Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 25118

1 Monday, 25 August 2003

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 9.02 a.m.

5 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Nice.

6 MR. NICE: Your Honour, the first witness is a protected witness.

7 Before he comes in, a very limited number of procedural matters; in fact,

8 only a couple, I think.

9 I trust the Chamber will have received from us the paper on the

10 limits of examination-in-chief of certain witnesses. Obviously we will be

11 grateful for resolution of that at an early date, but there's no witness

12 for whom it becomes relevant before next Tuesday. Might we deal with that

13 at the same time as we deal with the Status Conference next Tuesday?

14 There's an application to add a witness in particular

15 circumstances, and obviously resolution of that will assist us because

16 arrangements have to be made for his attendance. We are planning on the

17 Sarajevo witnesses, and the Chamber will understand that our planning is,

18 of course, in part - quite a large part - dependent upon resolution of the

19 92 bis applications that have been made in respect of those witnesses.

20 There was a 92 bis application a couple of weeks ago and another one

21 served at the end of last week, and we'd be grateful for the earliest

22 possible resolution of those applications.

23 Those are the only matters I wish to raise. And may the screens

24 be lowered for the witness to come in.

25 JUDGE MAY: Well, before that, we have been handed the thesis of

Page 25119

1 the witness Dr. Budding, which was admitted before the recess. It should

2 have an exhibit number. It might as well have the next Prosecution

3 number, I should think.

4 The registrar tells me it was at the request of the Defence it was

5 admitted, so it can have a Defence number.

6 THE REGISTRAR: Defence Exhibit 168, Your Honour.

7 JUDGE MAY: Now, before the witness comes in, we understand that

8 there are some time constraints in respect of him; is that right,

9 Mr. Nice?

10 MR. NICE: There certainly are. Can I explain them? If so, in

11 private session?

12 JUDGE MAY: Yes. If we could go into private session.

13 [Private session]

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19 [Open session]

20 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honour.

21 MR. NICE: There is a file of exhibits for this witness. I don't

22 know if it's possible to give a number to them now.

23 JUDGE MAY: Yes, we'll do that.

24 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honour, Prosecution Exhibit 514.

25 MR. NICE: Thank you very much. The -- there are a couple of

Page 25121

1 video clips produced as exhibits. The Sanction system, as the Chamber

2 knows, regularly allows for the transcript to be displayed on the screen.

3 I understand there's a technical difficulty, and when we play the video

4 clips, I'll have to direct you on a couple of occasions to the printed

5 transcript as one of the tabs of Exhibit 514.

6 JUDGE MAY: Yes. We will have the witness, please.

7 [The witness entered court]

8 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Let the witness take the declaration.

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

10 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

11 JUDGE MAY: Very well. Yes.

12 WITNESS: DRAZEN ERDEMOVIC

13 [Witness answered through interpreter]

14 JUDGE MAY: There has been a translation. If you'd like to take a

15 seat.

16 Mr. Nice and also Mr. Milosevic, let me remind you that this

17 witness has voice distortion and, therefore, care must be taken over the

18 microphones.

19 Examined by Mr. Nice:

20 Q. Was your full name Drazen Erdemovic, you a Bosnian Croat born in

21 Tuzla?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Is it right that you were party to the takeover of Srebrenica in

24 July of 1995? Just yes or no, please.

25 A. Yes.

Page 25122

1 Q. Following the takeover of Srebrenica, were you and others of the

2 detachment of which you were a part involved in killing people at the

3 Branjevo military farm?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Approximately how many people were killed by you and those with

6 whom you were associated on that occasion?

7 A. According to what I could judge, about 1.000 persons.

8 Q. At the time that you engaged in those killings, so far as you

9 could judge, who was giving the orders that the killings should take

10 place?

11 A. I personally received orders from Brano Gojkovic, but a lieutenant

12 colonel brought us to that farm, as far as I was able to see his rank, and

13 he told Brano what we should do that day.

14 Q. Looking up the management chain from the lieutenant colonel, so

15 far as you could see, to whom was he answerable? To what body, unit,

16 army, or so on?

17 A. He was answerable to the army of Republika Srpska.

18 Q. In the course of either the takeover of Srebrenica or, later, the

19 killings, who was the most senior military person you ever saw in the

20 area?

21 A. The most senior military person that I saw in that area was on the

22 11th of July when General Mladic came to the town of Srebrenica after it

23 had been taken over.

24 Q. Before I go back and trace the history that led to your

25 involvement in these events, just one last general question: The accused

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Page 25124

1 has raised as a possibility that the French secret service were engaged in

2 causing these deaths in Srebrenica. Did you see anything at all to

3 suggest the involvement at the time of any foreign government, French or

4 otherwise, in what was happening?

5 A. As far as I know, they were not involved. At least, I don't know

6 about it.

7 Q. Were you charged in respect of the killings of which you have

8 already told us, by this Tribunal, and did you plead guilty, were you

9 sentenced to a term of imprisonment which you have now completed?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. The summary that the Chamber -- with the summary before the

12 Chamber, I now start at the beginning. Paragraph 2.

13 Mr. Erdemovic, did you join the JNA in 1990, leaving at the end of

14 March 1992, serving in Croatia in the military police?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Did you return to Tuzla in April 1992, being a member --

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. -- of the Tuzla Territorial Defence?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Were those -- was the Territorial Defence unit deployed to regular

21 ABiH units and did you serve in an ABiH mortar unit as a scout between

22 July and October 1992?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Paragraph 4. From October 1992 to November 1993 did you serve in

25 the HVO in Tuzla or the Tuzla area, and were you subsequently arrested by

Page 25125

1 them for the assistance you were giving Serb civilians crossing from Tuzla

2 into territory controlled by the VRS?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. You were released following that arrest.

5 Paragraph 6. Did you move to Republika Srpska in November 1993,

6 getting to Bijeljina, and in Bijeljina did you become aware of

7 paramilitary units?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. What paramilitary units were you aware of?

10 A. I knew that there were the Panthers, a unit called Crni, then

11 Mauzer's Chetniks and quite a number of other units whose names I cannot

12 recollect.

13 Q. In November 1993, did you cross to Serbia, going to Titov Vrbas,

14 staying with a friend until early 1994?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. At that time was there a problem for men with Bosnian identity

17 papers in that they would be returned, if detected, to the custody of the

18 VRS and forcibly mobilised?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Did you decide with your wife to return to Republika Srpska where

21 you had a relation living?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. At the border between Serbia and Republika Srpska, were you

24 ordered to report, being a Croat, to the police station at Foca, but when

25 you got to Foca, were you then told to move to Bijeljina?

Page 25126

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. In Bijeljina were you now aware of the same paramilitary units?

3 A. Yes. Those I mentioned a moment ago. There were the same units

4 there.

5 Q. Who was the commander of the Crni unit?

6 A. I don't know his name, but I do know his surname because we had

7 known each other before. His surname is Vasiljevic, and his nickname was

8 Crni, and the unit was called by his nickname, Crni, meaning black.

9 Q. And this unit consisted of men from which town?

10 A. Mostly refugees from the surrounding places around Tuzla.

11 Q. Whereabouts had these men been trained?

12 A. As far as I know and on the basis of what I heard, the commander

13 Crni went to attend training in Pancevo, as did several others from his

14 unit. I know about him because I heard about it.

15 Q. The Panthers were commanded by whom?

16 A. Ljubisa Mauzer.

17 Q. How many men in this unit, please?

18 A. Maybe around 100, 120, something like that.

19 Q. And can you give a brief account of the uniforms worn by both the

20 Crni and the Panther units, please.

21 A. The Crni members mostly wore black uniforms, black overalls, and

22 they had black berets. And members of the Panthers wore the uniforms of

23 the army of Republika Srpska. Some wore red berets, some black berets or

24 green berets.

25 Q. What view did you form as to of which corps or similar these units

Page 25127

1 were a part?

2 A. They were a part of the Bijeljina corps.

3 Q. Were they based in the Bijeljina corps barracks and were they

4 guarded by the military police of the Bijeljina corps?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Were they used on regular or special missions and by whom were

7 they instructed?

8 A. They were used mostly for special cases or missions, and I assume

9 that they received instructions from the Main Staff.

10 Q. Paragraph 15, briefly. Were you aware of a visit by Arkan to

11 Bijeljina? If so, when, to what purpose, and with what effect?

12 A. I think this was in November that Arkan came to Bijeljina, and he

13 held a meeting with the local Serbs who were holding positions in that

14 town, and they intended to carry out an operation. But I only heard about

15 this. I don't know for sure. Apparently Arkan requested a certain sum of

16 money for him to carry out a certain assignment. However, this was

17 refused, and it was never carried out.

18 Q. Before we move on, can I just go back to one other question about

19 the two units, that is the Crni and the Panthers. You've given an account

20 of your recollection of the uniforms. What, if any, insignia did they

21 have consistent with their names or otherwise identifying the group of

22 which they were members?

23 A. I can remember for the Panthers. They wore on their left sleeve a

24 Panther, the symbol of a Panther. So I knew they were members of that

25 unit.

Page 25128

1 As for Crni, I can't remember exactly what kind of insignia they

2 had as this was a long time ago, and I can't remember.

3 Q. And as to the men who trained these units, can you say anything

4 about the uniform or insignia of those men?

5 A. Could you please explain your question, because I don't understand

6 which men you're referring to, the men that were carrying out the

7 training, as you've said.

8 Q. Yes, were you aware of who trained these men? If not, we'll move

9 on; if you were, I'll ask the next question.

10 A. I said that I know only about Crni and certain members of his

11 units who went for training to Pancevo, and if they were trained in

12 Pancevo, then probably they were trained by officers of the army of

13 Yugoslavia. Now, what kind of insignia exactly they wore, I don't know

14 what uniforms they wore at the time. I do know that the army of

15 Yugoslavia had dark green uniforms, a combination of dark and lighter

16 green coloured uniforms.

17 Q. Thank you. That's sufficient. We'll move on. Paragraph 16.

18 Did you have any allegiance to any particular sect or the army of

19 any particular sect?

20 A. Religion? No.

21 Q. Religion, yes.

22 A. No.

23 Q. Did you, nevertheless, join up as a soldier? And explain why,

24 please.

25 A. I joined a unit that later came to be known as the 10th Sabotage

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Page 25130

1 unit or detachment, which consisted of eight to ten soldiers, most of whom

2 were Croats. There was one Muslim and one Slovene. I joined that unit I

3 think in April of 1994, and this unit belonged to the army of Republika

4 Srpska.

5 Q. And why did you join or feel the need to join?

6 A. I went to the military department in Bijeljina, I said I was a

7 Croat and that I wanted to join a unit, and they told me that it would be

8 best for me to join a unit that had already been formed of several Croats

9 and Muslims, and that is what I did. And I joined the army, because if I

10 hadn't joined then, I would have been arrested and mobilised the next day.

11 I had no rights. If you were not in the army, you didn't have any rights.

12 Q. Were those initial eight to ten soldiers in the group that -- or

13 the unit that was subsequently named as the Sabotage Detachment initially

14 housed at a house in Dvorovi in Bijeljina?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. The commander was whom?

17 A. The commander at the time was Zoran Manojlovic.

18 Q. By whom were you trained?

19 A. I was trained by a former officer of the Yugoslav People's Army.

20 Q. In what skills?

21 A. In sabotage skills; planting explosives, acting and use of

22 explosives and so on.

23 Q. You say that the person who trained you was a former officer of

24 the army. Do you know one way or another whether his position with that

25 army was current or past?

Page 25131

1 A. Past. He simply came there. He was a civilian after that. He

2 did not want to be in the army. He came at the request of Zoran

3 Manojlovic to show us how to use explosives and to train us in some

4 sabotage skills that we should be aware of. He left after that training.

5 He was no longer in the army. He did not belong to a single unit.

6 Q. Were the eight to ten men supplemented by others? If so, from

7 where did those others come, and who became the commander of the unit?

8 A. In the month of October, Lieutenant Milorad Pelemis came to our

9 unit. He then became the commander of our unit. That is when our unit

10 became bigger.

11 Q. Where did the other recruits come from, if you can help us?

12 A. From all parts of Republika Srpska.

13 Q. In December 1994, did a number of the new recruits go for

14 training? If so, how many roughly, and where?

15 A. I think that there were between 50 and -- between 40 and 50

16 persons who went for training to Pancevo, to the Federal Republic of

17 Yugoslavia, the military barracks there.

18 Q. Did you go?

19 A. No.

20 Q. When those who had gone returned, what did they bring with them?

21 A. They brought some new weapons, explosives, a few uniforms; things

22 like that.

23 Q. What if any authorisation would have been required for them to

24 pass to and from Pancevo in Serbia?

25 A. In order to enter Republika Srpska from Serbia, I think that no

Page 25132

1 particular authorisation was needed. However, in order to leave Republika

2 Srpska and go to Serbia, somebody would have to know about that in order

3 for them to cross the border, because there were quite a few police forces

4 on the border, at the border crossings between Bosnia and Serbia -- I

5 mean, Republika Srpska and Serbia.

6 Q. How long did the training in Serbia last?

7 A. Two to three weeks.

8 Q. Those who had been trained, did they remain with the units up to

9 and including the time of the takeover of Srebrenica?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. In the course of your time as a member of the 10th Sabotage

12 Detachment, as it came to be called, and in March or April of 1995, did

13 you meet three particular officers, one of whom had a nickname?

14 A. Yes, I did. Yes.

15 Q. What uniforms did they have, and what did they say about where

16 they'd come from and what they were doing?

17 A. They had uniforms of the army of Yugoslavia. They were dark

18 green, dark green and light green, a lighter shade of green. They said --

19 because I mean they were in an office and I was in that office too. They

20 said that they had come from the army of Yugoslavia, that they were from

21 Pancevo. They knew the persons from my unit who had been in Pancevo, and

22 they also knew Commander Pelemis. One of these officers had a nickname;

23 Jenki.

24 Q. What did they do while they were stationed with you?

25 A. The first time I saw them, they were visiting the Main Staff. The

Page 25133

1 second time, when they came again, they were conducting training with us

2 from the 10th Sabotage Detachment. This training took place in Vlasenica

3 where the Vlasenica platoon from my unit was.

4 Q. Roughly what time was this training?

5 A. I think it was also in March, beginning of April. I don't know, I

6 can't remember exactly.

7 Q. You've spoken of the Vlasenica platoon. Was the detachment

8 divided into two platoons, one from Vlasenica and one from Bijeljina?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. These officers who were training the Vlasenica platoon, did they

11 acknowledge openly coming from the VJ?

12 A. Well, I can't remember now exactly whether they specifically

13 acknowledged that, but according to what I heard, what was being said in

14 that office, I came to the conclusion that that was the truth. And I know

15 it's the truth, because when they came to Bijeljina to the barracks there,

16 they once asked Pelemis to give them the special permits so that they

17 could pass through the checkpoints where they were supposed to pass. And

18 they also asked for a replacement of their licence plates on their

19 vehicles.

20 Q. And were they indeed provided with replacement licence plates so

21 that they could pass less obviously coming from outside?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. How well equipped were they with weapons?

24 A. Well, they had normal weapons with them that were used by officers

25 mostly at that time.

Page 25134

1 Q. At this time, was your unit in receipt of uniforms and/or weapons?

2 If so, who organised them and where did they come from?

3 A. For the most part, our uniforms and weapons were obtained by

4 Pelemis through some channels that he had in Serbia. I don't know which

5 channels these were but I know that this came from Serbia.

6 Q. Physically how were they brought to you from Serbia?

7 A. Well, Pelemis, if he would go there to Serbia, he would bring this

8 in the car that he would take to Serbia.

9 Q. What about weapons?

10 A. Yes, weapons and uniforms. All of this would come from Serbia to

11 Republika Srpska. Pelemis would make sure of that.

12 Q. Can you give us some idea of the number of trips involving weapons

13 that you were aware Pelemis made, or some idea of the quantity of weapons

14 he brought with him?

15 A. The weapons that he brought with him were special weapons, for the

16 most part, that they procured. I don't know where and how. The quantity

17 was not big because there were a few, perhaps about ten of these special

18 weapons only.

19 Q. You've told us about - paragraph 24 - about the two platoons. The

20 commander of the Bijeljina platoon was whom?

21 A. The commander of the Bijeljina platoon was Franc Kos. And the

22 commander of the Vlasenica platoon was Lule. I only know his nickname.

23 Q. By whom was -- beg your pardon. The detachment was commanded by

24 Pelemis. From whom did he receive orders, as you understood it?

25 A. Pelemis received orders from persons who were in the Main Staff in

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Page 25136

1 -- I'm sorry, I've started forgetting my own language.

2 Q. If and when you have trouble with your own language, just take

3 time and, if necessary, I'll ask you the question again, and don't feel

4 under any pressure.

5 So the question is: Who instructed Pelemis? Can you put a name

6 to the person who instructed him?

7 A. Yes, I can do that. It was Colonel Salapura who instructed him.

8 He was on the Main Staff.

9 Q. Anybody else on the Main Staff who you can remember giving

10 instructions to Pelemis?

11 A. I know definitely about Salapura. I don't really know about the

12 others. There were others probably too, but I really don't know.

13 Q. And the name of Pelemis's deputy, please?

14 A. Radoslav Kremenovic.

15 Q. When the 10th Sabotage Detachment was deployed to an area of

16 Republika Srpska under the command of another brigade, who retained

17 command of the Sabotage Detachment unit?

18 A. Can you please repeat your question? I didn't quite understand

19 it.

20 Q. When the 10th Sabotage Detachment was deployed or used in areas of

21 Republika Srpska under the command of another brigade, who actually

22 controlled the Sabotage Detachment?

23 A. It depends. If Pelemis would be there, then it would be Pelemis.

24 And if Pelemis would not be there, then it would be the commander of that

25 group, and he would always be -- he would always be in a position to

Page 25137

1 command the 10th Sabotage Detachment.

2 Q. Prior to July 1995, did the detachment take part in missions in

3 the safe area of Srebrenica? If so, for what purpose?

4 A. Yes. They tried to liquidate Safet -- Naser, Naser Oric.

5 Q. How many such missions were there, roughly?

6 A. I think two or three. I don't know exactly. I know of two,

7 though.

8 Q. Do you connect in your own mind the timing of the attack on

9 Srebrenica to Oric's movements in some way?

10 A. Yes. I learned that afterwards, after the fall of Srebrenica,

11 that Naser Oric was at a meeting in Tuzla with his non-commissioned

12 officers and commissioned officers. I don't know whether this is 100 per

13 cent true, but I heard -- that's what I heard, and I believe that that's

14 the way it was.

15 Q. Before I move to the attack on Srebrenica, just two matters of

16 detail. You received wages -- this is paragraph 26. You received wages

17 for your work in the Sabotage Detachment. Do you know who provided the

18 money for those wages?

19 A. Yes. Yes. I received wages, and -- and as far as I know,

20 everything came through Pelemis and persons who were in charge of

21 logistics in our unit.

22 Q. Paragraph 31. In your operations in Republika Srpska, did you

23 ever see VJ or SDB units active?

24 A. No.

25 Q. Paragraph 33, coming to the attack on Srebrenica. On the 10th of

Page 25138

1 July in the morning, did you receive orders that you were to go to

2 Srebrenica? If so, where did the orders come from?

3 A. Well, I personally was told this by Franc Kos, commander of the

4 platoon. He said that we should go home and take our personal toiletries

5 and clothes and that we should come back to barracks and go out on

6 assignment.

7 Q. Exhibit 514 --

8 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please, for Mr. Nice.

9 MR. NICE:

10 Q. Exhibit 514, tab 1. Sorry about the microphone. This is a map.

11 It's not entirely clear on the screen because of its scale but the Chamber

12 has it in tab 1 for hard copy reference purposes. It's Srebrenica at the

13 bottom right-hand part of this map, Zvornik in the middle, and other

14 places shown further up the map towards Bijeljina.

15 I want you to deal with this fairly briefly, please, Mr.

16 Erdemovic. Instructed in the way that you were, did you board a bus with

17 others from your platoon, so instructed, head towards Bratunac where you

18 arrived at about 2.00, and there did you join 25 to 30 members of the

19 Vlasenica platoon?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. What military police were present, if any?

22 A. Yes. We were there because we came on the bus. The bus stopped

23 in Bratunac, in front of the prefabricated buildings that were used by the

24 military police of the army of Republika Srpska. I can say that this

25 belonged to the Bratunac Brigade because they were there.

Page 25139

1 Q. Later did you board trucks and go towards Skelani, passing a UN

2 checkpoint on the way?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Did you reach the southern elevation above Srebrenica that evening

5 and stay the night, and were you joined by Pelemis that night?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. On the 11th of July, did the assault on Srebrenica begin?

8 A. Yes. The town of Srebrenica itself. But before that, there had

9 been fighting, as far as I could see.

10 Q. What, if anything, were you told about the attitude you should

11 take towards civilians in the course of the attack on Srebrenica?

12 A. Yes. On the morning of the 11th, Pelemis told us that we should

13 send civilians to the football stadium, that we should not shoot at

14 civilians.

15 Q. The Court is now viewing on the screen tab 2 of the exhibit which

16 shows Srebrenica at the bottom.

17 Was your unit divided into four groups? If so, led by whom? Can

18 you give us the names of the leaders of the four groups?

19 A. Yes. Yes. Four groups were planned. One group was Marko Boskic,

20 the other was Franc Kos, the other was Zoran Malic, and I can't remember

21 exactly now whether it was Brano Gojkovic or Lule who led the remaining

22 one. I can't remember that exactly.

23 Q. Were you joined by another group of about 15 men? If so, can you

24 name the group from which they came?

25 A. They belonged to the Zvornik Brigade, as far as I know. It was

Page 25140

1 the group of Drinski Vukovi, the Drina Wolves. Their commander was

2 Legenda. Rather, "Legenda" was his nickname.

3 Q. Did Pelemis tell you whether other units were involved and give

4 you any idea where they came from?

5 A. I think -- I can't remember exactly. I think that he said they

6 were units from Sejkovici, Vlasenica, Milici, Bratunac; all the

7 surrounding villages around Srebrenica.

8 Q. The commander of the Drina Wolves was who?

9 A. I just know his nickname. His nickname was Legenda.

10 Q. Who did it appear to you was in charge of the attack on Srebrenica

11 generally?

12 A. The leader of that attack -- I mean, at first I thought it would

13 be Pelemis who would be in charge of the attack. However, according to

14 what I could see, it was Legenda who was the one who was in charge of this

15 action.

16 Q. Was the participation of your unit in this attack something that

17 was expected by you or was it unexpected and unusual?

18 A. I can speak about the persons from the Bijeljina platoon. We had

19 never taken part in such actions.

20 MR. NICE: Your Honour, I'm not going to deal with the geography

21 leading to Srebrenica in detail. The witness can deal with that if it's

22 relevant and if he's asked. I have an eye on the clock and wish to finish

23 by half past ten.

24 Q. Paragraph 39. Did your group move from the south of the town

25 towards the town itself?

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Page 25142

1 A. Yes.

2 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for Mr. Nice, please.

3 MR. NICE: Apologise. Being displayed at the moment is Exhibit

4 514, tab 3. The hard copy may merit your attention because there are a

5 couple or three points marked on it, A, B, and C, which don't show up and

6 the witness will deal with them briefly. Perhaps he can have a hard copy

7 in front of him, or it could even go on the overhead projector. The

8 points are not particularly critical although they are of interest.

9 Q. Did the attack start at about 10.00 and reach the centre of town

10 by about noon?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. At the time that the attack was mounted at position B on tab 3,

13 was the mosque still standing? Was it attacked? Did it have a flag? Was

14 the flag removed?

15 A. No. That flag was not removed from that mosque. It was taken off

16 the mosque that was to the south, at the very entrance into the outskirts

17 of Srebrenica.

18 MR. NICE: Yes. I'm grateful to Mr. Waespi, who I should have

19 reminded the Chamber is sitting with us today, for correcting me on that,

20 my mistake.

21 Q. What happened at the mosque, if anything? At the other mosque.

22 A. As far as I can see on this picture, this mosque which was in the

23 centre of town is no longer there. That's what I can say. I cannot see

24 anything else, so I can't say anything about the others.

25 Q. Did you come across a group of elderly civilians, about 200 in

Page 25143

1 number?

2 A. No. I think that when we talked about this the question was what

3 I think, approximately how many civilians had been in Srebrenica from what

4 I could see, and then I said that there were about 200 of them, perhaps,

5 but for the most part, they were elderly persons.

6 Q. In what direction were they moving, if you saw them moving?

7 A. Well, if somebody would go out of the house -- every person was

8 asked to leave the house, actually, to get out of the house and to walk in

9 front of the soldiers so they would not get killed. And that's what they

10 did, they walked in front of us. We came from the southern side and they

11 walked in front of us towards the centre of town, and then they went on

12 further.

13 Q. Do you know in what direction that would have taken them?

14 A. I didn't know then but I know now that Potocari was in that

15 direction.

16 Q. Roughly how many Serb soldiers were involved in the attack?

17 A. I don't know exactly, but I think there could have been about 500

18 to 700 soldiers. I think. I don't know exactly.

19 Q. Did you encounter any resistance from Muslim forces?

20 A. There wasn't any stronger resistance, only a few sniper shots.

21 There wasn't any kind of fierce resistance.

22 Q. Was there any destruction of any houses or any single house even?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Detail, please.

25 A. When we got down into town, we were told that as we walked ahead

Page 25144

1 -- I mean, since there were shots coming from that hill above Srebrenica,

2 it was a Praga, and it was used to remove any resistance coming from the

3 other hills. And when it would be noticed from where a sniper shot had

4 come, they would tell us to burn the first thing that would be near us so

5 that we could in this way show how far we had advanced. And that's how

6 this house was burned, because it was the first one there so that this

7 person could show where he was.

8 Q. Any looting happen?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. By whom and of what sort of property?

11 A. Well, afterwards when Srebrenica was taken, these local Serbs --

12 these local Serbs who for the most part had been born in Srebrenica and

13 who had fled to Bratunac or Vlasenica or Zvornik, they took TV sets, video

14 recorders, things like that.

15 MR. NICE: Before we move on to the detail of what happened in the

16 course of the attack, can we look, please, at tab 4 of Exhibit 514. It's

17 a video clip, and I think that the transcript won't be available, so the

18 Chamber may want to cast its eyes over without dwelling at length on the

19 transcript at tab 4 and I'll ask the witness a couple of questions about

20 what we see.

21 [Videotape played]

22 MR. NICE: The transcript's available for review generally if we

23 need to -- or in detail if we need to look at it.

24 Q. But help us, please, Mr. Erdemovic. That was a United Nations

25 vehicle that was in a ditch. We saw a man with a United Nations helmet

Page 25145

1 tucked into his belt carrying -- a United Nations cap tucked into his belt

2 carrying a United Nations helmet, and we saw General Mladic. Do you know

3 personally anything about this particular event or not?

4 A. Yes, it is a UN vehicle. The soldier carrying the cap in his belt

5 and holding a UN helmet in his hand is a person who belonged to my unit,

6 and he was a driver. He was Commander Pelemis's driver.

7 Q. Who else did you recognise on that video?

8 A. I recognised Mladic. I recognised Zivanovic, and I saw a person

9 who was the communications man in my unit.

10 Q. Very briefly -- look very briefly at tab 5, please. Who do you

11 recognise here, apart from Mladic who is in middle? Anybody else?

12 A. Yes; Krstic.

13 Q. Thank you. And tab 6. Tab 6 has the man with the beret and the

14 helmet.

15 A. Yes. You can't see him clearly here, but that is the person I

16 referred to.

17 Q. Have we on this clip, or on this still -- sorry, on the clip of

18 the video or on the still, a picture of the normal uniform of people in

19 your detachment?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Namely who?

22 A. On this still we see the driver who was in our unit and who drove

23 Commander Pelemis. His nickname was Cico.

24 Q. Very well. And is the uniform he's wearing the uniform of your

25 detachment?

Page 25146

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Let's go back to tab 3, the hard copy that the Chamber may wish to

3 look at, and to the events on the advance into Srebrenica.

4 In the course of that advance, was there one man who was

5 mistreated, in your judgement, by men from the group, and did Pelemis

6 instruct what should happen to him?

7 A. That person was mistreated. He was not mistreated by a single

8 person from our unit, he was mistreated by people who had come down from

9 the surrounding hills and who belonged, I don't know exactly to which,

10 Vlasenica, Sehovici units, but Pelemis did order a soldier to kill him, a

11 soldier from my unit.

12 Q. By reference to the photograph, aerial photograph tab 3,

13 whereabouts did this killing happen and how was it done?

14 A. The killing happened here, and the person from my unit slit the

15 throat of this man.

16 Q. Was your group told by Pelemis to report by radio when General

17 Mladic and others reached town? Paragraph 46.

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. At what time did Mladic arrive? Did you notify Pelemis of this

20 fact?

21 A. Pelemis was informed about it, and Mladic arrived in town shortly

22 afterwards, maybe between 1.00 and 2.00 p.m., I don't know exactly.

23 MR. NICE: I'm grateful to Mr. Waespi for helping me to make

24 matters easier for the Chamber. Can we just look at tab 20 very briefly.

25 Q. The man who slit the throat on the instructions of Pelemis, is he

Page 25147

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Page 25148

1 shown in this picture?

2 A. Yes. It's the man number 2, marked with a 2.

3 Q. Thank you. I return to the arrival of Mladic in town. Can we

4 look, please, at tab 7, which is a -- there was a part of tab 7 which is

5 the video.

6 MR. NICE: Your Honours will see that tab 7 is an extended entry

7 of a video clip of various things. We're just going to be looking at the

8 very last part on what is page 9, at the bottom right. Page 8 as well.

9 [Videotape played]

10 MR. NICE: If you could just pause there for a second, please.

11 The Chamber will have seen on the foot of page 8 of tab 7

12 congratulations being offered by Mladic, his saying the town is clean --

13 an unidentified voice saying the town is clean, you can drive by car with

14 no problem. Then reference to Krstic, on to Potocari, Bratunac, don't

15 stop at Potocari. I think that's the passage we were at although we

16 weren't having either the transcript or the translation.

17 Press on, please. We're now, I think, on the top of page 9.

18 [Videotape played]

19 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "Cameraman, cameraman.

20 "Come on Krle, over here.

21 "We brought in the flag two years ago to the day. Two years ago

22 on the 11th of July. This is free.

23 "General, sir.

24 "That's good. Excellent. Forget about history, please. Go so

25 we'll come out at Bratunac. Come on. Forget about history. Forward.

Page 25149

1 "Here we are on the 11th of July, 1995, in Serbian Srebrenica. On

2 the eve of one more great Serbian holiday we present this town to the

3 Serbian people. After the rebellion against the Turkish governor, the

4 moment has finally come for us to take revenge on the Turks here.

5 "Look, everything over. Come on. Naser's hideout, brother. How

6 did it get here?"

7 MR. NICE: The end of that clip.

8 Q. Does this clip reflect the timing of the arrival of Mladic into

9 Srebrenica, as you recall?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And if we look at tab 8, which is a clip -- a still from that

12 clip, do we see a flag lying on the wooden structure in the foreground?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. What flag was that, and then can you tell us about any of the

15 people shown on the picture?

16 A. It is the flag with a crescent and star. It was taken off the

17 first mosque as we entered town.

18 On this still, you can't see it clearly now, but there are several

19 soldiers from my unit on that picture.

20 Q. By name?

21 A. Velimir Popovic, Stanko Savanovic, and a person whose name I said

22 before I didn't want to state and my position remains unchanged today.

23 Q. Look again --

24 THE INTERPRETER: Mike, please.

25 MR. NICE:

Page 25150

1 Q. Look at clip -- tab 9 of the exhibit. The Chamber may remember

2 this man is not very well shown on the still.

3 Who is that in the foreground?

4 A. It is Zivanovic, General Zivanovic, who was commander of the Drina

5 Corps.

6 Q. Tab 10, please. Can you tell us who is shown here?

7 A. On this photograph we can see the commander of my unit, Milorad

8 Pelemis.

9 Q. Is he the one on the left or the right?

10 A. He is on the right, the first on the right as I face the picture.

11 Q. I now want to move to the period the 12th to the 15th of July. On

12 the 12th of July, were you instructed that you would be leaving

13 Srebrenica, but you went not to Bijeljina but to Vlasenica, and were you

14 on the 13th of July informed that you had to attend a funeral in Trebinje

15 some way away, reaching there on the 14th of July, and then moving back to

16 Vlasenica on the morning of the 15th?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. On the 16th of July, did Brano Gojkovic inform you of new

19 instructions?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Where did you have to go and what were you told about your duties

22 at this early stage?

23 A. Brano Gojkovic just said that Pelemis had said that we were going

24 into action. Just then, he didn't explain anything in connection with

25 that operation nor what our assignment would be.

Page 25151

1 Q. Where did you go?

2 A. We left the house in which the Vlasenica platoon was housed, and

3 we went in the direction of Zvornik.

4 Q. Tab 11, please, on the ELMO. What does this show?

5 A. We can see here the buildings and the quarters where we stopped

6 with our vehicle. Brano Gojkovic and the driver, Aleksandar Cvetkovic,

7 entered the reception area, and they came out shortly afterwards together

8 with a lieutenant colonel and two military policemen.

9 Q. On their return to your vehicle, what did you do? Where did you

10 all go?

11 A. When they returned, when they came out, this lieutenant colonel

12 and two military policemen, they said that we should get into our vehicle

13 and that we should follow the vehicle in which the lieutenant colonel and

14 the two military policemen were. And their vehicle was an olive-green

15 colour, and it had licence plates of the army of Republika Srpska, and the

16 brand name was an Opel Kadet.

17 Q. You went, as you were to discover, to this farm shown at tab 12 of

18 Exhibit 514; is that correct?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Just go back briefly to tab 1, if we could do that. Can you tell

21 us which figure on this marked map shows where the farm is?

22 A. B.

23 Q. So some considerable distance from Srebrenica from which, as we're

24 going to discover, buses were coming.

25 When you got to the farm, what happened?

Page 25152

1 A. When we reached the farm, there were several persons there in

2 uniforms of the army of Republika Srpska, and then this lieutenant colonel

3 ordered these people to leave the farm and said that only one guard should

4 remain, who was a guard there anyway as far as I was able to see. And

5 then Brano said what was going to happen.

6 Q. Explain, please.

7 A. Brano said that buses would start arriving with civilians from

8 Srebrenica.

9 Q. What were you to do to the people coming from buses?

10 A. They were to be executed.

11 Q. Who was with you on the detachment?

12 A. Franc Kos, Marko Boskic, Goronja Zoran, Stanko Savanovic, Brano

13 Gojkovic, Aleksandar Cvetkovic, Marko Boskic, and Golijan Zoran -- I'm

14 sorry, Vlastimir Golijan.

15 Q. You may have told us this: Was there anybody there with a

16 military police sign on their sleeves; and if so, from what area did you

17 calculate he came?

18 A. There were those two military policemen who had come with that

19 lieutenant colonel. As far as I was able to judge, they must have been

20 military policemen from the Drina Corps.

21 Q. A brief description of the appearance of the lieutenant colonel,

22 please.

23 A. He was tall, heavily built, about 1 metre 90 centimetres in

24 height. He had prominent features and a loud voice. He had a receding

25 hairline. His hair was not all grey, but it was greyish, turning grey,

Page 25153

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Page 25154

1 and he was between 40 and 50 years of age, in my assessment.

2 Q. You've already told us at the beginning of your evidence that you

3 took part in the executions. We'll come to a little of the detail in

4 minute or so, but did the colonel stay, the lieutenant colonel stay while

5 the executions were going on or not?

6 A. He did not; he left.

7 Q. Having been given instructions, did you raise any objection to

8 what you were being asked to do?

9 A. Yes. Not just me, but two other persons from my unit raised the

10 issue why this was being done. I personally couldn't understand why this

11 was going on. I couldn't believe it.

12 Q. What was the reaction to your objection? How was your objection

13 overborne?

14 A. Brano Gojkovic said that, "You join them and line up and give them

15 your rifle and see whether they will shoot at you."

16 Q. In the event, what time, roughly, if you can remember, did the

17 first bus arrive?

18 A. Around 10.00, between 10.00 and 11:00 in the morning. I can't

19 remember exactly.

20 Q. What guard was there on the bus, if any?

21 A. In the bus, as far as I was able to see, there were two military

22 policemen. I don't know if they were there on each of the buses.

23 Q. And on the ground, armed and ready to execute people coming from

24 the bus were a total of how many men?

25 A. Eight men with weapons. They were members of my unit. Later,

Page 25155

1 members came from the Bratunac unit.

2 Q. Starting at the beginning, were people ordered off or taken off

3 the bus in groups of ten at a time?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. By reference to the photograph - and we can put a hard copy on the

6 overhead projector to assist, perhaps - whereabouts were they shot?

7 A. They were shot here in this field, just below the farm.

8 Q. And after the first ten had been shot, were another ten taken off

9 or ordered off the bus and were they lined up and shot?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And then so on progressively for that bus and for later buses that

12 arrived at the farm; correct?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Executions by your group, were they done in a sequential way,

15 starting at one end of the field and moving towards the farm?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Was there a time when a machine-gun was used but that was found to

18 be not efficient because it left people mutilated who had to be finished

19 off with pistols?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Were the first victims off the first bus blindfolded and with

22 their hands tied but later did you find the people coming off without

23 having their hands tied?

24 A. Yes, as far as I can remember.

25 Q. Did those men whose hands were not tied have to do something with

Page 25156

1 their identification cards?

2 A. Yes. They were ordered to take out everything they had in their

3 pockets by way of documents and to throw them down in the corner of the

4 garage.

5 Q. Roughly how many -- well, I'll come to the total number of buses

6 in a minute.

7 Was there any resistance by any individual of those executed?

8 A. I just think that one person, when these people from Bratunac

9 came, but only one person tried to resist.

10 Q. I'll deal with the arrival of the men from Bratunac. What time

11 did they arrive?

12 A. I don't know exactly, but maybe between 2.00 and 3.00. I don't

13 know. I can't remember.

14 Q. Did they take over the executions from you or did they kill

15 alongside you?

16 A. They took over.

17 Q. Was their killing orderly, using the field in a sequential way, or

18 was their killing all over the field?

19 A. They first mistreated several of those persons because they

20 recognised them, and then they started killing them all over the field.

21 Q. Then the one man who resisted was in the time that the people from

22 -- the men from Bratunac were there and he was killed, I think; correct?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Paragraph 65. Was the one man who told you he'd helped Serbs get

25 out of Srebrenica and provided a piece of paper with some relevant

Page 25157

1 telephone numbers on it, and did you refer his case to Brano Gojkovic?

2 A. He told me this.

3 Q. What did Brano Gojkovic do with this man?

4 A. I tried to save that man, but Brano Gojkovic said that he didn't

5 want to have any witnesses.

6 Q. Were all the victims men?

7 A. Yes. At that farm, yes.

8 Q. Their age range and the clothes they were wearing, please.

9 A. They were wearing civilian clothes, and they were between maybe 18

10 and 60 years of age.

11 Q. You've already given a total estimated number for those killed

12 right at the beginning of your evidence. Were you given any information

13 as to how their bodies were to be moved or buried?

14 A. Yes. This person who was the guard at the farm said that they

15 would be buried, that pits would be dug and that they would be buried in

16 this field below the garage.

17 MR. NICE: Your Honour, I see the time. I haven't finished in the

18 first session. I've been one hour and 20 minutes. I think I probably can

19 finish in other ten minutes.

20 JUDGE MAY: Very well. We'll adjourn now.

21 Mr. Erdemovic, would you remember not to speak to anybody during

22 the adjournment about your evidence until it's over, and that does include

23 the members of the Prosecution team.

24 If the registrar would come up, please.

25 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

Page 25158

1 JUDGE MAY: We will adjourn now, 20 minutes.

2 --- Recess taken at 10.35 a.m.

3 --- On resuming at 11.00 a.m.

4 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Nice.

5 MR. NICE:

6 Q. When the last bus had arrived and its occupants been executed, did

7 you see the lieutenant colonel again?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. What instructions did he give you?

10 A. He gave instructions to Brano. He said that at that house in

11 Pilica there were about 500 persons from Srebrenica and that they were

12 trying to break down the door and get out.

13 Q. What was your reaction?

14 A. Well, we said -- I said that I wouldn't do it any longer and that

15 I couldn't do it any longer. I was supported in this by some persons from

16 my unit, so we did not go to do that at the house in Pilica. However,

17 persons from Bratunac went there and did it.

18 Q. Let's go back to tab 1 of Exhibit 514. Is Pilica shown at the top

19 close to where the farm is, please?

20 A. Yes. Letter A.

21 Q. Thank you. Let's now move on to tab 15. Although you didn't go

22 to do what the lieutenant colonel wanted you to do, did you go to the area

23 and wait while the men from Bratunac did what was requested, or apparently

24 did what was requested of them?

25 A. Yes. Brano said that the lieutenant colonel had said that we

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Page 25160

1 should go to the cafe, that it was in this place called Pilica. The cafe

2 was opposite this cultural centre in the village of Pilica where these

3 persons from Srebrenica were detained.

4 Q. The cafe is on the left of tab 15. Pilica Dom is on the right of

5 tab 15. We then have a front view of Pilica Dom on tab 16, and an aerial

6 view of it looking over the cafe towards Pilica Dom on tab 17; correct?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. On arrival, did you see any bodies on the ground in front of

9 Pilica Dom?

10 A. Yes. Yes, I did see a few bodies lying in front of the Dom.

11 Q. From your position on the other side of the road, what did you

12 hear of what the men from Bratunac were apparently doing?

13 A. While we were still at the farm when these people from Bratunac

14 were there, automatic gunfire could be heard. And I also heard a few hand

15 grenades explode. I could infer that these were explosions that were

16 caused by hand grenades.

17 Q. In Pilica itself while --

18 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for Mr. Nice, please.

19 MR. NICE:

20 Q. In Pilica itself while these things were going on, how normal or

21 abnormal was the life going on around the area? Were there people there

22 in neighbouring properties? Just describe, please.

23 Q. Well, I think that these persons, the inhabitants of Pilica knew

24 what was going on. On the basis of what I could see, there were people in

25 the street, also in front of the Dom. There was a civilian police

Page 25161

1 checkpoint. They could see all of it too. I think -- I did not notice

2 anything out of the usual except for the persons who were killed on that

3 day.

4 Q. Can you help us with the number of people who were killed at

5 Pilica Dom that day?

6 A. Well, I only heard what this lieutenant colonel had said, that

7 there had been 500 persons. No, I don't know how many there actually

8 were.

9 Q. And when it was all over, did you hear anything said about people

10 who survived?

11 A. Well, when these people from Bratunac came back, this lieutenant

12 colonel talked to them, and he also talked to some people from my unit,

13 and he said if there were any survivors, there were.

14 I heard the men from Bratunac then say that there was a female

15 whose brother had been detained in that Dom and that she did not want to

16 part with her brother and that therefore she was killed too. I don't know

17 how true all of that is, though.

18 Q. Tab 13 of Exhibit 514. Does this show, as you understand it,

19 women gathered at Potocari, the place in the direction of which you'd seen

20 elderly people moving at your takeover or part in the takeover of

21 Srebrenica?

22 A. As far as this picture is concerned, I can say that yes, I assume

23 that this is Potocari, but I did not see it myself, so I don't know

24 exactly whether this is Potocari. I cannot know whether these are the

25 civilians who I had seen. I see that there are civilians, and I assume

Page 25162

1 that they are in Potocari. I can't say anything.

2 I recognise one person that cannot be seen here, a person who is

3 on the left-hand side. This person took part in the execution on the

4 farm, and as far as I know, he was an inhabitant of Srebrenica before the

5 war. I think that he was born in Srebrenica and that he had fled to

6 Bratunac.

7 Q. Was he one of the men who had come from Bratunac part way through

8 the killing to take over from you?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Had he also been one of the men responding to the lieutenant

11 colonel's instructions at Pilica Dom?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Paragraph 79. Later in July or August of 1995, were you injured

14 and did you land up going to the military hospital in Belgrade where you

15 saw other members of the VRS from Bijeljina?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. In a nearby -- in a nearby bed was there man who explained he'd

18 worked for the state security in Serbia?

19 A. Well, he didn't say it to me personally, but that is what he was

20 saying, that he was a member of a unit that belonged to the state security

21 of the Republic of Serbia.

22 Q. Did he say anything about involvement of the Serbian MUP in

23 Srebrenica?

24 A. He said that he had allegedly been in Srebrenica, that his unit

25 had been in Srebrenica, that they took over Srebrenica.

Page 25163

1 Q. And his unit was a MUP unit from Serbia; is that your

2 understanding?

3 A. Yes. He was a member of a unit that belonged to the MUP of

4 Serbia.

5 Q. In a couple of sentences, the procedure whereby VRS soldiers such

6 as yourself could land up being treated in Belgrade, please.

7 A. According to what I know, I was wounded during the night - I don't

8 know exactly - around the 20th of July. I was heavily wounded. The

9 hospital in Bijeljina did not have the resources needed to help me. I was

10 transferred to the military hospital in Belgrade.

11 Q. Can we now please look at a short video clip of the ceremony, tab

12 19.

13 [Videotape played]

14 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover]

15 Radislav Krstic: "Soldiers of the Sabotage Detachment, Serbian

16 heroes! Allow me to salute you myself in the name of the members of the

17 Drina Corps as well as the name of the commander of the main staff and

18 congratulate you on the day of the formation of the unit."

19 Soldiers: "Thank you!"

20 Radislav Krstic: "With your activities so far, you have

21 demonstrated how a soldier of the army of Republika Srpska should fight.

22 You have completed all of your tasks very successfully until now, without

23 losses, which is a worthy achievement. We are in a situation --"

24 MR. NICE: Your Honour, that's all I require of this. The

25 remainder of the transcript can be found at tab 19.

Page 25164

1 Q. Mr. Erdemovic, was this a ceremony at which you were present?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And what happened so far as you were concerned and indeed also the

4 leader of your platoon?

5 A. I was not lined up at the time. I was sitting on the sidelines

6 because I had been wounded. I couldn't stand on my feet. Then I was

7 given the rank of reserve sergeant. Franc Kos, commander of the Bijeljina

8 platoon, got the rank of reserve lieutenant, I think; second lieutenant, I

9 think. I can't remember now. And this was the anniversary of the unit.

10 Q. We've seen tab 20 before for the purposes of looking at figure

11 number 2. Figure number 1 is whom?

12 A. It's Franc Kos, commanding officer of the Bijeljina platoon.

13 Q. Who was promoted as you've described. We look at number 2, the

14 man who slit somebody's throat on instruction. What's his name?

15 A. His name is Zoran. I don't know his surname, but his nickname is

16 Malic, and he belonged to the Vlasenica platoon.

17 Q. Two other documents, please, to look at. Tab 22, I think, or 21.

18 21. This document, please, that the Chamber has in English and we're

19 looking at the original. Just explain what it is, please.

20 A. This is a certificate allowing me to cross over to the Federal

21 Republic of Yugoslavia in the period denoted by the 20th of February,

22 1996.

23 Q. We can see Mladic's signature at the bottom.

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Next exhibit, please.

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Page 25166

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Tab 22 --

3 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for Mr. Nice, please.

4 MR. NICE:

5 Q. Next exhibit, tab 22, is a contract on admission of persons to the

6 army of Republika Srpska on a fixed-term contract. It sets out your name,

7 your rank as sergeant, your duties, and again it is a document signed, as

8 we can see at the end, by Mladic. The date it gives for the starting of

9 your engagement is February 1995. That doesn't accord with your

10 recollection. Can you explain why it only dates from February 1995?

11 A. I cannot explain because I did not receive any explanations then

12 as to the date.

13 Q. And the other signature at the foot of the document is, I think,

14 Pelemis whom you've been referring to; is that right?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Thank you very much. Two other questions just to tidy up matters

17 that I dealt with earlier.

18 We saw a clip of a UN vehicle being hauled out or being prepared

19 for being hauled out of the ditch by men of your detachment where Mladic

20 was present. Do you know how many other, if any other, UN vehicles were

21 seized by VRS soldiers in the course of the takeover of Srebrenica?

22 A. No.

23 Q. Do you know if there were any others or just do you not know?

24 A. No. I wouldn't want to make any assumptions.

25 Q. Second question: You've described the special weapons that came

Page 25167

1 with Pelemis by car from Serbia for your detachment. The first question

2 of two: Can you identify the particular type of weapon that he was

3 bringing in?

4 A. He was bringing in an Uzi. I think it is Israeli made. Then

5 Hecklers, then a sniper, a SAR rifle that had been brought in earlier.

6 Also, special arrows were used with infrared rays. Also some Russian

7 weapons, small-calibre weapons.

8 Q. My last question: Did any of these -- my last question: Did any

9 of these weapons have identifying serial numbers or other marks that would

10 indicate where they'd come from or what force they'd originally belonged

11 to?

12 A. I don't know exactly, but I think that all these weapons had their

13 serial numbers and also the origin on them where they had been

14 manufactured.

15 Q. I'm not so much concerned with places of manufacture but whether

16 they had identifying marks showing of what unit or army or whatever they'd

17 originally been property, if any.

18 A. No.

19 Q. Thank you very much. You'll be asked further questions.

20 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Milosevic.

21 Cross-examined by Mr. Milosevic:

22 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Erdemovic, in relation to these events that

23 you are testifying about, if I understood you correctly, during the attack

24 on Srebrenica, you were in Srebrenica all the time; is that right?

25 A. No. I was in Srebrenica from the 10th until the 12th in the

Page 25168

1 morning.

2 Q. That must be the time when the attack was actually taking place.

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Later on, you were involved in these events that you yourself said

5 were unbelievable, sometime from the 16th onwards; is that correct?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Tell me, please, at the time of the attack or at the time when

8 these events took place, the ones that you describe later, could you see

9 or hear of the participation of anyone from Serbia in these events?

10 A. I could not see anyone who was from Serbia according to what I

11 could see or tell.

12 Q. All right. Tell me, I understood from the examination-in-chief

13 that for a while you were in the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina, in Alija

14 Izetbegovic's army, before you joined the army of Republika Srpska, and

15 then for a while you were in the HVO; is that right?

16 A. No.

17 Q. In which order did all of this take place? You were in the JNA

18 while the JNA was still in existence?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. And then you were -- you went on to the army of Alija Izetbegovic;

21 right?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And for a short time you were in the Croat army; is that right?

24 A. Yes, that's right.

25 Q. And then you stopped being in the Croat army, and then you moved

Page 25169

1 on to the army of Republika Srpska?

2 A. Yes.

3 JUDGE MAY: I must remind you to speak one at a time.

4 Mr. Erdemovic, would you remember, keep an eye on his microphone

5 and wait until it's turned off, and then reply.

6 Yes. Yes, Mr. Milosevic.

7 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

8 Q. Tell me now, please, according to the information that I have, and

9 a short while ago we saw a document here which shows that you came to the

10 territory of Yugoslavia, and I noted it here as I was watching the screen,

11 the document was issued on the 20th of February, 1996; is that right?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. On which date did you come across to the territory of Yugoslavia?

14 A. I think it was that date.

15 Q. The 20th -- my microphone doesn't work. So then when that

16 document was issued to you, I saw that it says something like official

17 trip there or something like that.

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. On that same date you went to the territory of Yugoslavia.

20 A. I think it was on that very day or perhaps a day later.

21 Q. All right, perhaps a day later. According to the information I

22 have here, already after ten days or so you were arrested in the territory

23 of Yugoslavia; is that right?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Mr. Erdemovic, I have a document here, an official document, which

Page 25170

1 is entitled "Criminal report," and it says: "Against Erdemovic Drazen,

2 father's name Viktor," born et cetera, et cetera, Donja Dragunja, village

3 of Tuzla. Is that right? Those are your particulars?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Ethnic Croat, married, father of one child, locksmith, unemployed,

6 Radika Lakic [phoen] 144 is your address, detained from 1996, from the 3rd

7 of March, 1996. So you were in detention as of the 3rd of March 1996;

8 right?

9 A. Yes, as far as I can remember.

10 Q. It says here from 2200 hours onwards. And then it says because

11 there is suspicion that in Pilica between Zvornik and Bijeljina, as a

12 member of the 10th Sabotage Detachment of the army of Republika Srpska,

13 within the armed conflict of the territory of the former

14 Bosnia-Herzegovina, together with seven members of the army of Republika

15 Srpska, he committed killings of the civilian population in the following

16 way: In the period from 1030 until 1600 hours they killed about 1.200

17 ethnic Muslim citizens by firearms, who had previously been brought by

18 buses to the site of execution, and the person mentioned himself killed

19 about 100 identified persons as he was shooting with an M-70A automatic

20 rifle by individual gunfire and in this way he committed the crime of a

21 war crime against the civilian population from Article 142, paragraph 1 of

22 the Penal Code of Yugoslavia.

23 Is that right, Mr. Erdemovic?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. So just a few days after you set foot on Yugoslav soil, you were

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Page 25172

1 arrested precisely because of what you had just testified about, and the

2 explanation refers to Gojkovic Branko, Savanovic Stanko, Goronja Zoran,

3 Golijan Vlastimir, Boskic Marko, Kos Franc, and Cvetkovic Aleksandar. Is

4 that right?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. So this is what you're testifying about here.

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. And what is mentioned here is something that you also said, and

9 that is a lieutenant colonel of the army of Republika Srpska unknown to

10 you, and that you went to the village of Pilica, Zvornik, Bijeljinja, and

11 then what is described is roughly what you spoke of here; is that right?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. You know, I hope, that then on the basis of these criminal charges

14 brought against you, the authorities, the judicial authorities in charge,

15 the judicial authorities of Serbia, because the public prosecutor

16 instituted an investigation on the basis of this criminal report, you were

17 sent to custody; is that right?

18 A. Yes.

19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May, you don't have this

20 criminal report. It is dated the 6th of March, 1996, and it says that the

21 accused was arrested on the 3rd of March, which means only ten days after

22 he crossed into Serbia. So could this be admitted into evidence as an

23 exhibit?

24 JUDGE MAY: Just let the witness identify it. If you would show

25 it to the witness and then we'll admit it.

Page 25173

1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I read parts of this report, and the

2 witness confirmed that it was correct.

3 JUDGE MAY: Yes, but let him look at it.

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I just have to say that this

5 document was never shown to me and that I didn't sign it.

6 JUDGE MAY: Very well. The next exhibit number, please.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Defence Exhibit 169, Your Honour.

8 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

9 Q. A criminal report is not signed by the person against whom it is

10 issued, but I also have in connection with the question I put to you,

11 since the public prosecutor instituted an investigation, I assume that was

12 given to you, the side opposite has this document.

13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May, it has the number ERN

14 00399959, page 1, and then it goes on from there, the following numbers.

15 It is the district public prosecutor's office in Novi Sad, on the 8th of

16 March, 1996. So two days after the criminal report, and here there is a

17 request for the investigation to be conducted against Drazen Erdemovic.

18 And under number 2, against Radoslav Kremenovic.

19 And in this document, again reference is made to the fact that

20 they had killed about 1.200 citizens of Muslim ethnicity with firearms and

21 committed, thereby, a war crime as envisaged by the Criminal Code.

22 Could this be admitted into evidence as well, please.

23 JUDGE MAY: Let the witness see the document.

24 MR. NICE: The witness has just been shown a copy of the original.

25 JUDGE MAY: Yes. If you'd get the accused's copy.

Page 25174

1 Mr. Erdemovic, if there is anything you want to say about that

2 document, you can.

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] All I wish to say is that there are

4 several dates there that are not correct.

5 JUDGE MAY: Very well. Yes. We'll get the next number.

6 THE REGISTRAR: Defence Exhibit 170, Your Honour.

7 JUDGE KWON: What's the title of the document, Mr. Milosevic? Or

8 Mr. Erdemovic, you can tell me. The title of the document.

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It says that this is a request for

10 conducting an investigation against me and a person who was in my unit.

11 He was deputy commander of my unit, and his name is Kremenovic Radoslav.

12 JUDGE KWON: Thank you. We have already the English translation.

13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] That is the normal order; first the

14 criminal report of the police, then the request for conducting an

15 investigation by the public prosecutor.

16 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

17 Q. However, Mr. Erdemovic, you were not tried by Yugoslav courts for

18 this act, but your extradition was requested. You know that. Isn't that

19 right?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And that is how you arrived here and you were put on trial here;

22 is that right?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Precisely for the act as it is described in the criminal report

25 and the request for the conduct of an investigation issued by the Yugoslav

Page 25175

1 authorities; is that right?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. As far as I have been able to see from these documents, you

4 yourself confessed that you personally had killed about 100 men; is that

5 right?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. But the total was about 1.200, according to this report. You said

8 1.000 a moment ago.

9 A. Yes. I said between 1.000 and 1.200.

10 Q. And is it beyond dispute that for killing more than a thousand men

11 and for personally killing about 100 men you were sentenced to a prison

12 term of five years? Is that right?

13 A. Yes.

14 JUDGE MAY: The Court has the record.

15 Mr. Nice, perhaps you can assist us. What was the offence for

16 which this accused was ultimately convicted?

17 MR. NICE: It's dealt with on paragraph 3, violation of Article 3

18 of the Statute, violation of the laws and customs of war. I don't, I

19 think, have the indictment with me. If I -- I do. Mr. Waespi forecasting

20 your need for it. I can make the indictment available to you, if you'd

21 like to see it.

22 JUDGE MAY: Yes, we should have a copy of the indictment. It

23 should be exhibited.

24 MR. NICE: Very well. Can I get it copied in sufficient numbers

25 and we'll make it available in a few minutes. Or immediately, as you

Page 25176

1 prefer. I've only got one copy now.

2 JUDGE MAY: We'll do it in due course. Let's have some copies

3 when there's time to do it. We will have the copies. We will give it the

4 next tab number, I should think, from 514.

5 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, 514, tab 23.

6 JUDGE MAY: The issue which the Trial Chamber is concerned about,

7 of course, is the way in which it is put. I haven't seen the indictment -

8 no doubt I will have a copy in a moment - but it is for war crimes. No

9 specific numbers are mentioned.

10 MR. NICE: I think not, no.

11 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Nice, in the plea arrangement, wouldn't there

12 have been a specific number?

13 MR. NICE: I'll deal with that, if I may, after the next

14 adjournment, if we get that far, or as soon as possible.

15 JUDGE MAY: Very well. We ought to have it clarified.

16 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

17 Q. Mr. Erdemovic, there's no dispute over the fact that you

18 personally killed 100 men and participated in the killing of more than a

19 thousand men.

20 A. I never denied the fact that I had done it.

21 Q. As we heard from Mr. Nice, you were charged here for customs of

22 war, not even for murder. Isn't that right, Mr. Erdemovic? Violations of

23 the laws and customs of war?

24 JUDGE MAY: I don't know if the witness can help us with that,

25 which no doubt depends on a legal technicality. What we will do: We've

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Page 25178

1 got the indictment and we'll get the plea agreement in front us as soon as

2 we can so that we have the full --

3 MR. NICE: I have the plea agreement with me now. Perhaps you'll

4 just give me a moment to read it myself and then I'll hand it in when it's

5 convenient.

6 JUDGE MAY: Thank you.

7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well. I can continue. That is

8 the whole point, Mr. May, that this is quite absurd, that you are

9 producing a witness here --

10 JUDGE MAY: No. Don't use words like that. It's quite out of the

11 question. Now, what's your question for the witness?

12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] It is so obvious, but I'll come to

13 my next question.

14 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

15 Q. Mr. Erdemovic, you signed a plea agreement with this so-called

16 Prosecutor's office; is that right? OTP.

17 A. I signed such an agreement which was approved by the Trial

18 Chamber. It was not just an agreement between me and the OTP, and all the

19 Judges had a copy.

20 Q. I don't doubt that they were informed about it.

21 MR. NICE: I think, Your Honour, the Chamber will probably be

22 assisted now rather than later by seeing perhaps paragraphs 11 and 12 of

23 the plea agreement, the document that the accused referred to. And I

24 think this probably encapsulates the overall position of the parties at

25 trial, although the document can be read in full.

Page 25179

1 JUDGE MAY: Just one moment while we read this.

2 Yes. The agreement, which we'll exhibit in a moment, states that

3 the witness acknowledges that he did shoot and kill and did participate

4 with other members of his unit and soldiers from another unit in the

5 shooting and killing of unarmed Bosnian men, and the summary executions

6 resulted in the deaths of hundreds of Bosnian Muslim male civilians,

7 although it's acknowledged that it's not possible on the evidence to

8 determine how many persons he actually killed.

9 I read that for the point of view of the record, but we've heard

10 the witness's evidence in front of us today as to the numbers involved.

11 Yes. We'll get a number for that. Next tab number, please.

12 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honour, Prosecution Exhibit 514, tab 24.

13 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Milosevic.

14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Since you have quoted a part of this

15 agreement, I would like to draw attention to a part of the agreement which

16 is headed "Obligations of the Prosecution," and it says that the

17 Prosecution will withdraw the alternative charges from the indictment.

18 That is point 1, crimes against humanity, punishable under 5(A), murder of

19 the Statute of the International Tribunal, and will propose to the Trial

20 Chamber to reject that paragraph when sentencing.

21 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

22 Q. So, Mr. Erdemovic, in your agreement this so-called Prosecution,

23 though you said that you had killed more than a hundred men, withdrew the

24 charge of murder. What do you think were the reasons for this?

25 JUDGE MAY: It's not for him to say. That's for the Prosecution

Page 25180

1 to say.

2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well, Mr. May. I think it's up

3 to you too probably, because it is quite unbelievable that you should call

4 such a witness here who, on the basis of an agreement --

5 JUDGE MAY: Confine yourself to questions.

6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well, Mr. May. I will confine

7 myself to questions, though it's almost superfluous to engage in that

8 exercise.

9 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

10 Q. You even stated that the facts and allegations in paragraphs 1 to

11 15 of the indictment of the 22nd of May, 1996, would have been proven

12 beyond any reasonable doubt. So you knew what would have been proven,

13 didn't you?

14 A. I don't understand what you're talking about. I don't understand.

15 You're just reading a part of something that I cannot understand.

16 Q. I am talking about this agreement.

17 A. The agreement was made eight years ago, and I now cannot remember

18 all the details of that agreement. I had a lawyer at the time who was

19 present.

20 Q. I'm quoting from this the agreement, paragraph 7: "Drazen

21 Erdemovic also acknowledges that he realises that he would be found guilty

22 of crimes against humanity, Article 5 (A) of the Statute of the

23 International Tribunal and all the mentioned elements would have been

24 proven beyond any reasonable doubt."

25 So I'm quoting from your own agreement, an agreement that you

Page 25181

1 engaged in with the Prosecution. Is that right or not? You knew what

2 would have been proven and what would have not.

3 A. I just know what I said, what happened where, and that the

4 Prosecution had the evidence. They showed them photographs. I had

5 nothing more to say.

6 Q. Tell me, how much time did you spend in prison altogether for all

7 these acts you were charged with and condemned for?

8 A. I can't remember.

9 Q. You didn't even spend a full five years, did you?

10 A. No. But that wasn't a decision taken by the Prosecution to

11 release me. In fact, the Prosecution opposed my early release from

12 prison, but the President of the Tribunal, Judge McDonald, decided that I

13 should be released earlier.

14 Q. And the Prosecution agreed that for a hundred men killed you be

15 sentenced to a term of five years; is that right?

16 A. If that is what it says there, it is right.

17 Q. Isn't it quite clear to everyone that for such a mass execution

18 you received five years only on condition that you accuse others? Is that

19 right? It's not a problem -- the problem is not your testimony, the

20 problem is the lies.

21 A. Lies about what? What?

22 Q. Saying that this had been done following orders from the Main

23 Staff of the army of Republika Srpska. That is what you're alleging.

24 What I am alleging and what I know is that in order to organise anything

25 like that, the authorities had to know about it. My unit, we or I, could

Page 25182

1 not have provided all the buses and all these other things. It would be

2 quite clear to anyone that someone very high up was behind it.

3 JUDGE MAY: You can get a translation for that.

4 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter didn't hear it.

5 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Repeat it, Mr. Milosevic.

6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I don't know what was not

7 translated. I asked, "And what was behind this agreement then?"

8 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

9 Q. What was the reason, in your opinion, for you to be forgiven --

10 JUDGE MAY: No. He can't answer that. The witness can't answer

11 that.

12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] This agreement between this

13 so-called Prosecution and Drazen Erdemovic, has it been admitted as an

14 exhibit?

15 JUDGE MAY: Yes.

16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] In that case, I don't have to tender

17 it. Very well.

18 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I am afraid that

19 something was not quite clear. Maybe the question wasn't translated, that

20 is, whether he always spoke the truth as to who issued the order for this

21 to be done. I think that remained open.

22 JUDGE MAY: Yes. We will clarify it.

23 Mr. Erdemovic, have you told us the truth in your evidence today?

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

25 JUDGE MAY: In particular, have you told us the truth insofar as

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Page 25184

1 you know it as to who ordered these executions?

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I always said who gave orders to me.

3 I don't know who gave orders to my officers. I always talked about the

4 commanding officer of my unit and who gave me orders that day on the farm.

5 I never mentioned any other persons.

6 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Again there is no translation.

7 JUDGE MAY: Well, there is now. Yes.

8 Yes, Mr. Milosevic.

9 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

10 Q. All right. It was my understanding on the basis of what you were

11 saying here today that you were given orders by a member of your unit,

12 Brano Grujic; is that right?

13 A. No, that's not right. His name is Brano Gojkovic.

14 Q. Gojkovic. All right. I made a mistake when I noted the name.

15 He's a member of your unit; right?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. And you also claim that he was ordered to do so, as far as I can

18 see from this criminal report, by some unidentified lieutenant colonel of

19 the army of Republika Srpska, and you don't know who he is and where he's

20 from except for the fact that you assume, as far as I can see, that he's

21 from the Drina Corps. That was your explanation; is that right?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Did you belong to the Drina Corps?

24 A. No, we did not.

25 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

Page 25185

1 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

2 Q. An unidentified lieutenant colonel from the Drina Corps comes and

3 orders you to kill a thousand persons and you carry out that order. Is

4 that what you're trying to say? Can a normal person do that?

5 A. I did not say that he came. I said that Brano and Aleksandar

6 Cvetkovic, probably on Pelemis's orders, went and found this lieutenant

7 colonel in Zvornik. He didn't come to see us. Brano Gojkovic and

8 Aleksandar Cvetkovic went to Zvornik to a reception area, and they went

9 out of there with this lieutenant colonel and two military policemen.

10 Q. All right. As far as I understand this, the other side justified

11 to the public your five-year sentence by the fact that you had been forced

12 to do certain things; is that right?

13 JUDGE MAY: He can't speak for the other side, as you call them,

14 the Prosecution. It's not for him to speak for the Prosecution.

15 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

16 Q. You had access to the media all the time, access to information

17 too. You could have said when you were arrested in Yugoslavia that you

18 were forced or that you were not forced. I did not notice any of that in

19 these documents that we've exhibited here.

20 A. I always said that I had received orders to do so. Had this not

21 been my orders, I never would have harmed anyone.

22 Q. All right. Let's just take a look -- let's first clarify a few

23 matters. When you joined the army of Republika Srpska, you reported to

24 the military department in Bijeljina; is that right?

25 A. Yes.

Page 25186

1 Q. And then you were in this 10th Sabotage Detachment and you say

2 that this was a unit that reconnoitred in the territory held by the army

3 of Bosnia-Herzegovina, in certain parts of the territory held by them; is

4 that right?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. What was the ethnic composition of this unit of yours, this

7 detachment of yours? On the basis of what you've been saying here, it was

8 my understanding that it was a multi-ethnic detachment.

9 A. Yes. At first when this unit was established, there were only

10 Croats there, one Muslim, and one Slovene. These Croats helped the Serbs

11 to get out of Tuzla, to territory held by the army of Republika Srpska.

12 Afterwards, in October, the unit expanded and then it was joined by Serbs

13 too who came from all parts of Republika Srpska.

14 Q. All right. When we talk about these events, I have in my hands

15 here part of the transcript from your testimony.

16 It doesn't have an ERN number, Mr. May. It says IT-951861,

17 IT-9995861. Mr. Harmon is putting the questions.

18 JUDGE MAY: It should have a page number. If it's a transcript,

19 it should have a page number. It may be at the top right of the page.

20 You can refer us to that, please. The top right of the page.

21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Unfortunately, it only says

22 transcript up there because this is a translation into the Serbian

23 language. And I wish to go back to certain things that Mr. Erdemovic

24 alleged here. I just want to quote that.

25 JUDGE MAY: Just help us with this. How far is it into the

Page 25187

1 transcript?

2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] What I have here is page 1, 2, 3 up

3 to -- up to 16, but I can let the registrar have a look. There is no

4 number anywhere.

5 I'm going to ask about these facts that I shall be citing from

6 here.

7 JUDGE MAY: Yes, but the witness should have the opportunity of

8 seeing what it is you're reading from. Can we get a transcript --

9 MR. NICE: I think I have an English transcript of what it is the

10 accused is referring to, but unless I can hear his first citation, or

11 quotation, I can't really get us on track, but then I probably can.

12 JUDGE MAY: Yes. It's important that the witness also gets on

13 track.

14 MR. NICE: It's the 5th of July, 1996. Let me first of all check

15 that we're on the same document.

16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] That's right. That's right. And

17 then, number 1, it says Mr. Harmon: Our next witness is Mr. Erdemovic.

18 And then it says Drazen Erdemovic called. And then further on he takes

19 the solemn declaration, and then on the next page some questions are put

20 to him. I'm not going to dwell on all of that now. The question:

21 Q. Mr. Erdemovic, on the 10th of July did your

22 detachment receive orders to take part in an action of the Bosnian Serbs

23 against Srebrenica?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. What kind of orders did you receive?

Page 25188

1 A. We came to the military barracks for our regular

2 duties, and so on and so forth.

3 JUDGE MAY: Let the witness -- do we have a copy in B/C/S for the

4 witness?

5 MR. NICE: Yes. There is copy in B/C/S I think being handed to

6 the witness now. I haven't yet found the reference to the 10th of -- yes,

7 I have. I've found that.

8 JUDGE MAY: What page is that?

9 MR. NICE: It's about three different page numbers. It's page 26,

10 but this is reverse page numbering. I can simply lay this on the overhead

11 projector, if that will help.

12 JUDGE MAY: It may not. You referred to the 5th of July, 1996.

13 The date of the hearing I have is the 22nd of May, 2000.

14 MR. NICE: No. This one is, I think, the sentencing hearing, or a

15 hearing, and it's the 5th of July, 1996. And I have it without -- it's a

16 filing and it comes without ERN page numbers, but it does have filing page

17 numbers which run reverse order, starting at page 29.

18 JUDGE MAY: Well, we're simply wasting time. Let's go on with the

19 questions and we'll see how we get on.

20 Yes, Mr. Milosevic, what is the question?

21 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

22 Q. Well, I'm just going to quote this. The question says:

23 Q. Let's go back a bit. Did you receive orders in

24 relation to what you were supposed to do with the civilians that you find

25 in Srebrenica?

Page 25189

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Page 25190

1 Answer. This is your answer:

2 A. We were told explicitly not to touch the civilians.

3 Is that right, Mr. Erdemovic?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Who said that to you? And then your answer is:

6 A. Milorad Pelemis.

7 Q. And were these orders taken out vis-a-vis this

8 person who was 30 years old?

9 A. No. This Lieutenant Pelemis ordered a man to kill

10 this man.

11 Q. Who gave this order? Who was this order given to?

12 And then you say that this man's name was Zoran.

13 However, the question pertains to what is on the page -- on this

14 page, a bit earlier on. You spoke about it earlier today as well. You

15 said that you saw about 200 civilians when you came to town, is that

16 right, and that these were mostly elderly people?

17 A. I said today, and I've always said all along, that we came across

18 some civilians, and we told them to walk in front of us so that they would

19 not get killed and that we would take them to the football stadium because

20 that's what we were told to do.

21 Q. Perhaps I did not hear that and perhaps it was misinterpreted here

22 that you said that there were about 200 of them. Is that what you said?

23 JUDGE MAY: He did say that. That's my recollection.

24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right. All right. Precisely.

25 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Page 25191

1 Q. So please, I'm very much interested in this, because you showed a

2 picture here of General Mladic. And anybody can recognise him, by the

3 way.

4 Further on, on the next page of this transcript, you say: "Later

5 on that same morning, Mr. Erdemovic, did you have occasion to see General

6 Mladic in Srebrenica?"

7 Or, rather, this is the question that is being put to you. I'm

8 reading the transcript. Your answer:

9 A. Yes. I received orders from the commander to go

10 back to the beginning of town where we had entered it and that I should

11 wait there, myself and two friends. When General Mladic passes there, I'm

12 supposed to report to Mr. Pelemis to say that he had passed there. That's

13 what I did when General Mladic passed there.

14 So your commander dispatched you to the entrance into the town

15 just to let him know whether General Mladic had passed there or not; is

16 that right?

17 A. No, that's not right. I said that our commander sent us to

18 establish a checkpoint at the other end of town from where we entered town

19 and we should stay there and we should let him know when General Mladic

20 passes there in order to provide security for that part of town.

21 Q. I'm asking you this because I wish to clarify this and that is why

22 I'm reading the transcript, because it says here: I received orders to go

23 back to the entrance where we had entered and to let Lieutenant Pelemis

24 know when General Mladic passes there that he did pass, and that is indeed

25 what I did when General Mladic passed there. That is to say, we let them

Page 25192

1 know that he had passed.

2 And then you were asked: Did Lieutenant Pelemis talk to Mladic or

3 did he do anything else in relation to General Mladic?

4 And your answer is: I really don't know because I was not present

5 when they met, and I don't know whether they met at all.

6 Is that right? Is that the way you put it there?

7 A. Yes, that's right.

8 Q. So in relation to Mladic, you were just supposed to let your

9 commander know that he had passed there. You do not know whether they met

10 at all; is that right? That's what is written here.

11 A. That's right. That's what I said all along.

12 Q. And then on the same page he asks you: Mr. Erdemovic, I would now

13 like to draw your attention to the 16th of July and ask you whether you

14 and other soldiers received orders to take part in a special assignment.

15 Answer. You say: I was not personally told of any such

16 instructions but the commander of the group had probably received some

17 kind of orders with regard to this assignment. And then you say that you

18 received orders from Brane Grujic; is that right?

19 A. No, not Brane Grujic, Brano Gojkovic.

20 Q. I apologise to Brane Grujic if there is a person by that name.

21 There are many persons who have similar names.

22 And tell me now, when did this start on the Pilica farm on the

23 16th of July? At what time? When did the first buses come, according to

24 your testimony?

25 A. As far as I could tell, I don't know. I don't even remember

Page 25193

1 whether I had a watch, and I wasn't looking at any watch. It could have

2 been in the morning between 10.00 and 11.00.

3 Q. Between 10.00 and 11.00.

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. And you kept killing until the afternoon, right?

6 A. Are you referring to me personally or us?

7 Q. You personally and the remaining seven that you mentioned.

8 A. Yes, until the men from Bratunac came.

9 Q. You say that the men from Bratunac came only after 2.00 p.m.

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. So from 1000 to 1400 hours you were doing the killing. Is that

12 what you're saying?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And now I'm interested in something else. This is on page 12 of

15 what I have here as the transcript, the one that I've been quoting from.

16 It says: "What was the position the other members who took part in the

17 killing?" And you say: "Well, the position of individual members was

18 almost like my own, that this should not be done. Well, I don't know.

19 And some were doing it with a kind of vengeance."

20 And then you're further asked whether you can say a bit more about

21 it. Answer, you say: "This was a man who allegedly was saying that he

22 said that the Bosnian Muslims had killed his brother who was 17 years old,

23 and he said that he killed, that he wanted revenge, and that on that day

24 he killed 250 of those Muslims from Srebrenica."

25 Well, tell me now, this is what you said, what this transcript

Page 25194

1 says, what I quoted from. And I have quoted your words verbatim. Is that

2 right?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. But you did not mention -- you did not mention that among you in

5 that group of yours, the group of seven, there was anyone from Srebrenica

6 whose brother had been killed by the Muslims.

7 A. This person was not from Srebrenica. He was from Bosanska

8 Krajina, from somewhere in Bosanska Krajina.

9 Q. He was a member of your unit?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And he was killing out of revenge, according to what you've said

12 here.

13 A. That's what he said.

14 Q. All right. Did somebody perhaps give him orders to kill out of

15 revenge?

16 A. I cannot think for him. I cannot know what went through his head

17 at the time. That's what he was saying.

18 Q. All right. If you were ordered to do that, how does that fit in?

19 You say that this man was saying that he was killing out of revenge

20 because his brother had been killed by them. Make up your mind. What was

21 the reason for doing such a senseless thing? Do you have any explanation?

22 A. I have no explanation.

23 MR. NICE: Your Honour, I think the suggestion that the witness is

24 in some way being inconsistent in his answers is wholly unsupported by the

25 questions put and really unfair. I'm not sure if you've got the passage

Page 25195

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Page 25196

1 that he's quoting from.

2 JUDGE MAY: We don't have the transcript.

3 MR. NICE: I have the transcript. I have one copy of it and I

4 managed to find it. Can I at least place this passage on the overhead

5 projector or hand it up to you.

6 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Yes. If that could go on the overhead

7 projector, please.

8 MR. NICE: We can see how it was that the witness came to give the

9 answers that the accused is relying on.

10 "What was the attitude of other members of your particular unit

11 who participated in the executions?" led to the answer, "Well, the

12 attitude of individual members was almost like mine, that this should not

13 be done. I do not know. Whereas individuals did what they did with some

14 kind of revenge."

15 Asked if there were those who boasted, he said there were. "Can

16 you expand?" He then gave the account of the person who said that the

17 Bosnian Muslims had killed his brother who was 17.

18 That's the way it emerged and there is no question of any

19 inconsistency on the part of the witness.

20 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Yes, Mr. Milosevic. That can come back, please.

21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes. That's exactly what I had

22 quoted. I was only quoting from the transcript. The reply reads

23 literally: "There was man who allegedly said -- that is what he said,

24 that allegedly Bosnian Muslims had killed his brother who was 17, and he

25 said that he had killed, that he wanted to take his revenge, and that on

Page 25197

1 that day he had killed 250 Muslims from Srebrenica."

2 JUDGE MAY: Yes, we have the point.

3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] That is a quotation from that

4 passage, and I was asking the witness about this statement of his.

5 JUDGE MAY: I'm switching the microphone off. We have the point.

6 We've heard both sides. We're going to adjourn now.

7 Before we do, I'm going to give a short ruling in relation to the

8 next witness, Colm Doyle. We have a motion for part of his statement to be

9 admitted under Rule 92 bis. We will admit that part. The witness will in

10 fact be giving evidence live on the most substantial parts of his evidence

11 and he will be available for cross-examination.

12 We will adjourn now for 20 minutes.

13 Yes.

14 MR. NICE: I'm grateful. Would you like the other transcript

15 copied and available after the break?

16 JUDGE MAY: Yes, we'd better have it.

17 MR. NICE: And I'm helpfully reminded that the motion for

18 consideration of the plea agreement was a document under seal in another

19 Chamber. Now, the plea agreement itself, it may be the motion's been

20 provided to the accused under Rule 68. I'll check on whether steps were

21 taken with that other Chamber. That was certainly the position at the

22 time.

23 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Very well.

24 MR. NICE: Thank you.

25 JUDGE MAY: We will adjourn. Twenty minutes.

Page 25198

1 --- Recess taken at 12.18 p.m.

2 --- On resuming at 12.44 p.m.

3 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Milosevic. You've got 50 minutes left if you

4 want it, if you require it.

5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May, I think you should give me

6 more time, because I quite clearly cannot complete my cross-examination by

7 the end of the day today.

8 JUDGE MAY: You must finish by the end of the day today because

9 the witness cannot be here for longer. But let's get on with it now.

10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] In that case, I must protest

11 categorically, because this is a witness who according to his own

12 admission killed more than a hundred people. He is attributing this to

13 various backgrounds, and there's not enough time for him to be

14 cross-examined. He cannot remain. I can't understand that explanation,

15 and I don't think the public will either.

16 JUDGE MAY: You have heard the ruling. It takes account of his

17 evidence. Now, so far you haven't challenged very much of it. That is

18 the crucial point, not the witness's background but how much of his

19 evidence that you actually challenge. So far there's been very little.

20 So 50 minutes should be more than adequate. But let's not waste time by

21 discussing it further.

22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I assume that it is quite clear to

23 you and to everybody else that neither Serbia nor I have anything to do

24 with these events in Srebrenica, Mr. May. But if that is not challenging

25 the testimony, then that's up to you, as everything else is.

Page 25199

1 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

2 Q. Tell me, Mr. Erdemovic, under whose command was your 10th Sabotage

3 Detachment?

4 A. Under the command of the Main Staff, the department for security

5 and safety and intelligence.

6 Q. Very well. Tell me, did anyone from that department or from the

7 Main Staff order you to kill those people?

8 A. I said earlier on, and I will repeat, I personally was ordered to

9 do it by Brano Gojkovic.

10 Q. But you mentioned an unknown lieutenant colonel who gave such

11 orders to Brano Gojkovic.

12 A. Yes, but I am saying as far as I'm concerned who gave me the

13 order, but I do also know that this lieutenant colonel couldn't give me --

14 us such an order if Pelemis had not allowed it or somebody from the Main

15 Staff.

16 Q. I understand Pelemis was a commander of your detachment. He was

17 not from the Main Staff. Are you saying that a lieutenant colonel that

18 you don't know was a mediator between Pelemis and his unit?

19 A. I don't know who this lieutenant colonel was, whether he was a

20 mediator or whether he asked our unit or anything like that. I can't

21 explain that because I don't know that.

22 Q. Had you -- have you heard of Jugoslav Petrusic?

23 A. I heard of Jugoslav Petrusic while I was in the prison here.

24 Q. What did you hear about him?

25 A. I read this in the newspapers, in the Vesti from Belgrade, that he

Page 25200

1 and Pelemis and certain individuals from my unit were in Zaire.

2 Q. Do you know anything about what they did in Zaire?

3 A. I don't know anything except what I read in the newspapers.

4 Q. Do you believe that the Main Staff of the army of Republika Srpska

5 had sent them to Zaire?

6 A. I don't know that, and I don't believe it.

7 Q. But since you were a member of the army of Republika Srpska, as

8 you claim, I assume that you must have been aware of orders coming from

9 the Main Staff of the army of Republika Srpska in connection with the

10 events of which you were a participant. Let me read to you that on the

11 9th of July, 1995, there's an urgent telegram. It has been registered

12 under the 9th of July, et cetera, to the president of Republika Srpska for

13 his information to the command -- forward command post of the Drina Corps,

14 General Gvero, General Krstic, and the command of the Drina Corps around

15 -- regarding combat activities around Srebrenica. And it says: "The

16 president of Republika Srpska has been informed that units are

17 successfully carrying out operations around Srebrenica and that they have

18 achieved results, putting them in a position to be able to capture the

19 town of Srebrenica itself." So this is dated the 9th of July. "The

20 president of the republic is satisfied with the results of the combat

21 activities around Srebrenica and agrees that those activities be continued

22 to take control of Srebrenica, disarm Muslim terrorist bands, and totally

23 demilitarise the Srebrenica enclave. The president of the Republika

24 Srpska has ordered that in continuation of combat operations, full

25 protection be provided to members of UNPROFOR and the Muslim civilian

Page 25201

1 population and that their security be guaranteed if they cross into the

2 territory of Republika Srpska pursuant to the order of the president of

3 Republika Srpska, issue orders to all combat units participating in combat

4 operations around Srebrenica to provide maximum protection and security

5 for all members of UNPROFOR and the civilian Muslim population.

6 "Order subordinate units to refrain from destruction of civilian

7 targets unless they are forced to do so due to strong resistance by the

8 enemy, prohibit the torching of housing facilities, and treat the civilian

9 population and prisoners of war in accordance with the Geneva Conventions

10 of the 12th of August, 1949." Signed by the assistant of the commander of

11 the Main Staff, Major General Zdravko Tolimir.

12 So this order says that all subordinate units must be informed of

13 these instructions.

14 Were such instructions given to you or were you informed about

15 them, the instructions of the Main Staff?

16 A. I said during the examination-in-chief that Pelemis said that we

17 mustn't shoot civilians and that civilians should be advised to go to the

18 football stadium in Srebrenica. That is what I was told.

19 Q. You were not conveyed verbatim this order that arrived on the 9th

20 of July during the fighting around Srebrenica and when there was an

21 indication that the town could be captured?

22 A. I don't know anything about what you just read out.

23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could this be exhibited, please,

24 Mr. May?

25 JUDGE MAY: Just a moment. Let the Prosecution see this document.

Page 25202

1 Have you -- having heard it read out do you have any objection or would

2 you like to have a look at it first?

3 MR. NICE: Have a look at it first.

4 JUDGE MAY: Yes. If you'd hand it to the Prosecution, please.

5 Yes, Mr. Milosevic.

6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] There's a stamp and the number under

7 which it is registered. You can see that in the rectangular stamp, that

8 it was received and registered under a certain number.

9 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

10 Q. Mr. Erdemovic, to follow on to this question, I gather that your

11 answer was that this order was not conveyed to you or it was not shown to

12 you apart from what Petrusic told you, that civilians should not be

13 killed.

14 A. The order that you read was not conveyed to me.

15 Q. Are you aware of the decision of the president of the Republika

16 Srpska taken on the 11th of July, 1995? I leave out the preamble which

17 refers to a certain paragraph of the constitution of Republika Srpska. It

18 is the decision on the appointment of a civilian commissioner for the

19 municipality of Serbian Srebrenica. I will leave out parts that are not

20 of significance.

21 There is reference to providing conditions for the efficient

22 functioning of the authorities. In point 3, it says: "In cooperation

23 with the Ministry of the Interior, set up a public security station, the

24 prime task of which is to protect the personal and public property of

25 citizens and prevent any criminal activity."

Page 25203

1 Point 4: "The commissioner will make sure that the civilian and

2 military bodies --" that all prisoners, all people who took part in combat

3 against the forces of Republika Srpska should be treated as prisoners of

4 war. The decisions of the commissioner are binding for all organs of

5 authority in Srebrenica municipality. So those who took part in battles

6 to be treated as prisoners of war, and the civilian population has the

7 right to choose where it will reside, whether it will stay on or move out.

8 Are you aware of this decision taken on the 11th of July?

9 A. No.

10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could this also be admitted into

11 evidence, please.

12 JUDGE MAY: Show it to the Prosecution, please.

13 MR. NICE: Your Honour, I don't know where these particular

14 documents come from. The versions being produced I don't think come from

15 us. If we can track them down as documents coming from us then there will

16 be no problem at all about allowing them to be produced other than simply

17 being marked for identification, otherwise, I would be grateful to know

18 where the origin is, but I'm looking into it.

19 JUDGE MAY: Yes. What is the source of these documents, please,

20 Mr. Milosevic?

21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The source of these documents,

22 Mr. May, is the archives of Republika Srpska. All those documents were

23 published as a collector of documents, that is containing orders from the

24 wartime period, orders issued at various levels of Republika Srpska. And

25 this one obviously has to do with the question of Srebrenica.

Page 25204

1 JUDGE MAY: Very well. The simplest course may be this, that we

2 will mark them for identification while the Prosecution make their

3 investigations, and we will begin with the first one, which I will hand to

4 the registrar now.

5 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honour, the telegram dated the 9th of July,

6 1995, will be marked for identification as Defence Exhibit 171.

7 Your Honour, the second decision, dated the 11th of July, 1995,

8 will be marked for identification as Defence Exhibit 172.

9 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Milosevic.

10 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

11 Q. Mr. Erdemovic, regarding your own unit and some other units that

12 you were asked about by Mr. Nice, you mentioned the Panthers, Crni, and

13 some other units, and you say that they were -- that there were members of

14 the Bijeljina corps, there were some refugees from the environs of Tuzla.

15 They wore red and green berets, et cetera. And in answer to a question by

16 Mr. Nice who gave them orders, you answered that you assumed that they

17 received them from the Main Staff; is that right?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. On what basis do you assume that you -- your unit received orders

20 from the Main Staff?

21 A. I don't assume that my unit received directives from the Main

22 Staff; I know that my unit received directives from them. I know that for

23 certain.

24 Q. On the basis of what?

25 A. Because I know.

Page 25205

1 Q. Since I assume you know, I'm asking you on what basis you know.

2 A. Because we were a unit that belonged to the security service

3 attached to the Main Staff, and I know that all orders that reached us

4 came from the intelligence officer whose name was Petar Salapura.

5 Q. Mr. Nice asked you whether you had any knowledge regarding the

6 links between your 10th Sabotage Detachment and the French intelligence

7 service, and you said you had none; is that right?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. And who sent those men from the 10th Sabotage Detachment to Zaire?

10 A. I can't answer that question because I learnt about it while I was

11 in prison here.

12 Q. How many men in all were there in the 10th Sabotage Detachment?

13 The number probably varied, but let's say during the time period you're

14 testifying about, how many men did it number?

15 A. Between 50 and 60 persons, I think.

16 Q. Did you receive a salary?

17 A. We did. Sometimes we didn't.

18 Q. What was your salary?

19 A. I can't remember now.

20 Q. Not even roughly?

21 A. Not even roughly.

22 Q. Quite incredible that you can't even remember how big your salary

23 was.

24 A. It's not quite incredible. I can't remember, and I don't want to

25 say something and I don't want it to turn out later on that I said

Page 25206

1 something that was wrong. I don't know.

2 Q. And the fact that you were given the assignment to see when

3 General Mladic would pass, doesn't that show that General Mladic had

4 nothing to do with your detachment?

5 A. That's not correct.

6 Q. All right. Tell me, have you ever heard of Philippe Rondeau or

7 Patrick Foret? Have you ever heard these names?

8 A. No.

9 Q. In addition to Pelemis, have you heard of a certain Avdo and Amir,

10 nicknamed Brada, from Tuzla? Alija Amerhodzic from Tuzla? Have you heard

11 of them?

12 A. I can't remember.

13 Q. Did you ever hear of that unit of yours having had some kind of a

14 company that was involved in arms trade and that it was even registered in

15 Sofia in Bulgaria? Do you know anything about that?

16 A. No.

17 Q. No. Do you know anything about a base of that unit of yours in

18 Doboj?

19 A. I don't know. I know that we did carry out some tasks in the

20 territory of Doboj and that mountain there, I've forgotten its name --

21 Ozren. I think that there were intelligence people out there, and we went

22 to see them when we were given such tasks, and they were supposed to give

23 us information. I know that.

24 Q. What kind of tasks were you given?

25 A. We would go behind the positions of the army of

Page 25207

1 Bosnia-Herzegovina.

2 Q. What did you do behind the positions of the army of

3 Bosnia-Herzegovina?

4 A. Reconnoiter.

5 Q. Just reconnoiter?

6 A. We reconnoitered. Once we were supposed to destroy a bridge that

7 was on the Krivaja river. That's what I know. That's where I was. And I

8 don't know what else took place.

9 Q. Do you know the name Branko Vlaco?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Explain. In connection with what?

12 A. Quite a few times he came from Serbia with Pelemis.

13 Q. Who was he in contact with?

14 A. As far as I know, with Pelemis.

15 Q. And do you know of a certain Mihajl Vandrain [phoen], also known

16 as Michel?

17 A. No.

18 Q. You've never heard of him?

19 A. No, I haven't.

20 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May, could we just briefly have

21 a look at a few clips from a tape that I gave your technical people here?

22 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

23 Q. You know Savanovic, don't you? You mentioned him among the

24 persons who took part.

25 A. Yes.

Page 25208

1 JUDGE MAY: The legal officer, please.

2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Just a few brief clips from a

3 particular tape. And I'd like to put questions to the witness about it

4 subsequently.

5 I can barely see a thing, and there doesn't seem to be any sound

6 either.

7 [Videotape played]

8 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

9 Q. Is this Savanovic?

10 A. I don't see a thing in front of me.

11 JUDGE MAY: See if you lean forward. If you lean forward,

12 Mr. Erdemovic, see if you can see anything. You might be able to see a

13 bit more. It's very difficult.

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The answer is no, this is not

15 Savanovic. I don't know, I've never seen the man.

16 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

17 Q. All right. You say that you've never seen this man?

18 A. No.

19 Q. When we get a better copy of this tape, we'll have a look, but it

20 is claimed here that the massacre was agreed upon because it was the end

21 of the war and that was the way in which Serbs could be accused of

22 genocide.

23 JUDGE MAY: We don't know who the man is. The witness doesn't

24 recognise him. So what you have there is certainly not evidence. Now,

25 let's move on.

Page 25209

1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well, Mr. May.

2 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

3 Q. Do you know that units of Naser Oric, a few days before Srebrenica

4 was taken, left Srebrenica altogether?

5 A. No, I did not know that all units had left. But later on I heard

6 that Naser Oric was not in Srebrenica and that his non-commissioned

7 officers and commissioned officers weren't there either, that they were at

8 a meeting in Tuzla. Now, how correct this is I cannot say, but I could

9 see that in Srebrenica there was no resistance so I think there was no

10 military in Srebrenica.

11 Q. Do you know when Naser Oric left Srebrenica with his army?

12 A. I don't know that.

13 Q. Did you hear anything about some kind of agreement being reached

14 concerning his departure from Srebrenica?

15 A. No.

16 Q. Since you were in the area at the time and since this has to do

17 with the activity of your 10th Sabotage Detachment, have you ever heard of

18 a meeting between General Morillon and some other representatives of

19 anybody, the Muslims or your 10th Sabotage Detachment, before the attack

20 in Srebrenica?

21 A. As far as I know, no.

22 Q. All right. And do you know that on the 10th of July, 1995, in

23 Zvornik, in the house of the former president of the municipality, a

24 Muslim, a meeting was held with some representatives of the Muslim

25 government and that General Janvier was there, that it was being discussed

Page 25210

1 there that Srebrenica could fall without any fighting and that French and

2 Belgium units could withdraw before that and that the corridor should be

3 opened for the withdrawal of Naser Oric's forces, and also that some money

4 was mentioned that was supposed to be paid to your detachment for doing

5 this dirty work?

6 A. This is the first time I hear of this.

7 Q. Do you know anything about any kind of money or gold and things

8 like that?

9 A. I did hear about that.

10 Q. What did you hear about that?

11 A. I heard that afterwards, Pelemis and individuals from Vlasenica

12 shared some money and that they found some gold. Now, whether that's true

13 or something, I don't know, but I heard about this while I was still at

14 the military medical hospital.

15 Q. Who did they get this money from that you say they shared?

16 A. I don't know.

17 Q. All right. I want to remind you that you said to the journalist

18 of ABC news, Vanesa Vasic-Janekovic, a statement that the massacre in

19 Pilica took place on account of money, and you even said that somebody

20 promised Pelemis 12 kilogrammes of gold for carrying out this massacre in

21 Pilica.

22 A. I said -- I said what I said to you just now, that I heard that

23 later, while I was in hospital. I don't know this exactly, that I heard

24 all of that.

25 Q. I have this here, ERN 0305056, but I'm not going to quote that.

Page 25211

1 I'm going to quote page 8. I'm going to read something from page 8. It's

2 a statement made here. Vanesa Vasic-Janekovic was a witness here on the

3 8th of March, 1996, and she made this statement to Peter Nicholson. She

4 said that she asked Erdemovic about his past service, about his past in

5 general, his activities. He also showed her his contract that was

6 videotaped, together with his military ID and documents from the hospital.

7 This is on page 8. And then also she says that somebody explained that

8 somebody had promised Pelemis 12 kilogrammes of gold for the massacre in

9 Pilica an that Pelemis was aware of this promise before the massacre had

10 taken place.

11 And at the end of the paragraph it says that Erdemovic and

12 Kremenovic said that from a jeweller in Bijeljina they heard that Pelemis

13 had ordered a thick gold chain of the best quality with very valuable

14 workmanship.

15 So let me skip a paragraph now. It says Kremenovic said Salapura

16 communicated directly with General Mladic but he acted as if he did not

17 have to receive any orders from him because from time to time, he became

18 -- he behaved as if he were his equal.

19 JUDGE MAY: Very well. Let the witness answer these various

20 allegations.

21 Did you meet this particular journalist? Do you remember that,

22 Mr. Erdemovic, or not?

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

24 JUDGE MAY: Did you say that Pelemis -- or it had been explained

25 that somebody had promised Pelemis gold for the massacre?

Page 25212

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. That's what I heard when I was

2 in hospital. I did not know that before. I heard all of these things

3 when I got out of hospital, and I heard that it was correct that some --

4 that somebody said that Pelemis had commissioned such a chain from

5 jeweller Marjanovic. That's why I thought that it was true.

6 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

7 Q. Let me just show you something. It is ERN -- I can't really find

8 my way. This is page 00866 -- 86028. I can't really read the last

9 number. I guess it's a 9. It's quite illegible.

10 You say -- Where did you hear about the killing in Nova Kasaba?

11 A. In Bijeljina. Well, it will be heard at the VMA.

12 At the VMA I heard about this. My wife heard about it when she came to

13 visit me, that Pelemis, Franc Kos, and this Brano, and I don't know who

14 else, because of some kind of gold, that people were killed because of

15 that gold, because of this money, because of all of that. All of that was

16 heard.

17 Q. Well, when did you first hear anything about

18 killings in Nova Kasaba?

19 A. Well, I don't know. In hospital, a few days later.

20 I was wounded. I came to hospital and my wife came and she mentioned some

21 100.000 marks. My wife, when she travelled to Belgrade, travelled with

22 the lover of Milorad Pelemis. I didn't know about that. And this lover

23 said that they had a good time together. Milorad Pelemis's friends from

24 Vlasenica, that they were having a good time in Belgrade and -- in

25 Belgrade hotels and that they bought cars, and that's how I came to this

Page 25213

1 conclusion. And my wife can confirm that she heard about the gold.

2 So what do you know about, this Mr. Erdemovic? Did these people

3 -- were these people killed because the perpetrators were paid to commit

4 this massacre?

5 A. I don't know how to answer that question. I wasn't paid at all,

6 but the persons that I mentioned, I heard that they had done all that, and

7 that is probably all true.

8 Q. And they received the money, and they were your superiors, weren't

9 they?

10 A. Yes, Pelemis and certain individuals from Vlasenica.

11 Q. When you told Vanesa Janekovic that Salapura behaved as if he

12 didn't have to follow orders from Mladic -- is that what you said?

13 A. I didn't say that to Vanesa.

14 Q. I just quoted what Kremenovic said, and this is on page 8 of this

15 translation of Vanessa. 03052963 is the page number. That he was acting

16 as if he didn't have to follow orders from him as he behaved as if they

17 were equals. And you heard that Salapura would do whatever he wanted.

18 A. Yes Kremenovic said that. I didn't say that.

19 Q. This is Vanessa's statement, Vanesa Janekovic's statement. Vlasic

20 Janekovic. Very well.

21 When your wife came to the Military Medical Academy hospital, you

22 heard that the killings were done for money; is that right?

23 A. No. I didn't say that I heard that people were killed for money,

24 nor did my wife say that. She just said that they used some gold to have

25 a good time in Belgrade hotels and shop around. They didn't know -- she

Page 25214

1 didn't know about the killings at the time.

2 Q. As for Stanko Savanovic's statement in connection with the events

3 in Srebrenica, apparently there were contacts with French officers in

4 Zvornik where there was an arrangement made about the surrender of

5 Srebrenica. Do you know anything about that?

6 A. No.

7 Q. And you yourself said that you received explicit orders not to

8 hurt civilians; is that right?

9 A. Yes. We received such an order on the 11th in the morning.

10 Q. From your commander Pelemis; is that right?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And do you know anything at all about a letter sent by Naser Oric

13 to Alija Izetbegovic after the fall of Srebrenica?

14 A. No.

15 Q. You know nothing about it, about the agreement to surrender

16 Srebrenica and the money he received?

17 A. I don't know that.

18 Q. Very well. And do you remember that in 1995 French pilots were

19 captured? Do you remember those pilots?

20 A. I saw that on television, yes.

21 Q. Do you know anything about the role of members of the 10th

22 Sabotage Detachment in concealing those pilots and hiding them even from

23 General Mladic?

24 A. I don't know.

25 Q. And was there a camp of the 10th Sabotage Detachment in Dragosevac

Page 25215

1 near Vlasenica?

2 A. Yes. That is where the Vlasenica platoon was quartered.

3 Q. Then these captured French pilots were apparently concealed in

4 that camp.

5 A. I don't know. I hear that for the first time today.

6 Q. You don't know anything about them being hidden away even from the

7 Main Staff of the army of Republika Srpska?

8 A. I don't know.

9 Q. Do you know that any one of the participants in this crime in

10 Srebrenica was held accountable or investigations conducted against them

11 or put on trial or searched for, except for you?

12 A. I don't know. I can't answer that question. I'm not the person

13 to decide who would be tried, investigated, or where or when.

14 Q. Doesn't it seem to be rather strange that only you who was

15 arrested by the Yugoslav --

16 JUDGE MAY: It's not for the witness to answer that.

17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May, I will prove - I don't have

18 to do that through this witness - what is the background of this and that

19 the French and other intelligence services were involved and that the

20 perpetrators of the crime were promised --

21 JUDGE MAY: We'll hear all about your evidence in due course, but

22 let's finish this witness, please.

23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I can't complete my

24 cross-examination of this witness, but of course it is up to you when you

25 decide to interrupt me, you will do so. I'm quite sure of that.

Page 25216

1 Tell me, please --

2 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Tapuskovic has a point. Yes.

3 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, perhaps you really

4 could consider the possibility of providing some additional time to

5 Mr. Slobodan Milosevic to complete his cross-examination of this witness.

6 I really do not understand the position of the Prosecution for such

7 witnesses who are very important, and this has happened before. But the

8 witness before you has made at least 13 statements that I have reviewed,

9 at least 13 in connection with all these problems, and he participated in

10 a number of trials here, including his own, and I don't see why he should

11 be protected again when he is testifying before you. So I appeal to you

12 to give this matter some thought. Perhaps some additional time could be

13 given for the cross-examination of this witness. I understand that he has

14 a problem with his job.

15 [Trial Chamber confers]

16 JUDGE MAY: Very well. We'll sit until 2.00, and we will then

17 review the position. It depends what time -- use you make of your time,

18 Mr. Milosevic, providing it's not wasted.

19 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

20 Q. Do you know the name Radinko Gajic?

21 A. No, I don't.

22 Q. Radinko Gajic from Kladanj. You don't know him?

23 A. I don't.

24 Q. Branko Vlaco. You know him. Yes?

25 A. Yes.

Page 25217

1 Q. Milorad Pelemis, you also know him.

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Rade Petrovic from Srebrenica? A false passport.

4 A. I don't know him. I read his name in the newspapers, though.

5 Q. Who do you know among the members of your 10th Sabotage Detachment

6 that were engaged in Zaire?

7 A. I can't remember all the names that I read in the papers then. I

8 know Pelemis. I know about -- you just mentioned the name, I've already

9 forgotten it. Jugoslav Petrusic. I knew that they were men from our unit

10 because I saw their pictures in the newspapers.

11 Q. I have here -- since you say you saw pictures in the newspapers, I

12 have a letter addressed to Colonel -- to a colonel, written by hand, from

13 the Ministry of the Interior of France, and it begins with the words "Mon

14 Colonel, The situation in your country is developing quickly." The date

15 is the 7th of February, 1996. "And it is creating turbulence which are

16 fatal for discretion and security linked to our service. Our common plan

17 of cooperation has certainly not been neglected. On the contrary, the

18 evolution of the Muslim factors in Bosnia retains our full attention in

19 spite of TPI and the slanders that are appearing on a daily basis. You're

20 welcome to Paris and we can guarantee safe sojourn if you are given

21 permission to meet with us. Note, Jugo will give you all additional

22 information." Signature illegible, note of the interpreter.

23 JUDGE MAY: Who is this letter written to, Mr. Milosevic?

24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, obviously to Jugoslav

25 Petrusic, who was the liaison with the French service, and he's the one

Page 25218

1 who should provide all the information.

2 JUDGE MAY: The witness knows nothing about this -- witness --

3 wait a moment. Don't interrupt, please.

4 We'll have to consider carefully whether there's any relevance in

5 these letters you're producing. Let us see the letter.

6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Here you are. I think that in the

7 ministry in Paris, if you were to give such instructions, all this could

8 be cleared up. I have already requested that the services who are

9 assisting the side opposite should provide information.

10 JUDGE MAY: What's the relevance of all this? We've got -- let me

11 just summarise what we have. We don't have an addressee for it, it's just

12 described as Colonel. It's dated the 7th of February, 1996. At the

13 moment, I can't see any relevance at all.

14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well, Mr. May.

15 JUDGE MAY: Hand this back to the accused.

16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I shall do my best to make relevance

17 obvious.

18 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

19 Q. Do you know anything about the company DAO Link [phoen]?

20 A. No.

21 Q. Very well, then, I won't show you these bills. I shall keep them

22 for another occasion, together with this letter.

23 Do you know anything at all in connection with the name of Steve

24 Hanke, for instance? Have you heard of that name?

25 A. No.

Page 25219

1 Q. You haven't heard of that name either. Very well.

2 Have you heard of Richard Butler who was an American military

3 analyst and whom the US government lent to this institution here?

4 A. I can't remember.

5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May, I don't have to give this

6 to you. ERO 876762. There's a conversation with Butler in which he says:

7 "I have to point out that in 1995, with respect to Srebrenica, there were

8 no activities of paramilitary formations. All the formations that were

9 involved in the Srebrenica operation were under the command of the army

10 and government of Republika Srpska. We didn't see any units out of their

11 control."

12 And then the Prosecutor -- it says here the Prosecutor. This is

13 -- this was extracted from some newspapers by Mr. Nice or his associates,

14 but obviously it's a transcript of your interview here.

15 The Prosecutor: You reviewed many statements in connection with

16 this case and some witnesses mention Arkan's Tigers and other

17 paramilitaries who were particularly infamous in 1993 and 1994. Did you

18 note the presence of such units?

19 Butler: No. Having analysed the materials, documents and orders

20 and other evidence, I could not prove the presence of any one of these

21 criminal organisations or paramilitary units in Srebrenica in 1995.

22 So, Mr. Erdemovic, who are you talking about when you say that

23 there were some people from the outside in Srebrenica?

24 A. Do you mean what I said this morning, that -- what this person in

25 hospital was saying?

Page 25220

1 Q. Yes. Somebody in hospital explained something to you, apparently,

2 to the effect that he came from a unit, and you yourself say you didn't

3 see anyone from any such unit. So who are you talking about?

4 A. I just heard this person in hospital recounting this. I didn't

5 say that I saw it, nor did I say that I knew that any of them were there

6 for certain. I have nothing more than that to say.

7 He said that he was a member of a unit that belonged to the MUP of

8 Serbia. Those are his words, not mine.

9 Q. In one of these statements, and as Mr. Tapuskovic mentioned a

10 moment ago, you made many, there was a Montenegrin there who apparently

11 said that he was in Srebrenica.

12 A. I said that he was Montenegrin by ethnicity. At least, that is

13 what he said he was.

14 Q. Do you know of a report of the Dutch government, "Srebrenica, a

15 protected area, a reconstruction of the event, the history and

16 consequences of the fall of the safe area"?

17 A. I don't know.

18 Q. It's a rather voluminous report, and we will have an opportunity

19 of looking at it here at a later stage, but I'm going to read paragraph 10

20 to you, and it says: "There are no indications that the action was

21 carried out in concert with Belgrade, either in terms of political or

22 military coordination." That's what the report of the Dutch government

23 says. Does this go against some of the things that you know or not?

24 A. I said this previously, and I'm saying it again: I did not see,

25 and I directly do not know that anybody took part. I just said what this

Page 25221

1 person was saying in hospital.

2 Q. I am not going to keep you any longer with this.

3 Since you say that you haven't heard of Steve Hanke, Patrick

4 Foret, you have not heard of any of these foreign names that I mentioned

5 to you, have you heard of a single foreign name in relation to the

6 activities of your 10th Sabotage Detachment?

7 A. I did not hear of a single one of these names. I did not hear of

8 any foreign names. I just know that in the Vlasenica platoon there were

9 two or three Greeks, persons of Greek ethnicity.

10 Q. All right. You said that there was a number of people you cannot

11 mention from your detachment were in Zaire. Apart from Petrusic, you

12 couldn't mention any other names; is that right? Is that what you're

13 claiming, that you don't know anybody else except for Petrusic from

14 amongst the people who were in Zaire?

15 A. I said I could -- I can't remember any names. I cannot guess now

16 who the people who were in Zaire were.

17 Q. Do you know how many were there?

18 A. I don't know because I read this in the newspapers.

19 Q. Do you know anything about who made sure that they had passports

20 and equipment and everything else needed to go to Zaire? Was it perhaps

21 the Main Staff of the army of Republika Srpska and General Mladic?

22 A. What I read in the newspapers said that they went through France.

23 That's the only thing I read in the newspapers.

24 Q. Did you have a specific clash with this Stanko Savanovic?

25 A. Yes.

Page 25222

1 Q. What was this all?

2 A. I don't know what the date was but this was a night after

3 Srebrenica, in a coffee bar he shot at me and another Muslim, and he also

4 shot at Radoslav Kremenovic.

5 Q. Now did this happen? Why did he shoot you? And this one Muslim

6 you mentioned, he was also a member of the 10th Sabotage Detachment; is

7 that right? Was he?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. And why did he shoot at you and at this Muslim and at Kremenovic?

10 So Savanovic shot the three of you?

11 A. I cannot remember why he shot at us. He knows why he did. I

12 cannot say. Again, I'm saying only the things I know.

13 Q. But you do know that he shot at you. That's what you said

14 yourself now. Why did he shoot at you?

15 JUDGE MAY: He just said he doesn't know. He cannot remember.

16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May, he describes an incident in

17 a coffee bar, obviously where there was a number of members of this

18 so-called 10th Sabotage Detachment that had carried out this crime. So

19 one of these colleagues of his that he, the witness, mentions as one of

20 the perpetrators shoots at three of them, and I'm asking him why. There

21 must have been a reason.

22 JUDGE MAY: This is the way time goes. He just said he doesn't

23 remember. Let's move on.

24 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

25 Q. Were you close to this man Savanovic?

Page 25223

1 A. Yes. He was in my unit.

2 Q. And do you know that the foreigners I mentioned gave him a false

3 passport on the name of Ratko Mandic? Do you know that?

4 A. I don't know that.

5 Q. And do you know about any false passports that members of your

6 unit got from foreigners?

7 JUDGE MAY: What is the relevance of this to this witness's

8 evidence? He says he knows nothing about it and at the moment it seems

9 quite irrelevant whether they had false passports or not.

10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] It is relevant because the witness

11 should know something about these passports and about who issued them,

12 which country, and who can issue false passports. But if he doesn't know

13 anything, and if you claim he doesn't know anything, I'm not going to ask

14 him about it any more.

15 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

16 Q. All right, Mr. Erdemovic. Do you know that members of this group

17 of yours within this 10th Sabotage Detachment smuggled weapons to

18 Albanians in Kosovo?

19 A. Mr. Milosevic, I was in The Hague at the time when the Kosovo

20 conflict took place. I don't know anything about that.

21 Q. All right. Let's go back to the things you know about, then. Is

22 it correct, as far as I managed to understand this on the basis of the

23 information that I have, that the bus drivers who drove the victims to the

24 Pilica farm did not know that they were driving them off to their death,

25 to an execution? They believed that they were taking them for an

Page 25224

1 exchange?

2 A. I cannot give an answer to that because I don't know about that.

3 Q. Unfortunately, I found this in your statement, but it's very hard

4 for me -- here. It's the transcript that was identified by Mr. Nice. On

5 page 12, the question:

6 Q. May I ask you, Mr. Erdemovic, what was the position

7 of the drivers of the buses who were taking the victims to the Pilica

8 farm?

9 And then your answer, and now you say you don't know about this:

10 A. Well, they were appalled because I think that these

11 people did not know that they were taking them to be executed. They

12 probably thought that they were taking them for an exchange, the exchange

13 that had been promised them. That's what this man told me, the man I

14 talked to, the man who was between 50 and 60 years of age.

15 A. Yes. Yes, you've read it just now. I said that that's what I

16 thought. I did not know that for sure.

17 Q. But you say yourself that according to the impression you got,

18 they did not know that they were driving them there; that they were

19 appalled.

20 A. Yes, but that's my opinion, it's not that somebody said that to me

21 definitely, "We thought that they were going for an exchange." This

22 person who was 60 years old said to me that they thought they were going

23 to an exchange.

24 MR. NICE: And the English version you've been provided now, it's

25 handwritten page 18 at the top right-hand corner, and it's about

Page 25225

1 two-thirds of the way down that page.

2 JUDGE MAY: Yes.

3 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

4 Q. Did you get the impression, then, that the people who had sent

5 them out there and those who were driving them did not know where they

6 were sending them or where they were driving them to but that you stopped

7 these buses and you executed these people?

8 A. That's not correct.

9 Q. So what you said is not correct.

10 A. No; what you said is not correct.

11 Q. So now it seems that these drivers knew that they were taking

12 these people to their execution, and you say --

13 JUDGE MAY: You're confusing the witness. Now, he's told you what

14 he's said. Let's move on to another point.

15 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

16 Q. Tell me, please, because what you said about this man who was

17 there in hospital is something that I first saw -- let me just have a look

18 and see where this is. Here it is. It is in your statement, 03042103,

19 the last page of your statement, one of the many.

20 It says: "Sometime towards the end of July, the beginning of

21 August 1995, I was wounded and transferred to the military hospital in

22 Belgrade. In hospital, I saw other members of the army of Republika

23 Srpska from Bijeljina. Members of the VRS often went to that hospital.

24 While I was in hospital, in the bed next to me was a man from the state

25 security service of Serbia. He said that a unit of the MUP of Serbia took

Page 25226

1 part in the attack against Srebrenica in July 1995. He said that that

2 unit had the task to arrest Naser Oric and to take him to Serbia. This is

3 the commander of the Srebrenica brigade of the army of the B and H. I

4 heard that previously he was Slobodan Milosevic's bodyguard."

5 So you meant Naser Oric, right?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Now, that you heard this in hospital from a member of the state

8 security of Serbia, I found that in your statement dated the 3rd of

9 November, 2001.

10 Now, tell me, how is that possible from the beginning of 1996 and

11 then during this trial of yours, the one that you had here and you were

12 convicted to a five-year sentence for the commission of those crimes and

13 you were released much earlier, and how come it was only on the 3rd of

14 November, 2001, after all these questions that we had, things that you did

15 not hear about, see, all of a sudden you mention a unit of the state

16 security of Serbia?

17 A. Mr. Milosevic, I do not mention that. I just say that that is

18 what this person was saying. I gave this statement because I was called

19 by the gentlemen of the OTP and they asked me about these events. That's

20 why I made this statement and that's why I mentioned this man.

21 Everything that the Prosecution and the investigators asked me

22 about are the things that I answered about. In my first statements, they

23 didn't ask me about this, whether I knew anything about the involvement of

24 the army of Yugoslavia or the MUP of Serbia, but then I was asked and I

25 gave my answer. I answered about what I had heard about. I didn't say

Page 25227

1 that I heard this for sure.

2 JUDGE MAY: We're going to consider the position.

3 [Trial Chamber confers]

4 JUDGE MAY: We'll go into private session.

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23 [Open session]

24 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honour.

25 JUDGE MAY: We are adjourning for ten minutes.

Page 25230

1 --- Break taken at 2.07 p.m.

2 --- On resuming at 2.24 p.m.

3 JUDGE MAY: We'll start in private session.

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11 [redacted]

12 [redacted]

13 [redacted]

14 [redacted]

15 [Open session]

16 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session.

17 JUDGE MAY: We are sitting for another 20 minutes in order to

18 complete this witness's evidence.

19 Yes, Mr. Milosevic.

20 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] If, Mr. May, you're leaving it up to

21 me whether to give some time to Mr. Tapuskovic, I cannot be -- I have to

22 be a gentleman and give him a little, so I'll give him at least five

23 minutes. But of course I cannot cover all my questions in 15 or 20

24 minutes.

25 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Page 25231

1 Q. But since we stopped where we did, Mr. Erdemovic, when you said it

2 was only then that they asked you regarding the involvement of Serbia, I

3 have another statement of yours. This other one I see was on the 13th of

4 December, 2002, and on page 2 you say -- or, rather, that is what it says

5 here: "He stated that camouflage uniforms were worn by the Drina Wolves,"

6 et cetera. This is at the end of the second page. "In answer to a

7 question, Erdemovic answered that during the operation he didn't see

8 anyone from the MUP of Serbia or FRY. He remembers that when he was lying

9 in hospital with a member of a special unit from Montenegro who spoke

10 about the operation in Srebrenica as if he knew a lot about it, but he

11 didn't mention any specific details."

12 Therefore, this time you are not even saying that he participated

13 but simply that he knew about it. Is this in dispute or not,

14 Mr. Erdemovic?

15 A. That is not in dispute, Mr. Milosevic.

16 Q. Very well. Then we can move on. Let us consider the dates. Your

17 story about dates is not the same throughout. You made one point in Novi

18 Sad, something else here, and in your interview with Vanesa

19 Vasic-Janekovic, you gave different information and your testimony here

20 differs, and apparently it differs depending on needs.

21 On the 6th of July, 1996, the date of receiving the order is the

22 10th of July, and date of the execution is the 16th of July. This is what

23 you said here.

24 Whereas on the other hand, in a statement for MUP, the date when

25 you received the order was quite different. Here it is. I will tender

Page 25232

1 this into evidence. This is a statement that you signed, Mr. Erdemovic,

2 and it says: "I, Drazen Erdemovic, born on the 25th of November, 1971, in

3 Tuzla, statement: On the 19th of July, 1995, I returned from the funeral

4 of a killed comrade, Dragan Kolimir [phoen] from Trebinje. The next day

5 -" that is on the 20th of July, 1995 - "in the early morning hours we

6 received an order from our commander Milorad Pelemis that with our van we

7 go to Zvornik, report to the military police there," and then you speak of

8 a group that included Brano Gojkovic, Zoran, et cetera.

9 So here you mention completely different dates, quite different

10 dates, that it was on the 20th of July. Please have a look at the

11 statement that you signed.

12 JUDGE MAY: No. Let the witness answer.

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I explained that to the OTP. As

14 you know, I first gave a statement to the ABC reporter, and I gave her the

15 wrong dates intentionally because I didn't trust her. And as she called

16 me up by phone to say that her bag had disappeared at the airport in

17 Belgrade with the tape, that is why I mentioned those same dates in the

18 State Security Service of Serbia in Novi Sad.

19 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

20 Q. Very well.

21 JUDGE MAY: Yes. You're asking for that to be exhibited, that

22 statement?

23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Certainly, because I think that the

24 explanation is quite unconvincing.

25 THE REGISTRAR: Defence Exhibit 173, Your Honour.

Page 25233

1 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

2 Q. Then you have another statement that you gave on the 6th. It is a

3 lengthy one, but I won't read all of it because I don't have time. And

4 you say there: "On the 20th of July, 1995, in the morning we received

5 orders from the commander, Lieutenant Milorad Pelemis to go to Zvornik and

6 to report to a lieutenant colonel of the military police whose name I

7 don't know."

8 So again this differs from what you stated, because you stated

9 that you -- that a lieutenant colonel came to you with two men, and here

10 you say that you were ordered to go to Zvornik to report to a colonel of

11 the military police, and again the date given is the 20th of July, 1995.

12 So I'll give you this statement to look at too, your own statement.

13 Just one further point. Let me find it. At the end of this

14 statement, I'll just quote: "His wife said that Natasa had called me up

15 four to six times by phone so that we could call her back. Radoslav

16 called up Natasa who told him that at the airport of Sucin she was

17 searched in detail and her bag with the recorded tape of the interview had

18 disappeared. She said that we should contact the American embassy in

19 Belgrade as soon as possible and to contact a certain Larry. I would like

20 to mention that I received 100 German marks, and before that I also

21 received 100 dollars." You also say, "Voluntarily given statement on the

22 3rd of March, 1996."

23 So to your interviewers, that is representatives of the Ministry

24 of the Interior in Novi Sad, you give detailed explanations about the

25 reporter being searched and her bag disappearing, but in that statement

Page 25234

1 too you repeat the same date, the 20th of July, 1995. So why the

2 discrepancy?

3 A. As I have said, the date is wrong. Also the name. You must

4 understand. The name of that reporter is not Natasa but Vanesa. I never

5 said the name Natasa. Also I said that this person bought me medicines.

6 She didn't give me any money. She bought me medicines that I needed.

7 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone.

8 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

9 Q. What is stated in your statement, the one you signed, is something

10 I quoted from as well, and you explained in that statement that you were

11 told that she had been searched, but still you repeated the same date, the

12 20th of July. So surely that is not in dispute.

13 A. It is not, because I said a moment ago I gave those dates because

14 Vanesa informed me that the tape had gone missing in Belgrade, and on that

15 tape were the same dates as you find in this statement, Mr. Milosevic.

16 JUDGE MAY: Do you want that exhibited?

17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, certainly.

18 JUDGE MAY: It will be exhibited.

19 THE REGISTRAR: Defence Exhibit 174, Your Honour.

20 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

21 Q. I have here a statement by Radoslav Kremenovic. I have it with

22 me, this statement by Radoslav Kremenovic, and I will only quote from page

23 2. "I found it strange that Miso should make such open statements.

24 Drazen started telling me the story about Srebrenica which is the main

25 cause of what was to follow. On Saturday we sat down and had a quiet talk

Page 25235

1 about everything, that is, he told me the following: And then that -" and

2 I'm quoting - "on the 20th of July they were in Vlasenica because they had

3 returned from the funeral on the 19th of July in the evening, and in the

4 morning, Miso selected eight men for an assignment, the details of which

5 they would be informed by a lieutenant colonel from the Zvornik corps."

6 So this statement by Kremenovic coincides in dates with what you

7 yourself said. So again it is claimed that this was on the 20th of July

8 and that you returned from the funeral on the 19th. So please have a look

9 at the statement of Radoslav Kremenovic, which actually begins with the

10 words: "On the 15th of February, 1992, Drazen Erdemovic from Bijeljina

11 called me up," and then the lengthy statement, and I've marked the

12 relevant passages for you.

13 JUDGE MAY: Yes.

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] May I answer? Kremenovic linked me

15 up with this reporter, and he told me not to give her the correct dates,

16 to this journalist. If Kremenovic wanted to say that those were false

17 dates, he would have told you when you questioned him.

18 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

19 Q. I haven't questioned him. I received these statements. And let

20 me ask you directly: Did you adjust --

21 JUDGE MAY: Kremenovic's statement is not exhibited. It's a

22 statement, as you know, according to our rules is a statement of somebody

23 else. If you want to call Kremenovic, you can do so.

24 Did you meet -- Mr. Erdemovic, did you meet Kremenovic in the way

25 that he describes?

Page 25236

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know in which way we met.

2 Mr. Milosevic just said what happened regarding the date. He didn't tell

3 me how we met, but I did call up Mr. Kremenovic, and I went to see him in

4 Becej, and that is where I was arrested. In the Republic of Serbia.

5 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

6 Q. Very well. When exactly, according to your current testimony,

7 when did you return? So you didn't return on the 19th. When, then?

8 A. On the 15th, early in the morning.

9 Q. And then on the 16th they gave you these instructions?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. So all these statements that you gave to representatives of the

12 MUP and the Prosecutor's office in Serbia are incorrect; is that right?

13 A. Not all the information, just the dates.

14 Q. Mr. Erdemovic, I think that you gave the correct dates to the best

15 of your recollection, but later on you adjusted those dates to fit in with

16 the course of events that were given to you by the side opposite.

17 A. Mr. Milosevic, the side opposite didn't know anything about what

18 had happened in Pilica and when it had happened, but I told them about it.

19 Q. But you first made a statement to the police in Serbia, and on

20 that basis you were charged for war crimes, and that was the statement

21 that you made at the beginning of March 1996, far earlier than you made a

22 statement to the other side. And what's incorrect there? You say they

23 learnt about it after your statement. After your statement in Serbia,

24 yes, because it was public.

25 A. First of all, let me say that nobody believed that this had --

Page 25237

1 that that had happened. They spoke to me a number of times about it, that

2 is, the Serbian side. And later on, when they found the spots, only then

3 did they realise that this had actually happened. They didn't tell me

4 anything, I told them where the places were where this had happened. And

5 I believe that when they said it was unbelievable, it was -- it is indeed

6 unbelievable.

7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Do I have a little more time? I

8 don't want to deprive Mr. Tapuskovic of his five minutes. Do I have a

9 little more time or not?

10 JUDGE MAY: No. If he is to have five minutes, he will have to

11 begin within the next minute. But if you want to ask one more question,

12 you can.

13 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

14 Q. Let me just ask this question: As you say that there were

15 Seselj's Chetniks who voluntarily came but were not under the command of

16 the JNA, and then you say that in 1994 Arkan's Tigers came to do something

17 and that they didn't reach agreement over the price, is it true that you

18 never saw Seselj or Arkan or Seselj's Chetniks or Arkan's Tigers? Is that

19 true or not, Mr. Erdemovic?

20 A. Mr. Milosevic, I know what I saw and what I heard. I never met

21 you, I never saw Seselj, nor did I ever see Arkan in real life.

22 Q. You never saw any of them.

23 A. No, not those people. As for Seselj's Chetniks, I know that they

24 were there. I did see them. We had problems with them, as the military

25 police.

Page 25238

1 Q. In view of the fact that you knew what you did, in Serbia or

2 before any court that you can imagine in the world, for this massive

3 killing that you yourself confessed to committing, would you have been

4 sentenced to such a sentence that you received here?

5 JUDGE MAY: That's not a proper question, not for the witness.

6 Yes, Mr. Tapuskovic.

7 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

8 Questioned by Mr. Tapuskovic:

9 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Erdemovic, let's try and cover this very

10 quickly. We saw this clip at which General Mladic is seen exchanging

11 greetings upon entering Srebrenica. Did you see that well?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Did all this happen prior to the events at the farm and at Pilica?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. After that, you didn't see Mladic again?

16 A. No.

17 Q. These two documents under tabs 21 and 22, those are documents

18 about joining the army of Republika Srpska and a document granting you

19 permission to travel to Yugoslavia on the 11th of February, 1996. Both

20 documents were signed far before these events in July; isn't that right?

21 A. No. No.

22 Q. No?

23 A. No.

24 Q. So these two documents were not signed as indicated?

25 A. I received this document, the official permission to go to the

Page 25239

1 Republic of Serbia, was given to me on the 20th of February, 1996, after

2 Srebrenica. As for the contract, it was signed before this happened, in

3 1995.

4 Q. So, Mr. Erdemovic, you're claiming that though the date is the 1st

5 of February, 1995, that you received it later; is that right?

6 A. You said after those events, that both documents signed by Mladic.

7 I said that I received one document on the 20th of February, 1996, and the

8 contract I received before the events in Srebrenica.

9 Q. Well, will you please explain why it says the 1st of February,

10 1995, on that document.

11 A. I don't understand.

12 JUDGE MAY: Which document is that? The authorisation -- just a

13 moment. The authorisation for official travel we have dated the 11th of

14 February, 1996. The contract -- that's tab 21. The contract we have is

15 dated 30th of April, query, 5.

16 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] So both were before July. That's

17 what I'm saying, that both were issued before July 1995.

18 JUDGE MAY: The February 1996 one.

19 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] April 1995.

20 JUDGE MAY: Yes. April 1995, but not February 1996.

21 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] But in any event it is before

22 July 1995. Never mind, maybe I've made a mistake, I'm sorry.

23 Q. There's this photograph, number 8. You say that on that

24 photograph number 8 you don't wish to name a particular person. What

25 ethnicity is that person?

Page 25240

1 A. A Serb.

2 Q. Was he with you at the farm?

3 A. No.

4 Q. And out of these seven people, can you say whether there was only

5 one Serb among them that day on the farm?

6 A. No. No, there were several.

7 Q. How many out of seven?

8 A. There was Vlastimir Golijan, he's a Serb; Goronja Zoran, he's a

9 Serb; Savanovic Stanko, he's also a Serb. Aleksandar Cvetkovic, he's also

10 a Serb.

11 Q. Could you tell me, when the bus arrived, the first bus arrived at

12 the site of the farm, were there men under arms in the bus?

13 A. I think the policemen who were there had some sort of weapon. I

14 can't remember with certainty.

15 Q. And what happened to those policemen?

16 A. What do you mean what happened?

17 Q. Did they have anything to do with the execution?

18 A. No. They were in the bus and they were sending the men to get off

19 the bus.

20 Q. What Gojkovic said to you, that such-and-such a thing would happen

21 on that day, did he tell you who told him that, who he had heard it from?

22 A. He didn't say but I assumed it was the lieutenant colonel who told

23 him.

24 Q. Could you explain to Their Honours how exactly you seven carried

25 out those executions for four -- all of four hours. Could you explain

Page 25241

1 what it looked like, how it happened.

2 A. It was horrific. And to be quite honest towards this Court and

3 you, I can no longer talk about it.

4 Q. Were all seven of you doing it or individually one by one?

5 A. Not seven; there were eight of us.

6 Q. Were you all shooting at the same time or did it happen

7 differently? Could you explain this? I don't want to lead in any way.

8 A. Mostly we did it all together. That's all I can say and I don't

9 want to talk about it any more.

10 Q. Can you just tell us that you could -- you didn't want to accept

11 what was happening in Pilica. However, you did this obediently, whereas

12 in Pilica, you didn't.

13 A. Perhaps because I decided after everything that I had had enough.

14 As you know well, I surrendered myself. No one needed to issue an arrest

15 warrant for me. You know that very well, Mr. Tapuskovic.

16 Q. But the wound for which you were treated in Belgrade, was the

17 wound inflicted in the coffee bar?

18 A. Yes. Not just one, several.

19 Q. Yes, but in the coffee bar.

20 A. Yes.

21 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

22 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Nice, I think you must forego re-examination.

23 MR. NICE: As Your Honour pleases.

24 JUDGE MAY: Given the time constraints, yes. We have some

25 exhibits to clear up.

Page 25242

1 MR. NICE: Tab 14, can that be withdrawn? That's the one we

2 haven't produced.

3 JUDGE MAY: Yes.

4 MR. NICE: The transcript that the accused asked the most

5 questions about was the one dated the 5th of July, now provided to you in

6 English and coming, I think, from a sentencing hearing, it may be you'll

7 want to exhibit that, I don't know.

8 JUDGE MAY: Yes. We'll give that the next tab number.

9 MR. NICE: Can I clarify --

10 JUDGE MAY: Hold on.

11 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honour, Prosecution Exhibit 514, tab 25.

12 JUDGE MAY: There was -- the plea agreement was under seal but

13 we're going to review that position. I think we may be able to lift the

14 order for confidentiality. It's normally done after the hearing, and I

15 don't know why it wasn't done in this case.

16 MR. NICE: It certainly hadn't been done in this case and it was

17 my error not to have been on top of that the minute that the accused

18 produced it. There's one thing about it I'd like to say in private

19 session. It will take a second.

20 JUDGE MAY: Very well.

21 [Private session]

22 [redacted]

23 [redacted]

24 [redacted]

25 [redacted]

Page 25243

1 [redacted]

2 [redacted]

3 [redacted]

4 [redacted]

5 [redacted]

6 [redacted]

7 [redacted]

8 [redacted]

9 [redacted]

10 [redacted]

11 [redacted]

12 [redacted]

13 [redacted]

14 [redacted]

15 [redacted]

16 [Open session]

17 THE REGISTRAR: We're now in open session.

18 MR. NICE: We will withdraw tab 18 as well.

19 JUDGE MAY: Tab 18 withdrawn.

20 Mr. Erdemovic, that concludes your evidence. Thank you for coming

21 to the Tribunal to give it. You are now free to go.

22 We will rise. Just wait until the blinds are brought down before

23 you go.

24 We will rise and sit tomorrow morning, 9.00.

25 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.55 p.m.,

Page 25244

1 to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 26th day of August,

2 2003, at 9.00 a.m.

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