1 Wednesday, 4 May 2005
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.08 a.m.
5 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Nice.
6 MR. NICE: Before the accused calls his next witness, I wonder if
7 I might make a very short submission on a procedural matter stimulated by
8 reading the filing of the accused's legal associate in respect of a
9 proposed witness, Henning Hensch. As to that application I say very
10 little beyond that the 65 ter summary hardly explains the need to call the
11 witness and the fleshing out of that summary by what is obtained on 7(B),
12 where it is said that he will provide testimony of value in respect of the
13 Croatian and Bosnian parts of the indictment, comes without particulars.
14 We made it clear that we are neutral as to how the accused spends
15 his 150 allocated days and would in principle leave this application
16 entirely to the Chamber, but we have concerns arising from the passage of
17 time and the seeming marginal value, at best, of this type of witness.
18 And I invite the Chamber to consider the desirability of doing the
19 following with the accused: Might the Chamber now, or soon, invite him to
20 identify for all three indictments what are the witnesses he regards as
21 absolutely essential.
22 I can't help but observe that the witness intending to come now is
23 going to last, it is expected, over five hours in chief, the next witness
24 12 hours in chief, and we are still not out of Kosovo. There are plainly
25 witnesses who the accused regards as essential and who are going to take a
1 very great deal of time. There may also be international witnesses whom
2 he has applied to call and who may come and who will themselves take a
3 great deal of time, and our concerns include that if witnesses of marginal
4 value are called now and at a later stage in the programme of the accused
5 calling witnesses he applies to call witnesses who he says are essential
6 and who would seem to be more important, then it may be more difficult for
7 the Chamber to resist an application for an extension.
8 We, when we were aware of our timetable limitations, kept the
9 Chamber notified of what we regarded as our must-be-called witnesses. We
10 re-jigged the witness list as time developed, moving witnesses from
11 category A or priority 1 to a lower category, and the Chamber and accused
12 and the amici were in a position to know how things stood because we had a
13 settled intention, of course, to comply with the Chamber's order.
14 Might it now be sensible at some stage to get from the accused a
15 list of those witnesses who he regards as absolutely essential, for we
16 might find that they would consume the remainder of the time available to
18 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you.
19 [Trial Chamber confers]
20 JUDGE ROBINSON: We'll consider the matter.
21 Mr. Milosevic, did you want -- unless you wanted to say something
22 in reply to that, we will hear your next witness, Mr. Paponjak.
23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Just briefly. I do not have before
24 me this document that Mr. Nice was looking at, but I know that Henning
25 Hensch, a German policeman who was a member of the Verification Commission
1 in Kosovo, the fact that he was on various missions in Bosnia before that
2 does not mean that's going to testify about that. He will testify only
3 marginally. He's a brief witness. He was a verifier in Kosovo. You had
4 the opportunity of hearing Hartwig, who was the head of the European
5 monitors. This was a man who was a member of the Verification Mission,
6 also a German - that happens to be a pure coincidence - so I thought it
7 would be necessary for him to be called.
8 As for what Mr. Nice said, that there are witnesses who will be
9 testifying longer, that is precisely to save time. Rather than call a
10 larger number of witnesses to testify about certain number of matters, I
11 call a smaller number of witnesses who then have to testify at greater
12 length in order to have a clear picture of what happened.
13 For example, the witness who we're calling today is the head of
14 the Secretariat of the Interior in Pec, covering a number of
15 municipalities. I'm not going to call all seven heads of Secretariats of
16 the Interior from Kosovo. I'm calling only one of them in order to see
17 the entirety of one secretariat.
18 The next witness, General Stevanovic, will then be testifying
19 about all of Kosovo and Metohija. So we take a secretariat in its
20 entirety and then we deal with all of Kosovo rather than spend more time
21 by calling several witnesses. That is why these witnesses have more
22 documents that will be tendered through them, and they will be testifying
23 for longer periods of time, but all of it in order to save time.
24 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Milosevic. We have your application in
25 relation to the witness Hensch, and we are considering it. In relation to
1 General Stevanovic, it occurs to the Chamber that you might provide a
2 little more information than you have done, than you have. In your 65 ter
3 you have references, the usual references to personal knowledge. For
4 example, the areas of the indictment in relation to which the witness will
5 testify would be very helpful. You have him scheduled for 12 hours.
6 That's very long, and it would help to streamline matters and to manage
7 the evidence better if some more information was provided.
8 Your next witness, then, is General Stevanovic -- sorry, is
9 Radovan Paponjak.
10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes.
11 [The witness entered court]
12 JUDGE ROBINSON: Let the witness make the declaration.
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak
14 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
15 JUDGE ROBINSON: You may sit.
16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.
17 WITNESS: RADOVAN PAPONJAK
18 [Witness answered through interpreter]
19 JUDGE ROBINSON: You may sit. And you may commence,
20 Mr. Milosevic.
21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Robinson.
22 Examined by Mr. Milosevic:
23 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Colonel.
24 A. Good morning, Mr. President.
25 Q. Could you please state very briefly where and when you were born
1 and what kind of education you've had.
2 A. I was born on the 1st of May, 1948, in Rudo. I completed
3 elementary school, secondary school, Teacher's College in Foca, then the
4 Academy of Pedagogy in Uzice, and in Belgrade I got a university degree at
5 the department for the resocialisation of persons in a social context.
6 Q. Where did you work?
7 A. I worked in the Secretariat of the Interior of the Republic of
8 Serbia. I started out as an ordinary policeman on the beat, and I ended
9 up as head of the municipal Secretariat of the Interior. Depending on the
10 work I did, I had different ranks.
11 Q. We have very little time. You had the rank of colonel when you
12 were head of the municipal Secretariat of the Interior; is that right?
13 A. Yes, that's right.
14 Q. We are going to move on to your professional activities straight
15 away in relation to Kosovo and Metohija. Tell me, what were your duties
16 at the Secretariat of the Interior in Pec from 1992 when you were assigned
17 to work there?
18 A. I was head of the department of the traffic police at the SUP in
19 Pec. I was in charge of organising and regulating traffic. That is
20 police work in this respect. Then also traffic related security, also
21 carried out by members of the traffic police; the organisation of
22 administrative affairs, meaning the registration of vehicles and the
23 issuing of drivers' licenses; then administration and inspection of
24 traffic; training candidates for driver's examinations; and also centres
25 for the technical examination of vehicles.
1 Q. In relation to all these duties, were you also -- were you in
2 charge of Pec only, the municipality of Pec only, or were you in charge of
3 those matters in other municipalities as well?
4 A. My headquarters was in Pec, and I was in charge of Pec, Djakovica,
5 Decani, Istok, and Klina; those municipalities respectively.
6 Q. So the Secretariat of the Interior in Pec covers Djakovica, Pec,
7 Istok and Klina?
8 A. Yes, that's the way it was at the time.
9 Q. Do you know what the structure of employees was in the municipal
10 Secretariat of the Interior in Pec?
11 A. If you meant the ethnic structure, the ethnic composition, there
12 were people with all ethnic backgrounds there; Serbs, Albanians, Muslims,
14 Q. Do you remember the names of Albanians who held some of the top
15 positions in Pec, if we can give that by way of an example?
16 A. The deputy head of state security was Deme Mulaj, an Albanian.
17 Also, there were a few operations officers in the state security. The
18 head of the department for communications, that's a very important
19 department, was Ahmetaj Skender, another Albanian. There were several
20 operations officers in the crime prevention police. I remember Hamdi Ram,
21 Kelmendi Enver. The commander of the police in Kijevo was Becir Gashi,
22 another Albanian. The deputy commander of the fire-fighting company was
23 an Albanian, Nikaj Barlo. There were policemen --
24 Q. All right, that will do, the examples that you can give us from
1 Colonel Paponjak, I'm going to read out paragraph 87 to you, which
2 states as follows. I'm not going to read all of it, but it says:
3 "Towards the end of 1990 and in 1991, thousands of Kosovo Albanian
4 doctors, teachers, professors, workers, police and civil servants --" I'm
5 emphasising police because I'm going to ask you about them only -- "were
6 dismissed from their positions."
7 Tell me, please, were Albanians dismissed from the service because
8 of their ethnic background? I'm not asking you for any general questions,
9 I'm asking you about policemen because you worked there.
10 A. No. That is simply incorrect. While I worked in Pec, I was
11 president of the disciplinary chamber, that is to say that is a council
12 that decides on the dismissal of policemen. Ethnic background was not a
13 precondition for admission or dismissal. There is a prescribed procedure
15 Q. All right. I understand that. I hope that that is common
16 knowledge. But specifically, you said now that you were president of the
17 disciplinary council that dealt with dismissals of policemen from work if
18 they violated their professional duties. How long did you do that, how
19 many years?
20 A. Throughout my stay there.
21 Q. All right. During your practice, how many Albanians were
22 dismissed while you were president of this disciplinary council?
23 A. Not a single one.
24 Q. Thank you, Colonel. And what about the employees in these
1 JUDGE BONOMY: Can I just be clear; what was the period that you
2 spent in office in Pec?
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] After I arrived there.
4 JUDGE BONOMY: I thought you said you went there in 1992. I was
5 just trying to be clear about the date.
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. I cannot give you the exact
7 date now when I was appointed president of the disciplinary council, but
8 that was soon after my arrival there. This is a well-known thing. I
9 mean, the term of office is four years.
10 JUDGE BONOMY: Yes, but was that after 1991 or was it -- were you
11 there during 1991?
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] After 1992.
13 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.
14 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
15 Q. Colonel, I asked you on to mention all the Albanians who were in
16 important positions, and that has to do with the period when you were
17 there, isn't that correct?
18 A. Yes, absolutely. I would not have known them had it not been from
19 that period.
20 Q. All right. You talked about technical centres related to traffic
21 and your duties as head of the traffic police for those five
22 municipalities. What about the employees in these centres? What was
23 their background?
24 A. Similar to that in the SUP of Pec; Serbs, Albanians, Muslims.
25 There were five of these centres, five. Three were socially owned and
1 with mixed ownership, and two were privately owned. The owner of one of
2 these in Istok was a Serb, and in the municipality of Klina, Latif
3 Kryeziu, an Albanian, owned the technical centre there. I remember his
4 name and surname because I knew him personally. There were Albanian
5 employees in the social centre, in the technical centre. Biluci Fatmir
6 [phoen], for example, was in that technical -- one of employees there.
7 Q. And as far as driving lessons are concerned and this entire
9 A. According to regulations, they are called centres for the training
10 of drivers, and there were 18 such centres. Two were socially owned, one
11 was of mixed ownership, and 15 were privately owned. Many of these
12 centres were owned by Albanians, then other centres were owned by Serbs,
13 Muslims, Roma. That was not a criterion in granting licenses for these
14 technical centres for the examination of vehicles. There was simply
15 certain criteria that had to be met. Whoever would meet these criteria
16 would, as a matter of course, get a licence to run that kind of centre,
17 and such persons had to meet certain requirements.
18 My department and I were supposed to see whether they abided by
19 regulations, by the law, and nobody meddled in their affairs in terms of
20 who they would employ.
21 Q. Who were the instructors?
22 A. The instructors were persons who were licensed to be driving
23 instructors. There were Serbs, Albanians, Romas. I can give you from
24 memory perhaps some of the centres that employed Albanians. For example,
25 Lloxha. The owner was Qazim Shala. Marlboro was owned by Faik Raci.
1 Orion was owned by the Haskaj brothers. Vem was owned by Lukaj Xhafer.
2 Q. All right, you don't have to give us any more names.
3 A. Well, I cannot remember all of them, perhaps, but I do know all of
4 them because I worked with all of them.
5 Q. Thank you, Colonel. Tell me, was there any discrimination against
6 Albanians when personal documents were issued and when various decisions
7 were supposed to be reached by the municipal secretariat in Pec?
8 A. No, there was no discrimination whatsoever. While I worked there,
9 I made every effort to have all citizens be equal before the law and to
10 apply regulations strictly to the letter. All those who met certain
11 requirements would receive appropriate documents or decisions, and those
12 who did not meet the requirements could not get these decisions or
13 documents, regardless of whether they were Serbs or Albanians.
14 Later on during the course of my work, the organisation was as
15 follows: Citizens could submit their requests at the centre for the
16 technical examination of vehicles - they didn't even have to come to the
17 SUP - and they would get the appropriate documents. They would go there,
18 they would submit their requests, then the person from the technical
19 centre would go to the SUP, do whatever was necessary, and then the
20 applicant would get documents he needed.
21 I remember that even among the Serbs, people thought that it was
22 the Albanians who were favoured. One Serb launched a complaint with the
23 Ministry of the Interior of the Republic of Serbia in Belgrade because it
24 was in charge in the second instance. I was in charge in the first
25 instance. And in this complaint, the person said that we did not allow
1 him to operate his own technical centre whereas the Albanian Latif Kryeziu
2 was granted this possibility as soon as he submitted such a request. Of
3 course this was not a justified complaint because he did not meet the
4 necessary requirements. A record was made of all the requirements that he
5 was supposed to meet and did not, whereas the Albanian, Kryeziu, had
6 simply met all the necessary requirements.
7 Therefore, I'm not aware of a single case of discrimination, and I
8 did not have any complaints from citizens. At every desk there was
9 information as to what was necessary, what documents were needed in order
10 to obtain other documents, and also there were deadlines in terms of how
11 much time was needed to obtain a particular document, and persons could
12 ask by telephone or directly, and my telephone was there, too, and they
13 could address me in person.
14 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Paponjak. Next question.
15 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
16 Q. How would you qualify the security situation in Kosovo and
17 Metohija at the moment when you joined the service in Pec?
18 A. When I joined the service in Pec, the situation was relatively
19 quiet. I think I can say it was quieter than in other areas of the SFRY.
20 Q. Did you have friends or colleagues among Albanians? You came
21 there as a chief. Did you find friends among Albanians, associates?
22 A. The situation I found was that there were firmly established links
23 of friendships -- of friendship between Serbs and Albanians, Serb and
24 Albanian families, and I soon found friends there, too, perhaps because of
25 my job and my work, which was very positively assessed by my superiors and
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 competent authorities.
2 I met with Albanians frequently, socialised with them, had drinks
3 and meals together with them in both Serb and Albanian establishments. To
4 this day, I have a considerable number of friends among Albanians. I
5 still talk to them on the phone and still see them. Unfortunately, I can
6 only see them on the territory of Serbia, not in Kosovo and Metohija,
7 because I am not able to go there any more, just like many Serbs can't.
8 Q. Was it only shop talk or did you discuss other subjects as well?
9 A. No, we discussed everything, every possible subject; life as such.
10 It was a very difficult time. It was the time when Yugoslavia was
11 breaking up. In some areas of Yugoslavia there was fighting. It weighed
12 very heavily on people's minds. They were thinking of how it would
13 reflect on Kosovo and Metohija, what would happen there. This thought
14 never left either Serbs or Albanians.
15 Q. And what did those people tell you about the political situation
16 when you talked to them?
17 A. They were concerned. Some who were close to me told me that the
18 future they were seeing was not very bright. They were telling me that
19 certain forces in Kosovo and Metohija had decided that the time was coming
20 from them -- for them to achieve some of their aspirations regarding the
21 independence of Kosovo. They told me that Serbs have a wrong
22 interpretation concerning the establishment of a Greater Albania. They
23 told me that the idea was to first create a Republic of Kosovo and later
24 annex some parts of Montenegro, Macedonia, some parts of what they called
25 Eastern Kosovo, that is some parts of Serbia, Southern Serbia, and only
1 later join this republic with Albania, not to have Albania annex this
2 Kosovo. In their vision, Kosovo was the pivot, the linchpin of this
4 Q. Very well, Colonel. Tell me, was there any terrorist activity in
5 the zone of your competence in the period before 1996?
6 A. Yes, there was. There was terrorist activity, and there were
7 terrorist acts even before 1996. I believe it began sometime in 1995,
8 perhaps a bit earlier, but I certainly remember that there was terrorist
9 activity in 1995.
10 Q. Can you remember a particular incident?
11 A. The reason I remember 1995 is that I remember a particular
12 policeman, Predrag Ivanovic. I believe it was in early 1995, in the month
13 of March, I think, that he was going back home from work when he was shot
14 in the back. He was hit in the spine and in the head. He was very
15 seriously injured. The attackers had fled. He is disabled to this day,
16 tied to his wheelchair, and I still see him occasionally.
17 Two months after that, I believe it was in May, two explosive
18 devices that had been planted in Junik exploded. Junik was a settlement
19 specially built for Serb refugees from Albania.
20 Sometime later, in the summer, August perhaps, a police station in
21 Rznic, a police section in Rznic near Decani was attacked, and two
22 policemen were injured, Agim Hadrija, and Ljubomir Ristic.
23 Q. Very well, Colonel. So two policemen were wounded. As far as I
24 can discern from the names, one was Albanian, the other was Serb.
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. All these attacks were unprovoked. This first man was going home
2 from work when he was shot, then the police station was attacked, and
3 bombs exploded in this refugee camp. There was no provocation, no reason
4 for these attacks.
5 A. Yes. These were very perfidious attacks, totally unprovoked.
6 Q. What would you say? Why was it that it was policemen who were
7 refugees that were the targets of these attacks?
8 A. That was an aspect of our job. The role of the police is to
9 protect the personal safety and the property of the citizens, and it is
10 quite normal that the first target of attack should be the police. In
11 this case involving refugees from Albania, the idea was to show them that
12 they were not welcome in this area and to prevent other Serbs from coming.
13 Q. How did you and your colleagues assess some common features of
14 these attacks, if any? How did you establish them?
15 A. One could notice straight away that these incidents were atypical
16 for the general picture of crime. There was no direct provocation or
17 reason. The attacks were perfidious and would become even more perfidious
18 in the future after that. It was usually with the use of explosives,
19 especially in the area of Pec. A lot of attacks involved the throwing of
20 hand grenades and the planting of explosive devices during the night when
21 the victims were off guard. Another feature was that these attacks had
22 all aspects of organised activity against specific targets.
23 Q. You mentioned all these incidents, and I would like to ask you,
24 how did you find about them? Did you learn of them as soon as they
25 happened or later?
1 A. In the greatest number of cases I would learn immediately, because
2 in the greatest number of areas the target was a policeman, and we were
3 placed in a certain degree of alert. Our duty, one of our duties was to
4 secure various facilities and buildings against organised attacks in a
5 broad area.
6 Q. That much is clear to me. So you would learn immediately of every
7 incident that happened.
8 Are you aware of any terrorist activity in the area of Pec in
10 A. Yes, I am. For instance, in February 1996, at the very beginning
11 of the year, we had an attack carried out against a building housing
12 refugees from the Republic of Serbian Krajina. The attack happened in the
13 evening, and in this case, too, an explosive device exploded. We were
14 placed in a state of alert.
15 We learnt that a simultaneous attack took place in Pristina and in
16 Kosovska Mitrovica against buildings of the similar purpose, housing
17 refugees. So after that, we had to secure all buildings we thought were
18 at risk.
19 Q. Thank you, Colonel. Do you know of any terrorist attacks -- in
20 fact, do you know of the terrorist attack against the Cakor cafe in
22 A. That happened sometime in spring 1996, in April.
23 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic, to what areas of the indictment
24 does this evidence relate?
25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Robinson, this is relevant to
1 the entire situation in Kosovo and Metohija and the evolution of terrorist
2 attacks and crimes committed against policemen and civilians and
3 everything that followed. It goes to the whole background of the
4 situation in Kosovo. We are dealing here with one Secretariat of the
5 Interior that covered five municipalities, but it is relevant to the
6 entirety of the events involved.
7 JUDGE ROBINSON: Its relevance -- if there is any relevance, it's
8 of a very general nature, Mr. Milosevic. You have not been able to
9 identify -- or you have not identified any specific paragraph to which
10 this relates. I mean, to say that it's background material is really not
11 sufficient unless you can pinpoint a specific paragraph to which it
13 I'm not going to allow any more questioning along this line,
14 because we have had enough background material in relation to Kosovo. So
15 bring the witness to evidence that is relevant to the charges that you
17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Robinson, in what you call the
18 indictment and the charges against me, there is a whole list of casualties
19 and victims wherein every death of an Albanian is ascribed to Serbian
20 forces. The wording used is "the forces of SFRY and Serbia" throughout
21 the text, and I'm trying to establish through this witness, among other
22 things, the way terrorist groups treated Albanians who tried to lead a
23 normal life, how many victims there were among this part of the
25 This witness will be speaking about Istok municipality. He will
1 be speaking about the bombing of the correctional centre of Dubrava. In
2 this indictment, among other things, I'm charged with the killing of
3 prisoners in this correctional centre in Dubrava. We will have to go
4 through that in detail to see what actually happened.
5 So there are many, many things that go to the reality of what
6 happened as opposed to the fabricated accusations against the authorities
7 in Serbia.
8 JUDGE ROBINSON: But as I said, Mr. Milosevic, bring the witness
9 to relevant evidence. Let us get beyond your stock answer.
10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Robinson, I hope that you are
11 able to see, on the basis of what the witness has been saying, that the
12 attacks were not caused or provoked by anything, that they were underhand,
13 perfidious attacks on people, on policemen, on civilians, quite simply
14 because they were Serbs. Refugees from Albania were attacked. A
15 policeman on his way home was attacked. A cafe was blown up. So these
16 are terrorist activities that have the goals that I've explained to you,
17 and the witness is testifying about this, and you can see that he confirms
18 it, confirms these facts on the basis of his testimony. But let me move
19 on --
20 JUDGE ROBINSON: Terrorist activities by themselves are not
21 relevant unless they relate to a specific charge in the indictment. We
22 have been through this before.
23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I continue, Mr. Robinson?
24 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. You can continue, but it has to be relevant
1 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
2 Q. Colonel, what was the relationship of the terrorists towards the
3 Albanians who were ordinary citizens? We often used to refer to them as
4 "loyal citizens," that is to say people who quite simply lived a normal
5 life in that part of the world. What was the relationship towards them,
6 the attitude towards them?
7 A. The terrorists attacked them too. They did their best to change
8 their behaviour, to discipline them, and to turn them around and to entice
9 them to their side and to have them support them. And there were many
10 cases of the killing of Albanians precisely because they worked in state
11 organs or publicly socialised with Serbs. That happened in 1997 and in
12 1998. Things like that were going on, and I can quote examples if you
13 desire and if the Trial Chamber will allow me to do so.
14 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic, now that would be relevant if
15 there are charges in the indictment or paragraphs in the indictment which
16 allege that Serb forces attacked and killed Albanians, and your response
17 to that was that the Albanians were not killed by Serb forces but, rather,
18 by -- by KLA, the KLA terrorists. That is how it would become relevant,
19 but not in some very general and overall manner, because an indictment is
20 a specific -- specific instrument.
21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I understand you, Mr. Robinson.
22 However, as you can see, there is a sort of diagram, plan, schematic
23 according to which this terrorist organisation that referred to itself as
24 the KLA, and you were able to see that during the testimony of
25 Mr. Hartwig, who was the head of the observer mission of the European
1 Union, and they were terrorising the Albanian population in Albanian
2 villages, and killed people, kidnapped people, and did what they could do
3 harness the Albanian population and place them under their control and
4 terror. And all the people who were in Kosovo and Metohija and all the
5 casualties and victims are being ascribed to some sort of Serb terror and
6 arbitrary behaviour and crimes and so on, whereas the opposite is true.
7 The situation was quite the opposite.
8 So we're not talking about individual charges with names and
9 surnames. Of course there's that too. There is that as well. But we're
10 talking about a general situation which was an ongoing one. And there
11 were more Albanians killed in 1998 than there were Serbs, by the KLA, and
12 there are facts and figures to bear that out.
13 JUDGE ROBINSON: Bring us to 1998.
14 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
15 Q. Let's just clear one point up before we do so. Colonel, tell us,
16 please, to the best of your recollections and knowledge, from what time
17 onwards did the terrorist organisation the KLA act publicly? I don't mean
18 publicly in the sense of conflicts, but openly by making proclamations and
19 saying that they had in fact committed certain actions? When did they go
20 public, to the best of your knowledge?
21 A. Well, I've known about this since 1997, the end of 1997, in my
22 particular area. That's when they began to appear in public.
23 Q. What do you mean when you say "public"?
24 A. It means they were appearing in uniforms. You could see them
25 armed. They said that they were the popular army, the national army of
1 Kosovo. They said that about themselves. They were exercising control,
2 first of all in ethnically pure villages that were further away from the
3 towns, and then they moved closer into the towns. And finally, at the end
4 of 1997, they started, in the afternoon hours and early evening hours, to
5 exercise control over the roads. They would stop vehicles moving along
6 those roads and exert control there. And they mistreated Serbs and told
7 them not to use those roads any more. It was the Klina-Srbica
8 communications lines, and in the evening they would exercise control over
9 those roads and those communications lines. And the Serbs would come to
10 us and report that they had been mistreated, that they had been stopped,
11 that they -- there was -- they had hand grenades and other weapons, and
12 there were among those examples there was the families of Asanin and
13 Bakic. Sixteen members of those families coming back from the Devic
14 monastery one night in mid-December when they were stopped and Jugoslav
15 Asanin's vehicle was riddled with bullets. There were ten children in the
16 vehicle. They kept them there for ten hours and then they let them go but
17 told them not to go along that road again because that whole area was
18 allegedly under the control of the popular army or national army of
19 Kosovo, as they put it.
20 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] There's always misunderstanding in
21 translations when we say in our language "rucni bacac," a hand-held
22 launcher. It is a hand-held rocket launcher, in fact. A launcher.
23 "Hand-held rocket launcher" is the translation. There was mention of a
24 hand grenade whereas in fact the translation is a hand-held rocket
25 launcher. When the Colonel said what they were armed with, they were
1 armed with automatic rifles and hand-held rocket launchers.
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. That is a barrel that is
3 placed on the shoulder and it is a hand-held rocket launcher.
4 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
5 Q. The literal translation is "hand mortar" but it is a hand-held
6 rocket launcher, although it's difficult to translate it literally, but
7 that's the equivalent of what it is in our language.
8 You have just told us that they appeared publicly and openly, and
9 from what you said, they appeared where there was no police, in areas
10 where there was no police, that is to say in the further-off Albanian
11 villages and so on.
12 Now, were there any attacks on the police in the Pec area in 1997,
13 for instance?
14 A. Yes. Yes, there were several attacks, and I am going to talk
15 about three attacks because they were police stations that had previously
16 been attacked. The one in Rznic, for example, on two occasions in August
17 and September 1997, Rznic station was attacked. In August the attack was
18 refuted but in September they launched that police department very
19 vigorously and the fighting went on for quite some time, and a policeman
20 was killed. His name was Dragic Davidovic, and two other policemen were
21 wounded on that occasion. They sustained serious injuries. And in the
22 clash a terrorist, one of the terrorists was killed too. I think his name
23 was Jocaj. And another police department was also attacked and that was
24 the Klincina police station, and that attack occurred in mid-October 1997
25 in the evening, during the night, and this attack was launched by a group
1 led by Kelmendi and Krasniqi. Qerim Krasniqi -- Adrian Krasniqi and Qerim
2 Kelmendi, they were the leaders of the groups that launched most of the
3 attacks in the surrounding parts of Pec. And in refuting the attack, the
4 leader of the group, Krasniqi, was killed. Adrian Krasniqi, as I say, was
5 an intimate associate of Ramush Haradinaj, for example, and a large-scale
6 funeral was organised and more than 15.000 Albanians attended the funeral.
7 They took their oaths of loyalty there and recruited new men, and the
8 133rd Brigade of the Liberation Army of Kosovo, the KLA, was given the
9 name of the 133rd Brigade of the KLA and it took the name of Adrian
10 Krasniqi. And part of the Kosovo Protection Corps now carries that same
11 name. Ramush Haradinaj wrote about it in very positive terms and
12 glorified the group, although he was a terrorist who at the time attacked
13 peaceable, law abiding citizens. And he was killed during this attack on
14 the police station of the SUP of Pec, that is to say the Ministry of the
15 Interior of Serbia, one of its departments.
16 Q. So that particular police station was the one in Klincina, was it?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. So they attacked the police station there, and during that attack
19 the police -- some policemen were killed in defending their police
20 station; is that what happened?
21 A. Yes, precisely.
22 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic, stop a minute. I have to consider
23 with my brothers the relevance of this evidence.
24 [Trial Chamber confers]
25 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Kay?
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 MR. KAY: Yes. Your Honours, paragraph 93 of the indictment,
2 which alleges: "In mid-1996, the KLA began launching attacks primarily
3 targeting Serbian police forces." We've heard evidence of that through
4 this witness.
5 And the allegation after that, which is an allegation that has
6 been emphasised by the Prosecution throughout the trial, "Thereafter, and
7 throughout 1997, Serbian police forces responded with forceful operations
8 against suspected KLA bases and supporters in Kosovo."
9 In fact, the Prosecution often exceed that language when they
10 cross-examine and deal with these issues.
11 The evidence we just heard from this witness was that they were
12 defending the police station, that some policemen were killed defending
13 their police station, and Your Honour interjected. So on the issue of
14 proportionate response to what was taking place in the public life and
15 civil life of those in Kosovo at the time, this can be material evidence
16 if crafted and directed towards the issue of the proportionality of
17 response to attacks.
18 JUDGE BONOMY: That's certainly not the way in which the
19 examination's being conducted. The examination's being conducted to prove
20 what's already averred by the Prosecution. And with time at stake it
21 seems such a pointless exercise to concentrate on this instead of getting
22 to the meat of the material on which the accused says the witness can
23 speak directly, such as Dubrava Prison, things that really matter to the
24 indictment rather than to the political issues which the accused might
25 also have in his mind.
1 MR. KAY: Yes, Your Honour.
2 JUDGE KWON: And events in Istok.
3 MR. KAY: Yes, Your Honour. I'm aware of that.
4 [Trial Chamber confers]
5 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Milosevic, Mr. Kay has come to your
6 rescue again, but it is, nonetheless, background material. You should
7 bring the witness, as Judge Bonomy says, to the meat of the issues. You
8 have charges relating to Istok. That's paragraph (F). On page 29, you
9 have charges relating to Dubrava Prison, and the witness can testify to
10 those matters which are far more central to the indictment than these
11 events in 1997. And you have scheduled the witness for five hours, and
12 this witness could be completed today if you manage the -- his testimony
13 efficiently. So come to the central issues.
14 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I shall try and focus on the
16 information given by the witness and the documents compiled by the
18 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
19 Q. But before we do so, what was quoted a moment ago, that, "In
20 mid-1996, the KLA organised attacks primarily aimed at the police forces
21 of Serbia," and then, Colonel, it says from that time on, from mid-1996
22 and throughout 1997, the police forces of Serbia retaliated with forceful
23 action where they assumed that the KLA had their bases and their
24 sympathisers in Kosovo. Now -- and supporters in Kosovo. That is
25 paragraph 93.
1 Do you know that there were any such actions with the police
2 retaliating against the KLA bases and supporters in Kosovo?
3 A. No, there was no such operation at all.
4 Q. Thank you. That is enough, to save time. So there was none of
5 this. And what it says here is incorrect; is that right?
6 A. That's right.
7 Q. Thank you, Colonel. Now, the Secretariat of the Interior of Pec
8 drafted a series of reports for the area under its authority; is that
10 A. Yes.
11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] And this information and these
12 reports, Mr. Robinson, and please bear this in mind, refer to the period
13 from the 1st of January, 1998, until the 1st of June, 2001. That is the
14 material period.
15 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
16 Q. Now, Colonel, that information, those reports, are they to be
17 found in this binder here and the tabs?
18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I don't know whether you have all
19 received the tabs. I'm sure you have them next to your seats or tables.
20 Take up the binders, please, the first binder, in fact. And you
21 will find them in tab 1, 2, 3, 4, 6, 7, and 9.
22 MR. NICE: Your Honours, as to these documents, I better make our
23 position clear. We received a bundle of originals last week on the 26th.
24 They weren't divided or tabbed in any way. At that time, I think there
25 were no translations provided. We worked on the documents so far as
1 possible with B/C/S speakers, but it wasn't possible to achieve very much
2 nor was it possible to know precisely how the documents were going to be
3 ordered and so on.
4 We received the tabbed versions last night, and I understand that
5 at the moment there are some 17 or possibly 18 of the tabs that have been
6 translated into English of a total of -- is it really 175 tabs? Some --
7 over 170 tabs.
8 Now, that's obviously difficult or impossible for us to deal with
9 today. We're reluctant to seek to exclude material that may either, A,
10 help the accused; or B, enable us, when we can explore it, to help the
11 Chamber by provision of a full picture of events, but the present position
12 is very difficult for us.
13 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you, Mr. Nice.
14 Mr. Milosevic, let us just deal very quickly with this, the tabs,
15 another procedural matter. 175 tabs and only a tenth of them translated.
16 What is the explanation for that? This goes to the efficient management
17 of the case.
18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, I'll give you a very simple
19 explanation. However, before I give this explanation, could you please
20 have a look at this. I hope that you have a survey of all these tabs, and
21 there is a separate heading "Comments," when the documents were submitted
22 for translation.
23 Now, whether it's been translated or not is really a question of
24 time, Mr. Robinson. I am aware of the fact that you do not take into
25 account the problem of time when I am concerned, but you should take it
1 into account when the translators are concerned.
2 JUDGE ROBINSON: There is no basis for saying that. That is
3 wholly unacceptable to say that the Chamber does not take account of time
4 where you're concerned.
5 But a quick glance at these comments shows that most of these were
6 submitted on the 20th or 21st of April. Today is the 4th of May. So
7 that's a period of two weeks, and you know that that is not enough time,
8 Mr. Milosevic.
9 I have made inquiries, and I've been told that you get special
10 treatment, most favoured treatment in the translation section of the
11 Tribunal. There is no other accused that gets as favourable treatment as
12 you do. But to send so many documents to the Translation Unit a mere two
13 weeks before the witness is supposed to testify is not good management.
14 They should be sent at least a month before, and we have discussed that.
15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Robinson, maximum efforts were
16 made and measures taken for the witness to receive these documents in good
17 time. I even have a certificate from the Ministry of the Interior, the
18 secretariat in Pec, dated the 18th of April, and it can be seen from here
19 that it was only on the 18th of April that these documents were submitted
20 to the witness. And then the relevant documents are mentioned, various
21 tables, surveys, lists of documents that were handed over to the witness,
22 everything that has to do with the Pec secretariat.
23 The last time I showed you on the ELMO a certificate stating that
24 some documents were requested in January 2004, and they were only made
25 available towards the end of March this year, so with a delay of 14 months
1 altogether. Therefore, evidently there are problems of this kind. So I
2 hope that any rational person has to take these problems into account.
3 JUDGE ROBINSON: So what you're now saying, Mr. Milosevic, is that
4 the explanation is that your request for the documents from the relevant
5 ministries was not complied with in sufficient time for you to submit the
6 documents for translation. I have a note here which shows that 68
7 documents were submitted for translation on the 21st of April and the 2nd
8 of May and accepted for translation with deadlines of the 2nd, the 9th,
9 and 23rd of May.
10 We will have to consider what to do with these, how to proceed
11 with so many documents untranslated.
12 [Trial Chamber confers]
13 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic, you have flooded us with documents
14 here. What we'll do is we'll consider the admission of the documents on
15 the basis of their relevance, and if we consider them relevant, then those
16 that are untranslated we'll mark for identification. I take into account
17 that the Prosecution is not objecting, and I note that a number -- in
18 relation to a number of the documents you were told that -- not to submit
19 them because there was no capacity to translate those documents on time.
20 So let us proceed singly. We'll give a number to the binder.
21 What will that be?
22 THE REGISTRAR: It will be D297.
23 JUDGE ROBINSON: D297. For example, Mr. Milosevic, relevance will
24 have to be established, obviously, in relation to those documents that
25 relate to 2000, 2001, and 2002. So let us proceed on that basis.
1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Robinson. I hope
2 that we will manage to deal with all of this very successfully. However,
3 I hope that you bear in mind the fact that I am also flooded with
5 If you look at the information available, you will see that I did
6 not omit a single day in terms of work. I either receive witnesses or I
7 receive documents. As you know, I work along parallel lines. I receive
8 documents and I talk to witnesses. However, it is impossible before
9 reviewing the relevant documents to talk to witnesses to see what the
10 relevance of the documents concerned is and also what is the volume of
11 documents accompanying a particular witness.
12 JUDGE BONOMY: That's simply because you don't use your resources
14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right, Mr. Bonomy. My resources
15 are a certain number of hours per day. I cannot have more hours per day
16 than there are within a day, and I am my own resource.
17 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
18 Q. Colonel, does this contain information from the 1st of January,
19 1998, until the 1st of June, 2001?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. On whose orders were these reports compiled?
22 A. At the orders of the Ministry of the Interior. The methodology
23 required, that is.
24 Q. What was the reason for writing these reports?
25 A. After withdrawing from Kosovo and Metohija, documents were taken
1 out under rather difficult conditions in terms of transportation
2 restrictions and insufficient personnel. The Pec documentation was
3 transported to Kragujevac and put in warehouses but not in proper order.
4 They were just piled up as they were unloaded from vehicles. Then these
5 documents had to be brought in proper order.
6 These documents that were compiled while we lived and worked
7 there, these documents had to be found, categorised, put in appropriate
8 files. If there were no files, then new files had to be opened, and then
9 all of this had to be tied up to a particular case. It was only then that
10 proper work could start.
11 The objective of this work was to create a basis to register all
12 these cases in a proper way, to round up all the cases, to take measures
13 to clarify these events, all the crimes concerned, and to find the
14 perpetrators of these crimes and to make the necessary submissions to the
15 Office of the Prosecutor.
16 Q. All right. Let us deal first with this information or report in
17 relation to armed conflicts in the territory of the SUP of Pec in the
18 period from the 1st of January, 1998, until the 1st of June, 2001. It is
19 in tab 1. From 1.1 to 1.6, that is.
20 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Let me just explain something to
21 you, gentlemen. This tab number 1 is a comprehensive piece of information
22 from the Ministry of Interior in Pec. My associates inform me, however,
23 that upon the request of the translation service, it had to be subdivided
24 into a few parts. That is why it is all tab 1 but from 1.1 to 1.6.
25 However, it is a single document which I have in the original here as
1 handed over to me by the witness. And here the document was subdivided in
2 six different tabs.
3 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
4 Q. Let us just deal with one more question. Are you the signatory of
5 this piece of information, this report?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. In addition to having signed this report as the chief of the
8 secretariat of Pec, did you take part in its elaboration?
9 A. Yes, from the beginning to the end. I was in charge of this
10 within the Pec secretariat, and I took part in the work involved. I had
11 many of these documents in my own hand and I dealt with them.
12 Q. Do you have any immediate knowledge about the events that this
13 report speaks of?
14 A. I have immediate, direct knowledge of some of these events because
15 I was an observer or participant.
16 Q. You said "some events." And what about those events where you do
17 not have any direct knowledge? Did you learn about them through official
18 reports that you received on the basis of the office you held?
19 A. Yes. That is within the scope of the regulations governing the
20 Ministry of the Interior. Every morning there are working meetings that
21 are held, and the heads of all departments take part in these meetings.
22 Security related matters are discussed at these meetings, and events from
23 the previous period are looked at, and then agendas for that day and the
24 following day are established in terms of what should be done.
25 Q. Thank you. During the proofing, you told me that this document
1 bears the heading "Information on security related events with lethal
2 consequences as a result of armed conflicts in the territory of the SUP
3 Pec in the period from the 1st of January, 1998, to the 1st of June,
4 2001." You said that it is not very precise.
5 A. Yes. It's rather clumsy too. Security related events with lethal
6 consequences differ. Lethal consequences can follow in different ways.
7 It would be more correct to call it "Information about security related
8 events with lethal consequences at the time of armed conflicts in the
9 territory of the SUP of Pec in the period from the 1st of January, 1998,
10 to the 1st of June, 2001," because this includes all events with lethal
11 consequences that took place in that period, regardless of whether they
12 are related to armed conflicts or not.
13 For example, there are natural deaths in hospitals, then also
14 there are drownings in rivers, suicides that were established beyond any
15 reasonable doubt. However, they were included in this paper in order to
16 have a final figure. This was an attempt to have a final figure of all
17 the lethal consequences at the time, the number of corpses involved, and
18 information as to where the said persons were buried.
19 Q. All right. It would be precise to say with lethal consequences at
20 the time between the 1st of January, 1998, until the 1st of June, 2001?
21 A. Absolutely.
22 Q. So this includes all information involving loss of life,
23 regardless of whether it is related to armed conflicts or not.
24 A. Absolutely.
25 Q. Just tell me, what does this particular mark mean? What does
1 A/III mean? It appears on the front page and later on also when the file
2 is set out.
3 A. The documents that we have before us are one part of the dossier
4 on Kosovo and Metohija made in the secretariat. It includes documents
5 from other SUPs in the territory of Kosovo. This dossier contains several
6 chapters related to a variety of subjects. The letter A means that
7 incidents involving loss of life are concerned. This Roman III means that
8 it comes from the SUP of Pec.
9 Q. Thank you very much. We've clarified this. I wanted absolute
10 precision here because Mr. Kwon asked a couple of days ago what this mark
11 on a certain document means. So A means involving loss of life, and Roman
12 III means coming from the SUP of Pec.
13 A. Some letters mean loss of Serb life, some marks mean loss of
14 Serbian life, and III means coming from the SUP of Pec.
15 Q. So what kind of information is contained here?
16 A. This is the kind of basic document that we call a brief. It
17 contains a general survey that should inform a person who holds it for the
18 first time in their hands of the general trends and the general situation
19 prevailing at the time.
20 Q. What is the correlation between the textual parts of this brief
21 and the other parts?
22 A. The textual part is made on the basis of the other parts; lists
23 and tables. There may be certain discrepancies between the two depending
24 on the time in which each of the parts was compiled, but these
25 discrepancies are minor. They're not important.
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 Security matters are of such nature that you may find about
2 something subsequently to the event, and you can update the list or the
3 table without updating the text.
4 Q. How do you subdivide these terrorist acts and the loss of life
5 involved in this brief?
6 A. Terrorist activity must be divided into several periods. The
7 first period is terrorist activity prior to 1998; that is, from the
8 beginning of the 1990s until approximately 1998.
9 The second period is the escalation of terrorism in the course of
10 1998, which is a fact often neglected.
11 The following period is the period of KVM presence in Kosovo; and
12 the period after that is the NATO aggression against Kosovo in 1999; and
13 the last period is post-NATO aggression.
14 JUDGE ROBINSON: It's time to take the first break. We will
15 adjourn for 20 minutes.
16 --- Recess taken at 10.35 a.m.
17 --- On resuming at 10.59 a.m.
18 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic, please continue.
19 THE INTERPRETER: No microphone.
20 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
21 Q. Colonel, I will now ask you a couple of questions that deal with
22 what is written in the text of this document, tab 1.1.
23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I would like to draw your attention,
24 gentlemen, that the witness is testifying to all this, whereas the
25 document only corroborates his testimony. We had the same situation when
1 General Ivasov was testifying and you asked what the documents were about.
2 So I'm pointing out that the testimony of the witness is supported by tab
4 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
5 Q. This deals with various forms of terrorist activity that Albanian
6 separatists resorted to throughout that time in 1990s and that you were
7 able to establish in your area of the SUP of Pec. What forms of terrorist
8 activity do we have here?
9 A. In this initial period, their intention was to show to the world
10 that their fundamental human rights are being violated in Kosovo. For
11 instance, workers left work in an orchestrated manner and tried to show
12 that they had been dismissed. For instance, a number of Albanians would
13 simply abandon their workplaces and claim that it was -- that they were
14 dismissed because they were Albanians.
15 Furthermore, they organised a parallel system of schooling. In
16 existing schoolhouses, they organised their own system of education and
17 claimed that they were excluded from regular schools. Then they organised
18 their separate police force, saying that they had been dismissed from the
19 SUPs in Kosovo.
20 Before they organised separate schools, they staged a scandal
21 involving mass poisoning of pupils allegedly on ethnic grounds. It was
22 later proved that it was all orchestrated by the separatist movement and
23 had nothing to do with poisoning.
24 Q. What can you say about these terrorist groups that began to be set
25 up in the early 1990s?
1 A. Those were smaller terrorist groups, so-called troikas. They
2 would move across the terrain in threesomes, in civilian clothing.
3 JUDGE KWON: Excuse me. Mr. Milosevic, I can't follow what
4 documents we are dealing with now.
5 JUDGE ROBINSON: Are we dealing with tab 1?
6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I'm only asking this witness a
7 number of questions that relate to the textual part of tab 1.1, and then
8 we will move through the other tabs. We have lists, tables, numbers of
10 JUDGE ROBINSON: Put the first page of tab 1 on the ELMO so that
11 we can have a translation of the heading.
12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] My impression is that this is the
13 wrong page, the wrong page of tab 1.1.
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Correct.
15 JUDGE KWON: The ELMO is not working at the moment. The index we
16 have now says that it should be the list of identified persons starved to
18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] On the basis of the list I have here
19 and that has been provided to you, too, tab 1 is a brief on security
20 related events involving loss of life that occurred in connection with
21 armed conflicts in the area of the SUP of Pec from the 1st of January,
22 1998, to the 1st of June, 2001. This brief begins with a textual part.
23 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] That is the way it is arranged in my
1 JUDGE KWON: But you said tab 1.1. Just making sure you point out
2 the exact tab number, please.
3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I said tab 1.
4 JUDGE ROBINSON: Tab 1, not tab 1.1.
5 Mr. Nice.
6 MR. NICE: Your Honour, the index has only been provided in
7 English about half an hour ago. I haven't thus far got a spare -- I
8 haven't got a copy myself. If anybody's got a spare English copy, I would
9 be grateful. It will take a few minutes for one to arrive for me.
10 JUDGE ROBINSON: Well, we have had the index for some time.
11 MR. NICE: In English to us only half an hour ago, apparently.
12 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. Why the discrimination against the
13 Prosecution, Mr. Milosevic?
14 JUDGE KWON: And while we are waiting, I have to note that this
15 exhibit number should be D298.
16 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. A copy is being made available to the
18 Is the ELMO working?
19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Nothing is working now.
20 JUDGE ROBINSON: Put tab 1 on the ELMO, the first page. It's not
21 working. All right.
22 Let's continue, Mr. Milosevic. The ELMO isn't working.
23 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
24 Q. So I am continuing with questions related to tab 1, this brief
25 that, as we see, you signed on the last page. Is this your signature,
1 Mr. Paponjak? The stamp, the signature, and all the rest.
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. What is contained in this brief? What does it say about the
4 location of training for terrorists?
5 A. That was organised in Albania and some other countries.
6 Q. Who performed the instruction?
7 A. Very well trained and paid mercenaries, Mujahedin, and other
9 Q. How did they procure arms and ammunition?
10 A. By smuggling from foreign countries, and in particular by
11 contraband from Albania after the breakdown of the Albanian army and the
12 looting of army depots. After that, a great quantity of weapons and
13 ammunition was brought in from there, but also from other countries. They
14 procured for the most part Chinese-made weapons and ammunition. For the
15 most part, as I say. And you could recognise when it was them who were
16 shooting because the sound was specific, peculiar.
17 Q. We are not going to go into that because you have already dealt
18 with various attacks and the targets of these attacks. It is all
19 contained in this brief, including Adrian Krasniqi to whom you referred
21 What organisational and other preparations were carried out for
22 terrorist activities beginning with 1997?
23 A. All the necessary measures were taken to prepare for a struggle in
24 the long-run. They supplied themselves with medical and other equipment
25 and placed it in storage facilities in various places. Those were remote
1 places, sometimes fortified, and they hid these supplies in those storage
3 Q. This brief also describes measures intended to make other
4 Albanians join them. Were you aware of this?
5 A. This was well known among the people, among the population. They
6 forced people to join them, especially younger men, using threats,
7 blackmail. Parents who did not wish their children to join the KLA could
8 make a payment to the KLA in exchange for their children. Those who did
9 not pay were subjected to punitive measures. These could range from
10 cautions to physical abuse, breaking of windows, arson of crops,
11 destroying of houses belonging to those families, culminating in physical
13 Q. All right. Tell me, did they treat differently Muslim Albanians
14 and Catholic Albanians? Did they make a distinction or did they treat
15 them equally?
16 A. The treatment was equal, with the only difference that Catholic
17 Albanians did not so readily join them. Catholic Albanians lived in
18 villages in which they were a majority, so the KLA found it more difficult
19 to access them and to influence them. Catholic Albanians resisted joining
21 Q. Tell me, how did it come about that terrorist training centres
22 were established?
23 A. As the movement gained strength and became more massive, they
24 formed centres and larger units. These terrorist centres were set up in
25 places that were ethnically pure, in which there were no Serbs. They
1 tried to find locations in which there were no police sections or outposts
2 so that they would feel safer in those centres, and they would place them
3 again in those areas that were ethnically pure.
4 Terrorist centres were, for instance, in the area of Rugova, which
5 is a very forbidding terrain.
6 Q. Can you tell me the locations in the area of the SUP of Pec?
7 A. In the area of Rugova, the Rugova canyon, in the Baranja canyon,
8 the area of Velika and Mala Jablanica, then in a suburb of Pec, Lloxha.
9 And all these centres were under the command of Ramush Haradinaj in the
10 so-called Metohija area, but they had their own local leaders in villages.
11 Q. What was the command structure of the KLA like?
12 A. The territory of Kosovo and Metohija was divided into several
13 zones. The area of Pec belonged to the operative zone of Dukagjini, as
14 they called it. Metohija, in other words. The commander was Ramush
15 Haradinaj. He had under his command several KLA brigades which were
16 deployed in the areas I already mentioned. Within the brigades there were
17 lower-ranking units. Furthermore, they had their own police force,
18 including Special Police Units called The Black Arm. The commander of
19 this Black Arm was Meto Krasniqi, who was nicknamed Meto Vranovci after
20 the village he was born in. A very large number of crimes was perpetrated
21 under his command and he perpetrated some himself.
22 Q. This name, The Black Arm, was linked to -- or Black Hand, a Serb
23 group, and you had information that that Black Hand existed as part of a
24 terrorist organisation; is that right?
25 A. The Black Hand was part of a terrorist organisation, and in our
1 area that was a unit which was commanded by Meto Krasniqi. We have
2 statements to that effect.
3 Q. Thank you, Colonel. Now, where was the security situation most
4 difficult within the area that came under your secretariat, the Pec
6 A. In 1998 the worst situation was in the Baranski circle, and that
7 is Baran [phoen], Celopek, Vlasic -- I can't remember all the names now,
8 the names of all those places. And then in the Klina area as well, the
9 so-called Drenica part, in the village of Kijevo. That was a village that
10 was completely cut off, predominantly inhabited by Serbs. That was
11 isolated for several months. Then in the Rugovska Klisura or gorge area,
12 the Istok part towards Rakos and Suwogolo [phoen], then in Vrelo in the
13 Istok area, that was a very strong terrorist stronghold.
14 And if you look at it that way and see all this, then you can see
15 that Pec was surrounded on all sides by strong terrorist centres, and the
16 terrorists in a certain period of time had cut off Pec from the rest of
17 Kosovo and Metohija. When I say "cut off," I mean in fact that an
18 inhabitant of Pec could not go to Pristina safely and securely, or to
19 Djakovica, for instance, or Kosovska Mitrovica, or Decani. They couldn't
20 use the direct road, the shortest communication. All they could do was go
21 to Pristina via Montenegro, for example, which would mean across Kula,
22 Rozaje to Kosovska Mitrovica and Pristina that way, via a roundabout way,
23 and he would have to take the same route to Djakovica whereas Djakovica is
24 just 35 kilometres away from Pec, but for somebody to do the journey and
25 reach Djakovica, they would have to go round Montenegro and right round
1 the area, which would mean traversing more than 200 kilometres.
2 I myself went from Pec to Belgrade to attend meetings via
3 Montenegro, because none of the roads were secure and safe. You couldn't
4 drive safely through unless you had an armoured vehicle, perhaps, and
5 there were a large number of attacks, and many people were killed along
6 those roads and communication lines, which in turn led to Pec's being cut
8 A significant number of Serb families from the Baranski Lug area
9 left their homes and moved and went to stay with friends or relatives in
10 Pec itself or perhaps further away towards Sumadija in Serbia and
11 Montenegro. A large number of Albanians similarly left their homes. A
12 large number of Albanians in that particular year left and went to other
13 parts, Pec or outside Kosovo and Metohija itself, even abroad, in an
14 attempt to avoid having their children recruited into the so-called
15 Liberation Army of Kosovo.
16 Q. Let's pause there, please, Colonel, for a moment. When you speak
17 about these people leaving their homes and a large number of Albanians who
18 left, too, now, in the places from which the Albanians originated and left
19 their homes, were there any of our forces there, police, or the army, or
20 soldiers, anything like that?
21 A. No. Those were areas under the control of the so-called Kosovo
22 Liberation Army. And within the frameworks of our regular activities, we
23 had our own checkpoints towards the Montenegrin border, for example, and
24 at those checkpoints we registered all entries and exits on a daily basis,
25 and I myself would look through those records and registers, and the
1 general observation was that more people were leaving than were coming
2 into the area. And already at that time we had very set information
3 telling us that people were leaving the Pec area. When they would return
4 we didn't know, but that's what was happening, they were leaving.
5 Q. You said that they attacked civilians, both Serb civilians and
6 Albanian civilians.
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Why did they attack -- why they attacked Serbs, that's quite
9 clear, we all know about that, but why did they attack Albanians?
10 A. They attacked Albanians to force them to join the movement, and
11 the other option was to show the world that it was us that were doing
12 this, attacking them. So this created a whole psychosis and atmosphere of
13 fear. The Serbs were afraid of Albanians, the Albanians were afraid of
14 the Serbs. It was a chain reaction. And if any killings occurred and if
15 there was beating up, if vehicles were shot at, nobody would know who the
16 perpetrators were, who was doing the shooting. Some of the people would
17 say that it was the Serbs that were doing this, others would say that the
18 Albanians were doing this, and then both people were afraid, both groups
19 were afraid of each other.
20 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic, if this evidence relates to any
21 part of the indictment alleging that Serb forces attacked Albanians and
22 Albanians fled, then it would be in your interest to identify the specific
23 areas, the specific villages or regions where this occurred rather than to
24 have the evidence being given in this general way.
25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Robinson, in the indictment in
1 many places there is mention of the fact that Serb forces expelled
2 Albanians and attacked Albanians in their villages. For example, in a
3 secretariat which comprises five municipalities, by dealing with that I
4 would like to show you what the actual situation was like, what was
5 actually going on. And this is a pattern that is presented here in the
6 indictment, a pattern of attacks against Albanians, allegedly attacks on
7 Albanians by Serbs, whereas the facts are quite different, and the colonel
8 is testifying to that by testifying to the situation in his area of
9 responsibility in these five municipalities around Pec.
10 MR. NICE: Your Honour, while the evidence has been interrupted,
11 the witness has been speaking with increasing generality, although I
12 understood that this part of his evidence was rooted in tab 1. If one
13 looks at the last answer, which includes the word "psychosis" for ease of
14 reference, it would obviously help us to know whether that is reflecting
15 some paragraph of conclusions that we can find in tab 1 or if this is just
16 general material.
17 I don't want to keep making that point, but as we move from
18 anything that's specific to general, it would help us to know if this is
19 covered in documentary material or not.
20 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic, that did occur to me, whether any
21 of the evidence which he's giving now is covered in any of the tabs. I
22 presume if it were you would bring that to our attention as supporting
24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Certainly. Otherwise, as far as tab
25 1 is concerned, and with regard to what the colonel said a moment ago, it
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 says on page 2 at the end: "Because of killings and abductions of the
2 Serbs in the Baranski Lug area of Klina, the Serb families left their
3 homes and went into town, and then they were looted. They looted their
4 property, their houses." And then it goes on to speak about the roads,
5 the communication lines, and the suffering and casualty with other
7 I'll ask the witness specifically not to go into and enumerate all
8 the characteristic cases of terrorist attacks in this SUP Pec area.
9 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
10 Q. Colonel, do you remember the killing of six Albanians?
11 A. Of course I do. It is a typical example of the execution of
12 Albanians who refused to comply, and that took place in April 1998.
13 JUDGE ROBINSON: Is that in any of the tabs, the document that is
14 in front of you? If you're not able to say, let us move on and then
15 perhaps we can come back to that. If you're not able to identify a
16 specific tab in which that information is, we should move on.
17 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
18 Q. Colonel, this piece of information about the killing of six
19 Albanians, is it to be found in this document?
20 A. Not in this particular document, no.
21 Q. Is it to be found in any of your other documents?
22 A. No, and I can explain what this is all about. In our area -- in
23 our area, these six Albanians were abducted, and the execution took place
24 in the SUP Prizren area. So the entire case and files are to be found in
25 the Prizren SUP archives. And I have knowledge about the abduction, which
1 was recorded in our daily logbook, and also on the basis of the subsequent
2 contacts I had with the Prizren SUP.
3 Q. All right. Now, with respect to the abduction, was it registered
4 in any of your documents, recorded?
5 A. Not in this one here but in the logbook of the Pec SUP, yes, it
6 was. All these cases were, because I wasn't able to bring in all the
7 documents. Had I known that we would be discussing the matter, I would
8 have done my best to procure those documents as well.
9 JUDGE ROBINSON: Let us move on, Mr. Milosevic.
10 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
11 Q. Thank you, Colonel.
12 JUDGE KWON: Before we go any further, can I clarify with the
13 witness what this document is about a little further.
14 It seems to me that all the documents were prepared by you and
15 signed by you. Is it right?
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
17 JUDGE KWON: At the time of May 2002, on what occasion and for
18 what purpose did you prepare this document? Could you clarify a bit
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In my response to one of the
21 previous questions before the break, I already explained this. I said
22 that we put some order into these documents, the documents that were
23 presented from the Pec SUP area, that we classified them and placed them
24 in the respective files and dossiers. These are translations of the -- of
25 Kosovo and Metohija.
1 JUDGE KWON: Yes, I heard. My question is why in May 2002?
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Because we were not able to do that
3 earlier. We had withdrawn from our area. We had to organise ourselves.
4 We had to wait for all the documents to reach us, to arrive.
5 There was general chaos that reigned during the war, let me tell
6 you, and all the documents got mixed up or, rather, they were sent to
7 other locations to prevent them from being destroyed in the bombing,
8 although a portion was destroyed in the bombing. And then we had to go
9 around these areas and collect up the documents and find where we had sent
10 them. So we found some documents that were compiled in 1998 and 1999 when
11 they should have been compiled, the right time. Then we found them later
12 on, placed them in a warehouse, in a storage space, and looked for the
13 individual papers one by one. And this job was finished in May, and some
14 were -- May 2002. Some documents were classified earlier on, but that's
15 why they were signed at that particular date, at that time. There was no
16 other reason to complete the task in May except for the objective
17 situation that reigned, because of this displacement and the chaos that
18 was going on in the area itself.
19 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
20 Proceed, Mr. Milosevic.
21 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
22 Q. Colonel, all these documents were drafted pursuant to orders from
23 the then authorities of Serbia; is that right?
24 A. Well, we classified them like this, yes, but we had put some order
25 into these documents without a separate order. However, this methodology
1 and the final classification was done pursuant to an order issued, yes.
2 Q. Fine. Thank you. Now, tell me, please, Colonel, who was Sali
3 Berisha and why was he killed?
4 A. Sali Berisha was the owner of a petrol pump at the -- in the Klina
5 area, the petrol company, and he was well known for selling fuel to
6 anybody who came to his gas station, and there was a general shortage at
7 that time, and he would sell fuel to Albanians and Serbs alike. The
8 members of the so-called KLA criticised him for selling fuel to the Serbs
9 and for associating with the Serbs and doing business with the Serbs and
10 ordered him to stop that practice. He continued to do what he had been
11 doing and continued to sell fuel to the Serbs and socialise with the
12 Serbs, and they proclaimed him a traitor, as well as his family members
13 and all of his employees. And then one evening in the month of April
14 1998, they rounded them up, they abducted them from their houses, that is
15 to say this man and his family members and his neighbours and the six
16 Albanians in total that worked for him. They took them away from their
17 houses, uniformed KLA members who were armed did this. They abducted them
18 and executed them by the roadside, the Malisevo-Orahovac road.
19 Q. Sali Berisha was killed, then, for having sold fuel at his petrol
20 station to Serbs; is that right?
21 A. That is right.
22 Q. And when you Lloxha, what geographical region is that?
23 A. Lloxha is in fact a village which is a suburb of Pec itself.
24 Q. And what do you know about the conflict between the KLA and the
25 police in Lloxha, for instance?
1 A. The terrorists in Lloxha built very strong fortifications. They
2 dug trenches and communicating trenches. They were well-armed, and that
3 was part and parcel of their attempt to gain control of Pec and to see our
5 At the beginning of July 1998, they did in fact attack the
6 Vujosevic family, Serbs living in Lloxha, and from the SUP headquarters of
7 Pec a unit was sent to try and protect the family and its members. The
8 police unit did arrive, went to the Vujosevic house, and they protected
9 the family, but upon their return to Pec or along their -- the road back,
10 an ambush was set up and the terrorists attacked the unit, and how is this
11 going to be a -- replace this -- be this -- will this be translated, with
12 hand-held rocket launchers and automatic weapons. That's what they used.
13 And on the occasion two policemen were killed because the Pinzgauer
14 vehicle was pierced with shell. Two policemen were killed, several others
15 wounded. Two policemen, one a captain Srdjan Perovic was his name, was
16 kidnapped. Or the two of them were kidnapped and nothing was known of
17 their fate for a long time. And then during a terrorist action their
18 corpses were found, that is to say the corpse of Captain Perovic and
19 policeman Rajkovic, and a post-mortem was conducted and it was established
20 that they had died a terrible death, in great pain.
21 After they managed to repel the terrorists from the area, the
22 trenches and communicating trenches were found with large quantities of
23 ammunition and weapons, automatic rifles and machine-guns, and so on and
24 so forth.
25 Q. And that case is in the tabs; is that right?
1 A. Yes, that's right. On that day I was in Brezanicka Street in Pec,
2 which is Brezanik suburb, which is about 300 metres away from the JNA
3 barracks and we were actually fighting them at the entrance to the town of
4 Pec. Their plan was to try to take the town of Pec and to establish their
5 own government there.
6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Gentlemen, I'd like to draw your
7 attention to the following: Mr. Nice called one or two witnesses in this
8 respect, I cannot remember now, who said it was the policemen who attacked
9 the Albanians in Lloxha. Now you have the opportunity of hearing what had
10 really happened in Lloxha.
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm sorry. It wasn't only in
12 Lloxha. Also they attacked Pec itself. At the entrance into Pec,
13 Brezanicko-Litsa [phoen], and the barracks of the VJ of the army of
14 Yugoslavia were hit by their bullets, but the army did not leave the
16 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Nice, do you remember the witnesses whom you
17 called, or Mr. Kay?
18 MR. NICE: No. I notice the accused's taking an opportunity to
19 make a comment, but no, I don't remember the witnesses. I'll find them
20 out for you if it's valuable.
21 JUDGE ROBINSON: Proceed, Mr. Milosevic. Do you know the
22 witnesses, the Prosecution witnesses? I'd like to have a look at their
23 testimony. What are the names?
24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Unfortunately, no. I remembered
25 that this was referred to when the witness was explaining now what had
1 happened in Lloxha, but I'll look it up.
2 MR. NICE: I should be able to find it out for you very rapidly,
3 or certainly by the break.
4 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thanks.
5 JUDGE KWON: Lloxha appears in the transcript dated 25th of April.
6 Could you find out.
7 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Milosevic.
8 JUDGE KWON: Sorry, 25th of April in 2002. Go on, Mr. Milosevic.
9 JUDGE ROBINSON: I'm reminded how long this case has been going
11 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
12 Q. Colonel, what can you say about the activities of the Salihaj
13 brothers in the Istok area? That was also within your area of
15 A. There were eight Salihaj brothers. I think there were eight of
16 them. Well, it's contained in the document anyway. They committed a
17 great many terrorist attacks. The members of the Kosovo Liberation Army.
18 Gajic Rajko was one of the Serbs who was killed and also Krstic Slavko
19 [phoen] and Krsdanovic Slavoljub [phoen]. Krasniqi Naim from Crni Lug
20 too. That is the 19th of May, 1998. In the village of Rakos, Svetlarevic
21 Zdravko had a grenade thrown into his house and he was killed and his wife
22 was wounded on the occasion.
23 Q. What do you know about the crimes in Budisavci and Velika Krusevo?
24 A. The terrorists carried out an attack against the Serbs in the
25 village of Budisavci. Then they took Dalibor Lazarevic out of his house.
1 He was 16 years old, in Krusevo, and they literally executed him. He was
2 a 16-year-old boy.
3 Q. Do you know what happened to Rifat Ajdinaj in June 1998?
4 A. More or less everybody knows what happened, all people who lived
5 in the area at the time. People talked about it a lot, and it is correct.
6 Ajdinaj Rifat, he did not want to join the movement of the so-called KLA,
7 and he killed his own son Malj. He shot him. He did not let him go, and
8 he used his own rifle to kill him. And then he surrendered to the members
9 of the police, and he explained his motives.
10 Q. In the period that you are testifying about, 1998 and 1999, were
11 there any abductions?
12 A. Yes. Yes, several abductions of Serbs and Albanians. More than
13 15 Serbs were kidnapped, and about ten Albanians that year. That was only
14 during the months of June and July. That's the relevant figure. We have
15 the total figures for 1998 and 1999, but I'm talking about only those two
16 months now, the number of Serbs and Albanians abducted in June and July
17 1998, that were very difficult months from a security point of view in
18 1998. That is when the situation was the most difficult in that area, not
19 taking into account the NATO aggression.
20 Q. Were those roads that you referred to a few minutes ago taken
22 A. Yes. That was a period when Pec was literally cut off from the
23 rest of Serbia, and the only way out was to Montenegro.
24 Q. All right. In 1998, now this is the time before the Verification
25 Mission came, when did the police force take anti-terrorist activity?
1 A. The police force took anti-terrorist activities in July and
3 Q. After this culmination?
4 A. Yes. Yes. They were forced to act, because the situation was
5 untenable. The population was in a very difficult situation, both Serbs
6 and Albanians. It was impossible to travel anywhere. Supplies were made
7 increasingly difficult.
8 Q. You explained that. What was the aim of these terrorist
9 activities and who were they aimed against?
10 A. The anti-terrorist activities were only conducted against
11 terrorists, and this was done in a very organised and planned manner. The
12 police did not react to individual cases. It did not react strongly.
13 Activities were taken later in a planned and organised fashion with the
14 intention of avoiding any kind of civilian casualties. These activities
15 were aimed at terrorists only in order to deblockade the roads and to
16 repel terrorists from these areas and so that the population could go back
18 We have the figures here in the subsequent chapters, entire
19 families that moved out of certain villages.
20 Q. Now did the policemen treat the civilians when anti-terrorist
21 activities were taken?
22 A. The policemen had the task of protecting the lives of all persons,
23 civilians and terrorists. That is to say not to kill anyone until
24 absolutely necessary. Civilians by no means, and the terrorists only if
25 there is no other way out, if they cannot be arrested, if they cannot be
1 repelled, or if they are attacked by the terrorists as the police advance.
2 If there's no other way out, then the terrorists could be shot, but this
3 was avoided if it would threaten the lives of civilians.
4 Q. What were the results of these anti-terrorist activities of the
5 police? What was the situation?
6 A. The result was the deblockade of the area. The terrorists were
7 repelled, roads were deblocked. The materials that they had placed along
8 the road were removed. For example, in Iglarevo. They established a
9 border of their own and they would not let people pass. I went there
10 myself and we had to take measures in order to remove this. People
11 returned to their homes.
12 The terrorists certainly came back with the civilian population up
13 to an extent. The terrorist forces were broken up. Some of them had to
14 flee back to Albania, but others were among the civilian population, and
15 they hid around their homes. They brought weapons to particular places in
16 a village. They would gather weapons. There was a paradoxical situation.
17 For example, 15 days before that, the police could not go there
18 and civilians could not go back to their homes, and then policemen -- two
19 policemen would come and then they would collect all these weapons that
20 the terrorists had left behind. Efforts were made for as many terrorists
21 as possible to hand in their weapons and not to have any further measures
22 taken against them, not to have criminal prosecution or anything.
23 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreters note that they cannot hear the
24 witness because another microphone is on in the courtroom.
25 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
1 Q. What were the units that took part in the activities in Pec?
2 A. In the anti-terrorist activities, there were special police units
3 that were involved, specialist -- a special anti-terrorist unit, and also
4 the regular police force.
5 Q. In the territory that SUP Pec was in charge of, was there any
6 local security?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. What is local security? Could you please explain that.
9 A. Local security is an idea which was carried out in order to try to
10 minimise tensions. Namely, in a particular village the population, the
11 people would elect their own representative. This representative would
12 get a uniform which would be different from other uniforms. The person
13 concerned would have a badge, an ID, and authority to ask other people to
14 show their IDs and even to bring into custody persons to the SUP.
15 Local security was organised and financed by the municipality. It
16 was not organised by the SUP.
17 The underlying idea was that in this way, police presence would be
18 reduced in villages. If there are no serious problems there, the police
19 would not have to deal with them. It would be the local security people
20 who would deal with it. Then the number of possible provocations from
21 both sides would go down as well, because some Albanians would consider to
22 be provocative even if they saw policemen in villages. We thought that
23 there would be less terrorist attacks in this way, and slowly over time
24 there would be a general easing of tensions.
25 Q. Since you didn't say this yourself I will have to ask you whether
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 the members of the local security had weapons.
2 A. Yes; short barrelled weapons, pistols.
3 Q. All right. They had badges, IDs, and weapons, and also police
4 batons; right? They had the same kind of equipment like any other
6 A. Yes, but with a different kind of uniform.
7 Q. All right. So in various villages it was the people themselves,
8 the villagers themselves who elected such a representative?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. In Albanian-populated villages, were these people always
12 A. Yes, they were.
13 Q. Yes. So the Albanians themselves decided amongst themselves who
14 their local policeman would be?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Was that the underlying idea?
17 A. Yes, it was.
18 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic, I can hear the interpreters
19 straining and speaking very fast, so please observe a pause between
20 question and answer.
21 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
22 Q. Tell me, Colonel, what was the attitude of the KLA towards the
23 local population or the local security?
24 A. I'm trying to pause.
25 Q. But keep your pauses shorter. Just pause very briefly.
1 A. They were violently opposed to this because this certainly did not
2 work in their favour. They tried to win over the members of the local
3 security, and if they did not want to do that, then they created various
4 problems for them. They mistreated them and killed either them or members
5 of their families.
6 Q. Have you got any examples of this kind of incident against members
7 of the local security?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. A few moments ago we said that they were all Albanians.
10 A. Yes. I myself am aware of the Klimenta family case. One of them
11 was a member of the local security and they had terrible problems on
12 account of that. They had to move out of the territory of Kosovo and
13 Metohija because of that.
14 Q. Please take a look at tab 10.1 and 10.2. Is there a criminal
15 report there against these persons who attacked? Does it have to do with
16 the crime of terrorism? Klimenta Idriz statement, that is, and Klimenta
17 Malj's statement; 10.1 and 10.2.
18 A. Yes, that is correct. I can recognise the documents. I am not
19 aware of their entire contents, but I know what this is all about. These
20 are statements of Klimenta Idriz and Klimenta Malj, members of the
21 Klimenta family. One of them was a member of the local security.
22 MR. NICE: Your Honour, this is a territory of evidential
23 admissibility that we've visited before, but this time the witness says he
24 is not aware of even the entire contents of what is clearly a witness
25 statement of some kind. I have no idea what my position would be on the
1 underlying facts asserted in this statement at the moment, and I leave it
2 entirely to the Chamber as to whether, if there are going to be more of
3 the statements of this kind sought to be produced by this witness they
4 should go in as evidence in light of its previous rulings, but it does
5 appear to be a hearsay witness statement.
6 JUDGE ROBINSON: But let us hear more about it, Mr. Milosevic.
7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, tab 10 that the witness has
8 just been speaking about, KLA's treatment of local security men, one of
9 this family was part of this local security elected by the village
10 population itself. So what you see here is a criminal report accompanied
11 by the statements of these two men underlying this criminal report. The
12 criminal report is an official document of the Secretariat of the Interior
13 in Pec relating to criminal acts perpetrated against Idriz Klimenta whose
14 statement is to be found in tab 10.1, and Malj Klimenta, 10.2.
15 JUDGE ROBINSON: What does he have to do with this statement? Is
16 it a statement that he collected?
17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] He has a lot to do with it because
18 he was the chief of the SUP of Pec and this event is connected with Pec,
19 so it is or, rather, was within his competence. Ex officio, he was in
20 charge of the area of Pec. He knows that he does not know by heart what
21 is written in the statements, but it doesn't mean that he doesn't know
22 about the statements or the event. On the contrary, he's testifying to
23 this event without going into the details of the statements.
24 These statements were attached as corroboration of the witness's
25 statement that the local Albanian population was under attack from the
1 local KLA.
2 JUDGE ROBINSON: To whom was the statement given?
3 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
4 Q. Please look at these documents, Colonel, and give us an
6 A. The statements were taken by the head of the criminal
7 investigation section of the Pec police, Danilo Bulatovic, in the outpost
8 of the Pec SUP in Kragujevac.
9 I had those statements in my hands at the time, and we discussed
10 steps to be taken. A criminal report was submitted to the district public
11 prosecutor's office. I can't tell you what is written here verbatim
12 because I don't know all this by heart, but I know the subject matter and
13 I know when the statements were taken.
14 JUDGE KWON: Just a second. Just a second.
15 Mr. Paponjak, do you remember when this statement was taken?
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I cannot tell you the exact time or
18 JUDGE KWON: If you look at the first page of tab 10, not 10.1, I
19 note a date 28th of June, 2002. Is that date when this statement was
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The statement could have been taken
22 on that day or a couple of days earlier.
23 JUDGE KWON: The matters referred to in these statements were --
24 happened when? It's 1998 or 1999?
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
1 JUDGE KWON: However, the statements were taken in 2002.
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. That is neither odd nor
3 unusual in the situation in which we worked, because the Klimenta family
4 had fled Kosovo, and that was the first time they came to our SUP to be
5 issued with new IDs, and that was the occasion when we were able to take
6 their statements in Kragujevac, because they were living at the time in
8 That is not the only statement related to events from 1998 that we
9 took later in 2002, for instance. Some statements were never taken to
10 this day because we were simply unable to reach all the injured parties.
11 [Trial Chamber confers]
12 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic, we'll hear evidence from this
13 witness on this statement. Presumably ultimately you will ask us to admit
14 it for identification subject to its being translated. But we don't even
15 know what is in the statement. Is the witness in a position to say what
16 is in the statement?
17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Robinson, I'm really being very
18 selective with documents, because it is absolutely clear to me that we
19 cannot introduce here not even the majority of documents let alone all of
20 them. For instance, with the witness Obradovic, we had thousands of pages
21 of accompanying documents, and my associates reduced it to a couple of
22 hundred, and that concerns a military commander for a certain area, with
23 very important documents supporting his testimony.
24 However, this document is very typical, and it makes it possible
25 for everyone to understand in which way the KLA established the terror
1 which still prevails in Kosovo to this day. And I am asking you kindly to
2 let us look at the contents of this statement. The man who gave it was
3 not arrested. He came himself to a police centre that was dislocated,
4 relocated from Pec, in order to restore his rights.
5 JUDGE ROBINSON: It's open to you to call that person,
6 Mr. Milosevic.
7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] It is very difficult indeed. Let me
8 draw your attention to one thing, and I would like the witness to follow.
9 On the last page, just in relation to authenticity, it says: "My wife
10 gave statements several times to UNMIK and KFOR in Pec regarding all the
11 circumstances that I described here myself. I demand that all legal
12 measures be taken against KLA criminals and to make it possible for me to
13 return to my property."
14 My associates tried to reach this man. He is not at the address
15 where he used to be. He has left. I do hope that we will be able to
16 reach him eventually, as well as some other people. But with all
17 Albanians who are in this situation, they need certain protection, because
18 we're not talking about some kind of abuse here. We are talking about
19 life and death. It's the choice between life and death, not only for him
20 but for his entire family.
21 Let us just look at what this statement says, please. It will not
22 take a lot of time.
23 JUDGE ROBINSON: Let us look at this statement. If we can get a
24 summary of it, so much the better. It will, of course, strengthen your
25 case immeasurably if you're able to call this witness to testify to the
1 extent that the evidence will be relevant.
2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] This statement is extremely
3 relevant, Mr. Robinson. Please, he says at the beginning: "I was born
4 and have always lived in Kosuric village near Pec. I had a house which
5 the KLA ruined by demolishing it and eight hectares of land."
6 It says also: "I lived peacefully with all my neighbours,
7 Albanians and Serbs. I never had any conflict with the law. At that
8 time, I lived well and I was happy because I was able to feed my family
9 and procure everything that we needed to live normally. Until 1998, I had
10 no problems with KLA whatever. In January 1998, I can't remember the
11 exact date, without any reason whatsoever, around midnight KLA members
12 shot at my house from automatic weapons and threw two hand grenades," et
14 Then he says in May -- the month of May the same year, Selim Met
15 Kelmendi, KLA commander for Kosuric village, and Redj Ajdar Kelmendi, his
16 deputy, came to his house and summoned him to come out into the yard.
17 Both were in uniforms, armed with automatic weapons. And then he goes on
18 to say: "Selim and Redj told me to kill Serbs in my village and to kill
19 whoever they ordered me to, including members of my family. They even
20 told me to kill my own uncle, Saliju Klimenta, and other members of my
21 family. They told me if I performed this assignment, I will be admitted
22 into their ranks; if I don't, they will kill me and my son. And then they
23 left. I don't remember the exact date but I remember it was around noon.
24 This conversation lasted for about 30 minutes."
25 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic, you're not in a position to give
1 the evidence. It is the witness who is giving the evidence. So you must
2 have a question of the witness in relation to the matters in the
4 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I have a message here from Professor
5 Rakic regarding the testimony of, and I would like to ask for a private
6 session because I will mention a name. Just for one minute.
7 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. Private session, please.
8 [Private session]
17 [Open session]
18 JUDGE ROBINSON: We're in open session.
19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Further below in this statement, it
20 says that after that conversation and the threats uttered, he spent some
21 time in the woods, and he come back home for an hour or half an hour. He
22 says: "I reported the incident to the police in Celopek. However, the
23 policemen had no ability to prevent this activity because the KLA had
24 already occupied a lot of the territory."
25 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
1 Q. Does he mean, Colonel, the territory around his village?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Are you aware of this subject matter, although you said you don't
4 know all the details of this statement?
5 A. I am perfectly aware of this subject matter. I don't know all the
6 details of the statement, I don't know all the dates, but I know when the
7 statement was taken, and I know when the criminal report was made, and I
8 personally signed the accompanying letter to the Office of the Prosecutor.
9 This document is not here, but it is a regular form.
10 This statement was taken in Kragujevac where we were very limited
11 in our opportunities for work. It was taken by the head of the criminal
12 investigation police precisely because of the complexity of the case, and
13 it was why the chief took charge of this case, this statement, himself.
14 The statement was signed on every page by the person who gave the
15 statement, which means it is indisputably authentic. And the statement
16 describes in every last detail what happened to his family, how his sons
17 were killed, what measures were taken by the UNMIK police and which
18 measures were not taken. And this is why we submitted a criminal report
19 to the district public prosecutor in Pec, so that we would perhaps be able
20 to take some further measures.
21 Q. Colonel, you mentioned somebody called Meto Krasniqi Vranovci. He
22 is also mentioned here.
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. His brothers, or cousins, Avnija and Meto Mehmeti from Pozara near
25 Decani are also mentioned. Do you see that on page 2?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. It says Meto Krasniqi Vranovci was commander for the Black Hand.
3 He decided who was to be killed. His base was in Vranovac. Meto had in
4 his unit more than a thousand men from 19 villages. He had his people
5 everywhere. Meto killed a lot of people and raped Albanian women. I know
6 that he brought one Albanian girl from Streca or Istinic into Celopek,
7 raped her and killed her. The entire village knows that. In the course
8 of 1998, Meto, with his group, came into the house of the policeman Zenun
9 Gashi in Kosuric, obviously an Albanian, kidnapped the man and later
10 butchered him. He tortured Gashi for about three hours. After the
11 kidnapping, Gashi was taken to the village of Dasinovac, near Decani,
12 into the headquarters, and there he was killed in the most vicious manner.
13 A. Yes. That was one policeman whose wife later started proceedings,
14 and he was proclaimed dead five years later. We did not have this
15 information until these persons came to see us in Kragujevac.
16 JUDGE ROBINSON: Sorry to interrupt. It's time for the
17 adjournment. In fact, we are past the time, so we'll adjourn for 20
19 --- Recess taken at 12.17 p.m.
20 --- On resuming at 12.43 p.m.
21 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Nice.
22 MR. NICE: As to the query about the evidence concerning Lloxha,
23 the town gets mentioned once in passing by Karleusa but otherwise is
24 simply the subject of evidence by, as His Honour Judge Kwon has I think
25 already identified the witness, Ndrec Konaj, and it's the
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 cross-examination of that witness together with his 92 bis statement,
2 which is Exhibit 112, that covers the matter, but I don't think it's
3 covered anywhere else unless our word searches are misspelled and have
4 missed it.
5 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Nice, does that deal with events in 1998? I
6 think the month was July 1998.
7 MR. NICE: I think it does but I'll have to go into it again
8 myself indeed.
9 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you very much, Mr. Nice.
10 MR. KAY: It's the attack on that particular district in Pec, but
11 it's not mentioned in any great detail.
12 JUDGE BONOMY: Is it 1998?
13 MR. KAY: Yes, it seems to be. It's not particularly clear.
14 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you. Yes, Mr. Milosevic.
15 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
16 Q. Colonel, we left off discussing the brief or, rather, the
17 statement that I quoted from. The man Metonovci Krasniqi, he was the
18 commander of the Black Hand. That was the man. And he says more than
19 1.000 people from 19 villages, on page 3, towards the end of the large
20 paragraph, he said: "Meto was a close associate of Ramush Haradinaj. He
21 associated closely with Idriz Baljaj, nicknamed Toger, who was at the
22 staff and headquarters at Dasinovac. I know that Toger perpetrated many
23 crimes against the Serbs and Roma. He slit their throats. That was the
24 way he killed them. Otherwise, he was a resident of Sicevo-Klina and the
25 headquarters and staff in Dasinovac was the most infamous one where all
1 the victims were massacred."
2 Have you found that passage and do you know about those events?
3 A. Yes, I do.
4 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for the witness, please. Microphone,
5 please, for the witness.
6 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
7 Q. I asked you whether you knew about those events.
8 A. Yes.
9 THE INTERPRETER: Both microphones, please. Thank you.
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can hear you now. Yes, I do know
11 about those events. Idriz Balaj was convicted in Kosmet by the court in
12 Kosmet for the killing of Albanians, and he was the perpetrator of those
13 killings. He didn't only kill Serbs, he also killed Albanians, and he was
14 convicted at a trial in 2002 and given a prison term, and the accused is
15 now together before this Tribunal appearing with Ramush Haradinaj. And
16 then he goes on to say -- or he goes on to say, rather, that at the end of
17 March because the lives of his family were threatened by the KLA, he was
18 forced to leave the village with his family. Fifty-four members of his
19 village left from Kosuric across Celopek, and their idea was to go to
20 Klincina and report to the police there and apply for protection.
21 A. Well, that would be the closest police station or police
22 department to which he could go for help.
23 Q. On that morning, his son Gzim Klimenta, 15 years old, was
24 kidnapped in front of his house, and here he gives us the names of the
25 persons who kidnapped him: Fljorim Alickaj, Astrit Thaci, and Ram
1 Kelmendi, and one other person whose surname he doesn't know. And then
2 that he was taken to the headquarters, and it says that Ramush Haradinaj
3 was in the headquarters, they held him for three weeks, and then killed
4 him. And it says here -- but do you know about this event?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Before that, they shot him in the leg and tortured him, held a
7 noose around his neck throughout the time he was there, and he also says
8 that his son was buried only after KFOR had arrived.
9 A. Well, they couldn't do that before.
10 Q. He also says - and that's on page 4 - that on the same day they
11 kidnapped his son, he went to Klincina with his family, and then he says
12 and I quote, and I'm going to ask you whether you know anything about
13 that: "We were taken in by the police and we were all put up in the
14 premises of the primary school near the police building. The police
15 provided security for us and made it impossible for the KLA to attack us.
16 They supplied us with food, even cigarettes, when we needed them."
17 A. Yes, that's absolutely true. And it's not the only family, the
18 only Albanian family whom we protected and found accommodation in order to
19 protect them from the so-called KLA and their attacks.
20 Q. He says after that that he had to leave, to move out, when the
21 army and police withdrew from Kosovo, they had to go with them, and that
22 now they all have IDs as displaced persons.
23 A. Yes, that's right.
24 Q. Now, he also goes on to say that in August 1999, his brother,
25 Muharem Klimenta, 30 years of age, from Rozaje, that is from Montenegro,
1 and his uncle Dzafo Klimenta, 21 years old, went to their village to take
2 a look at their houses and property. And they learnt immediately -- the
3 KLA learnt about this and arrived straight away. So that was in August
4 1999 when the KLA was apparently functioning normally. Do you know about
6 A. Yes. I apologise, but may I ask you that if you're going to quote
7 names, could we have them quoted in private session, please.
8 Q. Very well. I won't go into the names. But I assume --
9 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Paponjak, do you know why Klimenta and the
10 family Klimenta did not give statements to the police when they went to
11 the police in the first instance when the boy was kidnapped?
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, possibly they did make
13 statements at that time, but we don't have that document in our
14 possession. They did report to the police department in Klincina and not
15 the headquarters of the SUP Pec, and the documents from that police
16 department was not taken away, was not collected.
17 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
18 Q. Well, I don't want to read the names, then. I don't assume you
19 mean members of the KLA, Colonel.
20 A. No, no. It would be a catastrophic thing for those people if you
21 were to read out their names. I wouldn't be sure that they would be safe
22 and secure if you did that. Their safety would be jeopardised.
23 Q. Yes. That's quite true, I'm sure.
24 Now, he goes on to say that the KLA members were identified, those
25 who perpetrated this act in August 1999, abducting these people. Their
1 names were Bajrush and Muharem and they were wearing uniforms and armed,
2 and that was in August 1999.
3 A. Yes, that's right.
4 Q. And they held them for three weeks near the police station by the
5 headquarters in Pec, and after three weeks they took them to the village
6 of Strejoz [phoen], Decani, a place nearby called Demov Most, or Demov
7 bridge, and killed them from firearms. They covered them with petrol and
8 set fire to them. And then the individuals who said who the perpetrators
9 were, and he said that Bajrush Berisha and Muharem Gashi, members of the
10 Black Hand, had killed his brother.
11 After that we can see that Lica Klimenta [phoen] went to ask
12 around and find out what had happened to those people because he didn't
13 know they had been killed. And Bajrush Berisha came straight away. He
14 called out to him. As soon as the man came out of the house, he shot him
15 dead on the spot, and shooting a whole round of ammunition.
16 A. Yes, that's the second son that he killed, his second son.
17 Q. And then he goes on to say on the following page that UNMIK and
18 KFOR were informed by the hospital of this event and UNMIK and KFOR
19 arrested Bajrush Berisha for the killing and he was given a prison term of
20 15 years and is now in Dubrava, the prison at Istok. And for the killing
21 of the son, brother, and his uncle's son, no measures were taken.
22 A. That's right. But there's something characteristic in this case
23 here that I should like to note. A Catholic priest transferred him who
24 hospital. That means none of the neighbours did and not a single Muslim
25 did either. It was a Catholic priest who transferred the wounded Disar
1 [phoen] to hospital. The other people either didn't dare or didn't wish
3 Q. Well, let's not speculate about that, but in view of the amount of
4 fear that exists there, probably they didn't dare to.
5 He goes on to say: "I claim that the violence against my
6 immediate family members and broader family was conducted by the KLA
7 exclusively because we did not want to join up with the KLA and carry out
8 their orders, and their orders were that we had to kill each other
9 mutually, amongst ourselves, and to kill Serbs too. They also asked us to
10 kill policemen, and that was a condition for us to stay alive and join
11 their ranks."
12 A. Yes, that was like that, and that's not the only case. We have a
13 whole series of cases in our documents here of similar instances, similar
15 JUDGE ROBINSON: Did I hear you correctly, Mr. Milosevic, that a
16 condition was that they had to kill each other? Can the witness explain
18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Robinson, in the statement
19 itself at the beginning of what I was quoting, you will able to see that
20 the first time they arrived they said they had to kill Serbs, and they
21 also gave them an assignment to kill their uncle, whom they probably
22 didn't like for some reason, so that's what this refers to, to kill each
23 other mutually, because they asked him to kill his uncle, that --
24 JUDGE ROBINSON: To kill his uncle. Okay. Thanks very much.
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] His uncle was a highly respected
2 individual, and they were asked to kill the uncle as the most prominent
3 member of the family.
4 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
5 Q. That's on page 1 of the statement, isn't it? He says that they
6 were first asked to kill Serbs and policemen and then to kill their uncle,
7 too; right?
8 A. That uncle is the father a member of the local security.
9 Q. Then he goes on to say: "We didn't wish to execute their orders.
10 We didn't want to join them either because they were the perpetrators of
11 all the crimes."
12 All right, I'll try and read more slowly, I've been asked to do
14 Then he goes on to say: "I claim that the police acted correctly
15 and properly towards the Albanians. They never perpetrated crimes against
16 Albanians. On the contrary, the policemen even brought the Albanians food
17 into the village and protected us from the KLA. Redj Kelmendi, one of the
18 commanders in Kosuric, left his invalid mother in his house, the policemen
19 fed her and even saw to her physiological needs. And this was personally
20 done by Commander Ljubo Stankovic with his policemen, regardless of the
21 fact that her son was one of the criminals. Do you know about that?
22 A. Yes, and that's not the only example of that kind of thing. I
23 know of several such examples and I personally would behave that way or
24 ask my Serb neighbours or their Serb neighbours to look after them.
25 Q. He says: "I am ready to testify before a local court and before
1 The Hague Tribunal about this," and then confirms that and says he will
2 confirm that the persons undersigned will confirm that too, the ones that
3 have confirmed his statement, but that they were not allowed to return.
4 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I hope, Mr. Robinson, that it will
5 be possible for a relevant witness whose name is not mentioned here but
6 whom I mentioned in closed session, in private session, will be able to
7 come in and testify. He's not even asking to testify in closed session.
8 He will be testifying publicly but have image distortion or visual
10 JUDGE ROBINSON: Make the application, and it will be considered.
11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Robinson.
12 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
13 Q. Now, Colonel, we saw the example here of one family, and they
14 suffered great tragedies. We can see how many people were killed, and
15 from the statement we have also seen how widespread the terror was,
16 especially in that area, the KLA area.
17 MR. NICE: [Previous translation continues] ... quite a wide
18 licence in commenting in the course of his questions. I haven't
19 interrupted earlier but I would invite the Chamber to keep him to the
21 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Milosevic. Just ask a question.
22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well.
23 JUDGE ROBINSON: Eliminate the commentary.
24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well, Mr. Robinson. And I
25 don't think any comment is necessary here.
1 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
2 Q. We saw an example of how they behaved towards Albanian peasants or
3 villagers who had nothing to do with the state.
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Now tell me this, please: How did the members of the KLA behave
6 towards Albanians who worked in a state organisation or in any other kind
7 of institution? It needn't be a state organisation, it could be a
8 forestry company or the post office or any kind of utility service or
9 public service, if we can call it that.
10 A. They proclaimed such Albanians traitors, and they threatened them
11 publicly. They demanded that they leave their jobs, and those who did not
12 comply, they would apply various measures. They would even attack them
13 and physically liquidate them as well. That was the ultimate measure.
14 And this applied, first of all, to public enterprises, people working in
15 them and the state organs of Serbia, but it also applied to other
16 companies and enterprises whose proprietors were Serbs, private
17 enterprises owned by Serbs. Quite simply, any Albanian who associated
18 with Serbs or socialised with them were termed a disobedient Albanian. We
19 used -- we tend to use the term "loyal Albanian." Sometimes it can be a
20 "disobedient Albanian." That is from the KLA aspects. "Loyal Albanian"
21 implies -- the term implies that the person works in a state organisation,
22 behaves properly pursuant to the laws of the country, does nothing against
23 the country, does not engage in any hostile activities, socialises as an
24 associate with the whole population, including the Serbs. Now, the
25 members of the so-called KLA consider them to be disobedient Albanians who
1 need to be disciplined and who need to be made to comply and support the
2 so-called KLA.
3 We have an example --
4 Q. I'd like -- I understand that you could quote many examples and
5 individual examples of that kind of thing but I'd like to dwell on some of
6 the examples I have selected for which we have documents. So would you
7 now please take a look at tab 27, which is a criminal report --
8 JUDGE ROBINSON: What binder is this?
9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I'll tell you in just a moment. It
10 is binder 5. Yes, tab 27, binder 5.
11 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
12 Q. What can we see from this criminal report? The date is April
13 1998. Take a look at page 2. All we can see there is that the injured
14 party, Baljaj Ramadan, from the Iglarevo village of Klin was born in 1939,
15 that he was a forester. It says that Ramadan was a forester and a worker
16 of the Sumar enterprise, the forestry company.
17 A. Yes. This is a document that was brought from the area, and on
18 page 1 you have an observation made written in handwriting, and I
19 recognise my own handwriting, 16th of April, 1998. When we were
20 categorising the documentation, I put in a mark there because you can't
21 see from the first page what event this relates to. So I put some
22 markings there, and that's the first page which has the date and the
23 number in the Registry.
24 Q. Can we see from this that 15 armed terrorists attacked the house
25 of Baljaj Ramadan?
1 A. Yes, Baljaj Ramadan was a forester, and I know him personally.
2 Many people in the area know him personally. He was a man who was
3 attacked on several occasions by the terrorists. His house was attacked
4 many times by the terrorists, and he lost an eye in a clash with the
5 terrorists, and ultimately he had to leave the area because he just
6 couldn't survive after the protection forces arrived in Kosovo and
8 On this particular day, a terrorist attack was launched against
9 his house.
10 Q. Pause there, please. When you say that a terrorist attack was
11 launched, it says here, "The terrorists opened a burst of gunfire from
12 automatic weapons on the house. They fired several mines from a hand-held
13 rocket launcher, and several hand grenades were thrown at the house.
14 Ramadan responded by firing from a hunting rifle of the Nosbeg [phoen]
15 make, 12 millimetres, it has the number, and from a 7.65 millimetre
16 pistol," et cetera, et cetera. Please continue.
17 A. On that occasion, he happened to hit a number of terrorists with
18 his pistol and with his hunting rifle at the point where they were trying
19 to storm his house, to enter his house. So in that attack, by explosive
20 devices and shrapnel, he was -- he sustained several injuries and one
21 serious injury, which was the injury to his left eye from a hand-held
22 rocket launcher. And he is blind in that eye to the present day and has
23 an artificial one.
24 Q. It says here in the description --
25 JUDGE ROBINSON: Did you lead any evidence as to the provenance of
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 this document? Who collected the statement? It doesn't appear as if it
2 was collected by the witness.
3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] This is -- no. No. I am bearing in
4 mind the fact that the witness did not actually take statements. He was
5 the head of the secretariat. The previous statement that we'd looked at
6 he was able to identify and said that it was the chief of the crime police
7 that took that particular statement. Bulatovic was the name who signed
8 the document.
9 This criminal report was written, was compiled by Captain Music
10 Hamdija and Captain Aleksic Zoran. Yes, that's right, Aleksic Zoran. And
11 Radulovic Predrag, warrant officer. And that is also in the crime
12 inspection department.
13 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. Proceed.
14 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
15 Q. Do you know these persons who took the statement?
16 A. Yes. They are members of the crime prevention department of the
17 Secretariat of the Interior in Pec. They work in the homicide and sexual
18 crimes department.
19 Q. Colonel, tell me, please, when did the Verification Mission of the
20 OSCE arrive? I don't mean generally speaking in Kosovo and Metohija, but
21 when did they arrive in the territory under your secretariat, that is to
22 say in Pec?
23 A. As for the area of the Secretariat of the Interior in Pec, there
24 were members of different missions. In 1998, there were about four
25 members of a mission of the European Union from the very outset, since
1 around March 1998.
2 As for the Verification Mission in Kosovo, it arrived in the area
3 of Pec towards the end of November and the beginning of December, but
4 before that there was the KDOM mission, this American mission. And also
5 the European monitors were there, as we called them.
6 Q. All right. Tell me, how could they move about, the members of
7 these missions, in your area, in those five municipalities?
8 A. The members of the missions in fact had full control, unrestricted
9 control and unrestricted movement unless their movement was restricted by
10 members of the KLA. That I don't know. But in our territory, they had
11 full freedom of movement and full cooperation from us. The police had
12 orders to accommodate them always and to help them whenever they required
13 assistance. As a matter of fact, the Ministry of the Interior had a set
14 of instructions in terms of conduct towards members of the missions, and
15 these instructions were received by each and every policeman, and they
16 acted accordingly. That is to say that they freely moved about the entire
18 Q. Unrestricted?
19 A. Unrestricted.
20 Q. Did the police give advance notice to the members of the
21 Verification Mission about their activities?
22 A. According to the instructions, it was the obligation and duty of
23 the police to inform them in advance of their activities, and that was
24 done in every situation.
25 Q. All right. Did the members of the Verification Mission attend
1 various activities of the Ministry of the Interior?
2 A. Yes. It depended on what they wanted, and for the most part they
3 did attend.
4 Q. The members of the Verification Mission, did they visit the
5 various facilities of the Ministry of the Interior?
6 A. Yes. They had the right to enter any facility at their own free
7 will and to inspect it, a police station, any police unit. They did not
8 have to announce this in advance. They could come unannounced. They came
9 to see me too.
10 Q. All right. Tell me, who were the main victims of the KLA attack
11 while the Verification Mission was in your area?
12 A. The police and civilians. There were attacks against the police.
13 There were attacks against civilians. Several Albanians were killed in
14 that period. The members of the so-called KLA violated the ceasefire - I
15 have to use that expression - more than 50 times.
16 Q. You're talking about Pec only?
17 A. Yes, yes. They attacked the police and civilians. They violated
18 the ceasefire in the presence of the Verification Mission.
19 As for the on-site investigations that were carried out, the
20 members of the mission who could attend could see for themselves that this
21 was done by the so-called KLA. Quite simply, in the territory that they
22 held, they would shoot at a vehicle. They would kill an Albanian. When
23 we would examine the bullet-riddled vehicle, we would see that this was
24 undoubtedly done by members of the so-called KLA, and they were even
25 wearing uniforms. This went by unpunished. We were criticised all the
1 time by this mission, though.
2 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic, I'm concerned that you may have
3 evidence to adduce from this witness which may be very relevant to some of
4 the paragraphs in the indictment, but it is not being led.
5 Now, he has just said in response to your question as to who were
6 the main victims of the KLA attack, he says there were attacks against
7 civilians and several Albanians were killed, and there are many paragraphs
8 in the indictment that allege that Serb forces killed Albanians and
9 civilians. Those are acts that the indictment attributes to you. So that
10 if he has evidence that relates to any of these attacks, then you should
11 lead it, but leading it in this very general way will not advance your
12 case very much, in my view, at any rate. You should relate it to the
13 districts, the villages that are mentioned in the indictment.
14 For example, earlier he also said that the Serbian authorities in
15 Kosovo launched anti-terrorist drives, and it may be that in the course of
16 these drives there were conflicts, and in the conflicts Albanians and
17 civilians were killed. That would also be very relevant if you can relate
18 that to specific paragraphs in the indictment.
19 And please understand that I'm not saying that you have to do
20 anything. The system that we have here is that you can remain silent,
21 although I acknowledge that given your proclivity for loquacity that might
22 be difficult. You can remain silent and still walk free at the end of the
23 day here because the burden is on the Prosecution. But to the extent that
24 you are advancing a defence, I'm concerned as to whether it's being put in
25 the best way, because you need to relate it more specifically to the
1 paragraphs in the indictment which relate to attacks by Serb forces on
2 specific villages. And all you have to do is to throw a reasonable doubt
3 on those allegations, because at the end of the day we'll have to be
4 satisfied beyond a reasonable doubt about the truth of the allegations in
5 the indictment, and if you have evidence that can refute that, to show
6 that there was a conflict that either the Serb forces were responding to
7 an attack at a particular village or that they were proactive by launching
8 an anti-terrorist drive in the fulfilment of their lawful duties, and in
9 the course of that Albanians and civilians were killed, then I think that
10 may very well raise a reasonable doubt about the truthfulness of the
11 allegations in the indictment. But this has to be done in a more specific
12 way. It has to be done by relating the evidence to the villages and the
13 districts that are mentioned in the indictment.
14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I hope, Mr. Robinson, that what the
15 witness is saying is very clear and that it abundantly demonstrates how
16 widespread this efficient commission by crimes by the KLA was in the
17 region that the witness is testifying about.
18 JUDGE ROBINSON: It may very well do that. But as to whether it
19 demonstrates the same thing in relation to a specific village that is the
20 subject of an allegation in the indictment is another matter.
21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Some things are mentioned and others
22 are not. I shall remind you, though, Mr. Robinson, that during the
23 examination of the previous witness, who was from Pec and who was a victim
24 whose son was killed in Cafe Panda, that was Mr. Gvozdenovic, Mr. Saxon
25 claimed that it was precisely in the area of Pec, where this witness is
1 from, and he quoted a document at that, asserting that, that a major
2 deportation was carried out, or as he put it, ethnic cleansing of
3 Albanians in the area.
4 At that critical time, the witness was in that area. So I believe
5 it is highly relevant for us to hear what he has to say about this. I'm
6 not going to ask him about individual crimes at the time. After all, the
7 Verification Mission also conducted on-site investigations. But I will
8 have to ask him about this, about these persecutions and deportations,
9 because you know full well in this alleged indictment there are
10 large-scale deportations and persecutions that are referred to, carried
11 out by the authorities, that is to say the military and the police, as it
12 says here.
13 JUDGE ROBINSON: Very well. Continue, Mr. Milosevic.
14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I tried to find this very
15 specifically as far as deportations are concerned. I tried to find Pec,
16 although Mr. Saxon said last time that in Pec the largest scale and most
17 successful deportation was carried out in Pec, but Pec is not mentioned in
18 this indictment.
19 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
20 Q. Decani is in your territory, isn't it?
21 A. Yes. At first it was, but not now.
22 Q. All right. So not at that time. Then Djakovica? Djakovica is in
23 your territory?
24 A. Not later. Pec, Istok, and Klina were.
25 Q. All right. As for this assertion made by Mr. Saxon at our last
1 sitting that it was in Pec that the most successful ethnic cleansing was
2 carried out, I think that this is sufficiently relevant and that we should
3 hear what this witness knows about that.
4 Colonel, tell us, please, when did citizens of Albanian ethnicity
5 start leaving Kosovo?
6 A. It is hard to give an exact date. They started leaving Kosovo and
7 Metohija as far as back as 1998, in larger numbers, I mean. I already
8 spoke about that. Particularly in the spring and summer of 1998. We
9 registered that at police checkpoints. It was a process, and it went on
10 in 1998 and in 1999.
11 Q. All right. Let us just make a distinction. You explained a few
12 moments ago when you said that they were leaving at the time and that you
13 established that at checkpoints, they were leaving primarily in order to
14 avoid conscription.
15 A. That's right.
16 Q. Conscription into the KLA?
17 A. And payments to the KLA, and also they were concerned. They were
18 afraid for their own lives.
19 Q. What about Serbs and other non-Albanians? Were they leaving
20 Kosovo at that time in 1998 when this was this wave of departures of
21 Albanians because they were threatened by the KLA?
22 A. Yes, yes. A great many Serbs also left Pec. Some took their
23 wives and children from Pec, left them with their relatives in Serbia, in
24 Sumadija or in Montenegro, and they returned to the area. They were
25 worried about their wives and children.
1 I already mentioned that on the 6th of July, 1998, that we engaged
2 in fighting on the outskirts of Pec or in the suburbs of Pec. They were
3 afraid that the terrorists would take the town, and that is when both
4 Serbs and Albanians left the area.
5 Q. All right. As for the area of Pec in 1998 -- when I say the area
6 of Pec, I always mean the area of responsibility of the SUP of Pec, so I
7 don't mean only the municipality of Pec but your entire area of
8 responsibility. Were there any displaced persons there at that time?
9 A. Yes, yes. There were displaced Serbs and Albanians.
10 Q. Why? Why were these persons displaced? Why did they leave their
11 houses, their homes, their villages?
12 A. They feared for their lives. They feared that they would be
13 killed or wounded.
14 Q. All right. You said that displaced persons included both Serbs
15 and Albanians. Where were they in the area of the SUP of Pec?
16 A. For the most part, it depended on where people could stay. Some
17 were put up by their relatives in Pec, some by relatives in other villages
18 where security was less threatened. That's as far as Pec and Kosovo and
19 Metohija were concerned. A significant number were even abroad, people
20 who had relatives abroad.
21 Q. Tell me, did the state organs help displaced persons?
22 A. Yes. A few moments ago, we saw the statement of one of these
23 displaced persons where he said that he was held by the police. And it
24 wasn't only the police. It was the social welfare service and other
25 organisations that provided them with food, medical care. So it was not
1 only the job of the police but of the entire state administration.
2 Q. Colonel, were measures taken to have the displaced persons
3 returned to their homes?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. What kind of measures?
6 A. In order for them to return to their homes, the territory had to
7 be deblocked first and foremost. They could not go back to their homes if
8 they were in the territory that was held by the so-called KLA. There were
9 terrorist actions there, and anti-terrorist action had to be taken in
10 order to deblock the area, to create a situation of safety and security so
11 these people could go back to their homes. Then the return of these
12 persons started from the places where they had been staying, especially
13 people who were staying out in the open after they had fled. This was the
14 end of the summer. Autumn was starting. The weather would become most
16 Q. Did you take part in any one of these activities aimed at
17 returning displaced persons to their homes?
18 A. Yes, I did. Yes. Not only myself, but others. There were many
19 participants involved. I am one of the participants in one of these
21 It was from the area of the municipality of Decani. There were
22 displaced persons from the municipality of Pec who were staying in the
23 municipality of Decani. There were many of them there.
24 My orders were to go to that village of Istinic, to report to
25 General Stevanovic in order to take part in a particular assignment. I
1 went there, I reported to him, and he said that he had a terrible problem,
2 that the return of these persons could not be conducted properly because
3 there weren't enough vehicles. They tried to carry this through. They
4 engaged a few buses on the previous day, but there would be a great many
5 persons who would board a bus, and the roads were bad. It was my
6 understanding that that was the situation, and I said to General
7 Stevanovic that before that he had to carry out certain organisational
9 I went back to Pec. I called various transportation companies,
10 asking them to have buses made available to us. We didn't want the same
11 situation as the previous day to occur again, and then I had to put a
12 policeman on each and every bus so that the drivers would not run away
14 The policemen were given a clear task that this had to be done
15 until people returned home. I went to Istinic again with that team and I
16 reported to General Stevanovic, who was on his feet all the time. He was
17 in charge of this job lest there be any kind of mistake. Everything was
18 therefore under absolute control. He regulated how this would take place.
19 There were men, women, and children involved. Probably among them were
20 members of the so-called KLA as well. We saw that from the weapons that
21 they left behind in the area.
22 Then the convoys set out. There were also ox carts and tractors.
23 Some people walked.
24 I also set out for Pec. As I drove by these vehicles with the
25 displaced persons, I saw that the beginning of the column was in Pec, and
1 they were still leaving the area of Istinic, and the distance involved is
2 about 18 kilometres. That is to say that the column was about 20
3 kilometres long for sure.
4 Q. And where did these people go?
5 A. They went to their homes. Some of the houses were probably
6 destroyed or damaged, but they did return to the places where they used to
7 live before, before they had fled.
8 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Paponjak, when was this?
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think it was September 1998. And
10 why do I think that? I can --
11 JUDGE BONOMY: Okay. That's sufficient for me. May I express a
12 personal -- personal concern that we're approaching four hours into this
13 evidence, and I think there's hardly been a reference to 1999, which is
14 the period covered by the indictment, and I simply make the remark to
15 express my concern in the hope that Mr. Milosevic might take some heed of
17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Bonomy, but I do
18 believe these things are not separable from each other.
19 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
20 Q. What were the reasons for Albanians to leave Kosovo before the
22 A. Well, fear from the bombing. That applied not only to Albanians.
23 We were all afraid.
24 Q. Now I am talking only Albanians, only about Albanians. Where did
25 Albanians from the area of responsibility of the Pec SUP go?
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 A. They went to Montenegro. I'm trying to visualise it on the map.
2 They went to the Sumadija area in Serbia. They went to Macedonia.
3 Depending on where they had relatives and family.
4 Q. Did some go to Albania?
5 A. Yes, to Albania too. They went in different directions.
6 Q. I have just found what I was unable to find before when I went
7 through these documents. That is para 63(a).
8 Colonel, I will read out to you something that I believe is
9 directly and fully relevant. It is actually subparagraph (e). It says
11 "On or about 27 and 28 March, 1999, in the city of Pec forces of
12 the FRY and Serbia went from house to house, forcing Kosovo Albanians to
13 leave. Some houses were set on fire, and a number of people were shot.
14 Soldiers and police were stationed along every street, directing the
15 Kosovo Albanians toward the town centre. Once the people reached the
16 centre of town, those without cars or vehicles were forced to get on buses
17 or trucks and were driven to the town of Prizren. Outside Prizren, the
18 Kosovo Albanians were forced to get off the buses and trucks and walk
19 approximately 15 kilometres to the Albanian border where, prior to
20 crossing the border, they were ordered to turn their identification papers
21 over to forces of the FRY and Serbia."
22 So this is an example relating to your area, and similar
23 allegations are made in respect of all the other cases of what is alleged
24 to be forced deportation. So the allegation is that the army and the
25 police deported Albanians. Another allegation made here in many different
1 occasions is that Albanians were made to flee, and they fled to Serbia and
3 What was the army in Serbia and Montenegro? Was it the same army
4 that allegedly forced them to leave Kosovo?
5 A. I really can't understand that.
6 Q. I will ask you, since you were there on the spot in Pec, to tell
7 us what really happened. As far as Serbs are concerned, it is not alleged
8 here that the army and the police made them to flee. The allegation seems
9 to be that Serbs left on their own while Albanians were deported. Why did
10 both Albanians and Serbs leave?
11 A. When the state of war was proclaimed and when the bombing began on
12 the 24th of March, chaos reigned together with panic. People could see on
13 television the same evening, on the 24th of March, and I saw that myself,
14 that entire complexes of buildings were in flames, and everybody was
15 concerned that the same thing was going to happen to them. Everybody was
16 concerned about their families, including us policemen. We were concerned
17 for our children, and everybody tried to take at least children somewhere
18 safe if they couldn't leave themselves. So they took them to Montenegro
19 because of some rumours they had all heard before that Montenegro would
20 not be bombed, only Serbia would be bombed. That's why people tried to
21 take their wives and children to Montenegro, even if they had no family
23 Policemen were required to work more intensively, longer hours,
24 because everybody knows what happens when the war starts. Burglaries,
25 thefts, looting are on the rise. We had our hands full. Many reports
1 were made, and every policeman wanted some time off to take their family
2 out of Kosovo, and we had difficulty approving all these applications, and
3 still they all managed to take their families somewhere safe.
4 In Pec, the movement of people in all directions was more intense
5 than usual. We had increased movement of uniformed men. Mobilisation was
6 intensified. People had uniforms at home. They would put on those
7 uniforms, and those who are engaged in any kind of military affairs know
8 that mobilisation is not carried out all over the place, but people are
9 told instead to gather at a single assembly point.
10 Everything was so crowded that you couldn't tell who was going
11 where. An observer who was trying to make out what was going on had a
12 very difficult time understanding, and we were required to regulate the
13 movement of all these people and even, as required, to protect particular
14 buildings from terrorist attack.
15 On the 24th March in the evening, I myself told some civilians who
16 approached us policemen to get away from us because we would not openly be
17 targeted by bombing, we would also be the favourite target of terrorists.
18 We took up our usual positions. We didn't take any new positions.
19 Those positions were determined by security estimates and assessments
20 where police presence was required. The role of the traffic police was to
21 stop vehicles and pedestrians, to check drivers' licenses and IDs, and the
22 role of the regular police was to detect persons who were being searched
23 for --
24 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic, it's time for a question.
25 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
1 Q. So, Colonel, during those days, if I understand what you just
2 said, would it be correct to say that both Serbs and Albanians were
3 fleeing the bombing?
4 A. Absolutely true.
5 Q. Very well. Having read to you this para 63(e) -- we have to take
6 things in a certain order. It says here some houses were set on fire and
7 several persons were shot. That means in Pec in those critical days
8 houses were set on fire and a number of people were shot.
9 A. Shot by whom?
10 Q. Wait for me to finish the question. In this tab 1, under 1.4, do
11 we have the list of all security related incidents involving loss of life
12 in your area, in the area of your Secretariat of the Interior --
13 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Nice.
14 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
15 Q. -- a chronological list of all incidents?
16 MR. NICE: It's normal hour of rising. Simply an administrative
17 point I should make: I don't know how long the accused is going to be
18 with his examination of this witness. All I do know is that when he
19 finishes I shall have to decide as between using time to cross-examine on
20 the matters that he's dealt with already or on other matters, and I
21 haven't made any decisions on that. It's entirely conceivable that
22 cross-examination on some of the matters that he's raised today simply I
23 won't be ready for them tomorrow because I won't be in a position to take
24 a position, so I might find myself asking for adjournment of, in any
25 event, part of the cross-examination. I very much hope not, but I just
1 raise it as a possibility so that if the accused forecasts finishing with
2 this witness early tomorrow, he and those advising him might need to have
3 another witness available for tomorrow.
4 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. We have another matter tomorrow as well.
5 MR. NICE: I forgot.
6 JUDGE BONOMY: Is there really anything in what we've heard today
7 that requires cross-examination?
8 MR. NICE: Well, there may well be not, Your Honour, but in any
9 case, I'm just explaining that that would, of course, be another reason
10 for the accused having another witness here. One way and another, I'd ask
11 him to have that in mind, because last week we lost an entire session for
12 lack of witness availability, or lack of witness readiness. I don't know
13 against whose account that is being counted but it would be very
14 unfortunate if it happened again tomorrow.
15 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. We'll bear that in mind, Mr. Nice.
16 It's now time for the adjournment. We could spend another five
17 minutes. Another five minutes, Mr. Milosevic.
18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] For instance, Mr. Robinson, just one
19 key point: In 63(e), it says that a number of people were shot.
20 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
21 Q. Colonel, is it the case that here in tab 1.4 we have a
22 chronological list of all incidents involving loss of life, even if a
23 person died in a hospital?
24 A. Yes. Yes, we can find that under that tab.
25 Q. Can we see, for instance, from number 113, under number 113, even
1 though it's not translated, we can see the number and the date. That's
2 where the 24th March begins, and then it goes on. Let us see, since we
3 have the 27th, the 28th, and other dates here, we can see that on the 27th
4 a member of the army of Yugoslavia was killed, Srdjan, son of Radmilo,
5 Milosevic. It says on the 27th of March, one soldier killed. On the 28th
6 -- the previous incident I mentioned was in Klina, not in Pec.
7 In Istok on the 28th, another Serb was killed, Bratislav Radnic.
8 In Celopek, near Pec, on the 30th of March, Milos Otovic, Veljko Petrovic,
9 member of the army, was killed in Kapusnica [phoen]. On the 31st of March
10 two persons killed; Dragan Makic and Sladjan Stosic, lieutenant. A number
11 of people with less serious injuries. Serbs.
12 The first Albanian casualty is on the 1st of April. Adem Seljmaj,
13 killed from a small calibre gun. His wife, Rahima Gashi, a civilian. It
14 goes on to mention the criminal report made, et cetera. A common law
15 marriage was involved in this case.
16 And then again on the 1st of April another policeman was killed,
17 Igor Urosevic. 1st of April another Serbian casualty. On the 2nd of
18 April, Serbian casualty, and so on. And only on the 2nd of April in Pec,
19 in the settlement of Kakaric, a member of the KLA, Ahmet Hasani, from Pec,
20 was killed. As we can see from here, this was the first person killed --
21 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic, a question.
22 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
23 Q. Thus, if it says in the indictment that on the 27th and 28th
24 March, 1999, a number of people were shot by the army and the police,
25 would then somebody be killed in Pec in those days if the army and the
1 police were shooting?
2 A. Certainly.
3 Q. Well, did anyone get killed in Pec during those days? We have the
4 documentation here.
5 A. No.
6 Q. Do you know of anyone who fired a gun in Pec in those first days
7 when the bombing began, when people were fleeing Pec?
8 A. I have no such information. Maybe there was some sporadic
9 shooting, but not targeted shooting at specific persons.
10 Q. Well, we see from these documents that nobody was killed. Do you
11 remember any shooting?
12 A. Well, it's difficult for me to say whether there was any shooting
13 on that day in particular because there was shooting all the time. We're
14 talking about a plane here. Any shooting is heard at several kilometres
16 Q. But in these particular days quoted here, can you tell us that
17 nobody got hurt?
18 A. Correct.
19 Q. Well, it says here that a number of people were shot. It says so
20 in the indictment, and we can establish whether they were or they were
21 not. It also says that houses were set on fire. Did anyone from the army
22 or the police set a single house on fire in Pec?
23 A. No. Neither the police nor the army ever did anything of the
25 Q. Were there any fires in Pec at the time? And let us be precise:
1 We are talking about the 27th and the 28th of March when great masses of
2 people were gathering in the centre of Pec town. Were there any fires?
3 A. Yes, there were fires.
4 Q. Where?
5 A. Somewhere on the outskirts. You could see them.
6 Q. Very well. Did fire brigades intervene?
7 A. No.
8 Q. Why didn't they?
9 A. Well, they were unable to go there.
10 Q. Why were they unable; for security reasons or --
11 A. What do you mean why? The moment we moved to go anywhere, we get
12 shot at. How can we send fire brigades? Fire brigades are not members of
13 the SUP.
14 Q. All fire brigades, as we know, are parts of the Ministry of the
15 Interior. If the fire brigades were unable to go to those areas where
16 there were fires because they were shot at the moment they tried, was
17 anyone able to go there to set a house on fire in those areas controlled
18 by the KLA?
19 A. Nobody from our side could do that.
20 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic, there are about five other
21 allegations in 65(e). You can just go through them in the seven remaining
22 minutes before 2.00 and close your examination of this witness. That
23 would be a very good use of the time. He's from Pec, and he can testify
24 as to these allegations.
25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well. Let us deal with all the
1 allegations. We have dealt with the shooting. There were no casualties
2 among Albanians, no wounded, no killed. We have dealt with arsons.
3 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
4 Q. Now, I'm looking at all the allegations here. Are you aware that
5 policemen and soldiers were deployed in every street and forcing Kosovo
6 Albanians to leave?
7 A. There were no soldiers deployed. Policemen were deployed but not
8 in every street. They were deployed in intersections where they performed
9 their regular job, but there were no troops, no army troops around.
10 MR. NICE: But the deportation allegation, that they were forcing
11 people to go to the town centre and then, once there, forced them to get
12 on buses and being driven to Prizren, can you comment on that?
13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] That is precisely what I was going
14 to ask him. Precisely.
15 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
16 Q. Regarding the deployment of the police, we have clarified that
17 there was no army, whereas the police occupied its normal posts to
18 regulate traffic.
19 A. Correct.
20 Q. How many policemen were there on that day in the centre of Pec, in
21 total, where they performed their regular jobs?
22 A. I don't know about that day. I can tell you the total number --
23 Q. Tell us the maximum possible number of policemen that could have
24 been present in the broader centre of Pec.
25 A. There could have been no more than 50 in total in the broader
1 centre, depending on what you call the broader centre. We had certain
2 permanent police posts that were always manned by the police to control
3 movement of vehicles and persons. We had certain restrictions. We could
4 not man more posts even if we had wanted to. We work in four or five
5 shifts. We have a certain available number of policemen that we divide
6 into four or five shifts, and that's all we can do.
7 Q. So they were occupying their regular police posts.
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. All right. We clarified this. Now, tell me, do you know whether
10 anyone forced Albanians to board buses or trucks in order to leave Kosovo
11 and Metohija?
12 A. No. Why buses or trucks? They could move around any way they
13 pleased. They could go in their own carts, in their own cars, in their ox
14 carts, in tractors. Why would anybody force them onto buses?
15 Q. I'm just pointing to this sentence from 63(e) which says, "Once
16 the people reached the centre of town, those without cars or vehicles were
17 forced to get on buses or trucks and were driven to the town of Prizren."
18 I have quoted to you this entire sentence. Tell me, is this true or not?
19 A. First of all, it doesn't make sense to me. It seems to say that
20 these people first arrived into the centre of town and then those who did
21 not have cars were forced to board buses.
22 Q. Are you now referring to what I just quoted? Is that true or not
24 A. I don't even understand what is meant by this allegation. So in
25 order for this to be true, somebody was standing in the centre of town to
1 establish who had a car and who didn't. If you had a car, you could go on
2 and if you didn't have a car, you had to go onto the bus.
3 JUDGE ROBINSON: Do you know or did you hear of Albanians getting
4 on buses and trucks and getting out of the town of -- and getting out of
5 the town and moving -- and going on to Prizren?
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I neither saw nor heard anybody
7 boarding buses, but I heard that people left by bus. People left in their
8 own passenger cars, in their ox carts, tractors, buses as well. I haven't
9 heard of anybody who left by truck, but that also is possible because I
10 wouldn't have been able to see anybody under a tarpaulin.
11 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
12 Q. Please. There is one question that is critical here: Did anyone
13 force an Albanian to board a bus in order to leave?
14 A. I know nothing about that. I never heard or saw anything of the
16 Q. You said there was no army around. Was any policeman performing
17 the job of forcing Albanians to board buses in order to leave?
18 A. Well, the police was regulating traffic and performing all the
19 other normal police work; protecting lives, protecting property, but that
20 did not include putting people on buses.
21 JUDGE ROBINSON: Where exactly were you on the 27th and 28th of
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That was probably the day when the
24 centre of Pec was so terribly overcrowded. On that day, I was in the
25 centre of Pec, and I was moving along other roads. There were
1 bottlenecks. During those days, I even went to Kula, which is a pass
2 leading to Montenegro. All the streets were completed flooded with
4 JUDGE ROBINSON: What were you doing on those days?
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was giving instructions to the
6 traffic police to take up posts in a certain place, to accelerate the
7 movement of vehicles. For instance, in the control post at Savine Vode, I
8 told policemen to simplify the procedure of control to let a maximum
9 number of vehicles through towards Kula, because this is an uphill road.
10 Movement is very slow. So if you stop a vehicle --
11 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic, we're coming -- I want you could
12 conclude your examination-in-chief, and then tomorrow or the next day that
13 we meet we'll deal with the exhibits.
14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I have quite a number of questions
15 left to ask this witness.
16 JUDGE ROBINSON: [Previous translation continues] ... of this
17 witness's testimony, and I will only allow you to ask any further
18 questions if they are relevant.
19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can I continue?
20 JUDGE ROBINSON: For another three minutes, yes.
21 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
22 Q. All right. To make this absolutely precise, at the time you were
23 chief of traffic police.
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. You regulated traffic as usual?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. The only difference is when there are more crowds and when there
3 are less.
4 A. Yes. And then we try to divert traffic to different directions.
5 Q. Do you know about gatherings of Albanians in the centre of Pec
6 and their departure?
7 A. I'm trying to remember that precise date, but I know that during
8 those days there were intense crowds.
9 Q. You said that you were in a particular place yourself. Where did
10 the citizens gather?
11 A. On the square in the centre of Pec.
12 Q. Where did they come from?
13 A. From various parts of the town and from villages. That's what I
14 know from reports from my patrols.
15 Q. How many civilians were there in the centre?
16 A. The square was full. In my own estimate, there were about 10.000
18 Q. Did anyone address the citizens?
19 A. I do not know the Albanian language. There were some speeches
20 made. I don't know what those people were saying. I don't know even who
21 they were. This was not an organised rally so that we would know from an
22 announcement who was going to hold speeches. There were some shouts and
23 speeches through the bullhorn, but I don't know what was being said.
24 Q. That was unofficial talk between them, but did any authorities
25 address them?
1 A. No. There were no authorities present.
2 Q. Did any citizens address you personally?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. What did they ask you?
5 A. They were questions that I couldn't understand even at the time,
6 but I later understood what they meant. They asked me whether they could
7 go to Montenegro in their own cars. I couldn't understand why on earth
8 they were asking me that. I told them simply that they were free to go
9 wherever they pleased and using whatever vehicle they wanted to.
10 Q. All right. They asked you whether they could take cars to
11 Montenegro and go to Montenegro by car and you said that they could go
12 wherever they wanted to go.
13 A. Yes. They were asking whether the police or the military would
14 prevent them from doing so, and our answer was that no one would restrict
15 them in any way, either if they wanted to move towards Montenegro or other
16 parts of the country.
17 Q. All right. Tell me, please --
18 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
19 JUDGE ROBINSON: We have to stop now. We have gone 20 minutes
20 beyond the break. There is another matter that the Chamber will be
21 hearing tomorrow, but the parties should be on standby for the resumption
22 of this case in the event that that becomes possible. I hope that is
24 We are adjourned.
25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I just wanted to ask something. Do
1 you have something different going on tomorrow morning?
2 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, we do. Yes. But you have to be on standby
3 in the event that that matter concludes in sufficient time for us to
4 continue this hearing. And the Registry will take care of logistical
6 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at
7 2.06 p.m., sine die.