1 Thursday, 13 June 2002

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 9.04 a.m.

5 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Good morning, everybody. Please be seated.

6 Could you please call our case.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning. This is Case Number IT-97-24-T, the

8 Prosecutor versus Milomir Stakic.

9 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Thank you. And the appearances, please.

10 MS. KORNER: Joanna Korner, Ann Sutherland, assisted by Ruth

11 Karper for the Prosecution.

12 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Thank you.

13 MR. LUKIC: Branko Lukic with Mr. John Ostojic for the Defence.

14 Good morning, Your Honours.

15 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: The OTP had a request regarding the trial next

16 Monday. Can you please let us know what is the newest development from

17 your point of view.

18 MS. KORNER: I think Your Honour said you would give me an answer

19 today. The situation, very briefly, is this: If Your Honours will agree,

20 for the first hour and a half to the break, to have documents read, I can

21 complete the witness-in-chief in the other Court and will come straight

22 back here. Because I can leave cross-examination to someone else. If

23 Your Honours won't agree to that, then we will have to stop the witness

24 coming who's already coming, try and interpose another witness, and let

25 the Defence know that there will be a different witness.

1 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: In which case? You said we have to stop the

2 witness coming.

3 MS. KORNER: I'm sorry, the witness who is due to return on Monday

4 who is in the middle of giving his evidence-in-chief, because clearly in I

5 can't go back to complete him at 2.00, we'll have to try and interpose

6 another witness with the consent, obviously, with the Defence and the

7 Judges.

8 Your Honour, the only reason I'm asking is I understand Your

9 Honour has been using time to read documents into the record. And as I

10 said, I can only apologise that this situation has arisen. It's not one

11 that we hope will ever arise again, and it's arisen out of a combination

12 of unfortunate circumstances.

13 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: But we had the impression that the OTP knew

14 about this problem at least since last Friday.

15 MS. KORNER: I did, yes.

16 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Our question was why couldn't we start with this

17 witness on Tuesday already? The witness before us now, Tuesday afternoon,

18 we could have started, because indeed, the preference should be given that

19 we hear an entire examination-in-chief without any break. And to a

20 certain extent, this is also a right of the Defence.

21 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, yes. I appreciate that. As I say, it

22 is unfortunate. But why the witness didn't start on Tuesday afternoon was

23 the witness was still completing his statement and his review of the

24 documents. We understood that the earlier witness was going to go the

25 full length of Tuesday. Your Honour, all, in fact, that I'm asking is

1 that, for the first hour and a half, Your Honours deal with documents, and

2 the witness will then complete his evidence-in-chief.

3 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: May we hear the observations by the Defence,

4 please.

5 MR. OSTOJIC: Good morning, Your Honours. We have no objection to

6 proceeding in a manner that will be convenient for the Court and for the

7 OTP. So whichever works for all of us.

8 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: We discussed this already this morning. We

9 heard some slightly different commentaries now. We will come back to this

10 point after the break. We also have to take into account that we have to

11 go through the motion on 92 bis statements to be introduced no later than

12 Monday, and we have to discuss whether or not, if any, there are comments

13 as regards possible signatures and recognition or acceptance of the one or

14 other document. And indeed, this can be done. But at any rate, no later

15 than after the first break in any event, but I have to discuss it with my

16 colleagues. Thank you. But let's proceed immediately with the actual

17 witness, if there is no other observation.

18 MR. OSTOJIC: No, Your Honour.

19 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Thank you.

20 [The witness entered court].

21 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Good morning. We will continue with your

22 testimony being aware that you are still under the solemn declaration.

23 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone Your Honour, please.

24 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: It was a question, sorry.

25 MS. KORNER: Right.

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Excuse me. I did not hear the

2 translation of your question.

3 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Sorry. It was my fault, not having the

4 microphone on. I said we will continue with your testimony. You are

5 aware that you are still under the solemn declaration? You are prepared

6 to continue?

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I'm prepared.

8 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Thank you.

9 WITNESS: MEVLUDIN SEJMENOVIC [Resumed]

10 [Witness answered through interpreter]

11 Examined by Ms. Korner: [Continued]

12 Q. Now, Mr. Sejmenovic, I want to just go back before I deal with

13 what happened after the takeover to a couple of matters. First of all,

14 had there been any change before the takeover on the 30th of April to the

15 way that funds were being submitted to Sarajevo or anyone else? Anywhere

16 else, I should say.

17 A. There was a change in financial flows. The local control of money

18 was carried out through an institution called "Public Auditing Service" or

19 SDK, as we referred to it. According to law, the task of this Public

20 Auditing Service was to control all financial transactions. Therefore,

21 each enterprise with financial transactions was to register its financial

22 transactions with the Public Auditing Service. The money flowed from the

23 local level towards the republic level was also controlled through the

24 same institution, the SDK. Before the takeover, it was noticed that a

25 number of enterprises were no longer loyal, so to speak, to the Public

1 Auditing Service, as well as a number of banks. And they started

2 redirecting money to different destinations. Perhaps I should also add

3 that the Public Auditing Service was one of the disputed points concerning

4 the distribution of power. The SDS unconditionally insisted that the SDK,

5 the Public Auditing Service, should be under their control. The way

6 things were done eventually, this didn't happen.

7 After that, it was noticed that money from a number of enterprises

8 was being directed to Bosanska Gradiska and to Banja Luka. At first we

9 didn't understand why Bosanska Gradiska. But later on, we learned that

10 there was an equivalent service that had been set up there, a public

11 auditing service that was to control money transactions from Prijedor

12 enterprises controlled by Serbs.

13 Q. You told us that the SDS were insisting that the SDK should be

14 under their control. Could you have a look, please, at a document which

15 bears the 65 ter number 85. Perhaps we had better put the English version

16 up on the ELMO. Thank you.

17 After the preamble, which refers to the constitution of the

18 Serbian Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina, there is a decision on

19 directing the revenues of the social political communities, their funds,

20 and other organisations and communities which states first: "The revenues

21 of the social political communities, their funds, and other organisations

22 and communities shall be directed to the deposit accounts in the territory

23 of the municipality where the depositor is located.

24 "Two, withdrawal of the revenues from the deposit accounts shall

25 be regulated by a special decision which shall be adopted subsequently.

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

1 "Three, this decision shall come into force on the day of its

2 adoption, and it shall be implemented from the 1st of April, 1992.

3 "And four, the ministry of finance and the payments and auditing

4 service shall be responsible for the implementation of this decision."

5 It is a numbered copy. It is issued from Sarajevo on the 27th of

6 March, 1992. And it is then signed or stamped by the president of the

7 Assembly of the Serbian People in Bosnia and Herzegovina, Momcilo

8 Krajisnik, with apparently the accuracy of the copy confirmed and

9 certified by the secretary of the Municipal Assembly, Mr. Pravuljac.

10 First, Mr. Sejmenovic, do you know this gentleman, the secretary

11 of the Municipal Assembly?

12 A. In my copy, the name is illegible. I can only see the last four

13 letters. This is a very bad copy.

14 Q. This states that the revenues that we've seen in paragraph 1 were

15 to be directed to the deposit accounts in the territory of the

16 municipality where the depositor is located. In terms of Prijedor, what

17 did that mean?

18 A. As far as Prijedor or any other municipality in Bosnia and

19 Herzegovina is concerned, the revenues of social and political communities

20 and various funds, in almost 100 per cent of the cases, were directly paid

21 into the republican funds. The channel used to do this was the SDK

22 through which money was channelled into the republican funds. And then

23 after that, part of that money was, according to the needs of local

24 communes or municipalities, further distributed. This decision only means

25 that the flow of money to the republican level was to be interrupted, and

1 that all payments were to be redirected into local accounts pursuant to

2 this decision.

3 Q. All right.

4 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, I'm going to make a check to see where

5 this document was found. That may assist.

6 Your Honours, may I ask that this document be admitted into

7 evidence, if it hasn't already been, as S136.

8 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Observations by the Defence?

9 MR. OSTOJIC: Yes, thank you, Your Honour. We do object to the

10 document based on relevancy as well as based on lack of signature by Mr.

11 Momcilo Krajisnik. Also I believe, at least my reading of the stamp

12 that's indicated on the original of the text bearing the ERN number

13 021164512 indicates that this is from the municipality of Bosanski Novi,

14 so I'm not sure how this witness -- how the OTP expects to utilize a

15 document from a different municipality than the municipality of Prijedor.

16 That's all I have at this time, Your Honour.

17 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: This document is tendered under Number S136,

18 after deliberation amongst the Judges, the document is not admitted into

19 evidence, and we expect the attempt of the OTP to provide a better copy.

20 And we recall at the same time the ongoing obligation of the Office of the

21 Prosecutor also as regards former and other documents in the future, to

22 provide in the courtroom the best possible copy.

23 MS. KORNER: Yes. Your Honour, I wonder if I could ask, if Your

24 Honours are going to or have made a provisional decision to rule against

25 the OTP, whether we might be permitted to reply to an objection.

1 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: I said it's provisionally tendered, and it has a

2 provisional number S136. I don't know whether you are aware what has

3 happened in this courtroom before. I'm sorry to say this, but in the

4 past, we worked in an extremely good way together and heard and

5 experienced that apparently there are better readable copies available.

6 It is only fair for all participants and also the Judges to have the best

7 possible document.

8 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, I'm sorry. That I understand, and we'll

9 certainly see if we can get a better copy. I did not understood Your

10 Honour to say this was only a provisional ruling.

11 Q. Mr. Sejmenovic, I next want to deal with another matter. You told

12 us that you had been aware of the Crisis Staff before -- or the term

13 "Crisis Staff" before the formal announcement in Prijedor after the 30th

14 of April.

15 A. Yes, that's correct.

16 Q. Were you aware of any provisions -- you say you heard it from what

17 happened in Croatia. Were you aware of any provisions in the Yugoslav

18 federal law or in the constitution of Bosnia and Herzegovina that dealt

19 with the idea or a similar idea of a Crisis Staff?

20 A. No.

21 Q. I'd like you for the moment to look at a document which is the 65

22 ter number 99.

23 MS. KORNER: Which I understand, Your Honour, has already been

24 admitted as S59.

25 Q. Now, this document is an excerpt from instructions on the work of

1 the municipal Crisis Staffs of the Serbian people dated the 26th of April,

2 1992 and signed by prime minister Branko Djeric. I say signed; I'll make

3 it absolutely clear that it's a typed signature. And I don't imagine, Mr.

4 Sejmenovic, that before you looked at this, when you were looking at

5 documents here, you had seen this document before. Is that correct?

6 A. Yes. I have seen this document as it was being drafted.

7 Q. You saw the document as it was being drafted?

8 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter apologises. The witness meant

9 "while I was being proofed."

10 MS. KORNER: Right. I may say, Your Honour, that would have been

11 a real turn up for the books.

12 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: This was a real Freudian, wasn't it.

13 MS. KORNER: Yes.

14 Q. What I want you to look at are the instructions that are issued

15 here and see whether they compare with what a Municipal Assembly was to

16 do. Item number 1 says: "In a state of war, the Crisis Staff shall

17 assume all prerogatives and functioning of the Municipal Assemblies when

18 they are unable to convene."

19 Can I stop there. Had you ever heard of such a body taking over

20 in a state of war, whether it was called a Crisis Staff or something else?

21 A. No, according to the existing law, in case of imminent war danger,

22 and pursuant to the constitution, there was a body called the National

23 Security Council. There was an allowance for a war presidency, but

24 certainly not for a Crisis Staff. The precise name was the National

25 Defence Council. So the body that could be formed in case of imminent

1 danger of war, the name of this body was the National Defence Council, and

2 this body met if there was an imminent threat of war. But the law did not

3 provide for any Crisis Staffs to be set up.

4 Q. Can we just look at Item Number 2 that says, or paragraph 2. "It

5 consists of members each of whom has his own responsibilities, the

6 president, deputy president, commander of the TO staff, president of the

7 executive committee, head of the MUP, Ministry of the Interior, and

8 members responsible for the economy, humanitarian, and medical care,

9 information, propaganda, procurement, and food supplies, refugees, war

10 crimes, damage, communications, coordination," et cetera.

11 Within the Municipal Assembly, were there persons who were

12 responsible for all of these areas of life?

13 A. Yes. There were institutions for all these functions, regular

14 institutions which, under a given set of circumstances, were supposed to

15 carry out these tasks, both in war and in peacetime.

16 Q. Then Item Number 3: "A Crisis Staff coordinates the functions of

17 authorities in order to ensure the defence of the territories, the safety

18 of the population and property, the establishment of government, and the

19 organisation of all other areas of life and work. In doing so, the Crisis

20 Staff provides the conditions for the municipal executive committee to

21 exercise legal executive authority, run the economy, and other areas of

22 life."

23 Now, again, would the Municipal Assembly, had it been meeting,

24 deal with the functions that are set out in this paragraph?

25 A. No. The Municipal Assembly is a legislative body. Executive

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

1 power, the government of the municipality and the executive committee were

2 in charge of the executive power. However, Article 2 and 3 are mutually

3 exclusive here in this document. First, the Crisis Staff is set to

4 distribute power, and then in Article 3, it is obvious that there is a

5 contradiction, the way they read. The Crisis Staff, according to this

6 decision, should inherit the functions of the assembly as a legislative

7 body but should also take over the authority of executive power. And

8 should have within its scope all the different spheres of life in the

9 municipality.

10 Q. Does that mean that the Crisis Staff had greater powers, on these

11 instructions, than the Municipal Assembly would have had?

12 A. Of course. According to this decision, and these instructions,

13 the Crisis Staff represents the supreme level of power. The president of

14 the Crisis Staff is superior to all the other segments and elements of the

15 Crisis Staff, to the head of MUP, the head of the TO, the executive

16 committee. All of them are now members of the Crisis Staff, but there is

17 a president of the Crisis Staff, too, probably a vice-president. So this

18 is a hierarchy within this newly established body. This could be

19 understood as the supreme power in the municipality.

20 Q. Then we see that Item Number 4: "The command of the TO and police

21 forces is under exclusive authority of the professional staff; and

22 therefore, any interference regarding the command of the TO and/or the use

23 of the police forces must be prevented."

24 From your experience, what do you understand by the word

25 "professional staff"?

1 A. Professional staff means qualified staff, also military staff.

2 Persons who went to a military school and who are professionals in

3 control, command, and the carrying out of combat operations. Most of the

4 persons in the TO were nonprofessional staff. As far as TO members were

5 concerned, they were all amateurs, in a manner of speaking. As far as

6 unit commanders were concerned, those were persons who were occasionally

7 called for military drills in order to maintain a certain level of

8 ability, should war occur. The only professional staff was in the

9 Prijedor garrison, and there, you had professional military officers. All

10 the other staff could be viewed as volunteers or amateurs, or staff

11 where -- who had received occasional training only.

12 The TO was not a professional body. They were not paid for their

13 work. That was not their job, strictly speaking. As opposed to the army,

14 who were professionals and were paid for what they did.

15 Q. Then can we look at Item Number 5: "Ban the use of all artillery

16 seized in combat, or acquired by other means, which can be used to destroy

17 towns and remove it far from the confrontation line."

18 Now, can I ask you this, Mr. Sejmenovic: At this period in 1992,

19 what was the relationship between the political authorities and the

20 military authorities? You've told us already a little about how the JNA

21 was aligning itself with the SDS, but this is a decision about banning the

22 use of artillery. How would that be enforced?

23 A. As artillery is used by the army and professional army was

24 mobilised army, specifically in the 5th Kozara Brigade, that means an

25 order must come for the commanders to remove artillery, weapons from the

1 town. So there must be some local authority to tell Commander Zeljaja:

2 "Withdraw artillery or transfer it to a different place" so that's how it

3 reads to me and this is the only meaning it can possibly have.

4 Q. Did the army take decisions involving, for example, defence or

5 anything to do with military manoeuvres, without involvement of the

6 political authorities?

7 A. Before the war, according to law, the army had its own scope of

8 activity, its training grounds, and it carried out military exercises

9 according to their own plans and programmes. They received their orders

10 from the Supreme Command, and then from military districts. And at the

11 local level, from military centres, garrisons or corps. The army did not

12 take orders from civilian structures at a lower level. The general staff

13 was the only authority to issue orders, or the lower-ranking military

14 command structures. The only relation of the civilian authorities to the

15 army was to have the civilian organs recruit a number of soldiers at

16 regular intervals, to draw up lists and send these people to military

17 training.

18 Another duty was that if the military should express a desire to

19 carry out a more massive military exercise, it could forward this request

20 to the national defence secretary or the TO, for them to secure a certain

21 number of TO members for this drill to take place. As far as direct

22 orders concerning military directives and weapons were concerned,

23 civilians could never order anything like that.

24 Q. So they couldn't give direct orders. What was the relationship at

25 the lower level? Let's take it at the level of Prijedor, on the municipal

1 level, between the political and army in the period leading up to the

2 takeover, that you could see?

3 A. The impression was clear. Most of the major

4 problems -- concerning most of the major problems, they had the same

5 views. Concerning mobilisation, concerning the need to fight in Croatia,

6 concerning the holding of a referendum, the declaration of independence.

7 The army's views, and I'm speaking about the local level now, and the

8 views of the SDS were identical. Also at the republic level, they were

9 identical or nearly identical as concerns all these matters. There were

10 no major differences.

11 Commander Arsic publicly expressed his gratitude to the SDS on

12 several occasions for its understanding of the needs of the army and for

13 its having assumed the role of someone who assisted the army, because the

14 army's goal was not to protect the SDS only, but all people. So we did

15 have an opportunity to listen to these public recognitions. There were

16 never any discrepancies or disagreements between Arsic, Zeljaja, or the

17 SDS.

18 Q. Thank you. Then, if we look at the next item, it states: "The

19 work of the Crisis Staff is based on constitutional and legal provisions

20 and on decisions reached by the assembly, presidency, and government of

21 the Serbian Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina.

22 "Seven, Crisis Staff shall convene a meeting of the Municipal

23 Assembly as soon as circumstances permit to have its work, conclusions,

24 and decisions verified.

25 "Eight, the Crisis Staff has the obligation to provide working and

1 living conditions for the JNA to ensure a fair attitude towards the JNA

2 officers and soldiers, and prevent them from being humiliated or

3 insulted in any way. As far as the attitude towards army property is

4 concerned, it must be based on the obligatory consultations with the

5 government of the Serbian Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina.

6 "Nine, the Crisis Staff shall provide--

7 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Sorry. May I interrupt you. You should be

8 aware that this document was read out in the courtroom in total before,

9 and I'm sure the witness having the document before himself is able to

10 read. We do not need to repeat.

11 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, I'd be grateful to any indications. I

12 was following Your Honours' instruction that the whole should be read out

13 in full.

14 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: It was read out on the 10th of June at 16.04,

15 page 8, line 4 of the transcript.

16 MS. KORNER: Thank you very much, Your Honour.

17 Q. Yes, finally this, then: Can I just ask you about the last

18 paragraph, which is number 14. If I can just read that: "The Crisis

19 Staff shall convene and make decisions in the presence of all its

20 members," et cetera, and "submit weekly reports to the regional and state

21 organisations of the Serbian Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina."

22 Can I just ask you this: Was the assembly, the Municipal

23 Assembly, obliged to send weekly reports to the republican assembly, the

24 republic level assembly?

25 A. No, never. There were institutions which had their superior

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

1 bodies at the level of the republic. And in accordance with the relevant

2 regulations, they sent their reports. And it is possible that the police

3 also sent their reports, financial institutions submitted theirs. But the

4 assembly never submitted any reports to anyone. Sometimes, the situation

5 in the assembly was reported by the deputies at the republican assembly.

6 But as far as the institutions are concerned, the local-level

7 institutions, they had their superiors at the level of the republic.

8 Here, we have the Crisis Staff and the Serbian Republic of Bosnia and

9 Herzegovina in Sarajevo, and also the war presidency in Prijedor, that is

10 the Crisis Staff in Prijedor, or in any other municipality where such a

11 Crisis Staff was established. Because the same pattern was followed in

12 all of these municipalities.

13 Q. Yes. Thank you very much.

14 MS. KORNER: You can take that document away now.

15 Q. Now, you were describing yesterday the takeover and what happened.

16 I want you please now to look at a document, Rule 65 ter Number 104. This

17 is a document apparently from the Prijedor public security station dated

18 the 30th of April, 1992, being sent to the Banja Luka CSB. This appears,

19 if one looks at the copy, to be signed by Simo Drljaca. Now, before the

20 30th of April, had you come across Simo Drljaca?

21 A. I only saw him several times. I knew him by sight. I did not

22 have any direct contact with him by virtue of my function. I did contact

23 with Mr. Talundzic, who was the police chief, but I did not have any such

24 contact with Mr. Simo Drljaca. But I did know him. I saw him several

25 times.

1 Q. Before the 30th of April, was he actually the chief of the public

2 security service?

3 A. I believe he was.

4 Q. Now, this is a description, apparently, of the takeover, and I

5 just want to see if it accords to what you saw happening.

6 "In reference to your dispatch of the above number and date, we

7 hereby notify you of the following: That of ten police stations with

8 numbering 1587 members were mobilised, all callups were responded to, and

9 there was no avoidance of work obligations. At 0400 hours, in keeping

10 with the conclusions reached by the executive committee of the Serbian

11 assembly of the Prijedor Municipality, power was taken over in the

12 territory of the municipality when possession was taken of all public

13 security stations and other strategic points. These activities were

14 carried out in a synchronised action and not a single bullet was fired.

15 The normal work and functioning of the service was ensured by organising

16 security guards and patrols. Economic and noneconomic organisations are

17 operating normally, and we should inform you in due time about our future

18 activities."

19 First of all, I don't imagine you can deal with the number of

20 police that were mobilised, but would you agree with the assessment that

21 these activities were carried out in synchronised action and not a single

22 bullet was fired?

23 A. I would. And I believe that I have explained what I had seen in

24 my testimony yesterday. It was perfectly clear that without adequate

25 preparations, it was not possible to deploy such a large number of people

1 within only eight hours. The number of people that I saw on my way to

2 work, as I travelled from my home to the municipal building and the party

3 headquarters, nor was it possible to ensure a sufficient number of

4 sandbags, messengers, duty officers at every important point, in every

5 important location in the town. So there must have been very serious and

6 long-term preparations that had taken place before that. In particular,

7 because of the fact that the majority of the people manning the

8 checkpoints were recognised by the locals, by the people with whom they

9 had socialised a few days before that. So there must have been also some

10 kind of psychological preparation for that. That could not have taken

11 place overnight. Dozens of armed soldiers were deployed in the centre of

12 the town only. I don't know how many there were in the overall

13 municipality, so it is quite possible that the number was even larger. I

14 cannot confirm or deny this number, 1587. I know that there were quite a

15 few of them in the town itself.

16 Q. And just two other matters on this document. It says: "The

17 normal work and functioning of the service was ensured by organising

18 security guards and patrols." I think you've told us about the sandbags

19 and those, but were buildings being guarded by security guards, looked

20 after?

21 A. Yes. They guarded the PTT building, the banks, the SDK, the main

22 junctions in the town, the railway station, the bus station, production

23 plans, bridges, all important locations and major intersections in the

24 town were manned by soldiers with weapons. And some of these location

25 were further secured with sandbags, and some even had snipers there.

1 Q. Yes. Thank you.

2 MS. KORNER: Your Honours, I don't know if this has been admitted.

3 If not, may it be admitted -- it has been admitted.

4 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: 137.

5 MS. KORNER: Sorry, as S137.

6 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Objections?

7 MR. OSTOJIC: Yes, Your Honour. Our only objection is limited to

8 the signature. The witness clearly testified he only saw Mr. Drljaca on a

9 number of occasions. He hasn't verified his signature. It's unclear to

10 us. So, just based on that we think they laid the improper foundation and

11 have not identified the signature as being properly that of the individual

12 it purports to be.

13 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Thank you for the comments. Nevertheless, in

14 this case, the document, the copy, is readable, but I take the opportunity

15 to remind the OTP on the ongoing obligation to present the original if

16 possible, or the best readable copy for the parties. It really

17 facilitates, as we have seen on the occasion of another example, our work

18 here. This document under 65 ter, having the number 104, is admitted into

19 evidence as S137A and B.

20 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, may I just ask on that matter, I was

21 aware of Your Honours' request for originals. Does Your Honour want

22 originals for every document, or just documents that are not as legible as

23 others?

24 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: For the documents admitted into evidence,

25 especially those documents where the signature is contested or, also for

1 us, difficult to recognise. And as I mentioned just before, on the last

2 occasion when we got another document, it is easier for all the

3 participants to work on this basis. I have no doubt at all that from your

4 experience, you would hardly work on the basis of such copies. You would

5 always use originals. It's only due to the special problems inside this

6 Tribunal that we have first of all to work with copies. But when a

7 document is contested, and especially when it comes to the question

8 whether there is a signature, is it the correct signature, and then to

9 decide whether we need, for example, expert witness on a signature, then

10 indeed it is necessary that at least the document is once provided and

11 make accessible for the parties and the Judges, it's a better basis for

12 our evaluation of evidence.

13 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, I'll leave it for Monday's session, if I

14 may, for Mr. Koumjian to deal with, because there are a number of problems

15 because of the nature of this institution in giving the Court originals to

16 keep, if you see what I mean.

17 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: We don't want to keep them. It is only to be

18 for one inspection in the courtroom.

19 MS. KORNER: Certainly. Thank you very much, Your Honour.

20 Q. Mr. Sejmenovic, can I now move to -- you've described the

21 takeover -- you've described the lockout from the municipal building.

22 Between then and, and as we're going to hear about, the attacks at the end

23 of May, what did you do?

24 A. Between that day and the attack at the end of May, I stayed mainly

25 in the area of Kozarac and Trnopolje. I never went back to Prijedor

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

1 except on one occasion -- no, actually I visited Prijedor on two occasions

2 during that period of time. We could no longer work at the party, at the

3 party headquarters at least. Political work was banned, generally

4 speaking, and our people were denied access to the municipal building and

5 other public institutions. Ever from that first day when the officials

6 and public servants in general were denied access to the municipal

7 building, a number of dismissals followed. Very soon, local transport

8 companies stopped driving to Prijedor -- to Kozarac, I'm sorry, and

9 Trnopolje. So except for the area of Prijedor and perhaps the area of

10 Omarska, other areas were being neglected. Shortly after the takeover,

11 students stopped going to schools in Prijedor, stopped going to schools to

12 Prijedor. And we were left on our own in Kozarac and Trnopolje.

13 Q. Now, did you hear about an order being issued for mobilisation in

14 the territory of what was then called the Autonomous Region of Krajina?

15 A. Yes, we did. It took place at the beginning of May, I think,

16 1992. They issued an announcement which was broadcast over the radio and

17 TV. It was a general mobilisation. They started mobilising the entire

18 population, the entire Serb population in Prijedor itself and in the

19 surrounding municipalities.

20 Q. I would like you, please, if you would to look at document bearing

21 the 65 ter number 116.

22 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Which provisionally is, for the record, S138.

23 MS. KORNER: Thank you, Your Honour.

24 Q. This is a dispatch from the Security Services Centre in Banja

25 Luka, dated the 4th of May, addressed to the chief all public security

1 stations. And it is not a signed document in the original, we see.

2 And this states: "We have received a dispatch from the government

3 of the Autonomous Region of Bosanska Krajina in Banja Luka which we hereby

4 forward to you in full." It comes from the Serbian Republic of Bosnia and

5 Herzegovina, Autonomous Region of Bosanska Krajina, regional secretariat

6 for national Defence, dated the 4th of May. And then says: "In

7 accordance with the decision of the ministry of national defence of the

8 Serbian Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina, dated the 16th of April, with

9 regard to the situation on the territory, with the aim of defending and

10 protecting people and property, and preserving peace in the area, the

11 government of the Autonomous Region of Krajina has made the following

12 decision:

13 "One, full and public mobilisation on the entire territory of the

14 Autonomous Region of Krajina is hereby ordered.

15 "Two, all military conscripts from the Autonomous Region of

16 Krajina are to make themselves available immediately to the municipal

17 Territorial Defence staffs, which shall, according to their evaluation and

18 plans, be responsible for the mobilisation, formation, and deployment of

19 units.

20 "Three, all authorities in social communities, businesses, and

21 other institutions shall immediately commence work according to wartime

22 organisation.

23 "Four, a curfew is to be introduced on the entire territory

24 between 2200 and 0500 hours except for members of the police, the military

25 police, and the Serbian Territorial Defence.

1 "Five, all paramilitary formations and individuals in possession

2 of illegal weapons and ammunition are hereby called upon immediately, and

3 at the latest, by 1500 hours on the 11th of May, 1992, to hand over their

4 weapons to municipal Territorial Defence staffs or the nearest public

5 security station. Upon expiry of this deadline, the relevant authorities

6 shall conduct searches and seize weapons and ammunition and apply the most

7 rigorous sanctions.

8 "Explanations" --

9 MS. KORNER: Would Your Honour wish this to be read out? It's

10 just a description of.

11 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: It's up to you, what you want to introduce

12 during examination-in-chief.

13 MS. KORNER: Thank you.

14 Q. I'll leave that part, then. We see that that was apparently an

15 order or decision issued by the secretary of the regional secretariat for

16 national defence, Lieutenant-Colonel Milorad Sajic. And then added: "With

17 regard to the above-mentioned, it is necessary that you immediately and

18 without delay undertake the necessary activities described in the above

19 decision and report to us about this as well as about all events of

20 interest for the security situation in the course of tomorrow. As regards

21 the curfew, tolerance should be practiced tonight, but tomorrow the

22 necessary permit should be sought during the designated time period. And

23 chiefs of the public security stations are personally responsible for the

24 implementation of this decision."

25 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, I just want to check, looking at the

1 original, yes, there was handwriting on the original dated the 11th of

2 May. And Your Honour, I'm --

3 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Did you say there was --

4 MS. KORNER: On the top of the first page.

5 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Okay --

6 MS. KORNER: Not at the bottom of the --

7 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: There should be no conclusion.

8 MS. KORNER: I'm sorry. Your Honour, I'm told this does come

9 from -- this was found at the Prijedor police station.

10 Q. Now first, Mr. Sejmenovic, you told us you remember the

11 mobilisation being announced. Did a -- first of all, did any non-Serbs

12 report for duty as a result of this order, to your knowledge, obviously?

13 A. No. I think I've already explained the context in which this date

14 can be placed. We were already isolated in that area. So any kind of

15 travel implied a major risk. There were people who had attempted to

16 travel but were robbed on the way and then came back. Interrogations had

17 already started. And when -- if we wanted to try to contact the SDS, we

18 had to ask for guarantees that the police would let us pass through the

19 checkpoints on the way to Prijedor. When this announcement was made, it

20 was actually addressed to the Serb population of the area.

21 Q. I'm going to deal with travel in a moment, because there's another

22 document I want you to look at. The curfew that was mentioned in

23 paragraph 4, did that take effect?

24 A. Yes, it did.

25 Q. And how was the curfew enforced?

1 A. I was not in Prijedor or Banja Luka at the time. I mean, I didn't

2 go to Prijedor or Banja Luka in the evening hours. But I know about the

3 curfew because there were very often announcements made on the radio or on

4 TV to the effect that the movement was restricted. But I personally

5 couldn't see it for myself. As far as my area is concerned, the area

6 where we were, every day was a curfew because after nightfall, people were

7 afraid to leave their homes. Shooting could occur at any moment.

8 Formally speaking, we had our Territorial Defence. We tried to organise

9 it as soon as possible, at least in order to avert an attack. And that

10 was -- that was the situation in which we found ourselves at the time.

11 Q. I'm going to come on to the organisation of the Territorial

12 Defence a little later. And I think -- yes -- I want to deal with the

13 order in respect of the disarmament after we've looked at another

14 document.

15 A. Excuse me. In connection with checking identification documents,

16 the first day after the takeover, I was IDed on several occasions in the

17 town itself. Practically every 150 metres, there were checkpoints and I

18 was IDed. A couple of days later, we agreed on a meeting with the SDS,

19 and they knew we were coming for a meeting. And yet, we were IDed several

20 times. So that was part of observing these regulations on controlled

21 movement.

22 MS. KORNER: Your Honour said provisionally admitted.

23 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: We have the custom, immediately, in order not to

24 confuse, when a document is tendered, to give a provisional number, and

25 then later to decide on the admission into evidence.

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

1 MS. KORNER: Thank you.

2 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: So may I ask the Defence, objections?

3 MR. OSTOJIC: Yes, Your Honour. We do have an objection. Also,

4 in addition to the lack of signatures that do not appear on the document

5 by either of the two individuals, we also object as to relevance.

6 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Following the policy laid down in our guidelines

7 in the beginning of this case and taking into account, of course, all the

8 reservations emanating from the fact that there is no stamp and no

9 signature, it is admitted into evidence as S138A and B.

10 MS. KORNER: Thank you, Your Honour.

11 Q. Now, in connection with this question of travel that you

12 mentioned, Mr. Sejmenovic, I'd like you to look, please, at another

13 document, which is marked, at the moment, as 65 ter number 144.

14 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Which will be then provisionally S139.

15 MS. KORNER: Thank you.

16 Q. Now, this document, can we just look at the back of it, has a

17 signature, it would appear, and a stamp. And it comes from the Crisis

18 Staff of the Autonomous Region of Krajina, and it's dated the 11th of May,

19 addressed to the president of the council for people's defence. "Subject:

20 Announcing instructions. Notice on issuing travel permits.

21 "One, all conscripts travelling outside the Autonomous Region of

22 Krajina must have permission to travel. The permit is issued by the

23 competent municipal secretariat for people's defence.

24 "Two, permits may be issued to citizens who work abroad if they

25 have a work visa, bring a photocopy of the work visa. Persons who are

1 going for treatment, relevant documents, discharge papers from the

2 hospital and referral for treatment outside the Autonomous Region of

3 Krajina. Those with a work obligation travelling on work-related business

4 [Relevant documents]."

5 And then it states: "Notice on the implementation of the work

6 obligation. On switching to work in a war organisation regime in

7 companies and other organisations and communities, the following may work

8 after submitting the appropriate documents: Those with a work obligation;

9 conscripts who have received callup papers to their war units for one of

10 the dates on presenting the papers; conscripts assigned to the Territorial

11 Defence, if they have not been called to their units with confirmation

12 from the municipal Territorial Defence staff that they are not currently

13 engaged by the TO; members whose war posting is in the civil defence units

14 of the local communes or the municipal units of civil defence" et cetera,

15 et cetera. "Five, conscripts who have been declared unfit for service in

16 the armed forces, with a permit issued by the municipal secretariat for

17 people's defence; women workers with no war assignments, with a permit

18 issued by the local communes." And then: "Information on taking over the

19 duties of military obligation and mobilisation, pursuant to the conclusion

20 of the Crisis Staff the Autonomous Region of Krajina. Dated the 11th of

21 May, 1992. The municipal secretariats for national defence must

22 immediately take over all duties related to military obligation and

23 mobilisation from the military and territory organs of the JNA."

24 Now, this document, dealing with the issuing of travel permits,

25 seems to deal with people working abroad, those going for treatment, and

1 those with a work obligation. What happened to people who did not fall

2 into any of those three categories?

3 A. If they tried to travel during this period, they would be returned

4 back to Prijedor. Under accusations that Muslims were preparing for a war

5 against Serbs so they were trying to send their families somewhere safe in

6 order to be able to fight the Serb army. So in order to prevent this from

7 happening, they forbade all travel. This was even in mid-May 1992, but

8 quite certainly in the second half of May 1992.

9 After that, there was no way to leave except when emigration

10 agencies were set up through which you could obtain the necessary

11 documents and pay certain sums of money in order to be permitted to leave

12 the area. Very often, you had to leave behind a document to the effect

13 that you were giving your property to the local authorities or the

14 autonomous region, and that you were leaving the area of your own free

15 will. So some people had to leave a statement like that in order to get

16 permit to leave.

17 Q. Was that already -- had that started already in May of 1992? In

18 other words, that you had to undertake that you were leaving your property

19 to the local authorities or the autonomous region?

20 A. I think this began as early as May 1992.

21 Q. Work obligation, we saw in the earlier document that companies and

22 organisations were to change to a war organisation regime. Those who

23 were -- who had a work obligation, was that people of all ethnicities?

24 A. In peacetime, yes, according to laws before the war, most people

25 in their companies had their own -- got to keep their own place in wartime

1 because then the economy must adapt to the needs of war. So in socialism,

2 that's how it was organised. There were plans for the functioning of

3 important companies and enterprises under war circumstances. And

4 important professionals and important positions were organised according

5 to the same principle.

6 As far as this new situation is concerned, in the Autonomous

7 Region of Krajina, the non-Serbian population was not under work

8 obligation, except later on when they were captured, they received

9 documents concerning their work obligation, so they had to take up their

10 duties.

11 Q. You say "when they were captured" you mean at a later period?

12 A. Yes. That was at a later stage. Some did have a work obligation,

13 that is, after they had been captured and they were assigned their work

14 obligation, but not at this time.

15 Q. And by "captured," what do you mean? I'm sorry, it was my error.

16 A. When the attack on Prijedor took place, and the attack on Kozarac,

17 and once the military operations were through, several thousands of

18 non-Serbs were taken to concentration camps. There were people in the

19 camps who were assigned to certain posts, and they were told: "Now, you

20 have work obligations." The army would then take them away to work, and

21 then return them to the camp. So some of those people had work

22 obligations, and maybe they could be treated according to these

23 regulations. But this period followed military operations.

24 Q. Yes. Thank you, Mr. Sejmenovic.

25 MS. KORNER: Your Honours, I'd ask then that this be admitted.

1 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Objections?

2 MR. OSTOJIC: Yes, Your Honour. We do. We object on the basis

3 that OTP through this witness has failed to lay the proper foundation for

4 the admittance of this document into evidence, and they have also failed

5 and have the lack of identification of the signature on this document.

6 And quite frankly, we think that it's irrelevant and can see, at least in

7 part, respectfully that the OTP is trying to utilize documents that are

8 perhaps relevant in another case, namely the Brdjanin/Talic case, which

9 does not incorporate the issues and facts as outlined against this

10 accused. There has been no nexus to show that this document was ever sent

11 to Dr. Stakic or received by Dr. Stakic, and this is just an attempt to

12 (a) broaden the allegations in the indictment against Dr. Stakic, but also

13 to utilize evidence which apparently is not available to support any of

14 the allegations in the indictment against Dr. Stakic. So by using

15 documents in another region and a Crisis Staff of Banja Luka, we think

16 that it's highly irrelevant as it relates to Dr. Stakic and this matter.

17 So on those grounds, we object to the document, Your Honour.

18 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Thank you. Observations in response?

19 MS. KORNER: Well, Your Honour, in order to do, that I have to go

20 back to the indictment, but Your Honour would prefer I didn't outside

21 the --

22 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Not in the presence of the witness. We decide

23 on this issue after the break. Please continue for another five minutes

24 if you so want.

25 MS. KORNER: I'm sorry?

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

1 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: If you want to have the break now, we can do it.

2 Otherwise, we could continue another five minutes.

3 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, I'm going to move to another document

4 dealing with disarmament, so it may be that I can't complete that in five

5 minutes.

6 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Then the trial stands adjourned until 10.55.

7 --- Recess taken at 10.25 a.m.

8 --- On resuming at 11.01 a.m.

9 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Please be seated. First of all, I have to

10 announce Judges have revised their former decision. To that end, that on

11 Monday, we will start with the necessary and already announced

12 administrative matters for the first one and a half hours. And this is,

13 first of all, with all respect due to the kind permission of the Defence

14 counsel. But it's an absolute deadline after the break, we have to

15 continue with this witness.

16 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, I'm very grateful.

17 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: You agree.

18 MS. KORNER: No, no, I want to object and change it again

19 actually.

20 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: So to continue, we finally had to decide whether

21 or not to admit into evidence the former Document 144. Indeed, with

22 numerous reservations and reluctance and taking into account, of course,

23 it makes much sense that we have the objections on the transcript

24 cautioning the Bench always, it is admitted into evidence as S139A and B.

25 But discussing this issue, the Judges are of the opinion once again to

1 recall that we have a witness before us, and not an expert witness. And

2 we were extremely close to this threshold, to this distinction this

3 morning. And as we all know, other rules would be applicable when the

4 witness would act as an expert witness. Therefore, please take into

5 account the witness has to be treated as such a witness, and not under the

6 other rule. Thank you.

7 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, I'm attempting -- and of course, I know

8 Your Honours will stop me if you think that I'm going over the line -- to

9 only ask the witness about matters he can deal with through his experience

10 of his background in the assemblies.

11 I was about to come to the question of the surrender of

12 illegally -- of weapons which we looked at in one of the earlier

13 documents. But I wonder if the witness could now be handed the document

14 with the 65 ter number 146. And again, this document is one that comes

15 from the Autonomous Region of Krajina. It's a decision. And I make it

16 absolutely clear that I'm showing it to the witness to ask him about his

17 personal experience of how this order was put into operation.

18 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Already now I would once again to recall our

19 request to provide us with a possible original -- if possible, with the

20 original; if not, with the best readable copy because apparently here are

21 some problems to identify who is the author of what handwriting in this

22 B/C/S version.

23 MS. KORNER: Yes, Your Honour. We're making a note as we go

24 along, and we'll take the -- get the originals.

25 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Thank you.

1 MS. KORNER:

2 Q. Mr. Sejmenovic, this is entitled or headed "from the Autonomous

3 Region of Krajina Crisis Staff, Banja Luka." And the date is the 11th of

4 May. And handwritten, I think, is: "To the President of the municipality

5 personally." And it says: "At the meeting held on the 11th of May, 1992,

6 the Crisis Staff o the Autonomous Region of Krajina reached the following

7 conclusions:

8 "One, the deadline for the surrender of the illegally acquired

9 weapons is hereby extended to 2400 hours on the 14th of May, 1992. The

10 deadline that expired today has been extended at the request of citizens

11 of all nationalities because of the wish to return the weapons in a

12 peaceful way and without the intervention of the police. After expiry of

13 the deadline, the weapons will be seized by employees of the Security

14 Services Centre of the Autonomous Region of Krajina, and the most severe

15 sanctions shall be taken against those that disobey the proclamation of

16 the Crisis Staff."

17 And then: "Classes in all elementary and secondary schools must

18 finish by the 20th of May. The organs of the Yugoslav People's Army must

19 immediately return all records to the authorised municipal secretariats

20 for national defence. That we hereby express our support for the work of

21 the Crisis Staff of the Autonomous Region of Krajina. All war plans and

22 Krajina enterprises must be analysed and approved by the council for

23 national defence of the municipality or rather the Crisis Staff of the

24 Autonomous Region of Krajina, only persons who are absolutely loyal to the

25 Serbian Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina can be placed in management

1 positions in enterprises. All male persons fit for war between 18 and 55

2 years old who have fled from the territory of the autonomous region must

3 immediately return to their municipalities and help their fellow citizens

4 in the struggle against the enemy."

5 And then this: "All persons who fail to respond to the above

6 calls shall be forbidden to return to their homes in the territory of the

7 Autonomous Region of Krajina, and all their movable and immovable property

8 shall be confiscated."

9 And there is a stamp on the original and a signature. And it's

10 stated to be Radislav Brdjanin.

11 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: For the record, only this goes provisional under

12 S140.

13 MS. KORNER: Thank you.

14 Q. Mr. Sejmenovic, I want to deal with the various things that are

15 mentioned here in this document. The surrender of what is described as

16 "illegally acquired weapons," when did you first become aware of an order

17 to surrender weapons?

18 A. We found out about this in the second half of May of 1992 at the

19 last interparty meeting. We pleaded with the SDS on several occasions to

20 have a meeting and try to figure out a solution. And after a number of

21 refusals, the SDS finally agreed. So a meeting was held in Prijedor at

22 the beginning of the second half of May. We were given an ultimatum at

23 that meeting, a very short deadline to return weapons in much larger

24 quantities than there could have been. The ultimatum was worded in such a

25 way that it was impossible to observe it. We were requested to return

1 several thousands of pieces within a week, or otherwise Kozarac was to be

2 razed to the ground. And I'm here quoting Major Zeljaja, and this was

3 confirmed by Colonel Arsic at the meeting.

4 It was a meeting with the SDS, but Arsic and Zeljaja had the main

5 say in the meeting.

6 Q. All right. I think we better deal -- I was going to come to the

7 meeting a little bit later, but let's deal with that in full at this

8 stage, then. This meeting took place, you've told us, in about the second

9 half of May.

10 A. As far as I can remember, yes, around the second half of May.

11 Q. And who had asked for the meeting?

12 A. The SDA did.

13 Q. And it was a meeting asked to be held with whom?

14 A. With the SDS.

15 Q. Okay. Where did -- I'm sorry. Had there been earlier requests

16 for a meeting? I'm sorry. I'll rephrase that question. Did you make

17 more than one request for a meeting before it was held?

18 A. Yes, almost on a daily basis. From all party levels. In the town

19 of Prijedor and the municipal level of the party, and also at lower, local

20 levels, certain members of the executive committee of the SDA tried to

21 make contact with the leaders or members of the SDS leadership in order to

22 agree to have a meeting to discuss these issues and to explain that they

23 had no reason for fear whatsoever.

24 Q. Now, the meeting that was held, where was it held?

25 A. The meeting was held in the SDS premises in Prijedor.

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

1 Q. And did you have any difficulty, and the other members of your

2 party, in getting to the SDS premises?

3 A. Yes, we did have a number of difficulties. Mr. Simo Miskovic, who

4 was the president of the SDS, guaranteed that we could reach Prijedor

5 safely, that we would not be stopped by the army or the police manning the

6 checkpoints, and that we were free to come to the SDS party building. As

7 the premises of the SDS and the SDA were very close to one another, first

8 we went to the SDA building, that is, our party's building, to prepare for

9 this meeting. We tried to enter the premises, but the key to the entrance

10 had been changed. So as we couldn't enter, we just continued on towards

11 the SDS building.

12 Outside the entrance to the SDS building, policemen approached us

13 and IDed all the persons who were forming this delegation. They asked us

14 what we were there for. Professor Music explained that a meeting with

15 Mr. Miskovic had been agreed. After several minutes Mr. Miskovic came out

16 and told them to let us through.

17 Q. All right. Can I ask you, how many people from your side

18 attended?

19 A. As far as I can remember, there was Becir Medunjanin, Mustafa

20 Tadic, Mr. Islam Bahonjic, Mr. Meho Tursic, Mr. Ilijaz Music and myself.

21 I don't think there was anyone else, if memory serves me well. The people

22 I have named were there for sure. I am certain of that.

23 Q. When you got inside the SDS offices, who was there from the SDS

24 for you to speak to?

25 A. The SDS members I knew, there was the president, Simo Miskovic,

1 Dusan Kurnoga, Slobodan Kuruzovic, a woman, and possibly another man I did

2 not know well.

3 Q. Now, you mentioned, when you were talking about disarmament,

4 conversations with the military, that is Zeljaja and Arsic. Were the

5 military there when you first arrived?

6 A. When we first arrived in their offices, there were no military

7 there. We wanted to start the meeting, but Miskovic refused. He said

8 that we should wait for the arrival of Colonel Arsic and Major Zeljaja.

9 When we said that we wanted to talk to the SDS members, they said that

10 they were not able -- that they could not discuss these issues in the

11 absence of Arsic and Zeljaja. That's why we waited for the two officers

12 to arrive.

13 Q. You said they said they could not discuss the issues in the

14 absence of Arsic and Zeljaja. Had you made it clear in advance what

15 issues you wanted to discuss?

16 A. I think that our contact person for these negotiations was

17 Mr. Becir Medunjanin. He was the one who conveyed to us what had been

18 discussed on a previous occasion. He told us that he had managed to ask

19 Simo Miskovic to have a meeting, and that Miskovic agreed that we should

20 discuss the overall situation and that we should attempt to find a

21 solution in order to avoid conflict, so that the people could go on living

22 normally and so that the town of Kozarac could be deblocked, so to speak,

23 so that the people could return to work and the children to school. One

24 objective was also to find an agreement concerning the TO in Kozarac.

25 Q. All right. Can we deal with those aspects that you just

1 mentioned. You say so that the town of Kozarac could be deblocked. What

2 had been happened in Kozarac in the intervening period since the takeover?

3 A. After the takeover, perhaps three or four days later, vehicles

4 could no longer travel from Kozarac to Banja Luka. They were returned

5 before they entered the village of Omarska. After the village of

6 Jakupovici, no passage was possible. Several vehicles had been seized and

7 people were returned. Likewise, it was impossible to travel by bus. The

8 bus line from Prijedor to Kozarac was no longer functional. There were

9 people who wanted to go to Prijedor to see their relatives, but they, too,

10 were denied passage at the checkpoint -- at the military checkpoint in or

11 Orlovaca. Electricity was cut for the town of Kozarac. Later on, the

12 telephone lines were also down, with the exception of just several

13 telephone lines which were still operational. So we were completely

14 isolated. And one of the issues on the agenda was the problem of freedom

15 of movement, so that people could finally travel from Kozarac to Prijedor.

16 Q. And why was it that Kozarac had been singled out for this

17 blockade?

18 A. Kozarac, at the time, was almost hundred per cent non-Serb. The

19 Serbian Crisis Staff did not have authority in Kozarac. The Crisis Staff

20 there still functioned in accordance with the BH laws. They had their

21 headquarters there, their premises, there was a territorial organisation

22 there which also functioned in accordance with the previous laws, and it

23 had not been yet integrated into the system of the Autonomous Region of

24 Krajina.

25 Q. You said that the Crisis Staff there, had there been a Crisis

1 Staff set up in Kozarac, made up of citizens from Kozarac?

2 A. Not to my knowledge during the relevant times. I don't know that

3 there was a Crisis Staff there. There was the Territorial Defence, and

4 attempt were being made to organise the population within the existing

5 institutions in Kozarac.

6 Q. Yes. It may have been the way it came out. But you said that the

7 Crisis Staff there, in Kozarac, still functioned in accordance with the BH

8 laws according to the translation that we got. If Kozarac was cut off,

9 who was in charge in Kozarac?

10 A. There may have been a misunderstanding or misinterpretation. We,

11 in Kozarac, still lived in the territory which functioned in accordance

12 with the previous laws, that is, the laws existing prior to the takeover

13 in Prijedor. We in Kozarac did not accept the Serbian Bosnia and

14 Herzegovina. We did not accept the Serb police with their insignia. We

15 had our own organs and bodies which still existed, such as the local

16 commune, and they constituted the local government. There was the

17 Territorial Defence and the local police in Kozarac. These were the

18 structures of government that existed at that time. The Crisis Staff in

19 Prijedor had isolated the area, because they did not have authority in the

20 area of Kozarac. That is what I meant.

21 Q. Now, you said that the other problem that you wanted to discuss

22 with the SDS was the TO within Kozarac. What was the problem there?

23 A. First of all, the SDS did not refer to the TO Kozarac as such.

24 They didn't call it that way. When they talked about the TO in Kozarac,

25 Miskovic, Zeljaja, and Arsic spoke about the Green Berets. And by that,

1 they meant the police and the Territorial Defence in Kozarac. And they

2 referred to these as "paramilitary formations".

3 Q. And was that -- had they been referring to the TO in Kozarac and

4 the police in such terms before you had the meeting?

5 A. Yes, as part of their propaganda.

6 Q. All right. So let's come back to the meeting itself. You say

7 that Miskovic refused to start without the military being there. Did the

8 officers Arsic and Zeljaja arrive?

9 A. Arsic, Zeljaja, and two other officers arrived, four all together.

10 Q. Did you know who those two other officers were?

11 A. No, I had never seen them before. One spoke in the Ekavian

12 dialect, which meant that he was not from Prijedor but from Serbia proper.

13 And he was the chief of security; at least that's how he was introduced by

14 Colonel Arsic, chief of security service or intelligence service.

15 Q. For which area, which corps, did Arsic say?

16 A. No. Arsic just said: "This is my security man." He said that he

17 was the officer in charge of security. He also said that he knew exactly

18 how many pieces of weapons we had.

19 Q. And what was the security officer, did you see what rank he was or

20 were you told what rank he was?

21 A. I don't remember seeing a rank, but it is possible that he was a

22 major. I don't remember very well, but it is possible that Arsic referred

23 to him as his "major," major in charge of security. But I'm not sure.

24 Q. And the other officer, was he introduced in any particular way?

25 A. The other officer was not introduced. He never said a word. It

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

1 is possible that he took the floor at one point in time, but it was of no

2 importance and that is why I didn't remember him. He kept silent most of

3 the time.

4 Q. All right. So what was actually discussed at this meeting?

5 A. Arsic and Zeljaja spoke most of the time. Miskovic spoke little.

6 As far as we, the SDA, are concerned, several of us took the floor. We

7 tried to explain to them in various ways that there was no need for them,

8 Zeljaja and Miskovic, to treat us that way, that we could assure them that

9 no Serb house or Serb resident would ever come under any threat and that

10 if they so wished, that we were prepared to establish joint patrols or

11 joint units in whatever area they choose. But all this was to no avail.

12 Q. So how did Arsic -- you've already mentioned the threat in

13 relation to Kozarac. But how did Arsic and Zeljaja respond?

14 A. They said that they wanted to disarm the Green Berets, that they

15 wanted all of the weapons to be surrendered. They mentioned certain

16 figures in respect of individual areas of Prijedor where non-Serb

17 population lived. They spoke in thousands, several thousands here,

18 several thousands there. I think that as far as Kozarac is concerned,

19 they mentioned the number of several thousand pieces of weapons. But it

20 all came down to them saying that there could be no talks or negotiations

21 any more, that we had several days to return these several thousands of

22 pieces of weapons; otherwise that they would raze Kozarac to the ground.

23 Mr. Medunjanin tried to reason with them, and he said that it was

24 senseless to -- for them to make such requirements, that Zeljaja and

25 Miskovic knew perfectly well that the population there had very little

1 weapons. But they insisted on these several thousands of weapons and said

2 that if these were not returned within several days, then they would

3 attack Kozarac. They also required for the Serbian flag to be hoisted in

4 the town of Kozarac. But the main condition of the ultimatum was to

5 return this quantity of weapons that they requested. If their requests

6 are not complied with, they said that Kozarac would be razed to the

7 ground. They added that they had the strongest corps in the area, that

8 they had aircraft, that they had missiles, and they said things to the

9 effect: "Do you know, are you aware of what you're playing with?"

10 What they were perfectly clear about was the fact that they were

11 not prepared to acknowledge any return of small quantities of weapons,

12 because they insisted on their knowledge about the exact number of the

13 pieces of weapons that they allegedly had, that the population allegedly

14 had. The message was perfectly clear to us. It was obvious that they

15 were hell-bent on doing what they had planned to do, regardless of what

16 they do.

17 Q. Two things: You say that they mentioned the corps was one of the

18 strongest. Which corps was that?

19 A. The Banja Luka corps.

20 Q. And second, you told us what Arsic was saying. Did Miskovic say

21 anything? I'm sorry, can I repeat that question. You told us that they

22 mentioned that the flag flying over Kozarac, the army. Did Miskovic say

23 anything in relation to what flag was going to fly over Kozarac?

24 A. Miskovic said that the weapons should be returned unconditionally,

25 these several thousands of pieces of weapons. After that, we were

1 supposed to fly a Serb flag over Kozarac and have a Serb police

2 established there because they said that they could no longer hold back

3 their extremists. Those were Miskovic's words.

4 Q. And the threat to raze Kozarac to the ground, was that said once

5 by them or more than once?

6 A. More than once.

7 Q. During that meeting, before it ended, did you have an opportunity

8 to see any documents?

9 A. What documents do you have in mind?

10 Q. Did you -- was any document handed to anybody at that meeting

11 which you then had an opportunity to see?

12 A. No.

13 Q. How did the meeting end?

14 A. The meeting ended with the ultimatum being reiterated. At the end

15 of the meeting, Mr. Medunjanin tried once again to reason with them. He

16 said that they had fewer weapons than they mentioned, and he said: "If

17 these weapons, if what we have is returned, what would happen?" And as

18 we -- on the way back, we discussed the possibility of purchasing several

19 thousand rifles. If we had had the means to do it, we would have done it

20 in order to comply with their requests. But people attending this meeting

21 were intelligent enough to realise that their requests were intentionally

22 impossible to meet. The only thing that was perhaps possible to do was to

23 hoist a Serbian flag over Kozarac and to let the Serbian police enter

24 Kozarac. But there was the first condition, the surrender of weapons,

25 which we were not able to fulfill. So Medunjanin said at the end of the

1 meeting: "We will convey to the population your requests and the results

2 of this meeting, and we will let them decide what to do."

3 Q. Now, during -- this is the final thing I want to ask about the

4 meeting. During the course of that meeting, was anything brought in for

5 Miskovic?

6 A. There was a detail which I mentioned in a previous testimony. A

7 fax had arrived from Belgrade. I managed to see it because I got up to

8 fetch a glass of water. And my former school colleague, Mr. Dusan

9 Kurnoga, told me where to get the glass of water. And it was at that

10 moment that the fax arrived. The lady who worked there showed this fax to

11 Miskovic, and what I was able to see from, perhaps, 1 metre distance, I

12 could tell that it was a list of medicines. He said that she should

13 respond by saying that they needed more medicines. He crossed out some of

14 the items and underlined others. But I was able to see what it was. The

15 list consisted of medical supplies such as bandages, that was the first

16 item on the list. It was the typical military medical kit that any

17 soldier needed, the first-aid kit, which meant that they were making some

18 military preparations. And he was asking for larger quantities than the

19 ones specified on the list. And this is -- this was an interesting detail

20 which I remember.

21 Q. At the end of this meeting, what were the impressions that you

22 took away of what was going to happen?

23 A. Our conclusions were as follows: They were getting ready to

24 attack Kozarac at all costs. Had they said: "Return the weapons that you

25 have" or "let's try to establish how many pieces you really have," if they

1 had said "1.000 pieces or 500 pieces, those would have been realistic

2 requests. But they spoke about 5.000 or 10.000 pieces of weapons and they

3 knew -- they were aware of the fact that this was impossible. This

4 particular aspect of the meeting told us that they were going to attack

5 Kozarac anyway.

6 Moreover, we were aware of the artillery placements all around the

7 area, and that the barrels were facing the areas inhabited by non-Serbs.

8 So this was the overall context of this ultimatum, and we could see no way

9 out of the situation. We tried not to give them any pretext for such an

10 attack. We also tried to organise ourselves in order to prevent the

11 massacre of the population --

12 Q. Can I stop you, Mr. Sejmenovic. I'm going to come on to the steps

13 you took later. I just want to go back for a moment to first something

14 you just said and then this document, to complete it. You told us that

15 you were aware of artillery placements around the area. By the time of

16 this meeting, could you see the artillery surrounding the Kozarac area?

17 A. The artillery had surrounded Kozarac even before this meeting took

18 place. At some locations, the artillery had been placed long time before,

19 immediately after the return of the 5th Kozarac Brigade in the battlefield

20 in Croatia, for instance, at Urije, located at the outskirts of Prijedor.

21 The artillery had been there for a very long time, and it was not --

22 Q. You told us that yesterday. What I want to know is had there been

23 any further movement of artillery in the area of --

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Right.

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

1 A. Yes. After the takeover and before the period I'm talking about,

2 sometime in mid-May, there was further movement of artillery, for

3 instance, in the area above Kozarac, near the quarry. One of such

4 locations was Benkovac, as well. Mortars were positioned near the road,

5 below the road, 1 kilometre away from Kozarac. There were mortars

6 positioned from the direction of Omarska, from the vicinity of the village

7 of Hadzici, a Bosniak village. Artillery was also positioned at the

8 Tomasica hill with the barrels turned towards Kozarac. This artillery was

9 also positioned during the period of time I'm talking about. This was

10 observed -- most of this was observed by local farmers. And there was no

11 resistance whatsoever to this type of activity.

12 Q. All right. Can we just come back briefly to this document. You've

13 told us you first heard about this order to disarm at this meeting. Were

14 any announcements made over the radio, that you heard, saying that weapons

15 must be surrendered?

16 A. There was an announcement to that effect at the time of this

17 meeting, but its broadcast intensified after the meeting. It could be

18 heard every hour over the radio.

19 Q. This talks about illegally acquired weapons. First of all, did

20 people, in fact, surrender their weapons as a result of this ultimatum?

21 A. Following the ultimatum, and prior to the ultimatum for a brief

22 period, all weapons owned by people in Kozarac was within the TO.

23 Regardless of the quality of these weapons. Handmade rifles, old Turkish

24 Kubara guns, pistols from Second World War, handmade pistols, hunting

25 rifles, weapons belonging to the police and to the TO, as well as weapons

1 that had been purchased privately, mostly by Serbs in Omarska. All these

2 weapons were listed and given to the Kozarac TO. The Serbian Crisis Staff

3 treated all these weapons as illegal weapons.

4 Q. Did that include, therefore, weapons for which people had permits,

5 legally issued permits?

6 A. Yes, of course. Just to give you an example, hunting rifles,

7 pistols, weapons with authorisation, people owned authorisations for these

8 weapons, and they obtained those authorisation certificates long before

9 the war.

10 Q. Did this ultimatum for illegally acquired weapons apply to Serbs

11 as far as you could see?

12 A. No, it didn't.

13 Q. All right. I want to move then just quickly to two other aspects

14 that are dealt with in these conclusions. First, it states in Item 4 that

15 war plans had to be analysed and approved by the council for national

16 defence, or the Crisis Staff of the autonomous region. "Only persons who

17 are absolutely loyal to the Serbian Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina can

18 be placed in management positions in enterprises."

19 Now, before the takeover on the 30th of April, 1992, were

20 management positions held by persons of non-Serb ethnicity?

21 A. Yes, there was an equal distribution of Serbs and non-Serbs in

22 the managerial positions.

23 Q. After the takeover, what was the situation in respect of non-Serbs

24 who held management positions in enterprises?

25 A. Those people were dismissed and replaced by Serbs.

1 Q. And finally, it states that "all persons who fail to respond to

2 the above calls shall be forbidden," that is, to return to the

3 municipality, "shall be forbidden to return to their homes in the

4 territory of the ARK and all their movable and immovable property shall be

5 confiscated."

6 How was that put into effect?

7 A. This decision was put into effect soon after the attack on parts

8 of Prijedor, Hambarine, and Kozarac. They began to confiscate private

9 property. They started with the most valuable items, and then forbade

10 people to return to their homes, those houses at least that had not been

11 destroyed. And then very soon we noticed other people moving into these

12 houses. During the first days, when they confiscated someone's car, they

13 would issue the person with a certificate to the effect that this was only

14 temporary confiscation. But later on, property was confiscated and no

15 further certificates were issued.

16 They started to loot, confiscate, and rob in an organised way.

17 Q. We'll come on to that later. This decision doesn't specify any

18 ethnicity. It says: "All male persons fit for war". Were there any

19 Serbs, to your knowledge, who had left the area and had their property

20 confiscated?

21 A. I don't know of a single case like that. There may have been such

22 cases, but at least not in the area where I lived and where I was familiar

23 with the situation. And there were a number of Serbian households there.

24 Some people had been absent from the area for a while, but their property

25 was not confiscated.

1 Q. Yes. Thank you, Mr. Sejmenovic. That's what I want to ask you

2 about this document.

3 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, I'd move for its full admission, if I

4 may.

5 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Here, I can't ask the Defence because the Bench

6 has doubts, and the time is not yet right for a decision. Probably the

7 underlying document was another one because apparently when you only look

8 on the numbers, the one in Cyrillic ends with 6, and English was 5.

9 Probably it's a typo or numerous typos only. When you see the scope of

10 underlining, it's different. And then it would be of major interest,

11 apparently on the B/C/S document, there seems to be an additional headline

12 indicating that it was sent by fax. Therefore, it's indispensable to have

13 the original before us. Thank you.

14 MS. KORNER:

15 Q. Now, before I deal with the steps that you took I want to return

16 for a moment to the political scene that was happening. Did you become

17 aware of a meeting in Banja Luka on the 12th of May of the Serbian

18 assembly, the Serbian Republic assembly?

19 A. I knew at that time that there had been meetings of Serbian

20 assemblies. Sometimes, we were able to watch TV or listen to the radio.

21 I didn't know much about the specific issues discussed by these

22 assemblies.

23 Q. Do you recall an announcement being made as to the goals of the

24 Serbian -- the Bosnian Serb Republic?

25 A. The goals were proclaimed publicly in different programmes.

1 Announcements by Crisis Staffs were usually followed by announcements of

2 the leaders at the local level and the regional level. At least as far as

3 public announcements were concerned, everything was subordinated to the

4 overriding plan of creating a Serb state. These were clear views. There

5 was no more hide and seek.

6 Q. And do you recall the announcement that a declaration of the

7 Serbian Republic and its own army within Bosnia and Herzegovina?

8 A. Yes, I do recall that.

9 Q. Then I'd like you, please, to have a look at the document with the

10 65 ter number 147, which are the minutes of the meeting held on the 12th

11 of May in Banja Luka.

12 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, with the same position before, that I'm

13 going to ask him about the knowledge of the persons involved and the

14 things said.

15 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Provisional number will be, then, S141. But

16 let's please proceed in the same way as with the last minutes we had

17 yesterday. Read out what is necessary those parts, and only those parts

18 then will be admitted into evidence.

19 MS. KORNER: Yes.

20 MR. OSTOJIC: Excuse me, Your Honour. If I may at this point

21 object. And the reason for my objection is that this is just an attempt

22 to circumvent what this witness has just previously said on page 49, line

23 16 through 17 where the witness clearly states that he doesn't or did not

24 know about the specific issues discussed by these assemblies. Now

25 counsel is either trying to refresh his recollection or have this witness

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

1 attempt to read what we can argue at times is left best for our own

2 interpretation or the interpretation by witnesses who were present, or

3 experts who have reviewed these documents and give their opinions on that.

4 This witness was clearly not at the assembly meeting on May 12th, 1992; he

5 clearly states he did not see it on television or hear about it on the

6 radio. And clearly and unequivocally acknowledged that he did not know

7 any of the specific issues that were discussed at this assembly. So I

8 object on those grounds and think that it would be highly improper to let

9 this witness now to review this document and give us any testimony in

10 connection with that based upon what he previously just told us.

11 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, we went through this same argument with

12 the minutes of the 11th of December. It is clear, because I've referred

13 to some of the issues that are discussed during this meeting, that the

14 witness did, in fact, hear about some of the issues. He knows many of the

15 people who are involved in these discussions, and he is able to assist to

16 that extent. And it may well be once his memory is refreshed from it,

17 he's able to say that he did see some of this on television.

18 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Indeed. It it's restricted to facts known by

19 the witness only, and if the document and only the parts of the document

20 will serve for as Defence counsel said correctly "refresh the memory of

21 the witness," then it may do so. Therefore, objection rejected.

22 MS. KORNER: Thank you.

23 Q. This, as I've said, Mr. Sejmenovic, was held -- this assembly was

24 held on the 12th of May, 1992, in Banja Luka, chaired by the president of

25 the assembly, Mr. Krajisnik. And if we look at the agenda, it includes a

1 report on the political conditions and the war, as it's described, in the

2 Serbian Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina. And it then deals with

3 various other matters that are to be considered. Adopting text of the

4 oath, confirmation of the decisions and other legislation, and then

5 amendments to the constitution and so on and so forth.

6 However, if we turn, please, to the next page in our translation,

7 we see the proposed text of the oath. "I swear I shall abide by the

8 constitution and the laws of the Serbian Republic of Bosnia and

9 Herzegovina. I shall protect its constitutional system honourably and

10 faithfully, respecting moral standards and spiritual values and the

11 struggle for the freedom of Serbian people and all other citizens of the

12 Serbian Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina, so help me God."

13 I'm stopping there, Mr. Sejmenovic. Did you come to hear what the

14 exact terms of the oath that had to be taken was?

15 MR. OSTOJIC: May we also, Your Honour, have a time reference as

16 to when the witness learned of this oath, whether it was yesterday during

17 the proofing or whether it was ten years ago just to keep the question

18 clear.

19 MS. KORNER: Yes, certainly, I accept that.

20 Q. Can you tell us if you heard first of all, and then secondly, when

21 you heard.

22 A. Are you referring to this form of the oath, or the specific oath

23 where the Serbian Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina is referred to?

24 Q. The oath, the text which was apparently adopted, which you can

25 read under Item 2.

1 A. I did hear this oath, but I can't tell you the exact period. Was

2 it May, was it June of 1992, or later? I really can't say, I'm afraid. I

3 can't remember. But I did hear it.

4 Q. And who was obliged to take this oath to the Serbian Republic?

5 A. Ministers, government members, deputies to the parliament were

6 obliged to take this oath. And there was an identical oath that was used

7 when the Serbian Municipal Assemblies were being set up, except that

8 instead of the name of the Republic, the name of the municipality was

9 used. This oath, for example, was spoken in Prijedor in early 1992 in the

10 theatre when the Serbs organised the establishment of the Serbian

11 municipality, a very similar oath.

12 Q. Now, could you move, please, to page -- it's page 7 of the

13 translation. And you will see there --

14 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Sorry, just for clarification. We should be

15 aware that we are discussing a different document now. We started with

16 the minutes. And then on page 4, the minutes are ending. And then we

17 have to go into another document which in English I can identify as

18 original minutes. There should be a clarification.

19 MS. KORNER: Yes, Your Honour is quite right because we move from

20 the agenda session minutes to original minutes which are a separate

21 document. Your Honour is quite right.

22 Q. If we can go to page 7 of the translation, which is in the second

23 part of these minutes. And Mr. Sejmenovic, could you find, please, the

24 speech or an intervention after Mr. Krajisnik has opened the session, we

25 see that a man called Radislav Vukic speaks.

1 A. Yes, I've found it.

2 Q. First of all, do you know who Mr. Vukic was?

3 A. He was the president of the Banja Luka branch of the SDS as far as

4 I can remember.

5 Q. And he makes a proposal that after the first item has been

6 completed, "we will move on to discussion of the bill on the armed forces

7 and draft decision on establishing the armed forces staff while we are

8 still rested and fresh, and while the commanders are still here."

9 Now, I want to ask you this: Do you recall seeing on television a

10 session of the assembly at which senior leaders of the military were

11 present; that is to say, Mladic and Talic?

12 A. Yes, I did see this on TV later on. At that time, we couldn't

13 watch TV. But later on, it was quite regular.

14 Q. And do you remember -- when you say "later on," how much later was

15 that?

16 A. In 1993, 1994, 1995.

17 Q. I see, so these were things you saw after you left.

18 Can we then move, please, to the next speech of Mr. Karadzic. And

19 he suggests -- he said, close to the beginning of the speech: "In Bosnia

20 and Herzegovina over the last two years since the founding of the HDZ,

21 first in Croatia and then in Herzegovina, and later in Bosnia too, with

22 its militant and dangerous gatherings with the insignia of the Ustasha

23 regime who has committed genocide against us and the setting up of the SDA

24 at it founding assembly with their militant Islamic fundamentalism."

25 Now, had you heard Mr. Karadzic described the HDZ and the SDA in

1 those terms before this?

2 A. If we are speaking about Mr. Karadzic's speeches in the Bosnia and

3 Herzegovina parliament he did not use such extreme expressions. But if

4 we're talking about party meetings and the SDS party policies, yes, they

5 were labelled in this way.

6 Q. Had you actually, when you say he was in the parliament of

7 Bosnia-Herzegovina, he didn't use such extreme expressions. Had you

8 actually seen him or heard him using those expressions on television or in

9 the press?

10 A. Yes, of course. Later on it became standard fare, the vocabulary

11 he was using.

12 Q. Now, still -- and I'm afraid it's quite difficult to find. This

13 is still Mr. Karadzic's speech. It's at the bottom of the translation,

14 page 11, and it's -- the sentence begins "Such a solution" -- I'm sorry, I

15 should take it back. "We found a solution with the United Nations for

16 Serbian Krajina."

17 A. Is this the beginning of a passage or is it --

18 Q. Yes, I'm sorry. My fault. The passage begins: "We understand

19 the pressure from the OSCE to which we belong."

20 A. It's all right, I just found it.

21 Q. Thank you. Right at the bottom, or very close to the end of the

22 bottom, there's a sentence that begins: "We tried to reconcile our

23 internal situation and our interests with the interests of others."

24 A. Yes, I've found it.

25 Q. The part I want to ask you about is this: "Such a solution was

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

1 not on the horizon in Bosnia and Herzegovina" -- I'm sorry. I ought to

2 read the whole passage so we can put it into context. "We tried to

3 reconcile our internal situation and our interests with the interests of

4 others outside of us. Those who live outside of us, and that is how we

5 found a solution with the United Nations for Serbian Krajina which, as a

6 sort of respite, may allow us to describe the position of our Serbian

7 brothers in Krajina and their preparation for unification and joining a

8 common state, that is, an alliance of states or a Serbian Federation.

9 Such a solution was not on the horizon in Bosnia and Herzegovina, nor

10 could it be implemented in the way it was in Croatia because huge forces

11 would be needed to cover the Serbian territory in Bosnia and Herzegovina.

12 Besides, we ask why Serbian territory has to be covered. Why not cover

13 Muslim territory, which is much smaller and much more problematic in the

14 state and legal sense, because the laws are not being respected, and

15 terror is being used there."

16 Now, the suggestion being made in that speech or that part of the

17 speech, I should say, is that the Muslim parts of the territory in Bosnia

18 and Herzegovina, laws were not being respected, and terror was being used

19 there. Do you know to what Dr. Karadzic was referring by this reference?

20 A. He probably meant that the laws of the Serbian Bosnia and

21 Herzegovina were not being observed.

22 Q. What about "terror is being used there"?

23 A. I am not familiar with any outbreaks of terror in these areas, at

24 least as far as the area in which I lived is concerned. On the contrary,

25 the Serbian Bosnia and Herzegovina and its institutions exercised terror

1 over the remaining population.

2 Q. Then can we look now at the goals that Dr. Karadzic set out for

3 the Bosnian Serbs and which you say you knew about. If we go, please, to

4 page 13 of the translation, and if you can find, Mr. Sejmenovic, the

5 passage that begins "the Serbian side in Bosnia-Herzegovina, the

6 presidency, the government, the council for national security..." et

7 cetera. And it may be Mr. Lukic can assist if he has the page number in

8 the Bosnian version, Cyrillic version. Have you found the passage?

9 A. Is it after these -- is it on the previous page with respect to

10 the portion we just read?

11 Q. No, it's further on from that. If you go to --

12 THE INTERPRETER: It's at the bottom of page 7.

13 MS. KORNER: Thank you very much.

14 A. Yes, I've just found it. Thank you.

15 Q. Right. The paragraph begins or the passage begins: "The Serbian

16 side in Bosnia and Herzegovina, the presidency, the government, the

17 council for national security which we have set up have formulated

18 strategic priorities; that is to say, the strategic goals for the Serbian

19 people. The first such goal is separation from the other two national

20 communities, separation of states, separation from those who are our

21 enemies and who have used every opportunity, especially in this century,

22 to attack us, and who would continue with such practices if we were to

23 continue to stay together in the same state."

24 Mr. Sejmenovic, had you heard that goal expressed before May, or

25 was this the first time when you heard about it afterwards, after this

1 meeting of the 12th of May?

2 A. I had heard about it before. It had been publicly discussed

3 before the first negotiations took place at the level of the Republic of

4 Bosnia and Herzegovina. Karadzic publicly demanded the so-called ethnic

5 division and suggested that Serbs should be separated from the rest of the

6 population. If Muslims or Bosniaks and Croats wanted to go their own way,

7 they could remain together. But as far as Serbs were concerned, his

8 position was that Serbs should be physically separated from others, both

9 along ethnic lines and in terms of public institutions. He said that they

10 would establish and create Serbian banks, Serbian PTT, Serb streets.

11 However, what was problematic was the fact that he considered some of the

12 areas which were actually non-Serb to be part of the Serb territories.

13 Q. Had he before -- I'm sorry, I should have made the question a bit

14 clearer. Had he before said that effectively, he wanted the separation

15 because non-Serbs were enemies and have used every opportunity to attack

16 and would continue attacking?

17 A. No. He had never expressed himself in that way publicly before,

18 by referring to others as enemies and as potential attackers against

19 Serbs. No. Such terms had never been used by him prior to the

20 establishment of the Serbian Bosnia and Herzegovina.

21 Q. Can we deal with the second strategic goal. "It seems to me is a

22 corridor between Semberija and Krajina. That is something which we may be

23 forced to sacrifice something here and there. But it is of the utmost

24 strategic importance for the Serbian people because it integrates the

25 Serbian lands not only of Serbian Bosnia and Herzegovina, but integrates

1 Serbian Bosnia and Herzegovina with Serbian Krajina and Serbian Krajina

2 with the Serbian Bosnia and Herzegovina and Serbia. So that is a

3 strategic goal that has been placed high on the priority list that we have

4 to achieve because Bosnian Krajina, Serbian Krajina or the alliance of

5 states or Serbian Federation is not feasible if we fail to secure that

6 corridor which will integrate us, which will provide us with unimpeded

7 flow from one part of our state to another."

8 Did you hear about this --

9 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Sorry. Just for our clarification, good to know

10 that the Bench in part can follow the Cyrillic lines. We were surprised

11 by reading Semberija in English. Could the witness please turn to page 8,

12 second paragraph, the three last words. Have you ever seen these words

13 before, and what is special with this Semberija?

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Semberija is a part of Bosnia and

15 Herzegovina bordering on Serbia.

16 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Thank you for this clarification in this

17 context. Thank you.

18 MS. KORNER:

19 Q. Now, this corridor that had to be created, had you heard reference

20 to this before May?

21 A. No, not before May.

22 Q. Did you hear about it either at the time or after this meeting of

23 the 12th of May?

24 A. I heard about it after the meeting of the 12th of May, shortly

25 after that. The word "corridor" was the most frequently mentioned word

1 over the radio because parts of the 5th Kozara Brigade had been sent to

2 the front line to establish and defend this corridor.

3 Q. And this goal, as it was expressed, to set up a corridor between

4 Semberija and the Krajina, did that have any direct effect on the Prijedor

5 municipality? Did its positioning have any importance for this idea of a

6 corridor?

7 A. It wouldn't have any importance if Bosnia and Herzegovina existed.

8 It could only have significance in case these Serb territories are

9 separated and needed to be connected with Serbia. Because several areas

10 are relevant here, if you look at the map. Some of these areas do not

11 have natural, physical connection with Serbia, and the corridor was needed

12 in order to establish this communication in order to link up these Serb

13 areas with the Republic of Serbia.

14 Q. And in relation to this need to link up the Serb areas, where did

15 Prijedor fit in it?

16 A. Prijedor is located far away from the corridor.

17 Q. All right. Can we deal very quickly, then, with the last goals.

18 The third strategic goal was to establish another corridor in the Drina

19 valley. And the fourth strategic goal, the establishment on the border on

20 the Una and Neretva Rivers.

21 MS. KORNER: It think it may as well be if, after the break, we

22 just look at a very quick map, or a map quickly, rather.

23 Q. And the fifth strategic goal is the division of the city of

24 Sarajevo into Serbian and Muslim parts, and the sixth strategic goal is

25 the access of the Serbian Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina to the sea.

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

1 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, I think it's a little bit early, but

2 it's a good place to stop. We would like to look at that map.

3 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Thank you. The trial stands adjourned until

4 2.00 sharp.

5 --- Luncheon recess taken at 12.27 p.m.

6 --- On resuming at 2.03 p.m.

7 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Please be seated. And once again, we have

8 before us a question to deal with the next three months. The six

9 strategic goals, please proceed.

10 MS. KORNER: What I was about to do, Your Honour, was we've blown

11 up part of a full map of Bosnia and Herzegovina which has not yet been

12 exhibited, but it's the easiest way to show this. And the Defence have

13 seen a copy and don't object, I understand.

14 I wonder -- the best thing is for it to be put on the ELMO, and

15 Your Honour, we'll provide copies for the Chamber and to the Defence by

16 Monday.

17 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: I appreciate, registry, that it will be 142?

18 Wasn't the previous one -- okay, fine. 142 provisionally.

19 MS. KORNER:

20 Q. Now, let's identify first of all, please, Mr. Sejmenovic, for

21 the -- it's not really that clear, but can we just identify Prijedor. We

22 can move the map slightly towards the right.

23 A. Prijedor is here where I'm showing.

24 Q. Can you indicate, and I think we'll have to map to its very edge

25 where Semberija is. Yes, we'll have to push the map along. Can we move

1 the map.

2 A. This is the area of Semberija. And here across the border is the

3 territory of the Republic of Serbia.

4 Q. And we can see one of the major towns there is Bijeljina.

5 A. Yes, Bijeljina is the administrative centre, not only

6 administrative, but also the economic and political centre of the

7 Semberija.

8 Q. Can I just ask you, if you were travelling through this area, in

9 other words from Serbia through Semberija, and you wanted to go as is said

10 in the second strategic goal the Krajina, the Autonomous Region of

11 Krajina, what would the route -- the most simple route be? For example,

12 let's take a purely hypothetical example, you want troops to come from

13 Serbia through this -- to go towards the Krajina, and then Croatia, what

14 would be the most straightforward route or the best route?

15 A. The best or --

16 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: I'm hesitant that the witness could answer such

17 a question, to be honest. The first portion of your question was more

18 adequate, which would be the normal travel route. I have not the

19 impression that our witness is an expert on defence.

20 MS. KORNER: No. I'll rephrase the question.

21 Q. I should ask, first of all, have you ever travelled,

22 Mr. Sejmenovic --

23 A. The most usual --

24 Q. I'm sorry, I didn't catch the answer there.

25 A. The most usual route to take, if one was to travel from this area

1 here to the parts of Croatia that you mentioned, would be via Vinkovci,

2 because the roads are much better over there. However, there is an

3 alternative route across Tuzla, Doboj, Banja Luka, Prijedor, Bosanski

4 Novi, and then further on to Croatia. If one wanted to travel to Serb

5 ethnic territories --

6 Q. Stop for a moment. Just so that we can see it, because the

7 maps -- you would say you would go from Bijeljina to Tuzla. Can we move

8 the map so we can see Doboj. And then you said to Banja Luka.

9 A. Yes, to Banja Luka. Or Bijeljina, Brcko, Derventa, Banja Luka.

10 Q. If you wanted to go into the Croatian Krajina?

11 A. If you wanted to go to the Croatian Krajina from Banja Luka, you

12 would have to go to Prijedor, then to Bosanski Novi, and then further on

13 to Croatia; or Bosanski Novi, Bosanska Krupa, Bihac, and then Croatia

14 depending on your destination in Croatia.

15 Q. But either route would take you through Prijedor, whether you went

16 through Krupa or Novi?

17 A. If you have arrived at Banja Luka from that direction, then you

18 would have to continue to Prijedor, Bosanski Novi, Bosanska Krupa, and

19 Bihac. Of course, you would have to pass through Prijedor. Prijedor can

20 be bypassed only if you go to Novo Gradiska, which is a different

21 destination in Croatia. If you wanted to go to the Croatian Krajina, then

22 the best way would be Prijedor, Bosanski Novi.

23 Q. Now, can we just, while you've still got the map, deal with this:

24 The fourth strategic goal was the establishment of the border on the Una

25 and Neretva Rivers. Can you just indicate the Una River, first of all.

1 A. The River Una can be seen here on the map, depicted in blue,

2 running from Bosanski Novi to Bihac and further on. I am now following

3 the Una River.

4 Q. And can one see on the map -- it may not be on it -- the Neretva

5 River? Maybe not.

6 A. The Neretva River cannot be seen on this portion of the map.

7 Q. Can you just roughly tell us where that is.

8 A. It is here, in this area compared to the map.

9 Q. Can we just bring the map down slightly. So it's below Sarajevo,

10 is it?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Okay. Thank you very much. Unless there are any other areas that

13 Your Honours would like the witness to point out, that's all that I intend

14 to ask.

15 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

16 MS. KORNER: Unless there are any other areas.

17 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Not at the moment.

18 MS. KORNER: Yes, thank you. You can take the map away.

19 Q. I'm sorry, one more question. Hand the map back. It says the

20 sixth strategic goal is the access of the Serbian Republic of Bosnia and

21 Herzegovina to the sea. Where was the nearest access to the sea that

22 Bosnia and Herzegovina would have?

23 A. Could you zoom in, please. Can this portion here be enlarged,

24 please? The other way around.

25 Can we see all of this part on the ELMO, please.

1 The shortest way to the coast from Bosnia and Herzegovina was

2 here, if we had the remainder of the map, we would be able to see it.

3 Q. All right. I think we get the general idea. I'm just seeing if I

4 can see what the nearest big town is. We can see, I think, it's not very

5 clear, but is this right, we can see Knin on the left of the map?

6 A. Yes, we can Knin here, but Bosnia and Herzegovina have access to

7 the coast in the area of Neum, where I'm indicating with the pointer. And

8 that is the closest way to the coast. Neum is the direct access to the

9 coast, but there's also an area which is very close to the border of

10 Bosnia and Herzegovina.

11 Q. Thank you very much, Mr. Sejmenovic. Now you really can take the

12 map away.

13 Now, I want to move, leaving Mr. Karadzic's speech, to a couple of

14 other speeches that were made during that session. And I just want to

15 find -- yes -- it's a speech made by a man called Kalinic. It's on page

16 22 of the translation. And for your purposes, Mr. Sejmenovic, if you go

17 through -- carry on in the record, after Karadzic, you get somebody called

18 Beli, and then somebody called Mr. Milosevic, who is not I hasten to add

19 the Milosevic who is on trial. Then Mr. Radic, Trifko Radic, Mr. Djuric,

20 and then finally Mr. Kalinic.

21 A. Yes, I've found this passage.

22 Q. Now, first of all, had you ever heard or met somebody called

23 Dragan Kalinic?

24 A. Yes, I knew Dragan Kalinic from the assembly of Bosnia and

25 Herzegovina. He was a member of the opposition.

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

1 Q. When he was still a member of the assembly of Bosnia and

2 Herzegovina, what were his views like? Were they moderate, extreme?

3 A. His views were rather moderate. He was not a member of the SDS,

4 but a member of one of the left-wing parties and was a member of this very

5 active opposition in the assembly, together with other deputies of mixed

6 ethnic origin. He was very often opposed to the intentions and positions

7 of the SDS. I'm referring to his actual speeches and interventions at the

8 parliament. I remember when the declaration on independence was

9 discussed, that he was against it. And he spoke publicly against it.

10 Q. All right. Well, let's -- I'm sorry. And the other thing is, was

11 there as far, as you could see from the time that you were in the

12 assembly, and both he and Brdjanin were there, was there any special

13 relation? I'm sorry. Did they seem particularly close or friendly or

14 express similar views?

15 A. If I were to judge by their statements and discussions in which

16 they took part at the parliament, they did not seem close at all. And

17 before these discussions, they were never seen together or in any kind of

18 contact, Kalinic and members of the SDS.

19 Q. All right. Can we just have a look for a moment at what -- part

20 of what Mr. Kalinic had to say at this session. As you say rightly,

21 he -- it doesn't seem he was a member of the party because he says:

22 "Gentlemen and ladies, I will speak on behalf of the group of independent

23 deputies of this assembly. I would like first to apologise for appearing

24 on this stand in such inappropriate attire. It is because we are at war,

25 and we all brought what we could."

1 And he then says: "I would like to address some of the things I

2 have heard here and some of the information and ideas that have been in

3 circulation lately, which would create a certain confusion among our

4 people, and maybe this would be the right place to clear such issues up

5 while there is still time. Among all the issues, this assembly should

6 decide on, the most important one is this: Have we chosen the option of

7 war or the option of negotiation? I say this with a reason, and I must

8 instantly add that knowing who our enemies are, how perfidious they are,

9 how they cannot be trusted until they are physically, militarily

10 destroyed, and crushed, which, of course, implies eliminating and

11 liquidating their key people. I do not hesitate in selecting the first

12 option, the option of war because I believe that our fate, the fate of

13 Serbs in Bosnia-Herzegovina, and I do not link it in any way to the fate

14 of Serbia and Montenegro. I have said this before, our sentimental and

15 national bonds in this respect must be reduced in this respect to a

16 pragmatic level and established on the basis of interest, that the fate of

17 Serbs in Bosnia-Herzegovina cannot be solved in any other way but by war.

18 It is possible that in doing this, the fate of our Serbs in

19 Bosnia-Herzegovina would be to chose a hundred years of solitude over 500

20 years of slavery under some new Turkish empire. We will find ourselves in

21 an extreme isolation, and will only have ourselves to rely on. We have to

22 calculate on this, and I will be the first one to say here that I am

23 ready, as probably most of you are, to share this fate with our people.

24 "Why do I say that the option of war seems more likely to me?

25 Because only what has been conquered militarily may become really and

1 truly ours."

2 I'm going to come back and ask you something about this in a

3 moment, but I'd like you just to go on, please, for a moment to find

4 Mr. Brdjanin's speech, which is on our page 29. And for your purposes,

5 Mr. Sejmenovic, it comes -- there are three speeches in between. One by

6 Mr. Kupresanin, and then Mr. Brdjanin.

7 A. I've found the speech of Mr. Brdjanin.

8 Q. Radislav Brdjanin: "Mr. President, I asked for the floor only

9 after I realised that I was the most remote, that compared to everything

10 else, I am the kindergarten. I would like first of all -- I would first

11 of all like to thank all those participating in the discussion. I would

12 like to say a heartfelt bravo to Mr. Kalinic in all my appearances in this

13 joint assembly, it has never crossed my mind that although he seems quiet,

14 while I seem hawkish, his opinions are the closest to mine. I believe

15 that this is the formula and that we should adhere to this formula."

16 In other words, at that stage, Mr. Sejmenovic, it appears that

17 Mr. Brdjanin is echoing what you have described about Mr. Kalinic in being

18 quiet --

19 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Defence tries to take the floor a couple minutes

20 ago.

21 MR. OSTOJIC: Pardon me. Your Honour, at this point we object to

22 this line of questioning as it relates to Mr. Kalinic, and also I truly

23 believe, although I know we've modified the rule somewhat, and not so far

24 as reading the entire text of the speech and incorporating with what the

25 witness earlier testified about, this witness's more moderate views, but

1 how does that in any way relate or how does it connect up with Dr. Stakic

2 who was never alleged to have been at this meeting or have any

3 relationship with Brdjanin or Mr. Kalinic. In this case, I think what

4 we're trying to do, unfortunately, is to cloud the issues that are before

5 us, and if you read on and read the entire text of not just this document,

6 but other issues, Mr. Kalinic is specifically referring to the war that's

7 occurring in Sarajevo, and that's the war that they are debating. He also

8 talks about various Green Berets that I don't want to again poison the

9 entire record by suggesting that there were or there were not. We could

10 address that later in my cross-examination.

11 He also testifies about certain mercenaries coming from various

12 different countries and he cites a specific number. It really doesn't

13 have anything to do, and he goes on to discuss Sarajevo in quite some

14 detail and the war. How does that have anything to do with Prijedor? As

15 we saw on the map it's remotely distant. And I would object on the

16 grounds that it's irrelevant and also there's leading questions by the OTP

17 in connection with what Brdjanin thought and whether those were his

18 thoughts. If this witness can tell us what Brdjanin thought about

19 Mr. Kalinic, I would agree that he can testify to that only after we

20 establish the foundation that such testimony is relevant, which I still

21 have not unfortunately been able to determine.

22 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, because it's clearly an issue that's

23 coming up over and over again, if the witness -- I know Your Honour

24 doesn't want delay -- but I think I better put the OTP's position on this

25 and that's why I'm going through this. And Your Honour would prefer it

1 not be done in the presence of the witness.

2 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone please, Your Honour.

3 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: If the OTP is prepared to show a little bit of

4 self-restraint as regards this text be read out in total, because

5 apparently indeed, the Defence might be correct that also bearing in mind

6 the entire context of the indictment, we are departing a little bit, to

7 put it this way. And I would appreciate to guide the witness to that what

8 he really has seen and experienced at that time in the area forming part

9 of the substantive matter of our case.

10 Please proceed. And we should discuss it properly a little bit

11 later in the absence of the witness.

12 MS. KORNER: Your Honour. That's the difficulty. I'm sorry about

13 this, but the documents that you see listed, a lot of them deal with this

14 aspect of the case. Your Honour, I think I can deal with this very simply

15 without going into detail, so it doesn't effect the witness being here.

16 Your Honour, this is an allegation not simply of what took place in

17 Prijedor, but -- does Your Honour want me to continue or not?

18 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: I think we are all aware of this, and we are

19 aware of this idea of the OTP having this overall view what they regard

20 has happened in former Yugoslavia and the link between all incidents,

21 accidents, serious crimes committed there. But we already previously

22 stated, we should refrain from trying to give the impression that it is

23 alleged that Dr. Stakic in person is -- and please, object if you don't

24 have the same approach -- that Dr. Stakic, he himself, can't be held

25 responsible. For example, to be quite concrete, for what a person, an

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

1 independent deputy in this assembly has said. I'm aware that it's very

2 difficult, and it's challenging indeed to establish this entire context.

3 But wouldn't it be more helpful on the basis of facts and, as I said the

4 experiences the witness has made and he has told us already a lot of what

5 he has experienced during this period in time and bringing into

6 relationship what actually happened, but without giving the impression

7 that there should be, for example, it's only in a nutshell, a link between

8 an independent deputy saying this and Dr. Stakic. There has to be made a

9 clear distinction.

10 MS. KORNER: Yes. Your Honour, it's the intervening link that's

11 important. It's not that the Prosecution has a theory; it's what the

12 evidence shows and what the Prosecution has to prove as part of

13 international law, which is applied in this indictment. And one of the

14 things that it is obliged to prove is what's called widespread and

15 systematic, that these things happened as a result of a pattern. The

16 importance -- I agree with you, Your Honour, entirely, an independent

17 person's speech like this would have no relevance except for what is said

18 by the intervenor, the speech that we just looked at. And the evidence,

19 we say, shows that Mr. Stakic and Mr. Brdjanin were closely linked

20 together. And the next question I'm going to ask is whereby this speech

21 rests.

22 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: I think we should indeed not continue this

23 discussion in the presence of the witness before us. And another point of

24 relevance is, of course, the OTP has to know how to use the time available

25 in the most appropriate manner from the OTP's perspective. I can't add

1 anything. So please proceed in this spirit.

2 MS. KORNER: Yes.

3 Q. Mr. Sejmenovic, what I want to ask you is this: And I want to

4 jump ahead a moment to what you dealt with slightly and what happened to

5 you. In respect of the leadership of the SDA in Prijedor, what happened

6 to the leaders of the SDA after the takeover by the SDS?

7 A. After the SDS took over, preparations ensued that I have already

8 talked about, and an attack was carried out on parts of Prijedor.

9 Afterwards, almost the entire leadership of the SDA, its members, were

10 captured. They were either killed or they were classified as missing for

11 a while. A very small number of them managed to escape in time or hide

12 somewhere.

13 Q. What about leaders of the HDZ, if you're aware of that?

14 A. I know that a similar fate also befell leaders of the HDZ, as well

15 as leaders of other opposition parties who were non-Serbs.

16 Q. What about persons not specifically associated with a political

17 party, but who could be considered leaders of the communities who were

18 non-Serbs?

19 A. In as far as they had any authority, and if they were captured

20 during the first period, they were killed. If they held official

21 positions, if they were presiding judges or just judges or managers, if

22 they were owners of the pharmacy, for example, most of them were killed.

23 Teachers, professors, engineers, economists.

24 Q. Yes. Yes. Thank you, Mr. Sejmenovic.

25 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, I'm asking for the reason that this be

1 admitted into evidence.

2 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: May we please ask the witness, before we come to

3 this point, to turn in the B/C/S version to page 5. And please, read out

4 the final line and what you can see and read under this final line. It's

5 the first document.

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The last line on page 5 reads: "The

7 tape recording of this session is a part of this record." If His Honour

8 would wish me to say, I can say what this means exactly.

9 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Yes. And in addition, what you can find under

10 this line, just for the record.

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Under this line, there is a stamp

12 "Republika Srpska" and "the national assembly of Republika Srpska in

13 Sarajevo." Signed by president of the assembly, Momcilo Krajisnik.

14 Now, I want to explain that it is standard procedure in the work

15 of any parliament, be it at the republic level or at the municipal level,

16 is that the whole course of proceedings is recorded in shorthand and, at

17 the same time, taped. If possible, a videorecording is made. The tape

18 recording and the record both represent an official document reflecting

19 the meeting. This is usual practice, provided, of course, that the

20 necessary equipment is available.

21 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Do I understand it correctly that the following

22 page brings us to these minutes, starting once again with page 1?

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. Here it reads: "Original

24 record." It was probably put together on the basis of the tape or the

25 record in shorthand, and then corrected by using the tape recording. I'm

1 talking about the standard procedure, how this is usually done.

2 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Thank you for this assistance in providing us

3 some guidance for the link between the two documents tendered by the OTP.

4 If you then, please, turn to page 46 of this second document and

5 read the last line and, just for the record, whether there is a signature

6 or a stamp.

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Page 46, the last page of the

8 document, the last sentence reads: "I declare the 16th session closed and

9 thank you for attending." There is no stamp here and no signature.

10 Usually, this page is not stamped or signed, at least the way we did it in

11 the Bosnia and Herzegovina parliament.

12 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Indeed, easily to be understood.

13 Two documents are tendered. Objections by the Defence?

14 MR. OSTOJIC: Same objections as outlined previously, Your Honour.

15 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Thank you.

16 Then the former 65 ter document 147 is, in those parts read out

17 today, and that can be followed on today's transcripts, admitted into

18 evidence. The minutes under S141-1A for English and B for B/C/S. And the

19 second document, the so-called original minutes, as S141-2A for the

20 English version, B for the B/C/S version. And once again, only in those

21 parts read out and forming part of today's transcript.

22 MS. KORNER: Thank you very much, Your Honour. Can I give back to

23 one of the documents that Your Honours asked about before. This is

24 Exhibit 65 ter 146, which Your Honours admitted provisionally, as 140.

25 We've rescued the original from the vault -- I say "we have." It may be

1 that Your Honours want to have a look at that copy because it's a

2 certified copy.

3 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: If it could be first of all presented to the

4 Defence.

5 MS. KORNER: To the Defence, yes.

6 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: And then, please.

7 MS. KORNER: That is -- I should add, it's the original original.

8 To the Defence first, and then to the...

9 [Trial Chamber confers]

10 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: If the OTP could be so kind and provide us

11 additionally with a copy of the back side of this document. And then just

12 for the record, we would appreciate if the English translation, having

13 apparently numerous typos, first of all as regards the numbering of the

14 paragraphs, if this could be corrected and, first of all, it has to be

15 added that here we can read a headline indicating 12/05 '92, 14:46, then a

16 sign for a telephone, 38 78 12 566 SO, Banja Luka YU, and then 02. And

17 beneath handwritten, 13351. If this could be adapted, it would be fine.

18 And then return this original immediately to the OTP.

19 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, we'll recopy the whole document for Your

20 Honours so that the fax number shows clearly. And I should add, we've

21 already requested for a new or better translation, to correct those

22 errors.

23 And while I just deal with that, we've also obtained the

24 original --

25 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Let's first conclude this, being aware that a

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

1 copy of a copy only under this reservation, it's admitted into evidence as

2 S140A and B.

3 MS. KORNER: Thank you very much. Your Honour, in respect of the

4 other document that Your Honours queried very helpfully because of the

5 inability to read parts of it, Your Honour, again we've obtained the

6 original from the vault. It is the best copy, Your Honours. And I can

7 hand that up. It was provided, I understand, by a witness. I'm not sure

8 what more we can do about it, but it may be that you're --

9 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: May it be given first to the Defence and then to

10 the Bench, please.

11 MS. KORNER: Yes. It was the provisional S136.

12 [Trial Chamber confers]

13 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Observations by the Defence?

14 MR. OSTOJIC: Similar to that which we have made previously to the

15 document identified as 65 ter 85, provisional S136. The stamp is

16 indicative, at least in my view, of the opinion that this is a stamp from

17 Bosanski Novi. It clearly shows the Bosanski with a dot and then Novi is

18 plainly written there, so again, it's based on the relevance of the

19 document, as well as the other objection that is we raised at that time

20 with respect to signature, et cetera.

21 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Bearing in mind these reservations shared by the

22 Bench, the Bench decided to admit this into evidence as S136A and B. Thank

23 you for the efforts. May it be given to the OTP, please.

24 MS. KORNER: Thank you, Your Honour.

25 Your Honour, for my own purposes, can I ask what time Your Honour

1 is intending to take a break this afternoon?

2 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

3 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: At 5 past 3.00, please.

4 MS. KORNER:

5 Q. Now, Mr. Sejmenovic, I want to move what you began to talk about

6 before the break, and that was actions you took in respect of the TO in

7 Kozarac after that meeting that you had with the SDS in around mid-May.

8 Can you tell us what actions were taken?

9 A. It was decided to complete the organisation of the TO as soon as

10 possible, and to have the TO defend the territory, to make this its

11 function. As the organisation of the TO could not be carried out as

12 ordered by the territorial staff, the only thing we could do is do it at

13 the local level, meaning at the Kozarac local commune level and other

14 local communes belonging to the same area.

15 At the local level, the people in charge of these tasks

16 intensified their activity, and they tried to organise as quickly as

17 possible the TO units and charged them with protecting the Kozarac area.

18 Following the meeting at which we had been given the ultimatum, a meeting

19 of the citizens, as we used to refer to it, was convened. A mass rally

20 attended by all prominent persons, as well as all those who came there to

21 see what the result of the meeting was. It was also attended by all local

22 leaders. The discussion at the meeting with the SDS was conveyed in full,

23 the result of our discussions with Arsic and Zeljaja, and then some people

24 came forward with their opinions on what they thought was best in terms of

25 what we should do next. And they were seeking any possibility to

1 re-establish contact with the SDS. They elaborated theories on the future

2 course of events and the possibilities that were involved. Everyone's

3 conclusion, based on the overall situation, as well as on the results of

4 the meeting that had been held was that the army was ready to attack

5 Kozarac.

6 Regardless of that, we decided to keep trying to re-establish our

7 contact with the SDS and to ask the SDS, Colonel Arsic and Zeljaja, to

8 have talks again, to resume negotiations. And at the same time,

9 endeavours were made to organise, in the best possible way, the TO members

10 and the weapons available.

11 Q. Can you pause there for a moment. Let's just deal with these two

12 possibilities. First of all, were you able to re-establish contact with

13 either Colonel Arsic or Major Zeljaja before the attack happened?

14 A. I know that attempts were made on a daily basis, and I know that

15 it was all to no avail. I know that at a certain point, those from

16 Prijedor accepted to talk, perhaps one day before the attack took place or

17 just at the beginning of the attack. I know that some people did go to

18 have talks, and I know that these people who had gone never returned. Our

19 suspicion was that they had been killed, but then they were registered at

20 missing persons for years after.

21 Q. Now, what happened then about the organisation in the best

22 possible way, as you put it, of TO members? What was actually done?

23 A. Do you mean before the attack?

24 Q. Yes. What did you, in Kozarac, in the Kozarac region, try and do?

25 A. We tried to have all the weapons available no matter if those were

1 TO weapons, police weapons, handmade weapons or illegally purchased

2 weapons. We tried to organise all of this through the TO. Formally

3 speaking, the TO could always be extended, if necessary. So we began this

4 process. It was completed, in part, at least as far as the administrative

5 part was concerned, before the attack. But the deployment of units was

6 never completed before the attack.

7 Q. Now, in order to establish -- now, I'm sorry, I'll go back one

8 rung from there. Were lists kept, first of all, of people who were

9 members of the TO?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And what about the weaponry that the TO held? Were there lists

12 available of that, or did lists have to be compiled at the time, that is,

13 between the 15th of May and the end of May?

14 A. I must provide an additional explanation concerning the function

15 of the TO before the war. In each of the local communes, the TO was

16 pursuant to past laws, it had a limited, usually very small, number of

17 members. You knew exactly who the members were and who would sign for the

18 weapons if necessary. After the general mobilisation was proclaimed by

19 the Autonomous Region of Krajina, we were facing a situation where our TO

20 had to be enlarged. We did not have any records, and I know that people

21 went searching through the local communes, the lists of voters, records of

22 the census. We tried to have these records updated to suit the needs of

23 the TO. The local authorities made another very important decision.

24 Regardless of the legal right of the TO to mobilise people regardless of

25 their will, we made a decision to enlarge the TO on a voluntary basis

1 only. We said that each and every one of the citizens should be visited

2 in person, regardless of their nationality, those who had remained in this

3 isolated area, and that they should then agree or disagree to become

4 members of the TO. And in case the person agreed, they should sign the

5 document to the effect. And as far as these persons had any weapons, the

6 weapons, too, should be recorded beside the name.

7 Those who did not want to join or were not able to join simply

8 didn't sign. And later on, they were not regarded as members of this

9 enlarged TO body. Some of the activities that I'm talking about were

10 completed in the month of May before the attack, which means that records

11 had been drawn up for the needs of the TO. Some of them were shown to a

12 number of individuals who then signed them. We recorded the existing

13 weapons and the persons who owned these weapons, and we started to assign

14 those who had agreed to join to certain units. But this was only the

15 beginning, and there was no time to complete this process. So a number of

16 units only existed on paper, and they never really existed in practice

17 because there wasn't enough time to set them up.

18 MS. KORNER: I'm now going to show the witness a couple of

19 documents in relation to this. So that may be a convenient time.

20 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: But we shouldn't forget. There was tendered a

21 map at the beginning of this session. Any objections as regards the map?

22 MR. OSTOJIC: No, Your Honour.

23 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Then this map is admitted into evidence as S142.

24 And the trial stands adjourned until 3.25.

25 --- Recess taken at 3.03 p.m.

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

1 --- On resuming at 3.30 p.m.

2 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Please be seated.

3 And please proceed. Thank you.

4 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, we've just handed out the new copies of

5 S140.

6 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Thank you.

7 MS. KORNER: Right.

8 Q. Mr. Sejmenovic, I'd now like you to look, please, at a document in

9 respect of the matters you've been discussing with the TO in Kozarac.

10 MS. KORNER: I think Your Honours will have the document in front

11 of you, if the witness could be handed -- it hasn't got a number at all at

12 the moment. It wasn't part of the 65 ter list.

13 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Is it accepted by the Defence to introduce these

14 documents? Did you have it before?

15 MR. OSTOJIC: I'm sorry, Your Honour. We have received those

16 documents, Your Honour, prior.

17 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Thank you.

18 MS. KORNER: Can I tell Your Honour, this is part of many similar

19 documents, originally, in fact, produced by the Defence in the Tadic case

20 to this witness. I'm only putting it in following Your Honours'

21 guidelines, the ones I think of particular relevance, but the Defence, of

22 course, if they want to put in others have that opportunity.

23 Q. First of all, Mr. Sejmenovic, I know you've seen these documents

24 before. Can you tell us, please, what this document is, and then we'll

25 read the top bit.

1 A. This is the document that I spoke about before the break. The

2 heading reads: "Territorial Defence staff, Kozarac." And on the

3 right-hand side: "Trnopolje Cesta," meaning the road that is a part of

4 Trnopolje which is called Cesta. It is actually the hamlet of Cesta. And

5 then you have a list of names with signatures placed next to these names

6 which means that they had put themselves at the disposal of the

7 Territorial Defence. From this we can see that some of them had weapons,

8 but the majority didn't. So that is mentioned next to the signature, the

9 fact that the person in question possessed some kind of weapon.

10 Q. Can we see over the beginning part which says: "Territorial

11 Defence staff Kozarac," there appears to be a stamp of some kind across

12 those words.

13 A. Yes. The stamp reads: "Territorial Defence, Bosnia and

14 Herzegovina; Territorial Defence staff, Kozarac."

15 Q. Was that an official stamp?

16 A. Yes, it was.

17 Q. Can we go to the last page of the document for a moment, please.

18 And can we see there number 106, your name?

19 A. Yes. Number 106, my name and my signature.

20 Q. And there's a blank by your name. Did you actually have a weapon?

21 A. No, I didn't. If I did, it would be mentioned here, the fact that

22 I had the weapon and what kind.

23 Q. Perhaps while we're on that page, some people apparently who

24 signed did have weapons. Can we go to the -- from the top -- reading from

25 the top downwards, Number 74, I think. Can you just read out what he had,

1 and we'll get the translation. Or it may be obvious.

2 A. The person listed under Number 74, Samir Cuskic had a pistol,

3 which fact is written, mentioned next to his name.

4 Q. Number 83.

5 A. Number 83, small calibre gun. It is a rifle, a sports rifle, not

6 really a military weapon. It uses small-calibre ammunition. Actually, I

7 don't know what the real purpose of this weapon is, but I know that it is

8 not commonly used by the military.

9 Q. Number 86, against that name, something seems to have been

10 written.

11 A. 86, hunting rifle.

12 Q. And that the same for number 87?

13 A. Yes. Under 87, we also have the hunting rifle.

14 Q. Number 88.

15 A. 88, an automatic rifle. It's an abbreviation, AP, which is the

16 usual acronym for an automatic rifle.

17 Q. Numbers 91 and 94 we can see had pistols. What's written by

18 numbers 95 and 6?

19 A. Also a pistol. Under 95 and 96, we read the names of Dzemal

20 Hodzic and Dervis Hodzic, they did not sign the list which means that they

21 did not make themselves available to the TO. Next to these two empty

22 spaces, you can see that they did not sign the list. I don't know what

23 the reason for this was. Maybe they were not found at home, but my

24 assumption would be that they were at home but that they did not accept to

25 sign the list. However, next to Dervis Hodzic's name, it is mentioned

1 that he possessed a carbine and a hunting rifle. A carbine is also

2 considered to be a hunting weapon. This person was a hunter.

3 Q. Number 98 had a pistol. And Number 101, Saric, what did he have?

4 A. Vjeko Saric had a pistol. 7.65 calibre.

5 Q. Can you remember roughly when you sign your name against this

6 list?

7 A. I was asked this question in the Tadic and Kovacevic cases by the

8 Court. I think that it was sometime in mid-May. Either immediately after

9 the meeting with the SDS in Prijedor or thereabouts. I'm sure that it was

10 in the month of May, more probably in the latter half of the month of May.

11 Q. And who was taking these lists round? Were people going to

12 individuals homes armed with this list, or were people asked to go into

13 the TO headquarters?

14 A. These lists were based on various records that I spoke about at

15 the Territorial Defence staff, and every individual had to be asked

16 personally whether they agreed or not. So these lists were made according

17 to the local territorial staff records. And then younger members were

18 tasked with going around people's houses and asked them whether they

19 wanted to join the TO or not and whether they had any weapons.

20 Q. Can we just, then, briefly look at the previous page, just to look

21 at the weaponry. We see pistols, and then against Number 61, we know

22 weaponry, what's written there?

23 A. 61, we read "not found at home." So probably the person who went

24 to his home did not find him, and that is why they wrote this on the list,

25 "not found at home." The same can be found at Number 66 in respect of

1 Mr. Pavle Bitinski, not found at home, which means that when these guys

2 went to his home, they did not find him there, and that's why this space

3 is empty.

4 Q. And number 67, who was at home apparently, what sort of weapon did

5 he have?

6 A. 67, MK-50, a rifle. It is also an abbreviation which means a

7 small-calibre rifle, the weapon that I described a moment ago.

8 Q. And then finally the first page of this document, just to see if

9 there are any weapons we haven't looked at before, Number 23, he had a --

10 A. Number 23 on page 1, we read M-48, and TO-MZ in brackets, which

11 means that the individual had an M-48 rifle, which is an old rifle from ^^

12 the Second World War. The Second World War, and the mention here in

13 parenthesis is that it belonged to the local commune, to the Territorial

14 Defence organisation of the local commune. This is one of the weapons

15 that I mentioned was in the possession of the TO and the local commune

16 before the war.

17 Under Item 24, we read Said Sivac, and the abbreviation PAP, a

18 semi-automatic rifle, and then in parenthesis, reserve police force, also

19 in accordance with the situation as it was before the war.

20 25, again, M-48, Territorial Defence, Bosnia and Herzegovina. 26,

21 also M-48, Territorial Defence commune, and so on and so forth. I

22 mentioned yesterday that the majority of these weapons consisted of M-48

23 rifles and a smaller of semi-automatic rifles as this one here, PAP.

24 And a very small number of automatic rifles. But this list

25 adequately reflects the situation as it was. All of these weapons are

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

1 listed here.

2 MS. KORNER: Yes. Your Honours, unless there's an objection, may

3 that be admitted as Exhibit S --

4 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Unfortunately, we have no knowledge of the

5 language, and we have to apologise for this. In order to avoid an

6 additional translation, could the witness please be so kind and identify

7 also the headlines on the two other pages, or the bottom lines.

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, the heading on the

9 second page reads as follows: "Territorial Defence, BH" and underneath,

10 "Territorial Defence staff, Kozarac." There is a stamp which reads:

11 "Territorial Defence Bosnia and Herzegovina, Territorial Defence staff

12 Kozarac." It's just that the stamp uses the abbreviations STO and TO. We

13 read the same on the third page, but not in the heading. It's on the

14 bottom of the page: "Territorial Defence staff Kozarac," and then the

15 stamp underneath: "Territorial Defence, Bosnia and Herzegovina,

16 Territorial Defence staff, Kozarac."

17 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Thank you very much. Could you please in

18 addition, having testified on this document, as I understand, already

19 several times, why a distinction is made on the headings of page 1 and

20 page 2, and page 3 have no heading at all?

21 Only if you know, of course.

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, this is a list

23 consisting of numbers and names. The list extends over three pages, and

24 the last number on page 3 is 106. It is just one and the same list of

25 persons consisting of three pages. This is the list of persons living in

1 the neighbourhood of Cesta, or the immediate vicinity of the neighbourhood

2 of Cesta.

3 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: As we could already read in the headline on page

4 2. The question was only why this different headlines on the three pages,

5 but I understand that, for good reason, you can't give any explanation.

6 Objections against the admission into evidence?

7 MR. OSTOJIC: In light of the fact that the witness has clarified

8 that this is a limited list from a town of Cesta in Trnopolje and not

9 Kozarac, as initially, I think, led by the OTP, we have no objection to

10 that, Your Honour.

11 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Admitted into evidence as S143B. The

12 explanation to be found on the transcripts of 13th of June, page 85

13 following.

14 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, may I say, if I give the impression that

15 was Kozarac, it was quite obvious it was Trnopolje, and we are in

16 possession as the Defence know of a huge number of other lists from other

17 areas of Kozarac.

18 Q. Mr. Sejmenovic, could you look now, please, at two sample other

19 documents that are connected with this, and just tell us what they are.

20 I'm afraid that the copies are bad.

21 MS. KORNER: Your Honour should have them. They weren't part,

22 again, of the 65 ter submissions. They are sort of receipt-type things,

23 and the witness could be shown them. The originals, such as they are, in

24 our possession are photocopies.

25 Q. Mr. Sejmenovic, could you tell the Court what these particular

1 documents are, of which these are a sample?

2 A. This is an invitation to the members of the Territorial Defence to

3 respond to the general mobilisation order concerning members of the

4 Territorial Defence of Bosnia and Herzegovina, the name of the TO member

5 is mentioned, and the individual in question is placing himself -- is

6 making himself available to the Territorial Defence of Bosnia and

7 Herzegovina. We have the same stamp: "Territorial Defence Bosnia and

8 Herzegovina, Territorial Defence staff Kozarac."

9 Q. Just pause for a moment, Mr. Sejmenovic. Can you, if necessary, I

10 hadn't quite appreciated that these copies are quite so bad. We can show

11 you another one. Can you read so that there is a translation, although,

12 in fact, I note we have got a rough translation which we don't think we've

13 handed in, what does the heading say?

14 A. The heading reads as follows: "Territorial Defence of the

15 Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina, Kozarac Territorial Defence staff."

16 This Territorial Defence staff covered the area which comprised Trnopolje,

17 Kamicani, and other neighbouring villages of the town of Kozarac. There

18 is a stamp of the BH Territorial Defence and Kozarac Territorial Defence

19 staff below the text. There is also a handwritten remark. "Nije

20 Obavezan" which means "not obliged".

21 Q. Can you just read the printed text, if you can; if not, I'll

22 simply hand you a -- we have one version which is somewhat better?

23 A. The typed text is quite clear. The title is "callup on general

24 mobilisation of the Kozarac local commune addressed to the member of the

25 BH TO, and then we have the name of the individual in question, Sakib

1 Heganovic. Failure to respond to this call shall result -- shall entail

2 criminal responsibility pursuant to the law of the Republic of Bosnia and

3 Herzegovina."

4 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Just for clarification, you read out the

5 document bearing the name of a Mr. Heganovic. Right?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

7 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Opposed to this, can you identify the

8 distinction to the other document with the name of Hodzic, where

9 apparently before the word "Kozarac" in the first line, there is no MZ.

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The heading also includes the

11 abbreviation "Territorial Defence staff, Kozarac." And in the upper left

12 corner, we read: "Territorial Defence of the Republic of Bosnia and

13 Herzegovina" and underneath: "Territorial Defence staff in Kozarac."

14 It's not a perfect copy, but it's still legible, at least the one that I

15 have.

16 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Right. But my question was if you can compare

17 the beginning of the first entire line of the two documents before us, the

18 first -- the fourth word in the first document, Heganovic reads "MZ" and

19 in the other document only "Kozarac." Is it correct, or is it just a

20 problem of copy?

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The same abbreviation can be found

22 here as well. I agree it's not fully legible, but I think it's clear

23 enough, the abbreviation "MZ" can also be found on the other copy, the one

24 that I have in front of me unlike the first document, the remark

25 handwritten on the document is different. It says: "Did not want to

1 receive the callup."

2 MS. KORNER: Right.

3 Q. Let's take this if we may if stages.

4 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, can I say, we have a number different

5 versions. They all have MZ on them. It's just that this is a terrible

6 copy, I'm afraid.

7 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Yes.

8 MS. KORNER:

9 Q. Can we just make absolutely clear, in the Hodzic callup paper, the

10 -- what has been written on that, can you just tell us again?

11 A. The document here says that he refused to receive the callup

12 paper. This text is handwritten. Above this remark, we read:

13 "Trnopolje - Elezi" which means that the callup concerned the area of

14 Elezi, actually the hamlet of Elezi which was part of the area of

15 Trnopolje. But it still belonged to the Kozarac Territorial Defence staff

16 in terms of command structure.

17 Q. All right. And on the Beganovic, it looks like Heganovic, but I

18 think you said it was Beganovic, what's written?

19 A. You mean the added text?

20 Q. Yes. The handwriting.

21 A. "Not obliged" and then there is a signature probably belonging to

22 the person who took the callup paper to this individual and who then made

23 this remark. The words --

24 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreters' remark, the words "not obliged"

25 could be interpreted as "not a conscript." But we don't know without the

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

1 context.

2 MS. KORNER: Okay. Thank you.

3 Q. Well, maybe you can help. Mr. Sejmenovic, the interpretation has

4 been given to us as either "not obliged" or "not a conscript." What do

5 you understand that wording to mean?

6 A. It can be interpreted as follows: Not liable for military

7 service.

8 Q. And these documents, were they sent out after the list that we've

9 seen was compiled or before?

10 A. I think that they were sent out after the list had been compiled,

11 but I don't think that it was sent to all of the individuals whose names

12 are in the list, because there was no time for that.

13 Q. Yes.

14 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, unless there's any other aspect you'd

15 like me to take the witness through, may I ask that those be admitted.

16 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Objections?

17 MR. OSTOJIC: No, Your Honour.

18 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Then the document with the name of "Heganovic,"

19 or "Beganovic," we know what it's about, is admitted as S144B. And the

20 other one with Hodzic, S145B. Translation is not necessary due to the

21 fact that we have the necessary references on today's, the 13th of June,

22 transcript, page 90 and following. Thank you.

23 MS. KORNER:

24 Q. I think you told us more or less, Mr. Sejmenovic, but how far did

25 any organisation of the TO get before the attack took place on the Kozarac

1 area, in the Kozarac area at the end of May?

2 A. We were only able to do very few things, more specifically, the TO

3 staff only managed to set up certain units in part. And these units were

4 only deployed in certain places, a number of places around Kozarac, not in

5 all places around Kozarac, and especially not in the direction of Omarska,

6 Trnov Gaj, and the Serb areas, Petkovici, Sajaci, Petrov Gaj and so on.

7 Q. You told us right at the beginning of your testimony on this

8 aspect of the case that the discussion that took place at the meeting was

9 how to mount a defence. Was there any intention raised at that meeting or

10 afterwards to mount an offensive against the Serbs?

11 A. No, never. It was even pointless to entertain such ideas

12 considering the weapons that we had and the tanks, Howitzers and mortars

13 that we were up against and that surrounded us. Also, in view of the fact

14 that our physical communication was cut off to any other area into which

15 we could potentially evacuate the population.

16 Q. All right. I want to move now to the first of those attacks. How

17 did the attacks begin?

18 A. The attacks began after an incident that occurred in a different

19 part of Prijedor. I was then in the Kozarac area, more specifically in

20 Trnopolje. An incident occurred. There was shooting either in Hambarine

21 or along the road between Prijedor and Hambarine. At the local commune

22 building, we heard conversations by the army and the police through radio

23 set. And soon afterwards, that part of Prijedor was shelled. We did not

24 have any insight into what exactly was happening there, but we learned

25 that at the same time, an ultimatum was repeated to the TO in Kozarac and

1 that another deadline was given several hours, that a number of people

2 were to be sent again to negotiate the surrender of weapons. But also

3 that team failed to return from Prijedor.

4 And we know that on the following day, so perhaps within 48 hours

5 of the event, artillery fire started against Kozarac and its surroundings.

6 Q. Before the artillery fire began on Kozarac and its surroundings,

7 did you or anyone else, to your knowledge, attempt to negotiate or do

8 anything with the Serbs?

9 A. I didn't. Someone else did. The Kozarac TO, we had an open

10 telephone line with the majors down there, with Zeljaja, with Miskovic,

11 and probably also with Simo Drljaca, although I'm not sure. As far as I

12 can remember, it was the police commander in Kozarac called Osme or Osman

13 who talked to them. And I know that he and a number of other people went

14 to have negotiations with them on the modalities for the weapons to be

15 returned, to determine points at which weapons will be collected, how

16 these weapons will be delivered. They went there, but they never came

17 back. They were kept there, and it turned out later on that they had been

18 killed.

19 Q. All right. When did the attack on Kozarac actually begin?

20 A. The attack on Kozarac began, I think, about the 24th of May. I

21 know that it began about 11.00 a.m., and that it came from all directions.

22 Q. Where were you when the attack began?

23 A. I was in Trnopolje at that time, close to the local commune

24 building.

25 Q. And at what stage did you become aware of the attack itself,

1 immediately it began?

2 A. As soon as it began, as soon as the shelling began, it was obvious

3 that fire had been opened, and that the threats were beginning to be

4 carried out. Kozarac is not very far from Trnopolje, perhaps 4 kilometres

5 of air distance, up to 4 and a half.

6 Q. All right. I think it may be at this stage that you have in front

7 of you the map that's already been exhibited.

8 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: 142?

9 MS. KORNER: Not the one today, Your Honour. It's the one that we

10 exhibited earlier on. Your Honour, I'm going to be told what number it

11 is. It hasn't been exhibited. I thought had already been exhibited.

12 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Provisional S146.

13 May I ask the Defence, you have this map?

14 MR. OSTOJIC: We do. They did provide it to us, Your Honour, yes.

15 MS. KORNER: We can give the Defence temporarily another copy if

16 they can't find theirs. And we have it now on the ELMO.

17 Q. We can see there Kozarac is marked, and Trnopolje -- you're

18 indicating.

19 A. What I'm pointing at here, that's Kozarac and the surrounding

20 area. This is Trnopolje and its surroundings -- with the surrounding

21 villages belonging to the area.

22 Q. At the same time, Mr. Sejmenovic, I'm going to ask you to look at

23 some overhead photographs, aerial photographs I should say, that were

24 taken, in fact, last year.

25 MS. KORNER: And I'm told everyone has them, Your Honour, but it

1 makes them clearer, I think. I'll read the number. The number of the

2 first one I'm going to ask the witness to look at is 01002426.

3 I can hand -- we have got a spare copy for the witness. Your

4 Honour, I should add, these were taken in the year 2000, and I'm asked if

5 I can -- I gather the photographs are all part of the same exhibit, S15.

6 So perhaps we could make that --

7 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: If the registry could assist me, the new number,

8 the next number within the bundle of S15.

9 THE REGISTRAR: This will be S15-35.

10 MS. KORNER: Thank you.

11 Q. Now, can you indicate, Mr. Sejmenovic, firstly the centre of the

12 picture, what's that, the photograph?

13 A. The centre of the photograph where I'm pointing now, that's the

14 Kozarac area. This is the town of Kozarac. And this is the wider Kozarac

15 area. This is looking from the Kozara Mount. At the far right end, you

16 can see a section of the town of Prijedor. And on the left-hand side, you

17 can see the road to Trnopolje. What I'm pointing at now is the Trnopolje

18 area.

19 Q. If -- so, can we just -- is that the road we can see running from

20 where you indicated Prijedor along, and if you just trace it so that

21 everybody can see the Prijedor Road.

22 A. Yes, I can. I'm tracing it now. This is the Prijedor/Banja Luka

23 Road. So it goes from Prijedor, and I'm tracing it now, passing through

24 Kozarac in part, continuing on towards Omarska, and then on to Banja Luka.

25 Q. All right. And so if you were coming from Prijedor, in order to

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

1 get into the, as it were, the main street -- I know that's a horrible

2 Americanism, but the main part of the town -- would you turn left at the

3 sort of crossroads we can just make out?

4 A. If you approach Kozarac this way on your way into the town, you

5 turn left coming from Prijedor. Coming from Banja Luka, you turn right to

6 get into Kozarac.

7 Q. And then we can see, as you've indicated, Trnopolje over on the

8 left -- top left of the photograph.

9 A. The road to Trnopolje, I'm tracing it now with the pointer. And

10 here it reaches Trnopolje itself.

11 MS. KORNER: It may be, Your Honour, it's worth looking at one

12 more photograph. Could the witness be handed photograph number 01002428.

13 Again, we have a spare copy if perhaps the witness can...

14 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: For the record, S15-36.

15 MS. KORNER:

16 Q. Now -- yes, if you tell us what we're looking at now.

17 A. Your Honour, this is a photograph of the same place but looking

18 from the opposite direction. This is from the direction of Trnopolje. The

19 photo comprises the Kozarac area, and the town of Prijedor. And the

20 photograph we had before was taken from the opposite end. The road that I

21 showed on the previous photograph can be seen here clearly. I'm tracing

22 it now. And the Kozarac/Trnopolje Road can also be seen clearly. I am

23 tracing it, and then it continues further on.

24 Q. Right. Now, when the attack on Kozarac took place, were you able

25 to see where the artillery was stationed?

1 A. Most of the artillery positions had been observed earlier, as I've

2 already mentioned. You could clearly hear them, and you could hear where

3 artillery fire was coming from. And we had known that there were

4 artillery positions there. That was from the direction of the quarry.

5 It's a bit further off from where I'm pointing at now, from the direction

6 of Benkovac, from the direction of Prijedor, that is, Urije, mortar fire

7 from this direction I'm tracing now. So that's towards Kozarac. Also,

8 artillery fire from the direction of Petrov Gaj and Omarska had been

9 observed, also towards Kozarac.

10 These were the positions observed by either myself or by other

11 eyewitnesses who said they had seen them, they had noticed them. Perhaps

12 there were other positions, too, but I couldn't say anything about it.

13 Sometimes you couldn't distinguish because fire -- shells were coming from

14 all possible directions, and all you can hear all around you was just

15 thunder. Two shells were fired from this direction, from the direction of

16 Ribnjak, Tomasica Hill in the direction of Kozarac. And that's where I'm

17 pointing now, and these shells fell on Trnopolje. And neither Kozarac nor

18 Trnopolje were shelled from this position afterwards. But we had known,

19 since a month at least before the event took place, that there were

20 artillery positions there.

21 Q. Yes. You told us that yesterday, Mr. Sejmenovic. Thank you.

22 MS. KORNER: Unless Your Honours have any questions about the

23 photographs, I'll take them away.

24 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Any objections as regards the map and the two

25 photographs?

1 MR. OSTOJIC: No objections, Your Honour.

2 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Admitted into evidence, the map S146. The

3 photograph ending with number 2426 as S15-35. The one ending with 2428 as

4 S15-36.

5 MS. KORNER: Thank you very much, Your Honour.

6 Q. All right. Now, you told us, Mr. Sejmenovic, you were in

7 Trnopolje, and you heard and saw the attack. What did you actually do

8 yourself, after the attack began?

9 A. After the attack began, it was a heavy attack, a very intense

10 attack. There was chaos. Radio communications between the TO staff in

11 Kozarac and the local staff in Trnopolje were cut off. At the same time,

12 the Serbian radio in Prijedor reported that long military convoys were

13 headed for Kozarac from the Prijedor direction down the Prijedor/Trnopolje

14 Road as well as down the Prijedor/Kozara/Trnopolje/Banja Luka Road. As no

15 one had enough fuel to use cars in the local commune, we had run out of

16 fuel. I rode my bike to Kozarac to see what was happening and see what

17 the results of the negotiations were. I managed to just almost reach

18 Kozarac but stopped short, perhaps 3 or 400 metres away from it where

19 shells were falling. That means the petrol station and the crossroads on

20 the road to Kozarac. Everything was on fire. I stayed there for a while,

21 thinking that the shelling may stop. I wanted to enter Kozarac, but the

22 shelling didn't stop, so I just returned by bike to the TO staff. That's

23 where all communication with the staff in Kozarac stopped.

24 Later on, I found out that communications had broken down with the

25 staff in other places, too, and that's when the whole thing began to fall

1 apart.

2 Q. Now, had there been any warning at all, as far as you were aware,

3 through the radio or through loud speakers, megaphones that the town was

4 about to be shelled at that moment?

5 A. From what I know, and from what I've heard, there were some

6 warnings that the army would be passing through there, that the weapons

7 were to be turned in, that the Trnopolje area would be a safety zone, and

8 that people could go there for shelter. However, as far as public

9 announcements, warnings, are concerned, warnings by the army or the Crisis

10 Staff through the radio, no mention was made of shelling or threats of

11 shelling. They only talked about the extremists and about the ultimatum

12 to the extremists to hand in their weapons.

13 Q. Was any opportunity given to the civilian population, that is,

14 nonmembers of the TO, women, old men, over age, or children, that they

15 should leave the area?

16 A. They were given an opportunity, that is, there was an announcement

17 through the radio, but that was only after the shelling had stopped. And

18 the shelling went on continually for 48 hours without interruption, two

19 days and two nights on end. During that time, many, many civilians were

20 killed. The Serbian army gave us no respite for civilians to be evacuated

21 and to withdraw. Some of the civilians were evacuated, but only those

22 living on -- in the fringe areas of the town of Kozarac. The population

23 was evacuated in a very chaotic way. The population above Kozarac

24 withdrew towards Trnopolje, and population was running towards Kozarac

25 from Trnopolje in a convoy. These two convoys met halfway down the road,

1 and I happened to be there.

2 In that period, any sort of traffic or transport was blocked

3 between Kozarac and Trnopolje, in either direction.

4 Q. You've told us that when the shelling began, you got as far as the

5 crossroads, and you could see that houses were on fire. By the time the

6 shelling ended, were you able to see, after the 48 hours you've spoken

7 about, what the level of destruction was?

8 A. The moment I reached Kozarac was about 40 minutes after the

9 shelling had begun. The distance from which I was watching, I could only

10 see smoke everywhere, and I could see houses falling and bursting at the

11 seams. I could not see the full scale of destruction from my position. We

12 could only see for ourselves after two or three days when the infantry got

13 into Kozarac and started burning houses one by one.

14 Q. That's what -- I'm sorry. That's what I asked you. When you

15 finally got into Kozarac, what was the level of destruction that you saw?

16 A. After the shelling had stopped, which was around noon or early

17 afternoon on the second day from the beginning of the shelling, and those

18 who had been wounded, those who survived were evacuated. They withdrew to

19 Trnopolje or to Kozara. But most of the population was concentrated

20 between Trnopolje and Kozarac itself, and I can point this out for you on

21 the map.

22 People slept in this place that they had run to, on the fields, on

23 tractors in case they had enough fuel to start their tractors. There were

24 thousands of people watching the Serbian infantry enter the town from the

25 direction of Prijedor, burning the villages of Mujkanovici and then the

1 village of Kozarusa, and then part of Kozarac from the direction of

2 Kozarusa. They were building house by house, so there was a huge number

3 of houses burning, ablaze at the same time, practically along the whole

4 road approaching Kozarac. The left-hand side on the road was burning in

5 the length of perhaps 1 kilometre.

6 The day after, you could see that it was all singed. It was

7 barren. There was nothing left. Only the smoke. Many people were burned

8 alive in their houses. Some who had managed to escape told us about who

9 was burning the houses. Some were killed on the run; some survived and

10 reached this refuge. And they told us that soldiers would come and throw

11 hand grenades through the window into the houses, and in 5 to 10 minutes,

12 the whole house would just burn down. So this was done by an infantry

13 unit.

14 Q. I'm just going to ask you, Mr. Sejmenovic, because I think Your

15 Honour said you wanted to rise at 4.30 today. Just to look at the map

16 very quickly and indicate to us the area, the map you had before, S146.

17 If we put it on the ELMO. Where you say the people were gathering.

18 A. People gathered in this place here, excuse me. People from the

19 fringe areas, the areas that were not being shelled intensely started out

20 and reached this place that I'm pointing at now. People from Trnopolje

21 started out in the same direction, but from the opposite side, believing

22 that they would be able to reach Kozara and hide in the woods. So these

23 two groups met in this area. Several thousand people, several thousands

24 of people were here in the open, women, children, vehicles. The most

25 intense shelling took place here in this part. Kozarac itself, part of

1 Kamicani, the whole of Kozarusa, and parts of Mujkanovici. The third

2 night, they burned the villages. The infantry walked into the village

3 from here, and around 10.00 in the evening, they reached this part of

4 Kozarac, so they started burning houses in this part, in the late evening

5 hours. And from this position that I'm pointing at now, we could see the

6 soldiers run by the houses and we could see people trying to escape

7 because there was nothing between us, and there was heavy fire in the

8 background. So this whole area that I'm pointing at now was burning. It

9 was ablaze.

10 Q. Yes, thank you very much, Mr. Sejmenovic.

11 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: This concludes the 35th day of the Prosecutor's

12 case. And it is for me to express my special thanks to the booths for the

13 extremely hard work of this week. And we'll resume on Monday, quarter to

14 2.00, with the trial. And we'll hear the ongoing examination-in-chief of

15 the witness before us on Monday no later than 3.30.

16 MS. KORNER: Your Honour said 1.45.

17 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Quarter to 2.00. Quarter to 2.00.

18 MS. KORNER: I thought it was 2.15 Monday. When I said an hour

19 and a half, I know we're not sitting until 2.15.

20 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Wait, we have it before us so there is no

21 uncertainty. Sorry, it was my fault. 2.15, the trial starts. And we

22 continue with the hearing of the witness before us no later than 15.45, as

23 you mentioned before. Right?

24 MS. KORNER: Yes, yes. Thank you very much, Your Honour.

25 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at

1 4.33 p.m., to be reconvened on

2 Monday, the 17th day of June, 2002,

3 at 2.15 p.m.

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25