Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 5864

1 Monday, 15 July 2002

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 2.31 p.m.

5 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Please be seated. We will hear first the case.

6 THE REGISTRAR: Good afternoon, this is Case Number IT-97-24-T,

7 the Prosecutor versus Milomir Stakic.

8 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: And the appearances.

9 MR. KOUMJIAN: Good afternoon, Your Honours. Nicholas Koumjian

10 and Ann Sutherland assisted by Ruth Karper for the Prosecution.

11 MR. LUKIC: Good afternoon, Your Honours. Mr. Branko Lukic for

12 the Defence.

13 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Is Mr. Ostojic coming back?

14 MR. LUKIC: Yes, we are expecting him, Your Honour.

15 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Just before we start with today's witness, we

16 just in the courtroom received numerous documents. It's never too late.

17 But for tomorrow, it's really poor what we have. It's two lines and one

18 sentence. Is there anything additional for Witness 59?

19 MR. KOUMJIAN: Your Honour, there's some additional material

20 coming at the break. It will be ready at the break.

21 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: The break today?

22 MR. KOUMJIAN: Today, yes.

23 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: I heard that there was an appointment between

24 Judge Lindholm and the Defence to review the documents on Wednesday.

25 MR. LUKIC: Yes, Your Honour. 11.00 a.m., Wednesday.

Page 5865

1 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: So the there would be no further obstacle for

2 starting the exercise with the forensic handwriting expert. Correct?

3 MR. KOUMJIAN: Actually, there is an obstacle which I would like

4 to address the Court about.

5 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Yes, please.

6 MR. KOUMJIAN: Obviously, we're anxious to get those documents as

7 soon as possible. And also I would request if documents are excluded,

8 since this is an ex parte hearing, that at least the Prosecution gets some

9 notice of the general nature of the documents that were excluded.

10 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: If any.

11 MR. KOUMJIAN: If any.

12 Regarding the two experts that Your Honours requested, because

13 both experts will be dealing with documents that overlap, there's a

14 problem about who we give those original documents to. We've not yet

15 identified a -- the handwriting expert. We have identified a potential

16 expert regarding the document analysis. Those experts were contacted

17 today, and I'm awaiting a fax from them, but I have been told from my

18 investigator that they told him I believe this morning that they could not

19 complete their report by the 26th of August, and that they would need the

20 physical custody of the documents for quite some period of time. I'm not

21 sure of the exact period of time.

22 Those same documents would have to go to the handwriting expert.

23 It was just my initial reaction, which I wanted to confirm with Your

24 Honours, that the handwriting expert would get priority and that Your

25 Honours would prefer the documents first go to the handwriting expert

Page 5866

1 rather than the document examiner to compare the machines in which they

2 were printed on. And there would be a -- it is a smaller set regarding

3 the handwriting, since the handwriting originals only include those that

4 we believe were signed by Dr. Stakic. As I understood Your Honours'

5 request, the document examiner really was going to compare those to also

6 originals that are only typed with no signature.

7 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Right, indeed, there was a -- how can I call

8 it -- hidden hope, that the expert would have the expertise for both

9 exercises. But if not, priority has to be given without any doubt to the

10 handwriting expert. Probably the other expert, if two experts are needed,

11 could start on the basis of the documents where no such signature can be

12 found, and then transfer the other documents to the second expert. To

13 emphasise, if two experts are really needed. But as you just heard, the

14 new additional material, handwriting material, will be ready by Wednesday.

15 And as far as I have heard, it's only very, very limited. And so there is

16 a likelihood that you'll receive it on Wednesday.

17 MR. KOUMJIAN: We're having some trouble with one of the potential

18 experts that we had, although the person had some background in former

19 Yugoslavia, did not feel comfortable making any comparisons with

20 Cyrillic. Also the lab we contacted regarding the documentation said they

21 would not feel comfortable. It was a western country's crime lab, dealing

22 with documents in Cyrillic. We are attempting to contact one country

23 where Cyrillic is the principal alphabet, but so far we have not been able

24 to get a commitment from them that they would be able to do it. And it is

25 looking difficult to get that commitment. And I'm not sure how they would

Page 5867

1 deal with the Latin. They may have the same problem dealing with Latin.

2 I'm not sure. But we're working on those, just to alert Your Honours to

3 those issues.

4 Also, when Your Honours would like, I'd like to address the

5 schedule for the next two weeks.

6 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Thank you. We would appreciate.

7 MR. KOUMJIAN: For this week, Your Honour, we have two witnesses.

8 The present witness we anticipated would take up to two days, but

9 Ms. Sutherland who proofed him thinks it may be shorter. He is apparently

10 very direct in answering questions. The next witness is Witness Number

11 59, is Mr. Mayhew, and he will be arriving tomorrow night and he will

12 testify on Wednesday.

13 For the following week, we have two --

14 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Sorry, isn't there a Thursday in this week?

15 MR. KOUMJIAN: He will be more than one day.

16 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: In anticipation. Okay.

17 MR. KOUMJIAN: I think we estimate him at one and a half or two

18 days.

19 For the following week, there was -- there are two witnesses that

20 we had -- I mentioned this last week. Two witnesses that we had

21 anticipated calling this month, crime-based witnesses, who now it appears

22 we will not be able to call, because they refuse to come, basically. One

23 has medical problems and the other is refusing to respond, but also,

24 according to the spouse of that person, has medical problems.

25 In order to replace those, both of them, I believe, talk about the

Page 5868

1 Benkovac barracks, or one of them does. The Benkovac barracks killings,

2 one of the charged killings. We previously put in an application for

3 Witness Number 42 to testify via 92 bis. We would like to call that

4 witness live next week. We've actually arranged that with the witness

5 tentatively. So the witness would be here Monday to testify, because that

6 would then be the live witness for that killing, and we will not have any

7 other live witnesses.

8 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: That would be the former witness number?

9 MR. KOUMJIAN: 42. We also anticipate as I mentioned last week --

10 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: And this witness, sorry to interrupt, for one

11 day or for two days?

12 MR. KOUMJIAN: I think one and a half would be a rough estimate.

13 We anticipated, as I mentioned last week, the demographer, Ms.

14 Tabeau testifying, simply regarding part of her report that was disclosed,

15 that is, the demographic changes, without going into the sections on the

16 number of people missing and killed, because that is -- data is two years

17 old and she is in the process of updating that with newly available data.

18 And that report, however, will not be ready until, probably, the beginning

19 of August. So we anticipate that she would have to testify again in

20 September regarding that part, an updated report regarding the persons who

21 were killed or missing and the socioeconomic status of those persons. We

22 could call next week Mr. Inayat, because we're running out of -- we simply

23 don't anticipate that those two witnesses will take the whole week. We

24 may even finish those in two days, two or three days. So Mr. Inayat will

25 be available along with a very - we have some - I finished going through

Page 5869

1 all of the -- almost all of the documents on our original 65 ter list,

2 actually all of those, there are some new ones that have been added. And

3 we will put in our list 6 which will hopefully include all of the

4 documents that we will submit in the case. There may be a few

5 miscellaneous ones that will come in through the witnesses. But that list

6 6 should be ready, and we could call Mr. Inayat to testify regarding the

7 sources of all the documents that have been admitted so far.

8 Just so Your Honours know, Mr. Mayhew, the next witness after the

9 one today, I have been told has cancelled a seminar to be here this week.

10 He has been very cooperative in trying to fit our schedule, his schedule

11 to our schedule. And Ms. Sutherland would like to address you regarding

12 the protective measures for the witness who will testify today.

13 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: May we first ask the Defence, are there any

14 observations to be made on the plannings for the next two weeks,

15 especially, will Mr. Ostojic be present when we may hear once again

16 Mr. Inayat?

17 MR. LUKIC: Mr. Ostojic will be present, Your Honour.

18 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Any other additional problems or observations

19 from your side?

20 MR. LUKIC: Mr. Ostojic will cross-examine Mr. Mayhew as well, so

21 we really need him in this courtroom and hopefully he will be here.

22 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Thank you. Then we start with the preparation,

23 first, of our next witness, Ms. Sutherland.

24 MS. SUTHERLAND: Thank you, Your Honour. I wish to make an

25 application, oral application, that the next witness be heard in closed

Page 5870

1 session. The witness was originally granted a pseudonym with image and

2 voice distortion; however, on speaking with the witness yesterday and

3 going over areas of proposed testimony, it will mean that there are a

4 large number of areas where we would need to go into private session. And

5 it would mean jumping in and out constantly --

6 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: I don't think that you have to give additional

7 reasons. When discussing the issue this morning, I already wondered why

8 only these protective measures and why not closed session. Any objections

9 against closed session?

10 MR. LUKIC: No, Your Honour, we never object to any kind of

11 protective measures.

12 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, I thought the same thing as I was

13 reviewing the statement, but the Prosecution, and the Defence I think

14 also, would want to hear as much evidence as possible in open session, and

15 we thought we were trying to do the right thing. But it's just going to

16 be impossible, I think. And it would flow much more freely if it was in

17 closed.

18 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Good to know -- we'll proceed this way. But I

19 forgot one issue,and this was related to a 92 bis statement with (redacted)

20 (redacted). We first wanted to hear this person as a live witness. Then we

21 compromised, videolink, to do it with the assistance of a videolink. And

22 then finally, having heard the arguments, we agreed that 92 bis would be

23 sufficient. But I heard that there would be additional obstacles. Is

24 that correct?

25 MR. KOUMJIAN: Yes, this is Witness number 60 -- sorry, 1-6, 16.

Page 5871

1 If Your Honour could redact the name.

2 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Yes, please. The witness name may be redacted.

3 MR. KOUMJIAN: Your Honour, we applied to the registry for an

4 officer to go take that statement, and apparently there is a problem in

5 coordinating with the registry and a time when that can take place. The

6 witness, according to the information I received, rather difficult in some

7 ways, and is elderly. There's one investigator in Sarajevo who has spoken

8 to the witness many times before, and the witness knows. We tried to

9 coordinate to have that investigator present. And apparently, there's a

10 problem. The registry says it's not possible to send an officer during

11 that period of time that the investigator will be here. And I think the

12 registry was suggesting a date in September when that investigator will no

13 longer be in Bosnia.

14 It is a five-hour drive from Sarajevo to the location.

15 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: But I think this is a really serious issue, and

16 I really would like to see whether or not there was an exchange of

17 opinions in writing because in this Tribunal, it's unfortunately sometimes

18 necessary to address who is responsible for the one or other issue. And

19 when Judges have to decide it, to do so, it has to be done, and it has to

20 be done in the framework of the time given. Probably, it may be

21 relatively high costs caused by hearing a new statement of this witness,

22 but compared to the additional costs for the international taxpayers when

23 we are once again belated in this case, and taking into account what it

24 means for an accused to be under detention, trial pending, for reasons he

25 is not responsible for, then the only solution can be that the registry

Page 5872

1 has to act and has to act immediately, even if it means that one officer

2 has to go to this town being apparently some hours away from, say,

3 Sarajevo. So we expect that this 92 bis statement will be taken no later

4 than the last day of August.

5 Any other problems in this direction?

6 MR. KOUMJIAN: As Your Honour asked me the question, I was handed

7 a note that the videolink witness, Witness Number 36, has contacted the

8 OTP to tell us that the witness's spouse is very ill. The witness does

9 not know if the witness can appear at the videolink on the 29th of July

10 and was asking for the 1st of August. If Your Honour would like, I can

11 double check this information at the break and see...

12 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: The 1st of August would be fine because you may

13 know, we have the entire day. This probably facilitates this procedure.

14 But please tell the Chamber if it's necessary as regards the other witness

15 we discussed just recently whether it's necessary to have a Court order to

16 the registry. No doubt, we wouldn't hesitate.

17 MR. KOUMJIAN: Thank you.

18 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: So the witness may be brought in, and we go,

19 please, into closed session.

20 [Closed session]

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 5873

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12 Pages 5873 to 5939 redacted closed session.

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

Page 5940

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at

22 6.55 p.m., to be reconvened on

23 Tuesday, the 16th day of July, 2002,

24 at 2.15 p.m.

25