International Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 5706

1 Monday, 8 July 2002

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 9.09 a.m.

5 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Please be seated. And good morning, everybody.

6 May we please hear the case.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning. This is Case Number IT-97-24-T, the

8 Prosecutor versus Milomir Stakic.

9 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: And the appearances for the OTP.

10 MR. KOUMJIAN: Good morning, Your Honours. Nicholas Koumjian,

11 Kapila Waidyaratne, assisted by Ruth Karper for the Prosecution.

12 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Good morning.

13 MR. LUKIC: Good morning, Your Honours. Branko Lukic for the

14 Defence.

15 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Thank you. Before we start with today's

16 witness, as time is of essence, I have to announce the following

17 decision. It's the order to the Registry of the Tribunal to provide

18 documents from the 5th of July.

19 This Trial Chamber II of the International Tribunal for the

20 prosecution of persons responsible for serious violations of international

21 humanitarian law committed in the Territory of the Former Yugoslavia since

22 1991 ("International Tribunal").

23 Being seized of a motion filed by the Office of the Prosecutor on

24 2nd of July, 2002, seeking an order for subpoena duces tecum to the United

25 Nations Detention Unit to provide:

Page 5707

1 (1) original records or documents in the form of receipts,

2 requests, medical records, and letters signed or handwritten

3 by Milomir Stakic since his detention, but not to include

4 any communications to or from Defence counsel or Defence

5 counsel investigators;.

6 (2) original documents such as driver's license, passport, or

7 similar documents that were in the possession of Milomir

8 Stakic upon his arrival at the Detention Unit.

9 Noting that the Defence counsel for Dr. Stakic have contested the

10 authenticity of signatures alleged to be those of Dr. Stakic, which appear

11 on a number of documentary exhibits tendered by the Prosecution in its

12 case.

13 Noting the order of 28 June, 2002, issued by this Chamber to the

14 Prosecution to appoint a forensic handwriting examiner to assess the

15 question whether the signatures which appear on the signed documents are

16 those of Dr. Stakic, as the Prosecution contends.

17 Noting that the Defence indicated in open Court that Dr. Stakic

18 had chosen to exercise his right not to provide a sample of his

19 handwriting to the Prosecution.

20 Noting that the Prosecution in its motion submits that comparative

21 material "would be helpful" in relation to any analysis of the signatures

22 which appear on the signed documents.

23 Further noting the Prosecution's submission that the United

24 Nations Detention Unit cannot be expected to release the requested

25 materials solely on the basis of a request from the Prosecution.

Page 5708

1 Noting, however, that the Prosecution did not insist on the

2 issuance of a subpoena, rather it was accepted that on order from the

3 Chamber would suffice.

4 Noting Rule 97 of the Rules of Procedure and Evidence which

5 provides that "all communications between lawyer and client shall be

6 regarded as privileged, and consequently not subject to disclosure at

7 trial unless: (i) the client consents to such disclosure; or (ii) the

8 client has voluntarily disclosed the content of the communication to a

9 third party and the third party then gives evidence of that disclosure."

10 Noting the general principle of proportionality, which states

11 that: a measure in public international law is proportional only when

12 suitable, necessary, and when its degree and scope remain in a reasonable

13 relationship to the envisaged target; that procedural measures should

14 never be capricious or excessive; and that it is sufficient to use a more

15 lenient measure, it must be applied.

16 Noting Rule 54 of the rules pursuant to which "a judge or a Trial

17 Chamber may issue such orders, summonses, subpoenas, warrants, and

18 transfer orders as may be necessary for the purposes of an investigate or

19 for the preparation or conduct of the trial."

20 Having heard the parties on this issue in Court on 3rd and 4th

21 July, 2002.

22 Noting that the Defence for Dr. Stakic does not object to that

23 portion of the Prosecution's motion included in paragraph 2 in which it

24 seeks an order to the United Nations Detention Unit to provide "original

25 documents such as driver's license, passport, or similar documents that

Page 5709

1 were in the possession of Milomir Stakic upon his arrival at the Detention

2 Unit."

3 Noting, however, that the Defence for Dr. Stakic argued in

4 relation to the materials requested in paragraph 1 of the Prosecution's

5 motion, that the subpoena is overbroad and overreaching and that such

6 materials are protected by various privileges including the lawyer/client

7 privilege.

8 Noting further that in relation to this material, the Defence for

9 Dr. Stakic argues that the Prosecution have failed to establish that

10 issuance of such an order is necessary as is required under the rules.

11 Noting that the parties have consented to the procedure set forth

12 below, pursuant to which an ad litem judge of Trial Chamber II, not being

13 a judge in this case, would review the requested materials before they are

14 forwarded to the Prosecution.

15 Considering that it is the opinion of the Chamber that, following

16 the decision of the Trial Chamber in the case Prosecutor versus Zejnil

17 Delalic et al, where it was held that an accused may not be compelled

18 under the statute to provide a sample of his handwriting for the purpose

19 of assisting the Prosecution in its investigation of the crimes charged

20 against him, the accused, in not providing the Prosecution with a sample

21 of his handwriting, has exercised his legitimate right to remain silent in

22 these proceedings.

23 Considering that, in order for the forensic handwriting examiner

24 to carry out his assigned task of analyzing the signatures on the signed

25 documents, he or she must necessarily have access to sufficiently large

Page 5710

1 sample of Dr. Stakic's original handwriting and signatures.

2 Considering that the Chamber is fully alive to the need to respect

3 the lawyer/client privilege as set forth in Rule 97 of the Rules.

4 Considering further that applying the principle of

5 proportionality, especially in terms of necessity, and proportionality in

6 its narrowest sense, the Trial Chamber finds that where in relation to any

7 of the requested materials, it appears that the accused's right to privacy

8 may be predominant, for example, letters to a medical practitioner,

9 diaries, such material should be excluded pursuant to the procedure

10 outlined below.

11 Considering that the Registry of the Tribunal responsible for the

12 management of the United Nations Detention Unit is a neutral organ, and

13 therefore it cannot be expected to provide the requested materials solely

14 on the basis of a request from the Prosecution.

15 Considering, however, that a subpoena duces tecum seems not to be

16 appropriate and necessary in these circumstances.

17 Considering that on the basis of the foregoing that it is the

18 opinion of the Trial Chamber that the provision of the requested materials

19 are necessary for the conduct of the trial within the meaning of Rule 54

20 of the Rules and accordingly that the requested materials may be subject

21 of on order of this Chamber.

22 Pursuant to Rule 54 of the Rules, hereby directs the United

23 Nations Detention Unit to, first, identify any materials already within

24 the possession of the United Nations Detention Unit (it is explicitly

25 excluding material in Dr. Stakic's cell unit) comprising, one, original

Page 5711

1 records or documents in the form of receipts, requests, and letters signed

2 or handwritten by Milomir Stakic since his detention, other than

3 communications between Dr. Stakic and any member of his Defence team; two,

4 original documents such as driver's license, passport, or similar

5 documents that were in the possession of Milomir Stakic upon his arrival

6 at the Detention Unit. Second, to place these materials in a container

7 which shall then be sealed and transferred to the premises of the

8 International Tribunal (Chambers).

9 And further request that the container be opened only in the

10 presence of Judge Per Lindholm and counsel for Dr. Stakic who shall

11 observe the following procedure: The appointed judge shall review the

12 documents on the basis of the foregoing criteria (it is the lawyer/client

13 privilege and proportionality) and exclude certain materials accordingly

14 (the so-called excluded materials); second, at any time, the Stakic

15 Defence may object to a document or any part thereof being included in the

16 materials which are to be forwarded to the Prosecution (if necessary,

17 portions of the documents may be severed); third, the appointed judge

18 shall be the final arbiter (instead of the Chamber) for the purposes of

19 this procedure of reviewing, undoubtedly leaving, however, all remedies

20 available under these Rules untouched; four, at the end of this procedure,

21 the excluded material shall be returned to the container, which shall be

22 sealed and immediately returned to the premises of the United Nations

23 Detention Unit. All the remaining documents shall be provided to the

24 Prosecution in order to be forwarded to the appointed forensic handwriting

25 examiner.

Page 5712

1 I hope that this order can be and will be enforced forthwith, that

2 as soon as possible, the "to be appointed" handwriting examiner has these

3 samples in his hands.

4 In reviewing the material, I saw that regarding List 4 of the OTP,

5 List 4 of documents, there was a promise that would follow a new updated

6 List 4.

7 MR. KOUMJIAN: We have that available, but I would indicate it's

8 not going to be the last list. If Your Honour wants to call the next one

9 List 5, that's fine. But we have the list of documents that were signed,

10 we believe, by Dr. Stakic that are not on the other lists, 1, 2, or 3.

11 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Thank you. It's just for the purposes to have

12 an overview which further documents needs to be read out in open

13 courtroom.

14 And then we had one other document that should be translated. Do

15 you remember we saw an interview on a videoclip, and it was done in

16 English and B/C/S simultaneously, and also here it was promised that we

17 would receive an interpretation of the entire document.

18 MR. KOUMJIAN: Does Your Honour mean the French translation?

19 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: No, there was -- it's already now two weeks

20 ago. We saw an interview in part in B/C/S and in part in English.

21 MR. KOUMJIAN: I'm not sure which video that is. That was a

22 video?

23 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: It was a video.

24 MR. KOUMJIAN: Not the one that we played Friday.

25 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: No, no. It was another one. And I can probably

Page 5713

1 have to come back to this, having then the correct exhibit number.

2 MR. KOUMJIAN: It's possible that it was -- I'm not sure I was

3 even in Court when that was played, but it's possible it's the outtakes or

4 it's part of the -- taken from the video that was played on Friday.

5 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: No, it was a separate one. I have to come back

6 to this. I thought it was self-evident which number this was.

7 And finally, what about the still missing colour copies?

8 MR. KOUMJIAN: They are not back yet. It's in progress.

9 Hopefully by tomorrow we will have them.

10 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: And finally from my point, you will receive

11 today the scheduling order until December 13th. Hopefully we don't need

12 all this time. But there you can see, of course, all the days needed

13 until -- may be needed until 19th of September, and then leaving it open

14 but taking care that on a provisional basis, the Courtroom II is available

15 for this case until the end of this year.

16 Anything else from your side? Nothing, nothing. Okay.

17 Then let's turn to our witness of today. May I, whilst she is

18 brought in, ask, she is a protected witness. Which kind of protection is

19 the actual one?

20 MR. WAIDYARATNE: Good morning, Your Honours. She has a pseudonym

21 and facial distortion. She has been granted those protective measures,

22 Your Honour.

23 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Shall we start in closed session for the name

24 and so on?

25 MR. WAIDYARATNE: It would be appropriate, Your Honour, with your

Page 5714

1 permission, if we could start in private session.

2 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: In private session. I see no objection. The

3 next pseudonym available is, please?

4 THE REGISTRAR: It will be Witness V, Your Honour.

5 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Witness V already.

6 [The witness entered court]

7 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Good morning, Witness. Can you hear me in a

8 language you understand?

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I can.

10 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Thank you. And would you please be so kind and

11 take the solemn declaration.

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. I solemnly declare that I will

13 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

14 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Thank you. You may be seated. And may I, first

15 of all, apologise that we are calling you here in the courtroom only

16 "Witness." You may know it's for your personal protection only, that

17 nobody hears your name and your name can't be read in our documents. And

18 we start now in private session. That means, that nobody can hear what is

19 said outside the courtroom.

20 So please. You may start.

21 [Private session]

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 5715

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Page 5716

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23 [Open session]

24 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Confirmed.

25 MR. WAIDYARATNE: Your Honour, may I be permitted to show this

Page 5717

1 piece of paper which contains the name of the witness and get her to

2 confirm that it is -- which could become an exhibit thereafter, and should

3 be under seal. Thank you.

4 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Please. Could we have the exhibit number.

5 THE REGISTRAR: It will be Exhibit S188, marked confidential.

6 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Admitted into evidence, S188, confidential.

7 MR. WAIDYARATNE: Thank you, Your Honour.

8 Q. Now, Witness, I would take you to 1992, the month of April. Where

9 were you in April in 1992?

10 A. I went with my youngest son to my daughter Mediha because she had

11 gotten married and had given birth to a child.

12 Q. Where was Mediha residing at that time?

13 A. In Brkovica.

14 Q. Is it in Bosanska Krupa?

15 A. Near Bosanska Krupa, yes, the village of Brkovica.

16 Q. In the month of April, you were staying with your daughter Mediha

17 in Brkovica. During this time, or in early May, did you hear or get to

18 know about the Serb takeover in the municipality of Prijedor?

19 A. Yes. From my daughter Mediha's friend, I heard that there was a

20 Serb takeover in Prijedor. I began to panic, and I tried to call my

21 brothers who worked in the Celpak factory. I got through to my brother.

22 I asked him how our mother was doing, whereupon he said that I should not

23 wreck my nerves over her because she was all right. I began to panic and

24 I wanted to go home, but I couldn't. I stayed for a month. There was no

25 bus to take via Krupa or to go to Kljuc. After a month, I returned home

Page 5718

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Page 5719

1 with my youngest son.

2 Q. Now, Witness, you said that you panicked and called your brother

3 who was working at Celpak. Now, you inquired about your mother. Did you

4 inquire as to what was happening in the village of Carakovo?

5 A. I was not supposed to, because I knew more or less what was

6 happening, so that's why I was not in a position to ask. I just asked

7 about our mother, and he said she was all right.

8 Q. Now, did you call your brother once for the second time?

9 A. Yes, but I didn't get through. I got through to a Serb man. Then

10 I asked to speak to my brother, and he said: "He's not around." And I

11 asked to speak to anyone from Carakovo. And he told me there were no

12 people from Carakovo around there.

13 Q. Now, you called your brother who was working at the Celpak

14 factory. Am I correct?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Now, you said that you returned after a month. Is it correct if I

17 say that you returned to Carakovo on the 7th of May, 1992?

18 A. That's correct.

19 Q. When you called your brother for the second time, the person who

20 answered the phone said that there was no one from Carakovo. Did you ask

21 as to what had happened to them?

22 A. No, I didn't. I just said "thanks," and hung up. I didn't ask

23 any questions. I saw many people from Krupa who had arrived there, and

24 they told me that Krupa was in Serb hands and they told me what they did

25 there. So I had some idea what was going on in Prijedor.

Page 5720

1 Q. Now, you said that you returned to Carakovo with your youngest

2 son. How old was he?

3 A. He was, I think, 12.

4 Q. Now, Witness coming to Carakovo, you had lived there many, many

5 years. Do you --

6 A. I was born and I lived in Carakovo.

7 Q. Did you know the village well?

8 A. Of course. That's where I was born. That's where I was raised.

9 My parents were born in Carakovo also.

10 Q. Did you know approximately as to how many houses were there in

11 Carakovo?

12 A. Between eight and nine hundred houses.

13 Q. What was the majority of the ethnic group that was in Carakovo?

14 A. Muslims, all Muslims. Five villages in a row all Muslims except

15 for two Croatian house inside Carakovo.

16 Q. Now, you said five villages. Could you explain, tell the Chamber,

17 as to what were these villages?

18 A. Zecovi, Carakovo, Hambarine, Rakovcani, Rizvanovici, Biscani,

19 there were some other villages there, Sreca, and so on.

20 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... that was --

21 A. Yeah.

22 Q. Thank you.

23 Now, after you returned to Carakovo, you lived with your family in

24 the house, in your house?

25 A. Yes.

Page 5721

1 Q. Did you move around? Did you go to the Prijedor town?

2 A. One day, I went to Prijedor. I couldn't go down the main road,

3 the Sanski Most/Prijedor Road. We had to go through Gomjenica. And then

4 for the first time, I saw a checkpoint in the village of Gomjenica. We

5 were stopped there by Serb soldiers. They asked for our documents and

6 asked what we were going to Prijedor for. We said we were going there to

7 get some supplies. They said we shouldn't stay for longer than one hour,

8 and then we had to return through the same checkpoint, which is what we

9 did. We returned. They let us through the same checkpoint, and I

10 returned home the same day. After eight days, I went to pick up my

11 mother's pension. They told us to go to Tukovi. In Tukovi, I saw a tank,

12 camouflaged in leaves, and the barrel was pointed towards Carakovo and

13 Hambarine. We began to panic. We went to the post office. They didn't

14 give us any money because they said the money was to be used for the Serb

15 army, for fuel.

16 Then we went back home. And from that day, every day, they came

17 looking for something, fuel, vehicles, cattle.

18 Q. Witness, can I interrupt you and ask you a few more questions and

19 clarify certain points. Now, you spoke about a checkpoint in Gomjenica.

20 How far is Gomjenica from Carakovo?

21 A. I think about 2 kilometres probably, around 2 kilometres. Over

22 the Sana, there's a bridge to Prijedor.

23 Q. And you spoke about another checkpoint in Tukovi where you saw a

24 tank. Now, how far was this checkpoint from Carakovo?

25 A. Perhaps a kilometre and a half, because between Prijedor and

Page 5722

1 Carakovo, there are 2 kilometres, maybe a kilometre and a half. That's

2 where the tank was parked.

3 Q. This was on the Sanski Most/Prijedor main road. Is it correct?

4 A. Yes, yes, that's next to the River Sana. On the right-hand side.

5 Q. And you spoke about people in uniforms. Did you recognise what

6 uniforms, what were the uniforms? Could you explain, describe.

7 A. Camouflage uniforms, camouflage uniforms. I also recognised the

8 people who were manning the checkpoints in Carakovo, the Sanski Road, the

9 road to Prijedor.

10 Q. Do you recall any names of those people?

11 A. At that checkpoint next to the tank, Drago Tintar and Mico Jurusic

12 were standing.

13 Q. Were they from the area?

14 A. Yes, they were.

15 Q. From where?

16 A. Drago Tintar was from Tukovi, and I think Jurusic lived somewhere

17 in Prijedor. But I knew him from the Carakovo/Prijedor bus line.

18 Q. Now, Witness, talking about this checkpoint, were the people able

19 to move freely?

20 A. Not really freely, because they stopped people there. They asked

21 questions about what you were going to Prijedor for. It was no longer

22 yours. It was in Serb hands. You have no business there. You didn't

23 want to go to war with us. That sort of thing.

24 Q. Were you able to get your food and any other essentials from the

25 town of Prijedor?

Page 5723

1 A. That was quite difficult. In June, we could, but in July, no

2 longer, because as soon as you were recognised, identified as a Muslim,

3 you could no longer buy anything.

4 Q. Now, Witness, you spoke about two checkpoints, one in Gomjenica

5 and the other one in Tukovi. Did you see another checkpoint in some other

6 place, in the outskirts of Carakovo?

7 A. Yes, I did. When I was on my way back from Brkovica to Carakovo,

8 in May, when I was going back home, I saw a checkpoint up there in Sanski

9 Most. Soldiers were stopping trucks, searching them, and then letting

10 them through from Sanski Most on the road to Prijedor. That was the first

11 time I saw this checkpoint apart from the two other ones I had seen

12 before. Soldiers wearing uniforms, all Serb soldiers. I couldn't see a

13 Muslim anywhere around. So I began to panic. I didn't know what would

14 happen to me. But they didn't do anything to me. They just looked at my

15 ID. They said: "Oh you're from Prijedor" and then they let me through.

16 Q. Now, Witness, I will take your mind to another area. After the

17 Serb takeover in April 1992, the following months, did you listen to the

18 broadcast in the Radio Prijedor?

19 A. Yes. They cut off electricity, so we had no electricity, but some

20 people still listened to the radio, rode around on their bikes. We

21 listened to the news. We heard about Mirza Mujadzic and Hilmija Hopovac.

22 Mostly, there were requests to surrender. I did not really know those

23 people. Day in, day out, they called for them to surrender. They called

24 for weapons to be turned in, the hunting rifles that people had. They had

25 already turned those weapons in. They turned these -- those weapons in at

Page 5724

1 the place where weapons were being collected, but they still asked for

2 more weapons to be turned in. They began to panic, and people started to

3 run to the woods. In the evening, Serbs would enter the village.

4 Q. Witness, can I interrupt you there. I will go step by step. I

5 need to clarify certain points. Now, you mentioned the name of Hilmija

6 Hopovac and Mirza Mujadzic. You said that you don't know these people,

7 but do you know as to what position they held and what they did during

8 that time and as to why there was a call to surrender?

9 A. I heard that they had founded the SDA, the party. I can't say

10 whether that was true or not, but that's what they called them for.

11 Q. Did you know that whether this Hilmija Hopovac or Mirza Mujadzic

12 held any position in the SDA party?

13 A. No, not really.

14 Q. Now, you said there was a call to surrender weapons. Did anybody

15 from your village surrender weapons?

16 A. Well, there were people who had hunting rifles, and they took

17 these hunting rifles. And I mean they had pistols as well, and they had

18 permits and they handed all that in. They handed all that in by the

19 village road, yes, as far as I could hear. I don't know. I didn't have

20 any such thing. I had nothing to hand in.

21 Q. Thank you. I know that you didn't have a weapon, but did you know

22 that the others handed over the hunting rifles that they had?

23 A. Yes, yes, they did. Yes. They handed them in. My neighbours, as

24 far as I know, those who had rifles, they took them there.

25 Q. Now, Witness, the month of June in 1992, you spent your time in

Page 5725

1 the village, didn't you?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Did you see Serb soldiers come to the village?

4 A. Yes, every day, they came into the village, and they asked for

5 something. Fuel, cars, or whatever we had, cattle, animals, they would

6 slaughter them, and they would eat. They were also looking for people.

7 For example, the women knew what was going on, and some of them would

8 say: "Well, my man is working in Austria, my man is working Slovenia."

9 But at any rate, only if they knew, because they were neighbours, that

10 these people were actually there, they would mistreat the women, they

11 could curse them. They would say: "We know they are there, they are

12 hiding," things like that.

13 Q. Did you recognise any of the Serb soldiers who came during this

14 time?

15 A. Well, yes. Dragan Tintar and Mico Jurusic for the most part. And

16 then there were some other people there, younger ones, older ones, I don't

17 know. But I recognised them because with Dragan Tintar -- I mean, I knew

18 him. He would come to (redacted) We would talk. Things like that.

19 Q. Were they dressed in uniform? Were they armed?

20 A. Yes, yes. They were carrying rifles, those automatic rifles. And

21 uniforms, and Drago, once, I saw actually when he came to pick up a

22 neighbour of mine --

23 Q. Witness, may I interrupt you. And please, answer my questions.

24 Now, during the month of June in 1992, did any people from the other

25 villages come to your village?

Page 5726

1 A. People fled from Hambarine, from the village of Hambarine, to our

2 village because the Serbs had already taken over their village, and then

3 they fled. Some went to Rizvanovici, some to Carakovo, so some were

4 staying at our village, too.

5 Q. The people from Hambarine, were they children and women?

6 A. Women, children, old people, people who were sickly. Whoever

7 could escape, escaped. And those who could not stayed, and some of them

8 they caught and took to the camp.

9 Q. Did you speak to these people who came from the other villages

10 such as Hambarine, did they tell you that the men were arrested and taken

11 away to the camps?

12 A. Yes, yes. They talked. The young people, whoever they got at

13 home or in the fields or in the woods, wherever, whoever managed to escape

14 escaped to our village. And that's how they got there, really.

15 Q. You said they said that the Serbs had already taken over their

16 village. Did they say what the Serbs did in their village? What did they

17 mean by that?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Was this after the attack on the village of Hambarine?

20 A. When the attack happened, yes, that's when the women fled. They

21 started shelling Carakovo and Hambarine the same day. And that day, they

22 barged into Hambarine, and then the women fled from there. Actually, they

23 stayed in the village of Hambarine, they did. And then a month later,

24 they also attacked Carakovo.

25 Q. I will come to that. Now, how long did the people from Hambarine

Page 5727

1 stay in your village?

2 A. A month. We were together until Carakovo fell.

3 Q. Now, do you recall the 23rd of July, 1992?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. That was the day that the Serbs attack the village of Carakovo.

6 Is that correct?

7 A. Yes. Yes, a terrible day, a sad day. I remember that day. At

8 9.00 in the morning, I went to my neighbour's home to bring some food

9 because his children were staying with me. That is 2 kilometres down the

10 road from my place. This neighbour said that there is an attack that is

11 going to be launched against Carakovo. He heard the tanks coming. And I

12 said: "I'm going home. The children are there. And my mother is there,

13 and the women who were staying with me." I didn't even manage to get to

14 my house. They were already --

15 Q. I'm sorry to have interrupted you. But I would like to know the

16 name of your neighbour who came and said that the village is being

17 attacked.

18 A. The name is Adem Hopovac.

19 Q. Adem Hopovac.

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. How far was Adem Hopovac's house from your house?

22 A. Two kilometres.

23 Q. Now, he came, and he was not in the house when you went to his

24 house.

25 A. He slept somewhere, at his sister's in Carakovo actually. And

Page 5728

1 then when I managed to get some food from him, he managed to get there,

2 too. And then he did notice these tanks moving towards Carakovo. And

3 then he said: "The army is coming. What are we going to do"? And I said

4 to him, Adem, I'm going home. Our children are on their own. And a lady

5 friend was with me, and her son, and a neighbour. And then behind Adem's

6 house, there was some corn, and then we started running through these corn

7 fields taking a shortcut in order to get home as soon as possible. There

8 was shooting, and there was this thunder coming from the tanks. What

9 could I do? I couldn't even reach my home. And then through the woods,

10 we moved to the school, and then the soldiers stopped there, and they were

11 holding rifles. And then this young man who was behind me, this colleague

12 of mine who was with me, he noticed them. I managed to get out of the

13 woods about a metre, and then he grabbed me by the shoulders, and pulled

14 me back. And then we went back through these woods and through the corn

15 fields, and there were 15 or 20 dulums of corn. It was a big field. And

16 then we stayed there until about 5.00.

17 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: May I just --

18 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for the judge, please.

19 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: -- interrupt, please, at page 18, line 25, may

20 the location be redacted please. Thank you.

21 MR. WAIDYARATNE: Thank you. Thank you, Your Honour.

22 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Plead proceed.

23 MR. WAIDYARATNE:

24 Q. Now, when you were hiding in the corn field which was between the

25 woods, did you see the Serb soldiers?

Page 5729

1 A. I didn't see them, but I did hear the shooting, and I heard the

2 tanks, and I heard the screams of women and children. I heard them

3 crying. And then I saw houses that were burning straight away. We were

4 still in the corn fields. We thought it would stop. But then, no, the

5 screaming was going on, and they were shouting. And they were going

6 through the woods as if it were some kind of a hunt. When Mujo Hopovac's

7 house was on fire, we got up, and we tried to go back to Adem's house to

8 move towards it by the house of Danica. They are neighbours. And then

9 the shooting abated a bit. As we approached the house, Danica's house, we

10 found her house. He said that they had searched the house, and that they

11 told him not to go anywhere, that they would be coming back. As for Adem

12 Hopovac's house, and his son's house, everything was taken out, everything

13 that they had. The washing machine, the VCR, everything that they had,

14 and when I came, I saw them loading vehicles. Some were going towards

15 Rastovci and others towards Prijedor. We hid there. I asked Danica's

16 husband to give me a cigarette so that I could light up. I saw women

17 going, and I saw women ringing their hands in dismay and saying that they

18 burned their sheds.

19 And then Husein Sijacic's wife was there, and -- oh, I've

20 forgotten the name now.

21 Q. Was it Jasmin, Jasmin Sijacic?

22 A. Yes, Jasmin. Their wives and children went towards Prijedor, and

23 their men were killed behind the houses. Then we set out slowly. The

24 shooting abated and everything else. And then we started moving towards

25 my house. When I came to my house --

Page 5730

1 Q. Witness, before you go to your house, may I interrupt you. I have

2 a couple of questions.

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Did you have any warning from the Serbs before the attack to your

5 village?

6 A. Yes. They were issuing these warnings about weapons, weapons

7 should be handed in. Every day, day in and day out, they were saying that

8 weapons should be handed in.

9 Q. I don't think you understood me. Before the attack, before the

10 tanks came into the town, they never gave you a warning?

11 A. Well, they were threatening people that they would have to be

12 mobilised and that they had to report for mobilisation. They were calling

13 them day in, day out. But our people did not dare respond. They didn't

14 want to go and fight in Croatia. They were threatening Mujadzic and

15 Hopovac. They were actually using their very own last names. They said:

16 "Whoever had the last name of Mujadzic and Hopovac, that they would kill

17 these families." But we didn't pay attention to that because we thought

18 that that wouldn't really happen.

19 Q. Now, Witness, you said you heard the wife of Husein Sijacic and

20 Jasmin Sijacic saying that their men were killed. Did you hear or see any

21 other men being taken into custody and being taken away?

22 A. I only saw people as they were leaving en mass. Men, women, and

23 children going on buses. They were being taken somewhere, but I didn't

24 know where they were being taken?

25 Q. Now, did you know a person by the name of Rubija Redzic?

Page 5731

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Page 5732

1 A. Yes, this woman was killed right in front of her own house on that

2 day. On that day.

3 Q. Please, explain as to what you saw.

4 A. Rubija Redzic was lying dead in front of her house. The Serbs had

5 killed her on that day. I was passing by there from Adem Hopovac's house.

6 I was passing in front of Rubija's house as I was going to y house. I saw

7 her dead. After that, I heard that the Serbs had come there and that they

8 killed her in front of her house. The woman didn't manage to escape. She

9 didn't manage to hide anywhere, so she was lying in front of her own house

10 dead. Fehim also, killed right in front of her house.

11 Q. I'll get to that. We'll go step by step slowly. Did you see any

12 injuries on Rubija?

13 A. She was lying on the stomach, and she was bloody up here, here I

14 saw her.

15 Q. You showed the place. Was it the head that you saw blood or

16 injury?

17 A. Yes, on the head, up here, that's where the blood was.

18 Q. Now, who was Rubija? Was she a villager? Was she staying in the

19 village?

20 A. Yes, yes, she was a local villager. She lived there.

21 Q. What was her ethnicity?

22 A. Muslim.

23 Q. Now, you spoke about a person by the name of Fehim. Is it Fehim

24 Karupovic?

25 A. Karupovic, yes.

Page 5733

1 Q. Was he also from the village?

2 A. Yes, yes, he was also born there in the village. First of all, I

3 saw Adem Hopovac there. Adem was killed, too.

4 Q. I will come to that. What did you see? Where did you see Fehim

5 and what happened to him?

6 A. Fehim was lying on his back in front of his own house. He had

7 been shot in the chest, and in the hands -- he was lying like this. So

8 there were bullet holes in his chest, on his hands, and also in the

9 forehead, and he was lying on the back like that in front of his own

10 house.

11 Q. He was -- you saw him dead in front of his house?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Now, he was also a Muslim from the village?

14 A. He's a Muslim, too, yes. He was born there.

15 Q. Roughly how old were Fehim and Rubija, if you know?

16 A. Rubija was born in 1937 because I talked to her children. And

17 Fehim was born in 1940.

18 Q. Now, you said that you also saw Adem Hopovac.

19 A. Yes, yes, Adem was lying by his house on the stomach. Again, he

20 was wounded in the back, and his legs were spread out like this because I

21 was -- this was the first time I saw a dead man, I was frightened. I

22 panicked, and then from there, we went home.

23 Q. Did you see any injuries on Adem?

24 A. Yes, yes. On the back, a bullet had hit him in the back. He was

25 lying on the stomach, and a bullet had gone through his shirt and his legs

Page 5734

1 were spread out and his head was a bit slanted.

2 Q. Now, Adem, how old was he, and what ethnicity?

3 A. Muslim, about 60 years old. He was a retiree.

4 Q. After you saw Adem Hopovac dead, and his body, you proceeded to go

5 to your house. Did you come to your house?

6 A. Yes, then I came to my house.

7 Q. And am I correct if I say Adem's son was there?

8 A. Yes, Adem's son was at my house.

9 Q. How old was he?

10 A. He was 25 years old.

11 Q. Did you tell Adem's son as to what had happened to his father?

12 A. Yes, I told him. When he saw me, he started crying. He said:

13 "Are you alive?" And I said, "Yes." I said, "Son, unfortunately your

14 father got killed." And his mother was in the village of Zecovi, and he

15 said, "Would you please be so good as to go with me to my mother's to tell

16 her that my father got killed." And then we went to Zecovi. We arrived

17 in Zecovi. His mother was a heart patient. She was happy when she saw

18 him. She said, "Son, why have you come? Are you hungry?" And then she

19 found a piece of bread.

20 Q. Did you give the information to the wife of Adem that Adem was

21 killed?

22 A. We didn't tell her directly, but we told the woman at whose place

23 she was staying. We said: "Hata, take care of Adem's wife. Adem was

24 killed." Since Adem's wife was sick, and this other person with whom she

25 was saying was an old woman, we said, "Try to get over to my place, to

Page 5735

1 Carakovo." And I and Adem's son left.

2 Q. Before you come to that, how far was Zecovi from Carakovo, from

3 your village?

4 A. A kilometre, a kilometre between the village of Carakovo and the

5 village of Zecovi.

6 Q. Then, after you gave the information to Hata and Adem's wife about

7 the death of Adem, then you returned to come to your house in Carakovo.

8 A. Yes.

9 MR. WAIDYARATNE: Your Honour, would this be an appropriate time

10 to take a break.

11 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Could you please 20 minutes.

12 MR. WAIDYARATNE: Until 10.30?

13 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Yes.

14 MR. WAIDYARATNE: Very well.

15 Q. Now, on your way from Hata's house which is in Zecovi, did you

16 pass a place which you call the Bare, or which is in English the swamp,

17 swamp area?

18 A. Yes, yes. But grass is also cut there, too, but yes, we call the

19 place bare.

20 Q. At this place, did you see any person's killed, or dead bodies?

21 A. Yes. I came across eight dead bodies. I can't remember all of

22 them now. They were lying there. I passed by. I recognised Asim Redzic,

23 and then I panicked. I went home to my brother's, and I said to my

24 brothers: "There are many dead people lying in "Bare". Asim is among

25 them. Perhaps the rest are not from our villages." And then my brothers

Page 5736

1 and I went there. We recognised all the people who were there, Hopovac,

2 Huse, Suad, his young son; Malovcic, Fadil, his cousin, also a young man.

3 Then Velid Hopovac, Nijaz, his brother; Redzic Asim, Redzic Nijaz, I think

4 his first name was.

5 Q. I will come to these people, the names of these people a little

6 later. Now, did you see the body of Asim Redzic?

7 A. Yes, yes.

8 Q. Did you see --

9 A. Yes, I recognised him.

10 Q. Did you see the injuries that he had sustained or suffered?

11 A. Yes, he was also wounded in the head. He was lying on the back.

12 When I approached him nearby, when we had returned, I saw that his shirt

13 was bullet-riddled, and that he had many wounds in the chest.

14 Q. Now, you spoke about another person by the name of Nijaz Redzic.

15 He was also a person who was dead and where you saw the body?

16 A. Yes, yes.

17 Q. Asim Redzic and Nijaz Redzic, how old were they approximately, if

18 you know?

19 A. Asim was 60, almost 61. And Nijaz was a youngish man, about 38.

20 Q. You also spoke about a person by the name of Huse Hopovac and his

21 son Suad. Am I correct, you saw their bodies?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Huse Hopovac, how old was he and his son Suad? If you know

24 approximately, what was their age?

25 A. Huse was born in 1940. And the young boy Suad was born in 1974.

Page 5737

1 He went to school with my children.

2 Q. You mentioned another name by the name of Fadil Malovcic.

3 A. Yes, Malovcic, yes.

4 Q. The person you saw dead was his nephew. Am I correct?

5 A. Yes, Malovcic.

6 Q. Do you remember the first name?

7 It's all right. We will move on. Then you also spoke about a

8 person by the name of Nijaz Hopovac.

9 A. Yes, I did.

10 Q. And the other person was his brother. Did you know them?

11 A. Yes, his brother, yes.

12 Q. Was he Mirhad?

13 A. Mirhad, yes. Mirhad.

14 Q. Were they young people?

15 A. Youngish people. I think Nijaz Hopovac was perhaps born in 1955,

16 and his brother was about three years younger than him.

17 Q. Fadil Malovcic and his nephew, how old was his nephew, if you know

18 approximately? Was he a young boy?

19 A. Born in 1974. He also went to school with my daughter. Fadil, I

20 think, was born in 1961. Something like that.

21 Q. Now, when these bodies were brought by your brothers, were the

22 Serbs still around, the Serb soldiers? Did you hear the shooting?

23 A. Every day, every hour, they were there. But when it got dark,

24 they took a horse cart, and then they went through the woods to Asim

25 Redzic's house, because there is a cemetery there. And the others had

Page 5738

1 stayed behind in order to dig the graves because if you would be digging

2 in the field, then they would see you and shoot at you.

3 Q. And you buried all these people, the dead?

4 A. Yes, yes.

5 Q. Now, did you later hear from a person by the name of Husein

6 Malovcic as to what happened to these people whom you found dead?

7 A. Yes. When I went to Travnik, Husein also went with us. One day,

8 we went out in front of the barracks, and we were sitting there and he was

9 crying. And he was saying: "All our children are gone. Military men

10 came in uniforms." He recognised some of them. Vasiljevic was his last

11 name. I don't know his first name. And then he said to Husein that they

12 would only take them for interrogation. Then they would return them home.

13 And then his son Fadil was even barefoot at the time, and he wanted to go

14 back to put his shoes on. And then he said: "Come on, Fadil." Because

15 they were colleagues. They knew each other. He said: "You won't need

16 that."

17 And then they took them through the woods behind the house. About

18 300 metres behind Husein's house, there is a forest. And then they

19 started beating them there with their hands and pushing them. Nijaz's

20 brother was lame, and he couldn't walk properly. And then every time the

21 soldier would hit him, he would fall. And then to "bare" you had to walk

22 for about an hour, and that is where their lives came to an end.

23 Q. Husein Malovcic was the father of Fadil Malovcic. Is that

24 correct?

25 A. Yes, yes.

Page 5739

1 Q. Now, Witness, the next two days after the 23rd of July, 1992, did

2 you see Serbs come into your village?

3 A. Yes, I did. I saw them every single day, every hour. In the

4 evening, we couldn't sleep in our houses. They requested that we keep the

5 lights on, but there was no electricity, so that they could tell that

6 there were people inside the houses. They would come to the houses in the

7 evening, take people off, kill and maltreat them. We hid in the woods.

8 We couldn't even stay in our houses. Early in the morning, we would get

9 back to our house, make some food for ourselves, and they would shoot

10 again. We saw them walk by with rifles, sometimes on horse-drawn carts.

11 Sometimes they walked. Sometimes they used armed personnel carriers,

12 things like that. Until eventually we were removed from Carakovo.

13 Q. Witness, now, when you saw this during these days, did the Serb

14 soldiers come and take away anything from your house or from your sister?

15 A. Yes, they came one day to my sister's place looking for a car.

16 She gave them gold. They were looking for a tractor, for a scythe. All

17 the mechanic tools, they took everything. They came back in the evening

18 and killed everyone in the house. I didn't see him, but I spoke to my

19 son-in-law. There was blood on his hands. He was crying. My grandfather

20 was behind the door. He had a heart attack. They cut up his body. The

21 next house was perhaps 200 metres away. Over a hundred women and children

22 slept in my house then. Elderly people, too. You had to keep your head

23 down all the time because there were bullets flying all over the place

24 between the two houses. In the morning, I could no longer take it so I

25 went to the other house where they were staying. I found my brother's

Page 5740

1 colleague at the checkpoint. I said: "Good afternoon."

2 Q. Witness, I'm sorry to have interrupted you. Before you go to that

3 area, I need to ask you some questions with regard to certain other

4 areas. We will come to that later.

5 Now, we were talking about the two days after -- that is 25th or

6 26th of July. Now, you say that the Serb soldiers used to come to your

7 village and take away things. Did they take a tractor from your house?

8 A. My sister's tractor, that's the one they took.

9 Q. Did they take money from your sister?

10 A. Yes, they did. They took money and gold, too.

11 Q. Were they Serb soldiers?

12 A. They were all wearing uniforms, soldiers, civilians, you couldn't

13 tell because they all wore the same uniform.

14 Q. Now, Witness, do you recall a person by the name of Besim Music

15 whom you took to the hospital during this time?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. What happened to him?

18 A. On the 223rd, he was outside his own house. He was shredding corn

19 when Serb soldiers came. They put him in a car and took him off

20 somewhere. They beat him in the car. They broke his bones and threw him

21 out perhaps 30 metres down the road further from the house. They threw

22 him out there. He moaned and groaned, and you could hear his moans in the

23 woods where our people were staying. They brought him in a horse cart up

24 there where he could be helped. He spent a day or two with us. We

25 dressed his wounds. His body was swollen. They shot him not directly in

Page 5741

1 the head, but through the head, and then his skin was ripped. His legs

2 were also like that, his arms. We could no longer continue like that. My

3 brothers asked me for him to be taken to a doctor.

4 Q. And you took him to the hospital on the 25th of July, 1992, in a

5 horse cart. Am I correct?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Thank you. Which hospital did you take him to?

8 A. There is a hospital in Prijedor.

9 Q. Do you know what happened to his wife, Badema? Did you see her?

10 A. I did not see her. But the woman neighbour who buried her son at

11 her place saw her. She had been taken away. She had been verbally abused

12 and told to show them where the hideouts used by the Green Berets were.

13 She yelled and cried and said she didn't know where that was. They took

14 her to the woods where they killed her and Ramiz Rekic [phoen]. They

15 killed them together. Ramiz was buried by his father and mother and

16 Badema's body remained lying outside because there was no one to bury her.

17 No one was able to, so she wasn't buried.

18 Q. Now, during this time, did you know persons by the name of Ermin

19 Sijacic and Huse Salihovic?

20 A. Yes, I saw their bodies, their dead bodies. When they were

21 brought to the cemetery near my house, Nermin Sijacic's father found their

22 bodies in a field. They dug their graves and brought their bodies there

23 in wheelbarrows. They were cut up across their chests. Their faces were

24 disfigured. There was blood on their skin, and their faces were

25 bullet-pimpled. We buried them there in Mezaluci.

Page 5742

1 Q. What was their ethnicity?

2 A. Muslims.

3 Q. This was after the attack on the 23rd of July, 1992?

4 A. On the 24rd, we buried them. His father came from the woods and

5 saw them lying, their dead bodies, in the field.

6 MR. WAIDYARATNE: Your Honour, would this be a convenient time to

7 have the break.

8 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Thank you. The trial stays adjourned until

9 11.00 sharp.

10 --- Recess taken at 10.28 p.m.

11 --- On resuming at 11.04 a.m.

12 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Please be seated. You may proceed.

13 MR. WAIDYARATNE: Thank you, Your Honour.

14 Q. Now, Witness, before the break, we were talking about you seeing

15 the bodies of Huse Salihovic and Ermin Sijacic.

16 A. Yeah.

17 Q. During this time, did you see the body of Nasif Dizdarevic?

18 A. I didn't see the body, but I saw his son burying him. There was

19 blood on his hands. I talked to him, and he said he found him in the

20 house in the kitchen behind the door. He was all cut up by bullets, and

21 then he buried him in his garden outside the house. The body had been

22 looked at by the national committee, and they had seen it and studied it.

23 Q. Now, Nasif Dizdarevic was then living in Zecovi. Am I correct?

24 A. No, in Carakovo.

25 Q. If I say you saw the body of Nasif Dizdarevic when it was buried,

Page 5743

1 am I correct that it was on the 27th of July, 1992? Did you hear my

2 question?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Was it on the 27th of July, 1992, when you saw Dizdarevic?

5 A. Yes, that's correct.

6 Q. Now, talking about these days in July 1992, after the attack on

7 your village, Carakovo, were there people staying in your house taking

8 refuge in your house?

9 A. Yes, from Hambarine, from Zecovi, from all over the place, they

10 came to my house. Sometimes we slept in the house, but more often, we

11 slept in the woods because Serb soldiers would come to the house every

12 night. If they found anyone inside the house, they would kill them.

13 Wherever they found families in the village of Zecovi, they killed them.

14 We were seized by panic and we started to run and hide.

15 Q. On the 28th of July, 1992, did you and two others go to the centre

16 of the town in Carakovo and speak to any of the soldiers?

17 A. Yes. I came across a colleague of my brothers who worked with

18 them in the Celpak factory. He was also wearing a uniform and carrying a

19 rifle. He recognised me. I said, "Good afternoon. I came here to ask

20 you what we should do, because I can no longer stay at my house with the

21 other people who were staying in my house." And he said, "We are here --"

22 that was a Wednesday, until Saturday. "We guarantee that you stay, and

23 then afterwards, the army from Serbia would be here, and I can give you no

24 further guarantees. Something had to be done."

25 I returned home. I told the people who were staying there what I

Page 5744

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Page 5745

1 had been told. I no longer want to stay here. What do I need this house

2 for in this situation? I'm going over there to surrender. And then the

3 other neighbours who were staying in their own houses, started out with

4 us, with me, and they said we should carry a white flag and assemble there

5 with the other people. Around a hundred people started out from my house,

6 and there were more people on the way to this home, building. They kept

7 us there for three hours. They maltreated us. "Where are you going to?

8 Who are you going to? Here's your Alija now. You wanted your own state.

9 Go home." And we just kept silent, kept our heads down. They didn't even

10 give us water or food. Some old men took the water from the horses to

11 give to the children to drink, but they wouldn't let them. And next to

12 us, a friend from a neighbouring village sat there. She had buried her

13 two sons and a number of neighbours. She sat in front of us with two

14 small children. Her husband had been killed. A Serb came over and said,

15 "Okay, start making your beds." And then she moaned, and then my

16 relative by the name of (redacted) came up to him and said, "Look my son,

17 I'll make the bed. Leave this woman alone." He started to curse her, the

18 Serb. And then another patrol came, and they said, "Come on, let's go.

19 We've got the buses here for you".

20 MR. WAIDYARATNE: There was a reference, Your Honour --

21 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: May the name on line 15 please be redacted.

22 Thank you.

23 MR. WAIDYARATNE: Thank you, Your Honour. Thank you.

24 Q. Witness, now, to clarify certain points, you, with the other

25 people who were in your house and in the village with a white flag came to

Page 5746

1 the centre of Carakovo, which is called the dom. Am I correct?

2 A. Yes, that's correct.

3 Q. This is where you were explaining as to what the soldiers told you

4 and how they conducted themselves.

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Now, the majority of the people who were there, were almost the

7 people the children, the women, and the old?

8 A. Yes, elderly people, too.

9 Q. Before this, the military-aged people, the young men were taken

10 into custody and taken away. Am I correct?

11 A. Yes, some had been taken away, and some were not allowed to come

12 there and surrender. They just hid in the woods.

13 Q. Now, after you stayed there for a couple of hours in the dom, in

14 the centre of the town, were you all asked to go to another place by the

15 name of Zegar?

16 A. After the maltreatment and after being detained for several hours,

17 armed soldiers took us to -- escorted us to Zegar, and the buses came

18 there.

19 Q. I'm sorry. Could you explain what this place you call Zegar is.

20 Is it a name of a place?

21 A. That's a part of Carakovo.

22 Q. There's a bridge which is called the Zegar Bridge, am I correct?

23 A. Yes, the Zegar bridge. Just near the bridge, that's where we were

24 taken.

25 Q. And when were taken, escorted by -- was it the Serb soldiers who

Page 5747

1 took you there?

2 A. Yes, they took us there. We went two by two, looking in front,

3 because we couldn't look anywhere else. We were not allowed. Every 2

4 metres there was a Serb soldier with a rifle standing facing us. And they

5 escorted us all the way to Zegar like that.

6 Q. How far is Zegar from the centre of Carakovo?

7 A. It is in Carakovo actually. It's a kilometre from the dom.

8 Q. Thank you.

9 A. There's a kilometre from the dom to Zegar.

10 Q. I'm sorry. When you were taken to the place called the Zegar, did

11 you see a group of young men who had been brought there?

12 A. Yes, I did.

13 Q. What did you observe? How did they look?

14 A. A group of Muslims who were stopped there, they were stripped bare

15 to their waist. They were told to put their hands behind their back, and

16 they were just standing there. They were just stopped. I didn't know

17 what was going on, why they were kept there.

18 Q. Did you see any things lying on the ground where this group was

19 standing?

20 A. Yes, their clothes. Jackets, shirts, IDs, it was all lying on the

21 ground. But we were not allowed to pick any of those items up. So when

22 we came to the house, there were soldiers looking from the windows so

23 that -- making sure no one would pick up any of those.

24 Q. Now, at this moment, did buses arrive?

25 A. Yes, the buses began to arrive, and people were loaded into these

Page 5748

1 buses. They just loaded up to 150 people on to one bus, women, children,

2 as many as they could fit inside a bus. Five buses one after the other,

3 and I was in the last bus with my family.

4 Q. Were these buses from Autotransport Prijedor?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And who were driving the buses?

7 A. Serb soldiers did. I don't know, because I didn't recognise any

8 of them then.

9 Q. Now, before you got into the bus, when you were about to get into

10 the bus, did you see a person by the name of Hasib Simbegovic?

11 A. Yes. He came with us. He was my neighbour. He came with us to

12 the dom, to Zegar. He stood behind me. I entered. And then he put his

13 foot on the first step of the bus, and his coat fell off. But among all

14 those soldiers, Drago Tintar came, grabbed him, and asked him, "Where are

15 you going to Hasib? You can't go. You're not allowed to leave." The bus

16 was still there, and he grabbed him and pushed him, made him walk in front

17 of him towards the bridge. Not even 3 metres away. He took out his gun

18 from the belt. He shot Hasib, and Hasib fell down, and then the bus left.

19 Q. Did you see the shooting?

20 A. He shot him here, and then he fell down on his back, right in his

21 forehead.

22 Q. Dragan Tintar was a Serb soldier. Am I correct?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Was he dressed in uniform?

25 A. He was wearing a camouflage uniform.

Page 5749

1 Q. Was he from Tukovi?

2 A. Yes, he was.

3 Q. Now, after you boarded the bus, where were you all taken to?

4 A. They took us to Trnopolje. That's where we found...

5 Q. I'm sorry. I stopped you. Before we speak about -- talk about

6 Trnopolje, could I ask you another question. Did you -- you said that

7 Tintar was dressed in a uniform. What colour was it?

8 A. Camouflage uniform, just the usual camouflage uniform.

9 Q. Now, Witness, going back to the trip to Trnopolje, you all were

10 taken to Trnopolje the same day?

11 A. Yes. Some people had stayed behind, people who didn't leave on

12 the same day. But those five buses went to Trnopolje.

13 Q. How long did you stay in Trnopolje?

14 A. We just spent the night there. And then headed off for Travnik.

15 Q. Were you provided food?

16 A. No.

17 Q. And shelter?

18 A. It was some sort of a centre, a school building. I didn't know

19 Trnopolje very well. They hoarded us in there. There were people

20 sleeping outside also. There was a wire fence. Bread was to be paid for,

21 but was not given to us on the same day. So we just spent the night

22 there, some without a roof over their heads and some inside.

23 Q. Now, after that night in Trnopolje, were you all transferred to

24 another location?

25 A. Yes. They came. They said the trucks would be there, and then

Page 5750

1 "You will go to your own country." A Serb came over and told us. Some

2 came and said, "There is no fuel. We must put some money together to get

3 fuel." But at a certain point, we heard a truck coming. They told us to

4 go to a room and hoarded us into a room. As many people as could fit

5 inside, and even more. They kicked us and pushed us. Two buses and three

6 trucks came, and we stayed there. They said, "You'll spend the night

7 here. There's no more transport today." After 20 minutes, another truck

8 came, and then those of us who were in the other hall, they hoarded us on

9 to that bus, and then we left. Trucks were covered with ground sheets, so

10 you couldn't tell where you were going. You didn't know where you were

11 being taken to. They stopped us in two different places. Children were

12 asking for water, of course. We were followed by two cars. I don't know

13 what those cars were, to give us water. And then soldiers were going

14 around with bags to collect money and gold. If you had none, he would

15 slap the child and hold a bayonet up to the child's head. And whoever had

16 some money or gold had to give it to them. We were stopped like that

17 twice and maltreated. And then we reached Vlasic. We got out of the bus

18 there. They made us walk for about 500 metres. I was afraid. It was

19 dark already, around 9.00 in the evening. I saw them standing there by

20 the road side with beards all wearing uniforms. And they said, "Here you

21 are, this is your country. That's what you've asked for." There was our

22 own army and our own uniforms waiting there for us, and they took us to

23 the barracks in Travnik.

24 MR. WAIDYARATNE: Thank you, Your Honour. That concludes the

25 direct examination. Thank you.

Page 5751

1 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: The Defence is prepared to commence the

2 cross-examination. Please proceed.

3 Cross-examined by Mr. Lukic:

4 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Mrs. V. I will speak to you like

5 this. As Judge Schomburg has already spoken to you for your own personal

6 protection. We speak the same language, so there can be problems. When

7 you answer, you should try to pause a little after my question so there's

8 no overlap between question and answer. That's for the sake of the

9 interpretation service.

10 Mrs. V, how many times were you married?

11 A. Once.

12 MR. LUKIC: [In English] Your Honour, can we go to private

13 session. I have to mention some names.

14 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Private session, please.

15 [Private session]

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 5752

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 [Open session]

4 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Confirmed. You can proceed.

5 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

6 Q. Also, today when I put some questions to you, I will refer to

7 certain pages and certain lines in your statements, but that should not

8 confuse you. That is simply for the transcript so that the Honourable

9 Judges could follow what we are talking about.

10 In your statement dated 2000, the B/C/S version is page 2,

11 paragraph 3, and the English version is page 2, paragraph 3, you say the

12 following: "Around the 4th or 5th of May, Prijedor fell. I was in

13 Brkovica visiting one of my daughters at the time. My youngest son was

14 also with me. My other two children were in Carakovo at this time with my

15 mother. I was able to talk to my brother on one occasion who told me that

16 things were okay in Carakovo." Is that correct?

17 A. Yes, yes.

18 Q. Did your brother give you any more details concerning the

19 situation as it was?

20 A. No, I didn't ask either because this was on the telephone after

21 all, and I just asked him how mother was doing. And he said, don't worry,

22 mother is fine. And we both knew what it was all about, because I had

23 heard from people who had come to Brkovica from Krupa what had happened to

24 Krupa.

25 Q. When you reached Carakovo, was the situation still okay in

Page 5753

1 Carakovo, as you had put it?

2 A. It was quite tense. People were not working. They were afraid of

3 mobilisation, what they should do, what they should respond to. They

4 didn't want to go and kill anyone.

5 Q. Were there any armed conflicts at the time in Carakovo?

6 A. No.

7 Q. At the time, did the local population organise village patrols or

8 night patrols?

9 A. Yes, there were night patrols.

10 Q. In your statement dated 2000, the B/C/S version page 2, paragraph

11 4, and the English version, page 2, paragraph 4, you say the following:

12 "On the 7th of May, my son-in-law went to Bihac, and he heard there was a

13 bus to Prijedor by way of Banja Luka or Kljuc."

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. "So he suggested I go via Kljuc because he thought it was safer."

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. That means that bus lines were operating at the time. Right?

18 A. No, there weren't. They were stopped, and then they let one line

19 operate to Kljuc and Banja Luka. I decided to go to Kljuc. But there was

20 no bus from Prijedor to Bihac.

21 Q. How many passengers were on the bus? Can you remember? Was the

22 bus full, empty, half full?

23 A. Well, sort of, not many people were going to Kljuc.

24 Q. Do you know whether the bus ticket was customary or was it more

25 expensive?

Page 5754

1 A. It was more expensive. My son-in-law had to lend me some money

2 because I didn't have enough to pay for the bus ticket.

3 Q. When entering the bus, did anybody ask you for a permit or

4 anything like that?

5 A. My ID, and that is when I took the bus from Kljuc to Prijedor.

6 Actually they asked in Sanski Most for my ID. Milim Birt [phoen] I think

7 was the name of the place in Sanski Most.

8 Q. Was everybody asked to show their IDs?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Again, I'm referring to your statement dated 2000, the B/C/S

11 version, page 2, paragraph 5, and the English version, page 2, paragraph

12 5, line 3, you say the following: "At this time, the Serbs were looking

13 for men from my village to mobilise to fight in the war in Croatia."

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. "On one occasion, our young men were mobilised into the reserve."

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Does this refer to the period before or after the 7th of May,

18 1992?

19 A. Before, before. I think it was already in April that my brothers

20 were mobilised. They left home, went for three days, and then came back.

21 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter did not hear the last sentence

22 the witness said.

23 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

24 Q. The interpreters did not manage to interpret the last sentence you

25 said. I'm just going to read to you what is in the transcript. You said

Page 5755

1 that your brothers had left home. They went for three days, and then came

2 back.

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Did you say something after that?

5 A. They did not respond to mobilisation call-ups any more.

6 Q. Thank you. Do you know how mobilisation was carried out? Were

7 call-up papers sent that people were supposed to respond to?

8 A. The first time they responded, they received call-up papers. The

9 second time they called them, they called them via Radio Prijedor, and

10 then everybody was supposed to report for mobilisation. But they did not

11 respond.

12 Q. At the beginning of your statement from the year 2000, B/C/S

13 version is page 2, paragraph 2, line 2, the English version, page 2,

14 paragraph 2, you say the following: "In 1990, I began to notice people in

15 my area talk about war." Is this correct?

16 A. In 1999?

17 Q. In 1990.

18 A. Oh, yes. Yes, yes, I worked (redacted), and a friend, his

19 name was -- I've forgotten his last name.

20 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Could you please go in private session.

21 [Private session]

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 5756

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 [Open session]

16 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: It is open session.

17 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

18 Q. Can you tell us how far away your village was from the centre of

19 Prijedor?

20 A. It was exactly 9 kilometres to my house.

21 Q. On the road to Prijedor, through which villages did you pass, or

22 rather, what ethnicity were the people in the villages that you passed

23 through on your way to Prijedor?

24 A. When I get out of my village, all of it is Muslim population. I

25 mean, there were -- I mean, up to Tukovi, there were no Serbs, and then in

Page 5757

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6

7

8

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13 English transcripts.

14

15

16

17

18

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Page 5758

1 Tukovi, it was a mixed population both Serbs and Muslims.

2 Q. In your statement from the year 2000, B/C/S version page 3,

3 paragraph 2, the English version page 3, paragraph 1, you talk about

4 checkpoints.

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. You say the following: "I saw all three checkpoints from close

7 quarters. I was able to see the first and second checkpoints whenever I

8 went to the town of Prijedor. The third one I could not see from my

9 house, but on numerous occasions, I passed close to it." Is that correct?

10 A. Well, I saw. I saw these checkpoints when I passed by them when I

11 went to Prijedor and when I went back from Prijedor.

12 Q. Can you tell us how often you went to Prijedor?

13 A. I went on the third or fourth day, when necessary. For example,

14 when a neighbour would come and say something was needed. I don't know.

15 I mean, I really did not doubt these Serbs. And I had the courage to go

16 to buy things that they would let us buy. And what they didn't let us,

17 they didn't.

18 Q. So you can say that you went every three or four days. Is that

19 right?

20 A. Yes, yes.

21 Q. In addition to the checking at the checkpoints, did you move about

22 unhindered?

23 A. They would explain to us that we should not stay in Prijedor, that

24 we would have to go back within an hour. And then really quickly, you

25 would go and buy whatever you needed, and then go back.

Page 5759

1 Q. In order to go to Prijedor, did you need a special permit?

2 A. At first, they didn't ask for any such thing. Later on, they

3 wouldn't let anyone pass the checkpoint without a permit. You had to go

4 to the MUP to get a permit. A lady neighbour of mine, her man was in the

5 Serb army, and then he got me one of these permits, and I went to Prijedor

6 only once that way. I didn't go more than that.

7 Q. You say the beginning, they didn't ask for these permits. For how

8 long was it not necessary to have these permits? Can you remember?

9 A. Oh, my God, it was about ten days. After that, they asked for

10 permits.

11 Q. How did you go to Prijedor?

12 A. On foot.

13 Q. Did you sometimes travel by car?

14 A. No. Once, we set off in a horse cart. They let us go in Zegar.

15 But down there, by the Prijedor bridge, they mistreated us. They wanted

16 to take us -- to send us back. But then somebody else came, I don't know,

17 somebody with some kind of insignia. They said, "Let the people go." And

18 then people who had money said that we had to take their Serb and we

19 changed this in the bank. I mean, those who had those dinars, they had to

20 change it for this I don't know what. I can't remember the name. So

21 people who had money, they had to exchange the money. We bought what

22 we needed and...

23 Q. Did money change at that time? Could you please explain this to

24 us a bit. What kind of Serb money was this at the time?

25 A. I wouldn't know how to explain this to you. It was some kind of

Page 5760

1 billions. I know that it was Banja Luka.

2 Q. On the bank note it said "Banja Luka"?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. So Yugoslav dinars were not being used?

5 A. They were being used, too, but for the most part, we had to take

6 their money. I had nothing to change, so I didn't take it. But others

7 who had more money, they needed it, and then they exchanged their money.

8 Q. Thank you.

9 Apart from going to Prijedor, did you go anywhere else in May

10 1992, and also in June?

11 A. No, no, except for Prijedor and the village, my village where I

12 was.

13 Q. Did you ever go to Ljubija?

14 A. Yes, one day I went there with a friend. She was from Ljubija.

15 She went to see her mother there.

16 Q. How did it happen that you and the other people from your village

17 decided to take shelter in your house precisely?

18 A. Because my house was about 2 kilometres from the asphalt road.

19 And they take over to my place and asked me whether I could stay there, as

20 my house was slightly bigger, 12 or 16. So more people could fit inside.

21 So we decided to stay there. But as I've told you, perhaps we spent two

22 or three nights there, and then left.

23 Q. You explained to us today and you mentioned in your statement that

24 your village was attacked on the 23rd of June -- 23rd of July, 1992.

25 A. Yes.

Page 5761

1 Q. Is your village near the Kurevo woods?

2 A. Yes, not far from it.

3 Q. Were there armed people in your village just prior to the

4 conflict, to the attack?

5 A. I really don't know. I really can't tell.

6 Q. Were there any armed people in the Kurevo woods?

7 A. I don't know that either. I didn't see anyone, and I really

8 couldn't tell.

9 Q. Did you hear from other people that there were armed groups in the

10 Kurevo woods?

11 A. In those days, I was struggling to be alive with my -- to stay

12 alive with my children and my mother. My mother was born in 1920. We

13 just fled out of fear. I didn't want to know who was armed and who

14 wasn't. I just wanted them not to touch us.

15 Q. Who was the first person who told you, as you say in your

16 statement dated 2001, B/C/S page 3, paragraph 1, English statement, page

17 2, paragraph 6, that "in the Kurevo woods, there were armed Green Berets."

18 A. I heard it on the radio. The Serb army, for the people in Kurevo,

19 the Green Berets, to surrender. That was over the radio.

20 Q. In your statement dated 2000, B/C/S version, page 4, paragraph 4,

21 English version also page 4, paragraph 4, you say that you heard that

22 5.000 Serb soldiers were in your village during the attack.

23 A. Yes, that's indeed what I heard.

24 Q. You also say that they were all masked to prevent you from

25 identifying them?

Page 5762

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Who did you hear this from?

3 A. I heard it in Travnik when I got there because people kept

4 arriving from Kljuc. They were returning and shouting, they were

5 shouting: "The village was dangerous. And we had no problems in that

6 village. We expelled them all and killed them all without a problem."

7 Q. Did you see these masked soldiers?

8 A. I see when I ran from the corn field towards a house outside the

9 school building, I saw masked soldiers wearing rifles, and I heard cries

10 and yells. And I couldn't see anything more than that from the corn

11 field.

12 Q. Aside from wearing camouflage uniforms, were they masked in any

13 other way to be so difficult to identify?

14 A. My neighbours said that they also applied masks all over their

15 bodies. Husein recognised the one who had taken the people from his

16 house. He recognised another one who had his face painted. He recognised

17 him by his voice because he had come to see him before.

18 Q. When did you hear this from Husein?

19 A. In Travnik, when we met in Travnik.

20 Q. In your statement dated 2000, and you've also mentioned this today

21 in Court, B/C/S version, bottom of page 5, English version, page 5,

22 paragraph 3 -- paragraph 5, you describe what took place on the 25th of

23 July, 1992 when you took Besic Music and another man by the name of Ramo

24 from Hambarine whom you met at the first checkpoint, you say that you took

25 them to the hospital in Prijedor. And then returned to Carakovo. Is this

Page 5763

1 correct?

2 A. Yes, that's correct.

3 Q. How did you take these two persons to the hospital?

4 A. I first went to ask the patrol at the checkpoint. I said I had

5 some people with me who were wounded, whether I could take them to the

6 hospital. They said that I could, but that I also had to take Ramo. That

7 was perhaps half a kilometre from there. They put Besim on a horse cart.

8 I never used a horse cart before, so I didn't quite know what to do. I

9 came up to Ramo, his wife was there, too. His arm was out of joint, and

10 he was sitting there with his wife. He sat on the horse cart with his

11 wife, and then at the checkpoint, when I came there with the horses down

12 in Zegar, they didn't do anything there. A soldier walked up to me

13 wearing a uniform. "Where are you headed to with these people? Oh, come

14 on, you shot at us from the woods. Now you see these people are wounded."

15 He was still conscious. He said: "My wife didn't do anything. I didn't

16 do anything either. They beat me up in my own home. They put them on a

17 horse cart, and several hundred metres down the road they shot people

18 through the head. They threw him out." He was wounded. I don't know how

19 he was wounded I didn't talk to them. I took them to the hospital.

20 That's as far as I got. I went inside. There was a doctor and a lady

21 doctor standing there. "Good afternoon. Good afternoon. I brought these

22 people to you. They are wounded. What are their names?" I said, "Besim

23 Music. And Ramo. I didn't know his last name." And the lady doctor told

24 me, "Oh, that's the one." I didn't show what she was talking about.

25 They were looking for a man named Besim Music who was supposedly a

Page 5764

1 leader of the SDA. That was another man. And the doctors examined him,

2 and then the doctor said his blood pressure is high. He's about to have a

3 heart attack. We said nothing, and he said they would keep him at the

4 hospital, but no visits allowed. Once we were out of the hospital, myself

5 and my sister who was driving with me, a man came out in a black uniform

6 with a handbag and shirt, and he said, "Are you the one who brought these

7 wounded people here?" I said "Yes." He said, "Don't even budge from here

8 until I'm back." And then he told me, "You're free to go. You can thank

9 God that this is not the Besim we were looking for because we wouldn't

10 just let you go."

11 I said -- sat on the horse cart, and my cousin said, "Let's get

12 something for the children." And then another soldier came running out

13 holding a rifle. He said, "Fuck your Muslim mother. What are you

14 sniffing around here for?" I ran off, and my sister stayed there. I went

15 500 metres down the road, and then waited for her. I said, "Sister, what

16 had happened?" And she said, "There's our woman with the horses there."

17 And she pulled him against her chest. And he said, "Don't touch this

18 woman." I ran over there and sat on the cart, and then we left, reached

19 the checkpoint at Carakovo on the way into Zegar. They stopped us and

20 asked us what we had taken there. I saw Drago Tintar sitting over there

21 at a table, and he shouted over at them "Let them go." And then I

22 returned home.

23 Q. You told us today that following the attack, electricity was cut

24 in your village?

25 A. Yeah, even before the attack, we didn't have any electricity.

Page 5765

1 Q. Would you please tell us if electricity supply was irregular or

2 there was none at all?

3 A. There was none at all.

4 Q. Since when was the electricity supply cut?

5 A. When I came from Brkovica in May, there was no electricity.

6 Q. Did they have electricity in Prijedor? Do you know that?

7 A. Yes. In Prijedor, it was clear for all to see.

8 Q. You could see it all the time?

9 A. Yes, all the time.

10 Q. Did the Serb villages have electricity?

11 A. Yes, because across the water, across the river, the River Sana,

12 you could see the Serb villages, and they did have electricity.

13 Q. Except for the fact that every three or four days you could go to

14 Prijedor, did you -- were you able to produce food yourself? Did you have

15 a garden or a field?

16 A. Not much. They gave us fuel to reap, but we didn't eat a single

17 corn.

18 Q. When you speak about negotiations with the soldier at the

19 checkpoint, the checkpoint you went to with the two other women, Jasminka

20 and Fatija Karupovic, how did this happen? Who provided the initiative

21 for you to go there and talk there?

22 A. Our own initiative. I had no more courage to stay at home, no

23 food and no electricity. Every day, you're just waiting to be killed. So

24 I decided myself to go there, and I asked them whether they would come

25 with me. But I met a colleague there, a man was standing there they

Page 5766

1 checkpoint. He said, "Good afternoon." "Good afternoon." He was ashamed

2 to be there, but he said, "We have no choice. We have to be here."

3 Q. Was there anyone else next to him at the checkpoint?

4 A. Yes, further down. He was talking to me. The dom, the local

5 commune, it was all Serb army. They were shooting, and I didn't know what

6 was happening because you couldn't see anything there. Our people whom

7 they caught in the woods, they brought them here to kill them. It was

8 only later when I got to Travnik that I found out what had been happening

9 there.

10 Q. Did anyone attack you or wound you then?

11 A. No, no one did.

12 Q. Did you see anyone wounded or killed at that checkpoint?

13 A. No, not then.

14 Q. What did the soldier say? Who authorised him to negotiate, to

15 deal with you?

16 A. I didn't ask any questions about him being authorised. I just

17 came up to him. I recognised him. I said, "Good afternoon." "Good

18 afternoon." He recognised me because he used to come with my brothers up

19 to the house when the house was being built, with the youngest brother. I

20 told him: "Brother, please tell me, what's going on? What's going to

21 happen to us?"

22 Q. Did he consult anyone, and then afterwards did he then offer you

23 to come for interrogation?

24 A. He said, "Come." I said, "There are plenty of women and children

25 in my house. I just came here to see. We can all come here to see and

Page 5767

1 you just kill us because we could no longer stay in the house." A

2 friend who lived three or four hundred metres from my house had been

3 killed the night before. And now it was my house's turn. And then he

4 said: "You can all leave, get a white flag, and come here. Something

5 needed to be done." And I don't even remember what day of the week that

6 was. "We'll be here for another one or two days," he told me, "and then

7 no more guarantees because then the army would be there from Serbia. And

8 what will happen to you then, only God knows. But this way, we can offer

9 you some protection at least." That's what he told me.

10 Q. Did he offer to take you all for interrogation?

11 A. No. I never saw him again. I just returned home, and I told the

12 people who were staying in my house "I'm leaving now. And if you want,

13 you can come with me. I don't care about the house." I took my family,

14 and then everyone followed us, all the people there.

15 Q. Did he promise to bring you back to the village?

16 A. No, he never said anything, and I never saw him again.

17 Q. Did the soldier have any insignia, any ranks on him?

18 A. No, just camouflage uniform and a rifle.

19 Q. Did any of the villagers oppose this agreement of yours?

20 A. No, everyone agreed, and everyone left because no one could afford

21 to stay.

22 Q. When people from Hambarine came in June, you talked about that

23 today on page 1936 [as interpreted] of the transcript. You say that for

24 the most part, the group consisted of women and children.

25 A. And old people.

Page 5768

1 Q. And old people, yes. Did they tell you that armed people from

2 Hambarine had withdrawn into the Kurevo forest?

3 A. Honestly, they didn't.

4 Q. Did some of them return to Hambarine after a while?

5 A. No, no. Those who left with us went with us to Travnik as well.

6 Q. On page 26, I think it is line 22, you say that you left with your

7 son -- actually, with the son of Adem Hopovac who had been killed, I

8 think.

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. You say that you went to Adem Hopovac's wife.

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. She asked him: "Why did you come?"

13 A. Yeah. "Why did you come, son? Are you hungry?"

14 Q. Oh, are you hungry. Did she know what was going on in Carakovo?

15 A. Well, she knew --

16 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter did not understand the rest of

17 the answer of the witness. Could it please be repeated.

18 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

19 Q. Could you please repeat your answer. The interpreters didn't

20 manage.

21 A. Adem Hopovac's wife knew what was happening because there was

22 cleansing in Zecovi on the same day.

23 Q. You offered her to come with you to Carakovo?

24 A. Yes, I did.

25 Q. On page 28, line 2 of today's transcript, you talk about eight

Page 5769

1 dead bodies.

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. When you informed a man about that and about your need to go to

4 see who these people were --

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. -- you mentioned the following: "Maybe they are not from our

7 village."

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Does that mean that around your village, there were some people

10 who were not from that area?

11 A. I thought it was people from Hambarine, because there were men

12 from Hambarine staying with us, too. It wasn't only women and children. I

13 wasn't that nearby at the first moment; but then the next time again when

14 I returned with these people, I recognised them.

15 Q. Did Serb soldiers come to your village during the day or during

16 the night?

17 A. Both day and night. During the night, they would go down where

18 they held this checkpoint in the village. They would get drunk, and there

19 they would come drunk. They would shoot during the night, and then we

20 would flee into the forest. During the day, they would go around looting.

21 They took anything they wanted from the houses because they knew that

22 there was no one at home.

23 Q. Do you know, or rather, did you perhaps hear about this in Travnik

24 or wherever you may have been after that, that in the forest of Kurevo,

25 there was fighting in 1993 as well?

Page 5770

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13 English transcripts.

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Page 5771

1 A. I did hear that there had been some after us, that after we left,

2 that there was some young people who stayed behind, young Muslims. Now

3 whether there actually were some or there weren't any, that, I cannot say.

4 Q. On page 39, line 15 of today's transcript, you refer to an

5 incident when Tintar killed Hasib.

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. How far away was Hasib from you when Tintar killed him?

8 A. We were standing on the left-hand side of the road, and the bridge

9 is on the right-hand side, just sort of across. And then -- and it was

10 like 8 metres, 6 plus 2, yeah, 8.

11 Q. In your statement dated 2000, on page 6, paragraph 7 of the B/C/S

12 version, and the English version is page 6, paragraph 5, you say that

13 "they were 100 metres away."

14 A. No. No, I'm telling you. I was on one side of the road, and on

15 the other side is the bridge. The man wanted to go into the bus, and

16 Drago Tintar returned him pulling him by the hand this way. And then so

17 the road is 6 metres, and the bridge an additional 2, so it's not only

18 that I could see it; the whole bus could see it.

19 Q. So what is recorded in your statement here is not correct; what

20 you told us today is correct.

21 A. Yes, yes, I'm telling you.

22 MR. LUKIC: [In English] Your Honours, this concludes my

23 cross-examination.

24 [Interpretation] Thank you, madam, for having answered my

25 questions.

Page 5772

1 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Are there any questions in re-examination?

2 MR. WAIDYARATNE: No, Your Honour.

3 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Thank you. We have to thank you for coming and

4 providing us with your information.

5 Any additional questions by the Judges? That's not the case.

6 Then you are excused for today. Thank you for coming.

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, too.

8 [The witness withdrew]

9 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: The trial stays adjourned until 12.45. And I

10 would ask the parties to be prepared that we go to some documents in List

11 2, 3, and 4.

12 --- Recess taken at 12.14 p.m.

13 --- On resuming at 12.47 p.m.

14 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Please be seated. During the break, I heard

15 some rumour that this concludes the case of the Prosecutor. Is this

16 correct?

17 MR. LUKIC: No objections, Your Honour.

18 MR. KOUMJIAN: For the week it looks like that way. We don't have

19 another witness this week lined up. We anticipated this witness would

20 take more than a day.

21 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: One and a half hour as you said, correctly.

22 Extremely precise.

23 MR. KOUMJIAN: Mr. Waidyaratne is very accurate, I guess.

24 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: So may I ask, indeed, we can't proceed this way,

25 to be serious. What is expected, at least by tomorrow?

Page 5773

1 MR. KOUMJIAN: We don't have a witness lined up for tomorrow. We

2 could, if we start calling -- all of our witnesses live in other

3 countries. We don't have any left that live in this country, with the

4 possible exception of part of the demographer's -- the demographer has

5 been out of town, but I think is back today. Part of he demographer's

6 evidence we might be able to call tomorrow, but I have to check and see if

7 she did return today. And I don't know if the Defence is ready to do that

8 cross-examination.

9 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: What Mr. Inayat?

10 MR. KOUMJIAN: Mr. Inayat is here, but what remains for him to

11 testify to is the sourcing of all the documents. We haven't put in all

12 the documents yet. One thing I could do by tomorrow, this afternoon, is

13 go through and find many, if not all the rest, many more of the documents

14 that we intend to introduce and at least introduce them. I don't know if

15 the Court actually wants to read those tomorrow, but we could do that.

16 But personally I don't think it would be productive to have Mr. Inayat

17 testify again only partially because he will have to testify when we have

18 completed all of our documents coming into evidence as to the sourcing of

19 all the documents. If Your Honours wish to have him testify tomorrow and

20 then again later in the case, that could be done. But also, Mr. Ostojic

21 had started the cross-examination, and he's not here this week. That's my

22 understanding.

23 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: For the entire week not here. Okay. But sorry

24 to say, we have to proceed, and we can't stop once again an entire day,

25 and therefore I would ask the OTP to take care to do what is possible as

Page 5774

1 regards witnesses or experts being in The Hague.

2 MR. KOUMJIAN: Actually, the only expert report that's prepared

3 and disclosed would be the demographer. And actually that is being

4 revised. However half of it is done that's the demographer. I have asked

5 for a revision because that report is several years old, and the data now

6 is much more precise as to the total number missing, killed and exhumed

7 during the relevant period. I know part of the reason that that report is

8 not done is because we had anticipated getting this latest version of the

9 book of missing persons electronically which we were supposed to get by

10 the -- they said at the earliest by the end of June, but that has not yet

11 arrived. So that's what's holding that up, but I could check with her and

12 see if she is available tomorrow if Mr. Lukic is prepared to cross-examine

13 her, or I could at least put on her direct examination.

14 Excuse me, Ms. Karper tells me that that report has not been

15 disclosed, but this is one that was disclosed before the trial began.

16 Maybe not.

17 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: If the report is not yet disclosed, then indeed

18 I don't dare even to ask the Defence whether or not they are prepared.

19 MR. LUKIC: I have to admit that we are not prepared, Your Honour.

20 MR. KOUMJIAN: For understandable reasons; we haven't disclosed

21 it.

22 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: So therefore, it remains to proceed with

23 Mr. Inayat step by step, and I have to ask the OTP to be prepared that we

24 can hear Mr. Inayat at least the next step of introducing documents the

25 OTP believes are of utmost relevance and they want to introduce into the

Page 5775

1 case as soon as possible. So therefore, we should start tomorrow early

2 doing this.

3 But before we come to this point, then tomorrow, I think we have

4 to go through what we have as documents and what is still missing. First,

5 I recall that Witness Minka Cehajic told us that she would send us a

6 letter by fax, and this fax has arrived as it was in the courtroom, and is

7 this document now prepared?

8 MR. KOUMJIAN: Your Honour, we have the document. I'm not sure

9 that the translation is back yet, but we can check on that.

10 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: If you please could be so kind and check it also

11 for tomorrow.

12 MR. KOUMJIAN: Your Honour, also this morning, Your Honour

13 mentioned List 4. We have that to be distributed, or perhaps it has been

14 distributed. We have it here to be distributed, and perhaps that could be

15 given an exhibit number to be marked next in order.

16 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Yes, please. Feel free to distribute this. And

17 I understand it would be in exchange of the list we had starting with

18 S172. Right?

19 MR. KOUMJIAN: Yes, this goes from S172 through S179.

20 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Right.

21 MR. KOUMJIAN: In addition, one other --

22 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: I don't think that we need a new exhibit number;

23 we just exchange this as first pages of List 4.

24 THE REGISTRAR: I'm sorry, Your Honour, the initial List 4 was not

25 marked, so shall we assign a number now?

Page 5776

1 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: I think we have special binders, list called

2 List 4, and after that we have the documents from 172 until 179. It's

3 just as a kind of cover sheet.

4 MR. KOUMJIAN: One other minor matter, some week or two ago, I was

5 given a diagram of the courtroom layout where it has been marked, someone

6 has marked 97 square metres. I think I had asked if the Court could put

7 on the record some kind of estimate of the size of the courtroom because

8 witnesses have referred to this courtroom in comparing it to the

9 facilities in which they were detained. Could the Court make that

10 estimate, or would the Defence counsel agree to that, that this courtroom

11 contains approximately 97 square metres in space?

12 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Would you please be so kind and let the usher

13 bring this document to the Defence and then to the Bench. Thank you. If

14 the OTP could be so kind and give a copy to the parties and to the Judges,

15 and then we would have this as a formal exhibit. I can't see any

16 objections. This would then be S189.

17 THE REGISTRAR: S189.

18 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Admitted into evidence.

19 MR. KOUMJIAN: Regarding copies, that is what I received from -- I

20 thought it was from Your Honours I received that. Okay, I guess from the

21 Registry I received it.

22 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Okay. Then before turning to other documents --

23 MR. KOUMJIAN: Your Honour, we do have the colour copies that Your

24 Honours requested.

25 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: All of them?

Page 5777

1 MR. KOUMJIAN: Yes, apparently. We think so.

2 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: If they could be distributed, please, and once

3 again, let's take them under the exhibit numbers we have already adduced

4 to these documents, only additional -1 in each case.

5 Thank you.

6 Then on the documents, the missing translation I mentioned this

7 morning was on Document S151 A. This was a videotape with Witness

8 Sejmenovic, and here we had only a mixture of English and B/C/S already.

9 And a kind of draft translation. This was missing. And I take it

10 that -- yes, please.

11 MR. KOUMJIAN: That has been submitted to CLSS for a revised

12 translation.

13 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Then as regards Document 157, transcripts would

14 be appreciated. It was a press conference.

15 MR. KOUMJIAN: Very well. We'll get transcripts of that.

16 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Then we need a translation of Document S44 B.

17 This was a letter from a witness. I think it was Witness A. Right? It

18 was already from the 9th of May.

19 MR. KOUMJIAN: Your Honour, I think that was Mr. Murselovic, not

20 Witness A, who provided a dismissal, if I recall correctly, it was. He

21 had a copy, but we also had a copy which I believe is S45 that has been

22 translated. So I think there was some issue about his copy, how he got

23 it, and he indicated that both the front and back were on one paper when

24 he first photocopied it. But S45, I believe, I have been told, is the

25 same as S44 and is translated.

Page 5778

1 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Thank you for this clarification. Then we have

2 still open a motion filed by the Defence substituting a former motion

3 under Rule 95. We asked for observations by the OTP due for today.

4 MR. KOUMJIAN: I know I made a draft, and apparently it's not yet

5 filed. So when it has been slightly revised, but it will be filed -- is

6 it ready now? I'll ask that it be brought down. Certainly it's very

7 close to being filed.

8 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Then for the following exercise, I need to a

9 certain extent the assistance of the OTP, especially one may to say to

10 disclose what are the documents they regard as of such an outstanding

11 importance that they need to be read out in addition? I take it that the

12 documents S59 and following are already read out, but not S81, if the list

13 of the Registry gives me the correct answers. S81.

14 THE REGISTRAR: Number 65 ter 257, for the booth.

15 MR. KOUMJIAN: Your Honour, this would be one that we think is

16 very important.

17 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: I'm afraid it was not read out because we didn't

18 have it before us at that day. May I ask the Registry to read out this in

19 English, please.

20 THE REGISTRAR: "/handwritten: Simo Markovic/Serbian Republic of

21 Bosnia and Herzegovina/handwritten 49/Krajina autonomous

22 region/handwritten:/? 50/Prijedor Municipality. Crisis Staff.

23 "Number: 02-111-237/92.

24 "Date: 23 June, 1992.

25 "Pursuant to Articles 3 and 7 of the decision on the organisation

Page 5779

1 and work of the Prijedor Municipality Crisis Staff, the Prijedor

2 Municipality Crisis Staff at a session held on 23 June, 1992, took the

3 following decision:

4 "One, it is forbidden to use funds from the accounts of economic

5 enterprises and independent shops whose owners were killed, have moved

6 away, or were arrested for armed intervention.

7 "Two, approval is hereby given for the municipal secretariat for

8 the economy to temporarily use the funds in the giro accounts of

9 the/people/referred to in the preceding paragraph in the form of a loan.

10 "Three, the Prijedor SDK/public auditing service/and the municipal

11 secretariat of the economy shall see to the implementation of this

12 decision.

13 "Four, this decision comes into effect on the day it is adopted.

14 "Delivered to: One, Prijedor SDK; two, municipal secretariat for

15 the economy; three, files.

16 "/Handwritten: For/president of the Crisis Staff, Milomir

17 Stakic./signature and stamped/".

18 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Thank you. This brings me to a former request

19 as regards an overview on the interrelationship amongst the documents

20 presented by the OTP. And I would be grateful if the OTP in this context

21 could provide us with a synopsis showing which of these documents we have

22 here before us were published in the Official Gazette of Prijedor we have

23 before us as S180 and S181.

24 MR. KOUMJIAN: That's already been assigned to someone to

25 prepare.

Page 5780

1 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Then, what about S90? According to the list

2 before me, it was not yet read out. This may be due to the fact that at

3 that time, we read out in context documents bearing a kind of signature at

4 least. And here, we don't have any. Therefore, this document should be

5 read out knowing that on that what is called the original, there is no

6 signature at all. But could it be read out now. It was the former 65

7 ter, number 365.

8 THE REGISTRAR: "Minutes of the session of the National Defence

9 Council of the Prijedor Municipal Assembly held at 1200 hours on 29th

10 September, 1992 in the offices of the Prijedor Municipal Assembly. The

11 session was presided over by Dr. Milomir Stakic, president of the council.

12 The session was attended by: Dr. Milomir Stakic, Dragan Savanovic,

13 Dr. Milan Kovacevic, Radmilo Zeljaja, Bosko Mandic, Slavko Budimir, Ranko

14 Travar, Simo Drljaca, and Miljenko Rajlic. The minutes were taken by

15 Spiro Marmat. The following agenda was agreed for this session.

16 "Agenda, 1, discussion about the minutes of the previous session

17 of the National Defence Council.

18 " 2, report on the forthcoming activities regarding the open

19 Trnopolje reception centre.

20 "3, ensuring an adequate number of teachers for the normal work of

21 the schools.

22 "Item 1: Discussion of the minutes of the previous session of the

23 National Defence Council.

24 "After the discussion, the following was concluded: 1, the

25 minutes of the previous session of the National Defence Council were

Page 5781

1 approved.

2 Item 2: Report on the forthcoming activities regarding the open

3 Trnopolje reception centre. After the discussion, the following was

4 concluded:

5 1, the National Defence Council will take on all the essential

6 obligations regarding the unhindered arrival of all persons from the open

7 Trnopolje reception centre according to a list agreed by the Municipal Red

8 Cross and the International Red Cross.

9 "2, the public security station in Prijedor will provide escort

10 for the convoy and the secretariat for the economy and social services

11 will provide vehicles and fuel.

12 "3, the Municipal Red Cross will be advised to close down the open

13 Trnopolje reception as the departure of all registered persons from this

14 reception centre effectively makes it unnecessary.

15 "Item 3, ensuring an adequate number of teachers for the normal

16 work of the schools. After the discussion, the following was concluded:

17 1, it was recommended by to the army command that it agree on the

18 requirements with the school directors on the basis of written requests

19 and to exempt from military service all teachers essential for the normal

20 teaching process.

21 "It was also concluded that: 1, the 3.000 liters of petrol

22 [Regular] which has arrived to be distributed to the battalion commands to

23 meet the requirements of their soldiers. Petrol requirements by

24 battalions will be determined by the tactical group command.

25 "The chairman closed the session at 1330 hours.

Page 5782

1 "Minutes taken by Spiro Marmat.

2 "President of the National Defence Council, Dr. Milomir Stakic."

3 MR. KOUMJIAN: Your Honour, I see the translation does not

4 indicate it, but looking at the original, I think it should be noted that

5 it indicates "Stakic, Dr. Milomir, SR" We had some testimony about what

6 that meant.

7 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Thank you for this additional remark. May we

8 then turn to the former 65 ter number 455, which is now S92. Do you need

9 another copy?

10 THE REGISTRAR: "Supplement to instructions on the establishment,

11 composition, and tasks of area Crisis Staffs in Prijedor Municipality.

12 "I: The Crisis Substaffs referred to in Item 11 of instructions

13 on the establishment, composition, and tasks of area Crisis Staffs in

14 Prijedor Municipality consist of:

15 "1, president of the Crisis Substaff;.

16 "2, vice-president of the Crisis Substaff;.

17 "3, assistant to the president for civilian protection;.

18 "4, assistant to the president for political work and

19 information; and.

20 "5, assistant to the president for logistics.

21 "Apart from establishing working groups, commissions, and other

22 working bodies for specific tasks, the Crisis Substaffs shall also appoint

23 the following permanent officers: Supply officer, officer for

24 quartermaster support, officer for transport and technical support,

25 purchasing officer, health-care officer.

Page 5783

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Page 5784

1 "The work of these officers shall be directed, coordinated, and

2 directly managed by the assistant to the president for logistics.

3 "II: The provisions of instructions on the establishment,

4 composition, and tasks of area Crisis Substaffs in Prijedor Municipality

5 shall by extension apply to the work of Crisis Substaffs in accordance

6 with their area of competence/as printed/"

7 "President of the Crisis Staff of Prijedor Municipality, Milomir

8 Stakic/stamped/".

9 MR. KOUMJIAN: I think Your Honour anticipates, I'd like to make

10 the same observation on this document except to note that while the last

11 one was written in Latin script, this document is written in Cyrillic.

12 And again, next to the name of "Milomir Stakic" appear the Cyrillic

13 letters SR.

14 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Thank you for this. May I turn to the document

15 I just had, this was the former 65 ter number 440. And on purpose, I

16 didn't take it as it is. Does the OTP have the original radio tape in its

17 possession?

18 MR. KOUMJIAN: I think we do, I'll check on that.

19 For the Court's information, I believe that we seized, the during

20 one of the searches, nine radio tapes. This is one of them.

21 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Because here, we have to go back to the most

22 original document. And in this case, it would be the tape, and the tape

23 would have to be played. Could this be done tomorrow?

24 MR. KOUMJIAN: Yes.

25 We also have the motion -- the response to the defendant Stakic's

Page 5785

1 motion to bar and exclude evidence regarding the testimony of

2 Mr. Sejmenovic. That is already to be distributed.

3 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Could you please be so kind and read it out so

4 that we have immediately the access in French also. Thank you for this.

5 MR. KOUMJIAN: It has not been filed yet, but it will be.

6 Your Honour, it's filed as confidential, because there's a portion

7 of it that was confidential in the Defence motion.

8 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: We have to go into private session, please.

9 [Private session]

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 5786

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12 Pages 5786 to 5795 redacted private session.

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Page 5796

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.46 a.m., to

20 be reconvened on Tuesday, the 9th day of July, 2002,

21 at 10.00 a.m.

22

23

24

25