

16 territorials too, or almost the same, from the surrounding Serb villages.

17 Q. Did you have air support during the attack, air support of the

18 JNA?

19 A. Yes. Yes.

20 Q. What happened to the village and the villagers during the attack?

21 A. I don't know what happened to them, because when we entered the

22 village, the village was totally empty.

23 Q. And what about the -- did the looting take place and burning?

24 A. Yes, it did. These are things that such people invariably do.

25 Q. Did you see the murder of an old man?

Page 22040

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

Page 22041

1 A. Yes, that's right.

2 Q. Who did it and how was he murdered?

3 A. Well, he was murdered by Pero Divljak. First he cut off his ears,

4 then threw him into a pool, and then he threw bricks at him until he

5 drowned.

6 Q. Did the JNA withdraw from Mostar in June 1992?

7 A. Yes, it did.

8 Q. Did Momcilo Perisic give a speech in relation to this withdrawal?

9 And if so, what did he say?

10 A. Yes, he did. Momcilo Perisic made a speech at the airfield in

11 front of everybody who happened to be there, in front of everybody who was

12 there. He said that Mostar was sold for Doboj and Derventa, that his

13 hands were tied, that this was a political game, that he couldn't do a

14 thing, and that the only thing he could do was that he could leave weapons

15 to those who would stay behind; whereas, those who would come along with

16 him could become soldiers on a contractual basis.

17 Q. And did you understand what that meant?

18 A. Not quite, but I gathered that what he said, that is, that he

19 would make it possible for them to become professional soldiers, that this

20 applied to people who were born in Bosnia. So either they could go with

21 him or they could stay where they were.

22 Q. Did the Red Berets take weaponry and vehicles from the army, from

23 the JNA, during this withdrawal?

24 A. Yes, they did; the Red Berets and all the others.

25 Q. At the time of the withdrawal, did you see a massacre at the

Page 22042

1 Neretva River?

2 A. Yes.

3 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honours, we will need to go into private

4 session just for one question. And in this context, we also have to put

5 tab 4 on the ELMO.

6 [Private session]

7 [redacted]

8 [redacted]

9 [redacted]

10 [redacted]

11 [redacted]

12 [redacted]

13 [redacted]

14 [redacted]

15 [redacted]

16 [redacted]

17 [redacted]

18 [redacted]

19 [redacted]

20 [redacted]

21 [redacted]

22 [redacted]

23 [redacted]

24 [redacted]

25 [redacted]

Page 22043

1 [redacted]

2 [redacted]

3 [redacted]

4 [redacted]

5 [Open session]

6 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session.

7 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:

8 Q. Witness, this big facility that we see where we have that circle,

9 is that the north camp, a JNA facility?

10 A. Yes, it is.

11 Q. When the -- what was the JNA doing at that time? Where were the

12 JNA units?

13 A. As I have already said, there was all-out panic because the JNA

14 was withdrawing.

15 Q. Where did the massacre occur?

16 A. As far as I am able to say, it was on the Neretva River bank.

17 Q. Is that where there is a circle indicated and underneath is

18 "Bakijina Luka"?

19 A. Yes, it is.

20 Q. And there is -- what did you -- what did you see happen? When did

21 you first notice it and what did you see?

22 JUDGE KWON: Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff, if you could turn off your

23 microphone.

24 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: But there's no voice distortion.

25 JUDGE KWON: Oh, that was a mistake, I think.

Page 22044

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] From there, as I was told to go and

2 see what was happening on the other side of the river. So right next to

3 the river there were bunkers. And as I didn't want to be shot at from the

4 other side, I climbed onto the building and from that building the first

5 thing I saw was people in a column escorted by men in camouflage uniforms

6 were crossing the road in the direction of the Neretva River.

7 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:

8 Q. And what did you see then happen?

9 [redacted]

10 [redacted] When I saw

11 that they were in a column escorted by men in camouflage uniform, it bode

12 nothing good. I followed them with my binoculars as far as the river

13 bank, and as I looked at the bank there was another group of men there in

14 camouflage uniforms who were already killing civilians.

15 Q. Did you recognise anyone doing this killing?

16 A. Yes, I did. I recognised Pero Divljak and somebody called

17 Vranjanac.

18 Q. Vranjanac, to which group did he belong?

19 A. Vranjanac belonged to Seselj's Chetniks.

20 Q. How could you recognise Divljak and him? Do they look particular?

21 A. First because Pero Divljak was with me for no longer than 20 or 30

22 minutes before that. We were together. And he's the only one who is over

23 2 metres tall, and Vranjanac is also quite tall, but I recognised him by

24 the way in which he held his rifle.

25 Q. And you mentioned that those -- those people that were killed came

Page 22045

1 from a particular neighbourhood. Which neighbourhood is that and what

2 kind of people from their ethnicity were they?

3 A. The people were mostly Muslims, and they were from the

4 neighbourhood of Zalik. I don't know where they rounded them up, whether

5 it was from shelters or their apartments. I don't know that. But anyway,

6 they were from the neighbourhood called Zalik.

7 [redacted]

8 [redacted]

9 [redacted]

10 [redacted]

11 [redacted]

12 [redacted]

13 [redacted]

14 [redacted]

15 [redacted]

16 [redacted]

17 [redacted]

18 [redacted]

19 [redacted]

20 [redacted]

21 [redacted]

22 [redacted]

23 [redacted]

24 [redacted]

25 [redacted]

Page 22046

1 [redacted]

2 [redacted]

3 [redacted]

4 [redacted]

5 Q. Did you see Divljak and Vranjanac later on? And if so, what did

6 they look like?

7 A. I can't remember about Vranjanac. I do remember Pero Divljak. It

8 is one of the images I'm trying to forget, because Pero Divljak wore a

9 uniform that was totally soaked in blood.

10 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: I would now like to go into private session,

11 Your Honour.

12 THE WITNESS: [No interpretation]

13 [Private session]

14 [redacted]

15 [redacted]

16 [redacted]

17 [redacted]

18 [redacted]

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 22047

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12 Page 22047 redacted private session.

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

Page 22048

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 [Open session]

8 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session.

9 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:

10 Q. The Nevesinje Brigade, as you said, is that a -- a brigade of the

11 JNA, or is it the VRS? Do you know?

12 A. At that point in time, when this was happening, I had no idea.

13 However, that brigade later existed as the Herzegovina Brigade of the Army

14 of Republika Srpska.

15 Q. In Nevesinje, did you see again the Red Berets and the Chetniks

16 from the Buna camp? And if so, where were they staying?

17 A. Yes, I did meet them, at the hotel in Nevesinje.

18 Q. Did you see any JNA troops? And if so, where were they staying?

19 A. Yes, there were some JNA troops, but they were in the process of

20 withdrawing.

21 Q. And which corps? Would you know?

22 A. As far as I can remember, judging by what people said, it was the

23 Uzice Corps.

24 Q. Did the Red Berets and the Chetniks, did they cooperate with the

25 police or the TO in the -- in Nevesinje?

Page 22049

1 A. Yes, they did.

2 Q. In which way did they cooperate? Where were they? Were they ...?

3 A. They did cooperate. As far as I can remember, there were several

4 meetings that I saw headed by Novica Gusic, Aco Legija, Vranjanac,

5 Miroslav Duka, Krsto Savic, all of them were there. I saw meetings, what

6 they spoke about, I don't know.

7 Q. And did you see this person Duka whom you mentioned was the

8 commander of the Herzegovina police?

9 A. Yes, I did.

10 Q. And you mentioned a Krsto Savic. Who was he? What was his

11 position?

12 A. Yes, I mentioned Krsto Savic. He was commander of the police

13 station in Nevesinje.

14 Q. You mentioned before in your testimony the group Vukovarci. Were

15 they also in Nevesinje?

16 A. Yes, they were.

17 Q. Did these -- did all these troops, did they conduct any operations

18 in Nevesinje?

19 A. I spent a very short time in Nevesinje, but while I was there

20 Nevesinje was totally cleansed of Muslims. The group that did this and

21 boasted of this was a group of Vukovarci, commanded by Crni.

22 Q. Did you see any -- any signs of this cleansing of Muslims? What

23 did they do? What did you see?

24 A. The only thing I saw were people in a bus, that is, women and

25 children. And I learnt later from what others said that they were sent to

Page 22050

1 Trebinje and then from there to Macedonia. But that is only what I heard

2 from others. I just saw the busses, nothing more than that.

3 Q. Did you see any looting or burning of houses?

4 A. On one occasion, yes.

5 Q. What did you see?

6 A. I saw Krsto Savic and the others who were with him when they

7 killed Redzo Trebovic.

8 Q. Is that -- was that a Muslim?

9 A. Yes, he was.

10 Q. Did you see how they killed him and what happened to his property?

11 A. [redacted]

12 [redacted], the house had already been set on fire, the house that he

13 was in, as was the house across the road, a new house owned by

14 Redzo Trebovic, which they had already started looting. All I know is

15 that they said that Redzo was inside -- rather, Krsto bragged that Redzo

16 was inside.

17 Q. And Redzo, did he have a position? Who was he? You said he was a

18 Muslim, but did he have a position?

19 A. What I learnt -- I had never been in Nevesinje before that in my

20 life, but what I learnt from stories was that Redzo Trebevic was one of

21 the wealthiest Muslims in Nevesinje and he held a position in the SDA,

22 according to what they said.

23 Q. Did the Red Berets set up a training camp in the village Borci and

24 start training there in July 1992?

25 A. Yes, they did.

Page 22051

1 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honours, on this map, there is a "C"

2 indicated where Borci is located.

3 Q. What was the name of this camp and what was it before and then

4 during the war?

5 A. What the name of the camp was, I really don't know. But it is on

6 the Boracko Lake. It was a tourist facility which was mainly used for

7 tourist purposes.

8 Q. And you have made a sketch with the help of technical staff of the

9 Prosecutor's Office of this camp; is that correct?

10 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: And it's tab 6, Your Honour.

11 Q. Is that the sketch that you made?

12 A. Yes, it is.

13 Q. And who used this camp? Who was -- who was housed there?

14 A. As I said, I spent a very short time in Nevesinje. And once we

15 arrived at Borci, the camp had already been established and the Red Berets

16 were inside.

17 Q. Were those Chetniks that had been in Buna, were they also there,

18 or just the Red Berets?

19 A. There were only members of the Red Berets there.

20 Q. What was the camp used for by them? What was done in the camp?

21 A. The camp was used as a basis for the Red Berets, and they

22 conducted training there.

23 Q. Who was trained there?

24 A. As I said, I myself and another young man was collected up in

25 Nevesinje with Pero Divljak and Aco, and we came to the Boracka Jezero

Page 22052

1 camp, and they were all there. But they weren't actually men. They were

2 very young, children almost, and they were all rounded up from the village

3 of Borci, which is across from the lake, the Boracko Lake.

4 Q. Does that mean they trained new recruits?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. How many Red Berets were there to train these young people?

7 A. I have told you of all those that I could think of, 10 or 12 of

8 them. I can't be quite specific. Generally speaking, it was the group

9 that arrived at the Buna.

10 Q. So those you mean you listed in tab 2, all these people you listed

11 in tab 2, the chart with all the names?

12 A. Yes, that's who I'm thinking of. Not all of them, because some of

13 them had left. Actually, just one left. All the others were still there,

14 as far as I can remember.

15 Q. The training the young men received there consisted of what?

16 What -- just briefly, what kind of training did you get?

17 A. Well, it was the same sort of training that those men had

18 attended, or as far as I could see, that they went through in Knin with

19 Captain Dragan, the same drills. And this was done under their

20 supervision and it was their military training, in fact.

21 Q. And how do you know that it was the same training? Were any --

22 any training materials used from Knin?

23 A. Well, I don't know what kind of material was used, but I saw the

24 tapes that they showed us, which were taken in Knin, the footage of that.

25 Q. Did you see a person, Major Fico, on these tapes? And if so, what

Page 22053

1 did you see him do?

2 A. Yes, I did see that individual, and they said his name was Major

3 Fico. And he was conducting a training exercise using a knife.

4 Q. Did Frenki visit -- Frenki Simatovic visit the camp?

5 A. Yes, he did.

6 Q. Can you describe what happened, how he arrived and what happened.

7 A. First they had said that the camp had to be cleaned up and put in

8 order, and then they placed some benches in the headquarters. Frenki

9 arrived by helicopter. We were all lined up. Aco Legija reported to him

10 about the situation in the camp. I can't remember everything he said, but

11 he said how many men there were in the camp and the level of readiness in

12 the camp and military, things of that kind. Then Frenki delivered a

13 patriotic speech about the Serbian knights and the successes scored by the

14 Red Berets. I can't remember the exact wording of the speech. But there

15 was this patriotic schund being delivered. And once that was over, the

16 speech of his, we went into a room that they used as headquarters where we

17 were given according to CZ-99 the pistols that had arrived with Frenki,

18 and we were told that we would have to write the CVs of all of us in order

19 to become members of the Red Berets, to write a curriculum vitae for

20 membership.

21 Q. Was that the first time that you saw Frenki Simatovic?

22 A. Yes, that was my -- the first and last time I ever saw him.

23 Q. Did he introduce himself or was he introduced by his name?

24 A. No. After Aco Legija reported to him, he gave us his full name

25 and surname and then proceeded to deliver his speech.

Page 22054

1 Q. And you have mentioned a pistol that arrived with

2 Frenki Simatovic. Did you get that pistol?

3 A. Yes, I did.

4 Q. Was that a present, or what was the occasion?

5 A. What it was exactly, I don't know. You'll have to ask Frenki

6 that. But all the new arrivals were given a pistol, because all the old

7 ones, the Red Berets, already had these CZ-99-type pistols.

8 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Private session, please, Your Honour.

9 [Private session]

10 [redacted]

11 [redacted]

12 [redacted]

13 [redacted]

14 [redacted]

15 [redacted]

16 [redacted]

17 [redacted]

18 [redacted]

19 [redacted]

20 [redacted]

21 [redacted]

22 [redacted]

23 [redacted]

24 [redacted]

25 [redacted]

Page 22055

1 [redacted]

2 [redacted]

3 [redacted]

4 [redacted]

5 [redacted]

6 [redacted]

7 [redacted]

8 [Open session]

9 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session.

10 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:

11 Q. In the vicinity of the Red Beret camp, was there also an army

12 facility?

13 A. Yes. Across from the river was the village of Borci, and the

14 members of the Serb forces were put up there. They had their facilities.

15 This was when the Serb forces were transformed into the Army of Republika

16 Srpska.

17 Q. And did these Serb forces cooperate with the Red Berets and the

18 camp?

19 A. Yes, they did.

20 Q. While you were in the camp, did you observe any atrocities or any

21 indications of atrocities?

22 A. On one occasion, yes.

23 Q. What did you see? What happened?

24 A. It was night-time, and I was coming back from the village of

25 Borci, and at the entrance to the camp, once I had entered the camp - and

Page 22056

1 you can see that on the diagram here - as you enter the camp, on the

2 left-hand side there is the command facility and there was a man in

3 civilian clothes standing there with his hands tied behind his back. Two

4 or three minutes later or one minute later Pero Divljak picked the man up

5 and took him off in the direction of the lake. He didn't see me or the

6 guard I was with. However, Pero came back very quickly after that and his

7 knife was all bloody, covered in blood, and he began screaming at me, what

8 was I doing there, why wasn't I in bed, it was high time I was in bed, and

9 he kicked me and I left.

10 Q. Did you see any women in the camp?

11 A. During the night, yes -- no, actually, during the next day,

12 because during the night a state of emergency had been proclaimed, and so

13 where I was lying -- actually, there's a light in front of each bungalow,

14 and I was able to see that the members of the Red Berets were coming and

15 going. There was a lot of coming and going amongst the Red Berets

16 throughout that time.

17 Q. And you -- when did you see the women?

18 A. It was either the following day or two days later.

19 Q. Where were the women? Where in the camp?

20 A. As I've already said in my statement, I wasn't actually in the

21 camp when they brought them in. That's why I didn't see them straight

22 away. However, the women were in the bungalow, from which the Red Berets

23 were coming and going throughout the night, going in and coming out. And

24 I saw them either the next day or two days after from a distance.

25 Q. Did you learn what ethnicity these women had and what happened to

Page 22057

1 them while in the camp?

2 A. Yes. And not only me, but all the others too. We learnt what had

3 happened the following day, because the next day the local Serbs from

4 Zaborani turned up and we learnt from them that they were Muslims from

5 Fazlagic Kula.

6 Q. And do you know whether these women were assaulted?

7 A. I can't say anything about that. I can just tell you what I saw.

8 I did see the Red Berets going into their bungalow and out of it

9 throughout the night. Now, what actually happened, I can't say. I didn't

10 see it myself.

11 Q. Let's briefly speak about a few other camps, Red Beret camps.

12 Were you aware that the Red Berets had a camp in Fruska Gora? And if so,

13 who was in charge there and what else did you learn about it?

14 A. I did learn that the Red Berets had not only a camp at Fruska Gora

15 but several camps, in fact. And most of those stories, most of that

16 information I learned from Pero Divljak. Although, I learned about it

17 from others as well. And what I heard from them was the man who could

18 collect up anybody he wished from any camps was called Zivojin Ivanovic,

19 nicknamed Zika Crnogorac, the Montenegrin.

20 Q. Did you ever meet this person, and how could he pick up each

21 person he wanted?

22 A. Ah, well, yes. I got to know this bestial person in human form.

23 He was indeed the commander of the camps. And not only from Pero Divljak,

24 but I heard about -- stories going round about the power of Zika

25 Crnogorac, the power he wielded.

Page 22058

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

Page 22059

1 Q. Did Pero Divljak tell you about a visit of Frenki in Fruska Gora

2 camp?

3 A. Yes, he did.

4 Q. What did he tell you?

5 A. Pero Divljak told me that they - I don't know where they came

6 from - or rather, they had returned from Croatia or somewhere else to

7 Lezimir at Fruska Gora, and they were in the camp for about 20 days

8 without any television sets, radios, just training. And after 20 days of

9 this, Frenki turned up and they were all lined up and told that there were

10 demonstrations going on in Belgrade and that they were a unit belonging to

11 the system and anybody who wanted to do any shooting could leave. Pay

12 Divljak tried to leave but he was saved by Ilija Vuckovic, Rambo, who took

13 him by the hand and said that this was just a joke, which turned out to be

14 true, because all those who did step down were actually taken to the

15 hangar by this same man Zika Crnogorac, where they were well beaten up.

16 Q. Were you aware that there was a Tara camp in Mitrovac in

17 Montenegro? And if so, who was in charge of this?

18 A. Yes, I was aware of that. I did hear of the Tara camp and that

19 Zika Crnogorac was in charge of that camp too. The man who told me this

20 in actual fact was one of his instructors, and his name was Duco

21 Durutovic.

22 Q. And one last question: Were you told where the Red Berets from

23 the Tara camp had actions, where did they get involved?

24 A. What I can tell you about that is this: I saw a document once

25 which indicated that the Red Berets were operational around the area of

Page 22060

1 Zeleni Jadar, or rather, the mine of Osmaci and the area of Srebrenica, in

2 fact.

3 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, it's time.

4 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Well, that's obviously convenient.

5 We'll adjourn now until tomorrow morning, 9.00.

6 Could you be back, Witness C-017, then, at 9.00 tomorrow morning.

7 Thank you.

8 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned

9 at 2.03 p.m., to be reconvened on Wednesday,

10 the 11th day of June, 2003, at 9.00 a.m.

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25