1 Wednesday, 1 May 2002
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.01 a.m.
5 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Good morning everybody this 1st of May, 2002.
6 Please call the case.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning. This is Case Number IT-97-24-T, the
8 Prosecutor versus Milomir Stakic.
9 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: And the appearances, please.
10 MR. KOUMJIAN: Nicholas Koumjian, Ann Sutherland, with Ruth Karper
11 for the Prosecution.
12 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Thank you.
13 MR. LUKIC: Good morning, Your Honours. Branko Lukic and Mr. John
14 Ostojic for the Defence.
15 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Thank you. I believe Witness C has waited long
16 enough, and we should start immediately, if possible, with him.
17 MR. KOUMJIAN: I do have one short matter. I don't know if it's
18 possible to cover this morning. Your Honour, I was asked by the Office of
19 the Prosecutor to ask Your Honours for a Rule 73 --
20 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: We have -- we have numerous administrative
21 matters. Please just turn to Witness C.
22 May he be brought in.
23 [The witness entered court]
24 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Good morning, Witness C. You can understand
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
2 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Examination-in-chief may go on.
3 MS. SUTHERLAND: Thank you, Your Honour.
4 WITNESS: WITNESS C [Resumed]
5 [The witness answered through interpretation]
6 Examined by Ms. Sutherland: [Continued]
7 Q. Sir, on Friday, you testified about events that happened on the
8 11th of June. I just wish to go back and ask you a couple of questions to
9 clear the matter up.
10 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, can we just go into private session
11 to ask the witness a couple of questions in relation to his relatives.
12 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: His relatives. Objections?
13 MR. LUKIC: No.
14 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: No objections. Then, please, private session.
15 [Private session].
7 [Open session]
8 MS. SUTHERLAND:
9 Q. In relation to the incident that happened in the garage on that
10 day, you said this was committed by four Serb police officers who broke
11 into the garage. Were you told the names of these perpetrators?
12 A. Only two names.
13 MS. SUTHERLAND: I'm sorry, I didn't receive a translation.
14 A. Only two names.
15 THE INTERPRETER: I'm afraid we're not hearing very well. We're
16 having problems.
17 MS. SUTHERLAND:
18 Q. Witness, would you be able to speak up, please.
19 Who were the names of the people you were told committed these
21 A. [No Interpretation]
22 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: I think we have a serious interpretation, or
23 connection problems, at least. Could it be resolved immediately?
24 So let's try again.
25 MS. SUTHERLAND:
1 Q. Sir, could you repeat your answer, your last answer --
2 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: You don't have your microphone.
3 MS. SUTHERLAND: I'm sorry.
4 Q. Sir, could you repeat your last answer. We didn't receive the
6 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter apologises, but we're not
7 hearing anything.
8 MS. SUTHERLAND: Excuse me, sir. The interpreters -- I heard that
9 they weren't hearing the witness at all.
10 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: So let's have a break of five minutes to try to
11 find out what's the problem. Five minutes.
12 --- Break taken at 9.08 a.m.
13 --- Upon resuming at 9.40 a.m.
14 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Now, let's try again, please.
15 MS. SUTHERLAND:
16 Q. Witness, before we had the technical problem, you said that the
17 incident in the garage had been committed by four Serb police officers and
18 that you were given the names of two of them. Can you please tell the
19 Court those two people's names, please.
20 A. Yes, I can. They were two out of the four perpetrators and their
21 names are known. They are Jovo Masledjija and Mladjo Jurusic.
22 Q. You mentioned Mladjo Jurusic in relation to another incident that
23 happened on the 1st of July. Did you know the other perpetrator, Jovo?
24 A. I did know him.
25 Q. How did you know him?
1 A. He worked in the elementary school in Hambarine. He was a teacher
3 Q. Who told you the names of these two perpetrators?
4 A. My sister-in-law told me.
5 Q. Can you just explain to the Court, without mentioning the names of
6 your family, what your mother told you when you met up with her later that
7 day about what had happened in the garage.
8 A. My mother told me that my brother had been killed and that my wife
9 had been wounded by the same perpetrators and that she remained lying next
10 to the road somewhere.
11 Q. Did she tell you how these people came into the garage and what
13 A. Those people came to the garage with a car and as they were
14 driving up to the garage, from a distance shooting could be heard,
15 shouting and yelling by them. After that they arrived at the garage and
16 they did what they did.
17 Q. Do you know how your brother was killed?
18 A. My mother was killed -- my brother was killed with a bullet shot
19 from a pistol in the forehead. After that first shot, he fell on the
20 concrete and after that, a burst of fire was opened at his chest from an
21 automatic rifle.
22 Q. Did anything else happen to the garage?
23 A. After the murder of my brother, they demanded money, jewellery.
24 They searched the whole garage looking for these things. They yelled at
25 the other people who were there in the garage. They threatened them.
1 They threatened to kill them. In brief, they mistreated them.
2 Q. Was the garage set on fire?
3 A. After they left, those who survived, the garage was set on fire
4 and my brother was in that garage, dead.
5 Q. You said, "After they left, those who survived, the garage was set
6 on fire." Who set the garage on fire?
7 A. Out of the four of them, it is not known who exactly, but anyway
8 it was them. Whether all four of them or just one of them, no one knows
9 but anyway, this group of four persons did that.
10 Q. Was your family able to remove your brother's body from the
12 A. My family managed to pull out the body, but not straight away.
13 Only after some time, once they are withdrawn in the direction of the
15 Q. Sir, I want to ask you a couple of questions about the other
16 incident that you mentioned on Friday in Carakovo at Aziz Behlic's house.
17 Do you recall that?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. You said on that day, a car came to Carakovo, and then you
20 mentioned that three people had been killed and two were wounded.
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. You said that you were about 250 to 300 metres away.
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Did you have a clear view of these people that arrived in the car?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Did they get out of their car?
2 A. Yes, they came out of the car.
3 Q. Before we move back to where we left off on Friday, I want to ask
4 you a couple of questions about events that happened prior to the
5 takeover. Did you see any helicopters landing in your area prior to that
7 A. I did.
8 Q. When was this?
9 A. This was before the 30th of April. Even in 1991.
10 Q. What part of 1991? Can you be more specific?
11 A. Especially after August and September, so the last quarter of that
12 year, from August onwards, September, October.
13 Q. Where did you see these helicopters land?
14 A. The helicopters landed in the area of Topic Brdo, Gacani, next to
16 Q. How far away are these villages from Hambarine?
17 A. Those villages are about 4 or 5 kilometres away, as the crow
19 Q. Are they on the same level as Hambarine?
20 A. In my judgment, there may be a difference in level, but I'm not
21 sure. I think they are somewhat higher, especially Topic Brdo and
23 Q. The villages that you have just mentioned, what ethnicity were the
24 persons living in those villages in 1992? And 1991? I'm sorry.
25 A. Those villages were inhabited by Serbs. Only at Miljakovci, the
1 population was mixed. There were Bosniaks there as well.
2 Q. How many times did you see the helicopters land?
3 A. During the day, one could see them land three or four times a
5 Q. What sort of helicopters were they?
6 A. They were military helicopters, dark green in colour, or olive
7 green, with a five-cornered star, which was quite visible as they flew
8 over Hambarine.
9 MS. SUTHERLAND: If the witness could be shown Prosecution
10 Exhibit S14, the map, please.
11 Q. Sir, if I can ask you to point out the villages that you mentioned
12 earlier where you saw -- first of all, can you point to Hambarine again on
13 the map. And then point to the villages that you've just mentioned where
14 you saw helicopters landing.
15 A. This is where Hambarine is.
16 Q. I'm sorry. If you can now point to the villages that -- where you
17 saw helicopters landing.
18 MS. SUTHERLAND: If the audiovisual director can zoom out so that
19 the witness can place his finger on Hambarine.
20 A. This is Hambarine.
21 Q. Sir, can you please place your finger on Hambarine, and then point
22 with the pointer to the other villages where you saw helicopters landing,
24 A. [Indicates].
25 Q. Can you point to Gacani?
1 A. Gacani is here.
2 Q. And excuse my pronunciation; Miljakovci?
3 A. Miljakovci is here.
4 Q. Where else did you observe helicopters landing?
5 A. Topic Brdo or Topic Hill.
6 Q. Can you please point to where that is on the map.
7 A. It's here. This hill is probably above the village of Topic at a
8 higher altitude.
9 Q. Was there anywhere else where you saw helicopters landing? You've
10 mentioned Topic Brdo, Miljakovci, Gacani?
11 A. And Pejici. Pejici is here.
12 Q. Thank you, sir.
13 MS. SUTHERLAND: If that exhibit could be returned to the
15 Q. Sir, what, if anything, did you observe with these helicopters?
16 A. Those helicopters were flying at a very low altitude, and they
17 came from the direction of the west, or rather the southwest. And they
18 even flew over a wood called Kurevo that I mentioned earlier. And they
19 flew at a low height, and they headed towards those locations. But I
20 cannot say exactly -- I cannot say exactly where they landed. Anyway,
21 when one watched them and monitored them, one could see them landing in
22 that area that I have just mentioned.
23 MS. SUTHERLAND: Excuse me just for a moment, Your Honour.
24 [Prosecution counsel confer]
25 MS. SUTHERLAND:
1 Q. Witness, do you know why the helicopters were landing in these
3 A. Those helicopters were bringing -- or rather, they were arming the
4 Serb population in that area.
5 Q. How do you know this?
6 A. This was the story that was going around, and it was common
8 Q. Sir, I now want to return to where we left off on Friday. And you
9 had told the Court that you had been interrogated.
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. You said that you were detained in the white house for
12 approximately 12 to 15 days.
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. What happened on that first night in the white house? Were you
15 called out?
16 A. I was called out the first night and taken to a separate room.
17 Q. What happened in this room?
18 A. In this room, once I had been called out by four or five Chetniks,
19 I was beaten up. I was beaten up by them until I lost consciousness.
20 Q. Were any other people that were in the room you were detained,
21 were they called out [sic]?
22 A. That night, they kept calling people out one by one and beating
23 them up in the same room what I was beaten.
24 Q. How were you beaten?
25 A. Could you please repeat your question. I didn't hear you.
1 Q. How were you beaten?
2 A. The Chetniks started beating me as soon as I entered the room.
3 First, they kicked me, and they were wearing heavy military boots. Then
4 they used rifle butts, police clubs. And when I fell down on the floor,
5 they beat me again. One of them tied a piece of wire around my neck. I
6 lay down on my stomach, and the one who held this wire tight around my
7 neck was actually standing on my hands. His feet were on my hands.
8 Others went on beating me on my back -- actually, all over my body, from
9 head to toe, with baseball bats, police batons, with pieces of electric
10 cable, chains, rifles, everything they had with them. I fainted at one
11 point. I don't know how long I remained unconscious. But when I came to,
12 I was still lying on the same spot. I couldn't believe that I was still
14 A. In order to believe that I was still alive, I wanted to do
15 something. I tried to do something. I moved my arm, actually I tried to
16 touch my face with a hand in order to make sure that I was still alive.
17 It seemed impossible. I could hardly believe, myself, that I was still
18 alive. After I done this with my hand, they noticed this and they started
19 cursing me and they set about beating me again with the same objects they
20 had used before.
21 Q. Sir, how many men were beating you?
22 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: I beg your pardon, in principle, I want the
23 witness to testify in context and if the witness wants to go on, I don't
24 like to interrupt him.
25 Witness, do you have anything to add? You were just telling your
1 story. So please proceed.
2 A. Thank you.
3 As I have already indicated, they started beating me again, once
4 they noticed that I had moved. They cursed me, they verbally abused me
5 and they said: "Well, he is still alive." After that, there was a series
6 of blows, once again, all over my body and again, I lost consciousness.
7 After that, I was pulled out to another room, but I don't know how it
8 happened. I don't know how I ended up in this other room. I think it was
9 the other detainees who pulled me out of this room. Two of them were
10 called out and told to throw me out of this first room and put me in the
11 second room so that they could call out another person, another detainee,
12 and do the same to him as what they had done to me. As I told you, we
13 were being called out one by one, to the small room, and beaten up for as
14 long as they pleased, as long they wanted to beat us.
15 After that, two persons took me, as I have said, to another room,
16 where I regained consciousness, but I was still half-conscious. They had
17 actually dragged me from the first room to the second room. I couldn't
18 get up. My condition was severe and I remained for five days like that.
19 I could not get up. I could not even sit, let alone stand up on my feet.
20 I didn't -- couldn't take any food. I couldn't drink anything throughout
21 that time, so difficult was my condition. And I expected to die at any
22 moment, as a result of the beating that I had sustained.
23 Thank you.
24 Q. Sir, during this beating, how many people were beating you?
25 A. There were four or five of them. You probably want me to say
1 either four or five, but I cannot give you a more accurate number. There
2 were no less than four and not more than five. The room was half dark.
3 Q. I am sorry, please continue.
4 A. Unfortunately, I was not able to recognise anyone for that
5 reason. And also I couldn't look them in their face. I could only see
6 their boots and once I fell down, I remained lying on my stomach. So I
7 couldn't make out their faces. I couldn't see who they were. And as I
8 said, it was almost dark in the room. It was nighttime.
9 Q. When other people from your room returned from being called out,
10 what was their condition?
11 A. No better than mine. Their condition was also severe. They had
12 been badly beaten up. They were crying, asking for water. They were in a
13 desperate condition, covered with blood, they could not stand up on their
14 feet. They were in the same shape as I was.
15 Q. The following morning, what was their condition?
16 A. The following morning, the condition -- their condition was not
17 getting any better. They were in the same condition as they had been the
18 day before, after they had been beaten.
19 Q. Did anyone die as a result of these beatings the previous night?
20 A. That night, I don't know how many of us exactly were beaten, but
21 the next morning, out of all of us who had been called out, there were six
22 or seven detainees who died as a result of the beatings. And once it
23 became light, we recognised that they were dead. They were lying on the
24 floor in this room and they were dead.
25 Q. What are the names of these people that died as a result of the
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
2 A. As for the names, I don't know all of them. I know
6 MS. SUTHERLAND: If we could go into private session, Your Honour.
7 And if we --
8 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Private session.
9 MS. SUTHERLAND: And if we could have redacted from the videotape
10 and the transcript, the names of his relatives.
11 [Private session]
22 [Open session]
23 MS. SUTHERLAND:
24 Q. Sir, after your time in the white house, where were you moved?
25 A. After the white house, I was transferred to the hangar.
1 Q. Were you told why you were being moved to the hangar?
2 A. No.
3 Q. Do you recall when around the date that you were moved to the
4 hangar building?
5 A. All I know is that it was before the 20th of July. Maybe on the
6 19th or maybe even on the 20th of July.
7 Q. How long did you stay in the hangar building?
8 A. I stayed there for about 8 or 10 days.
9 Q. From the hangar building, where were you then moved?
10 A. From the hangar building I was moved to a room which was referred
11 to as Mujo's room.
12 Q. Where was this located?
13 A. These rooms were located inside the administration building of the
14 mine company, the mining company, above the restaurant which had been used
15 prior to the war, which had been used as a canteen for the employees of
16 the mine.
17 Q. Where was the entrance to Mujo's room?
18 A. The entrance to Mujo's room was on the other side from the
19 entrance to the restaurant.
20 Q. Sir, do you know a building called "the red house"?
21 A. Yes, I do.
22 Q. Did you ever see people being taken there?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Did those people return?
25 A. I never saw anyone return.
1 Q. Sir, did you ever see bodies being loaded on to TAM trucks?
2 A. I didn't see bodies being loaded, but I have other knowledge
3 concerning this.
4 Q. Did you hear from other detainees of bodies being loaded on to TAM
6 A. Yes. I heard from other detainees such stories. These stories
7 circulated all the time.
8 Q. In relation to the red house, you said that you never saw these
9 people return. Did you see them again in the camp, or ever again, or
10 anywhere else?
11 A. I did not.
12 Q. I want to ask you some questions about the conditions in Omarska
13 camp. Can you please describe for the Court what the food was like, what
14 your living conditions were like, the hygiene in the camp.
15 A. The living conditions in the Omarska camp were terrible, were
16 totally inappropriate and were so difficult that we didn't have -- there
17 was no hygiene at all. People were dying as a result of such bad
18 conditions, and also as a result of beatings. There were people who had
19 been wounded, but there were no conditions for their treatment at all. So
20 nothing was ever done about that. Those who were lucky and fortunate
21 survived, but they can only thank God for their survival.
22 As far as the food is concerned, we had only one meal a day, which
23 was always the same. It was some kind of soup or a stew; but frankly
24 speaking, it didn't resemble soup at all. It was boiling hot, and we had
25 only two minutes to get there from the rooms where we were to the
1 restaurant and to eat our meal, finish eating, and leave the restaurant.
2 We only had two minutes to do all this. We entered the restaurant in
3 groups of 30 to 40 people. And there were armed Chetniks inside the
4 restaurant who kept walking around the tables and beating us as we were
5 eating this pitiful meal. Many of us couldn't even finish the meal,
6 couldn't eat it up. They would leave the restaurant without having eaten
7 anything. Of course, when something is boiling hot, you need more time.
8 But we simply could not wait. We were hungry. We dreamt about food. We
9 fantasised about eating. And sometimes, there were even days when one was
10 not able to get to the restaurant, and many people didn't eat that one
11 meal that they had, either because the food was lacking or because it was
12 impossible for us to go because sometimes the detainees couldn't walk,
13 some of them. And even that one, as I said, pitiful meal a day was denied
14 to them. And it was so poor in quality that you really couldn't consider
15 it food for humans. As I said, I spent five days in the white house
16 without any food. I couldn't get up, so I didn't eat this little food
17 that we had in the Omarska camp during those five days.
18 When you're starving, you're happy to have this one poor meal if
19 possible. But very often, there were days when we didn't even get that.
20 There were people who were afraid to go to the restaurant, though they
21 were very hungry and had not eaten for days. But they simply didn't dare
22 go there because they were afraid that they would be beaten up or killed
23 at any moment, at any spot. It could happen to anyone.
24 Q. Sir, you mentioned a moment ago that you had some knowledge in
25 relation to bodies being loaded on to TAM trucks. What were you told?
1 And by whom?
2 A. I learned that people who had been killed were loaded on to those
3 trucks and that those trucks were eventually driven to the pits. One
4 could notice on the truck that it was dirty and there were bloodstains on
5 it, bloodstains left by the bodies of the killed detainees. And the
6 detainees who were on the spot told us that these people, these bodies,
7 had been taken away and that they were not returned.
8 Q. Were you ever told why you were detained in Omarska camp?
9 A. No.
10 Q. Do you recall the date that you were transferred from Omarska
12 A. I'm sorry. Could the interpreters speak up a little. I can
13 hardly hear him.
14 Q. I'll repeat my question. Do you recall the date when you were
15 transferred from the Omarska camp?
16 A. Yes, I do recall the date.
17 Q. What date was it, and where were you transferred?
18 A. It was the 6th of August, 1992. On that day, I was transferred to
19 the Manjaca camp.
20 Q. How were you taken there?
21 A. I was taken there in a bus.
22 Q. Where did this -- who owned this bus?
23 A. There were several buses, different buses, belonging to different
24 owners. But the most famous company was the Autotransport Prijedor
1 Q. You mentioned there were a number of buses. How many people were
2 on each of the buses, if you can approximate?
3 A. I can approximate -- I don't know the exact number, but I think
4 that there were -- that each bus carried many more people than it would
5 normally. So at any rate, there were more than 50 people -- actually,
6 between 50 and a hundred people.
7 Q. Were you escorted?
8 A. Yes. Each bus had escorts.
9 Q. Who were these people?
10 A. These people were the same Chetniks from the Omarska camp, the
11 same people who had abused us and beaten us. They were the ones who
12 escorted us to Manjaca.
13 Q. They were the guards from the Omarska camp?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. What were the conditions in the bus when you travelled to Manjaca?
16 A. The conditions in the bus were unbearable. There were too many of
17 us on each bus. People sat between two rows of seats. In the middle of
18 the bus, there were people under the seats. There were so many people.
19 It was so crowded, and it was very hot. The heat was so unbearable that
20 people fainted. They were exhausted. It was stuffy and stifling, and
21 I -- we even thought that the driver turned on the heating in the bus, but
22 we were not allowed to open the windows. We had to keep our heads bent
23 down and our hands behind our heads. And it was in this condition that we
24 were transported to Manjaca.
25 Q. Was anyone mistreated on the buses on the way to Manjaca?
1 A. Yes. People were mistreated on the buses by those same guards who
2 escorted the buses.
3 Q. Is it correct that when you arrived in Manjaca, you had to stay on
4 the bus all night?
5 A. Yes, that's right.
6 Q. And the following day, you were moved into a stable?
7 A. Yes. The next day, later in the afternoon, we were
8 transferred -- or rather, we entered the Manjaca camp, that is, the
9 stables in the camp.
10 Q. When you entered Manjaca, did you see any detainees that were from
11 Prijedor or the Prijedor municipality?
12 A. From Prijedor municipality, I didn't see anyone when we entered
13 the Manjaca camp.
14 Q. How many buses were there that you can recall that left Omarska
15 camp and went to Manjaca?
16 A. As far as I can remember, there were more or less 20 buses.
17 Around 20 buses, plus or minus.
18 Q. You were detained in Manjaca from the 6th of August until the 18th
19 of December. Is that correct?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Were you ever told why you were being detained in Manjaca?
22 A. No, never.
23 Q. Were you required to sign anything prior to leaving Manjaca?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. What were you required to sign, if you recall?
1 A. I had to sign a document on the day I left the Manjaca camp. And
2 that means only a couple of minutes before leaving, so maybe five minutes
3 before I signed this piece of paper. I can't remember exactly to be able
4 to quote what was on that paper. The only thing I can say, if I'm allowed
5 to, is what I assume it could have been. So it is just my assumption.
6 Q. And what did you assume it was?
7 A. I assume that the paper said that I and that all the others,
8 therefore, would not return to the territory of the so-called Serbian
9 region or Serbian Krajina, something to that effect. And if we should
10 happen to return and if I should be arrested again, then I would not go to
11 the camp, but that I would be sentenced to death in advance. So, I would
12 not be deported to the camp, but would be killed. Allow me to add such a
13 statement to the effect that if any of the detainees were to be arrested
14 again, they would be killed, and such a statement was made by the
15 commander of the Manjaca camp. This was what he said orally, on that day
16 when we were leaving Manjaca.
17 Q. You mentioned that you had to sign this form. Did all the other
18 detainees who left on that day also have to sign the form?
19 A. Yes. They all had to sign the same form that I did.
20 Q. Where were you taken?
21 A. From Manjaca, I was taken in the direction of Banja Luka and via
22 Banja Luka to Bosanska Gradiska. From Bosanska Gradiska, we crossed the
23 bridge over the Saleh river to Croatia. In Croatia, we all got in to
24 other buses and were transferred to Karlovac.
25 Q. When you arrived in Karlovac, were you told about your other
2 A. Yes, I was told about my other brothers, what had happened to
3 them. I was told that they had been killed.
4 Q. Where had they been killed?
5 A. They were killed in Biscani or, to be more precise, a part of
6 Biscani called Mrkalji, or still better known as Mrkalji Mlin or mill.
7 Q. Who told you that they had been killed?
8 A. My sister-in-law told me.
9 Q. Did she tell you how it happened?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Can you describe for the Court what you were told?
12 A. Yes. They were in Biscani, my two late brothers, together with
13 their wives. One brother had two children, the other brother didn't have
14 any children. They were in the basement, in the owner's house on the 20th
15 of July when there was cleansing of Rakovcani, Rizvanovici and Biscani,
16 which is known as the great massacre in these three locations. Chetniks
17 broke in to the basement and, among the crowd in the basement, there were
18 women, children and elderly people. They took out the two of them outside
19 and led them to another house which was close by. I do not wish to
20 mention the name of the owner of that house unless you insist.
21 Q. Please don't.
22 A. They were taken to another yard that was very close by, some 15
23 metres away and that is where they were killed, together with some other
24 men -- and I don't know who they were, the others -- without any cause --
25 I beg your pardon -- without any questions asked. They were simply killed
1 with automatic rifles.
2 Q. Did your sister-in-law tell you how your brothers were dressed
3 they day?
4 A. Yes. They were in civilian clothes. What is more, my brother had
5 a track suit on him, as did my other brother. My sister-in-law -- I do
6 apologise -- my sister-in-law has the top of that track suit. She had it
7 with her -- she had this with her at that time. I don't know whether she
8 still has it.
9 Q. Do you know whether your brothers were armed?
10 A. No, they were not armed.
11 Q. Were you told that someone collected these bodies on a truck?
12 A. Yes. They told me that after a few days the bodies were
13 collected. All those bodies were left lying there, or actually the bodies
14 in all three places, Rakovcani, Rizvanovici and Biscani, lay there for
15 several days and were, after that, collected and driven away in an unknown
17 Q. Do you know where the persons from Biscani village went?
18 A. Yes, I do. All the persons who were there, women and children and
19 the elderly, if you think they were few, these elderly men, all of them
20 went to Tukovi near the stadium and stayed there until they were deported
21 to Travnik.
22 Q. Sir, my final question for you is this: Were you or any members
23 of your family a member of any armed resistance?
24 A. No.
25 MS. SUTHERLAND: Thank you.
1 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: I believe it is appropriate to have a break now.
2 Let's resume five minutes past 11.00.
3 --- Recess taken at 10.43 a.m.
4 --- On resuming at 11.05 a.m.
5 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Please be seated.
6 Witness C may be brought in, please.
7 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honours.
8 Cross-examined by Mr. Lukic:
9 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. C.
10 A. Good morning.
11 Q. My name is Branko Lukic and, together with Mr. John Ostojic, I am
12 Defence counsel for Mr. Stakic. We shall now begin with our
13 cross-examination, which won't be as lengthy and detailed as the
14 examination-in-chief by the Prosecution, but I would like to appeal to you
15 to assist us in clarifying a few facts.
16 Can we begin?
17 A. Yes, we can. But I would like to ask you, if you could, and if
18 Their Honours allow, to speak in English, because this is a bit confusing
19 for me. The reason being that I can immediately answer your questions,
20 forgetting the need for translation into English, or maybe French.
21 MR. LUKIC: [In English] Your Honours, I would like to continue in
22 B/C/S, and we would hope that we will all be a bit more cautious and try
23 to pause in between questions.
24 [Trial Chamber confers]
25 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Defence counsel, please understand, we may
1 continue in B/C/S, but please take on your headphones that in case there
2 is overlapping, you can immediately hear it.
3 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honours.
4 Q. [Interpretation] Let us begin. Do you know that in the former
5 Yugoslavia, it was normal for the perpetrator of a murder to be arrested?
6 A. Yes, I did know that.
7 Q. Let me ask you something about the incident at Hambarine, and
8 please have in mind Mr. Ferid Sikiric who was wounded on that occasion.
9 Do you know that Mr. Sikiric was wounded in the back?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. In the course of that incident, were armed Muslims withdrawing
12 from a checkpoint?
13 A. Armed Bosniaks - I wish to correct you, not Muslims - remained at
14 the checkpoint.
15 Q. Does that mean that armed Bosniaks were at the checkpoint
16 throughout the duration of the shooting?
17 A. Yes. While the incident was occurring, it was only normal that
18 they should be at the checkpoint.
19 Q. Do you know that people who were present during the incident are
20 claiming that Mr. Sikiric was wounded in the back by one of the armed
21 Bosniaks present?
22 A. Mr. Sikiric was wounded by one of the Chetniks who were in that
23 car that was passing by the checkpoint.
24 Q. How do you know that?
25 A. I heard that, and it's only logical. As the car passed by the
1 checkpoint, they opened fire from the car at a group of Bosniaks who were
2 at the checkpoint. And on that occasion, Ferid Sikiric was wounded in the
4 Q. Witness C, we have just established that armed Bosniaks were at
5 the checkpoint or the time and that they were not withdrawing. How can
6 you explain then, that someone who is facing the enemy because obviously
7 according to you there was an armed incident occurring, could be hit in
8 the back?
9 A. I can't understand your question. Could you be more specific.
10 Q. I will do my best.
11 We have established that Muslims or rather Bosniaks who were armed
12 and who were at the checkpoint were there all the time and that they were
13 not withdrawing. How can you explain that someone could be wounded in the
14 back by the enemy that is in front of the checkpoint?
15 A. It is true that the Bosniaks were not withdrawing, they were at
16 the checkpoint. And as the car arrived from the direction of Ljubija in
17 the direction of Prijedor , that means on the return trip, fire was
18 opened from the car in front of the checkpoint and Ferid Sikiric was at
19 the checkpoint facing Tukovi, that is Prijedor, in the direction of
20 Prijedor, and in the shooting, he was wounded in the back.
21 Q. Who told you about this, the way he was facing, as you just
23 A. I was told that after a certain period of time when I arrived home
24 after that incident.
25 Q. Could you tell us please how the other persons at the checkpoint
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 were facing, in which direction were the other people facing?
2 A. No, I can't tell you. Because I was not told about that. Only
3 Ferid was wounded and we talked about him.
4 Q. But you mentioned Aziz Aliskovic, too?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Can you tell us which way he was facing?
7 A. No.
8 Q. Thank you.
9 In your statement you said: "I came to the conclusion that no one
10 had any trust any more in the JNA." Who, in your opinion, did not trust
11 the JNA?
12 A. In my view, I, personally, had no trust in them, and the other
13 Bosniaks in Bosnia, all Croats in Bosnia, and then the Croats in Croatia
14 and the Slovenes in Slovenia.
15 Q. Did the Serbs have faith in the JNA?
16 A. Of course.
17 Q. Can it be concluded then that your conclusion that no one had
18 faith in the JNA is not correct?
19 A. I have already said who did have faith in them and who did not.
20 Q. Are the Serbs for you no one?
21 A. Before the war, it was known who the Serbs were, who the Bosniaks
22 were and who the Croats were. You know that very well. Because we lived
23 together in Bosnia, all of us, together, and there were no big problems
24 until everything started in 1990, when political parties started to be
25 formed, that is, the multiparty system was introduced. It was then that
1 everything was turned upside down.
2 Q. In the period of time you are referring to, was the JNA the legal
3 military force in Yugoslavia and Bosnia-Herzegovina?
4 A. It was until 1991, when it attacked Slovenia.
5 Q. In your statement, you also said that: "In September I received
6 callup papers, along with another 350 men, and we ignored it." Is that
8 A. Yes. In September 1991.
9 Q. Where were these 350 other Muslims who received callup papers
10 together with you from?
11 A. Correction, Bosniaks. They were from the area of Hambarine.
12 Q. How do you know that these 350 other men, the Bosniaks, ignored
13 the callup for mobilisation?
14 A. I know because no one responded and this was what I knew, that no
15 one went to the front lines in Croatia.
16 Q. Would you change your opinion if I were to tell you that a large
17 number of Muslims and Croats did respond to the call for mobilisation in
18 September 1991 and there are official documents about that?
19 A. If they did respond, then they were few in number. I don't know
20 with precision how many, and they were, in my opinion, my personal
21 opinion, they were forced to do that. Even the military police would come
22 looking for those people in their homes and would deport them to barracks
23 and from there to the battlefront in Croatia. That was done with the help
24 of the military police, regardless of the will of those people who did not
25 want to go. They may be the people that you said had responded to the
2 Q. Do you know that an agreement had been reached among the parties
3 in cooperation with the JNA that whoever was -- wanted to go to the front
4 could go, and those who didn't want to go, needed to say so clearly and
5 return their weapons and equipment?
6 A. I'm not aware of any such agreement that you have mentioned as
7 having been reached among the political parties, I assume you mean, and
8 the former JNA. I'm not aware of that. Maybe you know something more
9 about that. Maybe you could clarify it; maybe I'd like to hear more about
11 Q. Do you know whether Muslims and Croats that were sent to the front
12 were given weapons?
13 A. Will you please, for the third time, I'm asking you to use the
14 term "Bosniaks". If you use the word -- if you're talking about
15 nationality, use the word "Bosniaks." If you're talking about religion
16 and religious affiliation, then you can call them Muslims, Catholics, and
17 Orthodox. But regarding ethnicity, you may use the terms "Bosniaks,"
18 "Serbs," and "Croats."
19 Your Honours, I apologise for this intervention.
20 Q. We are talking about the year 1992 and 1991. Were there Bosniaks
21 in 1991 and 1992?
22 A. Yes. At the population census sometime in March 1991, it was
23 stated that there were Bosniaks in Bosnia-Herzegovina. I apologise. Let
24 me add: Bosniaks, if we can go back in history, are mentioned centuries
25 ago, even during the Turks, which ruled Bosnia for 500 years, and also
1 during the Austro-Hungarian empire. This can be easily be checked in the
2 archives that exist in Turkey and in Vienna, the capital of Austria.
3 Q. Let's move on from these history lessons to the question that I
4 put to you. The Croats and Bosniaks who were sent to the front, were they
5 issued weapons?
6 A. I don't know that. I was not with them. I was not in touch with
7 them. So I can't say, and I can't confirm that they were issued weapons.
8 I don't know that.
9 Q. Do you know what was the response to mobilisation in other Bosniak
10 and Croat settlements?
11 A. Do you mean in Prijedor municipality or in Bosnia and Herzegovina
12 as a whole?
13 Q. I mean Prijedor municipality.
14 A. No, I don't know that.
15 Q. I should now like to move to your testimony about Celpac. You
16 remained working at Celpac up until the outbreak of the conflict. Is that
18 A. Yes, it is, until the incident which took place in Hambarine.
19 Q. You stated that you were requested to remain at work, although, as
20 you said, there was not much work to do. Is that correct?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Was there any electricity in Prijedor at that time?
23 A. In the town of Prijedor, yes, there was electricity there until
24 the 22nd of May. I don't know about the period of time which followed
25 later. I know that there were shortages from time to time.
1 Q. This lack of work and power shortages, were these the consequences
2 of the general conditions in the state at that time?
3 A. I couldn't say that. Maybe the accused knows more about it than I
5 Q. Do you know what the situation was in other Prijedor-based
7 A. No.
8 Q. On the 22nd of May, 1992, on the bus that took you home from work,
9 were there both Serbs and Bosniaks?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Was everyone ordered to get off the bus?
12 A. Yes. In Tukovi, everyone left the bus.
13 Q. As for the mixed groups of the army and the police which were
14 manning the checkpoints, were they also ethnically mixed?
15 A. Could you tell me which checkpoint you have in mind?
16 Q. Let's say the checkpoint at which you were stopped in Tukovi on
17 the 22nd of May.
18 A. I don't know whether the checkpoint in Tukovi was ethnically
19 mixed. I did not have an opportunity to ask them about their ethnic
20 background. It would have been absurd. But at any rate, it was known
21 that this particular checkpoint was manned by only one ethnic group, and
22 you know which one.
23 Q. Are you familiar with the existence of any other checkpoint manned
24 by a mixed group of military and the police? Do you know that any such
25 checkpoint was also ethnically mixed?
1 A. No. If you have any such knowledge, please feel free to put it to
3 Q. I'm not allowed to testify here, Witness.
4 A. My apologies.
5 Q. You say that the soldiers who were manning the Tukovi checkpoint
6 had red and white armbands. Did any of the civilians on the bus wear any
7 of such armbands?
8 A. No. No civilian had such a band.
9 Q. You testified that the guards at the checkpoint were clean
10 shaven -- they didn't have any moustache or beard -- but that you knew
11 them to be Chetniks. Can you describe for us a Chetnik? What does he
12 look like and why did you call these guards "Chetniks"?
13 A. They were Chetniks. It's a fact, regardless of whether they had a
14 beard or not, or a moustache. It was by their uniform that one could
15 judge that, regardless of whether the uniform was a police uniform or an
16 army uniform. For me, they were Chetniks. And as I said, it was a fact.
17 Do you want to know why I call them Chetniks, why I refer to them
18 as Chetniks? It is a well-known word. It is well known to everyone in
19 Bosnia and Herzegovina, through Croatia, and further on -- in Croatia and
20 further on. The term has been used ever since the Second World War.
21 [Technical difficulty]
22 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: I believe we have to stop. The transcript
23 doesn't follow.
24 Let's try again. You can see on the video where the transcript
25 stopped and you added two sentences. The last sentence was "The term has
1 been used ever since the Second World War." Could you proceed there.
2 Thank you.
3 MR. LUKIC:
4 Q. Witness C, as you can see, we have had some technical problems and
5 we will have to repeat the last question and the last answer.
6 Was every Serb police officer or a Serb soldier -- is every Serb
7 police officer or a Serb soldier a Chetnik for you?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Does the word "Chetnik", does it have negative connotations for
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Do you hate Chetniks?
13 A. Well, I have no reason to like them after everything that has
14 happened in Bosnia-Herzegovina, after what has happened to me personally
15 and to my family. And in general, in Bosnia-Herzegovina, after what has
16 been done by Chetniks.
17 Q. Do you hate them?
18 A. Of course. Why would I like them? I have no reason to like
19 them. And, well, if you want a specific answer, yes, I hate them.
20 Q. Let us go back to the 22nd of May when you were stopped at the
21 Tukovi checkpoint. The Serb soldiers who were at the checkpoint, did they
22 see you were from Hambarine?
23 A. No, they didn't know that I was from Hambarine. They didn't ask
24 me that.
25 Q. Did they see you leave in the direction of Hambarine?
1 A. No.
2 Q. But can we conclude that you did leave towards Ljubija and
4 A. Yes, towards Ljubija, but not the usual way, not along the road
5 which is normally used by the local bus.
6 Q. The Serb soldiers were police officers or civilians who were
7 inside the car which was shot at, at the Hambarine checkpoint, were they
8 in a bulletproof armoured vehicle?
9 A. According to what I heard from the members of my family after I
10 had returned home, it was a civilian vehicle.
11 Q. Don't you think that the story that you heard from others
12 involving four individuals driving in a civilian car who, according to the
13 story, opened fire to a checkpoint which was manned by armed individuals
15 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
16 MR. LUKIC:
17 Q. -- don't you think that this storey is not credible?
18 A. Why would I believe that? Why would I think it is not credible?
19 Why would anyone make it up? And besides, I trust the members of my
20 family who told me about that, about what had happened.
21 Q. Were members of your family present when this incident happened?
22 A. No.
23 Q. You say that you heard that the car had stopped after 30 metres.
24 Doesn't that indicate that the car was shot at, even before it reached the
1 A. No. The fire was opened from the car before the checkpoint and as
2 the car was passing, Ferid Sikiric was wounded in this shooting and the
3 car continued towards Prijedor. At that moment, fire was returned from
4 the checkpoint towards the car which was -- which stopped at that moment
5 some 30 metres away.
6 Q. Is it your testimony that the car was shot at once it had passed
7 the checkpoint?
8 A. The car was shot at as it was passing by the checkpoint, as it was
9 moving in the direction of Prijedor and, as I had already indicated, it
10 was the fire which came as a response to the fire which had been opened
11 from the car.
12 Q. I should like you to go back to the time prior to the attack on
13 Hambarine, if you can, please. In your statement, you declared that at
14 least 1.000 shells fell on Hambarine and that you heard later that fire
15 had been opened from the Bosniak checkpoint. Is that correct?
16 A. A large number of shells landed on the village of Hambarine. It
17 was difficult to count them. We counted up until hundred and then we
18 stopped. It was no longer possible to count the shells because at the
19 same time -- they were hitting the area at the same time and you could no
20 longer distinguish between these shells. So several shells were falling
21 at the same time and I think, I am sure, about this figure, as regards the
22 number of shells that hit Hambarine.
23 As for the shooting at the checkpoint, it came at the moment when
24 Chetnik forces moved towards Hambarine in a pack and an APC together with
25 infantry forces. It was at that moment that the Bosniak guards, who were
1 there at the checkpoint, in the field in Hambarine, put up a defence.
2 They tried to defend themselves from a Chetnik attack which was coming
3 from the direction of Prijedor.
4 Q. Does it mean that shooting could be heard after the shelling had
6 A. After the shelling, we could hear fire being opened from infantry
7 weapons and also from armed personnel carriers, a fire which is somewhat
8 different from the one opened from infantry weapons, which was a sign that
9 Chetnik forces were moving towards Hambarine. Our forces, while the
10 shelling still went on, did not open fire. They had no reason to open
11 fire, because the shelling was still going on from a great distance. So
12 it was not necessary to return fire because of the kind of weapons that
13 they had. They only had a handful of rifles. It was only after the
14 Chetnik forces had started moving towards the village with the infantry
15 forces and assisted by two or three tanks - I don't know exactly how many;
16 it's not important - and some APCs, that is, armoured carriers, that our
17 guards, who were down there, tried to defend themselves.
18 Q. In your statement, you also declared that in this fighting which
19 took place at the checkpoint, two police officers were killed, two Bosniak
20 police officers.
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Are you sure that there were no checkpoints in Hambarine before
23 the 30th of April, 1992?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. How do you know that?
1 A. I know because I went to Prijedor every day. I went to work every
2 day. And on the way to Prijedor and on the way back, I would pass by the
3 spot at the road where the checkpoint was. When I went to work, this
4 checkpoint was not there before the 30th of April.
5 Q. You spoke about two checkpoints. Where was the other one located
6 and when was it set up?
7 A. As regards this other checkpoint, I don't think I should refer to
8 it as a "checkpoint". Personally, I don't think it was a checkpoint,
9 although you call it that way. However, it was merely a spot where guards
10 were sometimes on duty in order to control the area in case of an
11 incursion of Chetniks from the other side of the village of Hambarine.
12 The people who stood guard on this location were not armed. They were all
13 civilians. They wore civilian uniforms, that is, civilian clothes, and
14 stood there unarmed in case Chetniks should try to attack the village from
15 the direction of Ljeskare.
16 Q. Did you take part in the arming of people in Hambarine?
17 A. No.
18 Q. Do you know who are the people who had weapons?
19 A. Only those people who were at the checkpoint that has already been
20 mentioned had weapons in Hambarine. The checkpoint mentioned in the
21 incident, that is, Hambarine, in the field, they had weapons. The weapons
22 they had was the property of the former Territorial Defence, the
23 Territorial Defence of Hambarine.
24 Q. Do you know that people from Hambarine participated in the attack
25 on Prijedor on the 30th of May, 1992?
1 A. No. I don't know who took part in that attack that you mention.
2 Q. Could you tell us, what is your understanding of the situation if
3 in Hambarine, the village of Hambarine, there were only ten or so rifles,
4 how was it possible that the ultimatum be rejected issued by the army to
5 hand over the killers and the weapons?
6 A. Who do you mean as "the killers"?
7 Q. The army demanded that the killers of the people in the car be
8 surrendered, didn't they?
9 A. Yes. You call them "killers," but in fact, for me, they are not
10 killers. They did so in self-defence. For me, the killers are those who
11 were in the car.
12 Q. Could you please try and answer my question. How would you
13 explain the rejection of the ultimatum issued by the army to hand over
14 those men and the weapons, the people who opened fire at the checkpoint?
15 A. I don't have an opinion of my own in that regard. I was not
16 someone who decided about that, nor was I consulted. And I do not wish to
17 say anything about that, because I was not competent in regard to that
18 surrender of weapons or the ultimatum received from the Chetniks.
19 Q. You said that you withdrew to the woods between Carakovo and
20 Hambarine. Who was in control of this area?
21 A. This area was under the control of the Chetniks; however, they
22 were not always there, but occasionally they would open fire and shell and
23 infiltrate themselves. Or to be more precise, in that area, in the woods
24 between Carakovo and Hambarine, there was no checkpoint held by the
25 Chetnik forces.
1 Q. Was there a dugout in that area?
2 A. There were just meadows, a stream, and woods in that area. There
3 were no dugouts. What is more, there were many people from Hambarine with
4 their livestock who could no longer keep them at home during the attack on
5 Hambarine. Everything fled, and they were there, too, together with their
6 livestock and whatever they were able to carry. And that was some food,
7 if they had any, they took with them, and that is how it was while they
8 stayed in those woods between Carakovo and Hambarine.
9 Q. What did you mean when you said that the Muslims self-organised
10 themselves to form armed forces? You, yourself, used the term "Muslim,"
11 so I'm just citing what you said. I hope you won't take it against me.
12 A. I'm quite sure that I said "Bosniaks." But it may be a technical
13 error in the translation, if you're referring to my statement, my written
14 statement, if you --
15 Q. Page 4, fifth paragraph, second line of your statement. However,
16 I can paraphrase if you don't like this, but what did you mean when you
17 said that: "The Bosniaks self-organised themselves into armed forces"?
18 A. Will you be more precise, please? Will you tell me when and
20 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Counsel, may I ask you once, again as I did in
21 the beginning with the first witness, please quote the entire sentence and
22 indicate for the record the exact paragraph and the page you are quoting.
23 It facilitates our lives. Thank you.
24 MR. LUKIC: [In English] Bear with me, Your Honours. Give me a few
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 Your Honours, I was following the B/C/S version, and it's page 4,
2 paragraph 5, second line. So I'll try to find it in the English version.
3 MR. KOUMJIAN: Just to assist counsel, it's page 4.
4 MR. LUKIC: Yes, also the fifth paragraph. And it starts in the
5 first row.
6 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: I think it would be also of assistance for the
7 witness if you could quote to the record the sentence you mean.
8 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
9 Q. "At my village, there were two checkpoints manned by Muslims. The
10 Muslim people had self-organised themselves into Defence Forces." Page 4,
11 fifth paragraph, first line, and onwards. Can you tell us what you meant
12 under "armed forces"?
13 A. I think it says "defence forces" over there, as far as my
14 recollection serves me.
15 Q. Yes. Could you tell us, please, what you mean by "defence
17 A. What I mean is that they organised themselves and set up or
18 organised that checkpoint that we have already talked about at Hambarine
19 in the field, and a second checkpoint, that you call a checkpoint even
20 though it wasn't a checkpoint, for me a checkpoint has to have weapons,
21 this other checkpoint, I have to use that term because you are using it,
22 so that you know what I am talking about. That one was without weapons.
23 And it is my belief that this was organisation of self-defence. That was
24 this act of self-defence, that is, the formation of that checkpoint in
25 Hambarine and this second so-called checkpoint at the other side of
1 Hambarine, between Hambarine and Ljeskare. I think I already mentioned
2 that a moment ago in my statement.
3 Q. Let us focus for a moment on this checkpoint. Official police
4 cars going from Prijedor to Ljubija, did they have to pass by this
5 checkpoint on the road?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. The army and the police, after the takeover of power on the 30th
8 of April, did they enter Hambarine before the attack on the checkpoint?
9 A. I can't say because I wasn't at the checkpoint. I went to work.
10 I was at work all day from 6.00 a.m. to 6.00 p.m. I had my working
11 hours. So I can't answer that question of yours. Briefly, I don't know.
12 Q. Did any of your relatives mention the army or the police entering
13 the village or did they not mention anything along those lines?
14 A. Do you mean before this incident at Hambarine?
15 Q. Yes, before the incident.
16 A. No, they didn't mention it.
17 Q. Mr. C, are you aware that in the woods of Kurevo, there were armed
19 A. No, there weren't any armed Bosniaks there.
20 Q. Do you know that in these woods, there were for a time, Mirza
21 Mujadzic, Hasan Talundzic and others from the Prijedor police, Prijedor
23 A. I don't know that they were in the woods of Kurevo. In my
24 testimony, I already said who was in the Kurevo woods and I don't think it
25 is necessary for me to repeat myself.
1 Q. Do you know that in August 1991 the war had already started in
3 A. Yes, I know that.
4 Q. You say that military helicopters would land three or four times a
5 day in the area close to Hambarine, very close to Hambarine?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. So this landing occurred during the day?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. You indicated a period roughly of some 90 days; you said August,
10 September, October?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Bearing in mind that there were three or four landings a day and
13 over a periods of 90 days that would mean between 270 and 360 landings,
14 would that be a correct conclusion?
15 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Counsel, may I interrupt you. The witness said
16 twice, five to six times every day and you quoted this and why do you say
17 now, three or four landings a day?
18 MR. LUKIC: I think that I heard three to four times a day.
19 Sorry. But we can accept five to six.
20 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: So, please once again I really ask you, take the
21 advantage. You have the document before you and quote the entire sentence
22 and of the origin. This would be in this case, page four, paragraph two,
23 the fifth line.
24 MR. LUKIC: I was quoting from today's transcript, Your Honour, so
25 that is why. Maybe there is some discrepancy. But I accept and I don't
1 think that it is crucial.
2 May I proceed?
3 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Yes.
4 MR. LUKIC: Thank you.
5 Q. You said that these helicopters were flying at a very low altitude
6 when they were observed and followed. Is that correct?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Were you following and monitoring the landing of the helicopters?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Who organised this observation and monitoring?
11 A. I am sorry, I think that is an inappropriate question. No
12 organisation is required for such a thing. This monitoring was in front
13 of my house, in the yard. Actually, we were in the house. We were at
15 Q. Did you see these helicopters arm the Serbs ?
16 A. I said that I saw the helicopters that were going in that
17 direction and landing there and -- however, I cannot from Hambarine, from
18 my house in Hambarine to be even more precise, see them taking out or
19 unloading the weapons from the helicopters, unloading it and what after
20 that they did with those weapons, whom they gave them to and so on.
21 Q. Would it be possible that these helicopter landings were intended
22 for the war in Croatia?
23 A. I can't say that, whether they were linked to the war in Croatia
24 or not. The people in charge of that operation would know that.
25 Q. In your statement on page four of the English version, fifth
1 paragraph, fourth line, you said and I quote, "At the checkpoints there
2 were approximately 10 people and they were led by the Crisis Staff
4 Could you tell us a little more about this Crisis Staff
5 A. All I know is that the Crisis Staff of Hambarine was set up after
6 the 30th of April, that is, after the military coup, the military putsch
7 in Prijedor municipality carried out by the Serbian police and the
8 military in Prijedor municipality.
9 Q. You mentioned a military putsch, but could you please answer my
10 question and tell me about the Crisis Staff in Hambarine.
11 A. I already said when the Crisis Staff was formed.
12 Q. Would you tell us who the members were and what their roles were,
13 if you know.
14 A. I'll tell you as much as I know. All the members of the Crisis
15 Staff were not known to me. I just knew of two members. As regards their
16 positions, I can't tell you that either, what functions each of them had.
17 In my view, there were not more than four or five members of the Crisis
18 Staff. That is my opinion, my arbitrary opinion.
19 Q. Could you tell us the names of those two people?
20 A. Certainly I can. Their names were Ferid Sikiric, Agnan Sikiric.
21 Q. Thank you.
22 A meeting was held in Hambarine, do you know that a meeting of the
23 SDA Crisis Staff was in Hambarine of Prijedor municipality to take over
24 power in Prijedor by force?
25 A. No.
1 Q. We shall now very briefly ask you a few questions about Omarska.
2 Was there ever any epidemics in Omarska?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Do you know what kind of epidemics?
5 A. Medically, I can't tell you its name. But I do know, and I can
6 use an ordinary word which is used by the people, and that is many, many
7 detainees had an epidemics, an attack of diarrhea. Also, all the
8 detainees had lice in their hair, the hair of their heads. We were all
9 without exception infected in this way. There were even symptoms of
10 hepatitis in the Omarska camp. I apologise for using such words. I hope
11 you will be able to understand what I'm referring to.
12 Q. The prisoners in Omarska, before their meal, did they wash their
13 hands in a disinfectant solution?
14 A. No. There were no such solutions in Omarska at all, no such
16 MR. LUKIC: [In English] Your Honour, we are now --
17 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Thank you, counsel. It's appropriate to have
18 the break now. And before we start with the break, only one question to
19 the OTP. What about their intentions, re-examination, and Dr. Donia this
20 afternoon? Or how do you want to proceed?
21 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, at this stage I have no
22 re-examination for the witness. And it's my understanding that Mr. Cayley
23 is going to deal with Dr. Donia this afternoon.
24 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: What's the time you expect to use for your final
1 MR. LUKIC: At least half an hour, Your Honour.
2 MR. KOUMJIAN: Your Honour, there is one matter that I wanted to
3 raise that's short. And I was hoping I could raise it because if
4 Mr. Cayley is here this afternoon with Ms. Sutherland, there really won't
5 be room at the table for me. And that is in regards to the motions -- the
6 Court's oral order, I believe last Thursday, for the identification
8 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Sorry. I said already we have to take care of
9 the time limits of the interests of the witness, and then the interest of
10 Dr. Donia, and then finally it's our interests to discuss the
11 administrative matters. Please understand. Thank you.
12 MR. KOUMJIAN: I understand. Just so the Court knows, there is a
13 time limit on this of today. So I do need a decision on this today
14 because of the rules.
15 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: So we stay adjourned and resume at 2.00.
16 --- Luncheon recess taken at 12.30 p.m.
17 --- On resuming at 2.03 p.m.
18 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: We resume immediately, and may the Defence
19 continue with the cross-examination, please.
20 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
21 Q. [Interpretation] Witness C, when you spoke about the release from
22 Manjaca, you told us about what you assumed was written on the release
23 papers, but you don't actually remember the exact words?
24 A. That is correct. I don't remember the text. If necessary, I can
25 explain why.
1 Q. In relation to this, I should like to ask you whether you know
2 whether, before your release from Manjaca, it had already been agreed with
3 the international Red Cross that you would be transferred to a third
4 country. Are you aware of any such agreement?
5 A. I am aware of this agreement; however, we were not sure that this
6 would happen. We heard about this agreement immediately before our
7 release from the Manjaca camp. During our last days at Manjaca, we
8 learned from the Red Cross that there were such ideas, but we didn't
9 really believe that we would be released. We didn't harbour much hope to
10 that effect.
11 Q. Thank you. Thank you for your answer. Was the commander of the
12 Manjaca camp familiar with your release and departure to a third country?
13 Was he aware of that?
14 A. I don't know that. I cannot tell you that.
15 Q. Do you know whether Aziz Aliskovic was a member of the Crisis
16 Staff in Hambarine?
17 A. I don't know whether Aziz Aliskovic was a member of the Hambarine
18 Crisis Staff.
19 Q. Can you tell us how long was the operation which started on the
20 22nd of May -- actually, the 22nd of May was the date of the checkpoint
21 incident. But do you know when the attack on Hambarine started and how
22 long it lasted?
23 A. You're quite right about the incident. It took place on the 22nd
24 of May. As for the attack and the shelling of Hambarine, it started
25 around 12.00 approximately. And it lasted until half past 6.00
2 Q. You mean on the same day, on the 22nd of May?
3 A. No, no. On the 23rd of May.
4 Q. Was the operation completed at 7.00 that evening? When did it
6 A. The attack on Hambarine finished at about half past 6.00 or 7.00.
7 I cannot tell you the exact hour and the minute. But it must have been
8 thereabouts, between half past 6.00 and 7.00.
9 Q. You say that the civilians had left Hambarine?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Did the civilians go back to Hambarine; and if so, when?
12 A. Not all of the civilians returned to Hambarine. There were
13 individual returns secretly. People would go back to their homes to get
14 some food, and then they would leave again.
15 Q. We saw that two police officers were killed on that day. What
16 about other people who had weapons? Where were they? You said that there
17 were at least ten rifles.
18 A. I said that there were up to ten rifles, not at least ten rifles.
19 There were not more than ten rifles. Will you please take note of this.
20 Q. Thank you for the correction. But do you know where other armed
21 people eventually ended up? What happened with them?
22 A. Other people who had weapons withdrew towards the Kurevo woods
23 with the rest of the civilian population.
24 Q. Thank you, Witness C.
25 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] This concludes my cross-examination of
1 you. Thank you for your answers.
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, too.
3 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Once again, the question, any re-examination by
4 the Office of the Prosecutor?
5 MS. SUTHERLAND: No, Your Honour.
6 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Thank you.
7 Witness C, I'm sorry to say that the Judges have some additional
8 questions. We really need to have the entire picture of Prijedor, what
9 happened in the camps; and therefore, I have already to apologise now
10 beforehand that there will be the one or other question you will regard as
11 repetitive. But for us, some clarification seems to be necessary.
12 Questioned by the Court:
13 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Could you please tell us once again since when
14 and until when did you live in Prijedor?
15 A. Your Honours, I will be happy to answer your question and tell you
16 when I lived in Prijedor. I was -- I lived in Prijedor ever since my
17 birth until 1977. From 1977 up until 1981, I was absent from Prijedor.
18 And then again, from 1981 until 1992, when the war started in Bosnia, I
19 was in Prijedor. That is, I lived in my native town.
20 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Thank you for this very precise answer. Could
21 you please tell me, has there been any JNA barracks in Prijedor?
22 A. Yes. There was a JNA barracks there.
23 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: One, two, three?
24 A. There were two barracks in Prijedor. One of them was quite large,
25 and the other one was rather small and was located in another area, away
1 from this big one.
2 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: How many people would you say were -- could be
3 regarded as JNA personnel?
4 A. According to what I remember from the time before the war, during
5 military exercises and while in barracks, I remember that there were two
6 battalions approximately in the barracks, but that is just my estimate,
7 including the reserve force, which was there, or which members of which
8 came to the barracks from time to time to be issued with weapons for the
9 purposes of military exercises. Military exercises. The weapons, we
10 would return them upon the completion of the military exercise in the same
12 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Witness C, do you remember the elections held in
13 November 1990 in Prijedor municipality?
14 A. Yes, I do.
15 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Was there any substantive change in the society
16 you would remember?
17 A. Well, there was a substantive change which occurred after the
19 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Could you please explain a little bit, in
21 A. After these multiparty elections, which were the first multiparty
22 elections in Bosnia and Herzegovina, and they took place on the 18th of
23 November, 1990, it was the SDA that got the majority of votes. And after
24 the election, changes occurred within the structure of the municipal
25 government. There were some changes made in various companies in
1 Prijedor, and different people took up leading and managing positions,
2 people who were representatives of these parties, that is, the SDA, the
3 SDS, and the HDZ, in part. And other opposition parties. The SDS won the
4 majority of votes during the election; and after the election, they were
5 the leading party. The elections were legal, carried out in accordance
6 with relevant laws. The SDS got some positions within the structure of
7 the local municipal government, and also some leading positions in various
9 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: After these elections, have there been any
10 difficulties, especially in the JNA, between Serbs and Muslims?
11 A. Yes, there were problems. They couldn't come to an agreement as
12 regards the distribution of leading positions and leading offices within
13 the municipal government and the executive authority. So as I said, they
14 couldn't agree on these issues, and they tried to negotiate. However, to
15 no avail, because the SDS wanted many of these functions, these positions,
16 although they did not have the majority of the votes as a result of the
17 elections. Therefore, there were lots of disagreements, lots of
18 differences, between these -- amongst these parties as the SDS, SDA and
19 HDZ. As the SDS was against the majority of -- all of the decisions which
20 were reached by the SDA and HDZ. And the SDS, as a result of that,
21 enjoyed the support of the former JNA which had sided with them and gave
22 them their support in respect of everything. So they had this military
23 support, the support which they used and abused, to the detriment of other
24 peoples, other communities, in the municipality, especially against
25 Muslims, Bosniaks, and also against Croats, including a number of minority
1 groups that lived in the area of the Prijedor municipality.
2 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Was there anything one could call a series of
3 dismissing people from their jobs?
4 A. After the takeover by the SDS, after this military coup which was
5 carried out with the assistance of the former JNA, the military, and the
6 civilian police force, many people were dismissed from their positions,
7 from their jobs. I can illustrate this with an example which relates to a
8 more important office. I don't know whether Your Honours want me to tell
9 you about this.
10 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Yes, proceed.
11 A. The mayor of the municipality of Prijedor, Mr. Muhamed Cehajic,
12 was legally elected during these multiparty elections which took place on
13 the date that I indicated. However, after this military coup, after the
14 takeover of power which happened overnight and with force, Muhamed Cehajic
15 was ousted from this office, as was the case with a number of officials
16 who worked at the MUP in the Prijedor municipality. When I say "MUP," I
17 refer to the Ministry of the Interior, the department of MUP in the
18 municipality of Prijedor. Police officers were dismissed, but not only
19 police officers; this was the case with administrative staff as well and
20 other personnel such as inspectors and other officials. Many such changes
21 occurred in various companies.
22 The mayor, Mr. Muhamed Cehajic, was subsequently taken to the
23 Omarska camp where he was killed. His successor was a man from the SDS. I
24 can tell you his name, if you want me to.
25 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Please do.
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 A. Mr. Stakic, the accused in this case.
2 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: When did you hear the name Dr. Stakic the first
3 time in Prijedor?
4 A. The first time I heard about him was when the SDS was established
5 in the Prijedor municipality. And also, after the first multiparty
6 election, although at the time, he did not occupy this particular
7 position, the one he took over in 1992. After Mr. Muhamed Cehajic was
8 ousted from office.
9 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Did you see him in the town?
10 A. No. I did not personally know him, and I wish to say that I am
11 pleased with the fact that I didn't know him personally. Likewise, I wish
12 to say that I consider myself fortunate because I did not know these
13 people before the war, the people who were in Keraterm, Omarska, and
14 Manjaca. I am referring specifically to the guards in these camps. I
15 hope, Your Honours, that you can understand why.
16 Once again, let me stress that I am actually pleased with the fact
17 that I did not know them, because I think that it saved my life. I think
18 this is one of the reasons why I am now sitting here in this courtroom
19 before this Honourable Chamber.
20 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Witness C, what do you understand when you hear
21 the notion "Chetnik songs"?
22 A. It reminds me of all the terrible things that I experienced during
23 the war in 1992. It also reminds me of the Second World War and the
24 history books while I was still a student, although I think I can say that
25 the history we were taught was falsified. It was written in such a way to
1 suit those who had committed crimes, which means that it was written in
2 such a way that it suited to those who did -- who committed crimes in the
3 Second World War. Whatever I hear the word "Chetnik" and when I have to
4 use it, and I have to say this here, I mean, I have to use this term here,
5 but it is actually hard for me to use this word, and also it is hard for
6 me to hear it being said, especially when I remember my stay in the camp,
7 my detention in the camp. And when I remember their songs which they used
8 to sing while playing with our bodies -- while dancing on our bodies,
9 while hitting us detainees, because very often, they forced us detainees
10 to sing Chetnik songs, threatening that they would kill us if we did not
11 obey. So we had to sing, all of us together, these Chetnik songs. And
12 they, those very same Chetniks, laughed at our singing, although we were
13 made to sing their songs, Chetnik songs.
14 Later on, they made fun of us. They mistreated us, and they
15 shouted at us, saying that we knew how to sing their songs, that we were
16 able to sing their songs, although we didn't know them. But we had to
17 learn them; we had to learn their songs whether we liked it or not and to
18 sing them. Psychologically, this was very difficult, almost impossible,
19 because apart from all other mistreatments, we were also abused
20 psychologically. I think we all suffer consequences from our detention in
21 the camp, not only physically but also psychologically, consequences which
22 are here to stay for as long as we live. I don't think it is necessary
23 for me to go into details describing my own personal consequences in terms
24 of health and also psychological consequences. Thank you, Your Honours.
25 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Though evidently it's --
1 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, Your Honour.
2 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Though evidently it's the hated issue, these
3 Chetnik songs, do you remember the one or the other text or title of these
5 A. It's hard to remember, because this reminds me of the Omarska
6 camp, and it's very hard for me. Yet, I can just tell you a few words, to
7 the best of my recollection, because I endeavoured to delete the songs
8 that we had to sing from my memory. I'm trying to be rid of it, and I'm
9 doing my best to forget it for my own reasons and for reasons of health.
10 But let me tell you a sentence. I may be wrong in quoting it. I may be
11 wrong. Maybe I would need more time at home to sit down and to remind
12 myself of those verses and to note them down. But I'm going to say, as I
13 promised, what I remember, and I quote: "From Serbia to Ravna Gore there
14 are guards of General Draza" and so on and so forth. There's a lot more
15 to come and follow. I've already given you the reasons for my inability
16 to tell you everything, but -- because after all, this was ten years ago.
17 One can't remember everything in view of the torture experienced in those
19 Just now, just now I can't remember any other songs. Maybe later
20 on. But it's not that important. When I go outside, when I leave this
21 courtroom. Thank you.
22 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: I understand that it's difficult to remember,
23 not only because it's ten years ago, but can you probably remember the one
24 or other concrete situation when you were forced to sing Chetnik songs?
25 A. Yes. We were forced. I was among the other detainees in the
1 white house in the Omarska camp. When we reached Omarska and the white
2 house, they forced us to sing those songs. And they trod on us also when
3 we were being transported by buses from the Omarska camp towards the
4 Manjaca camp. We were also forced to sing Chetnik songs. Similarly, in
5 the buses. Once we reached Manjaca, that first night that we spent in the
6 buses, we were also forced to sing these Chetnik songs then.
7 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Thank you. Let us now turn to a totally
8 different question. You discussed this morning the arrival of
9 helicopters. How could you recognise the helicopters, and could you
10 identify people from these helicopters, for example, by uniforms?
11 A. I could recognise those helicopters on the basis of their colour.
12 That colour was dark green or olive-green/grey that was also used in the
13 former JNA. Such helicopters were in the possession of the former JNA,
14 and they had a red five-cornered star on them. The people who were in the
15 helicopter I could not recognise because those helicopters fly over
16 quickly, and it is impossible to recognise a face or a uniform. One can
17 only notice human figures in the helicopter with helmets on their heads,
18 which means that they were pilots flying the helicopters. And on their
19 heads, they had pilots' -- I don't know what word to use. I said helmets
20 or something to that -- like that. Which covered their heads and ears as
22 Anyway, every pilot wore something like that in a helicopter,
23 regardless of the assignment he was on.
24 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Thank you. May we now go in private session,
25 because I have to mention some names.
1 [Private session]
13 Page 2383 – redacted – private session
13 Page 2384 – redacted – private session
13 Page 2385 – redacted – private session
1 [Open session]
2 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Witness C, do you remember the name of the
3 commander in Manjaca?
4 A. I don't know the name of the commander of the Manjaca camp.
5 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Once again, does it ring a bell when I mention
6 the word "Spaga"?
7 A. Yes. That is familiar. It was the nickname of that man.
8 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Can you give us some more details about this
9 Spaga? What did you hear from him? Was there any special relationship
10 between him and guards? What can you remember?
11 A. This person known as Spaga, whose name I don't know, was the
12 leader of the guards at the Manjaca camp, which means that the guards were
13 subordinated to him. The word "Spaga" itself means something in Bosnian.
14 But he was something quite different from what his nickname stood for. He
15 was extremely brutal. And when we heard his name or when we learned that
16 Spaga was coming, we all had to seek refuge in the stable. Nobody dared
17 utter a word. If he were to enter the stable accompanied by a guard, all
18 of us had to get up, following orders, and to stand to attention. And we
19 stood like that for as long as he wished, until he had gone to the end of
20 the stable and back to the door. And when he left, we were still
21 standing, while he walked up and down. And while he was walking up and
22 down, we didn't dare utter a word or make a sound or move. He could hit
23 whoever he wanted to. It was up to his whim. There was nothing we could
24 do about it. It was his personal choice. And only once he left the
25 stable, if we got the appropriate command from the guard, then we could
1 sit down. And this standing would last for hours. People would faint.
2 They couldn't stand -- remain standing for so long. They were starved.
3 So this had very bad effect upon us. People would faint. You would just
4 hear the thud when someone fell down, but you didn't dare turn around to
5 look and see who it was.
6 If they were to notice you turning around, then you would get a
7 good hiding. As for Spaga and his appearance, he was tall, quite well
8 built. He had a powerful voice. He liked to yell and shout at us. And
9 as I said, if somebody were to say "Spaga's coming," we would all fall
10 silent and everybody would have to get up and wait and see what would
11 happen. We were waiting to see what would happen. There would be
12 frequent searches in the stable. We all had to be lined up outside the
13 stables, and they would enter the guards and check and search everything
14 inside where we were held. They would check all our beds where we lay and
15 where we would spend the night. Those beds, I use that word, "bed,"
16 though it wasn't really a bed. It was just the ground, the concrete
17 floor, and some grass and dried ferns that had dried after some time. So
18 in fact, we were lying on the concrete, the stone, the earth.
19 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Witness C, this morning, you mentioned the
20 commander of Manjaca delivering a speech -- sorry that I quote it just
21 from the top of my head -- saying "if those who will return, they will be
22 killed." Was this commander identical with Spaga?
23 A. No.
24 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: This means that there was another commander?
25 A. Yes. There was the camp commander, the commander of the whole of
1 Manjaca camp. He was superior to Spaga, to the man known as Spaga and all
2 the others. He was the commander -- the main commander of the Manjaca
3 camp. And I even think that he had the rank of colonel, as far as I can
4 remember, judging by the stories among the detainees. Probably, and that
5 is also a fact, he was an active-duty officer of the former JNA, which
6 means he was an active-duty officer before the war in the former JNA.
7 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Do you know the name or nickname of this person?
8 A. Unfortunately, I don't.
9 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: And I'm sorry, I have to come back to two
10 concrete dates, because when revisiting the transcripts, there was some
11 confusion. Could you please once again tell us the exact dates you had to
12 spend in Omarska and you were in Manjaca.
13 A. I'll be glad to repeat those dates, because this is something you
14 can't forget easily. I arrived at the Omarska camp on the 9th of July,
15 and I was there until the 6th of August. From the 6th of August until the
16 18th of December of that same year -- and that means 1992 -- I was in the
17 Manjaca camp.
18 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Thank you.
19 At 2.04, it's just a point in the transcript, you said that: "You
20 don't remember the actual text of the document enabling your release."You
21 added: "If you are interested, I can tell you why." I'm interested.
22 Could you please tell us.
23 A. I'll be glad to, Your Honour. In my opinion, that paper contained
24 wording related to us detainees printed out, written, prepared, and
25 everything ready to be signed so that each person could individually sign
1 that piece of paper. All those documents were the same for all the
2 detainees. The reason why I could not remember the exact wording of that
3 document is, number one, that we didn't have much time to read it out. All
4 this was in great haste outside where we signed it standing up. And as
5 soon as one signed it, one had to go out through the gate, outside the
6 camp, where buses were ready and waiting.
7 A very important reason for us for signing this document was that
8 this was the only guarantee that we would be released, because without
9 that signature we couldn't leave the Manjaca camp. There would be no
10 freedom for us. At the time we were supposed to sign this, all we cared
11 about was to sign it and get out. That was our aim, which ensured for us
12 freedom and departure from that infamous camp. In brief, without a
13 signature, you couldn't leave, there would be no freedom. And on this
14 piece of paper, I assume it said if any one of us were to return -- or
15 rather, that particular person who signed this document, if that person
16 were to be arrested and caught on the ground, within the territory of the
17 so-called Serbian Krajina, without further ado, he would be killed. And
18 he would not have a chance of coming to the camp again. So, by summary
19 procedure, no camp; only death. Short and sweet. And that is the reason
20 why we had to sign it. If we wanted to leave the camp, we had no other
21 choice. That was the only choice we had at the time. I think, and I
22 hope, that you will understand the reason for me acting in this way, as
23 well as for all the other detainees who signed that strange so-called
25 That was unforeseeable for us. This was -- I can freely put it
1 that way. It was blackmail by them so that we would not return to
2 Bosnia-Herzegovina. That is also proof that there was ethnic cleansing. I
3 hope that you will accept what I have said. So this was a kind of ethnic
4 cleansing, together with the other things that happened in
5 Bosnia-Herzegovina, throughout the duration of that war.
6 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Thank you.
7 Judge Vassylenko, please.
8 JUDGE VASSYLENKO: Thank you. Witness C, can you be more specific
9 in regard of the Chetniks. Do you have any idea about the composition of
10 those armed and/or uniformed persons referred to by yourself as "the
11 Chetniks"? Did they belong to the JNA, police, or security personnel, or
12 they were paramilitaries?
13 A. You see, Your Honour, as regard the term itself "the Chetniks,"
14 because a moment ago, this morning, I testified about this, I consider to
15 be the Chetniks, the former members of the JNA, because they were the
16 former members of the JNA after that they were no longer members of the
17 JNA but became Chetniks. I also consider members of the police force to
18 be Chetniks, and I also consider paramilitaries to be Chetniks regardless
19 of how they were actually called, these paramilitary forces. Sometimes
20 they were called after a commander who was their leader. I don't think I
21 need to illustrate this with any example. I think that the situation is
22 very well known, even outside Bosnia and Herzegovina. But I should like
23 to focus on the territory of Bosnia and Herzegovina. So in short, I
24 considered to be Chetniks all of them, although members of the former JNA,
25 before the war, before the conflict in Slovenia, Croatia, and Bosnia, were
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 members of the military, members of the army which represented all ethnic
2 groups of the former Yugoslavia. However, they betrayed the people. They
3 attacked that very same people, or rather, peoples, who had financed them,
4 who had armed them, this former JNA, which had been armed by the peoples
5 of the former Yugoslavia. We all contribute -- made contributions for
6 this former JNA, but they turned their backs to the Bosniak people and the
7 Croatian people, and they sided with the Serb people. And they
8 participated in the ethnic cleansing, in the killings, the persecutions,
9 plunders, and rapes, in the creation of concentration camps.
10 JUDGE VASSYLENKO: But the personnel in the camp who treated you
11 personally, did they belong to the army, to the police, or they were
13 A. They belonged to the army, but also to the police force.
14 JUDGE VASSYLENKO: Thank you. And one more question: As far as I
15 understand, nobody informed you formally and officially about the titles,
16 positions, and names of the commanders and shift commanders of the Omarska
17 and Keraterm camps?
18 A. As far as the Keraterm camp is concerned, I don't know what titles
19 they had, the guards. You probably mean what kind of ranks they had. The
20 same goes for the Omarska camp; I'm not familiar with their ranks or
21 titles, military ranks, titles, or what they were called. Likewise, I
22 don't know about police ranks either.
23 JUDGE VASSYLENKO: And do you know who were in command and control
24 of the commanders and personnel of the camps? Or, in other words, who was
25 the superiors of those commanders and shift commanders?
1 A. Camp commanders. The shift commanders were superior to the camp
2 commanders [sic]. The guards were responsible to the shift commanders.
3 JUDGE VASSYLENKO: But whom were -- the commanders and shift
4 commanders of the camp, whom were they subordinated? Who were their
5 superior? Do you have any idea about the names, titles, positions of
6 those persons?
7 A. Camp commanders were responsible to the political party, the SDS,
8 and other municipal authorities. Also, to the police authorities up to
9 the mayor of the municipality. The commander of the military, who were
10 superior to the Banja Luka authorities, and the Banja Luka authorities
11 were responsible to the Pale authorities, and so on and so forth.
12 JUDGE VASSYLENKO: Do you know the names of the representatives,
13 highest representatives, of those authorities?
14 A. As regards the names, some of them are widely known. The civilian
15 authorities who conducted all of these operations were located in Banja
16 Luka. As for the main body of the civilian authority, they were located
17 at Pale and led by Karadzic. The military authorities were also there,
18 and their leader was Mladic.
19 JUDGE VASSYLENKO: And what about Prijedor municipality? What is
20 the relationship between Banja Luka and Prijedor and the camps?
21 A. As regards Prijedor, the municipality of Prijedor was in contact
22 with the municipality of Banja Luka which had the overall control over the
23 activities that were going on in Prijedor. Because the Prijedor
24 authorities were subordinate to the authorities in Banja Luka. And Banja
25 Luka was subordinate to Pale.
1 JUDGE VASSYLENKO: Did you have an ID when you were detained in
2 Omarska and Keraterm camps? Identification card, I mean.
3 A. No. I didn't have anything with me.
4 JUDGE VASSYLENKO: Have you been called by your name when summoned
5 for beatings and interrogations?
6 A. Yes, I was called out by my name and surname. When I was called
7 out to go for interrogation, and also to be taken out for beatings. In
8 any case, they had the names of all of the detainees. They had lists with
9 names of the people who were detained in those camps.
10 JUDGE VASSYLENKO: Thank you. And how detainees were selected for
11 beatings and interrogations?
12 A. I cannot say much about how they were selected. I know that they
13 had lists of names with them, and they read out the names from those lists
14 and called people out, which doesn't mean that they called people out in
15 order from those lists. They would call out whoever they thought they
16 knew by name and surname. That person would usually be the first one to
17 be called out. And then, others were also called, but they called people
18 out according to their wishes, at their whim, according to some kind of
19 decision that they must have reached.
20 JUDGE VASSYLENKO: And the last question: Did you receive any
21 documents when you were released from the Manjaca camp?
22 A. When I was released from the Manjaca camp, I did not receive any
23 personal document, because I did not have any such document in the Manjaca
24 camp. Whatever I had was taken away from me in the Keraterm camp.
25 JUDGE VASSYLENKO: Thank you, Witness C.
1 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Witness C, just to give you the possibility
2 either to correct or to confirm what you said, at 15.18, you said: "The
3 shift commanders were superior to the camp commanders." Did you really
4 wanted to say this?
5 A. It must have been a grammatical error if I said "superior." It
6 was the camp commanders who were superior to shift commanders. You know,
7 it's easy to confuse these two words, superior and subordinate, and that
8 probably caused the confusion and the misunderstanding. I hope Your
9 Honours will understand. I must admit that sometimes my concentration
10 fails me when it comes to these technical terms, superior, subordinate.
11 So I must have confused the two words. Please accept my apologies once
13 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Thank you. One final question: What was the
14 role of the Red Cross in Manjaca? And was it the International Red Cross
15 or the local Red Cross?
16 A. The role of the International Red Cross at Manjaca -- and I
17 emphasise, the International Red Cross, not the local Red Cross
18 organisation -- was, first of all, to assist us not to starve to death,
19 not to freeze to death. Sometimes, it snows even in September at Manjaca.
20 So that was mainly the role of the International Red Cross, to provide us
21 with some food, some clothes, blankets so that we would not freeze to
22 death. However, despite their efforts, we were still hungry and cold,
23 although at one point in time, we did start receiving this aid that I
24 mentioned. If it wasn't for this aid, I don't know how many people would
25 leave Manjaca alive and not leave their bones there. So the role of the
1 International Red Cross was to try and find a way out for us, to find some
2 solution for our situation so that we would be able to leave this infamous
3 Manjaca camp. For us, it was a very slow and lengthy process. We didn't
4 know what would happen.
5 But in the end, we were told the good news, that is, that we would
6 be taken elsewhere. However, all this information was not reliable. It
7 was only once we were put on the buses, assisted by the representatives of
8 the International Red Cross, that we realised that it was true, actually
9 that what we had been told several days before, maybe a week before that,
10 that is, that we would leave the Manjaca camp. As I said, it was only at
11 that point in time that we realised that it was true, that we would be
12 released. However, we still didn't know what our final destination would
13 be. We had problems in Croatia as well when we changed buses. However,
14 everything came to a happy end, and we ended up in Karlovac.
15 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Thank you. May, finally, the usher please
16 present to the witness, not on the ELMO, please, and in a way that the
17 name of Witness B is redacted, Exhibit S12.
18 Witness C, have you ever seen such a document?
19 A. No, I haven't.
20 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: I thank you for fairness. It's the question,
21 any other questions from the Defence or from the OTP? First, the Defence
22 has a right.
23 MR. LUKIC: We don't have any further questions, Your Honour.
24 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Thank you.
25 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, I have no further questions. But I
1 have a request to make. This witness has agreed to testify in the
2 Brdjanin/Talic case, and we would seek to disclose his transcript to the
3 Defence and the accused in that case. And I would ask, including the
4 private session testimony, that the witness has given to the Defence and
5 the accused in the Brdjanin/Talic case, and I would ask for an order that
6 we be allowed to do that under the same conditions as in this case.
7 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Objections?
8 MR. LUKIC: We have no objections, Your Honour.
9 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Then it be ordered.
10 MS. SUTHERLAND: Thank you, Your Honour.
11 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Then thank you once again, Witness C, for this
12 long, but detailed testimony. And as it is said here, you are excused
13 now. Thank you.
14 [The witness withdrew]
15 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: We resume at 3.50.
16 --- Recess taken at 3.33 p.m.
17 --- On resuming at 3.54 p.m.
18 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: May we now immediately turn to expert witness
19 Dr. Donia, please. May Dr. Donia be brought in immediately, or any other
20 problems before?
21 MR. CAYLEY: Yes, good afternoon, Mr. President. If you wish the
22 witness be brought in, he can be. I'm not sure he's absolutely necessary
23 unless any particular questions arise.
24 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: There is one particular question, unfortunately.
25 MR. CAYLEY: The witness is waiting outside, Your Honour.
1 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Therefore, it would be extremely good to have
2 him right now.
3 MR. CAYLEY: Just for the purposes of the record, Mr. President,
4 my friend, Mr. Koumjian, has reminded me, Ms. Sutherland is not behind the
5 Prosecution Bench just so it's clear that the Prosecution is composed of
6 Cayley and Koumjian.
7 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Thank you, for the record.
8 [The witness entered court]
9 WITNESS: ROBERT DONIA [Resumed]
10 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Please.
11 MR. CAYLEY: Thank you, Mr. President. Just some small background
12 matters. I had a very productive meeting with Mr. Lukic where we went
13 through all of the newspaper articles which are in the bundle of exhibits
14 with Dr. Donia and identified together those sections of the articles
15 which both parties agreed required translation. We also were able to
16 knock out of the exhibit list completely three newspaper articles, so to
17 eliminate them as exhibits in the proceedings. And I'll deal at the end
18 with how I propose administratively we should deal with that.
19 The other exhibits, the non-newspaper article exhibits, I'll go
20 through one by one. I think Mr. Ostojic may have some comments on some of
21 those, but I propose if I go through the entire list and then he at the
22 end of that process makes any objections he wants to make, that will
23 probably be the most efficient way of doing it. And of course, Mr.
24 President, intervene at any point which you wish to clarify anything.
25 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Could we please go through the entire file
1 number by number, and then make the necessary decisions.
2 You have all the document S12 before you?
3 MR. CAYLEY: Not every single exhibit in the series is in the --
4 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: In the order, we have first of all the excerpts
5 from the newspapers, Exhibit SK1. Not needed?
6 MR. CAYLEY: That we would ask for admission into evidence,
7 please, Mr. President.
8 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: And please, immediate reaction from the side of
9 the Defence.
10 MR. LUKIC: Your Honour, we agreed what should be translated
11 regarding those newspaper articles. But still, we have the same reserves
12 and objections in regard of the authenticity of those documents. So I
13 think that it should be dealt the same way as we dealt before with these
14 type of documents.
15 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Did you need something from SK1 for your
17 MR. LUKIC: Yes, Your Honour.
18 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: And it's marked in a way that it's
19 understandable for translation?
20 MR. CAYLEY: Yes. Sorry, Mr. Lukic, excuse me. Both parties,
21 Honour, have marked their own exhibit with a highlighter so what we
22 propose to do is Ms. Karper will collate the two sets of highlighted
23 document and submit that to the translation department, and then both
24 parties will get back the relevant parts.
25 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: And the Office of the Prosecutor, thanks you to
1 note will take care of the translations, not take care but provide it with
2 the assistance of the translators. So as regards admissability of
3 evidence, I understand your point. But please, remember our general
4 guidelines on the admissibility of evidence and that we take the documents
5 as a sheet of paper. And the admission of -- into evidence doesn't mean
6 that we have decided on the authenticity whatsoever. We'll have a look on
7 these documents, and, please, be aware that there will be no prejudice,
8 especially not for the Defence. The first source, is of course, the
9 witness statement, the expert statement, and please, don't misunderstand
10 me, Dr. Donia. It forms part of a footnote, and it's limited in how far
11 we need the entire documents. So I can see both parties want, in part,
12 SK1 admitted into evidence.
13 What about 2?
14 MR. CAYLEY: Yes, Mr. President, we would ask for that to be
15 admitted into evidence and the relevant parts that both parties --
16 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: The relevant parties are admitted. And
17 "relevant parties" means what's agreed between the parties.
18 And 3?
19 MR. CAYLEY: Yes, Your Honour.
20 MR. LUKIC: Yes.
21 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: The relevant parties admitted into evidence by
22 as pointed out by both parties. And 4?
23 MR. CAYLEY: Yes, Your Honour.
24 MR. LUKIC: Yes, Your Honour.
25 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: 5?
1 MR. CAYLEY: Yes, Your Honour.
2 MR. LUKIC: We don't need this one.
3 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: You demonstrate the special relevance of this
5 MR. CAYLEY: I think it's probably best if you ask Dr. Donia that
6 question, Your Honour.
7 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Thank you. That's the reason why we have the
8 privilege to have you here this afternoon.
9 THE WITNESS: This was -- Mr. President, this was simply cited in
10 my paper as evidence of the activity of the municipal assembly in doing
11 business other than arguing about the positions on the -- within the
12 government. There was only one short paragraph at the bottom of the
13 left-hand column that I felt was appropriate to cite and have translated.
14 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: And this would say? If you could here just read
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] "Report on budget, on the budget of
17 the municipality for last year, was adopted without discussion, but two
18 commissions were formed consisting of representatives of the parties which
19 will, in cooperation with the society, examine the use of funds and the
20 documents on the basis of which certain decisions were taken, especially
21 with respect to the redistribution or rebalancing of the budget."
22 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Thank you. Does the OTP insist?
23 MR. CAYLEY: Yes, Your Honour, because it's a footnote.
24 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please. Microphone, Mr. Cayley.
25 MR. CAYLEY: I'll repeat what I said because I didn't have my
1 microphone on. Yes, because the witness is referring to it in a footnote,
2 so we believe it's relevant.
3 [Trial Chamber confers]
4 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Not admitted into evidence. And we delete this,
5 and we know about the alleged fact as it was quoted already in the
6 document and in the expert statement. And therefore, we don't need it.
7 But for the purpose of clarity, we continue with 6 and don't start
9 So 6, needed, not needed?
10 MR. CAYLEY: Yes, Your Honour.
11 MR. LUKIC: We found nothing in this document as well, Your
12 Honour. So we don't need it.
13 THE WITNESS: This is simply one sentence from this document in
14 the fourth session of the assembly, it's the next-to-last paragraph. If
15 you'd like me to read it.
16 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Please.
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] "There were increasingly frequent
18 deputy questions. In answer to a question by Music on the dispute over
19 the deployment of personnel in state institutions and companies, the
20 answer was that the coordination was rather slow, and that the whole
21 process would be completed by next session -- by next week. [In English]
22 I'm sorry.
23 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Couldn't we regard this as -- this quoted
24 sentence as a part of the expert witness statement? And therefore, delete
1 MR. CAYLEY: Yes, Your Honour. I mean, Your Honour, what worries
2 me is that the witness is actually --
3 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: We go fast, fast, fast.
4 MR. CAYLEY: My question is if that is your view for all of them
5 where the Defence don't wish to have any section translated, but you
6 accept it's a composite part of the report, then I can say yes to its
7 nonadmittance if that's what you're stating.
8 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Yes. So 6 not admitted into evidence. We
9 proceed to 7.
10 MR. CAYLEY: Yes.
11 MR. LUKIC: Yes.
12 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Admitted, as far as the parties agree as SK7.
14 MR. CAYLEY: Yes.
15 MR. LUKIC: Yes.
16 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Admitted, as it was said before as SK8. SK9 is
17 admitted into evidence for reasons we discussed before.
18 MR. CAYLEY: Yes.
19 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: 10?
20 MR. CAYLEY: Yes.
21 MR. LUKIC: Yes.
22 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: As it was said before, the parts referred to by
23 the parties admitted into evidence.
25 MR. CAYLEY: Yes.
1 MR. LUKIC: Yes.
2 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Admitted into evidence. Then we come already to
3 12. The entire compilation 12, before we have too much debates on this,
4 couldn't the parties agree that it gives limited impression of that what
5 has happened and what has not happened, of the presence and the absence of
6 persons in these meetings?
7 MR. OSTOJIC: Good afternoon, Your Honour. I'm not sure if the
8 question is directed to the Defence. Respectfully -- thank you. I
9 gathered that, but I just wasn't sure. Respectfully, we do not agree, and
10 we can elaborate, although not exhaustively elaborate but we can give you
11 an outline as to why we believe at least in some instances the documents
12 that are purportedly relied upon and submitted as exhibits under Tab
13 Number 12 should not be admitted into evidence, if the Court permits.
14 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Please, if it's short. Why not?
15 MR. OSTOJIC: I think it is. I'll try to make it short. In
16 essence, Your Honour, it you look at Tab Number 12, there are 41 separate
17 and distinct documents that purport to be minutes taken by someone at
18 times an unknown individual, at other times unsigned and undated. Out of
19 those 41 documents, Your Honour, 26 do not mention, reference, or identify
20 the accused Dr. Stakic. Without going into the procedural and background
21 of this -- both this Tribunal and the rights of all accused where the
22 presumption of innocence is truly one that not only is to be discussed but
23 is one that is to be --
24 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: May I just interrupt you, and I'm sorry for
25 being impatient here. Isn't it a point in favour of your client, and
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 isn't it necessary whenever it should come to a judgment also to point
2 out, as I mentioned before, the absence of Dr. Stakic? How can we find
3 out if we don't have this as evidence?
4 MR. OSTOJIC: Well, it's a good point Your Honour, and quite
5 frankly I can share with you, the burden of proof however is on the Office
6 of the Prosecutor. We believe, based on the documents they have provided
7 thus far, with the exclusion of a witness that we're going to talk about
8 later, that they did not make any nexus with all the documents that they
9 have produced in addition to the documents that we're hoping to exclude.
10 We just don't want and we're very, very fearful, and we say this most
11 respectfully to the Chamber as a whole, to its assistants as well, that
12 when we documents when looked upon and when read in the order they were
13 presented may distort the true picture as to what was occurring there. If
14 this Tribunal and the Chamber respectfully examines the documents only
15 where Dr. Stakic was present, I think you'll find that Dr. Stakic --
16 again, I don't want to argue on a 98 bis motion, but they did not meet any
17 threshold of proof much less that beyond the reasonable doubt with Dr.
18 Stakic's involvement in Prijedor and some of the atrocities that occurred
19 there. Again, this Court is instructing me on some of the
20 cross-examination and others as well, that we should keep it confined to
21 the date of the indictment, the date of the indictment or the charges
22 against Dr. Stakic go from April 30th to September 30th, 1992. Some of
23 these documents date as early as March 20th, 1991. We have the background
24 that was provided to us by Dr. Donia. We hope to provide some of that
25 background with our witnesses and experts, as well as other witnesses,
1 perhaps, that the OTP will call.
2 So we would ask that those documents that do not mention,
3 especially the early documents starting from the last four numbers of
4 their ERN number 6343 all the way through 6380, be respectfully excluded.
5 Initially, that would be my request.
6 MR. CAYLEY: Mr. President, am I permitted to make any
7 representation or not?
8 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Of course.
9 MR. CAYLEY: I think, in essence, one has to look at this
10 particular document in the light of Dr. Donia's report. He relied on all
11 of these documents in the report. You are the Judges. You make an
12 evaluation on the weight of this evidence. And even if, on occasion, Dr.
13 Stakic was not actually personally present at these meetings, the views,
14 the positions expressed in these minutes are those of the Serbian
15 democratic party in Prijedor of which he was a member. Equally, in terms
16 of the timing of the indictment, Dr. Donia was specifically brought here
17 as a witness to give you his opinion on the background, the leadup, to the
18 specific charged events in Prijedor. That is something that you must know
19 about as Judges to make any kind of reasonable deliberation in this case.
20 And lastly, I would remind the Court, although I don't think it's
21 necessary to do so, we are not in a strictly adversial Court. We are in a
22 Court where the rules specify that all evidence, all evidence, is
23 admissible unless its probative value is outweighed by prejudice. Mr.
24 Ostojic, as I said before, is not addressing a jury; he is addressing
25 three professional Judges. I think it is for you to accept this document
1 in its entirety and to make your judgment on the weight of the document in
2 accordance with what you stated earlier, Mr. President, acknowledging that
3 he is not present at all of the meetings and acknowledging that this is
4 not a document that anybody could argue is a hundred per cent
5 comprehensive, but then little evidence that is ever presented in a single
6 document in trials before this Court is. That is a simple reality. Thank
8 [Trial Chamber confers]
9 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: The entire chapter 12, SK12, is admitted into
10 evidence, as it was pointed out in the guidelines, that indeed, we have to
11 apply the rule of free evaluation of evidence, and this brings us to
12 decide in favour of admissibility, as the rule and the mere admission of
13 the document into evidence does not in itself signify that the statements
14 contained therein will necessarily be deemed to be an accurate portrayal
15 of the facts.
16 May we now turn to the following, 13.
17 MR. CAYLEY: Yes, Your Honour.
18 MR. LUKIC: Yes, Your Honour.
19 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Admitted as regarded relevant by the parties.
21 MR. CAYLEY: Yes, Your Honour.
22 MR. LUKIC: Yes, Your Honour.
23 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Admitted, as regarded relevant by the parties.
24 SK 15?
25 MR. CAYLEY: Yes, Your Honour.
1 MR. LUKIC: Yes, Your Honour.
2 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Admitted, in the limits mentioned before SK15.
4 MR. CAYLEY: Yes, Your Honour.
5 MR. LUKIC: Yes, Your Honour.
6 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: SK16 admitted. SK17?
7 MR. CAYLEY: Yes, Your Honour.
8 MR. LUKIC: Yes, Your Honour.
9 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Admitted. SK18. Here we have SK18 and 18B.
11 MR. OSTOJIC: Yes, Your Honour. Same as previously -- same
12 objection. It is unsigned, as the Court will note but I think we raised
13 that with most of the other 41 or so documents that fell within the prior
14 tag 12 that we discussed.
15 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Admitted into evidence as SK18 A and SK18 B.
16 MR. OSTOJIC: Same objection, Your Honour.
17 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: 19 A and 19 B, yeah.
18 MR. OSTOJIC: Same objection, Your Honour.
19 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Admitted as SK19A, 19B.
21 MR. OSTOJIC: Same objection, Your Honour.
22 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: This is --
23 MR. CAYLEY: Sorry, we're back to newspapers.
24 MR. OSTOJIC: Back to newspapers. Sorry, withdraw that objection.
25 MR. CAYLEY: Yes, Your Honours.
1 MR. LUKIC: Yes, Your Honour.
2 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Admitted, as far as regarded relevant by the
3 parties as SK20.
4 What about SK21?
5 MR. CAYLEY: Yes, Your Honour.
6 MR. LUKIC: Yes, Your Honour.
7 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Admitted into evidence SK21, in the limits.
9 MR. CAYLEY: Yes, Your Honour.
10 MR. LUKIC: Yes, Your Honour.
11 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Admitted in the limits, SK22.
13 MR. CAYLEY: Yes, Your Honour.
14 MR. LUKIC: Yes, Your Honour.
15 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Admitted in the limits, SK23.
17 MR. CAYLEY: Yes, Your Honour.
18 MR. LUKIC: We don't see anything in this document, Your Honour.
19 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Please demonstrate the relevance of this
21 THE WITNESS: I must say this simply repeats in the press what was
22 already recorded in the SDS minutes in Prijedor.
23 MR. CAYLEY: We won't press for this to be admitted, Mr.
25 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Not admitted into evidence.
2 MR. CAYLEY: Yes, Your Honour.
3 MR. LUKIC: Yes, Your Honour.
4 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Admitted in the limits mentioned before as SK25.
5 Now, we turn to a document, first a translation, and then, excerpt
6 from newspaper. Could you explain, please.
7 MR. CAYLEY: SK26, again, Your Honour is a newspaper article which
8 I believe Mr. Lukic -- no, nothing?
9 MR. LUKIC: This is translated, so we didn't discuss about this
10 one at all. I didn't go through it.
11 MR. CAYLEY: If, Dr. Donia, you could explain why this is
12 relevant, 26.
13 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: We can make it short. Of course, we discussed
14 it beforehand and waited for your comments on this. We intend, if there
15 is no major objection, to admit this into evidence.
16 No objection. Admitted into evidence SK26A, 26B.
18 MR. CAYLEY: 27 and 28 we withdraw, Your Honour.
19 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Thank you.
20 29. It's a bunch of four pages.
21 MR. CAYLEY: Yes, Your Honour.
22 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Why the four pages?
23 MR. CAYLEY: Because I think it's part of the same newspaper much
24 but we're not asking for all of it to be admitted. Again, it's just
25 selections that have been selected. I'm not sure that Mr. Lukic has
1 anything that he wanted translated in this one.
2 MR. LUKIC: The reason why is because I couldn't read it because
3 it's pretty unreadable.
4 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Dr. Donia, can you help us?
5 THE WITNESS: Yes, Mr. President, this is simply a report on the
6 mobilisation ordered on the 30th of September, 1991, and the Presidency of
7 Bosnia-Herzegovina's decision to declare it illegal. I will be glad to
8 read it if you wish. I believe it's legible.
9 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Which part of the four pages?
10 THE WITNESS: The first page only.
11 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: The first page only. We can already delete the
12 three other pages, right?
13 THE WITNESS: With pleasure, yes.
14 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Our pleasure. If you could, please, read it
16 THE WITNESS: Just have, I think, two paragraphs in the first --
17 top article.
18 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: [No audible response]
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] "The Presidency of the Socialist
20 Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina has asked the Presidency of SFRY and the
21 military authorities to replace Lieutenant-Colonel Nikola Zeric [phoen].
22 Yesterday, a session of the Presidency of Bosnia-Herzegovina was held,
23 chaired by Alija Izetbegovic at which a report of the Crisis Staff was
24 reviewed on the situation in the republic. And the position of the
25 Presidency regarding the invitation to tomorrow's session of the
1 Presidency of the SFRY. It was concluded that, one, the mobilisation
2 proclaimed yesterday in Bosanska Krajina is not legal because it had not
3 been ordered by the body empowered to do so by the constitution. The
4 Presidency warns citizens that -- the Presidency reminds the citizens of
5 their right and duty not to respond to such a mobilisation."
6 MR. LUKIC: We have no objections Your Honour, then. We couldn't
7 read it. Now, we don't have any --
8 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: This part you read until the end of 2, is it
9 right, or --
10 THE WITNESS: Just until the end of one.
11 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Until the end of one. Can we agree that this
12 part is admitted into evidence.
13 MR. CAYLEY: Yes, Mr. President.
14 MR. LUKIC: Yes, Mr. President.
15 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: This part as we can read it now in the
16 transcript is admitted into evidence as SK29B. We don't have an A. The A
17 is in the transcript.
19 MR. CAYLEY: Yes, Mr. President.
20 MR. LUKIC: Yes, Your Honour.
21 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Admitted in the limits mentioned before as SK30.
23 MR. CAYLEY: Yes. And I think Mr. Ostojic will wish to represent
24 his objection.
25 MR. OSTOJIC: Same objection, Your Honour.
1 [Trial Chamber confers]
2 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Admitted into evidence as 31A and 31B.
4 MR. CAYLEY: Yes, Your Honour.
5 MR. LUKIC: We don't see anything in this document, Your Honour.
6 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Again, Dr. Donia, could you please help us.
7 THE WITNESS: Yes. I cited this article because I included in the
8 text of the report the desertion of 200 Prijedor -- soldiers from Prijedor
9 from the war front in Croatia. And in three sentences here, that story is
10 very briefly told.
11 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Can you show us where these three sentences are,
12 and can you read them out, please.
13 THE WITNESS: Yes. I'll just read the kicker, the part above the
14 headline which says: [Interpretation] "Following the desertion of 300 men
15 from Prijedor, from positions in Lipik and Pakrac." [In English] The
16 first sentence of the article is: [Interpretation] "Two days ago, a number
17 of newspapers and radio stations carried the report on the desertion of
18 300 men from Prijedor from positions around Lipik and Pakrac. " [In
19 English] And down about 15 lines, Mr. President, is a sentence that begins
20 in the middle of the paragraph: [Interpretation] "It is true that the
21 fault is not only on the part of the guys who held this barricade, but
22 also their leaders who will be stripped of their ranks."
23 [In English] And then just one sentence below the box about 12
24 lines: [Interpretation] "We offered them to stay at the front and to be
25 transferred to the rear, if in that way they were to save face and avoid
1 military court martial, but they rejected this."
2 MR. LUKIC: We don't have major objections, only we don't see the
3 relevance. Whatever you decide, Your Honour.
4 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: So the three parts from this article on the
5 left-hand side as marked are admitted into evidence as 32B. The English
6 translation will be found in the transcript.
8 MR. CAYLEY: Yes, Your Honour.
9 MR. LUKIC: We also don't see anything in this document, Your
11 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Dr. Donia.
12 THE WITNESS: This is a brief report on the shooting into the air
13 that was done by reservists as they returned from the front in late
15 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Is it really of that importance in our case?
16 THE WITNESS: I don't find it riveting and I don't think it's
17 essential as --
18 MR. CAYLEY: Again, Mr. President, as you stated earlier, if it's
19 stated in the report and it's a particularly -- you can accept it.
20 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Not admitted into evidence.
22 MR. CAYLEY: Yes, Mr. President.
23 MR. LUKIC: I'm really sorry. We don't see anything in this
24 document either.
25 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Dr. Donia.
1 THE WITNESS: This references the same event, Mr. President, and I
2 would see --
3 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Not admitted into evidence, 34.
5 MR. CAYLEY: Yes, Mr. President.
6 MR. LUKIC: Yes, Your Honour.
7 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Admitted as SK35, in the limits mentioned
10 MR. CAYLEY: 36, Your Honour.
11 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Sorry. 36.
12 MR. CAYLEY: Would be, yes to 36.
13 MR. LUKIC: Yes.
14 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Admitted in the limits as SK36.
16 MR. CAYLEY: Yes, Your Honour.
17 MR. LUKIC: Yes, Your Honour.
18 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Admitted in the limits as SK37.
20 MR. CAYLEY: We withdraw that, Your Honour.
21 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Withdrawn. 39A and 39B. Here, indeed, before
22 we come to your comments, I have several questions. We have the Document
23 Number 96. If I may quote from the top of my head, you said something,
24 there were about 100 copies of this document, and here we have before us
25 96. We have some remarks in the Cyrillic part in handwriting, and I can't
1 really identify those parts in the translation. We have parts that are
2 underlined, and we really don't know who is the author. And additionally,
3 some parts indeed are not readable. In addition, in your report as expert
4 witness, you mentioned that in your document, variant B was struck out.
5 But in the document before me, from this 96, which has the numbering
6 00252743 on page 5, I can't see this striking out of variant B.
7 THE WITNESS: Mr. President, I believe the reference that I made
8 to the striking out of variant B was in the document from the Prijedor SDS
9 minutes in which it is stated that this document, that is, a copy of this
10 document, was being considered by the Prijedor SDS. Consequently, the
11 strikeout occurred not in this document that we're looking at now, but the
12 Prijedor SDS minutes.
13 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: So just for our understanding, it's a different
15 THE WITNESS: No, it's not a different copy. It is simply that in
16 the SDS minutes, there was a recitation of the primary points raised in
17 this document in its variant B form. I attempted to spell those
18 references out in the appendix, and the item to which you're referring
19 does, indeed, take place in the minutes of the Prijedor SDS, but not in
20 this document. And I apologise. I don't think I made that sufficiently
21 clear at the time I discussed the two documents.
22 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Thank you for this additional clarification.
23 But it remains a problem that we still have some additional remarks in
24 handwriting. And probably, it should be revisited by the translation unit
25 to that extent.
1 MR. CAYLEY: Yes, Your Honour. We can organise that.
2 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Any objections now, from the side of the Defence
3 under these circumstances? First, we get a readable copy, and second, the
4 translation will be revisited?
5 MR. OSTOJIC: Yes, Your Honour. If we have any further objections
6 on it, we would incorporate Your Honour's earlier comments made with
7 respect to that document.
8 [Trial Chamber confers]
9 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Admitted into evidence as Document SK39A and
11 What about 40?
12 MR. CAYLEY: Yes, Your Honour.
13 MR. LUKIC: Yes, Your Honour.
14 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: We have two pages. Is that true? You want
16 MR. CAYLEY: Everybody is waiting for somebody else to say
17 something. It's the second page only, isn't it, Dr. Donia?
18 THE WITNESS: Your Honour, it is the article that is only on the
19 lower half of the page. For some reason here -- I think, for reasons of
20 clarity of the small print, we went from one page to 2, but only this
21 article which is on the second page, left side, is, I think, of
22 interest --
23 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Dr. Donia.
24 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir.
25 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Good to know what we decide on, yeah?
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 MR. LUKIC: Your Honour, on the contrary, we are interested in the
2 first page, and we expressed it to Dr. Donia.
3 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Okay, which article?
4 MR. LUKIC: "How to survive, that's the question."
5 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Yes. So limited to this article.
6 MR. LUKIC: Yes.
7 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: In these limitations admitted into evidence
10 MR. OSTOJIC: We do have an objection to this document. Just to
11 highlight briefly, if the Court looks, we're not sure as to what month of
12 the year that it was, the translator clearly identifies that there are
13 some illegible words within the document, specifically in article one,
14 second line. And the translator also interpreted properly that there was
15 an illegible stamp and I believe that the signature is unknown. And I
16 think at least in this context, if I may only add, is that the dates may,
17 and we think will, become very relevant, as to when certain actions were
18 taken by certain parties and individuals. As we have said throughout the
19 commencement of this trial.
20 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Your comments, please?
21 MR. CAYLEY: Mr. President, as to the date, if you go to the
22 original version, which is in Cyrillic, but the date is very clear in the
23 first paragraph of the document, that it is in fact 17.01, 92, 17 January
24 1992. So, any uncertainty as to the date of this document that Mr.
25 Ostojic was referring to, I think is clarified there.
1 As far as the illegible stamp and signature is concerned, clearly
2 they couldn't, obviously, read the signature because often signatures
3 cannot be read, but I don't think that in and of itself should exclude
4 this document from admission.
5 [Trial Chamber confers]
6 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Admitted into evidence SK41A, SK41B.
7 MR. CAYLEY: Document 42, SK42, Your Honour, is the Prijedor annex
8 report. It's Dr. Donia's actual report. So I don't -- perhaps there is
9 an objection to that.
10 MR. OSTOJIC: No, there's no objection.
11 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Admitted into evidence, SK42.
12 MR. CAYLEY: SK43 is the report that was produced for the
13 Brdjanin/Talic case, which also comprises of almost 200 documents. And
14 having gotten used to your view on these things, Mr. President, what I
15 would propose is this: Is that we basically withdraw all the documents as
16 evidence, as exhibits, and simply offer the report in its entirety. I
17 mean, the Defence, if they wish to introduce any of the documents which
18 they find to their own interest, they can. But that is going to save an
19 awful lot of translation if we do that.
20 MR. OSTOJIC: I'm not sure if I understood my learned friend.
21 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone.
22 MR. OSTOJIC: I'm not sure if I understood my learned friend on
23 this point. We object to this document for a number of reasons, and most
24 particularly it's because we were restricted respectfully from
25 cross-examining on certain issues that were within this report that dealt
1 with the Konjic area that Dr. Donia did testify to in the Brdjanin/Talic
2 matter. So...
3 [Trial Chamber confers]
4 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Not admitted into evidence.
5 MR. CAYLEY: The next exhibit would be SK44, which is the
6 transcript of Dr. Donia's evidence in the... Mr. President, it's hard
7 work, whatever I say. I would only -- what I would say to you,
8 Mr. President, is this: I think a lot of what was contained in the report
9 that you just excluded from evidence would be extremely useful background
10 information for Your Honours which we didn't either deal with within
11 Dr. Donia's oral testimony during the proceedings last week. And I think
12 that it contains background which he wasn't able to deal with and which I
13 think would be of interest for you in considering. Also, one major
14 benefit of this, Mr. President, is that there would be a French
15 transcript. So it would not need to be translated from English into
16 French. So those would be my representations on that.
17 I think with that transcript, you would be provided with a
18 comprehensive picture of events that are relevant to what happened in
19 Prijedor but which were not either covered in his report, his annex on
20 Prijedor, or in his oral testimony.
21 MR. OSTOJIC: Same objection as earlier, Your Honour.
22 [Trial Chamber confers]
23 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Not admitted into evidence. And here, I have to
24 comment a little bit on this because probably you were absent when we
25 discussed the question of former transcript. Our principle which demands
1 highest priority is the principle of directness, and we want to rely on
2 the direct expert witness statement we had the opportunity to hear here
3 and not to refer to former statements. They may be to a certain extent
4 outdated, and the question from the Defence may arise "Why this and why
5 not other former statements from Dr. Donia?" And therefore, really, to
6 limit and not to die under the "too much information" syndrome, we cannot
7 admit this into evidence.
8 We still have 45, 46.
9 MR. CAYLEY: Yes, Your Honour. 45 -- 44 -- SK44, Tab 15, which is
10 now exhibit...
11 This, Your Honour, is now an exhibit. Mr. Ostojic, do you have
12 this in front of you? It's the command of the Bosanska Krajina volunteer
13 units. The numbers have changed. You don't have it.
14 We can distribute this. This is one exhibit from the
15 Brdjanin/Talic case that was directly referred to by Dr. Donia. I can
16 distribute copies now. The numbering system now will be slightly upset,
17 Your Honour, by the exclusion of those other documents.
18 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: We should remain with the former numbering,
19 because indeed there was a gap, 44, and this should be refilled now.
20 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, Mr. Cayley.
21 MR. CAYLEY: This would be Exhibit SK44, Your Honour, if of course
22 it's admitted, and I will hand that document out.
23 Mr. Ostojic, you wouldn't have it now because it would be in the
24 larger bundle so it would be difficult to find.
25 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Would you please explain a little bit the
1 relevance of this document.
2 MR. CAYLEY: We could let the witness do that, Your Honour.
3 THE WITNESS: Mr. President, this is actually a two-part document,
4 a cover sheet and a brief essay which is a directive to the volunteer
5 units throughout the Bosnian Krajina, which would of course include
6 Prijedor, to mobilise and volunteer in support of the JNA. It is dated
7 August 24, 1991.
8 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Objections from the Defence?
9 MR. OSTOJIC: Yes, Your Honour. Unfortunately, we do object to
10 this document. And one of the main premises or the bases of our objection
11 is that this document, we don't believe, was relied upon by Dr. Donia in
12 his annex report that he submitted on March 22nd of this year. Secondly,
13 from my brief review of this, it does say "draft translation" but I'm sure
14 that we could correct that to make sure that it would be a final version
15 of it. From this draft translation, it is difficult to make an assessment
16 as to the complete relevance of this document in connection with
17 Dr. Donia's report and opinions that he has offered here in this matter.
18 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Dr. Donia, the threshold should be a very
19 high one. Would you regard it as necessary? Give some additional
21 THE WITNESS: I do regard it as an important document in the train
22 of evidence showing the process of mobilisation in support of the JNA by
23 volunteers in the Bosnian Krajina and in Prijedor. Yes, I do.
24 [Trial Chamber confers]
25 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Admitted into evidence as SK44A, the English
1 version; 44B, the B/C/S version.
2 We come now to 45.
3 MR. OSTOJIC: We do object to this document as well, Your Honour,
4 based on the fact that on its face, the document is not signed, therefore
5 creating authenticity and veracity issues. And secondly, we can identify
6 at least from the text of the document, and perhaps I am overstating it,
7 but the print or the type print on the dates that are inserted are
8 different than the actual text of the article or the material that has
9 been provided. Again, leading us -- not to be overly suspicious, but at
10 least leading us to indicate that we might have an extremely grave problem
11 with authenticity on this issue.
12 [Trial Chamber confers]
13 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Admitted into evidence as SK45A and 45B.
14 Just for the clarification of Dr. Stakic, this, of course, does
15 not mean that to any extent the Chamber is of the opinion that this
16 document is a document signed or whatever authorised by you. We regard
17 this as a sheet of paper, and the evaluation, what it really means, will
18 be later -- will be discussed later.
19 46A, B?
20 MR. CAYLEY: These, Mr. President - in fact 46 and 47 - are part
21 of the SDS minutes that we dealt with under Exhibit 12. So I assume that
22 Mr. Ostojic will probably be making the same objection that he did in
23 respect of Exhibit 12.
24 MR. OSTOJIC: Your Honour, obviously with respect to
25 Exhibit Number 46, we did ask questions of the witness, particularly the
1 items that were referenced to Dr. Stakic. We think that's already in
2 evidence. We think that portion has been heard by the Court obviously.
3 We think it is relevant and consistent with what our position is on the
4 Defence side. With the exception of that, meaning remaining that, we must
5 be consistent with our objections and say with the exception of that
6 document, we don't have -- we do have an objection with the exception of
7 that. So I apologise.
8 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Apologies accepted. Document admitted 46A,
9 46B. And the same is true for 47, 47A and B. Right.
10 MR. CAYLEY: 48 is map of Bosnia-Herzegovina, Your Honour.
11 MR. OSTOJIC: No objection, Your Honour.
12 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Admitted.
13 MR. CAYLEY: 49 is, then, a -- two composite documents from the
14 13th of April and the 23rd of June. And again, these are SDS minutes, so
15 I think Mr. Ostojic will have the same objection as before.
16 MR. OSTOJIC: Same objection, Your Honour.
17 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Admitted.
18 MR. CAYLEY: SK50 is a letter from Ms. Korner regarding a request
19 for assistance with the case.
20 MR. OSTOJIC: No objection, Your Honour.
21 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Admitted. SK50.
22 MR. CAYLEY: And the last matter is SK51, which is a "Glas"
23 article which Mr. Lukic has had sight of. It was referred to by the
24 witness in his evidence, but we didn't have it available at the time. We
25 do now have it available.
1 [Trial Chamber and Legal Officer confer]
2 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: We may continue.
3 MR. CAYLEY: Mr. President -- excuse me.
4 MR. LUKIC: We object to this exhibit, Your Honour.
5 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Could you please comment on the relevance, Dr.
7 THE WITNESS: Yes, this article, on the second page of the upper
8 left-hand corner, reports an event that I referred to in my testimony of
9 the appointment of various members of government in the Serbian assembly
10 or municipality of Prijedor on, I think it was, the 16th of April, 1991 --
11 I'm sorry, 1992.
12 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: So it's only this article in -- on the top of
13 the left-hand side, an article signed by R. Mutic?
14 THE WITNESS: Yes. The first page was simply provided for --
15 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: So, it's limited to this article?
16 MR. CAYLEY: Yes, Mr. President.
17 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Objections?
18 MR. LUKIC: We do have the objection, Your Honour, because
19 obviously this writer or newspaper employee mixed the functions of the
20 government and the Municipal Assembly. So from this article, it's really
21 unclear what the government is and what the assembly is. So we also think
22 that it can mislead, if it's admitted into evidence.
23 [Trial Chamber confers]
24 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Under our guidelines, admitted into evidence but
25 only on the second page, the top article, from Mutic, from the newspaper
1 "Glas" of 18 of August, 1992 -- April.
2 MR. CAYLEY: Mr. President, if I may, I realise that we've gone
3 well over time, but if I could just revisit one issue with you, and I know
4 Mr. Koumjian may want to make some representations on this as well. It's
5 in respect of the evidence that you excluded, SK43, which was the report
6 from Brdjanin/Talic and the transcript. I would only I think emphasise
7 the reason why you received abbreviated evidence in this trial was because
8 of the pressure on the Office of the Prosecutor to shorten witness
9 testimony. That is why it was produced as an annex, but I would
10 emphasise, an annex to a principle report, the report of Brdjanin/Talic.
11 It is in that sense a composite part of that main report. And by
12 amputating the main part of the report, it is in very much, in many
13 respects, it's incomplete. You don't have all of the evidence before you.
14 So I would emphasise to you, I realise you have made a decision on
15 this, that for you to have a full picture, a comprehensive picture, on
16 events outside of Prijedor are relevant to this case, you should in my
17 respectful submission either admit the transcripts of that hearing from
18 the Brdjanin/Talic case or the report of which the annex is a part. And I
19 think Mr. Koumjian just spoke to me very briefly about a specific example
20 of evidence that was led in this case. I wasn't present when that
21 evidence was led, which I think will probably reflect the point that
22 masses of evidence are coming out in the courtroom through other witnesses
23 that were referred to in Dr. Donia's report in Brdjanin/Talic.
24 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Please understand that we don't want to revisit
25 questions and decisions we once made. And I do not want to come back to
1 the question in how far we really can regard the other parts as evidence,
2 stricto senso, in the very strict sense. Of course you can rely on this.
3 The Trial Chamber is interested and has to work on this. But it will
4 never form part of evidence. And we shouldn't waste our time discussing
5 in how far history can be introduced in a criminal procedure as evidence.
6 And the final decision was made. Thank you.
7 Are there any other remaining issues as regards Dr. Donia's
8 witness testimony?
9 MR. OSTOJIC: Not from the Defence, Your Honour.
10 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: I can't see any other points. Then gratefully,
11 we may excuse you. And I'm quite sure you will revisit this Tribunal also
12 in other cases, also against other persons from other ethnicities. Thank
14 THE WITNESS: Thank you, Mr. President.
15 [The witness withdrew]
16 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Now, we have an entire binder, the Donia
17 exhibits SK1 until -- correct SK50 or 51? SK51. And to avoid another
18 confusion, the entire binder will be now registered under S16, and then
19 the subparts, SK, as we have it already.
20 I'm well aware that we cannot revisit all the other remaining
21 administrative matters. To be very short, only the points really
22 necessary for today. My first question is, when does the next witness
23 arrive and which number is it?
24 MR. KOUMJIAN: The next witness is Witness 31. And that will be
25 the only witness we have available this week. The witness will take I
1 believe more than a day, but I'm not sure how long that witness will be.
2 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: But to be on the safe side, we should start
3 immediately tomorrow morning.
4 MR. KOUMJIAN: Yes.
5 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Then you had -- it was convincing that a time
6 limit of seven days would be arrived today. Please take the floor for
7 this purpose.
8 MR. KOUMJIAN: Yes. About a week ago last Thursday, Your Honour,
9 I believe made an oral order on the identification parade or lineup of a
10 witness. My office has a concern about that as far as the precedent in
11 other cases. For the reasons -- and I don't think Your Honour at this
12 time wants me to argue the motion -- but I would just point out that we
13 believe we are asking the Court under Rule 73(C) I believe it is, because
14 it would be an interlocutory appeal, because it's a matter of evidence and
15 procedure, we think it is appropriate for appeal because it does affect --
16 in looking at the Rule 73(D), the Court may look at if the issues of
17 general importance of proceedings before the Tribunal. And we believe
18 this is, because in many cases we will have witnesses coming in on many,
19 many cases talking about events that took place many years ago where
20 identification or recognition is at issue, and we think that -- our
21 position is that the type of identification procedures that are used
22 should be at the discretion of the Prosecution. I understand Your Honour
23 ruled differently, but we're asking the Court to recognise that as a
24 matter of general importance, before matters before the Tribunal so that
25 we can get one uniform decision in this Tribunal, regarding this issue.
1 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: I invite the Defence to come back to this issue
2 until Monday next week with some explicit commentaries, and it should be
3 clear to all the parties that we act under the old version. The new
4 version of the Rule 73 enters into force only the 8th of May. You
5 shouldn't be shocked when you open your email today when you find the new
6 version of 73 when you wouldn't have any possibilities any longer. But we
7 act still under the old rules as we have it before us.
8 MR. KOUMJIAN: I'm sorry. I am confused. Rule 73 has changed?
9 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Yes. Limiting the interlocutory appeals to
10 questions of jurisdiction only.
11 MR. KOUMJIAN: Okay.
12 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: But it's time enough for you.
13 MR. OSTOJIC: Yes, Your Honour.
14 MR. KOUMJIAN: Because the way I read the rule, the old rule, we
15 must get the certification within seven days. Is that correct, or not?
16 Well, we either get the certification or within seven days of the decision
17 we ask the Court of Appeal for leave. So we need tomorrow to decide
18 whether to file that motion with the Court of Appeal for leave to appeal.
19 I could file that way, while awaiting the certification.
20 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Yes.
21 MR. OSTOJIC: We can respond briefly now, Your Honour.
22 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: I have to take care of the interpreters, and
23 it's no longer possible. It is a matter of a minute? No, before we
24 start. It's an important issue, and it's no longer possible to go on. Any
25 other very urgent matters today?
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 MR. KOUMJIAN: I think actually tomorrow would be the seven days
2 if we count, so I can hold off on filing until we discuss this tomorrow
3 morning. I will prepare the motion tonight and then we can hold off on
4 filing until we discuss this tomorrow.
5 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: We should start tomorrow with the witness. The
6 witness shouldn't wait. And, in addition, as we had already 35 minutes
7 overtime -- we shouldn't start tomorrow earlier than 9.30.
8 We stay adjourned and resume tomorrow 9.30.
9 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at
10 5.05 p.m., to be reconvened on
11 Thursday, the 2nd day of May, 2002,
12 at 9.30 p.m.