1 Thursday, 16 June 2005

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 9.03 a.m.

5 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic, in relation to the matter that you

6 raised yesterday, if you wish, you should file a written motion setting

7 out the areas of your complaint, and if the Trial Chamber determines that

8 you were unfairly treated, then we will take appropriate action. You

9 might also wish to advert to any course of action that might be taken in

10 the event that you conclude that you were unfairly treated by the

11 termination of your re-examination. Mr. Kay and Ms. Higgins, who have

12 experience in these matters, can assist you.

13 Yes, Mr. Nice.

14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Robinson.

15 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.

16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I would like to say a few things for

17 the record in respect of what you said.

18 JUDGE ROBINSON: No. It will be dealt with by -- by a written

19 motion.

20 Mr. Nice.

21 MR. NICE: I ask for the witness to stay out for two short

22 administrative matters related to how we deal with his evidence that don't

23 need concern him.

24 As the Court will realise, in scheduling material and trying to

25 provide material in a way that's easily managed, I'm perhaps discharging

1 duties that might properly have lain elsewhere, but it does seem to us

2 that with Racak it's going to be helpful for the Court and for the other

3 parties to have both Jasovic's material well scheduled and also to have

4 material about Racak itself well organised.

5 Dealing with Jasovic's material, the Court will remember that I

6 explained yesterday how we were provided not with material we sought but

7 with other material, untranslated. We've sought to identify from that

8 material any that touch upon the issue of Jasovic's evidence. We've found

9 three such statements, one of which doesn't come from this witness but

10 nevertheless relates to the named deceased, and so this chart is going to

11 be reprinted. It's being reprinted, I hope, now and will be available to

12 you with three extra rows, and I'll distribute that, but since I haven't

13 explained it in detail yet to the witness and may not do so, I thought I

14 would explain that in his absence, although I may deal with the content in

15 his presence.

16 The second thing is the witness declined my invitation yesterday

17 to read Racak papers to abbreviate cross-examination. I'll deal with

18 that, the consequences of that, today. However, binders do exist that

19 contain, so far as it's been possible for us to do, contain all relevant

20 Serb-side statements on Racak at about the time. They're either existing

21 exhibits or they're documents that this witness seeks to produce or

22 they're documents sought to be produced by Stevanovic and over which -- in

23 respect of which the Court has yet to make rulings.

24 When I come to that part of the cross-examination, the binders

25 will be available for the Chamber but I know the Chamber's often reluctant

1 to have in hard copy form documents that are existing exhibits and that

2 would thus be duplicated but the binder -- if it's convenient, the binder

3 will be available to you.

4 I should say two things by way of qualification. First, at the

5 moment the binder includes all the documents we've been able to find from

6 the Stevanovic collection that relate to Racak and putting them in this

7 binder for completeness is without prejudice, obviously, to any

8 submissions we might make about their being admitted in due course

9 although my preferred option would be to allow them, I think, to stay in

10 as documents for completeness even if our position on the balance of the

11 documents is that they ought to be excluded.

12 Second, in her meticulous work on analysing the position of the

13 Stevanovic exhibits, Ms. Graham informed me that she believes there are

14 some of the untranslated documents that may cover the issue of what the

15 Serb side said about Racak, and we simply don't have access to that

16 material because there was so much untranslated material. So that

17 although I've attempted to make these files comprehensive and I'm happy to

18 make them available, there is the possibility that other documents will

19 emerge in due course but that's through no fault of ours.

20 That's all I want to explain.

21 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. Thank you. Let the witness be brought in.

22 [The witness entered court]

23 WITNESS: DRAGAN JASOVIC [Resumed]

24 [Witness answered through interpreter]

25 MR. NICE: With Your Honours' leave, I'll continue my

1 cross-examination of the witness.

2 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.

3 MR. NICE: And, Your Honours, I have available binders of Racak

4 documents that I'm happy to make available to the parties in Court or that

5 I can simply lay on the overhead projector. They seek to be

6 comprehensive. I suspect they won't be completely comprehensive but

7 they're drawn largely from Defence proposed exhibits and also from

8 existing exhibits in the case. If that would be convenient, I'll

9 distribute them now.

10 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. Yes.

11 MR. NICE: Thank you very much.

12 Cross-examined by Mr. Nice: [Continued]

13 Q. Mr. Jasovic, while these bundles are being distributed and you may

14 have a copy, of course, yourself, I remind you what you told us yesterday,

15 if I'm correct in this, about the event at Racak, that it was an operation

16 by the MUP. Is that right?

17 A. I said yesterday that I didn't know. Yesterday you asked me

18 whether it was a police operation or a military operation. I said that I

19 don't know. The previous witness who was here before me could probably

20 explain that.

21 Q. Mr. Jasovic, in all these matters we're dependent on witnesses who

22 come here, take the solemn declaration to tell the truth, and I wanted

23 your assistance from your position at the police station. Help me with

24 this: This was a major operation, wasn't it, a major operation?

25 A. Mr. Prosecutor, I really cannot answer whether this was a major

1 operation or a minor operation. As a crime policeman, I had my own line

2 of work.

3 Q. I suggest, Mr. Jasovic, these answers by yours claiming ignorance

4 are dishonest and that a person in your position knew perfectly well that

5 a major operation was under way and indeed you got involved in it. That's

6 my suggestion to you.

7 A. Mr. Prosecutor, I did not participate. I did not elaborate a plan

8 of action. I was not familiarised with anything in terms of when this

9 action would be carried out, that is to say between the terrorists and the

10 MUP of Serbia, this clash. I told you that I had several supervisors

11 above me. The head of the crime prevention police, the head of the

12 Secretariat for the Interior, and it probably had to do with the secrecy

13 of the operation involved. It is just a very narrow circle of people who

14 knew and therefore I simply cannot explain. I couldn't know. But

15 probably General Obrad Stevanovic could have explained that to you. He

16 held that kind of position. He could have told you.

17 Q. Did he? I thought you didn't know what his position was except

18 that he was the assistant minister.

19 A. Yes, yes. Yes, assistant minister. Assistant ministers of the

20 Republic of Serbia are probably persons who hold very high positions.

21 Q. Can we just look very briefly at tab 35 if --

22 JUDGE KWON: Which binder?

23 MR. NICE: Sorry. In the binder we've just distributed. Let's

24 call this the Racak documents. Tab 35. And if -- then if you can follow

25 the tabs, please. The tabs are written on the top, I'm afraid - they

1 aren't physically tabbed - and it's right at the back. This is a short

2 document, and I'm only interested in --

3 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Nice, does this already have an exhibit number?

4 Because -- no, because --

5 MR. NICE: Yes. This is, I think, a tendered document under

6 probably the Stevanovic --

7 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, it must have a number, a potential number,

8 and --

9 JUDGE KWON: It has a cross-reference in the index. It says D3.

10 MR. NICE: Very well. Thank you very much.

11 JUDGE BONOMY: Okay.

12 MR. NICE: I'll get my index out as well.

13 Q. The first paragraph of this document, which is apparently signed

14 by Danica Marinkovic, says the following: "On the 15th of January --" it

15 says 1991 but means 1999, and it says 1999 in the original. "On the 15th

16 of January, 1999, I was informed by the duty officer of the Urosevac SUP

17 that that morning in the village of Racak a terrorist attack had been

18 carried out on a police patrol from Stimlje as they were searching for

19 terrorists who had killed the policeman Svetislav Przic."

20 Does that accord with your recollection?

21 A. If I understood this correctly, policeman Svetislav Przic was

22 killed from an ambush near the village of Slivovo on the 10th of January,

23 1999, not the 15th, if I understood the question correctly.

24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Robinson.

25 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Milosevic.

1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I have the impression that the

2 witness does not have this Official Note in front of him.

3 MR. NICE: Yes, he does.

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I have the Official Note. I've been

5 following it.

6 JUDGE ROBINSON: He has it, Mr. Milosevic.

7 MR. NICE:

8 Q. Is it your recollection --

9 A. Yes. Yes, I do have it, but Svetislav Przic was killed on the

10 10th of January, I think. The policeman Svetislav Przic.

11 Q. My question arising from this passage, which you can re-read again

12 if you choose, is that the operation on the 15th of January was

13 specifically triggered by the killing of Przic. Is that correct?

14 A. Most probably the operation was aimed at finding and arresting

15 Albanian terrorists in the village of Racak. The last killing was the

16 killing of Svetislav Przic on the 10th of January, 1999.

17 In the period from the 15th of June, 1998, until the 15th of

18 January, 1999, several terrorist attacks were carried out against members

19 of the police. On these occasions, several members of the police were

20 killed. Several persons of Albanian and Serb ethnicity and --

21 JUDGE BONOMY: Can I clarify something with you, Mr. Jasovic.

22 Have I rightly understood that your particular responsibility was the

23 investigation of violent offences, particularly terrorist offences? Have

24 I understood that correctly?

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] On the orders of my supervisor, the

1 head of the SUP in Urosevac, I was carrying out the duties that I referred

2 to yesterday related to the establishment of KLA staffs, their activity,

3 on resolving crimes that had to do with terrorist attacks not only the

4 village of Racak but also in surrounding villages. Also in the area of

5 Urosevac and Kacanik.

6 JUDGE BONOMY: But Racak fell within the area for which you had

7 responsibilities.

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Not only Racak.

9 JUDGE BONOMY: I understand. But Racak fell within the area for

10 which you had responsibilities. It was one of the --

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. That was the subject of our

12 operative work before what happened in Racak and after what happened in

13 Racak, because the village of Racak belongs to Stimlje, and the police

14 station of Stimlje is under the Secretariat of the Ministry of the

15 Interior in Urosevac.

16 JUDGE BONOMY: And a lot of your work was to do with gathering

17 intelligence about the activities of KLA active terrorists.

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's correct.

19 JUDGE BONOMY: And you're saying that in spite of all these

20 responsibilities, you knew nothing about the operation that was undertaken

21 at Racak on the 15th of January. That's your position?

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I said that I heard of

23 the operation in the village of Racak on the 15th of January, 1999. I did

24 not know when it was supposed to be carried out. Of course on the 15th of

25 January, I knew.

1 JUDGE BONOMY: You've told us you didn't know who carried it out.

2 You've told us here already you did not know who carried out that

3 operation even afterwards.

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I did not know because of the

5 secrecy of the work involved. As I said, probably the head of the organ

6 and the people working most closely with him knew. I did not know who

7 headed this operation.

8 JUDGE BONOMY: And here we have a report from the investigating

9 judge saying the duty officer at the Urosevac SUP is contacting the

10 investigating judge about the matter. The duty officer, not some person

11 in a senior position dealing with matters that would be regarded as

12 secret.

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, in the absence of the

14 head of the SUP, the head of the duty service practically stands in for

15 the head of the secretariat, not only in relation to this event but also

16 in relation to burglaries and other crimes. The head of the duty service

17 informs the duty investigative judge.

18 MR. NICE:

19 Q. And just to --

20 JUDGE ROBINSON: Just a question. When did you first hear of the

21 operations that took place in Racak on the 15th?

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I heard during the course of the

23 day. I don't remember exactly what time it was, but during the course of

24 the day of the 15th of January, 1999.

25 JUDGE ROBINSON: I see.

1 MR. NICE:

2 Q. And were you instructed, "There's been this big operation,

3 Mr. Jasovic, with all your expertise, we want your help," or were you

4 told, "We've done this big operation, keep your nose out of it"? What's

5 the position?

6 A. Mr. Prosecutor, after the event in the village of Racak, it is

7 only natural that at the request of the public prosecutor we carried out

8 interviews. We started by carrying out interviews with persons who could

9 offer necessary information about the village of Racak. I can say here

10 with full responsibility that before what happened in the village of Racak

11 we did have knowledge that in the village of Racak a substaff had been

12 established, a civilian defence, that they established their own points,

13 and I can also say --

14 JUDGE BONOMY: How many MUP officers did you interview, then, when

15 you say you carried out interviews with persons who could offer necessary

16 information about the village of Racak?

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They were not MUP policemen. They

18 were persons of Albanian ethnicity. I don't know whether the

19 interpretation is right.

20 JUDGE BONOMY: How many MUP officers did you interview in

21 connection with this matter?

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I cannot remember in relation to the

23 event in the village of Racak.

24 MR. NICE:

25 Q. Shall we try and help your memory --

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

1 JUDGE BONOMY: Sorry.

2 MR. NICE: No, Your Honour --

3 JUDGE ROBINSON: No, no.

4 MR. NICE:

5 Q. The answer to His Honour's question is none, isn't it? Null,

6 zero, no single interview.

7 A. Mr. Prosecutor, this probably has to do with the circumstances of

8 the event involved. Above me I had the head of the general department,

9 the head of the crime prevention police, and probably if the policemen

10 during the day were in action I could not speak to the said persons.

11 In relation to the events in the village of Racak, whether the

12 action was carried out and how and whether there were any consequences or

13 whether there were not any consequences, they probably -- or, rather, not

14 probably, since I was assistant commander myself before, they report

15 directly to their immediate superior, whoever that may be, the assistant

16 commander or whoever.

17 MR. NICE: Incidentally, the Court can find, if it's interested, a

18 summary of the interviews - we'll look at them more later -- taken by this

19 witness on the 16th, at page 3 of the schedule I've distributed.

20 Q. The answers to the questions you're being asked is to be found in

21 this, isn't it: You and your colleagues and the investigative judge and

22 everybody else involved as from the 15th were concerned to cover up this

23 crime and try and find an excuse for it; correct?

24 A. That's not correct.

25 Q. Please now explain to me, in light of the questions you've

1 answered of His Honour, how it can be that you engaged to interview people

2 as early as the 16th of January, informed of the event, cannot answer my

3 question as to whether the police and the army were involved?

4 A. I don't know. I did not work out a plan in relation to this

5 action. I don't know whether it was the police and military who took part

6 in this. Probably the police of the MUP of the Republic of Serbia, yes,

7 but as far as the army is concerned, I don't know.

8 Q. Who's concerned to -- why is there a concern to protect the army

9 in this case, please, Mr. Jasovic?

10 A. Mr. Prosecutor, I don't understand. I had my own line of work. I

11 did not elaborate plans. This is a narrow circle in the secretariat who

12 did this with regard to planning, actions, and things like that.

13 Q. Talking to the people the following day, talking to your

14 colleagues, you never discovered that the army had been involved with

15 tanks. Really?

16 A. Mr. Prosecutor, I did not discover that. I'm telling you quite

17 sincerely that I do not know. As for the police, I assume that they were

18 there. The answer is probably yes because somebody had to go up there,

19 but for the army, I don't know that.

20 Q. I'm going to show you a short passage of a film that we've viewed

21 before. Just have a look at it please and listen to it.

22 [Videotape played]

23 MR. NICE: Thank you.

24 Q. Now, you see, you heard -- first of all, Goran Radosavljevic, so

25 far as you know, he's still alive, isn't he?

1 A. Well, I assume he's alive.

2 Q. Yes.

3 A. I don't know exactly, but probably he is, yes.

4 Q. And although the -- we have experience that the subtitles for this

5 particular film are sometimes a summary of what is actually said, you

6 heard Goran Radosavljevic say in terms that the VJ, the army of

7 Yugoslavia, was driving the terrorists out of the village, and you heard

8 him say that the operation lasted six hours.

9 Is this all coming as news to you, Mr. Jasovic?

10 A. Let me tell you quite sincerely. I'm hearing this for the first

11 time. It's all news to me. Then and now, well, I heard about Goran

12 Radosavljevic from the papers. I read about him in the papers. I don't

13 know him to this day, just as I met General Obrad Stevanovic here in The

14 Hague.

15 JUDGE BONOMY: But this -- Radosavljevic is -- he's a MUP

16 official.

17 MR. NICE: Yes. He's the MUP official. But as Your Honours will

18 have seen from the subtitles, he said in terms the army of Yugoslavia, he

19 said "Vojska Jugoslavije."

20 Very well. Now, the Court may wish to look at tab 8, which is

21 much earlier in the binder. I don't ask the witness to look at it because

22 this is only in English but this is the reference on the basis of which

23 I'm asking some questions.

24 Q. Can you help me, then -- I suspect the answer is going to be no,

25 but can you help me with why as early as the 16th of January somebody

1 called Colonel -- Lieutenant Colonel Petrovic, when interviewed by a very

2 senior member of the OSCE, General Maisonneuve, would be declining to

3 acknowledge the involvement of the army? Can you explain - you were there

4 - why that sort of thing would be happening?

5 A. If you're asking me, I can't give you an answer to that question.

6 I don't know.

7 Q. You see, how can we find out, please, the name of the officer in

8 charge of the VJ units attacking Racak, driving out the terrorists? How

9 can we find his name? Can you help us?

10 A. Well, probably you could through a representative of the army of

11 Yugoslavia, the competent authorities. I don't know how I could be of

12 assistance to you otherwise.

13 MR. NICE: The Court may also find similar material on page -- on

14 the following tab, tab 9.

15 Q. Bogoljub Janicijevic was the chief of the secretariat, wasn't he?

16 A. That is correct, yes.

17 Q. Was he the man to whom you answered?

18 A. Yes. He was the superior officer, the head of the Secretariat of

19 the Interior for Urosevac.

20 Q. Can you explain -- and this is, if the Court is looking, at the

21 second page of tab 9 and towards the bottom. Can you explain how or why

22 the police at Urosevac, in the form of Janicijevic, would be lying on the

23 16th of January about the involvement of the VJ and saying that this was

24 only a police action?

25 A. Mr. Prosecutor, I really don't know how to explain this. I can't

1 give you an explanation and explain the words of the then chief of SUP,

2 what he said.

3 Q. Let me make some further suggestions about the chief of the SUP.

4 MR. NICE: And for this the Chamber will need to take another

5 binder, and it's in the Jasovic papers at tab 10.

6 JUDGE BONOMY: Yours or the Defence?

7 MR. NICE: Ours. I'm so sorry. Prosecution binder tab 10. And

8 the witness will have to listen to me read it out because it's not

9 translated.

10 JUDGE KWON: Binder 2.

11 MR. NICE: Binder 2. I'm grateful.

12 Q. Now, a matter of detail about Janicijevic: He was an active

13 member of the accused's party and a delegate to the Serbian parliament,

14 wasn't he, or is that wrong?

15 A. I know that he was a delegate in the Serbian parliament, but

16 whether he was a sympathiser or member of some other party I really don't

17 know. All I know is he was a delegate of the Assembly.

18 Q. I see. You don't know what party he represented. Really?

19 A. Well, it's not up to me to ask senior officers who -- which party

20 they belong to.

21 Q. Well, now, the statement that we're looking at, a redacted

22 statement of somebody who is identified as SS376, explains that as early

23 as the arrival of Danica Marinkovic - paragraph 18, for example, for the

24 Court - there was a delay in the process of investigation of this crime,

25 of this event. Can you explain why on the 16th there was a delay beyond

1 what would normally be expected of an investigative judge?

2 A. Mr. Prosecutor, with respect to why there was a delay, because on

3 the spot Mrs. Danica Marinkovic was there. She was on the scene and so

4 was the team of the Urosevac SUP. They were on location, including crime

5 inspectors and crime technicians. And so probably they would be able to

6 provide you with an answer to this question.

7 Had I been on the spot, on the scene, I would probably be able to

8 give you an answer too.

9 Q. Well, this material, available to us in the form of a redacted

10 statement, explains, at paragraph 29, that Marinkovic didn't initiate an

11 investigation until authorised to do so by Bogi Janicijevic.

12 Now, that would be quite irregular, wouldn't it, for the

13 investigative judge to be subordinate to Janicijevic?

14 A. That is true. It would be irregular. However, I do not know

15 whether that was the case. I could not give you an answer whether that

16 was actually so. But, yes, it would have been irregular had that been

17 true.

18 Q. Is the reason that this happened that there was a representative

19 from Belgrade present in the police station controlling Janicijevic?

20 A. I don't know whether there was a representative from Belgrade

21 present at all.

22 Q. I've already suggested to you that Djordjevic was there and was on

23 the phone to Sainovic. Was there somebody else there whose name can't be

24 given or identified but who actually came from Belgrade? Think about it,

25 please. Or are you going to tell us this was an entirely ordinary day and

1 you were simply sat in your office, taking statements?

2 A. Mr. Prosecutor, I wasn't in the office of the chief of SUP, Bogi

3 Janicijevic, for me to be able to know whether Rodja was there or somebody

4 else or anybody else. I had my jobs and duties to attend to, which I

5 attended to pursuant to orders from my superiors down the chain of

6 command. I didn't know who entered the office or left the office of the

7 chief of the secretariat Bogi Janicijevic, because I see it says

8 "Janicijevic." It's "Janicevic," not "Janicijevic."

9 MR. NICE: If the Court comes back to paragraph 15 of the same

10 statement, you'll see the supporting material that justifies the last

11 question that I've been asking.

12 Q. Very well. We'll go back to the -- you claim ignorance of all

13 these matters, but we'll go back to the Racak documents, and if we --

14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Robinson.

15 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic.

16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Nice is indicating paragraph 15

17 of the statement, which is in English, and the witness, as far as I know,

18 doesn't speak English. So it would be proper for him to read it out to

19 the witness so that the witness can know what he's saying. He just asked

20 him to take a look at paragraph 15.

21 MR. NICE: I'm very happy to read it out, although it will take a

22 little time.

23 "When we --" the witness says this, potential witness says this:

24 "When we arrived at Stimlje police station, outside there were some

25 policemen and they told us we had to go to the second floor. We didn't

1 have any conversations with them other than that. Inside was Bogi

2 Janicevic, Urosevac chief of police. Although we knew each other from

3 before floor, Bogi is what I know him by --"

4 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Nice you may be reading a little too fast.

5 MR. NICE: I'm sorry, yes. "-- and I don't know his full name.

6 Another guy there, first and last names unknown, I didn't know, but I

7 understood from Danica Marinkovic that he was from the State Security

8 Office Belgrade. After that Bogi Janicevic told us he had to wait -- we

9 had to wait in Stimlje because the situation was not secure. It wasn't

10 possible to make any inquiries or investigations..."

11 Q. Now, that's the evidence of the man being there, and we've got the

12 evidence of Marinkovic being stopped from making her investigations by

13 Bogi. Do you have any recollection of that?

14 A. Well, I can't remember because I wasn't there. And most probably

15 Bogi Janicevic, well, he's alive to this day, and I'm sure he would be

16 able to explain the course of events. How can I explain them to you if I

17 wasn't there?

18 Q. Very well.

19 A. Where Mrs. Danica Marinkovic was and Bogi Janicevic.

20 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Robinson.

21 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic.

22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Nice is confusing the witness.

23 Even this witness that has been blacked out, the name of who has been

24 blacked out didn't say that he stopped the investigation. You heard

25 Danica Marinkovic. She said that she arrived in the police station of

1 Stimlje first and that after Stimlje she went to Racak, whereas here it

2 says that it wasn't secure in Racak and that's what Danica Marinkovic

3 said, precisely that, but she went to Racak nevertheless but wasn't able

4 to conduct an on-site investigation. She testified about all that here,

5 whereas Mr. Nice is asking why Janicevic stopped --

6 JUDGE ROBINSON: I think he's putting what is in paragraph 15.

7 MR. NICE: May we -- since the accused raises it - and I want to

8 save time but I'll take as long as is necessary on this topic - paragraph

9 27 of the same statement. If the accused would like to follow it as I

10 read it.

11 Q. Incidentally, before I come to this passage, paragraph 25, the

12 witness refers to some dark-skinned men in blue camouflage who he thought

13 may have been Serbian Gypsies or a Serbian Gypsy group. Do you remember

14 those, with different uniforms?

15 A. This is the first time that I hear about this, that they were dark

16 uniforms and that the Serbian Roma had put those uniforms on. That's the

17 first time that I've heard of anything like that.

18 Q. Paragraph 27 reads, and I'll read it slowly enough for everybody

19 to follow: "Something very unusual, and that was that Danica Marinkovic

20 was waiting from the signal from Bogi Janicevic, who was in civilian

21 clothes, when to start the investigation. I know this because I asked

22 Danica Marinkovic why we were waiting to commence the investigation. She

23 said that she was waiting until Bogi Janicevic told her to start. It is

24 unusual, because when the investigating judge comes to a crime scene, the

25 investigating judge has the authorisation to conduct the investigation

1 according to the law ... The investigating judge is in charge of the

2 scene, and it is very unusual for her to be waiting for instruction from

3 someone else. There was no shooting going on at this stage. Bogi

4 Janicevic and Danica Marinkovic in conversation two or three times ...

5 The state security guy, who was also in civilian clothes, was there. He

6 didn't converse with anyone. He just observed."

7 He wasn't seen to converse with anyone by that witness but he was

8 there apparently to observe. You tell us, please, if you know nothing

9 about the incident, how usual or unusual would it be to have a state

10 security man from Belgrade in your offices - this is at Stimlje, not at

11 Urosevac - in your offices at an operation like this? How unusual?

12 A. I don't know. Once again I can't give you an answer because I

13 don't know. I don't know which witness said this. I don't know whether a

14 member of the state security was there at all, and I don't know the kind

15 of conversation they had, that is to say Judge Danica Marinkovic and

16 Bogoljub Janicevic. So how do you expect me to answer the question when I

17 wasn't there and I don't know all the particulars?

18 Q. All right. Answer me this question: How many times did somebody

19 from the state security of Belgrade come down to be involved in one of

20 your investigations; regularly or irregularly or never?

21 A. Mr. Prosecutor, to my office inspectors of the state security

22 would come who were from the area of Kosovo and Metohija. They were all

23 mostly from Urosevac, the ones who came to see me.

24 Q. Let's move on, please, in the Prosecution's Racak binder, the

25 binder I've distributed this morning, to tab 19, which is about halfway

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

1 through, I think, a bit under halfway through.

2 Now, if you would -- if Mr. Prendergast would display the sheet

3 numbered 3 on the overhead projector.

4 And if you, Mr. Jasovic, would go to the last page for you of this

5 document and to, I think -- yes, the last paragraph, the second part of

6 it.

7 This is a document apparently prepared on the 18th of January, and

8 it provides a summary of events. And in the paragraph we're looking at on

9 the middle of English page 3, it says this: "Trenches were found on the

10 surrounding hills, and in the trenches were shovels and picks used to dig

11 them. On both sides along the whole length of these trenches were

12 Chinese-made ... bullet casings from automatic weapons. At the top of a

13 hill called Vis, we found a bunker covered by timber with a wood-burning

14 stove. Right next to the bunker was a machine-gun nest protected by

15 sandbags, and in front of the sandbags were a mount for a Browning

16 anti-aircraft machine-gun and a larger number of ... bullet casings. A

17 military groundsheet and parts of a military uniform and civilian clothes

18 were found around this bunker, and in the trenches were quilts..." and

19 other items. "Bullet casings from a light machine-gun ... were found..."

20 Next sentence: "A wheelbarrow in which earth was loaded and picks

21 were used to dig the trenches ... were found..."

22 Next sentence: "The bunker had a machine-gun opening aimed at the

23 neighbouring hill. All the bullet casings found... were taken for further

24 testing, and the civilian clothes and parts of the military camouflage

25 uniform were taken because they were material evidence ..."

1 Now, does that accord with what you --

2 JUDGE KWON: It is tab 19, Mr. Milosevic. The newly offered

3 binder from the Prosecution. It's originally D4.

4 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please, Mr. Nice.

5 MR. NICE:

6 Q. Now, this is by the 18th of January. Does this account given seem

7 to fit with your understanding of events?

8 A. This whole account -- Mrs. Danica Marinkovic drew up a report on

9 the -- about the on-site investigation, and on the basis of interviews, as

10 I've already said, with persons of Albanian ethnicity both before and

11 after the events in Racak, I do know that trenches, bunkers, and

12 communicating trenches were dug. I do know that they had a large quantity

13 of weapons that they disposed of. And she described what she found on the

14 spot.

15 MR. NICE: If Mr. Prendergast would be good enough to take one of

16 the two maps. I'm sorry not to have warned him earlier. It would

17 probably be sufficient if we lean it against the window rather than put it

18 on an easel since I forgotten to get you to bring one. It's the other

19 one.

20 Q. Now, I trust you can read a map, can you, or an aerial photograph,

21 read and understand it?

22 A. Well, I'll try.

23 MR. NICE: If the video booth would be good enough to use the

24 camera to focus on that to save time as we haven't got an easel erected.

25 Q. Can you look, please, at the map that's beside you or displayed on

1 your screen. Do you understand how that is Racak? Makes sense to you,

2 does it?

3 A. I think that this place above Stimlje. I worked as a policeman in

4 Stimlje from 1975 to 1981, and Racak is to the south-west of Stimlje or

5 the west of Stimlje.

6 Q. Well, if you'd look at the map, and you can take a minute to do it

7 because there's only one question I want to ask you but I want you to have

8 it in mind for the rest of the questions I ask you. Look at it on the

9 screen or beside you.

10 I'll tell you what the evidence is. The evidence is that the

11 position marked 5 is a trench where some 20-odd bodies were found, and the

12 other markings - now I can't see it but I can roughly remember - I'll have

13 to look at it again very briefly - the positions marked 3, 4, 2, 1, and so

14 on, if you look at them - you can have it back now - are amongst places

15 where other bodies were found, sometimes three men, sometimes a man and

16 somebody else, all quite some distance from the trench. You see? So that

17 there were bodies at the position marked 5 and bodies found dead at all

18 those other positions a long way away, or a considerable distance away.

19 Now, if you can understand that. Can you understand that? Bodies

20 found at position 4, 3, 1, 2, and so on.

21 Now, please tell me: First, from the document you've just read

22 which comes from Marinkovic, any explanation of whether weapons were

23 recovered from those outlying places of death?

24 A. Mr. Prosecutor, I wasn't on the scene so I cannot answer. I

25 cannot tell you where the bodies were found and the weapons were found,

1 what exact spot. There was a team that was on location together with

2 Danica Marinkovic, and they would probably know.

3 Had I been there, had I been on the scene, I would be able to

4 answer your question.

5 Q. You see, Danica Marinkovic didn't conduct an investigation into

6 this. She wasn't instructed to. Were you instructed, with all your

7 interest in terrorism, to conduct an inquiry into this?

8 A. Not specifically. In view of the fact that before the event in

9 the village of Racak we worked operatively to throw light on the

10 terrorist --

11 Q. Before I move on to my next question --

12 A. As I was saying -- I apologise. There's some interference in my

13 headsets.

14 Q. As you've explained -- so there is in mine. As you explained

15 earlier, you interviewed no policeman or, come to that, member of the army

16 about how people were killed, did you?

17 A. As to the circumstances, let me say that the interview with the

18 policemen was probably conducted by their superior officers.

19 Q. I think my question was quite easy, but I'm going to ask you to

20 answer it.

21 A. Well, linked to the circumstances of the event in Racak, as I say,

22 I did not conduct interviews with policemen.

23 Q. And you heard Goran Radosavljevic on the tape that we looked at

24 explain that they got orders for the liquidation of terrorists, not orders

25 to get people in for investigation. It all fits together, doesn't it?

1 This was an operation to liquidate those people in Racak. It was not in

2 any sense an operation to investigate them.

3 A. Mr. Prosecutor, to conduct an investigation, well, I said a moment

4 ago that it would be normal for an investigation to be conducted after

5 every event. Not only the event in the village of Racak, but any event it

6 would be normal to conduct an investigation if -- that is to say to

7 conduct interviews, to talk to persons who are thought to be able to

8 provide information about the event that took place.

9 Now, as for Mr. Radosavljevic, I cannot explain here what he said.

10 I don't know what he said.

11 Q. He did say that they had orders to liquidate the terrorists,

12 didn't he?

13 A. Mr. Prosecutor, I don't know.

14 Q. Can you turn now to tab 20, and I would like you to look at the

15 original. That's in the latest, today's filing. It's a document that

16 came from Stevanovic.

17 MR. NICE: I've been seeking a translation of it for I don't know

18 how long, sometimes giving it a higher priority than at other times. I

19 never had one, I don't know what it means, but out of completeness I

20 think the witness may be able to help us. Maybe it will solve the

21 problem. It's a document he can interpret for us.

22 Q. Have a look at this document. We don't have a translation of it.

23 One hasn't been provided. Unless Ms. Anoya has got one. No.

24 So before you leave the witness box, you tell us what this is all

25 about.

1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] There's nothing in tab 20. I assume

2 that this is Mr. Nice's tab 20.

3 MR. NICE: Tab 20 of this morning's document. If the accused has

4 trouble finding it ...

5 Q. Now, this is what we've been provided by Obrad Stevanovic in --

6 blocked in some 4 or 500 documents, and it may relate to the issues I've

7 been asking you about, so since you're the only witness I can turn to at

8 the moment, help me. What is this?

9 A. Based on what I can see here, this is a document drafted by

10 criminal investigation technicians, something from their scope of work.

11 There is a form here and then photographs which are not clear. So I

12 couldn't tell you what it is about.

13 Q. Does it --

14 A. The photocopy is rather bad.

15 Q. Does it have something to do with the finding of weapons? That's

16 what I'm interested for your assistance on.

17 A. The image is quite bad, so I couldn't tell you what it is about.

18 The photographs are not clear.

19 Q. Okay. Keep going on to the end of the document because there are

20 some lists at the end.

21 A. A list, a report on crime investigation. Then I see 0.4. A crime

22 technician would be in a better position to explain this than I am.

23 The only thing I can see here is that the Secretariat of the

24 Interior in Urosevac, criminal investigation department, forwarded to

25 Judge Danica Marinkovic photo documentation made on site, and then there

1 follows a list of equipment found in the village of Racak, the date 18th

2 of January, 1999, report on --

3 Q. [Previous translation continues] ...

4 A. -- crime investigation completed on site, and then there are some

5 sketches. What page did you tell me to look at it?

6 Q. Does it say anything about where the material was found?

7 A. It says here a list of equipment found in the village of Racak on

8 the 18th of January, 1999. Under 1, military shirt. 2, camouflage

9 military jacket. But it doesn't say here where this was found. I assume

10 there is a report indicating this, but I can't really go into whether

11 there is a report on these issues or not or where these objects were found

12 in exactly which spot in Racak. It says here winter coat, hat, and so on.

13 Q. Very well. Now, the next thing that I want you to deal with

14 chronologically, to save some time, is better found in the Prosecution's

15 earlier bundle, volume 1. And if you would go, in the bundle that

16 Mr. Prendergast will hand you, to the end, to 2.23, you'll find a

17 statement that you took on the 20th of January, or a statement you claim

18 to have taken. You see that statement?

19 A. Tab -- which tab?

20 Q. Tab 2.23, right at the end of the first volume.

21 JUDGE KWON: It's part of tab 5.

22 MR. NICE:

23 Q. Yes, tab 5, right at the end. You have that now. Just

24 familiarise yourself with it.

25 A. I don't have any statement of mine --

1 Q. Right at the end.

2 A. -- under 2.23.

3 Q. Right at the back.

4 A. Yes. However, this is not a statement. This is an information,

5 if we're looking at the same document.

6 Q. Well, tell us where you got the information from, then, please.

7 A. If we can go into private session, please, just like we did last

8 time.

9 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, private session.

10 [Private session]

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 [Open session]

10 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Nice, if you could remind me of the linkage of

11 this man with the report written by this witness.

12 MR. NICE: The identification process, the connection to the male

13 nurse is the source we used to track down a person.

14 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.

15 MR. NICE:

16 Q. And this person, let me explain to you, Mr. Jasovic, says the

17 following: That he lived in Ferizaj until March of 1999 -- I beg your

18 pardon. Paragraph 6 in the English. In June he was living in Ferizaj,

19 moved there at the end of May because it wasn't safe to live in Racak.

20 Now, just pausing there for a minute.

21 Remember I asked you yesterday whether the police had attacked and

22 burnt down a large part of Racak. Thinking back, it's true, isn't it, a

23 large part of Racak was devastated by the police in 1998.

24 A. I don't know about a large part of Racak. It is possible that the

25 houses were damaged during the conflict between the Albanian terrorists

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

1 and members of police. It is probable that a couple of houses in the

2 village of Racak were damaged then. What I said was based on the

3 statements that I took and on the interviews with Albanians.

4 Q. I suggest that that's as dishonest an answer as many others and

5 you knew full well that Racak had been laid waste in part by the police,

6 and intentionally.

7 A. Mr. Prosecutor, I disagree. From my point of view, that is not

8 true. There were no intentions on the part of the police -- or, rather,

9 what they intended was to find the perpetrators of terrorists acts, to

10 find them and arrest them.

11 Q. Now, this same person, having left Racak for Ferizaj, returned

12 only a couple of occasions to Racak, the first occasion being a couple of

13 days after the massacre and the second on the day of the funeral, or some

14 of the funerals, on the 11th of February.

15 Do you remember the day of the funeral, the 11th of February?

16 A. I don't remember the date. You mean the date when there was a

17 funeral in the village of Racak, when those who were killed in Racak were

18 buried? I don't remember the date, but I remember it was in February.

19 Q. And this person says that it was before that date, before the date

20 of the funeral - paragraph 7 - on the 5th, with another person travelling

21 towards Stimlje from Ferizaj, they were stopped at a police checkpoint,

22 asked for identification and then told to go immediately to your police

23 station, indeed escorted there. Does that accord with what was happening

24 at about that time, checkpoints and people being brought in for

25 questioning?

1 A. Mr. Prosecutor, as for this particular person, what I can tell you

2 is that on that day he came to see me on his own will, voluntarily. His

3 wife also came on several occasions. I think that she was a nurse. I

4 don't remember her name. They came several times to inquire about the

5 murder of her father, and so did her husband. They wanted to know who

6 killed her father and the father-in-law of the male nurse. They came

7 several times. They wanted information from us. They wanted to see how

8 far we got.

9 Q. What date is it you're saying that they came to you?

10 A. I don't know. I don't remember what date it was. What I remember

11 is that they came several times, even before the events in Racak, because

12 his father-in-law -- or, rather, her father was killed, I think in late

13 1997, in front of his house in the village of Petrastica, and they came to

14 inquire about the information we managed to get about the victim.

15 Q. You see, he goes on to explain how on this day, which he says is

16 the 5th of February, on arrival at the police station he saw people being

17 beaten by the police. He was interviewed in a room on the second floor by

18 you. Didn't know you at the time and didn't know your rank. You were in

19 plain clothes and you were in company with another man with a long

20 moustache, so that would be Sparavalo --

21 A. Mr. Prosecutor, I missed the date. What date did you say?

22 Q. 5th of February. He said that in --

23 A. You mean in 1999?

24 Q. I do. And he says that in your room there were baseball bats

25 behind the door and bloodstains on the wall. This was a place where

1 people had been and were being beaten. Do you remember that?

2 A. It's not true that they were beaten, and it also is not true that

3 he was there on the 5th of February. I can see here that this information

4 was compiled on the 21st of February, and what I can confirm is were he to

5 confirm his allegations here, he would face serious problems, as would his

6 family. They would be ostracised.

7 What I'm telling you here is the truth. It is true that he came

8 on the 20th of January.

9 Q. Mr. Jasovic, that's always going to be your account, isn't it,

10 that everybody else, everybody else is lying except you and that

11 everybody's prepared to -- that's your account, isn't it? But you see,

12 this man's no longer there. He doesn't live there any more. No one to

13 ostracise him. Now, explain.

14 A. I don't know where he lives now.

15 Q. No, I'm telling you that.

16 A. He has his relatives. He has family in Racak, close relatives and

17 also distant relatives. So it's not just that he alone would face

18 consequences. He also wants to spare his close and distant relatives any

19 potential consequences. I'm very familiar with the customs among the

20 Albanians.

21 Q. I see. So he goes on to explain how the conversation you had with

22 him was about picking up the body for the funeral, although he was shown

23 some photographs of bodies for identification. Does that make any -- does

24 that stir any recollections of yours?

25 A. I did not have the photographs of corpses. I'm telling you, the

1 last time I talked to him was on the 20th of January, 1999, and I don't

2 know what photographs of corpses you are referring to. I'm telling you

3 the truth.

4 I can also understand him for giving such a statement.

5 Q. It's very convenient, isn't it, to have an unsigned document from

6 somebody who, to your knowledge, had left the country?

7 A. Mr. Prosecutor, the Ministry of the Interior is entitled to

8 compile various Official Notes, reports, information, and so on based on

9 the conducted interviews, and I continue to do that to this day.

10 Q. Can you look at --

11 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Nice, is it -- I've only been reading these

12 quickly, but is it correct to say that the statement that you now have

13 either acknowledges -- or either says that a person was not in the KLA or,

14 alternatively, says that the witness doesn't know whether the person was

15 in the KLA and that on no occasion does he actually confirm membership of

16 the KLA?

17 MR. NICE: I think that's probably correct for this witness.

18 JUDGE BONOMY: Yes.

19 MR. NICE: I mean, some -- some statements do and some statements

20 don't.

21 Q. Take a look at something. I'll track it down. Take a look at

22 this one. To save time if Mr. -- If Mr. Prendergast would just take this

23 and show this to the witness and lay it on the overhead projector.

24 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Nice, please correct me if I'm wrong: Did the

25 witness agree that this man is the very male nurse?

1 MR. NICE: We can only tie him down by the evidence that I think

2 you'll find in tab 3. And if you remember, we sought names and details

3 and we were provided with nothing further. No, not tab 3. Tab 2 it must

4 be, Ms. Murtagh who explains the circumstances of finding this witness.

5 That's in your tab 2, and it's at paragraph 9.

6 JUDGE BONOMY: I don't have a tab 2. Tab 2.1 but --

7 JUDGE KWON: Binder 1.

8 MR. NICE: Binder 1, tab 2. Prosecution's documents, binder 1,

9 tab 2. It's expressed very barely there, but I can answer His Honour

10 Judge Kwon's question in this way in amplification of paragraph 9 which

11 says that she identified the witness at tab 2.23 from information provided

12 to the Court during the Jasovic testimony, and she then gives the name.

13 And without giving the name, in answer to His Honour Judge Kwon's question

14 I can state what the position is.

15 The provider of the information was described as a medical

16 technician from the village whose surname the witness could not recall but

17 whose wife was from Petrastica village in Stimlje and whose father died on

18 the 28th of November, 1997, his name being Dugolli.

19 Ms. Murtagh travelled on the 17th of May, to Petrastica, located

20 the Dugolli family -- it may be that I must ask for the Dugolli family to

21 be redacted and maybe we can go into private session while I conclude this

22 answer or explanation.

23 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, private session.

24 [Private session]

25 (redacted)

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 [Open session]

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. President, could I say

21 something? I said to Mr. Prosecutor that the source of information was

22 the registered informer and the male nurse. So the information came from

23 two sources of information, not just from one person.

24 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you.

25 MR. NICE:

1 Q. Now, that may be new. We'll have to check the transcript to see

2 whether this is new, but just tell us, if it was your registered

3 informant, who is that by name?

4 JUDGE KWON: We are in public session.

5 MR. NICE:

6 Q. But is this the one who is dead?

7 A. Yes. Yes. Killed by Albanian terrorists.

8 Q. Any need to protect his name? I thought so. Yes.

9 A. My concern are his children. I believe that it would be necessary

10 to protect them. His children live there.

11 Q. I think we've had his name already, but --

12 JUDGE BONOMY: It was in private session.

13 MR. NICE: It was in private session. Very well.

14 Q. I'll come back to that in a second, but I'm going to ask you to

15 deal with a little problem, if you'd be so good, Mr. Jasovic, with the

16 Court's leave, before any break. We've had evidence -- and I'll give you

17 the detail of it after the break. We've had evidence that there were two

18 houses in Racak where people were waiting on the night in question, or

19 where they were gathered together on the night in question. The occupants

20 of one of those houses was driven into the gully, on the evidence, and

21 executed. The occupants of the other house all escaped.

22 Do you follow my analysis, my summary of part of the evidence thus

23 far? Do you follow it?

24 A. Yes, yes. I am following you.

25 Q. What I'm going to ask your help with is this: Given the police

1 view that everyone in Racak was KLA, can you explain, please, how all

2 those people who were in the other house and who escaped are not subject

3 of reports by you that they were members of the KLA, whereas a large

4 number of those who were taken to the gully and killed are subject to such

5 reports? Can you explain that odd feature to me?

6 A. Mr. Prosecutor, now when I look through my documents I claim to

7 you with full responsibility from the list of killed persons in the

8 village of Racak 14 persons were members of the KLA, and that's the

9 information that we had before what happened in Racak. And for 16 persons

10 we had information after what happened in Racak.

11 Now that I've read the materials, I claim to you with full

12 responsibility that I have found an additional 81 persons that were

13 members of the KLA, because the first staff was established in the village

14 of Rance and the village of Racak. When, rather, the staff in Racak was

15 established, all the persons from Rance transferred to Racak, the village

16 of Racak. And I saw that out of these 81 persons, 74 were from the

17 village of Racak, 7 were from the surrounding villages - I don't know, I

18 think from Petrovo.

19 Let me tell you one more thing: In the village of Racak, in my

20 opinion, not 40 people lost their lives, as it says in the indictment, 45

21 persons would be the number. Because Sadik Mujota was also killed ,

22 Mehmet Mustafa, Kadri Sulja, Ahmet Kaciku, and Skender Sharri. And we

23 have knowledge, information that all these persons are members of the KLA.

24 Now it is not clear to me why these bodies were not among the bodies in

25 the mosque. I am stating all of this to you here with full

1 responsibility. I know that Ahmet Kaciku is the name of the main street

2 in Urosevac. Now, that's the truth. And I have more material, more

3 documents. I'm going to bring it to you, Mr. Prosecutor. I didn't manage

4 to photocopy it, I am sorry. You can have a look at all of that, and you

5 can assure yourself of that.

6 Q. Mr. Jasovic, your memory seems to be very good at the moment.

7 Forty-five persons, 40. You remember this all. Do you remember what you

8 saw in the mosque, do you? Do you remember what you saw in the mosque?

9 A. I don't remember what I saw in the mosque. I don't understand.

10 Those persons were not among the 40 persons identified. I was not in

11 Racak, but there were 40 bodies in the mosque. But these bodies were not

12 in the mosque. I compare that on the basis of the list of identified

13 persons.

14 JUDGE ROBINSON: It's time for the break. We will adjourn for 20

15 minutes.

16 --- Recess taken at 10.35 a.m.

17 --- On resuming at 10.59 a.m.

18 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Nice.

19 MR. NICE: Just to tidy a couple of things up. So far as His

20 Honour Judge Kwon's question about connection is concerned between the

21 person and the person identified, the Court will find at the end of the

22 statement made to the investigators by the person concerned at 2.23 his

23 own summary of the history that ties him to the evidence given by this

24 witness.

25 Tidying up a point and an answer to His Honour Judge Bonomy about

1 what the statement said about membership or not of the KLA, we'll see more

2 of that with other statements in due course. Indeed, there are

3 identifications of KLA people, there are explanations for the perceptions

4 of people as members of the KLA, and there are both -- and there are

5 denials of people being active members of the KLA, three categories, and

6 we'll see it in different statements.

7 JUDGE BONOMY: But are there any in the first category in this

8 particular statement was all I was concerned about.

9 MR. NICE: I think probably not, no. There's a very great number.

10 JUDGE BONOMY: My comment was confined to that statement.

11 MR. NICE: Very well.

12 Q. Before I turn to the question I set up by providing a document to

13 this witness, Mr. Jasovic, your last answer was long and fulsome and

14 speaks of a good memory. Over the break have you been able to remember

15 anything else as a result of the questions I asked you, for example about

16 the involvement of the army or anything of that sort, thinking back, or is

17 it all still a blank?

18 A. In relation to members of the military, I still have a blank in my

19 memory.

20 Q. Now, would you look, please, at the document that's displayed on

21 the overhead projector. It's perfectly positioned, and it happens to be

22 one -- unfortunately, I think I've now -- I think this is 1.16 in the

23 Jasovic binder, and we can see that it's a statement dated, or allegedly

24 dated the 19th of September of 1998, but I'm interested, please, in the

25 handwriting at the top right-hand corner. Whose handwriting?

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

1 A. Let me just give this some thought. This is not my handwriting

2 for sure. This is a statement which was faxed to Colonel General

3 Djordjevic. This is probably one of the chief's handwriting, either for

4 general crime or of the other crime prevention department. But obviously

5 maybe the head of the crime prevention police. I'm not sure, but there is

6 a high degree of probability, because this was a statement that was sent

7 on to him or, rather, this general.

8 Q. Do you recollect that you were having to provide information to

9 Djordjevic? It's Radoslav Djordjevic, isn't it?

10 JUDGE KWON: It's a Defence exhibit.

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] My information was forwarded to my

12 supervisor, to the head of the organ, for further analysis and processing.

13 I don't know who the head of the organ sent these statements to.

14 MR. NICE:

15 Q. Well, it's Colonel General Djordjevic, is it, at this stage,

16 rather than colonel?

17 A. I said colonel general.

18 Q. Very well.

19 A. I did say colonel general.

20 Q. Was he, to your knowledge, putting either your superiors or indeed

21 you yourself under pressure to provide material of this kind?

22 A. Not on me for sure. I don't even know him. It was only once that

23 I saw him, when I was at that prison in Lapusnik. Once in my life.

24 That's the only time I saw him. I really cannot answer whether he exerted

25 any kind of pressure on the head of the secretariat.

1 MR. NICE: Your Honours, before I part from this, and just to

2 assist you in case you encounter the same curiosity that I did, this

3 inscription or "to General Djordjevic" in one format or another turns up

4 on several of the original documents provided by the accused through

5 Jasovic. It also appears sometimes in translations of documents where you

6 won't find it on the original. That reflects the fact that, if you

7 remember, some of these documents had already been in existence and had

8 been translated, so that when the originals were handed over, CLSS

9 discovered an existing translation. They made that available. They

10 probably didn't appreciate that there was this one -- this one item that

11 existed in the version they'd seen which didn't exist in the other

12 version. It's a curiosity, but nevertheless we have the witness's answer

13 on it so far as this document is concerned, which he did peruse.

14 And my analysis of the documents is that -- sorry, we provide the

15 translation, not CLSS, Ms. Dicklich informs me. But it appears that these

16 documents can be found, or these writings to Djordjevic can be found both

17 before and after Racak.

18 Q. Would you now turn in the binder distributed this morning, the

19 Racak documents, to tab 33, which is towards the end. It's in this

20 format, a document sought to be produced via Stevanovic.

21 And if the witness would like, please, to look at the Serbian

22 original but the overhead projector displaying the English. Thank you.

23 JUDGE BONOMY: Do we find the Stevanovic number somewhere, to keep

24 track of this?

25 JUDGE KWON: It's tab 397 of Stevanovic binder.

1 MR. NICE: I have to express gratitude tinged with some other

2 emotion at His Honour Judge Kwon's fingertip knowledge of exhibit numbers,

3 but I better not try and ingratiate myself to the Court.

4 Ah, they're on our index. In which case then I think I'm going to

5 withdraw all these emotions and transmit them to Ms. Dicklich and

6 Ms. Graham. But it's of great benefit in this sometimes difficult work to

7 have people with such knowledge one way and another helping us out on

8 matters of detail. Right.

9 Q. Who wrote this document? Can you help us?

10 A. I can't see a signature on this document. I cannot explain that.

11 I can't see who signed it. I cannot explain. How could I know? Probably

12 -- well, I don't know. I assume - this is just an assumption - but

13 probably the head of the organ. I don't know. I can't see a signature.

14 Q. All right. Let's just look at a couple of passages. Let me

15 explain to you: This has been provided by the accused through one of his

16 witnesses, and since it's a document that apparently relates to Racak, I'm

17 seeking your assistance. But let's look at the very first paragraph. It

18 reads as follows: "In order to arrest the terrorist group which carried

19 out an armed attack near the village of Slivovo on the Stimlje-Urosevac

20 road on the 10th of January 1999 at 0830 hours on the official vehicle of

21 the Urosevac SUP --"

22 A. "Official vehicle."

23 Q. "-- M616-424, carrying the Stimlje police station deputy commander

24 Nenad Mitrovic, Stimlje police station officer Svetislav Przic and Stimlje

25 police station reserve force member Miroslav Zivic, during which the

1 policeman Svetislav Przic was mortally wounded ..."

2 Just pausing there. Was it standard to send just two policemen to

3 arrest a terrorist group?

4 A. I would not know how to answer this question. These are

5 assessments by higher officers, probably the head of police would be in a

6 position to answer. I don't know that.

7 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: Could the other microphone

8 please be turned on for the witness, thank you.

9 MR. NICE:

10 Q. Mr. Jasovic, as you explained to us, and in particular His Honour

11 Judge Bonomy, you were dealing with terrorism for many years, or some

12 years. My question was: Would it be --

13 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic.

14 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please. Microphone. The

15 interpreters cannot hear the speaker.

16 JUDGE ROBINSON: Could you start again, Mr. Milosevic.

17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I'm saying that this is a completely

18 incorrect interpretation of what it says here, and as for Mr. Nice's

19 mocking, that is a question of his professional level. This is not a

20 question of two persons being asked to arrest terrorists. This is a

21 pretty long paragraph saying, with a view to arresting a terrorist group

22 which carried out an armed attack near the village, et cetera. And it

23 ends by saying that on the morning of the 15th of January, the action

24 ended by dealing with a group in Racak. So this entire paragraph is quite

25 clear.

1 JUDGE ROBINSON: We have the point now.

2 JUDGE BONOMY: I think that's correct, Mr. Nice.

3 MR. NICE: It may well be correct --

4 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for Mr. Nice, please.

5 MR. NICE: It may be correct, and if so, there's no point to be

6 made.

7 Q. But just help us, please, from your knowledge: What was Przic and

8 Mitrovic doing on the day that Przic was killed?

9 A. Well, they were doing their jobs. I cannot explain this because

10 there are these patrol sheets listing assignments that people get from the

11 chief of the police station. I cannot state what they were doing exactly

12 on that day.

13 From 1986 I have not worn a uniform, so I have not been kept

14 abreast of what the uniformed police were doing.

15 Q. Well, I may return to that point a little later, but my principal

16 interest in this document can be found later on. We'll just summarise for

17 your benefit what the various paragraphs say as you haven't seen the

18 document before. It asserts in the second paragraph 110 policemen were

19 assigned with -- to carry out the operation. It makes no reference to the

20 army.

21 The next paragraph deals with information about the Main Staff of

22 the so-called KLA.

23 The next paragraph deals with the start of the police operation.

24 The next paragraph deals with the advance of the police into the

25 village and being fired on, firing back.

1 The next paragraph says that when entering the village and

2 throughout their search they were subject to gunfire.

3 The next paragraph, at 1510 the terrorists fired sniper rifles at

4 Trajkovic which ricochetted and hit a spare automatic rifle magazine on

5 his chest.

6 Next paragraph - thanks, Mr. Prendergast - equipment of the

7 police, including an armoured vehicle.

8 The next paragraph deals with the police using stated weapons "to

9 repulse attacks exclusively against terrorists," it says.

10 Next paragraph, when the police force members were approaching

11 Racak and attempting to capture members and terrorist gangs and inviting

12 them to surrender, the armed terrorist groups refused to surrender, and

13 firing heavily, retreated from the village towards Krsina hill and the

14 village of Luzhnice, the village of Rance, and the village of Petrovo and

15 Stimlje.

16 Next paragraph, despite pursuit and appeals to surrender, the

17 terrorist group refused to surrender and kept firing. Next sentence:

18 "The terrorists fiercely attacked the approaching police from the

19 previously prepared trenches and bunkers." Then these bits in detail:

20 "Forty Siptar terrorists, most of them wearing uniforms of the so-called

21 KLA, were liquidated in the said exchange of fire."

22 "By capturing the trenches and bunkers used by the Siptar

23 terrorists --" in fact, I'm going to ask you if you wouldn't mind, please,

24 just to make sure that our translation is accurate on this, to read out

25 loud when we find it the Serbian --

1 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Nice, before you ask the question --

2 MR. NICE: Yes.

3 JUDGE ROBINSON: -- can I ask you, if that account of the event in

4 Racak is accepted, what, if any, offence or crime would have been

5 committed by the Serbs?

6 MR. NICE: I think that's, if I may say so, not a question that's

7 it's possible to answer in quite a yes/no way, but obviously depending on

8 the degree to which this account was established as being true or possibly

9 true, then it might affect culpability. But let me say straight away the

10 simple approach of this account is not accepted, and it's not going to be

11 under any circumstances the version I forecast arguing for at the end of

12 the case.

13 JUDGE ROBINSON: That's not your case.

14 MR. NICE: No, absolutely not. I mean, there are parts of it

15 that --

16 JUDGE ROBINSON: I know it's the Serb version, but I'm asking you

17 because it may be that the Chamber might accept that version.

18 MR. NICE: Well --

19 JUDGE ROBINSON: We have two versions.

20 MR. NICE: Your Honour, we'll wait and see, and I will make my

21 position quite plain, if I haven't made it plain already, as to why this

22 version is one that should be ultimately rejected.

23 Let's see if we can find the paragraph in the Serb version that we

24 want to follow.

25 Q. Can you tell me, please, Mr. Jasovic, what page we're on in the

1 Serb version for the passage I've taken you to?

2 A. You mean this part where Mehmet Mustafa's house was investigated?

3 Q. No. I --

4 A. You read very fast. I could not really follow everything. I've

5 been trying to follow, though.

6 Q. Can you find the passage that begins -- the paragraph that begins,

7 "By capturing the trenches and bunkers used by Siptar terrorists."

8 THE INTERPRETER: The microphone is not on again.

9 JUDGE ROBINSON: If you are speaking, speak into the microphone.

10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I wish to assist the witness. It is

11 the third paragraph from the bottom up on the second page of the Serbian

12 text.

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. Yes, I've found the paragraph.

14 Yes, I have found it now.

15 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for Mr. Nice, please.

16 MR. NICE:

17 Q. Could you -- please, Mr. Jasovic, would you now read that

18 paragraph slowly enough for the interpreters' assistance, and we'll follow

19 it in our English version.

20 A. "Taking trenches and bunkers that were used by the Siptar

21 terrorists." Probably Siptar terrorists. "Members of the police in them,

22 in addition to the mentioned corpses, found and took away 36 automatic

23 rifles, Chinese make, one machine-gun Browning 12.7 millimetres, two

24 machine-guns, 1.802 bullets of different calibres, 6 hand grenades of

25 Chinese make, two hand grenade bags, one hand-held radio transmitter,

1 Fisher Price is probably the make, one pair of binoculars, one rifle

2 cleaning kit."

3 Q. That's as far as I need you to go on that paragraph. And the

4 original Serbian text makes it absolutely clear that the weapons,

5 including the 36 automatic rifles, were said to have been found in the

6 trench where the bodies were found. Clear?

7 A. I mean, it's clear what it says in this paragraph. I can give an

8 answer.

9 Q. To what question? I haven't asked you another question yet.

10 A. All right.

11 Q. Now, let's go on in the rest of this anonymous but apparently

12 authorised summary. The next paragraph - follow me and I'll go a little

13 more slowly - refers to an on-site investigation.

14 The next paragraph deals with developments of events and the

15 problems for the on-site investigation.

16 The next short paragraph deals with withdrawal of the police to

17 Stimlje police station.

18 The next paragraph deals with what happened at 1830 in the evening

19 of the same day, with a hand grenade apparently thrown at a vehicle.

20 Then the next paragraph says this, and I'll read it in English but

21 please follow it in the Serbian. It says: "Because it was impossible to

22 conduct a comprehensive and thorough inspection of the site and on-site

23 investigation in the Racak village sector, and because it was impossible

24 to secure the site where the terrorists were liquidated, during the night

25 of the 15th and 16th of January, 1999, terrorist groups from the village

1 of Petrovo and Malopoljce gained access to the terrorists' bodies. It is

2 therefore possible that the terrorists manipulated the situation and

3 dressed the liquidated terrorists in civilian clothes, removed personal

4 documents and the bodies of persons who were not from the area of Stimlje

5 municipality or the Republic of Serbia, or in other ways manipulated with

6 the bodies."

7 First, you're the investigating policeman: This is mere

8 conjecture or explanation or excuse. There's no witness or other hard

9 evidence to support this proposition, is there?

10 A. That's not right. I would like to explain here. It was stated

11 correctly here, as I said previously, that in the conflicts 45 persons

12 died. I'm stating that with full responsibility. I don't know how, but

13 my information is that they were buried on a hill near the village of

14 Malopoljce, the municipality of Stimlje. I'm saying that on the basis of

15 operative information, that is to say on the basis of statements.

16 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for Mr. Nice, please.

17 MR. NICE:

18 Q. The suggestion that bodies had been redressed, that bodies had

19 been moved, is at best speculation or justification or something like that

20 because there's no evidence for it, is there?

21 A. You see, as far as the removed bodies are concerned, Sadik Mujota,

22 Mehmet Mustafa, Kadri Sulja, I'm saying this on the basis of documents,

23 statements, they were seen in the village of Racak, at positions around

24 the village of Racak, with automatic rifles, and then it depended on the

25 need involved. Sometimes they wore uniforms with KLA insignia, and

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

1 sometimes they were seen in civilian clothes as well. It depended on the

2 assignment they had.

3 JUDGE BONOMY: Why don't you just answer the question that you're

4 being asked.

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I've been explaining

6 this. Through the statements we see that members of the KLA sometimes

7 moved about in uniforms with KLA insignia and sometimes in civilian

8 clothes. It is a fact that they were armed with automatic weapons.

9 JUDGE BONOMY: The question on this occasion is what evidence is

10 there that on this particular evening, the night of the 15th and 16th of

11 January, 1999, KLA terrorists interfered with the clothing of dead bodies

12 who remained within the mosque?

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Probably there are reports from

14 policemen from the actual area. I don't have information of this kind,

15 and I could not give answers here. Police officers from the actual area

16 probably compiled this information on the basis of reports. I could not

17 explain it in any other way.

18 MR. NICE:

19 Q. But, Mr. Jasovic, even reading the paragraph, it says nothing

20 about reports. It says only it is therefore possible that terrorists

21 manipulated the situation. If there were reports, it would have referred

22 to them.

23 A. I am saying probably, probably. I don't know. Because policemen

24 on site, when they compile a report, they are duty-bound to send the

25 report to their immediate superior. In this specific case, the head of

1 department in the police.

2 I have not seen these reports, but my assumption is that it is

3 only natural that after completing an assignment one compiles a report and

4 sends that report with regard to that particular event.

5 Q. I'm going to stop you. You have seen no report, no witness

6 statement, no piece of evidence to support the possibility that bodies

7 were manipulated in the way described in this paragraph, have you?

8 A. Mr. Prosecutor, what I am saying is that I didn't see the report

9 and didn't see what you're asking me about now.

10 Q. All right. Let's go through the rest of this document which I

11 want your help with. I'm just going to give you the paragraph summaries

12 so that you can turn to it if you need to.

13 The next paragraph deals with the 16th of January on-site

14 investigation, and it says nothing about recovery of weapons, nothing --

15 nothing about recovery of weapons.

16 The next paragraph deals with the on-site investigation team being

17 attacked.

18 The next paragraph turns to the 17th of January and Sasa

19 Dobricanin's visit.

20 The next paragraph deals with the on-site investigation team and

21 being fired on. The next paragraph points out that -- how the on-site

22 investigation team was impeded, I think.

23 The next one deals with the same general topic and with other

24 problems.

25 The next paragraph turns to the 18th of January and the on-site

1 investigation team made up of Danica Marinkovic and others.

2 It goes to deal with the next paragraph with what the Siptar

3 terrorists, as described, did.

4 We're then on to a paragraph about police force numbers responding

5 to the attack. There's then the finding of 40 bodies, including one

6 female, in the village.

7 There's then the reference to after the on-site investigation

8 Mustafa Mehmeti's house being searched and various items being found

9 there.

10 There's then a visit to the trenches and for the machine-gun nest.

11 There's then a reference to the kitchen where they -- of the depot where

12 they went.

13 Then the 18th of January there's the movement of the bodies from

14 the mosque, and with the last sentence: "It was confirmed that these

15 people were known to the police as members of the terrorist so-called KLA

16 who had launched armed attacks on members of the MUP ..."

17 The next paragraph deals with 1230 on the 18th of January and with

18 the death of somebody outside these events. And then it says: Based on

19 the above analysis of events --" next paragraph -- "and the conduct of the

20 police, we can draw the following conclusions." Thank you,

21 Mr. Prendergast. Next page.

22 "There were a number of terrorists attacks ..."

23 Next paragraph: "The result of these terrorist attacks is one

24 police force member killed and three wounded.

25 Then it says this: "The police --" no reference to the army --

1 "intervened and used weapons for personal safety to repulse the attacks,"

2 and then it says while they were performing their duty the police force

3 members were under heavy fire.

4 Next paragraph: Didn't overstep authority.

5 Last paragraph: Intervened and used firearms in accordance with

6 the law.

7 So if we now go back to the paragraph I asked you to read for us,

8 you'll find in the English at page 3, it's claimed that 36 automatic

9 rifles were found with the bodies in the bunker, and what those of you

10 covering up this crime overlooked, I would suggest, or one of the many

11 things you overlooked, was that because bodies were found all round the

12 village, if they'd been fighting there should have been rifles beside

13 them, and those rifles would have had to be collected. And what -- and

14 this is my suggestion to you: That you along with Danica Marinkovic and

15 all the others, covered up this crime but overlooked the fact that you

16 should have recorded the collection of rifles from these other places. I

17 showed them to you on the map. What do you say to that?

18 A. Mr. Prosecutor, that is not true. And as far as the location, the

19 site, to say that I'm trying to cover up something, that's just not true.

20 I worked honestly and properly, did my job properly.

21 Now, as far as the site is concerned, the location and where the

22 weapons were found, I really cannot explain because I wasn't on that

23 particular site. I do know that a large quantity of weapons was found and

24 that they were brought into the Secretariat of the Interior of Urosevac.

25 Now, as to everything that was on the location and the place, I

1 really can't say where the bodies were or anything.

2 Q. Tell me, Mr. Jasovic, if there was an event with deaths happening

3 at different places, and if one side was asserting that this was a battle

4 but the other was saying it was a massacre and people were killed in

5 unarmed state, would it be appropriate for the local police force to

6 inquire of the soldiers or policemen engaged how they had killed the

7 various people found in distant locations? Would that be an appropriate

8 thing to do?

9 A. Mr. Prosecutor, I am telling you that it wasn't a massacre, that

10 there were armed members of the KLA --

11 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... answer my question.

12 A. -- that is true --

13 Q. Mr. Jasovic, would you please be good enough to answer my

14 question. Please listen to me. I'll repeat the question and I'd like you

15 to answer it. And I'll try and use the same words and then you'll be able

16 to understand it.

17 If there was an event with deaths happening at different places,

18 one side saying it was a massacre and the other side saying people were

19 killed when unarmed, would it be appropriate for the local police to

20 inquire of the soldiers or policemen engaged how they had killed the

21 people found at distant locations?

22 A. Probably -- well, I can't give you an answer to the question,

23 because as to assessments, it is the superior officers that can give you

24 an answer to that. I don't know what happened in that location. And I

25 had my line of work, and I performed my duties within that line of work

1 and where my superiors sent me.

2 JUDGE BONOMY: I find that an astonishing answer. You've been

3 asked a very simple question. If you have got two directly competing

4 accounts of how an event happened, one saying it was a massacre and the

5 other saying that it was a genuine combat in which people were killed as

6 part of the combat, have the police a duty to investigate these competing

7 accounts; and you say you don't know the answer to that. Is that what

8 you're saying to us?

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I really don't know.

10 Probably. Of course, every event is investigated. But it should be

11 the --

12 JUDGE BONOMY: [Previous translation continues]...

13 MR. NICE:

14 Q. It may be, and don't let me put words into your mouth --

15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Robinson.

16 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.

17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] You're asking the question of an

18 inspector who was not in Racak, and the document that you're looking at

19 now is the report of what happened and what the police established.

20 That's precisely it. And let me remind you that this is part of a set of

21 documents which were provided with General Obrad Stevanovic's testimony

22 and that there was a working group --

23 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic, the question was a permissible

24 one. We have the answer.

25 Proceed, Mr. Nice.

1 MR. NICE:

2 Q. Don't let me put words into your mouth, Mr. Jasovic, and think

3 very carefully about this next question, but is it your evidence and your

4 understanding, then, that all the people died, with their weapons, in

5 roughly the same place?

6 A. Mr. Prosecutor, I have -- well, probably -- what I'm saying, from

7 the list of persons killed in Racak, 30 were identified as being members

8 of the KLA, and for them I can say that they carried weapons, firearms.

9 But I can't say once again whether -- well, through the statements you

10 have the names and surnames of the identified persons, members of the KLA.

11 Q. I'm going to hold you to your observation and make you justify it.

12 You can say, you said, that "from the list of persons killed in Racak 30

13 were identified as being members of the KLA, and I can say that they

14 carried weapons, firearms."

15 Right. Justify that observation.

16 A. Yes, yes, that's right. Members of the KLA. Well, as for these

17 30, I can say for the most part that they carried weapons, because I'm

18 answering your questions here on the basis of Official Notes and so on,

19 official pieces of information and reports.

20 Q. Were you seeking to say that they were carrying weapons on the

21 night of the 15th of January or were you saying something else?

22 A. Mr. Prosecutor, on the 15th of January, I was not in that

23 location. People can tell you that who were there.

24 Q. [Previous translation continues] ...

25 A. But I cannot.

1 MR. NICE: The Prosecution Jasovic binder, second binder, tab 10.

2 No need for this to be shown to the witness, it's only in English.

3 Q. But you see, Mr. Jasovic, as you understand, as a result of your

4 material being relied on by the accused, further investigations have

5 happened and further people have become available. And Witness SS376,

6 potential witness 376, was present at various parts of these events.

7 Now, at paragraph 29, he recalls that Danica Marinkovic said it

8 was impossible to start the investigation because bodies were all over the

9 village.

10 Now, he goes on to say that she hadn't received the signal from

11 Bogi Janicevic to start the investigation, but the truth is that it was

12 known to the police - and I must suggest this to you - it was known to the

13 police and all of you dealing with this event that bodies had indeed been

14 killed all over the village, as Danica Marinkovic may be ultimately shown

15 to have said. What do you say to that?

16 A. I say to that that it is not true.

17 Q. So what's your account, then, on where the bodies were found; all

18 in one place? I thought I gave you a chance to deal with that but have

19 another go.

20 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Robinson. Mr. Robinson.

21 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic.

22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Please. Mr. Nice is constantly,

23 when referring to part of the text read out by the witness himself, trying

24 to distort what it says, and he keeps mentioning the critical word, "died

25 in the same place," which is not what it says here. It doesn't say that

1 here. It says quite the opposite, that they met their death in different

2 places.

3 So I'm not giving instructions to the witness. This witness was

4 asked to read --

5 MR. NICE: [Previous translation continues] ... try and rehearse

6 the witness. The witness -- let me just check this.

7 Q. Do you remember reading out a passage of this apparently official

8 but unsigned report?

9 MR. KAY: May I just make -- it is in the plural in that passage

10 that was read out. Mr. Nice has been constantly referring to one place,

11 but it's in the plural, if you read the text.

12 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Robinson.

14 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Kay?

15 MR. KAY: Back in tab 33 --

16 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please, Mr. Kay.

17 MR. KAY: Sorry. Where we were looking at that report. And I did

18 not want to interfere.

19 When you go to page 3 in the English, the one, two, three, fourth

20 paragraph down, it's in the plural.

21 JUDGE KWON: Plural of trenches and bunkers?

22 MR. KAY: Yes.

23 JUDGE BONOMY: I don't think that's ever been in any doubt or

24 dispute. We have the witness's answer to the last question, that he says

25 that that's where bodies were found, in spite of other -- and that's to be

1 compared with other evidence about them being found in places other than

2 trenches and bunkers. That's how I understood the cross-examination. If

3 I've misunderstood, it can be dealt with in re-examination.

4 MR. KAY: That's why I have said nothing, but there is this issue

5 in how the question was being put.

6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Nice, just put the question again for me.

7 MR. NICE: First of all, I'm going to try and find the way the

8 passage was -- find the way the passage was read by the interpreters. I'm

9 afraid I'm having a bit of trouble finding the page number. If anybody

10 gets there before me, perhaps they'd give me the page number.

11 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please. Microphone. I'm afraid we

12 cannot hear the accused. Could he speak into the microphone or --

13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I would like to draw your attention

14 that in front of this paragraph not only are trenches mentioned in the

15 plural but trenches, communicating trenches and bunkers, three types of

16 facilities, fortification, which, as you can see, were placed throughout

17 the village, in the plural, and covering several dozens of metres.

18 JUDGE ROBINSON: I asked Mr. Nice to reformulate the question.

19 MR. NICE: [Microphone not activated] ... when he sees

20 difficulties coming, that's an observation I make after months of

21 listening to it happen. Second, I will return to the question. Third,

22 I'm just going to remind us all exactly what the passage of the evidence

23 given earlier -- it's at page 48 --

24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Robinson.

25 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic, I've asked Mr. Nice to do

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

1 something. Let him do it. When he's finished, if you have a point, you

2 can make it.

3 MR. NICE: The interpretation provided by the interpreters was:

4 "Taking trenches and bunkers that were used by the Siptar terrorists,

5 members of the police in them, in addition to the mentioned corpses found

6 and took away 36 automatic rifles," et cetera.

7 We then came to the end of that passage, so the plural of trenches

8 and bunkers had of course been used in the translation provided for us as

9 in the earlier English version provided, and I asked this question: "The

10 original Serbian text makes it absolutely clear that the weapons,

11 including the 36 automatic rifles, were said to have been found in the

12 trench where the bodies were found. Clear?" He said: "It's clear what

13 it says in this paragraph," to that question. And it goes on from there,

14 and I don't think we returned to that issue until a little bit later.

15 Now, the question that I'm asking the witness now, I'm not sure I

16 can find it again --

17 JUDGE BONOMY: 53 until 54.

18 MR. NICE: Thank you very much.

19 Q. "It's claimed that the 36 rifles were found with the bodies in the

20 bunker. If you want bunkers in the plural, we'll say that. It's claimed

21 that the 36 automatic rifles were found with the bodies in the bunkers and

22 that those of you who were covering up this crime overlooked, I would

23 suggest, that because bodies were found all round the village if they had

24 been fighting there would have been rifles beside them."

25 That's what I asked you. Did you understand my question?

1 A. What I can say is this: In this passage, it says taking bunkers

2 and trenches and --

3 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please speak slowly.

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] And took away 36 automatic rifles.

5 JUDGE ROBINSON: You're being asked to speak more slowly by the

6 interpreters.

7 JUDGE KWON: And if he could repeat his answer.

8 JUDGE ROBINSON: Repeat the answer.

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In the paragraph, it says the

10 following, as far as I can see: "Taking the trenches and bunkers which

11 were used by the Siptar terrorists, members of the police, in addition to

12 the corpses, found 36 rifles, automatic rifles of Chinese production, and

13 other weapons." And also it says, "In addition to the corpses, a large

14 number of casings of different calibre were found which the terrorists

15 used to shoot at the police with."

16 Now, I didn't understand the question by the Prosecutor. Could he

17 repeat his question, please.

18 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Nice, for the last time, to repeat the

19 question.

20 MR. NICE:

21 Q. Your understand is that the weapons were found where the bodies

22 were said to have been found, at trenches and bunkers, singular or plural,

23 doesn't matter, but that's where the weapons and bodies were found;

24 correct?

25 A. The corpses weren't found in one place in the conflict between the

1 police and the --

2 Q. Don't -- Mr. Jasovic --

3 A. -- the Albanian terrorists.

4 Q. -- don't make the mistake of tailoring your evidence to

5 interventions by the accused. Give us your answer. What does this

6 document provide us and what did you understand the position to be, that

7 -- listen to me: That the weapons and bodies were found in the same

8 place, the trenches and bunkers where the bodies were found; correct?

9 A. I cannot see that it says in the same place here. Taking of

10 trenches and bunkers where, in addition to the corpses found, there were

11 weapons which were found and confiscated, 36 rifles, et cetera.

12 Q. That text, that --

13 A. I cannot see here that they were found in the same place.

14 Q. -- the question I asked you earlier and that's the question you

15 answered earlier and that's what this Serbian text reveals and that's why

16 I asked you to read it out carefully. You're simply trying to change an

17 account to meet a difficulty.

18 Let me explain this to you, Mr. Jasovic: The other places we

19 looked at on that map - in fact all of the places; the gully itself and

20 all the other places where three men were found together, single people

21 were found to have died - not one of them had a trench there or a bunker.

22 Can you explain from the documents you've seen, if explanation is

23 possible, an account of how people died at places other than with trenches

24 and bunkers? Can you?

25 A. Mr. Prosecutor, let me repeat again: I wasn't on that location.

1 You're giving me the chronology of events in the village of Racak. I

2 wasn't there, so I cannot explain how, where, what.

3 Probably the people who took part in the conflict with the

4 Albanian KLA terrorists, that is to say the policemen that were in this

5 clash, could explain that to you. All I can do is to stand by my

6 documents related to my line of work. I don't know whether you understand

7 that. I was very brief here. It doesn't say who signed this chronology

8 of events for the Racak affair. This is the first time that I see this

9 piece of paper.

10 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Jasovic, when this matter was first raised, the

11 question was: "The truth is that it was known to the police, and I must

12 suggest this to you, it was known to the police and all of you dealing

13 with this event that bodies had indeed been killed all over the village,

14 as Danica Marinkovic may ultimately be shown to have said. What do you

15 say to that?" And your answer was: "I say to that that it is not true."

16 Now you say you don't know.

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I didn't say that it wasn't true

18 in a number of places. I said that it wasn't true what the Prosecutor

19 said, that the corpses were found in one place. I wasn't there on the

20 spot. Mrs. Danica Marinkovic was. She was the head of the investigating

21 team and the team of people who were there.

22 I wasn't on the site myself, so I can't say specifically. I don't

23 know if I'm making myself clear enough.

24 MR. NICE:

25 Q. I want to take a -- I will move to another point, to repeat it,

1 and in case it's a bad point, to give you a chance to deal with it. The

2 point is this: As you remember, I explained to you the evidence is that

3 there were two houses in which people were hiding from the army and the

4 police. They were both directed to the gully, but one group was fortunate

5 enough to escape, and they survived. The other group was massacred in the

6 gully, on the evidence.

7 The group that survived, unless we've missed the names from your

8 latest pile of documents, which we haven't been able fully to analyse, but

9 the other group are not shown to have been members of the KLA at all.

10 I'll just read out the names on the evidence that we've got so that you

11 can go away and do your homework, and if you can find a document, that's

12 fine. Not fine, it's of interest, but I don't want to take a bad point.

13 Rama Beqa, Hamdi Beqa, Ekrem Hajrizi, Bashkim Hajrizi, Gjylferi

14 Jakupi, Selve Jakupi, Lirije Jakupi, Shpejtim Jakupi, Shqipri Jakupi,

15 Shefqet Jakupi, Sabahate Musliu, Hasime Musliu, Ilaz Imeri, Lulzim whose

16 last name is unknown, Hyzer Emini, Hanumsha Emini, Imer Emini, Mervet

17 Emini, Blerim Emini, Hysni Emini, Azemine Emini, Enver Emini, Haki Emini,

18 Hazir Emini, Ilir Emini, and Antigona Emini, Shemsi Emini, Ragip Emini,

19 Ismet Emini, Xheme Beqa.

20 Now, I think that's the list of people who were lucky enough to

21 escape. You may well have material going to suggest that they are members

22 of the KLA and it hasn't yet been produced to us, but if there is no such

23 material, can you explain the oddity that the one house that's massacred

24 is shown to be KLA and the one house that escapes is not?

25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Robinson.

1 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic.

2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I be given some information.

3 Where is Mr. Nice reading those names from, these individuals who

4 allegedly had escaped from a house? Where does he find them, in what

5 document?

6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Nice?

7 MR. NICE: In an analysis of the evidence in the case, and I'm not

8 in a position to turn to a single document at the moment. If it's

9 material, I'll turn up the detail. My colleagues have provided the

10 material from the evidence.

11 JUDGE ROBINSON: It's already in evidence.

12 MR. NICE: I understand so, yes.

13 JUDGE ROBINSON: You're not in a position to identify any specific

14 place where it may be found.

15 MR. NICE: Not at the moment, but we'll do it -- we'll do it

16 later.

17 Q. May I have an answer to the question, Mr. Jasovic? If it's the

18 case. I mean, you --

19 A. I'm looking at the names and surnames of these individuals. I

20 can't remember whether any of these were KLA members. I can't remember

21 that. To the best of my recollection -- well, I don't know. I don't

22 think -- well, with the information that I have, at least. You can ask,

23 Mr. Prosecutor, but, well, I haven't paid attention to the names but I'm

24 looking at them now.

25 Q. One of them is one of your informers. 1.51 is Shemsi Emini, I

1 think. So you should know that name.

2 A. Which one? What did you say?

3 Q. Shemsi Emini.

4 A. Well, if that's what it says, then most probably that is the case,

5 but as I say, I can't quite remember now.

6 Q. Or one of your alleged informants.

7 Right. Let's look at a few more things about this history before

8 I turn to the individual statements, as I am afraid I must. But --

9 MR. NICE: And the Chamber will find my questions derived from the

10 materials in volume 2 at this stage of the Prosecution's Jasovic binder.

11 And I can immediately return to a point that the witness dealt with when

12 he listed members of the KLA who were found at Racak.

13 Are you aware, Mr. Jasovic, that evidence has been given that

14 indeed members of the KLA were in Racak, that indeed members of the KLA

15 were killed and that their bodies were taken away the same night by the

16 KLA. Are you aware of that evidence?

17 A. I'm not aware of that. However, now as I was reading the

18 documents, in Leskovac I learned that in addition to those 40 another five

19 members of the KLA died in the same clash. These were members of the KLA

20 whose names I listed earlier. Based on the statements I took, my notes

21 and information, I was able to derive these five names.

22 Q. I'm putting to you now things provided to us by somebody called

23 Agim Kamberi, who is the village leader in Racak and was a resident at the

24 time. Is there anything you want to say adverse about Agim Kamberi before

25 I explain what I can put to you coming from him?

1 A. As for that particular person, I have no comment, either a

2 positive or negative one, simply because I don't remember the person.

3 Q. He makes the point that at the time, several time in Racak were

4 actively engaged in the Mother Teresa Association and that in that

5 capacity they would have provided food to the KLA.

6 MR. NICE: The Court will see this under -- on the document if

7 you've opened it at tab 6 and -- sorry. Before I come to that, Your

8 Honour will see that at number 8 this is an example of a KLA person who

9 died being identified by a witness, but the point about Mother Teresa

10 picks up at number 11 as an example where it's said that Nijazi Zymeri was

11 one person who was an active supporter of the Mother Teresa Association,

12 as was, I think, one or two others are dealt with in terms.

13 Q. Would membership of the Mother Teresa Association excite such

14 anger on the part of the police that you would categorise them as KLA

15 members?

16 A. I don't know whether there was Mother Teresa Association in Racak.

17 I know that there was civilian defence within the KLA structure which

18 collected donations to buy food and other necessities. I'm not aware that

19 there was such an association in this village.

20 As far as I can remember, I think that there were some foreign

21 humanitarian organisations delivering food to Racak. I believe that that

22 was in the fall of 1998, but I'm not sure.

23 In several statements it is stated that Albanian terrorists

24 basically confiscated from the villagers the food items, and that was one

25 of the reasons why the Racak residents moved from that village to other

1 more peaceful locations.

2 Q. I'm not sure that you actually answered my question, though.

3 Would membership of the Mother Teresa Association lead to you categorising

4 people as members of the KLA?

5 A. I don't know. I don't know anything about the membership. I

6 simply don't remember and I couldn't answer that question.

7 You know, I took a lot of statements. If I were to go through all

8 of those documents in their entirety, but otherwise I couldn't answer your

9 question.

10 JUDGE KWON: Can I ask -- can I take up that question further.

11 Assisting the KLA, is it criminal, according to the law of Serbia at that

12 time? Not being a member, just assisting the KLA, such as food, et

13 cetera? Is it prohibited by the laws?

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There is a crime of assisting

15 terrorists by providing fuel or other necessities. Yes, there was such a

16 criminal offence.

17 This pertains to the members of the KLA, but I couldn't explain

18 whether it would be a crime if -- if the KLA members received humanitarian

19 aid through some legal humanitarian organisations. I really wouldn't know

20 about that. But based on the documents, I can tell you the following:

21 The necessities were delivered to them through regular channels, to the

22 KLA, because they built roads and there were roads connecting their

23 village with surrounding villages.

24 JUDGE KWON: Were the family members of KLA even prohibited from

25 offering such assistance as food? Would they be -- would they be

1 prosecuted for offering such assistance?

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They wouldn't. Family members could

3 not be members of the KLA unless they actually joined the KLA.

4 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.

5 MR. NICE: Your Honours, I shall certainly be now referring myself

6 to the schedule. I have the updated version if you'd like it for

7 distribution, and although I don't want to flood you with paper, if it

8 would be helpful to have it now rather than later with the two additional

9 -- three additional rows on it, we can do that. And I also make one

10 available to the witness --

11 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, let it be distributed.

12 MR. NICE: -- even though it's in English. He can understand the

13 logic of it. I'll explain it to him briefly.

14 Q. While it's being distributed, look at this document. Take it out

15 of the folder. Take it out of the folder, please, Mr. Jasovic.

16 You'll see that it lists along the top -- if you look at the top,

17 you'll find the names of all those people your materials suggest may be

18 members of the KLA. Do you see the names starting at Bajrami Ragip and

19 Beqiri Halim and so on. And then going down the left-hand side it

20 identifies your alleged sources of information, starting with Bajram

21 Hiseni who it is said gave a statement or information on the 9th of July

22 of 1998. It then runs down this page and down subsequent pages

23 chronologically. You'll see that the grid has crosses marked on it for

24 who has been identified by whom, so that if you look at the third, fourth

25 row, you'll see that somebody called Sali Emini is said on the 11th of

1 August of 1998 to have identified Bujar Hajrizi and Myfail Hajrizi as

2 members of the KLA. This is a document available for use if it is of use.

3 Now, if we turn to the man Lutfi Bilalli, is it right that the --

4 this is number 14 on the other document that the Court may be looking at,

5 is it right that he was a co-village leader who assisted the KLA by giving

6 them food?

7 A. As for Lutfi Bilalli, I can tell you this: Once the substaff of

8 the KLA was established, so was the civilian defence of the KLA. Civilian

9 defence was not only in charge of collecting money in order to procure

10 food, necessities, fuel, and so on. The person in charge of civilian

11 defence was also in charge of placing checkpoints. He, as the head of

12 civilian defence, was the one who allocated, who would man those

13 checkpoints during daytime or night-time. We had such checkpoints -- or

14 they had such checkpoints in Racak itself and around the village.

15 Q. My suggestion to you on the basis of the material available to us

16 is that he may indeed have been a person in charge of some matters of

17 civilian defence but that that's as far as the evidence allows it to go,

18 apart from your statements, and he was a provider of food to the KLA.

19 A. It wasn't just the food, Mr. Prosecutor. In addition to food,

20 this also involved the following: I forgot to mention that the head of

21 civilian defence also took care of fortifications. He was in charge of

22 all the work regarding digging trenches, communication trenches, bunkers,

23 and so on. He was the one who assigned persons to man certain checkpoints

24 in order to monitor the movements of policemen and so on.

25 Q. But there would be no -- even assuming you're right on that, there

1 would be absolutely no excuse for liquidating, to use Radosavljevic's

2 word, to liquidate somebody who manned a checkpoint unless he fired first,

3 would there?

4 A. Mr. Prosecutor, the police did not have a task to kill, to

5 liquidate. No. They went out to locate and arrest the persons who were

6 suspected of having committed terrorist acts.

7 Q. I thought you knew nothing of the operation. So you don't know

8 whether they went there to liquidate or to arrest, do you?

9 A. Sir, while I was still in uniform, I know that according to the

10 law it is not the task of police to go out and kill or liquidate.

11 JUDGE BONOMY: This is what I don't understand about your evidence

12 at the moment: When you're given a chance to answer a question, a general

13 question not specific to this occasion, you avoid it for some reason.

14 Now, the general question that was asked here was simply if

15 someone was in charge of a checkpoint, that alone would not justify

16 killing him unless he fired first. Now, why don't you just answer that

17 question, in the round, in general, without reference to anything specific

18 here? Can you answer it?

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, unless the person in

20 question is resisting, is putting up resistance, there is no reason to

21 liquidate that person, unless they're putting up armed resistance.

22 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

23 MR. NICE:

24 Q. Let's move on to somebody else --

25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Robinson.

1 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic, yes.

2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Here in these charts, Mr. Jasovic's

3 name is mentioned in several cases. I'm not sure that he can fully

4 understand that because all of this is in English, and I don't think that

5 it is acceptable to provide documents in English to the witness.

6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Well, the specific parts that were mentioned, I

7 think, would have been translated.

8 MR. NICE:

9 Q. Let's, if we may, turn to the next one I'd like you to look at,

10 please. If you look at the top row, Mr. Jasovic, you'll find Hakip Imeri.

11 See him, he is 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8 along from the top. Hakip Imeri.

12 Have you got him?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. [Previous translation continues]... the first page, he's not

15 referred to there, so if Mr. Prendergast takes us to the second page, he's

16 not referred to there; if he takes us to the third page, and if you go to

17 the third page, please, you'll see a big black line. The big black line

18 means the event of Racak.

19 And on this page Hakip Imeri comes to be mentioned as somebody who

20 died in Racak, and there he is mentioned on the 16th of January as a

21 member of the KLA. We then turn over to the next page. He gets a second

22 mention, Mr. Hakip Imeri.

23 JUDGE ROBINSON: Has he found it?

24 MR. NICE: I don't know. Have you found it there?

25 JUDGE ROBINSON: Proceed slowly in view of the fact that it's not

1 in his language.

2 MR. NICE: Certainly.

3 Q. Have you seen that -- there it is -- you were there -- right the

4 first time. Did you find the cross that shows that Hakip Imeri was

5 identified apparently by Mustafa Afrim -- immediately under the black

6 line, Mr. Prendergast, where you're -- that's right. To the left. It's

7 about one, two, three. It's the right hand of those five crosses. So he

8 was identified there.

9 And if we go to the next sheet, we can see the top of the next

10 sheet where we can see the names, he's identified in the statement of

11 Fadil Zymberi on the 20th of January 1999. So he was identified twice.

12 What do you know, Mr. Jasovic, about Hakip Imeri? What do you

13 know about him? Your statements say he's a member of the KLA.

14 A. I don't know the person in question.

15 Q. You see, this man was mentally ill. He wasn't capable even of

16 looking after himself. So perhaps you'd like to tell the Court, please,

17 what you say Hakip Imeri was capable of doing for the KLA.

18 A. I don't know whether he was mentally ill.

19 Q. Well, let's take a -- I see. You don't know anything about him at

20 all, do you?

21 JUDGE KWON: Why don't we offer him the --

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know the man.

23 JUDGE KWON: If you would like to hear the answer, witness's

24 answer right now, it's fair to offer him the statement.

25 MR. NICE: I'm only too happy, but of course they're in English

1 and I'll read the whole statement out to him. He can have it --

2 JUDGE KWON: No, his statements.

3 MR. NICE: Oh, certainly his statements, Your Honour, yes. I'm

4 only too happy to do that.

5 JUDGE KWON: If he could be reminded.

6 MR. NICE: It will take some time but I realise this witness has

7 to take some time. I'm quite happy to do that. And if you'd like to see

8 first of all, then, 1.43, which you can conveniently find in the

9 Prosecution's bundle 1 of 2, Mr. Prendergast, because we can then see what

10 the -- 1.43.

11 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Nice, it's time for the break.

12 MR. NICE: Yes, I understand that.

13 JUDGE ROBINSON: We'll --

14 JUDGE KWON: And why don't we give him the relevant tabs and read

15 them through the break.

16 MR. NICE: He may prefer to rest at the break but it's up to him.

17 JUDGE KWON: Why don't we offer him -- could you point that tab

18 number.

19 MR. NICE: Yes, this one is 1.4 -- it's in -- in the Prosecution's

20 bundle of documents for cross-examination, volume 1, tab 2, at 1.43; and

21 the second one is to be found in the same volume at 2.23.

22 JUDGE KWON: Those will be offered to the witness.

23 JUDGE ROBINSON: The court deputy will see to that. We'll break

24 for 20 minutes.

25 --- Recess taken at 12.20 p.m.

1 --- On resuming at 12.45 p.m.

2 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Nice.

3 MR. NICE: The answer to His Honour Judge Kwon's question about

4 the list of people found in the other house is it was in the statement of

5 Drita Emini, a witness who was taken 92 bis, Exhibit 174 at pages 11 and

6 12 of the document.

7 The witness has now had an opportunity of looking at 1.43 and had

8 already, of course, been taken in part through 2. -- the other relevant

9 document, 2.23, in which this particular man Hakip Imeri is mentioned.

10 Q. I repeat my question: What, if anything, do you know about this

11 man, Mr. Jasovic?

12 A. I don't know anything about Hakip Imeri. I don't know the person.

13 Q. You see, his name was mentioned first by somebody, 1.43, to whom

14 we'll return, and then secondly by the person who gave a very long list of

15 names, you say, and who we considered earlier today. But let's come back

16 to 1.43.

17 MR. NICE: If the Court's having got the Prosecution's binder or

18 the original binder open at 1.43, there are a couple of things that I

19 should deal with.

20 First, there is a very clear and potentially significant

21 translation error in the English at the second sheet, which is marked page

22 3. And if the witness would like to go in the Serbian to the last page

23 and to the last substantive paragraph, and if indeed it can be laid -- if

24 the Serbian can be laid on the overhead projector, then the interpreters

25 can confirm the error.

1 The paragraph -- the paragraph in English on what is numbered page

2 3 at the bottom. At the bottom. It's the second page of the document.

3 Reads: "I heard that the following members of the so-called KLA were

4 arrested during the fighting on the 15th of January." Strike out the

5 words "were arrested." The witness will confirm that in the original the

6 words "liseni zivota" mean "lost their lives."

7 The second bit of housekeeping for this tab is that the Court will

8 remember that it proposed the --

9 JUDGE ROBINSON: Did you get an answer for that?

10 MR. NICE: Sorry.

11 Q. I'm right, am I, that it means "lost their lives"?

12 A. Yes, that's right.

13 Q. Thank you.

14 A. "The following members of the so-called KLA lost their lives," and

15 then the names follow.

16 MR. NICE: Next bit of housekeeping: The Court will recall in

17 respect of this next information that was first dealt with at the time of

18 the evidence of Danica Marinkovic that it proposed we took a certain

19 course of action, that action's been taken, here is an analysis document

20 that I'm going to distribute that you may wish to place at the end of 1.43

21 and I'll deal with it in questioning with the witness, and there's also a

22 revised index coming, but the document itself, which will be

23 self-explanatory as soon as you view it, should be lodged at the end of

24 this block.

25 Q. Now, if you're looking, please, at the statement 1.43, the

1 statement of -- you say, the statement of Afrim Mustafa, in this statement

2 he purports to identify Hakip Imeri as a member of the KLA. Is that

3 right?

4 A. Where can I find the name Hakip Imeri; on the first page or

5 elsewhere?

6 Q. You can find in -- it's at the foot of the first page in English,

7 and in the Serbian it's about eight lines up from the bottom of the first

8 page. Xheladini, then it says Hakip Imeri.

9 A. Yes, Haki Xheladini, Hakip Imeri, son of Imer. Yes, I've found

10 it.

11 Q. Now, this statement was said to have been signed by Afrim Mustafa.

12 Do you remember that?

13 A. I can confirm the authenticity of the statement taken by me

14 because it was signed by Mustafa, Afrim Mustafa, Mr. Sparavalo, and

15 myself.

16 Q. As you know, because you've been cross-examined by this -- about

17 this in another case, this young man says that he was taken to the police

18 station --

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. -- he was assaulted one way and another by you and your colleague,

21 screamed at, and electrocuted. Do you remember that? Until one of you

22 said, "Let him go. He's a child."

23 A. That is not true. First of all -- I don't know if my microphone

24 is on. First of all, I don't know, I don't remember, and it doesn't state

25 so whether the said person was brought in or not. It just says here that

1 the interview was conducted with Afrim Mustafa. Based on the statement, I

2 can see that he stated where the KLA staff in Racak was, then he mentions

3 about 80 members of the KLA there, he mentions checkpoints, and one

4 checkpoint in a place called Cesta, and so on.

5 Q. You see, nothing, according to your account of how you dealt with

6 him, to make his signature anything other than a normal signature, is

7 there?

8 A. Mr. Prosecutor, this is his signature. No force or coercion were

9 used, nor was his statement extorted from him.

10 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... looked at the signatures,

11 forensic scientists, and he's found differences so that he can express no

12 opinion one way or another whether it's by the same person, although he

13 allows for the possibility of forgery because of the differences. What do

14 you say to that?

15 JUDGE BONOMY: What on earth could that establish?

16 MR. NICE: It's in the document that I just provided.

17 JUDGE BONOMY: It may do, but how on earth does it challenge the

18 answer the witness has just given?

19 MR. NICE: Your Honour, it doesn't necessarily --

20 JUDGE BONOMY: Everything's possible in this world, Mr. Nice.

21 MR. NICE: Everything's possible and handwriting experts are

22 perhaps regularly found to be unable to be conclusive, but they certainly

23 don't find it's the same signature and they do find differences.

24 JUDGE BONOMY: That's not what I read the opinion as saying. It

25 says no opinion can be reached whether the signatures Q1 and Q2 were

1 written by the author of the reference signature. Surely that doesn't

2 lead you to interpret it or phrase it in the way you've just done.

3 MR. NICE: "No conclusions can be reached," it says, "whether

4 questioned are written by the same. The differences observed -" second

5 paragraph but one - "between the questioned signatures and the reference

6 might indicate forgery when found in contemporary reference signatures and

7 confirmed in the originals ... If, however, signatures (or other

8 handwriting...) from Afrim Mustafa dating from the same period as the

9 questioned police statement contained similar letters..." and then it goes

10 into detail. I respectfully suggest the way I phrased it was to allow the

11 possibility and it was fair.

12 Q. We may turn, please, now to the next person I want do deal with,

13 and would you please look next or consider next with me, Mr. Jasovic,

14 Nazmi Imeri. Now, if we look at the chart, and Mr. Prendergast I know

15 will help us, Nazmi Imeri is about one, two -- ten lines across from the

16 left. It doesn't feature on the first sheet. Doesn't feature on the

17 second sheet.

18 On the third sheet we see he features beside the name of Ramiz

19 Rosaj, 1.38, the statement of the 6th of January, 1999. So before Racak.

20 And then we see his name features on the next sheet, in the alleged

21 statement of Shemsi Emini of the 11th of February of 1999. This is

22 another person -- well, I'll deal with that later. So two references to

23 this man.

24 What can you tell us, please, if you can remember anything, about

25 the involvement of Shemsi -- of Nazmi Imeri. What did he do?

1 JUDGE KWON: I didn't follow.

2 MR. NICE: I'm sorry, my mistake.

3 JUDGE KWON: It appears before the Racak incident?

4 MR. NICE: Yes. On the third sheet he appears in the statement of

5 Ramiz Rosaj.

6 JUDGE KWON: Is it not Muhamet Ismalji?

7 MR. NICE: Have I got the wrong line? I'm so sorry; Your Honour

8 is right and I'm wrong. It's only therefore in Shemsi Emini on page 4.

9 My eyes were following the wrong line.

10 Q. So this man is named in Shemsi Emini, 1.51. If you want to look

11 at 1.51, of course you can. Would you like to see that statement again?

12 A. Yes, I would like to see it, because I can't confirm the

13 authenticity of my statement otherwise.

14 Q. 1.51 coming your way, or you can get it out of the binder. And

15 Nazmi --

16 A. Imeri Nazmi.

17 Q. -- is listed as person you have seen in the uniform -- wearing

18 uniform. In the village of -- not you, the alleged maker of the

19 statement.

20 A. Well, I --

21 Q. It's in the second paragraph, and he says: "In the village of

22 Racak, I saw the following people in uniforms."

23 A. Jakupi Anuhi [phoen].

24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Jasovic -- or, rather,

25 Mr. Robinson, in the Serbian translation it doesn't say in the village of

1 Racak. It's just a question of language, linguistics, because the

2 paragraph, the passage begins in the Serbian, "In uniform...", "u

3 uniformna."

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I found it now, yes. Armed with

5 automatic rifles in the village of Racak. He saw them personally because

6 he lives in the village. And he enumerates a number of names there, among

7 them Nazmi Imeri.

8 MR. NICE:

9 Q. I'll tell you what the alleged maker of this statement says about

10 the statement and see your comments. He says that this was on the day of

11 the funeral, where he was picked up, taken to the police station, and

12 beaten with baseball bats for about ten minutes, questioned, and then

13 beaten again.

14 At one point he says they mentioned Ragip Bajrami and asked if he

15 was a member of the KLA and he said -- the alleged statement maker said

16 no, he's a civilian. He knew that Ragip Bajrami was killed in Racak but

17 didn't dare mention that.

18 Did you beat this young -- this man?

19 A. What police station? I don't which place --

20 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... did you beat this man born in

21 1967?

22 A. That's not true. It's not correct. But I wanted to answer your

23 question. If he went to the funeral in Racak, he could not have been in

24 Urosevac, arrested and detained in Urosevac.

25 Q. The circumstances of his detention, since you raise it: On the

1 11th of February he wanted to go to the funeral. He was driving through

2 Stimlje. He was stopped with another young man, or another man, by the

3 police. They said they were going to Racak. They were detained. They

4 were taken to the police station at Stimlje, to a garage, handcuffed,

5 forced to stand against the wall, the policeman saying, "Where is your

6 gun," they saying they didn't. The policeman saying they were terrorists

7 and members of the KLA, they denying that. Replied he had nothing to do

8 with the events in Racak and hadn't lived there since August of 1998.

9 Eventually he was taken, he says, to the station in Urosevac, interrogated

10 in a room by several policemen to whom he said he was in Racak. So one of

11 them said this: "How is it possible that you're from Racak when all the

12 people were killed there?"

13 If you want the circumstances, those are the circumstances. What

14 do you say to that?

15 A. I say this: I don't know whether it mentions here that the person

16 was beaten in my office or what or something else. He -- in my office,

17 physical force was certainly not used, or any other means of coercion

18 vis-a-vis this individual.

19 Q. Well, the reason it's linked to you is because you've produced the

20 statement, the witness, the potential witness has been seen, and that's

21 the account he gives. But now that you've refreshed your memory from the

22 statement you took, perhaps you'd like to help me again. What do you say

23 was the role of Nazmi Imeri?

24 A. Nazmi Imeri, his role, well, he was a member of the KLA, and Emini

25 Shemsi says uniforms with KLA insignia, armed with automatic rifles in

1 Racak. I saw them next -- and in addition to Nazmi Imeri, he names

2 another -- some more individuals. And we know that members of the KLA

3 with automatic rifles, we know what their role is. All the people who

4 were members of the KLA from the fortifications opened fire in the

5 direction of the police --

6 Q. Oh, did they? You know about that, do you?

7 A. Well, on the basis of statements. Yes, they were members of the

8 KLA, according to this statement. In the village of Racak --

9 Q. [Previous translation continues] ...

10 A. -- they were all members of the KLA from Racak. They weren't

11 static. They moved around. Racak, Rance, in that general direction.

12 Q. Well --

13 JUDGE BONOMY: Can I ask you, in which statements was it said that

14 all the people who were members of the KLA from the fortifications opened

15 fire in the direction of the police?

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I have over 700

17 statements, and in the statements, looking through the material, I

18 happened to notice that, in addition to other things, it says that KLA

19 members were detained and that they had opened fire, and I'm taking an

20 example, from Racak towards the main road of Stimlje- Moljevo [phoen], for

21 example, or from another direction, from the direction of Rance and

22 Petrastica. They're villages on the left-hand side and right-hand side of

23 the road.

24 JUDGE BONOMY: This is all about Racak, isn't it? And you're

25 saying that there are statements to the effect that all the people who

1 were members of the KLA, from the fortifications opened fire in the

2 direction of the police.

3 Now, which -- which --

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, members. Well, I can't

5 remember now in which statements and the names and surnames of the people

6 who, on the basis of the interview, gave statements.

7 JUDGE BONOMY: It's the sort of --

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I have --

9 JUDGE BONOMY: It's the sort of thing you would expect to see in a

10 statement from a police officer who was under attack, but I wonder if it's

11 the sort of thing you would expect to see in statements from the people

12 you were taking statements from.

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can tell you the truth quite

14 sincerely, that in over 7 -- in over 70 -- 700 statements, there are

15 statements to that effect which say that.

16 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, these are crucial, crucial to this case, and

17 you're telling us you know of their existence and they haven't been

18 produced for the Defence in the case?

19 Give me an example of a person who has made such a crucial

20 statement that everybody in the fortifications at Racak who was a KLA

21 member was firing at the police.

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm not saying specifically for the

23 event in Racak, because KLA members from the village of Racak opened fire.

24 They weren't static, as I said. They gave assistance to members of the

25 KLA in Rance, for example, and in other villages.

1 MR. NICE:

2 Q. Did you understand His Honour's questions to you? Did you?

3 A. I understood the question.

4 Q. [Previous translation continues] ...

5 A. The very fact that they were members of the KLA, or a person was a

6 member of the KLA, meant that that individual or those individuals had the

7 goal and task of waging or, rather, they organised themselves for a

8 guerrilla warfare, for waging guerrilla warfare.

9 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Jasovic, you said in answer to the question, you

10 said, I cite it now: "All the people who were members from the KLA, from

11 the fortifications opened fire in the direction of the police." Is it the

12 description of what happened on 15th of January?

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I say that a member of the KLA has

14 the role of opening fire towards the police, opening fire at the police

15 and at Serb citizens and at Albanians who didn't wish to join them.

16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Kwon.

17 JUDGE ROBINSON: Well, I'm confused. Are you saying that a

18 member --

19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. --

20 JUDGE ROBINSON: -- had the role to do this or that it was actually

21 done?

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. President, members of the KLA

23 formed their staff, and it was formed with the task of -- with the task of

24 launching armed action, armed operations to gain political goals for an

25 independent Kosovo.

1 JUDGE ROBINSON: It's still not clear to me what you're saying.

2 Are you saying that is how the KLA operate? That's how you expect them to

3 operate? I thought earlier you said that you had statements to the effect

4 that all the members of the KLA opened fire.

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, the members of the KLA opened

6 fire and launched terrorist attacks on the main road running from

7 Stimlje. You come to the village of Racak first, but I'm taking a look at

8 our area, including the Urosevac area up to Crnoljevo and the right and

9 left-hand side of the road.

10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Robinson.

11 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic.

12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I think there is a very small nuance

13 of difference here leading to confusion. Mr. Kwon read out and said

14 members of the KLA opened fire, I think he said, which means that

15 something happened in the past tense. Whereas the witness, in describing

16 what members of the KLA did, said they would open fire on, as a general

17 rule of conduct. They would open fire and they would attack and they

18 would shoot at civilians, which means they did in fact fire at civilians.

19 But he didn't link this to one event but to their conduct in general. He

20 was speaking about their conduct in general and said that the KLA opened

21 fire or would open, and so on, and that people were killed as a result of

22 that, policemen, civilians and others.

23 JUDGE ROBINSON: I understand what you're saying, but is that

24 consistent with his saying that he has statements to that effect?

25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I don't know that. I can't say.

1 You'll have to ask him that.

2 [Trial Chamber confers]

3 JUDGE ROBINSON: Well, can we then go back to the transcript to

4 see exactly what the witness said?

5 MR. NICE: The transcript, which of course is all in English --

6 JUDGE BONOMY: Can we get that in Serb?

7 MR. NICE: That will take some time, because you have to get the

8 tape for the answer. It may be possible to do it overnight.

9 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, can it be done while we wait?

10 MR. NICE: I think not. I'm not aware of anyway --

11 JUDGE BONOMY: This is pretty crucial.

12 JUDGE KWON: If the interpreters can assist us.

13 THE INTERPRETER: In what way, Your Honour? We don't remember

14 what we said.

15 JUDGE ROBINSON: We'll have to get the Serb transcript, and if

16 it's not available now, then how soon would that be available?

17 MR. NICE: Your Honour, it's not the transcript, of course, it

18 will be tape itself, and that can, I think, be done overnight without any

19 trouble. The question, as I follow it, is the question of His Honour

20 Judge Bonomy at 84, page 84, line 1: "Are you saying there are statements

21 to the effect that the people who were members of the KLA, from the

22 fortifications opened fire in the direction of the police?" To which the

23 witness is recorded: "Yes, members --" "Well, I can't remember now in

24 which statements, and the names and surnames of the people who, on the

25 basis of the interview, gave statements." It's that passage, I think.

1 JUDGE KWON: No, his original answer appears at page 83, from line

2 6.

3 MR. NICE: Yes, of course.

4 JUDGE BONOMY: That can't be checked by listening to a tape at

5 this minute?

6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Okay. I understand it can't be done now, but as

7 soon as we have the tape, Mr. Boas, that would be tomorrow?

8 All right. We'll check to see, because Mr. Milosevic has

9 indicated that there is a nuance which is causing the confusion and the

10 word "would" should be there.

11 Proceed, Mr. Nice, and we'll try to resolve this later.

12 MR. NICE:

13 Q. Well, just one last question on this. And again, don't be tempted

14 to give an answer in light of any observations by the accused. Just tell

15 us, when you answered my question, "All the people who were members of the

16 KLA, from the fortifications opened fire in the direction of the police,"

17 and said that that was on the basis of statements, were you describing the

18 position so far as Racak was concerned?

19 A. I was saying in general terms that in the statements, the people

20 that I conducted interviews with, that they would give the names of KLA

21 members, saying that they were armed with automatic weapons. And then

22 after that, they said that the stated individuals from the KLA opened fire

23 - I'm taking an example - from the direction of Racak, for instance,

24 towards the main road, at the police, and from the Petrastica and

25 Crnoljevo direction, that they opened fire.

1 Q. So regardless of the resolution of the particular language problem

2 over the passage that you've spoken of, is your present position that

3 there are no statements that actually cover what happened, no statements

4 dealing specifically with what people in Racak did?

5 A. I didn't understand the question. Could you explain what you

6 mean.

7 Q. There are -- there are no statements by witnesses suggesting or

8 showing that people in Racak fired on the police and the army.

9 A. There are statements to the effect that the KLA members from the

10 village of Racak fired towards the main road at the police, shot at the

11 police at the main road. And in this specific case with respect to the

12 event in Racak --

13 Q. Which statement --

14 A. Well, I don't know.

15 Q. That won't do, you see.

16 JUDGE BONOMY: We're talking about -- let's make it clear. We're

17 talking about the 15th of January only, and we're talking about the

18 incident only, and we're looking for statements in which it is said

19 members of the KLA actually fired at the police.

20 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Robinson.

21 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic, yes.

22 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I can see now once again, just to

24 hold the transcript there. Can we hold the transcript on the screen, just

25 three lines? "[In English] KLA opened the fire." [Interpretation] That's

1 what it says. He didn't say they opened fire. He said they opened fire

2 in a continuous present. "[In English] Opened the fire."

3 [Interpretation] "Were opening fire," not "opened fire." "Were opening

4 fire," not "opened fire." And he said a moment ago "were opening fire";

5 the present continuous tense was used.

6 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, that just makes it worse because the question

7 is very --

8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Past continuous.

9 JUDGE BONOMY: The question is very clear. The question is: Are

10 there statements in which witnesses said to you, or even a witness said to

11 you, that on the 15th of January, from fortifications in Racak, members of

12 the KLA opened fire on the police?

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I can't remember, and I

14 can't say in advance. I have a large number of statements. I can't tell

15 you in advance, give you a yes or no whether there were or were not. I

16 can't remember, because there's been a great deal of time that has passed

17 since then, six years. So until I look through the entire material, I

18 couldn't really give you an answer.

19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I be of assistance, Mr. Bonomy?

20 MR. NICE: I would propose not.

21 JUDGE ROBINSON: No, the --

22 JUDGE BONOMY: If you can point -- if you can give me the name of

23 the witness and the tab number of the statement, yes. If not, no.

24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, I'll give you the name of the

25 witness who said that members of the KLA, on the 15th of January, in Racak

1 opened fire at the police. The witness testified here, and the KLA

2 commander was Buja Shukri who under oath here testified and said that they

3 opened fire.

4 JUDGE BONOMY: That's not what we're dealing with. That's a

5 deliberate misinterpretation of what's going on here. What's going on

6 here is a search for statements taken by this witness, Mr. Jasovic. Now,

7 did he take a statement from Shukri Buja? Did he?

8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] No, but --

9 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you very much.

10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Is there a single witness who said

11 that, that's what you asked, and I'm telling you that, yes, there is one.

12 MR. NICE: Can we turn -- with Your Honours' leave, I think --

13 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.

14 MR. NICE:

15 Q. Just dealing with this particular witness who we're looking at,

16 1.51, he explains that he had to sign the statement and was then

17 released. Was forced to sign the statement. No doubt you'll challenge

18 that. He doesn't deal specifically with whether this particular man who

19 is listed in his statement is or is not a member of the KLA. Do you

20 understand? In his statement to the Office of the Prosecutor, he doesn't

21 know, probably doesn't say, doesn't express opinion one way or the other,

22 about whether Mr. Nazmi Imeri is a member of the KLA. But you've had him,

23 in a statement, saying that he's in uniform.

24 Mathematics, I don't know whether you're good at it or not, but 99

25 take away 22 is 77, isn't it?

1 A. That's right. 99 minus 22 is 77.

2 Q. Yes. Would you like to tell, please, what a 77-year-old, born in

3 1922, was doing in a KLA uniform? For that's the age of this man who died

4 at Racak. Do you follow me?

5 A. I don't know what individual you're referring to.

6 Q. The man we've been talking about who you've said, in defence of

7 this accused, was a member of the KLA at the time he died at Racak, Nazmi

8 Imeri. He was 77. Tell us, please, what he was doing.

9 A. I don't know what his age was, and Emini Shemsi voluntarily gave a

10 statement, as did Mehmet Mustafa. At the time he was 60 years old, and it

11 was in his house that the staff was to be -- was located, and he was seen

12 with a rifle at this Cesta place.

13 Now, this man Shemsi Emini does not describe what he did. He just

14 describes him as being a KLA member. I don't know this Nazmi person. I

15 don't know him.

16 Q. All right. Let's look at one other before I turn to another

17 topic. Would you take your chart, please, and look to the second name,

18 Halim Beqiri. He lost his life at Racak on the night of the 15th of

19 January, 1999.

20 We'll just trace what we know about him from your materials.

21 Nothing on the first sheet, nothing on the second sheet, indeed nothing

22 before Racak on the third sheet. On the fourth sheet we see he's named in

23 one statement, Nazmi Imeri's statement. Do you see that? Perhaps you'd

24 like to look at that.

25 We'll look at his statement, which is the statement of -- it's 1.5

1 but it's also 1.56, but in our bundle I think it will be 1.5. 1.50,

2 rather, 1.50. So if you'd like to have a look at the statement that you

3 took from this particular alleged potential witness Namzija Zimeri, and he

4 speaks of Halim Beqiri, apparently.

5 A. Nazmi.

6 Q. Just look at the statement and satisfy yourself.

7 JUDGE KWON: In the middle of page 3.

8 MR. NICE: Indeed. I'm grateful to Your Honour.

9 Q. And in a great list of people, you identify this person, Halim

10 Beqiri. Do you see the name there?

11 A. Yes, I found him.

12 Q. Tell us what he did.

13 A. He was a member of the KLA.

14 Q. What did he do?

15 A. It doesn't say that here in the statement, what he did, as far as

16 I can see.

17 Q. Easy to list people, isn't it? Sure he wasn't too old to be an

18 active member of the KLA? Was he another 77-year-old?

19 JUDGE KWON: Did he say that Halim Beqiri was a member of the KLA

20 in this statement?

21 MR. NICE: We certainly take it that that was the reason and

22 that's what he's just told us. He's read his statement. It's what he

23 intended to record.

24 Q. This person was in the KLA, was he? It's your statement, tell us.

25 A. Just a moment, please. Yes, "I personally know that the so-called

1 KLA in the village of Racak included the following persons," and then he

2 goes on from Bilalli Afet further on.

3 Q. So there he is. Member of the KLA. Sure he's not too old for the

4 job?

5 A. I don't know when he was born.

6 Q. He was 13 years old, or thereabouts. What was he doing for the

7 KLA when he lost the balance of his life to Serb police or soldiers? What

8 was he doing?

9 A. I don't know what duties he had, because the person who gave the

10 statement does not refer to his role in the KLA.

11 Q. Well, let's review -- let's just review what the alleged provider

12 of this information says about the circumstances in which this statement

13 listing so many members of the KLA took place, what the circumstances

14 were. It's in English, so you can have it to look at, but the Judges have

15 it at the beginning of 1. --

16 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Nice, you have the age of his brother Halim Beqa?

17 MR. NICE: Not to hand, but I may find it. I'm afraid I don't

18 have that to hand. I'll try and look that up.

19 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.

20 MR. NICE:

21 Q. The witness says that on a morning in February he received a phone

22 call from the police in Stimlje, saying that he should go to the municipal

23 building and speak to the police. He went there with his brother,

24 provided identification, told they couldn't travel further but to go to

25 Ferizaj, to follow the police. They arrived at your police station, went

1 to the third floor, where they found there were just -- they were just two

2 of some 20 people, all brought there under similar circumstances. He saw

3 two people who he can name, Naser and Ali from Malopoljce, and they were

4 held on the third floor until about 4.00 that day when they were taken

5 away for an interview.

6 He was spoken to by you and a further person whose name he can't

7 recall. He was interviewed for about two hours, shown photographs of

8 people who he was told had been killed, and these were indeed of people

9 already dead. He was distressed on seeing a picture of his deceased

10 brother Nijazi.

11 The events of August 1998 in Racak were discussed with him,

12 including the discovery of medicines at his brother's home. The drugs

13 were -- prescription drugs were indeed found there. This was a matter

14 that concerned you. He was asked whether the people shown in the

15 photographs were members of the KLA. He recognised most, if not all of

16 the people, and that none of them were KLA members. He particularly

17 remembers being shown a picture of Lutfi Bilalli, a person upon whom, as

18 we'll see from the records, you focussed a lot of attention.

19 You then said, "You cannot know him. He's the biggest separatist.

20 He's a member of the KLA military police." Was that your view of Lutfi

21 Bilalli?

22 A. That's not true. I understand this person for not wishing to

23 confirm the authenticity of his statement. I understand him. Again, I

24 can say in his case that his own life would be in jeopardy, the lives of

25 his family would be in jeopardy, he'd be isolated.

1 Q. Let's just go on.

2 JUDGE BONOMY: Can you answer the question, though, which was that

3 you said to him, "You cannot know him, he's the biggest separatist. He's

4 a member of the KLA military police." And you were then asked, "Was that

5 your view of Lutfi Bilalli?" Was it?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's not true that that's what I

7 said to him. First and foremost, as for --

8 JUDGE BONOMY: Let's go back to -- okay, I understand that. Was

9 it your view of him?

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's not correct. That was not my

11 view, because Lutfi Bilalli was not a member of the military police.

12 Lutfi Bilalli was head of the civilian defence. How could I say anything

13 else if he was head of the civilian defence? It can be seen here that --

14 MR. NICE:

15 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... was then taken the following

16 day in a Land Rover by you to the mortuary and introduced to Danica

17 Marinkovic. Do you remember doing that, for the purposes of

18 identification of bodies, although it didn't happen because I think the

19 smell of the bodies was too strong, but still? Do you remember taking him

20 to the mortuary and introducing him to Danica Marinkovic?

21 A. I did not, and I do not remember taking him there. I do not

22 recall doing that at all.

23 Q. He was taken back to your police station. The following morning

24 he returned again, was placed in a conference room, and eventually forced

25 -- obliged to sign a document - he accepts it's his signature - the

1 contents of which were entirely alien to him. Just made it up.

2 A. Mr. Prosecutor, it can be seen here that it was on the 5th of

3 February that the interview was conducted and that the person signed that

4 statement on the 5th of February, that the person was not kept overnight.

5 MR. NICE: Your Honours, I'm going to turn from tab 6 -- oh, yes.

6 I'm going to turn from tab 6 because we can't cover, obviously, everything

7 and I've got to put the case about most of these statements to this

8 witness one way or another but I have other things to deal with as well.

9 Q. If we can look briefly at tab 7. There's just one detail. This

10 may not be able to help me, but if you can, so much the better.

11 Are you aware of the publication called "Fallen Heroes" which

12 records members of the KLA who lost their lives in the conflict?

13 A. I don't know about that.

14 Q. I'll just hold them up so you see them. We've got extracts from

15 them. They look like this. They're published works. Do you see them?

16 Are you aware from your knowledge of the territory and the

17 attitude of the people and the consequences of being recorded as a member

18 of the KLA that in some cases people who died, not as fighting members of

19 the KLA, their families would want them recorded in such books as members

20 of the KLA in some cases?

21 A. I don't know about that. I never saw this book.

22 Q. Are you aware from your knowledge of the territory generally that

23 those who lost their lives in these wars and are recorded as so doing

24 sometimes get financial benefits or, rather, their families get financial

25 benefits if it's shown that they were fighters and warriors?

1 A. I don't have that information.

2 Q. Very well. I take no further of your time on that, but that's --

3 the Court can see -- if the Court wants to see the particular case of the

4 Prosecution on this point, it's in tab 7, and it's at paragraph 22.

5 I turn to tab 8. Were you aware of somebody called Afet Bilalli?

6 A. I did not know him. It's only on the basis of statements that I

7 know that he was commander of the substaff of the KLA for the village of

8 Racak.

9 Q. Correct. And, therefore, you would accept that he would be a

10 person knowing who was active warriors for the -- or fighters for the KLA

11 at the material time?

12 A. Well, yes, probably since he was commander he knows the names and

13 surnames of the men on his unit.

14 Q. One particular person I just want to deal with with him. I've

15 dealt with the substance of what he says through other witnesses as well.

16 Sadik Osmani, he was a member of the Mother Teresa Humanitarian

17 Association, wasn't he?

18 A. I don't know.

19 Q. He was a schoolteacher. Did you know that?

20 A. I don't know. I'm not aware of that because I don't know the

21 person.

22 Q. Would you accept that if a village like Racak found itself under

23 attack - and we're dealing with unusual social circumstances in Kosovo by

24 comparison with, say, this part of Europe - if a village like that was

25 under attack, people would go and gather in the house of an individual

1 rather than leave themselves in their own individual houses? Would you

2 accept that would be a standard reaction?

3 A. Well, I cannot really give an answer to that.

4 Q. Very well. I turn, then, to the general circumstances. I asked

5 you some questions about it yesterday under the heading of police state.

6 Now I'm going to return to that topic for this reason: People at your

7 police station, faced with the prospect of signing statements or not

8 signing them, would have to take account of what they knew of the regime

9 of the police in Kosovo, wouldn't they?

10 A. Well, that's not right. The persons signed their statements

11 voluntarily.

12 Q. And I'm going to suggest to you that you and your colleague or

13 colleagues knew full well that people coming to the police station would

14 be in fear because there would be a general reputation attached to your

15 place station of great violence, and particularly to your police station.

16 A. Well, it's not true, Mr. Prosecutor.

17 Q. Isn't it? Tell us how Ismajl Raka died.

18 A. This is the first time I hear that he died.

19 Q. What do you --

20 A. I don't know who he was interviewed by or whether he was

21 interviewed by anyone.

22 Q. You assume that somebody died following an interview. I hadn't

23 asked you that. I just asked you a name, and I asked you how he died.

24 A. Mr. Prosecutor, that was not my assumption, that someone died. I

25 don't know. I said specifically about him that I don't know. I'm not

1 aware of that case at all.

2 Q. How many people died in police custody at Urosevac during your

3 time there?

4 A. This is a room, a room for detention, and I know that not a single

5 person died in that room, in the detention room.

6 Q. I'm not concerned about the room for the time being. I'm

7 concerned with how many people died while at or immediately following a

8 spell at the police station during your time there. How many?

9 A. I don't know about that.

10 Q. No recollection of people -- this is in tab 9 at page 7, paragraph

11 26. No recollection of 1995 or 1996 when this man Ismajl Raka, on a

12 Saturday, left - and I use a neutral word - the fourth-floor window of the

13 police station? No recollection of that?

14 I'm reading, let me remind you, from the statement of a former

15 colleague.

16 A. I do not remember that. Members of the state security worked on

17 the fourth floor, and I do not recall this case.

18 Q. I don't mean to be flippant, but does it mean that if the body

19 goes from the fourth floor past your floor you would never have heard

20 about it? Come now, Mr. Jasovic. If this happened -- and we'll be able

21 to approach it in another way: If this happened, it would be, surely, a

22 memorable event, that if somebody falls from the fourth floor of a police

23 station to his death. Do you have no recollection of this? Think a

24 little harder.

25 A. I'm telling you sincerely that I do not recall and that I'm not

1 aware of this case, because I cannot talk just like that if I don't know

2 something.

3 Q. The same colleague of yours speaks of somebody from the family

4 Kurti, K-u-r-t-i. Do you remember that family?

5 A. The last name Kurti is one that I remember, but I don't know any

6 family by that name. Probably I remember that last name from statements,

7 but I cannot recall what my actual recollection is.

8 Q. Did the man you interviewed by the name of Kurti simply become one

9 of the disappeared after your interview? Did he just disappear after

10 you'd interviewed him?

11 A. I don't remember that this person was with me. If there is some

12 documents stating anything, please let me have a look at it. I cannot

13 answer questions here just off-the-cuff.

14 Q. That is in tab -- tab 9 -- sorry. Yes, tab 9, at paragraph 38,

15 page 10, in English.

16 MR. NICE: I'll conclude as rapidly as I can tomorrow, but I'm

17 sorry that the matters are so detailed that I've had to be some time, and

18 we'll deal with the language problem as soon as the tape's available.

19 I don't know if the Court -- I'm happy to go on, but if the Court

20 is looking for --

21 JUDGE ROBINSON: We'll stop, but I was just noting that the

22 witness is to be shown tab 9.

23 MR. NICE: It's in English.

24 JUDGE ROBINSON: It's in English?

25 MR. NICE: Yes.

1 JUDGE ROBINSON: All right. Tomorrow.

2 We stand adjourned until tomorrow, 9.00 a.m.

3 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.45 p.m.,

4 to be reconvened on Friday, the 17th day

5 of June, 2005, at 9.00 a.m.

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25