Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 36366

1 Tuesday, 22 February 2005

2 [Open session]

3 [The witness entered court]

4 [The accused entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 9.05 a.m.

6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Nice, to continue your cross-examination.

7 And we want to move as quickly as possible. The Chamber will be

8 considering the whole question of time, use of time in relation to this

9 case, and we'll be saying something about that shortly.

10 MR. NICE: Your Honour, I've already made my position clear on

11 this witness and generally.


13 [Witness answered through interpreter]

14 Cross-examined by Mr. Nice: [Continued]

15 Q. Mr. Jovanovic, as foreign minister for five years and permanent

16 representative at the United Nations, my suggestion to you is you know

17 full well the responsibility that this accused has for events that

18 happened in Croatia and in Bosnia but that you haven't told us the full

19 truth. Do you understand? It's my suggestion to you.

20 A. I understand what you're saying, but at the same time, I would

21 like to say that your claim is all wrong. Mr. Milosevic had very limited

22 abilities to influence the development of events, both in Croatia and in

23 Bosnia, and a number of facts I mentioned point in that direction. One of

24 the facts being that he was among the first to insist that peace forces be

25 brought to Croatia. He also accepted immediately all five peace

Page 36367

1 proposals, and he was the key figure in the acceptance of the Dayton Peace

2 Accords.

3 Q. Before I move on to matters of substance I suggest that you've

4 completely misled us in your observations about the desire to have all

5 Serbs living in one area eventually, and that it is as clear as can be

6 from all the documents that I've provided to you - and we'll look at a few

7 of them, but not very many - it was as clear as can be that that was the

8 underlying objective of everyone on both sides of the Drina. Correct or

9 incorrect?

10 A. Mr. Nice, that's incorrect. What is correct is that the Serbs

11 across the Drina River, both in Bosnia and Herzegovina and Croatia,

12 insisted upon their constitutional right to self-determination, which was

13 equal for all constituent nations in Yugoslavia. That constituent right

14 of theirs was guaranteed both by the constitutions of Croatia and

15 Bosnia-Herzegovina.

16 Exercising that right did not mean that they just wanted to annex

17 their state to Serbia but that they had a choice to remain in the state

18 that existed until that time. We supported their right just as we

19 supported the rights that were available to other peoples living in Bosnia

20 and Herzegovina, in Croatia and in Slovenia.

21 Q. Your suggestion, finally, of the matters I'm going to pick out,

22 your suggestion that you didn't know of the level of support given by

23 Serbia for the Krajina and also for the Serbs in Bosnia is simply absurd,

24 I will suggest to you. A person in your position had to know the

25 percentage and part of Serbia's income going to these interests, and you

Page 36368

1 haven't told us the truth about that.

2 A. Mr. Nice, you are drawing conclusions too quickly, and those

3 conclusions go against the facts. Let me reiterate that, in addition to

4 supporting the rights of the Serbs across the Drina, both in Croatia and

5 in Bosnia-Herzegovina, their right to self-determination, we supported

6 them financially and materially in order to ensure their continued

7 existence. We never concealed that fact. And it is true that certain

8 financial means of Yugoslavia were sent to those former republics so as to

9 ensure that those people would not starve to death.

10 Q. Are you aware of what Mladic said at the 50th session of the RS

11 Assembly in April 1995 about the percentage of support that he'd received

12 over the previous years from Belgrade? Yes or no.

13 A. I'm not aware of that.

14 Q. Were you aware of what the accused himself said when he was

15 arrested about the support he had provided for weapons and ammunitions and

16 other needs of the army of the Republika Srpska constituting a state

17 secret? That's what he said and was made publicly known. Are you aware

18 of that?

19 A. I read the statement given by Mr. Milosevic when he was in prison

20 in Belgrade, the statement relating to the financial assistance given to

21 Bosnia and Herzegovina.

22 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... did that come as a complete

23 surprise to you, foreign minister for five years, permanent representative

24 for five years, and were you at one stage also a Deputy Prime Minister?

25 A. For me it was quite a surprise, because I knew that we provided

Page 36369

1 material support, but I didn't know about the details. I wasn't involved

2 in any other discussions regarding that.

3 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... direct evidence here from

4 Mr. Babic about direct funding provided at his request to this accused.

5 Were you entirely unaware of that? Is that what you're telling us?

6 A. I've already said to you that I was not involved in any

7 discussions concerning military support and military issues. I didn't

8 know any details about the material support that was provided to Serbs

9 across the Drina River.

10 Q. My suggestion to you is that it's simply unacceptable and

11 unrealistic --

12 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Nice, just a matter of the record. Direct

13 funding provided to this accused was provided by this accused?

14 MR. NICE: Yes.

15 Q. My suggestion to you is your answer is simply and completely

16 unrealistic. Let me remind you of a few facts: In the course of your

17 duties, Serbia had four different Prime Ministers, the federal republic

18 had three different Prime Ministers, there were four other foreign

19 ministers, just to name some of the office holders. So as people were

20 turning over, you remained a constant figure. Now, if things were being

21 kept from government ministers and representatives at the UN, who was

22 doing it; one of these other Prime Ministers, one of these other foreign

23 ministers? Who was doing it? Who was keeping it from you?

24 A. I don't know what they had to keep from me, but in every

25 government there is a division of tasks, and every minister is in charge

Page 36370

1 of his responsibilities. Within my domain, I had to deal with the

2 disintegration of Yugoslavia. I had to protect the reputation of the name

3 of Yugoslavia in the world.

4 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... anyone, can you, who would

5 have kept this information from you?

6 A. I did not have an impression that anything is being concealed from

7 me. I did not have much time --

8 Q. What you're telling us is that everything that was done was

9 correct and above board and proper for one state to do in respect of the

10 affairs of neighbouring territories, therefore, there would be no need to

11 keep anything from you.

12 A. I've already stated what I know, and what I know is not something

13 that Yugoslavia or Serbia can be blamed for.

14 Q. Very well. The truth, Mr. Jovanovic, is this: That this accused,

15 who didn't have a platform of his own, or a philosophy, rose to power in

16 answer to the needs of others, the Serb intellectuals and probably also

17 the Kosovo Serbs. True or false in your analysis?

18 A. Not true, because you're neglecting the fact that the Serb people

19 to a great extent were dissatisfied with the status they had within the

20 Socialist Federative Republic of Yugoslavia. It was constantly kept under

21 control by the leadership of Croatia and Slovenia, and Josip Broz Tito

22 constantly put in offices people who were obedient to him. Therefore, the

23 Serbian people felt oppressed, and it is not a great surprise that

24 Mr. Milosevic in the first free elections was elected by a great majority

25 of votes as the first Serbian President.

Page 36371

1 Q. And once in office, and you shared offices -- you shared office or

2 you had office for a long period of time, once in office, those of you

3 there realised that, to stay in office, the accused needed to serve the

4 interests of the constituencies that had supported him; nationalists,

5 Kosovo Serbs, and he did everything that was necessary to stay in office;

6 correct?

7 A. This is an opinion that originated from our former western

8 republics which wanted to portray Mr. Milosevic as a Serb nationalist. To

9 my knowledge, he was never a Serb nationalist because he acknowledged

10 equal rights to all peoples living in the former Yugoslavia.

11 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... you all knew that he had to

12 serve the interests of the nationalists to stay in office, and he did

13 whatever was necessary in support of the Bosnian Serbs and the Croatian

14 Serbs to achieve that end; correct?

15 A. No, not correct. Entirely incorrect. You have absolutely

16 accepted the thesis of the former secessionists, Tudjman and Kucan, who

17 launched that thesis in order to conceal their own secession which could

18 not have been recognised had there been not this attack against Serbian

19 leadership in Yugoslavia.

20 MR. NICE: Mr. Nort's assistance, very rapidly, tab 8 of the

21 defendant's documents on the overhead projector, the report of 30th of May

22 over which some time was spent. If we just look, please, at this. First

23 of all put it on the overhead projector for ease of reference. Page 3. I

24 beg your pardon. Page 2, please, Mr. Nort.

25 The overhead projector, please, technical booth. And page 3,

Page 36372

1 please, for the usher. Third page. Yes.

2 This report which we looked at included references in paragraph 8

3 to General Nedeljko Boskovic having conducted discussions with Bosnia and

4 Herzegovina Presidency, and the suggestion is that he was unable, I think,

5 to control Mladic. In fact, Boskovic did succeed in controlling Mladic on

6 one occasion and bragged about it, didn't he?

7 A. It is possible, but I'm telling you I was not kept abreast of

8 these military developments at all. I learned this from the report to the

9 Secretary-General of the UN.

10 Q. Paragraph 9. "Given the doubts that now exist about the ability

11 of the authorities in Belgrade to influence General Mladic ..." Then a

12 few lines down, just to remind the Court, "While it is my hope that the

13 shelling of the city will not be resumed, it is also clear that the

14 emergence of General Mladic and the forces under his command as

15 independent actors apparently beyond the control of JNA..."

16 And then over the page, please, Mr. Nort, to paragraph 13: "The

17 anomalous position of General Mladic and the forces under his command, who

18 are subject neither to the authority of Belgrade nor to that of the

19 government of Bosnia ..."

20 Now, at the time of this report the JNA was just on the process of

21 disintegrating and the VRS was just in the process of being formed;

22 correct?

23 A. The army of Republika Srpska, as I understood, based on this

24 report and other sources, was created by the Serbs in Bosnia and

25 Herzegovina who were in the JNA forces and deployed to Bosnia and

Page 36373

1 Herzegovina located in Bosnia-Herzegovina at that time.

2 Q. At the changeover or the change of forces from being JNA to

3 becoming in large part VRS, this document reflects some uncertainty as to

4 the ability of either the JNA, as it makes clear, or Belgrade itself to

5 influence him, but it's only expressing uncertainty, isn't it?

6 A. As far as I understood it, the JNA had great difficulties in

7 withdrawing from Bosnia and Herzegovina their formations which had

8 soldiers from Serbia and Montenegro in it because those soldiers were --

9 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... short, this document is

10 expressing uncertainty about the ability at that stage, and that's all.

11 And this is the changeover stage, expressing uncertainty about the ability

12 to control Mladic.

13 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Nice, where in the document do the -- does

14 the document cite that as the basis of the --

15 MR. NICE: Your Honour, paragraph 9 says "... doubts about the

16 ability ..."

17 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, but your thesis is that this was due to the

18 changeover and you need to have a factual basis for that in the document

19 itself if you're putting it to the witness.

20 MR. NICE: It's a question of time. Paragraph 5: "The bulk of

21 the JNA personnel who were deployed in Bosnia-Herzegovina were citizens of

22 that republic and were not therefore covered by the Belgrade authority's

23 decision of 4 May to withdraw the JNA from Bosnia-Herzegovina. Most of

24 them appear to have joined the army of the so-called 'Serbian Republic of

25 Bosnia and Herzegovina.'"

Page 36374

1 It goes on to deal with the statistics on all that.

2 Q. I'm asking the witness: It's right, isn't it, this was at the

3 time of the establishment of that army, that new army, and the changeover

4 of authority, and all that this document is expressing is doubts about the

5 ability of the JNA or Belgrade to control him, correct?

6 A. The doubts are no proof at all. Anybody can have doubts. The JNA

7 did have great difficulties in ensuring that they withdrew their forces

8 from Bosnia and Herzegovina safely. The army of Alija Izetbegovic

9 obstructed them in that endeavour. There were many victims in

10 Dobrovoljacka street and Tuzla and so on. Therefore, the withdrawal of

11 the JNA from Bosnia-Herzegovina was obstructed on purpose by Alija

12 Izetbegovic in order to use it in their campaign against Serbia and

13 Yugoslavia.

14 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... move on. You can just help

15 us with this: We know, and we're going to look at it very briefly, that

16 immediately following this report there was a further Resolution of the

17 Security Council, effectively condemning that the Serbs -- Security

18 Council Resolutions are based on the totality of information coming to

19 various members who are party to the Resolutions; correct?

20 A. I don't know what Resolution you have in mind. There was a

21 Resolution where that was condemned and withdrawal was requested, but

22 there was also a report of the Secretary-General confirming that the units

23 of the JNA had withdrawn from the barracks from which withdrawal was

24 obstructed by Alija Izetbegovic. As far as I know, the Presidency, on the

25 5th of June, officially informed the last soldier of the JNA had

Page 36375

1 withdrawn.

2 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... procedural one which you as a

3 permanent representative know, Resolutions are made on the totality of

4 information coming to those engaged in drafting and approving the

5 Resolution; correct?

6 A. I don't know whether that is correct or not. Rather, I know that

7 based on that information, they adopted certain documents. I don't know

8 whether that information was complete, whether they also took into account

9 information coming from Belgrade and Yugoslavia in general.

10 Q. The first of the three topics I said I would speak to you about,

11 namely the authority of the accused, I have only time for one other

12 question this morning, and it's this: You told us about the development

13 of the Ministry of Defence and the Ministry of Foreign Affairs in Serbia.

14 Both those ministries, set up under the 1990 act, I think, were abolished

15 in 1993 while the third ministry established, the Ministry for Serbs

16 Overseas, continued in effect. The Ministry of Defence and the Ministry

17 of Foreign Affairs, Foreign Ministry, were abolished in 1993 because by

18 then the accused had sufficient and adequate control over the FRY as not

19 to need such ministries for Serbia. Would that be correct?

20 A. It is correct that they were abolished, but the explanation you

21 provided is incorrect, because in the meantime, the former Yugoslavia was

22 reconstituted and the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia was created.

23 Therefore, one year was needed in order for the organs to establish mutual

24 links and relations, and when that was done it was decided those two

25 ministries should be abolished because there was no purpose in their

Page 36376

1 further existence.

2 Q. You understand the Prosecution's position on this, don't you, Mr.

3 Jovanovic: There was in fact never a need for a Foreign Ministry for the

4 Republic of Serbia nor a need for a Ministry of Defence in a country that

5 claims it has no army. Those ministries were set up for a practical and

6 -- for a practical purpose in 1990, and by 1993 the accused could get

7 everything he wanted through the FRY. That is the reality, isn't it?

8 A. No, that is not the reality, because in 1990, or in the former

9 Yugoslavia, the state was in a very difficult situation. We didn't know

10 how things were going to develop. Therefore, that constitution in 1990,

11 as a measure of precaution, decided to establish these two ministries, and

12 the Ministry of Defence existed practically only on paper.

13 Q. Third topic that I was going to discuss to you, the prevailing

14 ambition of all of you to achieve a state where all the Serbs could live

15 together. There is one existing telephone intercept transcript -- no, I

16 beg your pardon. I'm looking at the wrong document. My mistake.

17 Can you look at this document, please. It's a new document, it's

18 been referred to before, it comes from a book of documents. It's the

19 declaration concerning the conditions for recognition of new states.

20 Dated the 16th of December. If the usher would be good enough to put the

21 second page on -- there it is. 16th of December, 1991, where the European

22 Community, and we can look at the foot of that page, inviting all Yugoslav

23 republics to state by the 23rd of December whether they wish to be

24 recognised as independent. Do you remember this declaration and indeed

25 this document?

Page 36377

1 A. Certainly. And I replied to this declaration. I spoke about that

2 on the first day I gave testimony.

3 Q. What this -- what this document did, what this invitation did was

4 to render forever obsolete the Belgrade initiative which sought the

5 inclusion of Bosnia because Bosnia was bound to accept the invitation and

6 apply for independence. It heralded the new departure of the third

7 Yugoslavia which itself failed in the following year and it gave rise to

8 the inevitability of war if the accused and those he represented were to

9 have their way; correct?

10 A. Your approach is entirely wrong. It is prejudicial and selective.

11 You're basically supporting the policy of European Community secessionist

12 republics. The European Community supported from the beginning the

13 secessionist policy which led to all the problems that ensued later. The

14 Belgrade initiative wanted to continue the struggle for preserving the

15 former Yugoslavia in which everybody lived together in prosperity. If a

16 -- if an appeal was sent to Macedonia and Bosnia and Herzegovina, it was

17 done precisely in order to reconstitute the new state and to turn it into

18 a stable state where everybody would be guaranteed equality.

19 Unfortunately, this initiative was not successful because it was

20 undermined from elsewhere and because these republics were encouraged to

21 proceed with their secession. Previously, it had already been decided to

22 inflict a deadly blow upon Yugoslavia and to render it obsolete with the

23 stroke of a pen. This was a crime against humanity and peace.

24 Q. I see. May tab 5 be produced, please. You're saying, are you,

25 that the -- no, never mind.

Page 36378












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 36379

1 May tab 5 be produced.



4 Q. Tab 8, please, next, from the Prosecution proposed exhibits.

5 This, Mr. Jovanovic, is quite an extensive intercepted telephone

6 conversation between yourself involving Karadzic and Koljevic. It's

7 already been produced, you've had an opportunity to look at it, and I see

8 I think you took the documents away with you over the weekend and I'm glad

9 you did so.

10 Can I just look at two passages, please, Mr. Nort. In the English

11 version at page 5, and I'm afraid I haven't checked -- it's already an

12 exhibit. I haven't checked the parallel for page 5. I don't know if --

13 it's my mistake for not having that in hand. At page 5 -- page 5 has you

14 saying in your conversation with Karadzic the only thing that is not

15 mentioned here -- you were talking at this time - this is February of 1992

16 - is the unchangedness of borders, but you have no borders yet

17 established. Now, have you found that passage? It will be about page 6

18 or 7.

19 A. I have read this. I've read it over the weekend.

20 Q. Very well, then.

21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Robinson.

22 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Milosevic.

23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I see this on the transcript of the

24 conversation. It's on page 3 of the Serbian text. The last line on page

25 3, but --

Page 36380

1 MR. NICE: [Previous translation continues] ...

2 Q. Have you got that on page 3? You've read this in any event over

3 the weekend. This makes it quite clear, doesn't it, that you were

4 determined there should be no changing of the then-borders created in

5 Bosnia. Would that be right?

6 A. No, it wouldn't be right. If you read the entire conversation,

7 and you should look at it as a whole and not extract a sentence out of

8 context, this had to do with the preparations for the delegation of Bosnia

9 and Herzegovina, for negotiations with Ambassador Cutileiro in order to

10 establish a cantonal Bosnia. Mr. Karadzic wanted to check some of his

11 thoughts and clarify some concepts because he wasn't clear about some

12 legal concepts. I said here something that's correct, and that is that

13 Bosnia and Herzegovina were yet to be constituted as an independent state

14 on the basis of a cantonal order, and this process was under way, and they

15 were to negotiate and reach a joint conclusion. I did not say that there

16 would be no change of borders with Bosnia and Herzegovina.

17 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Nice, what is before us is not what you are

18 talking about.

19 MR. NICE: I'm so sorry if it isn't. That's my mistake for not

20 checking. But in any event, Your Honours, because of the length of the

21 document, because the witness has now read it and because I had to ask the

22 interpretation of the document to be a matter for the Chamber in due

23 course, and I put my case, if the usher would be good enough to put page 6

24 on it, it picks up at page 6 and goes on to page 7, the passage I'm

25 referring to him. The only thing that is not mentioned here is

Page 36381

1 unchangedness of the borders. "You have no borders yet established..."

2 and it's that passage that follows that I was referring the witness to.

3 But, Your Honour, may I finish with this document in this way:

4 Q. The cantonal approach of this, which is the Cutileiro plan, also

5 found at our tab 25, was appealing to you and to the Serb leadership

6 because it did indeed have ethnic borders. Isn't that correct?

7 A. It was acceptable for the entire Conference on Yugoslavia, and all

8 the participants, including Mr. Izetbegovic. Later he withdrew from this

9 position, and he was persuaded to do so by America.

10 Q. My case on that particular -- or my proposition on that particular

11 intercept in mind, can we look briefly at tab 25, an existing exhibit,

12 Exhibit 810, and to remind you of --

13 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Nice, does that last one have an exhibit

14 number?

15 MR. NICE: Sorry, it's an existing exhibit.

16 JUDGE BONOMY: Do you have the number?

17 MR. NICE: I certainly do. It is 613, tab 243.

18 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

19 MR. NICE:

20 Q. And again, it's a document we've looked at before but not with

21 you, Mr. Jovanovic. It's a Federal Ministry of Foreign Affairs document.

22 You have seen it, you've gone through it over the weekend, I have no

23 doubt, and without taking time on it, because it's available to the Court,

24 the last paragraph that comes from your Ministry of Foreign Affairs, says

25 this -- second page, please, Mr. Nort, last paragraph: "Value of the

Page 36382

1 Cutileiro's Plan rested with that the International Community already at

2 that time showed its readiness to legalise and verify internationally and

3 legally the borders of Serbian territories in BiH."

4 Now, these were ethnical borders and this was the value to you,

5 wasn't it?

6 A. Ethnical borders also exist in the Dayton Accord, and that has

7 been accepted by the whole world. It was the only way to calm down

8 Bosnia-Herzegovina and prevent it from rushing into war.

9 Q. I'm dealing with things chronologically, trying to enable the

10 Court to have a chronological picture. This is the Cutileiro plan.

11 You're writing about it after the event in 1994 but it's a 1992 event.

12 And at that stage the attraction of this plan, and you've gone on about

13 how you say every peace plan was accepted, the actual attraction of this

14 plan was its ethnical borders which were going to be recognised

15 internationally; correct?

16 A. In all the other plans the internal ethnic borders were

17 recognised. This was an expression of the right to self-determination of

18 the three constituent peoples in Bosnia and Herzegovina. I see nothing

19 bad or terrible about it. That's why it was accepted by the international

20 community.

21 Q. The next document is tab 12, which is the stenographic record of

22 the Council for Harmonisation that met on the 11th of August. Just while

23 it's coming up, to remind the Court, the Council for Harmonisation, wider

24 than the SDC, with representations from the RS and the RSK.

25 Again you will have gone through this over the weekend so we can

Page 36383

1 deal with it all very swiftly, but at page 23 in the English --

2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Robinson.

3 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic, yes.

4 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Nice's question contains a

5 substantive error. He can see that in the stenogram. This Council for

6 Harmonisation was drawn up by members of the council established by the

7 then president of Yugoslavia, Dobrica Cosic. The members of the council

8 are listed, and it can clearly be seen that the representatives of the RS

9 and the RSK were not members of that council, and they were invited by the

10 chairman to participate. Therefore, there were no representatives outside

11 the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia in this council, but --

12 MR. NICE: [Previous translation continues] ... cut into my time.

13 I have no time to afford to give to the accused, I'm afraid.

14 JUDGE ROBINSON: What he's saying is you have made a

15 misrepresentation.

16 MR. NICE: It's wider than the SDC.

17 JUDGE ROBINSON: There was no representation from the RS and RSK.

18 MR. NICE: If the composition is not the representation, he can

19 deal with it in re-examination, but I'm grateful for the intervention and

20 if I may deal with it in a question, it's in this way:

21 Q. This is for a council -- Perhaps Mr. Nort would put the first

22 page of the document on the overhead projector, since the accused raises

23 it. As translated this embodies the Council for Coordination of points of

24 view on state policy. Incidentally, you can see it was actually held in

25 Dobanovci. I asked you about that, you didn't recall it; never mind.

Page 36384

1 Coordination of whose points of view, Mr. Jovanovic? Whose points

2 of view were to be coordinated? If it wasn't the RS and the RSK who were

3 invited along, whose points of view were to be coordinated?

4 A. The points of view of the federal organs and the organs of the

5 republic were to be harmonised with the new president, Milan Panic, who

6 frequently acted very independently without a thorough understanding of

7 the problems and issues involved. In order to protect him from his

8 embarking on facts which were not familiar to him, he was to be

9 familiarised with these issues and conclusions.

10 Q. Was there to be coordination with those coming along, if not as

11 representatives of the council nevertheless coming along on, I think, all

12 the occasions we've looked at from the RS and the RSK, was there to be

13 coordination with them? Was that what it was about?

14 A. These meetings were convened by the president of the Republic of

15 Yugoslavia, Mr. Cosic, and with reference to the representatives of the

16 Serbs from Bosnia and Herzegovina, they were only consultative. They were

17 to be given advice or clarifications with respect to previous meetings;

18 for example, the London conference.

19 Q. Page 23 in the English, please, and 23 at the bottom. I hope it's

20 the same pagination as mine. It's not the same as mine.

21 MR. NICE: Your Honour, I became alert yesterday to the fact that

22 there was a marginal difference of pagination between my pages and -- can

23 I have the document back? Thank you very much. No, top of page 23 it

24 will be.

25 Right. The top of page 23 -- top of page 23, please. Top. Right

Page 36385

1 at the top. Right.

2 Q. We see a passage - this is you speaking - and it says this:

3 "However, I am really afraid that the other side, the opponents' side

4 doesn't want that because it wants clear and clean discontinuity, that

5 psychological second to set in. That's important for them because of

6 their strategic aspirations for the Balkans and because they want to deny

7 us the position of Piedmont, that is the possibility that tomorrow or in

8 ten or fifty years we become a new centre which will bring Yugoslav

9 peoples together."

10 Pausing there, Piedmont is a reference to the province of Italy

11 that occupied a broadly similar position to Serbia at the unification of

12 Italy in the 19th century.

13 It goes on: "That is something that the previous generations have

14 put into our hands. We have no right to throw it away. We may choose not

15 to use it at the time when conditions are unfavourable, but we should

16 still preserve it, because if it were not so important, it would not

17 brother our opponents so much."

18 This, Mr. Jovanovic, is another clear announcement by you of the

19 desirability of leaving the situation so that all Serbs could live in one

20 state, and it was the underlining purpose and it was as plain as could be.

21 A. That's not what was said. What was said was that all the southern

22 Slavs have the right to a common state. This was their dream for

23 centuries, and it was realised in 1918. Unfortunately, the European

24 Community managed to turn it into dust and ashes. If Serbia was Piedmont

25 for the southern Slavs, this a historical fact. This is why

Page 36386

1 Austria-Hungary waged the First World War against Serbia, so as to prevent

2 that. The shedding of large quantities of blood in these unfortunate wars

3 was a pledge that nothing like that would happen again in the future. The

4 noble desire of all the southern Slavs are something that no other

5 southern Slav would give up.

6 MR. NICE: Would the usher please bring me the papers and I'll

7 just have a look for one other short passage from this document, because

8 it may not be the same page number and I can just about afford the time to

9 do it. Thank you very much.

10 Q. You know that, probably from reading the transcript of this trial,

11 that an issue is whether there was equality of approach to the Serbs in

12 Bosnia and Croatia and the Serbs -- and the Kosovo Albanians. You know

13 about that, don't you?

14 A. Yes, I know that. There was not and could not have been a single

15 approach because these were constituent peoples, and this was guaranteed

16 by the constitutions of these peoples in the former Yugoslavia.

17 Q. Very well --

18 A. The Albanians in Kosovo were an ethnic minority.

19 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... let's look at this passage

20 where the accused is speaking in the same meeting. He recognised full

21 well - top of the page, please. That's fine. He recognised, we can see

22 it at the top of the page, the validity or the problem of that argument,

23 because he says this: "I didn't have any reservations with regards to

24 this, but an explanation how to avoid with what arguments that the same

25 right is requested for the Albanians, that is the problem. This is the

Page 36387

1 thorn in our argumentation. We know what our arguments are, we have to

2 see what arguments will be acceptable to them."

3 The inconsistency of approach between Serbs and Kosovo Albanians

4 was always recognised, wasn't it?

5 A. No. In this case, as far as I understand, Mr. Milosevic pointed

6 out that we have a constitution which differentiates between minorities

7 and constituent peoples. However, the international community, or rather,

8 its western part, did not recognise this distinction. It also forcibly

9 demoted the Serbs in Bosnia and in Croatia to the status of minorities.

10 This led to conflicts and ultimately it was recognised that the Serbs in

11 Bosnia and Herzegovina are a constituent people. This was not the case in

12 Croatia where they were reduced to the status of a minority.

13 MR. NICE: Next exhibit, please, is tab 15, which is the shorthand

14 notes for the meeting on the 9th of January. I've got a few rather more

15 references to look at in this one but the page numbering won't be a

16 problem. If the page -- if the usher could have the English, and it's

17 page 25 at the bottom -- beg your pardon, it's page -- page 25, at the

18 bottom of the page. Usher, that's the big page 25, in the middle, not the

19 page on the right-hand side.

20 Q. This is Dobrica -- this is yourself speaking, and it's at the top

21 of the page, Usher, please. Thank you. Top of the page. No, next page,

22 please. It's 25 at the bottom. It's the big page number 25.

23 This is you speaking, and you said this: "We have to make a

24 conclusion from it that the community and conditions do not allow the ages

25 old dream on union of all Serbs in one Serbian country to become true. We

Page 36388

1 have to move in phases towards that goal."

2 Mr. Jovanovic, it couldn't be clearer from all the passages I'm

3 putting to you that this was your underlying intention and it was shared

4 by everyone else. "Move in phases towards that goal." Tell me what that

5 means.

6 A. Your conclusion is not correct. What I said here and repeated

7 later on was that all the Serbs did live in one state, Yugoslavia, and

8 they were expelled from it against their will. The discussion now was

9 about their wish to remain in one state, and I told them that this was no

10 longer realistic and possible. In one of the texts you put to me, I said

11 expressly that the right to self-determination of the Serbs in

12 Bosnia-Herzegovina does not include the right to secession --

13 Q. Very well --

14 A. -- and that's what I said.

15 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... next is page 43 of --

16 A. That was the standpoint I put forward.

17 MR. NICE: Bottom right-hand corner, page 43 of 1167. And middle

18 of the page, of that page. Not that one. It's page 43 of 1167. Further

19 on. No. Page -- sorry. If you look at the bottom right-hand corner,

20 Mr. Nort, you'll see figures 43. Bottom right-hand corner, please.

21 Your Honours will know that these pages have been helpfully

22 compiled so that one can cross refer to the Serbian, but that makes it

23 more difficult for Mr. Nort and I'm sorry about that. No. Page 43 at the

24 bottom right-hand corner, please. Can I have the papers back?

25 Q. This is the accused speaking in this meeting. Couldn't be

Page 36389

1 clearer: "The name of the state is not important," he said, "the essence

2 is important. What matters here is that the ethnical division is fully

3 accepted and that the constitutive people is accepted. These are the two

4 elements that Alija tried to avoid by all means. There could be no

5 unitary state with these two elements."

6 Now, this is dealing with the division of Bosnia along ethnical

7 division, and it was ethnical division that was uppermost in the accused's

8 mind; correct?

9 A. No. This is about the Vance-Owen Plan that the Serbs in Bosnia

10 accepted in principle but they rejected the maps. Mr. Milosevic made an

11 effort to convince them to accept the maps to which they had numerous

12 objections. This was a way of having them accept a rational way of

13 thinking and accept the maps --

14 Q. [Previous translation continues] ...

15 A. -- it was not a plea for ethnic purity.

16 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... bottom right-hand corner.

17 The same figures we've been looking at.

18 Mr. Jovanovic, in my respectful submission, you are denying what

19 is absolutely obvious and you're doing it because you know that this lay

20 behind the support of the Bosnian Serbs and it lay behind the crimes that

21 were committed. And if you look at this, this is Dobrica Cosic talking.

22 Further up the page, please.

23 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Nice, let him answer that.

24 MR. NICE: Certainly.

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think, Mr. Nice, that you are

Page 36390

1 getting involved in your own expectations about the outcome and coming

2 into conflict with the facts. Before the declaration and after that we

3 kept stressing that we had no territorial pretensions, that all we wanted

4 was the freedom and equality of the Serbs in Bosnia and Herzegovina.

5 That's the reason Mr. Milosevic immediately accepted the Cutileiro plan.

6 He said that two or three weeks after that he would recognise Bosnia and

7 Herzegovina. Why was this not done? Why was this plan toppled and Bosnia

8 and Herzegovina led into war?


10 Q. Please look at this passage from Dobrica Cosic presiding over the

11 meeting: "In my opinion, we have to reconcile ourselves and finally

12 agree that the achievement of our main political goal, living in one state

13 or in the federation of states, is the long-term aim which could be

14 achieved only step-by-step or gradually. I think that any other kind of a

15 national and state politics would be an adventure."

16 What does that mean if it doesn't mean what I'm suggesting?

17 A. It means quieting the frustrated leaders of the Bosnian Serbs who

18 were afraid of their own shadows. They were afraid of being tricked by

19 Alija Izetbegovic, and they persistently refused to accept the maps. Both

20 President Cosic and President Milosevic tried to calm their fears and to

21 convince them that what they would gain would guarantee their freedom and

22 equality. This is the rhetoric they used which was not foreign to any

23 real southern Slav because we used to live in a single state and we are

24 all nostalgic and wish that state had continued.

25 Q. Let's see what the accused said about this. Two pages on, please,

Page 36391












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13 English transcripts.













Page 36392

1 Mr. Nort, at page 73, starting at the top of the page, a passage we've

2 looked at before. And Mr. Jovanovic, you will have looked at this. This

3 is the passage where the accused says, and it's at the top of the page:

4 "How can we --" five lines down -- "how to turn the situation which de

5 facto exists --" no, top of the page, please. Yep. Five lines down.

6 "How to turn the situation which de facto exists and which could

7 not be de facto endangered into being de facto and de jure," and he deals

8 with the small labyrinth and says how long it will take to get there.

9 There had been achieved by force what it was now the desire of the accused

10 to turn, by passage of time, by negotiations, into law; correct?

11 A. All this is part of the methodology of quieting the fears of the

12 leaders of the Bosnian Serbs and convincing them to accept the maps.

13 Q. I haven't got time to go into it but let's go over four pages to

14 page 76.

15 MR. NICE: Your Honours, this is a passage I would press the

16 Chamber to read in great detail at some stage, but at page 76, at the

17 bottom right-hand corner, middle of that page, where we see about

18 something called cutting the boat loose. That relates to -- in fact,

19 let's pick it up at the top of the page, please, Usher.

20 Radovan Karadzic deals with, first of all, the assassination the

21 previous day of the Deputy Prime Minister of Bosnia-Herzegovina, saying

22 that they'd punish the man. They never did. It's right, isn't it, they

23 never punished the man who -- Karadzic never punished the man who

24 assassinated Irfan Turalic [phoen], did he? As a matter of fact --

25 A. I don't know. Every murderer has to be tried.

Page 36393

1 Q. We go on, on a new topic, and Karadzic says: "We would act the

2 way we agree, especially if we would be in a situation to endanger the

3 position of the mother country ... We would 'cut our boat loose' ...

4 The accused: "We're not speaking about 'cutting the boat loose.'"

5 Cosic: "Who could sacrifice you? Who is entitled to make a decision to

6 sacrifice the Serbian people in Bosnia and Herzegovina?" Karadzic: "I

7 would like to say we are deluding ourselves by thinking that in a later

8 phase we would be able to trick them." The accused: "They would already

9 be tricked after we get the issue to the later phase. We have already

10 'led them up to the garden path.' That is the matter."

11 Had they been led up the garden path, please? How had they been

12 led up the garden path, Mr. Jovanovic?

13 A. Mr. Nice, this entire text has to be read in its entirety to

14 understand the real meaning of this. The entirety says that the Bosnian

15 leaders, the Serb Bosnian leaders were so terrified that they kept saying

16 things that were not rational, and at this meeting everyone, especially

17 Presidents Cosic and Milosevic, took a great deal of trouble to get them

18 to see reason. If they used words to pacify them, it was only in order to

19 get them to accept the maps. That was the only meaning of all this.

20 Q. Who had been led up the garden path?

21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Robinson.

22 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic.

23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can I know from which page Mr. Nice

24 is quoting? I can't find the passage, or perhaps I misheard the page

25 number. He said page 76.

Page 36394

1 MR. NICE: 76 in the English, and in the Serbian it's page 71.

2 Q. And the people who were led up the garden path were the

3 international community, weren't they, Mr. Jovanovic?

4 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I can't find it in Serbian, no.

5 MR. NICE: [Previous translation continues] ... page 72 in the

6 Serbian.

7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] No, not on page 71.

8 MR. NICE: End of page 72.

9 JUDGE ROBINSON: Do you have it in front of you, Mr. Jovanovic?

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I have the English text in front of

11 me. However, the page is not marked in the English version. I have it

12 somewhere here too.

13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I can't find this expression, to

14 trick.

15 MR. NICE: [Previous translation continues] ...

16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Let me tell you, in Serbian it says

17 that I said that we have already been able to deal with them. I didn't

18 say to trick. I said to deal with them, to better them. This is a

19 substantial difference, because I'm referring to tactics here and to

20 persuasion, as Mr. Jovanovic has explained. To deal with somebody and to

21 trick somebody are two different things.

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that's right.

23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] And then Karadzic says: "Had we

24 realised this on time, then this border -- or we would have been in a

25 different situation. And I responded with a joke, saying this is as

Page 36395

1 though Pero had gone to the police. And only somebody who understands the

2 language truly can understand what this is all about. This is just all

3 excerpted from the context.

4 JUDGE ROBINSON: Can we have the Serbian put on the ELMO so we can

5 have it translated.

6 MR. NICE: Would Your Honour just give me one minute.

7 [Prosecution counsel confer]

8 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Nice may at a later stage have occasion to

9 ask you about this, Mr. Milosevic, depending on the course you take.

10 MR. NICE: Beg your pardon.

11 JUDGE ROBINSON: I said at a later stage in the proceedings you

12 may have an opportunity to put that question to Mr. Milosevic himself,

13 depending on the course he takes.

14 MR. NICE: Yes, certainly. Here it is. On the overhead

15 projector, please, Mr. Nort. Bottom of the page. And if the interpreters

16 please could read out the answer starting the accused.

17 THE INTERPRETER: Slobodan Milosevic: "We have beat them at their

18 game. We have outwitted them if we put the matters to a later phase.

19 What we have here is that we have managed to outwit them. This is what

20 this is all about."

21 MR. NICE: Thank you. Your Honour, I must move on. The time is

22 so --

23 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you.

24 MR. NICE: -- short. If I could have that page back, please,

25 Usher. I'm going to abandoned the rest of my questions on this topic and

Page 36396

1 I'm going to move to the second topic -- I'm going to go to the second

2 topic, crimes and knowledge of crimes. Tab 3, please.

3 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Nice, in that -- I'm sorry to go back to that

4 passage. There was nothing in it about leading them up the garden path,

5 from the translation.

6 MR. NICE: No, not from the translation. The outwitted. If we

7 put the matter, I think it's outwitted them. I'll try and get some detail

8 of the translation --

9 JUDGE ROBINSON: That is a very poor translation then, because

10 that has a specific connotation in English.

11 MR. NICE: I'll try to deal with that in more detail later.

12 Q. Tab 3 is an existing intercept. You've had a chance to look at

13 this, have you, over the weekend, Mr. Jovanovic?

14 A. Yes.

15 MR. NICE: If we look at the English, please, on Exhibit 613, tab

16 101. Two things, remind the Chamber. If the usher would put page 4,

17 looking at the bottom, on the overhead projector. We see a discussion

18 between Karadzic and the accused about the London agreement triggered by

19 discussion with the previous witness, Smilja Avramov.

20 Q. Were you involved in any discussions about going back to the

21 London agreement of 1915 which would have given Serbia so much more

22 territory?

23 A. I don't think that I attended that meeting, if my memory serves me

24 right.

25 Q. [Previous translation continues]... please, Mr. Nort. You're

Page 36397

1 aware of the London agreement and the maps that were discussed in London

2 in 1915, are you?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. And you accept the view that another witness called by the accused

5 has given that to discuss the London agreement maps would constitute

6 embracing the notion of Greater Serbia? Do you agree with that?

7 A. First of all, that was not the notion of Greater Serbia. Rather,

8 an offer of Western allies extended to the Serbs during the war, namely

9 to --

10 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... next question was to discuss

11 those maps. Would it be right that to discuss those maps would be to

12 embrace the notion of a Greater Serbia?

13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Robinson.

14 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic, yes. Mr. Milosevic, yes.

15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I have to say, Mr. Robinson, that

16 this is way too much. Mr. Nice is putting questions as though I discussed

17 the London agreement here, although he can see clearly for himself that I

18 -- that Karadzic said that the meeting ought to be prepared --

19 MR. NICE: [Previous translation continues] ...

20 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic, let Mr. Nice -- put the question

21 again, Mr. Nice.

22 MR. NICE: I'm going to move on, Your Honour, if I may. It's

23 dealt with already in other evidence and another intercept. Page 5,

24 please, Usher.

25 Q. The accused here deals with --

Page 36398

1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] This is being done in a wrong way,

2 Mr. Robinson. This is a manipulative way. Mr. Nice --

3 JUDGE ROBINSON: [Previous translation continues] ... manipulative

4 -- if it is manipulative, we will deal with that. We haven't found it

5 that way.


7 Q. This is the accused speaking, on page 5, halfway down. Karadzic

8 says: "The problem are these idiots." And then expletive. "I see now

9 they are bringing the Presidency into question." The accused says: "If

10 they start that, then disturbances will start down there and they will be

11 gone. We have to likewise secure Herzegovina down there up to Dubrovnik.

12 That's what we should go for. The de facto situation in Yugoslavia is

13 defending its territory."

14 That's a contemporaneous 26th of October, 1991, intercept. You

15 were foreign minister at the time. What you were doing in Dubrovnik,

16 attacking it?

17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Robinson.

18 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Milosevic.

19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] This is probably not an error of

20 Mr. Nice but an error made by somebody who prepared this, because

21 everything is turned upside down here. Where it should be Karadzic, it

22 says Milosevic, and vice versa. So this is one great confusion. It says

23 here Slobodan Milosevic says: "Very well, President, we will certainly

24 get --" and then the person speaks in Ekavian and that's not the dialect I

25 use, and I certainly wouldn't address Karadzic as Mr. President. So this

Page 36399

1 is attributed to the wrong person. What Mr. Karadzic -- what Mr. Nice is

2 reading out are not words uttered by me. So this is turned upside down,

3 and does not reflect the conversation at all.

4 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic, are you saying that the passage

5 attributed to you, which reads in English, "Yes, if they start that then

6 disturbances will start down there and they will be gone," et cetera,

7 that's not something that you said?

8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] That's precisely what I'm saying.

9 This is reflected in a different way in Serbian language, and this is

10 something I didn't utter either. "Yes, and if we do that, then unrest

11 will break out down there. However, we also have to deal with

12 Herzegovina, whereas --"

13 MR. NICE: [Previous translation continues] ...

14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] -- "Dubrovnik --" and then another

15 word in the Ekavian. So these are not my words. This has been put upside

16 down.

17 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. We understand the point. Mr. Nice, if that

18 is so, then I don't see how you can work on this basis.

19 MR. NICE: Your Honour, the swapping of names has been dealt with

20 in the report of Mrs. Tromp. It's before you in the report. I'll deal

21 with it after the break so I can explain exactly but my understanding is

22 that these words are the accused's --

23 JUDGE ROBINSON: The words that I just --

24 MR. NICE: Yes, the words --

25 JUDGE ROBINSON: -- quoted.

Page 36400

1 MR. NICE: The words -- it doesn't matter. Just for the avoidance

2 of any doubt, Mr. Jovanovic -- even if they're not his words he's being

3 seized of information.


5 MR. KAY: I think we need clarification of all this. We're trying

6 to trace the exhibits and how this arose. We think this is an exhibit

7 that came in through Mr. Lilic, and reference we have in the Prosecution

8 exhibit witness list doesn't seem to tie up with the tab that we've got in

9 the Prosecution schedule here. There's plainly an issue over the

10 translation, as the Court will see the question mark next to the reported

11 speech. So whoever translated it had an issue as to who was the

12 appropriate speaker.

13 If my memory serves me correct, Mrs. Tromp was not a witness in

14 the case, in the end, and so any report by her on this issue is an

15 internal matter for Mr. Nice, but in terms of exhibits in the case, I

16 don't think there is any explanation about this and it is an issue that

17 has not been resolved. We're concerned that there seem to be material

18 inaccuracies. I don't know who has translated this document, where it

19 originates from, and whether it has been checked by the translation

20 department in this building.

21 JUDGE BONOMY: Which tab number is it, Mr. Kay?

22 MR. KAY: It's 469, tab 40.

23 JUDGE BONOMY: On the Prosecution's --

24 MR. NICE: Tab 3.

25 JUDGE BONOMY: It's tab 3.

Page 36401

1 MR. KAY: Oh, right. I've got a --

2 JUDGE BONOMY: That's 613 then.

3 MR. KAY: Oh, right.

4 MR. NICE: Your Honours, can I come back to that, because the time

5 that's being taken will take me over the break.

6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Robinson.

7 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Milosevic.

8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] This is tab 3. This is tab 3, which

9 I received within this binder from Mr. Nice. However, please take a look

10 at this. Let me just prove to you that everything has been put upside

11 down. On page 1, it says as though Karadzic said to me, "Tomorrow, here

12 -" meaning in Belgrade - "in Sava centre, there is a large gathering of

13 Montenegrins." And then I reply to that, "Is it really?" as though I

14 didn't know about that.

15 JUDGE KWON: Put the page 1 on the ELMO.

16 THE ACCUSED: [No interpretation]

17 JUDGE KWON: Wait, Mr. Milosevic. Yes.

18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I want to compare that to what comes

19 later. It says here, "Here in Sava centre there is a large gathering of

20 Montenegrins." And then Slobodan Milosevic says --

21 JUDGE KWON: Okay. We'll deal with it later.

22 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Nice will not put any more questions on that.

23 MR. NICE: -- put any more questions --

24 JUDGE ROBINSON: On the basis of that tab. We'll move on.

25 MR. NICE: Tab 4, please. Tab 4 is a new exhibit. It's another

Page 36402

1 of The Hague document exhibits of the kind introduced by the accused when

2 leading this witness. If the usher would lay -- the Chamber therefore has

3 it in its own papers. It's dated the 15th of November of 1991. And if

4 the usher would take us to the third page now.

5 Q. You've told us that there was nothing going on in Dubrovnik. When

6 pressed in November of 1991, Mr. Jovanovic, "both Mr. Milosevic and

7 Foreign Minister Jovanovic stressed that Serbia was not involved in the

8 siege of Dubrovnik in any way. They did, however, defend JNA actions

9 there, claiming that the JNA would deblock Dubrovnik only when mercenaries

10 sheltering there in violation of a 1955 declaration," and so on, had been

11 withdrawn.

12 What was the action of the JNA, please, that you were defending?

13 Was it the attack on Dubrovnik Old Town?

14 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The JNA -- I cannot say that the JNA

16 was at sea and remained there in order to block the city. I suppose that

17 Croatian units were on the ramparts and were shooting from there at the

18 valley belonging to the Serbs in Croatia.

19 Q. [Previous translation continues]... that. What's your evidence

20 for that?

21 A. But they were -- Dubrovnik was declared to be under UNESCO's

22 protection and no armed forces were allowed to be deployed in that city.

23 As far as I know, that was violated and the JNA said that it would deblock

24 the city once Croatia abided by the status of Dubrovnik.

25 Q. What JNA action were you defending, Mr. Jovanovic? That's what I

Page 36403

1 want to know. Because you know that by this time the evidence shows that

2 Dubrovnik had been attacked by the JNA. Now, tell us, what were you

3 defending?

4 A. I did not defend the attack on Dubrovnik. To the contrary. In

5 one of the interviews given to Spiegel, I stated that we did not have any

6 claims to any cities on Croatian coast, including Dubrovnik and any other

7 city. What this refers to is that the status of Dubrovnik was abused and

8 there were armed units there endangering Serbs' positions in

9 Bosnia-Herzegovina and the JNA was at sea and said that it would deblock

10 the city once Croatia withdrew its forces.

11 Q. Please tell us, as the foreign minister, did you then or have you

12 at any time since come to appreciate that Dubrovnik was attacked by the

13 JNA as indeed two trials in this very court have covered? Were you aware

14 of that, Mr. Jovanovic?

15 A. Later on, I learned --

16 Q. [Previous translation continues] ...

17 A. -- including from the trial ---

18 Q. How did you learn about it?

19 A. I learned first at the conference in The Hague, when President

20 Tudjman complained that there had been attacks on Dubrovnik that was

21 denied by the then-representative of the JNA. That's all I knew at the

22 time. There was a claim and a denial.

23 Q. [Previous translation continues] ...

24 A. Later on, I learned something more.

25 Q. I must take the most interesting question I can. Can you help the

Page 36404












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13 English transcripts.













Page 36405

1 Judges, please, looking back, with how it could conceivably be that you,

2 the foreign minister, with such a world famous problem as the alleged

3 attack on Dubrovnik, covered by the world's press, can have been unaware

4 of the fact that the JNA was attacking it? Just explain what happened in

5 government that you could have been kept out of knowledge.

6 A. At the time in Croatia there was a conflict between Croatian

7 forces and the JNA. Croatian forces blocked the JNA barracks, and it was

8 difficult to ensure that they were deblocked without casualties. There

9 were -- there were a number of hot spots in the entire territory of

10 Croatia. Dubrovnik was one of them. We were waiting for a peaceful

11 resolution. We worked on a peaceful resolution. I never followed the

12 developments in Dubrovnik closely.

13 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Jovanovic, the question is a fairly simple

14 one. It is: How could Dubrovnik be attacked by the JNA and you as the

15 foreign minister would not have been aware of that?

16 THE WITNESS: I knew as much as everybody else in Yugoslavia knew.

17 I did not ever receive any special information about what was happening

18 there.

19 MR. NICE:

20 Q. Mr. Jovanovic -- if His Honour is finished?


22 MR. NICE:

23 Q. -- I am going to make it quite clear to you that my suggestion to

24 you is that that answer by you is absolutely ridiculous. To say that you,

25 the foreign minister, one of the only long-time serving associates of this

Page 36406

1 accused for a ten-year period, because this is admittedly at an early

2 part, a trusted associate of this accused, it is ridiculous for you to say

3 you had no more knowledge of the JNA attack on Dubrovnik than the members

4 of the public, and it reflects your need on behalf of this accused to deny

5 the obvious.

6 A. This is your conclusion, Mr. Nice. It may sound absurd, but it is

7 true. I've sworn to say only the truth here, and that's what I did. Now,

8 as to how logical and acceptable it is to somebody else, that's another

9 matter, but this is truth.

10 Q. Let's look at tab 12 --

11 JUDGE KWON: But, Mr. Jovanovic, then can I ask this way: When

12 did you come to know that Dubrovnik was attacked and shelled?

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I cannot say that accurately, but I

14 think it was the first time here, at the conference in The Hague when

15 President Tudjman complained. He was quite angry and spoke in an agitated

16 way. I think that General Kadijevic was there as well, if my memory

17 serves me right. He denied that, and he linked it to the blocking of the

18 barracks throughout Croatia. He asked that that action be ceased and the

19 JNA units be allowed to withdraw in peace without harassment.

20 JUDGE KWON: Could you tell us what you did after you heard the

21 news of shelling Dubrovnik.

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There was nothing else I could do.

23 I simply heard the explanation given by the JNA representative. We never

24 discussed that matter. For me, Dubrovnik was an unknown, although that

25 looks perhaps illogical. I never understood why Dubrovnik would be

Page 36407

1 attacked, therefore, I never justified that.

2 JUDGE KWON: Thank you. Mr. Nice.

3 MR. NICE: May we look briefly at tab 12, the shorthand notes for

4 the Council of Coordination of Points of View on State Policy of the 11th

5 of August, at page 12 on the bottom right-hand corner, Usher, middle of

6 the page.

7 Q. See now this -- that's fine, thank you very much. This is one

8 that you attended in August 1992 with, amongst others, Milo Djukanovic,

9 who was at that time, oscillating as he does between president and Prime

10 Minister, Prime Minister of the Republic of Montenegro, and this is what

11 he had to say, in the middle of the page. You see it at the top of the

12 screen: "I think that we should start from the judgement, if you agree,

13 which has also its continuation in comparison with the judgement given by

14 Mr. Panic, our federal Prime Minister. It is true that we did a lot of

15 bad things during the previous period; a bad picture was created ..."

16 What were the bad things that Mr. Djukanovic of Montenegro was talking

17 about? Because you know that Montenegro was involved in the attacks on

18 that part of Croatia, don't you? What was he talking about? What were

19 these bad things?

20 A. Probably volunteers from Montenegro who went there and behaved

21 rather badly, if I can say so, in moderate terms, and that probably

22 embittered him.

23 Q. Having access to all the top brass of the army, to the presidents

24 and Prime Minister of Montenegro, to this accused, and with the world

25 outcry amongst -- about, amongst other things, Dubrovnik, did you ever ask

Page 36408

1 anybody if they'd attacked Dubrovnik or did you just not bother?

2 A. I asked and was told that we did not attack and that Serbia had

3 nothing to do with that --

4 Q. [Previous translation continues] ...

5 A. -- that was a conflict --

6 Q. Who did you ask?

7 A. I asked President Milosevic, among others, and was given a clear

8 answer that Serbia had nothing to do with it.

9 Q. And was any explanation given for how the world could have been

10 looking at the videos it was on television and seeing these attacks? Was

11 any explanation given for that? Who was it said was firing the guns?

12 A. We didn't go into details. What I know and what was discussed is

13 that the Croats themselves in Dubrovnik, that's what was said and was

14 written, set tyres on fire and that produced a lot of smoke and the

15 international TV crews declared that to be explosions of shells fired by

16 the JNA. I did not go into details, but this is what was presented in the

17 press.

18 Q. Somebody else's fault and the Serbs entirely innocent again; is

19 that right?

20 A. That's not what I said. I simply said about what I had heard and

21 read in the press. I couldn't take it for granted, but I had no other

22 reliable information from other sources and therefore I awaited the day

23 when the full truth would come out.

24 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Jovanovic, could you remind me, please, were

25 you at that time foreign minister of Yugoslavia or of Serbia?

Page 36409

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If this was in October of 1991 - I

2 think that's what we said - then I was the minister of Serbia, until July

3 of 1992.


5 Q. Tab 13, please, the meeting on the 18th of August, 1992. At the

6 bottom, right-hand corner it will be page 18. Now, here we see Milan

7 Panic speaking. He had yet to be dismissed or removed by the accused.

8 Milan Panic: "We are already in that position. The problem is that we've

9 been accused for the war in Bosnia and Herzegovina, that we support the

10 war in Bosnia, and that we left weapons for them to fight; that we support

11 Karadzic financially. We spoke here about the ethnic cleansing."

12 Now, the first thing is everybody understood, didn't they,

13 Mr. Jovanovic, the allegations being made against Serbia and the FRY by

14 the international community; correct?

15 A. Mr. Panic simply conveyed what was said by the part of the

16 international community against Serbia. These are not his claims.

17 Q. No. I accept that. Now let's look at the bottom of the page,

18 please. Having set out the general allegations, he says: "We cannot get

19 rid of it. This afternoon I received the following information - ethnic

20 cleansing has begun: 15.000 Muslims from Sanski Most were given eight

21 hours to leave their homes and make twenty kilometres to Jajce in order to

22 reach the Muslims. This information was received from the United Nations.

23 They asked me and said that I should stop it."

24 You told us a couple of days ago that you reacted against any

25 suggestions of and condemned any ethnic cleansing. Where are we going to

Page 36410

1 find - help us, please - the public condemnation of the ethnic cleansing

2 of Sanski Most by this body or by its leaders?

3 A. I can't say with certainty whether we spoke about this, but the

4 republican government and the federal government in their declarations,

5 statements, frequently condemned ethnic cleansing, urged that there be a

6 cease-fire and that all camps be disbanded if they existed. I don't know

7 whether Sanski Most was mentioned specifically, but in this text and in

8 other texts we saw here, we could see that I always condemned ethnic

9 cleansing and insisted that humanitarian efforts be stepped up, that all

10 camps be disbanded, that there be a cease-fire and end of hostilities, and

11 we appealed to the other side to do the same.

12 Q. My suggestion to you is that when the Chamber looks at this record

13 of the meeting as a whole, and you were there, you will not find surprise,

14 shock, and revulsion at the ethnic cleansing but tolerance of it.

15 A. Not on our side, no.

16 Q. Very well.

17 A. You can't say that.

18 MR. NICE: Your Honours, I hope to finish. I've got a few more

19 things to deal with and I must complete the exercise that took a lot of

20 time on the last occasion of producing the notice documents which are

21 extremely important, not least because they cover the period of the

22 aftermath of Srebrenica. I will ask the accused again, through the Court,

23 whether the balance of those documents which the witness will have had an

24 opportunity to consider simply be admitted en masse. I understand I

25 didn't ask for tab 4 to be admitted and should have done.

Page 36411

1 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, it will be admitted. We will take the break

2 now for 20 minutes.

3 --- Recess taken at 10.33 a.m.

4 --- On resuming at 10.57 a.m.

5 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Nice.

6 MR. NICE: Your Honours, two matters to tidy up. First of all,

7 the intercept transcript at tab 3. The accused is correct. At that

8 particular point, the names should be reversed. In fact, it was covered

9 in -- there's no reason for anybody to know this: It was covered in an

10 electronic filing and a filing, an electronic filing that came to the

11 Court on the 19th of January, 2004, where the particular point the

12 transcript having speakers reversed towards the end was made, and I think

13 the particular speakers were also reversed. So my error to have read it

14 out the way I did. My point would remain the same, whether the knowledge

15 -- or substantially the same, whether the knowledge going to the accused

16 or going from him.

17 The second point to deal with is the challenged translation, of

18 course coming from the CLSS, that led to the phrase "up the garden path."

19 The phrase that was actually used and is, in inverted commas, I believe

20 translates to the effect of saying you take someone across the water and

21 he remains thirsty on the other side. And it may be that it is itself a

22 strong phrase, along the lines of leading up the garden path. So that's

23 that.

24 If I can now turn back to the questions of this witness and go

25 back in time for one purpose only, because I should have -- although I've

Page 36412

1 admitted many things, there's one thing I have to deal with just to put it

2 in context. If we could go to tab 11, please, which is an existing

3 exhibit, just simply to remind the Trial Chamber of the chronology of

4 events when it was concerned about tab 8 of the accused's bundle.

5 Q. It's right, isn't it, Mr. Jovanovic, that this exhibit, tab 11,

6 which you will have had a chance to review -- I beg your pardon.

7 A. Yes, but I don't have it before me right now.

8 Q. The usher will put it on the overhead projector. This is the

9 Security Council Resolution that was made on the day of the report that

10 you've been referring to, and we can see that it reaffirms its

11 Resolutions, it reaffirms its support for the Conference on Yugoslavia.

12 It deplores the fact that the demands have not been complied with, and it

13 goes on to make the recommendations that it does. This led to sanctions.

14 And as I suggested to you earlier on, the reality is that those

15 making this Resolution would be relying on a whole range of sources of

16 information, including the report had it, you say, not been delayed in its

17 delivery, but they in fact have a whole range of information to rely on

18 before making their Resolution; correct?

19 A. I don't know what it is based on, but the report that was delayed

20 in arriving as the Resolution had already been adopted was the basis for

21 this Resolution. Had the report arrived, the Resolution would not have

22 been adopted and sanctions would certainly not have been introduced

23 against Yugoslavia.

24 Q. That is a matter of conjecture, I suggest to you. You suggested

25 to the Chamber that somebody intentionally kept it back. Do you want to

Page 36413

1 name that person for me, please, so I can investigate it?

2 A. According to what I read, this was some Austrian clerk. I don't

3 know what his name was.

4 Q. So an Austrian -- on your understanding, an Austrian clerk took

5 the initiative to hold back a report for political reasons. Is that what

6 you're suggesting? And may we have his name, if you want to make

7 allegations like this.

8 A. I don't know what his name is, but the press said it was some sort

9 of Austrian clerk or official. Whether he did this on his own initiative

10 or pursuant to a suggestion from someone, I can't say. As all this is

11 very unclear, all I can say is that the delay in the report's arrival was

12 intentional.

13 JUDGE ROBINSON: The press in what country, Mr. Jovanovic?

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Austria. An Austrian official.

15 JUDGE ROBINSON: No, no. I asked -- you said the press said that

16 it was an Austrian official, and I was asking the press from what country

17 made that allegation?

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I found this in the Yugoslav press,

19 but they were relying to sources from the foreign press. I don't know

20 what sources. It's a long time ago.

21 MR. NICE:

22 Q. You see, Mr. Jovanovic, the report is completely out of line with

23 all the other Resolutions and reports, I must suggest to you, and of

24 course it's possible sometimes for the Yugoslav interest to persuade some

25 reporting person from an embassy here or there to take a different view,

Page 36414

1 but the vast majority of the reporting was all to the same effect over

2 this period, wasn't it? And that's why the various Resolutions were made.

3 A. I don't understand your question quite well. Generally speaking,

4 yes, but this Resolution depended to a great extent on this report. And

5 had the report been submitted, the sanctions would not have been

6 introduced, at least not at that time.

7 Q. Tab 16, please, which is the council meeting for the 21st of

8 January of 1993. And if the usher would take us straight away to page 30,

9 bottom right-hand corner. Apparently it's the same in the B/C/S.

10 Here we're looking at something that Zivota Panic said. So no

11 doubt about his military authority, could there be -- his knowledge of

12 military matters, could there be, Mr. Jovanovic?

13 A. I think at that time he was the Chief of the General Staff of the

14 Yugoslav army.

15 Q. Okay. Let's see what he had to say. "Next: What should now be

16 done in Bosnia and Herzegovina? As far as I can estimate, Serbs in Bosnia

17 and Herzegovina are losing both the territory and certain important

18 facilities. We should agree here what is to be done regarding this issue.

19 Things happening on the left bank of the Drina River, around Srebrenica,

20 Bajina Basta, Bratunac, et cetera, are very bad, and you should know,

21 Mr. President, that this is a disgrace for the Serbian people. They are

22 running away, leaving everything. The help we are giving in weapons,

23 ammunition, is located in some houses in villages. We could not pull it

24 out. We are preparing to destroy it."

25 How about that?

Page 36415

1 A. Is this a question?

2 Q. Yes. Leaving weapons behind for the Serbs, were you?

3 A. Yes. That's what General Panic said, as can be seen from the

4 text. This is what he knew. I did not have this knowledge. I had the

5 opportunity of hearing it at that time meeting. The meeting was an

6 exchange of opinions about this topic, the topic of preparations for the

7 London conference, if I remember correctly, and different views were

8 expressed. Everyone expressed their own views. He was providing a

9 military view of the situation.

10 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

11 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic, what are you saying?

12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I can't find this. On page 30,

13 somebody else is speaking. It has nothing to do with Panic. And then

14 later on I can see Panic speaking but I can't find the words quoted by

15 Mr. Nice. What page is this, please?

16 I've found it now. I do apologise. It's page 34.

17 MR. NICE: Thank you.

18 Q. And at the end of this page we also see this, if the usher would

19 move the page up a little bit: "People are leaving the territory on the

20 left bank of the Drina River. They are leaving everything and running

21 away. The map most probably caused this. They saw that this was not

22 their territory and wanted to leave the area as soon as possible. That

23 should be explained to them.

24 "I think that somebody should come to Mt. Tara on Saturday. I

25 will go and arrange what we should do and how. We must not lose control

Page 36416

1 over that territory."

2 Mount Tara guards the Drina from the east. This is your general

3 saying "We must not lose that territory," territory in another state. Why

4 was he saying that without your objecting to it? You as the foreign

5 secretary, you should be objecting, saying you can't interfere in somebody

6 else's business. Why didn't you object, Mr. Jovanovic?

7 A. First of all, I think that General Panic was referring to the

8 Serbs in Bosnia, that they were not keeping this under control. Secondly,

9 I did keep saying at that meeting that all hostilities were to cease, that

10 there should be no ethnic cleansing, that refugees should return, and that

11 self-determination did not mean secession. I kept repeating our political

12 standpoint, that we had no pretensions on the territory of the

13 neighbouring republic but that we would support the Serbs in Bosnia in

14 claiming equal rights to the other two ethnic groups in Bosnia. What the

15 general had in mind was that the Serbs in Bosnia were not controlling this

16 territory.

17 Q. Page 34, please. And I'll try and find it for the accused. Page

18 34, middle of the page, the accused speaking. I think it's probably on

19 the accused's page 39, I think.

20 And we just see this sentence halfway down the page: "It suits us

21 very much that they have accepted the principle of demarcation according

22 to the ethnic criteria. We should not 'befog' that principle a lot with

23 some big story on economy ..." And then the matter goes back to the point

24 that they would create some political mixers which would mix all that.

25 The accused's pre-concern or preoccupation Mr. Jovanovic, just

Page 36417












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 36418

1 like everybody else's, was to keep ethnic demarcation lines in order to

2 lay the plan for ultimate union of Serb territory. Isn't this obvious

3 from all these meetings?

4 A. The conclusion is not only not obvious, it's not correct. At the

5 same meeting, I recommended to the Serbs in Bosnia that they should not

6 pay a great deal of attention to the national issue but the economic

7 issue. If they could not survive economically, they would all want to

8 join third countries in order to survive. This is only confirmation. The

9 international representatives had already offered maps divided along

10 ethnic lines. If this was acceptable to the international community, why

11 should it not be acceptable to President Milosevic? There were no plans

12 for unification because we did say that we had no designs on the territory

13 of Bosnia and Herzegovina. President Milosevic confirmed this because

14 this plan is a plan for the future joint state of all the three nations

15 living in Bosnia and Herzegovina.

16 Q. Very rapidly and in a few more documents. First of all, as a

17 matter of fact you've had a chance to review it and I don't need to go

18 into it, Belgrade and Serbs generally were given the greatest possible

19 warning of the views of the world as to what was happening in Bosnia by

20 the interim decision, or however it was described, of the International

21 Court of Justice on the 8th of April, 1993, wasn't it? You've had a

22 chance to look at it. It's at tab 17. I'm not going to take the Court

23 through it again.

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Because that report specified as an interim order prevention of

Page 36419

1 genocide. What was the reaction of your leadership? You were there.

2 What was the reaction of your leadership to such an extraordinarily grave

3 interim order being made against you, to do nothing?

4 A. This was in 1993. It was within the competence of the Federal

5 Ministry of Justice and the judiciary. This was a complaint that Muslim

6 Bosnia sent to the International Court against Yugoslavia, naming

7 Yugoslavia as an aggressor, and these were temporary measures issued by

8 the ICJ which informed the federal organs. I don't know what was done

9 further about this issue, but I know that this case is still pending

10 before that court and has been for the past ten years or so.

11 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... cut across you. We've heard

12 from Mr. Jovic. You know Mr. Jovic. He's explained to us in terms, both

13 in his written statement and in his book, how the plan to develop the VRS

14 as an army and the SPK army came from this accused because he recognised

15 that leaving the JNA would expose Yugoslavia or the FRY to difficulties.

16 Did he -- we've heard that.

17 Did the accused not even raise the possibility of withdrawing

18 support of funds from the Bosnian Serbs when an allegation of the kind

19 made before the International Criminal -- Court of Justice was made?

20 A. These allegations were put forward by the Bosnian Muslim

21 leadership and the court then issued a temporary measure.

22 Q. I must focus you on the question. We've heard --

23 A. I want to answer your question.

24 Q. Well, did the accused raise with his government the possibility of

25 withdrawing funds from the Bosnian Serbs? Yes or no.

Page 36420

1 A. He did this a year later, when very severe measures were

2 introduced and relations broken off. In the meantime, he waged a Titanic

3 struggle with them to get them to accept each of the plans of the Contact

4 Group; the first, second, and then the third plan. He had a lot of

5 problems in convincing them, and from time to time he told them that

6 Yugoslavia would not be a hostage to their irrational policies, and he

7 told them about the aid that was being provided.

8 Q. He carried on financing the offices, as we all know now, through

9 the 30th and 40th personnel centres and carried on with the policy until

10 he was arrested, of paying Mladic. Did he not even discuss stopping the

11 crimes that were being committed, reported and reaching the level of

12 interim orders about genocide from the International Court of Justice, did

13 he not even discuss withdrawing funds?

14 A. In that three-sided civil war, each side had its supporters,

15 financially and otherwise, and they were all to a greater or lesser extent

16 involved in a series of crimes. The fact that attention was being focused

17 on the crimes of only one side and --

18 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... stop you there for a minute.

19 Each side had its supporters, and you knew that you were supporting one

20 side, didn't you?

21 A. Politically, financially, and diplomatically, yes. They were our

22 people.

23 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... militarily through finance,

24 if nothing more.

25 A. I do not know about that part because, as I told you, I knew

Page 36421

1 nothing of military matters.

2 Q. But you know because you --

3 A. That's true.

4 Q. -- referred to crimes by all three sides. You knew that the side

5 you were supporting was committing crimes.

6 A. We constantly condemned ethnic cleansing, the use of violence and

7 the shelling of those towns, and we persistently demanded that they accept

8 a cease-fire and even to declare a unilateral cease-fire. Our resistance

9 to violence was continuous. We did not push Bosnia and Herzegovina into

10 war. Those who pushed Bosnia and Herzegovina into war were those who

11 would not accept Cutileiro's plan.

12 Q. You and all of you working with this accused accepted the crimes

13 that you knew were being committed and that you were funding, because you

14 were working according to the accused's plan, that if you waited long

15 enough, it would all fall in, by law or by negotiation, in the same way as

16 it had fallen in by fighting and by killing in 1992; correct? And that's

17 what this case is about, you see. Is that correct?

18 A. No, it's not correct. You have to take a broader view. Serbia

19 received the largest number of refugees from Bosnia and Herzegovina; about

20 half a million. These people were not fleeing from something good. They

21 were fleeing from something bad. The crimes that were committed were not

22 just against Muslims, it was against the Serbs as well. We condemned all

23 crimes and the forcible takeover of territory by all sides. We kept

24 stressing that and we said that in our talks with the Serbs from Bosnia

25 and Herzegovina. You cannot accuse us of supporting crime. We

Page 36422

1 financially supported our people there, but we did not support crimes.

2 MR. NICE: Your Honours, I must move very rapidly, if I can. Can

3 I just summarise the position to the witness because he's had a chance to

4 look at some documents.

5 Q. It's right, isn't it, that you've been able to review, over the

6 weekend, I hope, documents to which I will not be taking you, but the

7 Security Council Resolution 819 of the 16th of April, 1993; the Resolution

8 820 of the 17th of April, 1993? Just yes or no, you've reviewed those?

9 A. Yes. Yes, I have.

10 Q. Incidentally, the Council of Harmonisation records for the 20th of

11 April, we've only been provided by the authorities with something called a

12 minute, a short document. We have not been provided by the authorities

13 with the long version of the document. Can you point us to -- they say

14 that they -- the authorities say that they don't have it. Can you point

15 us to where we might find such a full stenographically recorded version of

16 what is only provided by a minute for that meeting?

17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] What tab is that, Mr. Robinson?

18 MR. NICE: The tab is --


20 JUDGE KWON: 19.


22 MR. NICE:

23 Q. Can you point us to where you --

24 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please, Mr. Nice.

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think you're addressing the wrong

Page 36423

1 side, because I never had any of these documents at my disposal, and I

2 have forgotten many things.


4 Q. Very well.

5 A. You have helped jog my memory. However, in the document you

6 mention I cannot find anything worthy of special attention.

7 Q. That's because you've only been provided with the minute. [B/C/S

8 on English channel]

9 Let me make it plain -- [B/C/S on English channel]

10 We looked last week tabs 20 to 26, which covered Srebrenica and

11 Sarajevo. We looked last week at tab 27, Resolution 819, at tab 28, which

12 concerned Sarajevo, and then coming to 1995, we looked at tabs 30 to 34

13 which covered Tuzla, hostages, Sarajevo, and Srebrenica, to tab 35,

14 Resolution 1004 which covered Srebrenica and hostages, to tabs 36 to 41

15 which covered Srebrenica and Zepa. Keeping your eye and mind on Zepa, can

16 we look now at tab 42.

17 MR. NICE: And, Your Honours, I would ask the remaining tabs, if

18 the accused will consent, tabs 42 to 47, which are the same kind as the

19 bulk of the exhibits we were looking at on the last occasion, tab 48 which

20 is Resolution of the Security Council 1010, tabs 49 to 50, which are

21 further communications of the same type, tab 51 which is a report, and

22 then tabs 53, 54, and 57 which are further reports, might all be admitted

23 as documents containing allegations and information. Ms. Dicklich reminds

24 me that tab 48 is already in, but apart -- that's my application. Because

25 otherwise I shall have to go through, however swiftly, the exercise with

Page 36424

1 this witness.

2 [Trial Chamber confers]

3 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic, will you agree to those tabs going

4 in?

5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I do not agree, Mr. Robinson,

6 because I think that the tabs can go in if a witness is asked a question

7 about the document and provides an answer. Otherwise, it's completely

8 unacceptable. Otherwise, you can introduce as many things as you like

9 into the record without anyone understanding what the documents are about.

10 MR. NICE: I'll see if Mr. Jovanovic will help us.

11 Q. Mr. Jovanovic, have you, over the weekend, had a chance to look at

12 those tabs I've referred to, being severally communications of a certain

13 type we dealt with last week and otherwise documents of the United

14 Nations?

15 A. Yes. These are well-known documents adopted by the Security

16 Council.

17 Q. And the other documents, the documents that provided information

18 to you, having reviewed them, are they indeed all documents that did

19 provide information to you of the same kind that we were looking at last

20 week?

21 A. If the question is addressed to me --

22 Q. Yes.

23 A. -- I can confirm that these documents, up to the time I was there,

24 which was mid-August 1995, were documents I knew about. The documents

25 after that time are something I was not familiar with.

Page 36425

1 MR. NICE: Then, Your Honour, I shall have to deal with it. He

2 says mid-1995, so these --

3 JUDGE BONOMY: August --

4 MR. NICE: That's fine. In which case then we are all right, I

5 think. Perhaps they can all go in, with Your Honours' leave.

6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Let us make it clear, we're talking about tabs

7 42, 43, 44, 45, 46, 47, 49, 50, 51 --

8 JUDGE KWON: No, not 51.


10 MR. NICE: Yes, 50 is one as well.

11 JUDGE ROBINSON: 50 and 51, 53, 54, 57.

12 MR. NICE: Yes. Those are the documents.

13 JUDGE ROBINSON: Well, those may be admitted.

14 MR. NICE: Your Honours, I'm very grateful.

15 Q. And the position is this, Mr. Jovanovic: In the period of time

16 July and into August of 1995, you received repeated information from

17 different locations expressing fear for Srebrenica, fear for Zepa;

18 correct?

19 A. Yes. There's a lot of that in the documents.

20 Q. Zepa was saveable. Why didn't the accused or you or the

21 government do anything to save Zepa once Srebrenica had fallen?

22 A. I personally had no ability to influence this, but Serbia and the

23 Federal Republic of Yugoslavia had for a year had no contacts with the

24 political leadership of Republika Srpska. Perhaps there was some lesser

25 channels --

Page 36426

1 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... then? If they had no contact

2 with them, why did they still pay for their officers? It was your

3 government. And people died as a result in large numbers of a funded

4 army. Why did you not withdraw payment?

5 A. The Croatian army in Bosnia was also financed by the Republic of

6 Croatia and nobody noticed anything. On the other hand, we kept drawing

7 attention publicly to the fact that protected areas were not to be taken,

8 not only Srebrenica and Zepa but others as well, Sarajevo and the others.

9 That was our standpoint that we kept repeating. We constantly kept saying

10 this should not be done. The facts indicate that the influence of the

11 Federal Republic of Yugoslavia on the leadership in the Republika Srpska

12 was not sufficient to prevent this.

13 MR. KAY: Can I just go back to the tabs while we're reasonably

14 proximate to it.


16 MR. KAY: The witness's answer was that the documents until the

17 middle of August 1995 were documents he had been aware of. Tab 51 is

18 dated the 30th of August, 1995; 53, 9th of November, 1995; 54, 27th of

19 November, 1995; and 57 is the 21st of December, 1995. Was it the Bench's

20 intention to rule that in although it was outside the parameters of the

21 witness's answer?

22 MR. NICE: Your Honour --

23 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Kay, I notice the witness said these are

24 well-known documents adopted by the Security Council. Line 14, page 54.

25 MR. KAY: I understand there are objections to postman, which we

Page 36427

1 have had as an issue raised in the context of this witness's evidence, and

2 I'm afraid that's exactly what the Bench would be doing with this witness

3 as he is being used by the Prosecution. It would be the same issue, to

4 the same effect, and that is my concern.

5 MR. NICE: Your Honours, can I make just one obvious point?

6 [Trial Chamber confers]

7 JUDGE ROBINSON: He did say he was aware of them as well-known

8 public documents.

9 MR. KAY: It may be that he was aware of them, but what that goes

10 to is a completely different matter. I think it needs some care looking

11 at. He wasn't actually accepting them in his evidence, if one goes back

12 into it.

13 MR. NICE: Can I help, to save time? The witness was the

14 representative of Yugoslavia in New York at the United Nations. If he's

15 not aware of these documents, I have no idea who is supposed to be.

16 MR. KAY: It's the same issue with the white book, though, with

17 respect.

18 JUDGE ROBINSON: Not really the same.

19 MR. KAY: That is a well-known document. The volumes of the white

20 book is a well-known public document in Yugoslavia that he received and

21 passed into the UN system. There is no difference here between what the

22 Prosecution is trying to achieve and what the accused was attempting to

23 achieve.

24 Now, there should not be any greater credibility given to the

25 documents of one party at the expense of the other.

Page 36428

1 JUDGE ROBINSON: So your submission is that all the documents

2 dated after -- is it August 1995?

3 MR. KAY: Yes, if there is to be consistency on the matter.

4 [Trial Chamber confers]

5 JUDGE ROBINSON: I think the white book is a different matter.

6 The accused was attempting to introduce it as evidence of the truth of

7 those allegations of mistreatment and crimes, and we held that it could

8 not be treated in that way at this time. We marked it for identity. We

9 needed evidence as to how it was compiled.

10 Here the witness is saying that he was aware of these as they were

11 public documents. I mean, he was, after all, a senior figure in his

12 government, working at the United Nations.

13 MR. KAY: He wasn't at the UN, though, for those particular tabs.

14 Those are outside his stewardship. He was until mid-August 1995, and

15 those four tabs I've pointed out --

16 JUDGE BONOMY: My understanding, Mr. Kay, is that he goes to the

17 United Nations in 1995 until 2000, and what you've got is moving in

18 mid-August from being a domestic minister to the United Nations where he

19 then represented Serbia and -- the Republic of Yugoslavia at that stage.

20 MR. KAY: Would it be helpful if the foundation was set? The

21 trouble is in doing things so quickly in such a large scale, one has to

22 keep track of what is actually going in. I don't know if that commends

23 itself to the Bench.

24 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. I'll ask Mr. Nice to just lay a foundation

25 for those last four tabs.

Page 36429


2 Q. Mr. Jovanovic, when did you arrive at the United Nations as the

3 representative?

4 A. I arrived there, if I remember well, on the 17th of September,

5 1995, or perhaps the 18th.

6 Q. The documents we've been looking at, we've been speaking about,

7 are reports to the Secretary-General focused on Yugoslavia dated the 30th

8 of August, the 2nd of November, the 9th of November, the 27th of November.

9 I may have included one that's already in. Are those documents you had a

10 duty to read in your capacity as the representative of your country?

11 A. I naturally did have that duty. However, that was after the fact.

12 As I wasn't present at the mission of Yugoslavia in New York, I had to

13 read it subsequently because it arrived on the 30th of August.

14 Q. Let's just have a look, shall we, since the point is taken by my

15 learned friend Mr. Kay, at tab 55. It was produced last time. And we'll

16 lay on the overhead projector the first page in which the second line of

17 the second paragraph -- next page, please. Sorry. The next page.

18 Second line of the second paragraph reads: "In view of the

19 shortcomings of the report of the Secretary-General of the 27th of

20 November, 1995..."

21 Now, we know you said last week that somebody else wrote this

22 report for you, but you seem to have indicated that you've read the

23 report. Had you?

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, Mr. President, I would

25 like to reiterate that I challenged the claim that this document was sent

Page 36430












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 36431

1 to the right address. It was sent erroneously to the president of the

2 Security Council. It was intended for the Russian representative.


4 Q. [Previous translation continues] ...

5 A. Please. Please. I would like to confirm this once again.

6 Mr. Nice, last time you challenged my credibility, and you did it with an

7 emphasis, and I would like to protest against that. I would like the

8 Court to ask, through the Ministry of Foreign Affairs, my associates to

9 provide statements, namely Dragan Zupanjevac, Dragana Filipovic, and Petar

10 Tasic [phoen]. These are my associates who can confirm that my

11 instructions were not to send it to the president of the Security Council

12 but to the head of the Russian mission, and afterwards everybody confirmed

13 that they were precisely my instructions that were misunderstood by my

14 deputy. Therefore, this should not be seen as a document reflecting my

15 position or the position of Yugoslavia.

16 Q. Are you going to repeat what you said last time, that you barely

17 read it and that somebody else wrote it for you, or are you going to

18 accept that this is your text?

19 A. Once again, let me reiterate. As the session of the Security

20 Council was to be held and it was to be devoted to Srebrenica, the head of

21 the Russian mission asked us whether we had information. As I didn't have

22 any information, I officially asked for the information. I was provided

23 nothing. I pressed for it. And it wasn't until just prior to the

24 beginning of the Security Council session that I received information from

25 the Government of Republika Srpska. I personally did not agree with what

Page 36432

1 was stated there. It didn't seem trustworthy. So I asked my deputy to go

2 through it and to see whether there was anything there that could be sent

3 to the head of the Russian mission. I was convinced it was sent to the

4 Russian mission and not to the president of the Security Council. As I

5 said, it was erroneously sent to the Security Council and I regret that

6 deeply, and I would ask the Honourable Chamber to verify this with the

7 people whose names I just gave to you.

8 Q. I simply haven't the time to deal with much of what you're saying

9 but let's just go to the point I was asking you to look at. "In view of

10 the shortcomings of the report ... of the 27th of November 1995 and

11 insufficient evidence on the alleged violations of humanitarian law and

12 human rights, particularly with regard to the areas of Republika Srpska,

13 we are very much concerned that members of the Security Council will not

14 be in a position to fully ascertain the situation ..." Do you accept

15 authorship or responsibility for those lines? Yes or no.

16 A. I do not accept --

17 Q. Okay, very well.

18 A. -- because this was written by my deputy.

19 Q. Let's go back to 54, then, and let's look at it since you insist

20 on taking that line. 54 is the report referred to of the 27th of

21 November, 1995. And we'll look at it on the overhead projector. And

22 we'll put page 2 on. And we'll look at paragraph 5, Mr. Jovanovic.

23 You're very concerned about whose -- who sent what and to whom,

24 but now please look at paragraph 5. This report records "Thousands of

25 people still remain unaccounted for." Paragraph 6 says, line three: "...

Page 36433

1 a total of 8.000 tracing requests." Paragraph 7 says, "... ICRC has

2 limited access to the prisoners." Paragraph 8 says, "Based on all the

3 available information, it would appear that at least 3.000 but less than

4 8.000 people from Srebrenica are still missing."

5 Well, we know that the RS has admitted to 7.000 deaths. Tell us,

6 did you as representative of your country at the United Nations read this

7 report dealing with, as we now know, 7.000 killings? Did you?

8 A. I read this, naturally. However, I did not have confirmation that

9 it had indeed been done to 7.000 people. I was shocked by the figure.

10 But as I said before, things need to be confirmed from several sources.

11 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... turns out to be true. Let's

12 go back to your letter since - I beg your pardon, the letter you

13 inadvertently signed, at tab 55, shall we. Can we put that on the

14 overhead projector again. Don't let me beat about the bush,

15 Mr. Jovanovic: You're trying to mislead this court and you're not telling

16 the truth.

17 You were prepared to pen --

18 A. I protest. I apologise, Mr. Nice, but you have no right to call

19 me a liar. I've sworn to tell the truth and what I'm saying is an

20 absolute truth. I would ask the Court to verify this information with the

21 persons whose name I gave to you and they will be able to confirm whether

22 I'm telling the truth or not.

23 Q. Page 3, please. Page 3, please. Let's just look at something.

24 The end of this paragraph, on the very page where you put your signature,

25 has Miroslav Deronjic. Now, you've heard of him, haven't you? Haven't

Page 36434

1 you?

2 A. I heard of him. I think that he was tried here or something like

3 that. But prior to that, no, I never heard of him.

4 Q. Who was informed that they did not find any substantial evidence

5 to confirm the alleged crimes on mass graves. That was the sort of

6 material you were relying on in your statement against the body of the

7 detailed report by the United Nations. And if we go back through the

8 pieces of information that I've dealt with very briefly, you'd already

9 learnt about the aerial photographs produced at the United Nations by

10 Madeleine Albright, hadn't you?

11 A. I will say once again: The information that was erroneously sent

12 to the Security Council was neither my position or the position of

13 Yugoslav government. That was information provided by the Government of

14 Republika Srpska, and it's stated very clearly at the very beginning of

15 that unfortunate report. And let me reiterate once again: It was sent to

16 that address erroneously.

17 On the other hand, what was shown by Madam Albright I cannot

18 comment on that. I wasn't present at the Security Council at the time but

19 I have to admit that she was quite strict when it came to Bosnian Serbs

20 and Serbs in general and that her words could not always be relied upon.

21 Q. So is this the position --

22 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Nice, just a minute. Since the witness has

23 on two occasions asked the Court to verify what he has said today, it

24 should be made clear that that is not a matter for the Court but for the

25 accused.

Page 36435


2 Q. Almost my last question, Mr. Jovanovic, is this, in light of your

3 persisting in the answers you're giving: On this occasion the words of

4 the RS were good enough for your government. Is that because the acts of

5 the RS were the acts of your government?

6 A. This is a ludicrous conclusion. This document which was sent

7 erroneously clearly indicates that that was information provided by the

8 government of Republika Srpska. It doesn't state anywhere that it was

9 provided by the government of Yugoslavia. So you cannot draw those

10 conclusions.

11 Q. One last matter for detail that I ought to cover with this witness

12 before he goes.

13 In the course of your evidence, Mr. Jovanovic, you said in an

14 exchange with this accused that a letter was -- on the 15th of February

15 and in the version I've got it's page 25 and 26 of the then-transcript.

16 You said of -- you were asked about a letter sent to Alija Izetbegovic,

17 and you answered a question about that, and you said you informed

18 Mr. Izetbegovic that you'd sent a similar letter to General Mladic with

19 similar contents. So you were speaking of two letters sent by the accused

20 to Mladic and Izetbegovic, and those letters were dated, you will

21 remember, on or about the 1st of August of 1995.

22 Now, I don't have a version that I can lay before you at the

23 moment of those letters, but just confirm a couple of things for us. They

24 were both in English, weren't they?

25 A. I'm not sure. However, I didn't write them. Those letters were

Page 36436

1 written by President Milosevic. Now, whether they were in English or in

2 Serbian, I don't know. Why would they be in English? Maybe they were in

3 English.

4 Q. Precisely. I'm going to suggest to you that perhaps you do know.

5 But by the 1st of August, with the flow of information coming to this

6 accused, he needed to set up a smokescreen of innocence and to detach

7 himself from Mladic and from what had happened in Srebrenica, and that's

8 why he wrote letters designed to present himself in a falsely favourable

9 light in English. Isn't that right?

10 A. This is your conclusion. You keep trying to sell a claim that has

11 no value.

12 Mr. Milosevic already for a year had no contact with their

13 political leadership. Therefore, he could not influence them and create a

14 smokescreen. He had already condemned their policy and set up very strict

15 border controls and invited international observers to monitor that.

16 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Milosevic.

17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] This is a blatant untruth. I did

18 not send a letter to Mr. Izetbegovic in English, and I don't know how come

19 Mr. Nice is putting that to the witness. Why would I be writing to Alija

20 Izetbegovic in English?

21 JUDGE ROBINSON: That's not a matter that you can take up in that

22 way, Mr. Milosevic.

23 MR. NICE:

24 Q. Whether the original's in another language or not I can't say, but

25 let me just make this point to you: You know, don't you, Mr. Jovanovic,

Page 36437

1 that from the fall of Srebrenica right round and until 1996, despite the

2 flow of information coming about Mladic, despite Mladic being indicted by

3 this Tribunal, you and the accused met Mladic, you met him in meetings --

4 the accused met Mladic and there was no difficulty in contacting Mladic,

5 was there?

6 A. As far as I know, many other international mediators met with

7 Mladic too. Therefore, that cannot be reduced to contacts only with him.

8 As far as I remember, I met him only once during that period of time, and

9 I did that because there were international visitors.

10 Now, as to contacts with President Milosevic, I don't know about

11 that.

12 Q. You can point to no single condemnation of Mladic by this accused,

13 no single querying of what Mladic had done, by this accused, throughout

14 that period of time in which he was supported and in which time efforts

15 were made to free him from ever being handed over to this Tribunal. Is

16 that summary correct?

17 A. This is your summary. This is how you wish to portray matters. I

18 don't have such information. I wasn't informed about the developments

19 enough in order to draw conclusions. I'm afraid that your conclusion is

20 very tendentious.

21 MR. NICE: Thank you.

22 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. The four documents are admitted.

23 Mr. Milosevic, re-examination. And remember, no leading

24 questions.

25 The four documents are tabs 51, 53, 54, and 57.

Page 36438

1 MR. NICE: 55, I think, is one other outstanding number.

2 JUDGE KWON: It was dealt with already. It was admitted.

3 JUDGE ROBINSON: I understand that was already admitted.

4 MR. NICE: Okay. Thank you.

5 JUDGE ROBINSON: The cables.

6 Mr. Milosevic, yes.

7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Robinson.

8 Re-examined by Mr. Milosevic:

9 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Jovanovic, as you spent several years at the

10 UN as head of the Yugoslav mission, I assume that you are very familiar

11 with the way that Security Council Resolutions are adopted.

12 A. Yes, at least those which pertain to us.

13 Q. I'm not asking about those which pertain to us. I'm interested in

14 the procedure for adopting Resolutions. Do you know, first of all, that

15 there is first a draft Resolution made, then there is a proposal made,

16 which goes to the blue file and remains there for 24 hours, and then the

17 Resolution is adopted?

18 A. Yes. This is the regular procedure.

19 Q. Therefore, each draft Resolution is placed in the white folder as

20 a proposal and then, after 24 hours, is being voted upon by the Security

21 Council.

22 A. Yes, unless it is amended in the meantime or replaced by another

23 draft, which is exactly the reason why it is kept in the blue file.

24 Q. But the date of the Resolution is the date when it was voted on

25 and adopted.

Page 36439

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. All right. Now, let us compare two documents of the UN. One can

3 be found in tab 8 of my binder, which is the report of the

4 Secretary-General, and the other one can be found in tab 11 of Mr. Nice's

5 binder, which is the Resolution of the Security Council containing the

6 formulation of sanctions against the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia. I

7 hope that you have both documents before you.

8 JUDGE ROBINSON: At tab 11 we don't have. Mr. Nice.

9 MR. NICE: It's an existing exhibit, therefore it was provided for

10 convenience to the accused but for others it was not provided as a

11 separate repeat document.

12 JUDGE KWON: Can it be put on the ELMO?

13 MR. NICE: Of course. I have a copy here that is highlighted. I

14 think Ms. Dicklich has one that is not highlighted.

15 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Milosevic. Bear in mind that tab 11 is

16 on the ELMO.

17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well.

18 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

19 Q. Now please turn to page 3 of tab 11, which is Resolution 757, from

20 1992. 30th of May, 1992.

21 JUDGE ROBINSON: Let us find it.

22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Please place the first page on the

23 ELMO.

24 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

25 Q. Very well. Therefore, can we all see that this is the Security

Page 36440

1 Council Resolution which was adopted on the 30th of May, 1992.

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. In order for it to be adopted on the 30th of May, does it mean

4 that, in accordance with the established procedure, it had to be submitted

5 into the blue file at least on the 29th of May?

6 A. Yes. That would be in accordance with the procedure.

7 Q. Very well. Now, turn to page 3, please. Please take a look at

8 page 3. There are several paragraphs. Item 1 in the middle of page 3

9 says: "[In English] Condemns the failure of the authorities in the

10 Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, including the Yugoslav People's Army, to

11 take effective measures to fulfil the requirements of Resolution 752."

12 [Interpretation] Does the Resolution 752 pertain to withdrawal of

13 the Yugoslav People's Army forces from Bosnia and Herzegovina?

14 A. Yes, among other things.

15 Q. Very well. So the Security Council condemns the failure of the

16 authorities of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, including the JNA, to

17 do so.

18 Now, please take a look at tab 8, which was also quoted by

19 Mr. Nice. This is the Secretary-General report. Now, let us first

20 establish facts pertaining to dates. Please put tab 8 on the ELMO. Page

21 1, please.

22 Can we see here that this is a report of the Secretary-General

23 pursuant to paragraph 4 of Security Council Resolution 752, and can it be

24 clearly seen that the date is the 30th of May, 1992?

25 A. Yes.

Page 36441

1 Q. So this is the same date on which the Resolution was adopted, a

2 Resolution that should have been placed in the blue binder the day before?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Is it an indisputable fact that this report was not considered

5 before the adoption of the Resolution?

6 A. This is more than evident because it arrived post festum.

7 Q. Now, let's look at the discrepancies and contradictions between

8 this report and the Resolution. The Resolution states that the Security

9 Council condemns the government of Yugoslavia and the JNA for not taking

10 effective measures.

11 In the report dated on the same day as the Resolution that was

12 adopted, it says -- look at paragraph 6. "Most of these --" paragraph 6,

13 second sentence -- can you hear me? My microphone is going on and off.

14 We can read it all, but it says here: "[In English] Most of these are

15 believed to have withdrawn already into Serbia and Montenegro, some of

16 them having been subjected to attack during their withdrawal."

17 [Interpretation] And then it goes on to say: "Others, however,

18 remain at various garrisons in Bosnia-Herzegovina [In English] areas,

19 including two installations on the outskirts of Sarajevo. A further

20 category consists of personnel who have been blocked in their barracks by

21 Territorial Defence of Bosnia-Herzegovina or hostile irregular forces."

22 [Interpretation] And then it goes on to explain where they are.

23 Is it indisputable that this shows that the JNA forces did

24 withdraw from Bosnia and Herzegovina?

25 A. This is clearly stated. As long as it depended on them alone.

Page 36442

1 They were unable to do so when they were prevented by the army of Alija

2 Izetbegovic.

3 MR. NICE: I must, I suppose, take some steps to stop questions

4 that begin - this is the second one - is something indisputable. I don't

5 think the answers are ever of any value if questions are formulated in

6 that way. I beg your pardon. It may be the Chamber will decide that they

7 are of no such value.

8 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Milosevic. Avoid that introductory

9 phrase.

10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I will avoid the introductory

11 phrase, but I did not feel this to be a leading question because it points

12 to the text of a document issued by the United Nations, a Resolution and a

13 report by the Secretary-General. However, I will put my question

14 differently.

15 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

16 Q. Mr. Jovanovic, between what the Secretary-General's report dated

17 the 30th of May, 1992, and what it says in the Security Council Resolution

18 of the same date, which was adopted on the 30th of May, 1992, regarding

19 the situation regarding the withdrawal of the army from Bosnia and

20 Herzegovina, is there a contradiction?

21 A. There evidently is, because in paragraph 1, Yugoslavia is

22 condemned for failing to comply with Resolution 752 and withdrawing the

23 JNA, while here the opposite is stated, that Yugoslavia has done this.

24 But in order for it to do this a hundred per cent, it could not do so

25 because it was prevented by Alija Izetbegovic who blocked a barracks.

Page 36443












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 36444

1 Q. Very well. Let us make a small digression in connection with the

2 comparison between these two documents and my intention of showing that

3 the Secretary-General's report was not taken into consideration when the

4 Resolution was adopted. So I will quote paragraph 5 of the

5 Secretary-General's report. Mr. Nice quoted only half of this paragraph,

6 not all of it, when he put his question to you as to how the army of RSK

7 was established.

8 "[In English] The bulk of the JNA personnel --" [Interpretation]

9 Is there a translation?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Repeat: "[In English] -- who were deployed in Bosnia and

12 Herzegovina were citizens of that republic and were not therefore covered

13 by the Belgrade authorities' decision of 4th of May to withdraw JNA from

14 Bosnia and Herzegovina."

15 [Interpretation] It goes on to describe what happened to them.

16 "[In English] Most of them appear to have joined the army of the

17 so-called 'Serbian Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina'. Others have

18 joined the Territorial Defence of Bosnia and Herzegovina, which is under

19 the political control of the Presidency of that republic. Others may have

20 joined various irregular forces operating there."

21 [Interpretation] What does this tell us, Mr. Jovanovic, in order

22 to avoid putting a leading question?

23 A. Well, this explains that Yugoslavia -- or, rather, the JNA

24 fulfilled the essence of its obligation from Resolution 752 and explains

25 how this came about. All the soldiers and officers born in Montenegro and

Page 36445

1 Serbia withdrew. Those who were born in and were citizens of the Republic

2 of Bosnia and Herzegovina remained and joined the so-called new army of

3 the Republika Srpska or various territorial units.

4 In any case, what happened here was what happened to the JNA from

5 Slovenia onwards.

6 Q. Very well, Mr. Jovanovic.

7 JUDGE ROBINSON: May I just ask a question. Do you know what

8 percentage, Mr. Jovanovic, of the JNA personnel deployed in Bosnia and

9 Herzegovina were in fact citizens of that republic?

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] According to this report, 80 per

11 cent of the JNA personnel were citizens of Bosnia and Herzegovina, while

12 20 per cent were citizens of Serbia and Montenegro.

13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I go on, Mr. Robinson?


15 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

16 Q. Of these 80 per cent who were citizens of Bosnia and Herzegovina,

17 in paragraph 5 it says that they -- let me be precise: "[In English] The

18 bulk of the JNA personnel who were deployed in Bosnia and Herzegovina were

19 citizens of that republic ..." [Interpretation] And then it goes on to

20 say: "[In English] ... and were not therefore covered by Belgrade

21 authorities' decision." [Interpretation] It goes on: "Most of them

22 appear to have joined the army of the so-called 'Serbian

23 Bosnia-Herzegovina.'"

24 This is part of that 80 per cent. They joined the army of the

25 Serbian Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina. And the next sentence goes on

Page 36446

1 to say: "Others have joined the Territorial Defence of Bosnia and

2 Herzegovina, which is under the political control of the Presidency of

3 that republic." The majority of the citizens of Bosnia and Herzegovina

4 making up the JNA in Bosnia and Herzegovina separated into those who

5 joined the army of the Serbian Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina and

6 those who joined the army under the control of Alija Izetbegovic. Is that

7 what it says here?

8 A. Yes. Those soldiers who were of Muslim ethnicity or, rather, the

9 Islamic religion, of course didn't want to stay in the army of Republika

10 Srpska. They joined the other side.

11 Q. Well, I'm not going into what is natural or not, just into the

12 facts in this report. Let us now return to paragraph 1 of the

13 Secretary-General's report in order to establish how things happened.

14 It says here in paragraph 2, where it says "Background": "[In

15 English] On 26 April 1992, President Izetbegovic of Bosnia and Herzegovina

16 met at Skopje with General Blagoje Adzic, Chief of Staff of JNA and Acting

17 Federal Secretary for Defence, and Mr. Branko Kostic, vice-president of

18 the Federal Presidency in Belgrade, to define the role of JNA in Bosnia

19 and Herzegovina and its overall withdrawal."

20 JUDGE ROBINSON: It's "eventual withdrawal."

21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I apologise. "And its eventual

22 withdrawal." Yes, Mr. Robinson, that's correct.


24 Q. "[In English] This meeting did not produce a definitive agreement,

25 and the Belgrade authorities on 4 May announced their decision to withdraw

Page 36447

1 from Bosnia-Herzegovina by 18 May all JNA personnel who were not citizens

2 of that republic. On 13 May, Vice-president Kostic proposed to President

3 Izetbegovic that the talks be resumed with the participation of

4 representatives of the Bosnian Serb and Croat communities. On the same

5 day, authorities of the so-called 'Serbian Republic of Bosnia and

6 Herzegovina' announced their decision to form their own army, which would

7 be composed of units of the former JNA based in Bosnia and Herzegovina,

8 and appointed General Ratko Mladic as Commander of that army."

9 [Interpretation] Are you aware that the vice-president of the

10 Presidency of Yugoslavia, and this was the Supreme Command of the armed

11 forces, the vice-president of the Presidency of Yugoslavia and the chief

12 of the General Staff and the acting minister of defence met with

13 Izetbegovic in Skopje and attempted to solve the problems of the JNA in

14 Bosnia and Herzegovina? There was no agreement, as can be seen here, and

15 the Presidency reached the decision that the JNA personnel who did not

16 originate from Bosnia and Herzegovina be withdrawn.

17 Are you aware that -- are you aware of what the deputy president,

18 Mr. Kostic, proposed to Alija Izetbegovic, asking him to call upon the

19 Serbian and Croatian communities to take over the personnel and equipment

20 of the JNA belonging to them remaining in Bosnia and Herzegovina? Do you

21 know more about this?

22 A. I know only about the existence of such a proposal, "that this

23 issue should be resolved in agreement with all interested parties and that

24 the JNA should withdraw, in agreement with the wishes and will of

25 everyone, of all concerned." As we can see from this text, this was not

Page 36448

1 accepted. After this, the federal leadership reached a decision to

2 withdraw all the units of the JNA with a deadline of the 19th of May, if I

3 remember correctly. Those who were citizens of Bosnia and Herzegovina had

4 the option of remaining in Bosnia and Herzegovina, and most of them did

5 so.

6 Q. The president of the Presidency proposed to Alija Izetbegovic that

7 all three ethnic communities should take over the property and personnel

8 of the JNA on the territory of Bosnia and Herzegovina. Is this what

9 happened?

10 A. Well, that was the essence of his proposal.

11 Q. Now, look at paragraph 2. "On 17 May I received a letter --" this

12 means the Secretary-General received a letter "-- from Admiral Miroslav

13 Simic, [In English] Chief of General Staff JNA, requesting --"

14 [Interpretation] It's quite unclear here. I think it says assistance --

15 "[In English] in the safe withdrawal of JNA troops from Bosnia and

16 Herzegovina, and particularly from Sarajevo, Pazaric and Zenica. The

17 letter referred inter alia to an agreement, to an agreement signed on 10th

18 of May at the premises of United Nations Protection Forces in Yugoslavia,

19 (UNPROFOR), at Sarajevo by representatives of the Presidency of Bosnia and

20 Herzegovina, JNA, the European Community Monitoring Mission, and the

21 personal envoy of Lord Carrington, Mr. Colm Doyle. On 21st of May,

22 vice-president Kostic again wrote to ask me to request President

23 Izetbegovic to order the deblocking of the JNA garrison at Sarajevo. On

24 25 May 1992, I received a letter from President Izetbegovic in which,

25 inter alia, he requested that UNPROFOR should supervise the withdrawal of

Page 36449

1 part of the JNA personnel and weapons, in accordance with the agreement of

2 10 May..."

3 [Interpretation] Are you aware, Mr. Jovanovic, of what happened in

4 Dobrovoljacka street when the JNA column was attacked which was being

5 escorted by UNPROFOR? UNPROFOR was overseeing the withdrawal leading the

6 convoy, it was there on the spot, and do you remember the massacre of that

7 convoy?

8 MR. NICE: I repeat what I have said on many occasions: It

9 doesn't concern me how the accused uses his time, but I wonder whether the

10 Chamber would want to consider whether what's now being engaged in really

11 arises out of cross-examination by doing a long textual analysis of the

12 document again, only asked a few questions, partly for want of time and

13 partly for other reasons, and we're now taking something out of the

14 document and going to the underlying facts of it. It's a matter for the

15 Chamber, but it doesn't seem to me necessarily to be re-examination.

16 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, but I think you did raise issues relating to

17 this report, Mr. Nice, and I think the accused is entitled to re-examine

18 on them.

19 MR. NICE: Matter for the Court.

20 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

21 Q. Very well. In any case, let us be brief. The main element in the

22 report, where it says that the JNA withdrew from Bosnia and Herzegovina,

23 when this is compared with the Resolution bearing the same date, the 30th

24 of May, 1992, points to major discrepancies between the contents of the

25 Resolution and the contents of the report.

Page 36450

1 To whose detriment are these discrepancies?

2 A. Evidently to the detriment of Yugoslavia. As for the text you

3 read out, I wish to mention General MacKenzie's book where he describes in

4 detail how this all came about and who was responsible for the death of

5 these cadets in Dobrovoljacka street.

6 Q. I will not quote again paragraph 6 from the Secretary-General's

7 report which says they did withdraw and were exposed to attacks during

8 withdrawal. Let us, rather, go to the Resolution in tab 11 and paragraph

9 2.

10 In paragraph 1, the Serbs are condemned for something that was not

11 actually true, and paragraph 2 demands that any element of the Croatian

12 army still present in Bosnia and Herzegovina act in accordance with

13 paragraph 4 of Resolution 752 without further delay.

14 Would you now please look here.

15 JUDGE ROBINSON: [Previous translation continues] ... you're going

16 to try to finish now, because we are at the time for the break.

17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I will just round off this topic,

18 and it will take me a minute and a half.

19 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

20 Q. In paragraph 10 of the Secretary-General's report, it says: "[In

21 English] As regards the element of withdrawal of the Croatian army now in

22 Bosnia-Herzegovina, information currently available in New York suggests

23 that no such withdrawal has occurred. UNPROFOR has received reliable

24 reports of Croatian army personnel in uniform operating within, and as

25 part of, military formations in Bosnia and Herzegovina..."

Page 36451

1 [Interpretation] and so on and so forth.

2 What it says here in the Secretary-General's report in connection

3 with the presence of the regular Croatian army in Bosnia and Herzegovina,

4 as UNPROFOR reported, does it contradict paragraph 2 of the Resolution

5 which says that any element of Croatian army still present?

6 A. According to this report, the Resolution should have been passed

7 against Croatia, not us. I wish to remind Their Honours that a week

8 before the adoption of this Resolution, the political director, Mr. Kirsay

9 [phoen] said that the general perception was that it was our fault and

10 this would remain, even though it was the Croatian army that was in Bosnia

11 and Herzegovina, and it was the perception that was important.

12 Q. Thank you, Mr. Jovanovic. I will not dwell further on this

13 Resolution of the 30th of May and the Secretary-General's report of the

14 30th of May. I believe that this is now sufficiently clear and that the

15 links between those two documents which are evidently non-existent have

16 been demonstrated.

17 JUDGE KWON: One question. Mr. Jovanovic, if you take a look at

18 paragraph 17 of the Secretary-General's report, while we are on that

19 document, that reads: "The Security Council's decision today to impose

20 sanctions on the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia creates a new situation.

21 It is not yet clear what implications this will have for the issues

22 discussed in this report."

23 Did the Secretary-General not envisage that there will be a

24 Security Council Resolution on the very same day, imposing sanctions on

25 Yugoslavia?

Page 36452

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can't say what the

2 Secretary-General thought, whether he envisaged it or not, but if he was

3 familiar with the report which he signed, and he had to be familiar with

4 it before the 30th, then he could not, at least intimately, have agreed

5 with the text of the Resolution.

6 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.

7 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

8 Q. Mr. Jovanovic, the question put to you by Mr. Kwon only goes to

9 confirm that the report was drawn up on the day when the Security Council

10 was sitting and reaching a decision on sanctions. What does this mean?

11 This Security Council Resolution today creates a new situation. "[In

12 English] It is not yet clear what implications this will have for the

13 issues discussed in this report."

14 Does it seem to you that the Secretary-General warned --

15 MR. NICE: Seems like a leading questioning coming, to me.

16 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. Rephrase, Mr. Milosevic. After the break.

17 I think we should take the break now. Twenty minutes.

18 --- Recess taken at 12.24 p.m.

19 --- On resuming at 12.47 p.m.

20 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Milosevic.

21 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

22 Q. Mr. Jovanovic, let us briefly return to the Security Council

23 Resolution dated the 30th of May, which we can find in tab 11, where in

24 the introductory part, as is usual, they refer to the Secretary-General's

25 report. Please take a look at page 2 of this Resolution, where somewhere

Page 36453

1 towards the bottom -- or, rather, the fourth paragraph from the bottom,

2 "expressing its appreciation for the report of Secretary-General of the

3 26th of May, 1992 Resolution 752."

4 What is stated here, does it point to the fact that this

5 Resolution refers to the report of 26th of May and that the 30th of May

6 report is not being mentioned anywhere?

7 A. Yes, that's right.

8 Q. Now, to go back to the question raised by Mr. Kwon about

9 Secretary-General saying that what the Security Council is deciding upon

10 today about the sanction creates the situation that this is not yet clear

11 what implications this will have for the issues discussed in this report.

12 Is this some kind of a warning or reservation expressed or it has no

13 significance at all?

14 A. I think that this is both a kind of reservation and a warning,

15 because there are always uncertainties and dangers that can follow.

16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Unfortunately, I was unable to find

17 the Secretary-General's report dated the 26th. However, I will look for

18 it, Mr. Robinson, because it is obvious that it differs quite a lot from

19 the report of the 30th.

20 Yes. This report came four days after the report mentioned in the

21 Resolution.

22 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

23 Q. Mr. Nice raised the issues contained in tab 15, which are

24 stenograms from the extended session of the coordination council. Please

25 take a look at the page where stenogram starts. This is not really in

Page 36454

1 chronological order because page 2 comes before page 1, but the title is

2 Stenographic Notes from the Extended Session of the Council.

3 Does it stem from the first paragraph, which lists those in

4 attendance, that towards the end, when all the officials of the Federal

5 Republic of Yugoslavia, Republic of Serbia and Montenegro are mentioned,

6 at the end it states: "Members of the council," which is the ninth line

7 from the top. Those attending, the Academician Dobrica Cosic, president

8 of Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, president of the council; Radoje

9 Kontic, vice-president of the government; Momir Bulatovic, and so on,

10 Dr. Svetozar Stojanovic, special advisor to the president of the Serbia is

11 the last name, and then it says members of the council, and then they

12 proceed to enumerate persons which in the translation that can be seen on

13 the ELMO shows that it was done in a different form. The names are listed

14 differently than in the original, because first they list members of the

15 council and then the persons attending the session.

16 Can you see that in the stenographic notes before you?

17 A. I can see that in the Serbian version and also in the other one.

18 Q. Could you please put page 1 of the Serbian version on the ELMO so

19 that we can see just to what extent it differs from the translation. The

20 translation, in fact, does not distinguish between the members of the

21 council and those who, according to the person chairing the session,

22 invite -- were invited.

23 Please take a look at the stenographic notes in their original

24 version.

25 So after that, in line nine from the top, after they list those

Page 36455

1 attending, including the advisor, they proceed to say: "Member of the

2 council," and then there's a colon and the names, Colonel General Zivota

3 Panic, and so on, the other names.

4 Mr. Jovanovic, was this council a forum for exchange of opinions

5 or was it an organ that was able to pass decisions?

6 A. It was mostly the former. It was a forum where positions were

7 coordinated and opinions adopted.

8 Q. Whose positions were coordinated or harmonised? Because we can

9 see that the top officials of Yugoslavia and the republics attended this

10 session. So whose positions were harmonised?

11 A. The positions of representatives of these two Serb republics,

12 because all of this has to do with Vance-Owen Plan. These issues had to

13 be dealt with in such a way as to make the plan acceptable for them as

14 well.

15 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Jovanovic, does the Serbian document indicate

16 the two categories that Mr. Milosevic was identifying?

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, because in the Serbian

18 document, on page 10, after enumerating members of the council, there's a

19 dash and then members of the council follows. So this clearly

20 distinguishes between the two categories. So it is quite clear who are

21 the members of the council and who are the invited guests.

22 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

23 Q. Very well. Now, please tell us at whose initiative these people

24 were invited to attend the sessions of the council. Was it the chairman

25 of the council, or whose initiative was it?

Page 36456












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13 English transcripts.













Page 36457

1 A. I think it was at the initiative of the president of the council,

2 Dobrica Cosic. I received notice to attend from his cabinet.

3 Q. Does it mean that everybody who was invited to the session was

4 expected to present their views?

5 A. Yes. That was expected. If they were invited, then it was

6 assumed that they would present their views about the difficulties, how to

7 resolve them, the process, and so on; otherwise, what would be the point

8 of inviting them?

9 Q. All right. Now, please go to page 34, because Mr. Nice quoted

10 several things mentioned earlier by me -- rather, quoted my words.

11 On page 34 it says: "Slobodan Milosevic." In the middle of third

12 paragraph. Before that I say: "I would propose that we look at what is

13 on the table and what we should do right now." And then I say: "First of

14 all, I would not like to go into a scholastic discussion about small and

15 major steps. I would rather speak about good and bad steps. A major bad

16 step is definitely worse than a small bad step."

17 And then in the next paragraph, I say: "Our strategic goal is to

18 ensure that the Serb people in the Balkans are free and equal -- have

19 equal rights with others."

20 Is that what it states, Mr. Jovanovic?

21 A. Yes. And this is the main point of your position.

22 Q. And then towards the end I say: "It is less important to me

23 through how many institutional phases we need to go. What is more

24 important is how many people will have to die for those goals and should

25 -- should somebody die."

Page 36458

1 Is that what it says here?

2 A. Yes. However, I have to say that this was also contained in the

3 letters sent by you to the leadership of Republika Srpska and Republika

4 Srpska Krajina when they refused to accept certain peace plans.

5 Q. Now, please go to page 38, passage in the centre of the page.

6 Still I am the one speaking. "Therefore, I opt for a pragmatic approach

7 to existing circumstances and situations and using all available

8 possibilities in order to go further, then opting for confrontation,

9 because that could lead to major bloodshed or could take us to a dead

10 alley. We have to take a number of steps. However, we have to ensure

11 that there is additional initiative for further peace negotiations. I

12 think that this problem needs to be viewed from several aspects in order

13 to find a good attitude or good solution for the further work of the

14 conference."

15 Is this the conference on former Yugoslavia?

16 A. I think so. I think the one held in Geneva.

17 THE INTERPRETER: Could Mr. Milosevic please repeat what he read

18 out. He's reading at quite a fast pace.

19 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic, the interpreters are asking you to

20 repeat what you just read out, and they say you are moving too quickly.

21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right. I will read slower.

22 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

23 Q. Once again I speak of the goal, and then it says: "The goal which

24 has to do with freedom and equality of Serb people in the Balkan

25 Peninsula. However, we need to ask ourselves through which institutional

Page 36459

1 phases will the achievement of these goals have to pass."

2 And then further on, on page 39: "Therefore, I suggest that we

3 should consider that possible direction and review what steps are

4 possible." Nikola Koljevic says: "Asking for a signature on the paper."

5 Milosevic: "Why wouldn't we sign something that suits us if we are able

6 to improve it?" Nikola Koljevic: "And if we're not able to improve it?"

7 Milosevic: "There is no Atasari's constitution." If you remember,

8 Atasari was Lord Owen's assistant. "You will be writing a constitution

9 together with Alija and Boban."

10 Alija Izetbegovic, the reference is made to him, and Mate Boban,

11 president of the Croatian Community. Are these the people referred to?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. And then on page 40, Milosevic once again: "They are -- they have

14 changed the principles in the discussions already. The one change is that

15 they say three constituent people." He used the term "three constituent

16 peoples." Is that what is stated here?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Therefore, this took place on the 9th of January, 1993. What

19 actually took place at this meeting where everybody expressed their

20 attitude as to how we should deal with the negotiations? What were we

21 trying to do?

22 A. What we were trying to do is convince representatives of Republika

23 Srpska and Republic of Serbian Krajina that the most important thing was

24 to ensure their freedom and equality and their constituent status and that

25 to ensure that their vote is taken into account when deciding things in

Page 36460

1 Bosnia-Herzegovina. They were very agitated, they were very frustrated.

2 They did not act logically. They were afraid that they would be

3 manipulated and left without anything in the end. Therefore, your efforts

4 to convince them, as well as efforts of President Cosic and myself, were

5 aimed at that, to convince them that they had nothing to fear if they were

6 granted everything that was stated in Vance-Owen Plan, and that plan

7 offered a compromise for all three sides. And there was nothing there to

8 indicate that there was an intention to grab the territories of Bosnia and

9 Herzegovina or perhaps create Greater Serbia.

10 Q. Very well. Mr. Jovanovic, let us turn to tab 16, which is again a

11 session of this council held on the 21st of January, 1993. So the topic

12 is practically the same. Is that obvious to you as well, Mr. Jovanovic?

13 A. Yes. This was on the 9th of January, 1993.

14 Q. Yes. And the next session was held on the 21st of January. So

15 after 12 days. Please take a look at page 39.

16 On page 39, it says: "Slobodan Milosevic," and then a colon and I

17 will quote from the beginning, what is stated here: "I propose that we

18 try and see what can be expected in Geneva. We have a position of a

19 principled participant committed to a peaceful resolution of the crisis.

20 We invested maximum efforts to ensure that a principled position is

21 defined."

22 MR. NICE: [Previous translation continues] ...


24 MR. NICE: If he does want us to follow it, we don't have it yet

25 on the overhead projector.

Page 36461

1 JUDGE ROBINSON: Let's get it on the ELMO.

2 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

3 Q. Page 39.

4 A. I apologise. I have notes dated January 9 here but we've already

5 covered that.

6 Q. Yes. We have covered that and now we have turned to tab 16.

7 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for the accused, please.

8 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

9 Q. Then we have tab 16, from the session of the same council.

10 A. Oh, you say tab 16. Okay. I've found it.

11 Q. So is that a session of the same council but held on the 21st of

12 January?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Please put page 39 on the ELMO.

15 MR. NICE: We haven't yet found the equivalent of page 39. I'm

16 just looking for it at the moment. This is, I think, one of those

17 versions which -- where the interpreters, when they did their work, didn't

18 place the parallel page numbers. 34. Ms. Dicklich has found it. Page

19 34.

20 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

21 Q. Mr. Jovanovic, please put page 39 on the ELMO, of the Serbian

22 text.

23 JUDGE ROBINSON: You want the Serbian text on the ELMO,

24 Mr. Milosevic?

25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I think that is logical, because

Page 36462

1 both of us speak Serbian, and you have the English text in front of you,

2 and you can follow whether the interpreters are interpreting correctly.

3 JUDGE ROBINSON: The problem is we don't have the English text.

4 We are relying on the ELMO.

5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right, then. All right. Then

6 the interpreters will interpret it for you, I assume. I have what I

7 received from Mr. Nice for his cross. This is not my exhibit.

8 May I read out this quotation?


10 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

11 Q. "Therefore, we hold the position of a principled participant

12 supporting a peaceful resolution of the crisis, and we invested maximum

13 efforts to ensure that the principle platform is defined. The delegation

14 of Yugoslavia has a completely different attitude to the issue of maps,

15 military agreement and other specific issues which, precisely on the basis

16 of the principles we have supported, really ought to be negotiated by

17 these three sides. Our position should in principle favour peace and the

18 consensus of all three sides and equal protection of interests of all

19 three nations. But the concrete agreement based on those principles and

20 based on our principled approach to these issues, is in their hands."

21 Therefore, Mr. Jovanovic, specific agreement is in the hands of

22 three sides in Bosnia. Is that clear?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. All right. I continue to quote: "Therefore, we support all those

25 three sides in their efforts to sit down and agree on specific issues -

Page 36463

1 maps and other military and other issues."

2 Please, was this the standpoint I advocated, and was this

3 something that was the constant policy advocated by Serbia?

4 A. Yes. Not only in the case of Republika Srpska but the RSK. We

5 were supporting a peaceful and principled solution, and it was up to the

6 sides in the dispute to solve specific issues, especially those pertaining

7 to maps and organisation. This was repeatedly expressed to the

8 international representatives and all those interested. They kept asking

9 you to politically support their efforts, and you did so. This can be

10 seen from the fact that you supported all five peace proposals from the

11 beginning.

12 Q. Yes, that's clear, but this is not only support for the Vance-Owen

13 Plan, it also shows that we support a peaceful solution and all three

14 sides sitting down together and agreeing on specific issues.

15 A. Yes. This was in fact the issue of maps which is what interested

16 the most.

17 Q. Yes. But do you recall -- it says that the delegation of

18 Yugoslavia, with respect to issues of maps, military agreements and other

19 specific issues based on the principles we advocated, felt that this was

20 really something to be negotiated by all three sides. This is something

21 we did not want to interfere in. We felt the three sides should agree

22 among themselves. We supported all three sides sitting down together and

23 agreeing on it.

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And this was the principled approach at the meeting where the

Page 36464

1 Yugoslav representatives were sitting, not the Muslims or the other sides

2 but the Serbs and the Montenegrins. Is this so?

3 A. Yes. This was an honest approach to the problems. This was not

4 in order to present a pretty picture to foreigners, this was what you

5 really wanted.

6 Q. Very well. Let me just put these documents in order. There is a

7 vast quantity of material here presented by Mr. Nice. I have no objection

8 to that, but it's quite time-consuming.

9 Mr. Jovanovic, I will now very briefly touch upon the question put

10 to you by Mr. Nice, who spent an hour going through various tabs showing

11 information pertaining mainly to the content of the draft Resolution of

12 the Security Council dealing with the events in Srebrenica. I will not

13 mention the tabs because Mr. Nice has put them under seal, but the

14 contents were mainly about the draft Resolution of the Security Council in

15 connection with Srebrenica.

16 Mr. Jovanovic, my question is the following: The draft

17 Resolutions of the Security Council, are these public documents?

18 A. The draft Resolutions should not be public documents unless they

19 were leaked to someone who was interested in seeing them. Their purpose

20 was for the governments that were to be consulted to be informed and to

21 prepare the final text.

22 Q. Yes, but am I right in assuming that these drafts are not a secret

23 to UN officials and officials working in UN missions, that is, for

24 diplomatic staff?

25 A. Well, they should be, but privately they could obtain these drafts

Page 36465

1 in order to gain time and study them thoroughly.

2 Q. Very well. We will not going into this further. But you received

3 this information because it was available to diplomatic staff who informed

4 you about these Resolutions?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. This is not in dispute?

7 A. No.

8 Q. Mr. Nice spent a lot of time establishing that you, as far as I

9 can recall from his cross-examination, were informed of the contents of

10 this Resolution concerning the situation around Srebrenica at the latest

11 by the 13th of July; is that correct?

12 A. Yes, on the basis of the telegram that arrived. At least, that's

13 how I understood it.

14 Q. Very well. So you were informed about this on the 13th of July

15 and you confirm this?

16 A. Yes. I confirm that I received a telegram from a certain

17 diplomatic office.

18 Q. Very well. And in response to his question about when and how you

19 learned about the events in Srebrenica, you first replied that the first

20 you heard of it was from the press.

21 A. Yes, that's what I said.

22 Q. But it was established here that pursuant to information that you

23 received, you should have known this on the 13th of July. Is this in

24 dispute?

25 A. No.

Page 36466

1 Q. Very well. If it's not in dispute and you said that you found out

2 about it from the press, I have before me a photocopy of the leading

3 Yugoslav newspaper, Politika, of the 11th of June.

4 THE INTERPRETER: "July," interpreter's correction. The 11th of

5 July.

6 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

7 Q. Where on page 3 it says: "Security Council session discusses

8 situation in Srebrenica. The council demands that all sides respect the

9 status of the protected area."

10 It goes on to say that after the session, Hernando Martinez Marco

11 [phoen], the chairman of the council, said that the council was concerned

12 by the worsening of the situation in Srebrenica and its surroundings.

13 I will now let you take a look at this. Let me first quote it and

14 then it can be put on the ELMO. This is a report from New York of the

15 11th of July, two days before Mr. Nice's document put forward as

16 information, which is quite mystified.

17 Mr. Ahmet Favci [phoen], who said that Muslims last week killed a

18 member of UNPROFOR and threw a hand grenade on an APC of the peace forces,

19 and so on and so forth.

20 You can put this on the ELMO. This is on the right-hand side.

21 It's only partly illegible, the photocopy, because it was faxed. But I do

22 apologise, before we put this on the ELMO, there is also a communique from

23 the Main Staff of the army of Republika Srpska of the 10th of July where,

24 according to the agency reports, it says that the combat operations are

25 aimed only at neutralising Muslim terrorists and not against the civilian

Page 36467

1 population and members of UNPROFOR.

2 Please put this on the ELMO.

3 What I said is underlined, what Favci says. The date is the 11th

4 of July. This Mr. Facvi, the UN spokesperson.

5 Q. It's on the right-hand side.

6 A. Yes, I see it.

7 Q. Can you please help the usher to put the right-hand side on the


9 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic, what is the caption? What is the

10 heading?

11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] If he can move it down and to the

12 left, please. Down. Not up, down. Down.

13 It says: "Session of the Security Council," and then the main

14 heading is, "Discussion on the situation in Srebrenica." Sub-heading,

15 "The council demands that all sides respect the status of the protected

16 areas." And the part that is marked is Hernando Martinez saying that the

17 council received with concern information on the worsening situation in

18 Srebrenica. And then if you can lift it up a little so we can see the

19 bottom of the page. The underlined part down here. A little bit more,

20 yes. At the bottom you have a passage which says, "Favci confirmed that

21 the Muslims over the past weekend in Srebrenica killed a member of

22 UNPROFOR and threw a hand grenade on an APC of the peace forces."

23 This was published in the newspapers on the 11th of July, and the

24 news item is evidently from the 10th of July.

25 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic, you must ask a question now.

Page 36468

1 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

2 Q. Mr. Jovanovic, before you received this material with information

3 on the contents of the Security Council Resolution that was placed under

4 seal by Mr. Nice, were you able to see this previously in the newspapers,

5 like all citizens? Not only you but everybody who was able to buy a

6 newspaper, and it was probably broadcast on the electronic media the day

7 before.

8 A. Probably, yes, because I read Politika regularly. So if it's in

9 Politika, then I probably did.

10 Q. So certainly the information reached the newspapers before you

11 received that information from New York?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. On the front page of this newspaper - and I will ask you to put

14 this on the ELMO as well, I will give it to you - there is an interview,

15 my interview to the weekly Time, which was published a day before. The

16 title is "Milosevic: Only one solution for Bosnia and Herzegovina, the

17 one that will equally protect the interests of the Serbs, Muslims, and

18 Croats." I'll let you put it on the ELMO in just a minute. I only have

19 this one copy.

20 Let me read a quote. Do you know that at the time the issue of

21 the removal of sanctions, of the lifting of sanctions was being discussed?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Are you aware that there had already been a decrease in the

24 sanctions?

25 A. Yes, as a result of the 4th of August, 1994.

Page 36469












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Page 36470

1 Q. And did this show that the international community was recognising

2 that we were leading a peaceful policy?

3 A. Certainly. Otherwise, they would not have reduced the sanctions.

4 Q. The question was put here, and this has to do with the release of

5 hostages, and they say that I managed to convince the leadership over

6 there to do that, just a brief quotation: "Milosevic: Until the

7 sanctions are lifted, Izetbegovic will count on Serbia collapsing under

8 the weight of the sanctions. It doesn't matter to the Muslims whether

9 this will happen in two years or 20. They're dreaming of a situation in

10 which we will collapse and then with all their allies they will achieve

11 their goal of establishing a Muslim state in Europe. On the other side,

12 the leadership in Pale, since we have been under sanctions, have been

13 counting on us interfering in that war. If the sanctions are lifted and

14 if the relations of the main factor of stability, the Federal Republic of

15 Yugoslavia, are normalised, Izetbegovic and Karadzic will have to face

16 each other and negotiate a peace agreement without calculating any further

17 as to what might happen."

18 Would you please put this on the ELMO.

19 Would you please help the usher put this on the ELMO, first the

20 caption and then what it says about sanctions and what my standpoint is.

21 "Milosevic: Only one solution for Bosnia and Herzegovina, a solution that

22 will equally protect the interests of Serbs, Muslims, and Croats."

23 And then it says: "Why was it good to preserve Yugoslavia for all

24 Serbs, all Croats, all Muslims, and all Slovenians as our common state?"

25 And then at the bottom --

Page 36471

1 JUDGE ROBINSON: What's the question, Mr. Milosevic? Question.

2 Question.

3 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

4 Q. Mr. Jovanovic -- could you just lift this up a little bit so we

5 can see what it says at the bottom.

6 Was this the essence of our policy in advocating a solution --

7 more, more. Yes. Lift it up a little bit more.

8 JUDGE ROBINSON: You will have to reformulate that. You're giving

9 the witness the answer, so --

10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well.

11 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

12 Q. Mr. Jovanovic, what I said in my interview to Time was published

13 in its entirety by Politika, the leading Yugoslav newspaper. Was this my

14 public standpoint addressed both to the international community and in

15 Yugoslavia?

16 A. Yes. This was the quintessence of our policy regarding the

17 Bosnian crisis.

18 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic, you will finish in -- within 14

19 minutes -- ten minutes. Yes.

20 MR. KAY: Exhibit both newspaper cuttings.

21 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, those may be exhibited.

22 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

23 Q. Now, please take a look -- take a look at the Politika daily.

24 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic, the Court Deputy will give the

25 exhibit numbers.

Page 36472

1 THE REGISTRAR: The next exhibit number is D276. First Article,

2 D276; and the second one, D277.

3 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you.

4 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

5 Q. I also have a photocopy of the same daily, Politika daily, of the

6 12th of July. So still within the period of time that you were questioned

7 about as to when the session was convened.

8 Now, on page 1, the Security Council about the situation in Bosnia

9 and Herzegovina, and sub-heading says: "The fall of Srebrenica has been

10 confirmed." And then the UN spokesperson, Mr. Favci, said, "We can

11 confirm that the Serb forces have entered Srebrenica." And now the next

12 sentence says: "What is the Security Council going to say about the

13 protected zones?" And now the words of Mr. Favci, who is the spokesman of

14 Boutros-Ghali -- I will skip over some of the words, although I suggest

15 that you read them all.

16 And then it says: "We should not forget --" I marked that at the

17 bottom of the page -- "that both sides contributed to the deterioration of

18 the situation in Srebrenica and that Boutros-Ghali on a number of

19 occasions demanded that the protected zones be demilitarised. However,

20 that was not done, said Favci."

21 The statement of Mr. Favci goes on to the second page. However,

22 if you put these two pages together, you will see what I just read out in

23 its entirety.

24 Then they quote the following: " Marasin [phoen], representative

25 of the US foreign affairs ministry -- or, rather, Russian foreign affairs

Page 36473

1 ministry said the same thing as Mr. Favci, namely that the attacks on the

2 positions of the Serb army have significantly raised tensions in

3 Srebrenica."

4 JUDGE ROBINSON: To what purpose are you reading out these

5 passages? It's time for a question. We haven't yet reached the stage

6 where you can give evidence.

7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Robinson, Mr. Nice on the other

8 day spent an entire hour in order to explain how is it that Mr. Jovanovic

9 learned about the events in Srebrenica at the latest on the 13th of July.

10 I just showed you what the papers printed on the 11th and 12th of July,

11 bringing words of UN officials describing problems --

12 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic, the point is that you are not to

13 give evidence. If you read out a passage from the newspaper, you must ask

14 a question.

15 MR. NICE: Your Honour, may I make a point? I certainly didn't

16 spend an hour dealing with the particular circumstances of the arrival of

17 information about the events of Srebrenica. A few minutes. I spent time

18 producing a flow of information of a general character into Belgrade, and

19 I made that clear on several occasions.

20 I haven't stopped the re-examination on the newspapers for two

21 reasons. There may be some relevance or tangential relevance, and it

22 remains a matter for the accused how he spends his time. But it may help

23 the accused to have in mind that if he wants to get material like

24 newspaper reports of his statements into evidence, if he instructs his

25 associates to approach me, it may be possible that I can agree about

Page 36474

1 matters of that sort going into evidence and saving him time. I have been

2 able just to speak to his associates, although I understand their position

3 may be sensitive, but it's perfectly possible to negotiate with me and I

4 will do everything I can to accommodate the appropriate production of

5 evidence without taking time.

6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you, Mr. Nice.

7 Mr. Milosevic, you will have note of that offer. You're to put a

8 question now on the passage that you had read.

9 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

10 Q. Mr. Jovanovic, was it known to UNPROFOR and to the officials at

11 the Security Council as well as the Secretary-General that

12 demilitarisation was not carried out and that there were many terrorist

13 attacks launched from Srebrenica resulting in many deaths? Was that

14 known?

15 A. It was known. The Russian delegation, starting in 1993 and

16 onwards, insisted in the Security Council that the concept of protected

17 zone be cleared. That's how they framed it. And the Security Council

18 kept postponing that. It was obvious that the protected zones were abused

19 by the Muslims who used it as a site to launch their attacks against Serb

20 villages. And in the course of those operations, almost 2.000 Serb

21 civilians in the villages surrounding Srebrenica died as a result of those

22 attacks.

23 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Jovanovic, are you saying that prior to the

24 fall of Srebrenica you were aware of attacks by Muslims against Serbs but

25 unaware of attacks by Serbs against Muslims?

Page 36475

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I knew about both. Why wouldn't I

2 know? Those were publicly available facts. It was reported by the media

3 that the Muslim garrison in Srebrenica raided and massacred civilians in

4 Serb villages. It was also reported that the forces of Republika Srpska

5 attacked Srebrenica trying to enter it on a number occasions. That was

6 prevented by the pressure from the international community and also by the

7 pressure exerted by us.

8 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

9 Q. And that day, the spokesperson of Radovan Karadzic gave a

10 statement to the effect that in the past 45 days, they had over 30

11 civilian victims because the Muslims had abused the status of protected

12 zones and started attacks against civilians. This is what is reported by

13 the papers on the 12th.

14 Were those facts known to the public?

15 A. Well, if this was reported by the media, then yes, it was known to

16 the public.

17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Robinson, I would like this to

18 be exhibited. You can see that the date is the 12th of July. The leading

19 Yugoslav daily Politika reports about the fall of Srebrenica being

20 confirmed. So --


22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] -- if you wish to clarify anything

23 further, we can put this on the ELMO.

24 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, it may be exhibited.

25 THE REGISTRAR: Defence Exhibit D278.

Page 36476

1 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

2 Q. Mr. Jovanovic, Mr. Nice presented to you tab 21, which deals with

3 the issues of Srebrenica, and it's from April 1993. This is Mr. Nice's

4 tab 21.

5 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Milosevic, are you going to deal with it in

6 private session?

7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] No need for that, Mr. Kwon. This is

8 not protected for its contents but, rather, for its form. I will not deal

9 with the form, only with the contents. This refers to the Security

10 Council's Resolution from 1993.

11 JUDGE ROBINSON: That's fine, yes.

12 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

13 Q. This Resolution of the Security Council, as is stated here,

14 demands that the paramilitary forces of Bosnian Serbs cease with their

15 attacks on Srebrenica immediately. Do you remember, what was our position

16 regarding these attacks on Srebrenica? As far as I remember, it was not a

17 protected zone yet, or perhaps it was. Was it or wasn't it? And when it

18 became a protected zone, at whose initiative it was done, and who invested

19 maximum efforts to prevent any kind of a conflict in Srebrenica and around

20 it?

21 A. Srebrenica became a protected zone at the initiative of some

22 Security Council members. Our position was in respect of all protected

23 zones, not only Srebrenica, not to touch them and not to take control of

24 them. This was reiterated publicly by the leadership of the state. Not

25 only because it could have led to a retaliation, but also because we

Page 36477

1 wanted to limit and put an end to the war in Bosnia-Herzegovina, not flame

2 it further.

3 Q. All right, Mr. Jovanovic. Now, please take a look at the document

4 in tab 21 which shows that even at that time, in 1993, the Security

5 Council adopted a decision to introduce the security zone.

6 A. Yes. It became a protected zone that year.

7 Q. And do you remember what activities we pursued in order to protect

8 that area?

9 A. Well, I don't remember much about that. I just remember that we

10 always warned them about not expanding military action but, rather, to

11 turn to a political resolution.

12 JUDGE ROBINSON: This will be your last question. As I indicated,

13 we are stopping at 1.43.

14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well.

15 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

16 Q. Mr. Jovanovic, we provided assistance to Republika Srpska. Now,

17 please tell me the following: Was our assistance to Republika Srpska

18 something that ever pertained to any paramilitary formations, and did the

19 leadership of Republika Srpska ever ask us to provide any kind of

20 paramilitary formations?

21 A. As far as I know, that was never the case. They never mentioned

22 any paramilitary formations in their conversations with us, only their

23 army.

24 Q. Do you remember what was my position, the position of the

25 leadership of the Republic of Serbia and Yugoslavia, with respect to

Page 36478

1 paramilitary formations?

2 A. Your position was always a negative one. In talks with us and in

3 talks with others, you always insisted that all those volunteers who at

4 the early stage of the Yugoslav crisis signed up always ought to be under

5 the control of the JNA.

6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you, Mr. Milosevic.

7 And thank you, Mr. Jovanovic. That concludes your testimony.

8 Thank you for coming to the Tribunal to give it. You may leave.

9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Robinson, I did not conclude my

10 additional examination.

11 JUDGE ROBINSON: I concluded it. It's 1.43, and I had indicated

12 last week that we have to stop at 1.43 so that we don't overrun and so

13 that the trial which is scheduled to begin at 2.15 does not begin at 2.25.

14 I have received numerous complaints.

15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Robinson --

16 MR. NICE: May tabs --

17 [Trial Chamber confers]

18 JUDGE ROBINSON: Do you have more questions to ask of this

19 witness? Do you want this witness to return tomorrow, Mr. Milosevic?

20 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Certainly. I need to conclude my

21 re-examination. Mr. Robinson, are you aware of the fact just how much

22 material Mr. Nice introduced in his cross? At least three times what I

23 introduced in my examination-in-chief. Therefore, I have to deal with the

24 documents presented by him. I have to put questions to the witness about

25 them.

Page 36479

1 JUDGE ROBINSON: Well, I was really thinking of the witness's own

2 welfare. He has been here for such a long time.

3 Mr. Jovanovic, Mr. Milosevic needs you tomorrow. You will have to

4 return tomorrow, and I hope your re-examination will be concluded very

5 quickly. I had thought we had finished.

6 MR. NICE: Before I forget, tabs 42, 43, 44, 45, 46, 47, 49 and 50

7 should be under seal, with your leave.


9 We are adjourned, and we will resume tomorrow morning at 9.00.

10 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.46 p.m.,

11 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 23rd day of

12 February, 2005, at 9.00 a.m.