Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 42681

1 Wednesday, 17 August 2005

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 9.01 a.m.

5 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic, I am in receipt of a memorandum

6 from your legal associate, Mr. Rakic, explaining that Mr. Delic will not

7 be testifying today. The explanation in the circumstances is accepted,

8 but you should nonetheless make arrangements for Mr. Delic to be here to

9 continue his testimony at the earliest time.

10 Please call your next witness.

11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The next witness is Saban Fazliu.

12 Mr. Robinson.

13 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Milosevic.

14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] A change has been made. The next

15 witness will be Muharem Ibraj, and after him, Saban Fazliu. I had a

16 different order noted here, but never mind.

17 [The witness entered court]

18 JUDGE ROBINSON: Let the witness make the declaration.

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] First of all, I would like to greet

20 you all.

21 I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the whole truth,

22 and nothing but the truth.

23 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. You may sit.


25 [Witness answered through interpreter]

Page 42682

1 JUDGE ROBINSON: Please begin, Mr. Milosevic.

2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Robinson.

3 Examined by Mr. Milosevic:

4 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Ibraj. Could you please

5 introduce yourself and say something briefly about yourself.

6 A. Good morning, Mr. President. I hereby greet you. I am ready to

7 speak the truth for things that I know. You can begin with your

8 questions.

9 Q. Tell us where you were born, where you went to school, where you

10 worked, and where you lived.

11 A. I was born on the 25th of September, 1953, in the village of Osek

12 Hilja, Gjakove municipality. I completed primary school in Skivljane

13 village and secondary school in economics in Mitrovica e Titos. From 1972

14 until 1980, I had my private business, a restaurant. In 1981, I worked as

15 a forest ranger in Erenik. In May 1998, I worked for the security of the

16 village, and I performed this work until 14th of June, 1999.

17 Q. Your village, Osek Hilja that you mentioned a minute ago, is very

18 close to Djakovica and it belongs to Djakovica municipality, doesn't it?

19 A. Yes. It is attached to Gjakove.

20 Q. Mr. Ibraj, is your village purely Albanian in terms of its

21 population?

22 A. My village consists of 186 households, and out of these only one

23 was Serbian.

24 Q. Tell me, Mr. Ibraj - you lived in your village all the time - were

25 there any problems between Serbs and Albanians in your own setting?

Page 42683

1 A. In the past, there were many Serbs in our village. From 1980,

2 they began to move from the village, but during the whole time they were

3 in our village, we were always in good terms, Serbians and Albanians.

4 Q. Tell us, when did the problems actually start or, rather,

5 conflicts or tensions on ethnic grounds?

6 A. Problems began in 1998 when the terrorists, the KLA, were formed.

7 Q. How did these problems manifest themselves?

8 A. They manifested these problems with their revolt against the

9 Serbs, against the state, against the Albanians who were not working for

10 them, with them.

11 Q. Is that when the organisation of local security started in your

12 area, specifically in your village or, rather, specifically in your

13 municipality of Djakovica?

14 A. The local defence in Gjakove municipality began in May 1998.

15 Every village in Gjakove municipality had two persons designated for local

16 security. Those two persons who were able to defend their own village,

17 those villages remained undamaged to this date. However, there were cases

18 when they were not able to defend their villages; they were either

19 kidnapped or killed. There were killings, arson, everything.

20 Q. Mr. Ibraj, who did you protect your villages from? The local

21 security, who did it protect villages from?

22 A. I had a comrade, an associate of mine. We made an agreement with

23 the army and the police and the villagers in the village for the villagers

24 not to be disturbed either by the police or the army but also by the KLA.

25 Q. You said that in all villages in the municipality of Djakovica

Page 42684

1 local security had been set up and that every village had two members of

2 the local security respectively. Did you personally hold a particular

3 position in this local security?

4 A. Yes, we had. We worked through the municipality. I'm not quite

5 sure, but I think that Gjakove municipality consists of 76 villages, and

6 every village had local security.

7 Q. Could you speak about this in a bit more detail, because this is

8 the first time that we have authentic testimony about this, authentic

9 evidence. How were these local security members selected? Who appointed

10 them? What was their role? I'm going to put several questions to you so

11 that I do not burden you with a great many questions altogether.

12 A. The local security was established by the president of the

13 municipality. Now I'm speaking only for the Gjakove municipality. The

14 local security was established by the president of the municipality,

15 Momcilo Stanojevic. He called from each village one person to attend

16 meetings, and he organised meetings on village level within two days and

17 elected persons who were able to guarantee for that certain village. For

18 example, for Osek village, I was elected by the village. I and Mihil

19 Abazi were able to guarantee that nobody will touch the village of Osek.

20 And this is how it was to the very end.

21 Q. What about the other villages? Was that the type of selection

22 that took place? Did the villagers themselves choose their local

23 security?

24 A. In each village, villagers themselves elected two persons for

25 local security.

Page 42685

1 Q. Does that mean that members of the local security had uniforms?

2 A. We had our uniforms, yes.

3 Q. What kind of equipment did you have?

4 A. The uniforms differed from the uniforms of the police. We carried

5 the insignia on the chest and on the cap, and on the insignia it was

6 written in both Albanian and Serbian "Local Defence." We had special

7 permissions. We had rifles, we have truncheons, and for each village

8 there was one vehicle assigned. There were six radios for the entire

9 local police.

10 Q. All right. Thank you, Mr. Ibraj. Please tell me about the

11 collection of weapons. Could you tell me what kind of drive this was,

12 specifically in your village, what you organised yourself.

13 A. First I would like to apologise. I had many problems, and I

14 wasn't able to remember all the dates. I don't know the exact date, but

15 it was sometime in the beginning, in May 1998. I and Mihil Abazi,

16 together with two elderly persons from the village, we went to each and

17 every house in the village and informed them to surrender their weapons.

18 We guaranteed to them that nobody will touch them, because the president

19 of the municipality guaranteed to us, and this is how things proceeded to

20 the end. And within 24 hours every weapon that was taken from the KLA was

21 brought to me. They surrendered these weapons to me. Together with two

22 other persons from the village, I collected these weapons with two

23 tractors and brought the weapons to SUP.

24 Q. Mr. Ibraj, you said just now that you collected weapons that the

25 villagers had received from the KLA. However, it is a well-known fact

Page 42686

1 that Albanians, like Serbs, after all, especially in that area --

2 MR. SAXON: Objection, Your Honour. "It is a well-known fact"

3 certainly indicates that we are about to get a leading question. Perhaps

4 the accused could rephrase his question, Your Honour.

5 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Milosevic. Avoid leading questions.

6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] This is not a leading question in

7 relation to the facts. It has to do something with a situation there, if

8 I can put it that way. I wanted to say that it is well known that

9 Albanians and Serbs living in that part of the world like weapons. So I

10 wanted to ask the witness whether they organised -- was the surrender of

11 weapons that they had received from the KLA or the collection of any kind

12 of weapon that any one of the villagers had in their house.

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I can give an answer to that.

14 When I asked them to surrender their weapons, I told them to surrender

15 those weapons which they had procured from the terrorists, because 80 per

16 cent of the Albanians have always had a weapon. I myself was in prison

17 some 20 times because I had kept hidden weapons. Therefore, I told those

18 persons that whoever had a rifle, a weapon, a pistol which they had kept

19 at home to protect themselves, not to fight the state or for terrorist

20 purposes, I told them to surrender those weapons that they had procured

21 from the KLA.

22 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Ibraj, may I ask you to explain or clarify

23 what is in the transcript; that you were in prison some 20 times because

24 you kept hidden weapons. Is that so?

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

Page 42687

1 JUDGE ROBINSON: As many as 20 times you were imprisoned for

2 having hidden weapons?

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Maybe not 20 times but maybe 10

4 times.

5 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Milosevic, proceed.

6 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

7 Q. Mr. Ibraj, could you explain this? As far as I understood you,

8 you asked them to hand over the weapons that they had received from the

9 KLA. You did not ask them to surrender the weapons that they themselves

10 had. Did I understand you correctly or am I wrong?

11 A. You are right.

12 Q. Does that mean that if they had some weapons that they had had for

13 many years that they had bought, whatever, that they could keep those

14 weapons?

15 A. The state never permitted us to keep weapons with -- with

16 permissions. We Albanians had always problems among themselves --

17 ourselves for petty offences for lands, for livestock, things like this,

18 and we could buy a weapon up to 4.000 marks. And I told them not to

19 surrender that kind of weapon which they had to protect themselves, and

20 they didn't surrender such kind of weapons. But the state never arrest

21 the people for holding such kind of weapons, because they knew that even

22 if they had a rifle, they would use it only to protect themselves and not

23 to use it against the state, for nothing else. We back then to surrender

24 the weapons they had brought from abroad, those weapons which were used

25 for terrorist purposes, and they did surrender those weapons.

Page 42688












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Page 42689

1 Q. You mentioned a short while ago that you were in prison about ten

2 times because of possession of weapons. I assume that you did not have a

3 permit. Could you explain that in greater detail. When was it you were

4 in prison and how much time did you spend in prison because of such

5 violations?

6 A. From 1975 was the first time when I went to prison, when the

7 militiamen found a pistol in my home and they sentenced me to one or two

8 months. After that, I purchased another pistol, and this went on. I

9 asked the state to give me a permit to hold a weapon. They didn't.

10 Q. And what was the total? I know it's hard for you to give us an

11 exact figure now, but what was the total time you spent in prison due to

12 these various violations?

13 A. I don't think I spent more than a year and a half. The greatest

14 sentence I received was one year and a half. I apologise for starting to

15 speak in Serbian.

16 Q. The first time when you were penalised for possessing weapons, you

17 said that the police found a pistol in your possession and you were

18 punished. Who were the policemen concerned; Serbs or Albanians?

19 A. Albanian.

20 Q. And on other occasions - you say that on about ten different

21 occasions you were imprisoned for illegal possession of weapons - were the

22 policemen who found those weapons in your possession Serbs or Albanians?

23 A. The policemen were Albanians.

24 Q. Let us go back to this event in 1992. How many weapons did you

25 collect during that drive, the weapons the villagers had received from the

Page 42690

1 KLA?

2 A. In our village, in Osek, we didn't count every single weapon. I

3 know that there were two tractors full of weapons. They had pistols. I

4 know that there was also a cannon. There was -- there were all sorts of

5 weapons.

6 Q. You told us about pistols. Were there any rifles?

7 A. I said everything from pistols to other weapons. There was also a

8 cannon. There were automatic rifles, mortars, all sorts of weapons.

9 JUDGE KWON: I'm a bit confused. Is it in 1992 or 1998?

10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 1998.

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] 1998.

12 JUDGE KWON: Proceed, Mr. Milosevic.

13 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

14 Q. So, Mr. Ibraj, you collected those weapons. What did you do with

15 them?

16 A. I took two other persons with me, and we transported these weapons

17 to the SUP in Gjakove.

18 Q. Very well.

19 JUDGE ROBINSON: Were the weapons different from the kind of

20 weapons which you said earlier the Albanians kept for their protection?

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As I said, there were two tractors

22 full of -- full of weapons, and all of them were new weapons. They were

23 not old.

24 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

25 Q. Now, be so kind as to explain to us, Mr. Ibraj, whether the police

Page 42691

1 or the army or any other authority whatsoever come into any sort of clash

2 with your villagers. Was anybody punished for possession of weapons? Did

3 the possession of weapons have any consequence for the villagers?

4 A. In Osek, there were, I think, three persons who did not surrender

5 their weapons. They fled the village with their weapons, and they were

6 captured by the police and condemned. Three people. The others who

7 surrendered their weapons were not touched. They were allowed to be free

8 and to mind their own business.

9 Q. Did the police come to your village after that? Did they conduct

10 searches, anything of that sort?

11 A. The police did not come to our village, because I and Mihil Abazi

12 were there, responsible for that. When the militia had anything to do

13 with them, they told us. The militia didn't have anything to do with our

14 village.

15 Q. Does that mean that nobody touched the villagers throughout that

16 time?

17 A. From the wartime up to the 14th of June, 1999, we didn't have any

18 problems. There were some minor problems with the army forces when they

19 were in our village, but we resolved it that day.

20 Q. Tell me, Mr. Ibraj, how far is your village from the centre of

21 Djakovica, from the town of Gjakove?

22 A. It is five kilometres away from the centre of Gjakove.

23 Q. Let us sum up, then: Sometime in mid-1998, you collected the

24 weapons. You turned them over to the SUP, and the police never came to

25 your village again, nor did they have anything to do with the villagers.

Page 42692

1 You as local security took care of maintaining law and order in the

2 village, and there were no conflicts. Would that be the summary of what

3 you have told us so far?

4 A. Yes, that's right. The police came to our village once. They

5 told us to search some families that had not turned over their weapons,

6 and I told them that I couldn't do that. They couldn't come to our

7 village without our permission. I allowed them to come. They went and

8 fetched that person, they took him to prison, and I don't know what

9 happened to him after that. They took away his weapons. There was no

10 other problem after that in our village.

11 Q. At any time during the war did any of the people in your village

12 suffer any maltreatment from the army, the police, anybody who was in the

13 vicinity?

14 A. Only one family had problems with two soldiers.

15 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Ibraj, may I ask you to explain your

16 statement that the police could not come to your village without your

17 permission. Does that relate to a specific incident or are you speaking

18 generally?

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In general. I'm talking in general.

20 JUDGE ROBINSON: You're saying that the police had to get your

21 permission before they could come to your village?

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

23 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Milosevic.

24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Robinson, I wish to remind you

25 that I explained earlier on that the Albanians had taken over security

Page 42693

1 matters in a great number of villages and had an understanding with the

2 police that they would take care of maintaining law and order themselves

3 so that the police did not enter those villages at all, because that was

4 the understanding between the police and a great number of villages. And

5 that was the case with the municipality of Djakovica, among others.

6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Well, let me hear from Mr. Ibraj.

7 This was an understanding. Was it a written understanding or just

8 an informal understanding?

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We did this through the chairman of

10 the municipality. The chairman of the municipality guaranteed us that we

11 would have no problems whatsoever from the army or from the police. And

12 we guaranteed the police and the army that I would be responsible for

13 everything that might occur in my village and that on my part I guaranteed

14 the villagers that I would be responsible for any problems that might come

15 up with the police or the army. And this was how things went up to the

16 end.

17 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Milosevic.

18 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

19 Q. Mr. Ibraj, you mentioned an incident that happened between one

20 villager and two soldiers. Could you explain what it was about.

21 A. Yes, I can, but I cannot mention the name because it's not a good

22 thing to mention someone's name here. A villager came to me in the

23 morning and told me that two soldiers had come and asked him to give them

24 some water. The army forces were deployed in a village in the vicinity --

25 in the mountain, excuse me, in the vicinity of the village, and his house

Page 42694

1 was situated nearby the army place. They had asked him for water, he had

2 given them water, and then they asked him to give them a coffee, and he

3 gave them coffee as well. They had entered his house without the owner's

4 permission.

5 I wasn't there to see with my own eyes what happened, but he told

6 me that they had taken his wife and entered another room. The other

7 members of the family, they had asked them to stay in another room.

8 After three or four hours, they had left the house, and he came to

9 me crying and told me what had happened. I took him with me, this person,

10 and went to the commune, to the municipality chairman, and woke him from

11 sleep, because, as I said, it was very early morning and he was still

12 sleeping. I recounted to him what I had heard from this person, and

13 together we went to SUP, to the chief of the SUP, and asked -- and told

14 him, "This is what has happened, and you have guaranteed me that no harm

15 would come to our village." He told me, "Go back to the village, and in

16 two hours we will be there."

17 And in an hour, actually, they came. They were policemen. And

18 they took me and went together to that person who had reported the case to

19 me. And together with this person, we went to the army forces, and he

20 recognised those two soldiers who were at his house, and the soldiers were

21 taken away immediately. I don't know where they were taken and what

22 happened to them because I remained in the village.

23 After two or three days -- or three days, the person to whom that

24 had happened received a note telling him that those two soldiers were

25 sentenced in Prizren, one to six and the other to seven years of gaol.

Page 42695

1 And after that, there was no other problem.

2 JUDGE ROBINSON: Do you know what offence they were charged with,

3 the soldiers who were sentenced?

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That villager, I think, said that

5 his wife was raped.

6 JUDGE KWON: It was only two or three days after. Am I right?

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, you are right.

8 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.

9 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

10 Q. Let us move on to a different subject, but before that, let me ask

11 you: Apart from that incident that you described as a result of which you

12 intervened personally, whereupon the police removed the two soldiers from

13 the area to which your village belongs, were there any other incidents?

14 For the entire duration of the war.

15 A. No, there were no other incidents from the army or from the

16 police. There was actually an incident regarding myself.

17 Q. Be so kind as to tell us briefly what kind of incident that was.

18 A. A police car was going to Decan, and it stopped at my house, and

19 someone told me that, "We saw a KLA group in your village." I took some

20 local police with me and went in the direction that these policemen told

21 me they had seen the KLA group. I went to a house, and the owner came out

22 and I asked him whether there was someone in his house, apart from his

23 family members, that is. He said no. And then I told him that some

24 policemen had informed me that there were KLA members. And I said, "It's

25 better not to create problems for the village, because I have guaranteed

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Page 42697

1 them, the police, that there would be no problems here." He said, "No,

2 there is nobody in my home and there is a group in the other house."

3 I went to this other house and I called the owner, who came out

4 after my call, and I asked him whether he had other people in his home,

5 because I had news that he had, and he said no, and he started to curse

6 me. In front of his door I saw some pair of shoes, and I guessed that

7 there were people there. I said, "I want -- I want to go inside and

8 search." At that moment, I didn't have any weapons on me. I don't

9 remember even now whom I borrowed a weapon from when I entered inside.

10 When I went into the room, I saw ten people there. I told them to

11 stand up against the wall, and they did so. I asked them to show me their

12 identity papers. The owner told me that he himself had their identity

13 papers in another room, he said, and then he went to fetch them.

14 When he came back, he attacked me. During that confrontation, two

15 other people assaulted me from my back. I killed the owner, who was in

16 front of me. When he fell on the ground, the others who were behind my

17 back, when I turned, they surrendered. And then in the meantime, some

18 other forces came to my rescue, and we arrested the other eight persons

19 who were still alive and surrendered them to SUP.

20 Before coming out of that house, of that room, I informed the

21 observers who came. When they came, I don't remember well, but I think

22 there was an Italian with them, and the investigating judge also came to

23 the site of the event. They came and they examined the site. The

24 investigating judge interrogated me. I don't know to this date who that

25 person -- that judge was. I know that he came from the Peja first

Page 42698

1 instance court. He gave me a verdict, a decision for self-defence.

2 The other persons were handed over to SUP. They were from Klina,

3 from Burasac [phoen], Kosare, and from another place I don't remember,

4 from where two or three other persons were.

5 Other than that, there was no other problem in the village up to

6 the end of the war.

7 JUDGE ROBINSON: [Microphone not activated] Mr. Ibraj.

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] At the moment I met them they were

9 not armed and were not dressed in uniforms. They were dressed in civilian

10 clothes. I felt embarrassed because they were -- some were from my

11 village, and they wanted the police to come and search the family, and I

12 didn't allow the police to come inside and search for weapons.

13 I personally attended the funeral of the person I killed, and we

14 observed the mourning rites for ten days, and I took care of his family as

15 if it were my family until the end of the war. His father had a weapon, a

16 pistol, even from before, and I didn't allow the police to take away that

17 pistol.

18 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

19 Q. Mr. Ibraj, before we move on, tell me, when you arrived at that

20 house where the incident took place, were you accompanied by somebody else

21 from the local security?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. You were alone?

24 A. No. Ten local policemen were there. Immediately after I was told

25 that a KLA group had entered the village, of course I wasn't able to go

Page 42699

1 there myself, so I called for others to come with me.

2 Q. Those persons you invited to accompany you, were they from the

3 Secretariat of the Interior - in other words, the state police - or were

4 they also local security men, Albanians?

5 A. No, they were Albanians from the local defence.

6 Q. Very well.

7 A. The policemen from SUP came later, after I called them, after

8 everything was finished. An hour later. I called for the observers and

9 SUP members, and they came later.

10 Q. Mr. Ibraj, you have explained that for the entire duration of the

11 war the village was peaceful, there were no KLA members. The men you

12 described a moment ago were from Klina, as you said, not from other

13 places. Did I understand you correctly?

14 A. They were persons from Klina, Punacec [phoen], Kosare, and I don't

15 remember all the places they came from, but I don't think there was any

16 from my village except for the owner of the house.

17 Q. All right. Tell me now, since I understand correctly as saying

18 there were no KLA units in your village, let me ask you now: Were there

19 any KLA members elsewhere who were natives of your village?

20 A. Twenty-eight persons from my village were members of the KLA,

21 persons who lived in my village. They were not KLA in my village, but

22 they were members in other villages. They were with the KLA. I called

23 their families, and I told their parents: "I guaranteed for this village,

24 so you either bring your child, your son, back home or tell him not to

25 come here in the village in a uniform and cause problems." Their parents

Page 42700

1 guaranteed, and those who were members of the KLA from my village, they

2 did not enter the village until the end of the war. And their families

3 lived well in our village. We helped them with everything we could.

4 Q. Now, tell me, apart from this collaboration which functioned very

5 well, as we can see, with the authorities, was there any cooperation of

6 some other kind with the authorities, such as assistance in everyday

7 matters? How did that cooperation work?

8 A. When the war began, people became scared. They didn't feel free

9 to go to the town and do their business. I went to the president of the

10 municipality and asked him what to do. I told him that the villagers

11 didn't have flour, didn't have oil. We opened a Red Cross point in a week

12 and organised two persons, and they made up a list for every house, what

13 each house needed, and within three days the president of municipality

14 brought the stuff needed to me, and then we distributed them to the

15 villagers. This aid was from Red Cross.

16 Q. Mr. Ibraj, apart from this particular occasion when you called in

17 the observers after that incident, did the OSCE observer mission come at

18 all? Did its individual members come?

19 A. As I said earlier, the observers were the first to come. After

20 they came, I informed the police as well, and the police then came as

21 well.

22 Q. I'm not asking you about that incident any more. You've already

23 described that incident. Now I'm asking you whether the OSCE observer

24 mission came to your village. Did any members come on any other occasion?

25 A. Even before this incident, and after this incident, observers came

Page 42701

1 to our village. But from those that came, I remember one. He was

2 Italian. I don't remember his name. And on several occasions the chief

3 of the observers - that's how he presented himself - he came as well;

4 Walker. I remembered his name because he came to me and told me that his

5 father was born in 1920, he asked for his ID card and wanted to know if he

6 was the person. He gave him the ID card and said to him, "You raped two

7 females, minors."

8 Q. Who said that to your father?

9 A. Walker, William Walker. I was present when he said these words to

10 my father. And I said to him, "How can you say these words to a person

11 who is 80 years old?" He said to me that two females had given a

12 statement about this, so he went to fetch these two females because he saw

13 that the person they accused was 80 years old. When these two females

14 came, they got out of the car, and then he asked them, "Is this the

15 person?" They said no. He then apologised, and I said to him, "How on

16 earth can you tell an 80-year-old person -- how on earth can you accuse an

17 80-year-old person of raping two minor females?" I cursed him and told

18 him that I didn't want to see him again in my village. So he left and I

19 never saw him again.

20 Q. You said, Mr. Ibraj, that you remembered an Italian and William

21 Walker from all the observers. Did I understand you correctly?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Tell me, since Walker accused your father that time and left, how

24 many times had you seen him before that incident?

25 A. I had seen him before this incident and also after this incident,

Page 42702

1 but I never spoke with him again. I could see him every night going to

2 Glodjane.

3 Q. Why did he go to Glodjane every evening?

4 A. Because there was the KLA staff, and every night between, 11.00

5 and 12.00 p.m,. he would go there.

6 Q. Before this incident did you have any conversation with him?

7 A. He came on several occasions to my house and asked me about the

8 uniforms we wore, who these uniforms belonged to. So I explained to him

9 that this was the uniform of the local defence. Then he asked me who gave

10 us those uniforms, so I said to him it was Serbia who gave us these

11 uniforms, and he said to me, "There's no longer a Serbia here." He had a

12 band on his left arm, and the American flag as well, and he said to me,

13 "Now you can put this flag on your uniform because there is no longer a

14 Serbia here." And I said to him, "Go to your country, to America, and I

15 don't want to see you again." And he never came to my house again.

16 Q. When did that happen, Mr. Ibraj? Can you remember, at least

17 roughly, when it was that Walker came to your home and when it was that he

18 said you should place an American flag there and that it was no longer

19 Serbia? When did that happen?

20 A. I don't remember the exact date, but this happened sometime in May

21 1998.

22 Q. Try, nevertheless, to remember. It was impossible for him to be

23 there in May 1998.

24 MR. SAXON: Objection, Your Honour. The witness has given his

25 response to the question, now the accused cannot be putting words into the

Page 42703

1 witness's mouth, Your Honour.

2 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. Mr. Milosevic, that's not acceptable.

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know the exact date. As I

4 said earlier, I had many problems and have problems to this date. I don't

5 know the exact date. Now, whether it was 1998 or 1999, I don't know, but

6 I know that it was before the bombing.

7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Robinson, I was trying to help

8 the witness remember, try to remember in order to get to that date,

9 because the witness had already apologised that he cannot remember the

10 date because he had a great many problems, which we will see, major

11 problems at that. And since he already gave his apology stating that he

12 could not remember the date, I was just trying to help him, or, rather, I

13 just asked him what time this was, and I was just telling him it could not

14 have been in May 1998, of course. But never mind. Never mind. After

15 all, never mind. He explained to us now it was before the bombing.

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I didn't say May 1998. I didn't

17 say May 1998. I said it could be in May 1998, or beginning of 1999.

18 JUDGE ROBINSON: But before the bombing.

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Before the bombing, yes.

20 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

21 Q. Since you mentioned the bombing, were there any effects of the

22 NATO bombing in your village itself?

23 A. There were no damages in the village except for the schoolyard

24 where they threw some --

25 Q. What was there in the schoolyard?

Page 42704












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Page 42705

1 A. There was no damage to the school itself or to the people but only

2 to the yard. Some bombs were thrown in the yard. The army was stationed

3 in the mountains near the school, so they were bombing them in the

4 vicinity of the school, but the school itself, the school building was

5 outside the village. It was not in the village. They threw cluster

6 bombs.

7 JUDGE BONOMY: Which army do you say was based in the mountains

8 near the school?

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The Serbian army, part of Serbian

10 army.

11 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

12 Q. Now I'm going to put a few questions to you, and I'm going to

13 quote what it says in 63, 66, 86, and 87. I want to apologise in advance.

14 These quotations are rather lengthy. The interpretation takes place into

15 Albanian and then into Serbian, so it takes awhile.

16 Just tell me one thing: The army of Yugoslavia and the police of

17 Serbia, did they ever expel citizens from your village or Djakovica? Did

18 they ever make them leave their villages in Kosovo and Metohija?

19 MR. SAXON: Objection, Your Honour.

20 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, on what basis?

21 MR. SAXON: On the basis that this question has been framed to

22 encompass all of the villages in Kosovo and Metohija, not just the

23 villages -- the village where this witness lived and worked, and I don't

24 see how this witness then can possibly respond to that statement.

25 JUDGE ROBINSON: Well, he may have information. Let us hear the

Page 42706

1 answer.

2 Let's deal with your village first, Mr. Ibraj.

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No violence was exercised against my

4 village by the KLA or the army or the police.

5 JUDGE ROBINSON: Let us deal specifically with the question of

6 expelling people from your village.

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Nobody from my village fled the

8 village. Nobody left. Everyone was in the village until I left, until

9 14th of June, 1999. They carried on their normal work. Nobody left for

10 Albania. Not a single house was burnt. They lived their life normally,

11 as if there was no war going on.

12 JUDGE ROBINSON: Are you in a position to say what happened in

13 relation to other villages?

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As for other villages, all the

15 information I have is from hearsay and from what I've seen on television.

16 Every village had local police, and every local police was in charge of

17 its own village.

18 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

19 Q. Mr. Ibraj, do you know that a great many Albanians went to

20 Macedonia and Albania during the war?

21 A. This is something that everybody knows.

22 Q. Do you know about the authorities, the police or the military,

23 forcing Albanians to go to Albania or Macedonia? Do you know anything

24 about that?

25 A. To my knowledge, the police and the army actually returned them

Page 42707

1 back to their homes. They wouldn't let them go. There was a case when a

2 truck loaded with people stopped near me and asked for water. I asked

3 them where they were heading to, they said they were going to Albania. I

4 asked them, "Why you're going to Albania?" and they answered to me,

5 "Well, we have to leave Kosova because Kosova is being bombed by NATO, and

6 we are leaving because of the bombing." This is to my knowledge.

7 Q. Mr. Ibraj, you were in your own village. Since it is, as you

8 said, five kilometres away from the centre of Djakovica, tell me, during

9 the war, or generally speaking on the eve of the war, did you go to

10 Djakovica often or were you in your own village only?

11 A. I went also to Gjakove. My office was in Gjakove.

12 Q. Does that mean that you were in Djakovica every day?

13 A. Up to the bombing I was in Gjakove.

14 Q. And when the bombing started, how often did you go to Djakovica?

15 A. Only when I had to go and see the president of municipality for a

16 short meeting, because there was heavy bombing in Gjakove and we were

17 afraid to go out.

18 Q. In a way, since you were five kilometres away from the centre and

19 since you came to see the president of the municipality and to attend

20 these meetings, were you aware of the situation in Djakovica apart from

21 what you've already said, that it was heavily bombed? Were you aware of

22 the situation in Djakovica?

23 A. To my opinion, Gjakove was bombed the most. The factory was one

24 kilometre far from my house, and when they bombed this factory, two or

25 three persons died from shock.

Page 42708

1 Q. All right. Now I'm going to read what I've already told you that

2 I would read, and then you're going to tell me, since you were in

3 Djakovica at the time, whether this is correct or not.

4 JUDGE ROBINSON: [Previous translation continues] ... the

5 indictment?

6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Paragraph 63(h), 63(h). And also

7 the subparagraphs of paragraph (h). They pertain to Djakovica

8 specifically where Mr. Ibraj was head of the local security.

9 JUDGE ROBINSON: Surely you can summarise and put questions of

10 fact to him based on that. Do we have to suffer your reading on two pages

11 of the indictment? Put to him the substance of it.

12 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

13 Q. Well, if this is the substance, it says here that from the 24th of

14 March, 1999, onwards, or around that date, and all the way up to the 11th

15 of May, 1999, that is to say from the beginning of the bombing on the 24th

16 of March until the 11th of May, so that's about six or seven weeks, that

17 forces of the FRY and Serbia were forcing the citizens of the town of

18 Djakovica to leave their homes, that they went from house to house and

19 called upon Albanians to move out, and that practically they were

20 expelling Albanians from Djakovica, forcing them to go to Macedonia,

21 Albania -- never mind where; they were basically expelling them from

22 Kosovo.

23 Is that correct, Mr. Ibraj?

24 A. As far as Gjakove is concerned, to my knowledge only those who the

25 police and the army could not prevent from going, they left. Otherwise,

Page 42709

1 nobody forced them to leave Gjakove. Not the police or the army.

2 Q. Mr. Ibraj, what is stated here goes beyond that. It says that in

3 many cases the military and the police were forcing the Albanians out of

4 their homes and forcing them to go, and they say in some cases people were

5 killed and many were threatened with death. Many shops and homes that

6 belonged to Albanians from Kosovo were torched while Serb premises were

7 protected. Tell me now, is that true?

8 A. How many times shall I repeat this? As I said to you, I never

9 heard that the police or the army told someone to leave Kosova.

10 JUDGE KWON: In Ibraj, let me clarify one thing. During the war,

11 you stayed mostly in your village, Osek Hilja. Did I understand

12 correctly?

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

14 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.

15 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

16 Q. Let us just clarify one thing about what Mr. Kwon asked you. You

17 were head of the local security. Is that not correct, Mr. Ibraj?

18 A. For Gjakove.

19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] So, Mr. Kwon, Mr. Ibraj took care of

20 his village but he was head of local security for all of Djakovica. As he

21 explained, he was in Djakovica very often. Practically, he is aware of

22 what was going on in Djakovica throughout the war.

23 JUDGE ROBINSON: Let the witness give the evidence, Mr. Milosevic.

24 JUDGE KWON: I understand that he was in local police for his

25 village.

Page 42710

1 Mr. Ibraj, you are the local police or defence for Gjakove village

2 or Osek Hilja village?

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was in the local defence for Osek

4 village but was chief of the local defence in the level of Gjakove

5 municipality. In other words, I had a group of 17 persons, members of the

6 local defence, and I was chief of these 17 persons.

7 JUDGE ROBINSON: Drawn from where, the 17 persons?

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] These 17 persons were working for

9 the local defence.

10 JUDGE KWON: Local defence for Osek Hilja village.

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I and Mihil Abazi were the two

12 persons of the local defence for Osek Hilja village. There were three

13 persons for Osek Pasa village, two for Qerim village, two for Trakanic

14 village, Lower Novoselle village two persons, two for Piskote village, two

15 for Qerim village. So in other words, I was chief of this group of

16 people.

17 JUDGE KWON: So those villages constitute upper part of Djakovica,

18 northern part?

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. Yes.

20 JUDGE KWON: So let me understand one more geographic matter. You

21 once said that you once worked at Erenik village. How near is it from

22 Gjakove, because I couldn't find it on the map.

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It is situated between Gjakove and

24 Osek.

25 JUDGE KWON: Osek Hilja or Pasa?

Page 42711

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Between Osek Hilja and Osek Pasa.

2 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.

3 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic --

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] One more thing: There is a river

5 called Erenik in Gjakove, but I refer to the agricultural enterprise

6 Erenik.

7 JUDGE KWON: So it must be very near from Qerim.

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.

9 JUDGE ROBINSON: We will take the break for 20 minutes now.

10 --- Recess taken at 10.33 a.m.

11 --- On resuming at 11.00 a.m.

12 JUDGE ROBINSON: Continue, Mr. Milosevic.

13 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

14 Q. Mr. Ibraj, I would like us to clear up one issue. Since you were

15 at the head of the local security of Djakovica, were you aware of the

16 situation in Djakovica as a whole or did you only know about your village,

17 Osek Hilja?

18 A. I was in charge of the Osek village and I can say -- I can tell

19 you also what I know about Gjakove.

20 Q. That is why I'm asking what you know about Djakovica. You will

21 tell me whether you know certain things or you don't. For instance, in

22 this paragraph which I summarised, it also says, among other things, that

23 on the 24th of March the old mosque in Rogovo, a historical centre in

24 Djakovica, which included a bazaar, a mosque, and an Islamic library, it

25 says that there were several cultural facilities which were destroyed in

Page 42712












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Page 42713

1 whole or in part, and it says it was done on the 24th of March by the

2 Serbian army and the police. Do you know about this?

3 A. The mosque in Odun [phoen] was bombed by the NATO. The police

4 station was also bombed by the NATO. The fruit juice factory was also

5 bombed by the NATO. The bazaar, too, including the traffic lights until

6 the Catholic church, was also bombed by the NATO. This is all I know

7 about Gjakove.

8 Q. Is it possible that someone from our army or the police torched

9 houses and destroyed buildings in Djakovica without you knowing it?

10 A. No. I don't know of anything like this. If the police had done

11 so in Gjakove, then I would have known about it.

12 Q. All right. Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Ibraj.

13 Let us look now at a couple of other points from paragraph 66.

14 It's very brief, and I will quote. It says 66(e) or, rather, (i): "On or

15 about the early morning hours of 27th of April, 1999, forces of the FRY

16 and Serbia came to Grezda. Women were ordered to go to an upper floor."

17 It's 66(e): "On or about the evening of the 26th of March, 1999,

18 in the town of Gjakove, forces of the FRY and Serbia came to a house at

19 134a Ymer Grezda Street. The women and children inside the house were

20 separated from the men, and were ordered to go upstairs. The forces of

21 the FRY and Serbia then shot and killed the six Kosovo Albanian men who

22 were in the house. (The names of those killed are set forth in Schedule

23 D...)"

24 Do you know anything about those six Albanians killed at this

25 address?

Page 42714

1 A. I've just heard about this question only now. I was not aware of

2 this before.

3 JUDGE ROBINSON: You can neither confirm nor deny?

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I've not heard about this incident.

5 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

6 Q. All right. But since it happened, according to this paragraph, on

7 the eve of the 26th of March, 1999, did you -- would you have to know

8 about it?

9 A. I've not heard about this incident. I don't know what to reply

10 about this question, because I don't know anything about it. I've not

11 heard about these killings.

12 Q. Do you know any of these names that I read out to you: Sylejman

13 Begolli, Arif Bytyqi, Urim Bytyqi, Emin Dervishdana, Fahri Dervishdana,

14 Zenel Dervishdana, the people listed as killed in this incident?

15 A. I have known the first Dervishdana. He is from Dusina. He is not

16 from Gjakove. As for the rest, I don't know them. I have not heard that

17 he was killed.

18 Q. Very well. I will now read to you what it says in paragraph (h),

19 66(h). Qerim district is mentioned here. It says: "On or about the late

20 evening of the 1st of April, 1999, and continuing through the early

21 morning hours of the 2nd of April, 1999, forces of the FRY and Serbia

22 launched an operation against the Qerim district of Djakovica. Over a

23 period of several hours, forces of the FRY and Serbia forcibly entered the

24 houses of Kosovo Albanians in the Qerim district, killed the occupants,

25 and then set fire to the buildings. Dozens of homes were destroyed and

Page 42715

1 over 50 persons were killed. For example, in a house located at 157 Milos

2 Gilic Street, forces of the FRY and Serbia shot the occupants and then set

3 the house on fire. As a result of the shootings and the fires set by the

4 forces of the FRY and Serbia at this single location, 20 Kosovo Albanians

5 were killed, of whom 19 were women and children. (The names ... are set

6 out in Schedule D -- G...)"

7 I will now read out to you those names from Schedule G: Dalina

8 Caka, Delvina Caka, Diona Caka, Valbona Caka, Hysen Gashi, Doruntina

9 Haxhiavdija, Egzon Haxhiavdija, Rina Haxhiavdija, Valbona Haxhiavdija,

10 Flaka Hoxha, Shahindere Hoxha, Manushe Nuci, Shirine Nuci, Arlind Vejsa,

11 Dorina Vejsa, Fetije Vejsa, Marigona Vejsa, Rita Fejsa, Sihana Vejsa,

12 Tringa Vejsa. These are the names on the list related to this incident

13 that allegedly happened in Qerim involving the death of over 50 persons,

14 as it says, in the evening of the 1st of April and in the morning of the

15 2nd of April.

16 Do you know anything about that?

17 A. The village of Qerim is very far away from my village. As refers

18 to the question you asked me, this is not true at all. In the village of

19 Qerim, none of the houses was killed during the war. They were neither

20 destroyed nor razed to the ground. From what I have heard, they are --

21 they are Muslim names. No family -- in the village of Qerim, all the

22 people are Catholic. None of them is Muslim. In the village of Qerim,

23 there is only one house that belongs to a Serb, and before the bombing

24 this house was destroyed. There was no other house in Qerim village that

25 was destroyed, neither there are there any Muslims. All the people

Page 42716

1 belonged to the Catholic religion.

2 So as regards the question, what you said, it is not true.

3 Q. Mr. Ibraj, you mentioned also some members of the local security

4 who answered to you but were in charge of Qerim. Is that the same

5 locality or is that a different one?

6 A. No. We're talking about this, about Qerim, this locality.

7 Q. Very well. We heard a witness here by the name of Bec Beqaj from

8 Djakovica. He stated that in August 1998, the population of Racaj and

9 other villages left the village for the first time when the army arrived

10 in that area. And on the 14th of April, 1999, the police and the army

11 came again to Racaj and ordered the villagers to leave their homes.

12 Do you know anything about the area of the village of Racaj, and

13 would you say that this witness Bec Beqaj was correct in saying that the

14 police and the army ordered the population of Racaj to leave?

15 A. I know where the village of Racaj is located. My wife comes from

16 this village. Bec Beqaj is my brother-in-law, but what he stated is not

17 true. The police and the army did not evict the people from this village,

18 but they had an order from terrorists to leave the villages as they were

19 told that the NATO was going to bomb them, and then we had to leave.

20 Q. All right. You say Bec Beqaj is your brother-in-law. You know

21 him, and what he stated is not true. Do you know of any reason why he

22 would lie?

23 A. Well, probably he did not dare to say that KLA told us to leave

24 the village, and we should say that the police told us to leave the

25 village.

Page 42717

1 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Ibraj, what is the basis for your saying that

2 they had an order from terrorists to leave the village as they were told

3 that NATO was going to bomb them?

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Because they did not go from my

5 village to go to Albania or to any other place.

6 JUDGE ROBINSON: What I'm seeking to find out is the basis for the

7 knowledge that you had. How did you -- how did you know that?

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I know because the head of the

9 municipality told me that neither the police nor the army can touch us,

10 and they assured me that the people are safe from the police and the army,

11 and we are not going anywhere. I assured them that I will protect them

12 from the army and the police as the KLA did not dare enter our village,

13 and that's why the people did not leave.

14 JUDGE ROBINSON: I'm not sure that you have answered my question,

15 which was: How did you come to know that terrorists told them to leave

16 the villages as NATO was going to bomb them?

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Because they went to someone and

18 told him to give the order, because they could not go from every house,

19 from house to house. They just told one person to tell the other

20 villagers to leave. And then this person spread the news in the village.

21 There were cases when the people were asked, "Why are you leaving? Why

22 are you leaving the village?" "We do not dare do this because of the KLA.

23 We have an order from the KLA to leave the village."

24 JUDGE KWON: Did you hear that in person, Mr. Ibraj?

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

Page 42718

1 JUDGE KWON: From whom?

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] From Zujo Hamza from the village of

3 Repaj [phoen].

4 JUDGE KWON: But we were talking about village of Racaj. You said

5 the people in Racaj were told from the KLA to leave.

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. Without considering the

7 village of Racaj, every village had to do so.

8 JUDGE KWON: I think that's the furthest I can get. Thank you.

9 Mr. Milosevic, proceed.

10 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

11 Q. Mr. Ibraj, you mentioned a moment ago that somebody from the KLA

12 would convey a message to one person in the village and give KLA orders

13 this way rather than go from house to house. How did it normally

14 function? To whom would this order be given and how would it be enforced

15 if it is told to only one person in the village?

16 A. This was, so to say, organised step-by-step, from the lowest --

17 from the lowest person in authority up to the commander. I had one person

18 in my village. His name was Afrim Ljulji. I protected his family in the

19 village, and he was a key person for the KLA. And in this area, he was

20 the person who had to give announcements and had to accompany the KLA in

21 the village, convey the messages.

22 I took the example of Afrim Ljulji, but there were many like him.

23 Q. But can you answer that other part of my question? If something

24 is conveyed to one person in the village, who does that person have to be

25 so that the entire village should listen to him?

Page 42719

1 A. There was one occasion in my village where some villager, old

2 people, came and told me that Afrim Ljulji told us to leave the village.

3 What are you telling us? And I told them stay, don't leave. Don't worry.

4 But they refused to do so. Somewhere somebody was scared to do so.

5 Somebody followed the order. The -- the entire village helped me. They

6 were on my side, because I alone could not have been able to do so. All

7 the villagers helped me and supported me.

8 Q. Very well. Thank you. Another witness testified here, Nike

9 Peraj. He stated that in April 1999, the KLA killed Milutin Prascevic,

10 who was head of the MUP in Djakovica, plus another four officers, after

11 which, on the 27th and the 28th of April, Serb forces started a major

12 operation in a valley to the north of Djakovica. Do you know anything

13 about what was going on in Djakovica at that time, and did you hear about

14 this incident?

15 A. I have known Nike Peraj. He was an officer in the Serbian army,

16 first class captain. I've also known Milutin Prascevic. He was not an

17 army -- a police officer, but he was a simple policeman. I heard when he

18 was killed there was another Albanian who was killed along with him, and

19 he was also a policeman, an ordinary policeman. His name was Naser

20 Arifaj.

21 Nike Peraj comes from the village of Ramoc. His son was a member

22 of the KLA. His brother was a KLA commander. For Ramoc. He came to me

23 -- there was one occasion when he came to me and told me that my father

24 was sick, because his father was an old man, and he asked me to offer him

25 a kind of a local protection and escort him to go and see his father in

Page 42720












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13 English transcripts.













Page 42721

1 Ramoc. I told him, "You are an army officer. Why do you need my

2 protection? Why do you need me to protect you? You can take 20 soldiers

3 and go there." He said, "No, I'm not scared from the police or army, but

4 I'm scared of the KLA to go there." And then I gave him three members of

5 the local defence, and they escorted him by car. He went to the house, he

6 saw his father, he stayed one hour with him father, and then he came back.

7 This is all I know about this case.

8 Q. I will read out to you just one paragraph of his statement which

9 mentions your village, Osek Hilja. It also mentions Osek Pasa in

10 Djakovica municipality. He says: "Belgrade decided that each municipality

11 should have a police unit consisting of loyal Albanians, loyal to Serbia.

12 They sent them to maintain security in villages where the atmosphere was

13 too hostile for other policemen to work. In those villages, they

14 collected intelligence for the Serbian police about the local population.

15 That started in the summer of 1998. Such a group existed in Osek Hilja

16 and Osek Pasa in Djakovica. There was a father there with two sons, and

17 there was a group of 20 men led by Hila Abazi. This father was Muharem

18 Musa Jakupi. He had two wives and had 70 something years. The youngest

19 son did not want to join the police, and he was beaten up. One of the

20 sons was called Sahid, whereas his brother was the leader of that family

21 group and also a bodyguard of Momcilo Stanojevic. The eldest son was the

22 only one who wore a camouflage uniform, and the others wore blue uniforms

23 with pointed caps, normal for the regular police. He also says that in

24 the Djakovica area there were two policemen only of the local MUP and

25 their commander was Milutin Prascevic, who was later killed in Meja." So

Page 42722

1 this was a paragraph from this statement.

2 I also mentioned to you the testimony of Nike Peraj. Tell me, did

3 this village have local security because they were too hostile to Serbs or

4 for some other reason? Because it says here they sent them to maintain

5 order in these villages because the atmosphere was too hostile to Serbia

6 for other policemen to work there. Is that the real reason?

7 A. The local security was set up in Gjakove by Momcilo Stanojevic,

8 who was head of the municipality at the time. What Belgrade decided, I

9 don't know, and this was something I was not interested in. Where the

10 local police or the local security worked, there were no damages, neither

11 in Serbs nor in Albanians. As for the witness -- as for the statement of

12 Nike Peraj, he gave this statement because of his son, because his son

13 would have killed him if he had not given that false statement, because

14 until the end of the war he worked in the Serbian army.

15 Wherever the local police worked or operated, this was a protected

16 area.

17 JUDGE BONOMY: Can I ask you what it is in Peraj's statement that

18 you say was false.

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Nothing stated in that statement is

20 true.

21 JUDGE BONOMY: So, for example, when he says that the KLA killed

22 Milutin Prascevic, who was head of the MUP, plus another four officers,

23 that's not true?

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Milan Prascevic was killed but he

25 was not head of MUP. He was an ordinary policeman. The four others, they

Page 42723

1 weren't officers. They were local policemen. One of them was Albanian,

2 and the three others were ordinary policemen. It is true that they were

3 killed.


5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It is not known who killed them, but

6 most probably the KLA, because the KLA was nearby in the mountains. And

7 they fired from the mountain with a hand-held rocket launcher. They fired

8 at them and killed them.

9 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

10 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

11 Q. Xhevahire Syla, another witness, stated that on the 14th of April,

12 mixed Serbian forces entered Nivokaz, the municipality of Djakovica. They

13 entered Albanian houses and gave people five minutes to leave them.

14 That's how a convoy was established that went towards Djakovica. The

15 police attacked some people in the convoy and told them to go to Albania

16 and that refugees were not allowed to leave the route along which they

17 were moving to Prizren and which was a road leading to the border, and

18 that's where the convoy was stopped, near the Bistrica [as interpreted]

19 bridge. The Serb forces separated from the convoy and the convoy was

20 later hit by a NATO bomb, and after that three low-flying aircraft

21 carrying Serb flags flew over their heads and bombed the convoy seven

22 times and killed 70 to 80 people. Do you know anything about this?

23 A. Either I didn't understand the question or you didn't explain it

24 well. I don't know where Bistrica bridge is.

25 Q. No. Bistrazin is the bridge. I am sorry if this was too long,

Page 42724

1 but I quoted this to you. I told you what Xhevahire Syla, a witness here,

2 said, and I'm telling you what she claimed. She testified on the 17th of

3 July, 2002.

4 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Gentlemen, the transcript page is

5 8186.

6 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

7 Q. So let us take things in order.

8 She said that Serb forces entered Nivokaz. Do you know that

9 village in the municipality of Djakovica?

10 A. Yes, I know this village, yes.

11 Q. All right. And it says that the Serb forces came and entered

12 houses, giving people five minutes to leave their homes. That is how this

13 convoy was established. And police attacked people in this convoy,

14 telling them to go to Albania, and then they went to Prizren. Let's stop

15 at that point. Do you know anything about that?

16 A. I know where Nivokaz village is. It is three kilometres from the

17 border with Albania. The village of Bistrazin is about seven or eight

18 kilometres far from Gjakove. I'm surprised how this person could give

19 this statement. How can police or army pursue someone? Because it's only

20 six kilometres from Nivokaz and Gjakove. And from Gjakove to Bistrazin

21 another seven kilometres. So I don't know why they were heading to

22 Bistrazin and in the direction of Prizren in order to get to Albania.

23 It's about 100 kilometres longer journey.

24 Q. What is the distance from Nivokaz and the Albanian border?

25 A. Nivokaz is three or four kilometres far.

Page 42725

1 Q. All right. I think this is sufficient. I'm not even going to ask

2 you about the bombing of refugees. Actually, Merfidete Selmani testified

3 here, and she stated that on the 14th of April, 1999, the Serb soldiers

4 entered the village of Dobroz and that led to the flight of the

5 population. When they passed Djakovica and got close to the Bistrazin

6 bridge, then she heard an explosion and she saw smoke coming from parts of

7 the convoy going in front of her.

8 And what happened? Serb soldiers entered the village of Dobroz,

9 expelled the population, and then when they passed Djakovica, then what

10 happened happened in Bistrazin. Do you know anything about that?

11 A. No, I don't know anything about this. This is not clear to me,

12 and I cannot give you any answer to this question. Dobroz is five

13 kilometres away from Gjakove, and it is close to the border with Albania,

14 and neither the police or army could go to these areas, mountainous areas,

15 to force these people out.

16 Q. All right. Just one question in relation to that. These

17 witnesses say that these convoys from these villages, Nivokaz, Dobroz, had

18 to go through Djakovica in order to go towards Prizren. Would people

19 notice such convoys in Djakovica if they were passing through Djakovica?

20 Djakovica's a big town, or a relatively big town. Did anything happen?

21 Did the military and the police force a convoy through Djakovica?

22 A. I don't think that the police or army forced them out. And even

23 if that was the case, the border with Albania was very close. From

24 Nivokaz to Bistrazin there are only five kilometres between. And if they

25 passed through Gjakove, someone would have seen them, such a long convoy.

Page 42726

1 Q. I'm just going to put a few more questions to you now. One

2 general question: Actually, paragraph 87 here reads as follows, since you

3 yourself said that you lived in Kosovo, in Djakovica all the time, for a

4 while you were in the service, it reads as follows: "After adopting the

5 new constitution of Serbia on the 28th of September, 1990 --" oh, no.

6 Sorry, sorry. No, sorry. 87: "After Kosovo's autonomy was practically

7 abolished, in Kosovo there were increasing political divisions. At the

8 end of 1990 --" please bear the dates in mind, the end of 1990 -- "and

9 throughout 1991, thousands of Kosovo Albanians, physicians, teachers,

10 workers, policemen, and state employees were dismissed from their jobs."

11 Tell me, please, is this correct?

12 A. To my knowledge, they did not expel them from work. Only those

13 who wanted to leave their jobs, only they left their jobs. Albanians were

14 employed in the police and in every enterprise they wanted to work until

15 the end of the war, but Albanians who refused to leave their jobs, they

16 were warned by the KLA. They were told either to leave their jobs or --

17 I'll give you an example.

18 My father was followed. His activities were followed. So he was

19 told by the KLA, "You either become one of us or we will kill you." So

20 Albanians who did not abandon their jobs from the 1990s onwards, their

21 families suffered either kidnappings or killings or their houses were

22 destroyed or they were forced to leave.

23 JUDGE BONOMY: Did the KLA as a structured body exist in 1990?

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It wasn't a public knowledge. They

25 operated secretly.

Page 42727

1 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, continue, Mr. Milosevic.

2 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

3 Q. Now, I'm going to put you questions that have to do with your

4 family only, Mr. Ibraj.

5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Before I put these questions,

6 gentlemen, I would like to draw your attention to the following. Today --

7 here's the date, the 17th of August, 2005 -- I just got it from Professor

8 Rakic, I received disclosure of the [In English] "Rule 68 material related

9 to Kosovo and Defence witness Muharem Ibraj." [Interpretation] So this is

10 a statement that was taken from this witness on the 13th of May, 2002. It

11 was submitted to me today, on the day of the witness's testimony. I just

12 said that for the record.

13 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

14 Q. But I'm going to put some questions to you in relation to your

15 family. Some of this is contained in this statement, too, the statement

16 that they took from you. You had some personal losses in your family.

17 Please tell us about it, Mr. Ibraj.

18 A. Until June 1999, I defended my village and the villages around as

19 much as I could. I helped them with humanitarian aid, but I was also

20 helped by the people. In June 1999, I had to leave Kosova. After KFOR

21 came to Kosova, six members of my family were kidnapped; my three

22 brothers, my son, and two sons of my brother.

23 When I found out about this, I informed the International Red

24 Cross, I informed the KFOR, and I reported everywhere I could, but ever

25 since I have no knowledge on their whereabouts. I know who the people who

Page 42728












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13 English transcripts.













Page 42729

1 took them are, and these people who kidnapped my brothers are still free.

2 One of them is even here in Holland. He's been here for five years now.

3 When I made some inquiries why this befell on me, the answer was,

4 "Because you did not cooperate with them."

5 Q. Please, that and what it says here in the statement that you gave

6 in 2002 or, rather, it says here -- well, I haven't got any page numbers

7 here, unfortunately. It should be page 4, I think. It's what I got

8 today: "[In Englishj] After his return to his village Osek Hilja, about

9 one week after he had been kidnapped for the first time, two person took

10 Ibr Ibraj; one was his cousins Djavit Ibraj from Osek Hilja, and a person

11 with name Isni Bunjoki from the village Racaj. I know that Ibr, who was

12 also working as a village security officer in Skiljanje once before

13 arrested his cousin Xhavit when he was with a gun, pulled his ear and

14 forced him to leave the village. This time Ibr was taken to the UCK

15 headquarter in Junik and he was never seen again."

16 A. Yes, that's correct.

17 Q. Then says: "[In English] When my son Kujtim Ibraj was taken away

18 by the UCK, he was together with Isa Ibraj and a person with name Ram

19 Ademaj. Ademaj was released one day later, while my son Kujtim and Isa

20 Ibraj are still missing."

21 A. This is a mistake because my brother and my son were taken by Ram

22 Ademaj. Ram Ademaj was not arrested with my brother and my son but was

23 the person who took them. He is in his house now, but as for my brother

24 and son, I still don't know where they are.

25 Q. How much time has gone by since your family members were abducted?

Page 42730

1 A. They were kidnapped on 18th of June, 1999. Between 18th of June

2 and 26th of June, 1999.

3 Q. That means that it's been six years now since they've been

4 abducted.

5 A. Yes, it's been more than six years now.

6 Q. They were abducted between the 18th and --

7 A. 25th of.

8 Q. That's at the time when KFOR was in charge of safety and security.

9 JUDGE KWON: Yes. I'd like to have the copies of the statement.

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] After they kidnapped them, they

11 burnt down their houses, they expelled their wives and children from their

12 homes, and from that day on we have been scattered all around.

13 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

14 Q. Mr. Ibraj, thank you very much for your testimony. I'm just going

15 to ask for you to comment upon this document that we've provided here as

16 an exhibit. This is a letter sent to you by the KLA.

17 Could it please be given to the witness so that he could briefly

18 say what this is about.

19 A. This letter, in the beginning of 1998, I found it in the street

20 just in front of my house, together with five Albanian leks wrapped in

21 the letter. I read this letter --

22 Q. Five Albanian what? I did not understand.

23 A. Five Albanian currency, lek.

24 Q. The interpretation was "leg," "five legs," so I didn't understand

25 what it was all about.

Page 42731

1 A. No. The Albanian currency is called lek.

2 Q. I understand. I understand how come the mistake was made, yes.

3 A. The meaning of these five leks was that you have a deadline, until

4 you spend all these five leks, to live. I didn't know to whom I should

5 write a response, but I answered to myself and my family. I thought that

6 I should not be against one state, and the KLA in this case was not the

7 state. I didn't want to be against the state and join the KLA.

8 Eventually the content of this letter came true.

9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could you please admit this into

10 evidence as an exhibit.

11 JUDGE BONOMY: Can I be clear, Mr. Ibraj, how was it you knew the

12 letter was for you? Is it because of the use of a nickname rather than

13 your own name?

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The name of my father is written on

15 the letter.

16 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

17 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

18 Q. Just one more question: Did you have an opportunity to read this

19 statement? In all fairness, I received it only today. I quoted just a

20 few sentences from it to you a few moments ago, those that pertain to the

21 members of your family, but you already said that Ram Ademaj was not

22 arrested but that this was actually the man who kidnapped them, who took

23 them away. Did you have the opportunity of reading this statement and did

24 you see whether there were some other inaccurate interpretations of what

25 you'd said, because right now I did not have the opportunity of reading

Page 42732

1 all of it.

2 A. On the 14th of June, 1999, I left Kosova, but my entire family was

3 at home. Ram Ademaj, who is my neighbour, went together with 20 KLA

4 members to my house and took my brother and my son. My entire family was

5 there. My family asked Ram, "Why are you doing this? What did they do to

6 you?" And his reply was, "We will only question them and we will release

7 them tomorrow." But they never returned, and we don't know anything about

8 their whereabouts.

9 Q. Thank you, Mr. Ibraj. Thank you for having testified. I have no

10 further questions.

11 A. Thank you.

12 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. The statement -- do you want the statement

13 exhibited?

14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, I think it could be exhibited,

15 but after the witness reads it in his own language and checks its

16 accuracy. As you can see, a portion that I quoted to him contains not an

17 error but a grave mistake, a grave inaccuracy. Ram Ademaj, who took away

18 his family, and they haven't been heard of since, the witness cannot know

19 now what else has perhaps been misinterpreted there, and I can't tell

20 either because I just got it. Is there any kind of procedure for the

21 witness to read this first and then to have it admitted into evidence? I

22 think that would be very useful.


24 MR. SAXON: Your Honour, the Prosecution doesn't see any grounds

25 for this statement to be admitted into evidence. The statement was

Page 42733

1 provided to Mr. Milosevic as a caution under Rule 68, because arguably the

2 statement contains material that could be considered exculpatory to the

3 accused, but certainly the evidence of the witness is his testimony today,

4 not his prior statement.


6 JUDGE KWON: If the witness confirms the veracity of this

7 statement, there is no reason to reject it.

8 MR. SAXON: Well, I think the reason -- one reason, Your Honour

9 Judge Kwon, would be that it would go against the practice of this trial,

10 that prior statements by witnesses, whether they're -- whether the

11 accuracy is confirmed or not, they are -- they have not, as a rule, been

12 admitted into evidence.

13 JUDGE KWON: What would be the difference from the so-called 89(F)

14 practice?

15 MR. SAXON: Well, one difference would be, Your Honour, that there

16 was no read-back -- there was no declaration given under Rule -- you asked

17 for 89 or Rule 92 bis, because I heard --

18 JUDGE KWON: 89(F). If witnesses are given opportunity to read

19 through their statement, if it confirms that what the content is true, and

20 if it is relevant, I would say, speaking for myself, there would be no

21 reason to reject it.

22 MR. SAXON: Well, there -- I take Your Honour's point that it may

23 be consistent with Rule 89(F) at this time. However, the witness has

24 provided his testimony on these events. We don't see any reason then why

25 this -- the purpose --

Page 42734

1 JUDGE KWON: That's a different point.

2 MR. SAXON: The purpose of Rule 89(F) is to save time, not to pile

3 on additional evidence, Your Honour.

4 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Ibraj, I'd like to ask you why as a Kosovo

5 Albanian you did not support the KLA, who were supposed to be fighting for

6 your liberation.

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I did not support the KLA because

8 the KLA was not a state. The KLA was against the state.

9 JUDGE ROBINSON: Is that the only reason?

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, for only this reason. I didn't

11 want to be against the state.

12 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Ibraj, you gave an indication early in your

13 evidence that, generally speaking, Albanians who kept weapons or a weapon,

14 normally for protection, were simply allowed to keep it. No action was

15 taken against them. Why was it that regularly action was taken against

16 you for possessing a weapon?

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] These were rare occasions. For

18 example, a person who possessed a weapon in the past and now and was not

19 against the state, did not steal, did not perform any illegal activities,

20 nobody would touch him for possessing that weapon.

21 JUDGE BONOMY: That's what I understood. So why were you touched

22 so often for possessing your weapon?

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Because I did not hide my weapon in

24 my house, but I carried it with me everywhere I went, to cafeteria outside

25 my home, and they found it in my possession and took it.

Page 42735

1 JUDGE BONOMY: And why did you carry it around with you?

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Because I wished to do that.

3 JUDGE BONOMY: Right. On a separate matter, can you tell me why

4 you, a person who was regularly imprisoned for carrying the weapon, was

5 chosen to head the local security?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There were no security forces there.

7 It was the local defence of the village. The village had no problems with

8 me or caused by me ever. You couldn't find a better defender for the

9 village than me.

10 JUDGE BONOMY: So does that mean that it was up to the Albanian

11 population of the village to choose the person who would have the

12 responsibility of local defence?

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. And not only in my village but

14 in every village the villagers themselves elected their leader.

15 JUDGE BONOMY: Who then decided that of the 17 people in that

16 position, you should be in charge?

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The chairman of the municipality.

18 JUDGE BONOMY: And just one final matter, separate matter. The

19 incident in which you killed a person also involved the apprehension of

20 eight KLA suspects and the handing over of these suspects to the SUP. Can

21 you tell me what happened to them?

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I know they were sentenced.

23 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

24 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Ibraj, if I can take up my colleague's question

25 further as for your appointment. My understanding is that you were

Page 42736












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13 English transcripts.













Page 42737

1 appointed by the president of municipality. Am I right?

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

3 JUDGE KWON: And whose name is Momcilo Stanojevic.

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Stanojevic.

5 JUDGE KWON: I take it that he's a Serb by his name.

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think he's a Montenegrin.

7 JUDGE KWON: Is the president of the municipality elected by the

8 people or appointed by somebody?

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] By the people.

10 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.

11 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Saxon.

12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Just one question, Mr. Robinson.

13 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Milosevic.

14 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

15 Q. Mr. Ibraj, a moment ago Mr. Robinson asked you about the reasons

16 why you were against the KLA when the KLA was fighting for Albanian

17 freedom. I want to ask you, through all those years, were Albanians in

18 Kosovo not free, or was their freedom restricted and needed defending?

19 A. To my knowledge, and I speak only on my behalf, I had no problems

20 whatsoever. The state existed. If you got involved in politics, in

21 thefts, robberies, the state would arrest you. One would have a job. The

22 state would secure that job for that person. So for the good persons the

23 state existed, and for the bad ones -- I have made some mistakes and was

24 arrested, but I do not blame the state for these mistakes.

25 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. Thank you. Mr. Saxon.

Page 42738

1 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for Mr. Saxon, please.

2 Cross-examined by Mr. Saxon:

3 Q. You said a minute ago that if you got involved in politics, in

4 thefts, robberies, the state would arrest you. Why would the state arrest

5 you because you got involved in politics?

6 A. Because the state gets involved in it, as far as I know.

7 Q. When you were still living in Kosovo during the 1990s, was it

8 considered a bad thing to become involved in politics?

9 A. I was a member of the Democratic League of Kosovo. I'm going to

10 tell you something that happened to me. During the elections, which were

11 held in the school of our village, I went there and vote and -- got all

12 the ID cards of all my family member, went there and voted at the school.

13 When I came back, I found the police patrol in front of my house. They

14 asked me, "Where have you been?" I said, "I went to vote." "Did you

15 vote?" they asked me. I said, "Yes." They said, "For whom did you vote?"

16 I said "Rugova." And they just smiled, and then they left and I did not

17 have any problems.

18 No one has -- no one has hindered us from voting, but however, to

19 get involved in politics, these were only authorised people, because as

20 far as I know -- what do I know about politics? Why they have not

21 imprisoned Ibrahim Rugova because he was head of the chairman of the

22 Democratic League of Kosovo --

23 Q. Mr. Ibraj, I'm going to cut you off now. I think you've tried to

24 answer my question. You said only authorised people could get involved in

25 politics. What kind of persons were authorised to get involved in

Page 42739

1 politics in Kosovo during the 1990's?

2 A. Well, for example, Ibrahim Rugova. Ibrahim Rugova was our

3 chairman. We voted for him.

4 Q. Who had the power to decide who could be authorised to get

5 involved in politics in Kosovo and who could not?

6 A. I don't know what right they had or who had that right. What I

7 know is that Ibrahim Rugova was the chairman of the Democratic League of

8 Kosovo, for Kosova, and we voted for him.

9 Q. The -- at that time during the 1990s, Kosovo was controlled by a

10 government led by this accused; right?

11 A. I did not understand the question.

12 Q. The government of Kosovo -- the government of Kosovo, Kosovo was

13 part of -- is still part of the Republic of Serbia, and for a long time

14 this accused was president of the Republic of Serbia; correct?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Do you know of people that you knew who were -- besides yourself,

17 who suffered harassment by the police because they were getting involved

18 in politics, other Albanians?

19 A. I know a lot of them.

20 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic.

21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I have an objection. Mr. Saxon is

22 asking the witness since you are mistreated, were any other Albanians

23 mistreated because they participated in the political life? The witness

24 said he was not abused because he was politically involved. He said, in

25 fact, he was not abused at all. He made mistakes. He's not blaming the

Page 42740

1 police. And he said a moment ago that he was arrested for illegal

2 possession of weapons, not because he was politically involved.

3 MR. SAXON: Well, now that the --

4 JUDGE ROBINSON: Perhaps the word "harassment" is inappropriate,

5 Mr. Saxon.

6 MR. SAXON: Well, Your Honour, the witness has just explained how

7 a can of petrol was left in front of his home by policemen after he became

8 politically active. So the word harassment, with all due respect, sounds

9 quite fair. I'll try to rephrase my question now that the accused

10 unfortunately has again put words into the witness's mouth.

11 Is this an appropriate time for the break?

12 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. Yes, it is. We'll take the break for 20

13 minutes.

14 --- Recess taken at 12.16 p.m.

15 --- On resuming at 12.41 p.m.

16 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Saxon and Mr. Milosevic, the Chamber has

17 decided to admit the letter to the witness.

18 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be Exhibit D361.


20 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Robinson.

21 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Milosevic.

22 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please. Microphone, please.

23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I have an impression that there is a

24 problem with interpretation because it goes into Serbian through English.

25 I understood Mr. Saxon as mentioning a can of petrol. I didn't hear the

Page 42741

1 witness mentioning a can of petrol. It was also in the transcript, by the

2 way. And he didn't talk about petrol, he talked about a police patrol

3 that was in front of his house. So maybe we should look into what he

4 really said and how it was interpreted. And this is not the only instance

5 about which I have certain doubts.

6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you, Mr. Milosevic. We'll look into that

7 matter. There is a big difference, of course, between a can of petrol and

8 a police patrol.

9 Mr. Milosevic, it might be as well if you yourself looked into the

10 transcript, because you have the familiarity with the language, to pick up

11 mistakes and bring it to our attention.

12 MR. KAY: On the LiveNote record, page 51, line 14, "police

13 patrol."

14 JUDGE ROBINSON: "Police patrol."

15 MR. KAY: Yes. Just as we understood the evidence to be as well.

16 MR. SAXON: Then I stand corrected, Your Honour.

17 JUDGE KWON: And if I can be assisted by Mr. Kay with the number,

18 because I was away. This exhibit, the Registrar said it was D361, but I

19 couldn't follow. It should be 302 or something.

20 MR. KAY: Your Honour, I haven't been into that.

21 JUDGE KWON: That can be checked.

22 MR. KAY: We could check it, yes.

23 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Saxon.

24 MR. SAXON: Thank you, Your Honour.

25 Q. Apart from your own experience after you became involved with

Page 42742

1 Mr. Rugova's party, can you tell us what happened to other persons that

2 you knew who became politically active during the 1990s?

3 A. I do not understand the question.

4 Q. Well, before the break, in response to a question from

5 Mr. Milosevic, you mentioned that the -- if you got involved in politics,

6 the state would arrest you, and I simply want to explore that point a

7 little bit with you. And can you tell us, please, whether you can recall

8 specific instances of people who were arrested because they got involved

9 in politics.

10 A. I said even before that elections were proceeded freely, were held

11 freely. We were able to vote freely for whoever we wanted. As regards

12 the state, the state did not prevent us from voting for Rugova.

13 Q. Why did you say that if you got involved in politics the state

14 would arrest you?

15 A. I cannot recall how I said it. If you get involved in politics,

16 the state arrests you. When I -- I already said elections were held

17 freely. I voted freely myself. I met the police patrol, and I explained

18 what I've done, and no one told -- no one asked me anything, no one told

19 me anything.

20 Q. The police patrol who came by your house, was that the patrol of

21 Serb policemen or the Albanian local defence?

22 A. No, the local defence did not exist at the time.

23 Q. Do you know -- do you know who sent the police patrol past your

24 house at that time?

25 A. The police patrol did not come directly to my house, but they were

Page 42743

1 patrolling along the streets, villages, cities, and then I ran into them.

2 Q. All right.

3 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Saxon, I assume there is some mistake in

4 translation in relation to the politics, so if I can clarify.

5 Mr. Ibraj, to the question of the accused whether there was any

6 problem in relation to your freedom or something like that, you answered

7 like this: "To my knowledge, and I speak only on my behalf, I had no

8 problems whatsoever. The state existed." And then you said, "If you got

9 involved in politics, in thefts, robberies, the state would arrest you."

10 Is it a correct interpretation of what you had said?

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I said it even earlier, that I've

12 been to prison several times myself for my mistakes. The state warned me

13 because I was illegally -- I was in illegal possession of weapons. And

14 not only me, but 80 per cent of Albanians were in prisons for illegal

15 possession of weapons. They were in prison for thefts, beating, and the

16 state -- killings, and the state imprisoned them.

17 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Ibraj, you mentioned the politics as well for the

18 reason the state can arrest you. Is it right?

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I do not know that state arrested

20 people for being involved in politics.

21 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.


23 Q. I'll move on to another topic. During your direct testimony, you

24 described an incident where you killed a man in your village, and you

25 explained how, after that incident, you called for the OSCE observers and

Page 42744












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Page 42745

1 the SUP. Do you recall that?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. The -- and you explained that the observers from the OSCE came to

4 your village, both not only at the time of that incident but before it and

5 afterwards. Do you recall that?

6 A. Yes. Yes.

7 Q. The OSCE mission, observer mission, was in Kosovo from

8 approximately early November 1998 to around the 20th of March, 1999. Can

9 you recall approximately when this incident took place?

10 A. The incident occurred sometime in -- sometime in February,

11 mid-February, 1999.

12 Q. Do you recall --

13 A. I'm not certain, but I think it was like this.

14 Q. Can you recall the name of the person who you killed that day?

15 A. Yes, yes.

16 Q. Can you tell us the name of the person, please.

17 A. Sulejman Bajrami.

18 Q. Sir, your nickname is Mush or Musa; is that correct?

19 A. No.

20 Q. What is your nickname?

21 A. My father's name is Mush. However, everyone called him Musk.

22 Q. And you are also known in the area of your village and around

23 Gjakove as Mush or Musk at times. Isn't that true?

24 A. My father, not me.

25 Q. I'd like to show you a copy of the statement that you provided to

Page 42746

1 the ICTY. Perhaps the first page, a copy could be placed on the ELMO.

2 You'll see -- Mr. Ibraj, do you see your signature at the bottom

3 of the first page?

4 A. Yes, yes.

5 Q. And your initials on that page as well?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And your initials on the bottom of the preceding pages? Do you

8 see that?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. And on the very last page, if you turn to the last page, it says

11 in English "Signed," and then we see the name "Muharem Ibraj," with your

12 initials. Is that your signature there?

13 JUDGE KWON: The previous page.

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.


16 Q. There is a witness acknowledgement which says that: "This

17 statement has been read over to me in the Serbian language and is true to

18 the best of my knowledge and recollection." Do you recall having this

19 statement read over to you in the Serbian language?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. If you go back to the very first page, please.

22 MR. SAXON: The cover page. Thank you, Judge Kwon.

23 Q. The cover page, you see at the top there's the last name Ibraj,

24 and then it says first name Muharem. To the right, it says father's first

25 name: Musta -- or Musa. And then there's a word that says nickname:

Page 42747

1 Musk. That's your nickname, is it not?

2 A. No. That's the nickname of my father.

3 JUDGE ROBINSON: Two comments there, Mr. Saxon. It may be that

4 the nickname Musk relates to the father's first name, which is on the

5 right. And secondly, would that part have been read over to him?

6 MR. SAXON: Yes, Your Honour.

7 JUDGE ROBINSON: Is that the practice?

8 MR. SAXON: Absolutely, Your Honour. The practice of the OTP is

9 to read over all of the information, including the names, date of birth,

10 et cetera, et cetera. Absolutely.

11 Q. Around Gjakove, sir, some people -- let me step back from that.

12 Your father, his nickname then is Musk. Would he also -- is he still

13 alive, your father?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And he's also known as Mush or Musa Jakupi; is that right?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. In fact, around Gjakove, you are known, for example, not only by

18 the name Muharem Ibraj but people might refer to you as Muharem Jakupi or

19 even Mush Jakupi. Isn't that right?

20 A. No, no.

21 Q. People do refer to you with the last name Jakupi because of your

22 father. Isn't that correct?

23 A. No. Muharem Jakupi is another person. Those who do not know my

24 last name Ibraj, they call me Muharem Muski. No one calls me by the name

25 of Muharem Jakupi.

Page 42748

1 Q. Several members of the Jakupi family were members of the local

2 security force in your village, were they not? It's a big family?

3 A. There were only six members, six members of this family.

4 Q. And several of them were members of the local defence force in

5 your village; right?

6 A. The local defence.

7 Q. Right. Several members of the Jakupi family in your village were

8 part of the local defence unit; right?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. And because your father was a well-known man in the area, some

11 people around Gjakove and in your village referred to this local defence

12 force in Osek Hilja as the Mush Jakupi unit; correct?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. It's true, isn't it, that in Kosovo generally, and around Gjakove

15 in particular, you and other members of this local defence unit, the Mush

16 Jakupi unit, had a reputation and still have a reputation for criminal

17 violence. Isn't that true?

18 A. I do not understand the question.

19 Q. Isn't it true that you and the members of the local defence unit

20 in the village where you were and in Gjakove have a reputation as being

21 violent criminals? Yes or no.

22 A. No.

23 MR. SAXON: I have another document I'd like to place on the ELMO,

24 if I could ask for the usher's assistance.

25 Q. I'd like to show you something. This is a chapter from the report

Page 42749

1 by the OSCE called "As Seen, As Told."

2 MR. SAXON: Your Honours, it's from Exhibit 106. It's in the

3 chapter on Djakovica, pages 170 to 187. And perhaps if -- thank you. If

4 the first page could be put on the ELMO.

5 We see there is a section there called "The Jakupi family and

6 'local security arrangements.'" It says -- it begins there at the top of

7 the first paragraph: "Djakovica municipality had its own particular

8 'local security arrangements.'" And there's a paragraph there that

9 describes it.

10 If we can turn over to the next page, please. And I'm sorry if

11 the -- yes. Thank you very much. If we could see a little bit more of

12 the first page, because I need to read from the top. So if the page could

13 be moved down a bit on the ELMO.

14 Q. You see a paragraph that says: "In practice, the group was run

15 by a traditionally 'loyal' local Kosovo Albanian clan, the 'Jakupis.'"

16 And then in the following paragraph, sir, it says the following:

17 "The OSCE-KVM received many reports from local Kosovo Albanians who

18 claimed to have been ill-treated or harassed by members of the Jakupi

19 'security police.' They said they were threatened and beaten if they

20 were seen talking to OSCE-KVM patrols. The OSCE-KVM also received reports

21 that 'policemen' of this group sexually harassed women when they arrested

22 them or invited them to the police station for interviewing."

23 It's true then, sir, isn't it, that in the Gjakove area you and

24 the so-called local defence force that you led had a reputation for

25 mistreating and abusing the civilian population. Right?

Page 42750

1 A. First of all, the Jakupi family does not exist. This is Ibraj

2 family, my family.

3 Second, no forces apart from local defence existed. What belongs

4 to Jakupi family, these come from people who do not know who I am or who

5 is a local policeman. And then probably they assume so and gave that

6 statement.

7 Q. Well, first of all, you acknowledged a few minutes ago that your

8 local defence force was sometimes known as the Mush Jakupi unit. Second

9 of all, I'm going to show you, sir, that many people knew exactly who you

10 were and who the members of your so-called local defence force was.

11 MR. SAXON: May I ask the usher's assistance again, please.

12 Perhaps if copies could be distributed to the other people in the

13 courtroom, please. And if a copy could be placed on the ELMO. First the

14 first page.

15 This is a printout from the Internet. It's from a website of the

16 Kosova Crisis Centre, and it's the news from Monday, the 1st of March,

17 1999. And if we can turn to the second page, please. And if we could --

18 actually, if we could move the page up a bit, because I need to look at

19 the bottom of the page. Thank you.

20 Q. We see at the bottom of the page, sir, there's a paragraph which

21 says the following: "A notorious Albanian collaborationist with the

22 Serbian police, Muharem Ibraj -" that's you - "killed a local Albanian in

23 Osek Hilja village near Gjakove, LDK sources said. The Albanian, Sulejman

24 M. Bajrami, age 45, was killed after having had his house surrounded by

25 Serbian forces."

Page 42751

1 Now, this information was reported by the political party that you

2 said that you belonged to. Can you explain why the party that you

3 belonged to would describe you as "a notorious Albanian collaborationist

4 with the Serbian police"?

5 A. Yes, I can. Why wasn't this report made at the beginning of the

6 statement, when the killing was done? Second, the law existed. The state

7 existed. There are documents. I don't have the document myself, but

8 these documents exist. The court in Peja is in possession of documents

9 and everything has been clarified.

10 There were ten people. One of them was killed and nine others

11 escaped. If it had been for the Serbian forces, everyone would have been

12 killed, not just one person.

13 Q. And why do you say if it had been up to the Serbian forces

14 everyone there would have been killed, not just one person? Why do you

15 say that?

16 A. Because here it says that the Serbian forces. Serbian forces were

17 not there. Here it was only a group of ten people, Albanians belonging to

18 the local defence.

19 Q. You and the local defence force, the group of local defencemen

20 that you led. You were there; right?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Can you explain why your political party would refer to you in

23 such disparaging terms as "a notorious Albanian collaborationist with the

24 Serbian police"? That was my original question, but you haven't answered

25 it.

Page 42752












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13 English transcripts.













Page 42753

1 A. The Democratic Party gave this statement because I did not support

2 them at the time. I have neither been against the Democratic Party -- I

3 haven't been against the Democratic Party, and I haven't been against the

4 state as well.

5 Q. I'd like to show you another document, sir. If I can ask for the

6 usher's patient assistance one more time.

7 This is another printout from the Internet. It's a printout from

8 the website of the Council for the Defence of Human Rights and Freedoms in

9 Pristina. It's their report number 461. It's entitled "On the Violation

10 of Human Rights and Freedoms in Kosova from 1 March Until 7 March, 1999."

11 If we can turn to the second page, please. At the top of that

12 page there's a paragraph that starts with the word "28 February." And

13 that paragraph says the following: "The so-called local police, led by

14 Muharem Ibraj from Osek Hilja, and the Serbian police, raided the house of

15 and executed Sulejman Myftar Bajrami, age 45, in the presence of his

16 family members. They arrested his guests, Xhavit Osmani and Bajram Luli."

17 Now, again, why would this organisation say that you executed this

18 man if you were merely acting in self-defence? Can you explain that?

19 A. I have given a statement as regards this event. However, this

20 organisation, not only for me but also for all those Albanians who did not

21 cooperate with them, they wrote the same things.

22 Q. I see. And none of these statements that you say exist that

23 demonstrate that you acted in self-defence, none of those statements are

24 with you here today. Is that your position?

25 A. No.

Page 42754

1 JUDGE ROBINSON: I believe he said, Mr. Saxon, that the

2 investigating judge gave him a verdict of self-defence.

3 MR. SAXON: Correct, Your Honour.

4 Q. Do you have any documentation supporting what you said regarding

5 the verdict of the investigating judge?

6 A. No, I do not have with me -- such documents with me, because when

7 I left Kosova I did not take anything with me. I fled Kosova, so I was

8 unable to take any documents with me.

9 Q. Well, sir, you managed to take the document that you presented to

10 the Trial Chamber about an hour ago with you. You seemed to manage to

11 take that document with you, D361, which allegedly is a threat against you

12 from the KLA. Wouldn't it also have been important to take documents

13 related to your legal situation?

14 A. The letter that the KLA sent me, I have kept it with me all along,

15 and I even searched for the person who wrote the letter, and I wanted to

16 ask him why they sent me the letter, whereas the verdict of self-defence

17 didn't -- I wasn't interested in holding it with me all the time. The

18 court documents are there, the documents must be there as well.

19 JUDGE ROBINSON: Of what ethnicity was the investigating judge?

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think he was Montenegrin.


22 Q. I'd like to show you another document, sir. And we have an

23 Albanian version of this document, so if that could also be given to the

24 witness as well so he can read along. And if a copy could be placed on

25 the ELMO, please.

Page 42755

1 This document comes from another Kosovo website, known as Llapi.

2 I also believe it's called in the Albanian language Forumi Shqiptar. And

3 there is an entry posted on this website from April 2004 by a man named

4 Faton Mehmetaj.

5 And Mr. Usher, if you could turn the page to the second page,

6 please, and Mr. Ibraj, if you could follow along with me on the second

7 page of the Albanian version. From the middle of the second page of the

8 English version and at the top of the second page in the Albanian version,

9 the author asks the following question: "Why are some Albanian-speaking

10 criminals, like Muharem Ibraj and others of his calibre who participated

11 in many inconceivable crimes, rapes and tortures, free? They have

12 criminal files and are known in the massacres of Beleg, Meja, Gjakove,

13 Lubeniq, Bistrazin, etc."

14 Is it still your position, sir, that you and the local defence

15 force you led do not have a reputation for violence in Kosovo?

16 A. If these statements were true, the local police would not have

17 existed during the wartime, and someone would have killed us like they

18 have killed police, soldiers, army generals, have bombed and all these

19 things. The statements have been issued after the KFOR came there and

20 people could do and say what they wanted, what they liked, because during

21 the time that the state existed, whoever committed a crime, even a petty

22 crime, he would end up in gaol and be sentenced.

23 Q. And as you pointed out, sir, after the war ended in 1999, people

24 could come back, people had been expelled, and as you put it, say what

25 they wanted, what they liked; correct?

Page 42756

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Because prior to that time, Kosovo Albanians who were disloyal to

3 the Serb regime could not do that; correct?

4 A. I don't understand your question, sir.

5 Q. Well, it was a very simple question. If you can't answer it, I

6 will simply move on.

7 Do you recall what you were doing on the morning of 20th --

8 A. I am not understanding your question, sir.

9 Q. Well, I will repeat it, then. After the war ended in 1999, when

10 people who had been expelled came back, as you put it, they could say what

11 they wanted, correct, because they couldn't do that under the Serb regime?

12 A. After the war was over, I fled Kosova, and I don't know what

13 happened in Kosova after that.

14 Q. Do you recall what you were doing on the 27th of April, 1999, in

15 the morning?

16 A. I don't remember.

17 Q. Do you recall where your so-called local defence unit was

18 operating on that morning?

19 A. I don't know what the local defence unit did that morning or which

20 place it was. I know that it existed.

21 Q. A few days before the 27th of April, the police officer Milutin

22 Prascevic and some others had been killed near Gjakove; correct?

23 A. I heard that they were killed in the Meja village.

24 MR. SAXON: May I ask the usher's assistance again.

25 Q. I'd like you to look at this photograph, sir, if you will. No,

Page 42757

1 that's -- I apologise. That's the wrong photograph. Of the witness.

2 Sir, this young woman's name is Merfidete Selmani. She's from the

3 village of Dobroz in the municipality of Gjakove. Do you know anything

4 about her?

5 A. No.

6 Q. Do you know anything that might impinge upon her character or her

7 ability to tell the truth?

8 A. I don't know this woman, and I don't recall to have ever seen her.

9 Q. Well, I'm going to put this -- this statement of this woman in

10 front of you, sir, and on the ELMO, so that people can follow along.

11 MR. SAXON: Your Honour, this witness, Merfidete Selmani,

12 testified on the 16th of July, 2002. Her statement was entered into

13 evidence under Rule 92 bis as Exhibit 265.

14 Q. Because you see, this young woman travelled through Meja on that

15 day, on the 27th of April, a few days after the policeman was killed

16 there.

17 MR. SAXON: And, Mr. Usher, if you could turn to page 5, please,

18 of the statement. First of all, I need to read something at the bottom of

19 page 5. Move the page up a bit, please.

20 Q. The last paragraph begins: "Just before approaching Meja at about

21 1200 hours, I saw Serbian policemen who were outside the house located on

22 top of a hill and at the foot of the hill close to a meadow. The convoy

23 was proceeding slowly. We passed a vulcaniser (tyre repair shop) in

24 Meja."

25 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Saxon, just a minute. We're checking to see

Page 42758

1 whether that witness was a protected witness.

2 MR. SAXON: I don't believe that she was, Your Honour. I'm -- I'm

3 virtually certain that she was not, Your Honour.

4 JUDGE ROBINSON: Are you using a redacted copy or an original?

5 MR. SAXON: At this time I'm using an unredacted copy, Your

6 Honour, because it's my understanding that this was not a protected

7 witness.

8 JUDGE KWON: The Bench was told that the exhibit was under seal.

9 MR. SAXON: I don't understand why that would be, and that is news

10 to me, Your Honour. Can I -- perhaps simply to simplify matters, could we

11 go into private session?

12 JUDGE ROBINSON: I think we're getting some information now.

13 You can proceed, Mr. Saxon.

14 MR. SAXON: Thank you, Your Honour.

15 Q. Then proceeding to the top of page 6, the witness said the

16 following: "There my father's uncle, Bajram Selmani, approximately 78 ...

17 told us that Mush Jakupi was there with his sons. Bajram said that

18 Muharem Jakupi had ordered Bajram's son, Jonuz Selmani, about 41 years

19 old, to go out of the convoy and to run and join the place where the other

20 men were detained. That is what I heard from Bajram Selmani in that

21 moment. I knew that Mush Jakupi and his sons were Albanian local

22 policemen from Osek Hilja, Djakovica/Gjakove, who were loyal to the

23 Serbian regime. Actually, I knew that the Jakupis were very dangerous

24 people; they were nasty famous among the Kosovo Albanian people. There

25 was a common expression among the villagers that when someone was badly

Page 42759

1 beaten, these would say that it was like if this person was beaten by Mush

2 Jakupi gang. Muharem Jakupi was one of the sons of Mush."

3 And then the witness continues to talk about how Bajram Selmani

4 was beaten by Bajram Jakupi, son of Mush.

5 Still your position the same, sir, that you and the local defence

6 force that you led in 1999 did not have a reputation as violent criminals?

7 A. Mush Jakupi is 83 years old. He's not capable of beating his own

8 wife or someone else. Nobody dared meddle with the local defence or those

9 who were working there. Whoever did something against the law, then the

10 SUP was dealing with those cases and those persons were -- were

11 responsible to the SUP. We -- none of us dared go to that area because it

12 was a mountainous area and there were KLA members.

13 Just an example: Mihil Abazi's brother was dead in Ramoc. He

14 went to take part in the funeral --

15 Q. That's enough. Thank you, sir. You tried to answer my question.

16 JUDGE BONOMY: You said -- Mr. Saxon, when we talk here about

17 local defence, is that the same as the local security position that the

18 witness held? Is that your assumption?

19 MR. SAXON: Absolutely, Your Honour.

20 JUDGE BONOMY: That's the basis on which you are proceeding.

21 MR. SAXON: That they are synonymous, Your Honour. Absolutely,

22 Your Honour.

23 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

24 MR. SAXON: And I've heard the phrase "local defence," "local

25 security," even "local police," used interchangeably, and you'll see them

Page 42760












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13 English transcripts.













Page 42761

1 in the statements that are already in evidence.

2 Q. No one dared meddle with the local defence because they knew if

3 they did, the local -- the members of the local defence, including

4 yourself, would respond quite brutally. Isn't that true, sir?

5 A. I don't know how Mush Jakupi could have given this statement when

6 he is an invalid, or he is 83 years old.

7 Q. I'm going to show you the statement of another witness, sir, who

8 also places members of your unit at Meja, the day when hundreds of Kosovo

9 Albanians were disappeared and killed.

10 This is -- if this could be provided to the persons in the

11 courtroom because it has not yet -- it has not been admitted into

12 evidence, nor has it been provided to the Defence.

13 And if we could turn, please, to page 5 of this statement. It's a

14 woman by the name of Fatime Hoxha from the town of Gjakove. Actually, she

15 lived in Junik until the war. And on the bottom of page 5, the last

16 paragraph, she describes what she saw when she arrived at a checkpoint at

17 Meja on the 27th of April, 1999. She said this: "I recognised among the

18 perpetrators at the checkpoint in Meja the members of the Albanian family

19 Jakupi who were members of the regular Serbian police. The Jakupis are

20 from the village of Osek, Djakovica. I have known them for ten years. In

21 Meja, I saw Mush Jakupi, approximately 50-55 years old, and his two sons

22 whose names I do not know, and Muharem Jakupi, who is in his 40s. They

23 were wearing the regular blue police uniforms with the insignia

24 'Milicija.' I begged them to release my relatives but they cursed me in

25 Albanian and told me to go to Albania." That's on page 6.

Page 42762

1 Sir, how is it that you just told us that members of your local

2 security unit or local defence unit couldn't go to these areas and we now

3 have two witnesses who said that they were there, they were at Meja, and

4 they were involved in crimes against civilians on the 27th of April? Can

5 you explain that?

6 A. I think you very well know that they are false witnesses, because

7 Mush Jakupi, I told even earlier, he is 83 years old and not 55 years old.

8 I am 51 myself. And we never dared wear -- we couldn't even think of

9 wearing police uniforms because we had our own uniforms. And we never had

10 anything to do with the police. Meja is in another place. Osek is at

11 another entrance. There is a distance between Meja and Osek. I may tell

12 you that I wasn't in Meja until two, three years before the war, because

13 it is situated in another area.

14 Q. The village of Meja is just to the west of the town of Djakovica;

15 correct?

16 A. Correct.

17 Q. So it's approximately five to ten kilometres from the town where

18 you lived, Osek Hilja; right?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Very well. Are you aware, sir, that more than 200 bodies of

21 persons who disappeared at Meja on the 27th of April, 1999, have been

22 exhumed in the town of Batajnica, close to Belgrade?

23 A. I have heard about that after I came to Nis. I saw it in a book

24 on the kidnapped.

25 Q. How do you suppose those bodies got there, sir?

Page 42763

1 A. I told you, it was in 2000 that I read about that for this event.

2 In that book you can find the names of my -- of the six members of my own

3 family as well. But before that, I had -- I had no knowledge of this

4 event.

5 Q. I see. Can we look at the next document, please. It's the

6 statement of Durim Domi. And if copies could be distributed to members of

7 the courtroom, please.

8 This is another ICTY witness statement. It is not in evidence.

9 And if a copy could be placed on the ELMO, please.

10 Statement by a man named Durim Domi from the town of -- or the

11 city of Gjakove itself. And if we could turn to the first page of the

12 text of the statement, which is page 2. And this person is describing

13 what he saw on the 27th of March, 1999, sir, from his house in Djakovica.

14 And the third paragraph, the third sentence, he says this: "On the 27th

15 of March I was in my courtyard together with my family. The police

16 together with members of Mush Jakupi arrived and they broke into the

17 courtyard by forcing the gate. All of us fled up to Qabrat hill. From

18 there we saw police and Mush Jakupi unit members while they were burning

19 the houses of Afrim Domi and Fatmir Domi."

20 The next paragraph, it says: "One could recognise the members of

21 Mush Jakupi unit because they wore plain clothes and they spoke Albanian.

22 They used to cooperate with police. Mush Jakupi members used to report to

23 the police which houses had to be burnt."

24 Do you have any idea how it is that this witness saw the members

25 of your local security unit burning houses in Gjakove on the 27th of

Page 42764

1 March, 1999?

2 A. This is not true. Neither myself nor any of the members of the

3 local defences ever torched a house, a single house, or even the smallest

4 object, I would say.

5 Q. Can we show the witness, finally, another statement, of

6 Mr. Dervishdana. If we could turn to -- this is a statement not in

7 evidence, given to the --

8 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.


10 Q. This is a statement given to the ICTY by a man named Myrvet

11 Dervishdana, who lived on Ymer Grezda Street, in Djakovica.

12 JUDGE KWON: A woman, I guess.

13 MR. SAXON: Excuse me?

14 JUDGE KWON: A female.

15 MR. SAXON: Thank you. I stand corrected, Your Honour.

16 Q. And you mentioned during your direct testimony, sir, that you knew

17 Mr. Emin Dervishdana. Do you recall saying that?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Can we turn to page 8 of this statement, please. Because this

20 statement describes the events on the 25th of March in Djakovica on Ymer

21 Grezda Street, and if we could go to the top of the page, please.

22 The second paragraph, the witness describes how her brother Emin,

23 the man you knew, "... saw an Albanian man, a certain Mush Jakupi, and his

24 group on Ymer Grezda Street. Mush Jakupi was a MUP officer. Before the

25 massacre, I was told by my brother Emin that that day Mush Jakupi's unit

Page 42765

1 was patrolling Ymer Grezda Street. On the same date three Albanian

2 civilians were killed inside a house in the Tyrbe area..."

3 Do you still maintain the same position, sir, that you and the

4 members of your local security unit do not have a reputation for violence?

5 Is that still your position?

6 A. With respect to Tyrbe, Dervishdana was a dervish, a Muslim priest,

7 and even if he turned his gun to fire at me I would have never killed him

8 because he was a religious person. As far as Mush Jakupi is concerned, he

9 was a MUP officer. Being a Serb officer, then I'm happy to hear that

10 Serbia was still keeping in its ranks officers of the age of 83 years and

11 invalids.

12 Q. I will just note that once again you have not answered my

13 question.

14 MR. SAXON: Your Honour, I note the hour. It's a quarter to two.

15 I can stop here and take just a few more minutes tomorrow morning.

16 JUDGE ROBINSON: We will adjourn and resume tomorrow morning at

17 9.00.

18 I should say that the correct number for the exhibit admitted

19 today is D302 not D361. The Registrar will have to find a way to

20 compensate Judge Kwon.

21 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.45 p.m.,

22 to be reconvened on Thursday, the 18th day

23 of August, 2005, at 9.00 a.m.