Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 29971

1 Wednesday, 3 December 2003

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 [The witness entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 9.05 a.m.

6 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Mr. Tihic, thank you for coming back.

7 Mr. Milosevic, you want to ask the witness some more questions; is

8 that right?

9 WITNESS: SULEJMAN TIHIC [Resumed]

10 [Witness answered through interpreter]

11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I certainly do. This is a very

12 extensive statement, 65 pages.

13 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters do not really hear

14 Mr. Milosevic. He's speaking without a microphone.

15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, I will try to finish within

16 this first session.

17 THE INTERPRETER: There is no microphone for the accused.

18 JUDGE MAY: Yes. You're asking for an hour and a half, are you?

19 [Trial Chamber confers]

20 JUDGE MAY: Yes. There is some trouble with your microphone.

21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Apparently it wasn't turned towards

22 me. I hope it's all right now.

23 JUDGE MAY: In any event, what we'll give you -- we've got to look

24 at the whole time, the time of the case and the time you've had with the

25 witness already. Twenty minutes is what you've got. Yes.

Page 29972

1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, I cannot manage to examine

2 within 20 minutes, Mr. May.

3 Further cross-examined by Mr. Milosevic:

4 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Tihic, in view of the fact that this

5 statement is much longer and substantial than your statement itself, do

6 you agree that this memoir, as you called it, is much more relevant to the

7 establishment of facts than your statement?

8 A. I do not agree. This is -- these are my thoughts and my doubts

9 and dilemmas I had at the time.

10 Q. All right. Yesterday during your testimony you said you were a

11 member of the SDA since it was founded.

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. And from your notes, we see that it is not true. You hesitated,

14 apparently, a great deal before joining the SDA. On page 3, in paragraph

15 2, you say: "During the summer and autumn of 1990, it was clear already

16 that national parties would win the elections. I contacted the SDA a lot

17 and I assisted as much as I could in town because many people were

18 illiterate, both politically and literally." Can we say, judging by this

19 paragraph, that you were in doubt, you hesitated?

20 A. After the SDA was established, perhaps two months later, I

21 joined. But before that, I worked a little for them.

22 Q. On page 2, paragraph 4, you say that the party was made up mainly

23 of people who were not really prominent or renowned in your community,

24 small businessmen and others and outsiders who moved in recently. What do

25 you mean by that?

Page 29973

1 A. I mean people who were not originally from Bosanski Samac, who

2 moved in from other places in Bosnia.

3 Q. In Bosnia?

4 A. Yes, mostly from Bosnia. I believe there was one from Sandzak as

5 well.

6 Q. On page 4, you strengthen this statement and you say: "These

7 outsiders, newcomers, did not know the spirit of Samac and the Muslims and

8 were hard-liners to a greater extent than the locals of Samac."

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. You were not a member of the SDA even during the founding session

11 that was held in September 1990 in Bosanski Samac, attended by Alija

12 Izetbegovic.

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And your hesitation to join the SDA was strengthened by the

15 differences between Alija Izetbegovic on one hand and Mr. Zulfikarpasic

16 and Muhamed Filipovic on the other hand.

17 A. Those were my dilemmas that other people shared perhaps as well,

18 when there was a rift.

19 Q. And you were at the time a friend of Zulfikarpasic and Filipovic?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. When you joined the SDA, you spoke of some defence activities of

22 the SDA. How do you explain the fact which you mention on page 7,

23 paragraph 1? You say that in that -- to that end, expert seminars were

24 organised, and you sent people for sabotage training courses.

25 A. I don't know exactly what went on there, but I know that two or

Page 29974

1 three members, I believe, went to either Doboj or Tesanj, and somebody

2 from Sarajevo came and explained, as far as I know, how these units were

3 established and made plans.

4 Q. Everybody knows what sabotage training means. You use the term

5 "sabotage training." Were those people responsible for all those sabotage

6 actions on the territory of the municipality I asked you about yesterday

7 and you replied that you didn't know who committed them?

8 A. We supposed it was the JNA. That means their intelligence

9 service.

10 Q. You say in the same place that you didn't believe in the concept

11 of defence of Doboj imposed by the Regional Centre of the SDA, and you

12 turned towards the HDZ centre in Slavonia.

13 A. I realised that these preparations were not really of good

14 quality, and they could not cover Samac, which is 50 kilometres away. And

15 in view of what was going on and the crimes in Bijeljina and elsewhere in

16 Bosnia, we turned more towards the HDZ.

17 Q. All right. Yesterday you denied the existence of any military

18 structure within the SDA. However, in your notes it says very clearly

19 that you had established a Crisis Staff which you yourself called

20 "command." You used the term "command." And even then it had developed

21 a plan of war. You can see that on page 7 of your notes.

22 A. I said even then that all presidents of municipal organisations of

23 the SDA were simultaneously heads of those Crisis Staffs. They were

24 formally called Crisis Staff, but they were bereft of what Crisis Staffs

25 normally included, because they involved very small numbers of Muslims

Page 29975

1 from town. We accounted for only 7, 8 per cent of the population. It was

2 not enough in terms of structure.

3 Q. You said that yesterday. But you say here very clearly: "We

4 simultaneously formed a Crisis Staff." And you used the term precisely

5 "command" and developed the necessary documents such as plan of war?

6 A. Why you don't you read the entirety of that document? We received

7 a document from Sarajevo which specified the things we needed to have.

8 You can establish that and call it command in big places and big

9 municipalities with a large population. You receive papers where it says

10 you should have a command, and we do call it "command," but in reality

11 there is nothing behind it; no manpower, no troops, nothing, no equipment.

12 Q. Well, you are putting it very differently now. Now we're talking

13 about 1990 and beginning of 1991. Is it indisputable, contrary to your

14 testimony of yesterday, that you were preparing for war? Otherwise, why

15 would you need a plan of war?

16 A. First of all, it didn't happen in 1990. And we were not preparing

17 for war.

18 Q. You say that you had made a plan of war.

19 A. It was not in 1990. It was just before the war itself when we

20 received those instructions which said that we should have a Crisis Staff,

21 a security commission, that this commission should make a defence plan.

22 Q. I have no time to read everything that is written here, but what

23 you say here is completely different to what is written.

24 When you speak of the person you appointed head of that command

25 for Samac, Alija Fitozovic, to whom referred -- to whom we referred

Page 29976

1 yesterday on a number of occasions, you say - and that is not mentioned in

2 your statement - that he had a drinking problem, that he was an extremist

3 bent towards the Croats. It's all written on page 7.

4 A. Well, everything is relative, both drinking problems and

5 sympathies for Croats. Everybody, if we're speaking about Muslims, had

6 sympathies for one or the other side. Those who were for the 4th

7 Detachment had sympathies for Serbs. Other people, like Alija Fitozovic,

8 were on the Bosnian side, and that's why he was inclined towards Croats.

9 Q. But you entrusted leadership to a person with a drinking problem.

10 A. What you're saying makes no sense.

11 Q. "We accepted explanations regarding Alija Fitozovic who, due to

12 his drinking problem, did not have a really high rating." That is what

13 is written here. And he was a bit of an extremist.

14 A. I said a bit an extremist. That sounds completely different.

15 Q. We can understand from the text what you really meant.

16 On the same page you say that you then believed that Croats would

17 assist you in case of attack, as was the case in Bosanski Brod, where

18 strong forces of the HV were stationed in Samac -- in Slavonski Brod,

19 sorry.

20 A. I believe that in case of attack, the Croat side would help us.

21 However, it didn't happen.

22 Q. All right. Did Croat forces take part in the actions in Bosanski

23 Brod?

24 A. I don't know what happened in Bosanski Brod. I know they didn't

25 assist us in Bosanski Samac.

Page 29977

1 Q. All right. When you speak about obstruction and failure of

2 Muslims to respond to the reserve forces of the JNA, to join the reserve

3 forces of the JNA, you said yesterday you knew nothing about the appeal

4 made by Alija Izetbegovic.

5 A. I didn't say that.

6 Q. And you say here, I quote: "In keeping with the appeal of Alija

7 Izetbegovic, Muslims, apart from a number of traitors, did not respond to

8 call-ups to do their military service or to join the JNA."

9 A. That's true. Alija Izetbegovic said we shouldn't go into the JNA.

10 Q. So they didn't want to do either their regular military service or

11 to join the reserve.

12 A. The JNA attacked Croatia, and in view of everything that happened

13 there, of course we didn't want to take part in the attack on Croatia. We

14 didn't want our boys to die there.

15 Q. Well, there was no question of that. What you said is that

16 Izetbegovic and everybody who did not comply with his appeal were

17 traitors. Can we establish that much?

18 A. Well, they did not listen to the legal authorities of Bosnia and

19 Herzegovina. Alija Izetbegovic was then the legal authority in Bosnia and

20 Herzegovina.

21 Q. Did it apply to the Muslims only?

22 A. It applied to all residents of Bosnia and Herzegovina. Some

23 complied, some didn't.

24 Q. You said yesterday the 4th Detachment was part of the JNA. It was

25 set up by Lieutenant Colonel Nikolic, but here on page 10 of your notes

Page 29978

1 you wrote: "Simo Zaric, without the knowledge of municipal authorities,

2 established the 4th Detachment mainly made up of members of the Serb

3 community and outcasts of the Muslim and Croat communities."

4 A. Yes, that's what I wrote, but Simo Zaric was a reserve officer of

5 the JNA. He was part of the JNA system, and as such he was appointed by

6 Nikolic assistant commander of the 4th Detachment.

7 Q. Yes, but this 4th Detachment was indubitably multi-ethnic, made up

8 of Croats, Muslims and Serbs. Right or not?

9 A. Mainly Serbs, and to a lesser extent, Muslims and Croats.

10 Q. All right. So there's no doubt that the 4th Detachment was not

11 set up by the JNA. This was not a JNA unit. It was predominantly the

12 Territorial Defence.

13 A. That is questionable. That is questionable. It is quite clear

14 that the JNA formed the 4th Detachment.

15 Q. Then this is some kind of regular unit which goes home. They

16 spent their nights at home. That cannot be a regular JNA unit.

17 A. This is an illegal decision by the JNA, like many others were at

18 the time.

19 Q. When you explain who these outcasts of the Muslim people are, you

20 say in the same place that these were people who had no reputation

21 whatsoever, inclined towards crime and bullyish behaviour. There were

22 also a number of Muslims who came from mixed marriages or had wives of

23 Serb ethnicity; is that right?

24 A. Some such persons were there, not all of them, because a large

25 number of them, when they saw what kind of detachment this was, the 4th

Page 29979

1 Detachment, and what kind of JNA this was, then they left it and they

2 joined the HVO units, the BH army, et cetera.

3 Q. All right. But when you say from mixed marriages, married to Serb

4 women and so on, doesn't it seem to you that this is a nationalist view

5 that you took, even a chauvinist position, if I may say so?

6 A. No, it's not. Because usually these persons -- I mean, for these

7 persons Yugoslavia was the only solution. Many Muslims had already opted

8 for Yugoslavia. They trusted the Yugoslav People's Army. And

9 particularly these people from mixed marriages. They were for the most

10 part inclined towards that and they were less critical, and they had more

11 trust.

12 Q. From that point of view, Fadil Topcagic, Avdo Dzuheric, and Nijaz

13 Ramusovic are three Muslims you call the greatest enemies of the Muslim

14 people.

15 A. I don't know whether I put it that way, that they were the

16 greatest enemies of the Muslim people. No, no, certainly not. They did

17 make a mistake in joining the 4th Detachment. They shouldn't have done

18 that. But that they are the greatest enemies, I mean, one has to do

19 something more in order to become the greatest enemy.

20 Q. You say all members of the detachment were armed and kept their

21 weapons at home.

22 A. Yes. Some of these people were in contact with us as well, and

23 they said that they got a mortar from the JNA or a machine-gun or

24 something like that, because some of them joined us later, together with

25 their weapons.

Page 29980

1 Q. So this could not have been the regular army if they went home and

2 if they kept their weapons at home. And what you're denying now, that you

3 did not use this expression, I'm going to read this out to you:

4 "These three members of the Muslim people were our greatest enemies."

5 That is what you wrote yourself.

6 A. Well, you see what the JNA was like. They gave weapons to people

7 to keep them at home. The Serbs got these weapons a year before that.

8 Q. But that's the Territorial Defence. The Territorial Defence does

9 take their equipment home, and they sleep at home. This cannot be JNA

10 units. JNA units are in barracks.

11 A. No, no, this is not the Territorial Defence, not in the system of

12 Territorial Defence. Lieutenant Colonel Nikolic was commander of that

13 unit together with those who he had appointed.

14 Q. Since you say that the 4th Detachment had the support of the JNA,

15 isn't that a clear indicator that what you stated yesterday was incorrect?

16 Because why would this be support if they were part of the JNA? Then they

17 would be acting as the JNA, not as the 4th Detachment.

18 A. They were part of the 17th Tactical Group. That is what

19 Lieutenant Colonel Nikolic said. And it wasn't only the 4th Detachment of

20 Bosanski Samac. It is a fact that there was another detachment in

21 Crkvina, in a village near Bosanski Samac. This was an entire

22 system, the 17th Tactical Group, whose commander was Lieutenant Colonel

23 Nikolic.

24 Q. All right. You claim that you were trying to avoid a conflict

25 with them and you mentioned the reasons for that, and also you say that

Page 29981

1 you were working on the disintegration of the 4th Detachment. How were

2 you doing that?

3 A. From the inside. We were trying to persuade the people who had

4 joined the 4th Detachment that they did not belong there, and part of them

5 gave us information about arms and meetings and so on, and some of them

6 crossed over to our side and were then detained as soon as they took

7 Samac. There were people there who trusted the JNA, who believed in

8 Yugoslavia, and who were disillusioned when they realised what this was

9 all about, when they realised that this was not the Yugoslav People's

10 Army, that it was a Serb army.

11 Q. All right, Mr. Tihic. One of the ways in which it can be broken

12 up is the description you gave on page 10, but yesterday you did not make

13 any reference to that. I'm quoting you: "We were spreading rumours,

14 publishing secret pamphlets -- leaflets and naming the Muslims who had

15 joined the detachment, and we call them domestic traitors, and we included

16 people like Esad Delic who were not even a member of the 4th Detachment.

17 In this way, we wanted to prevent other people from joining the

18 detachment. We said that we had nothing to do with the leaflet but people

19 knew that it was us."

20 These are your words authentically. Is that right, Mr. Tihic?

21 A. Yes, these are my words.

22 Q. So the only unit that is multi-ethnic, and you tried to

23 disintegrate it, to break it up, and you even published secret leaflets,

24 and you are trying to say that people who were not members of the unit

25 were.

Page 29982

1 A. That's not the way it was, but this unit -- this detachment was

2 part of the project to destroy Bosnia-Herzegovina, and it was joined by

3 some people who were deluded, and we wanted to explain things to them.

4 Q. So you spread these leaflets against them, these secret leaflets

5 against them in order to discredit them?

6 A. Why are they secret?

7 Q. That is what is written in your text. I'm just reading your

8 words. And you said that you had nothing to do with these leaflets, that

9 it had nothing to do with you and so on. And then there were threats, et

10 cetera.

11 A. There were no threats. And of course one disavows something if

12 one does not sign it.

13 JUDGE MAY: Now, your last question, Mr. Milosevic. You've had

14 your time.

15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I really don't know, Mr. May, how to

16 put a question to Mr. Tihic if you won't give me any time at all. This is

17 65 pages, a 65-page statement, Mr. May. How can you give me 20 minutes

18 only?

19 JUDGE MAY: Do you want to ask another question or not?

20 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I want to ask a few more questions

21 unless you turn off my microphone.

22 JUDGE MAY: Yes. You were given 20 minutes, Mr. Milosevic. Now,

23 it's a matter for you; do you want to ask him one more question or not?

24 We'll go on to re-examination if not.

25 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Page 29983

1 Q. Mr. Tihic, on page 15 you say the attack on Samac was not

2 expected. You did not expect it because on the other side of the Sava

3 River were these forces as well as the Green Berets that on several

4 occasions crossed the bridge, and you say that they disarmed the Serbs.

5 So your forces were there together with the Croat forces. Is that

6 right, Mr. Tihic?

7 A. It's not right. You take things out of context and from different

8 parts of my memoir and then you twist it. We were expecting a JNA attack

9 but we were sort of hoping it wouldn't happen. And we were trying to

10 avoid it.

11 Q. Let me just ask you one more thing, Mr. Tihic. You said yesterday

12 when I asked you about different occasions when you organised the shipment

13 of weapons. I put -- you said that I was putting the same question to you

14 five times.

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. And in your memoir, you give six examples of different situations

17 in which you bring in weapons, and you even say that you yourself gave

18 instructions for this. The first example is 100 kilogrammes of explosives

19 and then 10.000 bullets, and then mines and grenades. And then the third

20 example, 30 automatic rifles and five pistols. And then Sead Memic, who

21 also drove weapons. Then also on page 14, you have yet another 50 rifles,

22 mortars, Zoljas, ammunition, and so on.

23 So you gave more examples than I did in your memoir, and yesterday

24 you said to me that I keep quoting the same example to you five times.

25 A. That's not correct. You keep repeating one and the same thing

Page 29984

1 twice. Even now, Sead Memic.

2 Q. But please let us clarify this. Please look at page 12, paragraph

3 1. You said: "We said that we were not opposed to having the JNA in

4 Crkvina, because ultimately it is already there in accordance with the

5 agreement between the republican MUP and the so-called JNA. While we were

6 opposed to their stationing in Uzarija. As a reason, we mentioned the

7 reaction of the Croat side which could cross -- which could close the

8 bridge, and that is Bosnia's only outlet to Europe."

9 I'm quoting you. I'm not drawing on any conclusions.

10 "The real reason was because we knew that ours were transported to

11 Bosnia across this bridge. So a checkpoint by Uzarija would stop the

12 import of weapons."

13 Do you have any comment to make with regard to the assertion you

14 made here which you totally denied yesterday but I'm quoting you right

15 now, Mr. Tihic?

16 A. Well, you see, you destroyed all the bridges on the Sava River.

17 Q. I did not.

18 A. Some weapons came across the bridge on the Sava River, and in

19 comparison to what you distributed to only one ethnic group in Bosnia,

20 this was nothing.

21 JUDGE MAY: Thank you. Do you want to exhibit this document?

22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes.

23 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Very well. Any objection to that Mr. Groome?

24 MR. GROOME: No, Your Honour.

25 JUDGE MAY: We'll get the next D number.

Page 29985

1 THE REGISTRAR: That's Exhibit 222, Your Honour.

2 JUDGE MAY: Thank you. Now, we have this document and we read it.

3 We don't propose to allow any more cross-examination on it. It was for

4 the accused that the extra time was given.

5 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, in light of the fact that the document

6 is now in evidence, I have no further questions. I will rely on the

7 document.

8 JUDGE MAY: Thank you. Very well. Mr. Tihic, thank you for

9 coming back, and you're free to go.

10 [The witness withdrew]

11 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Agha.

12 MR. AGHA: The Prosecution would like to call Mr. Ahmet Zulic.

13 JUDGE MAY: While we're waiting for him, we may as well get a new

14 number for the exhibit bundle.

15 THE REGISTRAR: 609, Your Honours.

16 MR. AGHA: Your Honours, may I also give to the Court and also to

17 the accused and the amici just a brief note which the accused [sic] wanted

18 to put before the Court concerning a slight correction he wanted to make

19 in his statement which he only was able to tell us last night.

20 JUDGE MAY: The witness.

21 MR. AGHA: Yes, when he comes in.

22 JUDGE MAY: You said the accused wanted to put the statement

23 before the Court. I rather doubt that. No doubt the witness.

24 MR. AGHA: Thank you for your correction, Your Honour.

25 [The witness entered court]

Page 29986

1 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Let the witness take the declaration.

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

3 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

4 JUDGE MAY: If you'd like to take a seat.

5 WITNESS: AHMET ZULIC

6 [Witness answered through interpreter]

7 JUDGE MAY: Yes.

8 Examined by Mr. Agha:

9 Q. Mr. Zulic, you made a few corrections to your statement yesterday.

10 We'll kindly show you a piece of paper and you can confirm that those

11 corrections were indeed made by yourself.

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Thank you.

14 MR. AGHA: And may I ask that this be placed before the Court.

15 JUDGE MAY: Yes. We have it. It should be probably exhibited.

16 It may be convenient to make it part of Exhibit 609, give it a tab number

17 in 609.

18 THE REGISTRAR: Tab 12, Your Honour.

19 MR. AGHA: Thank you, Your Honours.

20 Q. Mr. Zulic, have you already given evidence before this Tribunal on

21 the 7th, 17th and 18th of June 2002, in the case of the Prosecutor versus

22 Brdjanin and Talic?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Thank you.

25 MR. AGHA: And it is that evidence, Your Honour, which has been

Page 29987

1 exhibited, with associated exhibits, before this Tribunal. Thank you.

2 Now, this witness is from Sanski Most municipality in Bosnia, and

3 he is a 92 bis (D) witness, so I shall briefly summarise very quickly the

4 essence of his evidence.

5 He was born and grew up in Sanski Most where he also worked, and

6 in 1991 when the war in Croatia was starting, there was a great deal of

7 nationalist propaganda on the radio. The JNA started to set up barricades

8 and search vehicles, and it was only the Muslim vehicles that were

9 searched.

10 The SDS, in April, wanted to divide the municipality into two

11 parts, a Serbian part and a Muslim part. However, the SDA party were not

12 agreeable. Then followed various paramilitary groups, including the White

13 Eagles from Serbia, coming into Sanski Most.

14 On the 13th of May, the Serb army attacked the village of Trnovo

15 with mortars and anti-aircraft cannons, and on the 14th of May, the Serbs

16 attacked Sanski Most police station which had already been divided. The

17 witness heard these explosions.

18 The Muslim population were then required to surrender all their

19 weapons, which they did, at least most of them. And then on 27th of May,

20 1992, the inhabitants of the village of Mahala were gathered in the local

21 soccer stadium. On the 28th of May, the Serb artillery shelled Mahala.

22 There was no resistance because that suburb of Sanski Most was empty, the

23 inhabitants being already in the soccer stadium.

24 After that, some of the houses were set on fire and the village

25 was looted. This was witnessed by Mr. Zulic.

Page 29988

1 On the 18th of June Mr. Zulic was arrested and taken to the

2 Betonirka factory, which became a detention facility. It consisted of

3 three small garages and there were 30 people in this garage. There was

4 not enough room, it was too hot, and they were regularly beaten by the

5 guards.

6 On one occasion, on the 22nd of June, the witness was taken out of

7 the garage and was taken by car to a place called Kriva Cesta where he was

8 given a hoe and ordered to join about 20 to 25 other men and to start

9 digging his grave. Whilst at a picnic table about a hundred metres away

10 the witness saw the then-president of the SDS, Mr. Rasula, with other

11 officials and also Serbs wearing JNA uniforms. All of the men except

12 three were slaughtered. The witness however, had a pistol put in his

13 mouth, had some teeth knocked out, but was taken back to Betonirka

14 detention facility.

15 On the 7th of July he was transported to Manjaca camp. Before

16 getting on the truck the detainees were all again severely beaten. Inside

17 the truck, again, it was overcrowded, it was extremely hot, there was no

18 water hardly, and despite their shouts for assistance, a number of the

19 people in the truck died. They were not given any assistance. A young

20 man of 18 died in the witness's lap.

21 On reaching Manjaca, when the witness got out of the truck, there

22 were about 18 to 20 people lying in the truck, most of them motionless.

23 About six of these showed some signs of life but a doctor examined them

24 and they were put back on the truck because the camp commander didn't want

25 them because they were dying.

Page 29989

1 Whilst in Manjaca, the witness was held in a stable with other

2 detainees. The food was inadequate. He was severely beaten, as were most

3 of the other detainees, and he also witnessed at least two of the

4 detainees being killed.

5 After such beatings, often the witness would fall unconscious.

6 The beatings were carried out by guards, and he suffered broken ribs and

7 injuries to his head. He was eventually released from Manjaca on 24th,

8 25th November, 1992, with his weight having been reduced from 90 kilos to

9 55 kilos.

10 Now, that is the essence of this witness's evidence, which is also

11 before you in his transcripts together with a number of exhibits which

12 include diaries which were made by the witness and set out in far further

13 detail actually what happened to him and the conditions in which he was

14 detained, and that ends my examination-in-chief.

15 JUDGE MAY: One hour for cross-examination, Mr. Milosevic, if you

16 require it.

17 Cross-examined by Mr. Milosevic:

18 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Zulic, you made and signed two statements,

19 the first on the 24th of May, 2000, which is shorter and which you made to

20 the authorities in Bosnia; and the second, considerably longer, you made

21 on the 15th and 16th of February and on the 14th of June, 2001.

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Is this correct?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Were you telling the truth in both statements?

Page 29990

1 A. No.

2 Q. In which statement did you tell the truth and which didn't you?

3 A. I didn't tell the truth in any of them. If Their Honours will

4 close the session for the public, I will explain why.

5 JUDGE MAY: Yes.

6 [Private session]

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 29991

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12 Page 29991 redacted private session.

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

Page 29992

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 [Open session]

17 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session.

18 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

19 Q. Very well, Mr. Zulic. We have established then that you were not

20 telling the truth in both statements, but let us see what, in fact, can be

21 clarified. I hope you will assist.

22 Tell me, please, what was the composition of the population in the

23 Sanski Most municipality before the war?

24 A. To tell the truth, I can't be precise, but I do know that there

25 were about -- that there were about 2 or 3 per cent more Muslims than

Page 29993

1 Serbs in Sanski Most. Whether it was 2, 3, or 5 per cent, I can't be

2 sure.

3 Q. Very well. I'm not insisting on precise data. At the elections

4 in 1990, the Serbian Democratic Party won the elections. Is that correct?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And the president of the municipality was Nedeljko Rasula.

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. And right after the SDS was the SDA; is this correct?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. And the deputy, Mirzet Karabeg, the deputy mayor, was from the

11 SDA.

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. So who does Sanski Most belong to now; the federation or Republika

14 Srpska?

15 A. The federation.

16 Q. Tell me, how many Serbs are there now in Sanski Most?

17 A. I don't know.

18 Q. Very well. Do you have information as to how many Serbs fled from

19 Sanski Most?

20 A. I'm not a politician. I'm not interested in this. I was not

21 active in politics either before the war or after the war, Your Honours.

22 I'm not interested in this. I know that very few Serbs have come back,

23 but I'm not a politician, and I don't keep statistics.

24 Q. Do you know that the Serbs were expelled from Sanski Most?

25 A. No, they weren't expelled. They fled. Those are two different

Page 29994

1 things. To be expelled and to flee, those are two different things.

2 Q. Very well, Mr. Zulic. We won't go into these nuances as to

3 whether they were expelled or whether they fled because their lives were

4 threatened. Let's leave that aside now.

5 Tell me, please, you say that you were not active in politics, and

6 I respect that, but on page 1, the last paragraph, and on the third page

7 of your statement of 2001, you say: "I noticed the first changes in the

8 municipality when the war in Croatia began. For example, I heard some

9 miners, Serbs who were coming back from the front in Croatia, as they

10 said, and who said that the Muslims would have problems when the war

11 started."

12 A. That's correct. That's what I heard, because I was a shift leader

13 -- don't interrupt me; I don't interrupt you. I was a shift leader in the

14 mine, and as we went to the mine by bus, I was actually foreman under the

15 ground, and I was able to visit every part of the mine. And people split

16 into groups, and those who were called up for regular military exercises

17 went to Croatia, and they received their salaries. I was able to have

18 access to them and to hear what they were saying, and of course these were

19 changes that took place, of course.

20 Q. Yes. But I'm sorry if you think I interrupted you. I wasn't

21 interrupting you, I hadn't completed my question. I was quoting you. And

22 three sentences further on, only three sentences further on, you say: "In

23 June 1991, I remember telling my friends that the Muslims were expecting

24 terrible things to happen."

25 This was in June when the war hadn't even started in Slovenia let

Page 29995

1 alone in Croatia.

2 A. Have you finished your question?

3 Q. On the basis of what did you conclude this?

4 A. I concluded this -- I'll tell you the names. Todor Bilbija -- let

5 me just remember the other man's name from Koprina [phoen]. Lazo

6 Damjanovic, Mile Apac. The three of them were standing there in a corridor

7 near the rubber conveyer belt underground, and they were saying that they

8 were going for military exercises, and they said that everything that bore

9 the Muslim name would vanish. I said to them, "But we're working here

10 together." And they said, "No, we know what we know, and you do your

11 job."

12 Q. Very well, Mr. Zulic. So you concluded that the Muslims would

13 have problems when the war began before any war had broken out.

14 A. Would you repeat your question?

15 Q. So you discussed the problems that the Muslims would have at a

16 time when no one could have come back from the front in Croatia, when you

17 couldn't have heard about this from Serbs. Is this correct or not?

18 A. They were already going for military exercises. And when they

19 came back, they would gather together as I have just explained. They went

20 for military exercises, and they talked, and I overheard their

21 conversations, and I told them what I've just said. I said, "Men, don't

22 you see that we're working here, working together?" And they said, "You

23 mind your business and we'll mind ours."

24 Your Honours, if anyone is intelligent, they can understand. I

25 heard this with my own ears. Todor Bilbija, Lazo Damjanovic, and Mile

Page 29996

1 whose last name I can't remember but we all called him Japa, they said

2 this.

3 Q. Very well, Mr. Zulic. Please don't go into these details, and

4 don't tell us the names of people standing by the conveyer belt in the

5 mine, because this is a waste of time.

6 Let me just ask you: According to your statement of 2001, you saw

7 the first checkpoint in September 1991.

8 A. Correct.

9 Q. At that time, everybody was stopped. No differences were made.

10 This is what it says in your statement.

11 A. Yes, this is correct.

12 Q. Mr. Agha just said that only Muslims were searched. What is true?

13 A. I think that the gentleman mistook the year. I think that it says

14 in my statement that starting in March 1992, it was only Muslims who were

15 searched, and I think it says in my statement that starting in 1991, when

16 the first checkpoints were set up in 1991, that's how it was. And in

17 1992, starting in March or April -- I can't remember because 12 years have

18 elapsed, but since -- after that time, only Muslims were searched, only

19 non-Serbs, that is, Croats and Muslims. I know because I sometimes went

20 to work by car, and my car was regularly searched.

21 Q. How do you know that Serb cars were not searched, and how would

22 they know which car was Serb and which was Muslim? The cars did not have

23 any signs on them.

24 A. Yes, they did. You could see on one's driving licence what

25 ethnicity they were. They would stop people, check them. And Sanski Most

Page 29997

1 was so small that we all practically knew each other.

2 Q. All right. In September you saw the first checkpoint. At that

3 time, everybody was checked without distinction, and you heard about the

4 arming of the Serbs the eve of Bajram 1992, from Erevin Bajramovic

5 [phoen].

6 A. I think it's Elmin Nadarevic. And we left work early for Bajram.

7 We were in the second shift.

8 Q. I apologise for interrupting you but there's no need to explain

9 what shift you were on. All I'm trying to establish is this: The first

10 checkpoint you saw was in September 1991 when everybody was checked, and

11 on the eve of Bajram 1992, you heard from this colleague of yours that

12 Serbs were arming. So you say so both of these phenomena, the checkpoints

13 in 1991 and what your colleague told you in 1992 on the eve of Bajram,

14 this could not be the basis of the allegation you made that the Muslims

15 were expecting terrible things to happen, because you learned about this

16 several months after June 1991. Both of these things happened much later

17 and couldn't have prompted your expectations.

18 A. First of all, you did interrupt me, and secondly, I have to expand

19 because you're putting lengthy questions to me, because if I don't explain

20 everything, you ask the same question again.

21 I wanted to explain, for example, that I think this man's name was

22 not Bajramovic but Nadarevic. I think it's a mistake in the translation.

23 And secondly, he got back to the car -- he got into my car and he said,

24 "Please, I can't pass through here. Put me in the car and drive me home

25 taking a roundabout route." He said, "The army is distributing weapons

Page 29998

1 here. Who are they distributing the weapons to? Serbs." I said, "Well,

2 let's join the queue and get weapons too." I'm just saying what I said.

3 But we did go around and I saw a military truck parked there and people

4 coming and taking weapons from it. I saw this with my own eyes together

5 with this other man.

6 Q. Have you finished, Mr. Zulic?

7 A. Yes, I have, thank you.

8 Q. From your statement from 2001, it follows from the last two

9 paragraphs on page 3 that most Serb soldiers in Sanski Most were local

10 Serbs, as you say.

11 A. That was the SOS, the Serbian armed forces, SOS. I think it

12 should state that somewhere here.

13 Q. I'm asking you is it correct that most of these forces were made

14 up of local people, local Serbs, as you say?

15 A. Most of them, yes. In the town, yes. The ones manning the

16 checkpoints, the ones driving around by car -- by truck, Nunja, Medeni

17 Saovic. Medeni, that was his nickname, I really don't know his name.

18 Nunja was a driver in my company. Medeni was a mechanic. They were the

19 leaders of the SOS.

20 Q. All right. They were your colleagues from work.

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Very well. Then you say that in May 1992, and that is the last

23 paragraph on page 3, you noticed that many different units were passing

24 through the municipality. What were those units? Were they passing on a

25 road that units were using?

Page 29999

1 A. Right below my village - my village is called Pobrijezje, and it

2 is called Pobrijezje because it's in the foot of a hill or on the slope of

3 a hill - there is a road, so you can see well when units are passing.

4 Q. Where were they going, in which direction?

5 A. Some of them were going in the direction of Lusci Palanka and

6 Bosanska Krupa. Others were going towards a hill called Dzedovaca.

7 Q. Were they also local units, the Territorial Defence, something

8 like that? What were they? Were they paramilitaries?

9 A. In those units, there were lorries -- not only lorries but tanks

10 and those armoured vehicles with a gun turret on top. There wore JNA

11 emblems.

12 Q. All right. You speak of various paramilitary units. You mention

13 White Eagles and then you use the term "Seselj's men," and you say they

14 were coming from all parts of the country, dressed in olive drab grey

15 uniforms. How did you establish that they were White Eagles or Seselj's

16 men, on what basis?

17 A. Well, White Eagles wore those white ribbons on the left arm, as

18 far as I remember, and Seselj's men wore fur-lined hats with cockades, and

19 they wore long beards.

20 Q. Was that a paramilitary unit or what?

21 A. I think they were paramilitaries. How could I know? I know they

22 had weapons. I know what they looked like. But whether they were regular

23 troops, irregular troops or paramilitaries, I have no idea. I didn't put

24 those emblems on them, so I don't know.

25 Q. Well, that's precisely what I'm asking. How can you know that

Page 30000

1 some of them were Seselj's men? According to my information, they only

2 joined the JNA or the Territorial Defence as volunteers. They didn't have

3 units of their own. Did you see a unit of Seselj's men?

4 A. Their unit was stationed on a cemetery where Partisans from World

5 War II are buried. It's called Milen Birit [phoen]. One of them was a

6 local resident, because whenever these paramilitary units came, they would

7 recruit a couple of local men. And I know one of these locals. He was a

8 digger in the mine. I can't remember his name right now.

9 I saw this man on one occasion and I was very surprised to see

10 that he had a cockade on his headgear. His name is Milo. If you give me

11 a second, I will remember his name. Uros Boranovic [phoen].

12 Q. In a transcript I'm reading from your testimony in the Brdjanin

13 and Talic case, page ending with number 6856, lines 4 to 8, it seems to

14 follow that White Eagles and Seselj's men are one and the same thing. I

15 think you must be confused in your mind, and that's what you said in

16 response to a question from this bogus Prosecution. Could you tell me

17 just one thing: Are these two different groups or one and the same?

18 A. They're all the same to me. He came to our town to kill Muslims,

19 and to me it's all the same whether he's an Arkan's man or Seselj's man or

20 a White Eagle. They didn't like Muslims, obviously. If they did, we

21 would have met them with flowers.

22 Q. All right, Mr. Zulic. As to how these conflicts began, there is

23 enough information available. I will only stick to your statement.

24 On -- towards the end of page 3 of this statement from year 2000

25 you say that: "I know that Rasula --" that's the man who became president

Page 30001

1 of the municipality, right?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. I continue: "I know that Rasula and these SOS men met behind the

4 cafe called United Brothers, owned by Mustafa. I know this because

5 Muhamed Karabeg, who was a maintenance man in my mine, had a shop behind

6 this location and he told me that Rasula and other members of the War

7 Presidency regularly meet with SOS men and with Mr. Saovic, who is

8 commander of the SOS men."

9 Now, tell me, don't you think it doesn't make any sense at all to

10 conceive that the president of the municipality and members of the War

11 Presidency, that is to say the authorities who have their own offices,

12 would meet behind some cafe?

13 A. I have to clarify this, Your Honours. Since one of the Krunic

14 brothers - whether it was Buco or Milorad, I don't know - owned a cafe a

15 little bit to the front and the other had a cafe behind, they would meet

16 there. So when they were organising parties, dinners, festivities, they

17 would do it in the second cafe behind the first cafe.

18 Q. Is that to say that they sat together in a coffee bar having

19 dinner or drinks?

20 A. Yes. That's how it was.

21 Q. So you saw them having dinner or lunch together or something like

22 that?

23 A. I didn't. Muhamed did.

24 Q. All right. Muhamed did. Now --

25 A. But look, I saw them once when I was bringing material. And I'm

Page 30002

1 sorry I'm interrupting you. I brought some material because he had asked

2 me to. That material was some progress report for work. And I saw this

3 drinking party with my own eyes.

4 Q. So you saw him sitting in a cafe and drinking and eating, but

5 that's not what I'm asking you about. From your statement, pages 5 and 6,

6 it follows that in the second half of May 1992, you went to the mine to

7 collect your salary, and you saw with your own eyes members of the War

8 Presidency meeting outside of the Slozna Braca cafe, and you named them,

9 Rasa, Zjenic [phoen], Tripkovic, Maric, and others. You knew about these

10 meetings from the stories of Muhamed Karabeg.

11 A. Yes. I submitted my report, I collected my salary, and that's

12 what I wanted to ask you. Just ask me your questions so we save time for

13 your own sake.

14 Q. Okay. And you name on one of the pages the members of the War

15 Presidency, and you say that Boro Tadic, who was a friend of yours, was in

16 the War Presidency, in charge of the SOS. You say: "I would see him

17 coming to those meetings."

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Okay. If -- and this is my question: If you knew about these

20 meetings from the stories of Muhamed Karabeg apart from that one case when

21 you saw them gathering outside the cafe with the exception of Boro Tadic,

22 how can you say that you would see Boro Tadic coming to the meetings?

23 A. No. I saw him that once. Maybe it's a translation mistake.

24 Maybe the translator said "meetings" and I said "meeting." It could be an

25 error.

Page 30003

1 Q. All right. In the penultimate paragraph on page 4, statement of

2 2000, you say that in April you bought a machine-gun from a Serb for your

3 own personal protection.

4 A. Correct.

5 Q. Isn't that a bit too much, to buy a machine-gun?

6 A. Have you completed your question?

7 Q. How did it ever occur to you to buy a machine-gun?

8 A. I went to this cafe with my nephews, and this Serb took me aside

9 and said, "Come on, buy this. You'll need it." I paid him 500

10 deutschmark for it. He chipped in 20 rounds. And if you ask me how it

11 ever occurred to me, of course it occurred to me. I had a family to think

12 of. Of course, if life had been normal, if everything had been as usual,

13 of course I would have never bought it. And for many years, withdrawals

14 were made from my salary to finance the JNA. And the same goes for all

15 the Muslims. We armed the JNA, and they took and distributed weapons to

16 only one ethnic group. If they had been a real army, they would have

17 either disarmed all ethnic groups or distributed weapons to all ethnic

18 groups, and then there would have been no bloodshed. But it's true. They

19 did distribute weapons to one ethnic group.

20 And it was, I think, some sort of foul play because you might say

21 that 500 deutschmark was very little to pay for a machine-gun, but that's

22 how things were at the time. And I think it was a set-up, because people

23 who later came to look for a weapon in my house had the serial number of

24 my gun.

25 Q. Did you say you threw it later into a well in your village?

Page 30004

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Not because you gave up the idea of defending your family but

3 because you thought it might have been a set-up; right?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. All right. I understand now. Because I found it difficult to

6 understand earlier when you say that the Serbs later interrogated you

7 about this purchase, "And I kept denying that I had ever bought a gun,

8 otherwise they would have killed me for sure." If they knew you had a

9 machine-gun, and they probably didn't since they were only questioning

10 you, and moreover, if you had been set up by them, wouldn't you think that

11 denying it was more dangerous than just confirming something they knew

12 anyway, all the more so because you never used that machine-gun?

13 A. Your Honour, well, that's exactly the crux of the matter. That's

14 the reason why I didn't turn over my gun, because all those who did were

15 killed. They're dead now. Anybody who had a weapon of any kind is dead

16 now. They're not among the living any more. Anybody who ever surrendered

17 a weapon, even a sporting rifle.

18 Q. Is there any sense in what you're saying? I can't understand how

19 somebody could have been killed just because they turned over a hunting

20 rifle.

21 A. I can tell you the names.

22 Q. That's not what I'm asking you. I'm not asking you about the

23 names, I'm just trying to fit facts together. I don't know the names even

24 if you told them. But does it make any sense at all that somebody would

25 be killed just because they responded to an appeal and turned over the gun

Page 30005

1 to the police?

2 A. I'm sorry, Your Honour, but I would have to take some time to

3 explain this. I know about my village. I made those -- I made a picture

4 in my head. I have an understanding. Teufik Camber [phoen] turned over a

5 sporting rifle at the time. He's now dead. Idriz Karabeg was killed that

6 same year after turning over a hunting rifle. Mr. Omic also turned over

7 the same gun and was killed. Another man I know turned over an army rifle

8 and was killed. It wasn't difficult to understand.

9 Q. All right, Mr. Zulic. On page 4 you say: "I have never been a

10 member of organised or unorganised resistance. I know people who wanted

11 to organise some sort of resistance, but nobody actually did it."

12 And already on the next page, on page 5, in the paragraph which

13 begins with the words, "On the 13th of May, 1992 ..." you say: "In our

14 patrols in Pobrijezje, we were still using hunting weapons and our own

15 rifles." So after all, you did conduct some armed activities.

16 A. That's not true.

17 Q. I'm only quoting you.

18 A. Well, you can continue to quote me. We agreed with people from

19 the next village, with Serbs, to have guards organised, not patrols. I

20 think you are misquoting me. I could not have said that. All I said was

21 we had a meeting with the Serbs, not only Pobrijezje but also villages of

22 Sehovci, Trnova, and Podlug. And we agreed at this meeting to have joint

23 guards with Serbs. However, when we came actually there to stand guard to

24 Podlug, the Serbs said you stand your own guard and we'll stand our own.

25 So Serbs wanted to have their own Serb guards and Muslims wanted to have

Page 30006

1 -- Muslims were told to keep their own guards. So it was not a military

2 organisation of any kind.

3 Q. But it is beyond dispute that you had weapons.

4 A. Well, I did have a hunting weapon.

5 Q. So those were not unarmed guards or guard posts. You were using

6 the guns you had.

7 A. So were the Serbs. They were not unarmed.

8 Q. I'm not even saying that.

9 A. I am saying that. I saw it with my own eyes. They put up a guard

10 post outside the house of Aco Veselinovic. They put up those iron grills,

11 sandbags, and machine-gun nest. And when we came to join them, as agreed,

12 they said, "No. You keep your own guards." I'm telling you what I saw

13 with my own eyes.

14 Q. Mr. Zulic, I understand you full well. My question only referred

15 to this quotation from page 5 where you said: "In our patrols in

16 Pobrijezje, we were still using hunting weapons and our own rifles."

17 So at any rate, you were armed, as I want to establish because you

18 previously said you were unarmed, having turned over all your weapons

19 previously.

20 A. Well, something doesn't sound right here. Wait a minute.

21 Somewhere in my statement that I gave to the investigators you should be

22 able to find a place where I said that guards stopped after weapons were

23 turned over. Dragan Adzic, son of Slavo Adzic, came and picked up all our

24 weapons. From that time on, there were no more guard posts. So those are

25 two different things. One thing is your interpretation, and the other

Page 30007

1 thing is reality. You want to represent me as saying that we had weapons

2 throughout that time. You may be a better reader than I am, I have only

3 the secondary school, but if you are careful and if you read carefully,

4 you find that; I said it.

5 Q. Very well, Mr. Zulic, but please bear in mind the fact that I'm

6 just quoting your statement. I really don't have any other information

7 except for your own statement. That is why I'm asking for an explanation,

8 because I quoted to you what is written over here. But let us move on.

9 In the second paragraph on page 5, before the sentence on patrols,

10 so before the sentence on patrols, it says, and I'm reading out from your

11 statement exactly the way it's been written, I'm quoting you:

12 "Until then --" and that is the 13th of May, 1992 -- "until -- by this

13 time, Muslims and Croats had to return the former JNA uniforms and any

14 private weapons in their possession. Also, the weapons that Muslims and

15 Croats were issued in the TO were seized, that the TO had given them."

16 A. Correct.

17 Q. So Muslims and Croats had not acted in accordance with that order

18 because, according to what you said, they had their own patrols and they

19 had guard duty; is that right?

20 A. I explained this the first time in relation to the 13th of May.

21 Q. All right. All right.

22 A. After the 13th of May, after this was taken away -- well, it

23 wasn't taken away.

24 Your Honour, I have to go on for a while. I do apologise, but I

25 have to explain some things.

Page 30008

1 These weapons were not seized in the sense of them going from one

2 house to the other. Quite simply, over the radio they said Muslims and

3 Croats -- this is quite literally what they said: "Muslims and Croats,

4 hand over your weapons. The Serb authorities guarantee your safety and

5 security as well as that of your property." That was over the radio.

6 And immediately over the radio they said, for example in the case

7 of Pobrijezje, that this would be by the social centre in the village of

8 Pobrijezje, that military personnel would come there and they would take

9 these weapons. And people did bring the weapons in. And that is why I

10 threw my weapon away.

11 Q. All right, Mr. Zulic. On the 13th of May you did that, and from

12 the 13th of May onwards you didn't have any weapons.

13 A. No one in the village had any weapons.

14 Q. All right. On page 5 you say: "On the 13th of May, I saw Serbs

15 leaving in military trucks for the mountains. I saw that they had their

16 families with them, with tractors. They left behind those Serbs who had

17 not yet made up their minds and threatened them because they had not put

18 on their uniforms." That is a quotation from your statement.

19 A. Exactly.

20 Q. Now, tell me, isn't it pointless for Serbs, who are in charge of

21 the authorities in the government there and who, in your opinion, have

22 Sanski Most under their control, and there in Sanski Most, in your own

23 words there are no Muslim or Croat armed forces and there are no

24 operations, they are fleeing with tractors into the mountains. Why were

25 they fleeing into the mountains? I've quoted you just now.

Page 30009

1 A. Correct, you've quoted me.

2 Q. With tractors, their families going into the mountains.

3 A. Have you finished?

4 Q. Of course I have.

5 A. In your opinion, that is pointless, right, but there seems to be

6 something different involved there, a different example altogether. Since

7 the town had a mixed population, Mahala and Muhici were, say, 90 per cent

8 Muslim, and the remaining 10 per cent were Serbs and Croats.

9 Now, since Sanski Most was supposed to be targeted from the hills,

10 was there the possibility of a shell straying into a neighbourhood where

11 there was a Serb majority? That was the reason. Because Zeljko Srbac, an

12 engineer from the mine, said -- and I'm sorry I'm using an expletive now

13 when I quote, I'm quoting what Zeljko said, "Oh, fuck they left me and my

14 family just because I didn't want to get dressed, and they took

15 everything." Because I asked him why they were going into the mountains.

16 Are you happy with this answer?

17 Q. Of course I am.

18 JUDGE MAY: Don't ask the accused if he's happy with the answer.

19 He'd better be. He can ask you some further questions.

20 But you've only got a quarter of an hour left, Mr. Milosevic.

21 We'll adjourn now for 20 minutes.

22 Mr. Zulic, I must tell you, as we tell all witnesses, please don't

23 speak to anybody about your evidence until it's over, and that does

24 include the members of the Prosecution team. Could you be back, please,

25 in 20 minutes.

Page 30010

1 --- Recess taken at 10.30 a.m.

2 --- On resuming at 10.58 a.m.

3 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Milosevic.

4 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May, could you please explain

5 something to me. This witness is testifying on the basis of your Rule 92

6 bis, that is to say without examination-in-chief. The basis for my

7 cross-examination are the statements that were provided to me. But then

8 the witness said that they are not correct, these statements. So I assume

9 that you should give me some time to establish what in actual fact did

10 happen over there. Otherwise, I do not see how I can carry out a

11 cross-examination on the basis of the statements that the witness himself

12 said were incorrect. He admitted that they were incorrect.

13 JUDGE MAY: The documents which were admitted are in the bundle of

14 Exhibit 609, and the document which has been admitted is the transcript of

15 his testimony in Brdjanin together with several other exhibits which

16 aren't statements or anything connected with it. So no statement has been

17 admitted.

18 We have got an addendum in which he clarifies something, but at

19 the moment, his statements aren't admitted.

20 MR. AGHA: Your Honour, if I may be of assistance. I don't

21 believe, actually, the witness has said that his statement which he gave

22 the ICTY is incorrect.

23 JUDGE MAY: Well, no doubt that's something you can clarify in due

24 course, Mr. Agha.

25 Yes. If you want to ask any further questions about the

Page 30011

1 statements, which are not in evidence at the moment, if you want to ask

2 any further questions about them, you can, but bear in mind you may have

3 to go into private session to do so.

4 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right, Mr. May, but do I have

5 the time now for questioning this witness?

6 JUDGE MAY: If you move on with it, we'll see. There's a limit to

7 the time you can have, as you know, with any witness. We'll see what use

8 you make of the quarter of an hour which remains for you.

9 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

10 Q. All right. Mr. Zulic, in your statement of 2001, you said that on

11 the 14th of May, over the radio, you heard that the Serb forces had

12 attacked the Muslim police station located in Sanski Most, and that after

13 it was divided, the police station, that it was in the basement and that

14 you personally heard explosions around 2200 hours in the evening.

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Were these explosions a result of the attack on the police

17 station?

18 A. I think so.

19 Q. If there were explosions, that means that some kind of heavy

20 weaponry was used. How is it possible for someone to attack the basement

21 of the municipality with some kind of heavy weaponry without damaging in

22 any way the municipality building itself? Because it was the SDS that

23 held the municipal authorities in its own hands in that building.

24 A. Not then. At that time, the municipality was empty. After the

25 municipality was divided, the Yugoslav People's Army was there too. On

Page 30012

1 the 18th of April, the Yugoslav People's Army blocked the town, and it was

2 announced over the radio that the town would be divided into the Serb and

3 Muslim sections. The army stood by the bridge on the Sana River and in

4 front of the police station and in the square while they held a meeting at

5 the municipality building on that day. I know that because I went for the

6 memorial service of Hamil Asic [phoen], a relative of mine, and we could

7 not get from the mosque to the cemetery. We had to walk all the way

8 around town. Then we had to pass by the police station in order to get to

9 the Greda cemetery. And I saw a military vehicle there in front of the

10 police station at the crossroads where the road to Greda is as well as the

11 road leading to the centre of town.

12 The mosque is on the other side of the bridge, so I saw this on

13 the other side of the bridge. And when they divided the town, they said

14 that the Muslims had control of the municipality building, whereas the

15 Serbs had control of the police station, the Kljucka Street, and I cannot

16 remember everything else now, how it was divided exactly. It's been

17 almost 12 years now -- no, almost 13 years now since that division, but I

18 know that it was roughly along those lines.

19 Q. All right. In relation to the attack on the SUP, the members of

20 the Muslim SUP, did they offer any resistance or not?

21 A. No, they didn't.

22 Q. Tell me, if they did not offer any resistance, why would anybody

23 use weapons to attack someone who was not resisting? And with heavy

24 weaponry at that, because you heard an explosion.

25 A. Well, look: My assumption is, and you will have to ask those who

Page 30013

1 did the attacking, but my assumption is that this had the intention of

2 expelling the Muslims from the municipality.

3 Q. All right, Mr. Zulic. On page 2, in paragraph 2 -- let us try to

4 deal with this as fast as possible -- you mention your diary that you kept

5 in Manjaca from the 15th of July, 1992, onwards; is that right?

6 A. I think it was from the 28th of August that I started keeping not

7 a diary but simply started jotting things down in a pad that I got from a

8 Serb from Banja Luka.

9 Q. All right. You say that you got this in a package that this Serb

10 friend of yours sent to you.

11 A. Yes, that's right.

12 Q. So people were allowed to receive parcels at the camp in Manjaca.

13 A. From the 28th of August.

14 Q. When arriving in another country, as you said in the same

15 paragraph, you copied your diary in three new notebooks; is that right?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Tell me now, what happened to the original notes that you wrote

18 down in this writing pad that you got in the parcel from your friend?

19 A. I have them. I mean, what notes do you mean?

20 Q. The original notes that you made in that writing pad in camp,

21 because you say that you copied this in three new notebooks. What

22 happened to the original writings?

23 A. I have the original. Here it is. And, Your Honours, this is it.

24 Q. So you did not hand it in, so it cannot be seen?

25 A. I handed in copies and copies exist. That is in the transcript,

Page 30014

1 that I handed in copies of this.

2 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Agha, will you help us, please. Is this -- we

3 have a handwritten text attached to the exhibits, Exhibit 609, tab 3. Is

4 that the document to which we're referring?

5 MR. AGHA: Yes. This ought to be his handwritten diary which was

6 exhibited.

7 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Yes, let's go on.

8 Thank you very much. No need to hand it in.

9 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

10 Q. Tell me, did you submit a copy of precisely that piece of paper

11 that you're holding in your hands now or what you wrote down in these

12 three notebooks later?

13 A. Copies of this and copies of the three notebooks too. I handed in

14 all these copies.

15 Q. I'm asking you this because I did not receive a copy of that or of

16 the three notebooks.

17 Tell me, in these notebooks in which you copied these notes, did

18 you refer to events that took place before the 15th?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. So even before you started keeping this diary as of the 28th of

21 August, as you had put it?

22 A. Yes. On the basis of my memory, as far as I could remember. I

23 started keeping it sometime from the village of Ravno, when the village of

24 Ravno was levelled. And then through Bijeljina, Sarajevo, I just briefly

25 wrote down how things went there.

Page 30015

1 Q. All right. In this same paragraph you say that your diary is a

2 lengthy one and that it includes information that is not contained in your

3 statement. At the same time, you say that your statement contains things

4 that do not exist in the diary. So what is this all about?

5 A. I think that you're putting the wrong questions to me or that

6 you're trying to say something wrong.

7 First of all, I stand by what I said to the Judges, that my diary

8 is the way it is. It doesn't even contain 10 per cent of all the things

9 that happened to me and that happened in Sanski Most. That is the first

10 thing I wish to say.

11 The second thing I wish to say is I did not want to write down

12 many things in these -- this diary, because when this diary was written,

13 nobody knew anything about The Hague. I did not think that I was writing

14 it for the public. I wrote on the first page of this diary "Lest our

15 grandchildren forget." So there are many things I did not write down,

16 because I wanted -- I did not want my grandchildren to know everything

17 that I had gone through, Your Honours, because there would be even more

18 hatred in their hearts if they knew everything that had happened.

19 Mr. Milosevic insists on quoting only one thing, I mean, why I did

20 not want to say everything, but could we please move into private session

21 now so that I could tell you at least part of this, just one little part

22 of what I experienced and why I did not write it down, please?

23 JUDGE MAY: Yes.

24 [Private session]

25 (redacted)

Page 30016

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 [Open session]

20 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session.

21 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

22 Q. Mr. Zulic, my question was related only to a quotation from your

23 statement, where you say: "My diary is a lengthy one and it contains

24 details that are not in my statement, and the statement contains things

25 that I eyewitnessed and are not contained in my diary."

Page 30017

1 A. I don't think that it says that my diary is a lengthy one.

2 Q. I'm reading what it says here. "My diary is a lengthy one, and it

3 contains details that are not in my statement." I'm reading this from

4 page 2 of your statement. Basically it is the first page of your

5 statement, but it is marked as page 2 of your witness statement. This is

6 the one but last sentence in your second paragraph. So it says: My diary

7 is lengthy and contains details that are not in my statement, and my

8 statement contains items that I witnessed and that are not in my diary."

9 I read the whole sentence to you, from the first capital letter up

10 to the full stop at the end. I have no other basis for putting questions

11 to you except for your own statement, Mr. Zulic.

12 A. It is true that that is what it says here, but if you look at

13 this, it should not have been the word used, "lengthy," no, because the

14 day before yesterday, when I was with the Prosecutor, I said that only

15 this much was written in my diary. And probably as I was reading this, I

16 skipped that.

17 However, in the transcript from the last trial, there is what I

18 said exactly in the transcript when I testified the last time, that my

19 diary is this big, just -- just so that my grandchildren would not forget,

20 and that I did not explain anything in detail.

21 Q. All right, Mr. Zulic. In paragraph 1 on page 14, you say that on

22 the 29th of August, when you arrived in Manjaca, you stopped taking notes

23 in your diary; is that right?

24 A. Yes, that's right.

25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] However, in the case that I

Page 30018

1 mentioned for you, Mr. May, here, and then I'm giving you the exact case

2 number --

3 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreters note that this is being read out

4 too fast, they cannot keep up.

5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] It is the Kvocka case.

6 JUDGE MAY: If you're going to read, read fairly slowly.

7 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

8 Q. It says, and it was established by your own decision or the

9 decision taken by your colleagues, that this was some kind of a fact, that

10 1.464 persons from Prijedor were taken to Manjaca on the 6th of August,

11 1992. You are talking about prisoners of the 29th of August, that they

12 arrived from Prijedor then, and that is when you stopped keeping a diary

13 altogether, whereas in this other case the date mentioned is the 6th of

14 August. Which one is correct?

15 A. It is correct that it was the 19th. The 19th of August is fair

16 day in Sanski Most, and that is when they made a promise to us. People

17 were saying that the Manjaca camp would be dissolved and that they'd send

18 buses to drive us away. They did not come on the 6th.

19 On the 29th of August, though, prisoners came from the

20 municipality of Sanski Most, those who had been taken prisoner.

21 Q. All right. But then on the basis of this, what was part of the

22 decision that pertains to the 6th of August is incorrect.

23 A. Did I say that?

24 Q. But you were an eyewitness. You said on the 6th.

25 A. I'm telling you what I know, because the 19th of August was the

Page 30019

1 day when the fair was held in Sanski Most. In the evening, these buses

2 came and we did not know how many of them were there or anything.

3 Q. All right. Just tell me one thing: For how long did you keep

4 this diary? From which date until which date? Can that be established?

5 A. At this moment, I'm telling you I kept a diary until sometime in

6 the end of August.

7 Your Honours, I'll explain this. I started writing this diary in

8 this very small writing pad, and that is where I recorded the events in

9 Sanski Most, and there is the date on the back too. And then when I came

10 to Cologne in Germany, I went for Christmas, around Christmastime, and we

11 had nothing to do, so I took this diary and I started writing. I started

12 writing from the village of Ravno onwards, to the best of my memory. And

13 I wrote until the end of August. When I left the barracks in Cologne, I

14 got a job and I had no more time to write in my notebooks.

15 Q. So you wrote that in Cologne?

16 A. Yes, this was written in Cologne, from Christmas 1992 until the

17 end of January, approximately, 1993.

18 Q. Thank you for that explanation, in Zulic. On page 3, paragraph 1,

19 you say that the Muslims and Croats who refused to go to the front line

20 were dismissed from their jobs. Is that right?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Do you know, for example, that the factory called Splonum [phoen]

23 - I assume that is a brick factory - worked at full capacity and that

24 nobody was dismissed. As a matter of fact, in the autumn of 1991 there

25 were many more Muslims employed there rather than Serbs.

Page 30020

1 A. Well, people who were in management positions were dismissed, but

2 the Muslims who were manual labourers were kept there in order to work.

3 But the managers were dismissed. For example, who was a reserve captain

4 or who was a reserve NCO or a reserve officer who did not want to go to

5 Croatia, to the front line, they were dismissed. For example, Ramo Nalic

6 went on working. He went to Croatia. Ahmed Alic also went on working but

7 he went to the front line in Croatia.

8 Q. All right. Is it correct that in this factory in the autumn of

9 1991 there were more Muslims employed than Serbs?

10 A. Well, I'm telling you it is correct, but they were not in

11 management positions or people who were reserve officers or

12 non-commissioned officers and who did not want to go to the front line

13 were dismissed. And other people were taken in who were not officers or

14 NCOs. That's the way it was.

15 And also at the mine, there were more Muslims working there than

16 Serbs. However, all of those who were officers were dismissed, for the

17 most part only because they were Muslims who did not want to go to the

18 front line in Croatia.

19 Q. Very well. On page 6, paragraph 3, you say that radio Sana on the

20 26th of May, 1992, called on members of the Green Berets, even by name, to

21 hand over their weapons. Is this correct?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And you also know all these names? Did you remember them from the

24 radio broadcast or are they names that are familiar to you?

25 A. They're names that are familiar to me.

Page 30021

1 Q. And they were members of the Green Berets?

2 A. No, they weren't. And they didn't even have weapons. Let me tell

3 you, Your Honours, Nihad Kljucanain's name, from the village of Trnovo,

4 was read out. He was to bring back a gun from Trnovo. This gun belonged

5 to the mosque, and do you know how big it was? The man brought it to the

6 police station on his bicycle. And this man ended up in Manjaca. He

7 could put it on his bicycle because it was used -- it was a bronze cannon

8 which could be filled with gunpowder and lighted with a fuse, and this was

9 to announce the end of Bajram, the Muslim holiday.

10 JUDGE MAY: You've already had an additional seven minutes,

11 Mr. Milosevic, above the time you should have had. You can have another

12 five. That will give you approximately an hour and a half to

13 cross-examine this witness, and that's more than enough.

14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well.

15 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

16 Q. You say, they read out names. I was referring to your statement.

17 They read out names over radio Sana, members of the Green Berets, that is.

18 Do you know that in 1991 the Patriotic League had 103 municipal staffs in

19 106 municipalities? That was the number that existed in

20 Bosnia-Herzegovina at the time, and Sefer Halilovic mentions this in his

21 book.

22 A. Your Honours, I did not read Sefer Halilovic's books. I haven't

23 read them. And secondly, I'm really not aware of this. I don't know that

24 the Patriotic League existed in Sanski Most.

25 Q. Very well. As you say, there were no Green Berets, who, on the

Page 30022

1 27th of May, 1992, attacked the units of the army of Republika Srpska in

2 the village of Hrustovo?

3 A. Hrustovo and Sanski Most are 15 kilometres apart, Mr. Milosevic.

4 Q. Do you know who attacked them?

5 A. The local villagers. In fact, they didn't attack them; I have to

6 clarify this. The Yugoslav army blocked the village of Hrustovo,

7 Vrhpolje, Kljevci, and they set out to kill civilians in these villages,

8 but the local people did not hand over their weapons. Nobody was killed

9 in the army, as far as I know, because the civilians who were armed and

10 the civilian population, the women and children, withdrew to a wood called

11 Golaja, and this is just what I heard. I didn't see this.

12 The wood of Golaja is three kilometres away from Vrhpolje and from

13 Hrustovo, but they entered the villages because they knew that some

14 civilians, some of whom were armed, had withdrawn into the wood. That's

15 what I heard.

16 Q. Very well. So you don't know who attacked the units of Republika

17 Srpska in Hrustovo. You don't even know about this attack; is this

18 correct?

19 A. As far as I know, no one was killed, but I can't tell you what

20 happened there because I wasn't there. This was 17 kilometres away. I

21 wasn't there, I can't answer your question. I know that nobody was killed

22 because had someone been killed, I have to tell you, Your Honours, I have

23 to clarify this, the Serbs said on the radio if a single Serb soldier is

24 killed, a hundred civilians will be shot. That's what they said on the

25 radio. Because Dragan, who was a radio journalist, he commented on every

Page 30023

1 battle as if it was a football game. When there was an attack on Sanski

2 Most - I'm going backwards in time now - he said the Green Berets, the TO,

3 they're attacking here, they're attacking there. He mentioned officers by

4 name, saying who was shooting, from which firearm, from where, from which

5 unit, which battery. And we listened to this when the attack began. We

6 had to listen to the radio.

7 Q. Very well, Mr. Zulic. You say he commented on this as if it was a

8 football game, reporting from where the Green Berets were attacking.

9 A. Correct.

10 Q. So were they the Green Berets or not?

11 A. I'm referring to Mahala now. So wherever they said where the

12 Green Berets were attacking, for example in the village of Skutsani Vakuf

13 [phoen], the Green Berets were attacking, that's what they said. And we

14 knew right away that that village would be attacked. Or Trnovo, for

15 example, we knew the village would be attacked and burnt down, because

16 when they were going to burn down Trnovo, they said there were Green

17 Berets there. And then they brought in guns, tanks, and the whole village

18 was razed to the ground. In 1995, there was not a stone left standing in

19 that village.

20 Q. Very well. So were there attacks by the Green Berets or not? Was

21 this journalist lying when he was commenting on these battles or did the

22 things he was talking about actually happen?

23 A. No, this was not true.

24 Q. Very well. And who attacked the units of the army of Republika

25 Srpska near Vrhpolje on the 29th of May?

Page 30024

1 A. First of all, I've already said that nobody attacked them. It was

2 they who attacked. Not units of the Serbian army but units of the JNA.

3 Not Serbian. Don't get this mixed up. The Serbian army operated after

4 the JNA had done its work, because the JNA had a five-pointed star, and

5 the paramilitary units later on looted.

6 Q. Very well. At the time you're speaking of, the army of Republika

7 Srpska had already been established, which is why I'm asking you about

8 attacks on the army.

9 A. Your Honours, then they probably forgot to take off their

10 five-pointed stars.

11 Q. Well, maybe they didn't want to take them off.

12 A. Well, I can't tell you about that. You have to ask them about it.

13 Q. Very well. Mr. Zulic, we won't go into that, but you said that

14 somebody said on the radio that --

15 JUDGE MAY: This must be your last question. You've already gone

16 over the time.

17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May, I think it's quite clear

18 that if I'm questioning a witness who says that both his statements are

19 not true, and this is the basis for my examination, I can't examine him.

20 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

21 Q. It's well known from the Second World War that when the Germans

22 actually shot a hundred hostages for one soldier who was killed, how can

23 you ascribe this to the army of Republika Srpska or to the Serbs?

24 JUDGE MAY: That's not a proper question for the witness. That's

25 a purely argumentative point. No doubt if you want, you can make that

Page 30025

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12 Blank pages inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts. Pages 30025 to 30038.

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

Page 30039

1 point to us in argument if it has any significance, but it's pure

2 argument. It's not a proper question.

3 Yes, Mr. Kay.

4 Questioned by Mr. Kay:

5 Q. Mr. Zulic, I'm going to ask you questions now about something that

6 is in your transcript of your evidence from the previous time you gave

7 evidence, your diary, and your statement that you made on the 14th of

8 June, 2001, and it concerns the incident that happened when men had their

9 throats slit. Do you understand? I'll ask you questions about each

10 document in sequence, all right?

11 If we just turn to the transcript now, at page 6908 in Exhibit

12 609, tab 1.

13 MR. KAY: I don't think there's any need to put it before the

14 witness because it will probably take too long in the sense of it.

15 You described when you gave evidence in the trial on the 17th of

16 June 2002, that the men had their throats slit, and then at a point when

17 you were about to have your throat slit - I'm looking now at page 6910 - a

18 voice you recognised said, "Simo, leave him alone." And that was a man

19 called Rasula. And then a man came up to you and put a pistol in your

20 mouth, and another man put a pistol to your head, and you thought the

21 pistol was fired.

22 Now, that evidence that you gave in the trial last year, was that

23 an accurate account of what happened to you when you were describing the

24 men having their throats slit by the grave?

25 A. First of all this, was not on the 14th but on the 22nd of June. I

Page 30040

1 spoke from memory. It's true that the gun was pushed into my mouth, and

2 Your Honours, these teeth here are not my own, my front teeth. My teeth

3 were broken. And they said they would baptise me. And then I recognised

4 the name of -- the voice of a man who said they should let me go. I didn't

5 say what Gojko Macura said to me, for example. I didn't say that because

6 nobody asked me. Macura, that is Gojko Macura, also said that they had to

7 leave me alone because they had to question me about weapons. I am simply

8 adding this to what I said then. Because it will never be a pleasure for

9 me to read my own diaries.

10 JUDGE MAY: Just clarify one matter: Simo, who is referred to,

11 there is a Simo Simetic. It appears that it may be him that the men were

12 referring to, when they said, "Simo, leave him alone." Can you help us

13 with that, Mr. Zulic? Who is Simo in this context?

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That Simo was a man who was a

15 butcher. He was psychologically unbalanced even before the war. Even

16 before the war he was not a stable personality.

17 JUDGE MAY: That's not Rasula, that's Simetic. Yes.

18 MR. KAY:

19 Q. Let us now turn to the diary which is in tab 3 of Exhibit 609, and

20 I'm going to look here at page 7 in the English of the diary. And in that

21 diary you describe about going to the place where you're given a hoe, and

22 then you describe: "Macura put a pistol in my mouth." I'm looking at the

23 sixth line down in English. "And Maunic against my forehead." Then a few

24 lines further on you describe a shot, and then you go on to describe in

25 the next paragraph, still on page 7, that Macura jerked the pistol out of

Page 30041

1 your mouth, knocking your teeth loose. And then you go on further on that

2 page, about two-thirds of the way down, that you realised the slaughter

3 had begun because you heard a cry and a gurgling noise and a thud. And

4 you describe Simo and the slitting of the throats. And then a voice said

5 - and I'm turning now at the top of page 8 in the English -

6 "Enough." And you go on to say about the eighth line down: "Enough for

7 today." And you go on to say that something hit you in the back and you

8 thought your turn had come, and you turned round, but you were taken away.

9 Now, that order of events in your diary has, at the beginning, a

10 pistol being put in your mouth and a throat being slit rather than what

11 was said on the transcript of the throat slitting first and then the

12 pistol being put in your mouth. Which is the correct order of events?

13 A. When I'm responding to questions today, I may not be able to cover

14 everything that's in my diary, because I haven't read my transcript. I

15 tried to be as brief as possible when I was making my statements, and I

16 tried to avoid pain as much as possible because you're taking me through

17 the same thing that I experienced then, making me relive the experience.

18 It's my duty to answer you. If I read the diary and my statement which

19 you mentioned to me, I would probably -- if I had read this, I would

20 probably have corrected it, but after writing my diary, I never reread it

21 again, so that it's quite possibly -- it's quite possible that I recounted

22 the events in the opposite sequence. I allow that.

23 Q. Let's now then look at your statement on the 14th of June, 2001.

24 And if we turn to page 10 of that statement, we deal with the same

25 incident. In the second paragraph of the English version at page 10, you

Page 30042

1 said: "They gave me a hoe," and you had to dig your own grave. And in

2 the next paragraph you describe digging, and then in the second to last

3 paragraph, which begins, "When I finished digging the hole, I had to stand

4 up in front of the hole facing it." You heard screaming and shouting, and

5 then you described Simo Simetic, the butcher, slitting the throats of the

6 men by the grave.

7 And you go on to say, "When it was my turn, he put his knife under

8 my chin and held it there. He was moving it a little bit in order to cut

9 my skin. I began to bleed." And then you describe Macura coming up to

10 you, forcing open your mouth, putting the gun inside, and pulling it out

11 and breaking your teeth. And then he put his gun to your forehead, and he

12 shot a bullet through your hair.

13 This is another different account of the same incident. When you

14 described making earlier statements, to Mr. Milosevic's first questions,

15 you indicated that this statement was false. Why have you given different

16 versions of this incident in the transcript, the diary, and your

17 statement?

18 A. First of all, I didn't say that the transcript from the trial was

19 a false statement, or this one. What I said was that I gave our police

20 those statements. I didn't say that the transcript from the trial and

21 this statement were false. I said that it was possible that I had said

22 something - how shall I put this? - because I did not reread my diary.

23 When you make a statement after ten years have elapsed, it cannot be a

24 hundred per cent correct because it's very different when ten or 11 years

25 have elapsed.

Page 30043

1 Today when I talk about it, I will certainly not remember many

2 details of what I lived through. That's the only difference, Your

3 Honours. Because a person who goes through something like this loses his

4 concentration very quickly, and you start trembling. You simply -- simply

5 -- you can't concentrate. I can no longer concentrate because he tried to

6 make me relive what I had gone through.

7 Q. Was it correct of you to have said in your statement to the

8 Prosecution that your throat was bleeding because the knife had been drawn

9 across your throat?

10 A. Your Honours, would you please close this session and I will show

11 the gentleman some things that are still visible today.

12 JUDGE MAY: We will accept that they are visible.

13 Mr. Kay, I don't think we can take this very much further.

14 MR. KAY: I have no further questions, Your Honour. Perhaps it

15 should be the case, though, that the statement of the 14th of June should

16 be exhibited as a supplementary part of the 609, as well as the other

17 statement to the Bosnian police.

18 JUDGE MAY: Yes. We will do that.

19 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honour, it will be added to tab 12 of

20 Prosecution Exhibit 609.

21 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Agha.

22 MR. AGHA: Thank you, Your Honours.

23 Re-examined by Mr. Agha:

24 Q. Mr. Zulic, I would just like to ask you a couple of questions just

25 to clarify some confusion which may have arisen regarding the various

Page 30044

1 statements which you gave.

2 Now, they've been exhibited at tab 12. Can I kindly ask you to

3 look at the statement which you gave to the Bosnian police, which I

4 believe is already before you. Now, that is the statement which --

5 MR. AGHA: And have Your Honours got this one?

6 JUDGE MAY: We've got a copy, I believe.

7 MR. AGHA:

8 Q. This is a statement which you earlier said was wrong.

9 JUDGE MAY: Yes.

10 MR. AGHA:

11 Q. Now, at the beginning of the session I showed you a piece of paper

12 which has been exhibited at the back - if we could kindly also show the

13 witness this - showing two corrections which you made regarding the fact

14 that you were examined by the Red Cross rather than a doctor and that you

15 were beaten in stables rather than a room.

16 Now, apart from those two corrections, is, generally speaking,

17 your statement before you otherwise correct? Taking into account it might

18 not contain everything which you experienced which you've told us you

19 didn't cover.

20 A. A small part is correct. I wasn't examined by these doctors but

21 by a doctor from the International Red Cross, and you can check this

22 because I have my camp card and there's a number on it, and you can check

23 this in Geneva, that I was examined by that doctor.

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 30045

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 JUDGE MAY: Just go into private session.

6 [Private session]

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 30046

1 (redacted)

2 [Open session]

3 THE REGISTRAR: We're now in open session.

4 MR. AGHA:

5 Q. Now, is this statement correct or is it incorrect? Because there

6 seems to be some confusion. That statement which you're now looking at,.

7 MR. KAY: And this, Your Honours, is the one that he gave to the

8 ICTY on the 14th of June, 2001.

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Do I have to read it all?

10 Q. No, no. All I'm asking you is, in essence, that statement there

11 in general a correct statement?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. That's all I wanted to clarify on the statements, because there

14 seems to be some misunderstanding.

15 Now --

16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May.

17 JUDGE MAY: No. What is it, Mr. Milosevic? We really need to get

18 on with this case.

19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I have an objection. The witness

20 asked whether he had to read it all or not so that he could say whether it

21 was correct.

22 JUDGE MAY: Of course he doesn't have to waste time reading it

23 all. He asked -- answered that it was generally correct. Now, let us get

24 on with this.

25 MR. AGHA:

Page 30047

1 Q. Just moving away from the question of your statements now. You

2 mentioned in your answers to the accused, and you were very clear about

3 this, is that the Serb people fled, they were not expelled from Sanski

4 Most. In which year was this that they fled?

5 A. 1995.

6 Q. And why did they flee?

7 A. Well, there was the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina which liberated

8 Kljuc-Petrovac, and so they fled together with their soldiers, they left

9 with their military. Why they left, I don't know.

10 Q. Was it an armed fight or was it against civilian people?

11 A. From Sanski Most, I'm saying about civilians, that they fled. The

12 civilians fled from Sanski Most. At the time, there was no fighting

13 between the armies in Sanski Most. From what I heard, because I wasn't

14 there at the time, there was Seselj's men, Arkan's men. I heard they had

15 headquarters in the local community house of the local commune of

16 Pobrijezje. And when Kljuc and Petrovac were liberated by the Muslim army

17 of Bosnia and Herzegovina which arrived to Palanka, the civilians pulled

18 out.

19 Q. Mr. Zulic, what crimes, if any, were Arkan's men committing in

20 Sanski Most in 1995, who you just mentioned pulled out or fled?

21 A. I wasn't there, but I know that 18 people were taken away from my

22 village by Arkan's men with the help of Pero Gavran who told them which

23 houses were Serb and which houses were Muslim. They came into the

24 village, picked up those people from their homes, and executed them

25 somewhere between Sehovci and Sasina. These people were not only from

Page 30048

1 Pobrijezje but from surrounding villages like Sasina. They needed some

2 people for labour tasks, and they later executed the men after releasing

3 women and children. They later transported women and children on to

4 Travnik.

5 Q. Thank you, Mr. Zulic.

6 MR. AGHA: No further questions. That completes the evidence in

7 chief.

8 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Zulic, that concludes your evidence. I'm sorry,

9 there's a question.

10 Questioned by the Court:

11 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Zulic, when the accused asked the question in the

12 first part, he asked about whether you were telling the truth when you

13 made the two statements, one to the Bosnian police and one to the ICTY

14 investigators. I'm looking at the transcript. I'll quote the question:

15 "Q. Were you telling the truth in both statements?"

16 You said:

17 "A. No.

18 "Q. In which statement did you tell the truth and which

19 didn't you?"

20 And your answer:

21 "A. I didn't tell the truth in any of them."

22 And you state the reasons in private session, and during which you

23 said that you didn't tell the truth to The Hague investigators.

24 Is it a mistake or could you clarify this matter to us.

25 A. I think that it must be a mistake, because I told the truth to the

Page 30049

1 investigators of the ICTY, but I gave two other statements to our police

2 force. But I can't say it any more in public.

3 JUDGE KWON: That's enough --

4 A. That's why it seems -- that's why it may appear that I did not

5 tell the truth in either of the statements I gave to our police.

6 JUDGE KWON: And what is incorrect is corrected by your addendum

7 to the ICTY attorneys; is that right?

8 A. Yes.

9 JUDGE KWON: Yes. Thank you.

10 JUDGE MAY: That concludes your evidence, Mr. Zulic. As I said,

11 thank you for coming to the Tribunal to give your evidence. You are now

12 free to leave.

13 [The witness withdrew]

14 MR. AGHA: Your Honour, I'm sorry to interrupt but there is

15 actually a matter that I didn't deal with and Ms. Wee has kindly brought

16 to my attention, and that is that the handwritten diaries were all

17 disclosed on the 1st of June, 2002, so they ought to have been in the

18 accused's possession. I apologise for not having dealt with that earlier.

19 JUDGE MAY: Thank you. We'll deal with the next witness.

20 Yes, Mr. Saxon.

21 MR. SAXON: Good morning, Your Honours. The Prosecution will call

22 Witness B-1021.

23 JUDGE MAY: Is there a matter you have to raise first or do I have

24 the wrong witness?

25 MR. SAXON: There is a point of clarification, Your Honour, thank

Page 30050

1 you, and if possible, could we please go into private session because it

2 deals with witness protective measures.

3 [Private session]

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 30051

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 [Open session]

23 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session.

24 JUDGE MAY: Yes. The next witness will be closed session. Yes.

25 [Closed session]

Page 30052

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12 Pages 30052 to 30094 redacted closed session.

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.54 p.m.,

24 to be reconvened on Thursday, the 4th day of

25 December, 2003, at 9.00 a.m.