1 Tuesday, 21 June 2005
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 [The witness entered court]
5 --- Upon commencing at 9.02 a.m.
6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic to continue your re-examination.
7 WITNESS: DRAGAN JASOVIC [Resumed]
8 [Witness answered through interpreter]
9 Re-examined by Mr. Milosevic: [Continued]
10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I will continue immediately, but let
11 me ask you first and foremost for a particular piece of information.
12 Mr. Robinson, there are a great many documents here from General
13 Stevanovic and Witness Jasovic. When do you think you would be able to
14 look at these exhibits? You left that for later.
15 JUDGE ROBINSON: We plan to do that very soon.
16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
17 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
18 Q. Mr. Jasovic --
19 JUDGE ROBINSON: Just to complete the information, we're actually
20 awaiting the translation of the submissions from the -- from your
21 associates on that. I believe that has now come in, so we should be
22 attending to that very soon.
23 Yes. Please go ahead.
24 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
25 Q. In this binder that pertains to Racak, in tab 7 there is yet
1 another report which I hope you have in front of you.
2 A. No, I don't.
3 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: Could a copy please be
4 placed on the ELMO. Thank you.
5 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
6 Q. I hope you have it now.
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. This copy of yours in the Serbian language, is it legible? Mine
9 is quite illegible.
10 A. Well, I don't think this is really legible either.
11 Q. Can you read the date at least? Up on the top you can see
12 "Urosevac," and you can see the date.
13 A. I think the date is the 16th of January, 1999, up here. Yes, the
14 16th of January, 1999.
15 Q. Can you see the heading?
16 A. I think it says up here the MUP of the Republic of Serbia, but I
17 cannot see --
18 Q. On the English translation we can see that it's MUP, Operational
19 Centre of the MUP, the staff for Kosovo and Metohija. All of that is
20 mentioned here, then Kacanik, Stimlje, Strpce, Djeneral Jankovic and
21 Glogoscica. These are different police stations that were sent this
22 document. That can be seen from the English translation. I can't read it
23 in Serbian either.
24 Now, look at the heading. The heading is rather legible.
25 A. "The report on developments and events on the 15th of January,
2 Q. Does it say the 15th or the 16th? I think it says the 15th.
3 A. Well, maybe it is the 15th.
4 Q. If not, perhaps we can place it on the ELMO and we can have a look
5 at it together because we can see the 16th typewritten up on the top of
6 this survey.
7 A. Yes. The 16th of January, 1999.
8 Q. Whose signature's down at the end?
9 A. The head of the shift of the duty service of the SUP of Urosevac.
10 Q. All right. The head of the shift of the duty service of the SUP
11 of Urosevac sent this survey of events for the 15th. And then point 1
12 states --
13 A. Yes, point 1 states --
14 Q. Something that has nothing to do with Racak. Item 2 is also --
15 and then on the second page there is a survey of what happened in Racak,
16 also rather succinct. And the rest pertains to other events.
17 Can you read this survey of events in Racak?
18 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Jasovic, just before you do that, could you
19 also have in front of you tab 5 from that binder, and can you compare the
20 part you're now being asked to read on tab 7 with tab 5 from the second
21 paragraph and tell me if they are identical.
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I haven't read this part from tab 7.
23 You mean tab 7, the second paragraph. It says: "The 15th of January,
24 1999," if that's the passage you mean.
25 JUDGE BONOMY: Starting at 0300 hours, yes. That's the third --
1 it's on page 2 of --
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I haven't found it.
3 JUDGE BONOMY: It's headed "Other events and developments" in tab
4 7. The part you've just been directed to by Mr. Milosevic.
5 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
6 Q. It says here: "Other events and developments," on this page, this
7 dispatch. "Other developments and events." The rest is rather illegible,
8 what it says.
9 JUDGE BONOMY: Does it look to you identical to tab 5 from the
10 second paragraph?
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The second paragraph, as far as I
12 can see here from tab 7, well, I don't really find it very legible.
13 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
14 Q. You didn't understand Mr. Bonomy. He's asking you whether what it
15 says in tab 7 -- whether what it says in tab 7 is identical to what it
16 says in tab 5.
17 A. I cannot read this paragraph from tab 7 and that's why I cannot
18 give an answer to this question.
19 Q. In all fairness, I can't read it either.
20 A. I can't read it.
21 Q. Can you read this tab 7 at all?
22 A. Well, this second page is illegible, the one I have here.
23 Q. All right. We will not torment ourselves with that any longer
24 then. At any rate, in tab 7 from what can be seen is a survey of what
25 happened on the 15th of January, sent by the head of the shift?
1 JUDGE KWON: If the Court deputy could print out Prosecution
2 Exhibit 211, then the witness can read it. It's tab 7. We can proceed at
3 the moment.
4 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right. I hope that the rest is
6 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
7 Q. Look at tab 9 now. In all fairness, you have nothing to look at
8 in tab 9 because it was only given in the English language. It hasn't
9 been translated. But this is a note from a meeting. The head of the
10 Ministry of the Interior in Urosevac. It was held in Urosevac at the
11 Secretariat of the Interior.
12 I'm going to put some questions to you. Mr. Nice claimed that the
13 army was involved in what happened in Racak. Here it says who was present
14 at the meeting. Under (J) is Colonel Bogoljub Janicevic. It says
15 Janicijevic, but that's a mistake.
16 A. Yes, it's a mistake. It's Janicevic.
17 Q. He's chief of the MUP secretariat. Then there's Brigadier General
18 Maisonneuve, head of this centre from Prizren, then the deputy head of the
19 centre from Pristina, and an interpreter.
20 On page 2 -- or, rather, could we have it placed on the ELMO,
21 because it's just in English.
22 (G) is Gilbertson. (J) is Janicevic, and it says what they were
23 talking about. We will start from line 10: "[In English] Who are the
24 involved VJ?
25 "Janicevic: Who says they were?
1 "Gilbertson: OSCE saw it. US KDOM saw it.
2 "Janicevic: VJ op checkpoint only."
3 JUDGE KWON: The monitor should show the second -- next page.
4 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Have we got it at all on the monitor
5 now? Let me just have a look. Yes.
6 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
7 Q. Janicevic says the army of Yugoslavia is only at the checkpoint.
8 Can you see that? Further on the question is: "Do police ever op --"
9 operate, I assume -- "with the army of Yugoslavia?
10 "I may not have that information.
11 "Any prisoners taken?"
12 JUDGE ROBINSON: It's past time now for a question, Mr. Milosevic.
13 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
14 Q. Have you ever heard, Mr. Jasovic, since you worked at the Urosevac
15 secretariat, that in relation to Racak any military unit was engaged?
16 A. A few days ago at this trial I said that I have never heard of
17 this, and I never heard of members of the army of Yugoslavia being engaged
18 in Racak.
19 Q. Then he asks him, M, I assume it's Maisonneuve -- if we look at
20 the previous page, yes, it's Maisonneuve: "[In English] You were in
21 charge of 100 policemen?
22 "If it is of your concern, yes."
23 [Interpretation] Now, the second one, Gilbertson, says: "[In
24 English] We just left the VJ. They put all the blame on you. Were they
25 with you or not?
1 "Janicevic: We were not with the VJ."
2 [Interpretation] Gilbertson asks: "Police were the only ones to
3 do anything with this operation?
4 "[In English] Janicevic: I guarantee you it was only police
5 taking activities to stop or eliminate terrorists."
6 [Interpretation] So the words uttered by Janicevic, is that
7 consistent with what you knew?
8 A. What the then chief, Bogoljub Janicevic, said is consistent with
9 that. I know that the police took part in this operation. I didn't hear
10 about the army participating.
11 Q. According to what you knew, was that a fully legitimate operation
12 of the police or not?
13 A. Well, as to this question, I assume --
14 MR. NICE: [Previous translation continues] ... the Chamber might
15 like to remind itself that when I asked about this tab, recognising it was
16 in English, I confined myself to asking this witness whether he should
17 think of any reason why Janicevic should deny the involvement of the VJ,
18 and he said he didn't know the answer and most likely his former boss
19 could answer. I'm really not sure these questions are doing anything
20 except spending time.
21 JUDGE ROBINSON: The witness knows nothing about this, as he said
22 so, I think. Move on to another area, Mr. Milosevic.
23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Nice told us about the question
24 that he asked, whether there was any reason, and I can tell you that the
25 army was not involved there at all, and were it involved, I don't see why
1 anybody would be concealing that.
2 MR. NICE: The one thing that this accused cannot do is tell us
3 anything, and I would invite the Court to restrain his attempts to use
4 interventions and observations to do that which apparently he is not going
5 to do, which is to take the solemn declaration and give evidence. And if
6 he wants to ask the witness the questions that deal with -- that I dealt
7 with which show the presence of the army, that's another matter, but
8 simply to deal with something this witness can't deal with, which is what
9 his boss said contrary to that evidence, is a waste of time.
10 JUDGE ROBINSON: Move on to another area, Mr. Milosevic.
11 You're not to answer. Mr. Milosevic will ask you another
13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] His boss or, rather, the right
14 person who is in position to answer, has given an answer, and I just read
15 it out. It's in this record that I just read out.
16 JUDGE ROBINSON: [Previous translation continues] ...
17 Mr. Milosevic.
18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Let me just cover tab 15. This is
19 the tab pertaining to which Mr. Nice claimed that some people had been
21 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
22 Q. Would you please read out the information. It is legible,
23 completely clear. Since in the third line of the English translation it
24 says "were executed." That's what it says here, "executed."
25 Would you please read out the Serbian text.
1 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic, I detect once again diminishing
2 returns setting in. There comes a stage in your re-examination when you
3 have obviously exhausted the topic. There is no obligation to go on, and
4 certainly if you go on in this manner, it will be terminated. You have
5 already spent a day and a half or two days re-examining the witness. If
6 you have no further questions of a proper nature to put to the witness,
7 then stop. Otherwise, the re-examination will be terminated. You're
8 wasting time.
9 We have been here for, what, about half an hour, and you have not
10 asked even two questions that are worthwhile.
11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well, Mr. Robinson.
12 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
13 Q. Mr. Jasovic, in this information, the document entitled
14 "Information," it is stated what are the grounds for suspicion concerning
15 a terrorist group led by -- by Sadik Mujota, who apparently was liquidated
16 in Racak on the 15th of January. Would you please tell us what is this
17 group suspected of having committed? Do you have the first page, where it
18 says that there are reasonable grounds to believe that this group led by
19 Sadik Mujota committed a number of terrorists acts regulated by Article
20 125 of the criminal law of Yugoslavia?
21 A. Yes, that's right. That's what it says here.
22 Q. All right. As far as I can see here, we have 1, 2, 3, 4 bullets
23 here, 5, 6, 7, 8. Does this information in fact detail what kind of a
24 person this is and what has this person committed?
25 A. Based on operative information, we learned that Sadik Mujota from
1 the village of Malopoljce, Stimlje municipality, together with his
2 terrorist group, committed a number of crimes of terrorist attacks in the
3 territory of Stimlje.
4 Q. All right. The first bullet, can you read out the first word.
5 A. The first word is "The killing of Mihajlovic Sinisa."
6 Q. All right. So the first word is the killing or the murder. And
7 then further on it says the wounding as well. So the first one is murder.
8 And then what about the second bullet, just read the first word.
9 A. Murder of Jankovic Sasa.
10 Q. All right, murder as well. What about the third one?
11 A. Murder of Aluri Nazmija.
12 Q. All right. So in this case an Albanian was killed. What about
13 the fourth bullet?
14 A. Murder of Djordjevic Ranko.
15 Q. The fifth one?
16 A. Murder of Resani Miftar.
17 Q. The sixth one?
18 A. Murder of Gasi Enver.
19 Q. The seventh one?
20 A. On the 10th of January, the murder of Przic Svetislav, policeman.
21 Q. And in the last line, what does it say there?
22 A. "Sadik Mujota, together with his terrorist group, participated in
23 the setting on fire of the houses of members of Albanian minority in the
24 village of Racak, Stimlje municipality, so that on the 11th -- 18th of
25 November, 1998, at around 1730 hours they set on fire the house of Bitiqi
1 Xhemajl in the village of Racak."
2 JUDGE ROBINSON: Stop a minute. Stop a minute. What is the
3 purpose of this questioning, this line of questioning, Mr. Milosevic?
4 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The purpose is to establish that a
5 document entitled "Information" was submitted on liquidation of a
6 terrorist who had committed seven murders and that this person was killed
7 in Racak. This is what the police learned, because they were unable to
8 identify everyone at the time when these people died. Later on, they
9 identified this person and established that this person had committed
10 seven murders that police was aware, and of course many other crimes.
11 So this Information discusses the acts committed by one of the
12 persons killed in Racak.
13 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
14 Q. Mr. Jasovic, is this a regular procedure, to compile a document
15 entitled Information about such persons?
16 A. Yes, that's right. That is the regular procedure. This
17 Information, document entitled "Information" tells us about the person who
18 participated in terrorist attacks.
19 Q. All right. And in tab 16, we have the Daily Bulletin,
20 particularly quoted by Mr. Nice, where the head of the shift, sergeant
21 first class, drafted a note on a conversation which we were able to see in
22 the English text provided by the Verification Mission.
23 Therefore, can we see here already on the second page that all of
24 those persons mentioned by the Verification Mission are listed here as
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Except it says "Dilbertson" instead of "Gilbertson," and then
3 Maisonneuve and so on, as well as the chief of the Urosevac SUP. So is
4 this actually the Serbian note about that meeting, that same meeting?
5 A. Yes. Naturally the chief of the Urosevac secretariat was fully
6 authorised to conduct meetings at this level and have conversations.
7 Q. All right. Are you able to establish that this note, this
8 document, is longer or shorter than the English version?
9 A. Well, I think that this one is more complete, based on the
11 Q. What was supposed to be the role of the sergeant first class? Was
12 his role simply that of a note-taker or note-writer or was he also
13 participating in the conversation?
14 A. Well, most likely the chief of the secretariat took part in the
15 conversation and then he conveyed to the head of the shift what to put in
16 in the note describing the events of the day. I assume that such meetings
17 are held at a higher level and then the chief of the secretariat
18 authorises somebody to write up such documents.
19 Q. Yes, Mr. Jasovic, that is not in dispute here; it's quite clear.
20 I'm asking you, what was the role of the head of the shift? Was it just
21 to write up the note or to do something else?
22 A. Well, his duty was to put in the document, describe all of the
23 events which took place on the day when he was on duty.
24 Q. All right, Mr. Jasovic. Let us continue. Mr. Nice in the last
25 few days particularly emphasised how unlikely it is for someone who -- of
1 an advanced age, to be a member of the KLA. Would you please take the
2 book that we looked at yesterday published by the Albanians, and let us
3 just go over several examples of persons whom they included in the list of
4 their heroes. We are not now dealing with Racak, we are dealing about the
5 allegation that somebody of an advanced age must be a civilian.
6 Would you please open up page 51, please.
7 A. Yes, I found it.
8 Q. Can you please tell us, in what year was the fifth person from the
9 top born?
10 A. Hamit Halit Lladrofci, born in 1920.
11 Q. And died in 1998?
12 A. Yes, that's right.
13 JUDGE ROBINSON: I haven't found it.
14 JUDGE KWON: From the bottom.
15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] From the bottom.
16 JUDGE ROBINSON: Oh, I thought from the top.
17 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
18 Q. So if we deduct 20 from 1998, what do we get?
19 A. 78 -- or 76.
20 Q. 78, Mr. Jasovic, certainly.
21 A. Yes, yes, 78.
22 Q. Very well. All right. Let's take a look at page 55 now.
23 A. I've found it.
24 Q. The last person on the list.
25 A. Ilaz Bali Hyseni.
1 Q. Born in what year?
2 A. 1915, killed in -- or died in 1998 in Kaqanoll.
3 Q. Does that mean that he was 83?
4 A. Yes, he was 83. 98 minus 15.
5 JUDGE ROBINSON: Is this a document setting out KLA members or
6 Albanians who -- UCK.
7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] This is their book, Mr. Robinson,
8 the book that I received from the opposite side. This book contains the
9 names of the fallen heroes, as they call them, members of the KLA who were
10 killed, fallen heroes.
11 JUDGE ROBINSON: Everybody in this book, in this document, is a
12 KLA member, as distinct from just an Albanian. That's what it says?
13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, you were able to see the cover
14 page of this book. You can have that translated. I don't have the
15 translation. I have it in the Albanian language only. But you were able
16 to see that there is the UCK written on the cover page, and we can also
17 see the emblem. It states very clearly that this is the book on the
18 fallen members of the KLA.
19 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation].
20 Q. What does this mean, Fenikset e Lirise, Fenikset e Lirise?
21 A. The Phoenix of Freedom.
22 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Milosevic. Please move on.
23 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
24 Q. Then please look at page 66.
25 A. 56?
1 Q. No, 66. The third person from the top, born in 1926. So he was
2 74, 72, killed in 1998.
3 A. Yes, he was 72.
4 Q. All right. Let us not continue with this, but Mr. Jasovic, based
5 on your experience, were you familiar with any cases where some very old
6 people or some very young persons, in fact minors, were members of the
8 A. Yes, I know about that. The KLA was not a legal institution that
9 applied the same rules as the army, because the army, for example, takes
10 people 18 and up only. In this case, anybody who was fit, who was able,
11 could join the KLA.
12 Q. All right. Very well.
13 JUDGE ROBINSON: [Previous translation continues]... question.
14 Upward limit. Upward age. What is the oldest that you're aware of?
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, there are no rules. I don't
16 know who the oldest was, oldest KLA member. I can't remember. But as for
17 the KLA generally, I said that only able people were -- they might be
18 somebody who is 70 but quite capable and able, if I can put it that way.
19 So there are no strict rules according to which a person joins the KLA,
20 say, from the ages of 15 to 55, or any such specifications. Anybody who
21 was able or capable could join.
22 JUDGE BONOMY: Are you able to give a name of a very young person
23 or a very old person that you were aware of as a member?
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The KLA members -- well, let me take
25 the example of Afrim Musliu from the Belinc village. They were young
1 then, very young guys. Afrim and his brother, they were young men. I
2 can't remember. Well, they were about -- under the age of 20 certainly.
3 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
4 Q. All right. Very well. Now, we saw in this book a person who was
5 83 years old. Mr. Jasovic, you received, as it says here, a partial
6 translation of a statement by a protected witness who is to be found in
7 tab 9 of Mr. Nice's documents. I'm going to quote just one point from
8 that partial translation, because the others were ones that Mr. Nice
9 quoted to you. It is point 47, in fact, of tab 9. But since it wasn't
10 translated very precisely, I'm going to read it from the English, point
11 47, because in the translation it says, "Jasovic in 1997 and 1998,"
12 whereas in paragraph 47, it says: "In 1997/8/9." So one year has been
13 left out in the translation. He "concentrated on members of the KLA,
14 which he referred to as terrorists, whom he called terrorists, in the area
15 around Stimlje, Urosevac, and the villages of those two municipalities."
16 So here it says that you were concentrating on that. And was that
17 your job precisely as a crime inspector, to learn as much as you could
18 about members of the KLA during those years?
19 A. Yes. 1998, for instance, with the appearance of the KLA staffs
20 and headquarters that were set up. Within the frameworks of my line of
21 work, I worked together with my colleague, and one of my assignments was
22 to connect all information linked and related to the KLA. And as I said
23 earlier on, information about their activities, movements, how many of
24 them there were, what weapons they had. So our operative work was focused
25 on throwing light on them and finding the perpetrators of possible
1 terrorist acts that had been committed.
2 Q. Thank you, Mr. Jasovic.
3 MR. NICE: Your Honours, if we're moving on from any reference or
4 further reference to the book "Fallen Heroes," the Chamber will recall the
5 limited questions I felt able to ask of this witness in relation to it,
6 because of course he knew nothing of its compilation. And the Chamber
7 will also recall that in the questions I asked I in no sense accepted that
8 all those described there were in any sense active members of the KLA. I
9 explained through questions to the witness that materials can be found,
10 indeed I think about tabs -- tabs 8 and 9, I think -- or no, not 8 and 9.
11 Materials can be found showing the problems there were with compilation of
12 this book and the reasons why people's names might be in it, but in light
13 of Your Honours' questions, it is not put in on the basis that the
14 Prosecution accepts -- it's not put in at all, but it's -- if it is to go
15 in as an exhibit, it's not accepted by the Prosecution that the people
16 named there are automatically members of the KLA.
17 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, what is it then?
18 MR. NICE: It was a document that it was thought appropriate
19 because of course it provides some significant material to indicate that
20 people may be members of the KLA, but there are also other reasons for
21 names appearing there, at least on the material coming for us; pension and
22 matters of that sort, people wanting their names there because they want
23 to be registered as heroes, whatever their contribution. And so it would
24 be incorrect to rely on the document as in any sense an admission by the
25 Prosecution that somebody in that book is a member of the KLA.
1 Notwithstanding that, I've drawn to your attention the fact that
2 there is a coincidence between those listed there, for example, and those
3 identified by Shukri Buja, but then there is a non-coincidence between
4 those identified as civilians and three of the names found in the book.
5 JUDGE ROBINSON: You won't be seeking to have this exhibited?
6 MR. NICE: I'm content to have it exhibited in due course, but
7 we'll have to consider exhibits much more generally. I don't object to
8 its being exhibited, we made it available to the accused in order to help
9 him, but by doing that we're not saying that the document is in some way
10 authoritative of who was or was not a member of the KLA at the time of
11 their death.
12 JUDGE BONOMY: Has the introductory narrative been translated?
13 MR. NICE: It hadn't. I don't think it's been translated into
14 English [microphone not activated]... There are those in Court who can
15 help you, including the witness, with what it says.
16 JUDGE KWON: I remember a part of Mr. Shukri Buja's evidence where
17 he said that not all the KLA members were engaged in combat operations.
18 Some of them were only involved in administrative matters or something
19 like that.
20 MR. NICE: Well, that's indeed --
21 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone please Mr. Nice. Microphone, please.
22 MR. NICE: My apologies. That is indeed correct, but in a recent
23 statement dealing with this book, and with other matters which you can
24 find at tab 7 and there's another at tab 8 that deals with it, you can
25 find his further qualification for categorisation of people in this book.
1 If necessary and -- this evidence can be called at a later stage
2 in the trial if it becomes sufficiently critical.
3 JUDGE ROBINSON: There's a fairly long introduction. Perhaps that
4 would throw some light --
5 MR. NICE: Yes, Your Honour, the --
6 JUDGE ROBINSON: -- on the status of those whose names are
8 MR. NICE: Well, that can always be translated, and we can
9 possibly look at it on the overhead projector now through this witness. I
10 should explain again, and I think I explained earlier, there are some
11 other books which we made available which are individual biographies of
12 some of those who are named in the general index, biographies with
13 photographs. We've gone through those in particular to see if we can find
14 any of the three people described in Schedule A as civilians having a
15 detailed biography that would show how they died at Racak, because
16 obviously that would be potentially interesting and favourable to the
17 accused. They don't show, as far as we've been able to discover in those
18 subsequent biographies, and we've been unable to unearth anything
19 favourable to the accused in those subsequent biographies where more
20 detail is provided, but all the material's available to him for him to
21 deal with as he wishes, subject to the limitations on the material as
22 Shukri Buja describes it.
23 We --
24 JUDGE KWON: Is this the same material we dealt with during the --
25 Mr. Stevanovic's evidence? I remember we once -- we saw similar material
1 which was disclosed under the regime of 68 to the accused.
2 MR. NICE: I think it -- we may have dealt with it with
3 Mr. Stevanovic, and certainly I think it had been disclosed at that time.
4 JUDGE KWON: What I remember is Phoenix of Freedom, or something
5 like that. We saw the similar --
6 MR. NICE: I think so, yes. I'll check that. Reminding that
7 Court that although it was nominally provided under Rule 68 that was out
8 of an excess of concern for the accused not necessarily knowing that
9 something was available in open sources.
10 JUDGE ROBINSON: The introduction should be translated.
11 MR. NICE: If the Court so decides, we'll get it done.
12 JUDGE ROBINSON: And we ask that it be translated.
13 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please, for --
14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Robinson -- yes, it's on. I can
15 -- Mr. Nice mentioned the testimony of Shukri Buja. I don't have time to
16 deal with his testimony now, however, you can glance through his statement
17 and you'll be able to see that they endeavoured to introduce names
18 restrictively and not on an extensive basis; that is to say, not to put
19 somebody on the list that just happened to die somehow but whom according
20 to their criteria deserved and merited being on the pages of that book of
21 fallen heroes. So that that gives me quite enough reason to believe that
22 these are exclusively fallen KLA fighters, those who fell in battle. And
23 anyway, we can establish that later on. But it's quite clear why, and I'm
24 very surprised to see why Mr. Nice, who provided me with this book, now
25 suddenly has some reservations to make. The only thing that can be said
1 is that it is probably not complete and comprehensive. I'm sure there are
2 more names.
3 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
4 Q. Mr. Jasovic, let's try and save as much time as possible now. You
5 were asked by Mr. Nice whether you knew anything about the visit of
6 General Djordjevic to the SUP of Urosevac. Now, please, do you remember
7 what General Djordjevic was?
8 A. General Djordjevic was there in the capacity of deputy minister of
9 the interior of the Republic of Serbia, I believe. I think at the time he
10 was chief of the sector for public security.
11 Q. Right. As chief of public security, was General Djordjevic the
12 immediate superior to the chiefs of the Secretariats of the Interior in
13 the whole of Serbia?
14 A. Yes, of course that's true, that's correct.
15 Q. Tell me now, then, is there anything unusual in the fact that the
16 immediate superior should tour the Secretariats of the Interior, should
17 visit the Secretariats of the Interior in the field, or would it be
18 unusual if he were not to visit them?
19 A. It would be unusual if he did not visit them and tour them.
20 MR. NICE: [Previous translation continues] ... referred you to
21 his superiors. So this is, although expressed in an alternative format so
22 as not to be strictly speaking leading, is effectively a leading question
23 on a topic that the witness has said in earlier testimony he can't help
25 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, he can ask the question.
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I said I didn't know whether he
2 visited the secretariat in Urosevac that particular day, the day you
3 specified. I don't know that. That's what I said I didn't know. But,
4 yes, it is customary and usual that he can come any time to tour the
5 Secretariat of the Interior, pay them a visit.
6 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
7 Q. Just a minute, please. I have one more tab of Mr. Nice's to get
8 through, and he focused on it especially. And that is tab -- the last
9 tab, in fact, in this binder of his. It is 2.23. That is the number
10 which it goes by, and it refers to a statement by Adil Zymberi, if I'm
11 reading it correctly, if I'm reading his name correctly. They interviewed
12 him and questioned him with respect to all the statements he provided, and
13 you have here as a supplement your own information at the end. If you
14 could take a look at that, Mr. Jasovic, the report at the end.
15 A. Yes, I found the report or information.
16 Q. It is dated the 20th of January, 1999. Have you found that?
17 A. Yes, I have. It says report/6-99 of the 20th of January, 1999.
18 Q. Tell me now, please, Mr. Jasovic, since this is rather a lengthy
19 report, and in the statement of Mr. Zymberi, which as we can see was taken
20 on the 29th of May, 2005, can you read when the statement was taken? Do
21 you see that date, the 29th of May, 2005? Can you see that?
22 A. Zymberi Fadil. The date is the 29th of May.
23 Q. 2005.
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. And you took the statement on the 20th of January, 1999, did you
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Tell me this now, please, Mr. Jasovic: Can you remember the
4 circumstances under which you took the statement, which as I can see is a
5 very detailed one, very extensive, comprehensive, contains many facts. And
6 Mr. Nice's witnesses here said that that was the job you were engaged in,
7 collecting information of that kind.
8 A. I can't find Fadil Zymberi's statement.
9 Q. It's at the end. Try and find it, please. Towards the end.
10 A. I don't seem to have my statement except the statement which he
11 gave to the investigators or, rather, this seems to be my statement in
13 Q. But you must have a photocopy of the version in Serbian. I'm sure
14 you do somewhere.
15 A. I have this information dated the 20th of January, 1999. As for
16 Fadil Zymberi's statement, I haven't got it.
17 Q. Is that Fadil Zymberi's statement, the one that you had from the
18 20th of January, 1999?
19 A. It's tab 2.23. And this is a particular piece of information
20 containing information about the whereabouts of the KLA. This information
21 was proffered by the informer and a male nurse.
22 Q. All right. You saw that Fadil Zymberi is challenging a series of
23 information contained --
24 MR. NICE: No --
25 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
1 Q. -- in this --
2 MR. NICE: -- incorrect summary and the witness is indeed
3 revealing the history of this document. The witness gave two different
4 accounts for the source of this document. As I think I heard one of the
5 Bench say, there is no statement from Zymberi, so it is not correct for
6 the accused to summarise the position as a statement of Zymberi. This
7 document, whatever else it may be in light of the two answers in the
8 course of his evidence given, or explanations given by this witness, is
9 not an apparent statement of anybody, and it doesn't divide up, if there
10 were two sources of information, who provided what.
11 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thanks for the correction, Mr. Nice. It's headed
12 a report, or Information.
13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Robinson, I'm afraid that it's a
14 misunderstanding. I am not saying that this Information - because that is
15 actually the heading of this document, it is Information, not Report - I'm
16 speaking of Zymberi's statement contained in tab 2.23 that you have here
17 in English. Zymberi Fadil gave his statement on the 29th of May, 2005.
18 So I asked the witness when this person gave the statement.
19 In his statement, he brings into question what is contained in
20 this information. So I wish to confront his claims in the Information
21 with the knowledge of the witness contained in the statement and also what
22 he included in this piece of information.
23 Mr. Nice also gave a summary of statement here.
24 JUDGE ROBINSON: So the statement -- I think we have it now. The
25 statement is the first document in 2.23. The second document, yes. The
1 first is a summary.
2 What is the specific question now?
3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Since the witness does not have
4 Zymberi's statement and this summary of statement of Zymberi, because it's
5 in English and that has not been translated for him, and it is actually
6 different from what he states in his Information, I think it would be a
7 good thing for him to compare Zymberi's summary of statement to the
8 positions contained in his Information and to say who it is that is
9 telling the truth or, rather, that he testify to what the truth actually
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] May I just say something?
12 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The male nurse, there's probably a
14 misunderstanding here because even now I cannot remember the name and
15 surname of the male nurse. I've simply forgotten his name and surname.
16 Tab 2.23 relates to two sources. Two persons gave me information;
17 the informer and the male nurse. Even now I cannot remember the name of
18 the male nurse because I saw him only two or three times. I cannot say
19 whether his name is Fadil Zymberi and whether he's the person who gave the
20 Prosecution a statement. He said that he's a male nurse, probably he is
21 that person.
22 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
23 Q. It's not for you to establish what is probable or likely,
24 Mr. Jasovic. Your information is very extensive, and it contains a great
25 deal of information, and he confronted that with Fadil Zymberi's
1 statement, who claims that did he not say some of the things that are
2 contained in your Information.
3 Where in this Information of yours do you claim that you learned
4 this from Fadil Zymberi?
5 A. The person lives in the village of Racak.
6 Q. Wait a moment. In your Information, is it stated anywhere that
7 you got this information from Fadil Zymberi? That's what I'm asking you.
8 A. No, it's not written there. As I've already said, I can compile
9 an Information without giving the names of the persons who provided me
10 with information.
11 Q. Mr. Jasovic, Mr. Nice claims that you got this information from
12 Fadil Zymberi, who denies that. So I'm asking you, did you get the
13 information from Zymberi or did you get it from some other people?
14 A. I got it from a male nurse. Even now I cannot remember whether
15 his name is Fadil Zymberi. That is why we have this misunderstanding,
16 because I cannot recall his name.
17 MR. NICE: Again, I'm sorry to interrupt, but with this line of
18 approach to re-examination, it's necessary to nip things in the bud.
19 On the 27th of April of this year, this witness gave the following
20 unqualified explanation for tab 2.23: He said the information was
21 provided by a nurse from the village of Racak whose name he couldn't
22 recall, but he could state that the male nurse was married to a woman from
23 the village of Petrastica, Stimlje municipality, that his father-in-law I
24 think is called Dugolli, killed on the 28th of November of 1997. Those
25 coordinates were pursued by the investigator Ms. Murtagh. This person was
1 the unique identified person who resulted from the information provided by
2 this witness on the 27th of April.
3 Association of the material with another person came at other
4 times, but on this occasion he was quite specific. And the Court will
5 have in mind --
6 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for Mr. Nice, please.
7 MR. NICE: The Court will have in mind, if it's looking at the
8 witness -- or proposed witness statement in tab 2.23, that the last
9 paragraph of the witness statement sets out his account of his own
10 history, which matches that given for the person concerned by this witness
11 on the 27th of April of this year.
12 JUDGE ROBINSON: I took note of your comment, Mr. Nice, about this
13 type of re-examination, because I'm getting very concerned about the
14 manner in which the re-examination is conducted. I have spent 37 years in
15 adversarial proceedings, and I have never witnessed re-examination of this
16 length, no matter how long the cross-examination is.
17 Mr. Kay, maybe you can tell me if you have seen re-examination
18 last one day or two days. I've never seen it, no matter how long the
19 cross-examination is. Re-examination is simply for the purpose of
20 rehabilitating your witness, dealing with important points that arise out
21 of cross-examination. And I have to consult my colleagues about this as
22 to whether we are discharging our duties properly.
23 The re-examination should not last two days. That's an abuse of
24 the entire process. The re-examination should be conducted in the same
25 way it would be conducted in Jamaica or in Scotland or in England or in
1 Canada, in countries which have adversarial proceedings. Re-examination
2 is not to last a day or two days. It's abusive, and I will consult with
3 my colleagues in the break as to how to constrain this kind of
5 JUDGE KWON: I would say even shorter in civil law countries as
7 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you, Judge Kwon.
8 Mr. Kay?
9 MR. KAY: Yes. One of the problems is that -- and it's necessary
10 in the terms of the constraints we face. Mr. Nice, in his
11 cross-examination, was able in an almost seamless way to bring Your
12 Honours in by way of comment, often not solely directed to the witness,
13 and tie up issues of argument and presentation that was in his interest
14 that he wanted to make time and time again. I didn't do anything about
15 that, but it was obvious to me that there was a form of presentation that
16 was in the form of speech as well as questioning.
17 One understands the limits that we have in terms of time, and
18 sometimes a message has to be got over in a way that requires a degree of
19 latitude, and it may be that some habits that have been brought into the
20 questioning of witnesses are necessarily copied and reflected by the
21 Defence in the way sometimes that Mr. Milosevic has to present his points
22 which he feels need to be tied up so that Your Honours understand it, and
23 that seems to have been a practice that has been developing in the
24 questioning of witnesses.
25 That's all I have to say about it.
1 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you, Mr. Kay.
2 Mr. Milosevic, how much longer do you plan to spend?
3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, I hope I finish before the end
4 of this session. If Mr. Nice were not interrupting me all the time, I
5 would have finished by now.
6 JUDGE ROBINSON: I take that -- I doubt that, but let's move on.
7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I cannot ask the witness now to read
8 the text in English, but I would like to draw your attention to the
9 following: In relation to this Information that was provided by the
10 witness, dated the 20th of January, 1999, and that somebody marked
11 according to paragraphs, please look at the summary. One, two, three,
12 four, five, six, seven, eight, nine paragraphs from the bottom -- I
13 haven't even gone on to the other page, and then the other page one, two,
14 three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine -- 18, 18 paragraphs contain
15 the same phrase.
16 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
17 Q. Now, listen to this, Mr. Jasovic. Listen to the phrase: "[In
18 English] He stated he is not the origin of the information."
19 [Interpretation] So in 18 paragraphs contained in this
20 Information, or more, I referred only to 18, but, no, there are more.
21 Again towards the end there are more. Not the origin, not the origin, and
22 so on. So --
23 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Milosevic, the Chamber has difficulty locating
24 the paragraph. Could you do that again?
25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Please. Take the first document
1 from 2.23. Fadil Zymberi, OTP Summary of Statement. And then -- and then
2 look at the bullets on that page. Nine bullets, counting from the bottom.
3 In all of those nine paragraphs it says that he is not the source of
4 information. And on the second page this is referred to in ten or 12
5 further bullets, that he is not the origin of the information in that
7 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
8 Q. Now I'm asking you, Mr. Jasovic, if he claims that he is not the
9 origin of information for at least half of this Information that you
10 provided here, could you explain to me whether you simply invented what is
11 contained in this Information or did you receive information from a
12 trustworthy source, a source that is reliable enough for you to include
13 this in an official Information?
14 A. The fact is and the truth is that this information that I compiled
15 I got from the male nurse and from the informer. As I said last time,
16 this information came from two sources, that is to say two persons.
17 Q. I would particularly like to draw your attention to the following,
18 that he says concerning paragraph 30 -- I'm going to read it in English so
19 that I won't make a mistake: "[In English] In paragraph 30 he states that
20 contrary to that stated in tab 2.23, he does not know if the persons
21 mentioned therein were KLA members."
22 [Interpretation] Now, that is on page 3 of your statement. It is
23 marked as paragraph 30. It says: "In addition to the aforementioned
24 members of the so-called KLA, the following were also in the village of
25 Racak," and then there is a long paragraph containing at least 30 names.
1 Did you invent that, Mr. Jasovic, or did you receive this information from
2 your informer or any other source? Can you explain that?
3 A. We did not invent this information, neither I nor my colleague
4 Momcilo Sparavalo. We received this information from a male nurse and
5 from our informer. For me this information is trustworthy and truthful,
6 because these persons appear in other documents as well as members of the
8 Q. All right. I'm not going to deal with this any longer. I just
9 wanted to indicate the quality of the evidence that Mr. Nice compiled in
11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I don't know how that works in that
12 system of yours that you keep referring to all the time, Mr. Robinson, but
13 if somebody is not a source of information, then how can that person deny
14 information that is contained in documents?
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] According to our instructions, we
16 can compile Official Notes or this kind of information without referring
17 to the name of the source, of the person that we talked to without
18 revealing the details of that person.
19 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
20 Q. I'm asking you about what Mr. Nice said. He even went as for as
21 to say that General Djordjevic exerted pressure for you to provide this
22 kind of information. Please, is there a grain of truth in what Mr. Nice
23 is claiming?
24 A. I don't understand this at all, that General Djordjevic could
25 exert pressure on me or anyone else for us to invent information, to make
1 it up. Not only General Djordjevic, anybody.
2 Q. Mr. Nice also took as an example your tab 1.16, where one of the
3 statements -- never mind, but 1.16 is your tab. And somebody wrote in
4 hand on the top of the page "For Colonel General V. Djordjevic."
5 What does that mean?
6 A. That means that most probably the head of the organ of the
7 secretariat in Urosevac forwarded this note or information to General
8 Djordjevic, which is only natural, because --
9 Q. All right. Mr. Jasovic, have I understood you correctly? Can I
10 infer that if the head of the organ deems a particular piece of
11 information of particular interest he sends it to his superior, and that
12 is General Djordjevic?
13 A. In addition to General Djordjevic, it's also the head of the MUP
14 -- the staff of the MUP for Kosovo and Metohija.
15 Q. All right. Mr. Jasovic, in these statements and in what Mr. Nice
16 said, you were accused of having beaten people. Then you were presented
17 with some kind of text of a certain Council for the Protection of Freedoms
18 and so on.
19 Over all those years, some NGO, some Council for the Protection of
20 Freedom, some individual who was allegedly mistreated in the police, did
21 anybody ever file a complaint against you or other members of the Ministry
22 of the Interior in the secretariat in Urosevac?
23 A. No complaint was certainly filed against me. As for others, I
24 cannot say. But I can say one thing here, that from the very beginning of
25 my work, the then-head of secretariat Jusuf Karakushi commended me and
1 gave me citations, and others after him, and that can be confirmed.
2 Q. In tab 16, in a statement given by one of Mr. Nice's witnesses,
3 this witness claims that you threatened him, that you threatened to chop
4 his head off, and as it turned out later, you let him go. Is there a
5 shred of truth in what Mr. Nice put to you?
6 A. No, no truth whatsoever, Mr. President.
7 Q. Mr. Nice said that somebody was beaten in February of 1999. In
8 February of 1999, was there the European Mission of observers present as
9 well as the OSCE Verification Mission?
10 A. Well, we know that the Kosovo Verification Mission arrived in the
11 fall of 1998, and I think that they left in February of 1999.
12 Q. March of 1999, Mr. Jasovic, not in February.
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. All right. So if nobody complained to our organs, as Mr. Nice
15 claims, did they have occasion to complain to the organs of the
16 Verification Mission or the EU Monitoring Mission?
17 A. Yes, certainly they had occasion.
18 Q. I'm asking you that, Mr. Nice [as interpreted]: Do you know of
19 anybody complaining to the members of the Verification Mission or the EU
20 Observer Mission?
21 A. I never heard about that.
22 Q. Mr. Jasovic, you saw all of these documents, the facts; you were
23 there in the Urosevac SUP. Do you remember, when it comes to weapons,
24 weapons such as heavy machine-guns, plain machine-guns, hand grenades, so
25 on, how much of that was found in the village of Racak?
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 A. As I've said last time, quite a large quantity was found in the
2 village of Racak when the on-site investigation was conducted. All of
3 that weaponry was brought in into the hall of the Urosevac SUP.
4 Q. Was that clear that that weaponry was used to conduct combat?
5 A. Well, that's a fact.
6 MR. NICE: Totally inadmissible leading question and I should
7 remind the Court that this witness, so he told us, was never present in
8 Racak himself, although I had material to suggest that he was. But no
9 doubt he can always make that clear if it's going to be of any value.
10 JUDGE ROBINSON: That's -- that was leading --
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was not present in Racak.
12 JUDGE ROBINSON: -- Mr. Milosevic.
13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right.
14 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
15 Q. I asked you about the weaponry because this was confiscated by
16 your secretariat. Mr. Nice claims that the members of the Mother Teresa
17 Association were killed in Racak. In your police experience did you ever
18 hear of members of the Mother Teresa Association firing from heavy
19 machine-guns, throwing hand grenades, and possessing all of that weaponry?
20 A. I never heard of the members of the Mother Teresa Organisation or
21 Association firing or possessing all of that weaponry.
22 Q. Thank you, Mr. Jasovic.
23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I don't have further questions,
24 Mr. Robinson.
25 JUDGE KWON: But there existed -- Mr. Jasovic, there existed an
1 association which is called Mother Teresa Association there?
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I heard about that association, the
3 Mother Teresa Association, but I don't know whether it actually existed in
4 Racak. I know that there was that association in Stimlje.
5 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Jasovic, that concludes your evidence. Thank
7 you for coming to the Tribunal to give it, and you may now leave.
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good-bye, Mr. President. Thank you
9 to everybody.
10 [The witness withdrew]
11 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Nice, would there be other documents that you
12 would wish to have exhibited other than what you have specifically
13 referred to?
14 MR. NICE: The -- out of our binders, out of our two binders does
15 Your Honour mean?
16 JUDGE ROBINSON: No, other than --
17 JUDGE BONOMY: You've got three binders now.
18 MR. NICE: Correct.
19 JUDGE BONOMY: And you've also tendered other material.
20 MR. NICE: Certainly.
21 JUDGE BONOMY: We need to identify what it is you're seeking to --
22 MR. NICE: Yes. Can I make our position clear? I'm going to seek
23 to exclude all the Jasovic materials as unreliable and falling below a
24 level that should be admitted. If that application succeeds, then little
25 or none of the material that I've been relying on would be material I'd
1 want admitted. Some of it might be valuable independently of the
2 cross-examination of the witness, but if there's any question of the
3 materials of Jasovic being admitted as evidence in this trial, then I
4 would seek to have nearly all our materials admitted. I realise the
5 Chamber may be against me in principle on, for example, the statements
6 taken in accordance with its earlier rulings but I'll nevertheless make
7 that application, but the other materials I think might be of value but
8 the one would depend, in a sense, on the other.
9 It had occurred to me that so far as the admission of the Jasovic
10 materials are concerned, written submissions might be helpful but I'm
11 entirely in the Court's hands. And if there were to be written
12 submissions, could I respectfully invite the Court to consider as a -- on
13 this particular occasion, inviting or demanding written submissions with
14 the possibility for short, focused oral submissions when they've all been
15 presented. Because I think it's quite an important issue and it might
16 benefit from five or ten minutes from all the parties when the written
17 submissions are in, rather than, for example, written submission and then
18 replies and that sort of thing.
19 [Trial Chamber confers]
20 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Nice, we want to have a -- identify a
21 reasonable time for the parties within which to make their submissions.
22 Can I hear from you on that?
23 MR. NICE: Yes. I would obviously hope to have staff to turn to
24 it if -- pretty well immediately, but seven days might be optimistic and I
25 prefer two weeks.
1 JUDGE ROBINSON: I think that's too much really.
2 Mr. Kay?
3 MR. KAY: Yes, it's too long.
4 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
5 MR. KAY: We should really be dealing with this by oral argument
6 so that we can move on. The trouble is when we're -- the case moves on,
7 we're going back to deal with these arguments that take two or three days
8 to draft and put everything together in a proper way. Meanwhile, one's
9 dealing with the new witnesses and other issues, and it's very difficult
10 for the case to keep its forward-going momentum, and we are ready for our
11 oral argument on the issues, which are very current, very pertinent.
12 We've heard the evidence, we know what the conflict is about in the
13 courtroom, and if both sides were given ten minutes to deal with oral
14 argument on the admissibility, that might assist the Trial Chamber more
15 than having more filings and more delay.
16 That's my submission on the matter.
17 As far as the compendium of Racak materials goes, the single
18 volume, I think there's only one document that didn't come through in the
19 form of a previous exhibit that was referred to in evidence. That seems
20 to me a helpful matter, to have all the documents in one place, because it
21 was becoming very difficult to trace many of the Racak documents in
22 dealing with Racak issues, and that might be a useful aid to the Trial
23 Chamber. They may have made their own compendiums already, we were
24 putting that together, but this seems to me to be a useful collection, if
25 we could get that out of the way.
1 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic.
2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Robinson, I think that this
3 would not fit in any system, what Mr. Nice is doing. You know very well
4 he was the one who proposed to have this witness give evidence when I
5 didn't even know that this witness existed. I accepted that, the witness
6 came to testify, and brought with him original material created at the
7 time of the events, contemporaneously.
8 You gave Mr. Nice one month to prepare for cross-examination, and
9 then Mr. Nice brought in some statements taken in May of 2005 --
10 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic, just comment on the particular
11 issue at hand, written statements -- written submissions on the exhibits.
12 If so, how long; or just oral arguments?
13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Robinson, I am categorically
14 opposed to written arguments, written submissions. I think that it is a
15 normal procedure to have exhibits admitted during the testimony of the
16 witness, to have them admitted or to deny their admission. I think this
17 is normal procedure. And let me tell you right away I'm not going to
18 write any written submissions on that issue.
19 JUDGE ROBINSON: In my system, yes, Mr. Milosevic. I understand
20 that in some civil countries the admission is done at the end of the case.
21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] In that case, in your system you can
22 do as you please.
23 JUDGE ROBINSON: Well, what we are to decide is what is the best
24 course of action in the particular circumstances of this case.
25 [Trial Chamber confers]
1 JUDGE ROBINSON: This is the Chamber's ruling on this matter: If
2 the Prosecution wishes to put in written submissions on the question of
3 exhibits, it may do so, but it must do so by Monday of next week, and then
4 on Wednesday of next week we'll have -- we'll hear oral arguments on the
6 If Mr. Kay wishes to put in a response, then you may do so, but
7 there's no obligation to do that.
8 We'll have a brief oral hearing on Wednesday of next week for
9 arguments on the exhibits.
10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Robinson.
11 MR. NICE: [Previous translation continues] ...
12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] What about all of these documents
13 and exhibits which were used during the testimony of General Stevanovic?
14 There are some 17 binders of documents, and I'm afraid that we will have
15 too great a distance from his testimony. And this pause that we're making
16 between the testimony and the admittance of documents really leaves a very
17 open possibility for misunderstanding and problems later on.
18 Mr. Nice just said that there is a binder about Racak. Yes,
19 that's right. That's within Mr. Nice's documents. And within General
20 Stevanovic's documents there are two Racak binders, and so on and so on.
21 There is a great number of documents used during the testimony
22 here that you said would be considered later.
23 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic, that's a good point. We don't
24 want too much time to pass between the witness's evidence and the
25 admission of exhibits relating to that evidence. We have that in mind.
1 What has held up our consideration of Mr. Stevanovic's exhibits was the
2 translation of the submissions from your associates. We expect to deal
3 with that sometime next week.
4 We will adjourn now for 20 minutes.
5 --- Recess taken at 10.39 a.m.
6 --- On resuming at 11.04 a.m.
7 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic, who is your next witness?
8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] My next witness is General Bozidar
10 JUDGE ROBINSON: And with what matters will he be dealing?
11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] General Delic will be testifying
12 about all the activities of the army of Yugoslavia under his command. And
13 for your information, he commanded very important units of about 14.000
14 men who controlled some 140 kilometres of the state border and several
15 towns in-depth, as well as many, many villages which comprise the area of
16 those towns and relates to all the events that are vital in 1998 and 1999.
17 JUDGE ROBINSON: Bear in mind, of course, the requirement that the
18 evidence be relevant to the indictment.
19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I am bearing in mind the fact,
20 Mr. Robinson, that Mr. Nice during many of his examinations and
21 assertions, he spoke about a pattern of behaviour on the part of the army
22 of Yugoslavia, some kind of pattern on the part of the army and the police
23 of Serbia. But now I'm just going to speak about the army of Yugoslavia.
24 And with reference to that, it's very important to see what that pattern
25 of behaviour looked like and how the army of Yugoslavia behaved, what the
1 army of Yugoslavia did throughout that period of time in order to be able
2 to see that in fact everything that Mr. Nice is implying when he uses the
3 word "pattern" in connection with the army activities is just not true or
4 correct, and you will have a chance to see what the army did over a
5 continuous period of time.
6 JUDGE ROBINSON: So the evidence of this pattern may not
7 necessarily relate to particular incidents in the indictment.
8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] They will relate to specific
9 assertions, incidents, et cetera, and the overall behaviour and conduct of
10 the army and units under his command throughout the material time that
11 he's testifying about, the time relevant for what Mr. Nice is claiming,
12 because you can't hide behind general phrases any more as to what somebody
13 did or didn't do if there are specific data, concrete facts about the
14 conduct of the Yugoslav army and how it acted.
15 JUDGE ROBINSON: And just the last question: His evidence will be
16 confined to this issue of pattern?
17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Not only to that but to concrete
18 events and his knowledge of them, of the overall situation in Kosovo and
19 Metohija or, rather, the knowledge that a commander of such a large body
20 of men can have or has. So therefore, it will relate to all the events
21 that are tied in to Mr. Nice's claims and allegations, and of course his
22 witnesses too.
23 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Kay, I wonder if you can assist me. It may be
24 impossible, but I was trying to identify any evidence so far of the
25 involvement of the 549th Motorised Brigade, which appears to be a relevant
1 army brigade, in any specific event charged in the indictment. Are you
2 able to tell me if there is any such evidence? So far I'm unable to find
4 MR. KAY: I'm unable to do that just off the top of my head
5 because the indictment refers to "Serb forces," as the Bench will know.
6 It would have to be something that will have to be looked at. It's not
7 something we've been picking out as a point when going through the
8 evidence, so I can't take that any further, I'm sorry.
9 JUDGE BONOMY: I found it referred to in events that are not in
10 the indictment --
11 MR. KAY: Right.
12 JUDGE BONOMY: -- and serious events at that, but none that appear
13 to actually be in the indictment. But however, if later you can assist, I
14 would be grateful.
15 MR. KAY: I will do.
16 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.
17 MR. NICE: Your Honours, before the witness comes in, this not
18 being in any sense his responsibility, documents, the position is that
19 we've now got an index of 629 A documents, so it's obviously in excess of
20 that number, which is more in number even than Stevanovic produced. So
21 far as we've been able to judge, none of them was listed on the 65 ter
22 listing of exhibits, and we've made inquiries to see if it's said that any
23 of them were listed 65 ter, and it appears probably not.
24 The material was first provided in B/C/S on the 14th of June, and
25 Ms. Dicklich had to arrange for all of that material to be copied and
1 scanned in order to process it because of the format in which it came in.
2 Since then, translations have been coming in daily so that it's now 269
3 with English translations and 310 without.
4 It would, of course, be possible for me to mount an argument
5 saying that all of this written material should be excluded as in defiance
6 of or in breach of your earlier rulings, and particularly attractive as a
7 possibility to do that, given the time that the accused's evidence is
8 taking and the problems that we've articulated in writing that will be
9 forthcoming with the 150-day time limit generally. However, I recognise
10 that within the documents produced there are some documents that I would
11 want to rely on, insofar as I've been able to have the advantage of an
12 assessment of them so far, there will be some documents that I would want
13 to rely on in cross-examination. But in dealing with this witness, I
14 would ask the Chamber to recognise the difficulties that we are placed
15 under and difficulties that may become apparent with particular documents
16 if they're not in translation at the time the witness comes to deal with
17 them. We have done, as with all other witnesses, everything we can to
18 assist in the presentation of the material, but there are limits to how
19 far we can or should go.
20 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Robinson.
21 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic, what is the explanation? What is
22 the explanation for these documents which you intend to exhibit not being
23 on the 65 ter exhibit list?
24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Robinson, my explanation is
25 this: First of all, the fact that I had an exceedingly short period of
1 time to supply the documents on the first list; and the second explanation
2 is that it is not unusual and that Mr. Nice would send in many documents
3 post festum, later on during the course of his examination.
4 Now, as far as the assertion that he made that he received it on
5 the 14th of June, I cannot be of assistance to you there except to tell
6 you that all the documents or, rather, all the exhibits which go with
7 General Delic's testimony were sent in on 20th of April, which means two
8 months ago.
9 JUDGE ROBINSON: But is the position that not even one of your
10 proposed exhibits was on the 65 ter exhibit list?
11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I cannot confirm that because I
12 wasn't in a position to compare all those facts and information. But I
13 did draw your attention to the fact that many archives were inaccessible
14 to me and that my associates only managed, after a long period of time, to
15 come by certain documents which are relevant for the Court here, to be
16 presented here. So when they came by the documents, they became
17 accessible, and without exception all of them were sent in on the 20th of
19 [Trial Chamber confers]
20 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I be allowed to add something,
21 Mr. Robinson?
22 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic, yes.
23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] What I wish to add is this: Many of
24 the documents are documents which Mr. Nice's office does have because
25 General Delic sent them in as an expert in the Haradinaj case.
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 JUDGE ROBINSON: I can see you're familiar with all the standard
2 arguments, Mr. Milosevic.
3 Mr. Nice, can you comment on this? Mr. Milosevic says that the
4 documents were sent on the 20th of April.
5 MR. NICE: Absolutely I can comment on that, and it's one of the
6 three points I wanted to make. The documents may have been provided to
7 Registry, none of them was provided to us until last week; and indeed a
8 second point is that when collections like this are provided by the
9 accused, he retains a control over their provision to us until the last
10 minute so that we aren't necessarily getting the complete collections,
11 we're only getting what he's finally approved to pass.
12 Now, there may be forensic reasons for that happening in light of
13 one or two documents that, as it were, slipped through in the Stevanovic
14 materials. We can understand from an entirely forensic point of view why
15 he might want to do that, but the fact of the matter is the materials were
16 here in April. If they'd been provided to us in April, we could have at
17 least started working on them because of course we do have B/C/S readers,
18 and we can start the process of analysing them even though only with a
19 limited number of our team members. So that's the answer to that point.
20 The last point I wanted to make is this: Mr. Saxon, who has been
21 getting to grips with the documents at this stage rather more in earnest
22 than I have, has identified several, or it may be many, stamped with a
23 stamp that indicates they were provided by the VJ, presumably to this
24 accused, from their archives in October 2002. So getting on for three
25 years ago.
1 Those are the points I wanted to make.
2 JUDGE ROBINSON: That partially puts paid to your contention,
3 Mr. Milosevic, that many of these documents were not accessible to you.
4 Well, the Chamber's ruling is as follows: Mr. Milosevic, you must
5 make a written application by tomorrow for the addition of all of these
6 documents that you intend to exhibit, a written application for them to be
7 added to the exhibit list with an explanation as to why they should be
9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Robinson, with respect to what
10 Mr. Nice said a moment ago about tactics, let me tell you straight away I
11 have no tactics to keep back any documents. From the moment the documents
12 are handed over to the Registrar, every document is accessible to
13 Mr. Nice's office, or can be accessible. So I never made any requests to
14 hold back any documents and not to hand documents over to his office.
15 The question is the speed at which this is done, whether this is
16 done only once the documents have been translated or whether they supply
17 them with untranslated documents, I don't know. That is out of my hands.
18 But let me repeat here and now, and this holds true for everything, that
19 everything that was handed over to the Registrar can be provided to
20 Mr. Nice's office straight away. I have no need to keep anything back or
21 make any delays in handing over the material.
22 Now, as far as your request is concerned that I should make a
23 written application for --
24 JUDGE ROBINSON: It's not a request. It's an order. It's an
25 order of the Chamber. If you intend to rely on these documents, you must
1 apply in writing to have them added to the exhibit list. You're in
2 flagrant violation of the Rules, and not for the first time.
3 In the meantime, we'll proceed hearing the evidence, but by
4 tomorrow you must have a written application for the addition of all of
5 these documents to the exhibit list, with an explanation.
6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Robinson, I understood it that
7 by handing over the documents and their lists this was done, that is to
8 say is that what you're asking now was fulfilled by handing over the
9 documents linked to the testimony of this next witness.
10 JUDGE ROBINSON: I will not comment on that. You're seeking to
11 make a mockery of the proceedings, Mr. Milosevic. Call the witness.
12 We'll deal with the witness today, but as from tomorrow any document on
13 which you intend to rely must be included in a written application to have
14 the documents admitted, with an explanation.
15 Mr. Kay.
16 MR. KAY: Your Honours, one matter just to assist the Court
17 entirely differently, on the issue of the 549th Motorised Brigade:
18 Witness K41 gave evidence at length in September of 2002, 6th of September
19 2002, on the operations of the brigade in the Prizren-Orahovac-Suva Reka
20 area, used by the Prosecution in relation to paragraph 54 of the
21 indictment, Article 7(1), criminal responsibility, and paragraphs 55. I'm
22 talking to you as I'm doing a search. Paragraph 56. The issue of
23 widespread and systematic would obviously arise. Paragraph 66, killing
24 site overview. He's in the Prosecution fillbox document. As it's within
25 Orahovac-Suva Reka area, it may be one of those units that the Prosecution
1 are relying on under the general title of "Serb forces."
2 JUDGE BONOMY: What I've been trying to do is make the link
3 between the specific reference to that force or that brigade in the
4 evidence and any of the particular crime sites that are labelled, but I
5 can't make the link. I see the point you're making.
6 MR. KAY: It's there.
7 JUDGE BONOMY: I do have the evidence of K41.
8 MR. KAY: I do remember Maisonneuve referred to this brigade and
9 the particular general and spoke of the qualities of the general. This
10 isn't because of an excessively prodigious memory but merely the fact that
11 it was a topic I was looking at fairly recently in relation to other
13 JUDGE BONOMY: And again I have -- you have identified the two
14 principal witnesses that I seem to have identified.
15 MR. KAY: Yes. Ms. Higgins has found Maisonneuve on 29th of May,
16 2002, when he gave evidence.
17 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you, Mr. Kay.
18 JUDGE ROBINSON: Let the witness be brought in.
19 MR. NICE: Just while that's happening and in light of the earlier
20 discussion, we will now seek provision of documents relating to the
21 forthcoming witness Bulatovic, which are even more voluminous in number,
22 and we'll try and get them as soon as they are possible in order that we
23 can process them as early as possible.
24 In response to Your Honour's other inquiry, Bela Crkva is also
25 within the area of responsibility.
1 [The witness entered court]
2 JUDGE ROBINSON: Let the witness make the declaration.
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak
4 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
5 JUDGE ROBINSON: You may sit.
6 WITNESS: BOZIDAR DELIC
7 [Witness answered through interpreter]
8 JUDGE ROBINSON: You may begin, Mr. Milosevic.
9 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
10 Examined by Mr. Milosevic:
11 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, General.
12 A. Good morning, Mr. Milosevic.
13 Q. General, would you please tell us where you were born and
14 introduce yourself generally, in the briefest terms, the outlines.
15 A. Your Honours, ladies and gentlemen, my name is Bozidar Delic,
16 major general of the army of Serbia and Montenegro. I was born on the
17 20th of February, 1956, in the vicinity of Djakovica in Kosovo and
19 Q. Tell us briefly what education you've had and your professional
21 A. In addition to the military academy, which I graduated from in
22 1987, I went to the command staff school as well of the army of Yugoslavia
23 and the national defence school of the army of Yugoslavia. That means
24 that with regard to training and education, I'm on a par with a doctor of
25 science, Ph.D., strategy, operations and tactics. I was also a lecturer
1 at the tactics department of the military academy, and my professional
2 title is docent.
3 Q. Thank you, General. Now, what were you during the war in Kosovo?
4 A. During the war in Kosovo, I was commander of the 549th Motorised
5 Brigade, which was located in the garrisons of Prizren and one battalion
6 was detached and located in the Djakovica garrison.
7 Q. General, you have a map beside you. Would you please show us and
8 indicate your area of responsibility.
9 A. On this map we can see my zone of responsibility. Part of it
10 cannot be seen here but my area of responsibility started from the Morina
11 border post on the state border between --
12 MR. NICE: [Previous translation continues] ... unless the
13 audiovisual booth films it for me, if the board is at that angle.
14 JUDGE ROBINSON: Let that be done.
15 MR. NICE: Thank you.
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] My area of responsibility on the
17 state border between the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia and the Republic
18 of Albania, Morina, the border post of Morina. Then along the state
19 border to the border between the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, the
20 Republic of Albania, and the Republic of Macedonia. Then the state border
21 with the Republic of Macedonia and -- that is to say between the Federal
22 Republic of Yugoslavia and Macedonia all the way up to the Peskovi
23 mountain top on Mount Sara. From Peskovi on Mount Sara, the pass of
24 Prevolac, Mount Osman, then Sar-Planina, Bukova Glava, then east of Suva
25 Reka, Precevsko Brdo, then the pass of Dulje, Luznica, and at the
1 north-east to Klecka, about one kilometre. Then east of Malisevo about
2 two kilometres, then along the valley -- along the valley of the river to
3 Beli Drim. Then the valley of Decanska Bistrica, here to Ljumbarde, the
4 village of Ljumbarde, and then Lake Radonjic, Erecka Suka, and back to the
5 Morina border post on the state border between the Federal Republic of
6 Yugoslavia and the Republic of Albania.
7 What I showed now is peacetime area of responsibility. In the war
8 there was wartime area of responsibility which included a considerably
9 smaller territory than what I showed just now.
10 Q. General, which towns and villages -- I'm actually referring to big
11 towns and -- that belonged to your zone of responsibility in war and
13 A. In addition to Prizren, where the command of my brigade was, there
14 was also Dragas, Suva Reka, Orahovac, Djakovica. But in Djakovica there
15 was another brigade too. So as far as control over Djakovica, from 1997
16 onwards I did not have Djakovica under my control, although it was within
17 my area of responsibility.
18 Q. General, throughout 1998 and until mid-June 1999, were you in
19 Kosovo and Metohija?
20 A. Yes. Throughout 1998 and 1999, I was in Kosovo and Metohija with
21 one exception, about two months when I would spend weekends with my family
22 in Belgrade.
23 Q. When you say two months, how are we supposed to understand that,
24 that once in every two months you would sometimes go to visit your family?
25 A. Yes. Say every two months I'd spend two or three days with my
2 Q. Thank you, General. Now, throughout that time that you were there
3 and where you commanded your brigade, and you explained what your area of
4 responsibility was, what happened in Kosovo and Metohija in 1999 and
5 before that in 1998?
6 A. Especially taking into account 1998 and 1999, particularly in
7 1998, there was an escalation of terrorist activity. Although terrorism
8 is a specific phenomenon, that is to say terror that reigned in Kosovo and
9 Metohija over centuries, 1998 was particularly characteristic because the
10 number of attacks against civilians, members of the Ministry of the
11 Interior and the military, escalated, and by the 30th of November, it --
12 JUDGE ROBINSON: Are you reading from a document?
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is a little notebook of mine,
14 just there in order to aid my memory in terms of dates, whatever, but if
15 you wish --
16 JUDGE ROBINSON: When did you make those notes?
17 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: He said in the hotel.
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Over the past ten days.
19 [Trial Chamber confers]
20 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. If it aids you, you may use the notes that
21 you made.
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
23 MR. NICE: Though it may not arise, presumably on the basis that
24 they will be available for inspection by us if we wish to have a look at
1 JUDGE ROBINSON: If they are not personal notes, I see no reason
2 why they shouldn't be.
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Of course. Of course. There is no
4 problem whatsoever.
5 In 1997, as far as I can remember there were 70 terrorist attacks
6 over the entire year. Until the 30th of November 1998, there were about
7 1.470 attacks.
8 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
9 Q. General, you indicated just now that there was a sharp rise in
10 terrorism in 1998, an escalation of terrorism. You were there. Why did
11 this escalation of terrorism occur in 1998?
12 A. In 1998, if we were to look at the individual months of 1998, in
13 January and February, in view of the situation as it was in Kosovo and
14 Metohija, were the usual thing. There were a few attacks then. However,
15 from the month of March onwards, there was a particularly large number of
16 attacks against civilians, a large number of attacks against members of
17 the MUP.
18 As for the army of Yugoslavia, the attacks on the army of
19 Yugoslavia were launched only at the state border during those first few
21 As for attacks on the military, they did not happen at that time.
22 That is to say, barracks were not attacked, and the army was in-depth as
23 far as the territory is concerned.
24 Q. General, who carried out these attacks already in the late 1990s?
25 A. Although terrorist groups have been present in Kosovo and Metohija
1 with different ideologies but always with the same objective in mind since
2 the Second World War, in the 1990s an organisation appeared. We call it
3 the KLA, although the first part of its name doesn't sound right.
4 "Ushtria Clirimtare e Kosoves" is its name in Albanian, or, rather, the
5 Kosovo Liberation Army.
6 JUDGE ROBINSON: You didn't answer the question asked by
7 Mr. Milosevic. Why was there an escalation of terrorism in 1998. Are you
8 able to say why there was an escalation?
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can explain, however, that will
10 require some more time.
11 JUDGE ROBINSON: Well, very briefly.
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We would have to go back to 1995, to
13 the Dayton agreement. The Albanian delegation expected that they would be
14 invited to Dayton, to the United States of America, and that at these
15 talks the Albanian issue would be raised as well. However, that did not
16 happen. Although the Albanian delegation was present, they were told that
17 in Dayton it is only the problems of peoples who were in conflict in
18 Bosnia were being dealt with. They were not in a conflict, and
19 practically there was no place for them in those talks. I think that a
20 diplomat from the State Department who said that, if I remember correctly,
21 his name was Robert Perrina.
22 In a way, this was a green light for a crisis to start in Kosovo.
23 So from 1995 onwards, there has been a sharp rise in the number of
24 terrorist attacks. In 1997, I already mentioned how many there were, only
25 about 70, whereas in 1998 there were 1.470.
1 Quite simply, they wished to force the international community to
2 deal with that purported problem of Albanians in Kosovo and Metohija.
3 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
4 Q. General, in the briefest possible terms, can you tell us what you
5 know about this organisation you mentioned, the UCK.
6 A. The UCK, or the KLA, is a terrorist group with a very strange
7 ideology. Even certain international officials spoke about that. Its
8 ideology was created by an illegal movement from the beginning of the
9 1980s, that is to say from 1982 onwards. To be more specific, that was
10 called the People's Movement of Kosovo.
11 MR. NICE: Before we move on, the witness's evidence is coming to
12 the borders of expertise. No report's been served, of course. But for
13 these last few observations, which are clearly not sort of nuts and bolts
14 matters of fact with which the Chamber may be more concerned so far as
15 this witness is concerned, it might be helpful to know on what he's
16 relying for these expressions of clear opinion.
17 I'm not anxious to put -- or have the Court put particularly
18 strict parameters around evidence of a witness like this, but nevertheless
19 as we are going to hear evidence, or if we're going to hear evidence of
20 this kind, it would be helpful to know what his sources are.
21 JUDGE ROBINSON: For my own part I don't find it to be -- the
22 witness of an expert nature, and I wouldn't stop the evidence on that
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This terrorist group, as I've
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 already said, had a strange ideology. It can be said that it moved in two
2 directions, basically. It's a fascist Stalinist ideology, because part of
3 that group was made up of the remains and the heirs of the fascist
4 ideology from the Second World War. The persons who belonged to the SS
5 division of Skenderbeg, to the Balists, that was that group. The other
6 group were the hard-core Stalinists, supported as far back as the days of
7 Enver Hoxha, and then Sali Berisha continued to support them. That was
8 that group.
9 That was the ideology of the Kosovo Liberation Army.
10 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
11 Q. Did the KLA have any political party or movement backing it?
12 A. The KLA did not have a political party. This movement or, as they
13 called it, the Popular Movement of Kosovo, the MPK, was created by persons
14 who, after attempting to topple the constitutional order in 1981, fled to
15 Switzerland and Germany. They created this movement of Kosovo, the
16 Popular Movement of Kosovo. Balli Kombitar is the fascist organisation
17 that it basically belonged to.
18 Q. General, in Kosovo and Metohija, apart from the KLA, was there any
19 other terrorist organisation?
20 A. There were several terrorist groups in Kosovo. However, there was
21 an organisation that was called FARK, in Albanian it is called Forcat e
22 Armatosura e Republikes se Kosoves. This armed formation first appeared
23 in June 1998 in Kosovo. It spent about three months in Kosovo, and it
24 reappeared in 1999. This armed formation belongs to this illegal
25 government of the Republic of Kosovo that was headed by Bujar Bukoshi.
1 These units were established by the minister of defence in this illegal
2 government, Ahmet Krasniqi, who was killed, I think, in Albania on the
3 23rd of September, 1998
4 Q. General, what was the difference between the UCK and FARK? What
5 were their goals?
6 A. As far as goals are concerned, their goals were the same,
7 identical; that is to say, bringing down the constitutional order of the
8 Federal Republic of Yugoslavia and separating the territory of Kosovo and
9 Metohija from it. However, their approach was different at different
10 times. The KLA only espoused brutal force, and they used it even against
11 their fellow countrymen who thought different, and Serbs and other
12 Albanians in Kosovo and Metohija.
13 On the other hand, FARK, Rugova's FARK, that is to say Rugova on
14 the one hand, advocated a peaceful settlement of the Kosovo problem over
15 the longer term, and on the other hand through his illegal Ministry of
16 Defence from the 1990s he advocated military organisation and also
17 preparation for an armed uprising in Kosovo.
18 May I just say one more thing? In 1993, the first minister of
19 defence in that illegal government of Kosovo, Hajzer Hajzeraj, together
20 with like-minded individuals, conceived the first plan for an armed
21 uprising in Kosovo and Metohija. This plan involved gathering weapons in
22 Albania and establishing 100 platoons and 200 companies in Kosovo and
23 Metohija, establishing several brigades that would be grouped in two
24 corps; that is to say, the Metohija Corps and the Kosovo Corps.
25 Q. General, based on their activities, their conduct, was that a
1 terrorist organisation or could you qualify it in some other terms?
2 A. Beyond doubt the Liberation Army of Kosovo was considered, and
3 using all parameters can be considered as a terrorist organisation. As
4 I've already told you, its very rapid spread and expansion in Kosovo was a
5 result of the use of brutal force or, as we call it, "the Kalashnikov
7 This organisation was called a terrorist organisation by certain
8 international officials as well. I think that Mr. Gelbard, an envoy of
9 the US State Department for the Balkans, in February, if I remember it
10 correctly, on the 22nd of February, 1998, in Pristina, said that the KLA
11 was undoubtedly a terrorist organisation and that the United States
12 strongly condemned terrorist activities of this organisation. He stated
13 this in a meeting with the Albanian representatives. I know for a fact
14 that Ibrahim Rugova was there, as were some other prominent Albanian
16 Q. General, your experience from this period of time in 1998 and 1999
17 when it comes to armed activities of this organisation, did it only entail
18 conflict with terrorism or anything else?
19 A. Based on everything that was happening on the ground, based on
20 everything that I experienced personally since I was born in the territory
21 of Kosovo and Metohija, and I know the mentality of the Albanian people
22 well, so judging on all of that, I can say that this was a conflict with
23 terrorism and terror.
24 Q. In briefest possible terms, tell us, what were they waging
25 struggle for?
1 A. In briefest, terms, if I were to give the briefest possible
2 answer, then I would tell you that they wanted to detach the territory of
3 Kosovo and Metohija and annex it to the territory of the Republic of
5 Q. General, you brought with you the videotape which was recorded at
6 the oath-taking ceremony in the vicinity of Djakovica in July of 1998.
7 Could we see the footage, please, and would you please identify the
8 persons seen on the tape.
9 This can be seen in tab 1.
10 JUDGE ROBINSON: Don't show it yet.
11 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
12 [Trial Chamber confers]
13 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, let the video be played.
14 [Videotape played]
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is the oath-taking ceremony of
16 the KLA in the vicinity of Junik in Djakovica municipality. The man
17 reading out the text of the oath is Hajdin Abazi, nicknamed Lum Haxhiu.
18 He's a teacher by profession, born in the vicinity of Gnjilane. In 1998,
19 he was in Junik serving as a kind of a spokesperson of the units in the
20 Dukagjin operative area.
21 Members are taking an oath stating that they would fight until the
22 last drop of blood or, rather, until they are united with the Republic of
24 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
25 Q. Very well. In 1998, what I wanted us to see is what concerns
1 their goal, which is unification with the Republic of Albania, and we
2 could see that in this footage.
3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Now, let us please look at the next
4 video footage, which is also the oath-taking ceremony of those who have
5 the same goal, showing the same person.
6 Would you please play the tape.
7 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
8 Q. Is that the same month, June of 1998?
9 A. Late May or early June.
10 [Videotape played]
11 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
12 Q. Is that the same person?
13 A. Yes. We can see Hajdin Abazi here. He was widely known there as
14 Lum Haxhiu. Here he is with Mr. Holbrooke in Junik.
15 The man carrying shoes here is called Sefedin Kuci, former JNA
17 This is Lum Haxhiu.
18 Q. All right. Thank you.
19 A. We can see some leaders here. Veton Surroi was on the footage.
20 He was -- he attended the meeting as well.
21 Q. All right. So in 1998 they pledged in their oath to unite with
22 Albania. This was just several months after Mr. Gelbard claiming --
23 claimed that they were a terrorist organisation. And we could see a
24 representative of the US administration with that same person advocating
25 unification with Albania. They were together in Junik.
1 Now let us see something relating to the bringing in of weapons,
2 and let us see who the veterans of the KLA are.
3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Would you please play the following
5 [Videotape played]
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think that this person comes from
7 the Krasniqi family. He is an Albanian. This is a typical manner in
8 which weapons arrived in Kosovo. This is also the area of Junik.
9 We can see Mr. Clark here.
10 We can see Mr. Holbrooke here.
11 Mr. Clark here was referred to as the KLA veteran, whereas
12 Mr. Holbrooke was called "Golden Kalashnikov."
13 MR. NICE: Your Honour, that last clip was clearly an amalgam of
14 different events, I think, unless it was itself was a film or documentary,
15 I don't know what it was. It might help if we know what its number is so
16 we can find out what we're dealing with.
17 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic, was that one continuous clip or
18 was it a collection of different events? Or can the general say?
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I can say. If you wish, I can
21 This is one film and only certain segments have been abbreviated,
22 cut, because the entire film runs for longer than an hour. In Belgrade, I
23 saw this film at the Commission for Cooperation with The Hague Tribunal.
24 Since Mr. Tomanovic, the attorney-at-law, put in a request to be provided
25 this film, he was the one who made this abbreviated version.
1 This film was also shown on several TV stations in my country. I
2 believe it was also broadcast here in the Netherlands.
3 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
4 Q. We saw the last clip and saw that it had Dutch subtitles. You
5 were able to see that there are several clips. One refers to the
6 oath-taking ceremony and unification with Albania in June of 1998, and
7 then in the next clip we saw how those people met and talked with
8 Mr. Holbrooke in July of 1998. And then in 1999, we saw them greeting
9 Mr. Clark as the KLA veteran and referring to Mr. Holbrooke as the "Golden
10 Kalashnikov." So this describes the political background of the events
11 which later on Clinton's administration tried to depict as a reaction to
12 some humanitarian catastrophe, and there was none of that in 1998.
13 MR. NICE: Evidence coming from the accused; wrong place.
14 JUDGE BONOMY: Are you able -- Mr. Delic, are you able to put a
15 date on the last segment of the film?
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As for the date, it probably exists
17 on the tape. I don't remember the date, but I know that this was the
18 donors' conference during the elections in the States, the donors' dinner
19 during the last elections in the States, in honour of Mr. Kerry.
20 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I continue?
21 JUDGE ROBINSON: In honour of whom?
22 JUDGE BONOMY: John Kerry. So that means it was in the year 2004.
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. This was a fund raising dinner
24 in honour of Mr. Kerry. It is obvious here that this person whom we can
25 see on the screen right now made footage in 1998 and 1999 about these
1 visits to Kosovo. Also, the meetings with Albanian diaspora in the United
2 States was filmed as well, and then the last segment comes from this fund
3 raising dinner.
4 So I understood this to be a film that this person filmed about
5 himself and about the activities of Albanian immigrants in America.
6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I continue?
7 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Milosevic.
8 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
9 Q. General, in order not to visit a very distant past, in view of the
10 fact that the struggle against terrorism has been going on for many years,
11 I would like us to focus on 1998.
12 Would you please describe the document entitled "Excerpt from the
13 annual intelligence report on electronic reconnaissance and
14 anti-electronic operations" for 1998, which can be found in tab 4. Would
15 you please first tell us how you obtained this document, and is it a
16 reliable, proper document?
17 A. Yes, Mr. Milosevic. I found that. So this is the excerpt from
18 the annual intelligence report on electronic reconnaissance and
19 anti-electronic operations for 1998. This excerpt, or this annual report
20 was compiled by the 52nd Company for electronic reconnaissance and
21 anti-electronic operations within the Pristina Corps.
22 This is a perfectly valid document. This is the company who
23 performed these tasks for the purposes of the Pristina Corps. Some of the
24 members of this company were located in my barracks in Prizren and also in
25 another barracks in Djakovica.
1 Q. All right. So this is an excerpt from the annual report on
2 electronic reconnaissance and anti-electronic operations for 1998.
3 A. Yes, Mr. Milosevic.
4 Q. Would you please take a look, General, as I asked you to explain,
5 please take a look at several segments which I underlined in this report.
6 We excerpted just several pages here.
7 On page 30 that is here as the first page, it says: "On the 13th
8 of May, following two or three days of inactivity, the terrorists' radio
9 communications suddenly increased in intensity as did terrorist actions."
10 Would you please be so kind and read it yourself.
11 A. Yes, I saw that. On the 13th of May, it says: "Following two or
12 three days of inactivity, the terrorists' radio communications suddenly
13 increased in intensity as did terrorist actions. There was a period of
14 inactivity during the visit of the American representative Richard Gelbard
15 following which the number of the attacks against the members of the RS
16 MUP increased in several places in Kosovo and Metohija, on the
17 Pristina-Pec and Pristina-Djakovica roads. We discovered a new frequency
18 - 154.570 megahertz."
19 Q. What about the 14th? Please read out just the bits that you
20 believe to be most important in this document.
21 A. On the 14th of May --
22 Q. General, bear in mind that you have to read slowly to allow the
23 interpreters to keep up with you.
24 A. On the 14th of May, and it says here specifically from 2240 hours
25 to 2315 hours, there was intensive conversation between two speakers.
1 They were Guri-3 and Ekoj, the speakers. From this piece of information
2 -- or, rather, from this conversation we are able to conclude the
3 following: That one of these units should prepare for an attack on a
4 police patrol and that that should take place somewhere in the Drenica
5 region but that on the following day in the evening they would receive an
6 exact message and that someone should go to the railway station for
7 destruction, it says.
8 After the attack -- after the fighting, rather, the group should
9 take care and look after itself, not to enter into any difficult
11 So that was the conversation. Guri-3 is one of the participants
12 in the conversation. In Serbian, "guri" means "stone."
13 Q. You mean in Albanian.
14 A. Yes, I meant Albanian. Slip of the tongue. And the Serbian
15 translation of "Guri" is stone, and he was one of the very active
16 participants in this radio communication.
17 Q. Then this goes on to the 14th of May where it says that the
18 terrorists, after the attack, were surrounded by strong forces.
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. A group of terrorists from -- what does this P/Z mean? Kodra,
21 what that's that? It's the call-sign Kodra?
22 A. Yes, I remember that. I even remember the attack. It was in my
23 area on the 14th of May, and it was one of the attacks on the police
24 patrol in a place called Zrze. At the crossroads of the Prizren-Djakovica
25 roads and the local road running towards the village of Ratkovac.
1 And you can see here that the terrorists say they were surrounded
2 by strong MUP forces and that they are seeking reinforcements and
3 assistance in the form of men and ammunition.
4 Q. All right. Now take a look at the following page. What is
5 happening on the 10th of June? A bus is mentioned that was expected.
6 They were expecting a bus, it says.
7 A. Yes. This is about a bus which was supposed to bring in the money
8 they had gathered for the purchase of weapons, ammunition, and other
10 Q. Now look at a few paragraphs further on. On the 17th of June,
11 what does it say there? There's mention of some consultation at the
12 headquarters in Drenica.
13 A. Yes, the village of Dobri Dol is mentioned, north of Iglarevo.
14 Q. At that time, General, did you have any information and
15 intelligence about the existence of any kind of headquarters in Drenica in
16 that village of Dobri Dol?
17 A. The intelligence we received electronically through the radio
18 matrix spoke about the fact that one of those staffs or headquarters of a
19 high level was in Drenica and that one was in the surrounding area of
20 Djakovica. Later on it was the Dukagjin Operative Zone.
21 Q. Now, what does the 21st of June speak about, about an expected
22 attack on a police checkpoint at Rudnik?
23 A. Yes, that's right. The village of Rudnik, that means along the
24 road from Pec to Mitrovica. And there was a police checkpoint there, and
25 on several occasions the checkpoint was attacked.
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 Here it says that there was grouping taking place in the Mamusa
2 village - that's my area - where there was to be a meeting of the KLA
3 leaders. That seems to be a little strange. Well, strange. Actually,
4 Mamusa is inhabited -- 80 per cent of Mamusa inhabitants are Turks, a
5 Turkish population. They are the autochthonous Turks, as we call them.
6 And most of them are in the Prizren municipality and they are only to be
7 found in this village of Mamusa.
8 Q. Could you explain to us why this is strange, why this appears
9 change to you, whether because the Turks were not members of the KLA or
10 for some other reason.
11 A. We have no cases of any Turk being a member of the KLA. But as I
12 say, the place was chosen because nobody would expect a meeting to be held
13 at a place like that, and they felt they were safe, they'd be safe if they
14 were to hold the meeting there.
15 Q. Now take a look at the next page, 33.
16 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic, bear in mind that we already have
17 a lot of evidence from your witnesses on the KLA as an organisation, its
18 origins and so on.
19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, I am bearing that in mind,
20 Mr. Robinson.
21 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
22 Q. General, please, would you move on, let's do this as quickly as we
23 can, and just indicate the most characteristic points so that I don't have
24 to quote from the passages. But I have jotted them down for myself, but
25 I'm sure you will select your own.
1 A. At the beginning of page 33, the 28th of June, something that
2 happened in Prizren linked to my own barracks there. This participant
3 whose name was Korizi, around my barracks constantly from 1997 right up
4 until the end of the war, they monitored the movement of the army, and
5 every vehicle leaving the barracks compound, reports would be sent, and on
6 that day goniometrics showed us that on the 28th of June right near the
7 barracks at a warehouse for construction material this person Korizi was
8 to be found. We called the police and attempted to find him. There were
9 some unfinished houses that were being built in that area, under
10 construction. And as you can see here, it says there was an unsuccessful
11 search conducted by our security organs because he managed to take refuge
12 in some bunker and weren't able to find him.
13 Now, following on from that report, we can see --
14 JUDGE ROBINSON: If you intend to go on at some length, I think we
15 should take the break now. It's past the time for the break.
16 We will adjourn for 20 minutes.
17 Mr. Kay.
18 MR. KAY: Yes. Just on the other matter again of relevance,
19 Witness K32, who testified 17th, 22nd of July, 2002, had important
20 evidence on the activities of the 549th and evidence concerning this
21 witness, specific evidence concerning this witness.
22 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic, just bear in mind the point where
23 we ended so we can take it up when we return. We will adjourn for 20
25 MR. NICE: Your Honours, just one matter, nothing to do with this
1 witness who can indeed withdraw, to do with something that ought to be
2 covered in private session, with your leave.
3 JUDGE ROBINSON: In private session?
4 MR. NICE: Yes, please, but nothing to do with this witness.
5 JUDGE ROBINSON: Private session, yes.
6 [Private session]
1 [Open session]
2 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Milosevic.
3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Robinson, before I continue with
4 the examination-in-chief, may I give you a piece of information, and this
5 is it: I have checked out with Mr. Tomanovic what Mr. Nice mentioned,
6 that on some documents they're dated 2002. Those are dates which signify
7 the time when the copy was made and confirm that the copy is an authentic
8 representation of the original within the same institution, that is to say
9 the general staff of the army of Yugoslavia. My associates, with respect
10 to the activities of the units that were under the command of General
11 Delic, received at the end of last year, that is to say 2004, at the end,
12 over 10.400 documents which they had to look through, and then of those
13 10.400 documents, which of course it was impossible to present here along
14 with the testimony of a witness, they reduced that number to 620-odd
15 documents. So that that was the time needed to do that, and I should like
16 you to bear that in mind. Of course, that includes over a hundred
17 videotapes, and they selected just 20 of those, about 20. A great
18 selection had to be made because only six per cent of those documents were
19 selected to be presented here of the 10.400 documents that were in
20 existence, as I said. And as far as Mr. Nice said, that there were some A
21 markings along with the number, there was an A, A always refers to the
22 English translation, so it is not a new document. If the number is, say,
23 333 of the original document, then 333 A would be the English version, the
24 English translation.
25 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic, what you just said you can include
1 in the document which you must present tomorrow by way of explanation.
2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Fine, Mr. Robinson.
3 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
4 Q. General, on page 33 of the report we were dealing with, at the
5 bottom, towards the bottom of the page there is a date there, 21st of July
6 1998, and it says that they continually monitored the movement of our
7 forces and kept checking the situation at the positions they had seized.
8 Who is the "they"? Who monitored whom? Tell us a little about that in
9 greater detail.
10 A. As I've already said, all movements of the armed forces and the
11 police, whether from their barracks or along the roads, the communication
12 lines, were monitored from set positions, and reports were sent out to the
13 KLA headquarters and other KLA positions in-depth, in the rear, about the
14 movements of every column and even every individual military or police
16 Q. Thank you, General. Now on page 41, paragraph 5, the date there
17 is the 25th of April 1998, there is a dialogue between somebody there.
18 Now, who is this speaking and what is that all about?
19 A. Page 41, you said.
20 Q. Yes. Paragraph 5.
21 JUDGE KWON: What is the date again?
22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The 25th of April.
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Here quite obviously we're dealing
24 with a conversation between two KLA members, and the first says: "Many
25 Serbs are moving out of this area here."
1 And the second person says: "Just let them go. We don't need
2 them here, this is ours."
3 Then the first person: "Yes, if we keep on frightening them like
4 this, no one will stay."
5 Number 2: "Many army and police members' families have moved out
6 of Djakovica recently. When the other Serbs find out about that, they're
7 going to leave too."
8 Number 1, the first speaker: "Don't talk about anything on the
9 phone, because the Serbs can hear it. They can get the information. Tell
10 Ruzda to say nothing over the phone. Did you get the money?"
11 And then the line breaks off there.
12 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
13 Q. On page 42, paragraph 7, we have the 8th of June, 1998, as the
14 date, and we have somebody's words saying: "We were told here in
15 Switzerland that everybody from 18 to 55 to put on --" "We were told here
16 in Switzerland that an order was issued for everyone between 18 and 55 to
17 put on a KLA uniform." Who is this speaking? What's this about?
18 A. Another participant in a conversation monitored, calling up from
19 Switzerland, calling one of his relatives, and he's asking whether that
20 piece of information is correct, that the KLA is mobilising one and all
21 and making lists for all the individuals in Kosovo and Metohija,
22 especially in the villages, of individuals ranging between the ages of 18
23 and 55.
24 Q. A little in front of that the date is the 11th of May, and it
25 says: "The KLA is everywhere, some of us are here, too. We'll get there
1 from Germany in no time. We hear the vicinity of Decani is full of our
2 people. Be careful about what you do, we don't want to die for nothing."
3 What does that refer to?
4 A. That is also a conversation. One person was from Metohija and the
5 other person was in Germany, and they were having a conversation.
6 Q. Now, on that same page --
7 MR. NICE: The interesting problematic area here: The witness
8 doesn't produce this material himself. It seems we're now firmly in the
9 area of some kind of intercepted material. We didn't produce material, I
10 think, in this way. We produced intercepts properly sourced and evidenced
11 with reports in advance. Not foreshadowed by the 65 ter summary, no
12 report. How am I going to deal with it? Is this confidential or secret
13 material of a kind that's going to be available to me, or are we going to
14 get this report and nothing more? Another example of the real difficulty
15 of this accused determinedly not serving material like this in advance
16 with reports, not using the provisions of 89(F), and leaving the
17 Prosecution in a very restricted position so far as assisting the Trial
18 Chamber by cross-examination in due course is concerned. The Chamber may
19 decide it's outside the area for which this witness is most likely to be
20 helpful; that's a matter for the Chamber.
21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Robinson, the witness has
22 indicated the origins of this document, and he said that it was a unit
23 which dealt with electronic reconnaissance and anti-electronic equipment
24 and said that part of that unit was located within the frameworks of his
25 own unit. He indicated the source of the material, so we're dealing with
1 information and intelligence that a specialised military unit came by by
2 listening in to the radio communication going on among the KLA terrorist
3 organisation, and the witness explained all that.
4 JUDGE ROBINSON: What isn't clear to me, Mr. Milosevic and the
5 witness, is what puts this witness in a position to offer an
6 interpretation as to these passages in the intercepts?
7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I hope, Mr. Robinson, you notice
8 that the witness very often says, "This happened in my vicinity," or "in
9 the vicinity of our barracks," or words to that effect, or "we called up
10 the police to find the perpetrators," the individuals, and the police were
11 unsuccessful in their searches, and so forth. But I'm going to ask the
12 witness now to give us any additional information if he feels it necessary
13 how he comes to be in a position to be able to provide us with
14 explanations with respect to this report and these excerpts about
15 electronic reconnaissance and anti-electronic operations.
16 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
17 Q. Can you add anything to that, General?
18 A. This is an annual intelligence report, and annual intelligence
19 reports are compiled at the end of a year, calendar year. However, they
20 would not have any value as far as I was concerned as a piece of
21 information and intelligence had I just received them at the end of the
22 year. What happened was this was on a daily basis. Whenever necessary,
23 from one minute to the next, from one hour to the next, I would receive
24 information and intelligence coming in which was of vital importance to me
25 about the units or parts of units. One was in the barracks in Prizren and
1 the other in my barracks in Djakovica. And the information provided was
2 even more detailed. Of course, we weren't able to include all the pieces
3 of information and intelligence in the annual report itself.
4 JUDGE BONOMY: Can you explain, Mr. Delic, why the dates jump
5 about in the -- they're not all in sequence.
6 JUDGE KWON: Just once. If you could take a look at page 38 in
7 B/C/S, Mr. Delic. The bottom of the page ends up with the report dated
8 13th of December. You follow? And we are -- and we are missing page 40,
9 and then from page 41 it begins with 20th of April. Is this a document
10 which is contiguous? Can you explain that?
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes. This report contains many
12 more pages, and it also involves many different areas. One of the areas
13 are the intercepts of conversations between terrorists. What you see here
14 is not really followed by the dates. I have the opportunity of seeing the
15 entire report. These are dates that have to do with terrorism. But
16 probably because the legal advisors asked for this unit to provide
17 something which would be of interest and which pertained to my area of
18 responsibility primarily, that is probably why they selected these
19 particular pages. And that is why there are these interruptions, in a
21 JUDGE BONOMY: But that doesn't deal with the question that's
22 being asked. It goes to December and then we're back in April on
23 subsequent pages. Now, what's the explanation for that?
24 JUDGE KWON: Given this is an annual report.
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] My only explanation of this could be
1 is that this report follows dozens of different areas, and that is why
2 there can be this kind of page difference, because there were excerpts
3 from different areas that pertain to my zone.
4 MR. NICE: Well, Your Honours, it's now -- it's now, in my
5 submission, quite clear this evidence shouldn't be allowed in. In the
6 Prosecution's case with intercepts, there was a careful and meticulous
7 presentation with either evidence of who had listened to the intercept and
8 a setting out of the circumstances, or the intercept itself available.
9 Here we've got some selection of material, apparently made by the
10 accused's associates. The witness himself hasn't made the selection, so
11 he's in no position to say whether it's representative or not. We haven't
12 got any of the intercepts themselves. We haven't got anybody who says
13 they listened to them and wrote them down. How can it be of any value to
15 In the circumstances, where there are apparently 600 exhibits and
16 where this witness may have matters of detail on issues in the indictment
17 to deal with, can we not move on?
18 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Kay, does this go to admissibility?
19 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for Mr. Kay, please.
20 MR. KAY: In the Prosecution case when we had issues of
21 admissibility of the intercepts, the Prosecution initially presented that
22 evidence in the forms of just transcripts and eventually, because the
23 evidence concerned the acts and conduct of the accused, were forced to
24 bring evidence that was more proximate to the production of the materials
25 into evidence, and the Trial Chamber will remember the particular witness
1 who gave evidence about those intercepts.
2 In this case here we're not concerned with evidence that is
3 relevant to the acts and conduct of the accused, more peripheral evidence
4 dealing with the background to issues within the case, which seems to
5 arise from this report that was produced in 1998 demonstrating the
6 existence of this kind of material and what it displayed in terms of
7 background at that time to events that were happening within Kosovo.
8 In our submission, for the limited purposes that this evidence
9 goes towards the indictment, it is relevant evidence as far as it goes to
10 the case, and in those circumstances --
11 JUDGE ROBINSON: What's the limited purpose?
12 MR. KAY: It's the background to the indictment, the strength of
13 the KLA, the KLA activities, and the policy of the KLA which arises within
14 this report. And for those purposes, this witness is giving evidence
15 about these materials which apparently were in the possession of the VJ at
16 that time in 1998 and the issues that they were aware that the KLA were
17 involved in conducting. And in that regard, the state of mind of the
18 commanders of VJ brigades, such as this particular witness or other
19 witnesses, is obviously relevant to issues concerning the state of mind of
20 the accused in 1998, which is when I take --
21 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Nice says that the witness himself didn't
22 listen to the intercepts. He didn't write the -- down -- he didn't write
23 down the passages, the transcript.
24 MR. KAY: He wouldn't have, and no one expects a general to have
25 been involved in that particular form of event. What he is, he's
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 producing materials that go to the state of mind, if you like, of the
2 general and other -- other members of the VJ, and by that the state of
3 mind that is relevant for this accused in relation to issues within this
4 indictment. This is part of the materials that was in existence at the
6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you.
7 [Trial Chamber confers]
8 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Nice.
9 MR. NICE: Just to remind the Chamber, it's not a question of the
10 Prosecution being forced to do something. What happened was that
11 intercepts were produced to witnesses who, as with all intercepts,
12 listened to the intercept in their entirety. The witness was either able
13 to say something about who the people speaking were or sometimes about the
14 context, or both. The intercepts were then marked for identification, and
15 the Chamber's standard was that it was required that we produce a witness
16 or the witness who could deal with the provenance and the technicalities
17 and mechanics of provenance of the documents otherwise marked for
18 identification. That's the standard that the Chamber set, and there's no
19 reason why it should be any different. They didn't all concern the acts
20 and conducts of the accused specifically; they contained a wide range of
21 matters, including his own acts and conduct.
22 Second thing is, this is clearly a selection. We don't know the
23 criteria upon which the selection has been made, and I'm not going to be
24 able to ask the associates about it, and I'm not going to be able to ask
25 this witness about it either.
1 JUDGE ROBINSON: The Chamber was minded to require that a better
2 foundation be laid for the admission of this evidence, but bearing in mind
3 that the witness has given evidence that he read these transcripts, we
4 believe that a sufficient foundation has been laid, and we'll hear the
5 evidence accordingly.
6 But, Mr. Milosevic, bear in mind that we already have evidence on
7 the background leading up to the conflict. This is repetitive. If you
8 must deal with it, then deal with it as briefly as possible and let's move
9 on to another matter.
10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I shall try to save time,
11 Mr. Robinson, but you saw from what the witness said at the very beginning
12 that he commanded units that covered a very big part of the territory, and
13 many of the accusations levelled have to do with things that happened
14 precisely in that part of the territory. So we have to see what the
15 military knew and what the military did in that part of the territory
16 where Mr. Nice claims certain things happened the way he formulated it and
17 the way he saw it.
18 As for this remark made by Mr. Kwon or, rather, this observation
19 made by Mr. Kwon, there is no doubt that it wasn't my associates who made
20 these cuts in these reports. In the first part, it has to do with
21 specific events, and it goes all the way to the end of December. And then
22 on page 41, there are communications between them and there are direct
23 quotations. Then again, in terms of dates, again they go back to 1998.
24 As for Mr. Nice's remark that he always tried to explain who and
25 how obtained these intercepts, I hope that the witness explained very
1 clearly that this was done by a special unit of the army of Yugoslavia
2 through electronic surveillance.
3 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic, I did not call on you to speak. I
4 had ruled in your favour. If I am going to rule in your favour having
5 heard Mr. Nice and Mr. Kay, I don't call on you, so you don't need to
6 address the issue any more. Let's move on.
7 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
8 Q. Now that we're on page 42, General, in this paragraph that has to
9 do with the 8th of June, the one that you already quoted, when Switzerland
10 was mentioned. At the beginning of the paragraph it says: "The
11 electricity poles that were knocked down - if anyone asks, tell them the
12 Serbs did it."
13 And then 2 is probably the other interlocutor: "You have a rifle,
14 you don't care if you get killed."
15 1: "We were told that within two weeks a decision will be made
16 for international troops to enter Kosovo. We were told here in Germany
17 that all of us must voluntarily donate 1.000 Deutschmarks respectively for
19 What does that show? He mentions what was said to them. He's
20 speaking from Germany, and he's saying that they were told that
21 international forces are to enter Kosovo. What is this all about?
22 A. In this first part, Mr. Milosevic, since at the beginning of the
23 year a considerable part of the territory of Kosovo and Metohija came
24 under terrorist control, the main transmission lines were broken down
25 between Kosovo and Metohija. That's probably the reference that was made.
1 And in this second part, this is a well-known fact: In Germany,
2 Switzerland, and other Western European countries, it was already
3 Bukoshi's illegal government that imposed a tax, and until 1998 it was 3
4 per cent of all the income of all Albanians, and later it was raised to 5
5 per cent. In addition to that, the KLA levied its own tax depending on
6 the income of each and every Albanian, and this fund was called The
7 Homeland Is Calling. Those were the contributions that were used for
8 buying weapons later on in Albania and other countries.
9 Q. General, and what is mentioned here, that they were told that
10 within two weeks' time a decision would be made for international forces
11 to enter Kosovo. Did that have anything to do with the intensification of
12 their activity?
13 A. Certainly. I saw in several sections of these reports that
14 people, Albanians in Western European countries, are telling those that
15 are in Kosovo and Metohija that they should persevere for another week or
16 two and that there would certainly be an intervention by international
18 Q. Thank you, General. On page 49, the date is the 26th of
19 September, 1998. It says: "From unofficial Siptar sources we found out
20 that there are currently more than 5.000 members of the KLA." Whose
21 knowledge is this?
22 A. This is already the month of September. This comes from several
23 intercepts. That is how this fact was arrived at.
24 If I'm allowed to say a few things here that are very important.
25 Our estimates showed that in the month of September, after the
1 anti-terrorist drive carried out by the army of Yugoslavia and the forces
2 of the Ministry of the Interior, those anti-terrorist actions were in
3 accordance with a particular plan and they went on for two months. The
4 number of terrorists was 25 to 30.000 in the month of June and July, and
5 it was brought down to only 5.000 then. Many of them threw their weapons
6 away, and a number crossed over to Albania.
7 So in the month of September in the territory of Kosovo and
8 Metohija, according to our estimates, there were about 5.000 of them.
9 JUDGE KWON: General, how do you know the source of this
10 information as to the number of KLA in the several intercepts?
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I've already said that this is an
12 annual report and that it was made on the basis of daily reports. So
13 probably on the basis of several pieces of information that showed that
14 the number of members of the KLA in that period was brought down to about
16 As for our own information, through our security service we had
17 information daily about the KLA. And independently from this, our
18 estimate was that after the anti-terrorist drive in Kosovo, there were --
19 JUDGE KWON: My question is not the number of KLA but the source
20 of information. This passage specifically refers to the unofficial Siptar
21 sources, but you referred to several intercepts.
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
23 JUDGE KWON: My question was how do you remember that this was
24 based on several intercepts?
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It says here from unofficial Siptar
1 sources. That is to say intercepts, intercepts of conversations taking
2 place between Siptars at home and abroad when they were discussing this.
3 JUDGE KWON: Very well. Proceed, Mr. Milosevic.
4 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
5 Q. General, on page 50, the 28th of September reads that Siptars were
6 advised, if they were running away, to go in groups of 1.000 or 2.000.
7 What kind of information is this and how was that obtained?
8 A. This information also came from intercepts, from radio contacts
9 between the KLA members and their channels that were surveilled by the
10 52nd Company.
11 Q. Under the 3rd of October on that same page, it is stated that:
12 "Information was released that NATO had completed its operations for
13 using technical equipment for firing on Serbian targets in Serbia."
14 Please tell us, what did the reports for that date, the 3rd of
15 October, state?
16 A. This refers to the information to the effect that NATO had
17 completed its preparations for firing on Serbian targets. Then it also
18 mentions the number of planes that had already been prepared to that end
19 and then what members of NATO provided planes for such activity.
20 Q. And before that, on the 1st of October, it reads: "Siptars who
21 used to be KLA members continue to leave the territory of the FRY, mostly
22 to Albania, but there are cases of some of them moving to Hungary" through
23 certain channels. Is that something that you knew at the time?
24 A. After the anti-terrorist drive that was completed on the 28th of
25 September, 1998, part of the Siptar population and the vast majority of
1 the KLA members left the territory of Kosovo and Metohija as did all
2 members of FARK, which were organised in three -- which had been organised
3 in three brigades and were located in the Dukagjin area.
4 Q. General, under the 4th of October it says that the KLA soldiers
5 were trained in Tirana, Kukes, Korca, Gjirokastra, Durres, and Oruga. Do
6 you know anything about that?
7 A. Our information, the information that we had within the army of
8 Yugoslavia dating back to 1991 indicated in what locations members of the
9 KLA and members of terrorist groups were trained in Albania. So this
10 information listed here under the 4th of October is -- was nothing new.
11 It simply confirmed the information that we had previously.
12 Q. All right. On page 51, the date of 17th of October is listed, and
13 it says here that a conversation which took place between a Siptar from
14 the Netherlands and a Siptar from Kosovo and Metohija was intercepted.
15 What is this about? What are they discussing here?
16 A. It simply confirms what I stated previously; namely, that one of
17 them who was a member of the KLA and the other person, who was in the
18 Netherlands, the first one said that almost half of the KLA members from
19 Kosovo and Metohija were in Albania and then says that the majority of
20 their leaders, and then under quotation marks "were loaded 'with money.'"
21 And then further on for the 17th of October, it is stated that based on
22 the agreement signed in Belgrade in October, NATO planes, reconnaissance
23 planes, started flying over Kosovo and Metohija.
24 Q. On the same page, under the 22nd of October, it reads that Solana
25 reached an agreement with Macedonian Prime Minister on the possible use of
1 NATO bases for operations on the territory of Kosovo. What does this
2 report contain and how did you obtain this information?
3 A. This was obtained in the same manner. I think that this is a
4 widely known fact, a fact that was known to the public in general.
5 Q. General, on page 22, under the 2nd November of 1998 -- on page 52,
6 it is stated that all Serbs who have remained in villages should be driven
7 out and that they will take revenge against anyone who fought against
8 them, including Siptars who did not want to take part in conflict. And
9 then they warn their relatives abroad not to come this winter because war
10 would break out again in the spring. Who stated this and what does this
11 refer to?
12 A. Once again, this deals with the members of the KLA, starting in
13 March. The Serbian residents living in over 80 villages where they
14 constituted minority left their properties and moved into towns. So this
15 here refers to the Serbs who remained in villages, and at least in my area
16 of responsibility very few such Serbs remained. And according to this
17 they had to be driven out as well. And that Siptars who did not want to
18 take part in combat, because there were such individuals and such
19 villages, and those who refused to return weapons in September and
20 October, that they would face drastic consequences and measures, which is
21 exactly what happened later on.
22 JUDGE BONOMY: The question you were asked is who said this.
23 What's the source of it?
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The source is the same; intercepted
25 conversations between Siptars who were members of the liberation army.
1 JUDGE BONOMY: Perhaps you'll excuse me for saying it doesn't look
2 at all like that. It's not in quotations, which most of the intercepts
3 are. It's a reference to "they" rather than an individual, and it's
4 talking about warning their cousins abroad. Do you really know where that
5 came from? It also, by the way, follows a reference to press comments on
6 the previous page in relation to the 30th of October.
7 MR. NICE: Your Honours, my request in relation to this particular
8 item was, in light of the witness's answer, was to the effect, can I
9 please be provided by the accused with the intercepts, and all of them, on
10 which this document is based. It will take some time for me to review
11 them, but I'll try and find the resources, and then I'll review them.
12 JUDGE ROBINSON: The intercepts must be provided to the
13 Prosecutor. Are they available?
14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I have nothing but this report. I
15 asked the general when the report was compiled, and he said that this was
16 the report for 1998 drafted by this reconnaissance unit, and the unit
17 could have only drafted this based on the information it gathered in the
18 course of listening in on the radio communications. So this was compiled
19 in late 1998, and it concerns their activity for 1998. This is the unit
20 that regularly does this type of work.
21 JUDGE ROBINSON: Are you saying they're not available? Because
22 all of this will go to the weight that the Chamber will attach.
23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I'm not saying so. Perhaps they are
24 available. I don't have access to archives of such units. I didn't even
25 have these documents until my associates obtained them. But undoubtedly
1 this is a document that was compiled at the time based on the information
2 collected by that unit. They must have had thousands and thousands of
3 pieces of information flowing to them, and they included in their report
4 what they believed to be most important for their report for 1998.
5 JUDGE BONOMY: That's what you say, but there's no evidence at the
6 moment of when this was compiled.
7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] This was stated by the witness that
8 this report was compiled for 1998. I heard him say that.
9 JUDGE BONOMY: For 1998. What we don't have is evidence of when
10 it was compiled.
11 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
12 Q. General, can you assist, please? Can you give us explanations
13 concerning this material?
14 A. This activity, electronic reconnaissance and anti-electronic
15 operations, is an activity that goes round the clock, 24 hours a day. The
16 information is provided instantaneously to everybody who might be
17 interested in the information and to whom the information pertains,
18 because otherwise they would be valueless and would not be subject to use
19 unless they were provided instantaneously.
20 The annual report compiles or uses the bits that were typical or
21 were important. Everything else, the other bits of communication between
22 the participants, if it was unimportant, did not enter the annual report
23 because the objective of this report is to conduct an analysis of work, an
24 analysis of developments in the electronic field, analysis of new
25 frequencies used by terrorist forces, and if possible, to conduct
1 identification of participants, meaning the commanders of the KLA units,
2 their staffs.
3 JUDGE BONOMY: The question you're being asked is when was the
4 report - the report - compiled?
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As I have reviewed the entire annual
6 report, I can tell you that it was compiled or drafted probably in early
7 January 1999.
8 JUDGE BONOMY: You know that. You know that it was drafted in
9 January -- early January 1999, do you?
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In the army of Yugoslavia, generally
11 all analyses are completed at the level of the units up to the level of
12 the brigade in January; at the level the corps, that's done in February;
13 and at the level of the army of Yugoslavia, that's done in March. Since
14 this is a company, that's the level of this unit, this is a company within
15 a corps, then it is certain that this analysis was done in January based
16 on all daily reports from 1998.
17 JUDGE BONOMY: And how available is the report once it's
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This report was sent by the company
20 for electronic reconnaissance to the corps command, which is the superior
21 command, and then to the communications sector and sector for informations
22 and electronic activities within the general staff of the army.
23 JUDGE BONOMY: It must be classified in some way, is it? What
24 classification does it have?
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. I think that this was
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 classified as strictly confidential.
2 JUDGE BONOMY: No higher than that?
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, certainly not higher than that.
4 Above that there is only the state level classification, and this document
5 does not warrant that type of classification, the state secret
7 JUDGE BONOMY: Even though it discloses the extent to which you
8 were able to listen in to the activities of the KLA?
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I've already said in how many copies
10 this report was done. Since my last post before retiring was acting chief
11 of the operations administration, which is the administration making or
12 drafting all orders for the army command. Therefore, I know very clearly
13 what warrants state secret classification or strictly confidential
14 classification or internal document. This falls in the strictly
15 confidential category.
16 JUDGE BONOMY: Do you have the complete document with you?
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I saw this document in Belgrade in
18 2002, but I don't have it with me.
19 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.
20 MR. NICE: As Your Honour forecast perhaps what I would be asking
21 is that I would like to be provided with a full copy of the report up to
22 pages 33 and then the missing pages 30 -- whatever we've got missing, 32
23 and 33, I think, is it, 34 and 35, and then 39 and 40, and everything
24 else. There's obviously now no -- on the witness's explanation, there is
25 no grounds why we shouldn't receive or be allowed to see all of the report
1 along with the original intercepts.
2 JUDGE ROBINSON: General, are the original intercepts available?
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As for the original intercepts, that
4 could be verified through the general staff. I'm not informed about this,
5 but as for the material, I think we can obtain all the missing pages.
6 However, there is a part of the report which most likely the general staff
7 would not provide, and I can tell you in private session the reasons for
9 JUDGE ROBINSON: Private session.
10 [Private session]
7 [Open session]
8 JUDGE ROBINSON: I think he's -- we're in open session.
9 MR. KAY: Yes.
10 JUDGE ROBINSON: I think he's suggesting the missing pages, the
11 incompleteness of the document, suggests that it is entirely unreliable.
12 MR. KAY: The issue of the missing pages is perhaps capable of
13 explanation by the Defence, and the general has attempted to explain that.
14 His assertions as to unreliability are just general assertions he's making
15 against the Defence using this document. The general has tried to deal
16 with that and has given an explanation. He's established that it's
17 probative and relevant to the extent that the material in 1998 is relevant
18 to the trial, but the issue of unreliability is just being asserted by
19 Mr. Nice without any foundation.
20 MR. NICE: I'll just respond to that in this way: First of all,
21 I'm going to carry on asking for material that's necessary to allow for
22 the possible timely cross-examination of a witness, but if a responsible
23 advocate appearing for this accused wanted to turn up with part of a
24 document of which the other part was going to be subject to protection or
25 with being withheld by a party, he would make that -- make that position
1 clear to the Chamber straight away. If he was going to produce a document
2 based on intercepts, knowing that the intercepts weren't available to him,
3 he would make that clear to the Chamber straight away so that the Chamber
4 could know from the beginning what were the limitations on the document
5 and its potential shortcomings.
6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. Remember Mr. Milosevic is not a
7 professional advocate.
8 MR. NICE: No, I understand that, and it's with that in mind that
9 I've been slow to object to this document and wait and see what was going
10 to emerge from the questions and answers of the non-professional advocate
11 and his witness, but that's actually the standard that we ought to have in
12 mind, and it's with that in mind that when we reach this position, I make
13 the requirements and requests that I do. They either serve as quite
14 legitimate requests to have underlying material that one would expect to
15 be provided or they serve to show that the material is in its present form
16 simply unreliable.
17 The timing of my request, I could, of course, simply wait in a
18 process that's going to clearly be extended with this witness, until the
19 moment when I ask him questions, I then say to him, Can I have the
20 intercepts? He says, Yes, they are available but it will take a week to
21 get them. Too late. Far better that I make the request now.
22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Robinson.
23 JUDGE ROBINSON: Is the Limaj case here? A Status Conference.
24 Fifteen past two. We'll have to adjourn now, Mr. Milosevic, and I will
25 allow you to speak first thing tomorrow.
1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Just 30 seconds.
2 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Please. The document is authentic.
4 The general confirmed that. The excerpts start with page 30, not because
5 someone wants to hide the first 30 pages but because it was thought that
6 they weren't relevant for the purposes of these proceedings, for proving
7 anything here. So the fact that some pages are missing has nothing to do
8 with the claims being made about challenging the authenticity of the
9 document at all, and the witness himself has confirmed its authenticity.
10 As for Mr. Nice's statements that I can access those documents
11 before him, that's absolutely not true. My associates have informed me
12 that the office of Mr. Nice received the documents having to do with 1998,
13 having to do with the activities of the units under this witness's command
14 more than a year before them, and this was in 2003, and I mentioned that.
15 So if Mr. Nice needs anything and needs to access anything, he can request
16 it from those who will provide him with it before they provide me with it,
17 and he cannot tell me what I -- what excerpts I'm going to present here as
18 evidence and exhibits. That's up to me. It's my affair.
19 JUDGE ROBINSON: Well, we're going to adjourn now. We will resume
20 tomorrow morning at 9.00 a.m.
21 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.47 p.m.,
22 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 22nd day
23 of June, 2005, at 9.00 a.m.