Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 26352

1 Thursday, 11 September 2003

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 [The witness entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 9.04 a.m.

6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May.

7 JUDGE MAY: Yes.

8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] As today is Thursday, I seem to

9 have no schedule for next week, no timetable. And I think it's high time

10 that I got one.

11 JUDGE MAY: Yes. You should have had one, because we got one

12 yesterday, and you should have had it too.

13 Mr. Nice, what are we on? I think the 5th of September schedule?

14 Well, it's one that I've got.

15 MR. NICE: Yes. It's just been handed over now.

16 JUDGE MAY: Oh, there's another one coming up which is the 9th.

17 I'm sorry, I'm behind too.

18 Yes. Make sure the accused has it.

19 Yes, we'll -- let the witness take the declaration.

20 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

22 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

23 JUDGE MAY: Very well. If you'd like to sit down.

24 WITNESS: WITNESS C-007

25 [Witness answered through interpreter]

Page 26353

1 JUDGE MAY: And could you remember, please, both of you - this is

2 the witness, counsel, and the accused - to leave a pause between the

3 questions and answers. It's most important from the point of view of

4 security and also from the point of view of the interpreters being able to

5 interpret. So wait till the other speaker is finished before speaking

6 yourself.

7 Yes, Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff.

8 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Thank you, Your Honours.

9 Examined by Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff:

10 Q. Sir, there is a sheet of paper in front of you. On the sheet, is

11 that your name?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Did you testify in the trial of Mr. Dokmanovic under the

14 pseudonym Q?

15 A. Yes.

16 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honours, the Prosecution would like to

17 tender the transcript of the testimony and the exhibits used during the

18 testimony. And tab 2 is actually the name sheet used in the Dokmanovic

19 case that was just shown to the witness.

20 JUDGE MAY: Yes.

21 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit 535.

22 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: I will now summarise the evidence given

23 during the Dokmanovic trial and just with a few additional questions.

24 The witness is of Serb ethnicity. In 1991, he lived in Serbia.

25 Towards the end of August or beginning of September 1991, the witness

Page 26354

1 heard appeals for men to join the Serb forces for the battle in Vukovar.

2 He was aware that volunteers could either join the JNA or enlist in

3 special recruitment offices.

4 Q. Sir, I have a few additional questions: At that time, did you

5 hear any accounts in the media related to the Serb civilians in Vukovar

6 and what happened to them?

7 A. Well, they did say on television that they were being persecuted.

8 Q. And what media? That television, do you know which station?

9 A. Well, I can't tell you exactly - I can't remember - but I watched

10 television in Novi Sad, and they were all Serbian television stations.

11 Q. And did you believe the accounts that you heard on TV?

12 A. Of course.

13 Q. Did these accounts influence your decision to volunteer to the

14 Serb forces in Vukovar?

15 A. Yes, they did.

16 Q. Did you later on find that these reports were true, these

17 accounts of persecution?

18 A. Well, mostly the reports were exaggerated and weren't actually

19 quite true.

20 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: I'll continue now with the summary.

21 Witness C-007 went to the volunteers enlistment office. From

22 there, he was sent to Sid, where he was told to report to the TO command.

23 The TO command was generally referred to as ministry, with a certain

24 Bogunovic being the minister and belonging to the Goran Hadzic government.

25 The security command received directions from the JNA security officer

Page 26355

1 Petkovic.

2 The witness was issued uniform and weapons. At the TO

3 headquarter in Sid, he observed Major Kavalic from the Guards Brigade

4 attending a meeting. The witness attended training exercises with the

5 Guards Brigade and was subsequently transferred with the Guards Brigade to

6 Negoslavci, where the JNA headquarters was located. From there, he took

7 part in military actions in Vukovar from end of September 1991 onwards.

8 While in the JNA headquarters in Vukovar -- in Negoslavci, the

9 witness had to sign a document that enabled him to receive a salary and

10 compensation. Stories were spread among the conscripts about atrocities

11 perpetrated by the Croatian side. This caused an incredible phobic

12 atmosphere among the young conscripts. The stories enraged the young

13 soldiers and made them fearful at the same time.

14 Q. I have two additional questions, sir. While you were in the

15 Guards Brigade in Negoslavci and later on in actions in Vukovar, did you

16 and your unit receive your orders from JNA officers?

17 A. Yes, I did receive orders from JNA officers.

18 Q. During the fighting, did you make any observations as to the

19 weaponry of the Croat forces in Vukovar?

20 A. Well, the Croatian forces predominantly had hunting weapons. As

21 to artillery weapons, I think they had mortars -- 82-millimetre mortars.

22 That was the highest calibre they had.

23 Q. And in relation to an operation in the Blaz Jovanovic complex,

24 were you told anything about the number of the Croat soldiers that were

25 opposing you?

Page 26356

1 A. We were told that opposite us were strong Croatian forces,

2 between 300 and 400 men, which wasn't true. There might have been some 20

3 soldiers, in fact.

4 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: I'll continue with the summary.

5 Sometime in October 1991, the witness joined the TO of Vukovar.

6 The commander of the Vukovar TO was Miroljub Vujovic. The TO headquarter

7 was located in an area of Vukovar called Petrova Gora. The Velepromet

8 warehouse was at the old logistic base.

9 Q. Witness, just one question: Was there also a JNA post or

10 headquarters in Petrova Gora?

11 A. Well, there was a sort of command there, headquarters. I don't

12 know what kind exactly. I didn't have any contacts with it. And there

13 was some major there, but I can't remember his surname exactly now either.

14 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: The witness TO unit got several assignments

15 to clear certain areas, meaning to go from house to house and remove the

16 people in them. The witness took part in those cleansing operations in

17 Vukovar, among others in the neighbourhood named Supoderica.

18 Q. Witness, to clarify a matter from the transcript, did you -- did

19 anyone train you how to go about the task of clearing a house?

20 A. Well, I did have a short period of training before I came to

21 Negoslavci, that was in Sid, and it lasted for two to three days. And I

22 was given the necessary instructions there as to how to enter cellars, how

23 to search houses. Things of that kind, how that job was done.

24 And then later on an officer whom I knew, because he was from

25 Borovo - I knew him from before - he explained how we were to establish

Page 26357

1 whether there were any children in the cellar and things of that kind.

2 Q. Those civilians taken out of the houses, where were they taken?

3 A. The civilians were taken to Velepromet, as far as I know.

4 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: I'll continue with the summary.

5 Several incidents occurred during such cleansing operations. In

6 one incident, a Montenegrin volunteer named Cetinje was shot at by a man

7 with long blond hair. As a result, Cetinje killed all Croats with long

8 blond hair that they came across. In addition, Cetinje also killed people

9 with the surname Barisic due to a historical event. Another TO member

10 with the name Kizo, nickname, bragged that he and Cetinje were at

11 Velepromet executing civilians.

12 TO commanders held regular meetings at the house of Stanko

13 Vujanovic, who was also in a superior position. Among those people

14 attending the meetings was a JNA captain by the name of Radic. The

15 witness believes that he was actually staying in the house. The meetings

16 were often held in the evening before an action. Vujanovic's house was

17 also used as a warehouse for supplies, such as weapons and ammunition.

18 The witness understood Captain Radic's role to be a coordinator

19 between the TO units fighting on the left wing and the other units. The

20 TO cooperated with the JNA. General plans were made by the JNA, who also

21 supplied the TO with ammunition and weapons. The TO units got assignments

22 from the JNA but had a certain discretion how to go about it.

23 Q. Witness, one additional question: Was there a soldier with the

24 name of Stuka living in Vujanovic's house? And if so, how was he related,

25 if at all, to Captain Radic?

Page 26358

1 A. The soldier nicknamed Stuka was living in Vujanovic's house, and

2 he was a direct soldier of Captain Radic.

3 Q. This person, did he have a reputation of killing people, and did

4 you actually observe him doing that?

5 A. Well, I didn't see him directly killing anybody, but I did see

6 when he tried or, rather, when he went to throw a bomb into a WC, where

7 there were two members of Jehovah's Witnesses. Now, whether he actually

8 killed them or not, I don't know.

9 Could you just repeat the first part of your question, please.

10 Q. The first part was: Did he have a reputation of killing people?

11 A. Yes, he did have the reputation of a pathological killer.

12 Q. Did you come across a group of SRS volunteers that participated

13 in the military actions?

14 A. I don't understand what you mean by "SRS." What is it?

15 Q. Serbian Radical Party.

16 A. Yes. That's right.

17 Q. Where were they staying, and who was their leader?

18 A. Their leader was Kameni, and, well, there were quite a lot of

19 them. I think that when they arrived in Vukovar, there could have been

20 some 100 or 140 of them, I'm not quite sure of the number. But they were

21 stationed in the same street where Kameni and Stanko Vujanovic had their

22 houses. I'm not sure of those streets' name now. But as there were a lot

23 of them, I assume they were accommodated in the houses.

24 Q. Were they part of the TO in Vukovar?

25 A. Well, I can't quite be sure as to whether officially they did

Page 26359

1 come under the command of the Territorial Defence, but they did take part

2 in the war together with the Territorial Defence, so it would appear that

3 they were part -- it appeared that they were part of the Territorial

4 Defence.

5 Q. Did Vojislav Seselj visit them?

6 A. I saw him visit them once. Possibly he might have done so on

7 some other occasion as well.

8 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: I'll continue now with the summary.

9 TO members were involved in looting, as was the JNA.

10 Q. In relation to the looting and involvement of the JNA, did you

11 make any observation to this effect?

12 A. Well, the reason I left the JNA unit was because I reported that

13 some soldiers -- let me put it this way -- took from a house, my friend's

14 house, some jewellery they found there. So I reported this, and the

15 jewellery was subsequently returned, but that was one of the reasons for

16 which I had to leave that unit.

17 Q. And in relation to the looting, did you see any -- any shipments

18 to certain officers?

19 A. I was told once when I was a member of the Guards Unit that we

20 should help load up some boxes full of technical equipment, and the boxes

21 had the names and addresses of some officers on them who lived in

22 Belgrade. But I don't know what happened to them afterwards -- with them

23 afterwards.

24 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: I'll continue with the summary.

25 On the 19th of November, the witness went to the Vukovar

Page 26360

1 hospital. The fighting had stopped either on the 17th or the 18th of

2 November. The witness saw JNA military police at the gate. He also saw

3 TO members on the premises. The witness saw Veselin Sljivancanin in the

4 hospital courtyard. The witness had previously encountered him twice

5 during the military operations in Vukovar. Within the hospital, he saw a

6 group including Stanko Vujanovic, several TO members, and one of them

7 threatened to shoot Dr. Bosanac. Terrible stories were going around about

8 her, so that the TO member wanted to shoot her on the spot. On the 20th

9 of November, the witness was told that Vujanovic men had snatched a group

10 of Ustashas from the JNA soldiers. The witness, together with several

11 others, went to Ovcara. When they arrived at Ovcara, he observed buses

12 full of people parked close to the hangar. He went into the hangar, where

13 he saw several Serbs, among them Miroljub Vujovic, his deputy Djankovic,

14 Stuka, and several TO members. He did not notice any soldiers in or

15 outside the hangar. The soldiers at Vukovar formed two parallel lines and

16 forced the detainees to pass the gauntlet. The soldiers would severely

17 beat the detainees, using all kinds of objects, and also kick them. He

18 also realised that they were the people -- the detainees were the people

19 from the Vukovar hospital.

20 The witness saw at one point in time a high-ranking JNA officer,

21 probably a colonel, accompanied by another JNA soldier. The JNA officer

22 tried to talk the TO members out of beating the prisoners, but the

23 soldiers refused to stop. The JNA officer then left. No JNA intervention

24 followed.

25 Your Honours, I would now like to go into private session to

Page 26361

1 continue the summary, because it's now related to matters that may reveal

2 the identity of the witness.

3 JUDGE MAY: Yes.

4 [Private session]

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10 [Open session]

11 THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session.

12 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: While at Ovcara, the witness observed that

13 Miroljub Vujovic, the TO commander, was in charge.

14 Q. Witness, you mentioned during your testimony that huge harvesters

15 were working when you returned to Ovcara. Why was that?

16 A. Well, I don't know whether the interpretation was correct. They

17 were combine harvesters.

18 Q. Yes. And do you know why they were working?

19 A. Well, they were leaned -- leaning up against the outside gates.

20 As the hangar is a metal one, they were working to make -- create noise in

21 the hangar, to prevent the noises from the execution shots from being

22 heard.

23 Q. When you were outside the hangar, could you actually hear the

24 shots?

25 A. Of course. When I was in front of the hangar, you could hear the

Page 26363

1 shooting.

2 Q. And inside?

3 A. Inside the hangar, you couldn't hear a thing, just the noise of

4 the engines working.

5 Q. Was there an incident that someone actually shot within the

6 hangar?

7 A. As far as I know, nobody was killed in the hangar. Just at one

8 point there was shooting in order to instil fear, and Miroljub Vujovic

9 reacted and issued a warning. It was Djankovic who did this and he was

10 told not to do that any more and to frighten -- not to frighten the

11 prisoners.

12 Q. What were the detainees told when the selection started?

13 A. They were told that they would be questioned. And that they

14 would see what would happen to them next, that -- they were just told that

15 they would be questioned.

16 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: I'll continue with the summary.

17 Inside the hangar, the detainees were selected into small groups

18 of about ten who were taken away to the execution place and shot.

19 At one point during the executions, the soldiers ran out of

20 ammunition. Miroljub Vujovic told everyone that he went to the JNA to ask

21 for more ammunition. The execution lasted until after midnight. The

22 witness did not know how many detainees were killed, but had heard the

23 figure of 372 detainees being at Ovcara.

24 Your Honours, we would now, for the last question -- for the last

25 section, go back into private session, because it's again something

Page 26364

1 related to the witness.

2 JUDGE MAY: Yes.

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Page 26376

1 [Open session]

2 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

3 Q. Mr. C-007, you gave your statement to the investigators between

4 the 9th and 15th of December, 1997.

5 A. Yes, around those dates. I don't remember the exact dates, but

6 probably that's right.

7 Q. Where was this?

8 A. In the barracks. I think UNPROFOR was securing the barracks in

9 Vukovar at the time.

10 Q. In the meantime, since you gave that statement and before coming

11 to The Hague, did you see the investigators or meet with the

12 investigators?

13 A. I'm sorry, I didn't hear the beginning of the question.

14 Q. You gave your statement in December 1997.

15 A. Yes. That's what it says on the statement, so that's not at

16 issue.

17 Q. But since that time, since December 1997, up until your arrival

18 here in The Hague, did you have any contacts or meetings with the

19 investigators to whom you gave that statement?

20 A. I think I did. I can't say for sure, because I made that

21 statement, and when I was making that statement, I didn't want to be a

22 witness. But later on I changed my opinion. So I had to contact the

23 investigator to tell him that I'd changed my mind.

24 Q. And how many contacts did you have with the investigator from the

25 time you gave your statement until you arrived in The Hague?

Page 26377

1 A. I really don't remember. One or two? I don't know. All this

2 was between December 1997 and up until, I think, June 1998.

3 Q. You say that with your son-in-law or brother-in-law - I won't

4 mention his name, as I have to protect your identity - in September 1991

5 as a volunteer you reported to the TO command in Sid. Is that right?

6 A. First we reported to Kraljevica and Marka in Novi Sad, and from

7 there we were sent to Sid.

8 Q. You did this in order to be able to choose where you would go; is

9 that right?

10 A. Yes. If I had reported to the barracks directly, they would have

11 probably sent me to Banja.

12 Q. I don't know where they would probably have sent you, but you

13 reported in order to go to Vukovar specifically.

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And that is the wish you expressed when you got there, I assume,

16 as a volunteer?

17 A. Yes, it is.

18 Q. And then as a volunteer you were assigned as a guard in the TO

19 staff; is that right?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Then in the third paragraph on page 4, you say that a couple of

22 days later you were sent for additional training with a part of the Guards

23 Brigade.

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. The commander of which was a certain major - I won't mention his

Page 26378

1 name so that we won't have to go into private session. Now, tell me,

2 where was this training provided?

3 A. It was a rather large house outside Sid. How far from the town

4 itself, I really don't know because I went in a vehicle. So I don't know.

5 Anyway, it was close to Sid.

6 Q. Now tell me, please, you claim on page 4 of your statement,

7 paragraph 4 - I assume you have the statement in front of you - that the

8 training was interrupted on the 27th of September, 1991. Allegedly

9 Colonel Mrksic at the time had carried out a coup in Belgrade, arrested

10 about 30 generals and as many politicians. That is what is stated in your

11 statement.

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. And according to information that you give, a military police

14 battalion took over the headquarters building in Belgrade, et cetera.

15 That is what it says in your statement.

16 A. Yes. I don't see what is in dispute there.

17 Q. Well, how could you talk of such nonsense? What kind of military

18 coup was carried out? Who were the generals and politicians arrested by

19 Mrksic? What happened in Belgrade? You are telling us this in your

20 statement.

21 JUDGE MAY: One at a time. Yes.

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Let me tell you. I'm saying what

23 the soldiers told me when they returned they had done. Of course, I

24 wasn't present, so I can't say that this happened 100 per cent. I think

25 it says somewhere that I was told this by soldiers. Training was

Page 26379

1 interrupted. They went to Belgrade. And they returned a day or two later

2 and told me what they had done. Maybe they arrested you too. I really

3 don't know.

4 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

5 Q. Mr. 007, surely the public would have known that Colonel Mrksic

6 had staged a coup and arrested 30 generals and as many politicians. If

7 the other information is equally reliable that you're providing, what am I

8 going to ask you? Are you speaking seriously about this coup?

9 JUDGE MAY: This is a comment by you and irrelevant. What the

10 witness says is this is what he was told about, whether it happened or

11 not.

12 Yes. Let's move on.

13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well, Mr. May. Let's move on.

14 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

15 Q. But you don't know who those generals and politicians were that

16 were arrested, according to what you said in the statement.

17 A. You mean their names?

18 Q. Yes.

19 A. No. Thirty of them and as many politicians.

20 Q. Very well. You say in paragraph 5 that a couple of days later

21 you received orders to move to Vukovar. Is that right?

22 A. Yes, it is.

23 Q. And who gave you those orders to move to Vukovar?

24 A. My superior.

25 Q. And you were part of one of the units of the Guards Brigade.

Page 26380

1 A. I was the 1st Company of the 1st Battalion of the military

2 police.

3 Q. Very well. And on the way there, you joined the rest of the

4 Guards Unit, so you were part of the Guards Unit; is that right?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And where did you join the rest of the Guards Unit?

7 A. Well, where I was having training, there was the military police

8 company. I really don't know. Somewhere near Sid. I can't tell you

9 exactly. I don't remember.

10 Q. And you claim that you were put up in Negoslavci in the house of

11 a friend of yours whose name I will not read out so that it may not be

12 linked to you as you are a protected witness. So you were accommodated in

13 the house of a friend of yours in Negoslavci.

14 A. When you asked me where I joined the Guards Brigade, did you mean

15 while I was in Sid attending training? This part of the unit that was

16 separate from the Guards Brigade, this battalion of military police,

17 joined the brigade as it was going towards Negoslavci, so I don't know

18 exactly whether it was in Sid, before Sid, or after Sid.

19 Q. But you say that you were accommodated in the house of your

20 friend in Negoslavci.

21 A. Yes, when we arrived in Negoslavci.

22 Q. How could you as a soldier of a Guards Brigade go to stay in a

23 friend's house?

24 A. That is not what it says in my statement. We were first put up

25 in some houses. And as the houses were in very bad shape, I asked the

Page 26381

1 officer - I think he was a lieutenant - whether I could find some better

2 accommodation, and the whole squad was put up in the house of this friend

3 of mine.

4 Q. So with permission of your superior officer, you were put up in

5 your friend's house.

6 A. Not just me but the whole squad.

7 Q. Some ten or so of you?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Let us leave out the details linked to this. Tell me, how much

10 time in all did you spend as a member of the Guards Unit?

11 A. You mean the battalion of the military police in the Guards?

12 Q. Yes, in the Guards. I'm not specifying whether it was a military

13 police battalion or some other unit. I'm just asking how much time you

14 spent in the Guards Unit.

15 A. The point is that, as far as I know, the TO was also under the

16 command of the Guards Brigade.

17 Q. But that's the TO. I'm asking you, because you say that you were

18 a member of the Guards Unit. At what point in time? When did you stop

19 being a member of the Guards Unit?

20 A. I don't know the exact date, but around the 20th of October.

21 Q. So already the 20th of October you were no longer a member of the

22 Guards Brigade.

23 A. I can't tell you the exact date, but around that date. Maybe a

24 day before or a day later.

25 Q. On page 5, paragraph 4, you say that you spent some time in front

Page 26382

1 of the barracks in Vukovar, where next to you there were two tanks; is

2 that right?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. That the crews were made up of young soldiers, conscripts, and

5 the inhabitants of Vukovar came up to you quite freely, asking where they

6 were from and talking to you. There were no incidents, were there??

7 A. I don't know whether the inhabitants were talking to these people

8 with the tanks, but I do know -- I don't remember saying that they talked

9 to those soldiers on the tanks. But if they had asked them anything, they

10 would have given answers. There would have been no problems.

11 Q. In front of the JNA barracks, there were two tanks. "The crews

12 were made up of conscripts without much combat experience. Some of them

13 were even sitting on their tanks reading comic books."

14 A. That's correct.

15 Q. "To complete the picture, people from the neighbouring houses were

16 coming out and asking us who we were, because, as they said, they had

17 never seen soldiers like us."

18 A. They were asking us, not the tank crews, as they belonged to

19 another unit. I think that was the Mitrovica Corps.

20 Q. So the tank crews were regular soldiers and you were already in

21 the TO.

22 A. No. I was still in the Guards Brigade.

23 Q. I see, you were in the Guards Brigade. So this was still in

24 October?

25 A. Yes, this was the beginning of October. 1st, 2nd, or 3rd, I

Page 26383

1 can't remember exactly.

2 Q. In the fifth paragraph on page 5, you say that you saw some JNA

3 tanks moving towards the centre of town and you thought then, as you say

4 here, that they must have fired at Croats.

5 A. I don't remember that passage from my statement, because it was

6 translated into English and then back from the English into Serbian, but I

7 can tell you what it was all about. The tanks were moving towards the

8 centre, and we went alongside as security for the tanks, and the tanks

9 speeded up, if I can put it that way, left us, went towards the centre,

10 fired a couple of shells, and came back. So I'm not sure about the

11 translation. I really can't say.

12 Q. Well, I thought that that was a bit strange and not very logical.

13 Anyway, did you hear the tanks open fire?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And what were they firing at?

16 JUDGE MAY: What has been handed to the witness?

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know.

18 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honours, it's the English version of

19 the statement.

20 JUDGE MAY: I don't know if that's going to be much use.

21 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: No.

22 JUDGE MAY: But let the witness have that, if it's of any use to

23 him.

24 Yes, let's go on.

25 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Page 26384

1 Q. You say in that same paragraph, "After the tanks withdrew towards

2 Negoslavci, the Croats started shelling us." That's what it says. That's

3 how it reads.

4 A. Yes, that's right.

5 Q. And then you go on to say, "Later on I learnt that the shelling

6 was only a part of the morning routine."

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. So they shelled you all the time.

9 A. Yes. I mean, that particular morning.

10 Q. And then you go on to say -- you say that, "It was part of the

11 usual morning routine and despite that, two sergeants, a lieutenant and a

12 captain - I do not remember their names - were wounded in the shelling, so

13 that we were practically left without officers."

14 A. Correct.

15 Q. "The wounded were taken care of, and we then moved inside the

16 barracks."

17 A. What did you say? I don't know about this bit of going into the

18 barracks.

19 Q. It says, "The wounded were taken care of, and we then moved

20 inside the barracks." I'm reading this from your statement, actually.

21 A. Yes. This is how it was. A number of unit members went inside

22 the barracks. I myself stayed outside.

23 Q. Tell me this, then, please: As you say at the end of that

24 paragraph on page 5 that you returned and that there was a skirmish with

25 the TO members, a short skirmish.

Page 26385

1 A. Yes, that's right.

2 Q. What was the reason for the skirmish with the members of the TO?

3 A. Well, we didn't know that they were members of the Territorial

4 Defence. And as we were wearing camouflage uniforms, they thought we were

5 the Zengas, I assume.

6 Q. So there was a misunderstanding; is that it?

7 A. Yes, that's right.

8 Q. And then in page 3 -- page 6, paragraph 3, you say you heard

9 rumours going round as to what was happening to the members of the JNA in

10 Vukovar allegedly, that you considered them to be impossible, and

11 construed in order to create an atmosphere and phobias, you say, among the

12 young recruits which were to be brought into a position to kill elderly

13 people, children, and anybody else they came across. Is that what you

14 said?

15 A. Well, I think I said something similar, because that was the

16 effect that was -- on the soldiers. That was how it affected the

17 soldiers.

18 Q. Who produced that effect?

19 A. Well, I can't remember exactly now which of the officers told us

20 that.

21 Q. When you read the statement by your father, do you think that it

22 would have had that effect on the soldiers?

23 A. I have not read my father's statement.

24 Q. All right. Tell me this, then: You say that they could shoot

25 old women and even children. During the time you allegedly spent within

Page 26386

1 the Guards Unit, did you see any soldier or JNA officer kill anybody, for

2 that matter?

3 A. I didn't see them killing women and children.

4 Q. Well, did you see a soldier or a JNA officer kill anybody at all?

5 Did you personally see a soldier or a JNA officer kill anybody?

6 A. No.

7 Q. That's fine. Very well. Now we can move on.

8 You claim that you heard that a major who was in command - and I

9 won't state his name, because you say he was your commander, commanding

10 officer - after the death of a younger soldier --

11 A. Officer.

12 Q. Yes. There's a mistake here. He was a young sergeant, was he?

13 A. Yes, that's right.

14 Q. And he was very close to him, fond of him. He went to a cellar

15 in Negoslavci and killed two prisoners there. That's what you say in

16 paragraph 5 of page 6.

17 A. I also say that that's what I heard.

18 Q. All right. So you're inclined to believe the story, are you?

19 A. I have believed in many things during my life.

20 Q. All right. But you are inclined to believe that story; whereas,

21 the killing of the soldier -- so you're inclined to believe in this story

22 but you're not inclined to believe in the story of the killings of

23 soldiers, and you consider that they were created to instil phobia among

24 the population.

25 A. I'm not quite sure what you mean.

Page 26387

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Page 26388

1 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

2 JUDGE MAY: Apparently there's a set of headphones which are

3 creating a problem. Have we got them? Yes.

4 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

5 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

6 Q. Very well. At all events, this was an event that you heard

7 about; is that it?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. You personally know nothing about it, that this major killed

10 anybody, in fact.

11 A. No.

12 Q. All right. Very well. A moment ago, during the

13 examination-in-chief, you said that the members of the Croatian National

14 Guard Corps and the police, that is to say, the Croatian forces, for the

15 most part had had hunting weapons. Is that what you said?

16 A. Yes, that's right.

17 Q. And a moment ago you say that they shelled you and carried out

18 routine morning shellings. So how were they able to shell you? What

19 weapons did they use? Surely not hunting rifles.

20 A. No. They used an 82-millimetre mortar to shell us.

21 Q. Well, tell us, then: Do you think that all the fighting there

22 would have gone on for as long as three months had these people really

23 only just had these hunting rifles?

24 A. Well, I'm personally convinced that you -- had you appointed a

25 more intelligent general, it would have all gone on for just six or seven

Page 26389

1 hours or two or three days, not longer than that.

2 Q. Well, I wasn't in a position to appoint generals of that kind.

3 A. But you did appoint a general to lead everybody later on.

4 Q. That's what you think.

5 In paragraph 2, page 7, you say that members of the Territorial

6 Defence liberated parts of the town and they were called Ivo Andric and

7 Blaz Jovanovic, and you say that later on you, as members of the JNA, went

8 over there yourselves. Is that right?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. You left the JNA after, as was emphasised by Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff,

11 some looting carried out by a soldier.

12 A. Yes, that's right.

13 Q. So what was it in actual fact? I understood it that some

14 jewellery was stolen from a house, that he stole some jewellery from

15 somebody's house; is that right?

16 A. Well, the settlement was empty, and the soldiers when searching

17 the houses found some jewellery. And of course, it would have been

18 military procedure for them to have handed over the jewellery to an

19 officer.

20 Q. Yes, of course. Anyway, there was this jewellery theft, which

21 you reported.

22 A. Right.

23 Q. The result of you having reported the theft was that they found

24 the soldier, the jewellery confiscated and returned to its rightful owner;

25 is that right?

Page 26390

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. So was logical military and civilian procedure conducted, that is

3 to say, that the stolen jewellery was found straight away and returned to

4 its rightful owner?

5 A. In that particular case, yes.

6 Q. So what, then, was the reason for your departure from the JNA?

7 A. After that, the soldiers were hostile towards me, and they

8 claimed that they would set fire to the houses and that it wasn't worth

9 losing one's life for other people's houses. The frontline was situated

10 opposite my own house at the time, and it was logical that they would set

11 fire to my house, so that is why I -- there was this argument between me

12 and the army, and the sergeant said that I should go and speak to the

13 major. And after that interview -- and it says here in the statement that

14 he advised me to move to the Territorial Defence, which was a valid piece

15 of advice.

16 Q. Did anybody set fire to your house?

17 A. Five times.

18 Q. Who?

19 A. Well, unofficially it was burnt by the Ustashas and three times

20 by --

21 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please repeat.

22 JUDGE MAY: Would you --

23 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

24 Q. But it didn't burn down.

25 JUDGE MAY: Just a moment. Could you repeat who it was who burnt

Page 26391

1 the house again. You said three times -- "it was burnt by the Ustashas

2 and three times by --" and we haven't got recorded who the three times it

3 was by.

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Twice -- I said twice it was burnt

5 by the Ustashas and three times by the JNA army.

6 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

7 Q. All right. You say that when you came to that settlement, the

8 Blaz Jovanovic complex, in fact, that you were still in the JNA, weren't

9 you, at that time?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And then you say that you met Major Sljivancanin for the first

12 time then and there. Is that right?

13 A. The first time during the war I meant.

14 Q. All right. And those parts of town were not taken control of by

15 the JNA, were they, nor were any pretensions made towards it; is that

16 right?

17 A. I already said that. First of all, those parts of town were won

18 over by the Territorial Defence, then they were occupied by the JNA,

19 because the Territorial Defence didn't have enough soldiers.

20 Q. So it did place those areas under its control, but the JNA did

21 not actually take control of it; is that right?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And you say that in the Blaz Jovanovic complex you stayed there

24 for some -- about ten days and that it was very unpleasant because you

25 were constantly subjected to Croatian gunfire; is that right?

Page 26392

1 A. I don't see where it says that in my statement. Possibly.

2 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Maybe I can help. It's the paragraph after

3 you mentioned Sljivancanin.

4 JUDGE MAY: Which page are we on?

5 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: It's on page 7, second paragraph, and it's

6 after the paragraph where Major Sljivancanin is mentioned.

7 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

8 Q. Very well. You say, "We stayed in the Blaz Jovanovic complex for

9 about ten days, holding our positions against, as we were told, 300 to 400

10 Ustashas, who were across the street. To be honest --"

11 A. Yes, that's right.

12 Q. "To be honest, I did not believe that number. We were not

13 comfortable there, as we were exposed to constant fire. Sometimes even

14 from the JNA positions." Is that right?

15 A. Yes, it is.

16 Q. That means that you were subjected to fire from the Croatian side

17 and from the JNA as well; is that right?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. You were a JNA unit yourselves.

20 A. Exactly so.

21 Q. Was anybody killed at the time?

22 A. A member of the Territorial Defence was hit by a sniper, but he

23 was hit by Croatian sniper fire. That is quite certain. And I think that

24 some shrapnels wounded two or three soldiers, but I can't be sure.

25 Q. So the one that was killed by -- from the Croatian side was

Page 26393

1 killed by a hunting rifle; is that right?

2 A. No, a sniper, 762 millimetre or 7.9 millimetre, one or the other.

3 Q. So nobody was killed except that one man killed by the Croats.

4 What do you mean when you say that fell casualty? I mean, was anybody

5 killed? Did the JNA kill anybody there?

6 A. We were told every morning that there would be artillery

7 preparation for an attack, so every morning, from the Blaz Jovanovic

8 complex, we were transferred to the Ivo Andric complex. And once the

9 artillery preparations were through, we would go back to the Blaz

10 Jovanovic complex position. After an hour or two, we would be told again

11 that there was artillery preparation going on or an air attack, so we once

12 again have to withdraw to the Ivo Andric complex and then half an hour, an

13 hour later, we went back to Blaz Jovanovic. And this would happen five or

14 six times a day.

15 Q. So that was your drill. All right. I don't want to go into

16 that, but let's go back to the jewellery. Can you tell us the name of the

17 man who stole the jewellery? Because you reported him, and you must have

18 known his name.

19 JUDGE MAY: Is there really any significance in that? What

20 possible significance is there in it? And if there is any significance,

21 we'll go into private session.

22 Can you remember the name, Witness C-007? If so, we'll go to

23 private session.

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't remember the name. But

25 Mr. Milosevic can check it out. It must have been recorded in the army

Page 26394

1 records, the Guards Brigade, that looting had taken place, because the

2 jewellery was returned.

3 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

4 Q. I can see that you have explained to us that there was an

5 investigation, that the jewellery was confiscated and returned, and the

6 man probably arrested.

7 A. I don't know what happened to him.

8 Q. But as you left the JNA - and we've cleared that point up, that

9 that was in October -

10 A. About the 20th of October.

11 Q. Right. That means one month, a whole month before the fall of

12 Vukovar; is that right?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. So why did you stay on in Vukovar at all in the first place, in

15 view of the fact that you had left the JNA? Why did you stay in Vukovar?

16 A. I didn't leave the JNA. I left the Guards Brigade. I was just

17 transferred from one unit to another, to the Territorial Defence in fact.

18 Q. So you moved from the JNA to the Territorial Defence; is that it?

19 A. Well, as far as I know, the TO and the Guards Brigade were also

20 under the guard of Mrksic, or rather, the Territorial Defence was under

21 the command of the Territorial Brigade. That whole sector was under the

22 command of the Guards Brigade.

23 Q. All right. When you moved into the Territorial Defence, you were

24 under the immediate command of the commander of the Territorial Defence.

25 I don't know whether we mentioned his name in open session or not, so we

Page 26395

1 don't have to mention it, I don't suppose. I think it was mentioned in

2 open session, however; is that right?

3 JUDGE MAY: We'll check that.

4 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes, there shouldn't be a problem with that.

5 Yes, it's no problem.

6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well.

7 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

8 Q. So the command of the Territorial Defence, you say, was Miroljub

9 Vujovic; is that right?

10 A. I think so, yes.

11 Q. And in paragraph 3, page 9 you say that you happened to wound

12 yourself by accident when you were a TO member. How did that come about?

13 A. You mean the exact date?

14 Q. No, I'm asking you when that happened.

15 A. I don't remember the exact date, but it must have been recorded

16 because I was hospitalised in Negoslavci.

17 Q. All right. Tell me, how long were you out -- away from the unit

18 of the Territorial Defence due to your injuries?

19 A. Five or six hours.

20 Q. Only five or six hours?

21 A. Yes. I shot myself in my big toe from an automatic rifle. It

22 wasn't a serious injury.

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 26396

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 JUDGE MAY: Yes. We'll go into private session.

8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well. There's no need then.

9 JUDGE MAY: Very well. And it's pointed out that it's -- it's

10 half past, although, that clock is a bit fast.

11 We'll adjourn now.

12 Mr. Milosevic, we've considered how long you should have for the

13 witness. We've considered time which has -- some of which has been wasted

14 already. You've had very nearly one hour. But we'll give you another

15 half an hour to finish this cross-examination.

16 Witness C-007, could you bear in mind not to speak to anybody

17 about your evidence until it's over, and that does include the Prosecution

18 team.

19 We'll adjourn now. Twenty minutes.

20 --- Recess taken at 10.32 a.m.

21 --- On resuming at 10.57 a.m.

22 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Milosevic.

23 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

24 Q. Mr. C-007, is it correct that individuals came to Vukovar in

25 order to have an adventure simply and that's why they enlisted?

Page 26397

1 A. Partly that is correct, but I think that they enlisted in Sid,

2 not in Vukovar. I don't think that there was a chance for anyone to come

3 to Vukovar of his own free will, as far as the Serb side is concerned, of

4 course.

5 Q. But volunteers usually do come of their own free will.

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Of their own free will.

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. You believe that nobody came to Vukovar to enlist with the TO

10 there?

11 A. Well, I don't know how anybody could have reached Vukovar.

12 Q. All right. I see. If you don't know about it, I won't ask you

13 more about this.

14 Tell me something else. You say that you saved at least 100 to

15 300 persons, at least, while you were in Vukovar. Civilians, that is.

16 A. Yes. I got them out of a cellar. Exactly.

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 Q. How come you cannot mention a single name?

20 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour --

21 JUDGE MAY: Yes.

22 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, this was --

23 JUDGE MAY: Private session.

24 [Private session]

25 (redacted)

Page 26398

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Page 26399

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2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

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5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 [Open session]

22 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

23 Q. Mr. C-007 --

24 THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session.

25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Are we in -- all right.

Page 26400

1 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

2 Q. On page 11 in paragraph 2 of your statement, you say that while

3 you were in Vukovar, every day you spent about 2.500 to 5.000 rounds of

4 ammunition, a day.

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Who did you shoot at?

7 A. The enemy.

8 Q. 2.500 to 5.000 rounds a day?

9 A. It's not in my statement, but I did this because I tried to

10 secure crossings across the road. And when my unit was supposed to cross

11 the street, then I would shoot at roofs, buildings, anything, so that they

12 would be safe while crossing the street. That's why I used up so much

13 ammunition.

14 Q. Didn't you exaggerate this a bit, I mean, having spent that much

15 ammunition?

16 A. I know because I filled the clips, the ammunition clips every

17 day, so I know exactly how much I used up.

18 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, PKT.

20 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

21 Q. Tell me, please, how many people did you kill on that occasion,

22 if you shot 3.000 bullets a day? How many people did you kill?

23 A. For the most part, my shooting was by way of prevention.

24 Q. You did not shoot at anyone. You were simply shooting at

25 buildings.

Page 26401

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. On page 12, in paragraph 2, you stated that a person who has a

3 certain nickname - I don't need to mention that nickname, so that we would

4 not go into closed session - that he bragged to you and he said that at

5 Velepromet he killed 165 people there but that you could not believe him.

6 Is that right?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. And when you say that you couldn't believe it, he told you to

9 come along with him.

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. But you refused because you were afraid that he would kill

12 someone.

13 A. Exactly.

14 Q. That is probably because you'd feel guilty then.

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. And do you feel guilty for having participated with a person like

17 that in any kind of activities, if there is such a person who brags about

18 having done things like that?

19 A. I did not have much choice.

20 Q. But you did have a choice. You came as a volunteer.

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Nobody forced you to come and nobody recruited you.

23 A. Correct.

24 Q. All right. On page 12, in paragraph 3, you say that you were

25 against looting. However, you did a bit of looting yourself, but without

Page 26402

1 the intention of stockpiling things but only for your momentary needs. Is

2 that right?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. So you were looting actually but just a little bit, just a little

5 bit.

6 A. I only took things I needed then.

7 Q. All right. So that we would not have to go into private session,

8 you said that somebody had given you a cockade.

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Do you have anybody who could confirm that? The person you

11 mention here that gave you a cockade?

12 A. Well, I cannot remember right now, but I can notify the court

13 within a few days of the exact name and surname of this person.

14 Q. All right. If you can, it would be useful.

15 Now, tell me, since you mentioned Major Sljivancanin. You said

16 in your statement that you met Major Sljivancanin at the entrance into the

17 hospital; is that right?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. And he did not allow you to enter with a weapon; is that right?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And he asked that you take off the cockade.

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Is it also correct that he told you that inside there were about

24 300 Croatian soldiers and that you did not want -- and that he did not

25 want you to cause a problem there?

Page 26403

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. And in addition to that, he informed you that members of the

3 international community were expected to come there; is that right?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. So he was persistent. He would not allow you to enter without a

6 weapon, and you were supposed to take off your cockade, and you obeyed his

7 orders; is that right?

8 A. Yes, that's right.

9 Q. Now, in the hospital, you say that you saw Dr. Njavro and

10 Dr. Bosanac.

11 A. Yes, Dr. Matos too. Perhaps I can expand on that.

12 Q. And on this occasion - since this was not in closed session, I'm

13 not going to mention any of the other names that were mentioned in closed

14 session - with a group, there was a certain Stanko Vujanovic; is that

15 right?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. And they managed to smuggle themselves into the hospital.

18 A. Through the back door.

19 Q. Where there was not a guard.

20 A. Yes. Well, that's what I think. I did not see it, but that's

21 what I assume.

22 Q. Yes. And you claim that he then pointed his rifle at

23 Dr. Bosanac, prepared to kill her.

24 A. This is a volunteer who was with him then.

25 Q. But you reacted quickly, and you saved her life; is that right?

Page 26404

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Page 26405

1 A. No. I was walking out with that volunteer. I was getting out of

2 the hospital, and that's where we came across Dr. Bosanac. And she --

3 Q. Oh, this was outside the hospital?

4 A. Yes, at the exit. It's one of those small back doors. I don't

5 know exactly. And then she addressed this third person who was with us

6 and then this volunteer understood that this is Vesna Bosanac, because she

7 had -- what's this thing called? She had her name and surname written on

8 this little plate, and he wanted to kill her.

9 Q. And you prevented that.

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Do you know that even Vesna Bosanac did not mention in her

12 statement that somebody wanted to kill her?

13 A. I don't know what she mentioned, but ...

14 JUDGE MAY: Of course. He can't comment on what she may have

15 said.

16 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

17 Q. All right. Tell me --

18 A. Can I explain this to you, why she made no comment about this?

19 But it has to be in closed session.

20 JUDGE MAY: Yes. We'll go into closed session briefly, since the

21 matter has been raised. Yeah, private session.

22 [Private session]

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 26406

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2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 [Open session]

8 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

9 Q. You also say, generally speaking, that the TO had taken certain

10 locations, certain sites, certain neighbourhoods, and then afterwards the

11 JNA would come in and take control over these places. Is that right?

12 A. Yes, especially because at first the Territorial Defence did not

13 have sufficient manpower to keep everything under their own control.

14 Q. That practically means that the JNA was only securing the area.

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. All right. Is it correct that members of the TO in barracks

17 kidnapped a number of prisoners from the JNA, members of the National

18 Guards Corps?

19 A. As far as I know, rumour had it that they kidnapped about 300 to

20 400 people who were taken from the hospital to the barracks. Now, where

21 they actually abducted them is something I don't know.

22 Q. Is it correct that this was done by threatening the officers and

23 soldiers who were present there with weapons, threatening to kill them?

24 A. I was not in that group, but that was the story.

25 Q. All right. After that, you went to Ovcara?

Page 26407

1 A. Is that right?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. How much time did you spend in Ovcara?

4 A. Approximately about eight hours, approximately. I really cannot

5 remember now exactly how much time. And I don't know exactly when

6 everything was over at Ovcara, so it was, say, between six to eight hours.

7 Q. All right. Tell me, since a short while ago in the

8 examination-in-chief you gave a description and you say that some members

9 of the TO beat these prisoners who were members of the National Guards

10 Corps and of the Croatian police; is that right?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And then some JNA officer intervened with a commander and

13 protested why they were beating prisoners.

14 A. Oh, no. People were lined up. So then when these members of the

15 ZNG and the MUP, when they got off the buses, they went through lines of

16 people. And they addressed this man as colonel. I'm not sure. I didn't

17 see his insignia. And he tried to stop this so they would not have to run

18 a gauntlet. And the man realised that he couldn't do anything and that

19 was it.

20 Q. I wrote this down. You said that this JNA officer tried to

21 persuade the Territorial Defence members not to beat the prisoners.

22 A. Yes, but I don't know the name.

23 Q. So he tried to prevent the beating. But while he was there, they

24 tried -- they beat them and he tried to stop hit. But while he was there,

25 there was no killing. Is that right?

Page 26408

1 A. At that moment, when that colonel was there, there was no

2 killing.

3 Q. But he was trying to prevent the beating of prisoners; is that

4 right?

5 A. Yes, that's right.

6 Q. And later on, when you say that people were killed, it was my

7 understanding on the basis of what you were saying that at that time there

8 was no one there from the JNA.

9 A. What do you mean "there"?

10 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter did not hear the question.

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] By the hangar and around the

12 hangar, within a two to three hundred metre diameter there wasn't anyone,

13 but say 500 metres away, there was a small yellow house where there were a

14 few soldiers. Quartermasters -- I'm not sure. But there was a small

15 unit.

16 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

17 Q. All right. A couple of hundred metres away there was a small

18 yellow house and there was a group of people belonging to quartermasters,

19 logistics.

20 A. I don't know exactly which group they belonged to and which arms

21 and services they belonged to.

22 Q. At any rate, at Ovcara or near Ovcara there wasn't anyone when

23 these people were killed. I mean, there was no one from the JNA there.

24 A. I didn't see anyone.

25 Q. Very well. Tell me, do you know who was in command when all

Page 26409

1 those events were taking place at Ovcara?

2 A. The only commander present there, as far as I know, was Miroljub.

3 And he behaved as if he was the commander or the organiser of all this. I

4 don't know how to put it. He was obeyed over there.

5 Q. This Miroljub from Vukovar?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Was he an official in the TO of Vukovar?

8 A. He was the commander of the TO. At least, that is how he

9 introduced himself.

10 Q. You say that some combine harvesters were making a noise.

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Outside the hangar?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. This couldn't have attracted anyone's attention.

15 A. I don't understand what you mean.

16 Q. The noise was made so that the shots could not be heard.

17 A. Yes. But the shots could not be heard in the hangar.

18 Q. Were the harvesters in the hangar or outside?

19 A. They were outside the hangar, leaning on the hangar walls.

20 Q. Just a moment for me to see whether I have time for a few more

21 questions.

22 You said something about things being taken away. You mentioned

23 an incident when you loaded onto trucks cardboard boxes with the addresses

24 of officers on them.

25 A. The addresses -- yes, the addresses were in Belgrade, private

Page 26410

1 addresses.

2 Q. Private addresses. I see. Well, do you know that in those days

3 various officers were evacuating their families or moving out after the

4 fall of Vukovar and were sending their belongings? Why are you

5 attributing this to looting? Do you know for certain that things were

6 looted, that that was loot, or was it the property of those officers who

7 were sending their belongings in cardboard boxes to Belgrade?

8 A. I don't know what to say in answer to that, but I don't know that

9 officers had lived in that area before. This was in the Ivo Andric area

10 of town.

11 Q. But you do not have any information as to the contents of those

12 boxes and especially not that they contained loot.

13 A. Maybe one could check whether officers were living in part of

14 town. I don't know. I can't guarantee that, but...

15 Q. On what grounds did you come to that allegation that officers

16 were sending stolen goods to their home addresses? Why couldn't it be

17 officers sending their own things?

18 A. It was logical because all the officers present there were from

19 Belgrade, and things were being sent to Belgrade addresses.

20 Q. So they were sending them to their own address.

21 A. Yes, those officers over there were inhabitants --

22 Q. Inhabitants of what town? They're JNA officers. They're sending

23 goods to their addresses. I'm asking you how did you come to make that

24 allegation that they were stolen goods and that an officer was stealing

25 things? Apart from this one soldier that you said you saw and that you

Page 26411

1 reported and who was caught and the jewellery returned, the stolen

2 jewellery returned, did you see any other JNA member looting anything?

3 A. I didn't even see this person actually going from house to house

4 and collecting things. All I saw I said in my statement; that I saw these

5 cardboard boxes loaded into a truck in an area which had been liberated a

6 day or two prior to that. Just as what I am saying what I am saying, you

7 are saying that this was the property of officers who may have been living

8 there.

9 Q. I can't claim anything in that connection, because I wasn't

10 there. I'm just asking you on what ground did you assume that this was

11 something that had been stolen or looted when you don't have any

12 knowledge, you didn't see any officer stealing or looting or doing

13 anything like that.

14 A. I don't know what I could say in answer to that.

15 Q. I see that you don't know what to say. But tell me, as I asked

16 you that already, you didn't see a single officer or JNA member looting

17 anything except for this one who stole jewellery and you reported?

18 JUDGE MAY: We've been over this a great many times.

19 Yes. Mr. Tapuskovic.

20 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, it will really be

21 very difficult for me, because the statement is a lengthy one given by

22 this witness to the investigators, and there are several things in

23 connection with which I would like to ask him to clarify for you. I see

24 that he doesn't have his statement in front of him.

25 Questioned by Mr. Tapuskovic:

Page 26412

1 Q. [Interpretation] Do you have your statement, the statement you

2 gave to the investigators?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Please look at page 13. In the English version, it is page 12,

5 last paragraph. You already said during your examination-in-chief here,

6 answering questions by Mrs. Uertz-Retzlaff, but I would like to ask you in

7 connection with this paragraph: You said that you were armed under full

8 combat gear, including a cockade which you received from a certain person,

9 et cetera. "I was armed and in full combat gear, including the

10 cockade..." Is that right? Page 13.

11 A. The pages are not numbered here.

12 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] This will be very difficult.

13 Surely the Prosecution has a copy with pages that are numbered. All my

14 pages are numbered.

15 JUDGE MAY: We must try and get on in this way.

16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I have a copy with the pages

17 numbered in the Serbo-Croatian version.

18 JUDGE MAY: I think the Prosecution have got one.

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I've found it.

20 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]

21 Q. Witness, you said that you were in full combat gear, including

22 the cockade that you had received from a certain person; is that right?

23 But in brackets you said, "I refused to wear the red star of the JNA

24 because for me that was a symbol of communism." Did that person ask you

25 to wear it and you refused it?

Page 26413

1 A. No.

2 Q. Then who did you say you didn't want to wear the red star and who

3 made such a request of you to wear it? You said, "To distinguish myself

4 from the communists, whom I could not stand, I wore a cockade."

5 A. When I moved to the TO, I didn't have to wear a star and I had no

6 insignia.

7 Q. Did you wear the star while you were in the army? Why did you

8 accept it then?

9 A. I had no choice.

10 Q. Thank you. You already said that around the hangar there were no

11 soldiers. At least, you didn't see any.

12 Could you look at page 16, please, where you refer to this

13 officer who was in the hangar. Please find page 16. You stated here that

14 he asked the prisoners not to be beaten. He tried to dissuade them, and

15 they started playing around with him. The people he was standing in front

16 of would stop beating for a moment, but those behind would continue. When

17 he realised what was going on and that some of them even threatened that

18 they would beat him up too, he realised that there was nothing he could do

19 and he left. Is that how it was?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Now, please look at page 14.

22 JUDGE KWON: Just if you stay there. You are speaking about a

23 superior to him? Given that he's a colonel, who could be his superior, in

24 your opinion?

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It depended on the unit he belonged

Page 26414

1 to. I really don't know which unit he belonged to. There were several

2 corps there. There was the Mitrovica Corps. I don't know whether there

3 was the Novi Sad Corps, and there was the Guards Brigade. If he was

4 attached to the Guards Brigade, his superior would be a general. And if

5 he was in the Mitrovica Corps, I don't know who the commander of that

6 corps was.

7 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.

8 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]

9 Q. Witness, will you please look at page 14, last paragraph of the

10 B/C/S version. And in the English version, page 14, paragraph 3. In the

11 second sentence, you say that, "Somebody from my group - I don't remember

12 exactly who - told me that he and Vujanovic's people had abducted a group

13 of Ustashas from JNA soldiers." Is that what you said? And what did you

14 mean when you used the term "abducted from the JNA"? You seized them from

15 the JNA? How did they do that?

16 A. Those prisoners or Ustashas had been captured by the JNA, and

17 Vujanovic's men snatched them away from them, took them over.

18 Q. Yes. But "seized them," that sounds as if some sort of force

19 must have been used, for prisoners to be taken from someone in the way

20 that you described.

21 On page 17, you again used this word "seized" or "abducted."

22 Could you explain.

23 A. They were not given them. They were not handed over to them. I

24 was told this, as I stated it here. I didn't ask them to explain how it

25 was possible for them to seize those people from the army, whether they

Page 26415

1 had to fight to do that or not. I just was told this, and I went to see

2 what was going on.

3 Q. As for the surname Radic, on page 7 of your testimony, page 8,

4 second paragraph of the English version, you spoke of a group that you

5 belonged to. Could you please tell us first, do you realise that it was a

6 paramilitary group or not?

7 A. What do you mean "paramilitary"?

8 Q. I mean, in view of the uniforms you wore, the insignia you wore,

9 in view of your position, in view of the fact that those soldiers that you

10 were with had seized the JNA prisoners from the JNA. How did you see

11 yourself? Did you consider yourself to be a member of the TO, or did you

12 consider yourself to be a paramilitary unit?

13 A. I personally considered myself to be a member of the TO. And at

14 one point we even received some emblems with the coat of arms of the TO of

15 Vukovar, which was -- had been created at the time.

16 Q. Excuse me. On that same page 8, you gave the exact names and

17 surnames of these people. And under number 7, I think it is, the name

18 Radic appears, the surname Radic, with the nickname Sarac. This Radic had

19 nothing to do with Captain Radic. And did this Radic have a group of his

20 own?

21 A. No. He was a member of our group.

22 Q. I beg your pardon?

23 A. He was a member of our group, of the TO.

24 Q. And within which group did the man whom you called Stuka act? In

25 paragraph 1, on page 11 --

Page 26416

1 A. Do you want the answer as to whom he officially belonged or whom

2 he was with?

3 Q. Within which group did he operate?

4 A. He was a regular JNA soldier.

5 Q. Yes, I know. But when you described on page 10 - and then you

6 went on to -- you continued on page 11 - you said with regard to him that

7 he was a pathological killer and that you only just managed to persuade

8 him not to kill someone. So you were trying to persuade him, dissuade him

9 from killing. So was he a member of your unit; yes or no?

10 A. He was attached to our unit. Our unit consisted of ten men, two

11 groups of five. Sometimes we would be a group of 15. And he joined us

12 voluntarily because --

13 Q. So he then was not a member of a unit belonging to the JNA?

14 That's what I'm asking.

15 A. Well, let me see. I can say that then the JNA had no control

16 over him. I think that's putting it correctly. He was officially doing

17 his military service. He was a soldier. As to what he was doing, I think

18 that had nothing to do with the JNA.

19 Q. Now, page 10, when you talk about Radic, in paragraph 3, from the

20 bottom of that page, you said roughly -- no, explicitly, "The command of

21 the TO unit had regular meetings in his house, in Vujanovic's house. I

22 heard, I heard, that one of the persons attending those meetings was a JNA

23 captain by the name of Radic who I believe was also staying in that

24 house." That's what you said. "The meetings were usually held in the

25 evening before an action. I was present at one such meeting, but

Page 26417

1 Captain Radic was not there then." You did not say here at all that

2 Captain Radic -- that you ever saw Captain Radic in that house.

3 A. That's what it says in this statement. But I can add. I did see

4 him.

5 Q. Very well. But that's what you said earlier on.

6 And in another place, you said that you saw him several times but

7 you didn't say that you saw him there just then.

8 A. Let me explain. I would see him in that house, but many people

9 would come to that house, because it was the only one that had

10 electricity. One could watch television there. So it wasn't at all

11 strange for him to be there. It was the only house in which one could

12 lead a normal life.

13 Q. I'd also like to show you what you said with respect to

14 Dokmanovic in your statement, compared to the statement you gave

15 previously to the court. You said as follows: "You asked me whether I

16 have seen Slavko Dokmanovic. Before I continue, let me explain and say

17 that I didn't know Dokmanovic at all, (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 JUDGE MAY: Take care. We'll go into private session.

20 [Private session]

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 26418

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12 Page 26418 redacted private session.

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Page 26419

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2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

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5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 [Open session]

10 JUDGE KWON: Yes.

11 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honours, it was in private session, the

22 actual --

23 JUDGE MAY: Private session.

24 [Private session]

25 (redacted)

Page 26420

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12 Pages 26420 to 26425 redacted private session.

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Page 26426

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9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

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14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 [Open session]

20 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] No, I'm afraid these -- we will

21 have to remain in private session because of the events to be discussed.

22 I do apologise.

23 [Private session]

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 26427

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Page 26428

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Page 26429

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

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5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 [Open session]

13 JUDGE MAY: Witness C-007, that concludes your evidence. Thank

14 you for coming to the International Tribunal to give it. You are now free

15 to go, but would you just wait until the blinds are pulled down.

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

17 [The witness withdrew]

18 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Ms. Pack, is it for you to call the next

19 witness?

20 MS. PACK: Yes, Your Honour, I'll be calling the next witness.

21 Your Honour, perhaps I could deal with something again before the

22 witness comes in. There are documents relating to this witness which the

23 Prosecution considers should be disclosed under Rule 66. These documents

24 were identified, unfortunately, this week. They are documents provided

25 under Rule 70, and the Prosecution has yet to provide clearance for those

Page 26430

1 -- has yet to obtain clearance for those documents, for their release from

2 the relevant providers. It's intended, therefore, that these documents be

3 disclosed as soon as that authority has been obtained. Should the accused

4 consider that further cross-examination of this witness is required once

5 he's received these documents, then of course we would undertake to recall

6 him.

7 JUDGE KWON: Did you say Rule 66?

8 MS. PACK: Yes. They're disclosable under Rule 66. They are --

9 and provided pursuant to Rule 70.

10 JUDGE KWON: You mean prior statements?

11 MS. PACK: That's right. Unfortunately, they didn't show up on

12 any of our regular searches that we undertake to carry out for witnesses

13 by their name.

14 JUDGE MAY: Very well. If it's necessary for the witness to come

15 back, he'll have to come back. But we'll hear his evidence now.

16 MS. PACK: I'll call Mr. B-1414.

17 JUDGE KWON: Was he given a pseudonym?

18 MS. PACK: He's -- will be giving evidence in open session, Mr.

19 Isak Gasi.

20 [The witness entered court]

21 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Let the witness take the declaration.

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

23 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

24 JUDGE MAY: If you'd like to take a seat.

25 WITNESS: ISAK GASI

Page 26431

1 [Witness answered through interpreter]

2 Examined by Ms. Pack:

3 Q. Witness, will you give the Court, please, your name.

4 A. Gasi, Isak.

5 Q. Mr. Gasi, did you testify in an earlier case before this Tribunal

6 in 1996?

7 A. Yes, I did.

8 MS. PACK: Your Honour, can the transcript of prior testimony and

9 one related exhibit be given a new exhibit number.

10 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit Number 536.

11 JUDGE MAY: Yes.

12 MS. PACK: Your Honour, I'll read a summary of that prior

13 testimony.

14 The witness gave evidence that he was from Brcko. Before the

15 war, he was a canoeist for the former Yugoslavia, participating at the

16 international level. In 1990, he was a member of the SDA executive

17 committee of the town of Brcko.

18 Towards the end of 1990, the witness recalls the military

19 mobilisation of Serb men in the area of Brcko. He recalls rallies prior

20 to the referendum in 1992, at which Serb leaders spoke. He recalls

21 Karadzic, Krajisnik, Plavsic, and Koljevic being there, and on one

22 occasion a minister from Belgrade for Serbs across the Drina. He himself

23 made public pronouncements on television; he said that they should try to

24 live together in Bosnia again, irrespective of ethnic origin or religion.

25 The witness's back garden overlooked the JNA garrison in Brcko

Page 26432

1 town. The JNA training area was across the road from his workplace, and

2 the garage facilities, about 200 metres away.

3 From the end of 1990, the witness saw many JNA convoys passing

4 through town. In 1991, he recalls seeing JNA weapons and equipment in

5 Serb villages surrounding Brcko. In mid-1991, he saw the establishment of

6 checkpoints manned by military policemen of the JNA and civilian policemen

7 from Brcko municipality. He saw Serbs in Brcko being given weapons by the

8 JNA.

9 The witness recalls one occasion about a month before the

10 conflict started in Brcko, when a JNA helicopter landed at the barracks in

11 town and individuals wearing red berets got out. The witness continued to

12 see helicopters landing at the barracks during the night. He saw men in

13 camouflage uniform and red berets in the barracks premises almost every

14 day, training soldiers, including the witness's Serb neighbours. He was

15 later told by Rade Bozic that he was captain of a military police unit of

16 the JNA for special purposes and that the Red Berets were members of those

17 special units. Above him were Captain Dragan's soldiers from Serbia.

18 The witness remembers two bridges being blown up in Brcko on the

19 30th of April, 1992. He later learned from Rade Bozic that he was

20 responsible for blowing up both bridges.

21 The witness says that the war broke out in Brcko on the 3rd of

22 May, 1992. Between the 4th and 6th of May, he saw fighter aircraft in the

23 Brcko area belonging to the JNA. They were flying low and soon after he

24 would hear explosions in the Muslim/Croat majority part of town.

25 The witness gives evidence about an ultimatum issued by members

Page 26433

1 of the SDS party in Brcko, that the municipality should be split into

2 three by the 4th of May, 1992. The witness saw this on television.

3 On the 1st of May, Captain Petrovic, who introduced himself as

4 the captain of the army unit in Brcko, of the military police force

5 security, transmitted a message to the inhabitants of Brcko that his unit

6 had been given the mandate to take over control of the town within 48

7 hours.

8 On the 7th of May, Mr. Gasi witnessed the killing of civilians by

9 men wearing camouflage uniforms and by civilian police in uniforms. On

10 the 12th of May, he saw dead bodies in front of the Galeb Hotel in town.

11 On one occasion, he saw bodies being unloaded into a hole dug out near to

12 where his company was.

13 The witness was arrested on the 27th of May, 1992. He was held

14 in the SUP in Brcko and then taken to Luka camp. He was detained there

15 from the 27th of May to the 7th of June,1992. He describes in his earlier

16 testimony the camp conditions and personnel. Konstantin Simonovic, aka

17 Kosta, described himself as the commander of Luka camp. The witness

18 describes the physical abuse of detainees and an occasion when he

19 witnessed the killing of at least two detainees. One of the perpetrators

20 was one of the witness's Serb neighbours called Ranko Cesic. The witness

21 describes another perpetrator who wore camouflage SMB uniform and was fond

22 of introducing himself as a member of the Radical Party from Bijeljina, a

23 Chetnik. He incised a cross onto the forehead of one detainee with a

24 knife. Members of Arkan Tigers also came to the camp. The witness

25 himself was beaten up by one of Arkan's men, who came to camp from time to

Page 26434

1 time.

2 The witness also testified about Goran Jelisic and his physical

3 abuse of men at Luka camp. On one occasion, the witness describes that he

4 had to take part in disposing of dead bodies at Luka camp into the River

5 Sava. On one occasion, a vehicle pulled up at the camp. On it was

6 written "The Republic Secretariat for the Interior of the Republic of

7 Serbia." In it were a man in uniform, in camouflage, who was a major, and

8 two civilian policemen, one wearing the insignia of the Ministry of the

9 Interior of Serbia and one wearing the insignia of the Federal Ministry of

10 the Interior. They came to see two men identified as Muslim sniper men.

11 Both men, the witness describes, had been beaten regularly by Jelisic, one

12 on questioning denied being a sniper. The major told Kosta to get both of

13 them medical care.

14 On the 7th of June, 1992, Rade Bozic came to Luka camp. He was

15 accompanied by Kosta Simonovic. Bozic said he would do everything he

16 could to get the witness out of the camp. He returned about two hours

17 later and took the witness away. He drove the witness to a motel in

18 Zvornik. When they arrived in front of the motel, the witness saw 30 or

19 40 Red Berets at the entrance. The witness met Captain Dragan. Bozic

20 then drove the witness, Dragan, a woman from Dragan's fund, and a

21 journalist to Belgrade. Dragan explained that the witness's wife and a

22 sports friend from Belgrade had helped him and that was why he had been

23 released from the camp.

24 Your Honour, I have a few supplemental questions for the witness.

25 JUDGE MAY: Yes.

Page 26435

1 MS. PACK:

2 Q. Mr. Gasi, during your first week at Luka camp, did there come a

3 time when you were approached by a member of the camp personnel, who asked

4 you a question about a phone number?

5 A. Yes. A man walked up to me. I think he was a lieutenant

6 colonel. He wore a reserve JNA uniform, and he asked me allegedly that

7 first day -- or rather, the second day he -- I had already been questioned

8 by a group of policemen. There were three of them in the office, and he

9 said that he had listened to my interview and he heard that one of the

10 questions was where my wife was, and I said that she was in Belgrade,

11 staying with a friend. And then this --

12 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: Not lieutenant

13 colonel, second lieutenant.

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] And I asked somebody to make a

15 phone call to my wife and to tell her that I was still alive, and then I

16 gave the number and that was it.

17 MS. PACK:

18 Q. Did you later hear whether or not your wife had been contacted?

19 A. Yes. Yes. I found out about that later, when I was set free,

20 when I was in Belgrade with this friend. Actually, he was the one who

21 answered the telephone then, when that call was made. I mean, this

22 friend, one of these Serbs. Now, I don't know whether it was exactly this

23 one, but he's the only one who got the telephone number, and then he

24 called this sports friend of mine and said that I was down there in Luka

25 and that there were 48 hours -- or rather, they had 48 hours to get me out

Page 26436

1 of Luka. That's what he told this friend of mine, and that they should go

2 only to Captain Dragan, that he's the only one who could get me out of

3 there, and if they did not get me out of there, then Ranko, one of these

4 local men from Brcko, would come and that I'd get a bullet in my head.

5 Q. Did your wife subsequently go to Dragan to ask for help?

6 A. I heard from my wife and from this sports friend of mine that

7 this was in the early evening when this man who said he was a Serb and

8 said that he called. The next morning they went to the Captain Dragan

9 Foundation. She says it was around 7.00 in the morning. Well, I don't

10 know exactly. But anyway, before anybody else would come. And then after

11 a while -- I mean, she and this friend of mine were there and they were

12 waiting in a hall. I mean, that's what she said to me. And she asked

13 some people who worked there whether she could speak to Captain Dragan.

14 However, then she told me later - and I heard about this from her and from

15 that other friend of mine - it wasn't all that easy to see Captain Dragan,

16 that he was not there and there was no chance for her to see him on that

17 day. However, she was persistent. She stayed there and she stood there,

18 I don't know for how long, and then all of a sudden she said that he got

19 out of the elevator, this Captain Dragan, I guess, surrounded by, I don't

20 know, say, four or five people wearing civilian uniforms. And then she

21 jumped up. I guess she recognised him, because she had seen his picture

22 in the newspaper somewhere. And then she got through all these people who

23 were around him and --

24 JUDGE MAY: I don't think we need the detail but we do need to

25 understand what the story is. I mean, it appears to be -- is this it?

Page 26437

1 Perhaps you can explain -- that the witness's wife was in Belgrade? Is

2 this the point? She was told that she had to go and see Captain Dragan in

3 order to get the witness out. Is this -- is this what he's trying to tell

4 us? And then eventually she did.

5 MS. PACK: That's the point, Your Honour.

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that's it. Yes. Yes.

7 Exactly.

8 MS. PACK:

9 Q. Pause there, Mr. Gasi. You were subsequently picked up by Rade

10 Bozic from Luka camp and taken away from there. Where did you go first

11 with him?

12 A. When he came to Luka, the first time he came I did not know why

13 he had come, and that's what I said in my testimony earlier on. When I

14 was walking out of that office, he asked me whether he could do something

15 for me, and then I said, "Well, yes, get me out of here if I'm such a good

16 man, as you had put it." And he said, "I'm going to see what I can do for

17 you." And the second time he came he was accompanied by this man who did

18 have a red beret on his head, and I think he was called Pedza, I think.

19 Q. Once he had picked you up from the camp, on the second

20 occasion -- after the second occasion upon which he came there, where did

21 he take you first in Brcko?

22 A. First I went to my apartment, accompanied by the two of them. I

23 took my things from the apartment. And then he said to me, "Now you're

24 going for a longish journey." He didn't tell me exactly where. He said:

25 "You'll be set free, but you're going to take a longish journey." And

Page 26438

1 then we set out from Brcko from the centre of town along the road to

2 Bijeljina. We passed by my company -- or to be quite precise, we stopped

3 at my company and the people there saw me, and then we went to

4 Mistrafovica gasoline station and we turned right to the customs zone.

5 When we got to the customs zone, then he parked the car right in front of

6 the gate. Inside, within the parking lot --

7 Q. Tell us, please, how long you remained at the customs zone.

8 A. Well, perhaps half an hour. I don't know exactly. Well, not

9 more than half an hour.

10 Q. Tell us, please, what you saw there.

11 A. In front of these buildings, there were vehicles that were

12 parked. I think they were Pinzgauers, blue ones, and there were others

13 too. What do they call them now in the JNA? Those combat vehicles for

14 transporting the infantry. And it said, "Special Unit of the MUP of

15 Serbia, Arkan's Tigers." That is what was written on this ordinary wooden

16 board. And these vehicles were parked in front of these buildings. While

17 he went over there -- I don't know. I saw him through the window. He

18 talked to someone on the telephone, and then he came back and then he

19 showed a finger to me, sort of thumbs up, this sign. And he said,

20 "Everything is fine and we are going to go on from here."

21 Q. These ordinary wooden boards that you describe, where were they

22 positioned? You saw them at the customs zone; is that right?

23 A. Yes, in front of these buildings where these vehicles were

24 parked, they put those inscriptions on these wooden boards. I have no

25 idea why this was done. Well, these vehicles were parked there anyway. I

Page 26439

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Page 26440

1 guess it was for the vehicles to park there. And later on, as we were

2 driving, he said to me that the men from Serbia usually slept there.

3 Q. You then were driven to Zvornik. And I'm not going to ask you

4 about the detail of that journey. We've already heard about that.

5 During the course of that journey, you talked with Bozic. Did

6 there come a time when he told you who he worked for? And who did he

7 name?

8 A. Yes. He asked whether I knew who stood behind my release. And I

9 said, "I don't know." And he said, "Have you ever heard of Captain

10 Dragan?" And I said, "Well, yes, I have, because I read about him

11 sometime and he was on TV a few times when the war started in Croatia,

12 saying that he was the commander of those Red Berets there, the Kninjas,

13 as they were called, the Red Berets. And then this Captain Dragan was the

14 reason why I would be set free. Apparently he was supposed to meet me and

15 welcome me later on as well.

16 Q. Thank you.

17 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Well, that's an appropriate time. We'll

18 adjourn now.

19 Mr. Gasi, could you remember during this adjournment and any

20 others there may be in your evidence not to speak to anybody about it

21 until it's over, and that does include the members of the Prosecution

22 team.

23 Thank you. We'll adjourn now for 20 minutes.

24 --- Recess taken at 12.20 p.m.

25 --- On resuming at 12.43 p.m.

Page 26441

1 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Ms. Pack.

2 MS. PACK:

3 Q. Mr. Gasi, these signs that you've described at the customs zone,

4 can you tell us, please, were there other signs there, or were those the

5 only signs that you saw?

6 A. I told you that there were blue Pinzgauers and there were these

7 signs and there were also some combat vehicles. I think they belonged to

8 the JNA.

9 Q. [Previous interpretation continues] ... Mr. Gasi, were the signs

10 you saw official signs or were they hand painted?

11 A. What I told you I saw, they had signs written in colour and by

12 hand to indicate where these various vehicles should be parked, and these

13 boards were on the walls. For instance, members of the MUP of Serbia had

14 a particular parking lot, then members of the Serbian Radical Party again,

15 and I think there were Arkan's Tigers as well. Among others, there were

16 APCs from the JNA.

17 Q. [Previous interpretation continues] ... next question: You drove

18 in a car with Dragan to Belgrade. Tell us, please, what he said to you

19 during that journey.

20 A. For a while he was sitting in front, next to Rade Bozic. Then we

21 had a break. I think it was in Muzice, at a motel there. Then he said he

22 would come and sit by me on my right. And then he told me that I should

23 come to his foundation once I had a bath, a shave, and everything, to

24 write down on a couple of pages when I was arrested, who arrested me, all

25 the things I had seen in Brcko before the war, when the war broke out, and

Page 26442

1 all the things I had heard and seen at Luka, while I was imprisoned there;

2 what kind of uniforms people wore when they came in, did anyone kill

3 anyone.

4 Q. [Previous interpretation continues] ... can you tell us, please,

5 did you subsequently go to Dragan's office and write something for him, as

6 he had suggested you do?

7 A. Yes, I did. I think it was two or three days later. Once I had

8 put myself in order, I wrote down those two pages and took them to Captain

9 Dragan's Fund.

10 Q. Did you give him a full account of what had happened in Brcko?

11 A. I don't know as to the full account. I did my best to write it

12 down, to say I had seen Red Berets and various other people. I didn't

13 mention them. I just said I saw people in camouflage uniform, people from

14 the JNA, and some other things. But I didn't describe any specific

15 killing or torture. I didn't say who the people were, what they looked

16 like. When I gave it to him, he read it out and it was typed for him on

17 two pages and then he called in someone -- called someone on the phone and

18 told him that he should give him -- open the fax so -- he has something of

19 interest to fax to him. I was sitting in the office, so I heard this.

20 And then he dialled the number and faxed this to some other person, and we

21 sat there for maybe half an hour --

22 Q. What happened after he --

23 A. -- talking about sport.

24 Q. [Previous interpretation continues] ... did you receive a call

25 after that?

Page 26443

1 A. He called up again that same number and asked, "What do you think

2 about all this?" And he indicated to me like this, indicating that I had

3 done a good thing, that I was an okay guy, and that was all.

4 Q. Pause there. That was a thumbs-up sign you indicated.

5 Did he then -- what did he do with the fax after that?

6 A. What I had written by hand and the typed version, he said to me,

7 "You've done your bit, you're okay, you have no obligations towards me

8 and you're free to go." And that was it.

9 MS. PACK: I have no further questions.

10 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Milosevic.

11 Cross-examined by Mr. Milosevic:

12 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Gasi, first a question in reference to

13 something you mentioned a moment ago, that there was a rally in Brcko

14 attended by officials of the SDS and a minister from the government of

15 Serbia. Is that right?

16 A. Yes. I said that in my testimony.

17 Q. Very well. And this minister from Serbia was saying that

18 everyone should live together.

19 A. It wasn't an SDS rally. To be more accurate, it was the

20 Prosvjeta Art and Culture Society that was holding a rally. And as I said

21 in my testimony, almost everyone attended from the leadership of the

22 Serbian Democratic Party. It was an open meeting held in the cultural

23 centre, and everyone was speaking. There were a couple of academicians

24 from Belgrade. Others were talking about tensions and things. Whereas, as

25 far as I can remember, he was saying that no one had to write to separate

Page 26444

1 by force the Serbian people in Bosnia from those in Serbia, that Serbia

2 would always support the Serbian people in Bosnia. As for life together,

3 to be quite frank, I can't remember. Maybe he may have said something to

4 that effect. But this is what stuck in my memory. And of course, he was

5 introduced -- I can't remember the name, but I think it was Cvjetinovic or

6 Cvjetkovic or something like that. But that was along those lines that he

7 spoke.

8 Q. So it wasn't really a rally. It was some kind of a cultural

9 event by the culture and arts society, Prosvjeta.

10 A. Yes. That is what it should have been. But it turned into more

11 of a political rally. That is my opinion. Maybe -- I may be wrong, but

12 that was the impression I had. And I didn't feel comfortable.

13 Q. When was this meeting?

14 A. I can't remember exactly, but I think it was after the referendum

15 in Bosnia and Herzegovina on independence. I think so. But please, I

16 can't remember exactly the date.

17 Q. A moment ago, when a summary was read of your statement, I noted

18 down that you said that this man said that everyone should live together.

19 A. I told you, and I repeat: If that is what was said, he may have

20 said it. But I remember the part when he said that Serbs in

21 Bosnia-Herzegovina should not worry, that Serbia would always stand with

22 them. That is something that impressed me. He may have said other

23 things, but this is what impressed me, and I am telling you that, to the

24 best of my recollection.

25 Q. Let's clear up one more thing. You were arrested on the 27th of

Page 26445

1 May and released on the 7th of June; is that right?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. So your testimony regarding those events relate to that ten-day

4 period, because after ten days you left.

5 A. Yes. Work it out. From the 27th of May to the 7th of June. I

6 was arrested about 11.00 on the 27th of May and I was taken out on the 7th

7 of June, around noon by Rade Bozic.

8 Q. This Rade Bozic that you mentioned, he was your neighbour?

9 A. No, he's not my neighbour.

10 Q. Who is that man?

11 A. In the testimony that you have probably received a copy of, it

12 says that talking to him I learnt that he was a professional officer of

13 the JNA. That is what he told me. And that he belongs to a special

14 police special purpose unit. I think that he mentioned that he was born

15 in Karlovac, in Croatia.

16 Q. And he was commander of the special unit of the military police;

17 is that right?

18 A. That is what he told me.

19 Q. Soldiers wearing red berets were in that unit.

20 A. Among others, he, too, had a red beret. He didn't put it on his

21 head, but he had it folded on his shoulder.

22 Q. Very well. You gave your statement to the investigators in April

23 1995. And at the very beginning you say that at the beginning you saw two

24 JNA airplanes bombing a certain part of Brcko.

25 A. Bombing a part of Brcko? I see them -- I saw them when they flew

Page 26446

1 in from the south-easterly direction, and they were flying at a low

2 altitude, and they passed by my building. And on the way back - I don't

3 know how much later, a couple of minutes later - and as they returned, I

4 heard explosions and detonations. Now, whether they bombed or not, I

5 can't say. But anyway, once they had flown back past my building,

6 explosions could be heard in town.

7 Q. You say that this happened at the beginning of the fighting in

8 Brcko; is that right?

9 A. I don't know what you mean "At the beginning of the fighting in

10 Brcko." This was the 2nd of May, I think, when I saw them. Now, whether

11 the fighting started on the 2nd or the 4th or 5th of May in Brcko, I can't

12 say with certainty.

13 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Gasi, I'm going to ask that you have a copy of

14 your statement in front of you so you can refer to it when you want.

15 Now, the accused's time is limited. He's only going to have

16 about an hour to ask you questions, so could you for your part try and

17 keep your answers as short as you can. Just concentrate on his questions,

18 and if you can, answer them. If you can't understand them, just say so.

19 Yes, Mr. Milosevic, your next question.

20 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I will do my best to speed this up.

21 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

22 Q. Who was fighting who in Brcko?

23 A. To tell you the truth, I don't know.

24 Q. And what was there in the north-western part of Brcko, which was

25 allegedly bombed by these JNA planes? Did you see them actually bombing

Page 26447

1 that part of Brcko?

2 A. I told you. I just heard explosions coming from that direction.

3 Now, what they bombed, I don't know.

4 Q. Do you know whether they bombed anything at all?

5 A. They probably did.

6 Q. In this north-west section of Brcko, were there any significant

7 strongholds of the Muslim forces?

8 A. I don't know that.

9 Q. In your statement to the investigators, you said that you were a

10 member of the executive board of the SDA.

11 A. Yes, I was.

12 Q. From the 26th of May, 1990; is that right?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. As a party activist and a member of the executive board, you were

15 certainly familiar with the activities linked to the arming in Brcko.

16 A. No. I am not aware of that. I resigned just before the actual

17 elections in Bosnia. As for arming, I don't know anything about that.

18 Q. In Copenhagen, you gave a statement on the 7th of May, 1993 to

19 the Danish Helsinki Committee; is that right?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And in it you said that there was shooting in the barricades in

22 the Muslim parts of the town.

23 A. What the Danish Helsinki Committee took from me, I was never

24 given a copy in translation. I later received an English version. And

25 what was stated in that interview was something that I didn't sign nor did

Page 26448

1 I say that. They compiled this from statements from other people as well.

2 JUDGE MAY: Just pause a moment.

3 Does the Prosecution have a copy?

4 MS. PACK: Yes.

5 JUDGE MAY: In which language, please?

6 MS. PACK: It's since been translated into B/C/S, so we have one

7 in B/C/S.

8 JUDGE MAY: Now, that's a copy of your statement, Mr. Gasi, and

9 you can refer to it if you're asked my more questions about it.

10 Yes, Mr. Milosevic.

11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well.

12 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

13 Q. You say that the greatest crimes were not committed by the army

14 but paramilitary groups that arrived after the army. Does that concur

15 with your own experience?

16 A. Let me tell you. I saw the Yugoslav army in town. Now, whether

17 the army or I don't know who with the army committed the killings, I don't

18 know. All I know is they had SMB uniforms in one colour and then

19 camouflage uniforms. Now, you're referring again to this interview with

20 the Danish Helsinki federation, which I don't abide by. What I do abide

21 by is this other statement of which I signed every page. I did give an

22 interview to this organisation through a very poor interpreter and I saw

23 it for the first time when I came here.

24 Q. Very well, then. In your statement, you mention the names of a

25 certain number of local Serbs; is that right?

Page 26449

1 JUDGE MAY: Which statement is that? Is this the one to the

2 Prosecution or the Helsinki one?

3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] To the Prosecution.

4 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Refer the witness to the passage.

5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] There are several names mentioned

6 in many paragraphs. Throughout the statement he mentions various names.

7 And that is why I'm trying to summarise this. On every page you can find

8 a name that he mentions.

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Do you mean the policemen Ranko

10 Cesic, Miso Cajevic, Dragan Zivkovic, Radivoje Knezevic, Stevo Knezevic,

11 Dragan Pantelic?

12 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

13 Q. Yes. Goran Markovic, Pero -- from Brcko, Knezevic, Zivkovic,

14 Cajevic, Cesic. Are they all locals from Brcko?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Did you link to these people something that happened in Brcko?

17 As you say that people were killed, are these people responsible for those

18 killings?

19 A. One of them is. Ranko Cesic, I saw him kill two men.

20 Q. Very well. And did you see any JNA member killing someone?

21 A. I didn't see that. I didn't say I did in my statement.

22 Q. I'm just asking you, regardless of whether you said that or not.

23 So you didn't see any JNA member killing anyone.

24 A. Well, Ranko Cesic, he belonged to the JNA. Who else could he

25 have belonged to? He was wearing a camouflage uniform of the JNA.

Page 26450

1 Q. But these are people from Brcko that we are talking about.

2 A. He is from Brcko.

3 Q. And is it true that on page 2, paragraphs 4 and 5, and page 3,

4 paragraph 2, you link all those names to certain killings near Stari Grad?

5 Is that right?

6 A. No. I'm not linking them. I didn't see them, because the people

7 who were killing at Stari Grad, they had masks over their heads, hoods

8 with openings for the eyes. So I didn't link them to that in my

9 statement. I said they may have been, but not -- I did not accuse them in

10 my testimony.

11 Q. On page 4, paragraph 1, you say that most of the soldiers you saw

12 were from Bijeljina or Serbia. Is that what you said?

13 A. Most of those who were guarding us, they introduced themselves.

14 They said they -- where they were from. Those I had contact with were

15 either from Bijeljina, Ugljevik, or villages around Bijeljina, those who

16 wanted to talk to us. As for the one who beat me up on the first day,

17 everyone told me that his name was Ivan, and I saw that he wore the patch

18 of the Arkan's Tigers.

19 Q. So you didn't see anyone else from Serbia?

20 A. Later on in my testimony you will find that, when these people

21 came in a police Golf vehicle, and on the door was the emblem of the

22 Republic of Serbia. They were members of the Ministry of the Interior,

23 and this one major who entered inside accompanied by these two policemen,

24 one of them wore the old Yugoslav coat of arms and the other one the

25 emblem of the Republic of Serbia. They were policemen. And this JNA

Page 26451

1 major was wearing a camouflage uniform.

2 Q. I see, a JNA major and two officers, one from the MUP of Serbia

3 and one from the federal police. What did they want?

4 A. They wanted to see Muslim snipers.

5 Q. Were they some sort of investigators or something like that?

6 A. I don't know what they were. In any event, Kosta, who came with

7 them, was asked to show them these two Muslim snipers. That is what they

8 said out loud in the hangar, and then they came and saw them.

9 Q. Out of these that you mention as appearing there, listening to

10 the summary, you said that the man in charge was Ranko Cesic, who was your

11 neighbour; is that right?

12 A. I didn't say that he was in charge. I said that he came to Luka

13 repeatedly.

14 Q. He's your neighbour?

15 A. Yes, from my building.

16 Q. And there was someone from Bijeljina too.

17 A. Not just someone. There was -- on several occasions, there was

18 Mirko Blagojevic; Vojvoda, the duke, who gave -- lectured us; then others

19 who broke in at night and beat people.

20 Q. Now, those who came in the middle of the night and beat people,

21 were they people from the area or were they people from Serbia or the JNA?

22 A. Camouflage uniforms, battery lamps, poles, telling us to sing

23 about Serbian songs, about Arkan and Greater Serbia, that's all.

24 Q. My question is: Were they people from Serbia or the JNA or were

25 they people that you knew, locals?

Page 26452

1 A. Those who were beating us that night, I don't know them. I have

2 never seen them. That's how it was.

3 Q. Who is Mile Gatarevic, known as Bule?

4 A. That's a local Serb from Brcko. Now, you're pulling that out of

5 that Helsinki committee interview. I don't know how it got there.

6 Q. So you didn't mention him?

7 A. In this testimony for this Tribunal, I did not.

8 Q. But in addition to that testimony, I also got a copy of this. I

9 didn't make it up. I'm just asking you.

10 A. He was a member of the Radical Party in Brcko, before the war,

11 and he was in Brcko.

12 Q. Did he commit a crime?

13 A. I don't know. I didn't see him in Luka while I was there.

14 Q. So you don't know anything about that?

15 A. I don't.

16 Q. You say that you saw somebody being -- many people being killed

17 from a house in the centre of town.

18 A. To be more precise, 14 or 15 were killed on that day.

19 Q. In this same statement, on page 3, paragraph 1, you saw that you

20 saw 300 to 400 people being killed in a house from the centre of town.

21 A. That's a mistranslation. Again, the Helsinki committee put that,

22 when they asked me what my assessment was of how many people were killed

23 in Brcko in that period, I said 300 to 400. Now, how they placed that

24 figure into this context, I really don't know.

25 Q. What did you see?

Page 26453

1 A. I said that I saw people being executed at Stari Grad. They shot

2 a group of five or six; then at another spot, another five or six. And a

3 policeman in a blue uniform killed three men, after turning them to face

4 the wall, at close range.

5 Q. Who were those people who killed those civilians?

6 A. One was in a blue police uniform. He had his back turned to me.

7 Whereas, those who were killing on the road, who had lined people up

8 against the wall, they were wearing SMB camouflage uniforms and they had

9 black camouflage caps over their heads. And one of them, I heard, was

10 shouting, "I want 30 for one of mine." That's what I heard.

11 Q. But I understood it that you were saying that there was a police

12 chief by the name of Drago Veselic who was in command of that operation.

13 A. I did mention Drago Veselic, because they asked me at the

14 Helsinki committee who the police chief was, and I told them. Now, how

15 this came about, that you -- well, yes, he was actually a police chief.

16 Q. Well, he wasn't linked up with the killings, was he, the ones

17 you've just talked about?

18 A. Well, you could link him to them, because the SUP from the

19 building is just 50 metres from the spot the killing took place, so I

20 assume they heard the killing take place.

21 Q. All right. Now, on the 27th of May, 1992 on the premises of

22 Elektrobrcko you were arrested by two policemen; is that right?

23 A. Yes, that's right.

24 Q. Were they policemen whom you knew from Brcko?

25 A. I knew both of them, yes.

Page 26454

1 Q. And then you saw a police inspector. Was he from Brcko too?

2 A. Which police inspector? These two policemen took me to the SUP

3 building.

4 Q. And that's when you saw the police inspector in the building?

5 A. No, they came to Luka. The police inspectors came to Luka, not

6 on that first day but on the second day.

7 Q. All right. You say that a certain man named Pero transferred you

8 to the hangars in Luka where you were met by a certain man called Miodrag

9 Nedic.

10 A. Pudic met me and he was a policeman before the war, and I think

11 he's still a policeman actually. So he was there and he wanted to take a

12 pistol to hit me on the head with it. But he changed his mind and took me

13 into an office. Now, why they took me there, I don't know. But there was

14 a lieutenant colonel sitting there and two other men on his right. One of

15 them had a cockade on his uniform, a big beard too, and he jumped up and

16 was going to hit me on the head with the nozzle.

17 Q. All right. Do you know that at that time or even before that

18 actual period of time, JNA units were not there at all?

19 A. What do you mean weren't there? I saw them on a daily basis.

20 Q. What JNA unit did you see? Who did you see belonging to the JNA?

21 A. In Brcko itself?

22 Q. Yes.

23 A. Everyone from the barracks and opposite the training ground

24 belonging to my own company, all of them were there. And on one occasion

25 Colonel Milinkovic came -- Lieutenant Colonel Milinkovic came with an

Page 26455

1 escort. They came to my company's building and I saw them at the gates.

2 Q. All right. Now, on page 6, paragraph 5 of your statement, you

3 say that three or four local Serbs wearing police uniforms asked for

4 volunteers from amongst the prisoners in order to clean the SUP building

5 up. And then you go on to say that amongst them you recognised Pero and

6 Miso Cajevic, also people whom you happened to know from Brcko; is that

7 right?

8 A. You seem to be referring to the Helsinki committee again. All

9 right. But yes, Pero was with them and so was Miso Cajevic. And I didn't

10 put myself forward as a volunteer. Another one wearing a camouflage

11 uniform said, "Come on, you. You've got a lot of muscle. You go and do

12 the job."

13 Q. And then when you were at the SUP building itself, you saw the

14 killing of two of the prisoners there from Luka; is that right?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Where did this actually take place?

17 A. In the SUP building by the garages.

18 Q. You mean in the yard of the building, then?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. And who did the killings?

21 A. I told you, I didn't recognise the men. One of the men was shot

22 straight away in the parking lot. The other one escaped and started to

23 flee and then this other man took up an automatic rifle and shot at him in

24 his -- at his feet, but then he came up close to him and killed him from

25 short range.

Page 26456

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Page 26457

1 Q. Were these the local policemen too? Because you said you saw

2 three policemen wearing summer police uniforms.

3 A. I don't know. I couldn't see from where I was.

4 JUDGE MAY: Were these the two detainees -- you saw two detainees

5 being killed, you said, at the camp. Are these two at the SUP building

6 those two, or did you see other people being killed at the camp?

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They took us out of Luka. There

8 were about 10 to 15 of us in the group. Now, whether they killed two men

9 from that particular group, I can't tell you, because there were other

10 people in the SUP building. But there was a general noise and commotion,

11 and when that happened, I heard people rush up the stairs and say, "Where

12 are the others? Kill the others too." That's what happened.

13 JUDGE MAY: Did you -- just one moment, Mr. Milosevic. There's

14 something I want to clarify.

15 Did you see anybody being killed at the camp itself?

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. I saw Ranko Cesic take four

17 men out of the office, and I saw him hit two of them, who fell to the

18 ground. Now, whether they were shot down dead, I don't know. But he shot

19 from a distance of 2 metres in -- at their backs. They were hit. They

20 fell to the ground. Now, whether they were dead or not, I can't say. And

21 that happened in Luka.

22 JUDGE MAY: And how many men do you know or can you give us some

23 idea how many men were in the Luka camp at the time that you were? Do you

24 have any idea or not?

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I did count the men at one time,

Page 26458

1 and there were between 150 and 200 of them, depending. They would come

2 and go. Sometimes they would go and not come back, and I don't know what

3 happened to them. So there was between 120 to 200.

4 JUDGE MAY: And before the war, what had the camp been? What was

5 it? Was it a camp before the war or was it something else? Do you know?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was Luka, a port, and the ships

7 would bring in their cargo. It was actually a port, Luka.

8 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Milosevic.

9 Well, just one further thing: Do you know how many men were

10 killed in all in Luka? Maybe you don't. But if you do, perhaps you could

11 tell us.

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In my statement, I said that I saw

13 those two men being killed by Ranko Cesic. Now, I don't know how many

14 more there were. On one occasion, when we were throwing the corpses into

15 the port, I would say that -- now, whether these people were killed in the

16 port or brought in from elsewhere, but on that heap of bodies I think

17 there were about 20 of them, plus the two that I saw being -- were killed.

18 I don't know whether that is the total number or not, but that's what I

19 saw.

20 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

21 Q. All right. But you said in paragraph 1 on page 7 of your

22 statement - and you refer to that statement - you said: "I watched the

23 incident for about two minutes. I didn't know the victims. However, I do

24 know that they were from Brcko. We were afraid after the shooting, and

25 after the shooting in the office from which we watched the shootings, Boro

Page 26459

1 Kaurinovic turned up, a police officer before the fighting began, and he

2 told us to stay in the office." Now, this policeman, he told you to

3 remain in the office to prevent you from getting hurt; is that right?

4 A. Well, he pushed us into another office. And what you asked me

5 about a moment ago about the two men who were killed, I heard about that

6 from others, so I assumed that they were from Brcko, but I didn't actually

7 know them myself.

8 Q. All right. But this man Boro Kaurinovic, who was also from

9 Brcko, as you say, did he actually save your life? Because he took you

10 off and pushed you into another building and stopped you from getting

11 hurt.

12 A. Yes, probably that was it. The one that did the shouting outside

13 asked, "Where are the other Turks so we can kill them too?"

14 Q. So there was general chaos there, was there, and this Boro

15 Kaurinovic, who was an inhabitant of your town set you aside in another

16 office to prevent the others from killing you and then you were returned

17 to Luka, the port; is that right?

18 A. Well, as to the general chaos, I wouldn't put it that way,

19 because everything was nonetheless controlled by the JNA. I think that

20 everything was controlled from the garrison by them there. So yes, they

21 did sort of save -- well, perhaps that man did save me at that particular

22 point in time, and I thank him for that.

23 Q. All right. In paragraph 2 on page 8, you speak of the killing of

24 four detainees from Luka, when, as you say, you recognised Ranko Cesic, a

25 man called Miso Cajevic, and another man whom we mentioned previously,

Page 26460

1 Pudic -- or you mentioned Pudic.

2 A. Yes. Pudic was always there.

3 Q. All right. Now, all these three men that I -- whose names I've

4 just read out, were they the people from Brcko?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. All right. Fine.

7 You've just mentioned some 20 corpses that you happened to notice

8 in a part of the hangar, and among those bodies you recognised that of

9 Sead Cerimagic and of Elvedin Salkanovic. Now, do you know who killed

10 those people?

11 A. You said in a part of the hangar. It wasn't a part of the

12 hangar. They took us out to the banks of the River Sava, behind the

13 hangar, actually, and that's where this heap of corpses was. As to

14 recognising these people, well, I saw the T-shirt that one of the guys

15 were wearing and he was also a member of our sports club and he would wear

16 that kind of T-shirt, so I assume that was him, one of them was him. As

17 to the others, as to Sead's killing, I really can't be sure whether I

18 actually recognised him. Perhaps I did. Anyway, it was difficult to

19 recognise anybody; only if you remembered some detail as to what they were

20 wearing, their clothing or anything of that kind. Otherwise, all those

21 were corpses. It was actually very difficult.

22 Q. All right. On page 10, paragraph 2, you go on to say that you

23 and the other detainees in Luka knew that the commander of the camp was a

24 man called Vojkan Djurkovic; is that right?

25 A. Major Djurkovic. He came two or three times. He came into the

Page 26461

1 hangar. And then the detainees would gather round him, and he would give

2 a speech of some kind and tell us how he saved somebody's life, and he'd

3 say, "I saved your brother's life," and he would address a detainee. And

4 he said that he was the camp commander to begin with. Now, I don't know

5 whether he actually was or not.

6 Q. Was he a major of the army of Republika Srpska and also a local

7 inhabitant?

8 A. I don't know of him being a major of the army of Republika

9 Srpska. The only army that existed was the JNA in Brcko. Now, what it

10 came to be called later on, I really can't say. I think he said that he

11 was a native of Bijeljina, actually.

12 Q. Well, all right. That's the same region, isn't it, the same

13 general area.

14 A. Well, Brcko, Bijeljina, maybe it is. It's at a distance of some

15 50 kilometres.

16 Q. Now, all right. But do you know that he actually ordered any

17 killing? Because I can see from what you say here that the detainees said

18 he was good to them and that his men would bring them cigarettes and

19 things like that.

20 A. Well, I didn't describe what he brought in or didn't, but from

21 what I heard, at the time the killings took place mostly at the beginning,

22 when the camp -- Luka camp first opened. Now, who brought whom cigarettes

23 and whether anybody brought cigarettes in at all, I don't know. I am not

24 a smoker myself so I wasn't interested in that, so I really can't say. I

25 don't know. All I do know is that I was beaten black and blue by them

Page 26462

1 while I was there and so were others. Others were beaten too. And that's

2 it. Now, whether they came to bring in cigarettes or anything of the

3 kind, or took people off to clean their cars, wash their cars and then

4 they would be brought back, and things like.

5 Q. You also mentioned the name of a Chetnik named Enver; is that

6 right?

7 A. Yes. That's right.

8 Q. Well, if his name was Enver, I assume he was a Muslim, wasn't he,

9 and I also assume it must have been a local inhabitant, a local of some

10 kind.

11 A. He had patches on which denoted a Chetnik, with the cockade. And

12 he said his name was Enver and that he was a Chetnik; that is to say, a

13 member of the Radical Party too. Now, whether he gave us his real name or

14 not, I can't say. I don't know people and I can't recognise ethnic groups

15 judging by the names.

16 Q. Well, if he was -- his name was Enver, he couldn't have been a

17 Serb.

18 A. Well, I can say my name is George and I wouldn't be an American.

19 Q. All right. So ten days later, on the 7th of June, when you were

20 released, you were released by this man called Rade Bozic; is that right?

21 A. Yes, on the 7th of June. Right. The 7th of June. Yes,

22 precisely.

23 Q. And he told you that he was a Serb from Karlovac in Croatia; is

24 that right?

25 A. He said that he was a professional captain of the military police

Page 26463

1 and that he was born in Karlovac in Croatia. That's what he said.

2 Q. And then on page 11, paragraph 3, you say that Rade Bozic said

3 that he was a professional soldier of the JNA; is that right?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. And that was the only member of the JNA whom you mention as being

6 a direct participant in any of the events you discuss in your statements;

7 is that right?

8 A. Well, it's not quite right, because when I went outside, I saw

9 tanks and transporters, APCs lined up. And when I moved around town, I

10 saw JNA checkpoints manned by the police, manned by people wearing red

11 berets.

12 Q. You didn't understand me, Mr. Gasi. I said that that was the

13 only member of the JNA whom you mention as being a direct participant in

14 the events, whose name you give us. That's the only man, isn't it, the

15 one who took you out of the camp.

16 A. He took me out of the camp. Nobody else took me out; he did.

17 Q. So he took you out and took you away from Brcko to Zvornik; is

18 that right?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. And that's where you got to know Captain Dragan. You met Captain

21 Dragan; right?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. So you were freed at the initiative of Captain Dragan who -- and

24 your wife asked him to do her that favour; is that right?

25 A. Yes, that's right.

Page 26464

1 Q. But you were taken out of Luka by this man Rade Bozic.

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. At his intervention --

4 A. Yes, that's what he said. He said the big boss had ordered him

5 to take me to Belgrade.

6 Q. All right. And then he told you that while you were on your way

7 to Belgrade together, that you should rest up for a few days, as you say

8 on page 7, paragraph 1 of your statement, to have a rest for four days,

9 have a rest for four days and write down everything you experienced and

10 saw; is that it?

11 A. Yes. Yes, that's right.

12 Q. And then he typed out that statement of yours, or somebody typed

13 it out for him, and he faxed it to someone, did he?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Well, do you know who he sent the fax to?

16 A. No, I don't.

17 Q. Well, is it true, then, that that sending out of your report or

18 statement was his attempt to record your experience and stay in Luka camp

19 as testimony to what happened there, to gather information about what was

20 going on there?

21 JUDGE MAY: The witness can't tell us what Captain Dragan was

22 thinking unless he --

23 Did he tell you, Mr. Gasi, why he was asking you to make this

24 statement?

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I told you before. He said, "Sit

Page 26465

1 down, have a rest, and write everything you saw before the war in Brcko,

2 everything you saw during the war in Brcko, and everything you saw while

3 you were in Luka at Brcko, what types of uniforms you saw," and that's

4 what I did. I wrote all that down for him. Now, I don't know who he sent

5 it to or why he sent it to anybody.

6 JUDGE MAY: He didn't tell you why he wanted you to write all

7 this down; is that right?

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, he didn't. I don't know.

9 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Milosevic.

10 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

11 Q. All right. Now, you asked him to help your brothers. And

12 according to what you had learnt, they were in the Batkovic camp as

13 detainees; is that right?

14 A. Yes, they were.

15 Q. His answer to you was that he couldn't help you on that score.

16 A. The first time he didn't give me an answer, so I had to go again,

17 and he said he'd see what he could do. But I never heard anything from

18 him after that. So he said, "Don't contact me. Don't call me. I'll call

19 you via friends and let you know," but I don't know what happened.

20 Q. All right. Now, does that mean that when you were freed he

21 pulled some strings of his, personal ones, and used his authority, which

22 he wasn't able to use anywhere else, so he wielded that authority and used

23 his personal connections, did he?

24 A. Well, I really don't know. I can't say what connections he had

25 and what his relationship was. But Rade said it was the big boss who was

Page 26466

1 letting me go, that's all. Now, whether he wanted to free anybody else, I

2 don't know, or whether he could have, I don't know. All I know is that I

3 was freed at his initiative.

4 Q. Yes. But this lieutenant colonel who asked for your wife's

5 telephone number to be able to tell her where you were, this second

6 lieutenant, he just said that this man could help you; is that it?

7 A. He told my wife and that friend of mine that it was only Captain

8 Dragan who would be able to pull me out of there. That's what he said.

9 And that's what I heard from my wife and from the man who was with my

10 wife. That's how it was.

11 Q. All right. So he assumed that he knew somebody. He had some

12 connections. There were no organs from Serbia who would be able to

13 intervene in your behalf.

14 A. I don't know anything about that.

15 Q. All right. In your statement given to the investigators, on page

16 8, paragraph 3, you quote the names of 13 individuals and then a further

17 13, and of these you say that you don't believe they're still alive, that

18 they survived. Is that right?

19 A. When I gave the statement to the Helsinki Committee, they asked

20 me whether I remembered all the people who were with me. Now, I do know a

21 lot of people from Brcko by sight, so I gave the names of the people whom

22 I assumed -- actually, most of these people from the list have

23 disappeared. Other detainees said that they were in Luka. Others on the

24 list have remained, those names which I remember. So actually, I would

25 like to have been able to remember all 200 names, but I'm afraid I can't.

Page 26467

1 Q. All right. So how, then, did you assume that these other 13 were

2 not alive? Do you have any reason and grounds for saying that?

3 A. I've just said. The people on that list -- the list was drawn up

4 by the Helsinki Committee, and it was on the basis of what I had heard.

5 Now, what I saw and what I knew about I state in the statement signed by

6 me, here.

7 Q. All right. But are you the author of a letter addressed to the

8 Bosnian newspaper Ljiljan and the public at large?

9 A. No, I'm not. That was a journalist from Brcko. He's a friend of

10 mine. And he is one of the people who wrote the letter, and I added

11 something. But I don't think it was ever published.

12 Q. And was that your personal reaction? It was written in June

13 1994. It was a television programme, Tamo Daleko, broadcast by Radio BH;

14 is that right?

15 A. Well, yes, it was a radio programme, a radio broadcast, and we

16 did listen to it while we were in Denmark, at the centre there. And this

17 journalist -- we grew up together, actually, so he did interviews with me.

18 But I think that he was incarcerated in the Partizan and that he was -- he

19 died. So he was the person who wrote that. Now, there are some things

20 that I told him about, but most of the things in the letter are his, so I

21 don't want to enter into whether they are correct or not.

22 Q. Well, is it true that the role of the JNA and the Brcko garrison

23 was realistically portrayed in the radio broadcasts?

24 A. Well, I can't say, because the man who did them -- I'm not sure.

25 I can't tell you for sure. I'm not 100 per cent certain.

Page 26468

1 Q. All right. This letter of yours, does it represent a criticism

2 of the local Muslim leadership by and large and not a testimony of any

3 crimes perpetrated by JNA members?

4 A. Well, the local Muslim leadership, you say? Well, all of that --

5 let me tell you again that I'm not the person who wrote the letter.

6 Q. Well, it was compiled as the result of talks you had with that

7 journalist; is that right?

8 A. Yes. But I'm not the author. That's not my style to write

9 letters like that.

10 MS. PACK: Could the witness have a copy of this letter if there

11 are going to be many more questions on it. We do have a copy of it in

12 B/C/S.

13 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Let the witness see it.

14 Mr. Milosevic, time is short. Have you got very much more for

15 this witness?

16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] No, no, Mr. May.

17 JUDGE MAY: Very well.

18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I would actually like to finish

19 with this witness now, because obviously there is no additional

20 information that he can provide.

21 JUDGE MAY: Very well. If you would be as quick as you can.

22 There are some additional matters -- administrative matters, I understand,

23 the Prosecution want to raise. We'll try and do all that before quarter

24 to. Yes.

25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right, Mr. May. I should like

Page 26469

1 to thank the witness.

2 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

3 Questioned by Mr. Tapuskovic:

4 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Gasi, you gave your statement to the

5 investigators in 1995. This statement that was referred to a while ago,

6 and this is the statement that was given in Denmark on the 7th of May,

7 1993 at the Danish-Helsinki committee in Copenhagen. That's where you

8 gave this statement; is that right?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. In this statement of yours dated the 4th and 5th of April, 1995,

11 everything you said about the Yugoslav army is contained in paragraph 3,

12 where you mentioned those aircraft. In that statement of yours, there are

13 two more places where you mention, in one case Slobodan Mitric, a former

14 reserve captain of the JNA, and in another place you mention also a former

15 JNA captain. Throughout this statement, you do not mention a single

16 action that was taken by the JNA, absolutely nothing, except for this

17 which has to do with the aircraft that were allegedly doing the bombing.

18 How do you explain that, that in your statement there is no reference to

19 the JNA distributing weapons, that you saw those helicopters delivering

20 the Red Berets, nothing? There is no mention of that in your first

21 statement. Everything that you said in your first statement only had to

22 do with the bombing. Can you explain that to the Judges, please.

23 A. I gave this statement for this court and I signed each and every

24 page. Had you asked me about it today, I would have talked to you about

25 it today. At the Helsinki committee --

Page 26470

1 Q. No, I'm not asking you about the Helsinki committee. I'm asking

2 you about what you said to the investigators. You did not tell the

3 investigators anything about actions of the JNA, except for those two

4 aircraft.

5 A. What do you mean I didn't? Then you got the wrong report.

6 Q. Well, the Office of the Prosecutor is there, and they will

7 probably react if I do something that is impermissible. I heard you full

8 well, that you said that at one point in time the aircraft were bombing an

9 area in Brcko that was populated predominantly by Bosniaks and Croats. Is

10 that right?

11 A. Yes. That's what it says.

12 Q. In that part of town, were there also some Serb inhabitants?

13 A. Well, if you want, 90 per cent of the population of that part of

14 Brcko are Muslims and Croats. But there are some Serbs too.

15 Q. Bombs cannot select their victims.

16 A. I never said that.

17 Q. All right. You've given your explanation. However, when you

18 spoke to the Helsinki committee, you said that you did trust the federal

19 army and you did not object in any way to the behaviour of the JNA at the

20 time.

21 A. How can a man who grew up in Yugoslavia not trust the JNA? But

22 then when they disappoint you, then you lose all that faith and trust,

23 everything.

24 Q. I have to hurry up. Unfortunately, I have read your statement

25 that you gave to the investigators and you talked about individual

Page 26471

1 incidents there and each and every human life is precious and you saw

2 several civilians being killed at certain points in time. However, here

3 before the Helsinki committee you said the following. I would like to put

4 all of this to you. Some of it had already been put to you. You were in

5 the centre of town, and from the apartment where you were, you saw a few

6 of these killings with your very own eyes.

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. But here you said before the Helsinki committee: "In the house,

9 in the centre of town, Gasi saw from the house that 300 to 400 persons

10 were killed. Some were kept in a bunker that had previously been --"

11 JUDGE MAY: He has been asked this, Mr. Tapuskovic. He's given

12 his explanation. So I think we have the point. Thank you.

13 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] No. Your Honour Judge May, that

14 is not what was mentioned. He said from the bunker they had --

15 JUDGE MAY: We really have got time against us. Now, he's been

16 thoroughly cross-examined by Mr. Milosevic. I know you're the friend of

17 the court. What we might do is this: We don't at the moment have the

18 Helsinki statement. Would you suggest -- would you suggest that we have

19 that?

20 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] I do suggest that you should

21 have that, and I'm about to finish.

22 Q. He said that from that bunker he saw groups of 30 to 40 men being

23 taken out and executed and that for days blood was washed off the square.

24 This is something compiled by the Helsinki committee and they probably

25 used that as an important document later.

Page 26472

1 JUDGE MAY: Yes. What is it you want to ask the witness about

2 that?

3 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Why didn't he tell the

4 investigators about all these things? After all, Your Honours, I would

5 like to conclude by saying the following: In respect of --

6 JUDGE MAY: Let him answer. Yes, you can briefly deal with that,

7 Mr. Gasi.

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I answered Mr. Milosevic. You

9 should have listened. The Helsinki committee, when they asked me about my

10 estimate as to how many people were killed in Brcko at the beginning of

11 May and June, I said 300 to 400. That's what I said in that statement

12 that you've mentioned just now. I remember this very well. They asked me

13 and I remember what I said to them. I remember that very well. Now, what

14 they wrote down, I don't know about that. They asked me, "What do you

15 think? Where were they bringing these people from?" Underneath the old

16 town there is an atomic shelter, Mr. Tapuskovic. And as I heard later in

17 Luka, many people were detained there. Now, were they bringing them from

18 there? That's something I don't know.

19 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]

20 Q. I'm going to conclude by asking you did you actually see 30 or 40

21 men being executed in this way, by firing squad?

22 A. I said to Mr. Milosevic that then, when I was watching, between

23 14 to 15 people were killed at the most. That was the maximum.

24 Q. Fine. Thank you very much.

25 JUDGE MAY: Ms. Pack, if you can deal with any re-examination you

Page 26473

1 have briefly, because time is against us.

2 MS. PACK: No re-examination. Just a couple of matters to assist

3 Your Honours. You've been handed a document headed "The Danish Helsinki

4 Committee." I don't know what Mr. Tapuskovic was getting at insofar as

5 the JNA references were concerned. But I could perhaps point out --

6 JUDGE MAY: I'm sorry to interrupt, but he was talking about the

7 Prosecution statement --

8 MS. PACK: Yes.

9 JUDGE MAY: -- apparently in that connection.

10 MS. PACK: Well, in that case, I shan't point out anything from

11 that statement.

12 JUDGE MAY: Very well. We better give this Helsinki document a C

13 number, a court number.

14 THE REGISTRAR: C14.

15 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Gasi, that concludes your evidence. Thank you

16 for coming to the Tribunal to give it. You are now free to go.

17 [The witness withdrew]

18 MR. NICE: Your Honour, just a couple of matters to assist the

19 Chamber and the accused and amici.

20 Because the testimony this week has taken longer than forecast,

21 we will not now be calling one of the 92 bis witnesses next week. Whether

22 we call him later on or not, I'm not sure. But we certainly won't be

23 calling him next week, so that there is no need to prepare Witness B-1524,

24 who in the printed list would follow van Linden. So far as van Linden is

25 concern, as I am at present advised he is available for Monday and not

Page 26474

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Page 26475

1 beyond. I'm pressing for information about limitations on his travel, but

2 it may be that he has commitments elsewhere that he can't get out of for

3 Tuesday. And accordingly, there is a possibility that we will be asking

4 for him to be taken on Monday come what may. I know it's desirable, but I

5 thought it better to mention it now rather than later.

6 Can I mention something in private session for 30 seconds, to

7 help?

8 JUDGE MAY: Yes. We'll go into private session.

9 [Private session]

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 [Open session]

17 MR. NICE: I am doing everything I can, obviously, to prepare for

18 the final list of witnesses that it's possible for us to call in the

19 available time. There's a couple of motions coming your way soon, one

20 dealing with one of the hitherto unnamed witnesses to deal with

21 intercepts. And it will obviously assist us if that motion can be dealt

22 with quickly. And there will be a composite motion that will so far as

23 possible deal with all outstanding witness lists and witness matters

24 between now and the end of the case.

25 We've been reviewing the witness list, and I think I'm going to

Page 26476

1 be in a position very soon to identify a number of witnesses whom it would

2 not be worthwhile preparing, because I don't think we're going to be able

3 to fit them in, and so I'll provide that list, I hope, if not by tomorrow,

4 by Monday, to help the accused, the amicus, Chamber, and the accused's

5 associates.

6 Finally, I have some maps. At the moment enough for the Chamber

7 and for the accused. One for the amicus will follow later. The Chamber

8 will recall that we provided maps at an earlier stage when there -- it

9 happened to be at the time when there was a change in the Rules about the

10 Chamber's powers to rule on sufficiency of crime-base evidence. And the

11 maps showed what had been -- what the Prosecution say had been proved

12 fully or incompletely or not at all in various areas of Croatia and Bosnia

13 by reference to what it was originally intended to prove in the

14 indictment.

15 A similar matter but to a slightly different effect was produced

16 for Bosnia; Bosnia, of course, being very much a work in progress. There

17 are three maps here for Kosovo. They do the same thing, but they're

18 broken down according to three topics: deportation, killing sites, sexual

19 abuse and cultural monuments. And they again show by reference to counts

20 in the indictment what the Prosecution believes it has proved in full

21 or -- has called all the evidence of. Whether it's proved it or not is

22 another matter. It's called all the evidence on particular topics or it's

23 called no evidence or it's called some of the evidence. I hope that will

24 be helpful. I think it was originally the Chamber that thought these

25 might be of value to them.

Page 26477

1 And that's one for the accused. And Mr. Tapuskovic's copy will

2 be available later today.

3 JUDGE MAY: The Judges' copies will be kept in the court and can

4 be handed in later.

5 Is there anything else?

6 MR. NICE: No, I don't think so, Your Honour. I shan't be here

7 tomorrow, but I will be here on Monday.

8 JUDGE MAY: Thank you.

9 We'll adjourn now until 9.00 tomorrow morning.

10 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at

11 1.50 p.m., to be reconvened on Friday, the

12 12th day of September, 2003, at 9.00 a.m.

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