Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 39892

1 Thursday, 26 May 2005

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 [The witness entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 9.04 a.m.

6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Milosevic.


8 [Witness answered through interpreter]

9 Examined by Mr. Milosevic: [Continued]

10 Q. [No interpretation]

11 JUDGE ROBINSON: We're not having any translation.

12 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters cannot hear the speaker either.

13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Is it all right now?

14 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters note yes.

15 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

16 Q. General, what do you know about the killing of civilians in

17 Mitrovica on the 15th of May, 1999?

18 A. I know that on that day in Mitrovica two or three civilians were

19 killed by members of the reserve force of the unit for special operations.

20 According to what I know, it was first identified as a case with NN

21 perpetrators, perpetrators unknown; and later on, through police work, the

22 perpetrators were identified, a criminal report was filed against them,

23 they were arrested and handed over to the appropriate judicial

24 authorities.

25 JUDGE ROBINSON: General, were you there?

Page 39893

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

2 JUDGE ROBINSON: Well, then, you must let us know how you got your

3 information. That enables us better to determine what weight to attach to

4 it, and Mr. Milosevic knows that.

5 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

6 Q. Please look at tab 171. Is the criminal report that you referred

7 to contained in that tab? Criminal report. You say that the killing took

8 place on the 15th, that it was established that the perpetrator was

9 unknown, and that later light was shed on it. Can we see that the

10 criminal report is dated the 19th of May?

11 A. Yes, in this tab 171. The SUP in Kosovska Mitrovica sent the

12 criminal report to the district public prosecutor on the 19th of May, and

13 then we see enclosed a copy of the criminal report itself on a few pages,

14 specifically five pages.

15 Q. Since that happened on the 15th and the criminal report was

16 already on the 19th, that means that within those four days the

17 perpetrator was found and the criminal report was filed?

18 A. Yes. The perpetrator was found very quickly, and the criminal

19 report was filed as well.

20 MR. NICE: No translation of this document, I think.

21 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

22 Q. There is also a decision here, a decision on detention.

23 A. Yes, that's right, within that same tab. There are two

24 decisions --

25 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic. General, please wait.

Page 39894

1 There's no translation. We must make a decision as to how that is

2 to be dealt with.

3 Mr. Milosevic, how many pages do you intend to rely on in this

4 untranslated document?

5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, it could be placed on the

6 ELMO, the first page of the criminal report, and then the description of

7 the crime is not really needed. After that, in the same tab, there is a

8 decision on detention. The form is the regular police form used.

9 JUDGE ROBINSON: Very well. Let the first page be placed on the

10 ELMO.

11 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

12 Q. General, you said that the killing took place on the 15th of May,

13 and what's the date of the criminal report?

14 A. It can be seen on the criminal report here the 19th of May, 1999.

15 Q. Who is the criminal report addressed to?

16 A. The district public attorney of Kosovska Mitrovica.

17 Q. Who sent it?

18 A. The Secretariat of the Interior of Kosovska Mitrovica.

19 Q. Are the names of the accused persons mentioned here?

20 A. Yes. Veselinovic Goran, and number 2, Todosijevic Dragan; and it

21 can be seen that both of them are in detention.

22 Q. All right. From the criminal report we can see that they are both

23 already arrested and that that is when the charges were filed. And what

24 follows?

25 A. That they committed a killing in accordance with Article 47,

Page 39895

1 paragraph 2 of the Criminal Code of the Republic of Serbia. Around 1700

2 hours in the street of Ivo Andric --

3 Q. We don't need to proceed. Does this tab also contain a decision

4 on their detention?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Can you place it on the ELMO.

7 A. I can.

8 Q. Is this the regular form for this kind of decision?

9 A. Yes. Also, the Secretariat of the Interior in Kosovska Mitrovica

10 on the 17th of May, and we can see that these two perpetrators are to be

11 placed on remand.

12 Q. All right. And what does it say? What is the crime committed?

13 A. Murder.

14 Q. The next decision is the same, isn't it?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. That's why we're not going to put it on the ELMO. Does it have

17 signatures, numbers, dates, et cetera?

18 A. Yes, including the signatures of the perpetrators that they

19 received this decision.

20 Q. Oh, that they received this decision.

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. On the 15th the event happened, on the 17th they were arrested,

23 on the 19th charges were filed.

24 What do you know about the killing of civilians in Orahovac on the

25 9th of May, 1999?

Page 39896

1 A. I had also been informed that on that day a killing had been

2 committed of two civilians, at least, and after that, when the crime was

3 fully investigated, I was informed by the people in Prizren that the

4 perpetrators were an active member of the police force and a reserve

5 member -- a member of the reserve police force.

6 Q. Can you please put the criminal report on the ELMO.

7 A. I can.

8 Q. The two killings took place on the 9th.

9 A. I think that both took place on the 9th.

10 Q. All right. The criminal report was filed on the 15th.

11 A. Yes. But this criminal report --

12 MR. NICE: I have --

13 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

14 Q. Tab 173.

15 A. Tab 173.

16 JUDGE ROBINSON: 173, no translation.

17 MR. NICE: Your Honour, it's going to be very difficult to deal

18 with these documents. I don't know, first of all, what the accused is

19 attempting to prove through them.

20 JUDGE ROBINSON: Let me just ask him. I was going to ask.

21 What does this go to, Mr. Milosevic? Is it to show that the

22 police acted properly in carrying out investigations and making arrests,

23 or does it go to a specific incident in the indictment?

24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I want to show on the basis of these

25 documents that the police did their work efficiently. You can see that

Page 39897

1 the perpetrators of crimes are apprehended within a few days only. Also,

2 these perpetrators were members of the police force. Since they were

3 found within only a few days, obviously the police did not hesitate at all

4 to act in accordance with the law as far as its own members were

5 concerned.

6 May I draw your attention to the fact that this is mid-May 1999.

7 The NATO aggression was at its height, and also the clash with the KLA.

8 So even under all these circumstances, the police was working very

9 efficiently. Otherwise, yesterday you refused to admit those documents

10 that have to do with the NATO bombing, the bridge in Luzane.

11 I have just one more reason to add to you in favour of admitting

12 it. You can see there that the police identically investigated on-site

13 crimes committed by NATO and crimes committed by anyone else. You can see

14 quite clearly the pattern of police work in terms of on-site

15 investigations and everything else that sheds light on a crime committed.

16 It's not only that NATO was accused of having committed this but the

17 pattern of policework was exactly the same in case of dealing with all

18 crimes, especially those involving loss of life.

19 JUDGE ROBINSON: I take that, Mr. Milosevic, as a motion for

20 reconsideration. We are more familiar with such a motion coming from the

21 Prosecutor. We will have regard to it, but I make no ruling on that now.

22 Well, we now know why you're leading the evidence. What's your

23 next question?

24 In relation to tab 173, which is not translated, we may place that

25 on the -- we could place that on the ELMO, the section that you wish to

Page 39898

1 refer to.

2 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

3 Q. General, have you got it in front of you?

4 A. Yes, on the overhead projector.

5 Q. That's a criminal report?

6 A. Yes, that's right. Against perpetrators unknown, because on the

7 15th of May, there was no knowledge as to the identity of the

8 perpetrators.

9 Q. What can be seen on the basis of this document?

10 A. The next document is a supplement to the criminal report and it

11 shows that the crime was fully investigated and that the perpetrators were

12 found. I can place that on the ELMO too.

13 So the date here is the 21st of May.

14 Q. That is to say six days after the criminal report was filed.

15 A. Yes, that's right.

16 Q. Six days after a criminal report was filed against perpetrators

17 unknown.

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Does it say here that this is a supplement to the criminal report?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And it can be seen now that the crime was fully investigated and

22 that the perpetrators were found, Boban Petkovic and Simic, I think his

23 first name is Djordje, if I can read it well. And it can be seen that

24 they are the persons who perpetrated the previously registered crime.

25 Further on in this tab there are decisions on detention?

Page 39899

1 A. Yes, that's right, for both perpetrators in detention, and also an

2 order to the prison administration to take them into prison. This is one

3 decision on remanding them into custody.

4 Q. They're both identical --

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. -- in terms of form and substance?

7 A. Yes. And these again are two decisions instructing prison

8 authorities to admit them.

9 Q. Very well. What knowledge do you have, if any, about killings of

10 civilians in Zegra near Gnjilane?

11 A. I had information from daily reports about these killings. Two

12 civilians, I believe, were killed and the perpetrators of this crime were

13 members of the army of Yugoslavia.

14 Q. In tabs 175 and 176, can we find documents related to official

15 action with regard to these events?

16 A. In tab 176 we see the criminal report filed and decisions to place

17 in remand.


19 MR. NICE: We're moving at some speed and there was a reference to

20 the next document, but I take it that 174 is not being covered at all.

21 We're moving straight on to 175.

22 JUDGE ROBINSON: I would take that too.

23 MR. NICE: Thank you. And I must repeat the obvious, that even

24 though these reports may be peripheral to the allegations -- not

25 peripheral but not central to the allegations in the indictment, it is

Page 39900

1 essential, if I'm to deal with them properly, that I have translated

2 versions and, what's more, have the time to consider them. And without

3 translated versions, I may be -- I'll do my best but I may be quite unable

4 to deal with these documents in any satisfactory way in cross-examination.

5 JUDGE ROBINSON: We'll deal with that when the time arrives if

6 you're in any way prejudiced, Mr. Nice.

7 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

8 Q. General, in tabs 175 and 176 -- let me take only 176, because the

9 other one contains just a report. The other one contains a whole

10 collection of documents. Could you tell me what they represent?

11 A. The first document in this tab is a document from the SUP in

12 Gnjilane, attached to which is a criminal report submitted to the military

13 prosecutor in Pristina.

14 Q. What is the date?

15 A. 2nd of April.

16 Q. When did this killing happen?

17 A. On the 31st of March, 1999.

18 Q. All right. Kindly place these documents on the overhead projector

19 one by one and explain each one of them.

20 A. I don't know if I'm placing them well. So this is the document of

21 the Secretariat of the Interior in Gnjilane, dated 2nd of April, addressed

22 to the military public prosecutor in Pristina, and it concerns

23 perpetrators of the criminal act of murder.

24 Q. The next document.

25 A. The next one is the criminal report that was attached to the

Page 39901

1 previous document.

2 Q. Again on the usual form?

3 A. Yes, the usual form. The date is the 1st of April, and this is a

4 criminal report for the crime of murder. It has several pages.

5 Q. Does it list all those involved in the investigation as well as

6 the suspects?

7 A. The perpetrators are named as well as the victims.

8 Q. This criminal report has a total of four pages.

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Does it contain all the data, all the information that the police

11 managed to collect?

12 A. Yes. Every information is provided together with the criminal

13 report, everything known about perpetrators and victims.

14 Q. Then follows some determinations, five determinations to place

15 persons on remand.

16 A. There are five because there are five perpetrators. This

17 determination is again written according to the usual form for every

18 perpetrator individually.

19 Q. And here it says, "Due to a well-based suspicion that he or she

20 committed the criminal act of murder," et cetera, et cetera.

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Thank you, General. General, how do you explain these criminal

23 acts committed by members of the police that we have just seen?

24 A. Well, the police took action regardless of who the perpetrators

25 were. It is obvious that these crimes committed by the police are cases

Page 39902

1 of excess, incidents that happen -- happened beyond any orders, beyond any

2 official policy or rules.

3 Q. And how did the local policemen react to such criminal acts

4 committed by their colleagues?

5 A. Every criminal act was treated in the same way.

6 Q. And what was the attitude of the police leadership and the

7 leadership of the state regarding the treatment of criminal acts in Kosovo

8 and Metohija?

9 A. Everywhere and at all times it was always perfectly clear that it

10 is the policy of the state authorities to have all crimes investigated as

11 soon as possible and to hand over perpetrators to the judiciary.

12 Q. Was there any difference in the treatment of criminal acts

13 committed by members of the police? Was there any pressure exerted one

14 way or another?

15 A. I know of only one such case related to the killing of this

16 Bljakcori family. The police was under a lot of pressure to have the

17 policeman concerned released because the citizenry was convinced that they

18 had not committed the crime.

19 Q. And did the police give in in the face of -- faced with such

20 pressure?

21 A. There was not enough -- there was enough evidence that the

22 policemen did commit that criminal act, and despite all the pressure

23 exerted by the citizens, they were kept in detention.

24 Q. Do you have any information - because we will have to establish

25 this, it seems - how the procedure went on after the perpetrators were

Page 39903












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 39904

1 arrested, after criminal charges were filed? Do you have any information

2 how the procedure continued before the courts?

3 A. I was not able to follow that in any detail. We can see that some

4 of these crimes were committed in the course of May. As of the 26th of

5 May, I was already getting ready for the negotiations in Kumanovo and I

6 had some personal commitments and at that time I dealt only with issues

7 related to Kumanovo agreement. Later on, as you know, the police withdrew

8 from Kosovo, local and effective control by the police was lost, and the

9 work of the judiciary was slowed down on these cases, and as I explained

10 yesterday, the procedure is still undergoing before the courts in Serbia.

11 Q. Well, complex cases related to murder are always lengthy, but they

12 are still live cases?

13 A. Yes. They are still being worked on.

14 Q. As long as we have jurisdiction. Let me just remind you, General,

15 of what you said yesterday, namely that we should find out what happens

16 before the courts. That's something Judge Robinson said.

17 I have here a page provided to me by my assistant, Mr. Rakic.

18 That's Q298306. It says: "Could the president of Yugoslavia hold a court

19 accountable if the court failed to properly apply given and military

20 laws?"

21 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic, what is this all about? You

22 appear to be making a speech.

23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I just quoted a constitutional

24 expert of the other side in response to your remark that it is necessary

25 to present evidence on what the courts did.

Page 39905

1 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreters note that we did not manage to

2 interpret everything that Mr. Milosevic quoted.

3 JUDGE ROBINSON: We won't engage in that legal discussion now.

4 Proceed with your questioning.

5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right, Mr. Robinson.

6 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

7 Q. Tell me, General, did members of the international force in Kosovo

8 and Metohija participate in any incidents involving loss of life that you

9 know of?

10 A. According to the information I obtained while I was personally

11 present in Pristina during the application of the Kumanovo agreement, I

12 know of at least one case, and this documentation contains reports on many

13 more cases.

14 Q. Are these incidents described in tabs 195 to 201?

15 A. Yes, those are the incidents. The one I know about is described

16 in 196. That one I have direct knowledge about.

17 Q. You say "direct knowledge." You must have been in some way

18 directly involved.

19 JUDGE BONOMY: Can I ask the relevance of this, particularly since

20 it looks as though we're talking about a period after 1999.

21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The relevance of this lies in the

22 comparison. Namely, if it happens that a policeman on our force kills

23 somebody, he is immediately apprehended and turned over to the judiciary.

24 However, if the same happens with a member of the international force, no

25 action is taken. I suppose that that is relevant. If it is irrelevant,

Page 39906

1 then it is up to you to prove it.

2 JUDGE ROBINSON: It is not relevant. Move on to another topic.

3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Robinson -- no.

4 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

5 Q. General, how did the NATO aggression affect the efforts of the

6 state authorities and the police force to act lawfully, to investigate

7 criminal acts, and to enforce the law in general?

8 A. The NATO aggression adversely affected the efficiency of

9 policework in all areas, especially in such incidents involving murders

10 which need to be investigated on site. That couldn't be done effectively

11 if you are constantly under fire or in danger.

12 Q. But in your opinion, in your assessment, despite the difficult

13 security conditions, did the police act with maximum efficiency possible?

14 A. Yes. The police did their best even though they were in danger of

15 being killed or wounded in the process.

16 Q. To what extent was it possible for the police to continue working

17 in Kosovo and Metohija to investigate crimes that have been recorded when

18 they lost jurisdiction?

19 A. The loss of jurisdiction seriously affected work on those 150

20 cases that we've mentioned, but there is still in our possession enough

21 material and enough evidence to continue working on them should we regain

22 the ability to do so.

23 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic, I've been wanting to say something

24 about your construction of Article 7(3) responsibility. Article 7(3)

25 responsibility relates, in my view, to the crimes with which you have been

Page 39907

1 charged. For example, count 1 charges you with deportation, count 2 with

2 other inhumane acts, counts 3 and 4 with murder. Article 7(3)

3 responsibility means that in relation to those counts you were -- you had

4 a position of superior authority and crimes were committed and you failed

5 to take the necessary and reasonable measures to prevent such acts or to

6 punish the perpetrators. So that evidence which relates generally to the

7 conduct of the police force and which generally goes to show that the

8 police force acts properly in investigating crimes and arresting offenders

9 is not very helpful to the specific charge in relation to Article 7(3),

10 because that responsibility attaches and relates to the crimes with which

11 you have been charged in the -- in the indictment.

12 It may, it may have some relevance in going to show that the

13 police had a history, a culture of proper investigation and proper

14 conduct, and you may be asking us to draw an inference from that, but it

15 is not really central to the charge of liability under Article 7(3).

16 I'd like to hear Mr. Kay on that, and Mr. Nice.

17 MR. KAY: Yes, Article 7(3), criminal responsibility for the acts

18 and conduct of subordinates. Of course it is count specific and the Court

19 will be looking at the counts and how they are dealt with in relation to

20 liability to this accused. However, the accused, if it is found that

21 crimes were committed in relation to the counts, if he was able to show

22 that there was generally a system in place, a constitutional system, a

23 lawful system, remembering that the crimes go from the bottom up, if he is

24 able to show that such a system existed, and it was reasonable, given the

25 light of the circumstances and facts as known by him, to believe that that

Page 39908

1 system was working properly, then in our submission he could not be held

2 criminally responsible for crimes committed on the ground by others if he

3 has taken the best steps and best measures to ensure that protections are

4 in place for the civil population.

5 JUDGE ROBINSON: Because the system is in place.

6 MR. KAY: Because the system is in place. Everyone would have to

7 accept that crimes can be committed. Crimes can be committed, and it's

8 the duty of the government to have in place a proper procedure to protect

9 the civilian population. If he can show that that was in place

10 constitutionally and it operated so that, as far as he knew, matters were

11 being dealt with properly, he is able to show that it would have been

12 unreasonable to expect him to know or to have been able to prevent those

13 crimes that were committed.

14 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you, Mr. Kay.

15 Mr. Nice, if you wish.

16 MR. NICE: I don't wish to add anything to that. Thank you.

17 JUDGE ROBINSON: Very well, Mr. Milosevic, continue.

18 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

19 Q. General, I'm going to ask you a few questions now with regard to

20 the sanitisation of the terrain. The concept of sanitisation of the

21 terrain is brought into -- is linked with the persons that lost their

22 lives. Now, what does this term mean, "mop-up" or "sanitisation of the

23 terrain"? Could you explain that to us.

24 A. Mop-up of the terrain, or sanitisation, is a well-known military

25 concept. Other terms might be used in other languages.

Page 39909

1 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreters note that in B/C/S the word is

2 "asanacija."

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] But "sanitisation" means the burying

4 of corpses after battle in the legally prescribed manner, as well as

5 livestock that were killed, and generally cleaning up the area from mines,

6 radioactive devices, chemical devices and dealing with the debris and

7 blockage of roads, the aim of which is to protect the people, to ensure

8 their safety and security and normal functioning of life in general and

9 communications and moving around the area.

10 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

11 Q. General, in tab 88 we have a page from the Military Encyclopedia,

12 published in 1970, and under the provision mop-up or sanitisation of the

13 terrain we find almost two columns of explanation as to what the term

14 means, the concept and the word means.

15 A. Could you repeat the number of the tab, please? I didn't hear it.

16 Q. The tab number is 88. This is a Military Encyclopedia. As I

17 said, it was published in 1970. Volume 1, page 266.

18 A. That's right. I've found that tab. For all intents and purposes

19 it's a copy of page 266 of the Military Encyclopedia, published in the

20 1970s -- or, rather, 1970.

21 Q. Does it say more or less what we have just explained?

22 A. Well, it's set out at greater length but I think the substance of

23 it and a precis of it is what I said.

24 Q. It says: "Clearing up of the battlefield asanacija bojista [from

25 Latin sanus healthy] taking measures in organised manner to remove

Page 39910

1 corpses, biological waste and anything that might become a source of

2 infectious diseases on the front (an area where combat operations are

3 conducted) or in populated areas." And then it goes on to explain that

4 apart from the preventive and health measures, they also include the rest.

5 A. Yes, the other measures that are taken.

6 Q. That's right, the other measures. Mention is made about the new

7 Geneva Convention in 1906 and the Second Hague Convention in 1907 binds

8 all warring parties after battles to find, identify and bury the dead

9 after every battle, make a list of their belongings, and send them to

10 their armies. And it speaks about the medical service and so on and so

11 forth. So we have the regulations of Second Hague Convention 1907 and the

12 Geneva Convention 1906. Registration, records, and so on and so forth

13 later on in the text.

14 Now, tell me this, please, General: We see how this is defined,

15 how the concept is defined in the Military Encyclopedia. You have given

16 us a brief explanation too. Now, tell us this: How did the police act

17 during the war? What did it do with human corpses?

18 A. The police during the war always, whenever it was possible,

19 undertook the same measures it would undertake in peacetime. That, in

20 practical terms, means that in events which resulted in death during the

21 war, the police did more than the term "clearing up of the battlefield"

22 would require.

23 Q. How do you mean more?

24 A. Well, in the sense of carrying out on-site investigations, crime

25 technology investigation, taking papillary line prints in order to

Page 39911

1 identify -- or the identity of the body.

2 Q. General, does "asanacija," clearing up the battlefield, mean

3 covering up a crime?

4 A. Of course it does not.

5 Q. Now, the cases that were mentioned, the transportation of bodies

6 from Kosovo to the territory of central Serbia, for example, several

7 hundred kilometres away from Kosovo and burying them, does that come under

8 the concept of asanacija, clearing up the battlefield, and does it fall

9 into the general practice of the police and the army in any way when

10 corpses are found?

11 A. Events of that kind do not come under the concept of clearing up

12 the battlefield and they have nothing to do with the concept of clearing

13 up the battlefield and sanitisation of the terrain as I explained it a

14 moment ago.

15 Q. Now, did you have any explanation at all for that, or do you have

16 an explanation for what appeared over there?

17 A. For a long time I did not believe that it was true at all. I have

18 absolutely no explanation for what happened because it is quite illogical

19 that somebody would dig up some people who had already lost their lives in

20 order to bury them so far away from Kosovo and Metohija. In my opinion,

21 that is still a great mystery.

22 Q. Who could have had a motive? Who could have wanted to do anything

23 like that?

24 A. Well, the person with the motive was anybody who had the intention

25 to prove alleged crimes and ascribe them to the country and not somebody

Page 39912

1 who wanted to cover them up at all from anyone outside.

2 Q. Batajnica is mentioned here. Now, the area around Batajnica, and

3 you at the time occupied a high post on the police force, what is this

4 area around Batajnica? What does it represent? What is it?

5 A. Well, where the mass grave was located is the centre of special

6 anti-terrorist units. That's the centre and their base. It was the base

7 for the Belgrade special anti-terrorist unit. Of course, in wartime it

8 was not under the control of the police because all the police forces in

9 war were used by reserve locations.

10 Q. So you mean that during the war the area wasn't used by the police

11 and it wasn't under the control of the police force; is that right?

12 A. Yes, that's right. And perhaps it's even more important to state

13 that the first NATO bombs hit the Novi Sad centre of the special units and

14 the Pristina centre for special units and it was quite illogical and

15 unexpected that the Batajnica special units centre should not be hit by a

16 NATO bomb.

17 Q. Are you saying that NATO did not bomb the centre, the police

18 centre in Batajnica, throughout the war?

19 A. Yes, that's right. That's quite correct.

20 Q. Do you have an explanation for that, because NATO bombed Batajnica

21 a great deal.

22 A. NATO hit a large number of MUP facilities and buildings, in my

23 personal opinion, at the airport in Batajnica. Most of them fell,

24 however, the centre was not hit although we expected it to be targeted and

25 hit the very first day.

Page 39913

1 Q. And it was never targeted?

2 A. No, never.

3 Q. Thank you. I'm going to ask you a few questions now which have to

4 do with crimes against human dignity and morale -- morals. I'd like to

5 draw your attention to the fact that in point 5(c), paragraph 68, those

6 crimes are mentioned. They are crimes of rape, et cetera, and it

7 describes the kind of practice that exists, that is described.

8 Now, did the police register such crimes against human dignity, et

9 cetera, morality, et cetera?

10 A. The police did register those crimes just as it registered all

11 other types of crime, not only in Kosovo and Metohija but the territory of

12 Serbia as a whole.

13 Q. The documents with respect to these crimes, are they to be found

14 in tabs 177 to 194?

15 A. Yes, that's right. Those are the tabs.

16 Q. Let's just find the binder. Unfortunately, there's so many

17 binders that I can't seem to find it now, but would you please extract

18 those documents so that we can take a look at them.

19 A. I'm not getting the interpretation.

20 Q. The binder is binder number 5.

21 A. It's tab 177.

22 Q. I have a note here that they are to be found in tabs 177 to 194.

23 A. That's right.

24 Q. That makes it 17 tabs, roughly. Could you tell us the main

25 characteristics of the procedure with respect to crimes of personal and

Page 39914

1 moral degradation, et cetera, what the police did?

2 A. In tab 177 -- may I proceed?

3 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, you may.

4 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

5 Q. Yes. Explain that to us, please.

6 A. Thank you. Now, in tab 177 we have a summary of the crimes of

7 personal and moral degradation committed from the 18th of July, 1998, to

8 the 31st of May, 1999. And there were a total of 17 such crimes. Of

9 course, this refers to Kosovo and Metohija.

10 JUDGE KWON: General, could you first of all who summarised --

11 identify who summarised this, who made this summary.

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The summary comes from the Ministry

13 of the Interior, and as a supplement in continuation of the tab we have

14 the case files for each of these events, each of them.

15 JUDGE KWON: Proceed.

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] So let me repeat: We have a total

17 of 17 events during the period of time that I read out, and from tab 178

18 onwards for each of these events there is at least one document attached.

19 And what I could also add is this: Throughout my time in Kosovo, or our

20 time in Kosovo, we did not receive information or gain the impression that

21 crimes of this kind were happening more frequently than the rate -- than

22 the normal rate in the republic. So they didn't immediately spring to

23 mind or come -- they weren't -- there wasn't an obvious increase in the

24 number of crimes of this kind but in all the cases the police took the

25 necessary steps; identification of the perpetrator and filing a criminal

Page 39915












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 39916

1 report if the perpetrators were uncovered, and in most cases the

2 perpetrators were found.

3 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

4 Q. Here under (c), which I quoted, 5 (c), 68 5 (c) "Sexual assault of

5 Kosovo Albanians, especially women, by the FRY forces and Serbian forces,

6 including sexual assault in paragraphs 57 and 63." Paragraph 57 says that

7 they were intimidated, abuse -- sexually abused and assaulted, and so on.

8 So -- and then paragraph 63 mention is also made of sexual assault.

9 Now, General, what it says here, can it be correct in any way at

10 all?

11 A. To the best of my knowledge and to the -- on the basis of MUP

12 documents, that cannot be correct.

13 JUDGE ROBINSON: What did you ask the witness? "Can it be

14 correct," in relation to what? What is "it"?

15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The forces of the FRY with respect

16 -- yes, the allegations. With respect to the quotation I read out from

17 point (5) where it says the forces of the FRY and Serbia sexually

18 assaulted, et cetera, et cetera. That assertion is quite unbelievable and

19 I'm asking the general whether it could be true.

20 JUDGE ROBINSON: It's a meaningless question. There's a whole

21 range of allegations to ask him whether that is correct. If he answers

22 yes, it's not helpful. You should really direct the witness to a specific

23 incident and ask him about it.

24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] There's no reference to a specific

25 incident here for me to be able to ask him that. It just mentions sexual

Page 39917

1 assault, and he presented data about how many proceedings were taken

2 against how many perpetrators of crimes of that kind.

3 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

4 Q. So take a look at tab 177, 178, 9, 180, General.

5 A. Well, I've just opened tab 181, for example, which contains a

6 criminal report against a known perpetrator of the crime of rape. Then we

7 come to tab 185. For instance, that is a record of --

8 JUDGE ROBINSON: In tab 181 --

9 THE WITNESS: [In English] Yes.

10 JUDGE ROBINSON: -- give us some information about the perpetrator.

11 Does the tab give any information about the perpetrator; his ethnicity,

12 whether he was a soldier, civilian, et cetera?

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In the criminal report itself, it

14 can be seen that Zeljomir Bogicevic is the perpetrator, born in Pec. I'm

15 not sure that I can find his profession very quickly, but it should be

16 somewhere there. Rape, from Article 103, is the crime committed, and on

17 page 2 there is a description of the actual crime. This criminal report

18 was filed with the district public prosecutor in Pec.

19 JUDGE ROBINSON: And he's a civilian, is he?

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm not sure at this moment. I

21 can't --

22 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, according to the summary, he's a civilian.

23 It's case number 4 in the summary, which we do have in English.

24 I mean, I don't think anybody is suggesting that Serbia didn't

25 have a justice system that dealt with civilian rape cases.

Page 39918

1 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

2 Q. General, in response to my question related to crimes related to

3 human dignity and morality, did you say a few moments ago that the crime

4 of rape was not committed with any greater frequency than during

5 peacetime?

6 A. Yes, that's what I said.

7 Q. You did not note it as something that happened more frequently

8 than usual?

9 A. No. It was -- there was nothing unusual about it.

10 JUDGE BONOMY: What we do see from the summary, though, is that

11 during the wartime soldiers were committing rape, whereas there's no

12 evidence of that in the records during the peacetime.

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I am sorry, Your Honour, but that

14 statement is not correct. In peacetime a soldier can still commit rape.

15 I cannot say that I can quote a particular case to you right now, but I'm

16 just saying it's possible.

17 JUDGE BONOMY: Yes, of course it's possible. All I'm saying is

18 this little summary you've given us has no examples of police or soldiers

19 committing rape in peacetime, but it does have examples of police and

20 soldiers committing rape in wartime. Is that not correct?

21 JUDGE ROBINSON: Sorry, did you answer? Did you answer the

22 question, General, asked by Judge Bonomy?

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] My answer was that there are cases

24 of soldiers committing rape during the war.

25 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic, just -- I'm trying to remember

Page 39919

1 when the Prosecution brought witnesses, victims of rape, your general

2 position was that you had no responsibility because those rapes were

3 committed by criminals, ordinary criminals.

4 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] It's only a criminal who can commit

5 that kind of crime. That's quite clear. It can only be that kind of a

6 person who can commit that kind of thing. You see from these documents --

7 JUDGE ROBINSON: A criminal as distinct from -- a civilian,

8 rather, an ordinary criminal, as distinct from a soldier, say a member of

9 the JNA or a paramilitary for whom arguably you might have some

10 responsibility. I'm not quite sure what the relevance of this is since

11 it's a civilian here who is -- who was charged with rape. I imagine you

12 would say that it goes to show the general system, the general pattern of

13 police investigation.

14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Not only the way in which it's done.

15 You forget, Mr. Robinson, that I asked the general very clearly whether

16 there is a single case that the police found out about where criminal

17 proceedings were not instituted. His answer was no.

18 What is presented here concerning rape are all those that were

19 recorded by the police. Now, if the police does not know about any other

20 case, then somebody should explain to me how could I know about this, who

21 it was that could have informed me about this kind of thing, what else

22 happened, that is.

23 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. Proceed.

24 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

25 Q. General, do these tabs contain all information pertaining to rape

Page 39920

1 in Kosovo and Metohija about which the police had any knowledge?

2 A. All the crimes pertaining to this chapter are in this list and

3 these tabs. If the perpetrators are members of the military or the police

4 and the police learned about this, the police would transmit this kind of

5 information to the military police, and then of course this was within

6 their jurisdiction.

7 Q. All right. How many such cases are there in the survey?

8 A. I have not done any proper statistics, and perhaps I'll have to

9 read it and look at each and every one of the individual cases referred to

10 here. But for example, number 13. Persons in uniforms of the army of

11 Yugoslavia, that can be seen. The mentioned persons were taken over by

12 Rasic Milan, born in Nis, a policeman. So the military personnel who were

13 reported to have committed a crime were taken over by a military

14 policeman, Milan Rasic from Nis. The policework was completed, basically,

15 by then.

16 JUDGE BONOMY: That's an interesting example. It would be very

17 interesting to know what happened after that.

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. But it's only someone from the

19 military security that can answer that.

20 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Robinson, I would like to draw

21 your attention to the testimony of General Gojovic here. He presented the

22 facts that had to do with how the military organs acted in such cases.

23 You already have that in the exhibits and in the transcript. It's the

24 military organs that prosecuted such cases when it was a soldier

25 concerned.

Page 39921

1 JUDGE BONOMY: Can you remember if this particular example

2 featured in his evidence?

3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I cannot say now. I don't know now.

4 I don't know the name, but we can check it.

5 MR. NICE: And the Court will remember that General Gojovic also

6 spoke of the handing back of cases from the military at a certain time to

7 the civilian authorities.

8 JUDGE ROBINSON: Continue, Mr. Milosevic.

9 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

10 Q. General, is it usual practice to hand over any perpetrator of a

11 crime belonging to the military to the military organs?

12 A. That is quite customary and in accordance with the law. Under

13 number 15, you can see that a criminal report was filed with the court in

14 Pec and also the appropriate military authority.

15 Q. So the police reports this to the regular civilian authority and

16 the responsible military investigation organ.

17 A. Sometimes the person who allegedly committed the crime has a

18 capacity that is uncertain, and in that case the documents are submitted

19 to both types of organs.

20 Q. All right, General. Since you said that they -- these crimes were

21 not any more frequent than during peacetime --

22 A. In terms of numbers.

23 Q. -- could you collaborate on this?

24 A. The 18th of July until the 31st of May --

25 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters note that they did not get the

Page 39922

1 exact date when 17 crimes were committed.

2 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

3 Q. So it's 17 crimes.

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. How many civilians, how many perpetrators?

6 A. At this moment I cannot say if I were not to look at the summary

7 in greater detail.

8 Q. I'll ask you to look at this during the break. So the total is

9 17 from -- 17 crimes committed from mid-July 1998 to the end of May 1999.

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. General, I would like to put a few questions to you now pertaining

12 to the movement of civilians, refugees, about what is called deportations

13 here. Since this has to do with deportation, and I've had it here for a

14 while now, before I move on to that -- or, actually, it does have to do

15 with that topic. I'm going to give you a piece of information. I'd just

16 like you to have a look at it. Just have a look at it.

17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Robinson, this has to do with

18 deportations. This is a document that was contained in tab 2. During the

19 evidence of the chief of SUP of Pec, Paponjak, Mr. Nice examined him

20 specifically about it because he claimed that this was prepared in order

21 to assist me with my Defence because The Hague indictment is referred to.

22 Count 7, that is.

23 Since the current witness is an experienced member of the Ministry

24 of the Interior, I would like him to have a look at the document. Could

25 the general please look at this document. Could he explain the nature of

Page 39923

1 this document. Could he tell us why The Hague indictment is referred to.

2 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, give it to the witness.

3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The Hague indictment count 7.

4 That's what it says.

5 JUDGE KWON: If the court deputy can find the English version of

6 that.

7 MR. NICE: I don't think it ever was translated. If there was a

8 translation, it hasn't come to me yet, or to us yet, and I recall

9 cross-examining, for want of a translation, on the basis of the Cyrillic

10 version that we had.

11 JUDGE ROBINSON: Let's see whether we can proceed, Mr. Nice.

12 Mr. Milosevic, direct the witness to the particular section of the

13 document.

14 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

15 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

16 Q. What kind of a document is this, General?

17 A. This is really the first time I see this document. It does have

18 some markings that I'm familiar with, though. DJ or CH /3 is something

19 that I'm familiar with. This CH is one the subdossiers of the entire

20 dossier of Kosovo and Metohija in the Ministry of the Interior. This

21 subdossier, especially its last page, obviously has to do with checking

22 out events referred to in the indictment. So the indictment itself is the

23 source of information for this subdossier of the Ministry of the Interior.

24 Obviously the Ministry of the Interior decided to double-check what is

25 mentioned in the indictment, whether those events actually occurred, and

Page 39924

1 what the relevant units of the ministry know about them.

2 Q. That is an indictment. It's not contained in count 7 here that I

3 have, but it is some indictment.

4 Tell me, then, General, who gives this kind of assignment and who

5 gives this kind of heading? What kind of a check or verification is asked

6 for?

7 A. Of the counts of the indictment. This specific information

8 pertains to allegations contained in an indictment related to alleged

9 force deportations of Albanians. The structure of this dossier is

10 established by the Ministry of the Interior, and according to such a

11 structure and according to such thesis he asks the secretary for Kosovo

12 and Metohija to act.

13 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Nice.

14 MR. NICE: I think it's fairly important to look at the careful

15 structuring of the last question. The witness speaks of an indictment as

16 a source of information and then we see what the accused draws from that;

17 and if that isn't leading by intent and purpose, I don't know what is.

18 This witness clearly doesn't know what this document is about. We

19 aren't being treated to, apparently, the originator of the document in the

20 ministry, and I really wonder whether this evidence is of any value save

21 by way of being an attempt to get round a real difficulty that appears in

22 this document.

23 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic, I'll hear you on that very

24 briefly.

25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Robinson, I didn't react a

Page 39925

1 moment ago when Mr. Nice spoke of various authorities, saying that the

2 military sent cases to civilian authorities and vice versa. Of course

3 cases were referred to the proper authorities depending on the status of

4 the perpetrator. This is obviously a valid document. It was described by

5 a witness we heard here, Colonel Paponjak, chief of the Pec secretariat.

6 And since Mr. Nice cross-examined on this document claiming that the

7 document was drafted in order to assist me, I am just asking the witness

8 to tell us if this has anything to do with an attempt to assist me.

9 JUDGE ROBINSON: I'll allow you to continue. Ask a question to

10 show its relevance.

11 MR. NICE: And, Your Honour, I'm not quite sure what tab we're

12 looking at. I think the accused referred to tab 2, but that certainly

13 wouldn't be appropriate so I don't quite know what I'm looking at at the

14 moment. Perhaps the witness could turn over to the first page of the

15 document and we'll know what he's looking at.

16 JUDGE ROBINSON: But let us satisfy ourselves as to whether the

17 witness knows anything about the document.

18 General, are you familiar at all with this document?

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I am seeing this document for

20 the first time, but from the codes and markings I drew my conclusions and

21 gave an answer, and I'm absolutely certain that this answer is correct.

22 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

23 Q. General, what is the heading of this brief and who determined it?

24 A. The heading of this brief was determined by the Ministry of the

25 Interior so that all secretariats could prepare identical documents for

Page 39926

1 their respective areas. That is a brief on forcible transfers and

2 deportations of Albanians, their persecution on racial grounds and

3 confiscation of their IDs. If -- the underlying information was taken

4 from the indictment and this is an attempt to verify it or to check it

5 out.

6 [Trial Chamber confers]

7 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Milosevic. We'll allow you to continue

8 questions relating to the document. The witness apparently is familiar

9 with the -- with that kind of document, is able to identify specific

10 markings. Let us see if he has any information that would be helpful to

11 us.

12 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

13 Q. General, if I understood you correctly, the ministry gave an

14 assignment, including this heading, ordering the subordinated SUPs to

15 provide every information they had on the subject.

16 A. Correct.

17 Q. And this is an assignment that was received by every secretariat

18 in Kosovo and Metohija.

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. What does the first line say?

21 JUDGE BONOMY: General, it's now being put to you that certain

22 things are a matter of fact in a very leading way. I understood you

23 earlier to be saying that you'd never seen this document before, you were

24 not part of the exercise by which arrangements were made to compile it.

25 So is what you're saying any more than your supposition from your

Page 39927












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 39928

1 recognition of some marking on the document?

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I'm not speaking to the

3 substance of the document because I'm seeing it for the first time and I

4 haven't had time to read it, but from certain elements on the cover page

5 and from the signature I can tell what it's about because I'm familiar

6 with the structure of Kosovo and Metohija documents. I can tell you, for

7 instance, what the III means. It refers to the SUP of Pec because the

8 seven secretariats each were assigned a certain number.

9 However, subdossiers within the Kosovo and Metohija dossier were

10 marked by letters of the alphabet, so this letter CH or DJ certainly

11 designates incidents alleged in the indictment, and this specific document

12 refers to allegations in the indictment concerning forcible transfers,

13 deportations, et cetera.

14 JUDGE BONOMY: I must say I'm completely confused about what you

15 say is your knowledge of this. For example, it's just been put to you

16 that you know that this was an exercise that was instructed by the

17 ministry. Now, you don't know what question was asked, do you? You don't

18 know what instructions were given, do you? Or have I misunderstood?

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know the exact wording of

20 every question, and I cannot tell you about the exact substance of each

21 part of this dossier, but I know that there is a dossier and subdossiers

22 including one subdossier based on allegations in the indictment. And I

23 know that the ministry asked the secretariats to provide the ministry with

24 all evidence and information concerning incidents described in the

25 indictment that they might have information about. That is what I'm

Page 39929

1 absolutely certain of.

2 JUDGE BONOMY: How do you know that?

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I know because while I was preparing

4 to testify here I spoke to certain people, including Mr. Paponjak, while

5 we were at the hotel waiting to appear before this Court.

6 JUDGE BONOMY: So this is based on conversations that took place

7 while you're in The Hague.

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] While we were both waiting to enter

9 the stage of testimony.

10 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

11 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

12 Q. General --

13 JUDGE ROBINSON: One more question before the break,

14 Mr. Milosevic, and it must not be a leading question.

15 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

16 Q. When the term "indictment" is used, is it a reference to the

17 indictment brought against me or to any information available to Mr. Nice

18 and his office, including those published?

19 A. It is a reference to the text of the indictment.

20 Q. Did the police always check, regardless of the source of

21 information given the police, any allegation about a crime that may have

22 been committed? Does the police always check out such information

23 whatever the source; a NATO aerial photograph, an indictment, an anonymous

24 telephone call, a personal report by a civilian from any man in the

25 street, et cetera?

Page 39930

1 A. Every piece of information, every report, no matter where it comes

2 from, is checked out meticulously. The source of information can be

3 anyone; an accidental passerby, an anonymous phone call, anything.

4 Q. Tell me about the first lines in this brief introduced through

5 Colonel Paponjak. It says "Brief about forced deportations," et cetera.

6 What does it say?

7 A. The first sub-heading reads: "Information is not correct."

8 Q. What does that mean? You've seen hundreds of these documents.

9 A. Well, it certainly means that the information by -- about

10 deportations is not correct.

11 Q. You --

12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I understood, Mr. Robinson, that you

13 wished the break to start now.

14 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. It's time for the first break. We'll

15 adjourn for 20 minutes.

16 --- Recess taken at 10.30 a.m.

17 --- On resuming at 10.54 a.m.

18 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Milosevic. I understand the tab we are

19 looking at is 2.4 from Mr. Paponjak's evidence.

20 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

21 Q. I just wanted to ask the general if he knows how this dossier was

22 compiled, the dossier called Kosovo and Metohija, regardless of what was

23 introduced through Paponjak. You know what you need to know from the

24 witness directly.

25 Do you know how this dossier Kosovo and Metohija was compiled?

Page 39931

1 A. I know about it because I had occasion, while I was at the

2 Ministry of the Interior, to see the structure of the dossier, and I

3 wanted to complete my answer.

4 Q. I found my binder in the meantime, the binder that includes

5 documents such as the summary of crimes of personal and moral degradation.

6 This summary deals with the period 18th July 1998 to the 31st of May,

7 1999. In that period, there were 17 such incidents registered by the

8 police.

9 A. Correct.

10 Q. Could we go very quickly through tab 177, which contains the

11 summary of these criminal acts.

12 Under item 1, we see that the injured party is an Albanian woman,

13 that the perpetrators were detected and that they were both Albanians,

14 ethnic Albanians. Can you see that in item 1?

15 A. Yes, I can see that. The injured party is Gashi and so on.

16 Q. What does it say about the perpetrators?

17 A. The perpetrators are, of course, named, and it says that the case

18 was filed with the district public prosecutor's office.

19 Q. In the second case out of the remaining 16, the perpetrator -- or,

20 rather, the injured party is a civilian belonging to the Roma community,

21 and the perpetrator is a member of the civilian police.

22 A. Yes. He was arrested.

23 JUDGE ROBINSON: What's the significance of this evidence?

24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The significance, Mr. Robinson, lies

25 in the fact that in that count which I quoted, let me not go back to it

Page 39932

1 again, it says that forces of Serbia and the FRY committed crimes of

2 sexual assaults against ethnic Albanian women, that this general has a

3 summary of all such incidents from mid-1998 - the cases in the beginning

4 all relate to 1998 - and the total number of such cases is 17. This means

5 that the incidence of these crimes was not particularly high. It was

6 nothing special. And not all of these cases involved crimes by Serbs

7 against Albanians. Perpetrators vary in status and ethnic background. In

8 the first case, the injured party is an Albanian woman, in the second one

9 it's a Gypsy woman, in the third case the perpetrator again is an Albanian

10 from Gnjilane, Fazlije Recica, from Gnjilane. In the fourth case both the

11 victim and the perpetrator are Serbs.

12 JUDGE ROBINSON: All right. Well, we have the document here.

13 Your point is only 17 cases of rape and sexual abuse are documented, and

14 in many cases the perpetrators were not Serbs.

15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] But in some cases the victims are

16 Serbian women. Look at the fifth case, for instance.

17 JUDGE ROBINSON: Well, then why don't we have the witness just

18 identify the perpetrators and victims and their ethnicity and then I think

19 your point would be made. Just go through --

20 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well. We'll go through it

21 quickly.

22 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation].

23 Q. We've already gone through the first three. Let me not go back to

24 them. In the fourth case, who is the perpetrator and who is the victim?

25 Only from the point of view of ethnic background.

Page 39933

1 A. Both are Serbs.

2 Q. Fifth case, who is the victim?

3 A. Serbian woman. The perpetrator is a Muslim.

4 Q. What about the sixth case?

5 A. The injured party is a Serbian woman and the perpetrator is a

6 Serb.

7 Q. Seventh case?

8 A. The victim is an Albanian woman. The perpetrator is obviously

9 unidentified, but it says that they spoke in the Siptar language, or the

10 Albanian language.

11 Q. Eighth case?

12 A. Victim is an Albanian, and the perpetrator is also an Albanian.

13 Q. Ninth case, two unidentified persons -- oh, no, it goes on. Who

14 are the perpetrators? In the ninth case, look at the last paragraph. It

15 says: "In further work it was established that the crime was

16 committed --"

17 A. By policemen of the Pec Secretariat of the Interior.

18 Q. The Pec SUP. What about the tenth case?

19 A. The victim is an Albanian woman, and the perpetrator is an

20 unidentified man. Unidentified perpetrator.

21 Eleventh case, the victim is an Albanian woman -- rather, two

22 Albanian women.

23 Q. They wanted or asked for the assistance of members of the Ministry

24 of the Interior.

25 A. There is a reference to military organs, the headquarters in

Page 39934

1 Pristina.

2 Q. Twelfth case?

3 A. The victims are Albanian women. The perpetrators were soldiers.

4 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] So the perpetrators were soldiers,

6 the victims were Albanian women, and a criminal report was filed.

7 Case thirteen, the victim was an Albanian woman.

8 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

9 Q. And the perpetrator, it says a woman from Gornje Nerodimlje

10 reported the case to the police. It was a Serbian woman who reported the

11 case, saying that persons in uniforms of the army of Yugoslavia kidnapped

12 two Albanian women.

13 A. Yes. And she named the names. The case was taken over by the

14 military police.

15 The fourteenth case, in Kosovska Kamenica, a member of the reserve

16 force committed indecent acts against an Albanian woman. He was arrested

17 and remanded in custody. It was brought before the investigating judge of

18 the district court in Gnjilane.

19 In the fifteenth case, the victims were Albanian women. The

20 perpetrators were in camouflage military uniforms. Yes, military

21 uniforms. An on-site investigation was performed and criminal charges

22 filed.

23 Item 16, two members of the Yugoslav army committed the criminal

24 agent of rape against an Albanian victim. An on-site investigation was

25 performed.

Page 39935

1 Q. This case was solved.

2 A. And the perpetrator was remanded in custody.

3 Q. In some of these cases perpetrators are Serbs. In other cases the

4 perpetrators are non-Serbs, sometimes ethnic Albanians. The victims are

5 sometimes Serbian women, Albanian women, or even a Roma woman.

6 Are these all the cases that the police was informed about?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. On the basis of what we have just reviewed, is it possible to say

9 that the incidence of rape was very high in Kosovo and Metohija?

10 JUDGE ROBINSON: That's a leading question.

11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well. But the facts speak for

12 themselves. I don't think they need any questions.

13 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

14 Q. I'm going to ask you a few questions now which have to do with the

15 movement of civilians and refugees and alleged deportations. General,

16 we're not going to dwell on the material compiled by MUP, the Ministry of

17 the Interior, that I pulled out of the Paponjak testimony, but can you

18 tell us, what do you know about the mass movement of civilians from their

19 homes in 1998 and 1999?

20 A. During 1998, civilians were moving around from their homes to the

21 surrounding villages, and this started at the beginning of the war in

22 greater numbers and went on throughout the war.

23 Q. And what were the main causes for this displacement of civilians

24 from their homes?

25 A. There were a number of causes, and there are some basic causes.

Page 39936

1 Some of them I have already explained. The first -- the principal cause

2 was the fact that there was combat activity in the various areas and

3 zones, and so persons internally were displaced to other places.

4 Q. Are you talking about 1998 now?

5 A. Yes, 1998. The other two reasons I have also explained in part,

6 the second reason being that the terrorists were moving the civilians

7 around to prevent -- to prevent themselves from being arrested. And the

8 third reason could be this movement of civilians and displacement in order

9 to portray alleged deportations to the media. And the basic reason was

10 the NATO aggression. And the basic reason for the mass movement or mass

11 displacement of citizens was the beginning of the NATO aggression and

12 everything that happened, the circumstances surrounding the NATO

13 aggression, and I have partially explained that already.

14 All I can do is to illustrate that first night when the first

15 attacks were launched and when everybody was in panic, fear, confusion,

16 because the lighting in the towns and villages were extinguished. There

17 was total darkness. There were planes, bombs, explosions, sirens, shots,

18 and everybody was doing their best to protect themselves, save their

19 lives. And under circumstances of that kind, there could, of course, have

20 been uncontrolled actions both on the part of individuals, neighbours,

21 terrorists, and everybody else there.

22 Q. And what ethnic group did the people belong to who were displaced?

23 A. All ethnic groups were leaving, but the Albanians left en masse.

24 They went towards Macedonia and Albania.

25 Q. Mr. Nice claims, and according to what is written down here it is

Page 39937

1 claimed that the police, together with the army, evicted Albanian citizens

2 from their homes, made them leave their homes. Is that true? Did the

3 police do this? Did the police push Albanians out of their homes?

4 A. None of the information and data that the police possesses testify

5 to that except for the wording of the indictment, the allegations in the

6 indictment. The police did not force Albanians out of their house nor was

7 that part of any plan or policy or order at all.

8 Q. And did the police take any violent measures or forcible measures

9 to have the Albanians return to their homes?

10 A. No. The police didn't evict them or move them out violently, nor

11 did they prevent them from going where they wanted to go or forcibly have

12 them returned, but it did take steps to try and convince them to stay in

13 their homes, in the places they had come from, and to give them assistance

14 in that respect.

15 Q. And did the police take any other steps and measures with regard

16 to this phenomenon that was taking place?

17 A. The police did take steps to protect the columns of refugees or

18 displaced persons regardless of what their intention was and where they

19 were moving to, and it helped other state organs to take additional

20 measures, such as measures of humanitarian assistance to these people.

21 Q. All right. Now, as we're dealing with this mass movement of

22 citizens, was that the role the police had, what you've just stated, or

23 was there anything else, any other reactions?

24 A. Well, what I just said, precisely that. And I could add to that

25 the fact for internally displaced persons, they were asked to report their

Page 39938

1 place of residence, new place of residence for them to be given

2 humanitarian assistance and all other types of assistance as well.

3 Q. General, let me ask a hypothetical question now. Would it be

4 possible nonetheless that members of the police force or soldiers expelled

5 Albanians?

6 A. Well, of course it is possible, but it could just be a form of

7 excessive behaviour outside the command structure, outside the orders

8 given, but let me repeat we had no knowledge of things like that actually

9 taking place.

10 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic, do you intend to ask the witness

11 about any of the specific allegations of deportation in paragraph 63?

12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I think that the questions I'm going

13 to ask him now have to do with the overall conduct vis-a-vis the movement

14 and displacement of civilians and the attitude they took. When I say

15 "they," I mean those who represented the authorities in Kosovo and

16 Metohija during that period of time and their treatment of civilians.

17 JUDGE ROBINSON: For example, paragraph 63(k)(ii) alleges that

18 forces of the FRY on 27th and 28th of March 1999 attacked the town of

19 Kacanik and they harassed, detained, beat and shot many Kosovo Albanian

20 residents of Kacanik. "Thousands of persons fled to nearby forests and

21 eventually walked across the border into Macedonia."

22 Do you have any specific information about that, that incident,

23 General?

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I do not, Your Honour Mr. President.

25 All I can say is that the formulation according to which the forces

Page 39939












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 39940

1 attacked the town really doesn't correspond to the truth. And I've

2 explained this on several occasions, what the goals of police intervention

3 were when the police intervened. We never ever had the object of

4 attacking any town, and that formulation, that phrase means -- would mean

5 that we wanted to destroy something, and that really didn't correspond to

6 the efforts made by the police and army and their goals and objectives in

7 their anti-terrorist actions.

8 JUDGE ROBINSON: So what you can say in relation to that

9 allegation is that it is inconsistent with your understanding of how the

10 police behaved.

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Absolutely so.

12 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Milosevic.

13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Just a moment, please.

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] While we're waiting, perhaps I could

15 tell you my personal experience with respect to certain groups of refugees

16 that were moving towards Albanian, for instance.

17 So I personally took care of this large movement of civilians.

18 One day towards the end of March or around about that date I went to

19 Malisevo, for example. Malisevo is a well-known place as being a

20 stronghold of the KLA. That's what it's known for. And when I got there,

21 I came across about 30.000, maybe more, people who were on tractors, who

22 were in different vehicles, expecting somebody to send them buses and

23 trucks to transport them further on to Albanian.

24 I spent, with a group of my associates and people from Prizren, at

25 least two hours, maybe three hours, talking to the people, talking to

Page 39941

1 these people and trying to convince them to go back home, to go back to

2 their villages and homes, and I guaranteed that the police would not do

3 anything but protect them. And in Malisevo, together with the civilians,

4 there were a large number of policemen who communicated with the people,

5 and they were very tolerant, highly tolerant, and did their best to

6 convince them that we're not there to persecute them in any way but to

7 help them and to protect them from persecution.

8 JUDGE ROBINSON: And did you ascertain from any of them why they

9 had left their homes?

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, they were very reticent in

11 talking to us at all. Their position was that they were mistrustful,

12 distrustful. But usually the answer given was NATO. Whether that was

13 indeed what they thought, I believe it was. I can't, of course, claim

14 that it was, but that's it.

15 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Milosevic.

16 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

17 Q. Tell me about the state policy with respect to this displacement

18 of civilians and what you yourself as the leadership of the police force

19 conducted and what you saw was implemented by the staff in Pristina, for

20 example.

21 A. Everything that I saw myself clearly indicated the concern that

22 existed with regard to the situation and that everything was done to

23 prevent this exodus. The only thing was that we didn't wish to exert

24 pressure and prevent them from leaving forcibly. We considered that that

25 wouldn't be conducive to the rights of citizens to leave territory of

Page 39942

1 their own free will if it came into the war zone.

2 Q. Now let's take a look at tabs 82 onwards, General, please. They

3 are documents which are linked to the conduct and behaviour of the police.

4 For example, tab 82. Take a look at tab 82 now, please, and tell us what

5 it contains. It is a dispatch, I believe, a telegram.

6 Have you found that tab, General?

7 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please, Your Honour.

8 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, it's -- we have a translation.

9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well. Since there is a

10 translation, then it's easier for us to go through this document.

11 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

12 Q. Whose dispatch is this?

13 A. It is the dispatch from the MUP staff in Pristina. It is dated

14 the 15th of April, 1999.

15 Q. All right. Fine. Is it addressed to all the organs of the MUP in

16 the territory of Kosovo and Metohija?

17 A. Yes. You can see that, that it is sent to the units stipulated.

18 Q. Could you read it out, please.

19 A. It says: "Despite the fact that on the 5th of April, 1999, an

20 order was issued to prevent civilians from leaving their place of

21 residence and to guarantee their safety (and take security measures to

22 protect this population), it was observed that some commanding officers

23 addressed here are not obeying the order and tolerate departure of

24 civilian population on a massive scale."

25 Paragraph two reads as follows: "Therefore --" it's not a very

Page 39943

1 legible copy.

2 Q. "All the measures..."

3 A. Yes. "All the measures ordered regarding the police members'

4 treatment of the civilian population must be implemented consistently and

5 any deviation from the order issued brings with it accountability. Inform

6 the staff in writing of any problems."

7 Those are the contents of the dispatch that the MUP sent out to

8 all units in the field. And from this dispatch we can see what I

9 explained a moment ago in answering the previous questions.

10 Q. Thank you, General. Now, what do we have in tab 183? Let's skip

11 the first part. Once again it has been sent by the staff; is that right?

12 A. Yes, that's right.

13 JUDGE ROBINSON: Tab 83, do you mean, not 183?

14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, 83. 83. The next tab. We

15 were dealing with tab 82. The next tab is 83.

16 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

17 Q. As we were saying, this was addressed to all the police organs in

18 Kosovo and Metohija, as we can see; is that right? Is there anybody who

19 was left out?

20 A. It says that all the organisational units in Kosovo and Metohija

21 received this, and the dispatch is dated the 20th of April, 1999.

22 Q. Right. Fine. Now, what does it say as the subject?

23 A. It says the subjects are the displaced population or refugees.

24 Q. And then we find, "Please find attached an order of the 3rd Army

25 commander, Colonel General Nebojsa Pavkovic, regarding treatment of

Page 39944

1 refugees."

2 A. That's right. And then we have the order from the commander of the

3 3rd Army as an attachment.

4 Q. What does it say at the top? It says that the subject is care of

5 refugees, and then Order.

6 A. That's what it says in the order by the commander of the 3rd Army.

7 Q. And what does it say exactly?

8 A. Do you want me to read it all? It says: "As a result of the

9 unending air raids of the NATO forces on the units of the army of

10 Yugoslavia and the expected aggression by the ground forces, the number of

11 movements of the civilian population in the unit's areas of responsibility

12 has increased thus significantly complicating the overall security

13 situation. With a view to protecting the civilian population and

14 directing them to safer areas, I hereby order," et cetera. And then the

15 order contains a total of nine points.

16 Q. Tell us, now, what is being ordered? We see that this is an order

17 issued to protect the population and to direct them to safer areas. What

18 does point 1 stipulate? What?

19 A. "The corps commands and MUP organs shall establish the exact

20 distribution and number of refugees in their areas of responsibility and

21 extend to them through the competent organs the necessary help in food and

22 other necessities," and they're referring to the refugee population,

23 displaced population.

24 Point 2 says: "They shall identify villages outside the areas of

25 unit deployment in the areas of responsibility where the refugees can be

Page 39945

1 accommodated."

2 Point 3 reads as follows: "They shall monitor each day movements

3 of the civilian population in their areas of responsibility and ensure for

4 them the necessary protection and return to their homes or areas outside

5 the areas of combat operations."

6 Do you want me to read on?

7 Q. Well, I think that we would need to do so because point 4 reads:

8 "They shall protect the refugees and their property in the villages --"

9 A. Yes, "... in the villages and specified areas from the operations

10 of the STS --"

11 Q. And what does that mean; Siptar terrorist forces?

12 A. Yes, Siptar terrorist forces "and attacks by other persons in the

13 territory."

14 "5: They shall take vigorous measures to prevent the appropriation

15 of personal effects and private property of the refugees. Criminal

16 charges shall be brought against the perpetrators.

17 "6: They shall prevent the arson of houses and other structures

18 owned by the Siptars in their areas of responsibility.

19 "7: They shall take measures through the authorities to extend to

20 the refugees help in food and required medical assistance.

21 "8: They shall take all security measure in the areas of refugee

22 reception and protection to shield them from the STS operations - Siptar

23 operations - from the territory among the refugees."

24 Q. And then, finally, it says that areas should be pinpointed where

25 they can be sent to for safety.

Page 39946

1 A. Yes, that's right.

2 Q. Now, in keeping with an order of this kind, did everybody behave

3 along those lines lower down the chain?

4 A. This was an order which was binding. It had to be applied at all

5 levels down the chain of command.

6 Q. All right. Fine. Now tab 84 is one that we have already looked

7 at when we discussed another topic during your testimony, so I don't want

8 to dwell on it now. You've already quoted portions of that tab and we

9 discussed it during your testimony, but tell us, please, what the other

10 tabs contain, tabs 85 to 87 inclusive.

11 A. This is quite obviously correspondence between one police unit and

12 the staff in Pristina, the headquarters in Pristina.

13 Q. And it recommends certain points and accommodation, et cetera.

14 A. Yes. That's the first note, tab 85, where the command of the

15 122nd Intervention Brigade informs the staff of the lines reached. Of

16 course, codes are used to denote those lines, so we have figures here

17 denoting the lines reached. And they say that positions are 78 to 90 and

18 111 to 90 and 92. And I'm -- I propose points 138 and 139, and is asking

19 that these persons be accommodated in these two recommended points.

20 Q. To move them geographically to areas of safety?

21 A. Yes, that's right. And he expects the staff to answer along those

22 lines, and the army is asked to tell them whether those are points of

23 safety and security.

24 Q. Very well. Just briefly, this dispatch that was sent to the Pec

25 SUP, for instance, what is this Djurdjevdan operation, that civilians

Page 39947

1 should be returned to their place of residence and all security measures

2 taken?

3 A. Well, this is a dispatch by the MUP staff dated the 8th of May,

4 sent to the SUP of Djakovica with respect to the return of civilians to

5 their original place of residence after an anti-terrorist activity, which

6 is coded once again.

7 Q. All right. And do we also find an answer to the previous dispatch

8 that was sent where accommodation was asked for? That's tab 86, the last

9 document there, where it says, "Civilians should be returned to their

10 villages, and if that is not possible, then we agree to them being

11 accommodated in the areas you have designated."

12 A. Yes. That is an answer to the dispatch from the 122nd Brigade

13 where they suggested the areas they should be accommodated.

14 Q. All right. In tab 87, there is a document entitled "Accommodation

15 situation for refugees in the autonomous province of Kosovo and Metohija

16 on the 19th of April, 1999."

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Not to go through all of this now in great detail, Pec, Gnjilane,

19 Djakovica, Urosevac, these are actually all the secretariats of the

20 interior?

21 A. Yes, all the secretariats. In the first paragraph you can see

22 that on that day the total number registered was 2.300 -- 231.780

23 refugees.

24 Q. Some were staying in homes and others in the open?

25 A. Yes.

Page 39948

1 Q. Let's just leave -- look at the first sentence. "According to

2 reports from SUP concluding on the 19th of April, about 231.780 refugees

3 have been registered, mostly accommodated in family and friends' houses,

4 in large-scale accommodation facilities, and in the open."

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And then information is provided, for example, for Djakovica.

7 What does it say about Djakovica, the SUP of Djakovica?

8 A. It says --

9 Q. You don't have to read all of it.

10 A. "... assistance was offered to 6.700 refugees, members of the

11 Albanian ethnic community, for them to return to the area where they're

12 resident in Kosovska Mitrovica and Vucitrn municipalities."

13 Q. So that is the 18th of April, 1999 when, according to what

14 Mr. Nice claims, the police was evicting Albanians.

15 A. "They were offered assistance in the form of transport and

16 foodstuffs. At about 1300 hours on the 19th of April, 1999 assistance was

17 given to the final group of about 4.500 refugees to return to Kosovska

18 Mitrovica, Vucitrn, and Srbica municipalities..."

19 Q. "... to their places of residence"?

20 A. "... to their places of residence."

21 Q. Thank you, General. Let me just have a look. I have another tab

22 noted here that we should look at with regard to these questions. Let me

23 just have a look. I think we already looked at this. All right.

24 General, we've seen a few of these examples. What was the

25 attitude of international organisations towards refugees?

Page 39949

1 A. Well, during the war itself I at least was not in a position to

2 see the activity of any international organisation there. Possibly they

3 were there, but I didn't see them.

4 Q. Before the war operations started, that is to say before the 24th

5 of March, there were different international organisations there.

6 A. That's right. During 1998 and all the way up to the war there

7 were different international organisations there. I do not have a great

8 deal of knowledge about their attitude towards civilians, but I do know of

9 a case that I witnessed myself and that I have already referred to.

10 Istinic, the end of the summer of 1998, when I was directly involved in

11 returning tens of thousands of Albanians to their places of residence, to

12 their homes after a terrorist campaign.

13 I had a serious problem with a team of the International Red

14 Cross, I think it was the International Red Cross. There is a telegram

15 about that. And practically behind our backs they were trying to persuade

16 more influential Albanians not to act in accordance with what we were

17 saying at all because that would be a bad choice for them.

18 In spite of these problems, during three or four days we managed

19 to return all the internally displaced persons from Istinic to their

20 places of residence. And I wish to note that in that group of civilians

21 there were several terrorists and a large quantity of weapons that were

22 handed over. I explained that in greater detail a few days ago.

23 Q. In relation to what you're saying, in tab 81 there is a letter of

24 General Lukic to the minister of the interior, to his office. It says:

25 "Our information number 13/98 of the 13th of September, 1998." That is a

Page 39950

1 document that has to do with what you were talking about just now, the

2 village of Istinic where you were personally?

3 A. Yes. That is quite certainly the incident concerned.

4 Q. And now the name of this representative of the international

5 organisation is mentioned. This is the third paragraph: "When the

6 policemen called on the representatives of the Siptar ethnic minority from

7 Istinic and other villages to return to their homes, this person warned

8 them on several occasions and asked the people present to return to their

9 homes because it was not safe, thus causing panic, insecurity, and

10 uncertainty among the residents on whether to return or not."

11 A. This is an absolutely accurate description. I do not know which

12 organisation she belongs here -- ah, yes, I see here: Representative of

13 the International Red Cross from the Belgrade mission. That's what it

14 says in the second paragraph.

15 Q. General, in relation to this treatment of persons who had left

16 their homes, what can you say about the campaign regarding the reporting

17 of residence of displaced persons?

18 A. That's the tab that we skipped a few minutes ago. That is tab 84.

19 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic, I believe there is a specific

20 reference to this village -- municipality, rather, in tab 8 -- tab 81, in

21 the indictment.

22 JUDGE KWON: 63(l).

23 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. 63, 63(l). This is September --

24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I'll have to have a look.

25 JUDGE ROBINSON: September 1998. The allegation in 63(l) relates

Page 39951












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 39952

1 to the 29th of March, 1999, and it speaks of an attack by forces of the

2 FRY and Serbia, men and women ordered to undress.

3 You see, I'm trying to relate the evidence to specific incidents

4 in the indictment, if it is possible, but this document in tab 81 does

5 relate to the charge but to September 1998. How is that assisting your

6 case, Mr. Milosevic?

7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, Mr. Robinson, I'm trying to

8 establish how the police behaved in respect of the movement of the

9 population, what the police did by way of assistance. We went through a

10 few documents where orders are given to take care of the civilian

11 population. All these measures and orders are totally incompatible with

12 what is stated in the indictment. If what the indictment says were true,

13 then it would be quite impossible to have such orders and such positions

14 taken by the police. It is impossible to have orders like this that we've

15 been quoting here, and these orders say how to help the population, how to

16 give them food, shelter, how to put them into safe areas, and that is

17 quite incompatible with what the indictment says. It is in total

18 contradiction. Documents from the area concerned are in total

19 contradiction to the -- to the indictment. That simply cannot be the

20 case. The police and the military cannot behave in contravention of the

21 orders they receive.

22 JUDGE ROBINSON: A wide gap between what is in an order and the

23 actual enforcement of it. I am reminded of the time I spent on the

24 Inter-American Commission on Human Rights. We visited many countries,

25 on-site visits, and some of the worst offenders had the best written laws

Page 39953

1 to protect human rights. But carry on, Mr. Milosevic.

2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Robinson, this doesn't have to

3 do with laws and regulations. Only they have -- this has to do with

4 orders as well.

5 As far as the police is concerned, before General Stevanovic, I

6 had Colonel Paponjak here, who was speaking from a local level about

7 conduct in terms of the implementation of orders that he received. Now we

8 have General Stevanovic who is talking about the conduct throughout the

9 province, and we're going to see --

10 JUDGE ROBINSON: Carry on with the questioning. We must conclude

11 this witness's examination-in-chief.

12 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

13 Q. I would like to draw your attention to paragraph 63 that you

14 mentioned a few moments ago, that the assertions regarding Kotlina are

15 contained there too. That is in (k)(i). We presented very clear

16 documents about that yesterday which are -- which totally contradict what

17 it says here. Kotlina, speaking of murders and also persecutions --

18 JUDGE ROBINSON: Continue with the -- continue with your

19 questions. Continue with your questions.

20 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

21 Q. General, just give us the briefest possible answers. You said

22 that there was this campaign about registering places of residence. That

23 is generally known, but what can you say about that, for temporarily

24 displaced persons?

25 A. The objective was to deal with that number of internally displaced

Page 39954

1 persons - we saw the figure in a document that we looked at recently - to

2 deal with it statistically according to the places where they were

3 staying, to have documents in this respect in addition to all the measures

4 that are ordered in the tab that we skipped, including local security.

5 Q. All right, General. You've been repeating this, that we've

6 skipped that. So in tab 84, that is the document signed by General Lukic

7 of the ministry staff. I'm going to ask you about number 1. "Organise a

8 residence registration service in all places accommodating refugees who

9 had left their domicile --"

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. "-- due to bombing by NATO forces. In the registration of

12 domicile include persons who have not registered their place of domicile

13 but were found at their address where they are living."

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. "Make it possible for all persons to register their residence on

16 the established form number, and issue certificates of residence

17 registration."

18 JUDGE KWON: Yes. We've been through this. Move on.

19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Kwon.

20 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

21 Q. What was the aim of this campaign?

22 A. The aim was to regulate the affairs of the displaced persons in

23 the places where they were staying temporarily. That was used for two

24 purposes; security and taking care -- security of the persons concerned

25 and their general safety. There were statistics at border crossings.

Page 39955

1 That's where statistics were kept, when the persons crossed international

2 borders, but not persons crossing to Montenegro or Serbia.

3 Q. So it was only at the state border.

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. In paragraph 63, with regard to all the allegations, it is stated

6 that the personal documents were taken from Albanians who were going to

7 Albania and Macedonia, that the police were taking their documents. Do

8 you know about that?

9 A. I know that from the indictment, or the presentation of the

10 indictment, but this wording is really a generalisation of perhaps a

11 particular incident at a particular border crossing. Perhaps I even saw a

12 film about this. But I claim that, as I have said several times, that

13 this is not part of any policy pursued or orders issued. This was

14 excessive behaviour on the part of a particular shift at a particular

15 point in time at a particular border crossing.

16 Q. General, now I'm asking you about a person who professionally

17 dealt with police matters for many years. If a person's documents had

18 been taken away, would that deprive him or her of the possibility of

19 ascertaining his or her identity or jeopardising his or her status or

20 whatever?

21 JUDGE ROBINSON: You dealt with that already.

22 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

23 Q. General, yesterday we showed the electronic system of registering

24 citizens. Would anybody who was familiar with this system get the idea

25 that he should prevent the return of citizens to the country by taking

Page 39956

1 away their personal documents?

2 A. Absolutely not.

3 Q. Do --

4 MR. NICE: [Previous translation continues] ... mere speculation

5 about what other people in general might do.

6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Move on to another area. You've dealt with this

7 already. I said so. Move on to another area.

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Excuse me, Your Honour. May I just

9 make a comment about this qualification speculation?

10 JUDGE ROBINSON: No. Move on to another question, Mr. Milosevic.

11 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

12 Q. General, I'm going to ask you about a concept which is often

13 mentioned here; shelling and devastation of buildings. In many

14 paragraphs, reference is made to a particular wording or, rather, a

15 pattern. Forces of Serbia and FRY go into a particular place, separate

16 men from women following shelling, et cetera, et cetera. That is the

17 wording frequently used.

18 I'm going to ask you, during clashes with terrorists, did the

19 police and the military destroy civilian buildings?

20 A. Destruction of civilian facilities was never the purpose of any

21 operation carried out in Kosovo and Metohija.

22 Q. Did devastation of facilities in Kosovo and Metohija occur?

23 A. I don't know what the term "devastation" could encompass. If we

24 take it to mean deliberate destruction of buildings, that certainly didn't

25 happen in Kosovo and Metohija. That was not our practice and would have

Page 39957

1 served no purpose.

2 Q. According to your understanding and the understanding of the

3 Ministry of the Interior, would buildings whose purpose was normally

4 civilian but which are used as a place from which to shoot at the police

5 and the military continue to be regarded as civilian facilities?

6 A. No. They are no longer regarded as civilian facilities. But even

7 then, the purpose of the police and the army is not to destroy such

8 facilities. They only seek to suppress the armed resistance coming from

9 such facilities.

10 Q. Did you notice any considerable discrepancies in the degree of

11 destruction of buildings from one place to another since you travelled a

12 lot across Kosovo and Metohija?

13 A. I noticed large differences in terms of the degree of destruction

14 between various places in Kosovo. I can cite an example. The greatest

15 number of destroyed buildings could be seen in the area of Suva Reka, in

16 the area of Pec, whereas many, many villages I passed were absolutely

17 intact.

18 As an example of that, I can cite Rogovo between Djakovica and

19 Prizren, the town of Prizren, the town of Urosevac, Gnjilane, Pristina.

20 For instance, the villages around Gnjilane were almost intact. The

21 villages, rather, around Pristina.

22 Q. But you don't mean to include destruction by NATO bombing?

23 A. No, no.

24 Q. And were there any cases of damage or destruction to public

25 utilities, infrastructure?

Page 39958

1 A. No, not that I know of, or very rarely. If such facilities,

2 infrastructure were damaged, that was always by terrorists, so that all

3 the public utilities, electricity, water supply and such things functioned

4 quite well under the circumstances.

5 Q. You were there on the spot. You travelled a lot. Tell me, could

6 you distinguish clearly between destruction caused by NATO airstrikes and

7 destruction or damage resulting from clashes between our forces and the

8 KLA?

9 A. Absolutely. Maybe not in a few specific cases, but it was

10 normally very clear what was caused by NATO bombing and what was not.

11 Q. Is it still possible that certain civilian facilities were

12 destroyed by our forces beyond what was necessary in terms of

13 anti-terrorist combat?

14 A. That could only have been part of incidents and excessive

15 behaviour, but I don't know of any such cases.

16 Q. I'm now going to ask you about paramilitary groups and volunteers.

17 According to your information, were paramilitary formations active in

18 Kosovo and Metohija? Do you know of any paramilitary formation that was

19 under any sort of control by any body or state authority?

20 A. Paramilitary units under the control of the state authorities in

21 any form did not exist that I know of. There could have been uniformed or

22 un-uniformed armed groups that could have committed occasionally criminal

23 acts.

24 Q. But in view of the disposition of police forces and military

25 forces, could there have been an important paramilitary unit that they

Page 39959

1 failed to notice?

2 A. Paramilitary units could have been active and present as something

3 beyond and contrary to the law but not under the control of the police or

4 the army.

5 Q. Do you have any information of the activity of such groups from

6 other wars in other areas of ex-Yugoslavia?

7 A. I'm familiar with some paramilitary groups that were active in the

8 territory of ex-Yugoslavia from 1991 onwards, and I know that members of

9 some such groups had residence on the territory of Serbia.

10 Q. Were they ever active on the territory of Serbia?

11 A. No. Moreover, all members of such groups identified in Serbia

12 were arrested, their weapons, if found, were seized, and they were

13 instructed that if they wished to join the army they had to follow the

14 regular procedure, and whether they were eventually accepted into the army

15 depended on the regulations.

16 Q. Now we are talking about the beginning of the 1990s. Did the

17 police take any action, conduct any operation on the territory of

18 ex-Yugoslavia together with such a paramilitary group?

19 A. No, never.

20 Q. And during the 1990s, what was the attitude of the authorities of

21 Serbia toward such paramilitary formations?

22 A. It was extremely negative, and I've already stated what measures

23 were taken against members of such groups.

24 Q. Let us return to Kosovo and Metohija again, General. Have you

25 ever heard of any paramilitary unit in Kosovo and Metohija? Did you have

Page 39960

1 any information about the presence of such a group in Kosovo?

2 A. No.

3 Q. Did the Ministry of the Interior of Serbia participate or assist

4 in the arming of any group outside their own personnel?

5 A. The police of Serbia armed only its own reservists, but the

6 reserve force of the police are an integral part of the police.

7 Q. Since you've mentioned 1990s, what particular paramilitary units

8 and groups did you hear about in those years?

9 A. I heard of various units in the Republic of Serbian Krajina, in

10 Republika Srpska, such as the Serbian Volunteers Guard, Green Berets, Red

11 Berets, the National Guard Corps, et cetera.

12 Q. You are talking about paramilitary units on various sites?

13 A. Yes, on various sites. Some of them belonged to various state

14 bodies or party organisations.

15 Q. You mentioned the Red Berets. What units were known under that

16 name?

17 A. The name Red Berets was extremely -- extremely popular. Every

18 unit wanted to be called the Red Berets, and any unit that included in its

19 uniform a red beret often assumed that name, so that there was a multitude

20 of units that were mistakenly known as Red Berets.

21 Q. What does that mean? In which area?

22 A. In Serbian Krajina, in the Republic of Serbia itself, but also the

23 Republika Srpska.

24 Q. In the Republic of Serbia, who wore red berets?

25 A. I know of a special anti-terrorist unit that wore red berets, and

Page 39961

1 the citizens called them Red Berets. There was another unit in the

2 special forces of the VJ also wore red berets, and the citizens called

3 them Red Berets. Arkan's Guard also wore red berets.

4 Q. A question was raised here about the date of establishment of this

5 unit for special operations of the Serbian police, the JSO.

6 A. Yes. They, too, wore red berets.

7 Q. When was it established?

8 A. In the spring of 1996, according to my information.

9 Q. And what information do you have?

10 A. Well, I was invited to attend the ceremony that was organised on

11 the occasion of their establishment. I believe it was in the spring of

12 1996. I can't be more precise.

13 Q. So you personally attended the ceremony of establishment of that

14 unit?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. And it was in the spring of 1996?

17 A. Yes. I remember it was raining.

18 Q. We will now move on to some issues, and we will refer to the

19 documents we have here related to various meetings which discussed these

20 problems. So we're talking about meetings, not regulations, not orders,

21 but specific meetings.

22 Let me ask you first: Did you attend various meetings that

23 discussed state policy regarding the situation in Kosovo and Metohija,

24 combat against terrorism, and what was the official state policy at the

25 time, anyway?

Page 39962

1 A. I attended several such meetings, and I've already explained what

2 the policy of state authorities was regarding the need to combat

3 terrorism.

4 Q. Did you attend the meeting that was held at the staff of the

5 Ministry of the Interior in Pristina on the 21st of December, 1998?

6 A. I would have to check, because I attended most such meetings, but

7 I don't remember them by dates.

8 Q. That's not what I expect from you anyway, because we have precise

9 records of all these meetings, tab by tab.

10 Look, for instance, at tab 68.

11 A. I have found it.

12 Q. Good. Is this the record of the meeting of the ministry staff

13 that included the minister of the interior and chiefs of secretariats held

14 in Pristina? We can see that you were present too.

15 A. Yes. You can see that in the first paragraph.

16 Q. And in the -- and in the third paragraph, the minister says: "The

17 conditions of work are complex. Although we defeated terrorists and

18 seized their weapons."

19 Does it follow from this that it was not their objective to kill

20 the terrorists, just to disarm them?

21 A. Absolutely. The objective was to neutralise, to liquidate the

22 terrorist organisation, not to kill the terrorists.

23 Q. Very well. On page --

24 MR. NICE: [Previous translation continues] ...

25 JUDGE ROBINSON: Where is that paragraph, Mr. Milosevic?

Page 39963












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 39964

1 MR. NICE: He said it's paragraph 3 but I can't find it on the

2 third paragraph.

3 JUDGE ROBINSON: Paragraph 3 would be on page 2?

4 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Just before the end.

5 JUDGE KWON: Page 2, the end of Minister Stojiljkovic's comment:

6 "... even though we defeated the terrorists and took away their weapons."

7 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

8 Q. On page 2 in the original Serbian version, in the second sentence

9 of this paragraph it says literally: "The main task of the police is to

10 protect and defend the country from such terrorist actions and criminals."

11 A. I can't find it.

12 Q. It's the second paragraph on the second page.

13 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreters note it's page 3, paragraph 2.

14 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

15 Q. The most important item was for the police to maintain control of

16 the area and secure free passage and --

17 We are going to go through this rather quickly. The sub-heading

18 seems to say "Assessments, conclusions." It says: "Every campaign and

19 operation of the police has to have an objective and has to be reported to

20 the OSCE mission." Have you found this?

21 A. Yes, I have.

22 Q. Read this line.

23 A. "Every activity of the police has to have a specific reason and

24 must be notified to the OSCE mission. Every action must be taken in

25 keeping with the regulations and the law, not in a soldierly way. There

Page 39965

1 must not be any looting or pillage during police activities. The police

2 should act professionally and lawfully as it did in Kapasnica [phoen], Pec

3 and Glodjane."

4 Q. Reference is made to the OSCE mission although it seems to be

5 inclined or to sympathise with the terrorists. "They must be allowed to

6 stay."

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. On the next page, the conclusion says that the following actions

9 need to be taken. What is written in this section? I would like to

10 mention just a few things.

11 A. The fourth line from the bottom says: "Weapons should be used

12 only in self-defence and only proportionately to the force of attack."

13 Q. Yes, that's in the document, but before that, it says: "In order

14 to use heavy weapons and large calibre weapons, we must be provoked

15 (attacked) by heavy weapons. We cannot take heavy weapons and equipment

16 in our vehicles."

17 A. Yes that's in keeping with our rules.

18 Q. And then it says: "The police should act as if we were working in

19 Belgrade."

20 A. Correct.

21 MR. NICE: I do wish the accused would recognise that not only I

22 but, more important, the Court has to be able to follow documents.

23 There's very little point in just racing through them.

24 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic, I've mentioned this to you before

25 that leading evidence is not a private dialogue between yourself and the

Page 39966

1 witness.

2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, I understood it that you do

3 have a translation of this document, Mr. Robinson.

4 JUDGE ROBINSON: We have it, but proper protocol requires that you

5 identify the passage and you must not proceed until the Chamber has found

6 it so that we can follow it. That's not only a matter of courtesy, it

7 also goes to the efficiency of the proceedings.

8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I had the impression that you were

9 able to follow because I identified the subtitle on the basis of -- based

10 on that which was presented, it was concluded that "The following should

11 be undertaken," and then that's the passage after that.

12 Now, under that heading we also find the bullet points and the

13 various positions. I could read them all, but to avoid reading them all I

14 quoted just some of them.

15 At the end of the seventh bullet point, it says: "In order to use

16 heavy weapons and large calibre weapons we must be provoked, that is to

17 say attacked also by heavy weapons. We cannot take heavy weapons and

18 equipment in our vehicles." Have you found that passage?


20 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] And underneath, the next bullet

21 point that I quoted is the following: "The police should act as if we are

22 working in Belgrade."

23 And then five lower down, just one line, it says: "Use weapons

24 only in self-defence and in proportion to the strength of the attack."

25 So that's what I wanted to quote. I hope you found those passages

Page 39967

1 now.

2 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, we have.

3 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

4 Q. General, did the police behave in keeping with these instructions?

5 A. This had the aim of having the police act in conformity with this,

6 and all the leaders had orders to implement all conclusions from this type

7 of meeting. Therefore, the police did act accordingly, according to these

8 instructions and guidelines.

9 Q. In tab 69, General, we have the minutes of a meeting that took

10 place on the 17th of February in Pristina, 1999. Did you attend that

11 meeting in the MUP headquarters?

12 A. Yes, I did. And you can see that from what it says.

13 Q. And who else attended and what did you discuss?

14 A. It has a list of members attending, or persons attending the

15 meeting. And the question discussed was the security situation and the

16 tasks stipulated, and we can see that from the document.

17 Q. Very well. Now, let's just go briefly through this document.

18 On page 2, the last paragraph, which begins with the following

19 words: "Minister Vlajko Stojiljkovic," it says.

20 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I hope, Mr. Robinson, that will be

21 readily identified by you, the passage. It begins on page 2.

22 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreters note page 3, "Minister Vlajko

23 Stojiljkovic."


25 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Page 39968

1 Q. I'm going to skip over that first portion and then I shall go on

2 to quote from the middle of the paragraph. He assessed that the basic

3 problem in Kosovo was terrorism and separatism by certain members of the

4 Siptar ethnic minority.

5 Is the minister making a clear distinction between Albanians and

6 separatists and terrorists there?

7 A. I've already explained that. Insistence was always made on a

8 clear distinction between terrorists and the other citizens of the

9 Republic of Serbia.

10 Q. Furthermore, it says: "He assessed that since the arrival of the

11 OSCE mission the number of terrorist attacks and provocations had

12 increased but without any significant consequences."

13 Is that what it says?

14 A. Yes, that's what it says.

15 Q. And then he goes on to say, because he is a government member and

16 minister of the interior: "The state of Serbia will do everything in its

17 power to resolve the problems in Kosovo by peaceful and political means.

18 Kosovo will be multi-ethnic and a part of the existing constitutional and

19 legal system of Serbia and the FRY."

20 A. That's what it says.

21 Q. And then on the next page, since the date is as it stands, the

22 17th of February, that is to say just prior to the aggression, very close

23 to the aggression, we have direct reference to the tasks, the forthcoming

24 tasks of the police force to mop up the territory of terrorists. So once

25 again reference is made to terrorists.

Page 39969

1 And then the next bullet point, gathering intelligence and

2 information about the movements to eliminate misinformation and

3 propaganda, then to maintain law and order, ensure personal and property

4 safety in the fight against terrorism and crime.

5 Can you find that?

6 A. Yes. Those are conclusions as to forthcoming tasks, because the

7 aim of the meeting was to analyse the security situation and to determine

8 tasks for the forthcoming period.

9 Q. Right. Fine. RPO. Could you remind me of what that abbreviation

10 is?

11 A. Reserve police department.

12 Q. So it says: "Tell the PRO -- RPO and the people that civil war

13 must be avoided at all cost but that in case of conflict the aggressor

14 should be killed, not women and children."

15 A. This is a message to reserve police units whose task it was to

16 protect inhabited areas, settlements, because they thought that in -- that

17 clashes might ensue between neighbours and so on and so forth.

18 Q. Right. And then it says later on engage volunteers and --

19 "Approach and engage volunteers, carefully linking their engagement

20 through the reserve police force when assessed as necessary, which means

21 to exclude all voluntariness and arbitrary conduct."

22 And the penultimate bullet point --

23 JUDGE BONOMY: Can I ask, what is meant by a volunteer?

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] May I be allowed to answer, Your

25 Honour? There are citizens who simply express the wish to become members

Page 39970

1 of the army or police force, or join the army and police, especially in

2 situations when problems are expected to arise such as aggression and so

3 on and so forth, and we really did have people who came forward. They

4 came to the police station and said they would like to join us and become

5 members of the police force. Of course, both the army and the police has

6 procedure in place and criteria for a reserve force. The mere fact that

7 somebody wants to join up doesn't mean they'll be admitted to the reserve

8 force.

9 JUDGE BONOMY: Was this a particular feature of the time that this

10 meeting took place?

11 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please. Microphone for the witness.

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There were always people like that,

13 people interested in doing that, in joining the police force, even now.

14 But of course a large number of them do not fulfil the criteria and are

15 not taken on. We can even say that's the majority. The majority are not

16 taken on.

17 JUDGE BONOMY: I'm not understanding this at all. Either you get

18 into the police or you don't get into -- surely in time of --

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's right, yes.

20 JUDGE BONOMY: [Previous translation continues] ... if you want to

21 be a policeman, you become a policeman. So what's this particular

22 reference here to approaching and engaging volunteers carefully, and why

23 does it arise in the context of this meeting?

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, that was mentioned

25 because of the fact that individuals like that can be suspect, so we must

Page 39971

1 be careful of not admitting people who might act in a way that does not

2 coincide with police ethics, and quite obviously people were interested in

3 joining up, because this was mentioned. And I know for a fact myself that

4 people came in to us, asking to be taken on board, even from abroad.

5 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, really I'm trying to find out was that

6 something that happened around this time because of the NATO threat that

7 was looming or are you saying that there was nothing unusual about that at

8 this time, that this happened all the time? I mean, I find it a very

9 strange comment in the context of this meeting unless it was a feature of

10 the time.

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Perhaps I wasn't clear enough or

12 perhaps I wasn't interpreted clearly enough. This is something that

13 occurs at all times. Of course, just before a war, as indeed before

14 events of this kind, the number of people interested in joining up was

15 larger. There were more people wanting to join the police force to help

16 the country in defending itself against an aggression.

17 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

18 JUDGE KWON: General, before we break -- before we break, I have a

19 quick question. About these bullet points of your forthcoming tasks, you

20 referred to a passage which says, "We have to put our plans in motion and

21 use the time to mop up the territory from terrorists." Is that very

22 mopping up also "asanacija" in B/C/S?

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Of course not. Asanacija is

24 clearing up the terrain of human bodies and carcasses from livestock, and

25 clearing up the territory of terrorists, the mop-up, means the

Page 39972

1 anti-terrorist activities of the army and police to neutralise terrorist

2 groups, apprehend the terrorists, and so on.

3 JUDGE KWON: What's the B/C/S term for this mop-up, please?

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Literally as it was interpreted. We

5 say "cleaning up the territory of terrorism," of terrorist groups. It's a

6 more complex concept, of course. It involves the uncovery, apprehension,

7 taking into custody, and so on and so forth.

8 JUDGE KWON: Could I get the assistance from the interpreter as to

9 the B/C/S for this mopping up? What word was used in the B/C/S version?

10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I'm not following the --

11 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please. Microphone. Microphone.

12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The word "ciscenja --" I'm not

13 following the interpretation. If you're asking about the word "ciscenja,"

14 then it is the most common use. In English, it would be "cleaning."

15 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. Let me direct the interpreters to page 5.

16 This is the page Judge Kwon was referring to, the end of the first

17 paragraph, the penultimate sentence says: "Within two or three days of an

18 attack we have to put our plans in motion and use the time to mop up the

19 territory from terrorists." And Judge Kwon was asking the interpreters

20 what was the B/C/S for the English words "mop up the territory from

21 terrorists."

22 THE INTERPRETER: The word is "ocistimo," to clean up, to mop up.

23 THE INTERPRETER: The word that is used is "ocistiti."

24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Robinson, that is precisely what

25 I was quoting. I wasn't following the transcript but I quoted that

Page 39973

1 sentence in B/C/S when I asked the general.

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm afraid I can't find that portion

3 of the text.

4 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

5 Q. General, I'll let you know --

6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic, we'll all be speaking B/C/S at the

7 end of this case. But it is now time for the break. We will adjourn for

8 20 minutes.

9 --- Recess taken at 12.25 p.m.

10 --- On resuming at 12.49 p.m.

11 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic to continue.

12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I am sorry, Mr. Robinson. Actually,

13 they've drawn my attention to the fact that I should use the microphone on

14 the left-hand side, but it seems to be making some kind of noise so I have

15 to go back to the other one. I hope that you can hear me now.

16 JUDGE ROBINSON: I understand the microphone which is on now is

17 the one that you will use.

18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes. Ah, this one. Okay.

19 JUDGE ROBINSON: It's to your right. No? It's to his left?

20 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes.

21 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

22 Q. General --

23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Actually, Mr. Robinson, you had some

24 questions in relation to what had been quoted in tab 69. Have you

25 finished? Would you like me to move on?

Page 39974

1 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. Yes, Mr. Milosevic. Thanks for the

2 concern. Are you finished with 69?

3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes. I had finished before you put

4 your questions.

5 JUDGE ROBINSON: Judge Bonomy has some questions.

6 JUDGE BONOMY: I have one more question. One of the items on this

7 document listing the tasks to be undertaken was "raise discipline,

8 behaviour, and appearance of policemen to a high level. Do away with

9 Rambo-style caps and bandannas."

10 Was the wearing of that sort of clothing a problem?

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, there were cases of

12 people wearing that kind of clothing. The entire staff, all the senior

13 officers, were afraid of things like that happening.

14 JUDGE BONOMY: That's your answer, is it? Thank you.

15 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Milosevic.

16 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

17 Q. General, did you attend the meeting held on the 4th of April at

18 the staff? The minutes are in tab 70.

19 A. Yes. It's evident that I attended the meeting.

20 Q. All right. Can it be seen here that all the chiefs of

21 secretariats were reporting at that meeting?

22 A. Yes. That can be seen here.

23 Q. First the chief of Pristina secretariat?

24 A. And then of Kosovska Mitrovica.

25 Q. Let's just see a few of these things that he says. In the second

Page 39975












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 39976

1 bullet after the beginning, in the third row, actually, "Measures were

2 taken to curb terrorism and criminal acts."

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. "35 persons were detained." That means arrested; right?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. "Three of whom are police officers and four members of the reserve

7 composition."

8 Towards the end of the page the chief of secretariat from Pec

9 says: "11 persons were arrested because of crimes and 25 vehicles had

10 been commandeered, probably those that were considered to be stolen.

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. The chief of the Djakovica secretariat says that 38 persons were

13 arrested for perpetrating criminal acts?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And in Prizren 19 persons?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. The chief of the Urosevac secretariat says that 58 civilians and 8

18 volunteers were arrested?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. In Gnjilane, 34 persons, and there was a problem with volunteers

21 in Zegra.

22 A. It's not the perpetrators of the crime that we referred to, but

23 perhaps the word "volunteers" is used wrongly here.

24 Q. In what sense?

25 A. That they were members of the military. Perhaps they volunteered

Page 39977

1 to join the army but they did not act as members of the military outside

2 the military.

3 Q. All right. And then it says about 50.000 persons moved out and

4 about 15.000 persons were returned from the Vranje area. And then

5 paragraph 2 says "Tasks in the future."

6 Is it General Lukic, the head of the staff, speaking at the end?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. What does he say at the very outset? "In wartime the Ministry of

9 the Interior carries out all its work as in peacetime."

10 I hope you've found that.

11 "Has the same attitude to perpetrators of criminal acts as in

12 peacetime, regardless of their ethnicity. Courts will receive

13 instructions on further work in the course of the day."

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And then the fourth bullet from the bottom of the page: "Rigorous

16 measures to be taken against paramilitary units."

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Is this a general statement, a general position?

19 A. A general position that was always made clear because of bad

20 experience from the previous wars with such groups.

21 Q. There's a reference to you on the last page. It says "Obrad

22 Stevanovic, assistant minister."

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. And now, along with the other tasks that you talk about, you say

25 in the sixth bullet: "Protection of civilians is to be carried out at all

Page 39978

1 times."

2 A. That's right.

3 JUDGE ROBINSON: General, may I take you back to the bullet

4 indicating measures to be taken against paramilitary units, and you said

5 that was necessary in the light of previous experience. Can you tell me,

6 enlighten me as to some of that experience with paramilitary units.

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was assumed that paramilitary

8 units outside the Republic of Serbia that are not under the control of

9 appropriate military or civilian organs could be the perpetrators of

10 gravest crimes. That was the assumption. We did not have any concrete

11 data, but that was the prevailing conviction. The idea was to place them

12 all either under the control of the military or of the police.

13 JUDGE ROBINSON: So it wasn't based on any actual experience,

14 because I thought you said that these measures were necessary because of

15 experience that you had had with paramilitary units in previous --

16 previous wars.

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Not because of our own experience,

18 but I can actually mention some experience --

19 JUDGE KWON: General, can I quote you as saying, you said, "That

20 was always made clear because of bad experience from the previous wars

21 with such groups." You said so.

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that's correct. I can explain.

23 I can be very specific about this.

24 We had a general impression of these groups in very general terms,

25 but I'm going to give some specific incidents as well. Paramilitary

Page 39979

1 groups from Republika Srpska, during 1992 and 1993, carried out the

2 well-known attacks against the bus in Mloce near Rudo and they abducted

3 about 17 or 18 civilians. Later these persons went missing and have been

4 missing to the present day. Paramilitary groups also attacked a Yugoslav

5 train on the Belgrade-Bar railway way in the village of Strpce, which

6 happens to be in the territory of Republika Srpska and similarly kidnapped

7 civilians. As far as I know, they have been missing until the present

8 day.

9 I can give a few other incidents of this kind but I would need

10 some time to recall them.

11 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

12 JUDGE ROBINSON: What were the characteristics of paramilitary

13 unit? Yes. I was asking how would you define a paramilitary unit, or

14 could you tell us the characteristics, the features of such a unit.

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That was also one of the problems

16 involved. The question is what is denoted by this. I can say at the very

17 outset that we considered irregular groups to be that. They had military

18 insignia but they were not under the official command of the military or

19 of the police in the state concerned.

20 Of course, we were aware of the fact that this word can denote

21 some regular forms, like the police. In foreign literature and in foreign

22 countries, even the police can be meant by that term. Our interpretation

23 was groups that wore uniforms, that carried weapons but were outside the

24 military chain of command or perhaps were not even under police command.

25 JUDGE ROBINSON: You said that they had military insignia. How

Page 39980

1 have they come by military insignia?

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It must have been a

3 misinterpretation. I said military uniforms and carried weapons but

4 possibly they also had some insignia, some insignia. I cannot recall any

5 of the insignia at this moment because I did not see a person myself whom

6 I would say belonged to a paramilitary unit in terms of uniform, weapons,

7 et cetera.

8 JUDGE ROBINSON: If they did have military insignia, how would

9 they have come by that?

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It depends on what kind of military

11 insignia we mean. They had insignia, but I didn't say of any particular

12 army. Every paramilitary group calls itself a certain name and then they

13 make their own insignia. I repeat, I never had occasion to see anyone

14 like that.

15 If they had insignia of the army, then they would belong to the

16 army, they would not be paramilitary. That is most probably what the case

17 would be. I don't think that an army would allow a paramilitary group to

18 wear its insignia, although abuse of this kind is always possible.

19 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Stevanovic, the two specific examples you gave

20 relating to the Republika Srpska, were these examples of Serb paramilitary

21 groups?

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

23 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right.

25 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Page 39981

1 Q. General, we've dealt with this now, and then General Lukic says:

2 "During the war, the MUP does all its work as in peacetime, has the same

3 attitude towards perpetrators or criminal acts in peacetime regardless of

4 their ethnicity."

5 What you say also, civilians should be protected at all times.

6 A. Yes. It's a bit difficult for me to follow these minutes, I am

7 sorry, because I saw them just now. Obviously they were submitted through

8 the Prosecution.

9 Q. Yes, because they have the appropriate number on the top.

10 A. I never had occasion to see them or read them before.

11 Q. All right. But I'm sure that you recognise this to be a meeting

12 that you attended?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. I imagine that this is not being challenged?

15 A. No.

16 Q. All right. Did you attend the meeting at the staff on the 7th of

17 May in Pristina? The minutes in tab 71. It also has an ERN number.

18 A. Yes, I did attend the meeting. That can be seen on page 1.

19 Q. We can see from here that this meeting was attended, among others,

20 by the deputy federal Prime Minister, it says in the first line,

21 Mr. Nikola Sainovic.

22 A. Correct.

23 Q. There are many quotations here from his contribution to that

24 meeting. I will draw your attention only to a few of them. Namely, at

25 the beginning it reads: "Mr. Nikola Sainovic said..." In the sixth

Page 39982

1 paragraph below, it says: "Apart from destroying the terrorist

2 organisation KLA, our main task will be to secure peace in Kosovo and

3 Metohija. This must be felt by both our citizens and the entire world."

4 A. Yes. That is towards the bottom.

5 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic. Mr. Milosevic, I've already told

6 you you are not to proceed until the Chamber has found the passage.

7 MR. NICE: English page 4.

8 JUDGE ROBINSON: Page 4. Thank you.

9 MR. NICE: Just over halfway down.

10 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. You may continue. Yes.

11 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

12 Q. Further below, towards the end of that paragraph, it says:

13 "Securing stable public law and order and securing citizens and their

14 property must be done by the MUP because we cannot allow the Serbs to be

15 stigmatised --"

16 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters apologise, we haven't found

17 this.

18 JUDGE ROBINSON: That's on page 5 at the top.

19 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

20 Q. You attended that meeting. It says: "Health care must be

21 ensured. Food and medicine must be delivered to those who have abandoned

22 their homes because of the bombing and terrorist actions."

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. I will not quote more, but he says that during the first days of

25 the bombing, the terrorists, led by Hashim Thaci, signalled the terrorists

Page 39983

1 to launch a general attack on civilian facilities, et cetera. A great

2 number of casualties in consequences.

3 Next quotation: "Organise the life of the Albanian population in

4 villages and settlements where the population lives in by registering

5 their places of residence. The loyalty of Albanians towards the state

6 rests on organised life. The goal of organising the Albanian population

7 is that when refugees return, they can come back to a regulated situation

8 in which people have already registered their place of residence. Demand

9 that Albanians establish a body or local commune in each village and that

10 they set up a local authority and local police in grey uniforms to

11 maintain law and order. Record the number of settlements that have been

12 organised in this way and the number of those that haven't had the time."

13 A. Yes. We talked about that when we discussed the campaign to have

14 citizens register in their new places of residence, the temporary places

15 of residence.

16 Q. Three paragraphs below, it says: "Organise mix and organise

17 patrols to check all uniformed and motorised persons. Every uniformed

18 persons must be held accountable for theft because with his uniform he

19 brings shame not only upon himself but upon the state. Those in charge of

20 the police bear great objective responsibility and this responsibility is

21 appreciated if it is said that a specific task cannot be done and why,

22 instead of remaining unsaid."

23 Do we see here another instance of the authorities urging lawful

24 action and proper application of the regulations?

25 A. Yes. This is an example of how the authorities insist that the

Page 39984

1 police and the military act always in conformity with the law.

2 Q. I don't have time to quote much more, but I will end with the

3 conclusions of the leader of the staff, General -- Major General Lukic,

4 who stressed the following: "Speaking of cases and incidents with serious

5 consequences --"

6 JUDGE ROBINSON: [Previous translation continues] ...

7 Mr. Milosevic.

8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] At the beginning of the section

9 dealing with the contribution of Major General Sreten Lukic.

10 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreters note page 22.

11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] In the Serbian version, it's the

12 third page from the end.

13 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

14 Q. "Regarding cases involving grave consequences, everything must be

15 processed as seriously as possible."

16 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters cannot find this particular

17 passage.

18 JUDGE ROBINSON: The interpreters can't find it. We're looking at

19 -- we're looking at a paragraph beginning, "In his closing speech, the

20 head of staff, Major Lukic, said..." Is that where you're reading from?

21 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreters note page 19, towards the bottom of

22 the page.


24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I am reading what it says here:

25 "When cases and incidents result in grave consequences, they must be

Page 39985

1 processed in a very -- in a way suitable to these working conditions."

2 Have you found it?

3 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, we've found it.

4 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well.

5 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

6 Q. "Regardless of whether the act was carried out by terrorists,

7 whether persons died in the army of Yugoslavia and MUP clashes with

8 terrorists or whether these are consequences of NATO bombing, or even

9 crimes of murder under the Criminal Code," et cetera.

10 He also says: "The number of 27 crimes of murder is not realistic

11 as we have information that a greater number of on-site investigations has

12 been conducted and that the number of criminal reports concerning this

13 crime is greater."

14 Is this another indication that actions were lawful?

15 A. It says here that the number 27 sounds too small, and he urges the

16 police to record every incident and take appropriate action.

17 Q. General Lukic goes on to say that in cases involving arson and

18 murder there should be no delay. The suspects must be handed over to the

19 competent judge at once and, "You must ask for a sentence to be pronounced

20 immediately. These sorts of problems have still not be cleared up,

21 especially in Kosovo Polje and Podujevo and Prizren and Djakovica, while

22 Gnjilane has clearly resolved some problems."

23 Next bullet: "Based on the above, it has clearly been stated and

24 specified that no omissions in any case will be tolerated or forgiven."

25 It is an expression in our language that means nobody should be

Page 39986

1 given any leeway or margin of error.

2 A. Yes. I read this at the time, although it was a long time ago and

3 I couldn't remember the details until now.

4 Q. Follows your contribution. You say: "Crime prevention,

5 especially of crimes involving violence and anarchy, is a police priority,

6 because the internal affairs organs shall be held responsible for every

7 broken shop window and each murder."

8 You go on to speak of anti-terrorist actions, about the

9 sanitisation of battlefields, building of defences, preparation of defence

10 against aggression by ground forces. And towards the end of your

11 contribution you suggest that supervisory units be organised in order to

12 be able to take specific measures in case of misconduct by the police.

13 That means an internal control body within the police.

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. This meeting was held on the 7th of May, when the working

16 conditions were the hardest, and still the leadership insists on

17 lawfulness in the conduct of the police.

18 A. I believe this is clear from the passages of these minutes that

19 you quoted.

20 Q. General, did you attend the meeting at the ministry staff of the

21 11th of May? It's tab 72.

22 A. I did.

23 Q. What was the agenda of that meeting? Let me just draw your

24 attention to a couple of things. The tasks include -- or, rather, the

25 tasks are related to the defence of the country, anti-terrorist struggle

Page 39987












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 39988

1 and the establishment of general security in Kosovo and Metohija.

2 Measures undertaken to prevent crime and maintain public law and order in

3 a state of war.

4 Reports are made at this meeting by?

5 A. The commander of the special police units detachment.

6 Q. Here the pages are not numbered, but I can use the ERN number. In

7 fact, they are numbered but this is a bad copy. The ERN number is

8 K0497277. Can you see that?

9 A. My copy is bad as well.

10 Q. In Mr. Nice's service, something was probably glued on top of

11 this, so one part is hidden.

12 This is your contribution. Under item 2, you say: "The incidence

13 of crime was especially discussed at the meeting with chiefs of

14 secretariats. It was said that a case file has to be compiled for every

15 incident. Private wars should be banned because the reputation of the

16 police must be protected and civilians must not be afraid of the police.

17 Special action should be taken to prevent arsons and looting."

18 And you stress how important it is to observe the law in every

19 respect in performing policework. You go on to say that all citizens must

20 be treated lawfully, whereas able-bodied men will be the subject of

21 special checks --

22 JUDGE ROBINSON: What's the page?

23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] It is the last page but one in the

24 Serbian version, which has a total of seven pages, and it is from the

25 contribution of General Stevanovic.

Page 39989


2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I think I said where I'm reading

3 from.

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Item 3: "Departure of civilians

5 ought to be prevented as much as possible." The rest of the text

6 illegible.

7 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

8 Q. And you go on to say: "All citizens are to be treated pursuant to

9 the law." I have already quoted this.

10 A. Follows some organisational and personnel issues.

11 Q. Let me just point out one thing, because Mr. Bonomy expressed a

12 special interest in paramilitary units.

13 General Lukic stresses in the last paragraph of these minutes:

14 "Prohibit the wearing of uniforms by any person who is not an authorised

15 police member or a member of the reserve police force who has been

16 mobilised."

17 How was it possible, General, that there still existed people who

18 wore uniforms and did not have the status of policemen?

19 A. I can only assume that such groups could exist because the

20 conditions in Kosovo and Metohija during the war were very complex and

21 very difficult, and it was difficult to exercise control over the entire

22 territory in every smallest place, and I don't say that they existed.

23 Q. That was tab 72, I suppose.

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. How about the conclusions of that meeting of the 17th and the 11th

Page 39990

1 -- of the 7th and the 11th of May? Were they delivered to the personnel

2 on the ground?

3 A. I know very well that the conclusions were made available to all

4 the personnel on the ground to be followed and acted upon.

5 Q. In tab 73 can we find the minutes of the meeting or, rather, the

6 conclusions of the meeting? It says: "At meetings held on 7th and 11th

7 of May, 1999."

8 A. Yes. That is a list of conclusions from both meetings we've just

9 analysed, meetings of the 7th and 11th of May.

10 Q. Very well. That's the 11th of May. In item 1, it says: "The

11 whole leadership must be informed of the text of the communications from

12 the meeting held with the President of the FRY." We have already reviewed

13 that text.

14 JUDGE ROBINSON: We have been over this already. Move on to

15 another topic.

16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well. Very well.

17 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

18 Q. General, I have received from the office of Mr. Nice a copy of

19 your own agenda where you kept your notes, your organiser. I would like

20 to ask you a couple of questions about those notes, and they are these:

21 To what extent if at all can we see in those notebooks the care for the

22 civilians, equal treatment for all citizens, et cetera?

23 A. In the original text of my agenda or notebook this can be seen

24 very easily. It's clearly visible.

25 Q. So that's your own personal diary or agenda where you make your

Page 39991

1 own notes in your own handwriting as an aide-memoire. So can we see

2 there, then, that efforts were made to prevent crime generally?

3 A. Yes, certainly that can be seen.

4 Q. And can we also see that you are investing efforts to bring the

5 perpetrators of crime to justice?

6 A. Yes, although I don't have the opportunity of following the case

7 through, or following these cases through, because I didn't have my

8 agenda. (redacted)

9 MR. NICE: [Previous translation continues] ... can we go into

10 private session, please?

11 JUDGE ROBINSON: Private session.

12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Robinson, I think that Mr. Nice

13 would have to explain why he's seeking a private session.

14 MR. NICE: [Previous translation continues] ... can we go into

15 private session. The matter is the subject of a motion that's been before

16 the Chamber. It's been before the accused. It's been before the amici,

17 and it's extremely disturbing, matters are being dealt with in this way,

18 but nevertheless. I'm going to ask that everything that's been said about

19 the diary from about the last couple of questions is redacted as well, but

20 can we go into private session?

21 [Trial Chamber confers]

22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Robinson.

23 [Trial Chamber confers]

24 JUDGE ROBINSON: This is the subject of a motion by the

25 Prosecutor, and we had indicated that when the matter arose we would deal

Page 39992

1 with it, but we're going to deal with it in private session. The

2 Prosecutor will then explain his position.

3 Go into private session.

4 [Private session]

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 39993











11 Pages 39993-39996 redacted. Private session.















Page 39997

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 [Open session]

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would really like to

23 ask you something. May I be allowed to say just one sentence, and I have

24 my own security and safety reasons for saying this, for saying what I want

25 to say.

Page 39998

1 JUDGE ROBINSON: We are in public session. We are in public

2 session. Should we return to private session to hear you?

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't mind. I don't mind being

4 in open session to say what I have to say. And it is in my interests that

5 everything we state here should be in open session, and I accept not to

6 mention a single name because that is not an important point for me. But

7 I would like to ask your permission for me to be able to say one sentence.

8 JUDGE ROBINSON: No. I think we need to be in private session for

9 that. Let's go back to private session.

10 [Private session]

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 39999

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 [Open session]

13 JUDGE ROBINSON: We're adjourned until tomorrow, 9.00 a.m. Oh, I

14 see. Apparently it's 2.15 tomorrow. 2.15 tomorrow.

15 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.43 p.m.,

16 to be reconvened on Friday, the 27th day

17 of May, 2005, at 2.15 p.m.