Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 30213

1 Wednesday, 10 December 2003

2 [Open session]

3 [The witness entered court]

4 [The accused entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 9.05 a.m.

6 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Let the witness take the declaration.

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

8 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

9 JUDGE MAY: Yes. If you'd like to take a seat.

10 WITNESS: WITNESS B-1011

11 [Witness answered through interpreter]

12 JUDGE MAY: We've just been handed the clip of documents.

13 Mr. Agha, the sittings today -- let me deal with this formally at the

14 outset. It may well be that we will have the courtroom this afternoon,

15 which will enable us to sit into the afternoon. I'm going to get a

16 message. Just one moment. We'll confer.

17 [Trial Chamber confers]

18 JUDGE MAY: What we propose is this: That we will sit in the

19 afternoon. We'll sit for the first session for an hour and a half, we

20 will break for half an hour, we will then have another session of an hour

21 and a half, we will break then for the lunch break for one hour and a

22 half, and then we'll sit in the afternoon from 2 to 3.30, and that way we

23 can accommodate the work.

24 Yes, Mr. Kay.

25 MR. KAY: As I heard it was a proposal, can I just make an

Page 30214

1 observation, because I have to comply with various administrative

2 procedures within the Tribunal, and my attendance here was arranged so

3 that I left Holland this afternoon in the afternoon, leaving this building

4 at 2.15, which helps with the economy of the case.

5 If any legal argument on the intercepts could be heard this

6 morning rather than this afternoon, that would assist everyone greatly.

7 JUDGE MAY: Yes. We'll accommodate that.

8 MR. KAY: Thank you.

9 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Nice, we'll have the legal argument, since you

10 might be involved in it, then in the second session, I should think.

11 MR. NICE: Very well.

12 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Agha.

13 MR. AGHA: Yes, Your Honour. This witness is a 92 bis witness, so

14 I kindly ask that a pseudonym sheet be placed before him.

15 Examined by Mr. Agha:

16 Q. Witness, could you please confirm that is your name on that sheet

17 and that you signed and dated it, please.

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Thank you. And, Witness, you also gave a statement before the

20 Tribunal --

21 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Agha, we need, for the record formally, the

22 witness's pseudonym for the record.

23 MR. AGHA: Your Honour, the Witness is B-1011.

24 JUDGE MAY: Yes. If you would go on.

25 MR. AGHA:

Page 30215

1 Q. Witness, you gave a statement before the Tribunal in September of

2 1998, which was certified by the Registry on 18 November 2001; is that

3 correct?

4 A. It is.

5 MR. AGHA: Can his bis package be kindly placed before the

6 witness.

7 Q. Witness, can you please confirm that that is in fact your

8 statement signed by you.

9 A. It is.

10 MR. AGHA: And may I kindly ask for that 92 bis package to be

11 exhibited if it's not already been so already.

12 THE REGISTRAR: 614, Your Honour, under seal.

13 MR. AGHA: And could we also please have an exhibit number for the

14 pseudonym sheet, if that's possible.

15 JUDGE MAY: Yes. It can be included in the package.

16 MR. AGHA: Thank you, Your Honour.

17 As I mentioned earlier, Your Honours, this witness is a 92 bis

18 witness from Brcko municipality, and I shall briefly read out a summary of

19 his evidence.

20 Prior to the war, the witness was neither a member of the SDS or

21 SDA and had no political affiliation.

22 Between the night of the 30th of April and 1st of May, the bridges

23 were blown up in the Brcko area, and the various Serb paramilitary groups

24 started to carry out an offensive on Brcko.

25 The witness took refuge in his sister's cellar, and after Brcko

Page 30216

1 was taken by the Serbian forces, they came round the various houses. The

2 witness was taken out of the cellar with the others he was hiding with and

3 they were separated on the basis of ethnicity.

4 The witness and his group were marched to the SUP building where

5 he came across a JNA captain who ordered them to be taken to the Posavina

6 Hotel. The man who had carried out the separation was known as Dragan,

7 with an English-sounding accent and was in charge of the Serb forces who

8 had taken him out of the house and taken him to the hotel.

9 At the hotel, he saw four dead bodies out of the window, all of

10 which had been piled on top of each other and were wearing civilian

11 clothes. They looked as if they had been recently killed.

12 In the hotel, a local man called Goran Jelisic then entered the

13 room with a lady called Monika. Jelisic then started beating up a man

14 with water bottles. There were about 25 men detained in the room, and

15 they were soon shifted to the hotel terrace. They were made to stand up

16 in two lines and Jelisic began to beat two of the men. An older man was

17 then thrown amongst the group and was also being beaten. When he

18 complained, he was taken out of the group and shot. A Croat amongst the

19 group was released because he was in the same house as the witness,

20 whereupon on the basis of being in the same house the witness and another

21 Muslim was able to secure his release. He was sent to a park.

22 Whilst he was in the park, the witness was about 50 metres away,

23 and he turned instinctively, and he saw Jelisic standing there with a

24 handgun, gunfire burst, and bodies falling. He was then shepherded to the

25 SUP building where he was told not to look at anything, and he heard five

Page 30217

1 or six more shots. After answering a few questions, the witness was

2 released. A few months later, he was arrested and taken to the Batkovic

3 camp.

4 Now, that is the essence of the witness's evidence, and if I may,

5 with the Court's permission, ask the witness a few questions orally.

6 JUDGE MAY: Yes.

7 MR. AGHA:

8 Q. Witness, if you can please answer these questions I ask you.

9 Prior to the attack on Brcko, can you tell the Chamber whether anyone had

10 been arming, any group had been arming the local population?

11 A. As far as Serbs are concerned, yes, they were armed. That much I

12 know. As for the rest of the population, individual people procured

13 weapons if they could afford it.

14 Q. [Previous translation continues]... group or body?

15 A. They got weapons directly from the JNA.

16 Q. Now, when the Serb paramilitary forces had taken over Brcko, where

17 did they stay?

18 A. Paramilitary forces in Brcko that had arrived in mid-April 1992

19 had their headquarters within the JNA garrison.

20 Q. Now, while they were staying there, were there JNA officers or

21 soldiers there or was it empty?

22 A. The command staff of the JNA was together with them in the same

23 rooms on the same premises of the garrison.

24 Q. Were these regular JNA soldiers or reservists?

25 A. Active-duty commanding officers were in the garrison in Brcko.

Page 30218

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Page 30219

1 Q. And how do you know this, Witness?

2 A. I passed by every day. I live in the neighbourhood, and I had

3 occasion to see it with my own eyes.

4 Q. Now, I want to ask you about a different person, a person you

5 mention as Dragan in your statement. Where did he and his men come from?

6 Were they local?

7 A. No. Captain Dragan, whom I recognised and he himself introduced

8 himself as Captain Dragan, had come from the direction of Bijeljina,

9 accompanied by all those who were with him.

10 Q. Now, I want to ask you about your treatment in Batkovic. Were you

11 treated well?

12 A. Well, it all depended on individual people, on individual

13 prisoners, and on those who were on duty and in charge of taking people

14 out to be beaten. As for me personally, I have permanent scars that are

15 visible, and I can say again that I was lucky, actually, because I was

16 among those who were beaten the least.

17 Q. [Previous translation continues]... just like to place a

18 picture on your monitor and ask if you can identify the person in the

19 picture.

20 MR. AGHA: And for the Chamber, this has been previously tendered

21 as an exhibit, which is 347, tab 7.5.

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

23 MR. AGHA:

24 Q. Do you recognise who that is? Could you tell the Chamber,

25 please.

Page 30220

1 A. Yes. That is Captain Dragan precisely.

2 Q. And is that the same Dragan you saw in Brcko?

3 A. Yes. Yes.

4 MR. AGHA: That would conclude the evidence in chief, Your Honour.

5 JUDGE MAY: Thank you. Yes, Mr. Milosevic.

6 Cross-examined by Mr. Milosevic:

7 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. 1011, in paragraph 3 of your statement, you

8 state that the conflict in Brcko began in the night of the 30th of April;

9 is that correct?

10 A. That's when the offensive began to take over the town.

11 Q. What was happening before that when you say the offensive began on

12 that night to take the town?

13 A. I want to explain exactly how it began. In the middle of the

14 month of April, a session of the Municipal Assembly of our town was

15 convened, attended also by some foreign delegates. I think they were from

16 Sweden. That session took place in the cultural hall of Brcko.

17 An explicit demand was made then by the Serb side, headed by

18 Dr. Beli, to divide the town. The advice of the foreign observers was to

19 refrain from doing that and to try instead to find some common language.

20 The session was postponed by 20 days. A new session was supposed to take

21 place on the first workday after the May holidays.

22 All schools in town stopped working; children were relieved of

23 school. And in the meantime, I don't know whether it was from Serbia or

24 from Belgrade that some military police came in order to introduce some

25 order into the town, quote unquote, to prevent incidents, and among them

Page 30221

1 was this captain who arrived. And indeed he started immediate action to

2 replace all non-Serbs from their managerial and senior positions. He was

3 accompanied by people and troops with special training and under full

4 military gear, including camouflage uniforms, bulletproof vests. They

5 wore automatic rifles in front, and on their backs they had one to two

6 hand-held rocket launchers, Zoljas. And these men toured the town.

7 That's what I can say about the beginnings. The incidents that

8 had begun to occur in the town after that first session in the middle of

9 April until the time when paramilitary formations entered our town

10 officially on the 4th of May and occupied the town up to the Brka river

11 which borders our town.

12 Q. All right, Witness 1011. Did any incidents happen? Was anybody

13 injured? Until then, was that captain the same Captain Dragan you

14 mentioned or some other captain?

15 A. No. I saw Captain Dragan on the 4th and 5th of May.

16 Q. So this one was another captain?

17 A. Yes. This man wore a regular military uniform, and he even spoke

18 on the local television.

19 Q. What did he say on local television?

20 A. He said that he had been sent to our town to prevent conflicts.

21 Q. So he said on local television that the JNA was there to prevent

22 incidents in view of the atmosphere reigning in Brcko?

23 A. Yes. Due to the atmosphere that began to prevail in town after

24 the Serb side demanded that the town be divided.

25 Q. So after that session of the Assembly which you say was attended

Page 30222

1 by Swedes as well, what was the situation in Brcko?

2 A. Normal.

3 Q. So there were no incidents, a session of the Assembly was held

4 sometime in April; right?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And at that session there happened the first incident with a

7 demand to divide the town?

8 A. Yes. The Serbs, and I can't mention -- I can't remember the name

9 of the man who made the demand, I think it was Dr. Beli, who was a doctor,

10 made the demand to divide the town.

11 Q. And what was his position in the Assembly?

12 A. He was the president of the Serb party.

13 Q. And who was the president of the Assembly?

14 A. Mr. Ramic.

15 Q. And who is vice-president and president of the executive council

16 of the Assembly?

17 A. To tell you the truth, I'm not quite sure and I wouldn't like to

18 say anything because I can't say it with any certainty.

19 Q. But do you have an explanation as to why this Dr. Beli, who is

20 president of the party, wanted the town divided? What did he give as an

21 explanation?

22 A. He didn't say anything. It was simply the position of the Serb

23 side that the town should be divided. I cannot tell you specifically what

24 he wanted to achieve by that.

25 Q. Very well. Let us not dwell on it any further then. Since you

Page 30223

1 claim that this Serb offensive ended on the 4th of May --

2 A. No. It officially began on the 4th of May and the town was taken

3 over, occupied, up to the Brka River which divides the left and the right

4 side of the town.

5 Q. I'm asking you because I can't really understand from your

6 statements. You say that the war in Brcko began in the night of the 30th

7 of April, and now you say that it began on the 4th of May. You say

8 actually in your statement that it was on the night of the 31st of April.

9 The 31st of April does not exist. I suppose you mean the 30th of April.

10 A. I will explain this as well now. The bridges were blown up during

11 the night. It was just the first sign that the session that was supposed

12 to take place after the May holidays would not take place.

13 Q. I don't understand this. What did the bridges have to do with the

14 session?

15 A. To me, it was a clear sign that the session had better not take

16 place.

17 Q. Who blew the bridges up?

18 A. It's sad, but I have to say it. It's a man who had come from

19 Serbia some 15 years earlier, got married and lived there, and he is still

20 there today. He's one of the ministers in Municipal Assembly of Brcko.

21 Q. But you mean that he was a resident of Brcko?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. It doesn't matter where he had come from. You say that he had

24 lived in Brcko for 15 years and he was a resident of that town.

25 A. Yes.

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Page 30225

1 Q. Why did he blow up the bridges? Which bridges?

2 A. There are two bridges in Brcko across the Sava River linking

3 Bosnia with Croatia. One is a railroad bridge exclusively, and the other

4 bridge is both a freight and a passenger bridge.

5 Q. Did the Croatian forces make any incursions over those bridges

6 before that?

7 A. Not that I know.

8 Q. Were there any arms deliveries using those bridges from Croatia?

9 A. I stated and I wrote in my statement that I was not involved with

10 any political party, and I did not interfere with politics in any way, and

11 that includes arms deliveries and such things.

12 Q. I believe, Mr. 1011, that you did not interfere with politics.

13 I'm only asking you what you know about this. A politically uninvolved

14 resident of Brcko can know something about it. I'm asking you, what was

15 the reason for blowing up the bridges that connect Bosnia with Croatia?

16 Because you even know who blew them up. You say it was a man who was

17 still -- who is still there occupying an important position.

18 A. Yes, and I'm saying that it's a sad thing that this man who had

19 done such a thing is still there in Brcko. And as for the bridges, before

20 they were destroyed from the Bosnian side had been made useless from the

21 Croatian side, because they are about 800 metres long.

22 Q. I suppose it was not this man from Brcko who made them useless.

23 Who did that?

24 A. The Croats from that side.

25 Q. So those bridges were actually already destroyed?

Page 30226

1 A. Well, they were made useless in terms of transporting freight or

2 passengers. Instead, some kind of pontoon bridge or maybe hanging bridge

3 was made so that only pedestrians could use it.

4 Q. But you say that they were already destroyed by the Croatian side.

5 A. They were made useless.

6 Q. Thank you. I understand that much. Was anyone injured at the

7 time? Did anything else happen? And third, how do you know that this man

8 you are referring to was the one who destroyed those bridges who had --

9 which had already been made useless?

10 A. You mean from our side?

11 Q. Yes. How come that you know the person who allegedly demolished

12 these bridges?

13 A. The person. I found out directly from his colleagues, his

14 partners who helped him carry out this task, this assignment.

15 Q. When did you find that out?

16 A. A couple of years later.

17 Q. So you are testifying to something that you learned about several

18 years after the event you are speaking to in Brcko?

19 A. It's sad that I have to say it, but I'm saying it with deep

20 conviction: I believe the person who recounted it to me told the truth.

21 Q. I do not doubt your deep conviction, but you found that out from

22 somebody who told you about it several years later.

23 A. That is correct.

24 Q. Very well, Mr. 1011. But tell me, since you say the war began in

25 the night of the 31st of April - I suppose it is the 30th of April - and

Page 30227

1 that on the 4th Serb forces occupied a part of Brcko, does it mean that

2 there was some fighting that lasted for four days or is it something that

3 eludes me?

4 A. Let me be brief and clear. On the 4th of May in the morning, as

5 far as I could notice and to the extent to which I moved about at that

6 time, I managed to count 22 people in uniform or, rather, 22 different

7 types of uniforms; active police, reservists, JNA reservists, all sorts of

8 volunteers, and so on. There was shooting too. But people were shooting

9 only in order to reach the area that they wanted to reach as soon as

10 possible. That means that they came to the Brka river which divides the

11 town into the left-hand side and the right-hand side, they tried to

12 advance further, they were stopped there. Because their general interest

13 was to reach the Belgrade-Banja Luka road. That's the only road that goes

14 through Brcko.

15 They were stopped there by various groups that were engaged on

16 their own. They tried to get their families out and to get them away from

17 the gunfire.

18 Q. All right. What were these different groups? Were these some

19 kind of Muslim armed forces? Is that right?

20 A. These were groups consisting of up to five or six people that were

21 organised in that way, and that's how they operated.

22 Q. Wait a second, Mr. 1011. A few minutes ago you said that you saw

23 22 different types of the military. They went to take the other side, and

24 then they were stopped by groups of five or six men?

25 A. Sir, please do not confuse things. I said it very nicely.

Page 30228

1 Twenty-two different types of the military that came to take the town.

2 That's what I saw. And when they tried to cross the Brka river in order

3 to take the other part of town, they were stopped there by these men who

4 usually had hunting weapons only.

5 Q. I understand. So you're trying to say that these 22 different

6 types of the military that were trying to cross the river were stopped by

7 a group of five or six men who had hunting weapons; right? Is that what

8 you're saying, Mr. 1011?

9 A. Let's make this clear. Not all 22 types of the military were

10 crossing the river in order to take this notorious corridor between

11 Belgrade and Banja Luka. These were individual groups with this

12 well-known person from the area around Bijeljina who had come too. That

13 is Goran Jelisic. He headed all the offensives that were launched across

14 the Brka River.

15 Q. All right. And they did not succeed because they were stopped?

16 A. They did not succeed on that day.

17 Q. All right. However, Brcko spreads to the other side of the river

18 too, doesn't it?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. And they did not take the area on the other side of the Brka River

21 because they had been stopped.

22 A. Not on that day. I'm talking specifically about the 4th of May.

23 Q. If they were not stopped on that day, when did they manage to take

24 it?

25 A. A few days later.

Page 30229

1 Q. Oh, a few days later. All right. In paragraph 5, you say that

2 you were arrested in your sister's house together with 30 other persons.

3 A. No. No, not 30 persons.

4 Q. All right.

5 A. Do you need an explanation?

6 Q. No, no, no. There's no need for an explanation. You sought

7 shelter there from combat, in the cellar. Isn't that right?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. What kind of combat was this? Is that the combat involving these

10 people who were on different sides of the Brka River?

11 A. I can explain this to you. These were groups of men who were

12 armed. Specifically in my case, a group came consisting of, say, about 15

13 to 20 men. They came on a fire truck in the street where I was, and

14 different people came out wearing different kinds of uniforms too. They

15 were led by Captain Dragan personally, and they went from one house to the

16 other, and they threw everyone out.

17 The men were separated, all men. In my case, there were about 30

18 of us that were taken out of all these houses, and we were taken to the

19 police station, in front of the police station, rather. It's not even 50

20 metres away from the Hotel Posavina.

21 Q. All right. Mr. 1011, you say that Captain Dragan came to the

22 house.

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. You say that he wore different kinds of -- different kinds of

25 clothing, namely civilian trousers, jeans, and a military jacket and

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Page 30231

1 boots.

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. That's what he was wearing?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. You were just shown his picture now and you said that's what he

6 looked like, but we see that in the photograph he is wearing a uniform.

7 He's not wearing jeans.

8 A. It's not according to the clothes. I recognised him by his face.

9 Q. Oh, by his face.

10 A. Yes. I can even describe what he looks like, how he talks, how he

11 walks. I have a lasting memory of what he looks like.

12 Q. You wrote here -- I mean, I'm trying to save time. You say that

13 he was around 45, that he was thin and tall, that he had short hair, and

14 that he had an English-sounding accent. Is that right?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. So he was tall and thin and about 45 years old?

17 A. Well, approximately. I mean, I didn't look at his ID, but I think

18 that that was his approximate age at that time.

19 Q. In the photograph he wore a cap. Since you established that he

20 had short hair, he probably did not wear a cap then.

21 A. When he came to see us -- or, rather, when he came to see me, he

22 had that cap that we call a jockey cap. It is sort of like a baseball

23 cap. He also wore dark glasses. When he introduced himself, when he said

24 what his name was, he asked us, "Do I look like an American or a

25 gangster?" All of us who there said yes. And he swore at America and

Page 30232

1 Americans, and he threw off his cap and his glasses, and that's how I

2 could see him.

3 Q. Was his hair blonde or dark?

4 A. Well, brownish.

5 Q. All right. Since he testified here, everybody could see first and

6 foremost that he -- his hair is grey. It's not blonde, and it's not dark.

7 Also, he's a short man. He cannot be described as a tall man by any

8 standards, not even medium height.

9 A. You're wrong, sir.

10 Q. All right. Let's proceed. Also, you said that he had an

11 English-sounding accent. Do you speak English?

12 A. No.

13 Q. How can you conclude then that he had probably been in Australia?

14 On what basis do you come to that conclusion? In all fairness, people do

15 speak English in Australia, and perhaps somebody who speaks English really

16 well can distinguish between different accents, including an Australian

17 accent. How did you come to the conclusion that he was from Australia?

18 A. I did not come to this direct conclusion. I assumed that he could

19 have been a member of a special unit or someone who at that time was

20 involved in all sorts of things, even that he was in the Foreign Legion.

21 That was my assumption. And later on, it proved to be true.

22 Q. All right, Mr. 1011. Are you talking about things here that could

23 have been read in the newspapers later about Captain Dragan? He talked

24 about it here. He testified about it here, that he came from Australia,

25 and so on and so forth.

Page 30233

1 Tell me, when you saw him, how could you have concluded that he

2 might have been in the Foreign Legion and that he came from Australia, and

3 most of all that he was tall? That is the last thing that you can claim.

4 A. Please. I know that I'm a person of medium height, and he is

5 taller than I am, and that was my yardstick.

6 As far as his accent is concerned and the way he speaks and

7 whether I noticed that he sounded English or not, I think that you can

8 hear that until the present day. His speech is not clear, he is not very

9 fluent.

10 As for whether I knew him personally, I'm not interested in him as

11 a person at all. I felt no need to see him afterwards. I survived what I

12 survived.

13 Now, what he did before and what he did later is something I don't

14 know, but I do know what he did on that day, on the 4th and even on the

15 5th of May.

16 Q. All right; I didn't ask you about that, what you are claiming that

17 he did. I asked you to tell me on the basis of what you concluded that he

18 was in the Foreign Legion and that he was in Australia -- that he had been

19 in Australia. How could you conclude that when you saw him on the 4th of

20 May?

21 A. I made a statement pertaining to the 4th of May. My assumption

22 was that he had come from somewhere. He came back. Later on, it so

23 turned out. At that moment I did not know it myself until he introduced

24 himself to us. I didn't know who he was and where he was.

25 Q. Did he introduce himself to you that way, that he had come from

Page 30234

1 Australia?

2 A. He personally said that he came from the area of Bor and

3 Majdanpek. That is what he said.

4 Q. Did he say that he came from Australia?

5 A. No.

6 Q. But you concluded that he came from Australia.

7 A. I think that I was quite clear when I talked about this. After

8 some time, I came to know that he had come from Australia.

9 Q. Oh, you learnt about it subsequently. You could have read about

10 it in the newspapers.

11 A. No.

12 Q. Well, how much later did you find out about him coming from

13 Australia?

14 A. If you want me to be very precise, in 1993.

15 Q. So a year later?

16 A. In 1993.

17 Q. You learned about it from the newspapers?

18 A. No.

19 Q. And you gave your statement in 1998?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And now, five years later, you claim that this was Captain Dragan,

22 because here you say that this man's name was Dragan, that he came, et

23 cetera, et cetera. You do not say "Captain Dragan" in the statement. Is

24 that right, Mr. 1011, in your statement of 1998?

25 A. I stated what he said to us and what he said by way of an

Page 30235

1 introduction. No, it is possible that there are some mistakes involved.

2 Q. All right. So five years after you gave your statement, you

3 managed to state that it was Captain Dragan.

4 A. I'm perfectly sure of that.

5 Q. How many times did you see him on television? How many times did

6 you see his picture similar to the one shown to you a moment ago and

7 various other photographs?

8 A. I told you already that I'm not interested in him as a person at

9 all. I have absolutely no problem with him.

10 Q. Very well. If you have absolutely no problem with him and you are

11 not interested in him, then why in 1998, when you were giving your

12 statement, didn't you mention that it was Captain Dragan?

13 A. What do you mean I didn't say so? I said so right away.

14 Q. Well, find that place in your statement.

15 A. Maybe it was an omission made during the typing and printing, but

16 I said word-for-word that Captain Dragan was a person I saw personally

17 with my own eyes on the 4th and the 5th of May. He took me out of my home

18 together with many other people when he was going from house to house.

19 Q. Well, in your statement, you mention only Captain Petrovic, a

20 captain of the JNA.

21 A. Yes. That's the officer who came.

22 Q. Yes. This officer who said on television that he had come to

23 prevent clashes, conflicts, and disturbances.

24 A. Yes. He made his statement on television.

25 Q. That's the only captain you mention in your statement of 1998.

Page 30236

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Page 30237

1 A. He's an active duty officer.

2 Q. You mention also many other names but without mentioning the rank.

3 You mention Dragan only as Dragan, not as a captain.

4 A. That's how he introduced himself.

5 Q. Why didn't you write that in your statement then?

6 A. I didn't write my statement. I didn't type it. Maybe the person

7 who typed it omitted the word "Captain."

8 Q. Very well. Thank you, Mr. 1011. In paragraph 7, you say that in

9 the course of your arrest this man was accompanied by a group of 30 men.

10 A. I'm saying this once again: Not 30. Dragan came with two men and

11 rounded us up. He collected 30 people or so from the street.

12 Q. Please look at paragraph 7 of your statement. In the middle of

13 the paragraph there is a sentence that says: "There was a group of 30 or

14 so other soldiers that was in the area also going to the various houses

15 and rounding people up."

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. "The other soldiers wore different military uniforms and they all

18 had firearms." Tell me if there is some mistake here.

19 A. No, it's perfectly all right. I agree with this.

20 Q. So the people you were talking about were not uniformly dressed.

21 They had different uniforms.

22 A. Yes. It's exactly how I said.

23 Q. Fine.

24 A. Do I need to describe how they were dressed?

25 Q. No thank you. You gave a detailed description already. You said

Page 30238

1 they wore different uniforms. Let us clear one thing up: On the basis of

2 this description that you provided, isn't it crystal clear that those were

3 not members of the JNA? They could have been members of a volunteer unit

4 or some other unit, but people who were not uniformly dressed, who wore

5 all sorts of uniforms, could not have been JNA.

6 A. They were indeed dressed as I described.

7 Q. But tell me, would you say that the reserve force was not part of

8 the JNA?

9 Q. Well, even the reserve force of the JNA wore JNA uniforms. You

10 must know that.

11 A. I know.

12 Q. Even reservists didn't wear civilian clothes mixed with military

13 uniform. Do you know that?

14 A. I don't want to argue with you. All those people, 30 of them or

15 so, wore different uniforms. Not more than two wore the same uniform, and

16 some of them wore even reservists uniforms.

17 Q. You just said that no more than two wore the same uniform. Isn't

18 that the best proof that it couldn't have been the JNA if out of 30 only

19 two wore the same uniform?

20 A. That's your conclusion. My conclusion was that it was the JNA.

21 Q. But you are saying that out of 30 men, only two wore the same

22 uniform.

23 A. That's how they were dressed.

24 Q. Very well. And then they took you to the SUP building in Brcko.

25 A. Some of them did. A group, not all of them.

Page 30239

1 Q. And then when you came to the SUP building, as you say in

2 paragraph 11, Captain Petrovic, an officer of the JNA, came out and asked

3 Dragan why he had brought you to the SUP building. Is that correct?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. And after he went back to the building and came out again about

6 half an hour later, he asked you with a smile whether you wanted a juice

7 or a coffee; correct?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. And he said you were going to the Posavina Hotel.

10 A. That's where they took us.

11 Q. The Posavina Hotel. Who took you there; the same men who brought

12 you to the SUP building?

13 A. No; people who were some sort of security detail around the SUP

14 building.

15 Q. Did they, too, wear different uniforms?

16 A. No. They were uniformly dressed.

17 Q. But they were not JNA soldiers either?

18 A. I don't know what they were. I know how they were dressed, I know

19 how they introduced themselves and who their leader was.

20 Q. How did they introduce themselves and who was their leaders?

21 A. Captain Dragan, and they were his volunteers.

22 Q. In any case, they were not JNA. According to my information,

23 Captain Dragan was never in Brcko.

24 A. That's not true.

25 Q. Very well, but beyond any doubt those were not JNA soldiers.

Page 30240

1 A. Well, those men were not.

2 Q. When you came to the Posavina Hotel you also noticed some armed

3 men wearing dark blue overalls; is that correct?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. And now you claim that these dark blue overalls were actually the

6 uniforms of those Dragan's volunteers?

7 A. Well, that's how they spoke of themselves.

8 Q. They wore these dark blue overalls as uniform?

9 A. Are we talking about soldiers or volunteers?

10 Q. Call them as you like. You say that they wore dark blue overalls,

11 and a moment ago you said they wore all kinds of clothing and no more than

12 two were dressed the same.

13 A. Well, I expected that question. I knew you were going to ask

14 that. Captain Dragan went from house to house arresting people

15 accompanied not by his own men but by other men from other groups and

16 other units. He was not accompanied in my part of town by his own men.

17 Q. All right. You explained it now as you saw fit. But if his

18 volunteers or members of his unit all wore those dark blue uniforms, how

19 do you explain the fact that only their commander did not wear that

20 uniform but wore jeans and military shirt instead? His entire unit wears

21 the same uniform and he wears some sort of casual mixture.

22 A. I don't want to go into their dress code, but I don't know what

23 exactly their objective was; to occupy the town as fast as possible, to

24 loot as much as possible. In any case, his men secured the SUP building

25 and he was accompanied on his rounds by other men.

Page 30241

1 Q. You've told us quite enough for us to make our own conclusions.

2 In paragraph 16, you say that when you were going to the toilet in

3 the hotel, through a window --

4 A. Sorry, not a window, a door.

5 Q. All right, a door. You noticed four dead bodies piled up on top

6 of each other.

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Since they were piled up, I suppose they were brought there from

9 somewhere else.

10 A. No.

11 Q. How was it then?

12 A. Let me be clear: Myself and the group I was in were the third

13 group brought to the hotel that day. Those people must have been from the

14 previous groups, because they were recently killed. The bodies were still

15 bleeding, it was fresh blood. And the rest of the people were being

16 driven towards the garrison and in other directions. Some were taken

17 towards Loncari, which is towards the turn-off for Banja Luka, or to

18 Brdjani, and one group was even taken towards the Rasnjevo village, which

19 is about 30 kilometres away in the direction of Bijeljina.

20 Q. Very well, Mr. 1011. Please bear in mind that I'm asking

21 questions only on the basis of your written statement because you have not

22 testified before. And I'm asking you about these four men. How did you

23 decide that they had been killed in that spot? Is it on the basis of the

24 vapour emanating from the bodies?

25 A. I can say with a clear conscience that they were killed there.

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Page 30243

1 Groups were either taken out of that hotel as a group or perhaps if

2 somebody offered resistance or had a quarrel with those troops, they would

3 be killed.

4 Q. Tell me, it was the 4th of May. It must have been rather warm.

5 Could that have been the cause of that steam, that vapour you noticed?

6 A. What are you talking about?

7 Q. The 4th of May, it must have been warm. There could have been no

8 outward sign, no vapour.

9 A. The temperature of the body is higher than the outside

10 temperature.

11 Q. That is something we can easily establish. So that's what you saw

12 when you saw those four bodies. Why didn't you write it in your

13 statement? Although you said yourself that you didn't write your

14 statement.

15 A. Well, I can't write English if I don't speak it.

16 Q. The statement I'm looking at is in Serbian.

17 A. It's a translation.

18 Q. Did you speak English?

19 A. No, I didn't.

20 Q. You spoke Serbian?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And they were writing in English?

23 A. I suppose they have an interpreter who does the interpreting for

24 them.

25 Q. You say: "While we were detained in the hotel, we were allowed to

Page 30244

1 use the toilet of the hotel. Once when I went to the toilet, I was able

2 to look outside through a door that leads to the yard. I saw four dead

3 bodies piled on top of each other. They were all men wearing civilian

4 clothing."

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. You say: "I was unable to identify a single one of them."

7 A. That's correct.

8 Q. Very well. Could they have been brought from somewhere else after

9 all?

10 A. No.

11 Q. Do you allow for the possibility that those could have been bodies

12 of some Serbian fighters who had been killed in combat because that hotel

13 was under Serb control and they could have brought some of their men who

14 were killed in combat?

15 A. No, by no means.

16 Q. Because you didn't recognise anyone. You say so yourself.

17 A. I could not identify them because they were piled on top of each

18 other, on each other's stomach.

19 Q. I'm only saying that you did not identify anyone, and still you

20 don't allow for the possibility that they had been brought there.

21 A. They were certainly not.

22 Q. Did you hear any shots prior to that?

23 A. In town, where I came from, there was only shooting for the

24 purpose of marking individual positions.

25 Q. Did you hear shooting in town, in the hotel?

Page 30245

1 A. I didn't.

2 Q. If you didn't hear shooting in the hotel and you found those dead

3 bodies there, they could not have been killed at the hotel without being

4 shot, and you didn't hear any shots while there.

5 A. I'm telling you again, I was in the third group that was brought

6 there. Two groups were brought there before us. So it is sufficient to

7 know this to reject any possibility of those bodies being brought there

8 from somewhere else. They were killed there.

9 Q. I suppose that when you came to the hotel you didn't go straight

10 to the toilets. You must have been there awhile before going to the

11 toilet.

12 A. Thirty or 40 minutes.

13 Q. So let's say it was 40 minutes. And in those 40 minutes, you

14 didn't hear any shots. And then when you were passing by a door, you saw

15 those four bodies. They could not have been killed in the hotel in the 40

16 minutes prior because you didn't hear any shots.

17 A. They were not killed in those 40 minutes, but they were killed

18 before us.

19 Q. And they were still bleeding. That means that somebody brought

20 them there.

21 A. That's not true. That's not true.

22 Q. Very well, Mr. 1011. Let's get one thing clear: You didn't hear

23 shots while you were at the hotel, and you were there for at least 40

24 minutes before seeing those bodies.

25 A. Yes. Around 40 minutes, not more.

Page 30246

1 Q. Fine. And then you say in paragraph 17 that: "Goran Jelisic came

2 at that point into the hotel accompanied by another resident of Brcko, a

3 woman named Monika."

4 A. Correct.

5 Q. They were both local Serbs?

6 A. Monika was a local. She was born and lived there. Goran Jelisic

7 was not from Brcko. He had come from Bijeljina some days prior.

8 Q. He was tried here. We know where he came from. So it is not in

9 dispute. His origin is not in dispute. So both of them were from that

10 area; isn't that right?

11 A. Well, they were from Bosnia. Towns 50 kilometres away,

12 approximately.

13 Q. All right. So although they were armed like the three soldiers

14 who came with them, they wore different uniforms too. They were wearing

15 parts of different uniforms; is that right?

16 A. That was characteristic anyway for most of these people who were

17 in Brcko on that day.

18 Q. All right. That means that Jelisic or this Monika or the other

19 persons who were present or the persons who came with them were not

20 members of the JNA. Isn't that right?

21 A. Probably not.

22 Q. All right. And you claim that Jelisic was very upset because some

23 of his friends had been killed in the fighting that took place in Brcko.

24 A. I cannot claim that, that they were killed, but they were stopped.

25 They were not allowed to reach the Brcko hospital, and the road from the

Page 30247

1 hospital towards Banja Luka would have been free then. That is

2 Belgrade-Bijeljina-Banja Luka, the road that goes only through Brcko.

3 Q. Now you say that you cannot say whether they were or not, but here

4 you said Jelisic was very angry. And later on, those who were with him

5 said to you that some of their fellow combatants were killed when they

6 were trying to push the Serb line across the bridge near the hospital.

7 So the question I put to you was based on what you wrote here,

8 that several of his comrades got killed; is that right?

9 A. I am stating what they did. I mean -- or what they said, these

10 soldiers that came with Goran Jelisic. Then this fighting broke out,

11 these men were beaten up, the men who were standing there.

12 Q. Do you allow for the following possibility, that the persons

13 killed you referred to a short while ago were the persons who got killed?

14 A. No.

15 Q. So they were not the ones who got killed?

16 A. No, no.

17 Q. So you preclude that possibility completely?

18 A. Completely.

19 Q. How come?

20 A. Because he became so angry, and we had seen these people before he

21 had come.

22 Q. Oh, so you did not see them before.

23 A. Before he came to see us and before he started beating people, we

24 saw these men. In my opinion, they were waiting for him to come to see

25 what they do with us.

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Page 30249

1 Q. All right. So you preclude the possibility of these people being

2 precisely the people who got killed.

3 A. I think that this is just a trick they tried to play because they

4 did not manage to take this road.

5 Q. As you say in paragraph 25, when they took you to the terrace of

6 the hotel, you noticed that Jelisic had a pistol on him in a holster.

7 A. Wait a minute. He had a pistol, whereas Monika had that so-called

8 Skorpion. Let's get this clear.

9 Q. All right. So Jelisic was armed by a pistol, and Monika had a

10 Skorpion.

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And then you saw Jelisic beating two Muslims with a truncheon.

13 A. Yes, he did have a truncheon in his hands.

14 Q. And soon after that, you witnessed the killing of Sadik Ljaljic, a

15 Muslim from Brcko.

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Who killed Sadik Ljaljic? Did you see these people who did that?

18 A. The people we just talked about, the people who were guarding the

19 SUP building in the dark blue overalls, those men.

20 Q. And when did that happen?

21 A. That happened on the 4th of May. It could have been around 1.00

22 in the afternoon.

23 Q. Where were you then?

24 A. On the terrace of the old hotel, in front. This terrace can be

25 seen until the present day.

Page 30250

1 Q. And where was this Ljaljic who had been killed?

2 A. He was taken out of his house. His house is the second house

3 behind the SUP building.

4 Q. Wait a minute. You say that these were people in dark blue

5 overalls and that they were the ones who did it. Why do you say in

6 paragraph 28 that this was done by people who were commanded by Dragan?

7 A. I can say why: Because they themselves said that they were

8 Captain Dragan's volunteers.

9 Q. Those who killed this man called Ljaljic?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. All right. Since they took you away from the terrace and sent you

12 to the park nearby --

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. -- you say that a certain Mile Gatarevic walked up to you; is that

15 right?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Otherwise, a resident of Brcko, a man from your town?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. With two other men.

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Now, this Gatarevic didn't wear a uniform either; he was wearing

22 civilian clothes.

23 A. That is right.

24 Q. So he was not a member of the JNA either.

25 A. Yes, he was not. I assume that he wasn't even a reservist.

Page 30251

1 Q. All right. Since he asked you to come with him, you did that.

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And at the moment when you were entering the SUP building --

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. -- which is about 50 metres away from the hotel --

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. -- you heard a burst of gunfire from the hotel terrace?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. You instinctively looked then in the direction of the place where

10 the gunfire was heard and you noticed Jelisic standing.

11 A. What are you saying? I did not say "whole," I said "group."

12 Q. Oh. So you claim that he actually killed them.

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Well, did you say a short while ago that he was armed with a

15 pistol only?

16 A. Yes, but he took from Monika this other pistol, this Skorpion,

17 while we were still there, while we were standing on the hotel terrace.

18 Q. All right. So he took somebody else's weapon and killed these

19 people.

20 A. The two of them closely cooperated, anyway.

21 Q. And then allegedly you saw these people fall to the ground.

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Let me try to get this straight. As you were entering the SUP

24 building, you heard a burst of gunfire.

25 A. Yes.

Page 30252

1 Q. And this man said to you that you shouldn't turn around, the man

2 who was leading you.

3 A. Well, he warned us not to turn around so that we would not be too

4 noticeable.

5 Q. All right. But when you did turn around by way of a reflex you

6 noticed Jelisic with a weapon in his hand standing by the group of people

7 who were also standing.

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. You didn't see him shooting.

10 A. That moment --

11 Q. I mean when you turned around. Did you see him as he was actually

12 shooting?

13 A. Wait a moment. I have to explain this. The moment I heard a

14 burst of gunfire, I turned around and I saw Goran with this automatic

15 pistol, and I saw people falling. No one else was shooting, no one around

16 him. Everybody received orders from him while I was still there that if

17 anybody tried to do anything, to move an arm, leg, whatever, that they

18 should be killed on the spot.

19 JUDGE MAY: You have two minutes left, Mr. Milosevic.

20 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, all right, I'll try to deal

21 with everything within those two minutes, Mr. May.

22 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

23 Q. You say that people who were standing in two lines were on the

24 terrace of the hotel.

25 A. The group that I stood in consisted of two lines.

Page 30253

1 Q. You say that this group that was allegedly killed by Goran Jelisic

2 were people who stood in two lines.

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. When did you see him take this weapon from this Monika?

5 A. While I was still standing in line, before I was separated in the

6 park.

7 Q. All right. In paragraph 35, you say that at that moment Jelisic

8 was on the terrace next to the dead men, the executed men.

9 A. When?

10 Q. When you heard the burst of gunfire.

11 A. He stood in front of them.

12 Q. In front of them? But you did not see him shoot them.

13 A. Well, I said this very nicely: The moment I heard the burst of

14 gunfire, I turned around by way of a reflex, and I saw Goran standing

15 there with an automatic pistol, and I saw people falling.

16 Q. But in the next sentence you say that the other soldiers were

17 standing on the ground. This is only two steps below the place where

18 Jelisic was. Is that right?

19 A. Yes, that's right. And there is a footpath by the terrace. The

20 terrace is on ground level, so it is only two steps above the ground,

21 actually.

22 Q. So was he on his own or was he not on his own? According to what

23 I heard from you and what I read here, he was not alone, there were at

24 least ten armed men along with him. Is that right?

25 A. Please, I said this a short while ago and I'll say it again:

Page 30254

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Page 30255

1 Goran Jelisic stood on the Terrace with Monika. Below him, two steps

2 below, on the footpath, which is not even five metres away from the park,

3 there were people standing there who were also armed and who received

4 orders from him that if anybody tried to do anything, they should be

5 killed. So he was doing what he had intended to do.

6 Q. All right. Soon after the talks at the SUP building you were

7 released, you were allowed to go home.

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Did anybody beat you at the SUP?

10 A. No.

11 Q. Did you spend a month at home?

12 A. I spent about two and a half months at home after that.

13 JUDGE MAY: Very well. This must be your last question.

14 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

15 Q. So after that, you were allowed to go home, immediately after that

16 interrogation?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. You were not beaten there and you stayed at home for another two

19 and a half months?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And you claim that you were then sent to the camp of Batkovic

22 where you spent three months and then you were released from there too.

23 A. Well, let me tell you. Let me be quite clear. They came to me to

24 sort of make a survey of apartments because I was staying at my parents'

25 house -- at my sister's place, actually, which was nearby. That's where

Page 30256

1 they found me. I was not in my own apartment. Also when they came on the

2 4th of May and when they collected us, they said that they were collecting

3 us in order to take us to work somewhere near Bijeljina.

4 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Tapuskovic -- Mr. Kay.

5 Questioned by Mr. Kay:

6 Q. Witness, just a couple of brief matters. I'm looking at paragraph

7 17 of your statement in English, and you describe Goran Jelisic at the

8 hotel with Monika, and they had firearms and were wearing military

9 clothing, and I'll read it out to you. If you'll just concentrate to the

10 question, Witness, it will help you.

11 "Jelisic was angry," and you were told later by the men that he'd

12 lost some comrades during an attempt to push the Serb line across one of

13 the bridges in the direction of the hospital.

14 Can you assist the Court by telling us what exactly was happening

15 there as it seems that there was some kind of conflict or confrontation.

16 Do you know?

17 A. At that time when Goran returned, both he and his fellow

18 combatants - let me not use another word - informed us that they'd tried

19 to go in that direction, to take that road, and that they were actually

20 stopped by some group of people, and they say that they even sustained

21 casualties. I mean, if they had any dead, they would have brought them

22 there for everyone to see, because this was a major slogan of theirs, that

23 they were being killed, and they weren't doing anything else really. They

24 didn't succeed in doing this, and they took out all their anger on the

25 people who had been brought there. Quite simply, that's it.

Page 30257

1 Q. And just turning now to paragraph 19, and it's on the same issue

2 as to killings and confrontation. At the end of that paragraph, you say

3 they were referring to an incident where Serbian soldiers were killed.

4 Are you able to give any assistance to the Court as to what that

5 was about, what was being referred to where Serbian soldiers were killed?

6 A. In terms of everything I've been saying so far and in terms of my

7 testimony, I've been saying that they were trying to take the road between

8 Belgrade-Bijeljina-Banja Luka. I repeat this is the only road going

9 through Brcko. There's not any other road, and there's no shorter road

10 either.

11 So that is why they were taking this road. Or, rather, they were

12 trying to take this road in order to link Krajina with Eastern Bosnia and

13 Serbia.

14 Q. And are you able to assist as to who the fighting was between then

15 when these people were killed?

16 A. That is what they were saying, that some people got killed, but

17 specifically Goran Jelisic with his group of men tried this breakthrough,

18 but then there were these other people, too, who know very well every

19 street, every house, every shrub in town. So they stopped them, and they

20 didn't allow them to take the road. That is why they came back angry.

21 What they did, they did; they killed these people on the terrace of the

22 old hotel, the old hotel called Posavina, that is.

23 MR. KAY: Thank you. No further questions.

24 Re-examined by Mr. Agha:

25 Q. Witness, you have mentioned that the JNA came because they wanted

Page 30258

1 to prevent conflict. When they came, how much fighting was going on in

2 Brcko?

3 A. Since I lived there before and then I'm not aware of any fighting.

4 There were various attempts by way of provocations, but all of this was

5 done on the part of people who had come to the military garrison of Brcko

6 where they were put up. These were people who had special training, who

7 were armed. They even slept there, and they went on orders to different

8 parts of town in order to patrol these areas or to check things out.

9 I cannot claim that there weren't any squabbles or skirmishes

10 between them, including gunfire; but killing, no. When these special

11 units came to town, that was it.

12 Q. Now, Witness, you mentioned that these Serbian paramilitaries were

13 staying with the JNA command in their barracks. Were they still staying

14 there after the shooting incident you saw Jelisic commit outside the

15 hotel?

16 A. Yes. They had dormitories made available to them, military

17 dormitories. That's where they slept, that's where they gathered. And

18 from there they were sent on to various assignments, offensives, battles.

19 Q. Now, you mentioned that Jelisic came from Bijeljina. Can you name

20 any other paramilitary leader who came from Bijeljina who you also saw in

21 Brcko at that time?

22 A. There was this person called -- I mean, he had this nickname

23 Mauzer. I don't know his name. I don't even know his last name. But

24 everybody, everybody, even his own men, called him by his nickname Mauzer.

25 Q. And do you know -- well, you've mentioned that you knew the person

Page 30259

1 who blew up the bridges. Do you know which political party he was a

2 member of?

3 A. Well, all of them opted either for the Serb Radical Party or the

4 Serb SDS, as it was called, the Serb Democratic Party.

5 Q. And was anyone injured when the bridge was blown up, that you know

6 of?

7 A. Oh, and how. There were people who were crossing the bridge.

8 This was just before the May holidays, so people were coming on buses from

9 the Croatian side to the village of Gunj. They crossed this bridge which

10 had been made as some kind of hanging bridge, and then buses awaited them

11 on our Bosnian side and took them to different parts of Bosnia.

12 These people got killed. Their number can only be estimated. But

13 the fact is that they all ended up at this very unpopular place, that is

14 to say the dog pound.

15 Q. And do you know what the ethnicity was of these people who were

16 injured? Were they largely from one ethnic group or both?

17 A. I didn't know, because it is a well-known fact that in the former

18 Yugoslavia, May Day was a holiday celebrated by everyone, irrespective of

19 ethnicity or religion. Everybody celebrated it.

20 MR. AGHA: That completes my re-examination, Your Honours.

21 JUDGE MAY: Thank you. Witness B-1011, that concludes your

22 evidence. Thank you for coming to the International Tribunal to give it.

23 You are free to go. Would you just wait until the blinds are pulled down

24 before you do.

25 We will now adjourn for half an hour.

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Page 30261

1 [The witness withdrew]

2 --- Recess taken at 10.34 a.m.

3 --- On resuming at 11.07 a.m.

4 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Let the witness take the declaration.

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

6 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

7 JUDGE MAY: Yes. If you'd like to take a seat.

8 WITNESS: MEHMED MUSIC

9 [Witness answered through interpreter]

10 JUDGE MAY: Ms. Pack, just before we go into the witness, we need

11 to consider the timing. There is legal argument. It had been arranged

12 more conveniently than I arranged it to deal with that now, but I have

13 arranged otherwise. But let us deal with it now.

14 Mr. Kay, how long do you anticipate you might be?

15 MR. KAY: I'll be ten or 15 minutes.

16 JUDGE MAY: And Mr. Nice, depending of course on the argument.

17 MR. NICE: Of course. I hope not very long -- I hope not very

18 long because it's covered in pleadings. There are also associated

19 pleadings which would probably best be read into the record to guide you,

20 in both Krajisnik and in Brdjanin, so I would have thought no longer than

21 Mr. Kay.

22 JUDGE MAY: So if we allowed three-quarters of an hour, that

23 should be --

24 MR. NICE: I hope so.

25 JUDGE MAY: Thank you. Yes, Ms. Pack.

Page 30262

1 Examined by Ms. Pack:

2 Q. Mr. Music, would you give the court, please, your name.

3 A. My name is Mehmed Music. I was born in Donji Hadzici, near

4 Sarajevo.

5 MS. PACK: Could the witness be handed the bis package, please.

6 Q. Witness, have you made one statement to officers from the Tribunal

7 in June of 1997?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. And did you make two statements to authorities in Bosnia in April

10 1993 and in February 1998?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And have you had an opportunity since being in The Hague to read

13 those three statements through in your own language?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And are the contents of those statements true to the best of your

16 knowledge, subject to a change which I shall deal with in a moment?

17 A. Yes.

18 MS. PACK: Your Honour, one of those statements was the subject of

19 a declaration pursuant to 92 bis. They were all part of an application

20 under that rule, so I would ask instead that they are all admitted under

21 Rule 89(F) of the Rules.

22 JUDGE MAY: Yes.

23 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honour, the Prosecution Exhibit number is

24 615.

25 MS. PACK: I'll read a short summary of those statements.

Page 30263

1 Mehmed Music, a Muslim, lived in the village of Musici in the

2 Hadzici municipality of Sarajevo at the outbreak of hostilities in Bosnia.

3 He was captured after his village was attacked and shelled by Bosnian Serb

4 forces. In his statement, he talks about the detention of large numbers

5 of Muslim civilians, including women and children, in a series of

6 detention facilities around Sarajevo from the 20th of May, 1992. He

7 describes killings, interrogations, beatings and other mistreatment,

8 including the imposition of forced labour of detainees in these

9 facilities. He describes the presence of men he describes as Arkanovci at

10 the sports hall in Hadzici and their beating and other mistreatment of

11 detainees there.

12 On the 22nd of June, 1992, Mr. Music was taken, along with

13 approximately 280 detainees, to Lukavica barracks. He and 47 other men

14 from his village area were forced to run a gauntlet of armed Serbs wearing

15 red berets. He could tell from their manner of speech that the men

16 wearing red berets were not from Bosnia.

17 The witness, along with the other prisoners, was beaten as he ran

18 the gauntlet. He came to a room where he saw the other detainees who had

19 run the gauntlet before him lined up against the walls. There were

20 officers at a desk in the middle of the room. One of the officers was

21 wearing a cap which contained insignia similar to those of Serbia.

22 Another one of the officers spoke with a Montenegrin accent. The officers

23 sent the witness back through the gauntlet, telling him they hadn't called

24 his name. The 47 other men, who included the witness's brother, have

25 never been seen or heard of again.

Page 30264

1 The witness describes seeing regular JNA soldiers at the Lukavica

2 barracks during the time of his detention there and the presence of men he

3 describes as Arkanovci.

4 He also describes seeing armed men arriving from Serbia and

5 Montenegro for the weekends, leaving on Mondays. These men, referred to

6 as "weekend Chetniks," could be identified as being from Serbia and

7 Montenegro by their speech.

8 Your Honour, I have a few additional questions I'd ask the

9 witness.

10 JUDGE MAY: Yes.

11 MS. PACK: Can the witness be shown, please, his statement to the

12 Tribunal at tab 1 of the bundle. In the bis package. If he could be

13 pointed to his statement dated June 1997. It's the second statement in

14 the bundle.

15 Q. Witness, please look at paragraph 8 of the B/C/S version of your

16 statement. You talk there about an incident in March 1992 occurring in

17 the field near your property. Would you like to take this opportunity to

18 correct the date that you speak to in that paragraph?

19 A. Yes, I can correct the date. This was in the middle of September

20 1992. My children were going to school at the time. It was after the New

21 Year. My father and three brothers lived next door.

22 Q. Pause there, please, Witness. I wanted to ask you specifically

23 about the stranger that you saw in your field. Please can you describe

24 what he was wearing?

25 A. He was wearing JNA clothing. He had binoculars. He had a

Page 30265

1 military-issue bag, he had a military map, and he was writing in some

2 elevations, looking left and right and noting something down. Another two

3 neighbours of mine went to one side, and I and another neighbour went to

4 the other side. I asked him, "What are you doing?" He said, "I'm doing

5 my regular duties." "Where are you from?" And he answered, "I am from

6 Catina," referring to a place called Catina Bara, Cata's Marshes.

7 Q. Was he from, so far as you were concerned, Bosnia?

8 A. No. He had a different accent. Ekavian dialect. He was

9 unshaven. He was not shaving for a month maybe. He went towards the

10 house of my neighbour Gavro. They stayed there and sang provocative

11 songs, and after that he left.

12 Q. Did he tell you what he was doing in your field?

13 A. He only said he was discharging his duties, following orders.

14 Q. Witness, please turn to your statement again and look at paragraph

15 46 of your statement, please. Witness, you describe there seeing men who

16 describe themselves as Arkan's men at the sports hall in Hadzici. Did you

17 find out where these men were from?

18 A. We learned they were from Serbia, judging only by their accents.

19 And there was a Bosniak by the name of Salihic who recognised him. They

20 used to be friends. I don't know where they had met before. He put his

21 arm around him and said, "This is the only good man among all of you." He

22 started to provoke us. There was also a woman named Ljilja together with

23 him. She was the phys. ed. teacher to my daughters. I don't know whether

24 they were drunk or something, but they were doing things that I really

25 don't want to name.

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Page 30267

1 Q. Thank you, Witness. If you could turn to paragraph 74 of your

2 statement.

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Witness, again I don't want you to describe the matters of what

5 happened at Lukavica, that is all contained within those paragraphs in

6 your statement.

7 Looking at paragraph 74, you describe men as wearing red berets.

8 Can you tell us, please, if you subsequently found out where they were

9 from.

10 A. From Serbia.

11 Q. And how did you know that?

12 A. Judging by their accents and the way they swore at me and asked me

13 where my sons were on the front line, and I answered I had no sons, I only

14 had daughters.

15 MS. PACK: Those are all the additional questions I had to ask,

16 Your Honour.

17 JUDGE KWON: Ms. Pack, if you can tell me the relevance of this

18 evidence in relation to the indictment. What specific events is this

19 witness referring to in terms of specific events in the indictment?

20 MS. PACK: He doesn't speak to specific scheduled incidents in the

21 indictment so far as the schedules are concerned.

22 JUDGE KWON: Okay.

23 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Milosevic. What we're going to do is this:

24 You can begin your cross-examination. At about quarter to the hour, we'll

25 stop it and interpose the legal argument, and you can go on then after the

Page 30268

1 adjournment. Yes.

2 Cross-examined by Mr. Milosevic:

3 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Music, you gave three statements to one and

4 the same event, as Mrs. Pack just said.

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. You gave your first statement on the 18th of April, 1993, in the

7 Ministry of the Interior of Bosnia and Herzegovina in the state security

8 service of Hadzici.

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. That was only five months after you were exchanged, and you say it

11 was on the 5th of November, 1992.

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. So that's your first statement. And you gave your second

14 statement to investigators on two occasions; on the 16th of June and the

15 26th of June, 1997; right?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. That is less than five years after the events you're testifying

18 to.

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. And finally, your third statement is of the 21st of February,

21 1998, to the Investigation and Documentation Agency in Sarajevo.

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. As to the second statement given in 1997 to investigators of the

24 OTP, I would like to know several things. You gave this statement on two

25 days; on the 16th and the 26th of February [as interpreted]. Which part

Page 30269

1 of the statement was given on the 16th and which on the 26th of June?

2 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter corrects herself: June.

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I cannot tell you which part I gave

4 when. If you give me a specific paragraph, I will tell you on which day I

5 gave it.

6 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

7 Q. I can't read the whole statement.

8 A. You needn't read the whole statement.

9 Q. You can't remember which part you gave on the 16th and which on

10 the 26th?

11 A. Not really.

12 Q. Can you explain in which way you gave that statement? Did you

13 provide the statement in the same way the first and the second time?

14 A. Yes, both times in the same way. The second time, I only

15 emphasised that I was -- while I was in the toilets with seven or eight

16 other people and I did all the other work that I was required to do, such

17 as disposing of rubbish. On that occasion, I saw a man who brought me his

18 car to wash, and he looked at me in a strange way. I don't know whether

19 he knew that ten members of my family were killed in Lukavica. I was

20 anxious that he could slit my throat. He was wearing a JNA uniform, he

21 had big eyes, he wore this cap with a cockade, this Serbian cap. And when

22 I finished the job, he gave me a pack of cigarettes. He didn't do

23 anything to me. That's the only thing I can remember mentioning on the

24 second day, in the second statement.

25 Q. When you say you saw Poplasen, you mean the former President of

Page 30270

1 Republika Srpska?

2 A. Yes, Professor Nikola Poplasen.

3 Q. You know that he was a professor. He was later elected President

4 of Republika Srpska.

5 A. Well, you can recognise a man when he's well shaven, cleanly

6 shaven and well dressed, but when he looks unkempt and has a beard or a

7 stubble, you cannot recognise him.

8 Q. As far as I know, he always had a beard.

9 A. On that occasion he had a terrible beard. I didn't like it at

10 all, either the beard or the way he was looking at me.

11 Q. It seems to be the case that you only washed his car and he gave

12 you a pack of cigarettes.

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. How did it ever occur to you that he might slit your throat? Did

15 he ever do that to anyone?

16 A. Well, he carried such a long knife, and he could have inspired

17 even worse thoughts.

18 Q. Did you see him cut anyone's throat?

19 A. I didn't see anything of the kind. I can only speak to what I

20 saw.

21 Q. Let us come back to your statement to investigators. You gave

22 that statement to investigators how? Did they ask you questions and you

23 replied, or did they just let you describe the events in a narrative way,

24 as you saw fit?

25 A. I recounted everything as I remembered it. I couldn't remember

Page 30271

1 all the dates, but if you ask me, I will tell you everything.

2 I would like not to be sitting here, but it's your fault that I am

3 sitting here.

4 Q. Well, Mr. Music, you didn't really answer my question. Did they

5 ask you questions or did you just narrate what you saw fit to tell them?

6 A. They didn't ask me questions. I recounted my own experience.

7 Q. So they did not put any questions to you.

8 A. Why would they?

9 Q. They didn't interrupt you with any questions while they took your

10 statement?

11 A. No.

12 Q. On the 16th and on the 26th of June, you only narrated without

13 being asked any questions?

14 A. What 16th of June are you talking about?

15 Q. Those are the dates of your statement.

16 A. That's what they asked me to do. It's not my idea.

17 Q. But all that time they didn't ask you any questions, either on the

18 16th or the 26th; you only narrated?

19 A. I told them what I thought I should tell them.

20 Q. Very well. In paragraph 1 of that statement, you said that you

21 had read your statement of the 18th of April, 1993, and stated that in

22 essence that statement is accurate, but after rereading it you added some

23 handwritten notes in the margins of photocopied pages which you initialed

24 and dated; correct?

25 A. Yes.

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Page 30273

1 Q. Is it also correct that such a copy of this statement, with

2 signature and the date, was added to the statement you gave to the

3 investigator?

4 A. I think so.

5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May, could I please be given a

6 corrected statement of the witness dated the 18th of April, the way he

7 just described it, with these corrections, his signature, and the date?

8 JUDGE MAY: Ms. Pack, has the accused got the original, or the

9 most original copy which you have?

10 MS. PACK: I would have thought it's been disclosed but I shall

11 just check. It's not in the bundle that you have in front of you?

12 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Have a look at that.

13 Yes, Mr. Milosevic.

14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] So let me just say for the record

15 that since the witness confirmed that he added something there on the

16 margins of the photocopied pages, that he initialed this and put the date

17 there, I have nothing that was added in that way, including his initials

18 and the date, so I don't have this document that he just referred to, but

19 I shall continue now, and I hope that I will get what I asked for.

20 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

21 Q. Since you talk about Chetniks, tell me, who are Chetniks? What

22 are Chetniks?

23 A. For me, Chetniks were all those who killed, torched, and expelled

24 Bosniaks. My next-door neighbours and I went to see them for Christmas,

25 and they came to see me for Bajram, and they all sided with this idea.

Page 30274

1 The JNA armed them in 1991.

2 Q. Tell me, are you calling all Serbs Chetniks or only some of them?

3 A. Heaven forbid. How could I call all of them Chetniks? I cannot

4 call honest Serbs Chetniks.

5 Q. Who do you call Chetniks?

6 A. Those who took part in atrocities, slaughters, and all kinds of

7 crimes.

8 Q. All right, Mr. Music. In the first statement, in the first

9 paragraph you say that until the 20th of May, 1992, Chetniks did not come

10 to your village except twice when, as you say, Boro Djukanovic, Dragan

11 Pusara, and Gavro Todorovic, urged you, the villagers, to hand in your

12 weapons. They promised that nothing would happen to you if you did so; is

13 that right?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. So why are you calling the three of them Chetniks?

16 A. Because they were the main people involved, Vojvoda Dragan Pusara,

17 he killed two of my uncles, Music Alija and Music Fadil. And Gavro was

18 also a Vojvoda. In 1991, Chetniks assembled at his place and sang

19 provocative songs. We lived in that kind of environment.

20 JUDGE MAY: Just a moment. The accused is being given something.

21 Let me see what it is.

22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I got some statement but on its

23 margins there are no corrections either. There is nothing written there.

24 JUDGE MAY: Let's have a look at that document. What is it that

25 you've got?

Page 30275

1 Yes, Ms. Pack, what is the document, please?

2 MS. PACK: If I can just explain. It's the same document that you

3 have in your binder, the statement dated 18th of April, 1993. What you'll

4 see is it's got an added ERN which shows that it's a continuation of the

5 1997 statement. This is the actual document that was attached to that,

6 with the signature at the bottom of each page, and one addition on the

7 second page in manuscript made by the witness.

8 I will have to check upstairs as to whether this particular

9 statement was disclosed. I'm afraid I don't know for that certain.

10 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Will the legal officer come up, please.

11 [Trial Chamber and legal officer confer]

12 JUDGE MAY: Yes. We will hand the document to the accused.

13 Mr. Milosevic, that's the best we can do.

14 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

15 Q. All right. You explained that these three men, on the 20th of

16 May, urged you, the villagers, to hand in your weapons, and they were

17 explaining that if you did that, everything would be all right. That's

18 what you stated.

19 A. Not on the 20th of May but between the 15th and 16th of May. On

20 the 20th of May, they had already surrounded the village, broke into the

21 village, killed my uncles, and they took me prisoner together with 13 of

22 my relatives.

23 Djukanovic Boro was with us until the 15th of May, because he's

24 the only one who remained neutral. He even slept with us. But then he

25 was there among us. They planted him there. My father's farm and his

Page 30276

1 house are only separated by the road. We went to school together. I

2 trusted him more than I trusted some of my relatives.

3 But on the 5th of May -- or, rather, on the 15th or 16th of May he

4 came with a white ribbon, and he said to me, Mujo Music, the late Mujo

5 Music, he was executed in Lukavica, shot in Lukavica; Fadil Music, he's

6 also dead; Adil Music. I'm the only survivor. He said to us then,

7 "Hand in your weapons," and we just had hunting weapons. He said, "This

8 is Serb land. You have nothing to look for here." After that, only five

9 minutes later, Dragan used a megaphone saying the White Eagles are there,

10 this and that. They were there with Pragas, with combat vehicles.

11 Q. We'll get to that.

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Mr. Music, in spite of all these calls that you refer to here,

14 none of you handed in your weapons. You all expressed your readiness to

15 fight.

16 A. Not to fight but to guard civilians, women and children, because

17 we had heard what happened in Vogosca and Croatia, and we didn't want the

18 same thing to happen to us.

19 Q. All right, Mr. Music. I'm asking you on the basis of your

20 statements because I'm quoting this. "Nobody handed over their weapons in

21 spite of these calls. They all expressed their readiness to fight. On

22 several occasions, Omer Alic stopped us from doing that."

23 A. Because he was not a good man. Because afterwards, the Serbs got

24 his wife and children out of Serb-held Grbavica. They even got his car.

25 And he now lives in Canada.

Page 30277

1 Q. I quoted your statement a few minutes ago. So none of you handed

2 over your weapons and you all expressed your readiness to fight. Isn't

3 that right?

4 A. Mr. Milosevic, when NATO struck, why didn't you surrender

5 immediately? Why did you fight?

6 Q. I'm asking you --

7 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Music, I know this is very difficult and hard for

8 you to come back and to have to recall these incidents, but at this stage,

9 what we need to hear, please, is your evidence. It may be tempting to

10 argue with the accused - I have no doubt it is - but could you just

11 confine yourself, if you would, just to the answers.

12 Yes, Mr. Milosevic.

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. I beg your pardon.

14 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

15 Q. So why would you fight if nobody attacked you? Nobody had

16 attacked you until then. You were just being asked to hand in your

17 weapons. That's what you stated yourself.

18 A. Well, look, after the 9th of May, 1992, my brother-in-law lived in

19 Hadzici right above the clinic. That was the 12th Herzegovinian. Then

20 the White Eagles were there too. They executed 15 of them. From then

21 onwards, my village could not even sleep. They were targeting us with all

22 sorts of things.

23 My brother-in-law came on the 7th, and he got my daughters out, my

24 daughters who had been at home. He said, "Father-in-law, let the children

25 go, there's something wrong," and indeed the children went to Pazaric.

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Page 30279

1 So from that moment onwards after those killings, day and night we

2 had no peace in our village. The Pragas, that ammunition, we could not

3 sleep at all.

4 Q. All right. Mr. Music, together with other villagers, as you said,

5 you wanted to fight, but Omer Alic stopped you from doing that, who is

6 also a Muslim, also a local person. And you say then that he was in

7 command, in charge.

8 A. Well, he was elected some kind of commander, whatever.

9 Q. All right. So you had your own command that was headquartered in

10 Alija Music's house.

11 A. Yes, that's right.

12 Q. So you were some kind of a unit, weren't you, since you had your

13 command? This command was the command of some unit.

14 A. Not a command, this was just people being together in order to

15 stand guard.

16 Q. So what did this command command?

17 A. I'm telling you, it's no command. We were just standing guard.

18 From my house to Gavro's house, there is less than 700 to 800 metres.

19 Provocative songs were sung. "This is Serbia; Balija, we're going to

20 slaughter you." I wonder whether you would protect your family the same

21 way.

22 My father, who had been born in 1922, was sick. My uncle was

23 sick. Actually, both of my uncles were sick. Had anybody told me

24 anything, I would have withdrawn. I didn't want to go through any kind of

25 torture because my wife was in camp too, and two brothers and two

Page 30280

1 children. One of the children was third grade at that time.

2 Q. Mr. Music, I want to clarify what you wrote here in your

3 statement. So the fact that you had a command did not mean that you had a

4 unit. Is that your assertion? So you simply had a command.

5 Tell me, how many of you had were armed and what kind of weapons

6 did you have?

7 A. Well, what did we have? Two or three hunting guns, or perhaps

8 somebody had a pistol, that's all.

9 Q. So only hunting rifles and pistols?

10 A. Of course everybody was a hunter.

11 Q. How many of you had arms?

12 A. In the village there were only 20 to 25 of us altogether.

13 Q. All right. Also in your first statement you say that your

14 commander, Omer Alic, guided you to break out of the village in the

15 direction of the reservoir and Djurdjevace, but you refused that because

16 you would fall into enemy hands; is that right?

17 A. Yes. As I wrote earlier on when we were doing these maps, et

18 cetera, the reservoir is two kilometres away from my house. They had this

19 command there and they were digging trenches on their own land and

20 communication trenches. Gavro Todorovic said don't go up there, the

21 reservists from Serbia are involved in all kinds of manoeuvres up. So

22 Gavro Todorovic and the other Serbs were there.

23 Q. All right. When Omer Alic was telling you to break -- make a

24 breakthrough from the village in the direction of the reservoir, what date

25 was this?

Page 30281

1 A. Date?

2 Q. When he told you to make this breakthrough.

3 A. It was the end of April.

4 Q. All right. Did you try to break out, or did you?

5 A. No. My father's arm is as high as the place where they had their

6 cannons and all these weapons. I saw that they were getting ready up

7 there, but we did not understand that that is what would happen. I could

8 not imagine that my neighbour with whom I shared both good and evil would

9 do something like that to me.

10 Q. All right. Mr. Music, you say that towards the end of April you

11 were supposed to carry out this breakthrough and you say that your village

12 was attacked on the 20th of May, 1992.

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. In your first statement, paragraph 2, you say: "On the 20th of

15 May, 1992, around 12.00 --" I'm quoting your statement -- "the Chetniks

16 encircled our village. I was in my house at that time. A few hours after

17 the village had been encircled and the fighting had stopped, Tomo Elcic

18 and Milan Elcic came to my house and brought me in front of Alija Music's

19 house."

20 Is that what you wrote?

21 A. I didn't write "several hours." I said a few minutes only. I

22 just wanted to have a cup of coffee, and there were two men in SMB

23 uniforms and with helmets on their heads and with weapons on the door.

24 They said weapons, hand in your weapons. Tomo Elcic took a hand grenade

25 in order to throw it there. There were women and children there.

Page 30282

1 Q. All right. So on the 20th of May, around 12.00, Tomo Elcic and

2 Milan Elcic brought you in front of Alija Music's house.

3 A. After 12.00, there was about half an hour of shooting from Pragas,

4 whatever, and they were asking who had weapons, and since they got no

5 answer, from there we went to in front of Alija Music's house where they

6 lined us up against the wall.

7 Q. Please, Mr. Music. You say actually after the fighting that took

8 place. Who was it that was involved in the fighting?

9 A. They were shooting from all sides. And they said that my uncle

10 had killed my other uncle, things like that. They were shooting at

11 random. One did not know where this was coming from.

12 Q. In paragraph 19 of your other statement -- we now clarify what you

13 said in your first statement and I quoted what you said. In paragraph 19

14 from your other statement, and I'm quoting again: "Sometime around the

15 15th of May, they started to fire shells at the village. The first shell

16 fell somewhere near my house. There was so much we couldn't even go out.

17 They targeted my house ten times but they didn't hit it."

18 Is that also your statement?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Now look at your first statement again, paragraph 2, where you say

21 two Pragas that had come when the village was being encircled and that

22 were targeting the forest above the village --

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. -- were driven by Marilovic Momo and Kusara. Is that what you

25 stated?

Page 30283

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Tell me now, when were you telling the truth; to the members of

3 the MUP when you gave them a statement on the 18th of April, 1993, or the

4 investigators on the 16th and 26th of June?

5 A. I don't know which statement you mean. I gave the same statement

6 then and the other time.

7 Q. Please. I read the first statement to you, and you say that on

8 the 20th of May, around 12.00, the village was encircled. "At that time I

9 was at home, and a few hours after the village had been encircled that the

10 fighting had stopped --" and then I mentioned these two names -- "they

11 came and brought me in front of Alija Music's house."

12 And the other statement, you say: "Around the 15th of May they

13 started shelling the village. The first shell fell near my house. There

14 were so many of them that I could not get out. They targeted the house

15 ten times but they didn't manage to hit it."

16 This is a description of events that is quite different. The

17 dates are quite different and the actual occurrences are different. Tell

18 me, what is the truth?

19 A. There is either something wrong with me or you do not want to

20 understand. Didn't I tell that you after the 8th of May, when the

21 Kovacevics were executed in Hadzici in front of the centre there by the

22 White Eagles and these other soldiers, we could not go to the shed any

23 longer in my village or anywhere, any one of the buildings outside. They

24 were targeting us all the time. And then between the 15th and the 16th,

25 between the 15th and the 16th -- did I say April? The first shell --

Page 30284

1 Q. No. Here you said that on the 15th of May you were shelled.

2 A. Yes. Yes. And then on the 15th of May, the first shell that fell

3 fell below my house, and the second one fell too, and it hasn't even been

4 taken out yet. If there are any experts here, they will realise that it

5 went so deep into the soil that it never managed to come out.

6 Q. All right. But in paragraph 2, you explain that two Pragas that

7 were brought there during the encircling fired in the direction of the

8 woods above the village.

9 So here you're talking about the shelling of your house, and then

10 you talk about Pragas that fired at the woods above the village. Is that

11 what you stated?

12 A. Look, we created this diversion and our guard to hold there

13 without being seen by anyone. If you pass by, you can find cover there,

14 and if you look you don't see anyone. They shot there at random, thinking

15 somebody was there. They also shot up there where my neighbours, the

16 Marilovics lived.

17 Q. Don't tell me anything about the neighbours. Tell me, why didn't

18 you mention in any statement any heavy shelling of your village? You talk

19 exclusively about encirclement and the fighting you had with local Serbs

20 that you referred to as Chetniks. Why do you fail to mention any kind of

21 heavy shelling and speak only of fighting between you and your local

22 Serbs, your neighbours whom you called Chetniks?

23 A. What can I say? I told you that it was in the month of April when

24 every day and every night we were targeted from Otinohovo [phoen], from

25 Mount Igman, from everywhere.

Page 30285

1 JUDGE MAY: We must stop now.

2 I must say, Mr. Milosevic, that I can see no inconsistency on the

3 dates. Both refer to the 20th of May. One refers to the Chetniks coming

4 from all sides; the other one refers to the Chetniks encircling the

5 village. I can see no inconsistency at all. We can return to this after

6 the adjournment.

7 Just a moment. We'll just deal with this.

8 Mr. Music, we're going to adjourn now on the -- because we have to

9 deal, I'm afraid, with an administrative matter, a legal matter. We've

10 got to have some argument on it, so we've got to adjourn your evidence

11 until after lunch to conclude it. If you wouldn't mind coming back then,

12 at 2.00, we'll go on with your evidence. The accused has got half an hour

13 more for cross-examination.

14 Yes. Mr. Milosevic, you can deal with the statements after the

15 adjournment.

16 Yes. If you'd like to go now and be back, please, at 2.00, and if

17 you'd remember not to speak to anybody about your evidence until it's

18 over.

19 [Witness stood down]

20 JUDGE MAY: We turn next to deal with the matter of the intercept

21 evidence and legal argument, that having been adjourned, having heard

22 the evidence last week of the relevant witness as we did. I would also

23 remind everybody that we've already had written submissions on this

24 matter. Furthermore, we've had legal argument before, so anybody can be

25 concise.

Page 30286

1 Mr. Kay, it might be convenient if you started off and give the

2 accused some time to gather his thoughts, and then we'll have Mr. Nice at

3 the end.

4 Mr. Kay, just to go through matters, I don't think you were

5 present last week, but I may be wrong, when we heard the witness who gave

6 evidence, but --

7 MR. KAY: I've read the transcript. I've got a copy of it on

8 disk.

9 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Very well. As I say, we've had the argument,

10 and we've also got your written submissions. You raised the question in

11 one of your arguments of relevance. That is a matter which is being

12 addressed by the -- by the Chamber in this way: That we've ordered the

13 Prosecution to produce a schedule stating the relevance of each shortly,

14 and that is not a matter we're dealing with at the moment. What we

15 propose to do is this: To deal with the other matters of admissibility

16 first and then we'll return to relevance after the adjournment, the longer

17 break. But if you'd like to address us on any other matters concerning

18 admissibility, as briefly as possible, please.

19 MR. KAY: I will be brief, Your Honours. I'll do one minute on

20 really the context of the argument as that perhaps is helpful when one

21 looks back at it. We're dealing here with Rule 89 and the power of the

22 Court to exclude evidence if probative value is outweighed substantially

23 by the need to ensure a fair trial. We also have, at Rule 95, evidence

24 shouldn't be admissible if obtained by methods which would cast doubt on

25 its reliability or its admission is antithetical and would seriously

Page 30287

1 damage the integrity of the proceedings.

2 The basis of the applications in relation to this particular

3 aspect of the evidence concern the right to privacy laws, the controls

4 that there are on illegal wiretapping by state authorities on citizens.

5 The reason for this is to ensure that the powers of the state are

6 controlled as well as to ensure the authenticity of the evidence, the

7 various institutions throughout the world being aware of the steps that

8 can be taken to falsify such evidence.

9 If I can go back, though, to the Tribunal's Rules and mention

10 another one, Rule 89(E): "A Chamber may request verification of the

11 authenticity of evidence obtained out of court." And in many respects, we

12 will probably end up at that position at the end of the day, because the

13 issue here is the reliability of the evidence.

14 Again, if I can just put matters into context very briefly before

15 I get really to the conclusion of it, in my submission to the Court, the

16 evidence that was heard, and in my view properly heard in advance of the

17 legal argument, was not clear at all on the legality of the process that

18 was undertaken. It was not, from the witness's evidence, an issue here

19 that the Court was being pointed to the appropriate authorisations that

20 would establish through the constitutional laws the legality of the

21 wiretaps, intercepts that were imposed.

22 And if one looks particularly at that aspect of the witness's

23 evidence where he deals with the issue of the Presidency and whether it

24 had been informed of the issue, and we're aware here that the Presidency

25 is a collective of the senior ministers, some of whom were being subject

Page 30288

1 to the intercept, the witness's justification of the particular

2 circumstances prevalent at the time in Bosnia-Herzegovina did not

3 establish that the alternative procedures that should have been open to

4 him were in fact followed as a matter of evidence. The Court will be

5 aware of his evidence of the informing of the president, Mr. Izetbegovic,

6 but there was no evidence that that had actually occurred. He had been

7 told by someone that that was what had happened, but in our submission,

8 that's highly unsatisfactory in relation to this particular issue, and

9 there is no corroboration or indeed any detailed evidence that supports

10 the lawfulness of that particular procedure.

11 And it may be noted that the Prosecution do not particularly lead

12 the issue of the legality within their own evidence, and it may be because

13 of the jurisprudence of the Tribunal which is a matter where we will

14 inevitably end up in dealing with this issue.

15 The relevant decisions being that of Kordic in which members of

16 this Trial Chamber were concerned, quote by His Honour Judge Robinson:

17 "Inadmissibility under Bosnian law doesn't make it inadmissible under

18 Tribunal law." From His Honour Judge May: "Eavesdropping on an enemy in

19 a war, although illegal, may not be antithetical to the Tribunal and not

20 seriously damage the proceedings as well as it's not the purpose of this

21 Tribunal to enforce state regulations."

22 What we get round to at the end of the day is the reliability of

23 this evidence which underwrites the whole issue under the Tribunal's Rules

24 for the admission of such evidence.

25 And if I may just refer the Court to the passages within the

Page 30289

1 Brdjanin decision, which can be taken very, very briefly at paragraph 55.

2 "The manner and surrounding circumstances in which evidence is obtained as

3 well as its reliability and effect on the integrity of the proceedings

4 will determine its admissibility. Illegally obtained evidence may,

5 therefore, be admitted under Rule 95 as there is no exclusionary rule as a

6 matter of principle."

7 And if we just look at paragraph 66 of the same judgement. "In

8 addition to relevance, the Trial Chamber must also determine whether the

9 material has probative value, which requires an assessment of the

10 reliability of the material. The Trial Chamber has no doubt at all that

11 intercepts, the authenticity of which cannot be proved beyond a reasonable

12 doubt, should be excluded."

13 JUDGE MAY: And then went on to admit the intercepts.

14 MR. KAY: Yes.

15 JUDGE MAY: Yes.

16 MR. KAY: It is that issue there, the authenticity which cannot be

17 proved beyond reasonable doubt, is really, in my submission, where we're

18 at in relation to this particular issue.

19 At this stage in the trial of Brdjanin, that Trial Chamber on a

20 prima facie basis --

21 JUDGE MAY: Yes. That might be a way forward --

22 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for the Presiding Judge, please.

23 JUDGE MAY: Sorry. That might be a way forward, of course, to see

24 whether there's any challenge of any sort to the -- that can be mounted to

25 these tapes. And if there is, it may be necessary to look at them again.

Page 30290

1 But prima facie, you've read these tapes, they're rambling conversations,

2 they don't have the sign of, do they, of unauthentic or in any way

3 tampered-with tapes? Would you say they do?

4 MR. KAY: I'd be very loath to give a judgement about that because

5 the sophistication in relation to these particular techniques are well

6 known, and many --

7 JUDGE MAY: Yes, of course. But you've read the conversations.

8 MR. KAY: We've all had experience where that which was believed

9 to be that which was said, and was done in a particularly convincing way

10 in relation to government information in relation to court proceedings,

11 has subsequently turned out to have been falsified. So I would be loath

12 that any decision was made at this stage in relation to being convinced

13 about the material.

14 JUDGE MAY: What ground have we got to say that it's not

15 authentic? Not simply an assertion that, oh, we all know this can happen.

16 This is, if I may say, to employ the conspiracy theory, there is a

17 conspiracy, but what we need is some basis on which to act, surely. You

18 as amicus, as opposed to Defence counsel, would surely at least consider

19 that position.

20 MR. KAY: We have, and the position we've got to is this: It's

21 the absence of the evidence that's so worrying. All we have had from the

22 witness was that he recognised the voice of the accused.

23 Now, these tapes have been under substantial challenge for a

24 considerable period of time; over a year. It was in the year October 2002

25 when we first entered into this evidence that the accused mentioned that

Page 30291

1 he did not accept the authenticity of --

2 JUDGE MAY: Well, of course he challenges everything, but we have

3 to act more realistically than simply a blanket challenge to all the

4 evidence. Surely you as amicus cannot adopt that position even if he

5 does. Just because he says, "I challenge everything," we as a Court must

6 act in a rather more responsible fashion, I would suggest.

7 MR. KAY: With respect, I think Your Honour has misunderstood me.

8 There has been an issue about this, not only in this case but other cases,

9 as the jurisprudence shows, and there has been no document from an expert

10 that has ever been to look at these tapes to establish their authenticity,

11 which is exactly the sort of thing that would happen under any other

12 criminal legal proceedings.

13 JUDGE MAY: We found in Kordic, and I recollect that we had a

14 lengthy debate about a tape, and it was found conclusively that it was a

15 genuine tape.

16 MR. KAY: In this case there has been no report, which is why I

17 referred the Tribunal to Rule 89(E) which requires verification of

18 evidence which would deal with this matter, and the consideration that we

19 put forward, which is reasonably open to the accused to submit this -

20 forgetting my position as an amicus - it is reasonably open to the accused

21 to submit this, is why hasn't there been any authentication by an expert

22 of the tape through mechanical -- through expert means, technological

23 means? Why are we just dealing with the issue of the nature of the

24 conversations and the recognition of voices when this has been an issue

25 that has been around for a long time?

Page 30292

1 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Kay, are you saying that once a reasonable

2 argument has been made as to authenticity, the burden is on the

3 Prosecution to establish authenticity?

4 MR. KAY: Absolutely. Because we get to this position, they must

5 prove beyond a reasonable doubt that this is reliable evidence. The only

6 way to do that is through authentication of it. Or they could leave it to

7 supposition and the basis of voice recognition and the nature of the

8 conversations, it's a matter for them. But at the end of the day, this

9 court in dealing with the judgement must be satisfied beyond reasonable

10 doubt of the reliability of the evidence. At this stage, as I said, it's

11 merely a prima facie test.

12 JUDGE MAY: What is the reasonable argument? "I assert that these

13 are false." That's the reasonable argument, is it?

14 MR. KAY: It doesn't have to be an argument in the sense of a

15 logical beginning and an end. It's not accepted. It's challenged by the

16 accused, as we have heard, that he was making those conversations. And

17 that's -- that's the matter that's been put into issue in this trial.

18 Now, when we first had the production of the intercepts, there was

19 an issue as to whether they were accepted or not. They weren't accepted,

20 it was clear, from the representations that he made, and we're now at the

21 stage of still this matter being unresolved as to authenticity. And that

22 is why, as I say at this stage, taking Brdjanin and it's a perfectly and

23 obvious and logical route, that it's an issue of reliability on a prima

24 facie basis that the court has to be satisfied with. The reason for this

25 is because there is concern about the nature of this kind of evidence.

Page 30293

1 That is why we have these controls within many states that support this

2 Tribunal, and international covenants and domestic legislation covering

3 this kind of evidence. It's because of the experience of the state as to

4 what can happen. And bearing that in mind, one of the issues being

5 controls of the state, it is also an issue of authenticity, and in our

6 submission, the only way to resolve this, to establish reliability beyond

7 a reasonable doubt is that the -- an expert consider the originals of

8 these tapes, not copies. The evidence this Court has heard has been about

9 copies, and there has not been evidence that has satisfactorily got to

10 grips with the whole issue; it has merely been left open as to whether

11 they are or are not genuine.

12 JUDGE MAY: So you invite us to follow the Brdjanin decision, do

13 you?

14 MR. KAY: Absolutely. It makes sense as far as me as an amicus

15 can see, reviewing the law, and the issue, although, is untidy because

16 it's not resolved at this stage, that's just been a matter as to how the

17 evidence has unfolded. There has been sufficient notice about this.

18 JUDGE MAY: Very well. We've got 245 to deal with, assuming that

19 for the moment there will be a substantial number, certainly, of which

20 relevance may be established, assuming that for the moment. Are we going

21 to send them all off to be tested? Is that your real suggestion?

22 MR. KAY: Well, my suggestion was that we should be pointed out as

23 to the relevant ones so that we could cut this down to a more manageable

24 issue.

25 JUDGE MAY: That we're going to do.

Page 30294

1 MR. KAY: Yes, and I suspect that if we -- having been through

2 these tapes, it is difficult often to judge what is in the hand of the

3 other side, but having been through them, there's a lot there that it

4 doesn't immediately appear to me is relevant to this particular trial, and

5 I'm sure that a selection of the top 20 could be made and, A, the evidence

6 gets more manageable; and B, that's sufficient for anyone to -- with

7 expertise to consider the particular exhibits.

8 JUDGE MAY: I must say as a possible comment, purely a possible

9 comment, it's the rambling nature of these conversations which suggests

10 that they're authentic, let alone anything else.

11 MR. KAY: I know Your Honour has made that remark, but in many

12 respects that may not be a significant tape. For my own part, I haven't

13 yet been able to merge what I can see as an issue and put it into an

14 overall context. There's simply too much to get to grips with. But if we

15 had a bit of honing down of this evidence it may be we could see whether

16 those with inconsequential conversation are in fact the meaty tapes, and

17 the top 20, so to speak, or it's the other ones that are of greater

18 concern. We haven't had that kind of analysis.

19 Unless I can assist the Court any further.

20 JUDGE MAY: No, thank you. Mr. Milosevic.

21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May, I assume that my position

22 is quite clear to you. But in relation to what Mr. Kay said only a few

23 moments ago, my associates and I did not have access in any way to the

24 alleged originals of these so-called conversations. It is transcripts and

25 copies that are invariably referred to. To tell you the truth, I'm not

Page 30295

1 interested in that at all.

2 Secondly, I'm absolutely convinced that these conversations have

3 been tampered with, manipulated. They come from a secret service that was

4 involved precisely in such manipulations.

5 A few minutes ago, you mentioned, Mr. May, as some kind of absurd

6 idea that then someone may come to some kind of a conspiracy theory. But

7 this is a conspiracy, because absolutely everything, everything that was

8 available was used to fabricate explanations or justifications for

9 secession or for shifting the blame to the other side. So that is

10 precisely what I'm claiming, that this is a conspiracy, and that is why I

11 assert that this is manipulation of various intercepted conversations.

12 Certainly there were telephone conversations. They were certainly

13 intercepted. However, in which context they were placed, how they were

14 rigged, what was included into them or what was taken out of them in order

15 to make them relevant is something that is impossible to ascertain.

16 So it is not a question of whether the conversations exist or

17 whether they are authentic. There is indeed a very high degree of

18 probability that this is malicious manipulation of different intercepts.

19 And if this kind of malicious manipulation is carried out in a

20 professional manner, then of course the intercepts will be rambling,

21 indeed, and they will seem authentic, therefore, because these

22 professional services do this so professionally that it seems authentic.

23 Mr. Kay said that various institutions throughout the world know

24 full well that there are ways of editing this kind of material, especially

25 in this situation nowadays when there are various electronic means

Page 30296

1 available that you can even put the image of someone into live pictures.

2 We can see that even in the most ordinary commercials where we see various

3 actors among politicians after 1945 and 1946. So no one can say that this

4 is not a live image and that those people were not actually there, and

5 everybody realises that they weren't there at the time.

6 So what I'm saying is that it is absolutely clear that there was a

7 high degree of manipulation. I am talking about conspiracy, I am talking

8 about malice, I am talking about a secret service that is carrying out

9 this manipulation precisely in the interest of justifying the actions of

10 their own government and their own ideas that were, inter alia, based on a

11 conspiracy. In order to carry out not only secession but crimes as well;

12 to portray one side as the victims and the other side as the guilty party.

13 So I don't want to go into all of the details any further. I

14 believe that such evidence coming from such a service which is allegedly

15 providing them cannot be admitted into evidence, not in any way.

16 Let me just add one more thing. You were quoted by Mr. Kay,

17 Mr. May, that you said eavesdropping on the enemy during the war is a

18 natural thing and it is not illegal. I assume that it can be put that

19 way, but most of these conversations, and I say that they were

20 manipulated, rigged, they were done in peacetime, not in wartime. So yet

21 again this proves that this is a conspiracy that involved a series of

22 actions in order to prepare the outbreak of the conflict.

23 [Trial Chamber confers]

24 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Nice.

25 MR. NICE: Your Honour, several points but I'll take them rapidly.

Page 30297

1 On the procedure, you will be, I hope, both pleased and interested

2 to know that the summary of the intercepts will be available, courtesy of

3 the hard work by Ms. Rembe, very much more quickly than you'd ordered,

4 possibly by the end of the week, and I think almost certainly by Monday.

5 And if I can give you some samples of what you'll get, it may help you to

6 plan ahead because you'll see that the material, in four lines -- it's not

7 a one-liner as I think I mentioned last week, it's usually about a three-

8 or four-liner, sometimes more, sometimes less -- will probably rapidly

9 show the obvious significance of all of these intercepts and reduction to

10 Mr. Kay's hoped-for top 20 may be unrealistic. I mention that for this

11 reason: These intercepts are likely to show by categories, say, the

12 following four things: At least association amongst members of the joint

13 criminal enterprise, political planning, military planning, and

14 execution. And although the Chamber excluded in its most recent ruling on

15 witnesses, and quite understandably in light of the way we couched the

16 application, it excluded an expert to analyse material of this type or

17 other documents. It may be when the Chamber considers, for example, the

18 sample or the final document, which will be ever so much larger, that it

19 will conclude that there may be advantage in having an expert group the

20 material in a report before it goes to the process of trying to exclude

21 some as relevant and some as irrelevant.

22 JUDGE MAY: By an expert?

23 MR. NICE: An expert, a witness who can prepare a report. You may

24 remember in the last application for witnesses we prepared an in-house

25 analyst available to look at certain categories of documents, one of which

Page 30298

1 was intercepts and one of which was Supreme Defence Council documents, and

2 we explained that of course the problem with such a witness is that

3 cross-examination of the witness would be difficult to contain.

4 Nevertheless -- and indeed the Chamber rejected the application for such a

5 witness. But it may be when you look at, either in this sample form or in

6 the final form, the clear prima facie value of this material in giving

7 context and depth of understanding to the relationship between these

8 parties, that the Chamber might take the view that a report that scheduled

9 the material in some way before the conclusion of the Prosecution case

10 coming from a witness who could be cross-examined might be helpful. But

11 I'll return to that if necessary later, but in any event, this guides you

12 as to what you're likely to receive.

13 On the topic of authenticity in light of the observations made by

14 Mr. Kay and by the accused, first of all, the witness gave an account of

15 the history of the intercepts right from the day or the date when their

16 reference number was first generated right up until production, and alert

17 to the possibility that this type of point might be taken at this stage,

18 in re-examination I asked of him: "Just yes or no, have you ensured that

19 the copies provided to the OTP are true copies of the original," or the

20 originals, to which he said, "Yes." So that the evidence is complete that

21 these are documents traced for their history from their creation through

22 to the moment when true copies were provided to the OTP. So that aspect

23 of authenticity is really established on the evidence.

24 And I turn to the other aspect of authenticity, which is the

25 suggestion of falsification by creation. In the course of the accused's

Page 30299

1 cross-examination, the Chamber may recall that I invited him through the

2 Chamber to identify any that he was asserting was so falsified. This was

3 at a time in his cross-examination when he was actually adopting some of

4 the intercepted transcripts, or the transcripts of intercepts, and looking

5 at matters of context. He declined to identify any, save one to which

6 I'll turn in a minute, and therefore, there is nothing from the

7 questioning that suggests any reason to doubt any of the intercepts at

8 this stage. Eventually, as I think nearly a last question, the accused

9 identified one for which the date was incorrect, but of course the error

10 in the date was something that the witness had picked up and had already

11 noticed in the schedule himself.

12 That position, therefore, is to be contrasted with the following

13 potential position: If you had transcripts of intercepts which had some

14 manifest internal inconsistencies or incompatibilities, that might be

15 enough to raise the sort of doubt at this stage which would justify

16 involving the scientists and all that that involves, but that hasn't been

17 sought or achieved by either the accused or the amici, and accordingly the

18 evidence is at this stage unbroken. It simply is: This is what I found,

19 this is the records of it, this is what I did with it, and true copies

20 have come in full to the Chamber.

21 As I think Your Honour suggested, things may change if and when

22 witnesses say, "Well, that is me. Part of that is true, but part of that

23 has been deliberately falsified." And that may then bring us to the

24 position we found ourselves in in the case of Kordic. But it's premature

25 in the extreme to think of asking an expert to look into all these

Page 30300

1 intercepts at this stage.

2 I venture to ask, and I'm grateful to Mr. Ruxton for the analogy

3 for so asking this rhetorical question: If the accused were to put in

4 issue by a single question each and every document, should we take all of

5 them to document examiners to search for falsification? The answer is, of

6 course, no.

7 Finally on the subject of authentication, it ought to be borne in

8 mind that not only have some of these intercepts been adopted by witnesses

9 in court at the earlier stage of their being dealt with when they were

10 produced for identification in certain cases, but some of these

11 intercepts, as we know, were made public and leaked at the time.

12 Your Honours, can I then just deal with, in a couple of minutes

13 that are available to me, the other points that have been raised.

14 89(E) is simply, in our respectful submission, wholly premature.

15 The proposition that documents can be created is one that is easily made

16 and I don't say never, but rarely actually evidenced. In this trial,

17 apart from what may have been heard about the well-known Spegelj tapes and

18 the dispute that exists about them, the dispute of a rather different

19 kind, there has been simply no evidence.

20 The possibility of creation is, of course, extremely remote when

21 you consider how difficult it would be and how improbable it would be on

22 the evidence to create things in advance of there being found without any

23 plan for their being found, without there being any intended use at the

24 moment of their being found that they should be used, because that is the

25 evidence that the Chamber has, and I realise that we are in open session

Page 30301

1 and therefore am being cautious.

2 The other issues apart from authentication I think is the legality

3 of the taking of the intercepts. This is covered in our pleading. It is

4 covered also in Brdjanin, and it's covered as well in a response before

5 this Chamber from the Krajisnik Prosecution, dated September 2002. I've

6 currently mislaid my version of it, but that's the date. Yes, sorry, 27th

7 of September, 2002.

8 From the Brdjanin judgement, which is helpfully full and to which

9 I can therefore refer very briefly, paragraph 58 makes this observation in

10 its last sentence, apart from an observation it's made before, it says:

11 "The Trial Chamber wishes to make it clear that it is beyond its mandate

12 to adjudicate foreign constitutional questions and address issues which

13 arise as a result of the succession of states. Such an exercise will not

14 be undertaken in this decision."

15 That observation, of course, being made in respect of the conflict

16 or the difference asserted by the accused between the position of the

17 witness - I'm just reviewing whether I can still deal with this in open

18 session; I think I can - that the matter was entirely covered and

19 satisfactorily by federal law contrary to the assertion that the matter

20 was to be regulated and thus outlawed by republican law. And I hope

21 that's an adequate identifying summary of the position unless the Chamber

22 wants me to go further.

23 But also in the Brdjanin judgement, at paragraph 60, and as the

24 Chamber knows this was on a very similar if not identical evidential base,

25 their conclusion -- I note that the judgement -- the decision was public.

Page 30302

1 "The Trial Chamber considers the submissions of the Prosecution in favour

2 of legality is strong enough to be accepted --" deals with the first

3 authorisation, the amendment of the law, not yet abrogating 39 of the

4 Bosnia-Herzegovina Law on Internal Affairs, deals with the second

5 authorisation saying that the position is not exactly clear, seeming that

6 efforts to --

7 THE INTERPRETER: Could you please slow down? Could counsel be

8 asked to slow down?

9 JUDGE KWON: You are asked to be slower in reading.

10 MR. NICE: I'm so sorry. I pick it up.

11 It would appear that they had not been concluded because of the

12 situation in the country at the time which was already rapidly approaching

13 that of armed conflict. There is, in addition to this, the existing

14 constitution of the federal SFRY which, as submitted by the Prosecution,

15 would have provided such authorisation with legality. For these reasons,

16 the Trial Chamber finds no basis for declaring that the intercepts in

17 question were illegally obtained, and then goes on to explain how it is of

18 the opinion that the matter of legality doesn't arise as determinative.

19 So in this case, with the evidence clearly before you, there is an

20 understanding of legality by those operating the procedures under -- the

21 legality being under the federal law and fully articulated in the

22 statement, that covers indeed the period up and until April, May of 1992

23 in any event, for even if there was a required change of law, there was a

24 year's period for harmonisation. And after April 1992, as I think the

25 Prosecution submission in Krajisnik reveals and as is well known, the

Page 30303

1 position had changed so that the crisis of actual war occurred, justifying

2 a different approach without such close regard to any restrictive law.

3 And, Your Honour, that's probably how best we can end it. I adopt

4 in fact the summary from Krajisnik pleading, although it matches very

5 closely the summary in our own, but because it may not have been before

6 you before coming in today, I will draw it from Krajisnik. And on

7 legality, all pre-war intercepts were in accordance with the statutory

8 framework. The statutory framework itself was in accordance with the

9 republican constitution, the intercepts should not be excluded under Rule

10 95 because the requirements for Rule 95 have simply not been established

11 or even necessarily alleged. Admissibility under domestic law does not

12 determine whether evidence should be excluded under Rule 95, and admitting

13 evidence doesn't constitute approval by the Trial Chamber of the manner in

14 which that evidence was obtained. That, I think, coming from something

15 said by His Honour Judge May. ECHR jurisprudence doesn't support the

16 contention that illegally intercepted evidence should be suppressed.

17 And I adopt gratefully the citation of His Honour Judge May,

18 spoken of by Mr. Kay earlier, evidence obtained by eavesdropping on an

19 enemy's telephone calls during the course of war is certainly not within

20 the conduct which is referred to in Rule 95. It is not antithetical to

21 and would not seriously damage the integrity of the proceedings.

22 So in summary: Authentic, genuine on the evidence, appropriate

23 for admission now, prima facie lawful; even if unlawful in any degree, by

24 no means to be excluded.

25 [Trial Chamber confers]

Page 30304

1 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Tapuskovic.

2 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I am sorry for

3 taking the floor after Mr. Kay, but I will only take two minutes with

4 additional argument.

5 Of course I would refrain from adding anything new after what

6 Mr. Kay said, but I think, Your Honours, that we need to read very

7 carefully the statement of a witness who appeared before us a few days ago

8 stating that the complete documentation regarding intercepts was compiled

9 only two years ago. Some intercepts that were made available to the

10 Prosecution in 2000 were shortened, abbreviated, and it was only two years

11 ago that complete documentation was established by that witness in

12 relation to intercepts.

13 I think you should carefully weigh his evidence regarding this

14 documentation, because he started working with it in 1996 and completed it

15 only in 1990 -- only two years ago. And he said that material had been

16 handled by various groups, which does cast a doubt on the authenticity of

17 the material. That's all I wanted to say. Thank you.

18 JUDGE MAY: Very well.

19 MR. NICE: One other matter: The witness next Monday is a witness

20 for whom you were seeking a statement. I have, I think, the final version

21 but may be subject to minor amendment but in any event will be an unsigned

22 draft because the witness and his written material don't come together

23 very often. It's all dealt with in a rather complicated way. I know

24 you're anxious to have it so that you can deal with it. I understand you

25 may be. Would it be helpful to have it before the lunch break so --

Page 30305

1 rather than later, or is the end of the day satisfactory?

2 MR. NICE: Yes, now I think would be helpful.

3 MR. NICE: I'll ensure it does.

4 JUDGE MAY: Thank you very much. We will adjourn now for an hour

5 and a half, so it will be just after 2.00 we'll sit again.

6 --- Luncheon recess taken at 12.40 p.m.

7 --- On resuming at 2.15 p.m.

8 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Mr. Milosevic.

9 WITNESS: MEHMED MUSIC [Resumed]

10 [Witness answered through interpreter]

11 Cross-examined by Mr. Milosevic: [Continued]

12 Q. [Interpretation] You interrupted me, Mr. Nice. I wanted to ask

13 you, Mr. Music, since in paragraph 2 of the first statement you said that

14 it was the 20th May that they entered your house after the fighting, and

15 in paragraph 19 of the second statement you said there was shelling on the

16 15th of May, your house was targeted ten times but not hit. And then in

17 paragraph 2 of your first statement you speak about the two Pragas that

18 targeted the woods above the village. These are discrepancies between the

19 statements regarding the attack you are testifying about. How do you

20 explain that?

21 A. Well, I'll explain it by saying that they first tested us, whether

22 we would respond to this provocation, and we did dig out that trench just

23 to trick them so that they wouldn't target houses. And we sent a man to

24 go up there and just walk about, to make them believe that there was

25 somebody out there. And we were sharing this road with Serbs who used to

Page 30306

1 be our neighbours but never will be again because they can't. We trusted

2 them, but we were afraid from reservists in Blazuj because we watched them

3 going out towards the horse stables where the prison used to be.

4 Q. Leave that alone. That's a civilian prison. You say that your

5 village was shelled and you were shelled so hard that you couldn't leave

6 your home.

7 A. Yes, of course they did.

8 Q. Did they shell the village or the woods?

9 A. Between the 15th and the 16th, first they shelled houses, and then

10 when they wanted to surround us, they shelled everything, buildings and

11 everything to intimidate us. And later when they captured us, they

12 wouldn't let us leave the house. And that was this Milan Elcic who worked

13 with me for 15 years.

14 And then later when the shooting began, to avoid them shooting

15 each other, we were shepherded to Alija Music's house.

16 Q. Very well. You explained that already. So all the three are

17 correct. All the three statements you made are correct?

18 A. Of course.

19 Q. Why, then, in the first statement you never mentioned a heavy

20 shelling of your village? You talk only about encirclement and the

21 fighting you had with the local Serbs you referred to as Chetniks.

22 A. Well, listen, how can we fight with rifles against tanks? That's

23 nonsense, rubbish.

24 Q. That's not what I'm asking you. I'm asking why there is no heavy

25 shelling in your first statement?

Page 30307

1 A. What do you mean?

2 JUDGE MAY: He doesn't follow your point, and I'm by no means

3 certain it's clear or correct. His first statement begins: "Immediately

4 after the outbreak of hostilities in the region of the village the village

5 was occasionally shelled," and he goes on to deal with it.

6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes. But in the first statement

7 there is no reference to heavy shelling that would prevent him from ever

8 leaving his home. He didn't say that his house was targeted.

9 JUDGE MAY: Well, if it's a point of any significance, we have it.

10 Shall we move on to something else.

11 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

12 Q. Already in paragraphs 23 and 24 of your second statement you say

13 shelling lasted for three days. That's the second statement. In the

14 first statement, it sounds something like occasion, occasionally or

15 occasional shelling. And then you say in the second statement that after

16 that, the Chetniks entered Musici.

17 A. I answered this already.

18 Q. Since you say in the second statement that the shelling lasted

19 three days, how many villagers were killed?

20 A. Nobody was killed because they didn't dare to move around.

21 Q. All right. So nobody was killed.

22 A. Only my two uncles and a relative were killed on the 20th of May.

23 Q. But not during the shelling.

24 A. No.

25 Q. Although the whole village was shelled, including your house.

Page 30308

1 A. They were not able to hit my house because they were tricked by

2 the orchard. They hit on the left and right but not the house. And the

3 experts may come and see the second shell that fell. It was never

4 extracted. It's soft ground filled by water.

5 Q. In paragraph 14 of your second statement you say that before that

6 alleged attack on the village, you Muslims from Musici village went out to

7 dig trenches in the woods around the village -- above the village.

8 A. Of course we did.

9 Q. And that's when the occasional shelling took place but not on the

10 village but on the trenches.

11 A. On the 15th there was shelling of the trenches. That's how it

12 began. In order to prevent them from shelling the villages where some

13 elderly people, children, and about 20, 25 of us remained, we dug those

14 trenches.

15 Q. Why did you dig the trenches in the first place if you wanted to

16 break out of the village?

17 A. Well, they did not make it possible for us to break out because we

18 didn't stand a chance. Thirty civilians had already been killed with

19 their throat cuts near Mount Igman, trying to escape.

20 Q. In the second statement, paragraph 13, you state that you were not

21 doing anything, you were just exercising great caution. There were about

22 35 of you who had organised yourselves into a patrol, and you stood guard

23 over the houses. Is that correct?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Now look at what you stated in the second paragraph of your first

Page 30309

1 statement. It is ERN number, in the English version, 02918212. You say

2 that these men, and you named them, occasionally came to your house. They

3 wanted to find out how we were armed, how deliveries were made, if we were

4 visited by Vahid Alilovic, and in addition to your interviews, you

5 mentioned the name of the interviewers, Gacic and others, and they wanted

6 in particular to find out about the Browning which had remained hidden in

7 the village. Is that correct?

8 A. When they brought us in, all the Muslims, they would ask us if we

9 had a Browning or a light machine-gun or a radio transmitter. I suppose

10 it's just tactics. If I had any of these things I would have never been

11 captured.

12 Q. Tell me, did you have those Brownings or did you have these arms

13 deliveries or not? You say they questioned you about light machine-guns

14 or heavy weaponry and now you state that you didn't have any of these

15 things. You didn't?

16 A. No, I did not.

17 Q. Very well. Now, you say in the second statement -- all of a

18 sudden you remembered something that you failed to mention in the first

19 statement, and that Arkan's men. You don't mention Arkan's men in the

20 first statement. JNA soldiers, soldiers with red berets. How come you

21 didn't remember them in the first statement?

22 A. How could I remember? If I didn't see something, I can't talk

23 about it.

24 Q. Well, how come in the second statement you refer to Arkan's men,

25 to JNA soldiers, Red Berets, et cetera?

Page 30310

1 A. Red Berets -- sorry, Arkan's men came when we were down in the

2 garages. I had to go on the 22nd to do some loading in a town nearby.

3 Another 14 of our -- of us were taken to storage houses made of concrete

4 to do the loading. When we came back, I saw people beaten up. I saw a

5 man named Hasanovic in tears. I thought that he was just afraid because

6 he was brought in --

7 Q. I didn't ask you that, Mr. Music. I asked you about your first

8 statement where you make no reference to JNA soldiers, Arkan's men, or Red

9 Berets. In the second statement, you mentioned all the three. How come

10 there is no reference to them in the first statement and then several

11 years later all of a sudden you remember them all when you give the second

12 statement?

13 A. That was earlier in that garage in Lukavica.

14 Q. After the exchange was when you gave the first statement. In the

15 first statement you didn't mention them, and in the second statement you

16 gave to the investigators, you miraculously remembered them.

17 A. It must be the fault of the interpreter. They didn't interpret it

18 correctly.

19 Q. Ah, well. The question -- the interpreter was to blame.

20 Q. You say that Adil Music and another Music were killed in fighting

21 with local Serbs when somebody threw a bomb into the garage after brief

22 fighting.

23 A. Yes. They hit us with Osa and Zolja hand-held rocket launchers.

24 I didn't see them dying. They had planted misinformation that these

25 brothers had killed each other, and that was not correct.

Page 30311

1 Q. They fought with local Serbs and that's how they lost their lives.

2 A. No. They were killed in their house.

3 Q. So there was no fighting.

4 A. They had only simple, personal firearms. How could they fight

5 Pragas and rocket launchers? We were encircled.

6 Q. Very well. Mr. Music, you claim so in both statements. You were

7 arrested by Tomo Elcic and Milan Elcic?

8 A. Correct.

9 Q. In the first statement you say that when you were arrested, they

10 also arrested Adil Music, Zaim Music, and Miralem Music in a house next

11 door.

12 A. Adil Music was forced to go inside, and another Music was forced

13 to call out for his brother. They had gone to Hadzici to buy cigarettes

14 because we were not allowed to move around. There were checkpoints and

15 they would have been killed as the others were.

16 Q. Very well. In the second statement you say that in addition to

17 you another person was arrested in your house; Miro Isic. Where is it in

18 that statement?

19 A. It's Mirsad Isic, my brother-in-law who had come to look for his

20 brother. His brother and another seven people.

21 Q. That's not what I'm asking you. I'm asking why you didn't mention

22 him in the first statement.

23 A. I probably omitted it. But you have it in my statement that he

24 had come to look for his brother because he was arrested in the barracks

25 together with another seven Bosniaks who were trying to pull out.

Page 30312

1 Q. So you simply forgot to mention him in the first statement?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Very well. Tell me now, after you were arrested, you were taken

4 to Alija Music's house where you personally saw -- and then you enumerate

5 these people, a whole list. I don't have to read it out to you.

6 A. You don't have to.

7 Q. Were they all your neighbours?

8 A. Not all of them.

9 Q. But you named them all here.

10 A. Yes, because I know them. Those who are first on the list are my

11 neighbours who my grandfather saved in the war before, and they were

12 grateful to us, and in this war they were all killed, in Lukavica and

13 elsewhere.

14 Q. What about the rest?

15 A. They are from Drazdovi [phoen], where my mother comes from, and we

16 have a piece of land there, so I know all these people.

17 Q. So all of them are local people whom you knew?

18 A. Yes. That's who was there when I was arrested.

19 Q. You say you were first held in Hadzici and then in that car

20 mechanic shop.

21 A. They forced us inside with the intention of executing us.

22 Milosevic brothers, they are twin brothers, and there was also Duka who

23 used to work in a book shop.

24 Q. First you were in the school building detained and then they took

25 you to this car mechanic's shop.

Page 30313

1 A. Yes. When we arrived, there was already a Croat person there.

2 Q. You also mention a certain Momo Stanimirovic and another person

3 named Milos. Are they also from your area?

4 A. Momo Stanimirovic is from Serbia. He is also from Serbia. And I

5 know when Kasim Dermisevic and Sehic, he has two last names, he told us

6 that it was this Stanimirovic who beat him up. We had to feed him through

7 a straw. They just threw him on the ground. He lay there on the pallets.

8 He was not able to move. He was beaten by those two men.

9 Q. You know their full names, this Milos Cerovina, is he also from

10 your area?

11 A. Milos Cerovina?

12 Q. Yes.

13 A. He was from Cerovik. And when they took us to the toilets to beat

14 us up --

15 Q. I'm only asking if he's a local resident.

16 A. Yes. His sister worked with me in the Coca Cola company.

17 Q. From that garage they took you to a sports hall.

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. And in the first statement, paragraph 3, you say that the warden

20 was a certain Momo Vujovic, and then you gave the names of Ignjatovic,

21 Mihajlovic, Kuzman --

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. -- Djokic, Krajisnik. They were the guards. All of them without

24 any exceptions are from your area; isn't that right?

25 A. Momo Vujovic worked with me for 15 years in Coca Cola.

Page 30314

1 Q. I'm not asking about any one of them individually. All these

2 people I mentioned are from your area; is that right?

3 A. This Djokic is not from our area.

4 Q. Where is he from?

5 A. I can't say.

6 Q. All right. When you're talking about what happened at the sports

7 hall in Hadzici, you say that among the persons present you recognised a

8 certain Fific and a certain Ljilja, a music teacher; is that right?

9 A. I didn't recognise him. He was recognised by a Bosniak called

10 Salihic. I don't know his first name. He was in camp with us later. And

11 he was in a privileged position. He's the only one who they didn't beat.

12 He kept him and he said all the others should be killed, all this scum

13 except for you.

14 Q. So this Fific and Ljilja, you call them Chetniks on this page.

15 A. There were others who came with them who had cream on their faces,

16 gloves, what have you, not --

17 Q. But in paragraph 46 you call them Arkan's people, don't you?

18 A. That's what Momo Vujovic said to us. We said, Why did you let

19 them beat us? We know each other. There was Sohic Ibro, a colleague who

20 was also there with me. He said, How do we dare stand up to them, or how

21 do we dare stand up to Seselj's men? They're going to kill us all.

22 Q. However in your second statement you say that you did not know

23 Fific from earlier on and that he told you that these were Arkan's men.

24 A. How could I know him?

25 Q. So finally, who are these people; Arkan's men, Chetniks? What are

Page 30315

1 they?

2 A. For me, they were hoodlums. That's what they were. They did the

3 most terrible things. You just read up about all of that.

4 Q. In your first statement you did not mention Arkan's men. Did

5 somebody suggest to you that these may have been Arkan's men?

6 A. I've already told you. The first time, on the 22nd of May when I

7 come back, they beat up Adem Nuhanovic [phoen] and his son. Adem died and

8 his son is a sick person now because of all -- everything that he

9 suffered. This young boy was 16.

10 Q. I'm just asking you, Mr. Music, who made the suggestion to you

11 that these were Arkan's men?

12 A. The guards said so.

13 Q. Oh, the guards?

14 A. Yes, because of course they didn't say, "We are from so-and-so."

15 Q. How long were you detained and where were you in Lukavica?

16 A. At the Slavisa Vajner Cica barracks in Lukavica from 1.00 onwards.

17 We spent the night there.

18 Q. Tell me, why do you not mention in the first statement this

19 military barracks Slavisa Vajner Cica?

20 A. What do you mean I didn't mention it?

21 Q. Well, I didn't see it in your statement. Maybe I made a mistake,

22 but nowhere in your first statement did I manage to find any military

23 barracks called Slavisa Vajner Cica.

24 A. I was not the only person there. 280 people were there.

25 Q. I'm not asking you that. I'm asking you why you did not mention

Page 30316

1 the military barracks or the soldiers in your first statement. What was

2 the date when you were detained there in the military barracks?

3 A. The 22nd of June, 1992.

4 Q. Well were these members of the army of Republika Srpska or the JNA

5 on the 22nd of June?

6 A. The 22nd of June?

7 Q. Yes.

8 A. The members of the JNA. And the berets were there, those guys

9 from Serbia.

10 Q. All right. In paragraph 75 of your second statement you say that

11 on -- or, rather, you said that on the 22nd of June, JNA soldiers were in

12 Lukavica in the military barracks near Sarajevo. And in paragraph 75 of

13 your second statement, you describe the mistreatment that you were

14 subjected to you, you and your brother Miralem.

15 A. That was on the 23rd of June in the morning.

16 Q. All right. You do not mention that at all in your first

17 statement?

18 A. What do you mean I don't mention it in my first statement? I

19 can't forget that.

20 Q. Can you show me where you mention it in your first statement?

21 A. I don't know where the first statement is. You find it.

22 Q. Since I cannot find it, I'm asking you. I have the first

23 statement, but you do not refer to the mistreatment.

24 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, maybe I can be of

25 assistance. This is in this version dated the 18th of April, paragraph 5

Page 30317

1 of the English version; and the Serb version, Mr. Music, page 3, the last

2 paragraph.

3 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

4 Q. That's in the second statement.

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm sorry, what did you say it was?

6 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] The place that you referred to

7 where your brother was mentioned, the third page, the last paragraph,

8 where these persons were separated when you were singled out too. That is

9 where it should be found.

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] But it's not there. I talk about

11 Ilidza.

12 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

13 Q. Let's not waste any time. It can be seen from the text.

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And then, as you stated, they swore at you, they beat you. You

16 say you were beaten by officers. One of them wore a cap from the Lika

17 area because you recognised the coat of arms of Lika on it. Is that what

18 you stated?

19 A. He was from Serbia because I did my military service in Serbia at

20 Pantelej Bubanj, so I know that.

21 Q. Do you know where Lika is, though?

22 A. Listen, I know Serbo-Croat, and I know how people speak in Serbia.

23 He was swearing, everything he could think of.

24 Q. Wait a minute. You say that he was from Lika and that he wore a

25 cap from Lika. Does he talk the way people from Serbia talk or the way

Page 30318

1 people from Lika talk?

2 A. He was from Serbia. I'm 100 per cent sure. One was a Montenegrin

3 officer.

4 Q. But he was not from Lika.

5 A. He did not tell me where he was from. I didn't dare look at him.

6 Q. What does this coat of arms of Lika look like, the one you say you

7 recognised?

8 A. Well, look, you're really going into details now.

9 Q. But you say that you saw the coat of arms of Lika. What does it

10 look like?

11 JUDGE MAY: Yes, he said it. Now, let's move on.

12 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

13 Q. All right, this man who wore this cap from Lika and the coat of

14 arms of Lika, which army did he belong to; can you tell me that?

15 A. I know he was commander of the Red Berets, nothing else, because

16 he kicked me later on. He kicked me in the rear, and he cursed my balija

17 mother. He used the kind of words that people use in Serbia. He spoke

18 Ekavian. I mean, come on. They worked with me in Germany for five years,

19 people from Serbia and all of that. I mean, I have no reason to lie. Why

20 would I say that they killed someone if I did not see that?

21 Q. Now look at paragraph 79, 80, and 82. You mention JNA officers,

22 don't you?

23 A. JNA soldiers came in and they said, "Who beat you?" And they were

24 the ones who were in front of the doors, and they were not supposed to let

25 anyone in. And when we were all beaten up and covered with blood, they

Page 30319

1 said, "Who beat you?" And then they were using expletives. I don't want

2 to say that here.

3 And then in Lukavica I spent three nights actually.

4 Q. These soldiers you mentioned here, they did not beat you, right?

5 A. Soldiers did not beat us; it's the Red Berets who beat us.

6 Q. Wait a minute. They were with the soldiers. The soldiers did not

7 beat you and then these men who were with the soldiers did beat you. Is

8 that what you're trying to say?

9 A. Yes. They beat up my brother. He was half dead. I carried him

10 in my own arms.

11 Q. All right. Tell me something else, please: Were these JNA

12 soldiers and they did not beat you? That's what you said. Or were they

13 soldiers of the army of Republika Srpska?

14 A. JNA soldiers. They were in the hallway there and they were

15 supervising us. However, they allowed these people who wore berets to get

16 in and beat us, as well as Arkan's men. And they were supposed to protect

17 us, guard us, but this was some kind of a trick. You know what that's

18 like, it was a kind of a game.

19 Q. Oh, so it was a game; one group was beating you and others were

20 trying to rescue you.

21 A. Yes, like you and Kosovo.

22 Q. Mr. Music, in paragraph 117, you say that you were a member of the

23 Commission for the Exchange of War Prisoners for the municipality of

24 Hadzici from November 20, 1992 until June 30, 1996.

25 A. Yes.

Page 30320

1 Q. I imagine that while you worked for this commission you gathered a

2 great deal of information about missing persons; isn't that right?

3 A. I wouldn't like to talk about this information.

4 Q. But do you have this information?

5 A. It is not for me to give it to you.

6 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Milosevic, five minutes left.

7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] No need, Mr. May. I don't even need

8 those five minutes.

9 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

10 Q. I'm just asking you, Mr. Music, how can we trust the information

11 of that commission when you said so many contradictory things while you

12 were making these statements here?

13 JUDGE MAY: That's a pure matter -- that's a pure matter of

14 comment. The witness doesn't have to answer. Is there anything else you

15 want to ask?

16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] No. No, nothing. Thank you,

17 Mr. May.

18 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

19 Questioned by Mr. Tapuskovic:

20 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Music?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Could you give another explanation in relation to your statement

23 dated the 18th of April. If I understood you correctly a few minutes ago,

24 you said that in this statement there was no mention of Arkan's men or of

25 the Red Berets because that was mistranslated; is that right?

Page 30321

1 A. On the 18th of April?

2 Q. Yes.

3 A. I don't know what you're talking about the 18th of April. Why are

4 you talking about that?

5 Q. On the 8th of April, 1993, you gave your first statement. That is

6 very close to the events that you describe.

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. And on the 18th of April, 1993, nowhere in this statement

9 absolutely do you make any reference to Arkan's men or the Red Berets, and

10 it is even more interesting to note that nowhere did you mention members

11 of the Yugoslav People's Army. You only talked about Chetniks. Look at

12 page 3, for example. I did the counting; you mentioned Chetniks 12 times,

13 and you never mentioned the soldiers of the JNA or Arkan's men or the Red

14 Berets. How can you explain that to the Judges that on the 18th of April,

15 1993, you absolutely did not mention them?

16 A. I didn't mention the 12th of April to you either of 1992 when 52

17 trucks came from Serbia, and in front of them were two tanks and two

18 armoured vehicles and two combat vehicles. They drove through Hadzici and

19 they went through the factory there, and then they went towards Crnovica

20 [phoen] --

21 Q. Mr. Music, that's not what I asked you.

22 A. Well, just a minute, but I haven't told you about that either.

23 And that's the main thing. And nobody dared stop them because they said,

24 "We are doing whatever we want to do and whichever way we want to do it."

25 Q. I'm sorry, Mr. Music, but we haven't got much time. You gave this

Page 30322

1 statement to the authorities of Bosnia-Herzegovina. This is the statement

2 that you gave to the security services of Bosnia-Herzegovina. You

3 explained all these things to them, everything that you experienced,

4 everything that you went through, and you never mentioned Arkan's men or

5 the Red Berets or the members of the JNA anywhere.

6 A. It cannot be.

7 Q. All right. Look at the statement you gave on the 16th in the

8 month of June to the OTP. Now, what year was this? We don't know. Never

9 mind.

10 Look at paragraphs 16 and 17. You said here that on the 8th of

11 May you saw -- some people, rather, said to you that they saw tanks and

12 then there was serious shooting against you and also that tracers were

13 used. Whose tanks were they, the ones that you mention in your statement

14 to the OTP?

15 A. Well, of the JNA. If I had a tank, I wouldn't be sitting here

16 now.

17 Q. Would you explain this to the Judges, please? How come you never

18 mentioned those tanks in the statement that you gave in April, 1993 and

19 all of a sudden, five years later, you refer to JNA tanks that you never

20 mentioned before?

21 A. Listen, I'm just going to tell you one thing: I don't even like

22 to be reminded of all of this. There are people who have forgotten, even

23 when they were detained or when they got out, and there were people who

24 were asked in prison what their wives names were but they were so starved

25 and so mistreated that they had lost their memory and couldn't even answer

Page 30323

1 that.

2 Q. Thank you. Now please look at paragraph 75. You described in

3 detail to the OTP everything that had to do with your brother. Miralem is

4 your very own brother; right?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. What you said here was: "As I was passing through this hallway, I

7 saw a man who was lying on the ground. They told me to lift him. I saw

8 that it was my brother Miralem. I brought him to a room and we ran the

9 gauntlet in order to get to that room."

10 Q. Is that what you said and is that the way it was?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Now, please look at your statement of the 18th of April.

13 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, that is paragraph 5

14 of that statement in English.

15 Q. You say in that paragraph you did not mention your very own

16 brother anywhere. Nowhere whatsoever. And you did not talk officers, you

17 talked about a Chetnik whose nickname was Crni Mrak, "pitch dark," and he

18 beat you. How do you explain that? How come you never mentioned your

19 very own brother in that statement? Because, after all, one's very own

20 brother is something one cannot forget, especially if he lost his life

21 there.

22 A. My very own brother was dead by then when Crni Mrak beat me. They

23 lined us up. There was so much blood that you could step on. I had to

24 keep my hands up here on my head, like this. And he was taller than me,

25 he weighed a hundred kilos. He was taller than me by a head and I never

Page 30324

1 heard of him again. They took them away. They probably took them to Pale

2 and they burned them down.

3 Q. Well, you don't have to explain this to me. Of course this is

4 your brother, but then on the 18th of April when you were questioned by

5 the security services, you did not talk about this most tragic thing that

6 happened, that your brother lost his life then and there. How do you

7 explain that?

8 A. Well, look, I didn't say that he was dead there. Later on when we

9 talked in camp, we heard about this, I didn't see it.

10 Q. But that's not in your statement either.

11 A. Well, I cannot know where they took him. On the 23rd in the

12 morning, they beat us up and they took 47 people and I was the 48th

13 person.

14 Q. All right. Just one more thing because I haven't got much time.

15 I would like the Honourable Judges to assess this: You talk about Ljilja

16 too who used to teach your daughters at the technical school. She used to

17 teach a particular subject.

18 A. Music.

19 Q. All right. When you mention Ljilja here - that is paragraph 3 of

20 the English version, and you will find it in the first paragraph on page 3

21 - when you talked about Ljilja there, the music teacher who worked in

22 Hadzici, you say Ljilja figured prominently because when any of the

23 detainees would collapse on the floor from the beatings, she would jump on

24 them. Do you remember having stated that?

25 A. It happened right in front of my feet. She was jumping up and

Page 30325

1 down on a man who was 70 years old, and the man cried. It was a terrible

2 thing. Were they drugged? Were they drunk? I don't know what was wrong

3 with them. They brought rifles, knives. What they did to people. I

4 mean, they molested everybody. They made a man walk around the hall and

5 to curse our Turkish mothers.

6 Q. I understand, but look, when you made a statement five years

7 later, you didn't say that any more. You said: "I recognised her because

8 she used to teach my daughters at the technical school in Ilidza. I saw

9 her taking off a man's trousers and telling another man to --" well, do

10 something, something that has to do with sexual intercourse. I don't want

11 to read this now in the interest of public morality. They had to do

12 that.

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. So why did you not state it the first time and why was this heard

15 much later, and other witnesses refer to it here? How come you didn't

16 mention it then?

17 A. Well, look, how can you say that when this neighbour of mine is

18 still alive? And what would it look like if I were to speak about that?

19 Do you understand that?

20 Q. How did she force him to do this? How did --

21 A. She wanted to slit his throat.

22 Q. But you did not talk about this earlier. Then she took off this

23 man's trousers, and of course I'm not going to read this out because the

24 Judges can read it.

25 A. Yes.

Page 30326

1 Q. You did not talk about this earlier, so why are you talking about

2 it now? Could you please explain that?

3 A. What have I got to explain to you? I mentioned everything in my

4 statement and it's for the Judges to decide. It's not for me.

5 Q. That's right. Thank you.

6 MS. PACK: Very quick question in re-examination

7 Re-examined by Ms. Pack:

8 Q. Mr. Music, it's been -- it may be that it's been suggested to you

9 in your questioning by Mr. Tapuskovic and the accused that you have in

10 your June 1997 statement made up what you said about Arkan's men, about

11 the Red Berets, and the JNA tanks, and even the death of your own brother.

12 Is that the case, that you made up this evidence in your June 1997

13 statement?

14 A. Your Honours, Your Honours, I did not make up anything.

15 JUDGE MAY: [Previous translation continues]... matter. That was

16 the question. Yes.

17 You were asked if you made anything up in your evidence to us,

18 Mr. Music. Can you deal with that, please?

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

20 MS. PACK: I have no further questions, Your Honour.

21 JUDGE MAY: Thank you. Mr. Music, that concludes your evidence.

22 Thank you for coming to the International Tribunal to give it. You are

23 now free to go.

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

25 [The witness withdrew]

Page 30327

1 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Mr. Agha, time is rather short, but we'll see

2 what we can do in terms of getting through as much as we can of this

3 witness's evidence. Obviously the quicker you are, the better.

4 MR. AGHA: Yes, Your Honour. I'll try to be.

5 JUDGE MAY: Thank you.

6 MR. AGHA: So the Prosecution would call Witness B-1770, please.

7 Your Honours, I believe he is a protected witness, so if I may ask for the

8 blinds, please. Thank you.

9 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Agha, we can go to 3.40 with this witness. We

10 can't sit beyond that, which may present difficulties in terms of timing.

11 MR. AGHA: I can certainly be through my part very shortly, and if

12 need be, the witness may have to come back, but hopefully we can see what

13 we can do.

14 [The witness entered court]

15 JUDGE MAY: Yes. If the witness would take the declaration.

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

17 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

18 JUDGE MAY: If you'd like to take a seat.

19 WITNESS: WITNESS B-1770

20 [Witness answered through interpreter]

21 Examined by Mr. Agha:

22 Q. Witness B-1770, did you gave a statement to the Office of the

23 Prosecution on the 13th of March, 2002, which is now before you and signed

24 by you?

25 A. Yes. Yes, I did.

Page 30328

1 Q. And is that your name on the front of the statement?

2 A. Yes.

3 MR. AGHA: May I please request the Chamber that this statement be

4 admitted under 89(F) and be assigned an exhibit number.

5 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Exhibit number, please.

6 THE REGISTRAR: 616, Your Honour, under seal.

7 MR. AGHA: Thank you, Your Honours. There is a proofing summary

8 for this witness, but I intend just to very briefly skip over that so we

9 can move along.

10 In essence, this witness was a Bosniak who went to Srebrenica in

11 1993, where he experienced shelling from the Serbian side of the Drina.

12 He then moved along to the Zepa enclave, and after the Srebrenica and Zepa

13 enclaves were taken in July 1995 by the Bosnian Serb forces, he swam over

14 the River Drina and entered into Serbia. On reaching Serbia he was

15 arrested by soldiers of the VJ, Yugoslav Army. He was then taken to two

16 detention facilities but spent a period of about six months in the latter

17 one. Whilst he was in such facility in Serbia, he was given insufficient

18 food, water, he was beaten and was generally maltreated.

19 Now, that, very briefly, is the essence of the witness's evidence,

20 and that is the end of examination-in-chief, Your Honours.

21 JUDGE MAY: Yes. If we could get through the witness,

22 Mr. Milosevic, so much the better. If we can. If we can't, of course,

23 then we will have to adjourn, but let's see how we get on.

24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I will try to make my

25 cross-examination very efficient.

Page 30329

1 Cross-examined by Mr. Milosevic:

2 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. B-1770, in the first paragraph of your

3 statement you say that you decided to testify here because you were very

4 angry when you heard that I stated here that we had saved 8 to 900

5 Muslims. I suppose you mean that brigade that swam across the Drina River

6 and were admitted by our authorities who took care of them. Is that why

7 you came here? Is that what made you angry?

8 A. I was not angry, I was indignant because I know how we were

9 admitted and treated in that camp in Mitrovica.

10 Q. The fact that you -- our authorities did admit that brigade of

11 yours, which I think counted 840 people, if I remember correctly, is

12 something different. You gave your statement on the 11th, 12th, and 13th

13 of March, 2002 and less than a month before that proceedings started here

14 concerning Kosovo not Bosnia-Herzegovina. How come that you heard this

15 piece of evidence or my statement at that time?

16 A. I read somewhere this statement where you said that you saved 8 to

17 900 people from the Zepa enclave and you talked about some sort of

18 admission centre, and I know exactly how it was.

19 Q. That is easy to establish, because the entire international press

20 corps visited the men from that brigade and all that was stated was stated

21 in the presence of international media representatives. I'm asking you

22 how is it possible that you were indignant on the 11th of March when the

23 proceedings here were only about Kosovo? There was no mention of Zepa,

24 Bosnia, or anything of the kind.

25 A. I heard your statement on television in which you said that you

Page 30330

1 had rescued 8 to 900 men, including me, but I know exactly what kind of

2 rescue that was.

3 Q. That's precisely what I'm asking you. How were you able to know

4 that before the 11th of March when the proceedings here concerned only

5 Kosovo?

6 A. There was talk about Srebrenica as well.

7 Q. Never mind. That's easy to establish. Can you remember, perhaps,

8 when I made that statement? How long was it between that statement and

9 your indignation?

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 then. And they told me you can only go there and say so on the spot.

13 They gave me the telephone number of Tribunal, and I called and applied to

14 testify.

15 Q. That could not have been your motive because there was no talk

16 about Bosnia then. That was, however, the first reason you gave.

17 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Milosevic, let's not waste too much time arguing

18 about this kind of point. He's given his reason and given his

19 explanation.

20 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well. I hope it is not in

21 dispute that this explanation cannot be truthful.

22 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

23 Q. I'm interested in the second motivation you allege here for your

24 decision to testify and that is that you had no freedom of movement

25 because you are not allowed to go back to the place where you used to

Page 30331

1 live.

2 A. That's correct.

3 Q. Mr. 1770, where are you residing now? Where did you live when you

4 gave that statement to the investigators in March 2002?

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted) tell me, who is it who

7 restricted your freedom of movement and did not allow you to go back to

8 where you used to live?

9 A. Your co-combatants, the people who live there, the people who

10 expelled me.

11 Q. So after the war, you were not able to go back to your hometown?

12 A. I did not. I did not dare to. And even now I don't dare to.

13 Q. Why?

14 A. Because I have been through all kinds of things during the war in

15 Bosnia-Herzegovina. The consequences are still there, and some people

16 have come to positions they should not have occupied.

17 Q. I'm trying to understand your motivation. Your real motivation

18 does not seem to be to coincide with the reason you state here. Is it

19 true that you came back to Bosnia in August 1996? (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 30332

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 Q. Is my impression correct that you were in fact forced to do that

18 job? You did not do it of your own free will? You were designated,

19 assigned to that job?

20 A. I was not assigned. I was hard up for money, I had no job, and I

21 had to earn money somehow to keep my family alive.

22 Q. Were you perhaps designated to do this job because you were

23 treated by the BH army as a deserter precisely because in July 1995 you

24 deserted and found refuge in Serbia?

25 A. I did not desert. We were expelled. All of us from the enclave

Page 30333

1 of Zepa and the enclave of Srebrenica were driven out. We were not

2 deserters and were not treated as such.

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 A. Yes, it was in 1999.

7 Q. And you say that you got an eviction order to leave the house

8 which you occupied.

9 A. Yes. I received this eviction order. I had to live in this

10 abandoned house. I had no other way, except to Republika Srpska where I

11 did not dare go.

12 Q. But that was in the area controlled by the Federation of Bosnia

13 and Herzegovina, so it was the Muslims who expelled you.

14 A. No, it was not the Muslims, it was the rules.

15 Q. Okay. The rules. Then in the year 2000 you asked for asylum and

16 you left Bosnia and Herzegovina.

17 A. Correct.

18 Q. So you and your family did not leave Bosnia and Herzegovina

19 because of Serbs but because of the attitude of your own authorities

20 towards you.

21 A. Sir, in view of the fact that I am from a town called Bijela,

22 which is now within the Serb entity of the former Bosnia-Herzegovina and I

23 was expelled as a non-Serb after all the things I had gone through there

24 under that government and during the war, I shudder at the mere thought of

25 going back. My own child was killed, I don't even know where he is

Page 30334

1 buried.

2 Q. I'm very sorry to hear that, sir. But you were not really

3 expelled from that house in the territory of Republika Srpska, which is

4 what you call a Serb entity. It was in the territory of the Federation,

5 wasn't it?

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 A. There is another reason. Another reason is that I cannot return

20 to my own property, to the place where I used to live and work.

21 Q. But in Bosnia and Herzegovina you are allowed to reside.

22 A. In Bosnia and Herzegovina, yes.

23 Q. And in paragraph 73, you say that you cannot go back to Luka,

24 which is the municipality of Zepa.

25 A. It was in the municipality of Srebrenica, but it belonged to the

Page 30335

1 Zepa enclave.

2 Q. And the reason is fear.

3 A. Great fear.

4 Q. All right. Tell me. Why didn't you go back to some other town in

5 the territory of the Federation of Bosnia and Herzegovina outside of

6 Republika Srpska?

7 A. Sir, the Dayton Accords set such rules to prevent ethnic

8 cleansing. I was a former camp inmate with all the bad experience of

9 living there that I had. I had lived for four years under siege, and even

10 now there are the same troops that had driven us out, and the people who

11 treated us like cattle. I shudder at the mere thought of going back.

12 It's impossible.

13 Q. All right. You claim that you are an expelled person, that you

14 spent time in some sort of camps in Serbia, that you are a person who got

15 injured on a very high-responsibility job that you were doing for the

16 benefit of your own state, and you say you are not allowed to go back to

17 your own country. Why?

18 A. I gave you my reasons.

19 Q. In some of the first paragraphs of your statement where you

20 describe the general situation in the area of Srebrenica, Bratunac, and

21 Luka, where you lived until July 1995, you describe in various ways your

22 fears and misgivings in relation to the Serbs.

23 A. That's true. Radovan Karadzic is still at large.

24 Q. All right. All right. Tell me this: You who were so afraid of

25 Serbs in Bosnia, you say the terrible things happened there, and of course

Page 30336

1 war is a terrible thing. How come that you decided to go to Serbia and

2 seek cover and refuge there?

3 A. Sir, I made that decision together with a man who worked for an

4 enterprise in Serbia. We made our plans together, and we planned to pass

5 unnoticed via Macedonia.

6 Q. Does that mean that you were not together with that brigade that

7 swam across the Drina River and who were admitted by our authorities?

8 A. It was not a brigade. It was men, women, and children.

9 Q. So you were not a part of that brigade that was admitted by our

10 authorities after swimming across the Drina River.

11 A. If I had, I would be in the Sljivovica camp in Mitrovo Polje.

12 Q. Never mind. We'll establish that easily. In paragraphs 23 and

13 24, you described the reasons why you decided to leave the Zepa enclave

14 and to go straight to Serbia, where, as you say, you were threatened the

15 most.

16 Tell me, how large were the forces of the army of Bosnia and

17 Herzegovina that were present in Zepa when you decided to leave?

18 A. I don't know. I wasn't there.

19 Q. Tell me, why did you decide to run away from Serbs to Serbia,

20 leaving behind your family, wife and three children, if there were no

21 Serbs in Zepa at that time?

22 A. They arrived. They torched the surrounding villages, came in,

23 transported women and children, and we were left at their mercy. Since it

24 was a UN protected area and the people were disarmed, even the people who

25 used to have weapons, I came across people who had survived the tragedy of

Page 30337

1 Srebrenica, who were going back from the free territory in Tuzla. They

2 told me about the terrible things they had survived, and I had no thought

3 of going to the free territory.

4 Q. Tell me, were you running away from the Serbs or were you running

5 away from the possibility of being mobilised into the army of Bosnia and

6 Herzegovina?

7 A. I was running away from -- from criminals and villains but Serb

8 villains.

9 Q. There were many directions in which you could have run away, but

10 you chose one which was controlled by Serbs, unlike many others. Was it

11 possible to go elsewhere?

12 A. No, not at the time. It wasn't.

13 Q. In paragraph 24, you say that, "I decided to go my own way so as

14 to give at least one of us a chance of surviving."

15 A. I was together with my three brothers, and I heard stories from

16 the survivors of Srebrenica about all the dangers that were awaiting us,

17 and I decided that we should split so that at least some of us should

18 survive, because I was almost certain, 99 per cent certain, that we would

19 all get killed.

20 Q. You wanted to survive, at least some of you, but you had a wife

21 and three children.

22 A. I think that it was on the 25th. They were transported to the

23 free territory.

24 Q. So this happened before you decided to escape to Serbia.

25 A. Yes, that's correct.

Page 30338

1 Q. Do you know that this large group of combatants from the army of

2 Bosnia-Herzegovina, 840 of them who found refuge in Serbia, were motivated

3 by their desire to avoid fighting in the army of Bosnia and Herzegovina

4 any longer?

5 A. Our objective was to stay alive; to find peace somewhere and to

6 stay alive.

7 Q. Very well. In many places in your statement, you refer to torture

8 that you were exposed to in Serbia.

9 A. That's correct.

10 Q. I absolutely assert that it cannot be true. Tell me, when

11 conflicts began in your region, you said that you weighed 85 to 90 kilos.

12 That's in paragraph 5 of your statement. And in the same paragraph, you

13 say that on the 2nd August, 1995, when you were allegedly arrested in

14 Serbia, you weighed 96 kilos.

15 A. Close to that. Close to my arrest.

16 Q. So that's in paragraph 35, not 5. You say that you lost 30 to 35

17 kilos during your detention in Serbia.

18 A. That's correct.

19 Q. Mr. 1770, you were given a permit to travel issued by the High

20 Commissioner of -- High Representative for Refugees in Srebrenica, and

21 your photograph is under tab 2. I won't put it on the ELMO because you're

22 a protected witness, but I would like to draw the attention of all those

23 who can look up tab 2.

24 You gentlemen obviously don't have it.

25 A. I have it.

Page 30339

1 Q. Is that you in the photo?

2 A. I had my passport in my pocket.

3 Q. What it says here, United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees,

4 Provisional Travel Certificate. Is that so?

5 A. Yes, that's correct.

6 Q. Your name is stated here, and then it says, "Office of the Chief

7 of the Mission in Yugoslavia," all your details are indicated and your

8 photograph is here.

9 A. Correct.

10 Q. And you have that document in your pocket?

11 A. I do.

12 Q. Please be so kind to look at it, then. That photograph was taken

13 in early December 1995?

14 A. Correct. In fact, I don't know exactly when it was taken.

15 Q. Well, I suppose it was taken when this paper was issued, around

16 the 8th of December, 1995.

17 A. Yes. Based on this photo, and the details of your height - all

18 this is written in the travel permit - one can calculate very precisely

19 your weight at the time when this photograph was taken. I don't see the

20 face of an emaciated man who had been starved. I see a relatively

21 well-nourished person. Do you have anything to say to this?

22 A. When the people from the Red Cross weighed us, I told them that I

23 had lost a lot of weight. I weighed 50 something kilos. And one of the

24 people who were there told me, "Don't worry, we'll fatten you up." And

25 that's what really happened. Humanitarian aid arrived. They increased

Page 30340

1 our rations, they gave us some ten biscuits of some military-type rations

2 per day, and when it was all over, I was surprised to see how much weight

3 I really gained.

4 Q. So the case as you describe it is that you were first starved,

5 lost a lot of weight, and then gained back some weight before you got this

6 travel permit. Is that what you're saying?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Do you know that your now late President Izetbegovic said, when

9 all of you, the entire brigade, fled to Serbia - and obviously you were

10 not there because you said you went with some other man to Skopje - he

11 said that we should hand you all over to the authorities.

12 A. I did not know that the then-President Alija Izetbegovic asked for

13 us to be returned, because we did not have any communications, any

14 information, no newspapers, radio, nothing. We didn't even dare look

15 around the facilities where we were staying let alone listen to something

16 like that.

17 Q. Well, it's not going to be a problem, these 840 persons.

18 A. No. There was about 950 of them, because there were about 800 in

19 Sljivovica, and others were at the other camp.

20 Q. You mean you were staying at Mount Tara?

21 A. We passed that way.

22 Q. Do you know about this unit that swam across the Drina River? The

23 entire diplomatic corps went to see it on the very next day, after they

24 swam over the Drina River.

25 A. What do you mean diplomatic corps? What is this corps?

Page 30341

1 Q. Diplomats accredited in Belgrade from dozens of embassies.

2 A. That's right, we were visited by them, yes. They came with

3 truncheons. Oh, didn't we have a good time when they came.

4 Q. So Izetbegovic and his government were informed about the fact

5 that you swam across. And I publicly stated that you were free to leave

6 Serbia and go wherever you wished to go, to any country.

7 A. Sir, I don't know what you stated. I don't know whether anybody

8 was looking for us, I mean the government in Bosnia-Herzegovina. I just

9 know what happened to us there, that we were not informed about anything

10 or, rather, that we were not entitled to receive any information. I

11 didn't have the right to see my nephew who was underage and he was at the

12 next-door facility.

13 Q. Do you know that all of these men, and I don't have a list here,

14 this list was made at that time by the international organisations, but

15 all of those who were in the territory of Serbia then who had crossed to

16 the territory of Serbia on that occasion were always under the supervision

17 of the International Red Cross? And there is not a single official

18 complaint in respect of your treatment or the treatment of other Muslims

19 who were part of this large group. As far as I can remember, it was 840

20 men that swam across the Drina River.

21 A. I find this ridiculous. It was terrible. A young boy underage,

22 15. I think he died in this camp where I was.

23 Q. You yourself say in paragraph 41 that the Serb authorities brought

24 representatives of the International Red Cross to your room.

25 A. That's right.

Page 30342

1 Q. To show them how they took good care of you.

2 A. Yes, precise. It was an equipped room, a room equipped with beds

3 in order to be shown to the Red Cross and the UNHCR.

4 Q. So they moved about freely in other rooms?

5 A. Well, later, about three months later.

6 Q. No. No. They were there from the very first day. That can even

7 be seen from the newspaper. So what was it that was concealed from the

8 members of the International Red Cross; bruises, malnourishment? This was

9 never established by members of the International Red Cross. How could

10 this have been concealed from them?

11 A. That's right. They were not given proper access to Sljivovica I

12 think for about three months.

13 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Milosevic, if I may make this observation: You

14 mentioned this incident that you saved the 840 people during the opening

15 statement in February 18th of last year. So when you asked about the

16 witness's motive, so the witness may have referred to this, your

17 statements of last year. So you said that you couldn't have mentioned

18 this because the trial was on the Kosovo phase.

19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right, Mr. Kwon. What matters

20 here is that what I'm saying is the truth, that is rescuing these 840 men

21 and taking care of them in Serbia.

22 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

23 Q. So are you able to give me the name and surname or rank or

24 affiliation with some unit or the MUP or the army of Yugoslavia, the MUP

25 of Serbia or the army of Yugoslavia of any person who you claim mistreated

Page 30343

1 you or who behaved towards you in some way which was not in line with

2 human dignity?

3 A. Sir, they never introduced themselves to us. When we went out for

4 breakfast, we had to run the gauntlet, and they would beat us with rifles

5 butts. At any rate, they would beat us that way in the morning and in the

6 evening. And also during the night they called out our names or they'd

7 come to the door, and quite simply if they'd see anyone who was physically

8 a bit more capable, they'd take them out into the hall and beat them, two

9 or three men. And then also when they were taken downstairs by your men

10 -- I remember Vlado Karadza, for instance, and Slavenko. Slavenko was a

11 military man. During the first month, he was there around us all the

12 time.

13 Q. Are you trying to say that this is someone who beat you?

14 A. Yes, yes, precisely.

15 Q. Very well. Now, you mentioned a name and it can be corroborated

16 easily. Everything that has to do with this Muslim brigade is rather

17 transparent anyway.

18 Tell me, after leaving Serbia, did you undergo any kind of medical

19 examination or any kind of check-up to see whether there were any traces

20 of these alleged beatings that you had sustained in Serbia?

21 A. The International Red Cross people talked to us, sort of. We

22 weren't examined.

23 Q. Is this when they came to see you when you were staying in Serbia?

24 A. In camp in Serbia.

25 Q. Yes. You were under constant supervision of the International Red

Page 30344

1 Cross?

2 A. No. They came to see us twice a month.

3 Q. And you saw them every time and they saw you every time?

4 A. They brought us messages. They used to take us out. Sometimes

5 then used to take us out of the room into the hall. They would give us

6 messages and also tobacco.

7 Q. Oh, they brought you cigarettes and letters.

8 A. Yes, letters that had all sorts of things crossed out, things that

9 somebody did not like, somebody who censored the letters.

10 Q. Did anybody from the International Red Cross establish some kind

11 of malnourishment or mistreatment during your stay in Serbia?

12 A. Believe me, I didn't ask them. I believe that if they worked

13 properly, that they did note this.

14 Q. Do you have a shred of evidence for all this that you have been

15 saying?

16 A. For what?

17 Q. For what you're saying, that you were mistreated.

18 A. I have a lot of evidence.

19 Q. What kind of evidence?

20 A. Well, that a man suffocated when travelling towards the camp of

21 Sljivovica on a truck because there wasn't enough air. There were too

22 many of us under the tarpaulin.

23 Q. Do you know, Mr. 1770, that with regard to this event that you are

24 talking about here, there is a great deal of video footage, and also the

25 direct observations of members of the diplomatic corps in Belgrade and

Page 30345

1 many reports of international humanitarian organisations, and there is not

2 a bit of what you've been saying here in any of that?

3 A. Well, there is evidence of that. I think it was your television,

4 Television Serbia, that made a programme. A man had to read a thank you

5 letter addressed to you - that was pitiful - saying that you were so

6 noble.

7 Q. Oh, so you were not met there, saved, rescued. You were not taken

8 care of, fed, but you were beaten. That's what you're trying to say?

9 A. Exactly. It was a camp. It was a real camp, a torture camp.

10 Q. All right. It is very good that you say that because there are so

11 many documents about this. Just tell me one more thing: Who is the

12 author of this report on refugees who fled to Serbia after Zepa fell?

13 This is a report about refugees who fled to Serbia after Zepa fell. That

14 is the Sandzak Helsinki Committee.

15 A. I don't know that paper, I don't know where it came from.

16 Q. Oh, you don't know. All right, I'm not going to ask you anything

17 about that.

18 Q. On the 9th of December, 2001, you gave a statement to a certain

19 Bjorn Johnson in Sweden; is that right?

20 A. Yes, yes, correct.

21 Q. Or Johnsson. I'm not very familiar with Swedish last names.

22 A. A very nice man, a fine gentleman Mr. Bjorn Johnsson.

23 Q. Look at what it says here: "During the interview at the

24 immigration office in Gothenburg -" I'm not going to give your name which

25 is here - "he did not speak about the above-mentioned events. He only

Page 30346

1 said that he had been in camps and then in the United States." So that is

2 what it written here in what you say is a report of this fine gentleman.

3 You did not write about the events that you spoke of here. It was just

4 established that you had been in a camp there and then in the United

5 States of America.

6 A. Yes, correct, because I have an ID from a camp and also a Red

7 Cross ID. So they didn't ask for any explanations. This was sufficient

8 proof for them, the ID and the certificate from the UNHCR and the Red

9 Cross.

10 Q. All right. Just one more thing.

11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May, I shall remain within the

12 time frame that you asked for.

13 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

14 Q. On this page that has a particular ERN number and that was given

15 to Mr. Johnsson: "Since he did not manage to transfer his family to the

16 United States, he returned to Bosnia and sustained a wound due to a

17 shrapnel. The family fled to --" and that was now redacted -- "in

18 September 2000." So it can be seen here that you were fleeing from

19 something in the Federation. Can you explain what that was?

20 A. Well, you see, it's quite correct. It can be seen that I left the

21 Federation for the following reason: I cannot think of going back to the

22 Serb Republic where I had lived before the war. I don't dare go there.

23 However, the rules that exist now in Bosnia-Herzegovina say that people

24 who lived in the Serb Republic before the war, if they lost their status

25 or if they were not registered in the Federation have to return to the

Page 30347

1 Serb Republic. Since I do not dare go there, I have no choice, so I had

2 to move on.

3 Q. All right. You weren't fleeing from anything in particular from

4 the Federation?

5 A. Nothing.

6 Q. Thank you very much, Mr. 1770.

7 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I will really try

8 to finish within a few minutes.

9 Questioned by Mr. Tapuskovic:

10 Q. [Interpretation] Witness, in paragraph 26 you gave an explanation,

11 but if I understood you correctly, you said that you were expelled from

12 Bosnia and that you left Bosnia against your own will.

13 A. The Serb Republic.

14 Q. All right. In paragraph 26, take a look. You said here: Six of

15 us men decided to cross the driver. They were Alija Beganovic, his nephew

16 Jasmin, who was 16 years old at the time. There were three other guys but

17 I can't remember their names. So the six of you decided to cross the

18 Drina, to swim across the Drina, and that's what you did.

19 A. Exactly.

20 Q. Now please look at paragraph 67: The ICRC started talking to us

21 in December and they asked me where I wanted to go.

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. I said as far away as possible and as soon as opinion. The ICRC

24 representative never said anything to me because I don't think they really

25 checked those papers at all. The first group of detainees, about 200,

Page 30348

1 went to Australia. The second, of which I was a part, there were 112 or

2 120 of us, left for the United States. The third or last group - I don't

3 know for sure - went to France. So whoever wanted to go could go wherever

4 they wanted to go. Nobody prevented them from doing is that; is that

5 right?

6 A. They could go with the assistance of the UNHCR and the Red Cross.

7 They could go to third countries. There were people who wanted to return

8 to Bosnia-Herzegovina, however, that was not possible for them. That is

9 what the bosses at the camp said: Don't you dare think about that, no one

10 can go there.

11 Q. But you did go where you wanted to go.

12 A. Now, why did I say as far away as possible and as soon as

13 possible?

14 A. I wanted to leave this torture and this terrible life as soon as

15 possible.

16 Q. But from Serbia, you were allowed to go wherever you wanted to go.

17 A. Who allowed me to do that?

18 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] No further questions.

19 MR. AGHA: Yes, Your Honour. If I might, very briefly, ask the

20 witness just one question in re-examination.

21 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Certainly ask him one question. Yes.

22 Re-examined by Mr. Agha:

23 Q. Now, Witness, it's been mentioned by the accused and amici that

24 actually people were taken into Serbia who had swam across the Drina and

25 they were actually treated quite well and you were free to go and you were

Page 30349

1 looked after. Now, if I could just kindly -- I mean, before I come to

2 this, and actually there's nobody who can sort of confirm or back up what

3 you're contending, so if I could just refer you to your actual statement

4 and tab number 3 of your package, if you'd kindly be provided with that.

5 It's tab 4, actually.

6 MR. AGHA: If Your Honours are able to find this.

7 Q. And this is actually an extract from the Helsinki Committee for

8 Human Rights, which was annexed to the witness's statement. Now, could

9 you just please very briefly read the three points which are mentioned, 1,

10 2, 3 --

11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May.

12 JUDGE MAY: Yes.

13 JUDGE KWON: He said he didn't know this.

14 MR. AGHA: Well, it's actually in his statement.

15 JUDGE KWON: Yes, but during the cross-examination he said he

16 didn't know this, but you can re-examine on it.

17 MR. AGHA:

18 Q. Could you just kindly read out that extract of the report?

19 JUDGE MAY: I'm not sure about this. Do you know about this,

20 Mr. 1770 or not? Do you know about this report?

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. The lawyer put this in front

22 of me and asked me whether I knew the people from this list. He said to

23 me how I should mark the persons I knew, that I should mark the names of

24 those who I knew, and that's what I did. I also marked those who were my

25 family members, relatives. I know quite a few of these people. All of

Page 30350

1 these people are alive. They can talk just like I'm talking now.

2 MR. AGHA:

3 Q. And what does the report say, record about them, where they were?

4 A. This report pertains to a list of men who were in Sljivovica and

5 Mitrovo Polje, the two camps, in 1995. It says that they were not in

6 Sljivovica for a long time, or, rather, that they were not reported to the

7 Red Cross on time, and also with the Helsinki Committee. Somebody made

8 this list. I really have no idea who made this list. The only thing I

9 was asked to do was to underline the names of the persons I knew from this

10 list, the persons I knew personally. And I know quite a few of them

11 because we were together, quite a few.

12 MR. AGHA: Thank you. That's all, Your Honours. The list speaks

13 for itself. Thank you.

14 JUDGE MAY: Witness B-1770, that concludes your evidence. Thank

15 you for coming to the International Tribunal to give it. You are free to

16 go. If you would just wait while the blinds are drawn.

17 Yes, Mr. Nice.

18 MR. NICE: Is there no chance of two minutes in private session?

19 Is it too late?

20 JUDGE MAY: Yes. A very short two minutes.

21 JUDGE MAY: So, Witness, if you wouldn't mind waiting and we'll

22 just go into private session for this.

23 [Private session]

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

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18 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 3.49 p.m.,

19 to be reconvened on Monday, the 15th day of

20 December, 2003, at 9.00 a.m.

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