1 Wednesday, 16 November 2005
2 [Open session]
3 [The witness entered court]
4 [The accused entered court]
5 --- Upon commencing at 9.05 a.m.
6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Let's hear Mr. Kay first.
7 MR. KAY: Yes, Your Honours. Considering matters yesterday on the
8 issue of the accused's health and the apparent hearing problem that he has
9 at the moment, it occurred to us that a system that used to be used in the
10 trial so that he could hear the sound was that there were a couple of
11 speakers on his desk by which he was able to listen to the evidence in
12 whatever language it was, and it's apparent from the reports that the
13 direct sound into his ear chamber from ear pieces are obviously
14 exacerbating the situation.
15 The technical booth had to take away that audio system because,
16 during the stage of the trial when we had protected witnesses, it was able
17 to be heard in other parts of the court what was coming from those
18 speakers. We don't have that issue in the Defence case with the protected
19 witnesses, and it occurs to us that it might alleviate his discomfort and
20 help matters for him if he was willing to undergo this new system of
21 having the speakers back on his table, with an appropriate volume so that
22 he could hear the evidence. Apparently the technical booth are able to do
23 this but would require an approval by the Trial Chamber in introducing
24 such a modification.
25 JUDGE ROBINSON: Well, that's very interesting.
1 [Trial Chamber confers]
2 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic, you heard what Mr. Kay said. What
3 are your views on that?
4 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Robinson, first and foremost,
6 this is but a trifle. It is but a trifle among all the health problems
7 that I have. Certainly it could do no harm. It could only help me
8 because it is true that the headphones bother me a lot. However, this
9 ear, nose, and throat subject is the least of my health problems.
10 JUDGE ROBINSON: Do you wish us to consider that, to try to
11 implement it?
12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, by all means. That would help
13 matters. But I'm just telling you that this is an unimportant matter.
14 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you, Mr. Milosevic.
15 [Trial Chamber confers]
16 JUDGE ROBINSON: We'll consider it.
17 Mr. Nice, please.
18 WITNESS: ZLATKO ODAK [Resumed]
19 [Witness answered through interpreter]
20 Cross-examined by Mr. Nice: [Continued]
21 Q. Yesterday, you, when dealing with the proposition that the events
22 in Djakovica had been recorded in other collections of evidence, you made
23 an observation that if the source was a veteran of the KLA, and it came
24 out as Mr. Oker and then you referred to Mr. Walker. What were you doing
25 suggesting that Mr. Walker was a veteran of the KLA?
1 A. Mr. Nice, I'm not the one who is saying it. That's what members
2 of the terrorist organisation of the KLA said.
3 Q. Are you sure you're not confusing what you'd been prepared to say
4 adverse to Holbrooke or General Clark about being veterans with what you
5 were being told to say about Mr. Walker, against whom has never been
6 suggested is a veteran of the KLA?
7 A. Well, I was not prepared to say anything, Mr. Nice, but possibly I
8 myself made a mistake.
9 Q. Let's look at that book "As Seen, As Told." What access to that
10 book were you given by either the committee of experts or by Mr. Djosan or
11 by anyone else?
12 A. I read only the parts of that book that pertain to Djakovica.
13 That was about three years ago, a bit less.
14 Q. Who gave you the book or parts of the book?
15 A. General Djosan.
16 Q. And did you acquaint yourself with the methodology of the book and
17 the fact that it was prepared on the basis of individual witness
18 statements taken from other people?
19 A. No. I didn't read other parts. I only read the parts that
20 pertained to Djakovica, as I said.
21 Q. Did you make yourself aware of the methodology by which the book
22 had been prepared?
23 A. No, Mr. Nice. I'm not interested.
24 Q. Well, you make observations about the falsity and inaccuracy of
25 the book. Did you look to the book to see the degree to which it also
1 covered bad things done by the KLA? Did you do that?
2 A. As far as I know, from what I talked about with my friends and
3 acquaintances, in the first part of that book there is no mention
4 whatsoever of KLA crimes.
5 Q. I see. Well, let's look at just a passage of it. We don't have
6 time to go through it in detail, but if we can just look at one passage on
7 this book, which is -- I forget the exhibit number. 106. In the English
8 if we can look at page 172, and we'll bring you the B/C/S equivalent. I
9 only want you to look at two passages, or consider two passages with us.
10 The first on the left hand -- Mr. Prendergast, it's on the
11 left-hand side of page 173. That's it. Correct. The beginning of NATO
12 -- if you can find this passage, please, there is a paragraph that
13 begins: "The beginning of NATO airstrikes against the FRY on the 24th of
14 March triggered an immediate intensification of the violence and
15 destruction in the centre of Djakovica, in the course of which many houses
16 were burned, shops looted, and Kosovo Albanians killed. During the night,
17 police officers and paramilitaries set the old market quarter on fire.
18 Some of the paramilitaries present were described as wearing camouflage
19 uniforms with a tiger's face on the sleeve patches. Local residents also
20 identified local Serbs and 'Gypsies' as participating in shooting directly
21 into the houses of Kosovo Albanian residents. Tanks, trucks, and heavy
22 artillery were seen in the town."
23 This comes from a different collection of evidence. What do you
24 say about that? Every sentence false?
25 A. During those first days, all the vehicles had not been out of the
1 barracks yet, and I took them to the regions where the battalion units
2 were deployed. Every day I went through the centre of town and by this
3 locality that you refer to. However, I did not notice any such thing, and
4 my subordinates did not report to me that they had seen something like
5 that either.
6 Q. Mr. Odak, you were the senior military person in the town at the
7 time. Here is an account that makes reference to paramilitaries, dreadful
8 event burning the old market quarter, looting of shops. Is it possible it
9 was done and you didn't know about it because you were engaged in other
10 work, or is it your evidence that this account must be false? I just want
11 to know what your position is.
12 A. There must have been crime, like in any war, but as far as I
13 follow this, the organs of the Ministry of the Interior, as well as
14 members of the military department, had the duty to provide security for
15 shops and businesses. There must have been crime, and that has to be
16 condemned and the perpetrators have to be brought to justice, but these
17 were probably just individual cases.
18 Q. If you're now saying it's possible that right at that first day
19 there was crime committed by individuals to the extent of burning the
20 market and looting the shops, can you help us, please, with what was done,
21 to your knowledge, if anything, to bring the perpetrators to justice.
22 A. First of all, it's not that I said that this happened on the first
23 day. The war lasted three months. It could have happened on any other
24 day too. I personally am not aware of these things because it's not my
25 job. This was done by the Ministry of the Interior. They brought into
1 custody all the persons who were caught committing a crime.
2 Q. Well, if you can point us to any record of any person who
3 committed a crime in the form of looting or burning Djakovica in that
4 time of March, please do so. But let's look at the right-hand side of the
5 same page, just to deal with a point of evidence that you've already
6 given. Please find the paragraph that begins like this: "From the 25th
7 of March, hundreds of local residents moved out to the villages
8 surrounding Djakovica, going especially to Raca, Moglica, Meja in the
9 hills to the west of the town where, at the same time, many IDPs arrived
10 in escorted columns from villages further west --" Internally displaced
11 persons, I beg your pardon, "... arrived in escorted columns from villages
12 further west near the Albanian border. Some also moved to houses in
13 Brekovac, the Gypsy neighbourhood of Djakovica, which they considered to
14 be safer. An interviewee saw the VJ moving from their barracks into the
15 compound of San Antonio Catholic church."
16 Well, now, I actually read passages out of order but I'll come
17 back to the other passage I wanted to look at. On this passage, is this
18 movement of residents correctly described?
19 A. First of all, Mr. Nice, in response to your first question, there
20 were no criminal cases in my unit and I never had any such cases. Had I
21 had such cases, I would have taken measures against the perpetrators,
22 measures envisaged by law, that is. You cannot ask me to provide such
23 documents because that is not my job, to bring criminals into custody.
24 You can ask the organs of the Ministry of the Interior for that, not me.
25 As for the movements of the population, I referred to that
1 yesterday too. People sought shelter where they thought they'd be safer.
2 Q. Is the account accurate? Just yes or no.
3 A. Well, I cannot give a mere yes or no answer, Mr. Nice. Many
4 inhabitants, especially in areas where the terrorists were, left these
5 areas and went to where they felt safer, like the town of Djakovica. I
6 know that many inhabitants went to Moglica, Raca, Petrusa.
7 Q. Very well. Is it right --
8 A. Also there were people in Brekovac too, yes.
9 Q. Is it right that the VJ moved into the barracks at the Catholic
10 church in Djakovica?
11 A. Mr. Nice, that facility that borders on the barracks, there is
12 only a wall in between, well, practically we were neighbours for many
13 years, almost 20 years. We had excellent relations with them. I do not
14 recall what the name of the prior of the monastery is. I think it's
15 Father Lovre, or something like that. At the request of my commander,
16 Colonel Djosan, I went to him because we had people who were seriously
17 wounded. And in terms of logistics, I thought it would be best if we
18 could temporarily put them up there. The gentleman I mentioned accepted
19 that. We promised that we would not bring anything in or, rather, that we
20 would not bring any weapons in. That is a monastery. It's not a church.
21 The church is about 50 metres away.
22 We asked them to take all their valuables out, which they did, and
23 when we left the building after about ten days, when we returned to our
24 own premises, and even the commander respected that and did not bring
25 weapons into the building --
1 Q. We'll see a little more about that later.
2 A. -- because -- because --
3 Q. It's right, isn't it, that the VJ was seeking the protection of a
4 church building? Did that seem to you to accord with the principles of
5 war, for the army to seek the protection of church buildings?
6 A. Mr. Nice, the army did not seek any protection in that building.
7 That's where the army put up its most seriously wounded men, because
8 carrying them further away would have been crazy and impossible at the
9 time. What mattered the most to us were the lives of our soldiers.
10 Q. Looking at the end of the previous paragraph, which I'll take
11 shortly, having dealt with the movement of people in the town, it says:
12 "They generally went to relatives or friends in other parts of the town,
13 or to villages in the nearby hills, so that about half of the population
14 remained in the town at the end of the NATO bombing, according to local
15 estimates (as compared with other towns in Kosovo, including Pec, which
16 were virtually emptied.)"
17 Now, this part of the report is something you definitely accept as
18 accurate, isn't it, because it matches your own evidence, that half the
19 people were left in Djakovica. Yes?
20 A. No. I didn't say that anybody left Djakovica. I don't have such
21 information, no.
22 Q. Can we look, please -- sorry.
23 A. I didn't say that half of the population remained in Djakovica. I
24 said that the population of Djakovica had probably doubled by the end of
25 the war.
1 Q. Very well. Let's look at D321, tab 30, one of your statements to
2 the commission, just so that I can understand something that isn't quite
3 clear from your evidence.
4 You were the commander of this anti-aircraft logistics unit, as
5 you've told us, but in fact, as tab 30 reveals, if we can place it on the
6 overhead projector, according to this of your three statements, and it's
7 not the same as in the other two, at least not the same as in one of the
8 other ones certainly, you formed an intervention company yourself; is that
10 A. The information provided is the same in all statements. There is
11 no difference. Yes, on orders from Colonel Djosan, my commander, because
12 the forward command post of the Pristina Corps and -- well, there were no
13 other units that could intervene if the population were to be attacked by
14 terrorists, and then he ordered me to -- he -- people who guarded the
15 deployment of the units, he ordered me to set up a company that would
16 intervene if the terrorists would attack, and that had to do with
17 everything I mentioned previously.
18 Q. Yes. And you actually headed and led that unit, did you?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. So that if any military unit -- and we can see this from the next
21 part of the paragraph, where it says, "The company had a platoon base
22 composition; a command, a communication section, and three platoons. I
23 was the company commander, I was the only officer with an infantry
24 speciality. The weapons the company had were infantry weapons."
25 Q. So it follows that if any military in Djakovica were committing
1 crimes, cleansing parts of Djakovica, they were acting under your command;
2 is that correct?
3 A. Mr. Nice, that's not correct. You are turning things upside down.
4 I said the unit had been established in order to intervene in the event of
5 a terrorist attack, and it was used only once. It was used only during a
6 blockade in the course of an anti-terrorist operation that was carried in
7 the area of Meja, Pacaj, Racaj and other villages. It was very difficult
8 to put together that unit because other parts of our forces remained short
9 of security once I put that unit together.
10 And once, on one occasion when I was absent for two days, the rest
11 of the unit had to be secured by soldiers who had not been trained for the
12 job, and that put the whole unit in danger.
13 Q. Let me just make the question clearer, I hope, from another --
14 perhaps in another form. Remember we saw all that damage done to
15 Djakovica yesterday on the video? Do you remember that?
16 A. Yes. NATO bombs.
17 Q. Now, you know I've reviewed for you very briefly through one
18 witness, a girl's statement and through a passage from a book by Human
19 Rights Watch, there's an enormous amount of evidence that people were
20 killed and cleansed from Djakovica. Now, my question is this: Was there
21 any other armed unit apart from yours capable, in Djakovica, of doing
22 either, A, the damage to the buildings that we saw; or B, the cleansing by
23 force of the people from Djakovica and the killing of people in Djakovica?
24 Was there any other armed unit apart from your intervention unit?
25 A. First of all, Mr. Nice, people in Djakovica were not killed or
1 cleansed. That is a blatant lie.
2 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... just one minute.
3 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Nice, I was just wondering if there isn't any
4 technical expertise available that would be able to assess the cause of
5 the damage to the building, whether it was from an aerial bomb or an
6 infantry artillery.
7 MR. NICE: Well, Your Honour, you've had some evidence on that and
8 I'm going to come to that as my next question to this witness.
9 JUDGE ROBINSON: All right. Yes.
10 MR. NICE:
11 Q. Can you help us, please, with my question. Was there any other
12 armed unit, apart from the intervention group that you led, capable of
13 damaging the buildings or capable of going to people's houses and killing
14 them and driving them out by force, any other unit in Djakovica?
15 A. Mr. Nice, my unit, first of all, did not have such a purpose. It
16 was not meant for combat at all. It was meant to provide logistics, to
17 supply food, fuel, ammunition, to take care of the wounded, et cetera.
18 That was our main task. And the only time it was engaged, it was engaged
19 during the blockade in the anti-terrorist action near Meja. So it could
20 not have been used for any other purpose nor was it used.
21 Q. Djakovica is a substantial town but it's not huge. Can you point
22 -- was there any other unit - police, military, paramilitary - that you
23 now allow could have been killing people, driving them from their homes,
24 or destroying these buildings?
25 A. I have to repeat that nobody killed people or burned houses.
1 Apart from my unit, I've already said there was a signals unit that
2 catered to the command of the brigade. And as for police units, I don't
3 know how many of them there were. I'm certain there were no paramilitary
5 Q. Let's look at the last part of your statement where you deal with
6 Racaj, where you deal with the seal-off line on the 25th of April.
7 There's been a great deal of evidence, and the accused reviewed it
8 to some degree, showing that people were driven from Racaj. Do you say
9 that that is simply untrue or do you say, "It's possible that some other
10 unit got in there and drove people out but it wasn't my unit"? What's
11 your position?
12 A. It's not true that people were driven out. I explained to you the
13 methods of the terrorists and how they operated. They expelled the
14 population of villages themselves in order to make it look as if they had
15 been expelled by the army. That happened from 1998 onwards until the end
16 of the war. They always applied the same method because people never fled
17 from areas where there were no terrorists or the army.
18 Q. I mean, this is your account, for which you've got no
19 contemporaneous piece of paper in support; is that right? There's no
20 document that supports this allegation of yours coming from 1998, 1999?
21 A. I don't have any such thing, Mr. Nice. But unlike you, I was down
22 there and I saw it.
23 Q. Let me see if I understand your suggestion. What your suggestion
24 is is this: That the KLA go to a village and drive the people out, and
25 they, what, burn the houses down, and the poor villagers are then left in
1 the woods, and what do they do next to make it look as though it was the
2 army that did it? I've lost that bit. Perhaps you could help me.
3 A. Mr. Nice, you misunderstood completely. What I said was this:
4 When terrorists come to a village, they perform forced mobilisation. They
5 make people buy weapons. They sold rifles at a price of 200 to 300
6 Deutschmark at a time. They set up checkpoints around the village. They
7 order the populace to dig trenches and roads around the village to create
8 an appearance that the village is defending itself although it's not being
9 attacked. Then they attack the army, and when the army responds, they
10 order the population to leave the village, and they thus make it look that
11 the army is driving away the villagers, whereas it is only combat between
12 them and the army. That is the whole essence of the method in Kosovo.
13 Judging by what I saw, and I saw a lot while I was in Kosovo as
14 part of the combat group, they applied the same method throughout Kosovo.
15 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... from the beginning to make it
16 look like a terrible army attack on the innocent villagers, the innocent
17 villagers of course being well aware of exactly what was happening to
18 them. Is that your account?
19 A. I can only repeat, Mr. Nice: The villagers -- the inhabitants of
20 those villages that had not been visited by terrorists never fled. They
21 had no reason to flee from the army nor did they do it.
22 JUDGE ROBINSON: Lieutenant Colonel, the people to whom they are
23 doing this are by and large of their own ethnicity?
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.
25 JUDGE ROBINSON: Is that -- is that strange?
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Those are ethnic Albanians.
2 JUDGE ROBINSON: Isn't that strange?
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, Mr. Robinson, it's not strange.
4 It's not the ideology that prevailed, it's force. They made people do
5 what they wanted by force, not by winning them over to their own ideology.
6 They had no problem killing their own fellow citizens who did not think as
7 they did, who did not share their opinions, because there were those who
8 were loyal to the state of Yugoslavia.
9 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Nice.
10 MR. NICE:
11 Q. Before I turn to the topic of damage that His Honour raised a
12 little earlier and to which we were moving in any event, let me just put
13 my position to you quite clearly. Mr. Odak, you, like all sorts of other
14 company and battalion commanders, were caught up in events in a way that
15 meant either you instructed or allowed the men you commanded to commit
16 crimes, knowing that they would go unpunished because they served the
17 objectives of your political leaders, including this accused. That's what
18 happened, isn't it?
19 A. That is completely untrue, and it's a major insinuation on your
20 part, and I absolutely forbid you to insult my colleagues who fought
21 bravely and courageously for their own country.
22 Q. You are incapable now of explaining the death which led to mass
23 grave in Djakovica, to the destruction and the cleansing of that town in
24 part, because it's actually your responsibility. You know it, and you've
25 got to come to this Court to lie about it. That's the truth, isn't it?
1 A. Mr. Nice, I am enthralled by your gentlemanly conduct but I will
2 not stoop to your level. What you are saying is a blatant lie from
3 beginning to end. I spent all my time in Djakovica performing the tasks I
4 received from my superiors. In the initial period, while I was in the
5 52nd Brigade, those tasks had to do with the supply of units, and I
6 performed my tasks with responsibility. Those who tried to commit any
7 crimes in our brigade were turned over to the authorities, that is the
8 military police, and measures were taken against them.
9 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... me, or tell the Court what's
10 happened to them since.
11 A. Mr. Nice, I was not part of the command of the brigade. I was a
12 battalion commander. Those soldiers were not from my unit. They were
13 from some artillery battalion. I don't know which. We were informed of
14 those cases by our brigade commander.
15 Q. All right. Let's look at --
16 A. It's not our job to deal with that.
17 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... please, which is the report
18 of the expert Mr. Riedlmayer. And first of all, I'll take you, please,
19 through a couple of passages of the written report and then we'll look at
20 the photographs and material that he analysed relating to Djakovica in
21 particular. Can we look at -- I'm afraid this is only in English. It's
22 in the report which is Exhibit 88, and it's at paragraph 2.1. If that can
23 be placed on the overhead projector, I'll read certain passages out and
24 seek your comments.
25 You see, we have had an expert in buildings give evidence, and he
1 explains, amongst other things, that: "A number of important historical
2 and religious monuments and sites in Kosovo were alleged, by Yugoslav
3 authorities and others, to have been destroyed or seriously damaged by
4 NATO airstrikes ..." and he lists that Hadum Mosque complex in Djakovica
5 as one of those where such an allegation was made.
6 And the next paragraph goes on to say the following: "Of the
7 above sites, not one was found to show any sign of damage attributable to
8 an air attack. Some, including the Serbian Orthodox sites and several of
9 the non-Serbian heritage sites ... were found to be completely intact."
10 So here's an expert who's looked at the Hadum Mosque, compared it
11 with the allegations that it was bombed, and said not at all, no sign of
12 bomb attack.
13 Now, do you allow for the fact that the Hadum Mosque may, in the
14 event, not have been bombed, because you weren't there, were you?
15 A. I wasn't there at the Hadum Mosque itself, but I have to say again
16 that part of the town adjacent to Cabrat hill was bombed every day. The
17 streets are very narrow. There is no space between houses. There are
18 many houses near the mosque. I saw that many times when I looked from the
19 hill. It is possible that the Hadum Mosque caught fire from the burning
21 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Nice -- [French on English channel]
22 There's a problem with the interpretation. We'll start again.
23 MR. NICE:
24 Q. The next paragraph, just to deal with the accuracy of this
25 expert's report, says this, second sentence: "St. Anthony's --"
1 JUDGE ROBINSON: It's not on the transcript what I said because of
2 the translation problem. I had said, "Mr. Nice, could you confirm that
3 this expert only looked at cultural sites."
4 MR. NICE: That's indeed what he did.
5 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
6 MR. NICE:
7 Q. We now look at the next paragraph --
8 JUDGE KWON: Why don't you start from the beginning of that
9 paragraph. It has mention of bazaar.
10 MR. NICE:
11 Q. "Others were damaged or destroyed, but the damage had clearly been
12 done from the ground up (the Prizren League Museum, the Hadum Mosque
13 complex, the historic bazaars in Pec and Djakovica) and not from the air.
14 The St. Anthony's Catholic church in Gjakova had not been hit in the
15 airstrikes, but it had been taken over and turned into a military facility
16 by the Yugoslav Army."
17 Taking those points, then, the bazaar area, which we're going to
18 look at on the following page, I think, is said by the expert to have been
19 destroyed from the bottom up by being burnt. Do you allow for that to be
21 A. No. I have no such knowledge.
22 Q. May it be right -- I'm giving you every opportunity, Mr. Odak, not
23 to tie yourself to things of which you don't know. I've asked you about
24 the involvement of the police, paramilitaries. May it be right that the
25 bazaar was burnt by those intending on setting it afire? May that be
2 A. I'm saying again I know nothing about that. I have no such
3 knowledge. I can't say whether it's possible or not.
4 Q. If we turn over the page, please, to paragraph 2.2. We see this
5 paragraph: "Three out of four well-preserved historic urban centres in
6 Kosovo suffered severe devastation during the spring of 1999 - Pec/Peja,
7 Djakovica/Gjakova, and Vucitrn/Vushtrri. Despite allegations by the
8 Yugoslav authorities, it was evident that from the nature of the damage
9 that this destruction was not the result of aerial bombardment, but of
10 fires set on the ground in individual buildings. Statements of
11 eyewitnesses identified Serbian police, Yugoslav army troops,
12 paramilitaries and, in some cases, Serb civilians as perpetrators of these
13 attacks. These attacks appear to have been aimed at the destruction of
14 buildings and cultural and religious monuments associated with Kosovo's
15 Albanian population ..."
16 Is this expert wrong in his analysis? Tell us.
17 A. Mr. Nice, I think we are in a vicious circle. As for these
18 buildings, a lot of buildings were hit by NATO bombs. It is possible that
19 there were individual cases of torching. It is very possible. There was
20 a war going on and such things happen in every war.
21 However, we cannot say that if NATO bombs hit one building that it
22 is impossible that other buildings caught fire from that.
23 I'm telling you, the streets in that part of town are very narrow.
24 There is no space between houses. One building often caught fire from
25 another one that was burning.
1 Q. Let's look at one last passage. It's at page 9 in the bottom
2 right-hand corner, it's at the end of paragraph 2.4. You see this expert
3 has spoken to various people, provides footnotes from time to time to
4 amplify his report, and he says this: "The Catholic church of St. Anthony
5 in Pristina and St. Anthony's Catholic church and the adjacent Franciscan
6 convent in Djakovica were occupied by Yugoslav army troops in the
7 beginning of the NATO air war and were used as military facilities, a
8 violation of the laws of war analogous to misuse of the Red Cross symbol."
9 And then he says this of the Pristina church, which you may not be
10 able to help with -- Did you go to Pristina? Do you know what happened
11 in Pristina?
12 A. No, no, I don't know. I spent all the war in Djakovica.
13 Q. He says this: "In the case of the church in Djakovica, officers
14 and troops from the nearby Yugoslav army base moved into the church, the
15 parish house and the convent," and he quotes, "half an hour before the
16 NATO bombing started," according to the parish priest. "The VJ ...
17 ejected the priests and nuns and used the church buildings as a command
18 centre for the following two months."
19 Now, is he right about that? It was your group that did it. The
20 parish priest told the expert.
21 A. Mr. Nice, I have already told you about it. If I had had any
22 intention to conceal anything, I would have simply kept mum about it. I
23 told you that we asked prior and we got his approval. We went into the
24 monastery with his consent and we returned it in good order. It was
25 damaged by NATO bombs because it was adjacent to the barracks. Because of
1 the wounded, we left the convent very soon after going in because the
2 wounded and the children and everybody else were traumatised by the
3 bombing. Nobody went into the church. The church was a bit further off,
4 50 metres away from the convent, and nobody went in there.
5 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Nice, how did this expert acquire his
7 MR. NICE: He's been looking at buildings around the world for
8 many years. Largely independent, I think, and dedicated to the process of
9 analysing, and I don't think his expertise has been doubted. I can't
10 remember now whether he has -- what his initial degree was, his initial
11 qualifications, but he's been looking at buildings on this basis and on
12 all sides. We'll dig out his CV for you.
13 Can we look at the photographs which he produced, which are part
14 of Exhibit 88 --
15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Robinson, with regard to your
16 question, I wish to make another objection. We heard Mr. Nice saying that
17 Mr. Riedlmayer bases his comments and assertions on witness statements.
18 He is not competent to take witness statements. He is not a judge. He is
19 in no way qualified to take witness statements, and these stories only
20 prove that all of this is a fake.
21 JUDGE ROBINSON: Well, he would be qualified to -- to receive a
22 report from anybody. I mean, there's nothing unusual about that. I don't
23 know whether one would have to characterise it as a witness statement.
24 MR. NICE: Your Honour, can we just --
25 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, proceed.
1 MR. NICE: Just to remind you of Exhibit 88, we'll have a look at
2 the photographs, please. If they can go on the overhead projector.
3 They've been flagged.
4 Q. It's a part of his report, a very careful report, and I'm dealing
5 with -- let me just explain to you, Mr. Odak. Yesterday you were emphatic
6 about how the market was destroyed and how the mosque was destroyed, and I
7 showed you a picture of the mosque yesterday as part of the destroyed
8 buildings that one could see. You didn't actually identify it, but
9 nevertheless you gave that evidence.
10 Now, let's have a look at this photograph, please, which is the
11 first one. It's probably going to help if you just start at K029370. I
12 think that's flagged in the same place. 370.
13 This is the Djakovica bazaar, and if we look at his analysis, he
14 told us this: "Nearly all the shops in the historic market are burnt out,
15 in a wide area covering several city blocks surrounding the Hadum Mosque.
16 "The destruction covers the entirety of the historic bazaar area
17 designated for protection, with the exception of a row of shops along the
18 even-numbered side of Abedin Torbesh Street ... Building interiors burnt
19 out to the roof lines.
20 "Roofs collapsed, dividing walls between shops mostly intact, in
21 many cases with the original roof tiles still lined up along the tops of
22 the walls undisturbed. No signs of the blast damage that would have been
23 expected if the bazaar had really been hit by airstrikes.
24 "Yugoslav authorities have claimed that the damage to the bazaar
25 and the Hadum Mosque were caused by NATO airstrikes.
1 "Rubble was cleared during the summer from most burned-out
2 interiors, but ... there had been no reconstruction ..."
3 And he then says this: There's a photograph of the Djakovica
4 bazaar being burned, which was taken secretly by a local resident, Petrit
5 Domi, on January 4 1999, and he says has additional photographs of bodies
6 of murdered people lying in front of burning shops.
7 So he's giving an account here of the burning out of that bazaar
8 going back to January 1999.
9 JUDGE KWON: 4th of January?
10 MR. NICE: 4th of January, yes.
11 JUDGE KWON: Or 1st of April?
12 MR. NICE: Oh, 1st of April, it may be, actually. I think it's
13 the 1st of April in the American dating system.
14 Q. Is there anything he records factually about roof collapses, tiles
15 on the top, and anything else that goes to show this was a burning that
16 you can challenge?
17 A. Mr. Nice, that's what I said a moment ago. We keep going back to
18 the same topic and keep saying the same things. I'm not claiming that
19 there were no individual crimes. I state that again. But most of the
20 burning was the result of the NATO aggression. Let me mention again that
21 all these buildings and all the houses are next to each other. It's a row
22 of houses, one next to each other. So that when one house is burnt, this
23 causes a large fire spreading in a whole quarter of Djakovica. And the
24 place most targeted by NATO was the Cabrat feature and that part of the
25 settlement bordering on that hill.
1 Q. Next page, please, Mr. Prendergast. One more detail on this and
2 then I'll turn to the mosque and then I must be done for reasons of time.
3 But this is what this expert has recorded about bombing.
4 JUDGE ROBINSON: Generally, do fires result from bombing?
5 MR. NICE: I can't answer that question.
6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Are you in a position to help me with that,
7 Lieutenant Colonel?
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I didn't understand your question.
9 I apologise.
10 JUDGE ROBINSON: Do fires result from bombing?
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, absolutely.
12 MR. NICE:
13 Q. Let's look at what one of his informants told Mr. Riedlmayer,
14 because he's set it out on the following page. An informant was
15 listening to the radio and heard a Serb evening newscast at 8 p.m. on the
16 24th say that the city centres of Belgrade, Novi Sad, Pristina, and
17 Djakovica had been bombed by NATO.
18 The informant explained that he was amazed, since he lived in the
19 centre of town and at that point had heard no planes or explosions in the
21 He explained to Mr. Riedlmayer that the Yugoslav army base on the
22 edge of town was later hit by an airstrike but not the town centre itself.
23 And then he said this: "Then, after midnight, Serb police and civilians
24 came on foot and in cars and set the Hadum Mosque and the surrounding old
25 bazaar area on fire and started killing people."
1 Now, this is the account given of somebody who was triggered to --
2 who was caused to react because what was put out by the radio was, to his
3 knowledge, a lie. May this informant be right and may the bazaar have
4 been set on fire by police, civilians on foot who also killed people? May
5 that be right?
6 A. Mr. Nice, let me tell you for the umpteenth time that I have no
7 knowledge of that. What I do know about is what I told you. So I kindly
8 ask you to ask me different questions. You keep asking me the same
9 questions and then I give you the same answers.
10 Q. I have nearly finished, but you've given evidence that is to be
11 relied on, if accepted, that there was nothing wrong happening at the
12 hands of Serbs, police, military, or others in the town of which you were
13 the senior military officer, and I'm giving you a chance to comment on the
14 evidence to the contrary effect.
15 If Mr. Prendergast would move on a few pages to 9373, we'll see
16 what is said about the mosque.
17 JUDGE ROBINSON: When did Riedlmayer collect this evidence?
18 MR. NICE: 26th of October is the surveyor's report of 1999, and I
19 think we'll find that the survey was about that time, but I'm not
20 absolutely sure.
21 JUDGE ROBINSON: He was acting on behalf of the Office of the
23 MR. NICE: No.
24 JUDGE ROBINSON: No?
25 MR. NICE: I think not. I'll find out. I think he was originally
1 instructed by others. He was an independent consultant to UNMIK in 2001
2 and he came our way via that route. I've got a part of his CV up and I'll
3 remind myself a bit more of the detail before I sit down.
4 Q. But if we could just look at this picture here of the mosque,
5 which is a large wooden extended portico in front of the mosque - that's
6 this picture - burnt down completely, and he says this, Mr. Odak: The
7 lead on the roof of the burnt down portico and on the three small domes
8 covering the arcade of the mosque melted in the fire.
9 The massive wooden door of the mosque was badly charred, with soot
10 marks coming from a semi-circular window above the entrance door. Damage
11 to the 18th century mural paintings and interiors of the dome.
12 The minaret was decapitated. The top portion above the balcony
13 was shot away. Much of the rubble of the fallen minaret appears to have
14 crushed on top of the adjacent library building, leading to the collapse
15 of its rear wall.
16 So that's his description. And if the Court turns to the next
17 page, we get, I think, a better clue as to the dating. Again if you look
18 at the photograph at the top, please, Mr. Prendergast, we see it's photo
19 by Riedlmayer, October 1999, fire scarred base of the minaret with rubble.
20 And then he then gives this account from an informant.
21 On the first night of NATO bombing, March the 24th, Serb radio
22 announced the NATO bombing of Belgrade, Novi Sad, Pristina, and Djakovica.
23 It's the same again for the informant. He was amazed. But then it goes
24 on to say an incendiary device was thrown at the door of the mosque, but
25 only the wooden extension of the portico and the exterior of the door and
1 other woodwork was burned. The interior of the mosque did not catch on
2 fire, even though an incendiary projectile was fired through the opening
3 above doorway. The reason is - and this is the reason for the blockage
4 above the doorway - that a few months earlier, elderly members of the
5 congregation had complained of cold drafts coming into the mosque through
6 the opening and the thick wooden board had been mounted inside to keep the
7 cold air out. That board caught on fire and burned, and he says you can
8 see the soot marks above the door, but it kept the incendiary missile from
9 burning the interior of the mosque.
10 The library and the Quran school next door were burnt at the time.
11 And the mosque minaret was decapitated, according to the
12 informant, later in May of 1999.
13 Now, that's the detailed account obtained in October 1999 by an
14 expert working, I think then for UNMIK, but we'll get the detail of that.
15 Do you have any comment you'd like to make about the detail he gives?
16 A. Mr. Nice, that night I was in the barracks, the barracks which
17 were destroyed completely. It was hit first. And then there was a rain
18 of bombs, a whole torrent of bombs targeting Cabrat. I pulled out the
19 resources, and in the upper part of the houses at Cabrat was already on
20 fire and the fire spread towards the lower part of town. I passed by that
21 way and saw a large number of fire engines trying to put out the fire.
22 That's what I saw. And I consider and claim that that was the result of
23 the NATO bombing.
24 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Odak, do you recollect when the bombing
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, the bombing started somewhere
2 towards evening. I can't remember exactly. I think it might have been
3 between 1900 and 2000 hours.
4 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.
5 MR. NICE:
6 Q. If you're going to blame all the fires on bombs, can you explain
7 why it is that the VJ were complaining about army reservists firing
8 buildings? Why was it necessary for them to go around and burn a few
9 more? Sorry, the MUP complaining about the VJ or about the reservists.
10 A. Mr. Nice, I don't know who this refers to specifically, but if
11 there were any complaints and any complaining done, then in cooperation
12 with the commander of my unit, Colonel General Djosan, they would solve
13 those matters. And let me repeat once again: Possibly there were
14 individual cases of excessive behaviour, however, as far as I know, not in
15 our brigade. And that report, the report given by Mr. Colic, or account
16 by Mr. Colic, doesn't mention anywhere -- at least, he says that it is
17 strictly Djakovica, as far as -- or not Djakovica, I'm sorry, that it was
18 strictly not Djakovica, as far as I was able to gather from the record.
19 Q. I can't take any more time. I repeat the position, it's this:
20 In light of your exclusion of other forces, paramilitary or police, as
21 those to your knowledge responsible for what was happening in Djakovica, I
22 must suggest to you quite clearly, Mr. Odak, that you are substantially
23 responsible, through yourself, through your men, for the crimes, the grave
24 crimes committed in Djakovica, and you, like other military commanders at
25 your level, are going to have to come here and lie because you know that
1 if you don't support each other you'll all be held responsible, not here
2 but elsewhere, for what you did, and that's why you're here to lie to us.
3 Isn't that the truth?
4 A. Mr. Nice, those are just your wishes. What you have just uttered
5 is completely incorrect. We only carried out our military assignments and
6 defended our country. What you are claiming has nothing to do with the
8 MR. NICE: Your Honours, I've got copies of Mr. Riedlmayer's
9 curriculum vitae, if you'd like to have it. It's, of course, available
10 elsewhere, in the original exhibit, I think. The position seems to be
11 that he, with a very long history of scholarship in respect of Balkan
12 matters, Turkish and other, co-founded in 1999 the cultural -- the Kosovo
13 Cultural Heritage Project, and that led to his, as I recall, mission to
14 the area and his examination of the various sites that he logged, and then
15 he became a consultant to UNMIK.
16 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you, Mr. Nice.
17 Mr. Milosevic, any re-examination?
18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I'll do my best, Mr. Robinson.
19 Re-examined by Mr. Milosevic:
20 Q. [Interpretation] You were asked at the beginning whether you had
21 seen a killed terrorist. You remember that? You remember being asked
22 that question?
23 A. They asked me about 1999.
24 Q. Yes. Did you see any terrorist killed, a killed terrorist, and
25 you didn't have a chance to reply. How is it possible that you did not
1 see a single one? Does that mean the conclusion drawn by Mr. Nice, that
2 the terrorists were not killed?
3 A. No, no. Wherever we had a clash and conflict with the terrorists,
4 we found a lot of traces of blood. However, just like anybody else, they
5 pulled out their wounded and dead.
6 Q. Very well. Now, with regard to the several hundred ID cards that
7 you found in the village of Nec, did any Albanian complain that their ID
8 identity cards were taken away, confiscated?
9 A. No.
10 Q. And you found the identity cards yourself, did you?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Your battalion was the only unit in Djakovica; is that right?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. And yours was a logistics battalion. Is that true?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. And is it true that your battalion was not a combat unit?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. So if in a town we have a non-combat unit, is it the assumption
19 that there is supposed to be some fighting there or combat action?
20 A. Certainly not.
21 Q. Mr. Nice said or, rather, he mentioned large guns, cannons, 20, 30
22 and 40 millimetres, which are so large that they can target aircraft.
23 Now, on the ground troops and land artillery are there cannons and guns of
24 that calibre?
25 A. No, there are no cannons of that calibre. They are anti-aircraft
2 Q. All right, fine. And are they all much bigger than 20, 30, 40
4 A. Yes. If we look at mortars, they start with 60 millimetres
6 Q. Right, 60 millimetres upwards. Now, tell us whether the
7 anti-aircraft weapons calibres are in fact the smallest type of calibre
8 for artillery weapons.
9 A. Yes, yes.
10 Q. Mr. Nice also asked you another question with regard to the
11 commission and what the commission did, what its work was, because you
12 provided the commission with statements. Otherwise, he showed us a
13 document here belonging to the General Staff of the army of Yugoslavia.
14 During his cross-examination of General Geza Farkas, we were shown that
15 document. It is a document of the General Staff of the army of Yugoslavia
16 which related to the expert team, and it was marked as tab 10 in the
17 binder that Mr. Nice presented.
18 Now, may we have this placed on the overhead projector? I would
19 like you to read what it says here. It's the document that was presented
20 by Mr. Nice, a General Staff document. I hope we can see it even if you
21 don't separate the pages, Mr. Usher.
22 What does it say there? Do you have the portion underlined at the
23 top? "Monitoring and analysing documents." What does it say, tasks of
24 the expert team, is that what it says?
25 A. Yes, tasks of the expert team.
1 Q. So this says what the task was, and what does it say? Read it out
2 for us, please.
3 A. "Monitoring and analysing documents and data from the indictments
4 of the Prosecutor of The Hague Tribunal against professional members of
5 the army of Yugoslavia, or VJ members, and retired officers."
6 Q. Thank you, Lieutenant Colonel.
7 JUDGE KWON: Just a second. I'd like to make it sure with
8 Mr. Nice whether this is not a part of those parts for which provisionally
9 protective measures was allowed.
10 MR. NICE: I don't think so. There were only the two passages,
11 and --
12 JUDGE KWON: You showed this passage to this witness, didn't you?
13 MR. NICE: I think so. I don't think this was subject to
14 protective measures. No, definitely not. Ms. Dicklich says definitely
15 not, so that can be relied on.
16 JUDGE KWON: What is the tab number? Tab 10 of Exhibit 921? And
17 the protective measures were not allowed. Yes. Thank you. Let us
19 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
20 Q. Lieutenant Colonel, among the tasks -- well, you read out what the
21 tasks were. Is there mention of my name anywhere there perhaps?
22 A. No, Mr. Milosevic.
23 Q. Well, I'm just asking you to take a good look, because Mr. Nice
24 asked many witnesses here and claimed that the expert team was in fact
25 established to assist me. And what does it say there, please? Monitoring
1 and what? What else?
2 A. "Monitoring, analysing documents and data from the indictments of
3 the Prosecutor of The Hague Tribunal against professional VJ members and
4 retired officers."
5 Q. I see. Professional VJ members and retired officers. That's what
6 it says, does it?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Thank you, Lieutenant Colonel. Let's move on. We can return the
9 document now.
10 Now, you saw images of destroyed houses. You were shown that
11 yesterday, bombed houses or destroyed houses in Djakovica. And if I
12 remember correctly, Mr. Nice said that these were taken in August 1999.
13 Can you perhaps tell me, what you think about this? How come
14 nobody took those photographs before August 1999?
15 A. Well, I assume that they weren't necessary and that -- that they
16 were perhaps taken later on and not at that particular time perhaps.
17 That's not when they came into being.
18 Q. Lieutenant Colonel, you said that in Djakovica at the end of the
19 war there were twice as many inhabitants as there were at the beginning,
20 that is to say that Djakovica was chock-a-block full of inhabitants. Is
21 that what you said?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Now, Mr. Nice asked you who perpetrated the killing and cleansing
24 of Djakovica and expulsion of the population. So I'm asking you now,
25 those inhabitants who were there, and there were twice as many of them at
1 the end of the war, were they live? Were they live inhabitants or were
2 they killed and cleansed?
3 A. Well, I said that there were so many people, such a lot of
4 population all over Djakovica --
5 Q. How many? Twice as many? Double the number?
6 A. I assume so, yes.
7 Q. Or perhaps 50 per cent more?
8 A. Yes, let's say 50 per cent more.
9 Q. All right. Thank you. So that, as he said, they were cleansed
10 and killed but their number increased during the war, during all that
11 killing and cleansing, which is of course quite logical, is it not?
12 Lieutenant Colonel, this alleged informant of Riedlmayer's said
13 that on the first day it was just the barracks that were bombed and that
14 that was at the outskirts of town, as he said. Now, on that first day of
15 the war - you were there - was it only the barracks that were bombed or
16 was anything else bombed?
17 A. I've already said that on the first day of the bombing the
18 barracks were bombed and another facility, the Cabrat facility and
19 feature, which was where the firing positions of the artillery battalion
20 were located. And that is on the outskirts of Djakovica towards Cabrat.
21 That's where there's a settlement.
22 Q. All right. Now, did a bomb drop on the settlement or did all the
23 bombs fall on Cabrat?
24 A. Well, I assume they fell on the settlement as well because part of
25 the settlement is on the slopes of Cabrat hill, in fact.
1 Q. So when you say Cabrat was bombed, you mean their intention to
2 target a military facility and not the fact of where the bombs fell?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. But where did the bombs fall on the first day of the war?
5 A. I've already said that the barracks were hit two or three times,
6 and then afterwards, the bombs fell on places where the artillery
7 battalion used to be before. As they moved positions, their positions on
8 the hill frequently, they would be closer to the houses or further away
9 from the houses so that the bombs were falling on all sides. And I said
10 that Cabrat was bombed massively that night. And of course a part of the
11 settlement was hit as well, the part of the settlement that is located on
12 the slopes of Cabrat hill.
13 Q. On that first day, Djakovica was bombed, that first day of the
14 war, that first evening of the war; is that right?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Now, to the best of your recollections, and I'm not asking you to
17 give us precise data because you said you couldn't pinpoint it, General
18 Djosan spoke about that, but how frequently was Djakovica bombed
19 throughout the war?
20 A. Every day.
21 Q. So Djakovica was bombed daily?
22 A. Yes, daily.
23 Q. Now I'm going to ask you the same thing that Mr. Nice asked you:
24 Do you allow for the possibility that in that daily bombing of Djakovica,
25 from the first to the last day, those bombs did not destroy houses, did
1 not cause fires, and did not inflict destruction? Do you allow for that
3 A. I do not allow for it, no.
4 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] And, gentlemen, I say that General
5 Djosan gave us the precise facts and figures about the bombing of
6 Djakovica, the intensive bombing of Djakovica throughout the course of the
8 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Odak, what's the distance between the Djakovica
9 barracks and the marketplace? How far were the barracks located from the
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As the crow flies, in a straight
12 line, or if you take the road, sir?
13 JUDGE KWON: Whatever. As the crow flies, how far would it be?
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think somewhere about one
16 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
17 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
18 Q. And at what distance is the Cabrat settlement that was hit?
19 A. Well, the settlement starts on the slopes of Mount Cabrat, or
20 Cabrat hill, and ends about 50 metres away from the bazaar.
21 Q. So that settlement that was hit on that first day is some 50
22 metres away from the bazaar; is that right?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Thank you, Lieutenant Colonel.
25 JUDGE ROBINSON: Sorry. Mr. Nice, do you concede that Djakovica
1 was bombed at some time?
2 MR. NICE: I don't think there's any doubt that its military
3 targets may have been bombed. We don't necessarily have the precise
4 dates. It's clear from Djosan, I think, that even on his allegation, it
5 wasn't every day or anything like it. You may remember we went through
6 his diary to see the number of days when he said there was no bombing. I
7 don't think it's challenged that there was some bombing, but I'll see if I
8 can find out more detail. It's not actually that easy to find historic
9 record of the precise days of bombing for such things. Evidence would
10 seem to suggest some days but not every day.
11 JUDGE KWON: I wonder whether the witness is able to position the
12 location of barracks or marketplaces or bazaars in this map. This is
13 Prosecution Exhibit 83. Could we put it on the ELMO, page 24. It's a
14 city map of Djakovica.
15 Can we see those places in this map? Where is the marketplace,
16 first of all? Do you recognise the map? Could we zoom out a bit. Zoom
17 out. A bit further.
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Roughly speaking, that would be the
19 barracks, although this map is not quite clear to me, but roughly
20 speaking, this is where the barracks should be.
21 JUDGE KWON: And the bazaar?
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If this is Hadum Mosque, then this
23 is the Cabrat feature. So it's this part of the settlement. And the
24 bazaar is -- should be here somewhere. I can't pinpoint it. I can't get
25 my bearings on this map, but thereabouts.
1 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
2 MR. NICE: I'll see if we can lay hold of a better map. If not
3 from the existing exhibits, it may be possible to get one from another
4 source, but the maps are curiously difficult to find.
5 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
6 Q. Colonel, please. To your right there is a map of Kosovo with the
7 localities where there was activity. Could you show the area of Djakovica
8 on that map very precisely, please.
9 A. [Indicates]
10 Q. So that's the area of Djakovica. We see that there were many
11 attacks there, lots of bombings. How many attacks were there on
13 A. 236.
14 Q. That's what it says in the table, on the left-hand side?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Djakovica, 236 attacks. So in attacks, a large number of
17 projectiles are always used. So that number could be multiplied by a
18 certain number of projectiles; is that right?
19 A. This is probably just the total number of attacks.
20 Q. Yes, yes. These are just the locations where there were attacks.
21 It's the number of attacks. What does it say there? Does it say number
22 of attacks or what?
23 A. Number of attacks.
24 Q. All right. Number of attacks. And how many were there near --
25 around Djakovica?
1 A. 236, but --
2 Q. 236 during the 78 days of the war?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. You described that first day, that first day. Since you went
5 there, you pulled people out, you pulled things out, and so on and so
6 forth, and you saw the fire-fighting units trying to extinguish the fire
7 that was a consequence of the bombing; is that right?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. So what does this look like to you now, what Mr. Nice is
10 asserting? He claims that our police engaged in arson and that then our
11 fire-fighting units, which also belonged to the police, as you know, were
12 trying to put out the fire. So that would mean that certain policemen
13 were setting the place on fire and others were trying to extinguish the
14 fire. What does that sound like to you? Does that saw plausible to you?
15 A. That is implausible and it is malicious. It is a well-known thing
16 that fire-fighting units belong to the Ministry of the Interior.
17 Q. All right. Could you please explain this now, what Riedlmayer
18 wrote in relation to this church and monastery, because you explained that
19 you put the wounded there. To the best of your knowledge, since you are a
20 trained officer of the army of Yugoslavia, the protection of the wounded,
21 is that one of the key preoccupations of international humanitarian law?
22 A. Yes, certainly, by all means.
23 Q. All right. Let's leave that aside now. So protection of the
24 wounded is one of the main preoccupations of international humanitarian
25 law. And protecting the sick and frail and wounded is also one of the key
1 principles of the Christian faith.
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. So let me put a question: What is so strange about putting up
4 wounded in a church or a monastery? Is this a violation of international
5 humanitarian law or anything?
6 A. I don't think it's any kind of violation. First of all, we did
7 not put up the wounded there without the consent of the local priest, not
8 to mention how important this building was for us as a temporary hospital
9 or infirmary until we found a better location, because there were some
10 people who were very seriously wounded.
11 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic, how much longer will you be? I'm
12 trying so see whether we'll be finished before taking the break. If not,
13 then we'll take the break now and return.
14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I really have to have a look at my
15 notes, to tell you the truth. Perhaps I don't really need very much time.
16 JUDGE ROBINSON: We're going to take the break. We will adjourn
17 for 20 minutes.
18 --- Recess taken at 10.36 a.m.
19 --- On resuming at 10.59 a.m.
20 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Nice.
21 MR. NICE: There is a better map of Djakovica already in evidence.
22 It's 143, tab 1. I've got hard copies -- I've got paper copies for you.
23 In paper copy form it's not particularly satisfactory, although it's
24 probably better than the one from the atlas. It's available on Sanction
25 and on Sanction it retains its original clarity of marking and
1 Ms. Dicklich may be able to zoom in on parts of it if anybody wants to ask
2 more detailed questions.
3 It was a map that was produced by the witness Niki Peraj. I think
4 his handwritten notations, numbers 1, 2, 3 may be forward command posts,
5 but Mr. Coo, who was good enough to locate this map and have it
6 reproduced, is checking the transcripts in case it's material, to see what
7 the code 1, 2 and 3 means and to remind us of that. But Ms. Dicklich
8 will enlarge parts of this, if anybody wants her to, on Sanction and thus
9 on the screen.
10 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you, Mr. Nice.
11 Mr. Milosevic.
12 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
13 Q. Lieutenant Colonel, when using the monastery, did you do it any
15 A. Absolutely not. I've already said one of the reasons why we left
16 the monastery even quicker was -- well, as I've already said to you, the
17 barracks is right next door. There is just a wall in between. So there
18 was a lot of external damage coming from the debris from the barracks
19 after the bombing. So the external part facing the barracks was damaged.
20 So that is absolutely untrue that we damaged something, let alone
21 destroyed something.
22 Q. All right. Was any form of violence displayed? I mean I'm not
23 referring even to beatings or whatever. Mr. Nice or Mr. Riedlmayer
24 mentioned the nuns or persons who lived in the monastery.
25 A. I've already said, Mr. Milosevic, that all the nuns went to
1 monastery that was right next to the church, and I already said that the
2 church was apart. So we didn't have any contact with the nuns. We were
3 staying at the newer monastery. They took all the things they could take
4 out of the monastery and they handed it over the building to us, empty,
5 and we used the building as such and emptied it later. And we even
6 checked it with the nuns to see whether everything was all right, and they
7 had no objections to us or our behaviour.
8 Q. All right. Riedlmayer is claiming the opposite. And you were
9 there and --
10 A. And I carried this through. And I was in contact with the priest
11 all the time to see whether there were any problems, and he never
12 complained about anything.
13 Q. All right. Your task as commander of the logistics battalion was
14 to take care of the wounded, to provide medical care, et cetera.
15 A. Yes, yes. That's a medical platoon, and we actually set up a
16 hospital there.
17 Q. All right. Just a few very specific questions. Mr. Nice referred
18 to the paramilitaries in Djakovica. Did you see any formation or, rather,
19 I don't want to say formation. Did you see any paramilitary group in
21 A. Absolutely not. There weren't any paramilitary formations there
22 at all.
23 Q. Was a para-police formation there of any kind?
24 A. No, no, certainly not. At least, not that I know of, but then, I
25 was there and I did not see them. And since I was there and I did not see
1 them, it's certain they were not there.
2 Q. And he also mentioned another category; reservists. What does
3 that mean, reservists? Were they integrated into the military units or
4 was there a special group of reservists?
5 A. No. Reservists are persons who had been mobilised and they became
6 part of the established units. Now, let me explain this. A company can
7 have about 120 men in peacetime and about 150 during wartime, and they
8 would, for example, be added to a company.
9 Q. All right. When they would be added to a company, did they differ
10 from other soldiers in any way?
11 A. No, they didn't. They wouldn't.
12 Q. Thank you, Lieutenant Colonel. I have no further questions.
13 MR. KAY: Perhaps I could deal with the issue of the map that's
14 been produced as Exhibit 143, tab 1, and ask the witness to mark on one of
15 the copies Mr. Nice has produced the various locations, if that would be
16 helpful to the Trial Chamber.
17 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
18 MR. KAY: Thank you. Perhaps a copy of Exhibit 143, tab 1, could
19 be given to the witness.
20 Questioned by Mr. Kay:
21 Q. Lieutenant Colonel Odak, just take a little while to familiarise
22 yourself with this additional map of Djakovica. Are you able to mark on
23 here, first of all, where your barracks were?
24 A. It's this part, if you can see it.
25 Q. Would you put a big A there in a circle.
1 A. [Marks].
2 Q. We know that means barracks. Could you point out now where the
3 bazaar was.
4 A. [Indicates].
5 Q. Put a big circle with a B there.
6 A. [Marks].
7 Q. And Cabrat hill. The general location of that. If you could do
8 a line down the map, perhaps, that might be a better way of showing it.
9 A. No, it's impossible. This is the length of it. This is where the
10 hill of Cabrat is. I can mark, say, the boundary between Cabrat and town.
11 Q. Perfect. If you'd do that. Do a line along the map, showing the
12 outer reaches of Cabrat. And you told us that that was 50 metres from the
14 A. [Marks]. No. No. What I said was that the outskirts of that
15 neighbourhood that gravitates towards Cabrat is about 50 metres away. The
16 outskirts of the neighbourhood that already belongs to town. It's this
17 area here, this street here. I don't know exactly what the name of the
18 street is, but we called it the Catholic street. It was right here.
19 Q. Now, on the left of your line you've done there, if you could just
20 shade it in so that we can see it better when we come back to this. So if
21 you could just some hatching to the left the line. No, on the other side.
22 That's it.
23 A. [Marks].
24 Q. And we can see that. Thank you.
25 And then the mosque. Are you able to identify where that would be
1 on the map, and put a circle with a D.
2 A. I think it is around here.
3 Q. I think they've given you a pen there which has sort of run out of
4 felt tip, but I've got a better one here. Thank you.
5 A. [Marks].
6 Q. That's better. Yes. Perhaps go around the A and B again so that
7 we can pick that up.
8 A. [Marks].
9 Q. Yes, that's better. Thank you.
10 JUDGE KWON: Mosque being the Bada [sic] Mosque.
11 MR. KAY: The Hadum Mosque.
12 JUDGE KWON: Hadum. So St. Anthony church is around A?
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think it's been marked. There is
14 a wall here. Yes. Yes. Somebody drew the area where the barracks were
15 exactly. This is the area where the monastery was, and the church is this
16 here, and that's where the old monastery was. And this is the new
17 monastery. This is the one that was right next door to the barracks. We
18 were here. We did not go up there at all.
19 JUDGE KWON: Could you put an E on the St. Anthony church -- the
21 A. [Marks].
22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] No, no. You didn't hear the
23 question. The monastery.
24 JUDGE KWON: I'm confused.
25 MR. KAY:
1 Q. Can you mark -- does the E represent the church or the monastery?
2 A. E is the monastery. And we will -- C.
3 Q. Is the church.
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Thank you.
6 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
7 MR. KAY: Thank you.
8 JUDGE ROBINSON: Let me just deal with Lieutenant General Odak's
9 statements which were marked for identification during General Djosan's
10 evidence. That's from D321.
11 Tab 8 was not used and therefore will not be admitted.
12 Tab 11, not translated and will remain marked for identification
13 pending translation.
14 Tab 30, divided into a longer portion which we will admit. The
15 shorter one is not translated and will remain marked for identification
16 pending translation.
17 And then this map, in which the witness has marked certain places
18 and buildings, will be admitted.
19 THE REGISTRAR: That will be D328 for the marked map.
20 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Robinson.
21 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I think it would be useful if the
23 witness would mark Cabrat with a pencil. If he would shade the area where
24 he said the slopes of Cabrat were so that we would have a complete --
25 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Those would be the boundaries. Is
2 that all right?
3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, you'd know whether it's all
4 right. I just wanted --
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I meant was it enough?
6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, it's visible, we can see it.
7 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
8 MR. NICE: Your Honour, for what it's worth, the Sanction
9 enlargement, the last section of the map of which the witness was
10 concentrating in answer to questions from Mr. Kay would appear to show a
11 church sign, either in the position of E or C, but if you want to convert
12 to Sanction you can see the details. It's available on the original map.
13 If that's of any interest to you. That would appear to show the same
14 area, with a church just opposite from what the witness said is the
15 barracks, but there it is. We haven't been able to find, at the moment,
16 on the enlargements of the central part of town, references to the church
17 or to the -- I beg your pardon, to the mosque or to the bazaar, but that
18 may be lack of familiarity with the legend.
19 While I'm on my feet, can I just make one short point in answer to
20 an earlier question of the Court. Mr. Fischman has looked up the position
21 of Mr. Riedlmayer, and our collective memory was roughly right, I think.
22 He checked with UNESCO whether there was going to be any survey done of
23 cultural damage in Kosovo. Finding that there wasn't, he put out an
24 internet search for assistance and funding, was joined by an architect
25 whose name indeed we've seen, and then got funding following an approach
1 to Harvard Centre for Middle Eastern Studies and Packard Humanities
2 Institute. So his work was independent and independently funded.
3 JUDGE KWON: It's in the transcript.
4 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you. Lieutenant Colonel, that concludes
5 your evidence. Thank you for attending at the Tribunal to give it, and
6 you may now leave.
7 [The witness withdrew]
8 JUDGE ROBINSON: Your next witness, Mr. Milosevic.
9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Robinson, I cannot call the next
10 witness. I don't feel well, and I can't go on sitting here, and I want to
11 say that I am opposed to any kind of hearing in my absence.
12 JUDGE ROBINSON: What is the nature of your illness?
13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I think that this doctor who sent
14 you a report has very good information about what it is, and you have got
15 these reports. Everybody here knows, by the way, that I've been coming
16 here for weeks now with great difficulty, but that is my own affair.
17 JUDGE ROBINSON: [Previous translation continues] ...
18 Mr. Milosevic, is to let the Court know how you are feeling. We do have a
19 medical report.
20 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, right now, Mr. Robinson, this
21 is the way I feel: I have this enormous pressure in my eyes, ears. I
22 feel as if my head weighed half a tonne. I am bothered by any kind of
23 sound. Well, not any kind of sound, but any more intensive sound. I have
24 a headache which is not that bad, but this pressure in my head is
25 unbearable, and in my ears too.
1 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you for the information.
2 [Trial Chamber confers]
3 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic, arrangements are being made to
4 have you medically examined at the Tribunal, and while those arrangements
5 are being made, we'll adjourn.
6 --- Recess taken at 11.21 a.m.
7 --- On resuming at 12.29 p.m.
8 JUDGE ROBINSON: The Chamber has had the benefit of a report from
9 the Tribunal doctor, Dr. Gerts, and as a result of that, the Chamber
10 considers it inappropriate to continue sitting today, and we will not sit
11 tomorrow. In the circumstances, then, we'll adjourn until Monday of next
13 We are adjourned.
14 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 12.31 p.m.,
15 to be reconvened on Monday, the 21st day
16 of November, 2005, at 9.00 a.m.