Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 25595

1 Friday, 29 August 2003

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 [The witness entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 9.08 a.m.

6 JUDGE MAY: Yes, let the witness take the declaration.

7 WITNESS: WITNESS B-1054

8 [Witness answered through interpreter]

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

10 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

11 JUDGE MAY: Thank you very much. If you'd like to take a seat.

12 Yes, Mr. Groome.

13 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, before I begin the examination of this

14 witness, there is a small administrative matter I'd ask to go into private

15 session to address with the Court.

16 [Private session]

17 [redacted]

18 [redacted]

19 [redacted]

20 [redacted]

21 [redacted]

22 [redacted]

23 [redacted]

24 [redacted]

25 [redacted]

Page 25596

1 [redacted]

2 [redacted]

3 [redacted]

4 [redacted]

5 [redacted]

6 [redacted]

7 [redacted]

8 [redacted]

9 [redacted]

10 [redacted]

11 [Open session]

12 THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session.

13 MR. GROOME: Your Honours, pursuant to an order of the Trial

14 Chamber dated the 13th of July, 2003, granting the Prosecution's

15 application for the admission of B-1054 -- I'm sorry, the 30th of July,

16 2003, granting the Prosecution's application for the admission of B-1054's

17 testimony from the trial of Prosecutor versus Mitar Vasiljevic, case

18 number 98-32, the Prosecution would like to formally tender one binder

19 containing the transcripts and related exhibits comprising the evidence of

20 B-1054. I would note that tabs 2, 7, 8, and 9 of that binder were

21 exhibits that were placed under seal in the previous trial and would ask

22 that that protection be continued.

23 JUDGE MAY: Yes, the binder will get the next exhibit number.

24 THE REGISTRAR: It will be Exhibit 522, Your Honours.

25 MR. GROOME: May I ask to begin by requesting that the witness be

Page 25597

1 shown tab 2 of that binder. It is the pseudonym sheet from the prior

2 proceeding.

3 Q. B-1054, is that your name contained on this sheet of paper?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Thank you. Ms. 1054, the Chamber is in possession of your

6 testimony and exhibits from your prior testimony from the Vasiljevic

7 trial. I will not ask you to repeat that testimony. I would like to ask

8 you to clarify in part and summarise some of the more significant aspects

9 of that evidence. Your sworn testimony reveals that on the 10th of June,

10 1992, there was fighting in your village, the village of Koritnik, just

11 north of the town of Visegrad at the homes of a number of Muslim residents

12 in that village was fired upon. Shortly after the fighting, Serb

13 neighbours of yours delivered a message to you and other Muslim members of

14 your community. Can I ask you to tell the Chamber what that message was.

15 A. The message was that we should leave our village because our

16 [redacted], told us that there was ethnic cleansing and that

17 we had to move out.

18 Q. Your testimony continues with you and most of the Muslims from

19 your village gathering the next day with as many of your possessions as

20 you could carry and leaving the village toward the town of Visegrad. You

21 went on further to describe an encounter at a crossroads during which

22 several armed Serbs discussed whether to kill you there or in the town

23 itself. You went on to testify that you arrived in the town at around

24 3.00 to 4.00 in the afternoon, and after trying to go to the Red Cross,

25 you and the others congregated in front of the Hotel Visegrad. You went

Page 25598

1 on to describe how after approximately an hour, you were instructed to go

2 to Pionirska Street in a now empty Muslim part of the town itself. You

3 testified to eventually arriving and taking refuge in the abandoned house

4 of Mr. Memic. I want to now ask you several questions regarding what

5 happened in the Memic house. Can I ask you to begin by telling us how

6 many people were in this group and what was its composition?

7 A. When we moved from the new hotel, when a Serb policeman told us to

8 go to Pionirska Street, we arrived in front of Memic's house. There was a

9 group of some 70 people, mostly elderly men and children and young girls.

10 We were wet from the rain. We changed. Somebody had tea, somebody had

11 coffee. And in the meantime, Mitar Vasiljevic and Milan Lukic arrived, as

12 well as Sredoje Lukic and Milan Susnjar, also known as Laco, and they told

13 us to go to one room. Then Milan Lukic put a cloth on the table telling

14 us to put all our jewellery on that cloth. We did that, and then we were

15 forced into another room where Milan Susnjar was, and he stripped us

16 naked. We had to dance. They were giving instruction, move forward, move

17 backward. Skip this way and that.

18 After that, we put our clothes on. And then they took out Jasmina

19 Kurspahic, and Jasmina Vila. I don't know where they took them. When we

20 asked them what happened, they wouldn't tell us anything when they came

21 back as to what had happened to them.

22 Q. Did there come a time when the group was forced to move from this

23 house to a house very close by, to a house owned by a family by the of

24 name Omeragic?

25 A. After that, when they took all this from us and mistreated us,

Page 25599

1 then they -- then Milan Lukic who was standing at the door of Jusuf

2 Memic's house, and Vasiljevic at the other house, and then we were

3 escorted to Omer Memic's house. And at the end, we were burned shortly

4 after that.

5 Q. Can you please describe what happened in the Omeragic house.

6 A. When we reached this Omeragic house, the carpets had been -- some

7 oil or fuel had been poured on the carpets. And that is when they set

8 fire to us. Amongst us was a two-day-old baby. The children were

9 screaming. The women, the old men, were trying to help. I was right next

10 to the window, and I threw out my 13-year-old son out the window, and then

11 I followed him a couple of minutes later. Then I was wounded in my left

12 arm and left leg. I went into the stream and the sewage canal where I

13 stayed for three nights and three days.

14 Q. From where you were in the sewage canal, could you see what

15 happened to the people in the house?

16 A. It wasn't far. It was about 50 metres away so that I heard

17 screams, cries for help. It was unbearable. When I think about it, I

18 start dreaming. I feel distressed and awful. It was terrible. It was

19 painful.

20 Q. How many people are you -- can you estimate for us how many people

21 died in the house that night.

22 A. There was us from our village, and others from the neighbouring

23 villages, so there were about 70 of us. And then there were people

24 already in that house when we arrived, so there may have been 75, maybe

25 even more. I didn't count those people that were already there when we

Page 25600

1 arrived.

2 Q. How many members of your immediate family died that night?

3 A. Six of my family members died. My mother-in-law and onwards from

4 that.

5 Q. After you threw your son out of the window of that house, did you

6 know whether or not he had survived the events of that night?

7 A. I didn't know. I had no contact with him for five years. We met

8 five years later in Zenica. And this was a terrible experience and a

9 shock to see him five years later. We had parted when he was only 13 and

10 a half.

11 Q. Did your son know that you had survived that night during the

12 course of that five years?

13 A. No, he didn't know. He didn't know anything about me, nor did I

14 know anything about him.

15 Q. Can you please briefly describe to the Chamber the injuries you

16 sustained that night.

17 A. That night, while I was in the sewage canal, there were worms all

18 over my wounds. I had wounds in my left arm and leg. When I reached the

19 Gorazde hospital, I was in a sorry state.

20 Q. And finally after escaping from Visegrad, did you learn that this

21 group had perpetrated a similar crime to another group of Muslim civilians

22 in a house in Visegrad, without going into the detail of that event?

23 A. Yes, at the Bikavac, about 80 people were burnt by this same

24 group. Again, these were civilians, elderly people and children.

25 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, I have no further questions. If the

Page 25601

1 Chamber will recall, Mr. Milosevic sought to ask an earlier witness some

2 questions about Visegrad, in particular, the event of Murat Sabanovic and

3 his threats to blow up a dam. The third witness today is the witness that

4 the Prosecution has brought who has personal knowledge of those events.

5 This witness doesn't, so perhaps that will save some time on the

6 examination of this witness. I have no further questions.

7 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Milosevic, you hear what counsel says. This

8 witness does not know about the events you were asking the other witness

9 about. However, there is a witness coming shortly who you can ask about

10 those events.

11 Yes.

12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I understand that the witness has no

13 knowledge about what Mr. Groome referred to. But the witness mentions in

14 her statement the presence of certain units of the Uzice Corps, and this

15 presence is linked to those events. So I will ask the witness indirectly

16 something with regard to the event that Mr. Groome mentioned.

17 Cross-examined by Mr. Milosevic:

18 Q. [Interpretation] So Witness 1054, you gave two statements to the

19 investigators of the Tribunal, on the 12th and 13th of February, 1998.

20 That is the first one. And the second one on the 15th of June, 2000.

21 Isn't that right?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. In addition to these statements, you also gave a statement to the

24 Ministry of the Interior of Bosnia and Herzegovina, the centre of security

25 services in Zenica on the 14th of August, 1995 which was three years prior

Page 25602

1 to this other first statement. Is that right?

2 A. I didn't give any statements in Zenica.

3 Q. It doesn't matter whether you made them in Zenica, but

4 representatives of that centre in Zenica took a statement from you. I

5 have that statement here, which you signed. [redacted]

6 [redacted]

7 [redacted]

8 [redacted]

9 JUDGE MAY: Let's go into private session.

10 [Private session]

11 [redacted]

12 [redacted]

13 [redacted]

14 [redacted]

15 [redacted]

16 [redacted]

17 [redacted]

18 [redacted]

19 [redacted]

20 [redacted]

21 [Open session]

22 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

23 Q. Madam 1054, would you be kind enough to have a look at this

24 statement, please, and to give it back to me because I have some questions

25 to put to you about it.

Page 25603

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

Page 25604

1 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I have several

2 copies of that statement, to avoid it going from one hand to another. It

3 was received from the Prosecution, and I prepared it for my own benefit,

4 for my own questions.

5 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Let the witness have the copy in front of her.

6 Are there any English translations for us?

7 MR. GROOME: I've just sent for them, Your Honour.

8 JUDGE MAY: Thank you.

9 Witness B-1054, just have a look at that document. It's suggested

10 that that's a statement which you made to -- I forget. I think it was the

11 investigation centre in Zenica. Do you recognise it now?

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It is my signature, but I don't

13 remember making a statement to anyone in Zenica. In 1995?

14 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

15 Q. Madam 1054, the fact that it says the centre in Zenica doesn't

16 mean that you were taken to Zenica to make that statement. Probably an

17 official person from that centre came to take the statement from you, and

18 those officials persons are indicated. It says: "Statement taken by

19 authorised official persons" and there are two signatures. The record

20 taker and your own signature. "Statement given by Witness 1054," that is

21 your full first and last name, and you confirm it with your signature.

22 Isn't that so? Isn't that so?

23 A. Yes, yes, the signature is mine. But really for me to make a

24 statement in 1995, I really don't know.

25 Q. I'm not claiming, nor could I know technically, how this happened,

Page 25605

1 whether they took you to Zenica or whether someone came to take the

2 statement from you because this is a large area. I just wanted to

3 establish whether this is your signature. So let's move on so as not to

4 waste any more time, as I'm sure my time will be limited.

5 On page 2 of your statement of the 12th of February, 1998, in the

6 third paragraph, I'm talking about the statement to the investigators, you

7 say that tensions in Visegrad could be felt as early as 1991, that

8 barricades were set up, and that the fighting started in 1992. Is that

9 right, Madam 1054?

10 A. Yes, yes, that's right.

11 Q. Tell me, please, who was erecting these barricades and who was

12 fighting who in Visegrad and the environs?

13 A. The barricades were erected by our neighbour Serbs so that we

14 couldn't go into town or leave, and so on.

15 Q. Tell me who the fighting was between.

16 A. Our neighbouring Serbs attacked our Muslim villages thinking that

17 they would frighten us and force us to leave our own homes. They started

18 looting and taking things away. We were attacked as Muslims.

19 Q. All right. But when you say "fighting" that implies two sides.

20 A. Fighting, meaning that the Serb side consists of those neighbours

21 of ours who armed themselves, and they attacked us. Yes, it is basically

22 two sides, but it is the case of neighbours attacking us who were

23 innocent.

24 Q. All right. Mr. Groome mentioned that I should not ask you

25 anything about other events, but do you have any knowledge at all as to

Page 25606

1 who are Murat Sabanovic and Avdija?

2 A. Well, they are people like any other people. Not animals.

3 Q. That much I can surmise myself.

4 A. They were men, and they had to fight to pull out the people who

5 were left stranded on the other bank of the Drina. We had no choice

6 except to get out, otherwise we would have been killed. We were forced by

7 circumstances.

8 Q. Did they help you get out of there?

9 A. They didn't help us, but they fought to pull us out. The entire

10 parish, which includes over 50 villages with Muslim population, there were

11 only Muslim houses and a couple of Croat houses. There were no Serbs

12 there.

13 Q. Except this Murat and Avdija Sabanovic who fought to pull you out,

14 how many other men were there with them?

15 A. They were not fighting with rifles. They were fighting to pull us

16 out of there. They didn't have weapons.

17 Q. So they didn't have weapons.

18 A. They didn't.

19 Q. Do you know apart from them, and you obviously know them, do you

20 know Nedzad and Ibrahim Dervisevic, and Jasim Ferid [phoen]?

21 A. I don't.

22 Q. Do you know Zakija Jamuk [phoen] and Medo Kulovic?

23 A. No.

24 Q. Duro Subasic [phoen]?

25 A. I don't know him either.

Page 25607

1 Q. Do you know, and in fact you confirmed you knew the Sabanovic

2 brothers, that in July 1991, they destroyed the monument Ivo Andric?

3 A. I wasn't in Visegrad then.

4 Q. You didn't hear about the destruction of the Ivo Andric monument?

5 A. No.

6 Q. Do you know who Ivo Andric was?

7 A. It was a monument to one man.

8 Q. Do you know that man whose monument was destroyed?

9 A. It was a great man.

10 JUDGE MAY: What is the relevance of this to the burning of

11 civilians in a house? 70 of them. Are you saying there was a provocation

12 of some sort, Mr. Milosevic? Otherwise, I cannot see what relevance it

13 has.

14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May, in any case, the

15 destruction of the monument of Ivo Andric, who is a writer, and the only

16 Yugoslav Nobel prizewinner, a Serb, falls within the context of the war in

17 Bosnia and Herzegovina. And this has to do with the context of events

18 which were taking place throughout that time. And if it cannot certainly

19 justify burning people inside a house, or any other crime, but it helps

20 understand the context of facts, the context of mutual conflict based

21 along ethnic lines because the monument Ivo Andric was destroyed because

22 Ivo Andric was a Serb, not because of any other of his qualities. He, as

23 I said, was the only Nobel Prize winner in the former Yugoslavia.

24 JUDGE MAY: That may or may not be so. But the difficulty is this

25 witness's evidence deals with a specific event. If you've got questions

Page 25608

1 about that, she can no doubt answer them and deal with it as best she can.

2 But to ask her generally about tensions in the area doesn't seem to me to

3 assist your case. No doubt there were tensions in the area. But it's no

4 defence to this kind of action which we're dealing with. That's the

5 difficulty, Mr. Milosevic.

6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May, I don't even think that I

7 have anything to defend myself from here.

8 Q. Mrs. 1054, what does this event have to do with Serbia at all?

9 Was anyone from Serbia involved in this event?

10 A. Well, our Serb neighbours were involved. They attacked us. I

11 didn't say that anybody from Serbia had come. It was our Serb neighbours.

12 Q. So Serbia is involved in the sense that those neighbours of yours

13 were Serbs?

14 JUDGE MAY: That's not for the witness to answer. It may be a

15 matter that we have to deal with in due course. All the witness can say,

16 and you can ask her about this, is who was involved. And she tells you

17 that the Serb neighbours were involved.

18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well. But since the witness,

19 and I have to ask her this, Mr. May, regardless of the fact that you want

20 to limit things to only one event from this entire context, the witness

21 says that before the attack on the village, some units of the Uzice Corps

22 had been in that area.

23 Q. You did mention that, Ms. 1054, didn't you?

24 A. Well, certainly Uzice troops had been in Visegrad, and they had

25 entered in full military equipment. I didn't say that it was them who had

Page 25609

1 set us on fire.

2 Q. Yes, but I wanted to ask you, do you know that it was precisely

3 this Murat Sabanovic, whom you know, and a large group together with him

4 had occupied the plant of the Visegrad hydro power station? It was in all

5 the papers, and you could have heard in public this conversation in which

6 they threatened to blow up the hydro power station, which would have

7 caused a tragedy in that whole area, both on the side that belongs to

8 Bosnia and Herzegovina and on the bank that belongs to Serbia, involving a

9 large number of Muslim and Serb villages. It would have caused a natural,

10 I would say, disaster with unfathomable consequences. It would have

11 caused the destruction of the dam and everything behind that dam.

12 A. That is not true.

13 Q. Okay, then. I wanted to ask you, because this actually happened

14 and we had the opportunity to hear the conversation between this man and

15 his superiors in Sarajevo, I wanted to ask you do you know that the army

16 had come there to restore order and to prevent the tragedy that would have

17 taken the lives of thousands?

18 A. It's not true the army had come to restore order. They had only

19 misled people to return, people who had fled, and many more people

20 eventually suffered. As for this conversation between this Sabanovic and

21 others, I wasn't there. I don't know what was going on.

22 Q. You just said when the army came, people returned.

23 A. Yes, there were a lot of people who had fled from the environs of

24 the town. And when the army came, they addressed people over the

25 public-address system, and they said "it's safe." And people had come

Page 25610

1 back, but later Drina was full of bodies floating in it and red with

2 blood.

3 Q. Well, that is not true. The Uzice Corps said everybody was safe

4 as long as we are here?

5 A. Well, that is not true. There are other people who can discuss it

6 with you. Whether it was safe or not, I'm not in a position to say to

7 you. I'm not in a position to say why they had come.

8 Q. You don't know that they had come to restore normality, normalcy,

9 normal relations?

10 A. I don't know about that. Somebody who is more familiar with the

11 details will be able to tell you, perhaps.

12 Q. But you do say very precisely in your statement: "My village" -

13 this is paragraph 4 at the beginning of the statement - "my village was

14 attacked by my own neighbours, not the Uzice Corps."

15 A. I never said the Uzice Corps had attacked us. But they were

16 involved with our names, the Serbs who lived with us together in Visegrad.

17 Q. You mean to say there were units of the Uzice Corps in the area of

18 Visegrad, then?

19 A. Yes. They must have come from Serbia.

20 Q. And you don't understand why they were there?

21 A. I don't understand. Somebody else will explain it to you.

22 Q. Do you have information about any crime whatsoever committed by

23 any member of the Uzice Corps?

24 A. I don't have such information. Maybe somebody else does.

25 Q. Yes, but I'm asking you.

Page 25611

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

Page 25612

1 A. No, I can't tell you that.

2 Q. Fine. But you said here that it was your neighbours who attacked

3 you. I suppose you know all their names, names of all these neighbours

4 who launched this attack on your village.

5 A. Do you want me to list them?

6 Q. Not now. We'll come to that.

7 You say in paragraph 6 on page 2 of the statement that "all the

8 young men left the village before the attack and fled to the woods."

9 A. Yes. They had to hide, lest they be taken alive and tortured.

10 Q. All right. They ran into the woods. Did they know that there

11 would be an attack and hid beforehand?

12 A. No, they were fleeing from the attack, and they were followed by a

13 storm of bullets.

14 Q. Did you hear about Ahmed Sejdic?

15 A. No, I didn't.

16 Q. All right. Did you hear anything at all about these Muslim

17 barricades and the mobilisation of residents, including from your village,

18 under his command?

19 A. I don't know anything about that.

20 Q. Nothing at all. I don't see your husband mentioned anywhere in

21 your statement. I don't want to mention his name because you are a

22 protected witness, lest I identify you. Did he hide in the woods together

23 with the other men?

24 A. Yes, he did, but you shouldn't think that they had any weapons.

25 They were bare-handed. They had no weapons at all. They were hiding from

Page 25613

1 a storm of bullets.

2 Q. Tell me: During the attack on your village on the 10th of June,

3 the attack being mounted by your neighbours, did any of the residents get

4 killed or wounded?

5 A. You mean the Serbs?

6 Q. No, I'm talking about the attack on your village. You said your

7 village was attacked on the 10th of June?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Was anybody hurt then?

10 A. Nobody was hurt, but they did storm the village. They asked where

11 the men were, and they started looting immediately.

12 Q. Did you know those men who came and started looting?

13 A. Of course I know them. They had lived with us in the same village

14 for decades. Of course I know them.

15 Q. Were they from your village?

16 A. Yes, because Koritnik was next to a Serb village. There were

17 Serbs and Muslims living next to each other.

18 Q. I understand that these Serb neighbours who took part in that

19 attack were looking for the men from your village. Is that so?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. How many people lived in Koritnik before the outbreak of the

22 conflict?

23 A. I didn't count them. I know there were 80 houses populated by

24 Muslims.

25 Q. How many men left the village before the attack, before the 10th

Page 25614

1 of June?

2 A. Well, they wouldn't have fled at all if it hadn't been for another

3 neighbour from another village who came crying to our village saying:

4 "Please, run away, dear neighbours. If you are caught alive, you will be

5 killed." I don't want to name the person. I don't want him to come to

6 any harm.

7 Q. I'm not even asking you to name this neighbour who tried to help

8 you. You mentioned in closed session at the beginning that a certain

9 Grujic, Dusan Grujic, had come and told you that ethnic cleansing was

10 going on and that you should hide.

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Did he use those words, "We are carrying out ethnic cleansing and

13 you should run for cover"?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. All right. All right, Ms. 1054.

16 On page 2, paragraph 8, you said that two or three days later, the

17 soldiers came back and surrounded the village. Is that so?

18 A. Yes, they surrounded it again.

19 Q. You said two or three days later, they came back and surrounded

20 the village.

21 A. They didn't surround it. They came to tell us that we should move

22 out of our houses. They came right to the village.

23 Q. Very well. I only wanted to remind you.

24 You say: "Two or three days later, the soldiers came back and

25 surrounded the village. They told us again we had to surrender our

Page 25615

1 weapons, and the men had to surrender." On that occasion, the following

2 people came to the village, and you enumerate, Milorad Lipovac, Ciro, and

3 Dusan Grujic. Dusan said that ethnic cleansing was being carried out and

4 we had to leave. He said he would take us to Kladanj and put us up there,

5 that we should take a supply of food for two days. We were not verbally

6 or physically abused.

7 So they had come back after the attack because you say it was two

8 or three days later.

9 A. You've just asked me that question.

10 Q. I'm asking this because in the transcript of your testimony

11 mentioned by Mr. Groome, you were asked by their side whether the people

12 who had mounted the attack had come back two or three days later. And on

13 page 1423 of the transcript, you replied: "They never came back to the

14 village. They did not dare to come back." That's what you said. And it

15 says so in the transcript.

16 So tell me now what is the truth? What it says in your statement

17 about their coming back or what you testified to, as I quoted, from the

18 transcript, that they never came back and they did not dare to?

19 JUDGE MAY: Just a moment. The transcript goes on: "Did there

20 come a time when soldiers came back and surrounded the village?" "They

21 came looking again, but we were hiding in the woods." "Did there come a

22 time when you were told that you had to leave the village?" And so it

23 goes on. So that's the complete passage from the transcript.

24 Yes, Witness 1054, do you want to add anything to that?

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

Page 25616

1 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

2 Q. Very well. Regardless of whether they came back or not, tell me

3 what was it they were looting, because you stated previously that the

4 village had been looted earlier on.

5 A. Everything they could get out, they did get out of the houses.

6 They also took away the cattle right in front of us. They boarded it on

7 tractors, TV sets and so on.

8 Q. All right. But you said before that in your statement that

9 previously the village had been looted. So how could they loot it twice

10 then?

11 A. It wasn't twice. It was once as we were getting ready to go.

12 When this neighbour, Dusan Grujic came and told us there would be ethnic

13 cleansing, they came on the same day with tractors and took our stuff on

14 that.

15 Q. Was there any looting before that?

16 A. No, not before that. There was intimidation. They wanted to

17 scare us. They wanted to make us leave.

18 Q. All right. So before that, there was no looting, is that right,

19 Ms. 1054?

20 A. Yeah, that's right.

21 Q. Why did you write in your statement, then, and this in paragraph 3

22 of your statement: "Before the attack in my village, the Uzice Corps was

23 there, and they were looting and plundering. I can't be precise about the

24 dates, but they were there before the 10th of June, 1992." Why did you

25 accuse the soldiers of the Uzice Corps of having looted your village when

Page 25617

1 you said that later on it was these people who looted your village?

2 A. I said a few minutes ago, as far as the looting of the Uzice Corps

3 is concerned, there are other people who can explain this a bit better

4 than I can.

5 Q. But I'm reading your very own statement, not this other person who

6 can explain it a bit better. So what you wrote down here that they looted

7 you and plundered, people from the Uzice Corps, before the 10th of June,

8 so that's not true?

9 A. It is true, and it will be known, when they came, what they did,

10 and everything.

11 Q. But that does not match what you're saying now when you say that

12 they came after the 10th of June, and that's when they plundered.

13 JUDGE MAY: The witness has answered that matter. Yes, let's move

14 on.

15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right.

16 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

17 Q. On the second page, the person you mentioned who said to you - I

18 wrote it down - Dusan Grujic, that ethnic cleansing was being carried

19 out, and then you say that he told you that you were supposed to go. Did

20 he wear some kind of a uniform then or did he wear civilian clothes?

21 A. Yes, it was a uniform.

22 Q. Oh, so he wore a uniform?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. And when he said this to you, that this was ethnic cleansing, did

25 you understand what this was all about? Did you know what ethnic

Page 25618

1 cleansing was?

2 A. Well, as far as I could understand it, and all of us who were

3 present there, of course, ethnic cleansing meant that we should not exist

4 there at all and that we should not live together the way we lived

5 beforehand.

6 Q. Oh, I see. So that's the word he used, this is the expression he

7 used, that they would carry out ethnic cleansing?

8 A. Well, I guess I did not invent it. I think that's exactly what he

9 said, that word.

10 Q. But they did not mistreat you or abuse you when they said then

11 there would be ethnic cleansing. Nobody mistreated you or abused you; is

12 that right?

13 A. Well, no. He and Milorad Lipovac who came with him, the two of

14 them didn't. But then we paid with our very own skins when we went down

15 to town.

16 Q. I'm not asking you about that event now, I'm asking you about

17 this: So nobody touched you and that's what they said to you, that's what

18 you're saying and you say that they told you that ethnic cleansing was

19 being carried out?

20 A. Yes, and Aisa Kurspahic gave him the keys to her house. He said:

21 "You'll give me the keys to your house".

22 Q. And you obeyed them and the next morning you left the village?

23 A. Yes, of course you had to obey. We left under duress. I mean,

24 who would have left his own home and everything he had unless it was under

25 duress?

Page 25619

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

Page 25620

1 Q. They were not forcing, they were not mistreating you, they were

2 not threatening you, they were not shooting anyone, they were not beating

3 anyone? Is that right?

4 A. Well, that day there was no shooting, of course there wasn't any

5 shooting on that day, but they did attack before that and you had to go.

6 Q. All right. Did you inform your husband in any way that you were

7 leaving your house and that you were going?

8 A. Why would I inform my husband when they informed us, our

9 neighbours did. They informed all of us that we all had to go. It wasn't

10 information on an individual basis, we were all told that we had to leave.

11 Q. Did you see your husband at all from the moment when this attack

12 took place, the attack on Koritnik and when you left the village?

13 A. Of course we saw him. Everybody in the village was in their

14 homes.

15 Q. Oh, so they returned. First they escaped to the woods, and then

16 they returned after the attack? Is that right, Mrs. 1054?

17 A. Yeah, that's right.

18 Q. Tell me, please: In this statement of yours, the one you gave to

19 the police, the one we showed here a short while ago, you do not mention

20 anywhere that an attack was launched on Koritnik on the 10th of June; is

21 that right?

22 A. I don't mention it; right?

23 Q. Yes.

24 A. Well, can't you see that you're reading it yourself, it's right in

25 front of you, that there was an attack.

Page 25621

1 Q. But I'm saying that in this statement that you gave in 1995, there

2 is no mention of an attack on Koritnik, you say: "A few local Serbs came,

3 Lipovac Milorad, Grujic Dusan, and Milorad Djuric," and you say that they

4 informed you that you had to move out. That is what is written here in

5 that statement of yours. Is that right?

6 A. Yes. So what do you want now?

7 Q. Well, in your statement given to the investigators, you do not

8 mention a Dusan Djuric; you mention Dusan Grujic and Ciro Grujic. Whereas

9 here in this statement, you talk about Lipovac Milorad, Djuric Dusan, and

10 Milorad Djuric. So you mention completely different names in the two

11 different statements --

12 JUDGE MAY: To be fair to the witness, she mentions one particular

13 name, and she has mentioned it today. Whether it assists anyone to have

14 this sort of detail is a matter, of course, for the Trial Chamber. What

15 she says in her statement - and I'm looking at the statement of the 12th

16 and 13th of February - was that she was not at home when the village was

17 attacked, and then she describes what happened. Then she said: Two or

18 three days later, soldiers came back. They had to surrender, and they

19 were told to leave the village. And the man that she mentioned said there

20 was ethnic cleansing and they had to go. Now, that was her account then.

21 And whether it assists to have the precise detail as to the date, of

22 course, must be doubtful. This was over ten years.

23 Yes, Mr. Milosevic.

24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May, I really don't want to hold

25 it against you, the fact that you don't know the Serbian language, because

Page 25622

1 the assumption is that you don't have to know the language. But in the

2 statement that I am quoting, she talks about Dusan Djuric and Milorad

3 Djuric nicknamed Cinda. That's how the statement starts. And he informed

4 them about the ethnic cleansing. But in the statement she gave to the

5 investigators, she talks about Grujic. These are two completely different

6 surnames. Djuric starts with a D-J, and so on and so forth, and Grujic

7 starts with different letters, so you can see it exactly here. Nowhere in

8 this statement does she mention the same persons. She talks about

9 completely different persons. And her testimony is that these men came.

10 So this is not a marginal matter; this is a question of credibility, of

11 accuracy of this statement.

12 JUDGE MAY: There may be difficulties about the translation, but

13 the English translation gives the name which she has mentioned throughout.

14 Yes, Mr. Groome.

15 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, I do not have a translation of the

16 Zenica statement. I can have that done on an emergency basis and have it

17 to the Court on Monday.

18 JUDGE MAY: I was referring to the witness statement which was

19 taken by the Prosecution which refers to that man. But certainly we

20 should have the Zenica statement.

21 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, I would just point out, given the

22 traumatic events that followed this event, the fire and everything else,

23 it seems somewhat --

24 JUDGE MAY: Academic?

25 MR. GROOME: -- academic to remember the precise names of all of

Page 25623

1 the people in the events preceding it, but I'll leave that to the Chamber.

2 JUDGE MAY: We will have a copy of that statement exhibited, and

3 we'll have to determine in the context of all the evidence the

4 significance of that discrepancy.

5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I just wish to have the point

6 understood: Completely different names are mentioned in this statement.

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, of course, Mr. Milosevic.

8 It's not going to be one and the same man all the time because it wasn't

9 one and the same man who came to our village all the time to mistreat us

10 and to force us to leave our homes.

11 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

12 Q. All right, all right. If that's the explanation, then we can go

13 on, because you do not mention at all any Djurics or any person called

14 Ciro. You mention a Thendo [phoen], and you say his name was Milorad

15 Djuric; isn't that right?

16 A. Yes, well, Ciro is his nickname.

17 Q. Milorad Djuric Ciro, is that right? Is that who was there?

18 A. Yes, he was there for sure.

19 Q. And the statement given to the investigators, you say it was Dusan

20 Grujic.

21 A. Yes, Dusan Grujic came to tell us that there would be ethnic

22 cleansing and that we had to leave. All of these people are neighbours.

23 You don't have to persuade me of anything; I know them and I saw all of

24 them.

25 Q. All right. I don't want to deal with this any longer.

Page 25624

1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Because you said, Mr. May, that you

2 are going to exhibit this statement so there is no need to discuss this

3 with the witness any longer.

4 JUDGE MAY: We will get the exhibit number now for the statement.

5 If we could have a copy handed in, please. Mr. Milosevic, have you got a

6 copy of the statement to hand in, or maybe Mr. Tapuskovic has one. We'll

7 leave one with the witness. It's all right, we have one for the

8 Prosecution, we'll get the next --

9 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I have two more

10 copies.

11 JUDGE MAY: We will get the next Defence exhibit number. We have

12 one, thank you.

13 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, it will be 176. Thank you.

14 JUDGE KWON: And just for the record, in the preceding paragraph,

15 the witness stated that Ciro is a nickname of Radomir Djuric.

16 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, could I just ask that the exhibit be

17 under seal.

18 JUDGE MAY: Yes.

19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] It is important, actually, to see

20 who it was who came to their village, who the people in their village

21 were, because different names are referred to on different occasions.

22 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

23 Q. When you came to Visegrad, you stayed -- you say that when you

24 went to Visegrad, you first came across some Serbs who were wondering

25 whether they should kill you or let you into Visegrad. That's what you

Page 25625

1 said. Isn't that right?

2 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters cannot hear the witness, her

3 microphone is not on.

4 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

5 Q. At the crossroads, you met some Serbs and they wondered whether

6 they should let you go into Visegrad or whether they should kill you.

7 JUDGE MAY: The witness's microphone should be switched on. They

8 are on now.

9 Yes.

10 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

11 Q. And then nothing. They were debating whether they should kill you

12 or not and then they let you enter town.

13 A. They did not let us go. They would have killed us there and they

14 would have thrown us into the Drina River, and they would have used that

15 excavator. But Milorad Lipovac would not let them mistreat us. He said,

16 "take them to town, and then -" begging your pardon - "fuck them any way

17 you want."

18 Q. All right, all right, Mrs. 1054. You stayed at the house of a

19 certain Medic, or rather, first you were in one house and then another

20 house, but that is not important; Isn't that right?

21 A. One -- a group of us was in Jusuf Memic's house, and another group

22 was in his son's house. And we were wet, we got caught in the rain,

23 somebody had tea, and so on.

24 Q. I heard that.

25 A. If you heard that, why are you asking me again?

Page 25626

1 Q. I'm not asking you again about that. You mentioned that you had

2 tea, et cetera, but I didn't ask you about that. And now you say that

3 later they came, and you spoke about that here a few minutes ago. Milan

4 Lukic, Sredoje Lukic, and Milan Susjnar, nicknamed Laco. Isn't that

5 right?

6 A. Yeah.

7 Q. In the statement you gave in Zenica in 1995, you mention that with

8 them in the yard was a certain Bosko Djuric, a taxi driver. Is that

9 right?

10 A. Yes, for sure, he was there too while they were taking our money

11 and our jewellery and gold, and they were stripping us, he was out there.

12 Q. Why have you not mentioned him in this statement?

13 A. Well, I did mention him, but perhaps I got all confused because of

14 everything.

15 Q. All right. I understand that explanation. But tell me, these

16 people whose names you mentioned, did you know all of them personally;

17 Milan Lukic, Sredoje Lukic, Susjnar, did you know them personally?

18 A. They are also our neighbours. Milan Susjnar lives down by Greben.

19 When I went to work, I used to pass by his house. And Milan Lukic and

20 Sredoje Lukic are from Rujiste. How could I not know them? I have lived

21 in Visegrad for 40 years.

22 Q. And what were they professionally?

23 A. Sredoje worked in the police, Sredoje Lukic.

24 Q. So he was a policeman?

25 A. Yes.

Page 25627

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

Page 25628

1 Q. And in the events that you describe, was he still a policeman then

2 or was he a civilian or did he wear some kind of a uniform?

3 A. At that time, he wore a uniform, a police uniform, but it wasn't

4 the one that was worn beforehand. It was a dark one with some kind of

5 little flags on the sleeve and on the cap.

6 Q. So all three men you mentioned are persons you know well, and

7 there can be no confusion regarding their identity?

8 A. There sure can't.

9 Q. Do they have anything to do with the Lukic who was suspected of

10 the attack against civilians and their killing in Strbci?

11 A. Of course he does -- they do.

12 Q. Was it the same person?

13 A. It wasn't anybody else.

14 Q. If that is one and the same man, do you know that in Serbia, he is

15 a wanted person precisely on account of what had happened in Strbci, in

16 connection with the crime in Strbci?

17 A. I don't know whether he's wanted or not. I know that he is that

18 man, that very man.

19 Q. Very well. As far as I can remember, he was even arrested.

20 A. I don't know that either.

21 Q. But in connection with the events in Strbci, as for what you're

22 testifying about, that was not known at the time. In your statement,

23 which you gave in 1995, you claim that Milan and Sredoje Lukic on that

24 occasion raped Jasmina Zuban and Ifeta Kurspahic. Is that right?

25 A. They took them away. The women came back in a terrible state;

Page 25629

1 they were taking pills. They didn't rape them in my presence, so I can't

2 say.

3 Q. I just want to clear this up with you, Madam 1054, because there's

4 a drastic difference. So please, look at the statement. You say, and I

5 am quoting from the statement you gave to the police in Bosnia and

6 Herzegovina: "The girls and women that they liked were raped, so they

7 raped Ismeta Kurspahic and Zuban."

8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May, there's nothing here.

9 JUDGE MAY: We'll go into private session.

10 [Private session]

11 [redacted]

12 [redacted]

13 [redacted]

14 [redacted]

15 [redacted]

16 [redacted]

17 [redacted]

18 [redacted]

19 [redacted]

20 [redacted]

21 [redacted]

22 [redacted]

23 [redacted]

24 [redacted]

25 [redacted]

Page 25630

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13 Pages 25630 redacted private session

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

Page 25631

1 [redacted]

2 [redacted]

3 [redacted]

4 [redacted]

5 [redacted]

6 [redacted]

7 [redacted]

8 [redacted]

9 [redacted]

10 [redacted]

11 [redacted]

12 [redacted]

13 [redacted]

14 [redacted]

15 [redacted]

16 [redacted]

17 [redacted]

18 [redacted]

19 [redacted]

20 [redacted]

21 [Open session]

22 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

23 Q. You go on to say that Lukic searched you in Jusuf Memic's house.

24 Is that right?

25 A. Yes, when he took our jewellery and money.

Page 25632

1 Q. You say in that statement that you handed over your money to him.

2 Is that right?

3 A. Yes, we all did; everything. He threw a cloth on the table and

4 said, "Put all your jewellery and money here on the table."

5 Q. In your statement to the security centre, you mention that, too,

6 don't you? How much money did he take from you?

7 A. He knows how much money he took. Anyway, the bag was full that he

8 had collected from all of us.

9 Q. How much did you personally give him?

10 A. More than 2.000 German marks, apart from the jewellery.

11 Q. However, during your testimony, you said that you handed over more

12 than 2.000 German marks. But in your testimony for which we have the

13 transcript, on page 1424, line 10 of the transcript, explaining what you

14 had taken with you from the house when you left it on the 14th of June,

15 you stated that you took some money and documents with you. Is that

16 right?

17 Where did all this jewellery come from?

18 A. We all had jewellery, not just me, and we all took it with us, of

19 course. We didn't leave it behind.

20 Q. Very well. In your statement to the investigators, on page 5,

21 paragraph 2, you say that Lukic, about 2000 hours, took you to Adem

22 Omeragic's house. Is that right?

23 A. Yes, Milan Lukic, Sredoje Lukic, and Mitar Vasiljevic, they were

24 there when we were forced from one house to the other.

25 Q. And on page 2, paragraph 4 of the statement to the security centre

Page 25633

1 in 1995, you say: "When we all entered, they shut the door, and then they

2 came back with an incendiary material which started burning immediately."

3 And you say that "Lukic fired a burst of fire into the ground at the exit

4 so as to prevent the people from escaping."

5 A. Nobody could escape when there was a fire burning at the door.

6 Q. Now, look at the statement that you gave three years later to the

7 investigators. On page 6, paragraph 1, you say: "Some 30 minutes into

8 our stay in that room, these two Lukics and Mitar Vasiljevic came back to

9 this house. I saw them clearly. They did not enter the room, but they

10 opened the door. And I saw Milan Lukic put a bomb on the floor, the kind

11 that has a string attached to it, a fuse attached to it. The fire burns

12 its way to the bomb, and then causes an explosion. I saw Milan Lukic

13 holding the bomb in his hand. I saw him light the bomb at the door. And

14 I saw him putting it down on the ground. People were sitting down. Lukic

15 swore. I saw Sredoje and Mitar standing behind Milo Lukic. He was

16 standing at the door."

17 A. He wasn't. He was standing at the door.

18 Q. With reference to this same event, did you give a statement to

19 Mustafa Sacirovic, known as Mule, that was later included in Naser Oric's

20 book, "Srebrenica, Witnesses Accused? "

21 A. I don't know who this Mustafa is, nor do I know who Naser Oric is.

22 Q. But this is in tab 8. That I was given by Mr. Groome who was

23 examining you.

24 MR. GROOME: [Previous interpretation continues] ...

25 JUDGE MAY: Let the witness have a copy.

Page 25634

1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I don't know who tendered it.

2 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, it was tendered under seal, so ...

3 JUDGE MAY: Yes, let the witness have a copy.

4 What is it you want to ask the witness about here, Mr. Milosevic?

5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Here, she says, and this is page 114

6 of the English version, 00816734, and I will shorten it.

7 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

8 Q. "First they lit something like gas at the door from which a flame

9 started spreading to the room we were in." Was that how it was, Madam

10 1054?

11 A. Yes, of course it was. And as people started jumping out, two

12 people - I don't want to name them - then they went under the window and

13 they shot at the people through the window to prevent them from jumping

14 out of the window.

15 Q. Are you talking about a bomb with a fuse, yet here there's mention

16 of a gas. You are confirming both. What was it? Can we establish what

17 it was actually?

18 A. The carpets in the room, they were already soaked with some sort

19 of liquid, like oil or fuel or something. I didn't say it was gas, but

20 the carpets on the floor were soaked in something so as to burn more

21 quickly. And the bomb you mentioned was dropped in front of the door, not

22 into the crowd.

23 Q. How was this burning started? Was it with gas, as it says here, a

24 bomb, or these soaked carpets? How did the fire start? Can we establish

25 that?

Page 25635

1 A. I think, Mr. Milosevic, when something is sprinkled on the floor,

2 it's sufficient to light a match. You know how this happens.

3 Q. Of course I do know when you soak something with gas, but you're

4 talking about a bomb and a fuse.

5 A. Well, there was something else at the entrance, at the door, to

6 kill the people, to prevent people from being able to escape through the

7 door.

8 Q. But in this statement to the security centre, you say that Lukic

9 opened a burst of fire into the floor so as to prevent the people from

10 fleeing, whereas in your statement to the investigators, you just say he

11 had a bomb and the other two had rifles?

12 A. This device was dropped before a burst of fire was opened into the

13 door. And when they shot at the window, it wasn't in a burst, but

14 individual shots.

15 Q. I have to say to you that this sounds rather confusing to me

16 because in your statement to the investigators, page 6, paragraph 2, you

17 say that [redacted] jumped out of the window just when the

18 bomb exploded. Is that right? So there was an explosion, not just

19 burning but also a bomb that exploded?

20 A. I said a moment ago I didn't want to name who jumped out of the

21 window, but you're still naming those people.

22 Q. But the point here is for you to say that somebody jumped out of

23 the window when there was an explosion. Is that right?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. So was there a bomb that exploded, or was there a gas, or was

Page 25636

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

Page 25637

1 there carpet soaked and sprinkled with a liquid? What was it?

2 JUDGE MAY: I think the witness has --

3 A. What exploded? What went off?

4 JUDGE MAY: Just tell us again, once more for the benefit of the

5 accused, what happened, and then we'll move on to a separate topic.

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] When the woman jumped out of the

7 window, then I threw out my son as well. And two or three minutes later,

8 I jumped out, too. I was wounded in my left arm and left leg.

9 JUDGE MAY: Yes, before that, when the device was put in the room,

10 and you've described the way in which the carpet had been sprinkled with

11 some material or other, what happened when the device was put in the room.

12 Just tell us briefly.

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The device was put in front of the

14 door. And as the fuse was burning, eventually it exploded. Whereas there

15 was fire spreading in the room, the carpet started burning. Just then,

16 Lukic fired a burst, and then he was under the window while these people

17 were jumping out to prevent the people from jumping out.

18 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

19 Q. Yes, but please, you explained that someone jumped out of the

20 window, and as you say, you don't want to name those people, and just when

21 the bomb went off. After that, you say, "While in those few minutes I was

22 thinking what I should do, I was hit by a fragment in the leg, and I was

23 burnt by the flame."

24 A. Yes, and on the hand.

25 Q. How could a shrapnel hit you several minutes after the bomb

Page 25638

1 exploded?

2 A. The shrapnel ricochetted probably from the rifle shot through the

3 window, and then it flew through my leg.

4 Q. So I see. That was the shrapnel that hit you three minutes after

5 the bomb exploded, so it was a bullet that ricochetted, that came through

6 the window and ricochetted from the wall. Is that what you mean?

7 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, under these circumstances, how could

8 this witness possibly know the source of a piece of shrapnel that hit her

9 in the leg.

10 JUDGE MAY: Yes, this kind of detail is of no assistance, really.

11 Mr. Milosevic, you've now had more than an hour and it's coming to

12 time for an adjournment. We'll consider how long you should have. Are

13 you asking for more time with this witness? Is there much more you want

14 to ask her?

15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Not much more. But I need a little

16 more time, I do, Mr. May. And I agree with Mr. Groome that under such

17 circumstances, it is difficult for anyone to see everything with

18 precision, and it is also difficult for the witness to describe that she

19 knows exactly that she was shot at by precisely Milan Lukic. She knows

20 this with precision. But agree with Mr. Groome that in such circumstances

21 and in a state of panic, it is really difficult to register every little

22 detail.

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Because I saw him very well,

24 Mr. Milosevic.

25 JUDGE MAY: We're going to adjourn now. What we'll do is give you

Page 25639

1 10 minutes more.

2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I think that will be quite enough,

3 Mr. May.

4 JUDGE MAY: Yes, we're going to adjourn. Witness B-1054, don't

5 speak to anybody, please, about your evidence until it's over. And that

6 does include the members of the prosecuting team.

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

8 --- Recess taken at 10.31 a.m.

9 --- On resuming at 10.55 a.m.

10 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Milosevic.

11 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

12 Q. Mrs. 1054, in relation to these injuries that you sustained and

13 that you speak about, you attached the discharge paper from the hospital,

14 and I have a copy here.

15 A. Yes, I did.

16 Q. With relation to this, I have just a couple of questions. From

17 what I see in the discharge paper -- and you say you were wounded in your

18 left arm and left leg, and you had burns on your arm. From what I see in

19 the letter of discharge, I suppose that Mr. May, Kwon, and Robinson, in

20 view of their profession, know the Latin language well, it says here in

21 the diagnosis: "Wound inflicted by a fragment of the bullet in the

22 shoulder area." That is the first wound indicated, "una slapitaria jonas

23 brak," [phoen] that is the shoulder. And the second one is a multiple

24 fracture of the upper arm, something completely different to what you

25 describe as your wounds.

Page 25640

1 Tell me, finally, how did you, in fact, sustain this injury from a

2 fragment of a bullet in your upper arm?

3 A. I did not sustain any other injury than a bullet injury in my left

4 arm. Here, look, if you want to see it. And above the knee, on my left

5 leg, I had an entry and exit wound. Here on my arm is where the bullet

6 came in, and on the other side where it came out.

7 Q. All right. Another thing you say in the statement given to the

8 security centre in Zenica --

9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] And I suppose that this letter of

10 discharge has been exhibited. If it hasn't, I would like to tender it.

11 JUDGE MAY: Before we go on to that, Mr. Groome, have you got that

12 document, the letter of discharge?

13 MR. GROOME: Yes, we do, Your Honour.

14 JUDGE MAY: If you could produce it, and we'll give it the next

15 exhibit number.

16 MR. GROOME: Yes, Your Honour.

17 JUDGE MAY: Next Defence number, please.

18 THE REGISTRAR: It will be Exhibit 177, Your Honours. Thank you.

19 MR. GROOME: And again I'd ask that that be under seal since it

20 identifies the witness.

21 JUDGE MAY: Yes, under seal.

22 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

23 Q. And you say in this statement that you spent 22 days in the

24 hospital in Gorazde.

25 A. Yes, 22 days. Maybe more. I didn't count. In any case, there

Page 25641

1 was no place where I could lie in, so I went there to be re-bandaged.

2 Q. So 22 days or more. In the letter of discharge, however, it says

3 that you spent exactly 10 days there, from the 23rd June, 1992, until the

4 3rd of July, 1992.

5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] And gentlemen, regardless of whether

6 it has been translated or not, the letter of discharge is very clear

7 because the dates are very legible.

8 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

9 Q. How do you explain this discrepancy? Did you make a mistake?

10 A. I couldn't have been mistaken. There are doctors who admitted me

11 on the spot, and they could come here and explain even better than I am

12 doing.

13 Q. That's what it says here, and you spent not 22 days or more, but

14 ten days.

15 JUDGE MAY: The witness has answered that.

16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, the witness did answer. That's

17 not what I'm doubting. I'm doubting the substance of that answer.

18 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

19 Q. Mrs. 1054, I want to clarify only one other matter: As far as I

20 can see from these papers, the investigators showed to you the photographs

21 of ten different men for identification purposes so that you can identify

22 the men who allegedly participated in the events you recounted.

23 A. Not ten, but the photographs of people who are charged with it.

24 Q. I'm just viewing the documents that I have received from

25 Mr. Groome. You say in your brief witness statement, where it says in

Page 25642

1 handwriting "amended on the 21st of July," ERN number 0108792, "The

2 investigator showed me a series of ten photographs -" this is written by

3 you - "marked with numbers from 1 to 10." And in the next paragraph, it

4 says: "You asked me whether I can identify any of the men. My answer is

5 yes. I can identify the man in the picture number 4. It is Mitar

6 Vasiljevic, whom I used to know. He used to be a waiter working at a

7 hotel. I mentioned him earlier in the statement that I have signed."

8 A. Yes, yes. I knew Mitar very well, and I recognised him from the

9 picture.

10 Q. And you go on to say: "I do not know the men on the other

11 photographs."

12 A. I don't want to say anything about those I don't know. I knew

13 him, and I confirmed his identity.

14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I would kindly ask you, Mr. May, in

15 view of the fact that this witness was shown ten photographs, out of which

16 she recognised only one as Mitar Vasiljevic, I would kindly ask you to ask

17 Mr. Groome if he could clarify the identity of these other ten persons,

18 because I would very much like to know whether the other nine include any

19 of the men that the witness referred to and allegedly recognised at the

20 time when the events took place, according to her statement.

21 JUDGE MAY: Yes, we'll get the Prosecution to do that. You can do

22 it in written form if you can.

23 MR. GROOME: I can simply explain now, if it pleases the Court.

24 JUDGE MAY: Yes.

25 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, this was an identification procedure

Page 25643

1 done to test the witness's ability to identify the perpetrators of this

2 event. The only person -- the only photograph in this series of

3 photographs that has anything to do with this event is number 4,

4 Mr. Mitar Vasiljevic. The other photographs are of people that have

5 absolutely no connection with the events of Visegrad in any way

6 whatsoever.

7 JUDGE MAY: Very well.

8 Anything else, Mr. Milosevic?

9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, in that case, I have only one

10 more question.

11 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

12 Q. Mrs. 1054, even if everything had happened as you say it happened,

13 tell me this: In your description of events, nobody from the JNA or

14 Serbia is mentioned. Is that so?

15 A. I didn't say that anybody from the JNA was there at that moment.

16 Q. So you knew all these people that you mentioned, and all those

17 people were from the neighbouring village.

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Thank you.

20 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Tapuskovic.

21 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours. I have

22 only one request to make, to avoid misunderstanding. I don't want anyone

23 to think that these casualties are not real. I don't want you to

24 misunderstand me as dealing with that part. That was never my aim, and it

25 is not now. I just want to draw your attention to page 3, paragraph 4, of

Page 25644

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

Page 25645

1 the English transcript. In fact, the English version of this witness

2 statement because that's what I would like to start with.

3 Questioned Mr. Tapuskovic:

4 Q. [Interpretation] Mrs. Witness, if you could be so kind as to look

5 at page 3 of the statement you gave to the investigators in 1998. Look at

6 what you stated: "On our way to the Red Cross building, we passed by the

7 SUP building. And Grujic and Lipovac told us to go to the Red Cross

8 building. Grujic and Lipovac went into the SUP building and stayed

9 there." Was that how it was?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Is the next sentence, then, true? "So we continued unescorted to

12 the Red Cross building, but there was no one there because it was a

13 Sunday."

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And then you came across some policemen who cursed you.

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. But in the last sentence of that paragraph, you say: "They did

18 not guard us, but all the time they were just passing by, going to and

19 fro." They did not ask anything of you? They didn't say anything?

20 A. No, they didn't ask anything. It was all in the street under the

21 lindens, the linden trees. The only question was addressed to us by this

22 policeman whom we didn't know. We just said that we were going, and we

23 didn't know where we were going.

24 Q. All right, but two paragraphs below. In the middle of that

25 paragraph, it says that you were going along the main street of your

Page 25646

1 neighbourhood towards the houses of Jusuf Memic and Mujo Memic, and the

2 Serb police did not escort you. So you went there unaccompanied. Is that

3 correct?

4 A. They said, "Just go there, nobody would harm you, and you can try

5 to settle there."

6 Q. All right. But when you came to that house where what you

7 described happened, you said that not a single soldier stayed behind to

8 guard you. And you explained: "We were too frightened to try to leave."

9 A. Who would guard us there? They just put us up there. And when

10 they came to loot our houses, they returned to set us on fire. Mitar

11 Lukic and this Mitar Vasiljevic and all the others, I don't want to

12 enumerate them.

13 Q. But on your way to that house where everything else later

14 happened, nothing happened.

15 A. No, not on the way.

16 Q. Just look at this statement given on the 14th of August, 1995.

17 That is much earlier than this statement given in 1998. Please look at

18 how you described this in this statement, that is, paragraph 3 of that

19 statement. "When we arrived in front of the Red Cross building in

20 Visegrad, the Serb police arrived. Among them I recognised [redacted]

21 [redacted]. They drove us all the way to the

22 Drina bridge." And then you say: "I saw around 150 people, women and

23 children, whom Chetniks were driving to the bridge, and the Chetnik -- a

24 bearded Chetnik around 50 years of age was slaughtering them while the

25 others were throwing them into the water."

Page 25647

1 Is this how it happened, what you saw on that road on your way?

2 A. Yes, all this happened, but I don't have any more forbearance to

3 go on recounting it. The river was red with blood.

4 Q. But you didn't say this in 1998, and even the other witness who

5 was heard by this Court did not mention this, because if everything

6 happened exactly as you described here, then it is simply impossible for

7 you to have failed to mention this to the OTP investigators.

8 A. I omitted a lot of things because I simply can't stand speaking

9 about them any more. I am overwhelmed by sadness and anguish, and

10 everything is exactly as I stated it.

11 Q. You described that on that day, nobody accompanied you. You said

12 that in 1998 and --

13 JUDGE MAY: The witness has given her explanation,

14 Mr. Tapuskovic.

15 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] No, she did not give an

16 explanation --

17 JUDGE MAY: It's not helpful. You've heard what this witness has

18 said. You have pointed out the discrepancy. It will be a matter for us

19 to consider whether there's any significance in it or not. Now, you've

20 carried out your duty. Is there anything more you wish to ask the

21 witness?

22 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, of course, I do have

23 questions. I don't understand your anger. I'm just trying to assist.

24 You should, of course, believe this witness; it's up to you.

25 JUDGE MAY: You will not address the Trial Chamber in those words.

Page 25648

1 It is not proper for counsel to use them. You remember your position.

2 Now, you're supposed to be helping this Trial Chamber. The witness has

3 given an explanation for the discrepancy, and you should move on.

4 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] I'm only trying to be of

5 assistance. I'm not trying to do anything else.

6 JUDGE MAY: Do not continually reply back. Just get on with your

7 next question.

8 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] If I may, just a couple of

9 minutes, because I have to pull myself together after this, if you can

10 believe it.

11 Q. Here is how you described in your statement of the 12th and 13th

12 of February, 1998, the events involving those two young girls. You said

13 this on page 4, last paragraph. You said that these two girls had been

14 taken away, and when they came back their clothes were in order, only

15 their expressions had changed. You didn't notice anything else about

16 them?

17 A. I just said about Jasmina Vila, that she was so full of bite

18 marks, as if she was an eaten potato. And the other two also refused to

19 say any more about what happened when we asked them.

20 Q. But on that occasion, you mentioned only two girls, and you said

21 you hadn't noticed anything in particular about them except that their

22 expressions had changed. But when questioned in this earlier case, you

23 mentioned three persons, not two. And on that occasion, you said

24 something different. You said that those two or three persons, when they

25 returned, had their buttons torn off, their clothes were torn - that is on

Page 25649

1 page 1.441 - and you saw bite marks on them. And you also mentioned that

2 they had been taken away and returned after a while. There is a slight

3 difference.

4 A. As for the buttons being torn off, there was a girl who didn't

5 want to take her clothes off herself, so they had to tear them off her.

6 Q. Now, explain this, please: In your statement given in the

7 security centre on the 14th of August, you said that what they had gone

8 through, they had gone through in the neighbouring room, and you heard

9 both screams and cries for help, and immediately after that, you were able

10 to see what had happened to them. Those are two different explanations.

11 How do you explain that?

12 A. Yes, in the neighbouring room. Jusuf Memic's house was large. I

13 don't even know all the rooms. In one room they put us up in the first

14 place. In another room, they took our valuables away. If I attempted to

15 recount everything in every detail, I would simply break down. I would

16 have to be on medication. That's why I omitted a lot of things. I was

17 trying to tell you the best way I could for the Judges to hear.

18 Q. I'm just going to read to you part of what this witness said about

19 what happened in this house, how fire was set on the house in one

20 statement and in another statement given to the officials of this

21 Tribunal.

22 I would like you to explain to the Trial Chamber how come that you

23 learned that your child was alive only after five years?

24 JUDGE MAY: Let us consider for a moment what you're doing. Are

25 you suggesting that this witness is not telling the truth? Is that the

Page 25650

1 suggestion, that this incident with the fire and the civilians did not

2 happen? Is that the suggestion?

3 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I'm telling you yet

4 again what I have been saying all along: It is not for me to decide at

5 all; it is for you to assess the validity or invalidity of all statements.

6 JUDGE MAY: But what is the point? Let's think for a moment.

7 What is the point? You pointed out some discrepancies in the witness's

8 account. Now, unless it's suggested that this witness was not in the

9 house, that it was not set fire to, and a large number of people were not

10 killed, I'm not sure that we're taken very much further because she has

11 given details in different statements. What is it that you want us to

12 decide in this case?

13 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, really, even if you

14 take action against me that you deem necessary, I have to say that I have

15 been a lawyer for 40 years, and believe me, I'm always in a position to

16 put questions on the basis of which you will assess whether a statement is

17 valid or not. That is not for me to judge. I put questions, and then you

18 are going to assess what this witness says. And I deeply believe that you

19 are going to assess all these facts.

20 JUDGE MAY: We know all that. But I'm asking you to consider and

21 explain for a moment how we're assisted by the fact that there are

22 discrepancies in her account. The overall account that this happened has

23 not been challenged by the accused, that these people were in the house,

24 it was set fire to, they were burned. Now, the precise detail of how that

25 happened does not appear at the moment to matter very much. It's not

Page 25651

1 being suggested this witness is not telling the truth about it. So I'd

2 like you to consider, when you're reflecting on what questions you want to

3 ask, not simply to ask because there are discrepancies, but to see if

4 there's any point in the cross-examination.

5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May, I have an objection. You

6 say that I did not dispute this. No one in Serbia has ever heard of these

7 events. It is so incredible. People would have had to have heard about

8 this kind of thing if people had been burned down in houses in this way.

9 It's not at the other end of the world; it's in a neighbouring republic.

10 So what does this mean, that I did not challenge it or dispute it? Do we

11 have to -- they have to prove that this happened. It's not for me to --

12 JUDGE MAY: Just one at a time. We now understand the position,

13 that the accused challenges that this ever occurred at all.

14 Yes, Mr. Tapuskovic, ask your questions, but don't, please, take

15 up too much time about it.

16 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Of course I shall not, Your

17 Honour Judge May. But please take a look at this: The witness spoke

18 about yet another event. She said that she had just heard this.

19 Q. But please, Madam Witness, look at page 7. Before this list that

20 you give, you wrote here, or rather, stated: "After that, in some house

21 in Bikavac, 80 people were put up. [redacted].

22 I did not see this, but I heard the screaming coming from this house and I

23 smelled the smell in the air coming from the direction of Bikavac."

24 Is it true that in a way, you were the eyewitness of this other

25 group of victims, these 80 victims, that you experienced this, too?

Page 25652

1 A. Sir, Bikavac and Nova Mahala are not kilometres away. This is a

2 short distance. It's 5 minutes away, if you can put that way, one from

3 each other. And of course 80 people did burn down, 80 souls. And since

4 you claim that this did not happen, there is this glorious court here and

5 let them decide.

6 Q. Can you just explain to the Court how come this kind of list of

7 victims was compiled? I'm not challenging that these people lost their

8 lives, but these names and surnames, how was this list made? Were these

9 bodies first found as of people who had lost their lives, or did you just

10 list these names without knowing whether these people had lost their

11 lives?

12 A. At Adem Omeragic's house where we were burned down, all the names

13 were written down and I identified that in Bikavac. And I did not count

14 them. But Zehra, who is the survivor, this young girl, she can say who

15 was up there. And as for the people who were there with me, there are all

16 the names and surnames listed.

17 Q. Just one more thing: Your very own child reappeared safe and

18 sound. Thank goodness that this happened. Now, on the basis of what can

19 we know for sure that all of these people have lost their lives?

20 A. Yes, so you're saying that my son should have lost his life, too?

21 Q. Heaven forbid, but just, it's possible.

22 A. From this house that was burning, I first threw out my son. Two

23 or three minutes after him, I jumped out. So when I was wounded in the

24 left arm and leg, I thought that I had died, that I was killed because I

25 went numb. A few minutes later, I came to, and I realised that I was

Page 25653

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

Page 25654

1 wounded in the arm and leg. So I don't think this is a lie.

2 And a few minutes ago, Mr. Milosevic, what he said, that people in

3 Serbia have never heard of these burnings, then he should look at the

4 cemetery in Potocari and see what happened there. And I think that he's

5 saying that he hasn't even heard of Potocari.

6 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours. I do

7 apologise if there was a misunderstanding, but I truly believe that this

8 is not outside the spirit and the actual job of an amicus curiae. Of

9 course it is for you to assess the facts but it seems to me that these

10 questions should be raised and could be of assistance. Thank you.

11 THE WITNESS: The Court should then decide --

12 JUDGE MAY: We're going to move on now. Yes, Mr. Groome.

13 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, I have no other questions, but should

14 the Chamber find that the issue with respect to Jasmina Vila, which was

15 raised by both the accused and Mr. Tapuskovic, be an important one, there

16 was other evidence in the case which the Prosecution would be prepared to

17 tender which indicated that she had been the subject of protracted and

18 repeated sexual violence, sexual assaults, by Milan Lukic in the days and

19 weeks preceding her eventual burning to death on this night, and we would

20 be prepared to tender that.

21 With respect to the other fire that now has been called into

22 question, the Prosecution is also prepared to produce --

23 JUDGE MAY: Just one moment.

24 [Trial Chamber confers]

25 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic and Mr. Tapuskovic, I believe that

Page 25655

1 when you are cross-examining as to discrepancies and the line of

2 cross-examination is such as to suggest that a particular incident did not

3 take place at all and that a witness is fabricating, you should actually

4 put it to the witness very squarely. It's not enough just to

5 cross-examine on the discrepancies. When Mr. Milosevic was

6 cross-examining on discrepancies, I said to myself that that line of

7 cross-examination would only be feasible if he was actually suggesting

8 that the incident did not take place at all. Put it squarely to the

9 witness that the witness is fabricating and let her give a response so

10 that there be no misunderstanding. Because this particular line is really

11 taken from the common law, and that is how it is done. You must put it

12 squarely to the witness that the witness is lying, fabricating, is making

13 up the entire story so that there is no misunderstanding and the witness

14 has a fair chance of responding.

15 JUDGE MAY: We don't need to hear evidence about the side issue

16 which you referred. But the witness should have the chance to answer the

17 question which -- the suggestion which has been made.

18 Witness B-1054, you've heard this discussion, and you've heard

19 what is now suggested by Mr. Milosevic, that he's never heard of this and

20 therefore it never happened. Now, you should have the opportunity to

21 answer that because effectively, what is being said is that you've not

22 told the truth about this house in which these people were and their being

23 killed in the way which you've described.

24 Now, it's suggested that isn't the truth. You should have the

25 opportunity to answer. Did it happen or not?

Page 25656

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, this truly happened.

2 But Milosevic did not accept this, whether we were burning, whether we

3 were killed. But it is the truth for sure. So when he claims that it's

4 not true that these people were burned down in this house and that I

5 survived that house, then how come all these people were killed in

6 Potocari, how come there are so many graves and graveyards? He hasn't

7 heard of that either?

8 JUDGE MAY: Very well. That concludes your evidence, B-1054.

9 Thank you for coming to the Tribunal to give it. You are now free to go.

10 Would you just perhaps until the blinds come down.

11 [The witness withdrew]

12 JUDGE MAY: Yes, we'll recall the earlier witness.

13 This is not a directed witness, is it, this one?

14 MS. BAUER: No, Your Honour.

15 JUDGE MAY: So we can have the blinds up and the screens removed

16 when we have someone to do it.

17 MS. BAUER: The witness's name is Mr. Josip Josipovic.

18 [The witness entered court]

19 JUDGE MAY: Yes, if you'd like to take a seat.

20 MS. BAUER: Your Honours, we concluded the summary yesterday, and

21 I think we are -- Mr. Milosevic is to cross-examine.

22 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Milosevic.

23 WITNESS: JOSIP JOSIPOVIC [Resumed]

24 [Witness answered through interpreter]

25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yesterday, I got this rather lengthy

Page 25657

1 statement of Mr. Josipovic. I shall go in the right order, but I just

2 want to make an exception at the very beginning. Actually, I would like

3 to quote the very end of the witness statement of Mr. Josipovic because I

4 got the statement in Serbian only yesterday. I had it in the English

5 language. I can say to you that in the statement in the English language,

6 that is the very end of the statement. That is 01067675. And then it

7 continues on page 76. But I'm going to read from the Serbian translation.

8 JUDGE MAY: If you're going to ask the witness about his

9 statement, he should have a copy of it in his own language. He has got

10 one.

11 Whereabouts in the -- do we have a paragraph number?

12 JUDGE KWON: Thirty-six.

13 MS. BAUER: In the second statement, Your Honours.

14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Paragraph 36, yes.

15 JUDGE MAY: If the witness could find that, please. Have you got

16 that?

17 Yes, Mr. Milosevic.

18 Cross-examined by Mr. Milosevic:

19 Q. [Interpretation] So throughout your statement, Mr. Josipovic, you

20 speak about various events that pertain to conflicts between the local

21 population, Serb, Croat, and Muslim. Isn't that right?

22 A. Only the Serb and Croat populations.

23 Q. All right. And then you talked about people being killed in the

24 villages of Bacin, Hrvatska Dubica, Predore, Tanac, Visnjica, Cerovljani,

25 and so on. Is that right, Mr. Josipovic?

Page 25658

1 A. That's right, Mr. Milosevic.

2 Q. Thank you. I'm going to read this paragraph out to you, this is

3 paragraph 36. Paragraph 36 of your statement where you say verbatim: "I

4 think that the killing of people in the village of Bacin, Hrvatska Dubica,

5 Predore, Tanac, Visnjica, and Cerovljani were ordered by Stevo Radunovic

6 and Momcilo Kovacevic. They were the commanders, and they were in charge

7 of the Serbs in the region. I know that Milan Martic came from Knin

8 several times and met with Radunovic and Kovacevic. Once when we were

9 collecting livestock, I heard the guards mentioning the name of Milan

10 Martic and that he had arrived with the helicopter that we saw. I heard

11 the guards say that the helicopter had to land in Zivaje. Radunovic and

12 Kovacevic were dismissed when the JNA and the JNA military police took

13 over the area. I think they were dismissed according to Martic's

14 decision. I think the orders to kill people in the area were taken by

15 Radunovic and Kovacevic. When the JNA and the military police took over,

16 the looting and burning stopped."

17 So these persons you consider responsible throughout your

18 statement were dismissed on the basis of Martic's decision, and the army

19 and the military police came. And you yourself say when the JNA and the

20 military police took over, looting and burning stopped.

21 Mr. Josipovic, doesn't this point to the fact that the JNA did

22 everything to stop all violence and to provide security for the citizens

23 themselves and for their property wherever they were?

24 A. Could you please repeat your question. I didn't understand the

25 question.

Page 25659

1 Q. I'm asking you, in view of what you said in your statement,

2 doesn't this confirm that the Yugoslav People's Army, where it came,

3 ensured the safety and security of the citizens and prevented a conflict?

4 A. Yes, because it had conflicts with the local population, with the

5 Serbs, the Chetniks. And in order to gain power, that's how they acted.

6 Q. Well, I assume that they acted the way you put it. They were even

7 in conflict with the Serb paramilitary forces in order to stop the

8 conflict between them and you?

9 A. That's right. And before that, they had helped them, given them

10 weapons and everything. And when they got out of control and they

11 couldn't handle them any longer, then they took all measures to stop them

12 from doing that.

13 Q. But when you speak about power in the area, you mention that those

14 people that you identified as being responsible were replaced by a

15 decision of Milan Martic.

16 A. That was my opinion, and that was what I thought at the time.

17 Q. And who else could have replaced them if they belonged to the

18 Serbian army of Krajina, or the police of Krajina?

19 A. The chief of the former JNA.

20 Q. I'm just referring to your own statement that they were replaced

21 by Martic. But let us go back to the beginning of the questions that I

22 have for you. You stated at the very beginning of your statement that

23 before the elections, relations were normal between Serbs and Croats in

24 Croatian Hrvatska Dubica. Is that right?

25 A. Yes.

Page 25660

1 Q. And in that same paragraph, you say that after the elections, the

2 Croats won a large majority and immediately after that formed the National

3 Guards Corps. Is that right, a military unit?

4 A. No, that's not right.

5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I didn't have time to highlight and

6 mark the documents I received yesterday, so I made my notes on the English

7 version.

8 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

9 Q. It says here: "Hrvatska Dubica was a small town with mixed

10 population, but with a slight majority [In English] of Croats living

11 there. After the elections in 1990, the HDZ party got a great majority in

12 the elections. Shortly after, the Croats formed a national guard called

13 Zenga. Zenga had a military structure. The Serbs had the Territorial

14 Defence. This was a reserve force for JNA that had been existing for many

15 years. The Croats that were in the Territorial Defence left in 1990 after

16 the elections. Before the elections, there were normal relations between

17 Croats and Serbs in the village.

18 "From the moment when the Zenga was established, the relations

19 between the Serbs and Croats in the village changed. There was a lack of

20 trust, and nobody felt safe any more."

21 [Interpretation] And so on. So my question to you was after the

22 Croats won a major majority at the elections, they formed a National

23 Guards Corps, a military structure. You said that was not so, and I have

24 just quoted what you yourself said. So was that right or not?

25 A. After the breakup of the former Yugoslavia, as Croats wanted an

Page 25661

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

Page 25662

1 independent Croatia, it was normal for them to set up Croatian power and a

2 Croatian army.

3 Q. That's not what I'm asking you, Mr. Josipovic, what is normal in

4 your opinion. I'm asking you in connection with what you said. In 1990,

5 immediately after the elections you formed a virtually paramilitary unit

6 called the National Guards Corps. Though you don't call it that, that is

7 up to you. But my point is that you immediately formed the National

8 Guards Corps as a military entity immediately after the elections. Is

9 that right?

10 A. Yes, Mr. Milosevic. And had Croatia lost this war, it would be a

11 paramilitary unit. But Croatia won this war, it won its own state, and

12 recognition of that state. Therefore, it was not paramilitary police or

13 army.

14 Q. It is common knowledge under what circumstances you were

15 recognised. But in any event, when this was happening in 1990, things

16 were quite different.

17 Mr. Josipovic, prior to that, you were doing your military service

18 in the JNA.

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. You know very well what a military structure means.

21 A. Yes, that's right.

22 Q. So in 1990, the National Guards Corps was formed as some sort of a

23 party army. Is that right?

24 A. I wouldn't put it like that, that it was an army of a party.

25 Q. Well, is it right that at the time Croatia was a republic within

Page 25663

1 the still-existing SFRY at the time you formed the National Guards Corps?

2 A. Yes, it was part of it, but it wanted to secede from the former

3 Yugoslavia.

4 Q. You say that the Serbs at the time had the Territorial Defence as

5 a reserve force of the JNA.

6 A. Yes, that's right.

7 Q. In what I quoted, it follows that it was no Serbian Territorial

8 Defence but it was the right and duty of all citizens of the SFRY, of the

9 citizens living in the area, and the TO was composed of both Serbs and

10 Croats; isn't that right?

11 A. Yes, it is.

12 Q. But when the National Guards Corps began to be formed, the Croats

13 started abandoning the TO and switched over to the National Guards Corps.

14 Is that right?

15 A. Yes, as they no longer trusted the TO.

16 Q. Did the Serbs in the area of Hrvatska Dubica have any kind of army

17 at the time which would be some sort of army of theirs?

18 A. Yes, they did.

19 Q. What kind of army?

20 A. The Chetnik band gangs.

21 Q. A moment ago you said that there was the Territorial Defence which

22 belonged to all citizens, and that the Croats abandoned it and crossed

23 over to the National Guards Corps.

24 A. In the former Yugoslavia, it was of all citizens, and everyone was

25 in the TO. But as everything collapsed and due to various developments

Page 25664

1 that occurred, it was normal for the Croats no longer to be suitable for

2 the TO and the JNA.

3 Q. What do you mean they were not "suitable"?

4 A. They didn't want to be in the TO and the JNA.

5 Q. Did anyone expel them from the JNA?

6 A. Yes, they did, and they threatened and they were in jeopardy.

7 Q. Do you know of anyone who was thrown out of the JNA because he was

8 a Croat?

9 A. I don't.

10 Q. You say on page 7 -- actually paragraph 7, page 2, that from the

11 moment the Zenga was established, there was a lack of trust in the area of

12 Hrvatska Dubica among the population.

13 A. That's right.

14 Q. That Serbs during the night crossed the Una to spend the night in

15 Bosnia and would come back to their homes in the morning. Is that right?

16 A. Yes, in the evening they would go because they were afraid of what

17 -- because what they had done on the other side of the Una River. And

18 then during the day they would return, to feel safe, like the other Serbs

19 who normally stayed on to spend the night in Hrvatska Dubica.

20 Q. They went away during the night not to be liquidated during the

21 night. They would spend the night on the Bosnian side and during the day

22 they would come back to work, they were peasants, farmers, they had to

23 take care of their farming work.

24 A. Yes, that's right. They went to join the JNA, their tanks and

25 Howitzers to open fire on their own Serbs, they really went there to get

Page 25665

1 information and everything else.

2 Q. Mr. Josipovic, are you trying to tell us now, even though you

3 stated something quite different in your statement, that some Serbs during

4 the night would cross the Una to spend the night in Bosnia to open fire on

5 their own Serbs on this side of the river?

6 A. Yes, that's what I'm saying, Mr. Milosevic, because that's how it

7 was essentially. When the Serbs went to the other side of the Una, those

8 who stayed behind were told to hide in basements and in other places so

9 that those who crossed the Una would be able to fire on us and the whole

10 population. And in some cases when a Serb was injured, normally they

11 would say that the Ustashas had done it.

12 Q. Very well. But you formed, immediately after the elections, the

13 National Guards Corps. The Serbs fled during the night to sleep in

14 Bosnia, fearing that they would be killed during the night, and now you're

15 saying that the Serbs were crossing the river to open fire on you and

16 other Serbs on the other bank of the river.

17 A. That's so.

18 Q. I see. So that's what you claim. That's very fine. Now, what

19 were the Serbs afraid of to make them cross the Una to Bosnia to leave

20 their homes unprotected?

21 A. You will have to ask them that.

22 Q. Very well. Mr. Josipovic, in paragraph 8 on page 2, you say that

23 the situation changed dramatically after the Territorial Defence, that is,

24 the Serbs, arrested eight men, among whom you knew two; Tomislav Mateljak,

25 and Predrag Vucicevic. Is that right?

Page 25666

1 A. Yes, that's right.

2 Q. Mateljak was a Croat, wasn't he?

3 A. Yes, he was. And this Vucicevic, he too was a Croat and still is

4 a Croat.

5 Q. I don't doubt that, that if he was a Croat then, that he is still

6 a Croat. And Mateljak, as you yourself say, in those days was the

7 commander of the National Guards Corps. Is that right?

8 A. Yes, that's right.

9 Q. Is it also true that you know, and that it was known then, too,

10 that Mateljak was a criminal?

11 A. I didn't know that at the time. I just know that he was an orphan

12 and that he was brought up by his grandmother.

13 Q. You say - and this is the last paragraph on page 1 of your

14 statement, I have the English version here: [In English] "Mateljak is a

15 criminal." "I consider Mateljak as a criminal. I know that Mateljak was

16 unemployed before the war. He was a tramp, and he lived in a small ruined

17 house in Cerovljani. However, after the party HDZ was founded, he

18 suddenly became a very powerful and rich person."

19 [Interpretation] So this is what you wrote, Mr. Josipovic. How

20 come you're now telling us that you didn't know that he was a criminal,

21 but you wrote this, that he was a tramp? I had never heard of Mateljak; I

22 never heard of you either before I received your statement.

23 A. It is not true. I didn't write that. I just gave a statement to

24 that effect, my opinion.

25 Q. Very well. But I assume they noted down what you said.

Page 25667

1 A. Yes, they noted down what I said.

2 Q. Well, that's quite sufficient, then. Who technically actually

3 wrote it down is not important; the important thing is that that was your

4 opinion.

5 A. Yes, that is my opinion.

6 Q. So Mr. Josipovic, a local criminal became the commander of the

7 local National Guards Corps. And as you say, when he came into power, he

8 became a very powerful and rich person in the HDZ. How do you explain

9 that fact?

10 A. My explanation is that the authorities at the time should have

11 needed people of that kind, and more such people.

12 Q. As he was such a person you yourself describe as a criminal and a

13 tramp, does it mean that the fear of the Serbs from that type of armed

14 unit, with a commander who was a criminal, such as this Mateljak was, was

15 justified, that it was justifiable that the Serbs should fear such an

16 armed grouping under the command of such a criminal, even in your own

17 opinion? Is that so, Mr. Josipovic?

18 A. No, it isn't. One cannot say that it was justified.

19 Q. So their fear was not justified, despite all these facts that you

20 yourself have given?

21 A. They had no need to fear anything. Regardless of the fact that I

22 consider him to be that, and because he did behave in that way and because

23 he was such a man.

24 Q. So he behaved in that way and was such a man, and he was in charge

25 of this armed formation, yet, in your opinion, the Serbs had no reason to

Page 25668

1 fear such a formation with such a commander?

2 A. That's right. I didn't say that he was a murderer and a criminal.

3 Q. Now, tell us now, to what extent were Serbs indeed terrorised by a

4 criminal such as Mateljak?

5 A. They were not exposed to any kind of terror at all.

6 Q. Nothing was done against them?

7 A. Nothing. Absolutely nothing.

8 Q. And you say that Vucicevic was the second person who was arrested

9 and that you knew. And on page 3, paragraph 2, you said that Mateljak

10 managed to get away and that Vucicevic was later on exchanged. Is that

11 right?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. So neither of them, although one was a criminal and another a

14 newly recruited member of the MUP of Croatia, came to any harm. Is that

15 true?

16 A. That's correct. With the proviso that he was shown on TV showing

17 what the Serb Chetniks and JNA troops had done to him.

18 Q. All of them together, Serb Chetniks, and the JNA, what did they do

19 to him?

20 A. I am still unclear about this today, who was Serbian Chetnik, what

21 was JNA, what was TO, and what were Martic's men, and whether they were

22 under the command of the former JNA.

23 Q. Since you are still unclear about this, I hope you understand that

24 absolute chaos reigned at that time.

25 A. Yes, but there were commanders of all these formations.

Page 25669

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

Page 25670

1 Q. So who were the commanders?

2 A. Well, I certainly didn't, if you did not.

3 Q. All right, Mr. Josipovic. But tell me, what did Vucicevic do

4 before he became chief of the MUP of Croatia?

5 A. I don't know.

6 Q. In the following paragraph, paragraph 3 on page 3, you state that

7 local Serbs, as you call them, were active in the region. All of them,

8 you say, were local Serbs, and they wore the same olive-green uniforms of

9 the JNA. Is that correct?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. So is it true, since you had done your military service just

12 before that, that all members of the reserve force of the JNA, or at least

13 the majority of them, regardless of which republic - Serbia, Bosnia,

14 Croatia, or some other republic - they were from, you know that all of

15 them had drawn these uniforms from the supply of the JNA and they kept

16 them at home so that when called up they could put them on and report to

17 their units?

18 A. Well, some of the men had uniforms. I didn't because I wasn't

19 issued with one.

20 Q. You did not do your military service?

21 A. No.

22 Q. You did not have a wartime assignment in the reserve force?

23 A. I think I did.

24 Q. But those who, as reservists or members of the TO, had uniforms,

25 does it mean, just the fact that they had uniforms after being discharged

Page 25671

1 from the army or the TO, does it mean they were members of the JNA?

2 A. Yes, they wore the star, the emblem of the JNA.

3 Q. When it started, they simply put on these uniforms that they had

4 kept at home?

5 A. I don't see any reason why they would put on these uniforms if you

6 say yourself that Croats and Muslims had the same uniforms. Why didn't

7 the Croats and Muslims put them on?

8 Q. Because they had a different attitude probably towards the JNA and

9 Yugoslavia. That's one thing. And another thing, I would not like to

10 lump everybody together because there were different Croats and Muslims

11 who stayed in the JNA and even occupied the highest posts. You know that

12 too, don't you?

13 A. I do, too.

14 Q. On paragraph 3 on page 3, you say after saying these local Serbs

15 were your neighbours, naming them, which means that those were people whom

16 you knew. Isn't that so?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Were any of them a member of the JNA?

19 A. No.

20 Q. Yesterday when asked about this, you said some of them were local

21 Serbs and others were from Bosnia and Herzegovina. Is that so?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. But those from Bosnia-Herzegovina, I suppose they had come from

24 nearby places across the Una River. None of them were from very distant

25 parts.

Page 25672

1 A. Yes. There were also people from Serbia.

2 Q. You didn't mention anyone from Serbia. Who did you see from

3 Serbia?

4 A. I didn't mention it because I wanted to be brief, to make this

5 procedure brief.

6 Q. But do you have a single name for a person who allegedly came from

7 Serbia, and where they came from exactly?

8 A. No, I was not in a position to find out. But there were a couple

9 of them who were bragging that they were from Serbia, how they were

10 involved in Vukovar and how they had come to take their revenge, to repay

11 a debt from the Second World War, against me.

12 Q. So you can't tell me a single name.

13 A. Even if I had known it then, I couldn't possibly recall it now.

14 JUDGE MAY: Let me just clarify something. When did you meet or

15 come across the couple who were bragging that they were from Serbia and

16 they were involved in Vukovar? When was it that you came across those

17 two?

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] When I was taken captive. I think

19 it was in October 1991.

20 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

21 Q. So in October 1991?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. How was it possible in October 1991 for anyone to tell you they

24 were involved in Vukovar? You know that Vukovar fell sometime end of

25 November 1991.

Page 25673

1 A. I don't know. That's what they told me. They were bragging.

2 JUDGE MAY: As a matter of accuracy, the siege began in August

3 1991. So it might have been possible for somebody to talk about Vukovar

4 at the time. Of course, it didn't fall, as the evidence is, until

5 November, but the witness can only say what he saw, what he heard.

6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right, all right, Mr. May. I

7 can't imagine who it could have been, what happened in Vukovar to talk

8 about on the part of the Serbian side or the part of JNA before October.

9 You should know that. You have followed evidence on these events.

10 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

11 Q. You say all of them wore a patch "SAO Krajina" on their sleeve.

12 A. Yes, they all wore different emblems, whatever they could lay

13 their hands on. Some wore Serbian cockades, others wore patches of the

14 SAO Krajina.

15 Q. You mentioned a certain Sarac who told you he was from Bosanska

16 Dubica.

17 A. From around Bosanska Dubica.

18 Q. This place is next to Croatian Dubica, near the other side of the

19 Una River, correct?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Is there even a kilometre between the Croatian Dubica and Bosanska

22 Dubica?

23 A. No, not even a kilometre. It is on different sides of the Una

24 River.

25 Q. So you say people from Bosnia-Herzegovina, you were talking about

Page 25674

1 your immediate, your next-door neighbours practically?

2 A. No. I just said there were some neighbours, but there were people

3 from more distant places, like Banja Luka, to mention one. Nedzad, and

4 all the other neighbouring places from Prijedor, for instance.

5 Q. But it's all from the immediate vicinity?

6 A. Within 80 kilometres, let's say.

7 Q. Let's move on, Mr. Josipovic. The second person you mention as

8 not being from Dubica either was allegedly from Vukovar. That's the one

9 you mentioned a second ago. Right?

10 A. Right. He bragged that his brother was killed in Vukovar, that he

11 had come from Vukovar and that he had come to take revenge for his

12 brother. He said the Ustashas had killed his brother during the conquest

13 of Vukovar.

14 Q. So again, you are talking about a Serb from Vukovar who was a

15 refugee from Vukovar, not anyone else.

16 A. No, he said he was from Serbia. He had fought together with his

17 brother who was killed in Vukovar, and most probably both he and his

18 brother were from Serbia. I didn't say he was from Vukovar.

19 Q. And you came across him in October, as you say.

20 A. I don't know exactly which month it was. I think it could have

21 been October, maybe the end of October. At that time, I didn't keep track

22 even of months, let alone days.

23 Q. All right, all right, Mr. Josipovic. We don't need that sort of

24 correction.

25 This Serb whom you mention in paragraph 4 ordered a Croatian

Page 25675

1 elderly woman to be buried, and she had died of starvation because nobody

2 attended to her in her village.

3 A. I suppose he died of -- she died of starvation. I didn't see any

4 injuries on her, no signs of bullet wounds.

5 Q. What was bad about his helping to have this woman buried?

6 A. The only thing that was bad is that, while we were digging the

7 grave for that old woman, when we were inside the pit, he was pushing the

8 rifle barrel into our mouths and he was hitting us with the rifle butt on

9 the head, and he asked us whether we would like to be killed inside that

10 pit and stay inside or bury the old woman first.

11 Q. Yes. That's what you say, but from what I can see, you are alive

12 and well and he didn't kill you inside that pit.

13 A. Yes, we said we would like to stay alive, we would like to bury

14 that old woman and stay alive.

15 Q. All right, Mr. Josipovic. How long were you with the National

16 Guards Corps?

17 A. About two months.

18 Q. Judging by your statement, you did not join up voluntarily.

19 A. No, because I was unfit for service.

20 Q. And who was it that recruited you despite your will into the

21 National Guards Corps?

22 A. I joined up myself because I had to, since I wasn't able to go to

23 work, and the only way for me to stay employed and not to get dismissed

24 was to join up with the National Guards Corps. And by virtue of that, I

25 got a certificate allowing me to come back to work eventually.

Page 25676

1 Q. Where did you work?

2 A. In Sisak on Croatia railways, the former Yugoslav railways.

3 Q. So you would not have been able to keep your employment if you had

4 not joined up the National Guards Corps; you would have been dismissed?

5 A. That is right because I wasn't able to travel, I wasn't able to go

6 to work; we were under siege. The war was going on. The only way was to

7 join up with the National Guards Corps. That was the only way I could

8 keep my employment.

9 Q. You say here: "In the end of June 1991, my brother, Dragan,

10 cousin Mico Coric and myself went to Kutina. [In English] We were not

11 members of HDZ, and we did not want to fight with anybody. We stayed in a

12 hotel in Kutina. The Croatian police found us and instructed us to go

13 back to Hrvatska Dubica. They told us that we had to join the National

14 Guard Corps Zenga."

15 [Interpretation] So it means that the police in Kutina instructed

16 you that you had to join the National Guards Corps, and you would not have

17 been able to keep your employment if you had failed to do that.

18 A. That's correct. After Dvor na Uni and Kostajnica were taken, we

19 had to leave because we were afraid of being caught up in the winds of

20 war. And we fled with the rest of the population and we ended up in this

21 hotel in Kutina.

22 Q. All right. Tell me, is it true that in the headquarters of the

23 National Guards Corps, you were issued with a weapon, and then you were

24 sent to a bridge between Croatian Dubica and Bosnian Dubica?

25 A. That was later.

Page 25677

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

Page 25678

1 Q. On that bridge, did you link up with the Croatian police who were

2 searching everybody crossing the bridge for weapons or anything else?

3 A. Yes, I did.

4 Q. Then you were under the direct command of this Tomislav Mateljak.

5 Is that correct?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Tell me, please, Mr. Josipovic, how many fighting men in total

8 were then under the command of this Mateljak man?

9 A. I don't know.

10 Q. You don't know the number of the unit that you belonged to?

11 A. No. I had no insight into that.

12 JUDGE MAY: The time has come to adjourn.

13 Mr. Josipovic, would you be back, please, in 20 minutes.

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I will.

15 --- Recess taken at 12.16 p.m.

16 --- On resuming at 12.41 p.m.

17 JUDGE MAY: Yes.

18 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

19 Q. Mr. Josipovic, on page 4 in paragraph 1 of your statement you say

20 that Mateljak issued you with a sniper rifle since, as you say, you were

21 trained in the JNA as a sniper. Is that correct?

22 A. Yes, I was a sniper shooter in the JNA. And Mateljak did give me

23 a sniper rifle, the hunting version of the sniper rifle.

24 Q. But as I see, you were -- this weapon was taken back from you very

25 soon after that. Is that correct?

Page 25679

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Tell me, what was the name of the officer of the Croatian police

3 who ordered you to shoot at the Serbs on the other bank of the river who

4 were observing in your direction?

5 A. I don't know.

6 Q. The Serbs you were supposed to shoot at, according to that order,

7 were they opening fire or were they just observing?

8 A. They were observing and they were shooting.

9 Q. I see that your orders were to shoot at the people who were

10 observing your side.

11 A. Yes, I suppose so. That's how I understood it.

12 Q. On page 4, paragraph 2, you stated that a couple of days later,

13 you were informed that a house of a Serb in your village, Stojan Bekic,

14 was burning.

15 A. That's correct.

16 Q. Then you went to your village to see what was going on. So tell

17 me, who set Stojan Bekic's house on fire?

18 A. I don't know.

19 Q. All right. You don't even mention in your statement the name of

20 the person who set the house on fire, but you say that the villagers told

21 you that JNA helicopters landed in the vicinity of his house.

22 A. Not in the vicinity of his house, but in the vicinity of our

23 houses in the village.

24 Q. So your houses. It had nothing to do with the house of the Stojan

25 Bekic which was set on fire?

Page 25680

1 A. I don't know who set it on fire, but most probably there was no

2 connection between the two things.

3 Q. So the house was set on fire just because it was Serbian. Right?

4 A. I don't know who set it on fire and whether it is and was a Serb's

5 house. I couldn't answer this question.

6 Q. All right. Did you, with your own eyes, see these JNA helicopters

7 on any one occasion?

8 A. Yes. When I came to the village once or twice to visit my

9 parents.

10 Q. On that occasion, as you say, the villagers told you that the

11 helicopters unloaded some weapons that were transported by a truck

12 belonging to the Elektra company to Zivaja and Sas villages. Is that

13 right?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. That's what you were told by the people who lived in the village?

16 A. Yes, it was their opinion. And later on, I went to check out for

17 myself and I did check out.

18 Q. When you say you found out what was going on, what do you mean?

19 A. The helicopter landed in the woods along the road where vehicles

20 and smaller freight vehicles were parked. I saw weapons being unloaded,

21 and all the other stuff. And behind the helicopter, they were unloaded on

22 to -- they were loaded on to vehicles.

23 Q. But you didn't see where those weapons were taken?

24 A. I know in which direction they were taken.

25 Q. In the direction of these villages that I mentioned?

Page 25681

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. And what kind of weapons did you see?

3 A. I saw automatic weapons, because the Serbs who had come to pick

4 the weapons up opened these trunks and took the best weapons for

5 themselves, the new weapons. And the rest they loaded on to vehicles. On

6 that occasion, I could see that the contents of the trunks were weapons.

7 Q. How much approximately?

8 A. Well, approximately four or five vehicles loaded with weapons,

9 maybe 50 to 70 cases.

10 Q. Now, tell me something about this train. You mention a train

11 which was coming from the direction of Novska. And fire was opened from

12 the train on Serbs from 50 and 60 millimetre cannons.

13 A. Yes. The train was using the railroad towards Bosanska Dubica,

14 and I was passing by carrying food supplies, driving food supplies to the

15 village. I stopped by to talk to friends and asked them, "What is this

16 train doing here?" And they told me: "Of course, they are shooting at

17 Serbs. They are defending. Dubica had fallen, and it is occupied by

18 Serbs." So they were covering the people who were withdrawing and the

19 troops who were withdrawing.

20 Q. And you saw the shooting from this train?

21 A. No, I didn't see that. I only saw the train.

22 Q. And you saw the weapons on the train?

23 A. Yes, it was something hand-made, done at the iron works, maybe

24 five or six hand-made mortars without the full set of equipment. It was

25 hand-held by one man while another was shooting. Other people were

Page 25682

1 pushing in shells. And they had some sort of improvised aiming device.

2 It was ridiculous to see.

3 Q. All right. Also, is it correct that the Croat forces during the

4 night between the 13th and 14th September, 1991, destroyed the bridge that

5 linked Bosanska and Hrvatska Dubica?

6 A. Yes, that's correct, and it was destroyed in order to stop the JNA

7 from crossing the river. And they didn't want the JNA to come in with

8 their armoured vehicles and weapons.

9 Q. Do you know who issued the order to destroy the bridge?

10 A. I am not aware of that.

11 Q. As far as I understand, from this statement of yours, on the

12 following day, on the 15th of September, you were arrested. Is that

13 right?

14 A. Yes, that's right.

15 Q. Do you know all the persons who were arrested with you on that

16 day?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. How many of you were arrested?

19 A. In my village, all the people who happened to be there were

20 arrested. Perhaps it was about ten persons or so.

21 Q. Yesterday, you spoke about eight persons.

22 A. Yes, I said eight. But it's the same thing, eight or ten. I

23 didn't count them.

24 Q. Who arrested you?

25 A. The Serb army, the JNA arrested us. The Martic people. I don't

Page 25683

1 know. The TO. Whoever. I don't know.

2 Q. Is that the TO from your village there?

3 A. The TO was registered as if it were from my village, but under

4 whose command they were, something I don't know.

5 Q. Did you know these people who arrested you?

6 A. I knew some. I didn't know others.

7 Q. They knew you, and you knew them?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. In your statement, the one you gave on the 5th of September, 1992,

10 in the municipality of Hrvatska Kostajnica, you stated that on that day

11 you were arrested by, as you put it, the local Chetniks, Mico Tepic, Vaso

12 Paukovic, a certain Rajko. Is that right?

13 A. Yes, that's right. Those are the names of the persons who I knew.

14 And those are the persons who I did mention, whose names I mentioned and

15 everything. I those didn't know, I didn't mention, of course.

16 Q. Is it correct that on that occasion, they interrogated you about

17 the weapons that you had and about the positions where the members of the

18 ZNG were?

19 A. Yes, that is right. That is correct, too. But before that, they

20 took five or six of us to be a human shield in front of them so that they

21 would go to the Sava River in order to reconnoiter to see where the

22 positions of the Croat army and the Croat MUP was, they had put it. And

23 then on that occasion, they asked us how many Croatian troops were there,

24 how many Croatian policemen were there and so on and so forth. And then I

25 said when we came to the Sava River, "You can see yourselves how long the

Page 25684

1 village is. It's perhaps 3 kilometres or 3 and a half kilometres long.

2 You can see how populated it is, and you can see how many people there are

3 there." I did not know how many people there were there.

4 Q. It was my understanding that in that village, as for the local

5 population, they only arrested you and Mico Coric. Is that right?

6 A. Yes, that's right. That was after they returned from this

7 reconnaissance mission because we were a human shield, as I said. The

8 rest were left alone, and they took us away. They took them away later,

9 though.

10 Q. On page 6, in paragraph 2, you say that while you were in

11 captivity, you were forced to repair the bridge. I assume that this is

12 the bridge between Hrvatska Dubica and Bosanska Dubica. Is that correct?

13 A. Yes, that's correct.

14 Q. And is it correct that in addition to you, who were taken

15 prisoner, local Serbs also took part in repairing the bridge?

16 A. Yes, people who were convicts.

17 Q. They were also arrested, weren't they?

18 A. I don't know whether they were arrested or taken into custody for

19 forced labour.

20 Q. You called them convicts.

21 A. That is what I called them. That is the name I used for them.

22 Q. Very well. In the statement you gave in Hrvatska Kostajnica you

23 stated that Antun Knezevic and Zeljko Abaza from Bacin were killed while

24 you were detained in the old school Dubicanka [phoen] in Hrvatska Dubica.

25 Is that right?

Page 25685

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

Page 25686

1 A. Yes, it is.

2 Q. But I didn't see in your statement, the statement to the

3 investigators of the Tribunal, that you mention anywhere the way in which

4 they were killed.

5 A. I don't know. Maybe it's an error that slipped through, but there

6 must be an explanation of that killing and everything else.

7 Q. Nowhere in your statement to the investigators did you mention

8 that Abaza -- Knezevic had his throat slit as you stated on the 5th of

9 December, 1992.

10 A. Whether they slit his throat or killed him, when they forced us to

11 load them on, when we came to, the first thing I noticed was that his

12 throat had been slit.

13 Q. But you didn't see them actually being killed, or how, nor by

14 whom.

15 A. That is true; I didn't see who killed them, how they killed them,

16 or with what, nor what happened to them. But afterwards, when I regained

17 consciousness, because they had probably been killed after I fainted --

18 they hit me on the head with a metal pole, I fell and lost consciousness.

19 From there on, I don't know what happened. But when I regained

20 consciousness, when they poured cold water on us, then I saw what had

21 happened to them.

22 Q. And then sometime around Christmas, you were in prison. Isn't

23 that so?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And who ran the prison? Who was in control?

Page 25687

1 A. I think it was the JNA that had taken over from the locals and the

2 TO. Simply, they replaced them. The JNA took over control and replaced

3 the TO.

4 Q. I see, so when the JNA came, they replaced them. And this is

5 linked to the paragraph I quoted from at the beginning, because when the

6 JNA arrived, there was no further mistreatment, was there?

7 A. Yes, you're right, there was no mistreatment after that.

8 Q. And is it true that it was upon the insistence of the Serb, Stojan

9 Bekic, whose house had been torched in your village, Predore, that you

10 were transferred to Prijedor from where, 25 days later, you were

11 transferred to Banja Luka. Is that right?

12 A. I'd rather not talk about that.

13 Q. Do you have any particular reason for not wanting to talk about

14 it?

15 A. Yes, I do.

16 Q. Could you tell us about it in private session?

17 A. I said that I didn't want to talk about it. I don't wish to

18 mention Mr. Stojan Bekic.

19 Q. Very well, I won't insist. Did anyone mistreat you in Prijedor or

20 Banja Luka?

21 A. As regards mistreatment, no one mistreated me until they found out

22 who and what I was. As soon as they learned about that, because I was in

23 the barracks in a dormitory where convicts were held who had fled from

24 Lipik, Daruvar, and Novska, and they were with me together and they

25 started talking, and through the conversation as to who we were, where we

Page 25688

1 were from and what we were doing, that is how they learned I was a Croat

2 and what I was.

3 Q. And they didn't know that before that, when you were arrested?

4 A. No, no one knew, none of the officers knew that I was such and

5 such a person. And that was the reason. Nor did they know why I had got

6 there, why I had come to the barracks in Prijedor. Later on when they

7 found out who I was and what I was, I was transferred to the guards' room,

8 again some kind of military detention for soldiers where they intimidated

9 me. They tried to frighten me, but nobody beat me or mistreated me or

10 touched me.

11 Q. At any point in time during the events that you are describing,

12 did you see a soldier or officer of the JNA mistreating anyone?

13 A. I did see JNA soldiers. Actually, I was mistreated in Prijedor.

14 Well, not really mistreated, just threatened behind a closed door. They

15 would beat on the door with their truncheons, with their belts, and other

16 such nonsense.

17 Q. They were banging on the door of the detention unit?

18 A. Yes, the detention area where I was held.

19 Q. But when the JNA arrived, all the torching, looting, and unlawful

20 action ceased. Is that right?

21 A. Yes, one could say so, more or less. One could say that the

22 authorities had arrived.

23 Q. Tell me, please, on the 7th to the 11th of March, 2002, you made

24 an additional statement to the investigators.

25 A. I don't remember.

Page 25689

1 Q. You don't remember this additional statement?

2 A. No, no, I don't know what you're talking about.

3 Q. Let me just try and find it.

4 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I took note of it somewhere.

5 MS. BAUER: Your Honours, it is part of the 92 bis package, yes,

6 indeed. The starting ERN number I have is 02167694.

7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I can't see this now. 76...

8 At any rate, there is an additional statement, as far as I can

9 see.

10 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

11 Q. This is about a year after you gave your first statement; is that

12 right?

13 A. Well, I believe it is so. Most probably it is, yes.

14 Q. At the beginning of this additional statement, you say that you

15 gave it of your own free will, and I wish you to explain it to me. Did

16 you yourself decide to give this additional statement, or did they ask you

17 to give an additional statement?

18 A. I decided myself to give this supplementary statement, because

19 when I was first asked to give a statement for The Hague Tribunal, I was

20 working in the meantime, and I didn't have time. So I wanted this to

21 happen as soon as possible. I wanted it to be as brief as possible, too.

22 I wanted to finish as soon as possible, that's what I'm trying to say.

23 Q. All right. Tell me, in this first statement, you did not mention

24 that these people who you accuse of having been responsible for that,

25 Radunovic and Kovacevic, that they acted on orders coming from Mile

Page 25690

1 Martic. As a matter of fact, in paragraph 36, the one I quoted to you

2 from the first statement, it is quite obvious that Mile Martic replaced

3 those two men. Isn't that right?

4 A. That was the objective of Milan Martic. Most probably they were

5 replaced. However, since they did not want to be replaced, I don't

6 believe that he managed to do that.

7 Q. Well, you yourself said that they were dismissed by him.

8 A. Yes, they were dismissed, but then they came back to power a day

9 or two later.

10 Q. Oh, so he came and he dismissed them, and then they came back to

11 these positions a day or two later; is that right?

12 A. Yes, that's right.

13 Q. So they were not working on his orders, at least that's for sure.

14 A. I don't know on whose orders they were acting, his or the JNA.

15 Q. Did you ever see Milan Martic?

16 A. Not personally.

17 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Milosevic, you must bring your examination to an

18 end because you're over time.

19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right. I'm going to bring it to

20 an end now.

21 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

22 Q. I don't understand this because you gave this supplementary

23 statement by the time I had been accused here. At whose initiative did

24 you give this statement?

25 A. I don't know whose initiative it was. At any rate, I gave it

Page 25691

1 voluntarily, this statement.

2 Q. You, yes, highlight that, that you give it voluntarily. Tell me,

3 did you give this statement by way of some kind of free interpretation or

4 did somebody put questions to you and did you then answer these questions?

5 A. Of course questions were put to me and I answered these questions.

6 Q. Oh, so they put questions to you and you answered them.

7 A. Yes, that's right. But I mentioned that during the first

8 statement I didn't have enough time, that my time was very short then, and

9 I could not say everything during that first statement. I couldn't

10 describe everything that happened to me within those five months, and I

11 got only an hour away from work.

12 Q. And in that first statement, you say that they were doing

13 something on the orders of Milan Martic, and that Milan Martic dismissed

14 them.

15 A. Yes, that's right.

16 Q. Thank you, Mr. Josipovic, thank you.

17 A. You're welcome.

18 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, I'm going to be very,

19 very brief.

20 Questioned by Mr. Tapuskovic:

21 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Josipovic, I would like to draw your

22 attention to paragraphs 12 and 13 of your statement. I don't know whether

23 I heard this. Perhaps I missed something. You speak of the month of June

24 1991 there. Have you found it?

25 You speak of the month of June. And in paragraph 13 you say, "We

Page 25692

1 were told to go to headquarters, to report at headquarters."

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. I'm not sure whether you were asked about this, that you were

4 given some old weapons, M48 rifles, in the month of June.

5 A. I don't really understand your question.

6 Q. Did you get these rifles in June?

7 A. No, I didn't. Because there weren't any.

8 Q. But here you said that you did get rifles.

9 A. I said that I did get rifles, but the rifles were hunting rifles.

10 Q. Oh, so they were not M48 rifles?

11 A. Well, perhaps it was a hunting rifle that had been transformed

12 into a M48, something like that.

13 Q. You said that you were not given uniforms, and you say, "I think

14 that all the members of the HDZ had uniforms then." Does that mean that

15 some civilians were armed too, in addition to the people who belonged to

16 the HDZ then in the month of July?

17 A. No. Those who were perhaps a bit more active, those from the HDZ,

18 of course, and those who were closer. The HDZ, et cetera, of course they

19 had equipment and weapons and uniforms and everything else.

20 Q. Can you explain to the Court why this was necessary in the month

21 of June?

22 A. I don't know.

23 Q. All right. And here in paragraph 17, so then that is the

24 following page, you stated: "Mateljak ordered that the civilian

25 population be evacuated from Hrvatska Dubica and the surrounding villages.

Page 25693

1 This came from President Tudjman. The villagers were very scared and all

2 civilians left." Is that the way you put it then?

3 A. Yes, that's what I said then, and that's what I'm saying now. The

4 reason for that was that Croatia, the Croatian police rather, and the

5 Croatian army, the members of the National Guards Corps did not have

6 sufficient manpower to defend the Croatian Dubica, Hrvatska Dubica. They

7 kept this for themselves. They had to leave, they had to withdraw. And

8 the very few troops they had were just there to secure the retreat of the

9 civilian population until the JNA came in.

10 Q. So in order to carry out certain military operations the civilian

11 population was order to leave that village?

12 A. Orders were given for the civilians to withdraw because, of

13 course, the Croatian army, the Croatian police could no longer keep up the

14 defence, of course.

15 Q. Were these people of Croat ethnicity who left these -- this area

16 on those orders?

17 A. Yes, they were Croats and Muslims. There were a few Muslims.

18 There were some Serbs, too.

19 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, thank you.

20 Re-examined by Ms. Bauer:

21 Q. Mr. Josipovic, when Mr. Milosevic asked you about the dismissal of

22 Radunovic and Kovacevic by Martic, did you make any personal direct

23 objections how Martic dismissed those two persons?

24 A. Yes. When Martic wanted to dismiss these two criminals, he simply

25 didn't dare come to Hrvatska Dubica to dismiss them. At the railway

Page 25694

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

Page 25695

1 station in Hrvatska Dubica, that's where the people who told me who were

2 with me at the farm, they had to stop there, and actually he was taken to

3 Zivaja. And that's where JNA headquarters were, or rather TO

4 headquarters, of Martic, of the army, of the police. I don't know, I'm

5 not sure. But those were the instructions that were given then in Zivaja,

6 that I don't know. And that these two in Hrvatska Dubica should be

7 replaced.

8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May.

9 JUDGE MAY: Yes.

10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I object to the question put by Ms.

11 Bauer. Actually, I have the English version here. The witness says very

12 clearly: "[In English] Martic's decision that they were dismissed."

13 JUDGE MAY: Yes.

14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] So it is quite undisputable on the

15 basis of his statement that Martic dismissed these people who did not act

16 in accordance with the rules that were part of legality. I think that

17 this speaks in Martic's favour. And I showed you that it was only in the

18 second statement, later, that this witness first mentioned that they

19 allegedly worked on some kind of instructions given by Martic.

20 JUDGE MAY: Listen, it's his evidence which counts. It's not

21 counsel's questions or your objections. Now, he has given his evidence

22 about this, and that's what we'll have to rely on.

23 Yes, I wonder if the registrar would come up, please.

24 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that's right, Mr. Milosevic,

Page 25696

1 but Momcilo Kovacevic and Stevo Radunovic while they obeyed Martic

2 everything was fine, but as soon as they got out of his control, he had

3 them dismissed because they had become disobedient and arrogant, and

4 that's why he dismissed them. And that's why I gave my opinion, that I

5 think that is most probably why he dismissed them. That is my

6 explanation.

7 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Ms. Bauer.

8 MS. BAUER:

9 Q. At the time he was dismissed, you were in detention. Is this

10 correct?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. So you came about -- who told you about the dismissal of Radunovic

13 and Kovacevic, who were the persons?

14 A. These persons were members of the JNA. It was the JNA army.

15 Q. And you personally, did they tell you in addition what the reason

16 was and did you give the reasons in an addendum to both statements about

17 two months ago?

18 A. I did.

19 Q. Could you say just in one sentence what was the reason these Serb

20 soldiers told you to dismiss Radunovic and Kovacevic?

21 A. The reason was that they had become disobedient, and most probably

22 because they had killed civilian population. Another reason was Zeljko

23 Abaza and Antun Knezovic , when they killed them, they should not have

24 killed them. They were supposed to be exchanged allegedly.

25 Q. Was Jovo Misljenovic as president somewhere involved in this

Page 25697

1 matter or did you hear about his involvement?

2 A. Yes. The president of the SDS party, Jovo Misljenovic, he had

3 conflicts with this Milojica, this Momcilo Kovacevic and Stevo Radunovic.

4 Threats were made and they shot at his house on one occasion. He managed

5 to get out. He left the village and went to Knin, and he told Martic what

6 the actual situation was like in the field. And I think that that is when

7 Momcilo Kovacevic and Stevo Radunovic were dismissed.

8 Q. Secondly, you said on questioning by Mr. Milosevic with regard to

9 Mateljak that you at the time didn't know that he was a criminal. Did you

10 form the opinion of him retrospectively?

11 A. Yes, that's right, later, after a while, yes.

12 Q. And you also considered -- you said that you didn't consider him a

13 murderer. So what was the reason why you considered him then a criminal?

14 A. The reason why I considered him a criminal was the fact that he is

15 a dishonourable man. There is no honesty or integrity in him.

16 Q. Did you in paragraph 8 of your first statement actually explain

17 certain reasons what you heard about Mr. Mateljak's post-war behaviour?

18 A. I don't understand this question. Could you please repeat it.

19 Q. Of course. In paragraph 8 of your statement, do you find

20 paragraph 8 of your statement?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Did you explain the reasons why you considered Mr. Mateljak a

23 criminal?

24 A. I considered him to be a criminal and a thief. And I still

25 consider him to be that because he was in that position after the war,

Page 25698

1 right after the war. And he reconstructed his house and everything else

2 due to the position he held as mayor of Hrvatska Dubica and everything

3 else.

4 Q. And what did he steal?

5 A. I don't know exactly. I mean, I cannot say what he stole, but I

6 consider him to be a dishonest man and a thief. And for me, all dishonest

7 people are thieves and criminals.

8 MS. BAUER: Thank you very much.

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You're welcome.

10 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Josipovic, that concludes your evidence. Thank

11 you for coming to the International Tribunal to give it. You are now free

12 to go.

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, thank you.

14 [The witness withdrew]

15 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Groome, the next witness.

16 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, the next witness is B-1505. There are

17 protective measures in place, so we will take, I guess, a few minutes to

18 prepare the courtroom.

19 JUDGE MAY: Yes. We have to break sharp at 1.45, so we may not be

20 able to get very far with this witness, but at least we'll make a start.

21 MR. GROOME: He is prepared to be here over the weekend.

22 Your Honour, while we're waiting for the courtroom to be prepared,

23 there are two administrative matters with respect to this witness. With

24 respect to protective measures, the 1505 has agreed that voice distortion

25 is no longer necessary. So I will query him about that, but there's no

Page 25699

1 necessity for that. And the second matter -- I don't believe we will get

2 to the video today. I put an extensive note about a mix-up between two

3 exhibits. This exhibit was marked for identification and was used with

4 another witness. Perhaps if the Court could review that note and on

5 Monday morning I could address the Court on the best way to technically

6 address this -- it's not really a problem, but just this mix-up.

7 JUDGE MAY: Yes, we'll get our packages of that witness.

8 [The witness entered court]

9 JUDGE MAY: Now, Mr. Groome, is there any reason why the witness

10 should not now take the declaration, or do you want to clear some matters

11 up first?

12 MR. GROOME: No, Your Honour, it's perfectly acceptable for the

13 witness to take the declaration.

14 JUDGE MAY: Let the witness take the declaration. If you'd read

15 out what's on the card, please.

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

17 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

18 JUDGE MAY: Thank you very much. If you'd like to take a seat.

19 WITNESS: WITNESS B-1505

20 [Witness answered through interpreter]

21 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, I think we probably should begin in

22 private session just to take care of the administrative matter pertaining

23 to the appeals judgement.

24 JUDGE MAY: Very well, we'll go into private session.

25 [Private session]

Page 25700

1 [redacted]

2 [redacted]

3 [redacted]

4 [redacted]

5 [redacted]

6 [redacted]

7 [redacted]

8 [redacted]

9 [redacted]

10 [redacted]

11 [redacted]

12 [redacted]

13 [redacted]

14 [redacted]

15 [redacted]

16 [Open session]

17 MR. GROOME: Your Honours, pursuant to this Chamber's order of the

18 30th of July this year, the Prosecution's application for the admission of

19 1505's testimony from the trial of Prosecutor versus Mitar Vasiljevic,

20 case number 98-32, was granted. The Prosecution would like to formally

21 tender one package of exhibits containing that transcript and the

22 pseudonym sheet for this witness.

23 JUDGE MAY: Yes, we'll give it the next number.

24 THE REGISTRAR: This will be Exhibit 523, Your Honours.

25 MR. GROOME:

Page 25701

1 Q. Sir, tab 2 of Prosecution Exhibit 523 has been placed on the desk

2 before you. Can I ask you to take a look at that and just tell us, is

3 that your name at the very top of that page?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Sir, the Chamber is in possession of your testimony and the

6 exhibit from your prior testimony in the Vasiljevic trial. I will not ask

7 you to repeat that testimony, but I do want to ask you a few specific

8 questions that are relevant to the proceedings in this case. My first

9 question to you is can you tell us what your best recollection is of when

10 the Uzice Corps of the Yugoslav People's Army arrived in the town of

11 Visegrad.

12 A. According to my recollection, the Uzice Corps arrived in Visegrad

13 on the 15th of May. I'm sorry, the 15th of April, 1992.

14 Q. And would you characterise the arrival of the Uzice Corps as a

15 significant or full deployment of the Uzice Corps?

16 A. Yes, I would agree with that.

17 Q. Prior to their arrival, did you see members of Serb paramilitaries

18 in the town or in the vicinity of Visegrad?

19 A. Prior to the arrival of the Uzice Corps, they were not in town. I

20 didn't see any of them.

21 Q. When did you first see them?

22 A. I saw them for the first time in the period when the JNA had come

23 too. It was in that period that I also saw the paramilitaries.

24 Q. Soon after the arrival of the JNA in Visegrad, did you have a

25 conversation with a JNA captain by the name of Vukosavljevic?

Page 25702

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Can you please describe or summarise for the Chamber the

3 conversation you had with this captain.

4 A. Yes. The conversation with Captain Vukosavljevic -- actually, I

5 had several conversations with him. The first conversation we had could

6 be reduced to the following: He told me that suddenly he had been

7 transferred from Macedonia and sent to Visegrad directly with his unit,

8 that he had heard about Visegrad mostly from the media and the sources

9 regularly used by the army. We spoke for about four or five hours. And

10 after such a conversation, he emphasised in particular that he had a

11 completely distorted image of what was happening in Visegrad when he

12 received orders to go to Visegrad, that he had imagined that the Serbs

13 were the subject of genocide there, that the Muslims were slaughtering

14 Serbs, that they were burning small children on the spit. But after the

15 conversation that we had, and after the conversation we had with captured

16 Serb policemen who were later released, he told me that this was a totally

17 distorted image and that he now had a proper idea what was happening that

18 differed from the one he had before as to what was going on in Visegrad.

19 Q. After the JNA arrived in Visegrad, were you summoned to a meeting

20 at their headquarters to meet with members of the JNA?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Who were you summoned to meet with?

23 A. They invited not just me, but also the president of the Municipal

24 Assembly of Visegrad, the president of the executive council. And I was

25 there, too. And the invitation came directly from Colonel Ojdanic - he

Page 25703

1 was commander of the Uzice Corps - for us to come to a nearby barracks

2 close to Visegrad for talks in connection with the problems that existed

3 in town at the time. And indeed, we went to that meeting where we met

4 with Colonel Ojdanic. And we talked about the situation in town, what

5 should be done to stabilise the situation, and more or less along those

6 lines.

7 But there were two meetings in that same barracks.

8 Q. Now, can I draw your attention to the second meeting. The second

9 meeting, did you go to alone or did you go with other people?

10 A. I went to the second meeting alone, since the others who were

11 there on the first day physically could not reach the meeting place, that

12 is, the barracks that was just outside town. It was called Uzamnica. I

13 was downstream in relation to the town --

14 Q. Sir, if I could just draw your attention to the point in time when

15 you arrived in Uzamnica barracks. Did you have to wait prior to having

16 your meeting on this occasion?

17 A. Yes. I came there. The others didn't arrive. The colonel hadn't

18 arrived yet either. Then I went inside to the office of the local

19 commander of that barracks - his name was Captain Boro - and I sat at the

20 table waiting for the meeting to take place, as it had done the previous

21 day. There were two or three officers also present sitting at the same

22 table. I sat next to them. We just exchanged greetings, hello, hello. I

23 didn't introduce myself in particular. There was no need. And so I sat

24 there for a while, maybe a couple of minutes, maybe 10 minutes. And then

25 another two officers walked into the office. They were carrying a

Page 25704

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

Page 25705

1 military map of the town of Visegrad. They put the map on the table, and

2 they started talking amongst themselves in connection with that map and in

3 connection with the deployment of military units that were in Visegrad at

4 the time.

5 As I was present, I naturally was interested in hearing what they

6 were talking about. And then one of the officers who had brought the map

7 started to explain to these others and to point to places on the map,

8 saying roughly as follows: "This part here is clean, and unit such and

9 such is there," giving the number of the unit. Then "This area is also

10 clear" and that is where this unit is. So he covered the entire right

11 bank of the Drina River with these explanations, and then he said:

12 "Tomorrow we'll be clearing this part, too," and he covered with his hand

13 a place where I knew there were at least three or four thousand Muslim

14 civilians.

15 Q. Sir, if I can just go step by step through this. The portion that

16 they indicated -- or he indicated initially, were you able to recognise

17 the areas of Visegrad that he was pointing to? Were you able to see on

18 the map precisely where he was pointing?

19 A. Yes, quite clearly.

20 Q. Can you please list places or the area of Visegrad that he was

21 pointing to.

22 A. Yes. When he said "this part is clear" and such a such a unit is

23 there, and he was pointing to a location just above the barracks, a

24 locality on the right bank of the Drina River, Velin Luk, Babin Potuk, and

25 towards Dobrun. That was one unit. And then he would go on to point to

Page 25706

1 Musici and other small villages, Gostilja, and then he would say,

2 "This is this part." And then when he says, "This part is also clear,"

3 that would be the area of the group of villages called Drinski. That is

4 how he described it.

5 Q. Now, based upon your personal knowledge of what was transpiring in

6 Visegrad at this time, what was going on in the villages that this JNA

7 officer was referring to as having been cleared?

8 A. What it meant was that there were no Muslim inhabitants there, so

9 the unit was stationed there, and the Muslim population was retreating as

10 the army arrived. What it meant was that there were no Muslim inhabitants

11 left there. That is what he meant when he said it was clear, or clean.

12 Q. What I'm asking you is, from your own personal knowledge, did you

13 know that fact to be true? Had Muslims fled those areas that he was

14 describing as having been cleared?

15 A. Yes, yes. I knew that already without him saying so because

16 people had come, and I saw them myself personally. There were some

17 relatives of mine from some of those locations. Then I was also informed

18 by phone that they had left the area, that the army had already arrived

19 there.

20 Q. At the time that you were looking at this map, did the officers in

21 that room, did it appear to you that they appreciated the fact that you

22 were a Muslim member of the Visegrad community?

23 A. No. I think they didn't know that. They couldn't even assume

24 that in the commander's office there could be someone who was not close to

25 the army, and especially not a Muslim.

Page 25707

1 Q. The areas that were indicated as "still needing" or "to be

2 cleared" the next day, did you recognise those areas on the map?

3 A. Very clearly, because that is where I come from originally. That

4 is where I was born, and my whole family comes from there. So I

5 recognised clearly the place that they felt needed to be cleared. And I

6 knew that there were three or four thousand people there.

7 Q. Will you now describe what happened after you viewed the map.

8 What did you do in response to what you saw?

9 A. Just then, I went numb. I was dumbfounded because I could already

10 imagine what the plan was for that locality. And all my family members,

11 including my wife, children, and parents, they were all there. So I was

12 paralysed for almost an hour. I couldn't utter a word properly. After

13 about an hour, and then I was assisted by some locals, I had a cup of

14 coffee, a glass of water, so I collected myself and came to.

15 Q. Did you speak to members of the JNA and insist or request that the

16 people in that area that had been indicated as "to be cleared," that they

17 be given protection?

18 A. Yes. Immediately after that, I insisted that we have a talk with

19 Colonel Ojdanic because he was due to come to the meeting anyway. But

20 they were saying that he may not come to the meeting since the others who

21 were supposed to come hadn't come, but only one man had come. And I

22 insisted that the colonel come and that we have that meeting, and that the

23 army protect the civilians which I feared could be exposed to genocide.

24 Q. Did you receive assurances from Colonel Ojdanic that the civilians

25 in that area would be given the protection of the army?

Page 25708

1 A. Yes. The Colonel, with some delay, did come to that meeting, and

2 he promised that the army would protect the civilian population there. He

3 explicitly made such a pledge.

4 Q. What happened the next day to those Muslims living in the area

5 that had been indicated on the map?

6 A. The next day -- the Colonel promised that the next day he would

7 gain control of the whole situation and protect the civilian population.

8 And the next day, in a conversation with Captain Vukosavljevic, who was

9 the barracks commander -- actually, the dam, the hydropower station, he

10 ordered him to go with a certain number of soldiers to that locality,

11 which is about 5 or 6 kilometres from the centre of town, to go there and

12 to form an organised column of those people and escort them into town.

13 And that is what was done.

14 JUDGE MAY: Sorry, we have to --

15 MR. GROOME: Yes, Your Honour.

16 JUDGE MAY: -- adjourn very sharply. Perhaps you can return to

17 this on Monday morning.

18 MR. GROOME: Yes, Your Honour.

19 JUDGE MAY: Witness B-1505, we're going to adjourn now. I'm sorry

20 we're not able to get your evidence in today. But could you be back,

21 please, on Monday morning to conclude it. Would you remember not to speak

22 to anybody about your evidence until it's over, and that does include the

23 members of the Prosecution team. Could you be back, please, at 9.00 on

24 Monday.

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. Thank you.

Page 25709

1 JUDGE MAY: We'll adjourn until then.

2 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned

3 at 1.47 p.m., to be reconvened on Monday,

4 the 1st day of September, 2003, at 9.00 a.m.

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25