Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 30589

1 Wednesday, 17 December 2003

2 [Open session]

3 [The witness entered court]

4 [The accused entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 9.05 a.m.

6 JUDGE MAY: Yes, let the witness take the declaration.

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

8 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

9 JUDGE MAY: Thank you very much. If you'd like to take a seat.


11 [Witness answered through interpreter]

12 JUDGE MAY: Ms. Pack, before we begin, there are some formalities

13 that we need to do left over from yesterday. The first is to return the

14 book, General Clark's book, which was not admitted, which we return now.

15 There should be three copies.

16 The next is to formally inform the parties that we are minded,

17 subject to -- subject to any submissions, that we are minded to sit on

18 Monday, the 26th of January, and sit that week Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday.

19 I've just had a note that the courtroom is available, but if there

20 are any submissions from anybody, we'll hear them later in the day, but

21 obviously we need to fix it today since it's the last day of sitting.

22 I don't know if there are any other administrative matters to deal

23 with.

24 MS. PACK: No, Your Honour.

25 JUDGE MAY: The registry also inform me that no redactions were

Page 30590

1 made yesterday to the record.

2 MS. PACK: Mr. Nice will have ten minutes of administrative

3 matters to deal with at the end of the day, so nothing for you now.

4 JUDGE MAY: Very well. Sorry to keep you, Mr. Witness, but we're

5 going to start now.

6 MS. PACK: Can the witness be passed, please, his statement.

7 Examined by Ms. Pack.

8 Q. Witness, if you look, please, at the first page of your statement,

9 just the front page, are the details, your personal details set out on

10 that first page correct?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And, Witness, if you look, please, at the first page of the

13 statement in English, does your signature appear on the bottom of that

14 first page and on the last page of that statement in English?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Witness, that statement is dated the 28th of June, 1997, and are

17 the contents of that statement true to the best of your knowledge and

18 belief, subject to some points of clarification which we'll come to?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. You've had an opportunity, is it right, since being in The Hague,

21 to read through a copy of that statement in your own language?

22 A. Yes, I've read it.

23 MS. PACK: Your Honour, I'd --

24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May.

25 JUDGE MAY: Yes.

Page 30591

1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Just a technical question. There is

2 something wrong with the microphone. I can't hear anything that the

3 witness is saying.

4 JUDGE MAY: We'll have that looked into. Just one moment.

5 JUDGE KWON: Ms. Pack, I think we need to confirm the pseudonym of

6 the witness for the record.

7 MS. PACK: The pseudonym is B-1619 for the record.

8 THE ACCUSED: I'm hearing the interpreter, but I'm not hearing

9 him.

10 JUDGE MAY: We'll have the technical matter looked into. If you'd

11 like to take a seat, Ms. Pack, we'll deal with it.

12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I can hear the interpreter very

13 well, but I cannot hear the witness himself.

14 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Let's go on.

15 MS. PACK: Your Honour, I'd ask to admit the statement dated 28th

16 of June, 1997, under Rule 89(F), already the subject of a previous ruling

17 by Your Honours on the 9th of December this year, under seal.

18 JUDGE MAY: Yes. We'll admit the statement, and we'll ask for the

19 next number, please.

20 THE REGISTRAR: 620, Your Honour.

21 JUDGE MAY: Yes.

22 MS. PACK: Your Honour, I'll read a short summary.

23 The witness, a Muslim, is from Zepa in the municipality of

24 Rogatica. He gives evidence that on the 5th of August, 1995, after the

25 fall of Zepa, he set off with eight friends towards Priboj in Yugoslavia.

Page 30592

1 At or close to the border they came across 40 men dressed in blue police

2 camouflage uniforms. They had to surrender. These men were from Serbia.

3 The police could -- the witness could tell this from their accents, and

4 they wore insignia on their soldiers of the police of the Republic of

5 Serbia.

6 They beat the witness and his friends and then tied them two by

7 two. They loaded them on a truck and took them in the direction of

8 Visegrad.

9 At the village of Klasnik in Visegrad they came across local Serbs

10 who beat the witness and his friends. The local Serbs called Milan Lukic

11 by radio, asking him to come. Lukic later arrived with seven or eight

12 colleagues. The witness describes the massacre of his friends by Lukic

13 and his men whilst they were en route from Klasnik to Visegrad. He

14 describes his detention and interrogation in Visegrad and his subsequent

15 detention in Rogatica prison.

16 He saw General Mladic in Rogatica prison on four occasions. On

17 the last occasion prior to the witness's exchange, Mladic joked at them

18 and then his mood changed. He said, "There will be no exchange, only with

19 Allah." Then his mood changed and he said he would let the witness be

20 exchanged but that there would not be a second chance.

21 On the 15th of January, 1996, a bus came, taking the witness to

22 Kula. He was finally exchanged on the 19th of January, 1996.

23 Your Honour, I have a couple of questions by way of clarification.

24 Can the witness be shown his statement in B/C/S, please, paragraph

25 8.

Page 30593

1 Q. Witness, there's a matter that you wanted to clarify in that

2 paragraph. You say there that you went to the village of Podravanje in

3 Srebrenica to buy food. Is it right that you went to that village

4 yourself or did you receive food from that village, not actually going

5 there yourself?

6 A. No, I did not go there myself. Actually, food was brought from

7 that village and then we bought it.

8 Q. Witness, could you turn to paragraph 22, please, of the statement

9 that you have in front of you.

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Witness, you describe in that paragraph [French translation on

12 English channel].

13 JUDGE MAY: There is a problem with the French coming through on

14 our channel, the English.

15 THE INTERPRETER: Sorry, there was a wrong gesture. Sorry.

16 JUDGE MAY: Very well. Thank you very much. All seems to be

17 well.

18 MS. PACK:

19 Q. You describe in that paragraph your surrender to the police of the

20 Republic of Serbia along with eight of your friends. Are you able to say

21 which side of the border with Serbia, the Bosnian or the Serbian side,

22 that you surrendered?

23 A. Well, I cannot say exactly. This happened around the border. We

24 were surrounded from all sides, from the Serbian side and this other side,

25 so I cannot say exactly where we surrendered.

Page 30594












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Page 30595

1 MS. PACK: Can the witness be shown the second tab of the exhibit

2 bundle, the map.

3 JUDGE KWON: I'd like to check whether the accused is following

4 the conversation.

5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] On the channel that is the customary

6 channel where the Serbian translation is, and that is also where I should

7 hear the voice of the witness, I can hear the interpretation, but I cannot

8 hear the witness at all. And since he is quite far away and he is

9 speaking very softly, I cannot hear him without the microphone here in the

10 courtroom. I don't know if Mr. Tapuskovic has the same problem.

11 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] The problem is the same.

12 JUDGE MAY: Yes, we might try -- would the witness, if you can,

13 come closer to the microphone. It may be that you can really come no

14 closer than you already are, but perhaps you can, and perhaps you can

15 speak as loudly as you can, and we'll try and resolve it that way.

16 MS. PACK:

17 Q. Witness, you have in front of you a map initialed by you under

18 your pseudonym and dated the 15th of December. Have you encircled on that

19 map marked A the approximate area where you surrendered with your friends?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And within that area, do we see the town of -- the village of

22 Stolac on the Serbian side of the border?

23 A. Stolac, a mountain, a hill.

24 MS. PACK: Your Honours, that area also appears on the Prosecution

25 Exhibit 326, page 33, reference 2E.

Page 30596

1 Q. Witness, going back to paragraph 22 of your statement, having tied

2 you up two by two, you and your friends, where did the Serbian police take

3 you?

4 A. The Serbian police took us to Klasnik in the municipality of

5 Visegrad.

6 Q. Whom did they leave you there with?

7 A. They handed us over there to the local Serbs, that is to say the

8 Serbs who were probably from Visegrad.

9 Q. Did they take you or your friends to their own or any police

10 station?

11 A. No. They just transferred us there. It was a kind of camp there

12 where the local Serbs were in Klasnik.

13 Q. Witness, was there another group of men in Klasnik?

14 A. Yes. There were about 20 other men there too, 20 men in uniform.

15 They were sitting apart from the rest. They were wearing the same

16 uniforms with the same insignia.

17 Q. Were you able to tell where they were from?

18 A. Well, they were from Serbia, judging by their accent. They were

19 also in uniform, and they were talking for a while. They were talking to

20 a prisoner. So I could conclude on the basis of that conversation that

21 they were from Serbia.

22 Q. Did you subsequently hear where specifically they were from in

23 Serbia?

24 A. Yes, I did hear that. This small unit was from Kraljevo. They

25 explained that they knew about some particular places when they were

Page 30597

1 talking to this prisoner, and the brother of one of these soldiers had

2 some kind of a cafe or restaurant or a butcher shop in Kraljevo, and the

3 prisoner remembered that because he did his military service before the

4 war in the town of Kraljevo.

5 Q. Witness, finally, can you remember what sort uniforms these men

6 were wearing?

7 A. This entire group had the same camouflage uniforms. They had

8 White Eagles' patches on their sleeves, but I did not notice their caps.

9 MS. PACK: Your Honour, I've no further questions.

10 One matter that I would like to raise before the witness is

11 cross-examined, I've identified at the start of the summary those matters

12 which may, if questioned upon, lead to the identification of this witness.

13 Just two matters at the start of the summary and I'd ask Your Honour to

14 hear those matters, if they arise, in private session.

15 JUDGE MAY: Yes, we'll go into private session to deal with them.

16 MS. PACK: Not necessarily now, Your Honour, it would simply be if

17 they arise.

18 JUDGE MAY: No. It's necessary that it be said in private session

19 so that it can be heard.

20 [Private session]

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 30598

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 [Open session]

9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Don't worry, Mr. May, I'm not going

10 to compromise the witness in any way. I'd never do that.

11 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Very well.

12 Cross-examined by Mr. Milosevic:

13 Q. Mr. 1619, you were underage at the time when the war broke out in

14 Bosnia-Herzegovina?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Again, I can barely hear you. Let me try to put the volume up as

17 much as possible, because it's not Ms. Pack who is speaking now.

18 So it was only towards the end of 1995 that you became of age; is

19 that right?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. In paragraph 16 of your statement, you say that in the month of

22 August 1994, you were mobilised, and after basic training, you were

23 deployed in the infantry, and after that in the rocket platoon of the

24 anti-aircraft defence. Is that right?

25 A. Yes.

Page 30599

1 Q. That is in the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina; is that right?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Tell me, please, since you were mobilised as a minor, how many

4 other minors were there who were mobilised in the army of

5 Bosnia-Herzegovina?

6 A. I don't understand this question. Are you referring to the entire

7 army?

8 Q. I don't mean the entire army. I don't think that you would know

9 what the situation was in the entire army. I'm talking about what you

10 know, about the situation in your unit, in your area, in your group.

11 A. I cannot give a precise answer to that.

12 Q. You don't have to give a precise answer, just give me a tentative

13 figure. How many soldiers were there? How many of you were there?

14 A. This brigade had about 1.200 men. Now, perhaps there were between

15 50 and 100 peers of mine.

16 Q. All right. That means about 10 per cent of the personnel of the

17 brigade were children, that is to say persons who were underage, minors.

18 Tell me, do you know that in 1993 the Security Council of the UN

19 passed a Resolution proclaiming Zepa, in addition to other areas in

20 Bosnia-Herzegovina, a demilitarised zone and a safe area?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. So in spite of that, in the area of Zepa, there was not only a

23 unit that was there but actually mobilisation was carried out. You were

24 mobilised in 1994; isn't that right?

25 A. Yes.

Page 30600












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Page 30601

1 Q. In paragraph 3 of your statement, you say that the war in Zepa

2 started on the 4th of June, 1992, and in the following way, that, as you

3 had put it, a small JNA unit came into town on -- under the pretext of

4 delivering food to Mount Javor. That was in 1992; is that right?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Then your local commander, as far as I can see from your statement

7 because I don't have any other information related to your statement, then

8 your local commander realised that the members of the JNA were preparing

9 to attack, although they did not attack anyone, so then he decided to

10 ambush them in a section of the road that was very narrow, and the sides

11 were steep, as you say. Is that right?

12 A. Yes. In those villages around Han Pijesak, the JNA fired from

13 tanks and all other weapons, so this could not have been a reason why they

14 would not go further with their armoured vehicles and men.

15 Q. I'm not going to talk about what you heard and what you were

16 assuming. It was my understanding that they came, they did not attack

17 you, you simply ambushed them on the road, and both sides of the road were

18 steep, as you had put it here.

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. So the first armed conflict was actually this ambush that you had

21 prepared.

22 A. Well, the first biggish one.

23 Q. So the first big armed conflict was when you, that is to say, the

24 local unit that you had established in Zepa, placed an ambush against the

25 JNA unit that was moving along the road. Then when that happened, you

Page 30602

1 were only 14 years old. Tell me, how do you know about this? Did you

2 participate in that?

3 A. No, I did not, but I know the people who were there, and they told

4 me about it.

5 Q. Is it true that this unit, your unit, the unit you're talking of,

6 was under the command of Avdo Palic? Is that right?

7 A. Not at the very beginning, but later on, yes.

8 Q. So he was the commander of that brigade, wasn't he?

9 A. Yes. Not at first, but later on, yes.

10 Q. And this unit was part of a larger detachment which had a

11 different name, didn't it, Mr. 1619?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. What was that larger unit and what was its name?

14 A. The 28th Division.

15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I really have to look at the

16 transcript. I can't hear him.

17 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

18 Q. I see. That's the 28th Division of Naser Oric, isn't it?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Now, in view of the fact that you are testifying, among other

21 things, about this attack on the JNA members when, according to you, the

22 war started in the area of Srebrenica, do you remember what occurred

23 during that attack?

24 A. Could you repeat the question?

25 Q. Are you hearing me well?

Page 30603

1 A. Yes, but could you repeat the question? I didn't understand it.

2 Q. I was saying that since you are testifying about this ambush that

3 you -- we have just established when the war in the Zepa area started,

4 could you tell me what actually happened during that attack?

5 A. I can't as I wasn't there. I already said that I wasn't a

6 participant, so I can't describe the details.

7 Q. I see. You don't know the details. But is it true that in that

8 ambush set for the JNA 45 JNA soldiers were killed?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Do you know that in addition to those 45 soldiers who were killed,

11 another 31 are still registered as missing? Do you know where those who

12 are still missing were taken?

13 A. I'm not aware at all about the soldiers that went missing.

14 Q. Forty-five soldiers of the JNA were killed in that ambush, but

15 another 31 are missing, and they were taken somewhere. You should know,

16 as this is a small place. Where were they taken to?

17 A. I really am not aware of those 31 soldiers. I know nothing about

18 them.

19 Q. Very well. If you don't know anything, we can move on.

20 In paragraph 5, you say that your men were able to repel virtually

21 all attacks; is that right?

22 A. This paragraph relates to that day in 1992 when the JNA was

23 heading towards Zepa.

24 Q. But the brigade that you mention was already active there, wasn't

25 it?

Page 30604

1 A. It was just in the process of formation at the beginning of 1992,

2 so the terrain contributed to all this.

3 Q. I see. You used the advantages of the terrain, the effect of

4 surprise. You ambushed the JNA soldiers and killed 45 of them, but how

5 strong was that unit then at that time?

6 A. I am unable to give you a number.

7 Q. Is it clear from this, Witness 1619, that it was not the Serbs who

8 attacked you but you who attacked the JNA and killed 45 men in that first

9 attack?

10 A. Before all this, maybe a month or two before it, we were blocked.

11 Our electricity was cut off. The surrounding villages towards Rogatica

12 had been torched. There was occasional shelling. So I think it's clear

13 to you.

14 Q. From your statement, I see you say that you were able to defend

15 the area and apparently there was some fire in two villages only. You

16 mention those two cases of torchings in two villages.

17 A. Those were villages that were on the road taken by that unit.

18 They were going from Han Pijesak and passing those villages as they went.

19 Q. Were there attacks on that unit from those villages as well?

20 A. No.

21 Q. So you know that.

22 A. From the stories of the people who fled from there to Zepa.

23 Q. Well, do you know, since you're claiming that, you're claiming to

24 know that, do you know that in June, in the month of June, there were

25 synchronised attacks by your forces on Serb villages; Agorovici [phoen],

Page 30605

1 Simici, Presirici [phoen], Kozici, Pijesko [phoen], Borac, Vraselica

2 [phoen]. These are all villages that you're familiar with, aren't they?

3 A. I heard only of Presirici, and they too are close to Rogatica and

4 that's a long way away. We had no contact with them. That's way out.

5 Q. And do you know that when those attacks were carried out against

6 all those villages, the people were killed, a large number of people were

7 killed and their property looted, the villages burnt down. Even

8 tombstones broken and destroyed and desecrated. This is a whole series of

9 Serb villages in your immediate vicinity which these forces of yours

10 attacked, just as they attacked this JNA column. Do you know of that?

11 A. I hear that for the first time from you. And after all, 40 or so

12 kilometres is not the immediate vicinity.

13 Q. That applies to this one village that you said you knew. I'm not

14 sure whether you said one or two villages.

15 A. I heard of the name of that village, but I never went there, and I

16 hadn't heard of what you say happened.

17 Q. Very well. And do you know that this man, the man I mentioned,

18 Avdo Palic, that you said was later the commander, that he attacked a Serb

19 village called Borovina, which is also in the municipality of Han Pijesak

20 on the 7th of August, 1992, and personally killed, among other Serbs that

21 were killed there, he personally killed --

22 JUDGE MAY: How can the witness know about this?

23 Do you know anything at all about this, Mr. 1619?

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

25 JUDGE MAY: There's no point asking him this sort of question. He

Page 30606












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Page 30607

1 knows nothing about it. He said that. You can call evidence about it in

2 due course, but it's a waste of time asking witnesses who know nothing

3 about it.

4 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] How can you know in advance that the

5 witness doesn't know anything about it?

6 JUDGE MAY: Because he's not the man you're talking about. Now,

7 let's move on to something else.

8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The witness said that he knew that

9 the commander was Avdo Palic, and I'm asking him a question about the

10 person he said he knew and he admitted that he was the commander over

11 there, so I'm asking whether he knows about the activities of that man

12 that he knew.

13 JUDGE MAY: He's given you an answer. He doesn't. Maybe you want

14 to ask him about what he's given evidence about if you challenge it.

15 General Mladic, for instance. The massacre of his friends. You may want

16 to challenge that evidence.

17 THE INTERPRETER: The microphone is not on. I'm afraid we can't

18 hear.

19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] If the witness says -- I am saying I

20 can't get an answer to a question until I put it to him, and if the

21 witness says that he doesn't know, then he's answered the question.

22 He knows this man. That's why I asked him this.

23 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

24 Q. Very well. Do you know that these attacks on Serb villages, which

25 went on until the spring of 1993, and in paragraph 13 you say that the

Page 30608

1 inhabitants of Zepa were left without water and electricity when Zepa was

2 blocked early in 1992. Is that what you said?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Now explain to me, please, what kind of a blockade of Zepa are you

5 talking about at the beginning of 1992 when you yourself said that the war

6 started on the 4th of June, which means in the middle of that year, with

7 the ambush, your ambush of this column of soldiers that you killed?

8 A. I said that the first larger conflict occurred on that occasion,

9 but you're well aware when Serb autonomous regions started to be formed at

10 the beginning of 1992. I already said that all approaches, all telephone

11 lines, power supplies, and everything else was blocked, and refugees

12 started coming in from Rogatica and Visegrad at the beginning of 1992.

13 Q. Very well. And how long were you without electricity, water,

14 telephone lines, et cetera?

15 A. From 1992 onwards.

16 Q. From when in 1992? You say at the beginning of 1992.

17 A. I'm really not able to give you an exact date, but it was the very

18 beginning of the year, the beginning of 1992.

19 Q. I see. But at the beginning of 1992, there was absolutely no

20 conflicts in Bosnia and Herzegovina. Are you aware of that?

21 A. Would you repeat the question, please.

22 Q. I was saying do you -- are you aware that at the beginning of 1992

23 there were absolutely no conflicts in Bosnia-Herzegovina, and especially

24 in your area?

25 A. In Bosnia and Herzegovina, as far as I know, there were sporadic

Page 30609

1 clashes, I think in Bijeljina what happened happened, and around Zepa

2 there were sporadic clashes and refugees from coming from Visegrad and

3 Rogatica.

4 Q. Very well. There's no need to speak about dates then, because --

5 well, after all, you don't even have to know these things.

6 Anyway, tell me, please, certainly you do know that in addition to

7 Zepa, the neighbouring town of Srebrenica was proclaimed a demilitarised

8 safe area.

9 A. Yes, I do know that.

10 Q. In paragraph 16, you say that in June 1995, you returned from

11 Srebrenica to Zepa where you had attended additional military training; is

12 that right?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. So in Srebrenica, the command and the bulk of the units of the

15 28th Division were stationed. Isn't that right?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. That is where the training centre was as well, the one you went

18 to. How long did you attend training there?

19 A. I think for about 15 days or so.

20 Q. What kind of additional training was it?

21 A. I think you can see that from the statement.

22 Q. Sabotage reconnaissance. What is that?

23 A. No, no, it isn't that. It is training for anti-air defence.

24 Q. I see. So throughout that time since you were undergoing training

25 and that was where the 28th Division was based, your brigade in Zepa, the

Page 30610

1 centre in Srebrenica, throughout that time, units of the 28th Division

2 were in that demilitarised zone of Srebrenica and Zepa; is that right?

3 A. Well, the boundaries of the demilitarised zone were smaller than

4 the actual territory, which was - I don't know how to call it - in between

5 the zones.

6 Q. Are you aware that those units of the 28th Division, which means

7 your division, completely razed to the ground all the surrounding Serb

8 villages and killed the entire Serb population?

9 A. No.

10 Q. Tell me, who was supposed to carry out the demilitarisation and

11 the disarming of your forces? Was it the UN members who were there?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. In paragraph 18, you say that in July 1995, after the fall of

14 Srebrenica, Zepa was attacked, and UNPROFOR at the time, as you say, did

15 nothing.

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Now, explain, please, how could it have done anything when you

18 yourself in that same paragraph say that at three checkpoints of theirs

19 you seized their weapons and chased them to their base? Is that right,

20 Mr. 1619?

21 A. Because when the attack on Zepa started, during the first couple

22 of days they went to their shelters, and those who were at the checkpoint,

23 they didn't do anything, even to report what was happening. So we came to

24 the conclusion that they wouldn't do anything.

25 Q. So you seized their weapons from them, you disarmed the UNPROFOR

Page 30611

1 officers and chased them back to their base.

2 A. We didn't chase them there. Their officer was there, and together

3 with all the things they wanted to take with them, their personal

4 belongings, they were driven to their base.

5 Q. You say that you escorted them back to their base. This is what

6 you say in your statement, and I'm quoting you. So it is a polite way of

7 saying that you disarmed them and took them to their base.

8 A. Yes, but we didn't chase them off, we didn't drive them out.

9 Q. Very well, you escorted them to their base. But actually, you

10 snatched away their weapons, you didn't just take them.

11 A. The officer who was there, in agreement with our commander, they

12 agreed amongst themselves that they -- he, too, should go and that the

13 weapons should be taken away. There was no force used, no coercion. They

14 just wanted to reach their main base and probably wait for the outcome of

15 all those events.

16 Q. Tell me, please, is it true that the fighting around Zepa went on

17 for all of ten days and that they were stopped when General Smith arrived,

18 who then brought some order, agreement was reached for the wounded and the

19 civilians to be taken out of Zepa; is that right?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. So that means that it was only members of the army of

22 Bosnia-Herzegovina who remained in Zepa; is that right?

23 A. Yes, on the mountains above Zepa.

24 Q. So everybody left except for the members of the army of

25 Bosnia-Herzegovina.

Page 30612












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Page 30613

1 In paragraph 20, you say that Avdo Palic, your local brigade

2 commander, surrendered on that occasion to the members of the army of

3 Republika Srpska; is that right?

4 A. It wasn't only members of the army who had stayed back. There

5 were also a number of civilians in the mountains, men who did not dare

6 join these convoys and these trucks. They were afraid. A number of them

7 stayed back together with the army. And as concerns what I said about the

8 commander, I can explain what happened.

9 Q. Well, go ahead and explain.

10 A. When the last few buses left Zepa, on Mount Boksanica, that is to

11 say on the road towards Rogatica, then the Serbs stopped these civilians.

12 So it is true that they got out of Zepa, but they were stopped at

13 Boksanica. And as I wrote in my statement - you can check that - then he

14 surrendered.

15 Q. Why did this number of men that you refer to stay back? Why

16 didn't they dare leave with the other civilians? Why didn't they join the

17 evacuation?

18 A. Because they were afraid that they would be taken off the buses,

19 as indeed happened with about 50 or so men who I found later in prison.

20 They were taking wounded persons off buses and also older men, about 50

21 years old, who were suspected of having been members of the army. So they

22 got them off the buses.

23 Q. All right. But is it correct, Mr. 1619, that Avdo Palic did not

24 surrender? He was taken prisoner, rather, in this fighting with members

25 of the army of Republika Srpska?

Page 30614

1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] What's the problem now? Now he has

2 a problem? Microphone is on.


4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] First and foremost, he did not

5 surrender during the fighting, because a cease-fire had been signed during

6 those days and he was down there involved in the negotiations together

7 with members of UNPROFOR, and the Serbs quite simply took him out of the

8 UNPROFOR base in Zepa.

9 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

10 Q. Did you see that?

11 A. No, but his escort was allowed to return to the Zepa mountains,

12 and he's the one who told us what happened, because they sent him so that

13 he'd talk everybody else into surrendering.

14 Q. Oh, they kept this Palic and they sent his escort back to the unit

15 to inform the unit that everybody should surrender; is that right?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. All right. Now you've clarified this for me. Tell me, you

18 conveyed something to the deputy commander. This has to do with paragraph

19 20. You heard that one of members of the Ukrainian Battalion asked to

20 speak to Palic, that he had been killed while attempting to flee, and you

21 said that to the deputy commander; is that right?

22 A. Yes. I heard this conversation.

23 Q. What was the name of Palic's deputy?

24 A. Major Ramo Cardakovic.

25 Q. Was he one of the persons who were later in the woods in this

Page 30615

1 group together with you? I'm not going to refer to any names in order to

2 protect your identity. What happened to him? What happened to this

3 deputy commander?

4 A. I don't know what happened. Later on, there was general disarray

5 up there, so I don't know what happened.

6 Q. But there is no doubt that this message that came that this unit

7 should surrender was not accepted and that the unit went on fighting; is

8 that right? Even after Palic was taken prisoner, the unit went on

9 fighting, right?

10 A. Yes, but people were waiting up there to hear what the outcome of

11 the negotiations would be. So during the cease-fire, we were attacked.

12 Q. All right. Let's see now. Your father, who was also in the ranks

13 of the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina, decided with the rest to go to Serbia;

14 is that right?

15 A. It's not true that he was a member of the army of

16 Bosnia-Herzegovina. That he decided to go to Serbia and surrender, that

17 is correct, though.

18 Q. However, you did not want to go with him. You wanted to stay

19 there and indeed you did stay there with another eight friends and you

20 withdrew into the forest; is that right?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. So did your father go to Serbia?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. All right. He did not go by himself. Did he go with a

25 considerable number of other people to Serbia too?

Page 30616

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. With how many?

3 A. I don't know the exact number. A couple of hundred.

4 Q. All right. A couple of hundred. When you say "a couple of

5 hundred" in Serbian, that means several hundred. It does not mean a

6 couple as literally 200.

7 Tell me, when did you meet up with your father again?

8 A. The first time after that was in 1999.

9 Q. All right. Where was he during all this time after having gone to

10 Serbia and until 1999 when you met up with him again?

11 A. In the United States of America.

12 Q. How long did he stay in Serbia?

13 A. Seven months.

14 Q. All right. Tell me, did he tell you how he was treated in Serbia;

15 that he was treated decently, politely, that nobody mistreated him? Did

16 he tell you about that?

17 A. Well, that was his own case, yes, but there were other cases too.

18 Q. All right. As for him himself, and he was probably not the only

19 one, he was treated decently, properly, and there was no mistreatment

20 involved; is that right?

21 A. Yes, but he was taken prisoner.

22 Q. You mean he was staying at some centre, and after that he was sent

23 where he wanted to go and then he went to America; right? Is that right,

24 Mr. 1619?

25 A. He did go to America, but he told me that this was decided by the

Page 30617

1 Red Cross and the UNHCR. So they didn't have much choice.

2 Q. The UNHCR said where people could go depending on the receiving

3 country, how many they were willing to take in, but it was his choice to

4 leave Serbia, and nobody prevented him from leaving Serbia; is that right?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Now, whether he was allowed to go to Australia or America or

7 Germany, that was not up to the Serbian authorities, as you know full

8 well.

9 Tell me, please, you say in paragraph 21 -- I'm not going to

10 mention all these names so we don't have to move into private session. I

11 bear in mind the fact that this is a paragraph that should not be read

12 out. So with a group of fellow combatants, you remained where you were;

13 is that right?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And do you know, since -- since you have here one of these

16 comrades of yours, this is the first one you mention in paragraph 21 --

17 let me check once again. Here it is. It's the end of paragraph 21 when

18 you say this number of people, I'm not even going to say how many people

19 were there, were, and now you mention the names. And the first name that

20 is written here, the first name so that we don't have to move into private

21 session, do you know that this person, on the 28th of August, 1992, in the

22 village of Okruglo, near Rogatica, intercepted a passenger car in which

23 Radenko Djelakovic [phoen] was as well as his daughter Sonija? So this

24 was a man who was travelling with his daughter. And this person mentioned

25 here killed both of them; do you know that?

Page 30618












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Page 30619

1 A. No, because I've already said, as for all these things that

2 happened around Rogatica, I really don't know about that.

3 Q. You spent a long time together. It was not a big group. You did

4 not hear from him about all the things he did?

5 A. First of all, it wasn't that we spent a long time together. We

6 were together perhaps for three or four days, and this group was formed

7 simply by chance up there in the mountains during this general disarray,

8 as I said. So people simply stayed with the first person they came

9 across. So I really don't know anything about this.

10 Q. The fourth person on this list after the brackets that we see here

11 in the text, do you know that in 1992 in the village of Stitarevo he also

12 committed a murder? The murdered man was called Nedzo Lindevic, from

13 Trsevina. And he also seriously wounded another man. I'm just asking

14 about people who were in your group.

15 A. I'm telling you yet again we were in that group together by

16 chance. I do not know what happened in other towns. This man is from a

17 different place altogether, so I'm telling you yet again that this group

18 was simply formed by chance at that time, and we really didn't have all

19 that time to get acquainted and to talk.

20 JUDGE MAY: In any event, even if it were true, these allegations,

21 what's the relevance of it?

22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] It is relevant, Mr. May, so that you

23 would understand the situation in the area, in the area all the way to

24 Bratunac. If you look at the map, you will see this easily. All the Serb

25 villages were destroyed by Naser Oric's 28th Division. Everything was

Page 30620

1 torched, everybody was killed.

2 JUDGE MAY: This is all defence. And is it in any way suggested

3 that that in some way justified these men being killed, as this witness

4 has set out in his statement? Is that what's being suggested?

5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] No, of course it's not justified by

6 that. Heaven forbid. A crime cannot justify another crime.

7 I am talking about a situation in which you see that this conflict

8 started. It started by an ambush aimed against a JNA column. An enormous

9 number of soldiers were killed, 45 of them, ambushed. After that, they

10 torched everything all around them, and that's how the conflict broke out.

11 And now whether people were taken prisoner were killed, of course nobody

12 can justify that. That's a shame.

13 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

14 Q. I'm not going to ask you now because you just said that this group

15 was set up by chance to such an extent that you quite literally didn't

16 know anybody from before?

17 A. I knew two men a bit better.

18 Q. These two men you knew a bit better, were you aware of the

19 activities of the two in respect of the matters we were discussing just

20 now?

21 A. Well, one of them was even younger than I was, as a matter of

22 fact, and the other one was my age, and all the rest were older men. So

23 of course I was more or less together with these two men.

24 Q. But you were all together in one brigade, one unit; is that right?

25 A. Yes.

Page 30621

1 Q. Now I have to ask you about a relative of yours, so that would

2 probably identify you.

3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] So, Mr. May, could we just move into

4 closed session for a moment.

5 [Private session]

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 [Open session]

21 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session.

22 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

23 Q. I will now ask you about your crossing in 1992. You crossed the

24 Drina on the 5th of August; is that right?

25 A. In 1995.

Page 30622

1 Q. I'm sorry. I misspoke. In 1995, yes. So you crossed the Drina

2 on the 5th of August, 1995; is that right?

3 A. On the night of the 4th, yes.

4 Q. Where exactly did you cross the Drina?

5 A. As I was there only once in my whole life, that is on that

6 occasion, I am not quite sure, but I think it's called Brusnicki Potok.

7 Q. That is the name of the place?

8 A. Yes, this canyon, this spot where we crossed.

9 Q. Did you cross the Drina using a bridge or did you swim over?

10 A. We built a raft.

11 Q. And you crossed to the other bank of the Drina; is that right?

12 A. Yes. And Serbia is on the other bank and not Bosnia and

13 Herzegovina.

14 A. Not throughout. Not everywhere.

15 Q. On the other bank of the Drina, across the way from the place you

16 mentioned, you say you were arrested by the police of the Republic of

17 Serbia; is that right?

18 A. I already said that somewhere around the border.

19 Q. Well, that is the point. You crossed the Drina, and then on the

20 other side of the Drina, where Serbia is, it is only natural that the

21 police of the Republic of Serbia should guard its border on its bank. So

22 you crossed the Drina illegally. As you say, you crossed in a raft,

23 several of you, and then the police turned you back to the other bank, to

24 the other side, because they didn't receive you; is that right?

25 A. That they turned us back, that is true.

Page 30623

1 Q. And when they took you back, they crossed the Drina again; is that

2 right?

3 A. I'm repeating: They didn't go back across the Drina. And also,

4 where we crossed the Drina, it wasn't Serbia. You would have to walk for

5 half a day to reach the border.

6 Q. Witness 1619, let us not go into that now, but in any event, the

7 police, which you say was the police of the Republic of Serbia, arrested

8 you on the other side of the Drina, which you had crossed illegally, and

9 then they took you back and that's all. Tell me, they handed you over to

10 the authorities on your own territory, is that right, after you had

11 illegally entered Serbia?

12 A. Yes, they took us to Klasnik and handed us over to the local

13 Serbs.

14 Q. Let me find the place in the statement. I saw somewhere, and I'm

15 unable to find it now, but I saw that you said that they took you to their

16 police station. They didn't take you to their police station, they took

17 you back; isn't that right?

18 A. They took us back to Klasnik, to a camp, a base or whatever, of

19 the local Serbs.

20 Q. But that's the closest location where any local authorities were

21 to be found. And those men who took you back, did they go back to Serbia

22 after that?

23 A. They left there. Where they went to, I don't know.

24 Q. They stopped you, they took you back, and then they left; is that

25 right?

Page 30624












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Page 30625

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. So those men that you saw who were policemen from Serbia, they

3 didn't beat you or mistreat you in any way? They didn't inflict any

4 injuries, did they?

5 A. No, that's not right. They did mistreat us. They made us strip

6 to our waist, they collected everything we had on us - money and jewellery

7 and everything else - and only then did they take us down there to

8 Klasnik.

9 Q. If these were policemen on the Serbian side, I find it difficult

10 to believe that.

11 A. That's your problem.

12 Q. Tell me, did you say of them that they had White Eagles patches on

13 their sleeves?

14 A. No. I said that regarding another group of soldiers who were in

15 Klasnik.

16 JUDGE KWON: Just a second, Mr. Milosevic. If I can clarify this.

17 Of course you may not answer, but Mr. Milosevic, do you agree, accept that

18 these policemen are Serbian police who caught this group of people? I

19 notice on the map, even if they crossed the river, it's not the border.

20 So you accept that Serbian police are inside Bosnia and Herzegovina?

21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I do not accept that the police of

22 the Republic of Serbia was in Bosnia and Herzegovina, Mr. Kwon. I am sure

23 that the police of the Republic of Serbia could only have been on the

24 territory of the Republic of Serbia. That is why if you cross the Drina,

25 you enter Serbia on this side, and they could have been arrested by the

Page 30626

1 police of Republic of Serbia only in the Republic of Serbia. And even if

2 -- so I'm answering your question though you don't insist I do so: Even

3 in that case, if the police of the Republic of Serbia had been there, they

4 would have taken them to their own police station, identified them, and

5 treated them then accordingly, either as refugees or some kind of

6 misplaced -- displaced persons.

7 So regarding your question whether the police of the Republic of

8 Serbia was on the territory of Bosnia and Herzegovina, my answer is no,

9 they weren't, nor could they be, nor would we have risked the lives of our

10 men to cross to the other side where a war was being waged. There was

11 only a single platoon of our police on the territory of Bosnia and

12 Herzegovina about which I notified Owen and Stoltenberg in the Strpce

13 station where a train was stopped and people taken off it. This is the

14 Belgrade-Bar railway line, going from Belgrade to Bar, and for nine

15 kilometres it runs through the territory of Bosnia and Herzegovina. Only

16 for nine kilometres. And on that stretch, there is a small station called

17 Strpce where the train never stops. However the train was stopped there,

18 people taken off the train and killed. And this was done by some

19 paramilitaries, and then we sent a police platoon there to secure the

20 station.

21 JUDGE KWON: We've heard that. You can go on, Mr. Milosevic.

22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Kwon, because this was an

23 exception, this is an exception that I informed Owen and Stoltenberg

24 about, that we were securing our own train that was passing through that

25 territory for a stretch of nine kilometres to protect it against

Page 30627

1 paramilitaries of Republika Srpska, not Muslim units. They were not

2 there.

3 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

4 Q. And now tell me, please -- I leave something out because I see my

5 time is running out.

6 I was confused by what you said, that they took you to their

7 police station. So that would mean that they took you to a Serbian police

8 station if you were in Serbia, but they didn't take you to their police

9 station if they were policemen from Serbia. They could have been Serbian

10 policemen only on the territory of Serbia. So you were taken to the

11 authorities on the territory of the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina; is

12 that right?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And then, as one of the Serbs told you, they called Milan Lukic,

15 who arrived shortly after that and shook hands with all of you; is that

16 right?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And this prompted you to think that the rumours about him were not

19 true.

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Is he from that area?

22 A. I think he is from the municipality of Visegrad.

23 Q. And then you say that seven men were killed from your group there

24 and that Milan Lukic brought their uniforms and boots; is that right?

25 A. Yes.

Page 30628

1 Q. The numbers don't quite coincide because it would now appear that

2 there were more of you, but that is not important.

3 JUDGE MAY: Let's clarify to make it clear. How many men did you

4 start off with, Witness?

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Myself and another eight.

6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well.

7 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

8 Q. So my understanding was, on the basis of what you said before,

9 that you were eight in all.

10 A. Myself plus eight.

11 Q. And then this last one was killed, as you say, this -- the eighth

12 one then. Let me not mention the names for your own protection that you

13 have been granted. And you alone were allowed to live; is that right?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Do you know why, if all the others were killed, why you were left

16 alive?

17 A. I don't know.

18 Q. Who killed these men, and why did he take their boots and

19 uniforms?

20 A. You would have to ask them.

21 Q. And the people with Milan Lukic, you say that there was another

22 man with the same surname; is that right?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. He was a relative of his?

25 A. I can't say with certainty.

Page 30629

1 Q. Was that man from Visegrad?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. In paragraph 26, will you please clarify this for me. You say

4 that a policeman in Visegrad asked you whether you knew who had brought

5 you there; is that right?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Did you know who brought you there?

8 A. I did.

9 Q. Why did you say you didn't know?

10 A. I was scared. I was afraid of saying anything and of revealing

11 knowing anything.

12 Q. You told him you didn't know, and then he explained to you that no

13 one would hurt you. When did you actually learn, or, rather, when did you

14 identify that person as being Milan Lukic; when he captured you or when?

15 When did you identify him? Was it in Visegrad or before that?

16 A. He didn't capture us. When he arrived, he introduced himself.

17 Q. So, I see. That's clear. He came and he introduced himself.

18 Very well.

19 JUDGE MAY: You've got two minutes left, Mr. Milosevic.

20 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I will hurry up.

21 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

22 Q. You mention a certain Zoran Neskovic. You say that he was the

23 prison warden, then a Vujic, who took you to the prison in Rogatica. Were

24 they also locals from the area?

25 A. Yes, from Rogatica.

Page 30630












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Page 30631

1 Q. And this Kusic you mention too, he is a man from the area, too,

2 isn't he?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Were you in uniform, those of you who were in prison then, in that

5 prison?

6 A. Which prison?

7 Q. When you were in the Rogatica prison, or generally when you were

8 captured, were you wearing uniforms of the army of Bosnia and Herzegovina?

9 A. Not all of us.

10 Q. Did you have a uniform on?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And this young man who was younger than you, he was wearing a

13 uniform too, wasn't he?

14 A. I'm not quite sure about that.

15 Q. And the third person mentioned, was he also a member of your unit?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Now, explain, please: You say that in the cell in the Rogatica

18 prison, a drunk came in, a drunken man came in and said he was General

19 Mladic.

20 A. Yes. I know it was him because I had seen him before on

21 television, so I know it was him.

22 Q. In paragraph 35, you say that Mladic visited you another three

23 times, on the 17th of November, the 18th of December, on the 11th of

24 January, and that he was always drunk. Is it really possible that the

25 commander of the army of Republika Srpska should come to visit you in

Page 30632

1 Rogatica several times and that throughout he was drunk? It sounds

2 improbable to me, so could you please explain on what grounds you came to

3 the conclusion that it was indeed General Mladic? What was he looking

4 for, coming to see you in the cell? Why did he come? Could you explain

5 that? It's unbelievable. It simply sounds unbelievable, so I'd like you

6 to explain.

7 A. First of all, we weren't friends for him to come and visit me

8 personally. Each time he came, the commander, Rogatica commander, was

9 always with him and they behaved as friends. And each time he toured the

10 prison or camp, every time TV cameras were with him. Now, why he entered

11 my cell each time, I really don't know, you'd have to ask him. But he

12 didn't come to see me personally, he was just touring the facilities and

13 he came into the cell. And it wasn't hard to see that he was drunk by the

14 smell, the odour and his behaviour.

15 JUDGE MAY: Very well. That's two minutes. Yes, Mr. Tapuskovic.

16 Questioned by Mr. Tapuskovic:

17 Q. [Interpretation] Witness, a moment ago you said that you knew

18 Mladic because you'd seen him many times on television; is that right?

19 A. Television, the papers, et cetera, yes.

20 Q. But I'm going back to this just to clarify one matter, because

21 here in paragraph 34 - will you look, please, at the Serbian version - you

22 said: "On the 31st of August, we heard a lot of noise," and then you

23 say, "Then a man came in whom I didn't know and who was drunk, and he

24 introduced himself as General Mladic."

25 So your explanation in the statement is different. You said that

Page 30633

1 somebody who came in was a person you didn't know. So could you explain

2 that, please.

3 A. When he talked in, I didn't. I didn't immediately recognise him.

4 But only when he started talking -- whenever somebody walked in, I had to

5 look down, I had to bow my head. I didn't dare look anyone in their eyes,

6 in their face. But when he started speaking, I immediately realised who

7 he was.

8 Q. Thank you. Now look at paragraphs 4 and 5, please. You talk

9 about the first clashes, and you mention the date of 4th of April, 1992,

10 and in paragraph 5 you say that you were able to repel Serb attacks. And

11 then you say that after those conflicts, bodies were exchanged. Were

12 there casualties on both sides as early as that, and then bodies of the

13 victims being exchanged? Could you explain to the Judges how many people

14 were killed and how many bodies would be exchanged on those occasions?

15 A. The first case, as you can see, was when those bodies that were

16 killed in 1992, there was a bus full of women and children that the Serbs

17 were holding captive. Those were from Rogatica, the women and children,

18 not from Zepa. And then that busload of women and children were exchanged

19 for the bodies. They had no family or anyone. And then those were the

20 bodies that our men were able to find.

21 Q. Whose bodies were they? Were they bodies of Muslim victims or

22 both sides?

23 A. The bodies of Serb soldiers were exchanged, were given to the Serb

24 side, and in return they gave us a bus full of women and children that

25 were held captive in Rogatica.

Page 30634

1 Q. Thank you. Just a few more points of clarification for Their

2 Honours linked to paragraphs 16 and 17. In Srebrenica, in Zepa, you were

3 during these critical events in June and July; right?

4 A. I was in Srebrenica, as I said already, for 15 days - I don't want

5 to repeat myself - and also prior to these last events when it was

6 relatively peaceful.

7 Q. But you were in Zepa when all these things were happening in July.

8 You were both in Srebrenica and in Zepa?

9 A. Yes, yes.

10 Q. So this unit that you belonged to, you said a moment ago, numbered

11 1.500 men; is that right?

12 A. Maybe less, about 1.200.

13 Q. And the members of that military unit, were they all armed?

14 A. No.

15 Q. And how many were armed?

16 A. I'm really unable to say because I really don't know.

17 Q. Then what did the people who were unarmed do? What were they

18 doing?

19 A. What weapons there were were used on the front lines, and people

20 would take shifts, and they didn't have any particular activities, those

21 who stayed down there.

22 Q. But in paragraph 16, in the middle of that paragraph, you say: "I

23 had normal duties, and my position was on the front lines in front of the

24 UN positions."

25 Does that mean that even on the front lines, in direct contact

Page 30635

1 with representatives of the UN, there were people without weapons?

2 A. Could you repeat your question? I don't understand.

3 Q. Please, will you look what you say in paragraph 16. "I had normal

4 duties, manning a position on the front lines in front of the UN

5 positions." In those positions on the front lines, were there people

6 without weapons?

7 A. I am unable to give you a very precise answer to that too.

8 Q. Well, what was happening on the front lines? Were there

9 conflicts?

10 A. No.

11 Q. Well, did your units go outside the boundaries of the

12 demilitarised zone?

13 A. Only if they went on foot, if people were travelling to Srebrenica

14 and back.

15 Q. Tell me just this, please, if you can explain to the Judges

16 regarding those events: How many victims were there among your fighters,

17 among your combatants during those ten days of fighting, as you say?

18 A. I can't give you an exact figure, because there was general chaos

19 afterwards, and --

20 Q. So you can't tell us exactly how many men from your unit, your

21 friends, your co-combatants were killed out of the 1.500 men?

22 A. I can't.

23 Q. But approximately?

24 A. I'd really rather not make any assessments.

25 Q. Were there victims?

Page 30636












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Page 30637

1 A. Yes.

2 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

3 MS. PACK: Your Honour, a couple of short questions. Could the

4 map in fact be put on the ELMO. And if the witness could be passed a pen.

5 A pen.

6 Re-examined by Ms. Pack:

7 Q. Witness, if you're able to, could you identify on the map that's

8 been put on the ELMO just to the left of you, could you identify on that

9 map, marked with an X, where it was approximately that you crossed the

10 Drina. If you're not able to help, then please say so.

11 A. [Marks]

12 Q. Thank you. Witness, you were asked questions about your father

13 and about his time in Serbia. He was kept there for some months, you

14 said, before going to the United States. Do you know where he was kept?

15 A. I don't know exactly, but it was some camp in the village of

16 Sljivovica. I don't know exactly where this is in Serbia.

17 JUDGE KWON: Just a second. If the witness can mark the place

18 where his father had crossed the Drina River before. Can you locate it on

19 the map?

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, because perhaps five or six days

21 before that, we had already parted. So I didn't know anything. I didn't

22 even know whether he was alive or anything.

23 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.

24 MS. PACK:

25 Q. And just finally, was he free to leave the location at which he

Page 30638

1 was kept or was he kept there as a prisoner?

2 A. He was a prisoner. He could not leave whenever he wanted to.

3 Even his mail was censored, and things like that.

4 MS. PACK: Your Honour, I have no further questions.

5 JUDGE MAY: Do you want that marked map, Ms. Pack, to be

6 exhibited?

7 MS. PACK: Yes, I would, Your Honour.

8 JUDGE MAY: Yes. That can be added as a tab to Exhibit 620,

9 tab --

10 THE REGISTRAR: Tab 3, Your Honour.

11 JUDGE MAY: Tab 3. Thank you.

12 Witness B-1619, that concludes your evidence. Thank you for

13 coming to the Tribunal to give it. You are now free to go. You will just

14 have to wait until the blinds are drawn before you do go.

15 We will adjourn now for 20 minutes.

16 [The witness withdrew]

17 --- Recess taken at 10.39 a.m.

18 --- On resuming at 11.06 a.m.

19 [The witness entered court]

20 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Let the witness take the declaration.

21 MR. WAESPI: One moment, please, Your Honours, if I may.

22 JUDGE MAY: Yes.

23 MR. WAESPI: If we could briefly go into private session for a

24 protective measure issue.

25 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Just take a seat.

Page 30639

1 [Private session]

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 [Open session]

11 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session.

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

13 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

14 JUDGE MAY: If you'd like to take a seat.


16 [Witness answered through interpreter]

17 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Waespi.

18 MR. WAESPI: Thank you, Mr. President.

19 Examined by Mr. Waespi:

20 Q. Good morning, Witness.

21 A. Good morning.

22 Q. If you could be shown a piece of paper with your name on it.

23 MR. WAESPI: And that's, Your Honours, the last exhibit, tab 11 of

24 his package.

25 Q. Could you please confirm that this is your name.

Page 30640

1 A. Yes, this is my name.

2 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters note: Could the witness please

3 be asked to speak louder and to come closer to the microphone. Thank you.

4 JUDGE MAY: You're being asked if you would, so the interpreters

5 could hear, if you would come closer to the microphone and speak up so

6 that we can hear.

7 Yes. We haven't yet got an exhibit number, I think, for this

8 package. It may be convenient to deal with that now.

9 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, 621.

10 JUDGE MAY: Yes.


12 Q. Now, Witness, I'm not sure whether the transcript has captured

13 that you have confirmed that this was your name. Can you please do it

14 again.

15 A. Yes, this is my name.

16 Q. Thank you very much, Witness. Now, did you testify in the Krstic

17 trial on 13 April 2000?

18 A. Yes, I did.

19 MR. WAESPI: Mr. President, we would like to suggest that this

20 package be admitted under 92 bis.

21 JUDGE MAY: Yes, it is.

22 MR. WAESPI: And with your permission, I'd like to read out a

23 brief summary of the testimony of this witness.

24 This witness is a Bosnian Muslim who was only 17 years old when

25 the Srebrenica enclave fell. Although many of Srebrenica's Muslims sought

Page 30641

1 refuge at the UN base in Potocari, the witness fled into the woods because

2 he feared for his life.

3 The witness joined a column of 1 to 2.000 mostly unarmed Muslim

4 men who tried to escape through the woods towards Tuzla and eventually

5 surrendered along the Bratunac-Konjevic Polje road. He was then taken to

6 a meadow near Sandici where approximately 1.000 to 2.000 captured Muslim

7 men gathered. They were guarded by soldiers, and one of them told the

8 detained men that the soldiers were from Serbia.

9 Shortly thereafter, another group of soldiers arrived and made the

10 men clap their hands and sing "Long live the King, long live Serbia."

11 Several hours later, the witness and the other men were taken on extremely

12 overcrowded buses to Bratunac where they were forced to spend the night

13 still packed onto these trucks with no food and very little water.

14 The next day, on July 14, 1995, in the morning, the trucks

15 continued to Zvornik and finally stopped at a location called Petkovci.

16 Around 3.00 or 4.00 in the afternoon, the men were taken into a school

17 building and crammed into classrooms under conditions perhaps even worse

18 than on the trucks.

19 Once inside, soldiers forced the men to say, "This is Serb land,

20 always was and always will be." They also shouted that Srebrenica had

21 always been and always would be Serb. The Muslim detainees were so

22 thirsty that they began to drink their own urine. As night fell,

23 prisoners from other classrooms were taken out in groups of three to five

24 and shots were heard in front of the school.

25 Eventually, soldiers began leading the Muslim prisoners out of the

Page 30642












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Page 30643

1 school, tying their hands and loading them on a big truck. As the witness

2 left the school, he felt a sticky substance under his feet and saw a big

3 pile of what he thought were killed prisoners from the school. The truck

4 onto which the witness was loaded travelled for about five to ten minutes.

5 After it stopped, men were taken off the truck in groups of five, and each

6 time shots were heard. The men remaining on the bus tried to avoid

7 getting off, knowing that they would be executed. Some people shouted,

8 "Give us some water first and then kill us." And the witness felt sorry

9 that he would die thirsty and was trying -- and tried to hide amongst the

10 people as long as he could, like everybody else. He just wanted to live

11 another second or two.

12 When the witness was eventually removed from the bus, from the

13 truck, he was told to find a place by the Serb soldiers, and then he saw

14 rows and rows of dead bodies. The witness and the other men reached an

15 empty spot and were ordered by the soldiers to lie down. As the men tried

16 to lie down, the soldiers opened fire. The witness was shot in the right

17 side of his chest and lay suffering as the soldiers continued to line up

18 and shoot prisoners for what the witness estimates to be anywhere from ten

19 minutes to an hour.

20 As the witness lay bleeding, another group of prisoners was

21 executed next to him, and he was hit once again in his left foot, and

22 later he received another shot.

23 Once the shooting stopped, the witness heard the soldiers laughing

24 and mocking the dead Muslims. Then he heard someone ordering a soldier to

25 inspect the bodies to make sure no one had survived. The witness lay

Page 30644

1 silently as a military boot stepped next to his face and then watched as

2 the soldier fired a shot into the head of the man lying next to him.

3 After the soldiers left, the witness escaped with another man who was

4 wounded in the head. The two men helped each other with their teeth to

5 untie their hands and climbed through the forest up to a hill to a spot

6 that give them a view of the Petkovci dam area.

7 The next morning, from their vantage point on the hill, they saw a

8 yellow loader collecting dead bodies and loading them onto a tractor or a

9 truck. The witness saw a very large pile of bodies.

10 After four days walking through the woods, the witness and his

11 companion finally reached Muslim territory and safety.

12 With your permission, Your Honours, I would like to ask the

13 witness just a very few questions.

14 JUDGE MAY: Yes.


16 Q. Now, Witness, we heard that you escaped with your companion. Can

17 you tell the Court how important this companion was for you.

18 A. Actually, I never would have even tried to run away. I was just

19 waiting to die. I was suffering so badly. I was thinking of calling them

20 to shoot me.

21 Actually, I would have been grateful to them had they killed me, I

22 was suffering so badly. So if it hadn't been for this man, I never would

23 have even tried to do this. He's the only one who knows how badly I

24 suffered. Actually, I couldn't even walk. So then he'd leave me behind

25 and then come back and beseech me to go on, but it was so hard for me to

Page 30645

1 go on, it hurt so badly.

2 When that military boot stopped right by me, I thought, They're

3 going to kill me now, and I wanted to be killed then because I really

4 couldn't take it any longer. But I didn't dare call out to them.

5 Q. Now, we also heard that you were wounded a second time and a third

6 time. Can you describe to Their Honours how that occurred.

7 A. Well, you said that it was a bus but it was actually trucks that

8 we were on. So shooting was heard, and it was quite clear to everyone

9 that this was the end. So people didn't want to get off. Serb soldiers

10 were yelling, saying that we had to get off or otherwise they'd come and

11 get us. We were all hiding behind each other. So I had to get off too.

12 When I came there, they told us to choose our place. I didn't

13 know what place they meant. And as I got closer, I saw that there were

14 rows of corpses there. Everything happened so fast. And I thought I'd

15 die soon, I wouldn't suffer. And I thought my mama will never know where

16 I am. And some of the soldiers said that we'd fall then and then the

17 firing started.

18 I just know that I was hit on the right side, in the right arm. I

19 really cannot remember the moment when I was actually hit. I felt the

20 stench of gunpowder. There were bullets flying all around me, hitting

21 other people, and I was just waiting for the next one to hit me. When the

22 next row was hit, then a bullet hit me in the foot. That hurt the worst.

23 I wish I could have screamed, but I didn't dare to.

24 The man next to me was moaning so badly as he was dying, that he

25 was heard a great deal. That's why perhaps the soldier didn't hear me.

Page 30646

1 He came and he simply shot the man next to me in the head. So when he --

2 they probably used tracer bullets. I still have -- fragmentation bullets,

3 actually, and two of them grazed me on the neck, and I was wondering, My

4 goodness, why don't I just die?

5 Q. Witness, let me briefly ask you about your father. Was he with

6 you when you left the enclave towards the woods?

7 A. He was with me at first, but later on we got lost. I lost him,

8 actually. I was holding onto him. So when all of this commotion started

9 and this chaos, I got lost. I was on my own.

10 Q. Did you see him again?

11 A. No, never.

12 Q. Was your uncle with you at that time as well?

13 A. Well, I found him later. Actually, I found him several times and

14 lost him several times. Later on, I found him, and he was probably killed

15 too. His daughter was only a year old then.

16 Q. And a final question: We heard that you didn't want to go to the

17 UN base in Potocari because you feared for your life. Can you explain to

18 the Judges what you meant by that.

19 A. Well, actually when the attack on Srebrenica started, and actually

20 even before that, it became obvious that UNPROFOR could not protect us.

21 Actually, they were dancing to the tune of the Serbs, something like that.

22 I was close to the line, close to the UNPROFOR points, and I saw

23 that as soon as the Serbs started shooting, UNPROFOR would leave, even

24 before the refugees started pouring in. So I decided not to go to

25 UNPROFOR. Perhaps my chance of surviving was greater if I went through

Page 30647

1 the woods, and perhaps more people survived among those who went through

2 the woods.

3 Two relatives of mine, or, rather, quite a few of them, but the

4 two I saw right there when we parted, they went to the military base.

5 Both of them were killed, and one was exhumed a year ago.

6 Many of my relatives -- actually, none of my close relatives

7 really survived. All of them were killed regardless of whether they went

8 through the woods or to the UNPROFOR base.

9 Q. And my last question is: Are you surprised to what has happened

10 to you and your colleagues in July 1995, having lived in the Srebrenica

11 enclave for a while as a refugee?

12 A. In actual fact, I wasn't surprised. It's the same thing that

13 awaited us in 1992, but we managed to flee. In 1992, also in the

14 beginning of May, the Serb army torched our house, and we escaped thanks

15 to our neighbour. However, it was the same fate that awaited us there,

16 like in Vlasenica and elsewhere. So it was just this killing of ours that

17 was postponed. Perhaps I would have not lost my life myself, but most

18 Muslims were killed, and my father was killed too. And I'm not saying

19 this just like that. I'm saying it on the basis of what happened to my

20 neighbours who decided to stay on, who did not want to flee. They were

21 all killed.

22 MR. WAESPI: Thank you, Mr. President. I have no further

23 questions.

24 JUDGE KWON: If the witness could give the year of his birth, in

25 open session or in private session, either.

Page 30648












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Page 30649

1 MR. WAESPI: Yes. I would prefer private session, please.

2 [Private session]

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 [Open session]

9 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session.

10 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Milosevic.

11 Cross-examined by Mr. Milosevic:

12 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. 1401, you gave a few statements about the

13 events that you're testifying about; is that right?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. You gave the first statement on the 19th of July, 1995, to the

16 command of the 246th Mountain Brigade, to the security organ of the army

17 of Bosnia-Herzegovina; is that right?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. And you gave your second statement to the state security service

20 in Tuzla of the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina, on the 31st of July, 1995.

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Finally, you gave a statement to the investigators, first on the

23 12th and 13th of August, 1995, and then on the 19th of August, 1996, and

24 brief notes on the 4th of January and the 1st of September, 1999. But in

25 order to handle this better, perhaps we can call the statement to the

Page 30650

1 investigators the third statement. Is that right?

2 A. Well, I know approximately all the statements that I gave. And

3 then when you show me the statement, then I can tell you, well, yes,

4 that's my statement.

5 Q. I assume that they are yours because I received them from the

6 opposite side.

7 A. Well, then they are.

8 Q. I think so because they bear their numbers as well.

9 In the beginning of the month of July 1995 when the conflict broke

10 out in Srebrenica, you were a minor; is that right?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Until then, with your parents and your sisters, you lived at

13 Slapovci, a refugee centre near Tuzla, seven or eight kilometres away?

14 A. Slapovici is the name.

15 Q. Please correct me if I make a mistake because I am not familiar

16 with these localities so mistakes are possible.

17 A. All right.

18 Q. With your family, when the conflict broke out, you went towards

19 Suceska; is that right?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And you stayed in the village of Viogor; is that right?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Where there were a large number of people from Srebrenica and the

24 surrounding area; is that right?

25 A. Yes.

Page 30651

1 Q. In this third statement, I am referring to the statement given to

2 the investigators --

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. -- in August 1995, in paragraph 2 you've said that your father

5 said to you then that you should decide for yourself whether you want to

6 go with the column of women and children to the UNPROFOR base in Potocari

7 or to stay with the other military-aged men and try to reach the liberated

8 territory. Is that what you stated?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. However, in your first statement, given on the 19th of July, 1995,

11 as well as your second statement, of the 31st of July, 1995, you stated

12 that then somebody issued an order that all military-aged men and

13 able-bodied men go to Jaglici and Susnjari and further on to Tuzla; is

14 that right?

15 A. Could you just repeat what you said just now, this last sentence,

16 what you said?

17 Q. I'm just trying to establish the following: A few minutes ago,

18 you confirmed to me what it says in the statement given to the

19 investigators, that your father said to you that you should decide for

20 yourself.

21 A. Yes, yes.

22 Q. And in the first statement, of the 19th of July, and the second

23 statement, of the 31st of July, you say, and now I'm quoting you, that:

24 "Somebody then issued an order for all military men capable of serving in

25 the military to set off towards Jaglici and Susnjari and then carry on

Page 30652

1 towards Tuzla."

2 A. I don't understand. What's in dispute? I mean, what are you

3 trying to ask me?

4 Q. I'm just trying to establish whether, as you said in the statement

5 to the investigators, whether you decided on your own because your father

6 told you to decide on your own and then you went where you went in

7 accordance with your own decision or was this based on an order that was

8 issued, which is on the first page of your first statement, somewhere

9 around the middle of the page. Somebody -- someone issued the order for

10 all men of serving -- capable in serving in the military or, rather, all

11 men to set out towards Jaglici and Susnjari and then to carry on towards

12 Tuzla.

13 A. I'll explain. I think -- it's not that I strictly said that

14 somebody issued an order. Actually, we heard that someone had issued an

15 order, or, rather, that someone had said that all military-age able-bodied

16 men should go, or that would be a good thing, something like that. And

17 what my father said to me, that has nothing to do with these orders. He

18 said that I could decide for myself. Everybody could decide for

19 themselves whether they would go there, to Potocari, or somewhere else.

20 So we heard that an order had been issued but it wasn't a strict order.

21 Everybody decided for themselves.

22 Q. I don't want to hurt you in any way in view of what you've been

23 through, but I just want to establish what actually happened. So I'm just

24 asking you about the facts and what you said. And also, you say in your

25 own statement: "In Viogor, after one day, my mother and three sisters

Page 30653

1 went towards Potocari, hoping that they would find protection in the

2 UNPROFOR camp, and I, together with my army, went on orders from the

3 command of the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina." That's what it says quite

4 literally. "Together with all other able-bodied men I went to Susnjari.

5 At Susnjari there was a line-up of about 15.000 men." Is that what you

6 stated in this statement?

7 A. All the details are not covered in the statement. Two or three

8 pages are not sufficient for me to say everything. And depending on what

9 the investigators asked me, I answered, so I may not have remembered all

10 the details. You can have a look when I gave the statement, as soon as I

11 crossed into that territory. Maybe I didn't remember all the details.

12 We had heard that somebody had issued the orders. Probably the

13 army of Bosnia and Herzegovina. Not the Serbs, surely. Who else could

14 have given such an order?

15 Q. In this second statement of yours which you gave to the state

16 security service in Tuzla on the 31st of July, you say that upon orders of

17 the army command together with the others, you enter Susnjari and you

18 lined up together with the other 15.000 men; is that right?

19 A. All these statements are correct. All you're saying is correct,

20 only some statements have more details, another one has less details, but

21 it is all true. We heard it. I didn't receive a piece of document, a

22 piece of paper with the order on it or a document, but we heard that the

23 command had issued such an order and that is what I said.

24 Q. And then there was a lineup. You were lined up; is that right?

25 A. It didn't go as smoothly as it is stated in the statement. There

Page 30654












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Page 30655

1 were a large number of civilians there. You're trying to say that these

2 were soldiers, but it wasn't so.

3 Q. Witness, I'm not trying to say anything, I'm just trying to

4 establish the truth. So there was a line-up, and there were some 15.000

5 of you lining up there; is that right?

6 A. Actually, I and the civilians and many others had decided to go

7 there, and it was only later on, after the line-up, that the civilians

8 were the last. So the army didn't really let us go. Maybe all the

9 details are not given there. The army told us to stay last. That is what

10 I heard, at least. There were crowds there. There was shelling. There

11 was general confusion. I even got lost. I lost my father, then I'd find

12 him again, because I was trying to move on together with the army, but the

13 soldiers would chase us away.

14 Q. I understand that, but let's clear up one point. A witness

15 testified before you from the same area who was mobilised to the army of

16 Bosnia and Herzegovina who was also underage. Were you a member of the

17 army of Bosnia-Herzegovina or not?

18 A. I would have been happy to be one, and if I had a weapon, this

19 probably wouldn't have happened in this way. I may have got killed in the

20 woods somewhere, but not like this.

21 Q. I see. So you just joined this military column; is that right?

22 A. Yes, of course.

23 Q. How many civilians were there attached to that military column?

24 A. It's difficult to estimate. There were many people, but there

25 were far more civilians than soldiers. I could see by the weapons,

Page 30656

1 whether they were carrying a weapon or not.

2 Q. Was your father at the time a member of the 284th Brigade?

3 A. I'll have to explain that. Actually, my father was a member of

4 the brigade until Srebrenica was demilitarised. When it was

5 demilitarised, he was no longer a soldier. He may have formally been a

6 soldier on paper, but he didn't have a weapon. Throughout the period of

7 conflict, when the attack on Srebrenica started, he was with us, with us

8 children and my mother. He never went to the front line. So that's the

9 kind of soldier he was.

10 Q. And who was his commander? Who was in command of the 284th

11 Brigade?

12 A. I don't know. I don't know which brigade it is. I just recalled

13 and I said it. I remember him saying that he was in that brigade, but I

14 can't remember who was the commander and where the brigade was, because

15 the area was demilitarised.

16 Q. I understand that, but as far as I know, even though it was a safe

17 area and proclaimed to be demilitarised, Naser Oric's 28th Division was

18 there in Srebrenica, wasn't it?

19 A. Yes, maybe. I can't talk about that at any length, but I'll tell

20 you as much as I know.

21 Q. But you know that, don't you?

22 A. Yes, I heard that. I didn't see the army acting.

23 Q. Now, tell me, please --

24 A. Can I just add something? This 28th Division, after the

25 demilitarisation, may have been there only formally, because they were

Page 30657

1 condemned to failure anyway even before that. And when the weapons were

2 taken away, I think they really existed only in form and not in reality,

3 not a unit that could have done any harm to anyone.

4 Q. Now, tell me, please, this column that was lined up and set off,

5 its aim was to break its way through to Tuzla; is that right?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. In your first statement as well as in your second statement, you

8 say that that column, close to the village of Kamenica, was ambushed by

9 Serb forces, as you say; is that right?

10 A. Could you repeat that, please?

11 Q. You say this in both your first and second statement, that close

12 to the village of Kamenica the column was ambushed by Serb forces, as you

13 say; is that right?

14 A. Just a moment, please. There aren't enough details there, but

15 I'll explain everything. Everything is right, but let me just add

16 something.

17 The column wasn't moving smoothly. The shelling had started much

18 earlier on, and there were many killed, and there were many people who

19 went mad. So it wasn't ambushed all at once. This happened later.

20 Q. You say that, "The column was broken up and divided into two and

21 that a large number of people were killed there or seriously wounded and

22 that there was widespread panic so that I, too, was separated from my

23 father and I only had my Uncle Dzemal next to me."

24 So there was a conflict there. The place is called Siljkovici.

25 In brackets it says Kamenica. I'm just reading from your statement. And

Page 30658

1 that is where the column was divided up. There were many casualties, many

2 people dead and many wounded and widespread panic.

3 A. Let me just add, the statement is an abbreviated version of

4 things, but let me explain. The column went quietly for a short time.

5 After that, it was constantly exposed to shelling. The column continued.

6 They picked up the wounded as they could, and then the real shelling

7 became so heavy that it was not possible to move forward. And I assume

8 the column was broken off, I couldn't see it from the air or anything, I

9 wasn't in a plane.

10 Q. But that is when the fighting started between the Serb forces and

11 your forces, is that right, in that column?

12 A. We could hear the shooting in front of us all the time, and there

13 were shells falling around us. There were many dead people. There was a

14 conflict in front of us. And as I reached the spot, I saw that there were

15 a large number of people killed.

16 Q. So that was the battle that took place before you reached it?

17 A. Yes. We reached there afterwards, once the army had passed, so we

18 stayed behind there. So I remember when a man wanted to join the soldier,

19 the soldier wouldn't let them. They would chase them away. "You can't do

20 that," they would say. But there were many people wounded. There were a

21 lot of us, and they wouldn't let us go with them because the army couldn't

22 pass either because there were many people wounded. There was a lot of

23 yelling and shouting and screaming.

24 Q. So the army broke through and left you behind; is that right?

25 A. They tried to save themselves. Otherwise, if they had taken all

Page 30659

1 of us with them, I don't think anyone would have survived.

2 Q. And in this breakthrough, there were a large number of dead; is

3 that right?

4 A. Yes. Yes, when I reached that spot, I saw many dead people. But

5 even before, there were many bodies left behind in the woods because no

6 one could help them. This hurt me. I -- this moved me. There was a

7 young man crying and begging not to be left behind, but he couldn't be

8 picked up. People were just trying to save their lives because there were

9 shells falling all around.

10 Q. I understand. So actually, the greatest part of the military

11 column broke through. Some were killed. Those who were not killed or

12 wounded managed to break through, and they left you behind; is that right?

13 They couldn't take you with them.

14 A. There were far more wounded, I would say, than dead. A part of

15 the army, maybe the first part, was cut off. So maybe a part of the army

16 clashed with the Serbs. They were broken up. But the largest part may

17 have reached close to free territory, and they had to fight their way

18 through. You know, 15.000 men going one behind another makes an enormous

19 column.

20 Q. Yes, I understand that. But the part closer to the front line

21 managed to break through, and the part that was further away from the

22 front line didn't manage; is that right?

23 A. Let me just say the column was moving. The soldiers were up in

24 front. I assume so. Maybe there have been one, two, 3.000 men with

25 weapons, and they were up front. And when the column was broken into two,

Page 30660












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13 English transcripts.













Page 30661

1 most of them stayed behind. Some of them broke through, then were killed.

2 Those were soldiers, but others were civilians. Maybe one or two were

3 armed.

4 Q. There must have been more than 3.000 soldiers, as you say.

5 A. I didn't say 3.000. I said one, two, 3.000. But I don't believe

6 that there were more. Maybe on paper there may have been many soldiers

7 who were registered as such. Like my father. There may have been many

8 more like that. But you can't say that they were soldiers.

9 Q. I'm just trying to establish the facts. So do you really believe

10 that there couldn't have been more than 3.000 men with weapons?

11 A. I don't believe so.

12 Q. I see. But on paper there were more, you say. You can't see that

13 on the spot, as the column is moving, who is a soldier on paper.

14 A. After the demilitarisation of the area, they may have still been

15 recorded as soldiers, but they weren't really soldiers.

16 Q. So according to the best of your knowledge, there were not more

17 than 3.000 armed men in that column.

18 A. Maybe even fewer than that.

19 Q. Since you say that on that occasion a large number of people were

20 killed, there was a lot of panic, let us just have a look at the first

21 statement of the 19th of July when you describe what happened after that.

22 You say that, "In the woods where I was with the others, I stayed for one

23 day and one night. Throughout that time, the Chetniks kept shelling the

24 place with Pragas, self-propelled anti-aircraft guns and anti-aircraft

25 machine-guns and other weapons. That day people started arguing and

Page 30662

1 killing each other. Some wanted to surrender and others did not."

2 Was that how it was?

3 A. I have to add something. So this column, this army, they were

4 maybe ten or 15 kilometres in front of us. So we remained there,

5 surrounded. I assume we were surrounded. We didn't dare go anywhere.

6 And the soldiers were calling out over the loudspeaker for us to

7 surrender. Before that, there was shelling all the time. There were many

8 people there. And when they started calling and telling us to surrender

9 on the loudspeaker, and they said, "You will be escorted in accordance

10 with the Geneva Conventions. If you don't surrender, you will be killed."

11 The shelling had stopped then. And some people didn't wouldn't to go.

12 Actually, some were in -- actually, it was just chaos. There were a lot

13 of people wounded. People were dying. People were hallucinating. You

14 could see men going crazy. They were yelling at night and -- this was a

15 consequence of the conflict. When the Serbs were calling on us to

16 surrender, the people who didn't want to would kill themselves. There

17 weren't that many who did that, we didn't all go and kill ourselves. A

18 few. I saw two or three cases of suicide.

19 Q. And you say they started quarreling amongst themselves and killing

20 each other. So they were clashing -- clashes amongst them.

21 A. Yes. They started arguing, but not killing each other, I meant

22 killing themselves. I don't know in which statement I said this.

23 I didn't see anyone killing someone else there.

24 Q. I'm examining you only on the basis of the written statements

25 received from the other side, and you say at the beginning of the second

Page 30663

1 page of the statement I'm quoting from: "In the woods I was in with the

2 other men, I stayed for one day and one night, and throughout that time

3 the Chetniks were shelling the place with Pragas, PAMs, and other weapons.

4 That day, people started arguing amongst themselves and killing each

5 other. Some wanted to surrender and others did not. At one point a

6 column headed towards the village of Sandici, and my cousin and I joined

7 that column."

8 That's what I'm asking you about.

9 A. So what are you asking me?

10 Q. In your second statement, you say that, "In Kamenica, a large

11 number of people were killed and many were wounded by shells. A certain

12 number of our men committed suicide." Is that true?

13 A. It is true, but let me add something. So a part of the people

14 decided to surrender. We were in the woods. We didn't know where we

15 were, in fact. We were lost. And the previous day and all night until

16 morning, there was shelling. There was fighting and shooting.

17 That morning, it was quiet, and we were treading over the dead,

18 the wounded. And when they started calling out, people didn't want to

19 surrender until about 3.00. Those who did decide, they joined this

20 column. Others who didn't, some fled. I saw one or two, three cases of

21 people killing themselves. That's as many as I saw. But this is

22 negligible compared to the number killed. There were far more wounded

23 people. So many stayed behind in the woods.

24 Q. I understand that, but there was also a clash amongst the people

25 there themselves.

Page 30664

1 A. Will you tell me where exactly I say that they were killing each

2 other. Which statement?

3 Q. It is in the first statement, on page 2. At the top of the page,

4 in the fourth line, you say exactly, and I'm quoting you: "They started

5 arguing and killing each other or amongst themselves." It is at the

6 beginning of the second page. You say: "They started arguing amongst

7 themselves and killing each other."

8 A. They started quarreling, yes, but they didn't kill each other. It

9 may have happened if that had gone on, but I didn't see anyone kill anyone

10 else.

11 Q. I'm just telling you what it says here.

12 A. I understand what I'm reading. You're trying to persuade me that

13 I said one thing, but this sentence is rather ambiguous, and it can be

14 interpreted in two different ways.

15 Q. You said that the army had gone forward, in front, and that the

16 people who stayed in the woods were those who had joined the army. And if

17 they were shooting, they must have been armed. Did you have any weapons

18 there among the part of the column that you say consisted of civilians?

19 A. I told you, the army had almost passed through, and when the

20 column was cut in half, virtually all the civilians stayed behind and

21 maybe a small part of the army. I didn't see Serb soldiers. They were

22 shelling so hard that -- harder than any time before. Maybe in 1993, at

23 the beginning of the war. So the army had almost passed through.

24 Q. But what you considered to be the whole army, though the whole

25 column was virtually, consisted of able-bodied men following that order

Page 30665

1 and there were a few of you who still had weapons.

2 A. Maybe that is how it had been planned, that everyone should go,

3 but army was up front, and they left first. So one could say that we were

4 disappointed. We stayed behind them. And when the Serb army cut the

5 column in two, those who remained were virtually all civilians. So most

6 of the soldiers had passed through, but maybe a few were left behind.

7 Maybe a part of the army stayed behind.

8 Q. I'm asking you now about those who remained after the main body of

9 the army left. How many among those who remained were armed?

10 A. I don't know. Perhaps I happened to see someone with weapons but

11 they did not surrender later. They fled. I saw people who didn't want to

12 surrender, who simply fled. They didn't want to go and surrender. They

13 simply went in a different direction, through the woods or something. And

14 perhaps some of them who stayed behind did not surrender either. Not

15 everybody wanted to surrender.

16 Q. All right. I see that in the statement you gave to the

17 investigators you make no mention of these incidents of interfighting,

18 interkilling among the members of the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina. Did you

19 mention this to the investigators at all or did they simply decide to

20 leave it out? I assume that you told them the same things that you said

21 in the first two statements.

22 A. I gave this statement or, rather, these two statements that you

23 insist upon immediately after my survival, and I gave these statements to

24 the investigators much later. So perhaps I did not remember all the

25 details, but you keep insisting on them killing each other, killing each

Page 30666

1 other, and you keep insisting on it. It is ambiguous. I mean, I meant

2 that they were committing suicide. People were killing themselves in that

3 sense, but your way of putting it is that we were killing each other in

4 the sense of some people killing other people.

5 Q. Well, you said that a lot of people got killed during the fighting

6 during the breakthrough, that a large number got killed there.

7 JUDGE MAY: No. I think you've exhausted this topic. You've been

8 over and over it sufficiently.

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] May I just add one more thing, just

10 one more thing?

11 JUDGE MAY: Yes.

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Actually, we cannot call this a

13 breakthrough. When the Serb army severed that column, most of them were

14 civilians. I recognised so many neighbours. So it cannot be called a

15 breakthrough when they cut through this column, then they surrounded the

16 civilians. Perhaps there was a soldier or two there from that column that

17 they had broken up, yes.

18 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

19 Q. Mr. 1401, they could not have known whether you were civilians or

20 not. You were part of this column that was fighting them; is that right?

21 How could they know from a distance whether you were, because you were a

22 part of the column consisting of able-bodied men, and you were asked to

23 surrender in accordance with the Geneva Conventions, so they considered

24 you to be the military.

25 A. Well, later on, too. You can understand this any way you want. I

Page 30667

1 don't know what they considered us to be, but they planned to kill us, to

2 kill all of us.

3 Q. What they were planning then will certainly have to be

4 established, but tell me, please -- actually, just one more thing quite

5 specific. Did this happen on the 12th of July?

6 A. Can I just add one more thing? Well, while the army was passing

7 there, there was no conflict. It could be seen very well. There are

8 meadows after the forest, and you can see very well whether it's military

9 or civilians. The Serbs did not kill those who had went ahead -- who had

10 gone ahead. Only when the remainder came, that's when they cut through

11 the column and started killing people. But the army had already passed

12 ahead.

13 Q. Oh, are you trying to say that they allowed the army to pass

14 without fighting and then they started shooting and killing you?

15 A. Well, there would have been a conflict in that case, and then some

16 of them would have gotten killed too. So that's what I saw and that's

17 what I infer on the basis of what I saw.

18 Q. Tell me, was this on the 12th of July? I'm asking you this

19 because of some other witnesses who testified here. I just want to

20 establish the date. Was this on the 12th of July?

21 A. On the 11th we set out, and we spent the night in the forest, and

22 the next day was the 12th when they called --

23 Q. Since you spent a day and night in that forest, on the following

24 day, that is to say on the 13th of July, is that right, together with 600

25 other members of that group of yours on the road between Kasaba and

Page 30668

1 Bratunac, you surrendered to the Serb forces; is that right?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. All right. You say in your first statement: "As we were getting

4 out to the asphalt road linking Kasaba and Bratunac, the Chetniks placed a

5 tank there, a transporter, and we all came down onto the asphalt with our

6 hands up. At that point the Chetniks took all our belongings; money,

7 guns, and other valuables." Is that right? That's what is written here.

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. In your second statement, you say: "After a day and night spent

10 in the forest, we went to the asphalt road where the bridge we saw

11 Chetniks with tanks and APCs who ordered us to raise our hands and drop

12 the grenades, pistols, and German marks we had or we would be killed. We

13 all obeyed their order."

14 So when they issued the order, you surrendered your weapons. That

15 means that you did have weapons.

16 A. Well, that's the way it looks when -- if the soldiers were saying

17 it, but they were saying that the soldier -- the soldiers were saying that

18 people who had weapons should surrender them, or those who had knives or

19 razors or something. But nobody had a weapon. I don't remember seeing

20 anyone with a weapon.

21 Q. To hand over weapons that you did not have?

22 A. Wait a minute.

23 Q. You came across them, they asked you to surrender and to lay your

24 weapons down, but you claim that you had no weapons; is that it?

25 A. The same thing happened in my village in 1992. People surrendered

Page 30669

1 their weapons and yet again they were asking for weapons. They just kept

2 asking for weapons without any reason for doing so. Perhaps they were

3 afraid that somebody had a pistol in their jackets or in their bags or

4 something like that. That's what they were afraid of.

5 Q. Oh, so that's what they were afraid of. They could not see

6 whether you had any weapons or not. Wasn't it visible? It was in broad

7 daylight. They say surrender your weapons, and don't they see that you

8 don't have any weapons?

9 A. They said that we should leave all our things, whoever had money.

10 "Don't you let us find a razor on any one of you." Perhaps they thought

11 that somebody had a pistol in the pockets of their coats or something but

12 I didn't see anybody with a rifle or something.

13 Q. I'm not insisting on you saying something that you said you did

14 not see. So tell me now, do you know that in the ranks of the army of

15 Bosnia-Herzegovina, in that area, there was a considerable number of

16 persons who were underage who had been mobilised?

17 A. Just one more thing that I wish to add in response to the other

18 question, then I'm going to answer this question.

19 I already told you that some soldiers in the forest who had rifles

20 simply left. They didn't even surrender. Perhaps there was a soldier or

21 two or something like that. But I didn't see anybody like that with me.

22 There was no one like that where I was.

23 Q. All right. Tell me, please, do you know how many minors were

24 mobilised into the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina?

25 A. I don't know about the number of minors or whether there were any

Page 30670

1 minors. Perhaps there were, perhaps there weren't, but I don't know.

2 Let me just add one more thing. Actually, nobody was forced to go

3 into the army because people did not have any weapons. I mean, even

4 people who were of age and who were able-bodied did not have weapons.

5 People would have liked to have been in the army perhaps. Perhaps I would

6 have liked to have been in the army too because that would have given me

7 greater chance of survival.

8 Q. I'll try to go through all of this as fast I can, all of these

9 questions. Please, tell me, since we stated at the beginning that 15.000

10 of you set out after the line-up, then this conflict occurred, the army

11 broke through and part of you stayed behind. During this breakthrough,

12 how many people actually got killed? What is your estimate? Out of the

13 15.000 of you who had set out, how many people got killed?

14 A. Not everybody was killed there. I didn't see all the persons who

15 were killed, so this is a very approximate estimate. Perhaps I saw about

16 500 men. One person was lying by a beech tree, and then one person was

17 without a face, and -- well, say about 500. I don't know. I mean, I

18 didn't look through the entire forest. I was only in part of the forest.

19 Q. But in the part of the forest that you saw, during that

20 breakthrough, about 500 men were killed, or perhaps more. That's what you

21 said; right?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And that pertains to the part of the forest that you saw.

24 A. Yes. Because I know that I was walking across bodies. There were

25 so many people killed, and then also they were victims of shells, because

Page 30671

1 you would see people without faces, hands, whatever.

2 Q. You say that the soldiers who took you prisoner then introduced

3 themselves and they said that they were from Serbia. Is that what you're

4 saying? That was my understanding --

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. -- on the basis of the summary. So they introduced themselves to

7 you and said they were from Serbia.

8 A. Yes, when we were lined up down there, where they lined us up

9 there and when they took our things away. Then we ran for about two or

10 three kilometres, I don't know exactly, with our hands up. And then we

11 came to a meadow where there was a tank where there were a lot of

12 soldiers. I mean, I wasn't the first one to get there, there were others

13 who had already arrived, and there were probably people there on the

14 meadow even beforehand, and there was a burned Muslim village there that

15 had been burned, I don't know when, before that. So --

16 Q. Just a moment, please.

17 A. We came to the meadow and a soldier stood there in front, and I

18 heard this very well. He had something on his head, and he said, "We are

19 from Serbia." He was really full of himself. It's not only that. He

20 started lecturing us there. He was acting really smart.

21 I remembered some of this, but usually I did not listen, and I was

22 with my head down.

23 Q. I understand that, 1401. I heard just now when your summary was

24 read that these soldiers made you shout Long live the King and things like

25 that. Is that right?

Page 30672

1 A. When this soldier gave this lecture -- or, rather, the wounded

2 were there in front, perhaps I was smaller so I couldn't see them very

3 well, but later on when I was boarding the truck I did not see them. He

4 said, "You see these comrades of yours? You should have surrendered

5 earlier. You're going to be exchanged when your authorities ask for you.

6 You're going to the hangar in Bratunac now." And then he said, mockingly,

7 "You're not getting any dinner." It seemed ridiculous. There were so

8 many of our men who were killed there, we were all terrified, and he's

9 saying you're not getting any dinner. But he was laughing probably

10 because he knew what lay in store for us.

11 And when we lay there on the ground with our abdomens on the

12 ground and we had to shout "Long live the King" and it resounded through

13 the valley and our hands were up -- I haven't finished.

14 Q. You don't have to give me the entire description now but isn't it

15 clear to you these could not have been soldiers from Serbia who were

16 forcing you to shout "Long live the King"?

17 A. I cannot confirm that they are from Serbia or that they're not

18 from Serbia, but the fact is -- the fact is that the soldiers said that.

19 And the fact is that we shouted that while they were probably killing the

20 wounded, because later on I saw a soldier shooting at the house. And my

21 uncle who was there said that a man was missing, a man who they probably

22 took away. So they probably killed the wounded over there.

23 Q. All right. But you just confirmed this, that these soldiers that

24 you thought were from Serbia, they told you to shout "Long live the King."

25 A. I didn't think anything. The soldiers said, "We are from Serbia."

Page 30673

1 I'm not saying anything what I think; I heard this very well.

2 Q. But he said that and then he forced you to shout "Long live the

3 King." Now tell me, please, from Kamenica you were transferred by trucks,

4 as you said in your statements given to the investigators, you were

5 transferred to Bratunac, and you spent the night there, one night, on

6 trucks; is that right?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. On trucks where it said Tuzlatrans. That's what was written on

9 the trucks. So it couldn't have been anybody from Serbia.

10 A. Oh, just a moment, please. That's not what was written on all the

11 trucks. On one of the trucks it said Tuzlatrans. It's not to say that

12 the trucks were from Tuzla and that we were going to Tuzla. It probably

13 belonged to a company. It just happened to be there. It happened to be

14 in their hands.

15 Q. And then from Bratunac they transferred you by trucks again to a

16 place where, as you said in your statement given to the investigators,

17 that you did not know where this place was, but you do know that this was

18 a school. That's what you said in your statement given to the

19 investigators: "They transferred us somewhere but we did not know where."

20 However, in your first statement, dated the 31st of July 1995, you say,

21 "On the following day they drove us in trucks towards Konjevic Polje and

22 then to Zvornik and Karakaj. And after that they allegedly went to Tuzla.

23 Underneath the tarpaulin I saw that they took us to a school in Petkovci."

24 So that is a quotation from your second statement.

25 Please, explain this to me now: How is it possible that in your

Page 30674

1 previous statement you said that as you were looking through the tarpaulin

2 you managed to notice that you were in front of the school in Petkovci

3 whereas in your statement that you gave later to the investigators you

4 said that you did not know where they took you to.

5 A. Just a moment. I'll explain. Actually, we didn't know where they

6 were taking us and I did not know it was a school when we were in front of

7 the school, but later, when I entered the school, I saw it was a school.

8 Later on, when I was taken into the school, I saw blackboards where

9 children write and I saw the kind of floor you have in a school, and

10 desks. It looked like a school.

11 Q. I'm just asking you the following: You saw this later, and in the

12 statement given to the organs of Bosnia-Herzegovina on the 31st of July

13 1995, you said that they brought you --

14 JUDGE MAY: Does it really matter? Does it really matter when he

15 found out it was a school? It's not disputed apparently that it was a

16 school.

17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] That's not the point. The point is,

18 Mr. May, that in the statement given to the investigators later, much

19 later, he says - this is on page 7, paragraphs 1 through 5 - that he was

20 not in a position to say where the school was. And in the previous

21 statement, he already knew that this was the school in Petkovci, according

22 to what the witness himself is saying.

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Which statement? In which

24 statement?

25 JUDGE MAY: [Previous translation continues]... let the witness

Page 30675

1 clarify the point.

2 You can deal with it without looking at the statement,

3 Mr. Witness. Just tell us, when did you find out it was a school, and

4 when did you find out it was in Petkovci?

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] After we entered the school. Before

6 that, we did not know that it was a school, but after we got into the

7 school, we saw blackboards, and there was even writing on the blackboards.

8 And perhaps I heard it from the people there too. There were things

9 written on the blackboards. Perhaps I didn't notice all of it, but

10 afterwards, after entering the school, I realised that it was a school.

11 JUDGE MAY: Just a moment. We're going to adjourn in a minute,

12 but let's clarify this. When did you find out that it was in Petkovci?

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know. I don't know whether

14 that is what is written here, that I found out that very moment, but I've

15 remembered just now. After we escaped, when we reached the free

16 territory, people were saying where we were as we were going through these

17 villages. They were saying, aha, it could be this or it could be that.

18 But then when we entered this place, we knew it was a school. So I

19 remember that we were talking to people and they said, aha, that could be

20 it, that could be Petkovci. And afterwards, I went there with the

21 investigators, so I confirmed that that was it.

22 JUDGE MAY: It's now time to adjourn. And just -- we are going to

23 adjourn now for 20 minutes, and Witness 1401, please don't speak to

24 anybody about your evidence until it's over. So don't speak to anybody,

25 and that includes the Prosecution, during the break. We will adjourn for

Page 30676

1 20 minutes.

2 Perhaps I might draw the attention of the Prosecution to this,

3 that we cannot sit beyond the usual time this afternoon. We have

4 obviously some more cross-examination, ten minutes or so, of this witness.

5 It's a question of whether you want to start the next witness or not. I

6 doubt we'll finish him in the time.

7 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, we have an administrative matter to

8 introduce some of the 92 bis packages for witnesses without cross. Maybe

9 perhaps that's the best way to proceed.

10 JUDGE MAY: Yes. And Mr. Nice has some matter he wishes to

11 introduce too.

12 MR. GROOME: Yes, Your Honour.

13 JUDGE MAY: It may be better to deal with that, and if we finish

14 early, I don't think there will be any complaint.

15 Yes, we will adjourn now. Twenty minutes.

16 --- Recess taken at 12.17 p.m.

17 --- On resuming at 12.45 p.m.

18 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Milosevic. You've got another ten minutes.

19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I'll do my best to complete my

20 examination in those ten minutes, Mr. May.

21 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

22 Q. Let us just clear up this, Mr. 1401. I'm going to read out this

23 sentence from your statement, because the point here is not the school

24 itself but Petkovci. That is the point of my question. You say in your

25 statement, and this is the one given on the 31st of July, on page 2: "I

Page 30677

1 saw under the canvas that they had brought us to a school in Petkovci."

2 So under the canvas you managed to see that they had brought you

3 to a school in Petkovci. And in your statement to the investigators,

4 you're unable to identify that school.

5 JUDGE MAY: I think he's explained that this was information which

6 he got later.

7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May, the school in Petkovci is

8 mentioned in the statement given on the 31st of July, and the statement to

9 the investigators was 12 days later. So in the statement he made on the

10 31st of July, he says, and I've quoted accurately, that he saw that they

11 had been brought in front of the school in Petkovci, and 12 days later he

12 doesn't know where they were brought to.

13 So what you say would be quite logical if the events were in

14 opposite sequence, but this statement given to the investigators was 12

15 days later in which he doesn't know where they were taken.

16 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

17 Q. So can you explain that, Witness 1401?

18 A. I can. Once we had reached free territory, that is before I gave

19 this statement, any statement, people were talking about where we were.

20 So I knew definitively that we had been in Petkovci on the basis of what

21 people were saying. Later on, when I made that statement, maybe I didn't

22 mention it because I wasn't something I knew, but it was information I got

23 from others. And the person who survived with me, maybe he knew. I'm not

24 quite sure, he may have known. We may have discussed it on the way, but

25 it was such a long time ago, I'm not quite sure. And after all this, the

Page 30678

1 statements came. So I may have said we were taken to a school, but people

2 were saying that the school was in Petkovci. So maybe in one statement I

3 didn't mention it, and in another I did. But the other person who

4 survived knows much more about that school, and I spoke to him about it,

5 but I can't remember all these details.

6 Q. I don't wish to bother you any further with those questions,

7 though you said that under the canvas you saw that you were brought to a

8 school in Petkovci.

9 A. Where does it say that?

10 Q. Please take your statement from the 31st of July. The 12th line

11 from the top, and I'm reading you the whole sentence from the full stop to

12 the full stop. "I saw under the canvas that they had brought us to a

13 school in Petkovci," full stop. That is what it says, 12th line from the

14 top, page 2, in your statement of the 31st of July. Twelve days later,

15 talking to the investigators, you don't know where you were taken. It

16 says clearly Petkovci. "I saw under the canvas that we had been brought

17 to the school in Petkovci."

18 A. Doesn't it say here to a school? It doesn't say which.

19 Q. Yes, but it says in Petkovci.

20 A. But on the basis of other information. I couldn't go into all

21 these details.

22 Q. Never mind. I think you've given us sufficient explanation.

23 A. Maybe I wasn't a hundred per cent sure. I described to the

24 investigators that it was a school and everything.

25 Q. I hope what you're saying is clear to anyone listening.

Page 30679

1 Now, tell me, please, you reached that school, according to what

2 you told the investigators, on the 14th of July. Is that right?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. And on the 15th of July, the next day, you survived the execution

5 that you describe. Is that right?

6 A. Actually, it was during the night. I'm not sure if it was the

7 14th or the 15th; it may or been before midnight or after midnight; it was

8 during the night.

9 Q. This execution that you described was survived also --

10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May, I don't know if I may

11 mention the name of that person. If not, let's go into private session,

12 please.

13 JUDGE MAY: We'll go into private session.

14 [Private session]

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 [Open session]

Page 30680

1 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session.

2 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

3 Q. Tell me -- I only have a few more questions for you. Do you know

4 who carried out the execution that you managed to survive?

5 A. I not sure who did it.

6 Q. Are you able to give us a description of any kind of the persons

7 who executed you and the others, or who shot at you and the others?

8 A. I can't remember all the details. Probably it was the Bosnian

9 Serb army, but I can't confirm that. I remember a detail in front of the

10 school when they forced us off the trucks. When we were beaten up in

11 front of the school, everyone had to stand and be beaten. And when the

12 man in front of me was waiting for his turn to come to be beaten, to be

13 beaten with rifle butts and so on, the soldier asked him, "Do you know

14 me?" And he said as follows: "Of course I know, brother." And then the

15 soldier said, "Who do you know?" He hit him with his rifle in his stomach

16 and then they started stamping on him and beating him up, as if he wasn't

17 supposed to know him. Then I heard that that man was from Zvornicka

18 Kamenica and that he used to be a colleague of his sometime in the past.

19 Q. You mentioned that on that occasion you heard that one of those

20 men was called Jovo. Can you tell me, did you hear any other name or

21 surname of a person who was there, anyone who was there? Because the only

22 fact I managed to find was that you mentioned that you heard somebody

23 being called Jovo. Can you remember any other name, first or last, of

24 anyone?

25 A. I cannot give you any name. I didn't know anyone. There were

Page 30681

1 probably people who recognised the soldiers where the shooting took place.

2 This happened during the night. You will never be able to understand the

3 circumstances, the feeling one has when you're taken out to be executed.

4 I just remember that one name. There may have been others mentioned, but

5 I haven't remembered them.

6 Q. Do you have any knowledge as to how many people were shot dead on

7 that occasion, according to what you have told us?

8 A. It is hard to make an estimate. I was crawling over the bodies

9 during the night. It was night-time. And when we reached the canal and

10 untied each other, it was only from the other hill that we saw the loader

11 loading bodies onto a tractor. The one who survived with me knows better

12 because I was in pain. I was wounded, I was suffering. And I know that

13 there were many people, as there was a loader being used, and I think I

14 pointed in another trial where this was, but it is difficult to tell how

15 many there were.

16 Q. But you must have had some impression as to how many of you there

17 were in the truck.

18 A. That doesn't mean that there was just one truckload of people that

19 were executed.

20 Q. Did you see any other trucks?

21 A. I couldn't see from the school whether there was a truck in front

22 of us. After us came a tractor or a truck, because you can't see during

23 the night. You could just see the nights. And when they reached the

24 spot, we heard them firing shots. We don't know whether they were killing

25 people or doing something else, but not with the same intensity or

Page 30682

1 frequency as when I was shot at.

2 Q. I'm trying to establish some sort of a figure. Could you assist

3 how many people were executed, to the best of your knowledge, on that

4 occasion?

5 A. It is very hard to say. I know that most of the people from the

6 school were killed. We could see that. I don't know how many classrooms

7 there were full of men, but when they were taken out, they were probably

8 all killed. Because you could hear when they said, "Ten people come out,"

9 then you heard bursts of fire. My classroom was the last. I don't know

10 whether that was the last truck too.

11 Q. How many of you were there in that classroom?

12 A. The classroom was full. Maybe as many as on the truck, maybe

13 more, I don't know. I can't say. It was full. We were sitting on top of

14 each other.

15 Q. I see. You can't tell me that either. Now, tell me, when did you

16 find out that this execution that you're testifying about was carried out

17 at the location Brnjice Djulici? I apologise if I'm mispronouncing the

18 names of those locations. I don't know whether my notes are correct.

19 Brnjice; is that right?

20 A. I knew earlier on. It's not far from Karakaj. I used to go to

21 Glinica and I knew that there was a dam there and some waterway, but I

22 don't know what it looked like. And I assumed, I wasn't sure, but later

23 on when we crossed into free territory and talking amongst ourselves, this

24 man and woman that we saw, they told us.

25 Q. Witness 1401, my question was when did you find out. So you

Page 30683

1 learned that when you crossed into free territory; is that right?

2 A. We didn't talk about that. Maybe this man who survived with me

3 may have known before, but I assumed that, and later on I found out

4 exactly. But this was before I made the statement.

5 Q. I'm asking you when did you find out what the location was?

6 A. When I crossed over.

7 Q. When you crossed over into free territory?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Fine. Now, tell me, please, did you know that before the

10 investigators took you to that spot for you to identify it, or did you

11 establish that when they took you there to the spot?

12 A. I assumed that that was it. People told me later on, "That is the

13 dam near Karakaj, Djulici." And I later went with the investigators to

14 confirm that that was the spot.

15 Q. Is that where the school in Petkovci is?

16 A. Not that close by. Petkovci is another village. I didn't know

17 about Petkovci.

18 Q. If you were detained in the school in Petkovci and then taken out

19 and executed -- so you were executed in front of the school in Petkovci.

20 A. They took us by truck to the dam.

21 Q. I see. They took you in a truck from Petkovci to the dam. And

22 you learnt about the spot when the investigators took you there to

23 identify it; is that right?

24 A. You keep saying, and I am telling you, I knew -- I assumed that it

25 was the dam there in Karakaj. Later, I learnt from others, once we had

Page 30684

1 crossed, when we reached this village, when we said where we had been,

2 when we described the spot, then they said what it was. I later just went

3 to confirm it with the investigators, and I confirmed that that was the

4 spot. It may have another name, I don't know what the name is, but I took

5 them to that spot.

6 JUDGE MAY: This must be your last question, Mr. Milosevic.

7 You've had well over ten minutes.

8 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

9 Q. I understood that you were wounded, because you explained that,

10 but in your first statement, of the 15th of July, you said that you were

11 wounded in the stomach area, and in your second statement in the chest,

12 the lower arm of your right hand. Where exactly were you wounded?

13 A. I was wounded on the right side - you can call it whatever you

14 like - and in my right arm. You can call it the right side of my chest or

15 whatever. So the investigators carried out detailed examinations and took

16 all the documents and the X-rays. You can call it as you like. You can

17 look at the X-rays.

18 Q. You said in your first statement that you were wounded in the

19 stomach. Afterwards, you said in the chest, and that is why I'm

20 inquiring, because I only just received the binder with the photographs,

21 which I haven't had time to look at, and that's why I asked you to explain

22 for me.

23 A. I don't know whether that is really important, whether it was the

24 stomach or the chest, but anyway it was my right side.

25 Q. Thank you, Witness 1401.

Page 30685

1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. May. I managed

2 within the time limit.

3 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would like to

4 make something clear. The statements that Mr. Milosevic showed the

5 witness here were translated into English over here. In addition to those

6 two statements and those that the witness gave to the investigators, and

7 that is the only thing that I will be dealing with, there is yet another

8 statement given to the investigative judge in Tuzla, and in this part of

9 the world it was the investigative judges who were always the most

10 professional of all in terms of conducting such investigations.

11 348/95 is the number that was assigned by that court of that

12 document, that is.

13 Questioned by Mr. Tapuskovic:

14 Q. [Interpretation] So do you remember, sir, that this statement that

15 you gave on the 24th of July, 1995, to the investigative judge, is yet

16 another statement that you gave, that you signed, and do you recall these

17 things that you mentioned in that statement?

18 A. I remembered that I gave a statement to judges, but I have

19 forgotten the date, and I've forgotten the year even. So I signed it when

20 I gave it. So that's it.

21 Q. Please look at the first page.

22 A. There seems to be something wrong.

23 Q. You'll see it can be found. There are a few pages there, and now

24 I'm going to show you a few things from that page that is in front of you.

25 Tell me, is that what you said to the investigative judge then? "We heard

Page 30686

1 that UNPROFOR from that elevation that it held then withdrew towards

2 Srebrenica." Do you remember having stated that?

3 A. That's my statement. That's true, yes.

4 Q. Then you move on to say that you went to the village of Viogor.

5 You explained that, I won't take you back to all of that. But then you

6 say there, "In that village, we heard that members of our army made the

7 Chetniks go back to their initial positions, and then our people withdrew

8 again, that is to say our forces had fallen back to their earlier

9 positions." Is that to say that there were conflicts there too and that

10 there were casualties?

11 A. Let me just add a few more details. All of this is correct.

12 Q. Oh, all of this is correct.

13 A. Let me just add something. The place that we came to, it's ten or

14 15 kilometres away from where the fighting was going on. It's a hill,

15 some heights that are very far away. But where we were, there was no

16 fighting.

17 Q. All right. But what is stated here is the way it was.

18 A. Could you please read this out to me again?

19 Q. "There we first heard that members of our army had pushed the

20 Chetniks back to their initial positions and soon after that they had

21 retreated again, that is that our forces had fallen back to their earlier

22 positions."

23 A. Oh, what we heard about the army, it did not pertain to us. It

24 pertained to the Zeleni Jadar road.

25 Q. But there was fighting between the members of the army of

Page 30687

1 Bosnia-Herzegovina who removed the Chetniks, as you had put it, from their

2 positions and they took them again and then there was fighting there.

3 A. Yes, that's what we heard.

4 Q. And then a few sentences later, you say: "In the morning we heard

5 from the army that it was expected that NATO aeroplanes would bomb the

6 Serb forces and tanks and that our forces were planning to execute a

7 counter-attack if that happened in order to retake the lost positions."

8 That means that you heard that from the representatives of the army of

9 Bosnia-Herzegovina that that is what would happen.

10 A. I think the statement is brief, so that's why not only details

11 were included. I gave the statement to the judges perhaps for two or

12 three hours.

13 THE INTERPRETER: Could Mr. Tapuskovic please not overlap the

14 witness. The interpreter could not hear the question.

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We saw that there were civilians

16 there and we saw that there were military people there, so that's what

17 happened.

18 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]

19 Q. And this is what you said and this is what you testified to here:

20 "I saw that NATO aircraft were flying over and dropping bombs. But the

21 bombs fell beside the tanks." Is that right?

22 A. It can be seen even if it is far away. I did not see the actual

23 bombs, I saw the smoke from the areas where the bombs were actually

24 falling and we saw the aeroplanes.

25 Q. But you didn't see the bombs.

Page 30688

1 A. How could I see the bombs? They were so far away.

2 Q. Did you hear them, at least?

3 A. Well, explosions were heard and shells, so perhaps it was hard to

4 distinguish between the two --

5 JUDGE MAY: Could you slow down so the interpreters have time.

6 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]

7 Q. Mr. Witness, you said that you saw this here with your very own

8 eyes.

9 A. Well, I saw this smoke where it is most probable that the bombs

10 fell, but I couldn't see the bombs themselves.

11 Q. Well, look a bit further down. I'm not going to go back to what

12 was already dealt with. And you say that in accordance with the order

13 issued by the command of the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina, there were 15.000

14 men lined up there, and you said, "We crossed the Chetnik line" and then

15 the name of the place is illegible. It says Buglic or --

16 A. Buljim.

17 Q. Oh, I see. And then you say: "From there --" or, rather, "It is

18 there that we crossed the Chetnik lines." Is that where there was a

19 breakthrough or what happened?

20 A. That's where the front line was, somewhere around there. But I

21 already said earlier on that the Serb army did not even clash with the BH

22 army because they had already left.

23 Q. Here you said that you went across the line.

24 A. But there were trenches there. It's a fact that that's where the

25 Chetnik line was.

Page 30689

1 Q. And then you arrived in the village of Kamenica, as you put it

2 here, that belongs to the village of Pobudje in Bratunac municipality.

3 "At the entrance to Kamenica we ran into a Chetnik ambush." Is that what

4 happened?

5 A. When there are so many people involved, when it's 5.000 or 2.000

6 people going, and when you hear gunfire, I mean, it wasn't that I was

7 looking at all this from an aeroplane.

8 Q. But you put this very clearly. Could you just tell me whether it

9 was the way you described it here.

10 A. But it's not marked here. I don't know where I said it. Which

11 page is it?

12 Q. It's all on the first page. All of this is on the first page,

13 towards the end. You mentioned the number of people who were in that

14 column, and then you say, we crossed the Chetnik column at such-and-such a

15 place and then we were ambushed.

16 A. It's a short statement. So not all details were mentioned. I

17 gave a statement to The Hague investigators for two days whereas I spoke

18 to these judges for two hours. So I don't see what you don't find very

19 clear here.

20 Q. I'm not saying anything. I'm saying that it's all very clear to

21 me. I just thought that you should tell the Trial Chamber whether this is

22 what happened, and if so, tell us, please, it says here that you saw 300

23 to 500 persons who had been killed. All of that happened before you were

24 taken prisoner; is that right?

25 A. Let me just say something. Well, it's a fact that the Serb lines

Page 30690

1 were around Srebrenica. We did not have a highway. We could not have

2 gone along a highway. So this is a fact. And what is in dispute? The

3 Serb army had probably left when we crossed the line.

4 Q. All right. Did you give the figure involving the persons who were

5 killed? They were killed before you were taken prisoner?

6 A. Yes, yes.

7 Q. In your statement that you gave on the 12th and 13th of August,

8 1995, that is to say only a few days after this statement, so this is page

9 9, in response to the investigator's question, you said: "Later on I saw

10 --" the last sentence. It's the last sentence on page 9. "Later on I

11 saw that I had more -- several cuts on my neck and right hand. I don't

12 know whether I was grazed by bullets or rocks."

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And a few minutes ago when answering the Prosecutor's question,

15 you said that you were hit in the left foot. Is that right?

16 A. Just a moment, please.

17 Q. And then two more times, in addition, to the left foot. That's

18 what you said a few minutes ago when you were answering the Prosecutor's

19 questions.

20 A. May I explain? All this happened during the night, and it was

21 probably fragmentation bullets that were used, and I still have, on the

22 right side and in my right foot and in my right arm, some leftover pieces.

23 Q. With all due respect, Witness, could you please explain to the

24 Judges something which is difficult to explain in any other way but one,

25 because in this statement you gave to the investigative judge, the one

Page 30691

1 that you looked at a few minutes ago, please look at page 3 towards the

2 end: "I was wounded by Chetnik gunfire coming from an automatic rifle, in

3 the lower right arm and in the right side of the chest." How is it

4 possible for one and the same thing to be described in different ways,

5 especially wounds that you can show people? How can you explain that in

6 so many different ways? Could you just explain that to the Judges,

7 please.

8 A. Just a moment, please. Well, you expect me to say the very same

9 thing in every statement, the very same sentence, but it's just worded a

10 bit differently. So I was hit by this fragmentation ammunition. I assume

11 that that's what it was. Later on, the investigators saw the X-rays, too,

12 and -- but there was this burst of gunfire, yes, I know that.

13 Fragmentation bullets too. After the X-rays were taken, I realised that

14 it was fragmentation ammunition.

15 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I think that these

16 three statements that were all translated into English should be admitted

17 into evidence, because they may be of relevance when you are assessing

18 this witness's statement. I have copies of all three.

19 JUDGE MAY: In the presence of the witness, and he should hear

20 this, that I am not assisted by accounts which it's said may vary. It's

21 easy to show long after the very traumatic events that a witness may or

22 may not have given this account in one statement and may have given a

23 slightly different account in another. I don't think it's been disputed

24 that this witness has been injured. We've seen the photographs. I think

25 in fairness to him, that should be said.

Page 30692

1 But we'll certainly admit these statements for what it's worth.

2 Yes.

3 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, just two words,

4 please. What I did and what I tried to present here before you for the

5 witness to explain is something I'm doing because it's the way things have

6 to be done, and I think that these are things that have to be assessed

7 very carefully. Of course I have all due respect for what people have

8 experienced, and it is hard for us to ask someone to explain everything

9 the same way every time, but this basic piece of information, where

10 someone was actually wounded, this basic tragic event cannot be recounted

11 in different ways on different occasions.

12 JUDGE ROBINSON: Unless you're really suggesting that the incident

13 did not take place and that this gentleman was not hit at all, then what

14 really is the purpose of that line of cross-examination? Whether he was

15 hit in the stomach or in the chest or on the right or the left. If you're

16 really saying the incident didn't take place and that he is lying, then

17 you should put that squarely to him.

18 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour Judge Robinson, I

19 really should not have to explain this a countless number of times. It

20 will certainly be for you to assess.

21 JUDGE MAY: I'm going to interrupt you, Mr. Tapuskovic, because

22 you are answering the Judge, and you're not dealing with the matter with

23 what I suggest is the thought that it requires.

24 Now, I don't think we'll continue this argument. You've heard

25 what we've said about it. We are not assisted by this line of

Page 30693

1 questioning. Not even Mr. Milosevic has said that this witness wasn't

2 injured. I don't really think it's right for you to suggest it.

3 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] I do not wish to enter a polemic

4 with regard to this. If every witness who comes here has to be accepted a

5 priori, then I believe that my cross-examination did not serve any purpose

6 whatsoever, and then in future I will allow Mr. Kay to do this every time.

7 I will have to proceed in this manner if I see that there are

8 contradictory elements in different statements. I am not doing anything

9 but indicating that there are contradictions in different statements given

10 by the same witness. If I cannot do that, as someone who has been doing

11 that all his life, then in the future I'm going to avoid doing this

12 altogether.

13 JUDGE ROBINSON: I have been assisted by your cross-examination in

14 the past. Just now I wasn't, and I've explained why.

15 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

16 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honour, the three statements will be Court

17 Exhibit 26, please.

18 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Waespi, anything you want to ask?

19 MR. WAESPI: Just one point in relation to these exhibits: They

20 should be under seal.

21 JUDGE MAY: Yes, of course.

22 MR. WAESPI: And I only have one question to the witness.

23 Re-examined by Mr. Waespi:

24 Q. You were challenged by Mr. Milosevic about the words of the person

25 at Sandici meadow who said, "We are from Serbia." Can you tell us how

Page 30694

1 sure you are that these were his words?

2 A. Were they the words of that soldier? Is that what you mean? Is

3 that your question?

4 Q. You told us that it was a soldier who told you that -- and I quote

5 you, "We are from Serbia." And you were questioned about that by

6 Mr. Milosevic. Can you tell us whether these were really his words or

7 not?

8 A. Yes. The soldier really did say, and I'm quoting, "We are from

9 Serbia." And then he went on saying where we'd go and what we were

10 supposed to do, that we would not get dinner, things like that, but I

11 remember that very well. Those were his words.

12 MR. WAESPI: That's all, Mr. President.

13 Questioned by the Court:

14 JUDGE ROBINSON: Witness B-1401, you were 17 years old when this

15 incident took place. You lost your father. I'd like to ask you, how have

16 you managed in the past eight years? What are you doing now? Was your

17 education affected? Just tell us how you have survived in the past eight

18 years.

19 Private session, please.

20 [Private session]

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 30695

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 [Open session]

9 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session.

10 JUDGE MAY: Witness B-1401, thank you for coming to the Tribunal

11 to give this evidence. I'm sorry that, not surprisingly, it's an

12 upsetting experience, but it's very important, of course, that this

13 evidence is given, as it has been. So we're grateful to you for coming.

14 You are, of course, free to go now, but would you just wait a moment until

15 the blinds are drawn.

16 Let the witness go. Thank you.

17 [The witness withdrew]

18 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Another matter has arisen. We've got a query

19 for the record about the dates of these latest statements for the record.

20 It may be the registrar could deal with it.

21 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour. Court Exhibit 25 will be under

22 seal for the record. Tab 1 is the statement dated the 31st of July, 1995.

23 Tab 2 is the statement dated the 19th of July, 1995. And tab 3, Your

24 Honours, is the statement dated the 24th of July, 1995, all under seal.

25 JUDGE KWON: Court Exhibit 26.

Page 30696

1 THE REGISTRAR: Excuse me, Your Honours. Court Exhibit 26.

2 JUDGE MAY: The next issue concerns the admission of the book and

3 the like in relation to General Clark, Exhibit 617. We make it plain that

4 it is not admitted, nor is the extract tab 4 admitted. The book tab 3,,

5 the extract and the chart, none of those are admitted.

6 We have been asked to admit The New Yorker article to which

7 reference was made, as a Defence Exhibit. It has been handed in but we

8 must examine it first to decide whether to admit it or not.

9 MR. GROOME: Yes, Your Honour.

10 JUDGE MAY: Thank you. We'll deal with that after the

11 adjournment. I don't know if you've seen this, you have this article, Mr.

12 Nice.

13 MR. NICE: We do. Have we received it?

14 MR. GROOME: We have, Your Honour.

15 JUDGE MAY: It's in fact the whole article. So we'll have to

16 think about that. You may have some views about it.

17 [Trial Chamber confers]

18 JUDGE MAY: Apparently some would wish to exhibit this document,

19 but perhaps you can assist what the Prosecution view about that.

20 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, the portion I believe that it's being

21 admitted for is the comment by Mr. General Hugh Shelton. Clearly, it's

22 extrinsic evidence going to the credibility of a witness; that is, it's

23 going a little bit beyond what is normally accepted as proof. That quote

24 was put, that passage was put to the witness, he dealt with it, and to

25 introduce additional evidence so remotely related to the witness's

Page 30697

1 credibility, the Prosecution would submit is not warranted. It's based

2 upon information that we have that the context of General Hugh Shelton's

3 comments also would be relevant if the Chamber was to give -- admit that

4 and give it serious consideration and we would want to put that before

5 you, but again it becomes further and further more remote from the issues

6 that this Chamber must face in this trial.

7 JUDGE MAY: The only part which he was asked about was Shelton's

8 -- or General Shelton's comment, I should say. On the second page, I can

9 see that. But the article seems to be a very much more wide-ranging

10 article about the witness. It seems to go very much further than anything

11 else.

12 Yes. What is being suggested to my right, if I might say so, is

13 to admit that portion, and I certainly would think that would be right.

14 It's a comment that we've heard and we have admitted other evidence in

15 response.

16 MR. GROOME: Yes, Your Honour.

17 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Well, we'll admit the section, the paragraph

18 perhaps, concerning retired General Shelton. I will mark it here for the

19 registrar.

20 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, Defence Exhibit 223.

21 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, by the Chamber's decision of the 23rd of

22 November, 2003, transcripts and related exhibits of seven witnesses who

23 testified in previous cases before the Tribunal in relation to events in

24 Sanski Most were admitted without cross-examination. The order was

25 conditional on the Prosecution submitting redacted transcripts of these

Page 30698

1 witnesses' testimony which excluded passages referring to the JNA. The

2 redacted transcripts were submitted on the 1st of December, 2003 and the

3 Prosecution at this time would like to formally tender the 92 bis packages

4 of the witnesses to the Court.

5 The first package the Prosecution would like to tender has to do

6 with the witness Radzif Begic. It is not a protected witness but was

7 referred to as B-1042 in the Prosecution's submissions, and this is a

8 binder of seven tabbed exhibits and none are required to be under seal.

9 JUDGE MAY: We'll give this the next number.

10 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, 622.

11 MR. GROOME: The next witness, Your Honour, is B-1044. The

12 Prosecution is tendering a binder of eight tabbed exhibits and is

13 requesting that the seal that was extended to tabs 1, 2, 3, 4, 7, and 8 be

14 continued in this trial.

15 THE REGISTRAR: 623, Your Honours, partially under seal.

16 MR. GROOME: With respect to witness --

17 JUDGE MAY: Sorry to interrupt, but these are all Sanski Most,

18 aren't they?

19 MR. GROOME: Yes, Your Honour. With respect to Witness B-1088,

20 this is a binder of three tabbed exhibits. The Prosecution request it all

21 be placed under seal.

22 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, 624 under seal.

23 MR. GROOME: With respect to the next witness, the witness's name

24 is Sakib Mujic. It was not a protected witness but was referred to as

25 B-1377. In Prosecution's submissions, this binder of three exhibits, all

Page 30699

1 may be tendered publicly.

2 THE REGISTRAR: 625, Your Honour.

3 MR. GROOME: The next witness is B-1611. This binder of six

4 tabbed exhibits, the Prosecution request that they all be tendered under

5 seal.

6 THE REGISTRAR: 626 under seal.

7 MR. GROOME: The next witness is Besim Islamcevic. This witness

8 is not a protected witness and all the six tabbed exhibits may be tendered

9 publicly.


11 MR. GROOME: The final Sanski Most witness is Witness B-1684.

12 There's a binder of three exhibits. The Prosecution requests that tabs 1

13 and 3 be tendered under seal.

14 THE REGISTRAR: 628 partially under seal.

15 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, in addition, following this Trial

16 Chamber's decision of the 9th of December, 2003, in which it granted

17 admission of the statements of three witnesses pursuant to Rule 92 bis

18 (C), we would ask to tender the following exhibits publicly: The

19 statement of Ivan Rastija. These exhibits, Your Honour, the Prosecution

20 are tendering as three separate exhibits.

21 THE REGISTRAR: So the exhibit for Ivan Rastija is 629.

22 MR. GROOME: The next is the statement of Bosko Brkic.

23 THE REGISTRAR: 630, Your Honour.

24 MR. GROOME: And finally the statement of Stana Albert.

25 THE REGISTRAR: 631, Your Honours.

Page 30700


2 MR. NICE: A few matters, if I may. First: Version 7 of the

3 witness schedule. Could I distribute that straight away. It's as

4 up-to-date as can be. We will have to reschedule the two witnesses we

5 weren't able to take this week. The first two weeks in the New Year

6 seemingly forecast correctly that we start on the 13th. Those first two

7 weeks are, I think, pretty certain although there may be time freed up if

8 applications for witnesses to be taken without cross-examination are

9 granted. The last three weeks which have -- will obviously require

10 adjustment depending on how long earlier witnesses take and whether

11 there's slippage of the kind that's happened to a degree in the last month

12 or so. You will see that there are still some witnesses underneath the

13 table marked as witnesses to be scheduled. We will return to that issue

14 in due course at the beginning the year, but I hope this is a helpful

15 document, planning forward.

16 The next document for distribution comes in two forms, one for

17 everybody and one ex parte. It sets out what we -- what efforts we've

18 made to get a constitutional law expert for the Kosovo section of the

19 case. Can I distribute, then, the first version which is for everybody,

20 for everybody; certainly for the accused and the amicus.

21 That's exactly the document that the accused has, but here's an ex

22 parte version which simply adds in the names for Your Honours because we

23 haven't been able to check with the experts whether they are content for

24 their names to be known to all. And you'll see that the list comes in

25 three parts. First you have those contacted experts from the former

Page 30701

1 Yugoslavia between the period September to December 2003. Then the third

2 sheet is contacted legal experts outside the former Yugoslavia, and then

3 there's the last sheet with the earlier contacts which led nowhere in

4 early -- in early 2002.

5 The dilemma we face is that pretty nearly all our efforts are

6 falling on not barren but unyielding ground. The reasons given are set

7 out in the Comments column. You've heard me say earlier that there

8 appeared to be or there was expressed fear. These are the publicly given

9 reasons, and you can see what they are.

10 We are -- at the moment we have one person of possible potential,

11 but this is outside the former Yugoslavia, and in an issue of this

12 particular kind, we suspect that there may be a significant dividend to

13 the Chamber in having someone from the former Yugoslavia to deal with this

14 issue.

15 You will see on that second sheet contacted legal experts outside

16 the former Yugoslavia, number 5 has expressed interest, but nevertheless

17 he's not from the former Yugoslavia.

18 Your Honour, we've tried, with the leave of the Court, to add to

19 the pressure of our own invitation by saying that the Court might be

20 prepared to summon a witness and that didn't work either. Not summon but

21 to call on a witness to come and help. We weren't suggesting a formal

22 summons. And we are left in the position of having to keep trying or,

23 alternatively - and I say this with some diffidence - alternatively to

24 invite the Chamber to consider or to reconsider the position about the

25 earlier expert. The question here is whether anyone we can get from

Page 30702

1 outside the former Yugoslavia will bring a quality or dividend to his

2 evidence that would exceed what would be in the judgement of the Trial

3 Chamber lost by allowing the matter to be dealt with by the witness whose

4 report has already been served and who was indeed an expert on this

5 particular area.

6 Your Honour, I don't ask for anything other than you take note of

7 our position at the moment and perhaps have a chance to think about it,

8 and we'll return to it in the New Year. But we are aware, particularly in

9 light of the observations by His Honour Judge Robinson, that this is not

10 something that we can do without, probably, if the Chamber is to make a

11 proper and full judgement on all relevant matters. This is an important

12 issue, and we understand that.

13 It may also be that it's, to be quite candid, an issue of some

14 controversial nature in the former Yugoslavia. It's not necessarily an

15 easy legal issue, maybe it's an issue that has different approaches

16 depending on where you come from, and that may be one of the reasons it's

17 been hard for us to find someone to deal with it.

18 JUDGE MAY: You will continue your efforts to find someone.

19 MR. NICE: Oh, yes.

20 JUDGE MAY: Even from outside.

21 MR. NICE: From outside. We've got to make a decision as to

22 whether to invite number 5 on the second list to start preparing a report,

23 but we do have pretty serious reservations about getting a non-former

24 Yugoslav native to deal with this issue.

25 JUDGE MAY: I know time is going against us, but we'll just very

Page 30703

1 briefly deal with this. I'm not sure that I follow that approach.

2 [Trial Chamber confers]

3 JUDGE MAY: We can tell you now that we're not minded to change

4 our minds about this.

5 MR. NICE: No, no.

6 JUDGE MAY: So that line of inquiry, if I put it to you, is cut

7 off. We should never cut anything off totally, but that is our view. But

8 we would be interested, if I could put it this way, in somebody who is

9 independent and from outside, if you would pursue that.

10 MR. NICE: We'll pursue number 5 on this too.

11 JUDGE MAY: Yes, if you would, time being, of course, of the

12 essence.

13 MR. NICE: Yes, absolutely. And you'll see that we've made

14 extraordinary efforts and it's been a very large problem.

15 JUDGE MAY: Yes.

16 MR. NICE: Couple of other things. I know we've only literally

17 got a minute left.

18 Fill-box documents of the kind we've provided periodically are in

19 the process of development, not least as development that's going to be

20 compatible with the CaseMap software that we know some of the Chamber is

21 enthusiastic to use. We've intended to provide an updated version for

22 everyone at this point of the year. I'm not sure that that's practical or

23 desirable. We're intending to provide, at their request, the amicus with

24 the presentation version of the Croatian fill-box document in whatever

25 shape it is because that's the area of evidence they are working on, I

Page 30704

1 understand, at the moment. We will be responsive to any other requests

2 but otherwise would hope to be able to provide a running version of the

3 fill-box documents in about the middle of January for all three

4 indictments, if that's, I hope, helpful.

5 There will be no further Rule 68 report. It was originally

6 expected that we'd be filing a report now because we would have concluded

7 our evidence now, but unless anybody presses to us to the contrary, we'll

8 leave the final 68 report until the end of the case, the end of the

9 Prosecution case.

10 Annotated intercepts in the way -- annotated in the way that the

11 Chamber required are in a state of development. We have various options.

12 One would be to wait until the Croatian intercepts are introduced if and

13 when the witness has been called to deal with it and present a

14 comprehensive schedule. The alternative would be to present the present

15 intercepts, annotated as to their significance, by about the middle of

16 January.

17 JUDGE MAY: I would be inclined to do the latter.

18 MR. NICE: Very well, that will be done. And they will be

19 gathered together -- they will be presented to you in a way that you can

20 sort them electronically in various ways - you can either have them

21 chronologically or by subject heading - so that rather than having to work

22 through 200 and more intercepts, trying to identify which ones are to be

23 admitted on grounds of relevance -- or not to be excluded on grounds of

24 relevance, then having to say well, haven't we had one of those two pages

25 back, you'll be able to group them in ways that we hope will make your

Page 30705

1 task easier.

2 Mentioning that brings us to the topic of analysis of these

3 documents. You will see on the witness schedule we've moved the possible

4 witness Tromp down below the line for the time being so that she's not on

5 the schedule. It's going to be, of course, our decision ultimately what

6 we do, but we will be assisted -- well, what we apply for, because

7 Ms. Tromp, at the moment, has been rejected by the Chamber, but if the

8 Chamber is at any time able to help us with whether it would be assisted

9 by an analyst or whether it would rather have the matter, all the matter

10 of argument, perhaps a view it will be better able to take when it's seen

11 the schedule, that will assist us, and assist us in our use of the

12 remaining time.

13 You've already had the exhibit list broken down so as to know

14 exactly how many exhibits there are. It's something that you wanted.

15 That's been provided. We've promised that we will provide a running list

16 of exhibits to be produced, the residual exhibits to be produced through

17 the investigator O'Donnell so as not to burden the Chamber, the accused

18 and the amicus with a huge quantity of material without forecast that it's

19 coming. The work on identifying the exhibits we will produce and those

20 which we will discard is well under way, I understand from Mr. Groome, and

21 we should be in a position to provide you with some working material for

22 that last substantial exercise of evidence production at the beginning of

23 the New Year.

24 Your Honour, there's one other point of some significance.

25 CaseMap software, in other Chambers where it's being used by the Chamber

Page 30706

1 and by the parties, there has already, I think, been the practice

2 developing of identifying the issues by which the material can be sorted

3 on a collective basis. I don't mean a collective basis in the sense that

4 everybody puts their heads together, but the parties are directed, I

5 think, to identify the issues for review by the Chamber and the other

6 parties. That was something we planned to do right at the beginning, you

7 may remember, or possibly His Honour Judge Kwon may remember because I

8 think that CaseMap is something that he may be more familiar with.

9 We hope to have our own proposed list of CaseMap issues by which

10 material may be sorted very soon, and if we can present it to you at some

11 stage, perhaps even before we sit in January, in writing, for

12 contributions as to how the list might be amended, we will do so.

13 I don't know if that's helpful and I don't know if the amicus will

14 find that helpful as well or the accused and his associates. The accused,

15 of course, is always invited, or his associates are invited by us through

16 the Chamber to contribute to these exercises. We have to say we think it

17 would help him if he could identify any other issues that we've missed by

18 which he would like this material to be sorted, but it's ultimately up to

19 him.

20 Those are the only administrative matters I have to make. With

21 your indulgence, I'd say one other thing comprising two parts and without

22 having given you notice that I was going to say this, but I can't help but

23 observe that Mr. Abtahi's last day in this court was, I think, yesterday in

24 this Chamber and I have to record that he's been a wonderful professional

25 companion, not only in this case but in the previous case where he was

Page 30707

1 working for Your Honours, and I should also inform you that Ms. Wee, who

2 is in court today, is returning to Australia, and anybody who has seen the

3 case managers, of which she is one of three, do their work, know what an

4 enormous contribution they make quietly and with very great industry to

5 the work of this Tribunal.

6 I regret the fact that we shall lose both of those people and wish

7 them well.

8 JUDGE MAY: I'm sure those final remarks will be gratefully

9 received and indeed deserved fully.

10 We will then adjourn until -- I shall be reminded of the date in

11 January. Is it the 12th?

12 JUDGE KWON: 13th. Tuesday.

13 JUDGE MAY: Tuesday the 13th of January. We will adjourn until

14 then.

15 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.51 p.m.,

16 to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 13th day of

17 January, 2004, at 9.00 a.m.