1 Friday, 17 June 2005

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 [The witness entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 9.03 a.m.

6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Nice, before you continue, just to note that

7 we are in receipt of a filing from the head of the interpretation unit

8 with regard to that disputed passage and its interpretation, and the

9 English transcript should be corrected to read: "All the people who are

10 members of the KLA would open fire from the fortifications in the

11 direction of the police."

12 I believe you would have received that.

13 Mr. Milosevic is to be thanked for his intervention.

14 WITNESS: DRAGAN JASOVIC [Resumed]

15 [Witness answered through interpreter]

16 Cross-examined by Mr. Nice: [Continued]

17 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Nice, please.

18 MR. NICE:

19 Q. Mr. Jasovic, I was dealing with death in custody yesterday, and

20 I'm going to continue with that theme for a short while.

21 Kacanik was also an area broadly within your interest, yes?

22 A. Mr. Prosecutor, what I can tell you is that the Kacanik area is an

23 area that I have much fewer information than for the Stimlje area, because

24 in Kacanik area it was peaceful practically until --

25 Q. Very well.

1 A. -- until --

2 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters didn't hear the month.

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] And therefore I have fewer

4 information concerning this area.

5 MR. NICE:

6 Q. I'm cross-examining from a document to be found in volume 2 your

7 materials at tab 9, page 9 of 17.

8 Do you remember an incident in mid-1998 when, in fact, it was Serb

9 policemen who killed another Serb policeman in the Kacanik area?

10 Policemen concerned who did the killing were Ljubisa Boskovic and Slobodan

11 Jankovic. So it was Serb on Serb. Do you remember that?

12 A. Mr. Nice, it's not true that one Serb policeman killed another

13 Serb policeman. As far as I can remember, that case took place in a

14 village. I can't remember the name of the village right now.

15 I remember that it was a criminal offence from Article 125 of the

16 Criminal Code of the then Yugoslavia. It was the criminal offence of

17 terrorism.

18 Ljubisa Boskovic is somebody I know. I think he was assistant

19 commander in the Kacanik organ of the interior.

20 Q. Well, how, then, if he wasn't the killer does he feature in this

21 case? How do you know what case I'm talking about?

22 A. I remember that case while back in Urosevac, and I know for a fact

23 that he was not the killer.

24 Q. No. How does he feature in the case at all? I've asked you about

25 a killing of Serb on Serb. I suggested there was a killing by Ljubisa

1 Boskovic. You know the killing. You say he wasn't involved. What

2 killing was I referring to? You see --

3 A. You told me yourself that a Serb policeman killed another Serb

4 policeman. I don't remember such a case.

5 Q. Well, then how can you connect it with --

6 A. I told you that.

7 Q. -- Boskovic? Come on, help us.

8 A. You yourself mentioned that he was killed by Ljubisa Boskovic.

9 You mentioned his name.

10 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... Ljubisa Boskovic did do the

11 killing, did he?

12 A. No, that's not true. I'm telling you -- I'm stating with full

13 responsibility that it is not true.

14 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... very helpful, Mr. Jasovic,

15 and I'm going to put my last question in this way: There was a case of

16 Serb killing Serb. Danica Marinkovic got involved and said the thing

17 should be dealt with as if it was an act of terrorism by the KLA. That's

18 the way it was hushed up, and this accused sent a telegram along with

19 other dignitaries praising the deceased policeman for his bravery. And

20 that's the way things were in Kosovo in mid-1998; correct?

21 A. No, that's not true, Mr. Nice. I apologise. I feel quite

22 uncomfortable in having to say this, but you keep putting questions to me

23 that are outside of the scope of my work. I can tell you about things

24 based on the documents that I have. I cannot answer questions on behalf

25 of the Urosevac SUP or the chief of the criminal investigation department

1 because that's persons were involved in handling all of the matters in the

2 jurisdiction of the secretariat.

3 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Jasovic, what was the name of the Serb

4 policeman who was killed?

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm telling you frankly I can't

6 remember his name. I just can't. It's been seven years. That was in

7 1998, and it's 2005 now. So it's been seven years, and I can't tell you.

8 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

9 MR. NICE: Moving to tab 10.

10 JUDGE BONOMY: What was the --

11 MR. NICE: Sorry, Your Honour, yes.

12 JUDGE BONOMY: What was the exhibit number or the document number?

13 MR. NICE: It's document 9, and the history can be seen at page --

14 I think I said --

15 JUDGE BONOMY: This is 9 in volume 2.

16 MR. NICE: 9 in volume 2.

17 JUDGE BONOMY: That's fine, thank you.

18 MR. NICE: And it can be found at page 9.

19 Q. If we can then go to tab 10, another person who had direct contact

20 with events at the time, SS376 as he is known. And on page 11 of this

21 document. Sorry, page 12, paragraph 64.

22 This potential witness came to your police station where a body

23 was being removed in about 1993 or 1994, and on that occasion found a body

24 who was said to have committed suicide by jumping from the fourth-floor

25 window. Do you remember anything about that, an alleged suicide from the

1 fourth-floor window in 1993 or 1994.

2 A. Mr. Prosecutor, I feel quite uncomfortable again, but I have to

3 tell you, I have to reiterate that I do not remember that case. On the

4 fourth floor were the offices of the members of the state security.

5 Q. It's quite a big police station. Let's have a look at a picture

6 of it. It's quite a big station so we can have an idea of what it looks

7 like look. The overhead projector doesn't need to be produced. But it

8 gives us an idea of the scale of the building. This is the building where

9 you work.

10 Now, the fourth floor we can see, and the third floor we can see.

11 And we can see the scale of the enterprise, but if prisoners or people

12 detained are alleged to have committed suicide from the fourth floor

13 window it's not a usual -- at least I hope it's not a usual event,

14 Mr. Jasovic. Presumably it's a matter of concern to a police force.

15 Now, do you have no recollection of any prisoner dying in or from

16 custody at this police station?

17 A. I do not remember. I'm stating with full responsibility this.

18 You told me that he had jumped off the fourth floor. I'm claiming with

19 full responsibility that I do not remember the case.

20 Q. I'm not saying he jumped off the fourth floor. I'm saying that

21 the cover story was that he committed suicide from the fourth floor, and

22 I'm asking for your help with what actually happened. Can you help?

23 A. Mr. Prosecutor, if I remembered this, I would have told you.

24 However, I do not remember, and I feel quite uncomfortable about not

25 remembering. I wasn't involved in this case, and I do not remember it.

1 Q. Tab 11, then, please, K56. And on this document, this is another

2 of your colleagues. First of all, is he -- is this colleague of yours

3 right at paragraph 25 in saying that official police documents were burned

4 before you decamped from Kosovo?

5 A. I can say what pertains to my internal documentation that has to

6 do with terrorism cases. This is what I brought with me, and I don't know

7 what happened to the rest of documentation. There were various fields of

8 work, investigation, search, homicide, sexual offences, and so on. So I

9 couldn't tell you anything about this issue. The head of the organ would

10 probably be able to tell you. I really didn't follow this issue, whether

11 this had been burned or not.

12 Q. Well, I'm going to move on from that to 1998. There's a document

13 that I'll just lay on the overhead projector. I only have one copy of it.

14 It's a report, if we can read it in English, from the Humanitarian Law

15 Centre in 1998, and it deals extensively with police violence and

16 brutality, but let's just read two passages and see if something as recent

17 as 1998 is in your recollection.

18 It says here that somebody called Rexhep Bislimi, a Human Rights

19 activist and former prisoner of conscience, died at Pristina hospital on

20 the 21st of July, he having on the 3rd of July been the subject of a

21 district prosecutor request to investigate on charges of seditious

22 conspiracy. He was arrests in Urosevac on the 6th of July, taken to the

23 prison in Gnjilane, transferred to the hospital. His body was covered

24 with bruises. His arm was broken. Photographs were taken. And three

25 ribs were fractured.

1 So he died from a beating, it appears, in the police station. Do

2 you know anything about Rexhep Bislimi?

3 A. I don't know the person Rexhep Bislimi. I don't understand what

4 was said in English, but you said that the person was sent on to the

5 district prison in Gnjilane.

6 Q. Do you want to say that the district prison killed him? By all

7 means do if that's the reality.

8 A. No, no, that's not what I want to say. No, no, no. I don't know

9 whether this person was killed. But if we're talking about Gnjilane,

10 members of the state security in Urosevac came under the security services

11 centre in Gnjilane. What I'm trying to say is that the operations

12 officers of the state security in Gnjilane most likely worked with these

13 persons. I don't remember any Rexhep Bislimi, and I don't know what to

14 tell you and I feel uncomfortable once again.

15 Q. Uncomfortable.

16 A. Well, I don't know how to answer. I wasn't kept abreast. I

17 didn't take part in that work. I don't know anything about it.

18 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... of which we've seen a picture

19 it was possible for these terrible things to be happening that I've

20 recounted to you and you not to know about it? Is that what you're you

21 going?

22 A. Mr. Prosecutor, I don't know that in the police station in

23 Urosevac terror was used or violence or that there were people who were

24 killed there. I don't know about that.

25 Q. The next part of this report that relates specifically to your

1 police station is at the bottom of the page and it says this: "According

2 to the Prizren branch of the Kosovo Committee for the Protection of Human

3 Rights, Maksut Caflesi from Belobrade village died on 23rd of August after

4 being tortured by police in Urosevac. His brother stated that Caflesi was

5 stopped and beaten by police on the Prizren-Urosevac road. He received no

6 medical attention in Urosevac and was subsequently transferred to the

7 Pristina hospital where he died."

8 The report goes on: "Biljal Salja, a 47-year-old teacher and

9 member of the ethnic Albanian Social Democratic Party, died at Urosevac

10 police station on the 29th of August. He was arrested on the 28th of

11 August together with his son Agron, who was released later that day.

12 Agron heard had I father's cries when the police interrogated him. On

13 the 30th of August the family was notified that they could take over

14 Salja's body from the Pristina hospital morgue."

15 Right. What's your state of recollection about those two deaths

16 in custody?

17 A. I did not interview these two persons, and I'm telling you frankly

18 I don't remember any of those two cases. Neither do I remember that they

19 were dead at the police station in Urosevac.

20 Q. You remember these cases, Mr. Jasovic, and it maybe you were the

21 officer involved and you're uncomfortable --

22 A. Mr. Prosecutor, no. No.

23 Q. You're uncomfortable --

24 A. It's not that I'm uncomfortable. I don't remember.

25 Q. You see, we have it again available --

1 A. I guarantee that you can go in and verify. I was not involved in

2 any of those cases, neither in these ones that you mention nor in the

3 previous ones, and I'm stating this very firmly.

4 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Jasovic, how many prisoners could the -- or

5 can the Urosevac police station hold at any one time?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I entered the

7 detention room only twice way back when I was the assistant commander of

8 the police station. So I don't really know that room, and I couldn't tell

9 you whether it was two by three or two by four metres. I really can't

10 remember because it was back in 1980 something when I entered that room

11 only twice. I'm telling you the truth. There's no reason for me to

12 conceal anything. Whether it was two by three metres, I don't know. It

13 was a detention room across from the office in the secretariat premises,

14 and I couldn't tell you whether 20 or 30 persons could fit in. I'm just

15 not sure.

16 JUDGE ROBINSON: So it's the detention room where persons would be

17 held.

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's right. It's a detention room

19 in -- on the ground floor. As I said, across from the office of the duty

20 officer.

21 JUDGE ROBINSON: You don't know the size of the detention room at

22 your police station?

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I couldn't really tell you. I don't

24 know the exact dimensions, the width and the length.

25 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you.

1 MR. NICE:

2 Q. You see, Mr. Jasovic, by 1998 the police state that you were

3 operating was one in which you had impunity. You could act without fear

4 of consequence; is that right?

5 A. No, that's not right. I acted in accordance with the law. I'm a

6 professional, and I have a status of an authorised official. So it's not

7 true that I would be afraid had I used violence, terror, had I overstepped

8 my authorities.

9 Q. Well --

10 A. The law was the same for me and for other colleagues of mine.

11 Q. Not only were you -- I'm sorry, Your Honour?

12 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Jasovic, did you ever arrest anyone?

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I did not take part in operations.

14 I never took somebody into custody or arrested somebody. I can guarantee

15 that.

16 MR. NICE:

17 Q. Not only were you a violent man but by 1998 and thereabouts you

18 had become committed. Your former colleague - tab 9, page 7 of 17,

19 paragraph 25 - describes how you would take people's passports away in the

20 interests of the Serbs. Do you remember doing that? Taking passports

21 away from people to stop them travelling?

22 A. That's not true. That's not true. Persons who were taken into

23 custody or persons who came in to provide information voluntarily would

24 not usually come in with their passports. I did not go out in the field

25 or stop people in the streets to take their passports or their documents

1 away.

2 Q. You --

3 JUDGE KWON: Could you locate the passage again, please.

4 MR. NICE: Certainly. It's tab 9, and it's at paragraph --

5 page 17, I think I said -- well, that must be wrong because there's only

6 16 pages. It was indeed page 7, paragraph 25.

7 Q. You see, another way in which you showed your political commitment

8 was your distress at people buying land from Serbs, at Albanians buying

9 land from Serbs. Do you remember -- remember having anxiety or distress

10 about that?

11 A. It's not true that I was distressed. What I can say about this is

12 that there was the law limiting the sale of real property that provided

13 that if a number of Serbs, residents of one street or so on, wrote a

14 petition, certain measures had to be taken in keeping with the law, and I

15 think that there was also a misdemeanour set forth there.

16 Q. I see. So you got involved in those offences, did you? Despite

17 really being interested in terrorism, you did get yourself involved in

18 misdemeanours concerning land sale, did you?

19 A. No. I personally was not involved in misdemeanours. Criminal

20 complaints or misdemeanours are generally filed by police members.

21 Q. I must move on. Tab 12 of the same volume of materials, and

22 Dr. Xhela Recica who we referred to yesterday. Were you aware that this

23 doctor was being a record of those who were tortured in your police

24 station?

25 A. I told you yesterday or the day before yesterday that I don't know

1 that physician, although I do know a lot of Albanian doctors. However, do

2 I not know him, and I do not know about that.

3 Q. Well, if you'd like please to have -- the Court would like to very

4 swiftly cast its eye over, first of all, the page that begins on the top

5 right-hand corner K0505383, which is the notes he made. If you could just

6 make that available to the witness. Mr. Nort, coming your way. Lay this

7 on the overhead projector, please.

8 You see, this doctor, as from 1991, kept carefully in Latin

9 records of people who came to his practice, he having been thrown out of

10 his job as a doctor earlier. Do you know anything about this doctor at

11 all?

12 A. I have said already that although I know quite a few Albanian

13 doctors, I don't know his name and surname.

14 Q. [Previous translation continues] ...

15 A. I don't know who he is.

16 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... eye down the name -- just do

17 it for 1991 and then we'll do it for 1998. Just cast your eyes down --

18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Robinson.

19 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic.

20 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I think it would be fair to the

21 witness to show him documents in a language he understands.

22 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. Mr. Nice, this is not -- where is this

23 from?

24 MR. NICE: The doctor kept records in Latin about injuries

25 suffered by people coming to him complaining of what they'd received at

1 the police station. No, we haven't translated it.

2 JUDGE ROBINSON: It's on the ELMO and it will have to be

3 sufficient --

4 MR. NICE: I'm grateful.

5 JUDGE ROBINSON: -- interpreters translate it.

6 MR. NICE: Well --

7 JUDGE KWON: Did they not write in hand? It's not a handwritten

8 document.

9 MR. NICE: No.

10 JUDGE KWON: He kept it on computer.

11 MR. NICE: He converted it to a computer.

12 JUDGE KWON: Converted?

13 MR. NICE: I can't remember the details of what he said about

14 that, but it was certainly written in hand and then stored in typed form,

15 yes. He made up a logbook. We can find that in his statement which comes

16 before it. It's paragraphs 9 and 10 of the statement at page 3.

17 "I wrote the diagnosis in Latin," paragraph 9, "I recorded such

18 detail on a protected sure file on my computer. I would write a report on

19 the patient visit, describe his injuries, diagnosis and treatment, and I

20 would add in more details about how they described to me how they received

21 their injuries."

22 This is part of his record.

23 I was going --

24 Q. Mr. Jasovic, if you'd look please at the document on the screen,

25 all I want you to do, please, is to cast your eyes down the names which

1 you will be able to read, starting with Behxhet Hyseni, then going to

2 Milazim Murati, Afrim Xhafaj, Ahmet Hoxha, and so on. Just tell us, do

3 you remember dealing with any of these people -- it's a long time, 1991,

4 but I just wondered if you'd just like to see if any of these names are

5 familiar to you and then we'll go and do the same thing for 1998,

6 reflecting that there are continuous entries throughout the time. Any of

7 those names familiar to you? Any?

8 A. I cannot remember the names. I cannot remember the names. It's

9 1991, as you say. I don't know --

10 Q. All right.

11 A. -- on what grounds they were perhaps brought to the SUP. I'm

12 saying perhaps. I don't know. I don't know whether this is an authentic

13 document.

14 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... good enough to turn on to

15 what is on the foot --

16 JUDGE ROBINSON: What was the diagnosis in relation to, Mr. Nice?

17 MR. NICE: Various. And my Latin is of very indifferent quality,

18 but you can get it if necessary. But you can see various descriptions of

19 abrasions, bruising, I think, contusions, and it may be fractures as well.

20 We haven't had them all translated. Time doesn't permit. But they are

21 complaints coming from Ferizaj police station, for the most part or all.

22 And if Mr. Nort would be good enough to turn to what is at the

23 foot of the page, page 28, we'll see the first there, and I'll only bother

24 with the first of I think it's eight pages and a total of -- a total of 83

25 people complaining in 1998.

1 Q. But perhaps if you'd be good enough when page 28 is there - thank

2 you very much - just run your eyes down the first 14 names of people who

3 complained of mistreatment at your police station.

4 JUDGE ROBINSON: All of them seem to be contusion on the head and

5 body.

6 MR. NICE: Yes.

7 Q. So you see let's just run down these names Nijazi Kadri Shabani,

8 Hyzri Beqir Sejdiu, Xhevat Abdullah Raci, et cetera. Keep your eye down

9 the page. Any you can help us with?

10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Robinson.

11 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic.

12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] On what basis is this medical report

13 linked to the police station? I don't understand that. People go to

14 doctors for various reasons. On the basis of what does Mr. Nice claim

15 today in 2005 that these people had been at the police station and beaten

16 there?

17 JUDGE ROBINSON: He's asking the witness this question, and if the

18 witness can answer, perhaps a connection within established.

19 MR. NICE: If it would help the accused, and if when he has the

20 time to do so, but he's had this file to help him over the weekend, since

21 last week, he's had it over a week, if he goes back and consults the

22 statement of the doctor at the beginning of this tab he'll find the answer

23 to his concerns.

24 Q. Any names that you recognise there, Mr. Jasovic?

25 A. Mr. Prosecutor, I cannot remember these names. I cannot. I

1 cannot remember.

2 Q. If we go on, then, in -- I'm going to come back to the doctor at a

3 later stage where his materials are more easily dealt with, but I want to

4 deal very briefly with some other materials we have about you,

5 Mr. Jasovic, and these are statements of a different kind.

6 First of all, tab 13, Your Honours. In fact, I'm not even sure I

7 need trouble with tab 13. Oh, yes. No, I must deal with tab 13.

8 Were you aware that there was a man called Ruzhdi Jashari? Do you

9 know that man's name?

10 A. The person Ruzhdi Jashari is someone I do not know personally

11 except that I know that he keeps being mentioned in the statements as a

12 member of the KLA.

13 Q. And also a member of -- well, whether he's mentioned in the

14 statements or not, I don't know. But he's also a member of the Council of

15 Human Rights and Freedoms.

16 A. No, I haven't heard of that. I think he was a journalist, too,

17 some correspondent of some paper.

18 Q. Well, people came to him with their own handwritten complaints.

19 And with Mr. Nort's assistance we'll turn in this tab to top right-hand

20 corner page 505193. This is in tab 13, Mr. Nort. Rapidly, please, if you

21 could, 505193.

22 There is an original handwritten version of this lying behind it,

23 but just hand this to the -- Mr. Nort, if you would just hand this

24 please -- no. 515 -- 93. Sorry. 5193. And can you hand this to the

25 witness. Thank you very much.

1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 64 is before 97.

2 JUDGE KWON: It's not filed in an orderly manner.

3 MR. NICE: Thank you very much. Sorry about the --

4 JUDGE KWON: I think paginating of typed document and handwritten

5 document go --

6 MR. NICE: Yes.

7 JUDGE KWON: -- separately.

8 MR. NICE:

9 Q. Now, this is a document that was handed in, handwritten by the

10 person concerned, bearing the date the 8th of June of 1998, and it says

11 this: "At 1030," he deals with his, the circumstances of his detention

12 which were brutal. But then he says: "At 1030 they took me and another

13 man, six of us, aged 20 to 25, to the police station in Ferizaj. There

14 they have beaten us brutally like animals until they got us inside the

15 facility." He lists the various people who were detained.

16 "They asked us," he goes on, "do we know who killed the

17 policemen?" There was a policeman who had been killed. In the end they

18 took our personal data and said that we should give our weapons in by

19 Saturday." "To me personally," he says, "they injured my left eye,

20 bleeding in my jaw and my rib. My wife has injuries to her head." And we

21 see the name of the man at the top, Mehdi Sopaj. An example of somebody

22 who writes his own complaint in 1998 and hands it into the Council for

23 Human Rights. Do you have any recollection of Mehdi Sopaj being dealt

24 with like this?

25 A. I don't know. The person did not come for an interview to see me.

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1 Q. If we go on a --

2 JUDGE BONOMY: Can I ask --

3 MR. NICE: Sorry.

4 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Jasovic, on which floor of the police office

5 was your office?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] On the third floor, number 59. The

7 third floor, number 59.

8 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Nice, will you be seeking to call any of

9 these informants in your rebuttal?

10 MR. NICE: In rebuttal I will be seeking to call, if necessary,

11 the producers of statements, and if the ruling of the Court is it has to

12 be also not just the same level of hearsay as may be allowed at the moment

13 to the accused, then I'll, if necessary, call the complainants themselves.

14 They're alive. I have no problem with that.

15 JUDGE ROBINSON: I'm beginning to form a view about the importance

16 of these statements if we are to be able to form a view, an accurate view

17 of the entire issue.

18 MR. NICE: These people will all be available, and I've only got

19 one more in this connection -- this is of people. If Mr. Nort could go on

20 and find a page which is 5196.

21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Let us just -- let us just clarify

22 one thing, Mr. Robinson. These are not even second -- this is not even

23 secondhand evidence. This is thirdhand evidence, statements. This

24 is: "[In English] Complained in my presence and I certify the documents

25 and I give to investigator Kelly are true copies of the original

1 statement."

2 [Interpretation] So he gives a statement that some Albanians had

3 given statements to him, and Mr. Nice is bringing that in now as evidence

4 without witnesses, without making statements, without cross-examination.

5 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic, I wasn't inviting an argument on

6 the issue.

7 MR. NICE: I only make this comment, not to be thought difficult

8 but just to alert the accused to where we stand, the level of hearsay is

9 identical with the level of hearsay when Danica Marinkovic introduced via

10 the medium of this witness statements of other people. So it's the same

11 level of hearsay.

12 If you'd like to take out the page that follows this, Mr. Nort,

13 and make that available to the witness and we'll read the English version.

14 Q. This, Mr. Jasovic, is --

15 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, you have another objection?

16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes. In relation to the mention of

17 Mrs. Marinkovic now. Danica Marinkovic, investigating judge, explained

18 here that she took statements in the presence of the public prosecutor,

19 the accused or, rather, the suspect and the lawyer of the suspect

20 concerned. So if that is at the same level --

21 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. Yes, Mr. Milosevic. This is not the time

22 to debate that.

23 MR. NICE:

24 Q. If we look at this statement, this is somebody who came back to

25 the Council for Defence of Human Rights and Freedoms in Suva Reka from the

1 village of Laniste wanting to add to an earlier statement that he'd

2 given. And he said this: "During the time I was in the improvised

3 prison, in a private house in Ferizaj which was close to the technical

4 school," where he was held as a hostage, he experienced inhuman tortures

5 that the Serbian police and military used. "They used the most barbarian

6 means, including electric shock, with one and only one intention ..." This

7 comes from a man called Osman Halili.

8 Now, do you remember Osman Halili?

9 A. Mr. Prosecutor, I don't remember this person. But if you have a

10 document, if you have his statement, I will see what he said in the

11 statement except that I see here that he gave this statement on the 9th of

12 August, 2004. I have the statement here in Albanian given in Suva Reka.

13 Q. You see, electric shock as a method of torture by your police

14 station is referred to in a number of sources coming independently. Do

15 you have any comment on that? How could it be that people from different

16 sources and in different ways complain of electric shock?

17 A. It's not true, Mr. Prosecutor. There were no electric shocks. I

18 still don't understand what kind of electric shocks these are. It's not

19 true. I claim to you with full responsibility that there is no truth in

20 that, in this kind of thing, electric shocks and electricity in general.

21 Q. The next tab, tab 14, is a statement made for the Defence in the

22 Limaj case and produced initially to the representative of the defendant

23 there, but can I just ask you for your assistance with this. You can have

24 a look at the handwritten version of it if you want to. In our version it

25 comes at the foot of page 1.

1 This man, whose name we can see -- do you know the name, Adem

2 Selmani?

3 A. I don't have the text.

4 Q. It's coming your way. You will have to cast your eyes down I

5 think --

6 A. Yes, I have his statement in the Albanian language. I see here

7 Adem Selmani.

8 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for Mr. Nice, please.

9 JUDGE BONOMY: The title to this, Mr. Nice, doesn't suggest that

10 it was done for the Limaj case.

11 MR. NICE: If I'm wrong -- you're quite right, it doesn't. Let me

12 just check on that.

13 I think -- Your Honour's quite right to observe the inconsistency.

14 Although it came to people in the Limaj case it was made available to us

15 in the course of the investigation.

16 Q. And what it says, you see, and I'm afraid the handwriting isn't

17 very easy to read, and I can't immediately find the passage --

18 A. I have the text in Albanian.

19 Q. Yes.

20 A. And I cannot read the handwriting although I understand the

21 language.

22 Q. I'll read one passage, or two passages, actually from this

23 statement. It's a man called Adem Selmani and it's at the foot of the

24 English page 1. He says of his time at a school where he was detained in

25 May of 1999 that when he arrived at the school you and Nebojsa Djordjevic

1 and Sparavalo were there, that you took him, that's Adem Selmani, to

2 classrooms and corridors.

3 Now, is it right that you were using a school for the purposes of

4 detaining or interviewing people in May of 1999?

5 A. The school was not used or a school was not used. And secondly, I

6 did not leave my office to go to schools. I don't remember this person.

7 I just see that he gave a statement on the 13th of May, 2005, or, rather,

8 this statement. So obviously he could have complained to KFOR, UNMIK

9 after we had left, and to other organisations that are in charge in Kosovo

10 and Metohija.

11 Q. He alleges that you beat him, ordered them to sing Serb songs and

12 to kiss this accused's picture. Did you do what?

13 A. First of all, we did not beat him. Secondly, we did not make him

14 sing Serb songs. And thirdly, I did not have the accused's picture in the

15 room.

16 Q. On the second page in English of his statement he alleges that as

17 to the Pranvera bar, which we spoke of, I think, yesterday. Do you

18 remember the Pranvera bar?

19 A. Yes. I said previously that due to fear of bombing we were

20 dislocated from the secretariat in Urosevac. So the general crime

21 department was at the Pranvera cafe.

22 Q. [Previous translation continues] ...

23 A. Which means spring in Serbian.

24 Q. [Previous translation continues] ...

25 A. -- and that's where we worked from.

1 Q. He says two things about the people who were detained there.

2 First he says that they were beaten up and electrocuted. I suppose you

3 can just simply say that that isn't true.

4 A. Yes, yes, that's true, that's not true at all. I have no idea

5 what kind of electrocutions or electric shocks you're talking about.

6 Q. He goes on to say that when things got a bit dangerous you

7 policemen would run away from the bar leaving the prisoners behind and

8 they couldn't leave the building because it was mined. The first

9 statement is clarified in a statement taken by Mr. Kelly - yes, by

10 Mr. Kelly - "mined outside the building." Was that building, that

11 Pranvera cafe, mined in order to keep people inside when you wanted to?

12 A. There is no truth in this, Mr. Prosecutor. I never fled from my

13 office, neither I nor my colleagues. That is total -- a total invention.

14 What kind of a silly thing is that, that I leave people in a cafe and that

15 I run to save my life? There is no logic in this.

16 Q. All right. Just a couple more points on this type of material --

17 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Nice, in the third line of this statement

18 there's a reference to a place S-h-t-i-m-e. Now, is that meant to be

19 Stimlje?

20 MR. NICE: Yes. These places frequently have alternative

21 spellings.

22 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Jasovic, was -- was use made of a school in

23 Stimlje for police purposes of any kind?

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know, Your Honour. I don't

25 know if it was used, because during the NATO bombing I had not gone to

1 Stimlje at all.

2 JUDGE BONOMY: Do you know the name Emin Duraku?

3 A. Emin Duraku? I know there is a street by that name in Urosevac,

4 but I don't know exactly in which part of town. Emin Duraku. There is a

5 street by that name.

6 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

7 MR. NICE: Mr. Nort, if you could hand the witness the statement

8 in his own language or in a language he understands from tab 16 and lay

9 the English version on the overhead projector, starting, please, with the

10 second page of the English version, which is the end of the document and

11 then we'll come back to an earlier passage. But --

12 Q. And if you'd like to look, please, in the document before you,

13 which is coming your way, Mr. Jasovic, at the end of the original. This

14 man, Avdi Hysenaj, explains that he saw you on the television testifying

15 against KLA liberators who brought freedom to his people. He was appalled

16 because you were the one who had tortured them and you had the courage to

17 sit in the courtroom in order to cover up your crimes and that maybe led

18 to his identification to the lawyers who made him available to the

19 Prosecution to deal with.

20 His statement, Your Honour, you'll see -- if we then come back to

21 the first page of the statement, he says in summary about what happened to

22 him on the 1st of February of 1999 when he was taken to Stimlje police

23 station to begin with and then was put in a jeep and taken to Urosevac

24 where you were said to be looking for him.

25 So Avdi Xhevat Hysenaj, tell us about him.

1 A. I don't know this person. And what you've been saying that I

2 worked in Stimlje, too, of course citizens of Stimlje and Urosevac know

3 me. I don't know this person. I can't remember. If you have his

4 statement, can you show it to me and can I have a look?

5 Q. [Previous translation continues] ...

6 A. And let me see what he stated.

7 Q. It's the statement that's before you. This is what he stated, and

8 you can follow it with us.

9 A. Oh, yes, his statement. But that he came to see me at the

10 Secretariat of the Interior, I don't remember that and I cannot

11 remember.

12 Q. Well, let's see what he said. Middle of the first page. Having

13 been taken to Urosevac where you were looking for him "they ordered to me

14 to get in where I was originally provoked by a Serb policeman whose name

15 was Qeda or Cedo." Do you know such a policeman?

16 A. I know Cedo but not in Urosevac. He did not work at the police

17 station in Urosevac. He worked at the police station in Stimlje. You can

18 see from that what kind of statement this is.

19 Q. Okay. Very well. It goes on to say this: "Subsequently seven to

20 eight policemen immediately started to beat me up without control. After

21 a while, a policeman came from the upper floor and referred to them saying

22 that Inspector Jasovic wanted to see me. He," that's you, "asked me why I

23 was bleeding. I replied 'Your policemen beat me up.' He then asked me

24 why have they beaten me up and why hadn't I admitted when I was asked. I

25 told him I did not know what to admit. I would tell them if he knew.

1 Jasovic told me that if he asked me questions would I have answered those.

2 I told him I would answer if I knew anything. 'You have to answer if you

3 want to see your children again, otherwise at 2400 hours we're going to

4 cut your head off,' said Jasovic."

5 Now, any recollection with this man Hardin -- I beg your pardon,

6 Avdi Hyseni?

7 A. Mr. Prosecutor, I don't remember. I never looked for this man. I

8 could not dream of that, that he was in the ground -- on the ground floor

9 of the Secretariat of the Interior in Urosevac. I cannot remember this

10 person, really. Is there a statement of his? Then I can have a look at

11 it and see what this person stated.

12 Q. [Previous translation continues] ...

13 A. I have no idea. Me looking for him?

14 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... what he says you did. And he

15 says that: "He told me if I wanted to live I should go to Petrove, and

16 Laniste and bring you," Jasovic, "the KLA list and information about their

17 weapons" or you'd kill him. You asked for KLA names of Petrove village.

18 The witness told you that he knew nothing as he lived in Stimlje since his

19 home had been burnt down. He didn't have any contacts with the village.

20 You, Mr. Jasovic. Asked him who burned down his house and he

21 explained it was burned down when the Serb forces entered the village of

22 Petrove, and at that you became revolted. You started beating him,

23 referring to him words such as "you asked for it" because this is not

24 Kosovo, this is Serbia.

25 He also on leaving -- being allowed to leave the police station

1 had a medical certificate, although it hasn't been I think made available

2 yet to us.

3 What do you say about that? Did you get upset with these people,

4 saying that this was Kosovo, not -- Serbia, not Kosovo?

5 A. I never used words like that. Everything that he said here isn't

6 true. And I state now, too, if that was the case why didn't he complain

7 after we left. Because there were international representatives in Kosovo

8 and Metohija. He could have done that. And I don't know whether this

9 individual came to see me at all, was with me at all. If you have a

10 document or a statement, I don't know. Probably if the individual was --

11 had that person been there, if he was there, if I had taken -- interviewed

12 him, I would have made a note, and I and my colleague Mr. Sparavalo were

13 always together.

14 Q. That's all I need deal with insofar as -- I beg your pardon,

15 there's one other tab I must deal with and it is tab 19. If we can look

16 at that very briefly.

17 This tab goes back to the material provided by the doctor, but

18 it's in this form. Some of it's been summarised and indeed translated.

19 So if Mr. Nort, if you could hand to the witness -- maybe actually on this

20 occasion it may be easier if you bring it to me. Probably save time.

21 Thank you very much.

22 You understand, don't you, Mr. Jasovic, that I've turned your

23 attention to various sources, witnesses in other cases, reports to

24 doctors. We've looked at reports from human rights organisations, and

25 we've started to look at the very people you say you took statements from,

1 and they provide a picture of violence and death at your station.

2 Now, here is a summary report prepared by the human rights

3 organisation in Kosovo, and if the overhead projector has the first page

4 and you have the first page, it's a summary of Serb violence against

5 Albanian civil population during the war from the beginning of 1998 to

6 June 1999. And as to people killed, it says that in the municipality of

7 Ferizaj, 124 people were killed by Serbian police, army, and

8 paramilitaries during the war. And it then goes on to say that six

9 persons in 1998, nine persons January to March 1999, 101 persons March to

10 June 1999, and it goes on to deal with August and into 2000.

11 Now, do you challenge that as many as six people were killed by

12 the police in 1998 as is summarised here? We can look at the supporting

13 documents if we have time, but I won't do it at the moment.

14 This is a human rights organisation preparing statistics from

15 various source that it sets out later. Do you challenge it?

16 A. I do challenge it. I don't know and -- I don't really know what

17 the answer to that question would be. I don't know how to answer.

18 Q. The final point on those reports, and we don't have endless time

19 of course, and it's this and it relates to a point I made to you earlier.

20 The same organisation, you see, dealt with its overall area, which

21 is the population as we can see of Ferizaj area. Population of Ferizaj

22 and Kosovo in general have suffered --

23 A. Ferizaj, Stimlje, Kacanik and Lipjan -- well --

24 Q. You see, what this body records, and it says this: "I've examined

25 these patients," he's dealing with people who have been injured in police

1 custody in the Medicus and Dr. Xhela private clinics. That's the doctor

2 we were talking about earlier. And the analysis includes 449 cases from

3 the following municipalities. Then he breaks down the municipalities

4 between Ferizaj and the other relevant municipalities within his area.

5 And do you see what the results of the statistics coming to this human

6 rights organisation are, that Ferizaj makes up 82.6 per cent of the

7 complaints.

8 Remember I said to you at an earlier part of the questioning that

9 your police station was a particularly violent police station? This

10 report's right, isn't it? It was a particularly violent police station.

11 A. That's not true. In addition to our area, we see the other areas,

12 Vitia, Lipjan, Pristina. Lipjan belongs to the Pristina area, Gnjilane,

13 and so on.

14 Q. Yes. And look at the statistics of returns for those areas,

15 ill-treatment in custody. Your police station tops the list in every

16 conceivable way.

17 A. Mr. Prosecutor, I can't -- don't know how to answer your

18 questions. I think superior officers would be able to answer your

19 questions. They have the statistics. I was a crime inspector, a

20 policeman. I really don't know how to answer these questions for

21 Pristina.

22 Q. [Previous translation continues] ...

23 A. For -- and so on.

24 JUDGE ROBINSON: The statistics for Ferizaj relate to one police

25 station or to several?

1 MR. NICE: My understanding is it relates to the Ferizaj police

2 station. Whether that includes Stimlje I'm afraid I'm not immediately

3 alert to. But I can find out. I think -- I think it's probably the

4 municipality.

5 JUDGE BONOMY: Does that include Urosevac?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Shtima belongs to --

7 MR. NICE: I'm afraid these places always have two names. Ferizaj

8 is Urosevac.

9 JUDGE ROBINSON: Is it one or several police stations?

10 MR. NICE: As far as we know it's one municipality and police

11 station.

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In Urosevac there was one police

13 station, public police station, and for the traffic police and other

14 police station for the traffic police.

15 MR. NICE: Your Honour, the point I think is clear because four --

16 four entries down we're back to Stimlje, and I think that's Stimlje again.

17 JUDGE BONOMY: What's the tab number for this?

18 MR. NICE: This is tab number 19. And I've got one more question

19 to ask on tab 19.

20 JUDGE KWON: Page?

21 MR. NICE: And the part of tab 19 it's a sort of second block of

22 materials or third block. I'm afraid they're not page numbered.

23 JUDGE KWON: Yes, page 1.

24 MR. NICE: Third block, page 1. With all the supporting analysis

25 thereafter. With your leave I'll just come back to the first document I

1 was showing him from this tab because there is one other question I should

2 have asked him. And if he'd have the original and if the Court would be

3 good enough on the first part of this tab to go to page 3, and if Mr. Nort

4 would display page 3 in the English on the overhead projector.

5 Q. And if you, Mr. Jasovic, would go to the second page of the

6 document you have. You'll see a block a paragraph headed 1998, which ends

7 with these five lines: "Many political and human rights activists have

8 been imprisoned and sentenced during the months of June and July of this

9 year 1998. These include -- then there's Cen Dugolli, Sylejman Bytyci,

10 Yiber Topalli, Xhavit Zariqi, Agim Recica from the LDK." And then NKMDLNJ

11 activists Bislimi, Ferizi, Zymberi, all sentenced by the Serb installed

12 court up to 15 years in prison, whereas Bislimi, Rexhep Bislimi, Cen

13 Dugolli and Bilall Shala were tortured to death in Serbian prisons.

14 And in the next paragraph dealing with murder of activists, it

15 says: "After their imprisonment those three men, having been tortured

16 severely and in different brutal ways by Serbian policemen and inspectors,

17 died in prison. Bislimi, an activist, arrested on the 6th of July, died

18 on the 21st in prison in Pristina. Cen Dugolli, arrested on the 21st of

19 June, died on the 17th of August in prison in Pristina. Bilall Shala,

20 arrested on the 28th of August, died 48 hours later at the Ferizaj

21 Urosevac police station. Tortures proved by photographs that were taken

22 after their deaths. These were murders without trial.

23 Right. Your police station involved. What do you know about the

24 deaths of these three men?

25 A. What I can say first here is that none of these individuals came

1 to me for an interview. I can't say anything. I assume that these

2 individuals, well possibly, possibly they had been for an interview in the

3 state security sector. That's my assumption. So I can't really say

4 anything about them. I don't know. I didn't talk to the individuals. I

5 don't know whether they were detained or not detained, nor do I know

6 whether they were in the Secretariat of the Interior of Urosevac at all.

7 Q. So yet again if it's true that these police -- these deaths

8 happened in or following custody at your police station you know

9 absolutely nothing about it. Is that really right?

10 A. Mr. Prosecutor, in detention as you say, in custody, the room they

11 were told in there were no deaths. Prove to me that anybody was -- died

12 in that room, in the detention room. I think I've already said that.

13 Q. Not necessarily in the detention room itself, Mr. Jasovic, you

14 know this, but after the treatment they received there in your office and

15 elsewhere or when they fell out of the window or when they were thrown out

16 of the window, you know nothing of that, do you?

17 A. Mr. Prosecutor, in my office they didn't fall out of the window.

18 In other offices I can't say. Now, you want me to tell you something

19 about the entire secretariat, what happened in the whole secretariat. I

20 had my line of work, so I can tell you about what I did. And I said a

21 moment ago as well that it would be the superior officers who would be

22 better placed to answer that question, who deal with matters of that kind.

23 How I do know whether they were taken into custody, whether they were on

24 the premises of the secretariat or not.

25 Q. Mr. Jasovic we're going to turn to another topic, I think I've

1 dealt with volume 2 of our materials.

2 MR. NICE: Can I ask the Chamber to take again the binder of Racak

3 materials. I thought I may have concluded with that but on review

4 overnight I think there are things I ought to draw to the Court's

5 attention and indeed to the witness's attention in our search for an

6 account of what the Serb side said and what this witness can help us with.

7 And I know that these ones are not tabbed with proper tabs.

8 They're tabbed at the top. And if the Court would be good enough to go to

9 what is marked as at the top tab 5, and I'm afraid there is -- yes, there

10 is. There's a Serb language version for the witness. If that could be

11 made available to the witness, please, Mr. Nort. It's at the end of -- I

12 think Mr. Nort will need help with this, actually. Don't worry, we'll

13 hand you the documents separately. If he can have tab 5 English on the

14 overhead and tab 5 original for the witness.

15 And if you'd like to go, first of all, to the last page of the

16 English and the last page of the Serb.

17 Now, the reason we're looking at the last page is just for this

18 reason: The typed document or it may be a faxed document or whatever

19 appears to be signed by someone called Janicevic but it's considerable

20 Bogoljub Janicevic. Do you have any doubt that this is indeed your

21 superior officer?

22 The English is wrong. The original is right.

23 Q. This comes from your superior officer, yes?

24 A. Mr. Janicevic Bogoljub at that time was the chief of -- yes, chief

25 of the Secretariat of the Interior in Urosevac.

1 Q. If Mr. Nort you could now come back to the beginning of this

2 document, page -- the first page, page 1 of it.

3 If you'd like to follow this with me, please, Mr. Jasovic. Oh.

4 In a second.

5 This is a document as you're reading it and we can follow it, the

6 Judges and I, we'll wait for public display, dated the 15th of January.

7 So the same day.

8 What it says under the first paragraph is that measures were taken

9 to seal off the village with a view to capturing and destroying a

10 terrorist group.

11 No question of arresting, detaining, or interviewing, was there?

12 It's capturing and destroying. Right? That's the words that he uses.

13 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The word that is used in the Serbian

15 language in this telegram from the chief of SUP is in the -- with the aim

16 of apprehending, it says. With the aim of apprehending.

17 MR. NICE: And --

18 JUDGE ROBINSON: No destroying? There is no destroying.

19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Then it says "and destroying" but

20 apprehending or capturing. Mr. Nice insists on capturing and destroying.

21 Here it says apprehending. And the liquidation of a group implies in

22 police terms --

23 MR. NICE: [Previous translation continues] ...

24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] -- apprehending.

25 MR. NICE: No interpretation by the accused. Thank you.

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1 Q. You see, you remember yesterday we heard from -- on the

2 television programme Goran Radosavljevic saying how they received orders

3 to attack to destroy terrorists and indeed he later used the word

4 liquidate. This document, Mr. Jasovic, speaks then of capturing or

5 apprehending and destroying a terrorist group. Did you understand that to

6 be the purpose of this exercise?

7 A. In the aim of capturing and finding -- you see, the police never

8 aims at destroying a terrorist group. It is to find them, to uncover them

9 and capture them, the possible perpetrators of attacks and so on.

10 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... like that, Mr. Jasovic. Use

11 your own brain and language, please.

12 Let's go to the next paragraph which begins: "The battle with" --

13 A. Mr. Prosecutor, I cannot understand that what is called for is

14 liquidation of a terrorist group. I know that it should be uncovered and

15 deprived of liberty, taken into custody.

16 Q. Liquidation means killed, doesn't it? It's quite simple.

17 A. To deprive of liberty doesn't mean to kill.

18 Q. Liquidation means to kill.

19 A. I don't know.

20 Q. Don't you? Well, let's look at the next paragraph and see if you

21 can help us.

22 JUDGE BONOMY: Well --

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You see, Mr. Prosecutor, you're

24 putting me -- you're giving me a telegram, a dispatch, signed by the chief

25 of SUP, Bogoljub Janicevic. Now, I cannot comment on his telegram. I

1 don't know I'm a crime policeman. I cannot comment on something written

2 by the chief of SUP.

3 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Jasovic, the paragraph that begins starting at

4 0300 hours on the 15th of January, could you read the first three lines or

5 the first sentence of that, please?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] "On the 15th of January, 1999,

7 starting at 0300 hours, measures were taken to block off the village of

8 Racak, Stimlje municipality, with a view to capturing and destroying a

9 terrorist group which, according to our information, had committed a

10 number of terrorist attacks with lethal consequences in the territory of

11 Urosevac."

12 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you very much.

13 MR. NICE:

14 Q. Shall we now look at the next paragraph to assist us with our

15 understanding of what liquidate, or "liquidirana" [phoen], I think it is,

16 means. This paragraph reads as follows, doesn't it: "The battle with the

17 terrorists lasted until 1530 hours. During the search of the village fire

18 was opened at police members from a 12.7 millimetre Browning and a mortar.

19 The terrorist group was liquidated with maximum effort on the part of the

20 police."

21 Liquidated meant killed, because that's what happened to them.

22 Correct?

23 A. The word liquidated means liquidated, killed.

24 Q. Thank you. The next paragraph --

25 A. Or to kill.

1 Q. The next paragraph deals with the accidental -- or the injury of

2 ricochet suffered by Bojan Trajkovic. But next paragraph, and I only draw

3 this to attention for two reasons, one, some interest, it refers to a

4 horseshoe ambush was applied in the blockade, and it was laid between the

5 villages of Luznica and Rance, behind terrorist trenches and connecting

6 trenches. During action by the unit and attempts to arrest members of the

7 terrorist gang, so here is a reference to arrest, these fell into the

8 ambush. "The terrorists opened fire at the same time and after some hours

9 of fighting they were liquidated. Even though they had been called on to

10 surrender, none of the terrorists wanted to do so."

11 So in this paragraph we have a reference, I don't accept that it's

12 in any sense accurate, but we have a reference to attempts to arrest, and

13 the use the word "ambush," and the use of the word "liquidate."

14 Does this fit with your recollection of what you were told by your

15 colleagues?

16 A. The place of Luznica does not belong to the municipality of

17 Stimlje or Urosevac. I don't know where that place is located at all. I

18 don't know about this ambush, and I can state that I -- this is the first

19 time I hear of it. I don't know about this operation at all.

20 Q. Then apart from the fact that we see the next sentence again

21 begins with the word liquidate or has the word liquidate. The Court would

22 go over to the second page in the English. And if you, Mr. Jasovic, would

23 go over to the third page in the Serb version. We see towards the bottom

24 of the English page and at the top of your page: "Seven persons were

25 taken into custody to be interviewed on the issue of terrorism and were

1 turned over for further work to the OSL of the Urosevac SUP ..."

2 So this must be you. Terrorism, people to be interviewed, seven

3 of them. Who were they?

4 A. Well, I don't know. I can't say off the top of my head. How

5 would I know who those people were? If I have a document shown me, then I

6 could perhaps tell you, or if you know something about them or I could see

7 in the statements, but like this I really can't say. I don't know what

8 happened six years ago. It wasn't just one document. As I said, there

9 were a large number of documents.

10 Q. Well --

11 A. There's no need for me to hide who the people were if I knew who

12 they were.

13 Q. Were you provided for the purposes of your work with any witnesses

14 to interview as early as this day, the 16th of January? Were you? Were

15 you provided with anyone to interview?

16 A. Well, I can't remember the date. If I were to look at the

17 statements, perhaps, then I could tell you. But datewise, well, if I have

18 statements linked to the date the 16th then certainly I did conduct the

19 interviews. But if there are no statements I just can't remember.

20 Q. And do you remember the question you've been asked before? Was

21 there any person interviewed to give an account of how the killings

22 actually happened? We've got this statement from the chief of police

23 which is obviously a summary of some kind or pretend summary of some kind.

24 Have you got any statements from any witnesses?

25 A. I can't answer that. The chief of the secretariat here, it was a

1 telegram by the then chief of the secretariat, a dispatch by him.

2 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... please tab 15 in the bundle.

3 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Jasovic, were the events at Racak regarded

4 as -- as an important stage leading to -- ultimately to the war, to the

5 bombing?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I really can't say, Your Honour. I

7 couldn't answer that. I don't know how to answer that question, whether

8 it was an important stage leading to the NATO bombing. I really can't

9 say. I don't know.

10 JUDGE BONOMY: Can you mention to me or name to me any other

11 incident where 40 or 45 people died and you then had the opportunity to

12 interview witnesses from the scene of the events that led to their death?

13 A. I am telling you -- well, I can't remember whether in some other

14 incident more than 45 people were killed. As I said yesterday, I -- as

15 for the 15th of January, 1999, I didn't come to the individuals who were

16 eyewitnesses in the village of Racak.

17 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, could you answer my question? Can you name

18 me another event where 40 to 45 people or a large number of people were

19 killed and you then had an opportunity to interview the witnesses or some

20 witnesses to that event?

21 A. On the basis of statements, I cannot remember having had

22 information where more than 45 people were killed. On the basis of the

23 interviews conducted with persons of Albanian ethnicity.

24 JUDGE BONOMY: I find it quite difficult to understand why you

25 can't remember one way or the other whether you interviewed people after

1 the events at Racak.

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I talked to individuals of Albanian

3 ethnicity. I conducted interviews or information, conversations, but I

4 said that I didn't -- for me to talk to policemen, which I didn't do, then

5 I would need one of my superiors, a boss to tell me to do so.

6 JUDGE BONOMY: We're not dealing with that at the moment. We're

7 dealing with seven people who, according to this report, were taken into

8 custody at Racak. Now, I find it difficult to see why you can't remember

9 whether you interviewed these people or not in custody.

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I say with full responsibility that

11 I don't know the names of the people who were taken into custody, and I

12 can't say off the top of my head. I'm not saying whether I did or did

13 not. I can't remember the names of the individuals, quite simply, because

14 it's been more than six years since that time, and I can't remember if

15 there are statements. If you can show me statements that I conducted an

16 interview, I would be able to tell you what the person stated in his

17 statement, but I say with full responsibility that like this I just don't

18 know. I can't remember. There's no need for me to hide these facts. If

19 I did conduct an interview then I did, but I'm just saying that I really

20 can't remember.

21 JUDGE BONOMY: Do you consider yourself to have a normal memory?

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the passage of time

23 here involved has been more than six years. Now, if the persons were

24 taken into custody, perhaps they weren't taken into custody and brought to

25 me. Perhaps it was the state security sector that took them into custody.

1 I just can't remember. I think my memory is normal.

2 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Bonomy, if I might be of

4 assistance. May I be of assistance to you and the witness?

5 Here in tab 1.44, there is a statement by an individual which was

6 given on the 16th of January, for instance. Perhaps you can have a look

7 whether that's it. The witness himself said that he took 700 statements

8 of that kind, and you can follow the statements with their dates. They

9 are his exhibits.

10 MR. NICE: [Previous translation continues] ... to those very

11 shortly.

12 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.

13 MR. NICE: In any event and for my own purposes. I don't know if

14 the Court's looking for a moment. I'm --

15 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. We are going to take the break now. We

16 will adjourn for 20 minutes.

17 --- Recess taken at 10.33 a.m.

18 --- On resuming at 10.59 a.m.

19 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Nice.

20 MR. NICE:

21 Q. Mr. Jasovic, before we return, I have just two or three little

22 details I want to be sure I understand. These statements that you say

23 were made to you voluntarily by individuals who came into the police

24 station or were brought to the police station, is what appears in the

25 statements what they dictated to you or is it what they said and you

1 reformulated it?

2 A. That's not true. What they stated is written in the statements.

3 Q. There's not, for example, any significant missing questions that

4 we need to know about to understand the statements, for example, you

5 saying, "Tell me if so-and-so was a member of the KLA"? Was there that

6 sort of questioning?

7 A. At the beginning of the interview, as the person is a resident of

8 the village, was a resident of the village, we mostly asked the person

9 about the following: Are there any members of the KLA in that village or

10 in surrounding villages, and could the interviewee give us the names. And

11 then in the course of interview further on we would ask whether these

12 persons participated in the terrorist attacks and so on.

13 Q. I see. But the names just came out completely voluntarily in

14 answer to the most neutral question. Is that your evidence?

15 A. These were not neutral questions. If the interviewee was from

16 Racak, then I would ask, "Are there any KLA members there? Who are the

17 members? Are there any trenches dug out, communication trenches, and so

18 on. This is regular procedure of the organ of the interior.

19 Q. But did you ever press any with, "But isn't so-and-so a member of

20 the KLA?" Did you ever do that?

21 A. Listen, my method of work was as follows: If the interviewee gave

22 me several names, then I would go back to establish for certain whether

23 the names were right, whether these people were indeed members of the KLA

24 or not.

25 Q. Second little detail. When the statement was typed up, is it your

1 evidence that the statement was read over to the person? I think you've

2 told us it was, but just to be sure about it.

3 A. Every statement was dictated by me to my colleague, Mr. Momcilo

4 Sparavalo, who typed it on the typewriter.

5 Q. And was it read to the person?

6 A. The statement was either read out or was given to the interviewee

7 to read it himself if the person in question spoke Serbian well.

8 Q. And then they all happily signed these statements; is that right?

9 A. Upon learning of the contents of the statement, they would sign

10 the statement voluntarily, which in my view was normal, because these

11 statements were taken from them without any kind of coercion. There was

12 no extortion of statements.

13 Q. And nobody ever objected, for example, to the use of the little

14 phrase "so-called KLA" in all the statements that you produced, did they?

15 A. No. I never came across a case where somebody objected.

16 Q. Because of course it wasn't they who said to you, "Mr. Jasovic, my

17 son was a member of the so-called KLA," it was you who added the

18 words "so-called," and they never objected; is that right?

19 A. No. I never added. They themselves would use the words "the

20 so-called KLA," the illegal organisation.

21 Q. Let's just follow that. Every one of these Albanians whose

22 statement says "so-called KLA" has a conversation with you where they

23 say, "Mr. Jasovic, my son was a member of the so-called KLA." Is that

24 what you're telling us?

25 A. I'm telling you that we interviewed people who had been brought

1 in, and they themselves would tell us that the so-called liberation army

2 of Kosovo had been established, and we would have problems.

3 Q. You need to go no further with that answer. I'm only too happy to

4 hear you give it, and we'll move on to something else.

5 A tiny point. Stimlje had its own police station and Racak fell

6 within Stimlje, a police station which had a very low incidence on the

7 records of police violence. Why was it that Racak people were interviewed

8 and dealt with by you at your police station?

9 A. At the police station, we did not have the criminal investigation

10 department or division. Such matters came normally under the jurisdiction

11 of the criminal investigation division, and the Stimlje office came under

12 the Urosevac SUP. The law on the internal affairs specifies precisely

13 what matters come under the police.

14 MR. NICE: Mr. Nice, the validity of your point about "so-called"

15 may depend on how that term is used in Serbian. Maybe it doesn't have the

16 same connotation as in English.

17 MR. NICE: We'll find out.

18 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, it depends on its connotation also in

19 Albanian, not just Serbian.

20 MR. NICE: Indeed it does. I'll deal with the point if I can a

21 little later.

22 JUDGE ROBINSON: I know if there is a difference, we can rely on

23 Mr. Milosevic.

24 MR. NICE: Your Honour, if there is a difference we may expect

25 contribution from Mr. Milosevic.

1 JUDGE ROBINSON: Contribution, yes.

2 MR. NICE:

3 Q. Mr. Jasovic, as a policeman of some experience, you will confirm

4 this general truth: That crooks and criminals and conspirators seeking to

5 cover up crimes often fail to cover their tracks sufficiently, don't they,

6 and that's how you catch them?

7 A. Mr. Prosecutor, I interviewed - I apologise - generally not

8 criminals or prisoners.

9 Q. I see. Well, let me suggest to you, because I want it to be quite

10 clear, I suggest to you that you, your chief, Danica Marinkovic, Goran

11 Radosavljevic, the unnamed head of the military, Djordjevic, Sainovic, and

12 others were and acted as common criminals in an attempt to disguise what

13 they had done, no doubt on behalf of this accused, at Racak, but that you

14 didn't successfully cover your tracks. I shall now explain to you why I

15 say that. Do you understand the proposition?

16 A. I understand your question, and that is not true. Except for the

17 former chief of SUP, Mr. Bogoljub Janicevic, and Mrs. Danica Marinkovic,

18 whom I accompanied once to conduct on-site investigation when the

19 commander of the Kacanik police station was killed, I know these persons

20 only officially, through official contacts. I met her on that day.

21 Otherwise, I heard about them but I don't know them personally.

22 MR. NICE: Your Honours, I don't desire to linger with this

23 witness on what is tab 9, but dealing with things sequentially, the

24 Chamber may be interested in it, and my question to the witness derived

25 from it is this:

1 Q. Can you think of any reason why Janicevic, your boss, as early as

2 the 16th of January of 1999, should be denying the involvement of the VJ

3 in this operation?

4 A. Mr. Prosecutor, I don't know the answer. Most likely my former

5 boss would be able to answer that.

6 Q. Well, is the answer this, and I question you about it, the Chamber

7 will find reference to it in Exhibit 446, that as early as June 1998, a

8 plan had been organised involving Lukic, Gajic, Trajkovic, Radosavljevic,

9 and others to deal with terrorism, as it was described, but without

10 invoking a state of emergency situation? And without a state of emergency

11 situation, it would have been improper to involve the army.

12 Now, thinking back, and I realise you'll claim that you're in a

13 lowly position, but is that the truth, that this accused or whoever

14 decided not to have a state of emergency and, therefore, the use of the

15 army to deal with so-called terrorism would have been improper? Does that

16 fit with your recollection?

17 A. Mr. Prosecutor, I apologise once again, but I can't answer that

18 question either. How would I know when these people were above me? They

19 were my superiors, and they did not inform me about everything.

20 Q. Well, then let's come back to somebody who is nearer your level,

21 and tab 15 of the bundle coming your way in Serbian on the overhead

22 projector in English, we see a document dated the 17th of January from

23 Bogoljub Janicevic, and it's dealing with just one small part of the

24 history, and I suggest it's a part that everybody knew needed to be

25 covered up but only a very small part.

1 Now, you see, this statement or report on the 17th of January

2 focuses on -- well, let's read it:

3 "Sadik Mujota, son of Murat, born on the 20th of February, 1943,

4 in the village of Malopoljce, in the municipality of Stimlje where he

5 lived, and his daughter, who was actively involved in the so-called KLA,

6 were executed on the 15th of January ..."

7 Why was his teenage daughter executed?

8 A. Sadik Mujota and his daughter, just as his son, Jasic Mujota

9 [phoen], and I'm telling you based on conducted interviews and statements,

10 they went from the Malopoljce a village and joined the KLA in the village

11 of Racak because the son of Sadik Mujota is married to the daughter of

12 Mehmed Mustafa.

13 Q. [Previous translation continues] ...

14 A. I am telling you. I'm answering.

15 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... tell us so that we may know

16 what this teenage girl did that merited execution. Please.

17 A. I don't know what she did. But I know that she was a member of

18 the KLA.

19 Q. [Previous translation continues] ...

20 A. I don't know. I don't have information to the effect that she

21 committed murders.

22 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic.

23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I would like to ask you to tell me

24 where I can find this document. Mr. Nice, at tab 15, and said this was a

25 report of the 17th of January, 1999.

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is a document

2 entitled "Information."

3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Is that in the Racak binder?

4 MR. NICE: It's in the Racak binder and he can find it at the top

5 right-hand corner if he wants to. It's got 03066453. Sorry, in his

6 version.

7 JUDGE ROBINSON: In his version.

8 MR. NICE: It's -- it's K0225863. And I can make my version

9 available if it's going to save time. I'm grateful to Ms. Anoya.

10 Q. Mr. Jasovic, if I may suggest to you answering I know someone is a

11 member of the KLA may not be very helpful?

12 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, Mr. Nice, please.

13 MR. NICE:

14 Q. Mr. Jasovic, if I may suggest to you that answering I know someone

15 is a member of the KLA is not going to be very helpful. Or may not be

16 very helpful. Would you now please tell the Court what the teenage

17 daughter of Sadik Mujota did on the day of the 15th or had done on days

18 before to merit her execution?

19 A. Mr. Prosecutor, I think I was brief and to the point. I don't

20 know what her activities within the KLA were. All I can tell you is what

21 I know based on the statements. I know that she was a member of the KLA

22 and that from Malopoljce village she went to Racak and joined the KLA

23 there together with her father and her brother.

24 JUDGE ROBINSON: You know that she was executed on the 15th of

25 January?

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I know based on the statements. I

2 think that I even said so yesterday or the day before yesterday. I

3 mentioned the five bodies which were not in the mosque in Racak.

4 MR. NICE: [Previous translation continues] ... in the original

5 is --

6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Nice. Mr. Milosevic.

7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] That's precisely what I wanted to

8 mention. In this document, no execution whatsoever is mentioned. No

9 execution is mentioned. It says here: "On the 15th of January, in the

10 operation aimed at finding and capturing Siptar terrorist members, Sadik

11 Mujota, born on such-and-such date in Malopoljce where he resides, just as

12 his daughter who was an active member of the so-called KLA." So it

13 doesn't say here that anybody was executed.

14 Mr. Nice --

15 JUDGE ROBINSON: That would be a very serious mistranslation.

16 MR. NICE: I'm not see sure, Your Honour. Let me ask the witness

17 a few questions, if I may.

18 Q. You've used the word "liquidated" earlier today, Mr. Jasovic,

19 hadn't you?

20 A. I didn't use the word "to liquidate." I was simply reading out a

21 passage from a dispatch.

22 Q. You explained to us what it meant, and it meant to be killed,

23 didn't it?

24 A. That's true.

25 Q. And it doesn't --

1 A. To liquidate means to kill.

2 Q. And it doesn't mean, for example, to be killed in a car accident.

3 It doesn't mean to be killed as a result of natural causes. It doesn't

4 mean to die as a result of falling off a mountain. It means to be killed

5 by the process of liquidation, which is in the circumstances of a single

6 killing probably the same as execution. Do you agree?

7 A. To liquidate means to deprive of life, literally. Naturally, not

8 in a traffic accident or something like that, because if there is a

9 traffic accident, then a person cannot be liquidated simply they -- it

10 would be described as being killed in a traffic accident.

11 MR. NICE: Your Honour --

12 JUDGE ROBINSON: I'd like to have the B/C/S put on the ELMO, that

13 first paragraph, so we can have it translated.

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Should I read this out?

15 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, please read it out, the interpreters.

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It says in the

17 heading, "Information."

18 JUDGE ROBINSON: Go ahead, interpreter, yes.

19 THE INTERPRETER: Your Honour, the witness should read it out in

20 B/C/S and then we would interpret into English.

21 JUDGE ROBINSON: All right. Yes. Can't you just read it from

22 the -- from what is on the ELMO?

23 THE INTERPRETER: Yes, we can, but the professional rules

24 generally indicate that somebody should read it out and we should

25 interpret.

1 JUDGE ROBINSON: Let's follow the professional rules that the

2 witness reads it and the interpreters interpret.

3 Go ahead, Mr. Jasovic.

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] "Information. On the 15th of

5 January, 1999, in an operation aimed at locating and capturing Siptar

6 terrorist gangs in the territory of the village of Racak, Stimlje

7 municipality, Mujota Sadik, son of Murat, was liquidated. He was born on

8 the 20th of February, 1943 in the village of Malopoljce, Stimlje

9 municipality, where he resides. Also liquidated was his daughter who was

10 actively involved in the so-called KLA."

11 Should I read on?

12 JUDGE ROBINSON: No, that's enough. Yes.

13 MR. NICE: Thank you.

14 Q. Now, we know what "liquidated" means, if there's any difference

15 from execution, but I'm not concerned to pursue that. Perhaps you'll tell

16 us what this teenage girl who ran to her father when she was to be killed

17 on, I think on the available evidence, what she had done to merit

18 liquidation.

19 A. Mr. Prosecutor, all I know regarding her was that she was actively

20 involved in the KLA, that she was a member of the KLA. I was not there on

21 site --

22 Q. I want detail. I want detail from you as to how this teenage girl

23 was liquidated and why. Don't you?

24 A. I don't know how she was liquidated. I was not there on site. I

25 was not present there. How would I know?

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1 Q. That's it. How would you know? Well, let's explore this document

2 which claims to be a report from your boss. If a document of this kind

3 comes into the possession of the police, or they realise these things have

4 happened as soon as the 17th of January and that a young teenage girl has

5 been killed, would that be a matter the police should inquire into

6 separately to see if her death was justified or, for example, an excessive

7 zeal by a policeman or soldier? Is this something that should have been

8 inquired into?

9 A. Mr. Prosecutor, normal procedure is to investigate each case.

10 After the events in the village of Racak, we focused our operative work on

11 the events in the village of Racak, all of the events.

12 Q. I'm taking the Judges and this accused through the available

13 material that we've got, chronologically, that shows what you forces of --

14 well, police and justice department did, and my suggestion to you is that

15 the focus on this young girl and writing her off as a KLA activist as

16 early as the 17th of January is simply a reflection of the fact that you

17 knew there was no justification for her death, and you'd get caught out if

18 you didn't try and say something about her being an active KLA member.

19 Would that just about fit with your boss's approach?

20 A. Mr. Nice, that's not true. I told you several times and I can

21 repeat that she was a member of the KLA.

22 In the statements, as for her role in the KLA, based on the

23 interviews I wasn't able to find out what exactly was her role and what

24 were her tasks.

25 Q. Did you try?

1 A. Through the interviews, yes, I did try.

2 Q. [Previous translation continues] ...

3 A. Not just regarding her.

4 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... ask?

5 A. In the interviews conducted with these persons, and I can't give

6 you the names of these persons because I don't remember.

7 Q. Where we would find a record of the questions you asked and the

8 efforts you made to find out about this unfortunate girl?

9 A. Mr. Prosecutor, while conducting interviews, the persons who came

10 in to give statements simply told me that she was a member of the KLA but

11 did not elaborate on her role, on her tasks within the KLA. I did not

12 acquire such information.

13 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Jasovic, may I ask you whether in your

14 opinion would the -- would her active membership of the KLA by itself be a

15 sufficient reason for her liquidation, for her being killed?

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. President, first of all, I'd

17 like to refer to some other things. Her father, Sadik Mujota, was

18 well-known. Previously he had raped females -- Albanian females.

19 JUDGE ROBINSON: I'm sorry to stop you, but I just asked whether

20 in your view the active membership of this girl would be a sufficient

21 reason for her to be killed. Never mind about her father. Would the

22 active membership of any person in the KLA be a sufficient reason for that

23 person to be killed?

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, it would not constitute a

25 sufficient reason. I don't know what was the course of the operation

1 conducted there. It was not the task of the police to kill or liquidate.

2 The task was to locate and apprehend.

3 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you. Mr. Nice.

4 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Nice, do you have the name of this daughter of

5 Sadik Mujota?

6 MR. NICE: Yes, certainly. It's Hanumshah.

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Hanumshah. I will assist you.

8 Hanumshah.

9 JUDGE KWON: She does not appear in the list, Schedule A of the

10 indictment.

11 MR. NICE: No, she doesn't.

12 JUDGE KWON: Is she one of the five dead persons whose body was

13 taken by KLA members and buried in KLA cemetery.

14 MR. NICE: Maybe one of nine. But Your Honour is right, she was

15 taken away. We can find a reference to her. I won't disturb the line of

16 documents --

17 JUDGE KWON: She appear at all in "Fallen Heroes" or the

18 "Phoenix"? Sadik Mujota may appear.

19 MR. NICE: Sadik Mujota may appear.

20 JUDGE KWON: But not his daughter.

21 MR. NICE: No. And Your Honour, we will find a reference to her

22 in tab 1.50. And I don't invite you to go to it now because we may look

23 at it later in any event. But the limit of identification of her is as

24 someone who Sadik Mujota brought with his three sons to the KLA substaff

25 in Racak village. That's it. There's a bit more. Claiming that they

1 were previously in the so-called KLA in Malopoljce, Petrove, and Rance

2 village and came to the so-called KLA in Racak because somebody's daughter

3 was married to Sadik Mujota's son. But that's the limit. We'll look at

4 it a bit more later.

5 Q. All right. Now, then, Mr. Jasovic, what you're -- I'm going to

6 move on from that topic?

7 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, if you are --

8 MR. NICE: Yes, I am.

9 JUDGE BONOMY: -- can I ask you one thing. Whose translation is

10 it we have in this --

11 MR. NICE: It's an official one.

12 JUDGE BONOMY: An official one. Thank you.

13 MR. NICE: And, Your Honour, it's not for me to say but it may

14 well be that the -- it's a question of the context of the use of the

15 word.

16 JUDGE BONOMY: Oh, indeed. Indeed.

17 MR. NICE: And we'll see the word "liquidari" [phoen] or liquidate

18 used quite a lot. We're going to look at another one almost immediately,

19 and if the Chamber would be good enough now to go to tab 16 in the

20 developing story.

21 Q. And I turn to my observation to you, Mr. Jasovic, as a policeman

22 of experience. One of the problems about --

23 JUDGE KWON: Before moving on this, I -- because I note this is

24 new document. Could we ask the witness whether he can help with the

25 authenticity of this document.

1 MR. NICE: Which one, the previous one, Your Honour?

2 JUDGE KWON: No, tab 15.

3 MR. NICE: Tab 15 is a document produced by -- through -- unless

4 you don't want me to identify --

5 JUDGE KWON: Your index says it's new. Could you check it again?

6 MR. NICE: It says it's new. Then it -- my reading of the format

7 of it is that it actually comes from Stevanovic documents. But if it says

8 it's new, Your Honour is quite right to invite my query of it.

9 Q. Could you help His Honour, please, Mr. Jasovic? Do you recognise

10 this document? Do you recognise its form?

11 A. I haven't got the document in front of me.

12 JUDGE KWON: Show him the signature so he can recognise the

13 signature as well.

14 MR. NICE:

15 Q. Yes.

16 A. This is the head of the shift of the duty service. I'm sorry.

17 You mean the handwritten signature.

18 Q. Yes. That's what His Honour is interested in and so am I.

19 A. I could not recognise the signature, but I assume that this

20 information was sent further on to the state security sector in Urosevac,

21 because we forwarded such information to them as well. I cannot recognise

22 the signature. Probably it was the head of the department or his deputy

23 who received it. That's my assumption.

24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Excuse me. Who -- what tab is this?

25 I cannot seem to find it.

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The second page.

2 JUDGE ROBINSON: Let's get the tab number for Mr. Milosevic.

3 MR. NICE: It was tab 15, the document he was previously looking

4 at.

5 JUDGE ROBINSON: It's the same one you're looking at.

6 MR. NICE: The same one.

7 JUDGE KWON: The signature seems to be the one by this recipient,

8 not Janicevic, because it's dated 27th.

9 MR. NICE: Yes.

10 JUDGE KWON: This document is dated 17th, not 27th.

11 MR. NICE: First of all, I think -- I will just confirm with

12 Ms. Dicklich, but I am pretty sure that the index may be in error on this

13 occasion and that the document came from the collection of Stevanovic

14 documents, because if you come back to look at the cover page.

15 JUDGE KWON: Yes.

16 MR. NICE: It is probably familiar in format, and it just -- but

17 it's going to be a problem to track it down. But I don't that its

18 genuineness is challenged by the witness.

19 JUDGE KWON: Why don't you move on, then.

20 MR. NICE: I will. I'm grateful. Can we go on to tab 16.

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm not challenging this document.

22 MR. NICE:

23 Q. Can we go on to tab 16. The English can go on the overhead

24 projector with the witness having the original. And before we look at

25 this, Mr. Jasovic, one of the problems for criminals is that sometimes

1 their junior partners can't be relied on to keep their mouths shut and

2 sometimes they let things out, don't they?

3 MR. NICE: Your Honour, Ms. Dicklich says tab 384 of Stevanovic.

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's not right, Mr. Prosecutor.

5 MR. NICE:

6 Q. Because if we look at the end of this document, we'll see here

7 that this document comes from a corporal first class, Dragan -- is it

8 Cumpalevic or Cumpalevic?

9 A. Yes. This is the head of the shift of the duty service of the

10 police station in Urosevac who during his work from 00 until 2400 hours

11 he --

12 Q. Very well.

13 A. -- compiled a bulletin of everything that happened during his

14 shift, which is only natural, and the date is the 16th of January.

15 Q. [Previous translation continues] ...

16 A. And all the main events are there.

17 Q. -- and we'll just see a couple of things that I want your

18 assistance with. First of all, on the first page at the bottom of the

19 page, please, under paragraph 1, and on the first page for you on

20 paragraph 1 it observes - four lines up from the bottom of the page - that

21 12 people were brought into custody regarding interviews regarding

22 terrorism and were handed over to the officials at Urosevac police for

23 further work. So that's 12 people you had to interview. Could you tell

24 us, please, their names and point us to the records of their interviews?

25 12 people apparently interviewed by you or others in your police station.

1 A. Mr. Prosecutor, I do not know which persons were brought into

2 custody. And if they were brought into custody, apart from me, members of

3 the state security would have talked to them. If I knew their names, I

4 would tell you.

5 Q. I see. So there may be a whole additional separate body of

6 material from people who were interviewed who actually saw events at Racak

7 on the day. Is that what you're suggesting to us? And that haven't been

8 made available to us despite our requests as Prosecutors or through this

9 accused? Is that what you're suggesting?

10 A. Well, I don't know. I don't know what the persons involved are.

11 I haven't managed to find the paragraph that you read.

12 Q. [Previous translation continues] ...

13 A. I don't know which area they came from.

14 Q. The first paragraph and, if you look -- or it may be -- no, it's

15 the -- I beg your pardon. It's on the second -- it's on the top of the

16 second page, and it's at the end of that paragraph where we see about ten

17 lines down the figure 12, about 12 people were brought in from custody --

18 into custody. Do you see that?

19 A. It's a poor photocopy.

20 Q. Again, it was provided through Stevanovic. That's the best we can

21 do.

22 A. In order to conduct an interview with relation to terrorism, 12

23 persons were brought SUP Urosevac ODB Urosevac. I don't know. I don't

24 know.

25 Q. Very well. You don't know.

1 A. I don't know. Let's see. During the reporting day -- I don't

2 know where these persons are from.

3 Q. Let's go to the top of the second page, Mr. Nort, and stay where

4 you are in the text. And it says this: "Between 1100 and 1200 hours on

5 the 16th of January, contact was made between the representative of KDOM

6 (centre head Vel Dilbedson) and the chief of the Urosevac SUP."

7 So with that in mind, we'll just go down on the English a little

8 over halfway down the page, please, and we'll see what is said.

9 If we look just in the middle of the screen, and you'll find this

10 on the same page that you have been looking at but I'm afraid -- I'll read

11 slowly so that you can track it.

12 "They were also told that the KDOM in the person of Vel, they

13 were also told that at about 500 metres from the trenches a Browning 12.7

14 heavy machine-gun had been set up by the terrorists ..."

15 Now, if you look on your page, Mr. Jasovic, you will find that

16 about three-quarters of the way down. Have you found it?

17 A. You're asking me?

18 Q. Yes. Have you found it. On your page it's about

19 three-quarters --

20 A. Yes, yes, I've found it. Yes, yes. "About 500 metres away from

21 the trenches there was a heavy machine-gun, Browning 12.7 millimetres."

22 Q. "That had been set up by the terrorists who used this to fire

23 continuously at the police who were in action."

24 Now, because of the problems about the use of the word -- the

25 particular word and I know what the word is in the text, but you read for

1 us the next sentence, please. Just read it out and then it will be

2 interpreted.

3 A. "Who were opening fire all the time at the police force that was

4 advancing," if I read it properly. "After having searched the village,

5 the police forces in face of fierce resistance from the terrorists who

6 were dug in occupied their positions, during which process several of the

7 terrorists were liquidated while some of them withdrew in the direction of

8 Krsina hill. A small number of policemen" --

9 Q. Carry on reading for yourself. I'm happy for you to do it to the

10 end the paragraph.

11 A. "Several of the terrorists were liquidated. Some of them withdrew

12 in the direct of Krsina hill. A small number of policemen neutralised the

13 Browning fire and brought it to the centre of the village of Racak where

14 there was a team to carry out an on-site investigation led by

15 investigating judge of the Pristina district court Danica Marinkovic, and

16 the deputy district public prosecutor Ismet Sufta. They were also told

17 that the police did not pursue the terrorists further than the trenches

18 and communications trenches towards the woods, apart from one group of

19 policemen that was sent to eliminate the Browning fire. Having

20 accomplished their task, they returned to the village -- to the centre of

21 the village under heavy fire as they withdrew." It's almost illegible

22 here. "Due to this --

23 Q. [Previous translation continues] ...

24 A. -- "the on-site investigation team ..."

25 Q. That's enough for me. Again, as we saw in a document yesterday,

1 the report of the crime at this stage deals with events at the trenches.

2 It deals with the possibility of people going to the place where the

3 machine-gun was, but there is no suggestion of the terrorists being

4 pursued further than the trenches and communications trenches; correct?

5 A. Well, Mr. Prosecutor, I don't know. I was not on the site. I was

6 not there and I cannot --

7 Q. Please, Mr. Jasovic. Please listen to the question. Try and help

8 us. You have come here with I can't remember how many hundreds of

9 documents. On the basis of those documents some assistance it is said is

10 being given to the Judges. Here is some more documents from your police

11 station at the time.

12 My question to you was on the basis of -- well, this passage

13 written by the corporal does not reveal any question of the terrorists

14 going beyond the trenches apart from those who went to eliminate the

15 Browning fire. Simple question.

16 A. Well, it's a simple question. I can see what is written here. I

17 cannot say had I been on the site itself, but this bulletin was compiled

18 by the head of shift of the duty service. I cannot speak on his behalf

19 because I don't know. It's probably the way it's written here but I don't

20 know.

21 Q. [Previous translation continues] ...

22 A. I was not involved. I was not on the site itself.

23 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Nice, this is reflecting events that occurred

24 on the 16th, is it?

25 MR. NICE: No -- well -- no. This is -- the document reflects a

1 meeting on the 16th.

2 JUDGE BONOMY: Yes.

3 MR. NICE: And it's setting out, in fact, what the KDOM mission

4 was told.

5 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, is that right, in fact? I understood that to

6 be how you set it out, but I wonder if in fact that's correct.

7 MR. NICE: If Your Honour looks, say, ten lines down when Vel

8 asked what type of police action this was he was told that this was a

9 typical police action undertaken in order to capture a group of terrorists

10 and so on, and then it goes on into an extended narrative. But I think

11 Your Honour will be reassured by the reading of the beginning of the next

12 paragraph which is of significance and which indeed I'm going to ask the

13 witness to read to us. The next paragraph towards the foot of the page.

14 JUDGE BONOMY: Yes.

15 MR. NICE:

16 Q. Would you, Mr. Jasovic, please be good enough now to read the next

17 paragraph, just the first two sentences.

18 A. You mean the continuation of what I had read out a few moments

19 ago?

20 Q. Starting with the next paragraph that begins with -- begins with

21 the --

22 A. Could you tell me the first words?

23 Q. Two lines up from the bottom of the page. "Vel," I can't do the

24 next, I'm afraid, "was interested."

25 A. It's on the last page.

1 Q. No. It's at the foot -- right at the bottom of the second sheet

2 and it's two lines up and it begins "Vel." Two lines up from the bottom.

3 A. It says "Bel" here. That's what --

4 Q. I thought this was in Cyrillic.

5 A. That's why I was confused.

6 Q. But it's in Cyrillic. Don't you read Cyrillic?

7 A. I know, but this photocopy is so poor that the letter looks like

8 B rather than V. That's why I'm telling you that.

9 Q. Please read it for us.

10 A. "Vel was interested solely in who had planned the police action,

11 what equipment was used to carry out the action, whether or not there had

12 been policemen from elsewhere and why the army took part in the action.

13 He was told that the police planned the action and that it was police

14 forces alone, not the army, that took part in the action. When he

15 insisted on the name of the person who led the action, he was told that

16 this was not the subject of this conversation. When we were asked if we

17 were working independently or on someone's orders, the reply was given

18 that everything was done pursuant to the legal obligations and regulations

19 that derive from the constitution in order to protect citizen's lives and

20 property. When a comment was" --

21 Q. You see, your comparatively junior colleague, corporal -- is it

22 Cumpalevic or Cumpalevic?

23 A. Cumpalevic.

24 Q. Your fairly junior colleague Corporal Cumpalevic in the vernacular

25 let's the cat out of the bag, reveals the truth, because he explains that

1 Vel wanted to know about the army, but he was told, not the truth, he was

2 told that the police planned the action and that it was the police forces

3 alone and not the army that took part in the action. Because this is a

4 report, isn't it? This is a bulletin of what's happened.

5 A. This is the daily bulletin of what happened on the 16th of

6 January, 1999, during his shift, yes.

7 Q. Why -- can you help us --

8 A. It's a report on all events and incidents, yes.

9 Q. Again, same question. Why was it necessary for someone in your

10 general area of interest, coming from on the -- whatever day it was, why

11 was it necessary for this man to lie about the involvement of the army to

12 the international community?

13 A. Which man? Who is lying? What are you saying?

14 Q. Well, Cumpalevic --

15 A. I didn't understand.

16 Q. -- is recording that in this interview with KDOM, Vel, the man

17 from KDOM, was extremely interested in knowing what part the army took,

18 and he was told that it was the police forces alone and not the army that

19 took part in the action. Why did he do that? Can you help us?

20 A. Mr. Prosecutor, I don't know. I don't know whether this Vel or

21 Bel, whether he talked to the head of the shift of the duty service.

22 Possibly he talked to one the superior officers and then the superior

23 officer told the head of shift of the duty service to record that.

24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Robinson.

25 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic, yes.

1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Let us not mystify anything. It is

2 quite clear from the text that this corporal, first class corporal, first

3 class corporal, junior corporal, put in this --

4 MR. NICE: [Previous translation continues] ...

5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] -- in this report of his - this is

6 very relevant - a note about the conversation that was held between the

7 chief of the secretariat of Urosevac with Bel. That is why --

8 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic, as with many of the points that

9 you raise, these are matters you can take up in re-examination. It

10 doesn't render the question impermissible. You can take it up in

11 re-examination and make your point there.

12 MR. NICE: Right.

13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I understand what you're saying,

14 Mr. Robinson. But I would like to say that the question is wrong. There

15 was no conversation between this sergeant first class and Vel. The

16 sergeant first class recorded a conversation that was conducted by the

17 head of the secretariat with Vel. That is why he says what Vel asked and

18 what was -- he was told. He is just the note-taker.

19 JUDGE ROBINSON: [Previous translation continues] ...

20 MR. NICE: That's what I've been suggesting. I hope if I haven't

21 it's clear from the document.

22 Q. Now, let's move on and back to the statements that you've taken

23 and that you say are valid, properly taken statements.

24 Because Your Honours will find if you if you use the Racak

25 documents at all that I've had integrated into them the various statements

1 taken by this witness at the appropriate place in the chronology, but

2 since I think this is the last time I need refer to the Racak documents,

3 it may be helpful if we, although you can find this statement at tab 18 in

4 the Racak documents, if we move back now to the chart and to binder 1 of

5 the cross-examination materials, and the Chamber again may find the chart

6 of assistance. And the Chamber will be possibly assisted by just casting

7 an eye on page 3 of the chart in light of the accused answers about

8 witnesses he saw in order to observe that immediately after the horizontal

9 black line of Racak statements were allegedly taken in the manner

10 described, two on the 16th, one on the 17th, and then over the page, 20th

11 and 23rd, at least statements of relevance. And it is one to those that

12 I'm now going to take you. It's the one on the 17th of Muhadin

13 Dzeljadini, and we can find him at 1.45 in volume 1 of the materials. And

14 I'd like the witness to have this document with him.

15 So it's this binder of materials, binder 1. It's tab 2, and

16 within tab 2 it is 1.45.

17 Can we take the chart off the page -- off the overhead projector.

18 The right-hand column maybe need not be revealed, but ...

19 Sorry, if I said tab 2, wrong. Tab 5, and within tab 5, tab 1.45.

20 I'm very sorry.

21 If you'd like to look at the very back of this tab, you'll find

22 there it is, the statement. And if we could put the English on the

23 overhead projector.

24 I'd be grateful, please, for your careful and considered

25 explanation for how this statement came to be given. Can you help me?

1 A. Are you asking me, Mr. Prosecutor?

2 Q. I am. I want your careful and considered explanation for how this

3 statement was given.

4 A. The statement was taken on the 17th of January, 1999 from

5 Dzeljadini Muhadin, from the village of Racak, municipality of Stimlje. I

6 don't know whether the person was brought into custody or not, but I see

7 that he was interviewed, that the said person was interviewed.

8 In the statement, he mentions where the KLA staff is, and he even

9 mentioned Mustafa Mehmet, 60 years old, and he says: "A month ago I saw

10 him in Racak with an automatic rifle." And I personally said that it is a

11 shame for an old man to be part of the KLA, and he started cursing me and

12 told me to go away. And also he says: "I can further state that the

13 daughter of Mehmet Mustafa is married to Sadik Mujota's son from the

14 village of Malopoljce." And then he says: "During armed operations on

15 the 15th of January, 1999, the following KLA members were killed in the

16 yard of the KLA substaff: Namely Sadik Mujota with his daughter whose

17 name I cannot -- I do not know but who was in the KLA together with her

18 father. They both live in the village of Malopoljce."

19 "Shaqa Shaqiri from the village of Racak in a camouflage uniform

20 with KLA insignia.

21 "Enver Rashiti, from the village of Racak, a member of the KLA

22 in the village of Laniste."

23 Q. We'll come back to the last names in a second. But just pausing

24 at Shaqa Shaqiri, we have some ambiguity -- there is some ambiguity so far

25 as that name is concerned. Do you know this person by any other name?

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1 Could it be Shakija Berisha [phoen]? Could it be Suceri Ismajli Sula? Do

2 you know?

3 A. No, Prosecutor. Let me tell you. You see, when interviewees

4 came, they would give names of this or that kind, because one family can

5 have two or even three surnames. Shaqiri Shaqa, for example, Kadri Syla

6 also appeared as Ismajl Sula. As for Shaqiri Shaqa, he also appeared with

7 different names, but I can't remember now looking at the statements.

8 Q. Well, I gave you two possible alternatives. I'll ask you to

9 consider them again. Shakija Berisha or Suceri Ismajli Sula. Is it

10 either of those names that was this man's other name?

11 A. Shyqeri Sula is one name, and I think there's another name and

12 surname of Shaqiri Shaqa. That's another one.

13 Q. Are you saying that Shyqeri Sula is not this man?

14 A. No.

15 Q. Very well. Let's go on then with the rest of the names. Enver

16 Rashiti. Go on.

17 A. Rashiti. Do you want me to read?

18 Q. Yes. Go on.

19 A. From Racak who was in the KLA in the village of Laniste, Stimlje

20 municipality. Ismajli Kadri, from the village of Racak. Lufti Bilalli,

21 son of Hasan, from the village of Racak, in charge of KLA logistics.

22 Zymberi Sherif Nijazi, from the village of Racak, also in charge of KLA

23 logistics. An individual whose first and last name I cannot recall,

24 except he is from the Kacanik municipality, a member of the KLA, was

25 killed while he was in a forest about 200 metres away on guard from KLA

1 substaff in the village of Racak. The commander of the substaff for the

2 village of Racak, Afet Bilalli, son of Hasan, was seriously wounded and

3 taken to an unknown place for medical treatment.

4 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... happy to go through the rest

5 of it but that will do.

6 Now, this person Muhadin Dzeljadini, how did he come - try and

7 help us - with the assertion that these one, two, three, four, five, six

8 men were KLA members and were killed in the yard of the KLA substaff?

9 A. Muhadin Dzeljadini, that he provided the names of the individuals

10 who were killed, members of the KLA, he learnt about the said persons

11 because he lived in the village of Racak, Stimlje municipality, and I

12 cannot see that they were killed in a house here. It just says during

13 armed conflict on the 15th of January, 1999, in the yard of the substaff,

14 the following KLA members were killed.

15 Q. Yes. It's quite detailed. And you see, we've been looking for an

16 eyewitness, but don't let me put words into your mouth, think and give a

17 considered answer, how was it that this person gives what appears to be an

18 account of the location and circumstances of killing of six members of the

19 KLA?

20 A. He is putting forward, as he gave his statement, that on that day

21 he was on the spot.

22 Q. So let's -- and again please don't fall into any unintended trap

23 of saying what you think I want you to say. I want you to take your time.

24 Are you saying, then, that this man had firsthand knowledge and gave you a

25 firsthand account of what he'd seen?

1 A. Here I couldn't be specific and give you an answer because it says

2 here during the armed conflicts on the 15th of January, 1999, in the yard

3 of the KLA substaff the following persons were killed, and he states the

4 names of KLA members.

5 Now, it is my assumption that he was on the spot, but I can't

6 remember, and here in this paragraph it's actually not explained, or he

7 heard about it from someone.

8 Q. You see, the alternative, which is what this man says in his

9 statement, is that he was taken to a room which he says was 51, but that's

10 maybe the way he read it, where you were in charge. He told the men that

11 on the 16th he was in Racak and had helped move bodies to the mosque, that

12 he'd seen 45 bodies including one that was decapitated and that when he

13 told you about the decapitated body he got beaten with a stick. Did that

14 happen?

15 A. That's not true, Mr. Prosecutor. And I'm not in office 51 as he

16 says in that statement of yours. So how could he say 45 when there were

17 40 in the mosque?

18 Q. I see. And then he says, the next paragraph, that he went to a

19 smaller room. Then you sent him to the basement where he was placed in a

20 room. There were other men present. And later on in the basement efforts

21 were made to make him accept that somebody named Sadik Mujota had a rocket

22 launcher. Do you remember anything about that?

23 A. I do not remember. If he did come to talk to me, there's no logic

24 that I would tell the policemen to put him in the basement. After the

25 interview was conducted, he was released.

1 Q. He explains that after the interview or the encounter he was given

2 a document to sign which he signed at least because of the blood he saw in

3 the basement of Ferizaj and that he didn't sign it voluntarily and that

4 it's not accurate. See? He says that it's inaccurate, this statement, in

5 a couple of particulars. In particular, he says that Nijazi Zymberi, we

6 look at him, that's the last of the names, was not a member of the KLA. I

7 says he didn't know if Lufti Bilalli was a member of the KLA. You see?

8 He confirmed that Bajram Mehmeti, who we haven't focused on, and Mehmet

9 Mustafa were members of the KLA. So he says the statement's inaccurate.

10 Now, did you give this man a statement to sign that you wrote out?

11 A. The statement is correct. Everything he said was put into the

12 statement. The statement was read back to him, and I can confirm the

13 authenticity of this statement because next to me there was Momcilo

14 Sparavalo and Amanovic Darko as I can see. And Dzeljadini Muhadin signed

15 the statement of his own free will.

16 Now, I understand the man, that he doesn't want to confirm the

17 authenticity of his statement. That's quite normal because he'd have

18 problems if he were to do so.

19 Q. One of the problems for criminals who do things like -- and it's

20 criminal to make up a statement and attribute it to someone else,

21 seriously criminal, is that they can't necessarily know what other

22 evidence exists at the time they present a forged document like this,

23 Mr. Jasovic, and this is part of your undoing, I'm going to suggest to

24 you, because let's look at the list of names.

25 Sadik Mujota. Was he in the KLA? Yes, he was. But he didn't die

1 in the yard of the KLA substaff.

2 Shaqa Shaqiri. We don't know the name. It's ambiguous. We'll

3 move on.

4 Enver Rashiti. Yes, he was a member of the KLA, but he died at

5 the bunker.

6 Kadri Ismajli. Yes, he was a member of the KLA, and he was killed

7 near the bunker at not at all at the ravine.

8 Now, perhaps you'd be good enough to look with me, Mr. Nort, at

9 two photographs from Exhibit 156, tab 7. First this one. Overhead

10 projector, please. And then this one, Mr. Nort. Leave that one on the

11 overhead projector and come to this one, please, Mr. Nort.

12 You see, while you were preparing this statement on the 17th of

13 January, you may not have known this, but photographs have been taken of

14 the ravine and it's been possible to connect the names of the people there

15 with the bodies that are shown, and far from dying anywhere near the KLA

16 substaff, Lufti Bilalli died in the ravine.

17 Next picture, please, Mr. Nort.

18 And Zymberi also died -- Nijazi Zymberi also died at the ravine.

19 How can you explain, then, please, this voluntarily statement

20 containing these two factual errors?

21 A. Mr. Prosecutor, on the basis of the photograph, I don't know the

22 place this person was killed at, on the basis of this picture. I stand by

23 the statement that was voluntarily given to me by the individual whom I

24 interviewed. He presented those facts to me.

25 JUDGE ROBINSON: So you don't agree, then, that they died in the

1 ravine, these people?

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I stand by the statement. What I

3 can say is that Dzeljadini, as Muhadin Dzeljadini said. So I stand by

4 that statement, what it says there. I and my colleagues do.

5 Q. Are you speaking for your colleagues here today or just for

6 yourself?

7 A. I'm speaking in my own name here today, but I am conscious and

8 guarantee that my colleagues will confirm that, because there was no use

9 of force here at all or coercion, duress, statement given under duress or

10 anything like that vis-a-vis this person.

11 JUDGE ROBINSON: Do you recognise any of the bodies as -- who was

12 the first one, Mr. Nice, Lufti ...

13 MR. NICE: Lufti Bilalli.

14 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. Can you show him Lufti Bilalli's body.

15 MR. NICE: Yes.

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know Lufti Bilalli. I

17 never --

18 JUDGE ROBINSON: Just a minute.

19 [Trial Chamber confers]

20 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Nice.

21 JUDGE BONOMY: Are you moving to something else, Mr. Nice?

22 MR. NICE: Yes, I am.

23 JUDGE BONOMY: Yes.

24 MR. NICE: Well, I've got to ask him a couple more questions about

25 these photographs but that's all.

1 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Jasovic, the statement that we've been looking

2 at, is that a -- is it fair to describe that as typical of the statements

3 that you took in connection with your work in general in relation to

4 terrorist activities?

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This statement from this individual,

6 I think it is an authentic statement. Now, as far as the picture goes --

7 JUDGE BONOMY: No, no, no. I'm not asking you whether it's

8 authentic. I'm asking you whether it's typical, whether this is just a

9 good example of the sort of statement you took in the course of your work

10 in relation to terrorist activities.

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I took statements as I described, as

12 I said, on the basis of the Criminal Code in the form prescribed.

13 JUDGE BONOMY: That's -- I'm about to ask you about that, but I

14 just want to know that this is a fairly representative example of the

15 statements you took, this particular one.

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] For the most part the statements

17 were taken in identical fashion, in the same way.

18 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you. Now, what was the purpose of taking

19 this statement?

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] How do you mean? Could you clarify

21 what do you mean? How do you mean?

22 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, I don't want to put words into your mouth. I

23 want your answer. You see, police officers may be taking statements for

24 the purpose of instituting court proceedings or reporting the matter to an

25 examining magistrate or it could be for other purposes. Now, what was

1 your purpose for taking this statement?

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This statement was not taken for the

3 purpose of this trial but after the event in the village of Racak, which

4 is quite normal, at the request of the public prosecutor an interview was

5 conducted with a number of individuals who could provide the necessary

6 information linked to the event in the village of Racak, specifically the

7 activity, movement, numbers, weapons of KLA members.

8 JUDGE BONOMY: But a number of people are referred to in this

9 document who were not killed at Racak.

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is a statement given

11 voluntarily by Muhadin Dzeljadini. He gave it voluntarily of his own free

12 will, and he specified the place where the said persons were killed.

13 JUDGE BONOMY: Yes. But if you go over the page to the end of

14 the -- towards the end of the statement, is there not reference there in

15 the second last paragraph to people who were not killed at Racak?

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You mean here where it says "a month

17 ago in the village of Racak"?

18 JUDGE BONOMY: Yes.

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] "A month ago in the village of

20 Racak, near a place called Cesta, two members of the KLA were injured or

21 wounded, Mehmet Agushi, and a person from Kacanik."

22 On the basis of the statement, I can say that we have -- that in

23 the KLA in the village of Racak there was an individual from Kacanik, but

24 I'm not sure, although I think that that said individual was killed in a

25 conflict, and I think his name, I am not quite certain, if I were to look

1 at the material I would know, I think his name was Xheman Beqiri [phoen]

2 or Beqiri Xhemali [phoen] or one -- or a similar name, I'm not quite

3 certain of the first and last name of the man.

4 And the place called Cesta is above the old people's home up above

5 Stimlje. It is a place belonging to the village of Racak in actual fact.

6 JUDGE BONOMY: So if you go to the earlier paragraph at the top of

7 the page was everyone there killed in Racak? The paragraph immediately

8 before that. One was everyone there killed in Racak?

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You mean the first paragraph above

10 all the names. Sadik Mujota, et cetera, is that what you're referring to?

11 JUDGE BONOMY: Yes. It includes Bajram Mehmeti, Mehmet Agushi.

12 What was their fate?

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I haven't found the paragraph. I'm

14 sorry.

15 JUDGE BONOMY: Immediately before the part that we were looking at

16 a moment ago.

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As for Mujota Sadik, he was

18 killed --

19 JUDGE BONOMY: No. Just go above that you'll see a reference to

20 Idriz and Bajram Mehmeti.

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I see, the brothers, Idriz and

22 Bajram Mehmeti, and Mehmet Agushi.

23 JUDGE BONOMY: Were they killed in Racak?

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As for Bajram, I don't have any

25 information about him. However, for Idriz think that it does appear in

1 one of the statements but I'm not quite sure. And as for Mehmet Agushi, I

2 have no information that he was killed.

3 JUDGE BONOMY: What, then, did you -- what did you do with this

4 statement once you had taken it?

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] How do you mean, what did I --

6 JUDGE BONOMY: It's a simple question.

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The statement. Well, on the basis

8 of the statement, we continued our work, operationally speaking, with

9 relation to Racak. And with the statement, well, the statement was passed

10 on to the chief of the Secretariat of the Interior, the state security

11 sector, and the chief decided what he was going to do with it, whether he

12 was going to send it on to the MUP staff for Kosovo and Metohija in

13 Pristina.

14 JUDGE BONOMY: You see, it's so unclear about -- in detailed

15 matters. It doesn't tell us whether the person giving the statement saw

16 him -- personally saw any of these events. So that's why I'm asking you

17 what the purpose of the statement was.

18 You can take statements in different ways depending upon the

19 purpose for which you take them. Now, what was the purpose of this

20 statement? It wasn't for criminal prosecution, it would appear. What was

21 its purpose?

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The purpose here, well, the said

23 individual wasn't a member of the KLA. The purpose of the statement was

24 linked to the event in the village of Racak.

25 JUDGE BONOMY: Is that the best you can do?

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Linked to the events. Linked to the

2 staffs. Probably linked to how come if he was on the spot, how the event

3 took place, linked to arms, weapons, the numerical state, how many. I

4 can't remember all the details now.

5 JUDGE BONOMY: It wasn't for the great Serbian inquiry into Racak

6 either. What was the purpose of taking the statement? If you can't

7 answer, then I will trouble you no more.

8 MR. NICE: Before we break, Your Honour, just ask two

9 supplemental --

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The purpose of the statement, Your

11 Honour, the purpose of the statement -- because before the event and after

12 the event or before the event we knew that a KLA staff was set -- had been

13 set up in the village of Racak. The purpose of the statement was, and

14 that is -- this is normal, linked to the activities and movements of the

15 KLA members, their numerical strength, their weapons. It was linked to

16 the events in Racak, whether he knows anything, whether they were on the

17 spot or not.

18 Now, here, on the basis of this sentence I cannot state a view as

19 to whether he was there or whether he had heard about it, that on the 15th

20 of January, 1999 these persons were killed, the persons listed below were

21 killed and so forth.

22 JUDGE BONOMY: You see, that makes it sound as if it was for

23 intelligence purposes.

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, at the request -- at the

25 request of the public prosecutor, and that's quite normal. Interviews are

1 conducted with individuals who can provide the necessary information about

2 the events in Racak.

3 JUDGE BONOMY: Are you now telling me this was done at the request

4 of the public prosecutor?

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Probably. At the request of the

6 public prosecutor.

7 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, yes or no. Surely you must know whether this

8 was taken at the request of the public prosecutor or not.

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We have -- Your Honour, it's like

10 this. We have the right according to the Criminal Code if an event took

11 place, happened, and if proceedings are under way to apprehend the

12 perpetrators, we have the right to gather information and intelligence

13 from citizens able to provide us with relevant information about the event

14 concerned.

15 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

16 MR. NICE: I know the time, but may I ask a couple of questions

17 before I complete with this particular statement.

18 Q. And following on from His Honour's question, would you be good

19 enough to take the schedule and, Mr. Nort, try and not to display the

20 right-hand column in case there's anything sensitive there. But would you

21 show, please, page 3 and the foot of the page where we see the three

22 statements that you took on the 16th and 17th of January. And just to

23 remind you because you haven't had much time to familiar -- put it on the

24 overhead projector.

25 This is a grid or a table that shows which of your interlocutors

1 is supposed to have identified which of the people killed in Racak. Foot

2 of the page, please, last three lines. Thank you. Whole page if we can

3 get it apart from the right-hand column. Whole page, please, if video

4 booth would help us. Thank you. Focus out, please. No, out. Thank you.

5 More, more, more, more, more. That's fine.

6 The purpose of these so-called statements, Mr. Jasovic, was to try

7 and provide some justification, however slight, for killing people in

8 Racak, and we see that as early as the 16th you bring with you a statement

9 from a 16-year-old identifying 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10. A very

10 successful, as they would say for the shooting of game, bag, wasn't it, to

11 get on the 16th evidence that all those people who died were members of

12 the KLA?

13 A. It's not true, Mr. Prosecutor, and I can say here that before the

14 event in the village of Racak, from the list of persons killed we had 14

15 persons. We learnt that they were members of the KLA, whereas for 16

16 individuals we learnt post festum.

17 Q. You've got the statistics at your fingertips, but before I finish

18 with that proposition, I'd just like you to confirm because I'm afraid I

19 will have to question you a little after the break, does it remain your

20 evidence --

21 A. No problem.

22 Q. Does it remain your evidence, Mr. Jasovic, that you simply asked

23 people who were the members of the KLA and they gave you the names, or did

24 you press them in some way into naming people who had suffered in Racak?

25 Tell us.

1 A. I -- the interviewed persons, I asked them straight away what was

2 new in the place they lived in, and in our conversation he would

3 say, "Well, armed members of the KLA turned up," and I would follow on

4 from there. And that was normal for me to follow on to what he said and

5 say, "Do you know the names of the KLA members? Where are they? What are

6 they doing," that kind of thing. So that's the kind of interview I

7 conducted.

8 Q. Your questions should -- your questioning should produce from the

9 witnesses all the names of known KLA people, not restricted, for example,

10 to those who simply happened to have suffered death at Racak. Yes?

11 A. In the interview, the interviewee, up until the 15th of January,

12 until the event happened in the village of Racak, quite normally they

13 would provide the names of the KLA members. After the event in the

14 village of Racak, and this is quite normal, in our conversation he gave me

15 the names of the KLA members who were killed in the clash between the

16 police and the Albanian terrorists of the KLA.

17 Q. And dealing with this particular witness statement, so-called, I'm

18 going to suggest to you there's no reason for you to know this, that when

19 this man, Muhadin Dzeljadini, was seen by the investigators from this

20 Tribunal, he wasn't shown any photographs of people in the ravine or

21 anything of that sort, and he challenged, as members of the KLA, Bajram

22 Mehmeti and Nijazi Zymberi and expressed ignorance as to the position of

23 Lufti Bilalli. We find that those two certainly didn't die where he is

24 said to have said they died. That's because you made that statement up

25 and attributed it to him, isn't it?

1 A. That's just not true, Mr. Prosecutor. I stand by the statement

2 ability authenticity of that statement. I can confirm that, because the

3 statement was signed by the interviewee, the person interviewed, and I

4 know about Mr. Sparavalo there. So I didn't think that up. I would have

5 no reason to invent that.

6 JUDGE ROBINSON: We will take a 20-minute break.

7 --- Recess taken at 12.31 p.m.

8 --- On resuming at 12.53 p.m.

9 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Nice.

10 MR. NICE:

11 Q. Mr. Jasovic, other evidence or material coming from the Serb side

12 suggests that it was thought that Racak was occupied on the 15th by KLA

13 members and by nobody but KLA members. Was that your understanding?

14 A. Members of the KLA were in Racak.

15 Q. I hope my question was clear. The understanding, according to

16 people like Goran Radosavljevic in his interviews, both with the

17 television company and indeed with us, because he's still alive, and other

18 sources suggest that the belief of those mounting this operation was that

19 there was only KLA in the village. Did you understand it to be the case

20 that there were only KLA in the village when the attack was started?

21 A. Mr. Prosecutor, on the basis of the statements that I have, and I

22 think that I have already said this, in the village of Racak, well, I

23 don't know. I looked at a statement at the end of December. There were

24 ten or 15 members -- families, rather, left in the village of Racak. The

25 rest moved out of that village and moved to other villages where it was

1 peaceful and where there were no clashes between members of the police and

2 the Albanian KLA terrorists.

3 Q. On the 15th, help us, is it your understanding that there were

4 civilians living there, or was it your understanding that it was only the

5 KLA living there?

6 A. Again I'm telling you, perhaps there were ten to 15 households

7 there. I'm talking on the basis of statements, on the basis of documents.

8 Q. That would be extremely important, wouldn't it, to use care and

9 proportionate force in mounting an operation to arrest people who were

10 suspected of killing one policeman?

11 A. I don't know what happened on the spot, and I cannot give any

12 answers with regard to the actual site.

13 Q. If an operation is mounted in an area where it is known that there

14 are civilian families and maybe some members of the KLA, it is extremely

15 important to use proportionate force against the suspected KLA for fear of

16 killing innocent civilians. Simple proposition. Do you agree with me?

17 A. I could not fully agree with everything. The police went out with

18 the objective of finding and arresting the perpetrators from the KLA.

19 Q. Mr. Jasovic, you had secondary education. You've been a policeman

20 for how many years? 20 years or something. Did you not understand my

21 question?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Did you understand my question or not?

24 A. Well, could you explain it to me, the question?

25 Q. Let me ask you this: Do police owe any duty of care to innocent

1 civilians who may cross their paths when they are investigating crime?

2 A. Well, it's only natural. Civilians are one thing, and members of

3 the KLA are another thing.

4 Q. So that on this operation, where you yourself know that there were

5 families in residence in Racak, it was essential that care was used and

6 only proportionate force was used against the people believed to be KLA;

7 correct?

8 A. You see, it is only natural that one should take good care of

9 civilians.

10 Q. Can you explain then, first of all, in these circumstances why on

11 the evidence civilians who escape -- male civilians who weren't killed

12 were those who escaped? They weren't escorted out by the police or the

13 army. They weren't told they could go. They had to escape. With

14 civilians resident, can you explain that to the Court?

15 A. Well, I wouldn't know.

16 Q. Wouldn't you?

17 A. I don't know whether they escaped or not because I was not there.

18 I was not on the spot.

19 Q. Hadn't you investigated it, Mr. Jasovic?

20 A. I conducted interviews about everything, but I did not get to such

21 information with the persons who were providing me with information.

22 Q. You knew, of course, that some men had escaped, didn't you?

23 A. I didn't know.

24 Q. Didn't you?

25 A. Because I didn't know -- because at that time I didn't know.

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1 Q. An investigation into KLA at the time of Racak would presumably

2 have a greater interest in those survivors who were still terrorists than

3 in those people who had died who were terrorists, wouldn't it? If it was

4 a proper inquiry, you'd be interested in knowing which terrorists were

5 still around. Yes or no?

6 A. Well, it is only natural that during the investigation we geared

7 our operational work throughout the investigation towards the events in

8 Racak.

9 Q. Again, if my question was too complicated, I'll make it simpler.

10 One, just yes or no, was this a general win investigation into terrorism?

11 Yes or no?

12 A. There was a genuine investigation into terrorism in order to

13 establish the truth.

14 Q. Two, did you have an interest in knowing who out of the people

15 still alive in the Racak area were terrorists or members of the KLA? Yes

16 or no?

17 A. Yes. I was always keen on finding out.

18 Q. I'd now like you to look at a few photographs. We'll see what

19 your state of knowledge is. First of all -- these are all from

20 Exhibit 156, tab 7. Have a look at that.

21 And if the -- if Mr. Nort could take the plan that's there, we

22 could use that as well. The large plan.

23 You can use whichever you find convenient, Mr. Jasovic. Now,

24 here's an aerial photograph, and the plan's going to come and be placed, I

25 hope, beside you so we can look at it if necessary.

1 That one, please.

2 Take your time. The legend is in English, but you can see names.

3 And you can see something called Sadik Osmani's house. Do you see that?

4 A. Yes, I can see that.

5 Q. Then you see something to the right of that which is described as

6 crime location 3, scene 7, with a pointer. Do you see that?

7 A. Yes, I see that.

8 Q. Looking at the map and with your knowledge of Racak, can you --

9 can you relate the photograph to your knowledge of Racak on the ground?

10 Can you understand the photograph?

11 A. I understand. I see the village of Racak, and you told me that

12 this was Sadik Osmani's house.

13 Q. Very well. Are you aware that at the point which happens to be

14 described as crime location 3, scene 7, was somebody called Drita Emini's

15 house?

16 A. I could not be aware of that. How could I be aware of that? I

17 don't know.

18 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... look at another photograph

19 which -- if we look at that photograph, you'll see that a road comes down

20 on the plan and then bears round to its right but on the plan or the

21 photograph turns slightly to the left, passes a couple of houses and then

22 turns to the left.

23 So we'll now look at the next picture, please. These are all

24 available for the Court. They all come from the bundle.

25 So that's the bit of road that bears -- comes down and turns left.

1 And I'm just going to explain to you a couple of things about the evidence

2 and then I'm going to ask you a question.

3 People from Drita Emini's house, men and women, were taken out,

4 separated. The women were put in the house this side of the little

5 junction. The men, badly treated by the police, were eventually

6 instructed to leave this area and go somewhere else. That's the state of

7 the evidence. Do you understand?

8 A. Yes, I understand what you have said to me.

9 Q. They were instructed to go to Bebush Hill, which is the ravine

10 where 20-odd bodies were found. But on the evidence, as they came down

11 this road, they were able, because they weren't sufficiently pursued by

12 the police, to separate into different places and escape.

13 Can we look at the next picture, please. This picture from the

14 same exhibit shows the other house we were looking at, Sadik Osmani's

15 house. You see? Which is not very far away. They would have come to

16 this area, the men from Drita Emini's house, and they would have found

17 themselves in this area, and then we see in red something that's the route

18 up to the ravine, the ravine where everybody, 20 people, were found dead.

19 All right? That's what the evidence shows. The men went from Sadik

20 Osmani's house and they went up to the ravine and they were killed. All

21 right?

22 Do you understand what I'm explaining to you?

23 A. Well, I understand what you're explaining to me, and I see this.

24 Q. Very well. Now, let's have a look at this and I'll distribute

25 this to everyone.

1 We've prepared a couple of visual aids in two sizes. The video

2 booth will have to come out of focus a little to get the whole thing in,

3 if it can. Not out of focus, zoom out or whatever the phrase is.

4 Right. We've gone back to that first picture, you see. Look

5 again, crime location, 3, scene 7. Men compelled by the police to come

6 down the road on instructions to go towards Sadik Osmani's house where

7 they would have gone on the route to the hill where people were killed.

8 But those men escaped. The men from Sadik Osmani's house were driven up

9 to the ravine and they were killed. That's what the evidence suggests.

10 I now want your help with the following. Would you look, please,

11 at the left-hand list. Do you see the list on the left? Do you see the

12 list on the left?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. These are the names of the people who went from Sadik Osmani's

15 house, Ragip Bajrami, Lufti Bilalli, Bujar Hajrizi, and so on. Numbers 1

16 to 22. Do you see the names?

17 A. I see the names.

18 Q. Yes. Those are the men who on the evidence went up to the ravine

19 and were killed. All right?

20 Now, would you look to the list on -- on the right. This list is

21 the list of the people who were in the basement with Drita Emini in her

22 house who were driven out and instructed to go to the hill, the same hill

23 where the other men were killed. Rama Beqa, Hamdi Beqa, Ekrem Hajrizi,

24 and so on. 34 names but they all escaped. Understand? Those are the

25 names of the men who escaped.

1 A. Who escaped. I understand.

2 Q. Let's go to the left-hand list again. Underneath the first 22

3 names there are five other names. Of the men driven up to the ravine from

4 Sadik Osmani's house, five survived and indeed two have given evidence at

5 this Court. You see? Five names: Ali Agushi, Bilall Avdiu, Imer Imeri,

6 Nesret Shabani, and Rame Shabani. Okay? Do you understand this summary

7 of the evidence?

8 A. Well, I cannot understand the summary of the evidence because I

9 was not on site.

10 Q. What I want your help with since you're the person taking the

11 witness statements is this: If you now look at these lists, you'll see

12 that some of the names have been shaded in green and other names have been

13 left unshaded. See the difference?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Now, you have come to this court. First you came with a very

16 large volume of materials in a binder, and we looked at it on the last

17 occasion and on this occasion. You then brought another bundle of

18 material, untranslated. Look, over here.

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Look. Please look at me. This is what you brought. More

21 statements --

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. -- containing more names. We have gone through those statements

24 to find out who it is who is named as KLA and who it is who you have never

25 named as KLA.

1 A. I cannot remember just off-the-cuff.

2 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... work for you. Unless we've

3 made an error in our reading of these statements, and it's always

4 possible, of the 34 people who escaped from Drita Emini's house, only one,

5 number 14, has been named as a member of the KLA.

6 If we turn to the left-hand list. Of those who died, every one

7 has been named in a statement allegedly produced voluntarily by you as a

8 member of the KLA. Every one but three. Every one but three. We can see

9 numbers --

10 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Nice, Mr. Milosevic has a point.

11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I have the impression that the

12 witness does not understand at all what Mr. Nice is asking him. It was

13 not explained to him that there is a legend down there, that green is --

14 MR. NICE: I'm always concerned that when the accused intervenes

15 it's probably with a purpose. Can I continue with the question, please.

16 JUDGE ROBINSON: Well, let me assure the witness. Mr. Jasovic, if

17 you do not understand anything, you must say so.

18 MR. NICE:

19 Q. If we look at the first left-hand list with the 22 names, all -

20 just follow the names down - all but numbers 9, Ahmet Jakupi, 12 Xheladin

21 Jakupi, and 19 Sukri Saliu, are said in statements produced by you to be

22 members of the KLA. And Your Honours you will see we have the statements

23 identifying where they are to be found.

24 Now, if he look at the bottom of that list, of the five men who

25 happened to be fortunate enough to escape, only one, Rame Shabani has been

1 the subject of any suggestion that he was a member of the KLA and the

2 other four are never mentioned in your statements.

3 Can you explain, please, how it is that it's only the subject of

4 two exceptions it's only the survivors -- it's only the dead who are

5 identified as KLA and that the survivors are not? Can you explain that to

6 us?

7 A. Mr. Prosecutor, I stand by my statements. Persons who were

8 interviewed voluntarily mentioned these persons in their statements.

9 There are also Official Notes and there is information. Official Notes

10 about conducted interviews with informers, friendly connections, or

11 acquaintances.

12 Q. Mr. Jasovic --

13 A. These persons are not only contained in the statements.

14 Q. You're bound to say that, but I want your help with a logical

15 problem. Let me suggest to you this as I've suggested before. These

16 statements were produced for another purpose entirely. They were produced

17 to create a record of alleged KLA membership for certain purposes, and

18 after Racak, the purpose was to cover your tracks and to cover the

19 illegality and the known illegality of this attack. That's why these

20 statements were prepared. Am I not right?

21 A. You are not right and it's not true. Because in addition to the

22 statements, there are Official Notes and there is information.

23 Q. Nothing was ever done with these statements. Nobody was ever

24 prosecuted, charged. There's no investigative reports, nothing. The

25 statements were simply left there to provide a fig-leaf of cover for the

1 gross criminality in which you were a part.

2 A. It's not true. Mr. Prosecutor, I'm claiming with full

3 responsibility that that is not true. I fully stand by the Official

4 Notes, the official information, by the statements that were not taken

5 under duress, that were not taken under torture or with using any kind of

6 violence.

7 I understand these people, that now they did not want to confirm

8 the authenticity of their statements because they'd have problems.

9 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... quite understand that

10 something in the region of 20, 30, 40, 50 people, doctors, everybody is

11 wrong and you're right. We understand your position, but I want your help

12 with this logical problem.

13 How, if you were investigating living and dead KLA members with an

14 obvious interest in the survivors, how can it be that people from two

15 different houses destined for the same fate in the gully are divided up in

16 this way, that the survivors, with one limited exception, are not shown to

17 be KLA members? How can that be?

18 A. Mr. Prosecutor, I don't know whether they were in the same house,

19 whether it was the same ravine. This does not prove to me that that's the

20 way it was.

21 Q. Just a couple of questions on individual witness statements

22 so-called, Your Honours, and with your leave I wasn't put my case in

23 this --

24 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for Mr. Nice, please.

25 MR. NICE: I won't put my case in each and every witness

1 statement. They're summarised on the chart and it's available in the

2 materials, and it would take some time. But can we go back please in the

3 materials to 1.49, Naser --

4 JUDGE KWON: Before we are moving off, if we are going to leave

5 1.48, I know it is very of significant importance that a witness whose

6 name is Dzeljadini allegedly said that two members -- Bilalli and Zymberi

7 was killed in yard of the KLA substaff. If it is true, does it mean that

8 the two bodies might have been possibly moved overnight? Or if it is not,

9 then this statement was taken for a purpose of covering up. Am I right?

10 MR. NICE: Your Honour, yes, absolutely right.

11 JUDGE KWON: Yes. Do we have the yard of KLA substaff as one of

12 the crime scenes?

13 MR. NICE: No. There's a crime scene near to it but not, I think,

14 actually at it. Just let me --

15 JUDGE KWON: But there were some persons who were killed at

16 substaff.

17 MR. NICE: Not actually at the substaff I take it. Yes. No. It

18 was actually a good distance up the road from the KLA substaff that was

19 the nearest seen of crime, and it's number --

20 JUDGE KWON: If you are able to indicate the place in the map.

21 MR. NICE: May Mr. Kelly just have a sight of the other map,

22 please.

23 JUDGE KWON: While we are waiting, two further clarifications. As

24 for daughter of Mr. Sadik Mujota, is she not the one who appears in the

25 schedule under the name of Hanumshah Mehmeti, one of the two females?

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] May I explain? I could explain.

2 MR. NICE: No, two different people.

3 JUDGE KWON: Two different people.

4 MR. NICE: I'll just deal with the first question, if I may.

5 If Mr. Nort would take the map back.

6 Indeed, Your Honour, I should have drawn your attention straight

7 away to the legend on the map. If you look at the map, between -- at the

8 bottom between -- you'll see that square symbol, the code of which is

9 indeed that it's their headquarters. I don't have it up at the moment.

10 We can have a look at that. Can we have the audio booth play the --

11 display the picture of the map, please. Thank you. Can we get that?

12 Right. If Your Honours look at the bottom of the map, you'll see

13 between 1 and 2 a square block with a square shape in it. That's the

14 substaff headquarters, and therefore the only scenes of crime were some

15 distance away from the yard at either points 1 or point 2.

16 JUDGE KWON: So it's not noted as one of the crime scenes.

17 MR. NICE: Not at all, no.

18 JUDGE KWON: Thank you. And the last point is you dealt with

19 Exhibit 446 at one time, but you didn't identify the tab number. You

20 could do that later, just for the record.

21 MR. NICE: Right. Can I come back to that? Can we come back to

22 tab 1, the following tab. It was tab 6 of 466, Your Honour.

23 Can we go back now to tab 1.49, which we were looking at the day

24 before yesterday. The Court was provided, I don't know if it's still

25 got -- I'm sorry the witness was provided with certain translations of

1 this statement, and we had looked at some of them.

2 Your Honours, unless the paper exists in -- it may exist, happily,

3 in the bundle of materials that is our volume 1. Can the usher find that,

4 please, and see if it's there logged in 1.49? If it isn't, we'll have to

5 do without the translations and I'll read the entries to the witness.

6 Have you got a passage of translations there, Mr. Nort? Is that

7 all in English, Mr. Nort? Here we go. Here you go, Mr. Nort. This will

8 do. That for the witness. 8, 9, 10, 13, 14.

9 Q. We looked at paragraph 8 in the English two days ago, I think.

10 Paragraph 9 on the overhead projector in English, please, Mr. Nort, reads

11 as follows by this witness: "We were taken to the cells in the basement

12 where we were made to take off our shoes and our belts. They took my

13 watch and my wallet with 300 Deutschmarks which I never saw again. I was

14 repeatedly hit on my head by four police officers. The walls of the cells

15 were covered with blood with palm prints in the blood. There was also a

16 lot of human hair there as well. One policeman said get a gun, I want to

17 kill them. Another got a baton and we were beaten on our arms, legs --

18 hands and legs. I screamed, but my brother did not. Around midnight or 1

19 a.m., I asked if I could have some water. I was told all I could have was

20 a bullet by my forehead, for your forehead. He said, 'This is not the

21 place. You should be in Albania.'"

22 Was that you, Mr. Jasovic, who said all of that?

23 A. Mr. Prosecutor, I am saying to you with full responsibility that

24 this person came to see me of his own free will, voluntarily. It wasn't

25 once that he came to see me. He came two or three times.

1 Q. He didn't fall down, did he, while he was in the police station,

2 or have an accident or anything like that?

3 A. How is it possible that he fell when he reported at the desk where

4 the policeman was and it was the policeman at the entrance desk, the

5 reception desk who told me there is such-and-such a person who wants to

6 see you and this is what I'm stating with full responsibility.

7 Q. Paragraph 10 reads: "Around 3.00 a.m., two police men came in and

8 beat us again. One spoke Albanian, and I did not recognise him. He said,

9 because you are from the Mujota family it's difficult for you to get out

10 of here.

11 Around 7.00 a.m. They came and took my brother first. I didn't

12 know what was going to happen to him. Fifteen to 20 minutes later they

13 came for me and sent me to Jasovic's office again. He said, have you

14 thought about all this? I said, I have nothing to think about and he said

15 he would send me to Nis. I assume he meant Nis prison. Then Sparavalo

16 said, you'll never get out of this office because there is no God in this

17 office. I asked if I could have something to eat and somebody brought

18 some food. I don't know who. He said you will either tell the truth or I

19 will kill you.

20 Jasovic asked who the commander of the KLA was in Malopoljce and

21 how many soldiers there were in the KLA. I answered I don't know any of

22 this."

23 Does that have a grain of truth in it or no truth? You tell us.

24 A. There is not a grain of truth in this. I told you, I remember

25 that the second time he came he brought a document -- or, rather, he asked

1 me to help him with some document. I've forgotten now. As for this

2 particular person, I claim with full responsibility that this is not

3 true. But I understand the man. This man was not a member of the KLA and

4 probably now he has to justify himself in some other way so that he would

5 not suffer any consequences.

6 Q. Paragraph 13 reads as follows, follow that please: "I did sign a

7 statement while I was detain at Ferizaj on the second day but I did not

8 see anybody compile this statement nor did anybody take notes while I was

9 being interrogated. I was just presented with the statement to sign. I

10 don't know who or how the statement was compiled. Investigator Murtagh

11 has shown me a document. I recognise my signature. I was forced to sign

12 this statement and I was told by Jasovic if I didn't the only alternative

13 was death. I could hardly see the page where I had to sign because my

14 eyes were so swollen from the beatings. I do not understand the Serbian

15 language. This document has been read to me in Albanian today. I do not

16 accept this statement and what's written in it. I don't know. I remember

17 Jasovic said he would write a statement himself even if I didn't say

18 anything and he said that he would sign it himself."

19 Is that what you did?

20 A. That's not true. It's not true here what -- that he's complaining

21 about me and my colleagues. I tell you that there is just one truth, and

22 I say with full responsibility that the truth is that the individual came

23 to see me voluntarily, and I even remember that when I was busy I asked

24 him to wait outside for two or three minutes in the hall. So we talked

25 both in the office and outside in the hallway. And I know that the second

1 time he came he asked me to help him with something related to a document,

2 and I would be lying here if I would say it was a matter of a passport or

3 ID or some other document. But I understand him. I understand why he

4 doesn't want to confirm the authenticity of his statement.

5 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... when he was released he went

6 to see a doctor in Ferizaj because his hands were swollen. His arms and

7 hands were swollen and black. He was given injections and medication for

8 the pain. He couldn't see very well and read as a result of the beatings

9 and he had continuing problems.

10 How about that then?

11 A. All I know is that he was neither beaten. No force or violence

12 was applied to him.

13 Q. Well, we've got a little document from the doctor dated the 4th of

14 February, 1999. The Chamber can see it. I'm afraid it's in Latin and

15 hasn't been translated, but it's towards the end of the bundle from

16 Dr. Xhela. We can put it on the overhead projector, please. Quick. And

17 then one more.

18 MR. NICE: That's why I asked you if the man -- I'll get these

19 translated, Your Honour. I'm so sorry they haven't been done already. It

20 should have happened whatever language they're in.

21 Q. Can you account for this man going with problems to the doctor for

22 bruising of any kind?

23 A. I can't explain here, but I guarantee that no force was used, no

24 violence at all towards him. I can't take this document as being an

25 authentic document. I can't accept that.

1 Q. I asked you about this doctor before, whether you had anything

2 against him. You said you didn't. Have you changed your mind?

3 A. Well, I don't know the man. I don't know him. But if here what

4 we're discussing is that the doctor issued this document for him. I don't

5 know what the injuries were. I don't know the man. I never met him, so I

6 can't say.

7 MR. NICE: Your Honours will see in the materials there is another

8 document coming from a later date 2004 which constitutes an update of the

9 position, but again perhaps the witness can read it for us. I want his

10 help with one other piece of language.

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] At the top it says Naser Mujota, 19.

12 The next digit is 7 or what, the last digit is 5. 75 I think it says.

13 MR. NICE:

14 Q. Just read on. Read it for us and we'll have it in translation.

15 A. Well, in Latin it says -- this is Latin.

16 Q. And the bottom bit?

17 A. At the bottom it says in Albanian "ka nevoje per vizite," no need

18 for control. "konsultative te mjeku" that is and Albanian interpreter's

19 note, "ordinar ne Slloveni." No need for control. It says Basri Ibrahimi

20 at the bottom, an orthopaedist. Basri Ibrahimi, it says, orthopaedist.

21 Q. In Albanian "edhe matutje" and so on. Can you just read that out

22 and we will have that, please.

23 We're not getting a translation.

24 THE INTERPRETER: The witness is reading it out in Albanian so we

25 have to rely on your Albanian colleagues.

1 THE INTERPRETER: Loss of consciousness.

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Do you want me to read it again?

3 THE INTERPRETER: Loss of consciousness. And further up it was:

4 He needs further consultation.

5 MR. NICE:

6 Q. Can you read all of the Albanian starting at the beginning --

7 THE INTERPRETER: Yes. He needs further consultations with the

8 doctor.

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He complains of pain within the

10 lower extremities. He has pain -- pains in his head and loss of

11 consciousness.

12 MR. NICE:

13 Q. See, this man went to the doctor the same day and has been

14 suffering, he will say, continuing problems as a result of the beatings

15 you gave him there and then. True or false?

16 A. What I can see is that the date is the 15th, 2004.

17 Q. Very well.

18 A. 15th of June. 15/06/04. And you say he went the same day.

19 Q. No, the first document is dated February 1999.

20 JUDGE ROBINSON: Does he say he was beaten by the witness?

21 MR. NICE: Paragraph 8 where he said to the police officer -- I'll

22 read it again. He was beaten, dragged upstairs, recognised one of them

23 having seen him on -- clearly on television testifying here, knew him as

24 Dragan Jasovic.

25 Right. If I can have those documents back. I'm sorry about the

1 lack of translation. I'm get that tidied up for everybody's records. And

2 I -- Your Honours, I hope that I may be excused in the circumstances

3 putting the detail of all the allegations about all the other witness

4 statements.

5 As to the distribution of alleged identification of people as KLA,

6 that's shown on the chart. The points I would have made about there being

7 very low incidence of reference before Racak is obvious from the chart. I

8 should have explained, if the Court would be good enough to look at the

9 chart, that the revised version has some entries in black type, and those

10 are the entries that simply come from the latest batch of documents that

11 we did our best to review in the absence of interpretation or translation.

12 They can be found at and only after Racak on page 4 in the statement

13 attributed to the chief of police.

14 And I only have one or two more questions of this witness and then

15 I am done.

16 Q. First of all, one question. Since you speak Albanian, what is the

17 Albanian -- please say in Albanian the appropriate word for "so-called."

18 A. Let me just take a moment to think. I can't remember the word

19 just now. You know, six years is a long time, and I haven't been

20 contacting with -- that is to say, I haven't spoken Albanian for six

21 years.

22 Q. But yet all these men, on all these statements, whenever they use

23 the word KLA, preceded it by a word that you've been able to record in

24 Serbian as "so-called." So what's the word in Albanian? Can you really

25 not help us?

1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Robinson.

2 MR. NICE: Assistance is likely to be forthcoming --

3 JUDGE ROBINSON: Let the witness answer first, Mr. Milosevic.

4 Yes. Go ahead.

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] For the most part, most of them knew

6 Serbian, and they mostly said -- they called themselves that way. They

7 are an illegal organisation and referred to them so-called, and that was

8 the context, because most Albanians know Serbian. Most of them do.

9 MR. NICE:

10 Q. Well, first of all, that proposition is false. They nearly all

11 spoke in Albanian and very few in Serbian. Keep thinking. Have you got

12 the words for "so-called"?

13 A. Well, I can't remember just now. As I said not just now, but I'll

14 probably remember it in a while. As I say, for six years I haven't --

15 Q. How about "te eksteemiteteve te poshtme" [phoen]. Does that seem

16 about right?

17 A. I don't know. I can't be specific. But you can't pronounce the

18 word as an Albanian would pronounce it. They have a special way of

19 enunciating, of saying certain words and letters.

20 Q. Mr. Jasovic, you were throughout this period, and particularly in

21 1999, you were the real mechanic of the police state that delivered this

22 accused's policy in Kosovo, weren't you? In beating up Albanians.

23 A. That's not true. Not true. Neither is true. It is not true.

24 Q. And in joining wickedly with people like Marinkovic and police

25 officers and the other soldiers in trying to cover up an attack on

1 civilians which you all realised was quite inexcusable.

2 A. That's not true. It is just not correct and true, and I say that

3 with full responsibility. That is your opinion.

4 MR. NICE: Thank you very much.

5 JUDGE ROBINSON: We will not start the re-examination now.

6 There's a hearing this afternoon.

7 We will adjourn until Monday, 9.00 a.m.

8 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.42 p.m.,

9 to be reconvened on Monday, the 20th day

10 of June, 2005, at 9.00 a.m.

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