Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 29454

1 Monday, 24 November 2003

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 9.04 a.m.

5 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Nice.

6 MR. NICE: Three 92 bis witnesses today. They may or may not take

7 all of the day. Can I just mention about four matters briefly to keep you

8 in the picture about evidence or evidence difficulties, and may I mention

9 the first three of them in private session because they concern witnesses

10 and contacts with them and so on.

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8 [Open session]

9 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honour, we are in open session.

10 MR. NICE: This relates to intercepts, several of which have been

11 produced so far but only marked for identification and given different

12 exhibit numbers. The Chamber will know that a witness is coming, and I

13 shan't name him, in due course who can deal with these matters. No,

14 actually my mistake. Perhaps we ought to -- I'm so sorry. Perhaps we

15 ought to be in private session for this as well.

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11 [Open session]

12 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honour, we are in open session.

13 JUDGE MAY: Yes, the witness, please.

14 MR. AGHA: The Prosecution would call Ibro Osmanovic. Your

15 Honours, this is an 89(F) witness which permission has already been

16 granted for, so when he comes in, the statements will be presented in that

17 manner.

18 [The witness entered court]

19 JUDGE MAY: Yes. If the witness would take the declaration,

20 please.

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

22 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

23 JUDGE MAY: If you'd like to take a seat.

24 WITNESS: IBRO OSMANOVIC

25 [Witness answered through interpreter]

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Page 29460

1 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Agha.

2 Examined by Mr. Agha:

3 Q. Mr. Osmanovic, you have given three signed statements to the

4 Office of the Prosecutor, the first one on the 10th of October, 1994;

5 second on 11th of October, 1995; and finally the third one on 7th of June,

6 2001. These statements will be placed before you. Can you please confirm

7 that they have been signed and are in fact your statements?

8 A. Yes. Yes, these are my statements.

9 MR. AGHA: May I kindly ask the Court to please exhibit

10 Mr. Osmanovic's statements.

11 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit number is 597.

12 MR. AGHA: Your Honours, this is a new municipality on which

13 evidence I do not believe has been led as yet, so it may be helpful if

14 first of all we went to a map of Bosnia just to show where this particular

15 municipality is, if you would like to do that at this stage.

16 The Exhibit number is actually 343, tab 1. And if that could

17 kindly be placed on the ELMO so the witness could see it.

18 It's also on page 29, D3 of your atlas, if that's of assistance.

19 Q. Now, the Prosecution has already led evidence regarding Zvornik

20 and Bijeljina and other municipalities in Eastern Bosnia, and, Witness,

21 could you kindly point out on the map on the ELMO Vlasenica municipality

22 which you'll be dealing with.

23 A. Vlasenica is here. It's in north-eastern Bosnia.

24 Q. Indicate the municipalities of Han Pijesak and Bijeljina where you

25 were detained in the at Batkovic camp.

Page 29461

1 A. I was not detained in the municipality of Han Pijesak but I came

2 there. It gravitates towards the municipality of Vlasenica, and Bijeljina

3 is by the Sava and by the Drina Rivers.

4 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please be asked to spoke

5 slower and to please speak into the microphone. Thank you.

6 MR. AGHA:

7 Q. Thank you, Witness. That is all with the map for the time being.

8 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Osmanovic, did you hear the interpreter asking you

9 to speak a little more slowly and into the microphone so they can follow

10 what you say.

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's no problem.

12 MR. AGHA: So, Your Honours, if I may, I'll now read a brief

13 synopsis of the witness's evidence.

14 Now, the witness was living and working in the municipality of

15 Vlasenica in Bosnia and Herzegovina in 1990. In 1991, he was selling

16 drinks in Han Pijesak at a celebration when a group of JNA reserve

17 soldiers from Vlasenica requested that the band play Serbian nationalistic

18 songs.

19 These songs have been banned in the former Yugoslavia because they

20 were insulting to other nationalities. Some of these JNA soldiers were

21 wearing Serbian national flag pins and Chetnik pins from World War II.

22 The witness noticed that the Muslim and Serbian communities were beginning

23 to divide.

24 Between August 1991 and April 1992, the witness saw other similar

25 incidents in other parts of Eastern Bosnia such as Sekovici. In

Page 29462

1 Vlasenica, the Serbians and the Muslims also started to divide their

2 communities. The witness saw on the TV Arkan and Plavsic in Bijeljina and

3 the war in Zvornik.

4 Everything was virtually calm in Vlasenica until 23rd, 24th of

5 April when the JNA entered and took over the town. The JNA unit was from

6 Novi Sad in Serbia and had tanks and armoured personnel carriers. The JNA

7 took over the most vital departments in the town, which included the

8 defence, police, justice, and the bank.

9 The witness did not notice any Muslims in the JNA, only Serbs.

10 The JNA demanded that everyone hand in their weapons, and if their order

11 was not complied with, the town would be subject to force.

12 After the JNA had taken over Vlasenica, it was turned into a

13 Serbian municipality. The already existing Crisis Staff, headed by

14 Milomir Stanic, moved from Milici and set up headquarters in the Boksit

15 company which was in the centre of town.

16 The witness believes that Milomir Stanic was in charge of all

17 civil and military departments in Vlasenica with the commanders of the

18 separate civilian authorities, including the police and military

19 authorities, including camp guards at Susica camp, reported up the chain

20 of command to him. The witness saw Stanic's name on many of the orders

21 and movement passes.

22 The witness believes that prior to the conflict, the SDS and the

23 JNA were working together. The leader of the Serb special forces was a

24 lieutenant in the JNA and he reported to Stanic. The SDS Crisis Staff and

25 the Serb special forces shared the same headquarters in the Boksit company

Page 29463

1 prior to the takeover. The Serb soldiers kept their same command

2 structure and simply changed their uniforms.

3 After the JNA takeover, a Serb friend of his was mobilising with

4 the assistance of the JNA all of the Serbian men in Vlasenica. The

5 witness saw the draft notices which his friend was preparing. These were

6 documents on typed A5 sheets with the following heading on the left top:

7 "Armed forces of the SFRY-SSNO Belgrade, 1524, VP, military post office

8 Han Pijesak. Muslims had their movements restricted and they needed to

9 get passes in order to move around Vlasenica. Muslims were also

10 discriminated against in other ways. For instance, they lost their jobs,

11 they were not paid their wages, and had restrictions on their bank

12 withdrawal.

13 When the JNA left on about 17th to 18th of May, they left all

14 their equipment behind for the local Serbs who used this equipment to

15 shell a number of nearby villages. The shells were incendiary and were

16 designed to burn houses.

17 The witness was arrested for the second time without being told

18 why on the 22nd of May, 1992, and he was taken to the town police station

19 where he was held in a room with 20 other Muslims.

20 Whilst at the police station, he was severely beaten during

21 interrogations with police batons, metal pipes, and metal chains.

22 Whilst at the police station, he also witnessed a Serb policeman

23 kill Mr. Ambeskovic who was a Muslim who had organised the referendum for

24 a separate Bosnia and Herzegovina.

25 On the 2nd of June, the witness was moved from the police station

Page 29464

1 to the municipal prison where on arrival all his valuables were taken

2 away. He was placed in a cell with ten other Muslims. The prison was

3 designed to take 50, but there were in fact around 150 men detained there.

4 Whilst the witness was at the prison, he was taken to the Muslim

5 suburb of Drum in Vlasenica to bury bodies. He buried about 22 bodies.

6 He personally knew four of the dead. All of the dead were adult men and

7 had all been shot between the eyes, except one, from what appeared like

8 close range.

9 He was regularly beaten whilst he was at the prison, and numerous

10 detainees were taken out and never seen again. He was later transferred

11 on the 18th of June, 1992, to the Susica camp in Vlasenica. There were

12 about 500 to 550 people kept at this camp. Only six or seven were women.

13 The Susica camp was run by Dragan Nikolic, aka Yankee, who was a

14 member of the Serb military special police. Nikolic told the detainees

15 that he was God and law, and all the guards reported to him.

16 The witness saw two of the detainees taken out of the hangar by

17 Nikolic and who were beaten so badly that shortly after their return, they

18 died from their injuries. He also saw a detainee named Reuf beaten so

19 severely over the four- or five-day period that he begged to be killed.

20 Nikolic, however, told him that a bullet cost three Deutschmarks. Nikolic

21 also, in order to harass and intimidate the prisoners, fired his weapon

22 over their heads, placed a pistol in the mouth of the detainees and

23 continually beat them.

24 On the 27th of June, a man with a JNA uniform with a major's

25 insignia came to the camp and read out a list of people to be exchanged.

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Page 29466

1 The people boarded the buses, and a few days later, the witness also was

2 taken to Batkovic where he arrived on the 30th of June. On arrival, he

3 was immediately beaten by the guards. He also saw at Batkovic a

4 70-year-old man beaten to death. He was there for about 13 months.

5 During this period, the witness noticed 10 to 12 detainees were singled

6 out for particularly brutal treatment and beatings. This group was

7 referred to as "the specials" and were kept apart. They were severely

8 beaten several times every day. Alija, aka Konjanik, was in the specials

9 group. The specials were beaten so much and so often that their faces

10 became unrecognisable. Often they were beaten at mealtimes, so they had

11 nothing to eat.

12 Whilst at Batkovic camp, both he and other detainees were made to

13 do forced labour, and they were also taken to guard abandoned Muslim

14 properties in order to loot the property.

15 Finally, the witness, after 13 months' detention at Batkovic, was

16 released on 21st of July, 1993.

17 Now, this is a short synopsis of the witness's three statements,

18 and if I must -- might now, with the permission of the Chamber, just ask

19 him one or two oral questions.

20 JUDGE MAY: Yes.

21 MR. AGHA:

22 Q. Now, Mr. Osmanovic, you mention in your statement that the JNA

23 took over town on the 23rd, 24th of April, 1992. Now, can you please tell

24 the Chamber what the law and order situation was like in the town before

25 the JNA took over.

Page 29467

1 A. It was the police station that maintained law and order in town.

2 And there were no problems whatsoever, there were no armed conflicts,

3 there was no mistreatment. There was just tension until the army came in.

4 The army came in with combat vehicles and armoured vehicles. As soon as

5 they entered town, they imposed a curfew, that is to say movement was

6 restricted about town, the shops were not open.

7 The next thing that was done was the following: A Golf police car

8 was used for announcing to everyone over a loudspeaker that they should

9 all surrender their weapons and that the army was there to guarantee the

10 safety of all. However, after the hand-over of weapons, only the Serbs

11 moved about, only the Serbs carried weapons, only their shops were open.

12 But the Crisis Staff issued a statement to the Muslims that they should

13 all go back to work otherwise they would lose their property that they had

14 so painstakingly acquired over the years.

15 Q. Mr. Osmanovic, thank you, could I stop you there, please. I want

16 now to come to the period where you were detained in Batkovic camp. Now,

17 you mentioned a group of specials, one of whom was named Alija Konjanik.

18 Can you tell us who he was and where he came from, this detainee?

19 A. Detainee Alija Konjanik was from Bijeljina. He was brought from

20 the Bijeljina barracks to the Batkovic camp, having been accused of trying

21 to throw a grenade into a cafe bar where the Serbs would gather, and they

22 said that he threw this grenade off a horse. That's why they called him

23 "The Horseman," Alija Konjanik. And the International Red Cross -- he

24 was hidden from the International Red Cross and he was beaten by all the

25 guards, and then he was taken to Doboj. After six or seven months spent

Page 29468

1 in Doboj, he was returned to Batkovic and then he went to Tuzla.

2 Q. Thank you. Now, you mentioned the Red Cross coming to Batkovic

3 camp. What happened to the children and elderly people when the Red Cross

4 visited?

5 A. In the month of August 1992, the Red Cross came, the International

6 Red Cross came from Geneva to register these detained persons. This was

7 the Batkovic collection centre, that's the camp I'm referring to. There

8 was a group of very old men, over 65, and there was a group of children,

9 and there was a group of a few of us able-bodied men, and they took us to

10 the embankment on the Sava River by bus. And they took a group of

11 specials by another bus to the farm.

12 In our place, in place of the adults, they put the police. They

13 took us there three days, as if we were going on a picnic, and after that

14 they gave us documents as if we were -- had been registered by the

15 International Red Cross, but for all practical purposes, we were concealed

16 throughout that period.

17 Q. Thank you.

18 MR. AGHA: I just with the permission of the Court would like to

19 show the witness an exhibit or two and see if he can comment on those.

20 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Mr. Agha, if you would remember the clock,

21 please.

22 MR. AGHA: Yes, Your Honours, absolutely.

23 The first exhibit is at tab 4 of Exhibit number 597.

24 Q. And, Witness, if I could ask you very briefly to identify that

25 place which you can see.

Page 29469

1 A. There is a hanger in this photograph. In very back, ammunition

2 boxes can be seen. On the left and right-hand side are windows, but this

3 is the hangar in Susica, in the Susica camp in Vlasenica.

4 Q. Was this where you were detained?

5 A. Yes, But I was at the entrance, that is to say right by the

6 entrance door.

7 Q. Thank you. Now, could the witness please be shown the exhibit

8 which is found at tab 5 of 597 and kindly be asked to identify what he

9 sees in that photograph.

10 A. The camp of Susica can be seen here. These prefabricated

11 buildings are the forestry company from Vlasenica. The next prefabricated

12 building is the warehouse of the Territorial Defence. In the period of

13 1992 it was used for storing military equipment. The next warehouse next

14 to it is the hangar where the detainees were kept. That is also a

15 warehouse of the Territorial Defence.

16 What can be seen here is a room where the guards were. Over here

17 is a truck. That's where the outhouse was, the toilet for the detainees

18 of the Batkovic camp.

19 By this -- by this river, which is also called Susica, was another

20 toilet and then there is a road here and then this is where the gate was,

21 and then this is where a pole was, the form of the letter A.

22 Q. If I may stop you there, Witness. That's fine. Thank you very

23 much.

24 MR. AGHA: And I would apologise to the Chamber for providing

25 black and white photos because -- to save the time, but I am finished now

Page 29470

1 with my evidence in chief. Thank you.

2 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Milosevic.

3 Cross-examined by Mr. Milosevic:

4 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Osmanovic, I had available to me two

5 statements. I did not have the third one, but that doesn't matter. You

6 gave the first one in October 1994, and the second in October 1995; is

7 that right?

8 A. Yes. Yes.

9 Q. Before that, you gave a statement to the Ministry of the Interior

10 of Bosnia-Herzegovina to the service of state security in Tuzla on the

11 27th of July, 1993; is that right?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. And you testified here on the 10th of October, 1995, in the case

14 of Prosecutor against Dragan Nikolic, nicknamed Yankee; correct?

15 A. Yes. Correct.

16 Q. Have you ever been to Novi Sad or Sremska Mitrovica?

17 A. I was in Novi Sad, yes. I have been to Sremska Mitrovica several

18 times.

19 Q. On page 2 of your statement from 1994, in paragraph 5, you say

20 that in Vlasenica things were quiet until the 23rd or the 24th of April,

21 1992.

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. You say that's when the JNA arrived in Vlasenica.

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. You said that on that occasion a motorised unit of the Novi Sad

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Page 29472

1 Corps from Sremska Mitrovica arrived in Vlasenica.

2 A. An armoured motorised unit armed with tanks and armoured personnel

3 carriers.

4 Q. From the details -- from your details that I received, you did not

5 serve in the army in Novi Sad or in Sremska Mitrovica but in Niksic,

6 Montenegro.

7 A. Yes. Military post box 6523.

8 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: Could the witness be

9 instructed to wait until the end of the question and speak more slowly,

10 please.

11 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Mr. Osmanovic, we've had another request from

12 the interpreters. Could you speak more slowly and could you wait -- it's

13 very difficult, I know, because it's -- you want to answer, but can you

14 wait, when the accused has asked a question, until he's finished, and then

15 you respond.

16 Yes, Mr. Milosevic.

17 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

18 Q. You say on page 2, which is in fact the first page of the

19 statement because the actual page 1 is cover page, you say those were

20 soldiers of the motorised unit of the Novi Sad Corps from Sremska

21 Mitrovica, and you said: "I recognised this unit because I served in the

22 JNA from 1984 to 1985."

23 Would you please tell me now if you did your military service in

24 the JNA in Niksic, on what basis did you recognise the unit from the Novi

25 Sad Corps, without going into where this unit had come from.

Page 29473

1 A. I recognised their weaponry. I didn't recognise the unit itself.

2 I recognised the weaponry that only the army had available to it.

3 Everyone knows what kind of weapons the army has, what kind of weapons the

4 police has. This unit had tanks. And I know the unit was from Sremska

5 Mitrovica, belonging to the Novi Sad Corps, because I met a young soldier

6 from Bijelo Polje named Predrag. I talked to him and he said he was

7 serving in the JNA doing his military service in Sremska Mitrovica.

8 Q. Very well. So this is based on what this soldier told you from

9 Bijelo Polje. Bijelo Polje is actually in Montenegro, isn't it?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Since you were talking about the corps, I understood you were

12 saying that this unit was under the command of a lieutenant.

13 A. I just said the unit that was in town was commanded by a

14 lieutenant.

15 Q. That's the only unit you saw, the one in town.

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. It was commanded by a lieutenant?

18 A. You know very well that according to military strategy, every

19 smaller unit is under the command of a larger unit.

20 Q. I know that, but you are talking now about a unit of the Novi Sad

21 Corps that you saw with your own eyes that was commanded by a lieutenant.

22 It could only have been a platoon of soldiers if they were commanded by a

23 lieutenant. It could not have been a corps or any sort of larger unit.

24 A. Sir, the six tanks that I saw with my own eyes could not have been

25 a tank platoon. Six tanks could not be a tank platoon. And that number

Page 29474

1 of soldiers walking about town who were everywhere around town could not

2 have fit into the six tanks that I saw.

3 Q. Very well. Let's clear this up. They were under the command of a

4 lieutenant, and they were a unit of the Novi Sad Corps. According to you,

5 where did this unit come from?

6 A. In my opinion, Vlasenica bordered on Han Pijesak town which has a

7 very strong garrison. It is a place populated by a majority Serb

8 population. I know because I often went to Sekovici and Milici. I know

9 that on the ground of the mine, the army was stationed, and in the factory

10 of cardboard there were also army troops, and they could have arrived from

11 three directions.

12 Q. Yes, but all the three directions are on the territory of Bosnia

13 and Herzegovina.

14 A. Yes, but it's only 50 kilometres to the border. In the meantime,

15 there were Serb forces already in Zvornik, as well as in Bijeljina.

16 Q. You know that neither in Zvornik nor in Bijeljina were there any

17 JNA troops.

18 A. I would not agree with you.

19 Q. So you claim the JNA was in Zvornik and in Bijeljina?

20 A. I assert there were people from Serbia.

21 Q. I will not go into whether there were any people from Serbia. I

22 know the JNA was not in Zvornik or Bijeljina.

23 A. The JNA was in Bijeljina.

24 Q. I noted here in your statement of the 10th of October, 1995, you

25 said that from talking to some soldier named Predrag, you learnt that it

Page 29475

1 was a unit belonging, as you say, to the Novi Sad Corps; right?

2 A. That's precisely what I said.

3 Q. And you concluded that because he told you he was serving in

4 Sremska Mitrovica during his military service?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And you did yours in Niksic, Montenegro?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. He told you he was doing his military service in Sremska

9 Mitrovica, not that he was originally from Sremska Mitrovica.

10 A. Yes, he was doing his military service.

11 Q. He didn't tell you he had actually come from Sremska Mitrovica.

12 A. No.

13 Q. And then by his accent, which became familiar to you when you were

14 doing your military service in Niksic, you decided that he was from

15 Montenegro, and he must have told you, I suppose, he was from Bijelo

16 Polje.

17 A. He told me he was from Bijelo Polje.

18 Q. And now, as far as I can see from your statements, because you are

19 testifying according to your written statement, in your statement of the

20 10th of October, 1994, you said this soldier had told you the unit was

21 under the command of this lieutenant whom you mention, named Musa, who was

22 an ethnic Albanian.

23 A. That's what he told me.

24 Q. So this unit which we are not able at this moment to identify as a

25 platoon or larger than a platoon was under the command of a lieutenant who

Page 29476

1 was an ethnic Albanian. That's what you said in October 1994 in your

2 statement, but you never repeated it in your later statements or

3 testimony.

4 A. No, I did not. Nobody asked me.

5 Q. They didn't ask you. I see. Well, then, Mr. Osmanovic, is it

6 true that either then or later or today you cannot assert with any degree

7 of certainty that this unit was from Sremska Mitrovica, and you cannot say

8 from where it had arrived into your municipality? You say it was

9 Vlasenica.

10 A. Yes, I said it was Vlasenica. I stand behind what I said earlier,

11 and I confirm it today, that it was a unit that I heard from the soldiers

12 had been from Sremska Mitrovica.

13 Q. All I heard you as saying was that this soldier was serving in

14 Sremska Mitrovica. But let us move on to what is relevant.

15 You say that this unit, it's again in your statement of October

16 1994, took over the main urban services in Vlasenica. "I saw them that

17 morning taking over various services."

18 A. They took over the post office, that is communication, banks, the

19 judiciary, the police station, the building of the hotel. And since I

20 lived near the hospital, I saw them took over the hospital as well and put

21 up guards outside these buildings; the municipality building, various

22 companies and enterprises.

23 Q. You say that they took over various services. Will you please

24 explain, what did it look like, this takeover of urban services, municipal

25 services?

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Page 29478

1 A. That's how I see the takeover of the military command, the court

2 house, the municipal building, that is the town hall, where they put up

3 guards as well as in front of the post office, banks, et cetera.

4 Q. All right. I was just trying to picture it and hear your

5 explanation. But tell me about this putting up of guards outside

6 important buildings. It was probably a slip of the tongue by Mr. Agha

7 Khan when he side that they took over the Ministry of Defence in

8 Vlasenica. You probably mean the Secretariat for Defence, the municipal

9 Secretariat for Defence.

10 A. Yes, yes, the municipal secretariat.

11 Q. And you mean the municipal services. But tell me, when you saw

12 them come and put up their guards outside municipal buildings, did the

13 members of the JNA on that occasion mistreat or abuse anyone?

14 A. Members of the JNA walked about town carrying long barrels, that

15 is rifles, and topographic maps, and in armoured vehicles there were

16 people wearing masks or even without masks, and they were addressing

17 announcements to the citizens of Vlasenica, that they should turn over

18 their weapons and that the JNA was there to guarantee everybody's safety.

19 In the event of failure to turn over weapons, the army would use

20 force.

21 Q. All right. That's not what I asked, in fact. What I asked you is

22 this: When they arrived, when this JNA unit arrived whose size we cannot

23 identify, did they mistreat or abuse anyone?

24 A. Apart from walk about town, I did not see them do anything like

25 abuse or mistreat anyone.

Page 29479

1 Q. They just walked about town armed?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Well, soldiers are usually armed.

4 A. Only in wartime.

5 Q. When they arrived, did anyone fire from their weapons? Was there

6 any shooting?

7 A. There was no armed conflict in Vlasenica.

8 Q. So during the stay of the JNA in town, the unit did not mistreat

9 anyone or use their weapons, firearms.

10 A. There was no mistreatment or use of firearms.

11 Q. Were there any other reprisals that you could ascribe to the JNA

12 units?

13 A. There were reprisals that could be ascribed to that unit, such as

14 appeal to go work as work obligation, then restrictions imposed on

15 withdrawals of money in banks regardless of the actual amount of money

16 that you had on your count, then the curfew which I also believe to be one

17 form of mistreatment, restrictions of movement, and the appeal made to

18 people who had left Vlasenica in the direction of Tuzla to come back lest

19 they lose their jobs and property.

20 Q. All right, Mr. Osmanovic. If they were present there, if it had

21 been announced on that occasion that they were guaranteeing everybody's

22 safety, and if they appealed to everyone to come back to their jobs,

23 wasn't that a step towards normalising life in Vlasenica if they were

24 appealing to people to return to their homes and go again to work? Wasn't

25 that a step towards normalising life in Vlasenica? And I want to be

Page 29480

1 perfectly understood; I'm only speaking about the time when the JNA unit

2 was present there. That's what I'm talking about. We'll come back later

3 to the period when they were gone.

4 A. As far as whether this was a normal situation or not, it was not.

5 That's what I'm going to say to you, because ethnic Serbs in the presence

6 of the army carried weapons around town, whereas the Muslim people had

7 handed over their weapons. They surrendered their weapons. So this was a

8 modern-day camp. You're not armed, you're under fear of reprisals all the

9 time, the only obligation you have is to work with your life in jeopardy.

10 Q. What do you mean you have to work -- obligation that you have to

11 go to work? It is only natural for people to go to work, to do the things

12 they did before the war.

13 A. Yes, but whose safety did this army guarantee, to the Muslim

14 people, for them to go back? But at the same time, they armed the Serbs.

15 They allowed them to carry rifles, long barrelled rifles in town.

16 Q. Mr. Osmanovic, isn't it correct that when this platoon or whatever

17 it was, a unit larger than a platoon commanded by this Lieutenant Musa, an

18 Albanian, when they were in Vlasenica and when they called people to go

19 back to work and those who had fled from Vlasenica to come back to

20 Vlasenica, when all of this was happening, wasn't their call addressed to

21 all civilians for them all to return weapons?

22 A. No.

23 Q. So they said only the Muslims should surrender their weapons?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. That was the --

Page 29481

1 A. Order.

2 Q. Wait a second. Did you hear anybody from the JNA issuing this

3 kind of order?

4 A. Mr. Milosevic, in the vehicle that was driving about town and

5 making this announcement, the Yugoslav People's Army guarantees the safety

6 of all. The safety of all. But it calls upon the Muslim people to hand

7 over their weapons.

8 Q. So that was the announcement?

9 A. Announcement.

10 Q. That is what you heard, that the JNA was guaranteeing everybody's

11 safety and that only the Muslims were being called upon to hand over their

12 weapons.

13 A. It is not allegedly; that is the case.

14 Q. So they were not calling upon citizens, they were calling upon

15 Muslims.

16 A. Citizens of Muslim ethnicity.

17 Q. So you've given me an answer. Thank you for that.

18 Now, tell me, while this unit, this JNA unit was there -- or

19 actually, how long was it in Vlasenica?

20 A. Well, roughly until mid-May.

21 Q. Could you please be so kind as to remind me when they came.

22 A. April.

23 Q. The 23rd and 24th of April. So until mid-May, that was less than

24 three weeks, approximately.

25 A. Yes.

Page 29482

1 Q. And when did this unit leave? So it left in mid-May. Where did

2 they go to?

3 A. The tanks remained. Only the people got lost. They left town.

4 Q. Oh, the unit left town.

5 A. The unit left town in terms of manpower, if I can put it that way,

6 but the technical equipment was still there.

7 Q. So the JNA unit was there for three weeks, from the 23rd, 24th of

8 April until mid-May.

9 Now, I would like to ask you to answer me the following, because

10 these are important questions for me. While this unit was in town, this

11 JNA unit, did any -- was any citizen of Vlasenica arrested?

12 A. Yes. Hasan Kulanjcic was arrested on the 23rd and 24th as the

13 army entered town. He worked in the furniture factory and then he was

14 arrested and he spent all this time at the police station at the municipal

15 prison in the camp of Susica and in the camp of Batkovic. On the 21st of

16 July, 1993, he got out.

17 Q. Let's not expand at this point in time. Let us not look at a

18 longer period right now. So apart from this one man, was anybody else

19 arrested over those three weeks while the JNA unit was in Vlasenica?

20 A. Some people were brought into custody. Some people were. And

21 they were asked for weapons, and people from the party, from the SDA party

22 were looked for, those who had organised the referendum. They were

23 looking for things, and people were taken away for a day or for an hour or

24 two. Some people were released after a day or two or three, but Dzevad

25 Topalovic and Hasan Kulanjcic were there for years.

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Page 29484

1 Q. And who arrested them?

2 A. They were arrested by the army when they took the furniture

3 factory.

4 Q. All right. But when the army left in mid-May, they didn't come

5 with the army?

6 A. No. They left them to the Serbs.

7 Q. So they remained in the prison where they had been before?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Was everybody hurt or killed while the JNA unit was in Vlasenica?

10 A. I didn't see anyone being killed.

11 Q. Was anyone hurt in any way, beaten up or whatever?

12 A. Hasan Kulanjcic was beaten, Dzevad Topalovic was beaten.

13 Q. While the JNA unit was there?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Who beat him? Because the JNA unit did not hold the prison, I

16 assume.

17 A. I was there, Mr. Milosevic, to see who beat them.

18 Q. How do you know that they were beaten while the JNA unit was

19 there?

20 A. Because when I came to prison Hasan Kulanjcic did not have a

21 single tooth.

22 Q. When did you come to prison?

23 A. I personally saw Hasan Kulanjcic on the 2nd of June and I saw

24 Dzevad on the 22nd of May.

25 Q. You saw them and you were arrested after the JNA soldiers had

Page 29485

1 left?

2 A. Yes, four or five days after they had left.

3 Q. Since there were no longer JNA soldiers there; right?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. All of this that happened and that you're testifying about

6 happened after the JNA left Vlasenica; is that right?

7 A. Both. Both.

8 Q. What does "both" mean?

9 A. It means that I have a statement that relates to the period before

10 the army left town, and it also relates to the period after the army left

11 town.

12 Q. I understand. But while the army was still in town, or rather,

13 this unit that was commanded by this lieutenant, these two men were

14 arrested. You do not know about anybody having been mistreated while the

15 JNA unit was in town; is that right?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. All right. And tell me, please, while this unit, this JNA unit

18 was in Vlasenica, was anyone's house torched or looted?

19 A. Three houses in Vlasenica were torched. The house of Fadil

20 Tulkovic [phoen], commander of the police; of Huso Dautovic as well; and

21 the house of a painter who's called Pekic, and that house is in the centre

22 of town.

23 Q. Who set these houses on fire?

24 A. I don't know. I didn't.

25 Q. All right. You didn't, but what do you think? Who did?

Page 29486

1 A. Knowing who moved about and the houses were torched in broad

2 daylight and the fire brigade was prohibited from taking any action, then

3 you can paint your own picture.

4 Q. All right. I'm not even going to ask you about this. So no

5 prison was established during the stay of the JNA there because these two

6 men who were arrested while the JNA was there, these two men were taken to

7 the regular police station, the prison.

8 A. No, in Vlasenica there wasn't any kind of prison, a regular prison

9 or an irregular prison before the JNA came, but it was only after they

10 came that one room on one particular floor was turned into a prison and

11 also another room on the second floor.

12 Q. I understand that. But you explained yourself that while the JNA

13 was there, two men were arrested.

14 A. Yes. Others were brought into custody but they were released too.

15 Q. You say an hour or two?

16 A. I also said a day or two.

17 Q. And they were released and the police station, I assume, was not

18 held by the JNA but police.

19 A. The police. Uniformed police, armed like any police would be, but

20 consisting of Serbs strictly.

21 Q. I'm not going into that. I'm talking about the JNA unit, the JNA

22 unit did not hold the prison.

23 A. No, no, no. It didn't.

24 Q. So they had nothing to do with the prison?

25 A. They didn't.

Page 29487

1 Q. All right. These calls to surrender weapons, all of this was done

2 in order to prevent an inter-ethnic conflict of the local population in

3 Vlasenica and a possible attack on the JNA that had already been

4 customary; is that right?

5 A. I would not agree with you. Mr. Milosevic, if one side is

6 supposed to surrender weapons only and if the other side remains armed,

7 then that is not prevention of conflict. I do not view this as conflict

8 prevention; I see this as mere assistance to one side so they can mistreat

9 and humiliate the other side.

10 Q. The army guaranteed the safety to all, and this safety would

11 probably have been guaranteed had the decision not been made for the JNA

12 to leave Bosnia-Herzegovina.

13 A. I don't know, Mr. Milosevic, but the decision of the JNA regarding

14 security, I mean, I myself am an eyewitness to the fact that I lost

15 everything.

16 Q. You didn't lose anything while the JNA was there. You lost all of

17 that after the JNA had left.

18 A. But this is a decision that has to do with safety and security.

19 Q. All right. Since you lost everything, you lost it after the JNA

20 had left, and you were arrested after the JNA had left.

21 A. Yes, but having trusted the JNA.

22 Q. But the JNA had left, and all of this happened to you afterwards.

23 A. I trusted them, and when they left, the town was blocked,

24 Mr. Milosevic.

25 Q. The army was compelled to leave Bosnia-Herzegovina, and they could

Page 29488

1 no longer give you protection, as you know.

2 But all right. Tell me something else now. Were there any

3 inter-ethnic conflicts there between the Serbs and the Muslims while this

4 unit, this JNA unit was present?

5 A. No.

6 Q. No?

7 A. No.

8 Q. Isn't that the best proof of all that the JNA did not allow any

9 conflicts?

10 A. That is no proof, Mr. Milosevic, and it's not proof because, as

11 for the municipality of Vlasenica, the local commune of Cerska did not

12 want to surrender their weapons at all. They remained in their own

13 territory, in their own village, for about a year after that.

14 Q. I see. I don't want to put any leading questions to you or

15 anything. I don't want to suggest what you should answer, but I do bear

16 in mind that when testifying here in the Nikolic case, you said that the

17 JNA stayed there until mid-May and then you repeated that a few minutes

18 ago, and then they withdrew to the area of Serbia, and now we have

19 established that while the JNA unit was there there was no mistreatment of

20 people. People were not killed, firearms were not used, and so on. None

21 of these things happened in that period.

22 You were first arrested towards the end of May, beginning of June;

23 is that right?

24 A. I was arrested on the 22nd of May.

25 Q. The 22nd of May. So this was at least a week after the JNA had

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Page 29490

1 left.

2 A. Four or five days after the JNA had left.

3 JUDGE KWON: Witness, you are asked about your first arrest, not

4 the second one. Was it on 22nd of May?

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. The first time I was taken into

6 custody from in front of the bank, and this was done by Stevan Muminovic.

7 He brought me to the police station. They asked me then why I wanted to

8 withdraw money from the bank, and then they released me and they did not

9 mistreat me then.

10 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

11 Q. There is one thing that I would like you to explain to me, please.

12 In your statement from the month of October 1994 -- I mean, I would like

13 to ask you to try to remember and to give me the exact dates.

14 In the October 1994 statement, as you were explaining when you

15 were first arrested, you say, "After the departure --" This has nothing

16 to do with your arrest but I'm just referring to this particular sentence

17 in your statement. "After the regular JNA soldiers left, around the 5th

18 of May, 1992, the reserve officers stayed on until the end of May," et

19 cetera, et cetera. So regular JNA soldiers left already around the 5th of

20 May; is that right?

21 A. The regular army or, rather, the young soldiers -- I last saw them

22 around the 5th of May. After that, I didn't see them.

23 Q. So regular JNA soldiers, according to this statement of yours,

24 left already on the 5th of May?

25 A. Yes.

Page 29491

1 Q. So then on the 22nd, 23rd, if that unit came and if they left on

2 the 5th, then they were not there even for a total of two weeks.

3 A. But I'm telling you again, regular soldiers.

4 Q. I'm not talking about different reservists now from a particular

5 town and how long they stayed where they stayed, and they stayed on

6 throughout as members of the army of Republika Srpska.

7 A. That is not true, Mr. Milosevic, that they stayed there

8 throughout. They stayed there until they used the local -- they taught

9 the local Serbs how to use tanks and mechanisation.

10 Q. But are talking about reserve officers who stayed until the end of

11 May, nothing more, nothing less.

12 Tell me something else, please. That means that already from the

13 5th of May onwards, 1992, there was not a single regular JNA member in the

14 territory of Vlasenica.

15 A. Conscript.

16 Q. All right, conscript. When were these two men arrested, as you

17 said?

18 A. The 22nd of April.

19 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter did not hear the question.

20 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

21 Q. So if the regular soldiers withdrew, then there were local people

22 who remained.

23 A. Local people and those who came with the regular soldiers, the

24 older men who came with them.

25 Q. Tell me, since you say that some vehicles stayed behind, where

Page 29492

1 were these vehicles after the regular JNA soldiers had withdrawn? Where

2 were they parked exactly, these vehicles?

3 A. By the stadium in Vlasenica, the sports stadium in Vlasenica.

4 There were three tanks that were parked there. Also in the Muslim

5 cemetery. Right in the middle of the cemetery, that is where a tank was

6 parked. One tank and one APC were moving about town.

7 Q. All of this happened after the JNA left?

8 A. While the regular army, while the conscripts who were doing their

9 regular military service were there, there was one tank in the Muslim

10 cemetery, and the rest were by the stadium.

11 Q. All right. If they left these vehicles of theirs, how did they

12 leave Vlasenica?

13 A. I don't know how they left, but the vehicles stayed,

14 Mr. Milosevic.

15 Q. All right. We've clarified that. And then since the JNA

16 withdrew, as you had put it yourself, you were arrested, and also a number

17 of Muslims from the territory of Vlasenica were arrested as well; is that

18 right?

19 And then in your statement given to the investigators, you mention

20 a number of names of Serbs who, according to your assertion, took part in

21 the arrests and interrogations that had to do with the possession of

22 weapons and also attacks against Serbian villages; is that right?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Do you know anything about these attacks on Serb villages? Why

25 did they ask you about that?

Page 29493

1 A. We were asked whether we knew who had left for Cerska, where they

2 had left, because in Vlasenica, there was no armed conflict. The first

3 armed conflict began with the attack of the Serbs against Cerska. Cerska

4 being an ethnically pure Muslim town, they did not allow the JNA to come

5 in.

6 Q. When did that happen?

7 A. In May.

8 Q. When in May?

9 A. Mr. Milosevic, I don't know the date in May. But in any case, it

10 was after the departure of the JNA.

11 A. At any rate, the conscripts from the army left.

12 Q. You mean when the regular forces of the JNA left, that's when the

13 attack against Cerska began?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Tell me now, since you have enumerated some people, naming them,

16 tell me now, among all those names that you have referred to - and I'm not

17 going to repeat them - among all these people, was there a single person

18 from the territory of the Republic of Serbia?

19 A. Yes, from the territory of the Republic of Serbia there was Goran

20 Viskovic, also known as Vjetar.

21 Q. So one and one only. Where from?

22 A. From somewhere around Ruma.

23 Q. What about the others?

24 A. From Tisca, Sekovici, Vlasenica, Han Pijesak, or Milici.

25 Q. So there was one person from Serbia who happened to be there and

Page 29494

1 the rest of the places that you named were places in your own area?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Tell me now, please, because when you testified against Nikolic,

4 you said that he was a member of the JNA.

5 A. He was armed with an automatic weapon of the kind that the JNA

6 had. He wore a uniform of the kind the JNA wore. He drove a vehicle with

7 JNA licence plates. What conclusion would you have come to?

8 Q. But isn't it true that in response to the questions put to you by

9 the side represented here by Mr. Agha Khan, you said that you had known

10 Nikolic from before and that he was a local Serb.

11 A. Yes, I know Mr. Nikolic from around town, from meeting him in the

12 street, in catering establishments.

13 Q. Yes. Well, that's all I wanted to know. He was a local Serb, a

14 local resident.

15 Is it true that he was employed as a civilian employee in the

16 Alpro enterprise before the war?

17 A. That is true.

18 Q. Did his brother work in the municipal administration?

19 A. Yes, in the tax administration.

20 Q. So we are talking about people who were local residents of

21 Vlasenica.

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Is it true that when testifying in the Nikolic case on the 10th of

24 October 1995 you said that he was a member of a Special Police Unit of the

25 Serb municipality of Vlasenica?

Page 29495

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Page 29496

1 A. I did say that.

2 Q. Why, then, did you ever claim that he was a JNA member? Is it

3 just because he wore a JNA uniform? Those uniforms were all around.

4 A. Uniforms perhaps, but not vehicles.

5 Q. I am not challenging one or the other, but I want you to make your

6 choice. Was he a member of the JNA or was he, as you yourself said, a

7 member of the Special Police Unit of the Serbian municipality of

8 Vlasenica? That's what I read in the transcript on page 24, lines 7 to

9 11.

10 A. Dragan Nikolic, also known as Yankee, used to be employed in

11 Alpro, the factory of aluminum pressings before the war. However, when

12 the union of Serb municipalities was formed, Nikolic started going around

13 wearing a camouflage uniform and carrying an automatic weapon. That's

14 when I first saw him armed with an automatic rifle.

15 Q. I'm not interested in the details, I just wanted you to say

16 clearly who he was. Since you say he was a member of a Special Police

17 Unit, he could not have been a member of the JNA.

18 Let us now clear up another thing, Mr. Osmanovic. You claim that

19 you had been in some kind of camps. I wrote down Susica or Batkovic.

20 Those are two different camps, aren't they?

21 A. Two different sites, yes.

22 Q. So we're talking about two different locations. We just saw a

23 photograph where you indicated that it was the Susica camp. When was this

24 photograph taken?

25 A. We actually saw two photographs.

Page 29497

1 Q. Well, one was an aerial photograph that does not show much, but

2 the photograph where you see people, when was this taken?

3 A. I don't know. But aerial photograph speaks to the exact location

4 of the camp.

5 Q. The exact location is in the Vlasenica municipality; isn't it?

6 And you don't know about the other photo, where it -- when it was taken?

7 A. Well, I think it must have been made after the Susica camp was

8 vacated, when everybody left.

9 Q. In that big hall which you called hangar, I saw only a few people

10 and the walls were lined with wooden or plastic ammunition or weapons

11 cases.

12 A. Yes. Those cases held weapons.

13 Q. And when you explained the other photograph, you showed us the

14 warehouse of the Territorial Defence.

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. So what does this photograph show us with a few people and some

17 cases?

18 A. It shows us the interior of the hangar.

19 Q. And the people we saw there, were they detained or were they

20 moving freely around the hangar?

21 A. I don't know who these people were.

22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May, could we find out what kind

23 of photograph that is and when it was taken? I don't understand what kind

24 of exhibit it is if we don't know where it comes from and where it was --

25 when it was taken.

Page 29498

1 JUDGE MAY: The witness has identified it as the interior of the

2 camp. If there are any further details which the Prosecution have, no

3 doubt they can give them after the adjournment.

4 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right. I won't go into it, but

5 this is not the first time to -- we are presented with exhibits where you

6 can see nothing at all. We can see big rooms with or without weapons

7 inside them --

8 JUDGE MAY: It doesn't matter. That is all to do with the weight

9 of the evidence, nothing further.

10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right. All right, Mr. May. I

11 don't see how we can speak about any weight with this kind of evidence.

12 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

13 Q. Tell me, please, since you say you had been in these camps and I

14 know nothing about it at all, could you explain to me one of the things

15 you say in your statement. You say: "During my stay in Batkovic," you

16 were beaten up. That's on page 14 of your statement. You said you were

17 beaten up. "Fikret Smajlovic, Dzemal Zahirovic nicknamed Spajzer, and Esad

18 Bekric, they were willing participants in the beatings because they beat

19 other detainees with or without the guards presented. They seemed to be

20 more violent or worse than the Chetnik guards." I suppose you remember

21 this.

22 A. I remember this, and I will explain how it came about.

23 Q. I want to know one thing: You are testifying here about the

24 beatings, and from your own statement, it follows that the most brutal

25 beatings were inflicted by Muslims themselves.

Page 29499

1 A. I kindly ask you, Mr. Milosevic, not to interrupt me. When we

2 arrived on the 30th of June, 1992, on a transport that crossed Sekovici,

3 Zvornik, and Bijeljina, in Batkovic we were first beaten up by Serb guards

4 who happened to be there who also took all our valuables in the same go,

5 beat us up, and then withdrew, leaving us behind locked doors. A few days

6 later a group of people from Brezovo Polje, Brcko municipality, arrived,

7 including Fikret Smajlovic, nicknamed Piklic. Dzemal Zahirovic, nicknamed

8 Spajzer, came in the same group with me. How he arrived in Vlasenica, I

9 don't know, but these two people before the arrival of Esad Bekric,

10 nicknamed Beret, and also nicknamed Policeman --

11 JUDGE MAY: Let him finish. Let him finish. Yes. Go on.

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] These three men moved about in the

13 presence of guards, beat other people in the presence of guards, and these

14 two, Fikret Smajlovic and Esad Bekric, wore uniforms and walked about

15 around the hangar and the perimeter of the camp.

16 Fikret Smajlovic, nicknamed Piklic, brought his own car. Where

17 did you ever see a prisoner in a camp owning a car?

18 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

19 Q. Not one.

20 A. Well, this was one. So he enjoyed the support of the guards, the

21 current command of the camp, and he was worse than many Chetnik guards.

22 That's what I said, sir, and that's what it says in my statement.

23 Q. Well, that's the only -- that's precisely what I'm saying,

24 Mr. Osmanovic. While you stayed at that camp, you suffered the worst

25 mistreatment from your own countrymen, Muslims, because we can see that

Page 29500

1 this Fikret Smajlovic nicknamed Piklic, Dzemal Zahirovic nicknamed

2 Spajzer, and Esad Bekric - you put a period here, you didn't mention his

3 nickname - you confirm that those were the three worst men, all three of

4 them Muslims.

5 A. Yes, in Batkovic camp.

6 Q. And obviously they were not prisoners because you say one of them

7 wore a uniform, arrived in his own car, so I suppose he was not a

8 detainee. So the Muslims who were there were guards in the Batkovic camp.

9 Isn't that right, Mr. Osmanovic?

10 A. No, they were not guards. Mr. Milosevic, do not put words in my

11 mouth that I did not say.

12 Fikret Smajlovic came and went but he spent nights in the Batkovic

13 camp in a bed specially arranged for him. Esad Bekric, "Policeman," also

14 slept at the Batkovic camp. Spajzer was brought from Vlasenica together

15 with me. He had been in the camp -- interpreter's correction: He had

16 been in Vlasenica before. He came to the camp with me. He did not go out

17 for walks.

18 Fikret Smajlovic was the only one who wore a military uniform.

19 The other one wore a camouflage uniform. I tell you, they were not

20 guards. They were in the camp like me, but they beat other people.

21 Q. All of them are without a doubt Muslims.

22 A. Not all of them, only the three of them.

23 Q. I'm asking you about the three of them. And they inflicted the

24 worst beatings.

25 A. I didn't say the worst.

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Page 29502

1 Q. That's what you wrote here. Is it true that Braco Agic --

2 JUDGE MAY: We have been through this point and we have been on it

3 for about ten minutes. It's more than enough. We can read and we can

4 understand the point. It doesn't get any better by constant repetition,

5 Mr. Milosevic. Yes, let's find something else to ask the witness about.

6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I am not repeating. I am mentioning

7 these other names for the first time. I mentioned three names.

8 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

9 Q. But you say Braco Agic, Alija Ferhatovic, Bernes Hadzic, and Enes

10 Hadzic, Klempic, and Nedzmin Aganovic were there. Is it true that Meho

11 Kulanjcic, also a Muslim, put salt on the wounds of another Muslim? Not

12 one but many Muslims.

13 A. He put salted compressed for swellings to subside.

14 Q. What about the other people I named?

15 A. Those are Muslims from Vlasenica whom Dragan Nikolic, nicknamed

16 Yankee, left outside the hangar when the doors, when the gates of the camp

17 close to monitor and to watch for family members of the detainees who

18 would come to bring food to the detainees and to prevent them. Those

19 people were his informants.

20 Q. So they were prisoners, but at the same time informants who

21 mistreated other prisoners.

22 A. They did not mistreat them.

23 Q. What did they do?

24 A. They just informed on them to the camp commander.

25 Q. To the warden.

Page 29503

1 A. He was not a warden, he was camp commander.

2 Q. Is it true that your entire statement that you gave to the

3 investigators on 11 October 1995, that is one day after your testimony in

4 the Nikolic case, is dedicated to the mistreatment you suffered in the

5 Batkovic camp? In fact, this mistreatment you ascribe to this Piklic,

6 Spajzer, and Esad Bekric, it seems to me.

7 A. You don't mention Veljo, Zoran, Gligor, Major, and the rest.

8 Q. Well, I read out to you an entire paragraph of your statement. I

9 did not omit a single name from the paragraph. I cannot read out loud the

10 whole statement. I just wanted to establish that the worst mistreatment

11 and beatings were inflicted to you precisely by your fellow Muslims while

12 you were in the Batkovic camp.

13 A. That's what you say.

14 Q. I was quoting you. I'm not saying anything.

15 JUDGE MAY: No. There's no point continuing this argument. Now,

16 you'll move on to something else. You've got six minutes left,

17 Mr. Milosevic, and we're going to adjourn now.

18 Twenty minutes, please.

19 Mr. Osmanovic, would you remember not to speak to anybody about

20 your evidence during this adjournment, until it's over.

21 Yes. We will adjourn.

22 --- Recess taken at 10.30 a.m.

23 --- On resuming at 10.55 a.m.

24 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Milosevic.

25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May, I will continue now.

Page 29504

1 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

2 Q. In relation to uniforms, you did your military service, didn't

3 you, and you had this same JNA uniform; right?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Wasn't it a generally known fact throughout Yugoslavia that all

6 reservists had JNA uniforms?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. So these who were on the police force or on the reserve force,

9 they all had these JNA uniforms, they all wore JNA uniforms that were

10 available to them all that time, even before the conflicts broke out; is

11 that right?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Just one more question that has to do with Cerska. You said that

14 in Cerska there was a unit of the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina. Who was

15 there? Who was that unit or, rather, were these the Green Berets?

16 A. I don't know who it was, but I know that in Cerska it was the

17 people who organised themselves. They did not allow themselves to fall

18 under the influence of the so-called army and the Serb forces.

19 As for the Green Berets, Mr. Milosevic, I never saw them.

20 Q. Patriotic League, something like that?

21 A. Never saw them, Mr. Milosevic.

22 Q. How big was this unit in Cerska?

23 A. I don't know, Mr. Milosevic.

24 Q. Do you know who commanded this unit?

25 A. I don't know.

Page 29505

1 Q. You don't know the number of people involved? You don't know who

2 was in command? You know nothing except there was one Muslim unit in

3 Cerska?

4 A. Yes, I don't know the number of people involved, Mr. Milosevic,

5 but I know that there was one unit.

6 Q. And it managed to survive for all of one year, as you said.

7 A. From 1993 to Cerska-Konjevic Polje when the enclave of Srebrenica

8 was formed, the people, including a group that my mother was in, through

9 Cerska and Crni Vrh, they came to Tuzla.

10 Q. Were these units under the command -- under the command of Naser

11 Oric there in the enclave of Srebrenica?

12 A. I don't know who was the commander in Cerska but Srebrenica is 60

13 kilometres away from me.

14 Q. And how far away is Cerska from you?

15 A. 30 kilometres.

16 Q. So how can you know anything about what went on in Cerska and what

17 happened in Cerska?

18 A. My mother was a prisoner at the Susica camp. My sister was a

19 prisoner at the Susica camp. One sister and another sister. One sister

20 never came back from Susica. Whereas my mother and one sister were

21 transferred to Cerska.

22 Q. That is to say territory that was under the control of the Muslim

23 forces.

24 A. Yes, that's right. They were allowed to go to Cerska and then on

25 the 3rd of February they came to Tuzla, in 1993.

Page 29506

1 Q. When were you exchanged?

2 A. I was exchanged on the 21st of July, 1993 in Kovanica.

3 Q. Tell me, how many people were exchanged then, how many Muslims

4 from your side?

5 A. You mean from the camp of Batkovic?

6 Q. I don't know what camps these were but how many were exchanged

7 then?

8 A. From the camp of Batkovic, about 400 men were exchanged.

9 Q. And who were you exchanged for? Did you manage to see?

10 A. I saw people going both ways. On the one side there were men from

11 the Batkovic camp, on the other side were people who had come from Tuzla,

12 and then I went to Tuzla.

13 Q. These who came from the other side, they were Serbs who were

14 exchanged; right?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Were they soldiers or were they civilians?

17 A. I did not see any soldiers.

18 Q. So you were exchanged for civilians?

19 A. I was exchanged for a civilian, yes.

20 Q. Thank you. No further questions.

21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. May.

22 MR. KAY: Just one issue, Your Honour. Looking at page 68 of the

23 first statement of the witness. There's no need for the statement to go

24 before him as it's a simple matter.

25 JUDGE MAY: Page 68?

Page 29507

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Page 29508

1 MR. KAY: Sorry, paragraph 68.

2 Questioned by Mr. Kay:

3 Q. Witness, in your statement you refer to the changing of the

4 uniforms after the Serbs took charge in Vlasenica. Could you explain what

5 that change was.

6 A. The change of uniforms when the Serbs took over power and

7 authority in Vlasenica, this consisted of the following: The local Serbs

8 wore red -- white ribbons on their lapels, and also, before, the JNA had a

9 Red Star on their caps but now there was a typical Serbian flag.

10 Q. If you could describe that flag, what you mean by "a typical

11 Serbian flag."

12 A. The flag that was there before was the three-coloured flag with a

13 red five-pointed star. On the caps there was only a red five-pointed

14 star, and then the caps had these stars taken off and a flag was put

15 there, blue, red, white, which was for a while the flag of Yugoslavia and

16 for a while the flag of Republika Srpska.

17 MR. KAY: Thank you.

18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Just a clarification.

19 Further cross-examined by Mr. Milosevic:

20 Q. [Interpretation] Blue, white, red is the flag of Yugoslavia. I

21 assume you know that.

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And Serbia is blue, red, white.

24 A. Well, this is just the order in which the colours are placed. I'm

25 not going to that, Mr. Milosevic.

Page 29509

1 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Agha, would you deal with this matter quickly.

2 MR. AGHA: I have no re-examination.

3 JUDGE MAY: Very well. Mr. Osmanovic, thank you for coming to the

4 Tribunal to give your evidence. You are now free to go.

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you too.

6 [The witness withdrew]

7 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Nice, let me deal with one administrative matter.

8 There was a question at the last hearing which Mr. Tapuskovic raised,

9 namely to have the minutes of a session of the Presidency admitted,

10 Exhibit 328, tab 16. In fact, that was all admitted previously, and so

11 there's no need to be admitted again. Yes.

12 MR. KAY: I can just deal with that. It had been served only in

13 English on him and not in B/C/S. So that's why he misunderstood.

14 MR. NICE: I have always understood that Mr. Tapuskovic's records

15 of exhibits are amongst the best of the various parties -- not the

16 Chamber, of course, but amongst the rest of it, amongst the best kept.

17 May I raise one other small administrative point. Perhaps I can

18 deal with it in private session.

19 JUDGE MAY: Yes, private session.

20 [Private session]

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

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8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 [Open session]

13 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honour, we're in open session.

14 JUDGE MAY: Yes.

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

16 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

17 JUDGE MAY: Yes. If you'd like to take a seat.

18 WITNESS: WITNESS B-1746

19 [Witness answered through interpreter]

20 MS. PACK: May the witness be handed the statement in English,

21 please.

22 Examined by Ms. Pack:

23 Q. Witness, look at the first page of that statement. Are your

24 personal details identified on that first page?

25 A. Yes, that's correct.

Page 29513

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Page 29514

1 Q. Witness, your signature appears on the first page of that

2 statement. Is it a statement that was taken on the 5th of April, 2000,

3 and again on the 20th of April, 2002?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Subject to some points of difference which I'll deal with, are the

6 contents of that statement true to the best of your knowledge and belief?

7 A. Yes.

8 MS. PACK: Your Honour, I ask that the statement is admitted under

9 Rule 89(F) and be assigned an exhibit number. It was the subject of an

10 application that was granted last week by the Chamber.

11 JUDGE MAY: Yes. The exhibit number, please.

12 MS. PACK: Under seal.

13 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honour, the next Exhibit number is 598 under

14 seal.

15 MS. PACK: I'll read a summary.

16 The witness is Muslim of Bosniak ethnicity and from Doboj

17 municipality. She lived in a village called Miljkovac, about three

18 kilometres from Doboj town, and will describe the attack on the village

19 and on Doboj town and the situation in Miljkovac and in the municipality

20 of Doboj generally before and after the attack. She describes Doboj as a

21 mixed municipality of about 25.000 people with about 49 per cent of the

22 population being Muslim. The witness's village was majority Muslim.

23 The witness describes in her statement the various JNA facilities

24 in Doboj municipality. The main JNA barracks was located in Miljkovac

25 about a kilometre from where the witness lived. It was a huge training

Page 29515

1 facility, and the witness drove between the two parts of it every time she

2 went home. There were also military buildings in the villages of

3 Sevarlije and Potocani and training fields in the villages of Putnikovo

4 Brdo, Plane, and Prisade.

5 The witness says she knew that weapons were being distributed to

6 Serbs in Doboj in late 1991. When the war in Croatia began in 1991, she

7 noticed many Serbs were absent from work, either on a military training

8 exercise or gone to fight the war in Croatia voluntarily.

9 In March or April 1992, the witness saw soldiers digging trenches

10 and placing cannons outside the JNA military facility near her village.

11 In April 1992, she began to hear shootings at night in nearby villages.

12 She began to notice many private cars driving around with no registration

13 plates. Soldiers in these cars were wearing camouflage uniforms and red

14 berets. It was common knowledge that they were from Serbia. They were

15 stationed at the JNA barracks close to the witness's home. The town was

16 full of them. The witness saw them looting and burning houses in the

17 neighbouring village of Plane. The witness says that regular Serb

18 soldiers were afraid of the Red Berets. She heard that when regular

19 soldiers tried to escape fighting on the front line, the Red Berets would

20 tie them in trenches to prevent them escaping.

21 In May 1992, what the witness describes as ethnic cleansing by

22 Serbs calling themselves Special Forces, Red Berets, and White Eagles

23 started in Doboj. They wore camouflage uniforms as opposed to the regular

24 JNA military uniforms worn by reservists. Muslims and Croats started

25 leaving the area because they were scared. The Red Berets, White Eagles,

Page 29516

1 and Special Forces committed many crimes. Men were arrested and taken

2 away, women were raped, and there was a lot of looting in the town.

3 The witness identifies the various detection facilities in town.

4 She describes the detention facility at Cafe Perco and beatings carried

5 out by Red Berets there. She describes detainees being transported to

6 perform forced labour at the front line.

7 Doboj was attacked on the 2nd of May, 1992. The municipal

8 buildings were taken over by the Serbs. The witness describes the

9 shelling which she heard as she hid in her cellar for the next seven days.

10 Approximately four or five days later, Serb Special Forces came

11 house-to-house, searching for weapons. They were wearing camouflage

12 uniforms and had black paint across their faces. They came to the

13 witness's house looking for money and electrical equipment.

14 The witness describes life in Doboj after the attack. A curfew

15 was imposed. Serb soldiers would come regularly to search their houses.

16 Former rubbish collectors were used to gather the bodies around town.

17 The witness describes the arrest of her husband in July 1992 and

18 his subsequent detention at the main JNA barracks and at a camp with

19 hangars near the Bosanska juice factory. The witness and her family

20 finally left Doboj in November 1992.

21 Your Honour, I have a couple of points on clarification that I'd

22 ask the witness. Your Honour, if we may go into private session briefly.

23 [Private session]

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 29517

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18 (redacted)

19 [Open session]

20 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honour, we are back in open session.

21 MS. PACK:

22 Q. Witness, look at paragraph 45, please, of your statement.

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. The Special Forces you identify there as having carried out

25 house-to-house searches, can you tell us, please, if they were wearing any

Page 29518

1 head gear.

2 A. They wore black berets, and their faces were painted with some

3 kind of black paint. It looked as if they were masked.

4 Q. Did those men say anything about what they were doing in Doboj?

5 A. They didn't say anything. They just asked us to give them

6 weapons. They searched houses. They were looking for technical

7 equipment, but they did not tell us why they were there.

8 Q. Turn, please, to paragraph 21 of your statement. You describe an

9 attack on the village of Plane. Are you able to say or describe who it

10 was who attacked that village?

11 A. The village was attacked by the Serb soldiers, as it says here.

12 Q. Tell us, please, those soldiers that attacked the village, were

13 they wearing any head gear that you observed?

14 A. Most of these soldiers wore red berets, and they were driving cars

15 of the Golf make but without any licence plates.

16 MS. PACK: Your Honour, those were the only additional matters I

17 had to raise.

18 JUDGE MAY: Thank you. Yes, Mr. Milosevic.

19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I do not have the number of this

20 witness. I cannot find it, because she is protected, and I cannot address

21 her by name since she is a protected witness. Could you be so kind as to

22 tell me her number.

23 MS. PACK: B-1746.

24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

25 Cross-examined by Mr. Milosevic:

Page 29519

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Page 29520

1 Q. [Interpretation] Witness 1746, since I have two of your

2 statements, one given on the 5th of April, 2000, the other given from the

3 5th to the 20th of April, 2000, I will, when asking questions, refer

4 primarily to your second statement, which gives more detail, and I will

5 indicate when I refer to your first statement to make this examination

6 more simple.

7 So in your statement, in paragraph --

8 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter didn't hear which paragraph.

9 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

10 Q. Page 3 you describe a harmonious life in your community where you

11 used to live very well until 1992.

12 A. That's true.

13 Q. I do not doubt that. But in the middle of paragraph 4 on page 2

14 you say, describing the economy, you say: "Looking back now --" that is

15 paragraph 5 "-- I know now that the most important positions were given to

16 Serbs. The Muslim population was never interested in that sort of thing

17 and just didn't care."

18 I want to ask you, did somebody tell you this later or is it your

19 direct firsthand knowledge?

20 A. That's the way it was, because all the major, important positions

21 Serbs used to get by using their connections, family connections and

22 otherwise, distributing these posts among their cousins, uncles, and

23 extended family starting from schools and enterprises. I'll give you one

24 example.

25 In the place where I used to live, in my company until 1981 or

Page 29521

1 1982, the factory mostly employed Serbs. However, in the 1980s, a new

2 director was appointed, a Muslim, and it was then that the number of

3 Muslim employees started to grow.

4 Q. But you say yourself that it was mainly Serbs who used to work in

5 that factory and that a Muslim was appointed general manager, which is

6 exactly the opposite of what you said a moment ago - namely that the Serbs

7 occupied the most important positions - if a Muslim was appointed director

8 of a factory employing mostly Serbs.

9 A. This happened in the period while a Serb was the general manager.

10 Muslim workers could simply not get jobs there until 1981 or 1982, when

11 the number of Muslim employees increased.

12 Q. All right. You gave me a good enough explanation. Can you give

13 me at least one more example, because the one you just described is very

14 clear. What are the most important positions that you say were held by

15 Serbs?

16 A. Well, starting from the Yugoslav People's Army to managerial

17 positions such as general managers, heads of departments, foremen, whereas

18 the simplest and the worst jobs they were simply not willing to take.

19 Q. Do you really think that in a harmonious mixed community there

20 could exist really such a difference between ethnic groups, that the

21 Muslim population was not interested in important positions and that was

22 some sort of their nationalist -- national characteristic, whereas Serbs

23 were keen to hold important positions and were ambitious, and that was

24 their national characteristic? Isn't that a trait of individual

25 character?

Page 29522

1 A. I'll give you just one example. A person who used to work as a

2 janitor at the reception desk went to an evening training course, and

3 after that received promotion into head of section.

4 Q. Well, that was a very common occurrence in Yugoslavia, for people

5 to receive additional training and be promoted. I don't think it has

6 anything to do with ethnicity. I don't believe that ambition is a

7 national trait.

8 A. I can agree with that. What I'm saying is that many people

9 applied but were not employed on that position, whereas this simple

10 janitor did become head of section.

11 Q. Well, I don't believe this was a factory that involved high

12 technologies, the factory you are talking about. It was not a factory

13 that used state of the start technology.

14 A. It doesn't matter now. It's just an example I gave you. I myself

15 applied for different positions on various occasions and was rejected

16 always while a Serb was the general manager, and then when the Muslim

17 became general manager, Muslims and Croats applied and got jobs because

18 they were judged not by their ethnicity but by their actual

19 qualifications.

20 Q. All right. In paragraph 7 of your statement you said you heard

21 and saw on television that Karadzic was often visiting in the area of

22 Mount Ozren, both before and after the election. And then you link that

23 to the fact that the Serbian army set up their headquarters in a place

24 called Preslica very close to Mount Ozren.

25 If I understand you well, you want to say that Serbs were

Page 29523

1 preparing for the war, and that's why Karadzic went there.

2 A. The Serbs were not preparing. They were already prepared.

3 Q. Tell me, please, don't you know that the majority population near

4 Mount Ozren is Serbian and that is the logical explanation?

5 A. I know that. That's why they chose it as their main base.

6 Q. But don't you think that the majority Serbian population was the

7 reason why Karadzic went there?

8 A. All of this was organised, because war could not have started in

9 just two months. Before April and May -- you know how long it takes for

10 the former Yugoslavia to be transformed into Greater Serbia. Your

11 countrymen, members of the Serbian ethnic group, said this publicly, and I

12 had opportunity to see it for myself.

13 Q. They were saying publicly that Greater Serbia is being created?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. All right. Ma'am, I won't ask you any more questions about this,

16 because you said you were not very political, you didn't even vote.

17 From all that you said in your statement, we can see that you were

18 minding your own business most of the time, which is an entirely different

19 story. That's why I want to know, how come you know that the Serbian

20 headquarters were in Preslica near Mount Ozren? Don't you know that there

21 was no headquarters there?

22 A. No headquarters?

23 Q. Well, all right. How do you know that there was headquarters

24 there?

25 A. The entire Doboj, with its environs, was the base of the Serb

Page 29524

1 army.

2 Q. Do you mean some kind of local command for Doboj and its

3 surroundings? It wasn't headquarters or anything.

4 A. All I can tell you that -- is that Mount Ozren was and remains a

5 Chetnik stronghold. Nowadays, after the war, I think the aspiration to

6 create a Greater Serbia lives on, and most probably if there are enough

7 vicious people, what happened a couple of years ago can still happen again

8 and not only once.

9 Q. All right. You say in paragraph 8, page 2, that in November 1991

10 at election time it appears that everyone voted mainly for the nationalist

11 parties. Don't you know when the elections were actually held?

12 A. This may be a mistake, but I know for a fact that everybody voted

13 for nationalist parties.

14 Q. What you mean is that Muslims voted for the SDA and Serbs for the

15 SDS.

16 A. Precisely.

17 Q. And then you say that after the elections, Serb symbols with four

18 letters S appeared and Serbian children started singing Serb songs.

19 A. Precisely.

20 Q. What does it mean if Serb children sing Serb songs? Is that a

21 sin?

22 A. No, it isn't a sin, but if they do so in public places -- if

23 somebody calls me a great Muslim or calls you a great Serb, then that is

24 not all right.

25 Q. We're talking about very old Serb songs, and you said yourself

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Page 29526

1 that the song "We Are Alija's Army" was sung.

2 A. I mentioned this because I didn't agree with it. It has a

3 nationalist connotation.

4 Q. It does, and it's not a traditional song. It is a reference to

5 the army of Alija Izetbegovic that was established recently, whereas Serb

6 songs had been sung for centuries.

7 A. No, not in the former Yugoslavia. At least not in public places.

8 JUDGE MAY: Given the significance of this witness's evidence, is

9 there really any significance on what songs were sung 12 years ago? You

10 criticise the witness for not knowing the date of an election 12 years ago

11 and then you ask questions which really cannot have any significance in my

12 view. Let us move on and find something more significant.

13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well, Mr. May. I will find

14 something that you will consider relevant.

15 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

16 Q. In paragraph 5 on page 3 - and I'm only referring to the statement

17 of the witness who is testifying on the basis of her written statement -

18 you speak about the disbanding of TO units, and you say you don't know

19 what happened to their weaponry, and then you say, "Later during the

20 conflict I found out that Serbs had taken over the weapons in order to

21 distribute them to Serbs."

22 A. That's the way it was.

23 Q. You don't know -- you didn't know, in fact, you later found out.

24 You found out from whom?

25 A. I found out from a man who worked with me, a colleague of mine,

Page 29527

1 who said loud and clear that they always came by night, around midnight or

2 after midnight, and knocked on doors of Serb houses and distributed

3 weapons to them. If somebody did not want to receive a weapon, they were

4 threatened. The same happened to those men who refused to go into the

5 reserve forces.

6 Q. All right. Do you know that there was an order of the former

7 authorities of Yugoslavia withdrawing weapons that had been kept in TO

8 warehouses all over Yugoslavia, not only in Bosnia-Herzegovina but in

9 Macedonia, Slovenia, and every other republic?

10 A. I am aware of that, and I know the reason for that order. It was

11 designed to prevent those weapons from being taken over by Muslims and

12 Croats, and those weapons were kept in the barracks of the former JNA.

13 However, Serb troops, soldiers of Serb ethnicity, got hold of these

14 weapons later.

15 Q. Do you know that the Serbian TO also had to give up their weapons

16 in the same way?

17 A. I didn't understand your question.

18 Q. The same thing was done in Serbia. The weapons of the Territorial

19 Defence were put in the hands of the JNA.

20 A. I know that. But I also know that all the plans that were

21 developed, including plans for war and attacks on parts of the former

22 Yugoslavia, were made in the Republic of Serbia.

23 Q. How could you possibly know that? Tell me, please.

24 A. Well, that was very well known. When your own parliament fell

25 apart - I don't remember in which year it was - when you quarreled in your

Page 29528

1 parliament and before the war you started making, what do I know, plans

2 for dividing the parties of the former Yugoslavia with one part going

3 to Croatia, another part going to Serbia, another to Bosnia and

4 Herzegovina --

5 Q. I would really like you to enlighten me. Which parliament are you

6 talking about? What happened there? Who was making plans to divide

7 Yugoslavia into various parts that were to be divided among Croatia,

8 Serbia, Bosnia?

9 A. I did not put that in my statement, but I will say it now, because

10 I know. All your conferences in Serbia, Croatia, and Bosnia, when you met

11 with Tudjman and Alija Izetbegovic, you always failed to agree.

12 Q. There were meetings involving all presidents of Yugoslav

13 republics, and the last of them was held in Stojcevac, if you remember.

14 A. Well, I was not that interested, so I don't remember the time and

15 the place, but I know that you participated in the carving up of a country

16 and of one people.

17 Q. Well, you certainly could not have derived that conclusion from

18 those meetings, because we were committed to preserving that Yugoslavia.

19 A. Yes. You were committed to preserving that Yugoslavia which was

20 actually to be Greater Serbia.

21 Q. So that is what you mean.

22 JUDGE MAY: I'm going to stop this debate. This is merely a

23 debate on general issues. It has nothing to do with the witness's

24 evidence. Yes. Move on to more concrete matters, Mr. Milosevic.

25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I agree, Mr. May, that what the

Page 29529

1 witness is replying has nothing to do with her evidence.

2 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 So you say a large number of Muslims and Croats were leaving.

11 JUDGE KWON: Ms. Pack has something. Yes?

12 MS. PACK: I was concerned that the accused is going to be asking

13 questions which may lead to the identification of this witness. If he

14 could be cautious of that.

15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I'll make an effort.

16 JUDGE MAY: Yes, you must be careful about that sort of thing.

17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I am very careful, Mr. May,

18 especially when such lady witnesses are concerned, and I've never made a

19 mistake of this kind until now.

20 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

21 Q. "We did not know or understand why they were leaving." So from

22 January to the spring of 1992, a great many Muslims and Croats were

23 leaving the area. You were naive. You did not know why they were

24 leaving.

25 So this is the time before the war broke out, when negotiations

Page 29530

1 were held in order to overcome the crisis and to avoid a war. What is it

2 that the Muslims and Croats knew at the time and what you did not know

3 because you were so naive?

4 A. They seriously took the war in Croatia. They took the war in

5 Croatia seriously, and they were leaving probably because probably they

6 were better informed than I was. They realised that this war would reach

7 Bosnia as well. And all of this was done systematically, town by town.

8 Q. But you say the Serbs took it in order to divide it up among the

9 other Serbs. That's what somebody told you. Somebody said that to you;

10 right?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. So you're not testifying about what you know, you are testifying

13 about things that other people told you.

14 A. I testify about things that other people told me and about things

15 that we know because we did not have any access to these weapons. And had

16 we had access to weapons, the situation would have probably been

17 different.

18 Q. Oh. So that means that to the best of your knowledge, the army of

19 Bosnia-Herzegovina, as the armed force was called, the one under the

20 command of Alija Izetbegovic, it was not armed?

21 A. No.

22 Q. Oh. It was not armed; right?

23 A. It wasn't.

24 Q. All right. Very well. Then you say in paragraph -- or, rather,

25 on pages 3 and 4, you say that in 1991, both Serbs and Muslims were

Page 29531

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Page 29532

1 receiving call-up papers to join the JNA and that the Serbs did respond,

2 but the Muslims, and I'm quoting you: "Nobody responded to the call-up."

3 That's what you said. "Nobody responded to the call-up."

4 A. First and foremost, the Muslims and Croats remained at their

5 workplaces. Hardly any of them were called up as reservists for this

6 military exercise, and it was mostly Serbs who went as reservists because

7 they had to go, because they were receiving threats. They were threatened

8 by imprisonment if they did not respond.

9 Q. Well, I assume that you know that the law was the same in the

10 former Yugoslavia. And it's not only the Serbs who would have gone to

11 gaol if they did not respond to the call-up, Muslims and Croats would have

12 too. But you say no one, none of the Muslims and Croats responded.

13 A. They didn't because when the war broke out in Croatia, many

14 Muslims did respond but then they were sent to the front line.

15 Q. All right. Do you know that the Party of Democratic Action was

16 calling upon the Muslims not to go into the JNA?

17 A. I don't know about that.

18 Q. So what do you think? Why did no Muslims respond? Why did this

19 happen? How could this happen?

20 A. Because most of the call-up papers were sent to citizens who were

21 ethnic Serbs. And secondly, people already felt unsafe, and a minority

22 was getting call-up papers. I just know of one case. A colleague from

23 work who received call-up papers to join the reserve force did not go. He

24 was supposed to go to Preslica.

25 Q. I see. That is where the Serb headquarters was, as you had put

Page 29533

1 it.

2 A. Precisely.

3 Q. And this was actually a place where the Territorial Defence

4 rallied.

5 A. Whose Territorial Defence?

6 Q. A Muslim got call-up papers and did not go there.

7 A. In that area, the Territorial Defence could not function.

8 Q. Wait a minute. The man who was called up, was he a Muslim?

9 A. Precisely.

10 Q. And then he was supposed to go to this place that you call Serb

11 headquarters. So it was the Territorial Defence that was being called up

12 regardless of whether they were Serbs or Muslims. Isn't that right,

13 Mrs. 1746?

14 A. He got call-up papers but he refused them.

15 Q. I understand, because you say that none of the Muslims responded.

16 A. I said loud and clear that he did not respond and for the most

17 part it was Serbs who responded because they had to go there.

18 Q. I understand. But this Muslim who received call-up papers was

19 called up to go to the place that you call a Serb headquarters and this

20 was actually the focal point of the Territorial Defence of the

21 municipality of Doboj. Is that right or is that not right?

22 A. I'm just going to give you one example. A few people were taken

23 up there to Preslica, and they've been missing since then.

24 Q. You heard about that; is that right?

25 A. That was in the newspapers and on television. A few people lost

Page 29534

1 their lives for no reason whatsoever because somebody thought there was a

2 reason for that.

3 Let me just say one more thing: These were citizens who were

4 ethnic Muslims.

5 Q. All right, Mrs. 1746. On page 4, in paragraph 4 you say in the

6 beginning of April you started noticing soldiers in privately owned Golf

7 cars without licence plates, in camouflage uniforms, and so on and so

8 forth. You say that everybody knew they were from Serbia because you say,

9 "We could not recognise them."

10 The fact that you could not recognise them, could that mean that

11 they were not from your area only or how can this mean that they were

12 precisely from Serbia?

13 A. No. These people were from Serbia. We knew that. And they

14 themselves made it known that they were coming from Serbia.

15 Q. Well, what they were making known could be a completely different

16 matter. But do you know, since you are talking about Golf cars without

17 licence plates, that it was precisely in Sarajevo, in Vogosca, that the

18 Golf car was manufactured? Do you know that?

19 A. Are you trying say that these were soldiers of Muslim ethnicity?

20 Q. Madam 1746, I'm not trying to say anything. I'm just trying to

21 put a question, and I ask you kindly to answer my question. Do you know

22 that it was precisely in Sarajevo -- rather, in Vogosca that there was a

23 manufacturing plant of Golf automobiles?

24 A. As far as I know -- I actually do not remember. I know there was

25 a factory, but I do not remember. I wasn't really interested in that kind

Page 29535

1 of thing.

2 But let me just tell you something else: That these cars, these

3 Golf cars were in front of the garrison in my town.

4 Q. I don't know where they were. I just know that these vehicles of

5 the Golf make were manufactured in Sarajevo, in Pretis. That's the name

6 of the factory. Also, that from the storage space of the Sarajevo

7 factory, many of them were stolen. I assume that you would know that they

8 were not stolen by the JNA but, rather, by local inhabitants, and they

9 drove them in all directions. So those were the cars that --

10 JUDGE MAY: The witness can't possibly know all this. We've heard

11 the evidence about it, and I don't think the witness can take it any

12 further as to where these cars came from. All she can say is that these

13 were the cars. If you want to call further evidence about it, you can.

14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right, Mr. May.

15 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

16 Q. In paragraph 4 on page 4, you say that these soldiers were not

17 regular Serb soldiers. That's the way you put it. And then you say they

18 themselves said that they were members of the special forces of the Red

19 Berets or White Eagles. Is that what you say?

20 A. Yes, that's right.

21 Q. And in paragraph 4 on page 5, you say: "At the time in Doboj

22 there were only volunteers from Serbia, rather, members of the Red Berets,

23 White Eagles, and Serb volunteers from Bosnia and Croatia as well as those

24 from Romania and Russia."

25 A. Yes. There were a lot of mercenaries.

Page 29536

1 Q. So you saw these different volunteer groups. And how did you

2 distinguish between and among them?

3 A. I could recognise the regular army of the former JNA, I could

4 recognise the soldiers with red berets, and I could recognise the soldiers

5 who called themselves the White Eagles. These were paramilitaries.

6 Q. Paramilitary forces.

7 A. Yes, paramilitary forces.

8 Q. No doubt about that, that the White Eagles are paramilitary

9 forces.

10 Now, tell me something else. How did you manage to identify these

11 groups from Romania and Russia and so on? How did you come up with that?

12 This is the first time I hear of any volunteer units from Romania and

13 Russia.

14 A. Didn't you hear about them on television and over the radio, that

15 people from Russia and Romania came to fight in Bosnia for very small

16 amounts of money on the side of the Serbs.

17 Q. I didn't not hear this on radio and television. Perhaps this was

18 on some radio that you listened to. And also, you say didn't I hear this

19 over radio and television. Did you actually hear this from radio and

20 television?

21 A. Precisely.

22 Q. You didn't see them?

23 A. Well, I didn't see them, fortunately.

24 Q. All right. Let's not go into this any further. You talk about

25 things that you actually did not see.

Page 29537

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Page 29538

1 Recently a witness was here, a French journalist, and he brought

2 pictures of the members of the White Eagles, and they had red berets on

3 their heads. So what is the difference in terms of the caps they wear,

4 the members of the White Eagles and those who called themselves the Red

5 Berets, as you put it? Is it the same group or are these two different

6 groups?

7 A. We or, rather, I saw quite clearly, and I would encounter them

8 from February, March, until May 1992. I had the opportunity, actually, of

9 seeing every day the Red Berets and also the regional army, the Serb army,

10 and these members of the White Eagles. Finally, some of them wore red

11 berets, others were black berets, and yet others wore ordinary caps but

12 without the red star, the red five-pointed star. That's a well-known

13 fact. Some of them had red or yellow ribbons on their shoulders and

14 that's how they could be identified.

15 Q. All right. In your statement dated the 5th of April, you say on

16 page 2 in paragraph 4, I'm quoting what you say: "There were some men

17 with insignia of Arkan's White Eagles. They had camouflage uniforms but

18 on their shoulders they wore different insignia so they could be

19 recognised.

20 A. Sir, these White Eagles were where I lived so I had the

21 opportunity of seeing them every day.

22 Q. All right. Does that mean that White Eagles and other volunteers

23 were dressed the same way or in a similar way as others and then it was

24 necessary for them to have this special kind of insignia on their

25 shoulders?

Page 29539

1 A. Mr. Milosevic, is it that important what people wore?

2 Q. It's not that important, absolutely. But I would like to identify

3 what you are testifying about and what you actually saw, because you say

4 here, verbatim, "There were some men with the symbol of Arkan's White

5 Eagles. It is generally known here that Arkan's soldiers were the Serb

6 volunteer guards.

7 A. Yes, and they had --

8 Q. But the Eagles had nothing to do with Arkan. How did you come up

9 with this, that Arkan had the White Eagles?

10 A. Well, you had so many paramilitary organisations that no one can

11 know all their names.

12 Q. Well, paramilitary organisations do not belong to the states, as

13 you know, so it's not that we had them. They were paramilitary

14 organisations. So isn't it quite clear that the White Eagles and Arkan's

15 volunteer guard were not one and the same thing? You claim here that it

16 is the same thing.

17 A. For us -- I beg your pardon. For us, it was the army of the

18 Republic of Serbia.

19 Q. All right, Mrs. 1746. Since you're talking about Arkan's White

20 Eagles, I had to put a question in that respect. I did not ask you about

21 any army of the Republic of Serbia because there was no such thing. There

22 was the army of Yugoslavia, as you know full well, I presume.

23 MS. PACK: Your Honour, might the accused identify the paragraph

24 to which he's referring as the reference to Arkan's White Eagles. I can't

25 find it in the statement.

Page 29540

1 JUDGE MAY: Well, he doesn't have the numbers. Perhaps you could

2 look for it over the adjournment. Yes. Let's keep going.

3 JUDGE KWON: Is there any other statement of this witness?

4 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I can tell you.

5 JUDGE MAY: Just a moment. Yes, tell us.

6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I have already pointed out at the

7 very outset that I would say specifically when I refer to the first

8 statement. So I said specifically the statement dated the 5th of April,

9 2000, and I quote from page 4. "There were men with insignia of Arkan's

10 White Eagles. They wore camouflage uniforms, but on their shoulders, in

11 order to be readily recognisable, they wore different insignia."

12 So this is the second paragraph on page 4 of the statement dated

13 the 5th of April, 2000.

14 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

15 Q. Let's move further on. In paragraph 5 on page 4 you say that the

16 regular Serb soldiers were afraid of those you call the Red Berets,

17 because the latter beat them, as you said. And you repeated it also

18 during the very brief examination-in-chief you had here. They forced them

19 to fight at the front line, and you heard that they even tied them up in

20 trenches so that they would not flee from combat.

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. How is this possible? Soldiers who are supposed to fight at the

23 front line are tied up by someone in trenches so that they would not flee

24 from combat? How can they fight if they are tied up? How can a soldier

25 who is tied up fight? How did you get these ideas?

Page 29541

1 A. Well, we're not going to be so very literal. It's not that they

2 were quite literally tied up. I mean, their hands were not tied up.

3 Q. Oh, their feet were tied up?

4 A. Well, they were tied one to another in the trenches. And that's

5 how they found Serb soldiers. And they were reservists for the most part,

6 ordinary men who were in the trenches. All paramilitary troops or,

7 rather, the army of the Republic of Serbia and the regional army of the

8 JNA were for the most part stationed in town. They looted most of the

9 time and searched houses and committed crimes, whereas normal, ordinary

10 soldiers were in the trenches.

11 Q. What does this mean in your vocabulary, this regular army of the

12 JNA? I cannot understand this. I cannot identify what you mean by this

13 "regular JNA" or "regional JNA," depending on what you say.

14 A. The former Yugoslav army of the former Yugoslavia, because you

15 know that at the beginning of the war there was no more Yugoslav army. It

16 was divided. The Serb army, the army of Serbia or -- and then there was

17 the army of the Federation and the army of Croatia.

18 Q. All right. These regular soldiers, when you use that word

19 "regular soldiers" as the ones that you refer to, were they members of

20 the regular army of Republika Srpska?

21 A. Yes, they were. Of Republika Srpska, yes.

22 Q. So we've clarified that point, at least. In paragraph 7 and 8 on

23 page 5 of your statement, you say: "Reservists freely moved about in

24 military uniforms of the JNA and with full gear. There were many new

25 faces in town. It was known that Serbs wore camouflage uniforms whereas

Page 29542

1 our local reservists wore regular military uniforms of the JNA."

2 These local reservists of yours, the ones that you refer to, and

3 regular Serb soldiers that you refer to, are they one and the same thing

4 or not?

5 A. I can just say that in the beginning just when the war began, they

6 had normal old olive-grey uniforms. But after a month or two, for the

7 most part everybody had camouflage uniforms.

8 Q. Oh. So these same people, members of the army of Republika Srpska

9 that you talked about a few minutes ago. First they had olive-grey

10 uniforms and then camouflage uniforms.

11 A. Yes, but we know what the army of Republika Srpska was and what

12 the army of Republic of Serbia was.

13 Q. The Republic of Serbia does not have an army. I don't know how

14 you identified the army of the Republic of Serbia. Do you mean the JNA?

15 A. We know that with the beginning of the war, the Yugoslav People's

16 Army ceased to exist. The only army that existed was the army of the

17 Republic of Serbia.

18 A. I will not go into this and make you suffer these questions. Just

19 tell me this thing: In the last paragraph on page 4, speaking of the

20 Doboj Red Cross, which in May 1992 was located in the secondary school of

21 Doboj, you say the following: "In May 1992, the Red Cross was located in

22 the secondary school of Doboj. It was the Serb Red Cross. And throughout

23 the war, nobody worked there. In the beginning, Serbs used it as a

24 refugee camp where food was distributed to displaced persons. Later, it

25 was used as a detention centre. I know that prisoners were kept and

Page 29543

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Page 29544

1 tortured there because I used to go there to visit them, bring them

2 coffee, and clothing. The brother of my aunt was detained there" - I'll

3 skip his name - "her son, one and the other." I will not name anyone for

4 your safety. "And they were later exchanged."

5 Now, regarding this quotation, will you please tell me who are

6 these people who had been expelled to whom food was distributed in that

7 centre? Where did they come from and who expelled them?

8 A. Well, first of all, it was a school.

9 Q. I quoted you, Madam 1746. I quoted your statement very precisely.

10 You did not clarify that it was a secondary school. I refer you to your

11 own statement, and I'm asking you to tell me: Who are those expelled

12 people you mentioned to whom food was distributed in this refugee camp?

13 Where did they come from and who expelled them?

14 A. There were both Muslims and Serbs among the expelled people.

15 Q. So there were both Muslims and Serbs who had been expelled and

16 food was distributed to them. Where did they come from and who expelled

17 them?

18 A. Well, Muslims were expelled by Serbs, as we all well know. And as

19 for Serbs, they had left their homes even before the attack.

20 Q. And who expelled the Serbs?

21 A. I don't know who expelled the Serbs from Bosanski Brod, because

22 Bosanski Brod, as far as I know, belongs to Republika Srpska, and it must

23 have been attacked by either Croats or Muslims, because we know that

24 Bosanski Brod is located on the border between Bosnia and Croatia.

25 Q. So when Bosanski Brod was attacked, Serbs fled and that's where

Page 29545

1 they were accommodated; right?

2 A. Precisely.

3 Q. Because you say it was a Serb Red Cross. Food was distributed,

4 and the refugees were Muslims and Serbs. Doesn't that mean that food and

5 assistance were given to everyone?

6 A. I just wish to point out that it wasn't only the Red Cross

7 headquarters. One part of that facility was a detention centre where

8 Muslims and Croats were tortured.

9 Q. As you explain now, it seems to have been some place of torture.

10 A. Precisely.

11 Q. And you say that those alleged detainees were exchanged.

12 A. Yes, they were. In 1994, I think, they were exchanged, because I

13 saw a couple of the former detainees after the war.

14 Q. So Muslims held Serb prisoners, Serbs held Muslim prisoners, and

15 they later exchanged them; correct?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Now tell me -- I'm not going to identify anyone. I'm not even

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Tell me now, if you said just before that, and I quoted you, that

Page 29546

1 nobody worked in the Red Cross throughout the war and it served as a

2 detention camp, why did you ever go there?

3 A. We had to go there for purposes of identification and

4 registration, because by that time we were refugees ourselves. We were

5 forced to leave our homes and to report to the Red Cross base where we

6 received some sort of registration slips that had our names on it.

7 Briefly, we were registered there. After that, we left. We did not stay

8 there for a long time.

9 Q. Well, that means that the Red Cross did work, did operate after

10 all. You said on page 4 that it didn't. From what follows -- it follows

11 from what you just said that it did work. You received some documents

12 there and that's what you just explained, isn't it? Isn't it, Mrs. 1746?

13 A. Just give me a moment. On page 4 I can't see this passage.

14 Q. Page 4, and I'm going to speak about the Doboj Red Cross, you said

15 that in May 1992, the Red Cross was located in the Doboj secondary school.

16 It was a Serb Red Cross, and nobody worked there.

17 So first you say nobody worked there, and then you say that you

18 went there to get registered.

19 MS. PACK: Perhaps I can assist --

20 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

21 Q. What actually happened?

22 MS. PACK: Perhaps I can assist with the paragraph number. It

23 should be paragraph 26 on the witness's copy.

24 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

25 Q. My apologies to the witness, because I am not quoting the numbers

Page 29547

1 of the paragraphs because I received the numbered version only a moment

2 ago. The one I was using until now did not have any numbers.

3 A. Let's me answer this question now. "In May 1992, the Red Cross

4 was located in the Doboj secondary school. It was a Serb Red Cross, and

5 during the war nobody worked there."

6 What I meant was that it no longer operated as a school. There

7 was no more teaching staff or any other employees and that the Red Cross

8 was stationed there with their own staff doing their own work.

9 Q. Thank you for this. Now, speaking about the detention of your

10 husband, paragraph 10, page 4 of your statement. I want to ask this

11 question before we adjourn for a break. It is not a short paragraph, and

12 please pay attention, because I want to make a comparison.

13 You say: "The prisoners were mistreated, and they hardly got any

14 food all day. They had to sleep on pallets. On one occasion, I managed

15 to bring some food to my husband and give it through a guard through the

16 fence for it to be given to my husband. He never received it."

17 That's what it says in that paragraph, whereas in paragraphs 8 and

18 9 on page 7 of the statement given in 2000, you say: "They were

19 mistreated, and they hardly gave them any food all day. They had to sleep

20 on pallets. I managed to get" -- And you say this very clearly: "I

21 managed to get some food to him every day through the fencing around the

22 camp."

23 These are two different assertions, Mrs. 1746. Which of the two

24 is true? Did you manage to get some food through to him on one occasion

25 or every day?

Page 29548

1 JUDGE MAY: All right. We have the question. What we don't have

2 is the numbers of the paragraphs. The witness can perhaps think about

3 that -- just a moment -- can think about that over the adjournment.

4 Ms. Pack, you will please find these paragraph numbers for us,

5 locate them.

6 MS. PACK: Yes, Your Honour.

7 JUDGE MAY: We'll adjourn now.

8 Witness B-1746, when we come back, we will give you the right

9 numbers of the paragraphs and you can have a look at them before you

10 answer, because you should at least know what the accused is referring to.

11 Could you remember, please, during the adjournment not to speak to

12 anybody about your evidence until it's over.

13 Yes. We will adjourn. Twenty minutes.

14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May, if I may assist the

15 witness, please. I said, actually, that my first quotation comes from

16 page 4 -- in fact paragraph 4, page 9. And my second quotation is from

17 paragraphs 8 and 9 on page 7 of the statement dated the 5th of April. My

18 first quotation is from the other statement, and the second quotation is

19 from paragraphs 8 and 9, page 7 of the statement dated the 5th of April.

20 So she knows the exact location of these paragraphs.

21 JUDGE MAY: We only have one statement, as it is. We will have it

22 clarified after the event, and then, Mr. Milosevic you've got ten minutes

23 more for cross-examination.

24 Yes, I'll sign the form.

25 --- Recess taken at 12.20 p.m.

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1 --- On resuming at 12.43 p.m.

2 JUDGE MAY: Ms. Pack, have you the answer for the conundrum?

3 MS. PACK: Yes, just to clarify in relation to the statements,

4 there is an earlier document headed "Witness Information" that wasn't

5 signed by the witness. It was just a record of the first interview which

6 then was followed by a second interview two years later, at which point

7 the witness signed the statement that you see before you, Your Honours.

8 So far as the paragraphs which -- to which the accused has been

9 referring the witness, I can just explain. The first paragraph in the

10 second statement, it's at paragraph 71; and in the first draft I've

11 identified the relevant paragraph for the witness on the version in --

12 which is in front of her. Should Your Honours wish to see the first

13 draft, I have got copies to pass up to you.

14 JUDGE MAY: Witness B-1746, if you've got those paragraphs now,

15 the accused's question was about an apparent discrepancy about whether

16 your husband received the food or not. Perhaps you can deal with that.

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The first statement that I gave in

18 the year 2000 is one that I did not sign because the computer broke down,

19 so I could not read the statement out. So then ever since there have been

20 some small mistakes that we corrected while it was being translated.

21 I can say that it was only on one occasion that I managed to get

22 some food to my husband. As for the other times, never. I never managed

23 to do that again.

24 I can also tell you, and perhaps this has to do with that, I went

25 to the camp every day in order to visit him, if possible, to visit and see

Page 29551

1 my husband.

2 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Milosevic.

3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May, since this witness

4 undoubtedly requires a bit more patience during her examination, I don't

5 think I can finish within ten minutes, so please bear with me.

6 As for the fact that the statement was not signed, on page 8 it

7 says "Witness acknowledgement" and then there is a signature and the date

8 the 5th of April. There is no difference whatsoever compared to the other

9 statement where it says the date the 20th of April and then there is a

10 signature. Neither one actually bear a signature. It just says

11 "witness's signature."

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. Milosevic, I am here to give you

13 only the real kind of evidence, true evidence. It is not in my interest

14 to lie to anyone and to say things that are wrong.

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

24 Q. So what is written here on page 7 of that first statement of

25 yours: "I managed to bring him food every day and to give it to him

Page 29552

1 through the fence," that is simply not correct?

2 A. That is not correct. I managed only once, but I went there every

3 day.

4 Q. On page 4 of your statement, in paragraph 6 you said, and now I'm

5 quoting you: "In May 1992, the Serbs started cleansing Doboj ethnically

6 and that the Muslims and Croats, out of fear, started leaving the area."

7 That is a quotation.

8 And on page 6 - so we're talking about one and the same statement

9 here, the one that you signed - on page 6, paragraph 9, speaking of the

10 Serb takeover of Doboj on the 2nd of May 1992, you say the following:

11 "After seven days an announcement was made over the radio addressed to the

12 workers telling them they should all go back to their workplaces. I was

13 not called up, but my work -- my husband was, and all of those who had

14 taken anything from -- anything from their companies were supposed to take

15 them -- these things back. When my husband went back to work, he had a

16 new boss, a Serb."

17 Mrs. 1746, this is where I quoted you. Does that mean that the

18 Muslims and Croats were not expelled from Doboj? On the contrary; they

19 were called upon to go back to work, just like the Serbs, but some of them

20 left out of fear.

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 29553

1 Q. I'm asking you about what you said here. "After seven days, there

2 was an announcement made on the radio asking workers to go back to their

3 workplaces."

4 A. Yes. Radio Doboj said that workers, I mean individual workers,

5 who had material resources from their companies, they were supposed to go

6 back and to hand them in. My husband was under this work obligation for

7 about seven days, I think, and then he was released. He went home. There

8 was no more work for him.

9 Q. So what it says here is not correct, that after seven days an

10 announcement was made asking workers to go back to their jobs.

11 A. Well, don't misunderstand what I'm saying. There are some workers

12 who worked for the public cleaning company, and they had to sweep the

13 streets and do whatever they were supposed to do. And other -- Serb

14 workers took up arms and went to fight. So Croatian and Muslims workers

15 had to work at the public utility in charge of cleaning and sweeping.

16 Q. I'm not going to go into all of that any more, although that's not

17 the way you put it. You said in your statement that people were called

18 upon to go back to their jobs.

19 Tell me, on page 4, in paragraphs 6 and 7, when speaking about

20 what you call ethnic cleansing which started in May 1992, you say: "The

21 Red Berets, the White Eagles, the Special Forces committed a great many

22 crimes. We did not dare go out during the night, and for the most part we

23 stayed at home. Men were arrested and taken out. There was a lot of

24 looting in town. Women were raped."

25 And then you proceed to say -- these are all quotations from your

Page 29554

1 statement. "One night around 1.00 a.m., we were returning from a visit we

2 paid to a friend, and by the barracks in my street we came across a large

3 concentration of military vehicles. Every day the activities in the

4 military barracks went up."

5 Now, isn't this quite contradictory? In one paragraph you say

6 that you did not dare go out during the night, and already in the next

7 paragraph you say that you were returning home at 1.00 a.m. from a visit

8 that you paid to a friend and you passed by the barracks, no more no

9 less, with a large concentration of military vehicles and stepped up

10 activity. So were you locked up in your homes during the night or did you

11 stroll by the barracks at 1.00 in the morning? Not both can be true.

12 A. The answer to your question is the following, Mr. Milosevic:

13 Well, it all was not in the same order. This is what happened in April

14 1992, while the war had not broken out yet, and we could still go and

15 visit people, and people could come and visit us, and we could move about

16 freely. However, in that period there was a large concentration of

17 military vehicles and of military forces.

18 Q. That was not my question. My question was that in one paragraph

19 you say "We did not dare go out," and in the second paragraph you say that

20 you were strolling around at 1.00 in the morning by the barracks.

21 A. Yes, but in one paragraph there is a description from the war

22 days, if I can put it that way, and this other paragraph involves April

23 1992, and at that time, war had not broken out yet. However, when the war

24 did start, we did not dare leave our homes, we did not dare go out into

25 our yards after 11:00, and we did not have a chance to go to town or

Page 29555

1 anywhere else.

2 Q. All right. Well, take a look at this now. In the one but last

3 paragraph on page 6, you say: "A curfew was imposed straight away. From

4 8.00 until 11:00 there was restriction of movement. Those who were found

5 after a particular time in their own yards were arrested and taken to the

6 barracks at the end of the street." And afterwards you say: "The curfew

7 was gradually extended. It was extended to 1500 hours, at the beginning

8 of June we were allowed to stay outside until 1900 hours."

9 I don't understand any of this. Could you please explain what

10 kind of a curfew is this in the morning and afternoon hours, and when did

11 this curfew start or, rather, end? 8.00, 11:00, 1500, 1900 hours. You

12 refer to all these different times, so --

13 A. During the first month we were not allowed to move about. The

14 curfew was from 8.00 to 11:00.

15 Q. In the morning?

16 A. Yes, in the morning. We only had three hours to go to town or to

17 go back home. However, in the months of June and July, as you said, they

18 extended the time we had available for moving around. So in July and

19 August, during the summer, we could stay outside even until 7:00 in the

20 evening. I mean not stay outside but go to a shop, buy things if we

21 managed to find anything, and then we'd have to go back home.

22 Q. All right, Mrs. 1746. On page 7, paragraph 3, you say: "I never

23 saw a killing myself, but I heard that when the town was taken, some men

24 were killed in their houses and some women were raped."

25 So as for all the killings that are referred to in your statement,

Page 29556

1 you only know about them from the stories of other people.

2 A. I am fortunate not to have seen a killing.

3 Q. You are fortunate because of that, but I'm saying that you never

4 saw a killing yourself.

5 A. Yes.

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 JUDGE MAY: I think -- just a moment. We will now go into private

20 session, and, Mr. Milosevic -- Mr. Milosevic, we will consider whether you

21 should have any time longer because your time is now up.

22 [Trial Chamber confers]

23 [Private session]

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 29557

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12 Pages 29557 to 29559 redacted private session.

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

Page 29560

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 [Open session]

6 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honour, we are in public session.

7 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 29561

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 JUDGE MAY: Let us not argue about it.

5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I will not even refer to the town,

6 Mr. May.

7 JUDGE MAY: Or anywhere else that she went.

8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Or anywhere else that she went, only

9 the fact that she went to Serbia, which I suppose does not identify her.

10 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

11 Q. So is it true that you stayed with the family of your husband in

12 Serbia, in a town?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Is it true that the family of your husband were also Muslims?

15 A. The woman was Muslim, and the man was Serb.

16 Q. But they were family of your husband.

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And those relatives of yours lived peacefully in Serbia, and they

19 were able and they could afford to receive refugees from Bosnia and

20 Herzegovina, weren't they?

21 A. They could not really afford to. We had to take care of

22 ourselves.

23 Q. So nobody in Serbia had any doubts that you were Muslims in that

24 place where you stayed.

25 A. Correct.

Page 29562

1 Q. Did anybody harm you in any way because of that fact?

2 A. No, not at the time.

3 Q. Do you know that there were 70.000 Muslim refugees in Serbia at

4 the time?

5 A. I know that there were refugees. I don't know exactly how many

6 right now. But I also know that there was a number of Muslims who were

7 detained in Serbia, specifically from Srebrenica.

8 Q. Nobody was detained there.

9 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Milosevic, this is your last question now.

10 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

11 Q. Very well. Mrs. 1746, did the authorities of the Republic of

12 Serbia help you get the documents that enabled you to travel on to a third

13 country? Can we conclude that your family, yourself, and other Muslims

14 from Bosnia and Herzegovina who were escaping the war in

15 Bosnia-Herzegovina found refuge and shelter precisely in Serbia and

16 received there the necessary assistance enabling you to travel on? Is

17 that disputable?

18 A. I didn't say that we were mistreated or that we did not receive

19 help. I only want to say that I was there myself, Mr. Milosevic, and I

20 was disappointed in your media, and at one point I regretted that I was a

21 Muslim because, watching your news bulletins on the TV and listening to

22 the radio, I heard about Muslims allegedly killing Serbs in Bosnia and

23 alleged mass graves of Serb civilians being discovered in Bosnia. I had

24 been on both sides, and I'm really sorry that I ended up thinking that it

25 was to be regretted that I belonged to either of these nations, either of

Page 29563

1 these ethnic groups. That's what you flooded the population of Serbia

2 with.

3 Q. You think that information was untrue?

4 A. That information was absolutely untrue, Mr. Milosevic.

5 MR. KAY: Just one brief matter in private session, please.

6 JUDGE MAY: Private session, please.

7 [Private session]

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 29564

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 [Open session]

15 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honour, we are in open session.

16 MS. PACK:

17 Q. Witness, this is a draft of the first statement that was taken

18 from you in April 2000. It's in English. Does your signature appear on

19 any of the pages of that statement?

20 A. No.

21 Q. That statement wasn't read back to you on the first occasion in

22 your own language?

23 A. No, it was not read out to me in detail. It was not read out to

24 me, not this statement. I'm sorry. Let me add that we were supposed to

25 make another appointment to finalise this and have me sign the statement

Page 29565

1 because the computer had stopped working.

2 Q. And it was on the second occasion you were seen by members of the

3 Office of the Prosecutor in 2002, April 2002, that you went back through

4 your evidence, made some changes, and then signed the English version of

5 the statement that was read back to you?

6 A. Yes. Yes, precisely. And we corrected at the same time the

7 errors that were found in the first version. We corrected them together.

8 MS. PACK: Your Honours, just a brief point of confusion. Perhaps

9 it was my confusion. The second statement doesn't identify the White

10 Eagles as Arkan's White Eagles, that's again something that appears in the

11 first draft.

12 And very briefly one additional matter. Could the witness please

13 be referred, please, to the second statement in B/C/S.

14 Q. Look, please, at paragraph 21 of that statement. Witness, you

15 identify Red Berets as being present at the JNA barracks in early April,

16 from early April 1992. The other paramilitaries that you have described,

17 where did you see their base, or did you see where they were based?

18 A. The Red Berets were at the garrison within the compound of the

19 garrison, whereas White Eagles were scattered around the houses we had

20 vacated. They were around before I left the village and went to town.

21 MS. PACK: No further questions, Your Honour.

22 JUDGE MAY: Witness B-1746, that concludes your evidence. Thank

23 you for coming to the International Tribunal to give it. You are free to

24 go. If you would just wait for the blinds to be drawn.

25 [The witness withdrew]

Page 29566

1 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Mr. Agha, is it for you to call the next

2 witness?

3 MR. AGHA: Yes, Your Honour. The Prosecution calls Mr. Esad

4 Velic.

5 JUDGE MAY: Yes. If someone would draw these blinds, please.

6 MR. AGHA: Your Honour, this witness has facial protection.

7 JUDGE MAY: Very well, yes.

8 MR. NICE: While the witness is coming in, may I answer the

9 accused's concern about audio versions of intercepts. He was provided

10 them on the 23rd of October on a CD. If he has trouble with following the

11 method of opening them, one of my staff will help him at the end of the

12 session.

13 MR. AGHA: Your Honours, while we're waiting for the next witness,

14 could I please address a point of the exhibit photograph of the camp which

15 the accused drew our attention to. This was Exhibit 597, tab 4, and it

16 was a picture of the inside of a hangar. I have been able to find out

17 that that picture was actually taken by a delegation from the CSCE, which

18 was the forerunner to the OSCE, in the end of August, September 1992. So

19 that's for the information of the Chamber.

20 JUDGE MAY: Thank you.

21 JUDGE KWON: I don't have the picture with me now, but some of the

22 detainees wore uniforms at the time? The right hand part of the picture.

23 If you check it later.

24 MR. AGHA: It would seem so, yes.

25 JUDGE KWON: And some of the detainees are dressed up, and some

Page 29567

1 wore neckties?

2 MR. AGHA: There are not many with neckties.

3 [The witness entered court]

4 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May.

5 JUDGE MAY: Just a moment. Let the witness take the declaration.

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

7 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

8 JUDGE MAY: If you would like to take a seat.

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

10 WITNESS: ESAD VELIC

11 [Witness answered through interpreter]

12 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Milosevic, if it is about the neckties in the last

13 photograph, we'll deal with it at the end. Let us hear this witness now.

14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well.

15 MR. AGHA: Your Honours, this is a 92 bis witness.

16 Examined by Mr. Agha:

17 Q. Witness, you gave a statement before the Office of the Prosecution

18 on the 31st of October, 1999, which was subsequently certified by members

19 of the Registry on the 31st of May, 2001. You have that statement in

20 front of you. Can you confirm that that is in fact your signature and

21 your statement, please.

22 A. Yes, that is my signature and that is my statement.

23 Q. Thank you.

24 MR. AGHA: May I ask that statement be given an exhibit number,

25 the bis package.

Page 29568

1 THE REGISTRAR: The next exhibit number is 599.

2 MR. AGHA: Thank you. Now, Your Honours, this witness is from

3 again a different municipality on which no evidence has yet been led, so

4 if I may very briefly ask you to refer to Exhibit 343, 1, where the

5 witness can kindly please point out on that exhibit on the ELMO the

6 municipality of Bosanska Krupa, where he's from.

7 Q. Witness, could you please point on the ELMO there whereabouts

8 Bosanska Krupa is on the map of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

9 A. [Indicates]

10 Q. Okay. Thank you very much, Witness.

11 MR. AGHA: Your Honours, because we are rather short of time, I

12 propose to briefly skim through the summarisation of this witness's

13 testimony.

14 Now, the witness, in 1990, was living in Bosanska Krupa, and prior

15 to the multi-party elections he became a member of the SDA. Bosanska

16 Krupa is a 75 per cent Muslim majority municipality, and the SDA won a

17 majority of seats. He then became the first elected president of Bosanska

18 Krupa.

19 The main difficulty with the SDS party concerned the JNA's

20 involvement in Croatia. The SDA didn't want the JNA to be involved,

21 whereas the SDS did. This led to a confrontation and a demand from the

22 SDS to see the personnel detail of the JNA's conscripts in the area. The

23 SDA didn't allow this, and this led to the JNA attempting to seize the

24 documents.

25 The SDS then prepared a study of the administrative division of

Page 29569

1 the municipality, and the study was based on a separate ethnic state for

2 the Serbs. The main justification for the SDS wanting a separate

3 municipality was that they could no longer live with the persons who had

4 committed crimes against them during World War II, and this separation

5 would be the first step in creating a Serbian state in the Balkans.

6 Now, the witness also deals with the arrest of Martic and him

7 being released after the arrest warrants were revoked from Belgrade and

8 that Martic met Mladic straight after his release.

9 Concerning the attack on Bosanska Krupa, this occurred just after

10 a meeting on 21st of April, 1992, when a meeting was held in the municipal

11 building attended by EU monitors, himself, who were going to discuss the

12 various controversies.

13 A JNA general, Ninkovic, came in the meeting, and about 15 minutes

14 after he left the town was shelled as well as shot at by Serbian forces.

15 Very briefly, the witness was in the municipal building, and he

16 did see about 25 to 30 casualties. Bosanska Krupa is divided by the River

17 Una, and on account of the Serb shelling, the Muslims were forced to the

18 left bank.

19 Later on, the witness noticed that nearly all the houses had been

20 destroyed, including the mosque and the Catholic church on the side which

21 the Serbs were occupying.

22 So that's in essence the testimony of this witness and I have no

23 further questions or exhibits to run through him. That ends of the

24 examination-in-chief, Your Honours.

25 JUDGE MAY: Thank you. Yes, Mr. Milosevic.

Page 29570

1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Have I understood this correctly,

2 Mr. May? This witness only has facial protection. His name is not

3 protected? I can address him by his name, can't I?

4 JUDGE MAY: That is so.

5 Cross-examined by Mr. Milosevic:

6 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Velic, I see from your statement that before

7 the conflict broke out in Bosnia-Herzegovina, you held many important

8 offices in the territory of the municipality of Bosanska Krupa. You were

9 a judge of the municipal court, the public prosecutor, a magistrate, head

10 of the 4th of July Company. According to my information, for a while you

11 were a public self-management attorney; is that right?

12 A. No, it's not right. I was never a magistrate, and I was never the

13 public defender. I was the district public attorney for three years,

14 though.

15 Q. As soon as the SDA was established, you became a member of the

16 Executive Board of the SDA for Bosanska Krupa; is that right?

17 A. Yes, that's right.

18 Q. And in September 1991, at the internal elections of the SDA, you

19 were elected president of the SDA in Bosanska Krupa; isn't that right?

20 A. Yes, that's right.

21 Q. And now, Mr. Velic, when you talk about party activities in the

22 territory of your municipality in the period that preceded the conflict,

23 first of all, on page 2, in paragraph 9 you talk about the founding

24 Assembly of the SDS, and then on page 3, in paragraph 1, you say that the

25 SDA had its founding Assembly on the 31st of July, 1990. Is that right?

Page 29571

1 A. Yes, that's right.

2 Q. While following your statement, one could come to the wrong

3 conclusion that it was the SDS that was founded first and then the SDA,

4 which certainly was not the case; is that right?

5 A. I never said that.

6 Q. When was the SDA established in relation to the SDS? How much

7 earlier?

8 A. Perhaps a month or two earlier, but I don't know exactly.

9 Q. All right. In view of the fact that you were invited as a guest

10 to the founding Assembly of the Serb Democratic Party --

11 A. Well, I was not invited myself, but representatives of the SDA

12 were invited, and we agreed that I would attend inter alia.

13 Q. All right. They did not invite you by name and surname, but they

14 asked -- they invited the representatives of the leadership of the SDA to

15 attend the founding Assembly of the SDS.

16 A. That's right.

17 Q. Then you were appointed to go on behalf of the SDA to attend the

18 founding Assembly of the SDS.

19 A. Others attended too, but I was the one who took it upon myself to

20 address this founding Assembly with a short statement.

21 Q. All right. And on which date was this founding Assembly of the

22 SDS held?

23 A. I don't know.

24 Q. All right. And what was the content of this short statement that

25 you made when addressing the founding Assembly of the Serb Democratic

Page 29572

1 Party?

2 A. As far as I can remember, it was a courtesy statement, extending

3 greetings, and I expressed my hope that the parties of the two peoples

4 would find a common language in terms of resolving Bosnian affairs.

5 Q. All right. You were born in a village which was in the biggest

6 local commune in Bosanska Krupa.

7 A. No, Maglic is not in the area of Buzim. It never belonged to the

8 municipality of Buzim but the municipality of Bosanska Krupa.

9 Q. Was Buzim a municipality then or was it a local commune within

10 Bosanska Krupa?

11 A. Well, it was a local commune within the municipality of Bosanska

12 Krupa.

13 Q. All right.

14 A. But organisationally, they were separate or, rather, the SDA

15 organisations were different. There were two SDA organisations in the

16 territory of the municipality of Bosanska Krupa, one for Buzim and one for

17 Bosanska Krupa.

18 Q. Oh, I see, although this was a single municipality. And since

19 1995 these were separate municipalities?

20 A. Yes, that's what I found out later, towards the end of 1995, that

21 Buzim acquired the status of a proper municipality.

22 Q. Is it correct that Buzim was almost completely populated by

23 Muslims, namely since the Second World War when several thousand Serbs in

24 Buzim were killed and expelled from the area?

25 A. In Buzim or, rather, in the community of the municipality of

Page 29573

1 Buzim, that included seven local communes as far as I can remember, for

2 the most part the population was Muslim in 1999. I cannot corroborate

3 your statement that during the Second World War several thousand Serbs

4 were expelled from that area.

5 Q. I did not say expelled, I said killed and expelled.

6 A. I cannot corroborate that in particular because I was born in 1952

7 and this has not been recorded in history anywhere.

8 Q. All right. There are documents about this, but there's no need

9 for me to discuss the matter with you any further.

10 And do you know that the initiative to establish a separate Buzim

11 municipality came into being not in 1995 but the initiative was launched

12 much earlier?

13 A. Well, that's right, because Buzim had the status of municipality

14 all the way up to 1963 within Bosnia-Herzegovina. After this

15 reorganisation, it lost that status, and the local population expressed

16 their wish to have that status returned to them, and this was finally done

17 towards the end of 1995.

18 Q. So until the 1960s, it was a municipality and then this new

19 organisation took place in the 1960s, and then this larger municipality of

20 Bosanska Krupa was set up and then in 1995 again it became a separate

21 municipality.

22 A. Well, roughly it was that way although the organisation was not

23 after 1963 and then in 1995. The municipality of Bosanska Krupa in 1963

24 got the status of district or something to that effect. Buzim had the

25 status of municipality in that organisation.

Page 29574

1 Q. All right. You say on page 4, in paragraph 5 that the Serb

2 Democratic Party of Bosanska Krupa, in 1991, elaborated a study on the

3 administrative division of the municipality, and you say that they

4 justified this by the necessity to establish a separate Serb municipality.

5 A. Not the need to establish a separate Serb municipality, but

6 ultimately to create a united Serb state in the Balkans, as was written in

7 the last sentence quite specifically of that study.

8 Q. Oh, not municipality but state, as a matter of fact.

9 A. Yes, that's right. They said that this was the first step towards

10 the establishment of a unified Serb state in the Balkans.

11 Q. All right. Already in the next paragraph you called this

12 initiative of the local Serbs ridiculous because, as you say, this was

13 possible to decide only at the level of the municipality and the republic,

14 by the republican Assembly.

15 A. Yes, as far as borders of municipalities wee concerned, according

16 to the regulations that were then in force, it was only the Assembly of

17 the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina that could reach decisions to that

18 effect.

19 I don't know if it's a ridiculous term. I wouldn't call it

20 ridiculous. I would call this a very serious signal which indicated what

21 would happen in the future.

22 Q. All right. Tell me, are you aware that Serbs from the area of

23 Bosanska Krupa did not intend for this idea, for this proposal of theirs

24 which, as you say under the legislation was in the competence of the

25 republican and the municipal assemblies, did not intend for this idea to

Page 29575

1 be implemented by passing these organs? They just floated it to you as

2 the SDA in order to reach an agreement, and I suppose it was up to the

3 authorities that you enumerated to vote on it.

4 A. The problem was that they insisted on inter-party negotiations

5 concerning that proposal, and we wanted it to be submitted to the

6 Municipal Assembly of Bosanska Krupa, and they were against it for reasons

7 I don't understand.

8 Q. Yes. But in the municipal assembly, you and the Serbian

9 Democratic Party received -- in fact shared all the deputies between you.

10 A. Well, practically that's true, with the exception of five deputies

11 who represented the then-SDP.

12 Q. So your party had the majority in the Municipal Assembly?

13 A. Yes, with 64 per cent of MPs.

14 Q. So they suggested it to you, the Muslim party, in order to reach

15 an agreement on a joint proposal that would then be submitted to the

16 authorities who were called upon to decide.

17 A. They did not suggest that we submit it to the authorities. They

18 suggested instead that it be a subject of bilateral negotiations between

19 the SDA and the SDS, and we did not want that.

20 Q. That's what I wanted to ask you. Is it true that it was you,

21 yourself, who gave full support to this proposal of the SDS, judging it as

22 completely legitimate and grounded in the constitution of Bosnia and

23 Herzegovina?

24 A. I never made that statement, but in my eyes, every proposal for a

25 territorial division in Bosnia and Herzegovina was legitimate and legal

Page 29576

1 with the proviso that constitutional and legal procedure was observed.

2 And in this particular case, they were not ready to abide by that

3 procedure. They showed that much.

4 Q. You said yourself that it was a legitimate proposal and good

5 enough to be discussed according to legal procedure.

6 A. Yes. If it was submitted to legal authorities.

7 Q. But you do not dispute that it was a legal, legitimate proposal?

8 A. I cannot remember my exact words. It was too long ago. But I

9 believe that I could have said something to that effect, because such an

10 initiative could have legally originated from the SDS. But I want to make

11 this reservation: Not to divide the municipality according to the

12 criteria they suggested but according to various economic and other

13 criteria.

14 Q. But is it true that when justifying this proposal to members of

15 your own party, and explaining it, you said it was based on Article 265 of

16 the then constitution of Bosnia and Herzegovina and that this initiative

17 was in keeping with the constitution and that from the viewpoint of

18 legality, it cannot be challenged?

19 A. That initiative was never challenged because nobody was given a

20 chance to challenge it or consider it, because they refused to start a

21 serious discussion before the competent authorities, either in the

22 municipality or in the republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina.

23 Q. I understand that. But is it true that if we continue with this

24 example of the SDS, you made a similar proposal with relation to Buzim,

25 then the largest municipality within Bosanska Krupa and nowadays a

Page 29577

1 separate municipality?

2 A. As you said yourself, that initiative existed even before and had

3 been submitted to the republican Assembly of Bosnia and Herzegovina.

4 However, the republican Assembly referred this work, in fact suspended the

5 work on this proposal relating to Buzim and seven other municipalities

6 until the conflict started.

7 Q. It doesn't really matter whether it was finalised or not. Is it

8 true that representatives of the SDA at one of these inter-party

9 negotiations demanded from the representatives of the SDS to present a

10 feasibility study for the division of the municipality and received that

11 study?

12 A. The proposal for making Buzim a separate municipality was based on

13 specific justified criteria, whereas the Serb proposal was based only on

14 the separation of Muslim and Serb communities.

15 Q. Well, since this is completely new to me, I understand that this

16 feasibility study was titled "Feasibility study on the social and economic

17 justification of the division of Bosanska Krupa municipality."

18 A. In our everyday work we just referred to it as "study."

19 Q. Did you receive that study for your consideration from the

20 representatives of the SDS and got a copy that you could discuss?

21 A. We did get a copy, and within the SDS we considered it and found

22 that it was geared at ethnic division of the municipality and was

23 unacceptable to us as such. We were not given a chance to follow the

24 legal administrative procedure in the municipal and republican Assemblies

25 to explain our views.

Page 29578

1 Q. All right, Mr. Velic. Is it true that you gave up considering the

2 idea further due to pressure from the top echelons of the SDS -- SDA

3 because the Muslim community that lived on the left bank of the Una, 9.000

4 of them, were a minority compared to Serbs?

5 A. That is not true. If you check the statistics for the

6 municipality of Bosanska Krupa - and I'm very familiar with it - for the

7 1990s and later on, you will see that on the left bank of the Una River

8 there were more Muslims than Serbs. So it could not have affected Buzim

9 as a separate municipality.

10 Q. I'm talking about the left bank of the Una.

11 A. The Muslim population was the majority in both cases.

12 Q. It is up to me to ask and up to you to answer.

13 A. I have answered and I'm absolutely sure of what I'm saying. In

14 both versions, the Muslim population was the majority on both banks of the

15 Una River. On of the left bank in particular.

16 Q. Since you supported the idea at the time, tell me, why are you

17 against it now?

18 A. I never said that I supported it, and I did not support it. I

19 said, on the contrary, that the proposal of the SDS was based only on

20 ethnic considerations.

21 Q. Tell me, according to what criteria and with what motivation did

22 Buzim become a separate municipality in 1995?

23 A. For reasons that existed even during the war. Buzim was a

24 separate entity removed about 30 kilometres from Bosanska Krupa. It was

25 justified for it to become a separate municipality.

Page 29579

1 Q. Did it maybe happen because in 1995, after the signing of the

2 Dayton Accords, there were no Serbs any more in Buzim because they had

3 left the area en masse because most of their territory was given over to

4 the federation?

5 A. As for how and why Serbs left the territory of Bosanska Krupa, I

6 only learned about it from the media. I wasn't there. I was not a

7 witness of these events. However, I do not believe that the reason for

8 the secession, quote unquote, of the Buzim municipality is the one you

9 quoted.

10 Q. Tell me, on page 3, paragraph 12, you speak about the ethnic

11 structure of the senior staff of the SDA. You say that Mehmed Mahic was

12 on top; chief of police was your own brother, Semsudin Velic; chief of

13 Territorial Defence was first Hasan Sisic then Hasim Djulic. Is that

14 true?

15 A. Yes, this is correct information, and this ethnic structure was

16 established after the elections in 1990.

17 Q. Is it true that the only municipal official who was a Serb at the

18 time was Gojko Klickovic, who was vice-president of the Executive Board of

19 the Municipal Assembly?

20 A. That's not correct because even the then-president of the SDS,

21 Miroslav Vjestica, was the secretary of the Secretary for Agriculture;

22 Mirko Orelj was secretary of the Secretariat for Land Management; and the

23 SDS nominated another person for the post of commander of the police in

24 Bosanska Krupa. Those changes were implemented to the full in Bosanska

25 Krupa, and they were based on inter-party agreements that were fully

Page 29580

1 accepted by the SDS on the basis of election results and the ethnic

2 structure of the municipality itself.

3 JUDGE MAY: I'm going to interrupt you now. We've gone beyond our

4 time. We're going to adjourn. You will have 40 minutes cross-examination

5 left on Wednesday.

6 Mr. Velic, could I ask you to be back, please, on Wednesday

7 morning at 9.00 to continue with your evidence. And I must warn you

8 formally, as we must warn all witnesses, not to speak to anybody about

9 your evidence until it's over, and that does include the members of the

10 Prosecution team.

11 Mr. Nice, yes.

12 MR. NICE: I don't know if you received a note that there were

13 just a couple of matters I'd like to raise procedurally before the Court

14 adjourns today.

15 JUDGE MAY: Very well. We've got the witness here. Can you deal

16 with them briefly while he's here?

17 MR. NICE: They don't concern him at all.

18 JUDGE MAY: Yes. It means taking the blinds down.

19 MR. NICE: Yes, I understand. They relate to a recent decision

20 that the Chamber has made on our omnibus motion for additional witnesses,

21 and the Chamber will recall making its order on the 30th of September

22 where we were to provide the list, following which we provided the

23 schedule, which is in a sense the list, and the application to have added

24 to the other list of witnesses various named witnesses.

25 May this be in private session, please. Yes.

Page 29581

1 JUDGE MAY: Shall we allow the witness to go, because he doesn't

2 want to hang about.

3 Mr. Velic, if you'd like to leave. This is something which

4 doesn't concern your evidence at all. If you would just wait a moment

5 while we take the blinds down.

6 [The witness withdrew]

7 [Private session]

8 (redacted)

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Page 29582

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12 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.58 p.m.,

13 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 26th day of

14 November, 2003, at 9.00 a.m.

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