International Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 7043

1 Wednesday, 28 August 2002

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 9.33 a.m.

5 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Very good morning to everybody. May we please

6 hear the case.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning. This is Case Number IT-97-24-T, the

8 Prosecutor versus Milomir Stakic.

9 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Thank you. And the enlarged appearances for the

10 OTP.

11 MR. KOUMJIAN: Good morning, Your Honour. Nicholas Koumjian,

12 Kapila Waidyaratne, and Ruth Karper for the Prosecution.

13 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: And for the Defence.

14 MR. LUKIC: Good morning, Your Honours. Branko Lukic,

15 John Ostojic, and Danilo Cirkovic for the Defence.

16 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Thank you.

17 Before starting, I have to express my gratitude that already

18 today, the registry has provided us with a list of the documents of

19 yesterday. No doubt that during this marathon, there was a slight

20 mistake, but we can rely on this List 6 of the new documents. I hope you

21 all have it with you, and it ends with S276A, Official Gazette Number 1.

22 Not to forget, having now Official Gazette Number 1, this makes greedy

23 [phoen] in the direction.

24 What about the last Official Gazette before this Official Gazette

25 Number 1? Remember, we discussed the issue whether or not there was a

Page 7044

1 change of the board of editors in Kozarski Vjesnik, and I think it's of

2 some interest whether or not there was a change or some continuity in the

3 Official Gazettes in Prijedor. And therefore, I would invite the OTP to

4 go through their own documents, whether or not they have available the

5 last former Official Gazette before this one, Number 1, from May 1992.

6 We have to come back to some of these documents during the hearing

7 of Madam Tabeau and Mr. Inayat. Having had a look on the issues already

8 at stake as regards Mr. Inayat, I would ask the parties whether or not it

9 could be possible that the parties have, first of all, a meeting with

10 Mr. Inayat for a first clarification of formalities of the core issues and

11 the central issues which are really relevant for this case - they have, no

12 doubt, to be discussed in the courtroom. But that we can already exclude

13 the first layer of more or less formal problems in this informal setting.

14 And I would appreciate if the parties could agree on this procedure.

15 MR. OSTOJIC: That's acceptable, Your Honour, to the Defence.

16 MR. KOUMJIAN: I'm not prepared yet to do that, but I think it

17 could set a precedent of having our witnesses preinterviewed that we do

18 not want to see established. Unless the Defence will allow me to

19 interview all their witnesses before they testify. It's the same --

20 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: I don't think it's now -- it's not a question of

21 interviewing a witness; it's a question of clarification how some

22 documents were found or not. I think --

23 MR. KOUMJIAN: I would propose alternatively that I could get

24 together with the Defence if there's questions about our procedures, and I

25 can give them information that they may request regarding this.

Page 7045

1 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Sometimes the Judges should have also advantages

2 from this party system, and therefore I invite the parties to find out the

3 best way how to proceed in the way that we can really concentrate on the

4 core issues that we can call issues worthwhile discussing in the

5 courtroom, because no doubt to a certain extent Mr. Inayat is part of one

6 of the parties in this case.

7 So let's -- if there are no other administrative matters, I can't

8 see them. Then we -- Mr. Koumjian, please.

9 MR. KOUMJIAN: Sorry, just to remind Your Honour, we do have --

10 Your Honours requested to view originals of some of the documents.

11 Provisional S254, S258, S264, which was a Kozarski Vjesnik I believe. Is

12 this the one the Court asked for better copies? Those copies are

13 available, and the original can be viewed.

14 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: May it please be presented first to the Defence,

15 and then to the Bench.

16 Okay, let's start with the copy of S264. Can we all agree that

17 this is readable, and therefore a copy to work with of Kozarski Vjesnik of

18 25 September, 1992, S264B.

19 MR. LUKIC: Your Honour, we can accept that this is the original.

20 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Yes, we have seen for the transcript the

21 original Radno Izdenje of Kozarski Vjesnik of 25 September, 1992, page 2

22 in front of us, and we have seen that this is a real copy. Thank you for

23 this. This problem has been solved. Thank you.

24 Then let's turn to Document S258. Are there any comments by the

25 OTP as regards to this combination of two sheets of paper?

Page 7046

1 MR. KOUMJIAN: No, Your Honour. Apparently they were attached

2 when found. The faxed document or the sheet showing the fax number is

3 not -- at this point we don't see any particular -- it's not of particular

4 interest to us. But it was attached to the other document. It may have

5 some information regarding how that document was received at the location

6 where it was seized.

7 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Probably there remains a question for

8 Mr. Inayat, some problems from the side of the Defence.

9 MR. LUKIC: Hopefully we'll be able to clarify that matter with

10 Mr. Inayat, yes, Your Honour.

11 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: But we have seen and clarified that indeed there

12 were two sheets of papers, and therefore having seen the documents, these

13 documents are admitted into evidence as S258A-1, the stripe with fax

14 coordinates, and the attached document, -2. The original may be returned

15 to the OTP.

16 Then S254, I can see by the red registration number that indeed

17 evidently you didn't get a better copy. Or this --

18 MR. KOUMJIAN: That's the original that we seized, or that's the

19 document we seized.

20 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: The document seized. And I think it was already

21 admitted into evidence. Please correct me, Madam Registrar, if not. It

22 was admitted. Here it remains only to have at least an attempt to

23 translate the content of the stamp that we find at the bottom of this

24 document. The document may be returned to the OTP. Thank you.

25 So if we can rely on the list before us, it remains only to be

Page 7047

1 shown the original of S267, and not yet admitted was S273. Correct?

2 MR. KOUMJIAN: I believe some of those documents have already been

3 submitted for analysis, and they are out of the building. So that may

4 take some time. They are not available for a period of time. We'll check

5 on that, though.

6 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: They should be available in due time before we

7 hear Mr. Inayat in the courtroom once again.

8 MR. KOUMJIAN: That may require taking them away from the document

9 examiners, and we can do that.

10 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Let's find a solution in the moment we have

11 fixed the date for the hearing of Mr. Inayat.

12 So anything else to be discussed urgently this morning? Yes,

13 please.

14 MR. OSTOJIC: Good morning, Your Honour. I do have one issue that

15 was raised by the Court yesterday towards the conclusion of our session.

16 And it was I think an interesting and important matter which perhaps we

17 can address this morning.

18 The Court seemed to suggest that various witnesses should be

19 compelled to call, either by the Office of the Prosecution, the Defence,

20 or by the Court as permitted by the rules. Although we do not want and do

21 not intend to infringe upon the rights of other defendants in this case,

22 such as Mr. Mrdja, General Talic, or Mr. Brdjanin, we do believe that

23 there was one particular witness that might be helpful to us that the

24 Office of the Prosecutor has interviewed who is a defendant who was

25 represented during the interview process. The issues relating to

Page 7048

1 Dr. Biljana Plavsic we believe may be relevant to this case if indeed the

2 Office of the Prosecutor intends to continue with their allegations and

3 assertions based upon joint action and concert with criminal activity.

4 With respect to the subcategories of all those issues, we believe that

5 Dr. Plavsic voluntarily, based upon information believed while being

6 represented by counsel, has given extensive interviews to the OTP on these

7 and other matters.

8 By way of background, the Court may already know that Dr. Plavsic

9 was one of five members of the presidency of Bosnia-Herzegovina and

10 Republika Srpska, in particular, during the relevant time periods in this

11 case. Although we don't know the sum and substance of that interview or

12 the matters in which she responded to, we believe that it may be of

13 assistance to both the Court and the Defence in establishing some of these

14 preliminary yet fundamental issues.

15 So we would ask orally and, if necessary, in writing that the OTP

16 provide and produce that interview and those documents to us at a

17 reasonable time.

18 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: I can understand your contribution.

19 Nevertheless, you will understand that the notion "may be of assistance"

20 seems not to be enough. It should be more concrete as to what points

21 Dr. Plavsic may and really can assist us in finding the truth and justice

22 in this case. And therefore, it would indeed be helpful for the

23 evaluation and the decision on this issue if the Defence could provide us

24 with a document or in writing what they expect to hear from Dr. Plavsic

25 and, in addition, the relevance for this case inconcreto for what charges,

Page 7049

1 in relation to what facts. And then no doubt, we have to decide whether

2 to ask the OTP or whether to act ex officio. If not, the OTP plans ex

3 officio to call Dr. Plavsic in this case.

4 And it still remains open, and I want to ask the representative of

5 the OTP: When will the Defence counsel of Mr. Mrdja arrive in The Hague

6 in order to find out whether or not it is possible, necessary, mandatory,

7 to hear Mr. Mrdja in this case?

8 MR. KOUMJIAN: Well, I can tell the Court informally, because

9 again I did speak to him but I don't represent him by any means, that he

10 told me he was trying to arrange with the registry to come next week.

11 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Next week.

12 MR. KOUMJIAN: I just want to make it clear that our position in

13 the OTP is we decide which witnesses we're going to call on our case. If

14 the Defence wants to call witnesses, they can call witness in their case.

15 But I think the rules envision that the choice of witnesses by the OTP is

16 our choice. The Court also has the power to call witnesses on its own,

17 and the Defence does.

18 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: No doubt about this. But please understand that

19 we don't want to interfere in the one or other party's case, and the first

20 right to call a witness during a case is for the party. And only if we

21 know definitively that a party will not hear a witness, then it's up to us

22 to decide.

23 MR. KOUMJIAN: I can state definitively that the OTP will not be

24 calling any person who are accused as witnesses in this case.

25 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: And the same is true for persons already

Page 7050

1 convicted?

2 MR. KOUMJIAN: On this particular case, that is true. Your Honour

3 may recall we did attempt to call one person who was convicted on this

4 case earlier, and there may be circumstances --

5 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Yes. But if I recall correctly, it was another

6 municipality, wasn't it?

7 MR. OSTOJIC: Yes.

8 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: And I have persons in mind closer to this case

9 already convicted, and I'm more than surprised not to have presented these

10 persons. I don't know why, but -- I can't imagine. Anything else to

11 discuss today?

12 MR. OSTOJIC: No, Your Honour.

13 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: So we can turn to the already-waiting witness.

14 May I ask, anything changed? What about the actual protective measures

15 necessary for Witness 2?

16 MR. WAIDYARATNE: No, Your Honour, there are no protective

17 measures requested by this witness. He has testified in previous trials

18 in open session.

19 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: So we can ask the usher to bring in Mr. Jusuf

20 Arifagic.

21 MR. WAIDYARATNE: Jusuf Arifagic. Thank you.

22 [The witness entered court]

23 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Good morning, Mr. Arifagic. You can hear me in

24 a language you understand?

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

Page 7051

1 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Thank you. Could we please hear your solemn

2 declaration.

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

4 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

5 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Thank you. Please, be seated and be open to

6 answer the questions of the OTP. The floor is yours.

7 MR. WAIDYARATNE: Thank you, Your Honour.

8 WITNESS: JUSUF ARIFAGIC

9 [Witness answered through interpreter]

10 Examined by Mr. Waidyaratne:

11 Q. Mr. Arifagic, could you kindly state your date of birth.

12 A. 17th of August, 1961.

13 Q. You were born in Kozarac. Is that correct?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Your father's name is Dervis Arifagic. Is that correct?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. You have a brother and a sister?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Both of them are married?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. What was your education? Where did you have your primary

22 education?

23 A. I completed my primary education in Kozarac.

24 Q. And your secondary education, did you go to Prijedor?

25 A. Yes, I completed my secondary education at the technical school in

Page 7052

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Page 7053

1 Prijedor.

2 Q. Did you specialise in any particular field?

3 A. Yes. Upon the completion of the secondary technical school, I

4 became a machine technician.

5 Q. Now, Mr. Arifagic, before we proceed further, you said that you

6 had a brother -- you have a brother. Can I know the name of this brother,

7 please, of the brother?

8 A. My brother's name is Adem, Adem Arifagic.

9 Q. And the sister's name?

10 A. Emira Causagic. She is married.

11 Q. Thank you.

12 Q. Now, after your secondary education, did you do your compulsory

13 military service?

14 A. Yes, I did my compulsory military service.

15 Q. If I say that it was in the year 1980 and 1981, is that correct?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Where did you serve?

18 A. I did my military service in Pancevo near Belgrade, and only a

19 small part of it in Belgrade itself, in these two cities.

20 Q. That was in Serbia?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Was it a special unit, or did you have any specialised training

23 during this service?

24 A. Yes, I was a member of the infantry. My unit was a special unit.

25 It was a sabotage unit of the general headquarters of the then Yugoslav

Page 7054

1 People's Army.

2 Q. After your compulsory service, did you serve with the reserve?

3 A. No.

4 Q. Now, after your service, military service, were you engaged in any

5 kind of employment?

6 A. Yes, I was. I found employment in Croatia. I worked in a

7 Croatian company as a foreman, and I was involved in -- I worked with

8 anti-corrosive agents and anti-corrosive protection.

9 Q. Now, after you served in Croatia, you continued to work in the

10 same field, and you worked in Libya, am I correct, for almost -- for five

11 and a half years?

12 A. Yes, that is correct.

13 Q. In between this period, you used to come to Kozarac?

14 A. Yes. I went to Kozarac for holidays every four or five months.

15 Q. And you lived with the parents. And in the year 1986, you got

16 married?

17 A. Yes, that's correct.

18 Q. By that marriage, you had a child. And --

19 A. Yes, I had a daughter in this marriage.

20 Q. And you lived with the parents in the parental house at Kozarac?

21 A. Correct, yes.

22 Q. Now, Mr. Arifagic, could you explain why you returned to Kozarac

23 in 1991 and for how long you were there.

24 A. In December of 1991, I went back to Kozarac. My sole reason for

25 going back to Kozarac was my desire to start building a family house of my

Page 7055

1 own. I remained there in December 1991. And in early 1992, I started

2 working on my family house. And sometime in March, that is, prior to the

3 outbreak of the conflict, I moved into this house with my family. So that

4 was the reason why I went back and why I took a longer leave, that is, to

5 complete my house and to move in with my family.

6 Q. Now, in the period -- to be specific, in the year of 1991 and

7 1992, were you involved in politics while you were in Kozarac?

8 A. No.

9 Q. You were not a member of any political party?

10 A. No.

11 Q. Did you, if I may ask you -- you can refrain from answering, did

12 you vote in the elections, the last election which was held in Kozarac in

13 1991 and 1992 -- 1990, I'm sorry?

14 A. No.

15 Q. Now, moving to another area, speaking about Kozarac, could you

16 explain as to -- about Kozarac, which villages, what ethnicity was the

17 population that was in Kozarac?

18 A. The majority of the Kozarac population, 86, 87 per cent, were

19 Bosniak, Muslim, and the remainder of the population, 1 or 2 per cent

20 perhaps Serbs, and another smaller percentage of Croats, Catholics.

21 Q. Kozarac is an area comprised of many villages and hamlets and

22 mainly populated by Muslims. Is that correct?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. These villages, if I name some, were Kamicani, Kevljani, Babici,

25 Hrnici, is that correct?

Page 7056

1 A. Yes, that's correct.

2 Q. Mr. Arifagic, are you aware of the villages which surrounded this

3 area which you call Kozarac?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Were there Serb villages, or mainly consisting of a population of

6 Serbian nationality?

7 A. Yes. Serbs constituted the majority in these villages except for

8 one village which was predominantly Catholic.

9 Q. Can you name some of these villages that you name as -- or which

10 surrounded Kozarac?

11 A. Vidovici, Balte, Lamovita, Omarska, Jelicka, Maricka, Tomasica,

12 those would be these villages, Jaruge, Orlovci, Donji/Gornji Garevci.

13 Q. I will take your attention to another area which will be towards

14 the year 1992, the beginning of 1992. In January, you were in Kozarac?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Did you notice or observe any change that took -- that happened

17 during that time relating to the takeover in April? If I specifically

18 say, any military changes or politically changes that you observed.

19 A. What I was able to observe concerned the military situation. Up

20 until that time, this was not very usual; however, from January 1992, one

21 could observe intense movements of the military columns and vehicles of

22 the JNA. According to our information, the JNA when withdrawing from

23 Croatia stationed a number of their units in the surroundings of Prijedor

24 and Kozarac. Very often, one could see convoys of vehicles passing on the

25 road from Prijedor to Banja Luka. Some of these convoys passed through

Page 7057

1 Kozarac and to quarters near Benkovac not far from the Mrakovica

2 monument.

3 Every day one could see in the streets of Kozarac local Serbs or

4 Serbs from the surrounding villages walking around the streets with

5 weapons after they had come back from the front line near Lipik. Very

6 often in those days they carried weapons, even when they were in cafes.

7 The population of Kozarac got irritated as a result of that because they

8 were very often quite aggressive would open fire, shoot in the air, or

9 throw hand grenades. So these were the things that were not normal or

10 customary prior to that period of time in Bosnia and Herzegovina.

11 Q. Going further, did you observe the arming of people, specifically

12 the Serbs in that area?

13 A. We did. Most of the Serbs from the area were armed ever since

14 1991. According to the knowledge we had, in the 5th Kozarac Brigade, that

15 is, the Prijedor brigade, there were many of them who participated in

16 operations in Croatia. So when they came back from the theater, they kept

17 their weapons with them while they were on leave. This caused irritation

18 amongst the citizens of Kozarac. Very often during the night, one could

19 hear shooting, and this influenced the overall situation and the sense of

20 insecurity.

21 Q. The association or the contacts between the Serb population and

22 the Muslim population during this time, did you observe a change in that?

23 A. Well, this affected the way they communicated and behaved. Very

24 often, they would accuse us of being deserters and they said that it would

25 be perfectly normal for us to participate alongside them in the war of

Page 7058

1 Croatia with the aim of preserving Yugoslavia. They argued that they

2 wanted to preserve Yugoslavia, and they often referred to us Muslims as

3 Ustashas, as deserters, as betrayers of Yugoslavia.

4 Q. During this time, Mr. Arifagic, what developments or change did

5 you see in the TV and the radio, in the programmes that you watched?

6 A. Sometime in late February, I noticed that the programme which we

7 normally followed up until that period of time, that is, the Bosnian TV,

8 the Sarajevo TV - we did have opportunity to watch Croatian programmes

9 also - disappeared all of a sudden. All these programmes could no longer

10 be seen, and we could follow only broadcasts from Banja Luka and

11 Belgrade. The explanation was that the JNA had taken over the TV relay at

12 the Kozara mountain, and that allegedly everything was now under control.

13 They also said that some kind of Banja Luka SAO Krajina had been

14 established, so we could watch from then on the Banja Luka and Belgrade

15 TV. This also included the Prijedor TV and radio stations. They started

16 broadcasting programmes which were not usual until that time. All of a

17 sudden, we started listening to the songs which ten years ago would have

18 been forbidden. There would have been a ban on broadcasting such songs.

19 And there were interviews, for instance, with the leaders of the

20 SDS party. And most of these interviews boiled down to the desire to

21 preserve Yugoslavia, that there was a constitutional right for them to

22 preserve Yugoslavia, and that Muslims and Croats and Ustashas wanted to

23 destroy Yugoslavia and similar allegations were broadcast at that time.

24 Q. Mr. Arifagic, you referred to in your answer saying that there

25 were discussions by political leaders of the SDS. Do you recall any

Page 7059

1 specific -- any special person or leader from those parties -- from the

2 party of SDS who came on TV or radio?

3 A. As I have already indicated, I was not involved in politics, so I

4 didn't know most of these leaders. However, the majority of them were

5 members of the SDS leadership in Banja Luka, perhaps a small number of

6 them were in Prijedor. We knew that they were leaders of the SDS, local

7 leaders of the SDS.

8 Q. Going a step further, in February, month of February 1992, did you

9 observe helicopters moving in the area of Kozarac and the surrounding

10 villages?

11 A. Yes, during that period of time, one could observe intense

12 movements of helicopters. They flew in the airspace of the Kozara region,

13 over Kozara mountain. I remember I once was able to see a helicopter land

14 in a nearby Serb village, the village of Balte.

15 Q. Did you learn as to why these helicopters were moving around that

16 area and why it landed in Balte? Did you pursue that matter?

17 A. According to our sources, this helicopter landed in Balte with

18 cargos of weapons, that there was an arming of the local population going

19 on in this village.

20 Q. Local population means they were Serbs? Is that correct?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Now, the village of Balte was in the border of Kozarac. Is that

23 correct?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And how would you define that village? Was it a Serb majority

Page 7060

1 that lived there, or Muslims population, non-Serbs?

2 A. The village of Balte was exclusively populated by Serbs.

3 MR. WAIDYARATNE: May I be permitted to, Your Honour, use S14, the

4 map?

5 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Please do so, with the assistance of the usher.

6 I don't want to be impolite, but as we have heard a lot of these

7 issues already beforehand with the assistance of other witnesses, could

8 you please be so kind and concentrate on the core issues where we decided

9 that it would be necessary to hear this witness in addition, giving some

10 additional information, and go more concretely into details and not leave

11 it to answers such as "according to our sources" and not asking what are

12 these sources. And then the answer "local population means they were

13 Serbs" and leave it with the answer "yes." I don't think it helps very

14 much. I would ask you to go more into details. Thank you.

15 MR. WAIDYARATNE: I would do my best, Your Honour. I will follow

16 your advice. Thank you.

17 Q. Mr. Arifagic, would you kindly indicate to the Court as to the

18 place that you referred to as Balte, the village of Balte. If the

19 audiovisual person could -- you could look at the map and first point out

20 to the place where you referred to as the village of Balte. The place

21 that you are pointing out, it is in the borders of --

22 A. Yes, Balte is here.

23 Q. How far was the village of Balte from Kozarac?

24 A. The village of Balte is perhaps 1 kilometre, to 1 kilometre and a

25 half, away from my village, as the crow flies.

Page 7061

1 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Sorry to interrupt. Did we discuss the hamlet

2 of G. Balte or D. Balte?

3 MR. WAIDYARATNE: I will come to that, Your Honour. My next

4 question is that.

5 Q. Now, in the map it is indicated as G. Balte. Is it Gornji Balte?

6 MR. WAIDYARATNE: Thank you. I thank the usher.

7 A. It is true there is Gornji Balte and Donja Balte. But actually it

8 is a very small village and represents a whole. The two hamlets represent

9 the whole.

10 Q. What does Gornji and Donja Balte mean?

11 A. Gornji Balte is the upper Balte. They are situated a little bit

12 further up with respect to Kozarac, whereas Donja Balte is situated

13 towards Kamicani, in the lower area.

14 Q. Thank you. And could you also take this opportunity, and you

15 spoke about a place called Benkovac. If the map... If it could be moved?

16 A. [Indicates].

17 Q. And also could you point out the place Mrakovica.

18 A. [Indicates].

19 Q. How far was Mrakovica from Kozarac?

20 A. 12 kilometres.

21 Q. And also, taking this opportunity, could you also show the village

22 of Javori, if the map... Is that shown in that map?

23 A. I don't think it is. I cannot find the name of the village of

24 Javori here.

25 Q. Was it -- how far was it from Kozarac?

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Page 7063

1 A. From the centre of Kozarac, maybe 3 kilometres.

2 Q. Now, we were -- thank you. We were talking about the village of

3 Balte and its population, and you said that it was mainly consisting of

4 the Serb -- a Serb population there. Is that correct?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And you, in your previous answer, when you were referring to the

7 distribution of weapons or the Serbs receiving weapons, you said "our

8 resources" or - sorry - "our sources." Could you explain how you heard or

9 got to know about this, what your source was?

10 A. I think that on one occasion, even the Kozarac police received the

11 information that a helicopter had landed in the village of Balte, that

12 weapons were being brought in, and they tried to carry out an

13 investigation. However, they were prevented from doing so, and they came

14 back.

15 Q. Who told you this?

16 A. A cousin of mine who worked in the police in Kozarac. I think he

17 was a member of the patrol who went there. Later, we talked, and he told

18 me that there was an arming of the population going on from the village of

19 Balte and the surrounding villages, that they had information to that

20 effect, that they had tried to enter the village but couldn't do so, so

21 they went back.

22 Q. Now, Mr. Arifagic, you mentioned a person as a cousin of mine who

23 worked in the police. Are you able to give the name of this person?

24 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Could we go in private session, please.

25 MR. WAIDYARATNE: Thank you, Your Honour.

Page 7064

1 [Private session]

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12 [Open session]

13 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Confirmed. Please proceed.

14 MR. WAIDYARATNE: Thank you, Your Honour.

15 Q. Mr. Arifagic, now, going ahead, did you learn that these Serbs had

16 taken over the power in the municipality of Prijedor?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. If I say that it was on the 30th of April, 1992, is that correct?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Now, after the takeover on the 30th of April, what did you hear

21 and see?

22 A. The explanation we were given is that all the policemen who had up

23 to that point worked at the police station in Prijedor were disarmed and

24 told to leave their jobs, that the SDS took over power in Prijedor. And

25 they convinced all the population of Prijedor Municipality that they had

Page 7066

1 nothing to fear and that they had every reason to feel safe because now

2 everything was going to be all right. The population from the surrounding

3 villages were the predominantly Muslim and Croat population and was

4 required to sign an oath of loyalty to the SDS authorities in Prijedor.

5 Q. Now, how did you get to know -- did you hear this -- how did you

6 have this information that the non-Serbs had to sign the loyalty oath?

7 A. It was broadcast on the local radio and TV, mainly the radio,

8 every day, that the local population should sign an oath of loyalty. This

9 was also required from those policemen who had been disarmed. They said

10 if they signed the oath of loyalty to the SDS and the authorities in

11 Prijedor, they can stay and continue to work for the police.

12 Q. Did they say as to what would happen if they did not do that, what

13 would result or the consequences would be?

14 A. Well, mainly those who failed to sign the oath of loyalty were

15 supposed to turn in their weapons, no matter whether legally or illegally

16 owned. Hunting rifles, all kinds of weapons, that's what was requested.

17 And if not, then the JNA would take over control of the area. What that

18 really meant was that there would be an attack.

19 Q. Now, Mr. Arifagic, previously in answer to one of the questions,

20 you said that "the Muslim and Croat population was required to sign an

21 oath of loyalty to the SDS authorities in Prijedor." Did you know any of

22 these people from the authorities in the SDS in Prijedor?

23 A. Very few, only what was broadcast on the radio, the names of as I

24 Simo Drljaca, Radmilo Zeljaja, those people mainly. That's what I could

25 hear. The Crisis Staff in Prijedor was also referred to, Mr. Kovacevic.

Page 7067

1 Q. Did you hear any other names during those announcements, members

2 of the Crisis Staff in Prijedor?

3 A. I probably did.

4 Q. Do you recall any of those, other than the names that you have

5 mentioned?

6 A. No, not at this moment.

7 Q. Mr. Arifagic, now, what did you do? Did you abide by the request

8 or the announcements or the orders by the SDS in Prijedor? Did you want

9 to sign a loyalty oath?

10 A. No.

11 Q. Did the population, the majority in Kozarac, agree to abide by

12 what was announced by the new Serb authorities in Prijedor?

13 A. In the sense of signing an oath of loyalty, no, we were not

14 prepared to do that. We were still trying to follow the instructions from

15 the Sarajevo government, and we were in touch with people who had been

16 elected in the last elections to be local representatives of the

17 government at the local level. And we had conversations with them. They

18 wanted our opinion, and the decision by the population of Kozarac was to

19 sign no oath of loyalty. We kept emphasising that we did not want to

20 attack anyone; we just wanted to stay in our homes and live on.

21 Q. Did you believe -- what did you believe would happen if you did

22 not sign the oath?

23 A. At that moment, we had no idea what could happen. But we did have

24 some information that certain villages did, indeed, sign oaths of loyalty

25 and turn in their weapons, but that despite that, these same villages were

Page 7068

1 later attacked.

2 Q. Now, did you any local representative -- you referred to some

3 people as the local representatives from the locality of Kozarac and other

4 Muslim areas. Did any of these people speak to the authorities in

5 Prijedor, the newly established authorities in Prijedor?

6 A. Yes, they were in touch all the time. They talked -- they tried

7 to reach an agreement. They tried to convey the opinion of the citizens

8 of Kozarac, to explain the situation that they had every guarantee from us

9 in Kozarac that we would never attack anyone, that the only thing we

10 wanted was to stay in Kozarac but that we could not sign an oath of

11 loyalty to an authority that was proclaimed and supposed to be in charge

12 of our area too.

13 Q. In your answer you referred to a situation or -- you used the

14 words: "to explain the situation that they had every guarantee from us in

15 Kozarac that we would not -- never attack anyone." Now, you mean to say

16 "they" in the sense of the authorities in Prijedor?

17 A. Yes, the authorities in Prijedor. We just wanted to convey very

18 clearly our message and our guarantee that as far as the population of

19 Kozarac was concerned, not a single one of the surrounding Serb villages

20 who we still considered our neighbours would be attacked by us. But we

21 also said that we simply did not want to sign any oath of loyalty to the

22 SDS in Prijedor because we still thought that Bosnia and Herzegovina as a

23 state was in existence. And that the population living in that territory

24 should be loyal and follow the instructions by the government in Sarajevo

25 and the government of Bosnia and Herzegovina.

Page 7069

1 Q. Now, Mr. Arifagic, who are the people from the local authorities

2 or from Kozarac who were in touch with the authorities in Prijedor?

3 A. If we look at the political situation, it was Becir Medunjanin,

4 Besim Alic, people who were at the head of the SDS [sic] and who had been

5 appointed to official positions in Kozarac local commune at the last

6 elections. When talking about the Kozarac police, then it was the chief

7 of police in Kozarac -- excuse me. When talking about the police, it was

8 the commander of the Kozarac Police Station, Osme, and there was another

9 person who had left the JNA prior to that. Probably he was in

10 disagreement with their war policy and returned to Kozarac. Up to that

11 point, he had been an active officer in the JNA. His name was

12 Sead Cirkin.

13 Q. Mr. Arifagic, in your last -- the previous answer, you have -- you

14 said: "People who were at the head of the SDS and who had been appointed

15 to official positions in Kozarac local commune." Isn't it correct that it

16 should be corrected as SDA?

17 A. No, what I meant was the SDA.

18 Q. So it should be SDA?

19 A. I'm sorry, yes.

20 Q. Thank you.

21 Did you know any persons from the Prijedor authorities, in

22 Prijedor, any persons who were contacted by the Muslims or the authorities

23 in -- people from Kozarac? Who were the people from Prijedor?

24 A. I think the commander of the Kozarac Police Station only made

25 contact with the commander of the Prijedor Police Station, Simo Drljaca, I

Page 7070

1 think that was his name. But most often, contact was made with

2 Radmilo Zeljaja as far as I knew. Probably there were other contacts

3 being made with other persons, but I had no opportunity to learn anything

4 about those other contacts.

5 Q. Mr. Arifagic, before we leave this area, now, who informed you

6 about what was said by the authorities in Prijedor? Were these people

7 that you mentioned, people like Becir Medunjanin and Besim Alic?

8 A. Yes, those were the people. After every talk or meeting with the

9 SDS people and after every new information that was obtained, they tried

10 to go out and visit the people on the ground, discuss the newly arisen

11 situation. They wanted local opinion, the opinion of the people of

12 Kozarac. They wanted to know whether they were ready to accept the new

13 conditions and whether they were still not prepared to sign the oath of

14 loyalty. And they wanted to know how to proceed with talks with the

15 authorities in Prijedor, their strategy for these talks very much depended

16 on our response.

17 Q. Now, you recall that the attack on Kozarac was on the 24th of May,

18 1992?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Before that, the takeover of Prijedor, or the taking of the power

21 in Prijedor was on the 30th of April?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. So from the 30th of April and the 24th of May, did you take part

24 in any guarding or standing guard at any place?

25 A. Since the takeover in Prijedor, we tried to organise ourselves a

Page 7071

1 little -- excuse me. The population of Kozarac wanted to try to control

2 the outer border of Kozarac. We wanted to protect ourselves from any

3 incursions from outside into the Kozarac area.

4 Q. Where were you? Where did you stand guard?

5 A. I was with a group of people in the Javori, in the village of

6 Javori which had the same population. So it was at the far end of the

7 village of Javori. That was the last village before the village of Balte.

8 We stood guard duty there and tried to prevent anyone from breaking into

9 that area so that nothing unpleasant would happen.

10 Q. Were you armed?

11 A. We were mostly armed with hunting rifles. There were people who

12 tried to devise weapons of their own making. Some people had pistols.

13 But mostly, if you had a hunting rifle, then those people who were on duty

14 there tried to control the situation. And when they left, they would just

15 leave their rifle to those who came to relieve them.

16 Q. How many people stood guard there?

17 A. There were perhaps five, six, maybe ten people in my group. But

18 you must know that there were other people living in that village, people

19 who were permanently residents in that village.

20 Q. Now, moving on to the 24th of May, 1992, do you recall the attack

21 or the shelling of Kozarac?

22 A. Yes, I do. I was just there in the village of Javori. Around

23 1.00 past midnight, we heard shots. It was barage fire from automatic

24 weapons from Donja Garevci. From the village of Orlovci, fire was opened

25 on Kozarac which lasted for about five or ten minutes, and then everything

Page 7072

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Page 7073

1 was silent again.

2 Q. How many people were with you at that --

3 A. Five or six of us in that group.

4 Q. How long did the shelling or the shooting go on?

5 A. At that moment, it went on for about five or ten minutes, and then

6 there was a lull, and then it was continued in the morning.

7 Q. How long did that take, go on for?

8 A. Later, the shelling of Kozarac, the continued shelling of Kozarac

9 lasted for about 48 hours. There was constant shelling, and shells were

10 coming from a number of different sides. So I'd say about 48 hours

11 altogether.

12 Q. That means it went on until the 26th of May, 1992?

13 A. Yes, thereabouts.

14 Q. Did you see any casualties?

15 A. Where I was in that village, a shell fell, and six fellows were

16 killed by that shell. They were sitting together near the village, and a

17 shell landed just in the middle of that group, and those people were

18 killed.

19 Q. Did you know as to what was taking place in the other parts of

20 Kozarac?

21 A. I know that fire was coming from all the different directions. I

22 was informed that infantry and artillery had set out from Omarska and that

23 the civilians who tried to protect the Jakupovici and Kamicani villages,

24 those lines had been penetrated and the population was retreating towards

25 the centre of Kozarac. The same thing was happening in Kozarusa, too. So

Page 7074

1 the whole population of Kozarac and the surrounding villages was

2 retreating towards the centre of Kozarac.

3 Q. What did you do in the place you were in, from Javori?

4 A. As we had already seen that Kozarac would be taken, that it would

5 fall, a friend of mine who was a reserve police officer and myself, we

6 went to a motel near a village where the Kozarac hospital had been moved

7 to. There were lots of wounded people there. I tried to find Becir

8 Medunjanin and Sead Cirkin and see what was to be done, but then I was

9 told that the personnel there had no idea where Becir was. The Prijedor

10 authorities had told the Kozarac police to hand in their weapons so that

11 the wounded civilians would be admitted to the hospital in Prijedor.

12 Later, I returned to the village of Javori and informed the people

13 there roughly about what was happening. Then they left the village, and

14 we also retreated towards the centre of Kozarac.

15 Q. Now, on the 26th of May, 1992, late that day, did a large number

16 of the population in Kozarac surrender?

17 A. Yes, most of the population in Kozarac surrendered. They left the

18 centre. But a smaller area, the place where I lived in that area, there

19 were between five and ten thousand civilians in that area, women,

20 children, in the cellars of the houses there. The army had already

21 entered the centre of Kozarac, the place called Stari Grad in Kozarac.

22 And together with my relative, Hamdija Mrkovic [as interpreted], I

23 discussed the possibilities of what could be done. But he said that if

24 the shelling continued, probably the consequences would be that a large

25 number of civilians, women and children -- that a large number of

Page 7075

1 civilians would end up as victims, would be killed. And as he worked with

2 the police, for the police, he felt responsible and thought he was

3 supposed to do something. From where we were staying at that point, he

4 saw a Serb tank manned by Zoran Karlica, a man he used to know very well.

5 He decided to a make white flag. He sat on a motorbike and went towards

6 the tank. From what I could see, he was talking to Zoran Karlica on the

7 tank.

8 When he returned, he told me that he had received orders to take

9 his car, his wife and children, that he had to form a convoy and lead the

10 convoy, that he was supposed to lead the convoy and no one else.

11 Q. Now, Mr. Arifagic, did you know where this convoy headed towards,

12 went towards, and what happened to them?

13 A. It was explained to him that all those who wished to surrender

14 could join the convoy and that there would be a cease-fire during that

15 period. So these people followed him and surrendered. I learned that

16 they reached the main road, the Banja Luka/Prijedor main road, that the

17 women and children were separated from the men, and that the women and

18 children were then sent to the Trnopolje camp while the men were sent to

19 Keraterm and Omarska.

20 MR. WAIDYARATNE: May this be a convenient time to have a break.

21 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: The trial stays adjourned until 11.30.

22 --- Recess taken at 10.58 a.m.

23 --- On resuming at 11.36 a.m.

24 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Please be seated.

25 I have asked to start this part of the hearing in the absence of

Page 7076

1 the witness. I don't really know how come that none of the parties

2 requested this, that this witness could be introduced under 92 bis. We

3 can read on the summaries the words "92 bis" but evidently we rechecked

4 during the break, there was no application for 92 bis. Could we please

5 know why, and is there a possibility, and I would ask for this, that we

6 really concentrate on issues not yet covered exhaustively by former

7 witnesses. It does, of course, not mean that we are convinced by all that

8 what has been said in the past by other witnesses, but we have to avoid

9 too much -- too many repetitions.

10 So therefore, we should really concentrate on the absolutely

11 necessary in the future, if this is feasible for you. But please, if you

12 could indicate the reasons why we didn't get an application for this

13 witness under 92 bis, what are the core issues that we are aware of these

14 core issues we have to expect today?

15 MR. WAIDYARATNE: May I, Your Honour, as I am dealing with this

16 witness. I too, saw that he was going to become a witness under 92 bis,

17 but we did not make that application.

18 He would, as you would see under the 65 ter, would testify with

19 regard to some of the matters that I have already led, and he would be

20 testifying with regard to his experience in the Keraterm camp where it is

21 alleged in the indictment under paragraphs 46 and 47 certain massacres at

22 that took place in Keraterm. There had not been any other witnesses who

23 have testified to that effect.

24 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Yes. One can read this already from the

25 summary, but I think it's not necessary to touch upon once again the

Page 7077

1 taking over the Kozarac television broadcast tower, whether this happened

2 or not, and all the issues related to the area of Kozarac as such. And

3 therefore, I invite, if possible -- of course, I can't restrict you if you

4 believe there's something new in addition to the area as regards the area

5 of Kozarac. But please, then concentrate on the situation in the Keraterm

6 camp.

7 MR. WAIDYARATNE: I would, Your Honour. I have tried my best to

8 restrict the areas. Unwillingly sometimes the witness would speak about

9 certain -- and to have a sequence, I have been asking these questions.

10 But I will make it -- I will try my best to keep or restrict my

11 examination and only refer to the main matters that would be necessary for

12 the trial.

13 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Thank you.

14 The usher may bring in, please, the witness again.

15 The OTP may proceed, please.

16 MR. WAIDYARATNE: Thank you, Your Honour. Before I start, Your

17 Honour, I have been informed by the interpreters to caution the witness to

18 slow down a little bit while he answers. Could I do that, or Your Honour

19 may.

20 Q. Witness, could you, when you answer the questions, please speak

21 slowly and slow down possibly that the interpreters could keep up with

22 you. Thank you.

23 MR. WAIDYARATNE: May I, Your Honour? Thank you.

24 Q. Now, we were -- very quickly, we'll go through some areas before

25 we come to the arrest. You were among some of the people in Kozarac who

Page 7078

1 did not surrender or who did not want to surrender. Is that correct?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Why didn't you surrender?

4 A. I wanted to wait and see what would happen because I knew that if

5 I surrendered, that would be it. It was this feeling of uncertainty that

6 I had that made me try and stick around for a while. I still believed

7 that we would be given the opportunity of staying at our homes.

8 Q. Now, did the group that you were in -- you were in a group of

9 people from Kozarac, the villagers, that retreated to Mount Kozara. While

10 you were towards Mount Kozara, you were ambushed at a place called

11 Zeciji Kamen. Do you recall that event?

12 A. Yes, I do. We were ambushed, and in this column of people there

13 were women, children, and civilians. We tried to cross the road leading

14 to Mrakovica from Kozarac, and at the location that we call Zeciji Kamen,

15 we were shot at. According to what I know, 120 people were captured in

16 this incident. They were subsequently taken to Benkovac. Some of them

17 were immediately executed, and some were later transferred to the Omarska

18 camp. Others, women and children, continued towards Kozara Mount. We

19 made contact with Kapetan Cirkin. We found Becir Medunjanin and others.

20 We contacted them because we wanted them to tell us what should we do next

21 and what the next plan would be.

22 Q. Now, Mr. Arifagic, if we go ahead, proceed further, is it correct

23 that you were arrested on the 14th of June, 1992, at Mujkanovici?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And until the 14th of June, 1992, until your arrest, you were in

Page 7079

1 the forest?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Were you armed, or did you -- what did you do with your -- did you

4 have a weapon with you?

5 A. We had hunting weapons which we kept for a while.

6 Q. Did you get rid of the weapon?

7 A. Yes. I discarded my weapon because I decided to cross the

8 Prijedor/Banja Luka Road at one point and went to the village of

9 Mujkanovici. The reason I did that was because I had already received

10 information that my wife, my daughter, my mother, my father, and my

11 brother were already in the Trnopolje camp.

12 Q. Now during this time, did you see any Serb soldiers in the village

13 of Kozarac or the surrounding villages?

14 A. I was able to see Serb soldiers to loot systematically the Kozarac

15 town and the surrounding villages on a daily basis. Anything that was of

16 any value was taken away, driven away on tractors and other vehicles,

17 household appliances were looted. Some of the machines were left in

18 place, the things they couldn't take with them. Those were subsequently

19 destroyed. So the town of Kozarac and the surrounding villages were

20 systematically looted and set on fire.

21 Q. Now, going to the date of the 14th of June, 1992, could you very

22 briefly explain as to what happened at Mujkanovici?

23 A. I went to the village of Mujkanovici because my mother's sister

24 lived there. The village is situated in the vicinity of the Trnopolje

25 camp, and I wanted to meet with my mother there. However, on that day, in

Page 7080

1 the village of Mujkanovici and the surrounding villages, the so-called

2 cleansing occurred. That's how the Serbs called them. These villages

3 were encircled and men were systematically taken away from their homes.

4 The women and children were given opportunity to remain and continue

5 living there in their homes alone without men.

6 Q. Now, when you were arrested, were you arrested by Serb soldiers?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. How many people were there with you ultimately when you were taken

9 away from the village?

10 A. Approximately 40 people in a group.

11 Q. Now, proceeding further, without going into details with regard to

12 what happened during that time, is it correct that from there onwards this

13 group of people that was taken away from the village of Mujkanovici

14 ordered to march towards Kamicani?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. On your way, you all were beaten, you all were asked to sing

17 songs, Serbian songs, by the Serb soldiers?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. And ultimately, you were loaded or you were asked -- ordered to

20 board a bus. Is that correct?

21 A. Yes. It happened in the village of Kamicani at a checkpoint where

22 we were stopped. On that occasion, we were harassed and beaten. And me

23 and a young man who was standing at the head of the column were taken

24 away. From what we could hear from the soldiers who were taking us, we

25 thought we would be executed. They said that now you will see how people

Page 7081

1 are executed. But we were taken to a house, a nearby house, where we were

2 ordered to load some household appliances -- unload some household

3 appliances from a truck.

4 Later we heard that a bus had arrived, and apparently the two of

5 us were to be taken back. They made us run. They told us that those, the

6 one who is the last would be beaten up. I was the last one, and I got

7 beaten up, but I managed to get on to the bus which continued on its way

8 to Omarska.

9 Q. Now, the bus that you talk about, did you recognise these buses,

10 or did you know as to where they came from?

11 A. The bus belonged to the Autotransport company from Prijedor.

12 Q. Did you see any sign written on the bus?

13 A. Yes, there was a sign on the bus, on the sides of the bus

14 "Autotransport Company." I'm familiar with this bus because I used to

15 take it when I went to secondary school to Prijedor.

16 Q. Mr. Arifagic, to proceed further skipping some area, you were

17 taken in the buses to -- first to Omarska camp. Am I correct?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. And from there, you all proceeded again, the bus went towards a

20 place called the Keraterm ceramic factory. Is that correct?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Now, going into details at the camp, could you describe what you

23 refer to as the Keraterm ceramic factory, its location.

24 A. It is located at the outskirts of Prijedor going from the

25 direction of Kozarac, near Cirkin Polje on the right side of the main

Page 7082

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Page 7083

1 road. Keraterm is a ceramic tiles factory. It produced and distributed

2 ceramic tiles.

3 Q. Now, talking about the location, is it correct if I say that this

4 was a location on the Prijedor/Banja Luka main road?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Could anyone passing on this main road, the Prijedor/Banja Luka

7 Road, see any persons who were in the vicinity of the camp?

8 A. Yes, very clearly.

9 Q. When you were detained in the camp, did you see movement on the

10 Prijedor/Banja Luka Road, people going in vehicles?

11 A. Yes, we would see them very often, in particular on those

12 occasions when we were taken out to get some food, of which we received

13 always very little. But it was at that time that we were able to see the

14 road. In those days, there was very often fighting in the area of

15 Derventa, and every time a column of vehicles would pass along the road

16 coming from the direction of Banja Luka going towards Prijedor, we were

17 able to see them. We were there. We could see them pass by. We could

18 hear the soldiers singing songs and motioning with this traditional Serb

19 salute.

20 Q. Could you, in your estimate, say as to how far this Keraterm camp

21 was from Prijedor the town?

22 A. Taking into account the location of the town hall, the centre of

23 the Prijedor town, the police station, not more than 2, 2 and a half

24 kilometres, in my estimate.

25 Q. Mr. Arifagic, when you were brought to the camp on the 14th of

Page 7084

1 June, 1992, when the buses stopped, were you ordered to get out of the

2 bus?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. And what did they ask you to do?

5 A. Two Serb soldiers entered the bus, one on the front entrance and

6 the other at the back entrance, and they told us to leave the bus in

7 groups of five or six people. We were made to raise our hands, and we

8 were searched at that moment. Then we were ordered to lie down on the

9 concrete surface and to place our hands at the backs of our heads. The

10 people who were escorting us -- well, we couldn't see them because we were

11 lying down. But we surely did feel their blows and kicks. What I

12 remember very well is soldiers jumping on our backs, going from one to

13 another.

14 Q. After that, were you ordered to go to any other location or any

15 room in the camp?

16 A. My group was ordered to get up and to run to Room Number 2. They

17 indicated to us where it was.

18 MR. WAIDYARATNE: May I, Your Honour, at this stage request your

19 permission to use an exhibit which has been already marked and admitted,

20 Exhibit Number S15-1.

21 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Please do so.

22 MR. WAIDYARATNE: And also S15-33 to be given to the witness. If

23 that could be put on the ELMO, S15-1. Thank you.

24 Q. Do you recognise this -- what is depicted in this photograph?

25 A. Yes.

Page 7085

1 Q. Is this the place that you referred to as Keraterm camp?

2 A. Yes, it is.

3 Q. Could you kindly point out to the place that you referred to as --

4 if I may ask you to use S15-33. That would be very much appropriate.

5 MR. WAIDYARATNE: Thank you, Your Honour. The witness is shown

6 S15-33.

7 Q. Could you point out to the place that you referred to as Room 2.

8 A. [Indicates].

9 Q. Did you, in the time that you spent at the camp, get to know there

10 were other rooms that were also called by numbers? If I may use, call it

11 Room 1, did you know that there was a place which was called Room 1 in the

12 camp, and could you kindly point it out?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. You can use a pen or just your finger if it's difficult with the

15 pointer.

16 A. [Indicates].

17 MR. WAIDYARATNE: Thank you. Witness points out to the extreme

18 glass area as Room 1, and then the adjoining portion as Room 2.

19 Q. Then, Witness, did you get to know that there was a place also

20 called as Room 3?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Before you came to Room 3, there was an entrance to the toilet.

23 Is that correct?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. So noting that place, the entrance to the toilet, could you kindly

Page 7086

1 point out to the place, the door, of Room 3, please.

2 A. [Indicates].

3 MR. WAIDYARATNE: Witness indicated --

4 Q. It looks as if it's a metal door. Am I correct?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Thank you.

7 MR. WAIDYARATNE: Thank you, usher.

8 Q. Now, you were asked to go to Room 2. And when you went into the

9 room which is called Room 2, did you see any other persons who were there

10 at that time?

11 A. Yes, people had been put up there.

12 Q. When you say "people," did you get to know who these people were

13 and what they were doing there?

14 A. People were there who had been brought there in the same way they

15 were detained in the camp, mostly people from the surrounding villages of

16 Prijedor. A small number of people from Kozarac, and then from Puharska,

17 Gornji and Donji, from Prijedor town centre, from villages like

18 Rizvanovici, Hambarine, Gomjenica, mostly. Villages near Prijedor

19 Municipality mostly populated by Muslims and Croats.

20 Q. Mr. Arifagic, now you said that you were asked to go to Room 2.

21 Did the others who came with you, the group of almost 40 people, were also

22 sent to the same room?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. What would your approximate estimate be of the people all together

25 in the Room 2 at that time?

Page 7087

1 A. At that time, perhaps 200, 250, 300 people. I didn't exactly keep

2 count, but the room was full.

3 Q. And how big was this Room 2, very briefly, if you could explain.

4 A. It was an irregular square, perhaps 30 by 20 metres on the inside.

5 Q. When you were inside the Room 2, could you see outside? Could you

6 see what was happening outside while you were in Room 2?

7 A. Yes. Everything happening at the gate, at the checkpoint, on the

8 way in, the same things were happening outside Room 1, Room 2, and the

9 other rooms. You could see a part of what was happening.

10 Q. Mr. Arifagic, very quickly, could you explain as to what happened

11 in the night. Were you called out that night with a group of people that

12 came with you and what were you ordered to do?

13 A. Sometime in the evening, that means earlier, it was night, and

14 then all the people who came in the last bus, that was us. We were called

15 outside. And once outside, we were ordered outside Rooms 1 and 2 to lie

16 down on the floor, on the asphalt floor, and put our hands behind our

17 head. Then there were beatings and maltreatments, and I was asked to

18 admit, to confess that I was a Green Beret. They beat me. My head, my

19 arms, and my knew were injured.

20 They beat me in order to confess that I was a Green Beret. I

21 tried to put up with the pain, but at some point, I'm not sure why, I told

22 them if I have a green beret I wouldn't be in the camp right now. I would

23 be out in the woods. And then the man who was beating me ordered me to go

24 to the bedroom. And then at the door I was stopped again and I was asked

25 to explain, that is, they asked me about a man who owned a cafe in Kozarac

Page 7088

1 by his name. I couldn't remember the cafe, but after they explained

2 everything to me, I remembered and I told them I knew the man but that I

3 didn't know where he was.

4 And at the same time, just outside Room Number 2, one of the

5 people who arrived there with me Adnan Kljucanin was being beaten. He was

6 lying on the floor. I was standing perhaps a metre away from him. They

7 were hitting him on the kidneys mostly, and they wanted him, too, to

8 confess, that he was a Green Beret. Later, they asked me whether I knew

9 him. I said I did and that as far as I knew, he was not a member of any

10 army or anything. And then at that point, I was ordered to go in.

11 Q. Now, Mr. Arifagic, did you sustain or suffer any permanent

12 injuries by this beating?

13 A. Yes, my head was injured. I was bleeding profusely. My left arm

14 was swollen three or four fingers. It was just a mass of blood. I didn't

15 know what had happened really. I had an injury on my knee also. That

16 wound, too, was bleeding. And during the night, it was hot. The pain was

17 unbearable. And then when the injuries got cold the next day, the pain,

18 again, was great. But then the camp inmates advised me that I should

19 apply some cold water on to my wounds. They told me that would ease my

20 pain. I tried that, but it didn't help very much.

21 Q. Next morning, you were taken to hospital with some other

22 detainees. Is that correct?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. You were taken in a van driven by a person whom you knew before.

25 Is that correct?

Page 7089

1 A. Yes. We were taken away in some sort of a van or a minibus. The

2 man who was driving, I didn't know his name but I know that he had worked

3 as a conductor for Autotransport. On the passenger seat there was

4 Zoran Zigic holding an automatic rifle, and we were seated in the back.

5 Q. Did you make out or know any other detainees who were in the bus

6 with you who went to the hospital that day?

7 A. Emsud Bahonjic who had arrived in the camp earlier, and he had

8 many injuries. He was in a critical state. I think there was

9 Jasmin Colic there and other people whose names I can't remember also.

10 But these were people who were all severely injured.

11 Q. You said that there was a person by the name of Emsud Bahonjic and

12 he had many injuries. Do you know as to how he was injured?

13 A. Later, when we were returned from the hospital to the camp, I

14 talked to Emsud. We knew each other quite well from before. And he told

15 me that at the entrance gate to the camp when passing the cabin that was

16 on the way in, Zigic came up to him, tapped him on the shoulder, told him

17 that he was his sniper, that he knew he had had a sniper and that he was a

18 sniper. And then he said that Zoran Zigic and Dusan Knezevic, Dusa,

19 systematically took him out for beatings and in the end forced him to sign

20 a statement in which he confessed to having been a sniper, a sharp

21 shooter. And then they told him afterwards that he would not be

22 maltreated any more. But they only used these signed statements to

23 continue torturing him.

24 Q. Did you know whether Emsud survived the camp or what happened to

25 him?

Page 7090

1 A. Emsud did not survive. After a couple of days, one afternoon,

2 Emsud died. And we carried his body out towards the guards' cabin. We

3 laid him down there and at night, when we went outside the bedrooms to get

4 some water and to go to the toilet, we saw that his body had been laid in

5 a place we used to refer to as the garbage dump. There was only a roof

6 there on concrete pillars. That was a place to deposit construction

7 material and other sorts of waste. We saw that his body had been

8 abandoned there.

9 Q. Now, at the hospital, were you treated? Were you given any

10 medicine?

11 A. No. All I got was I met a nurse who knew my sister-in-law and

12 some other relatives of mine. She asked questions about her. This is

13 Hamdija Arifagic's wife I'm talking about. She tried to obtain

14 information about them, but could not. And then she told me that she

15 would try to help me. What she could do is she gave me some sort of a

16 gauze, a bandage. I put it over my head, and then she gave me another

17 bandage for my arm. She told me to rinse it in cold water and that she

18 would help me to dress the wound, but there was not much more she could

19 do. And she did the same with my leg. And then after that, I returned.

20 Q. Now, Mr. Arifagic, while your stayed in the camp, in Keraterm, did

21 you observe beatings?

22 A. Yes, people were beaten, especially at night. Names were called

23 out, and they were called to come out of their buildings, and then you

24 could hear cries and moans, people weeping. Some of those people never

25 returned, but those who did return were usually in a very bad shape with

Page 7091

1 their arms or legs broken, with bruises.

2 Q. Did you see dead bodies in the camp and they being removed?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Where did you see these dead bodies?

5 A. Most of these bodies I saw after the massacre the first night in

6 Room Number 3.

7 Q. Mr. Arifagic, I would come to that in a little while. Other than

8 the Room 3 incident that we would speak about, did you see any other

9 bodies in the camp?

10 A. Yes. Those were people who after being taken out at night and

11 killed, their bodies were usually dumped in the place we used to refer to

12 as the garbage dump. One night, Fikret Avdic was beaten. The man who was

13 in charge of the bedroom and who was in charge of contact with the guards,

14 he brought him in. But after 20 minutes, Fikret died. In the morning,

15 his body was taken out of the room and dumped in that same place.

16 Q. Mr. Arifagic, very quickly, could you say as to who were the

17 people who were responsible for these beatings? Did you know any of them

18 by names?

19 A. For us, those people were guard shift leaders and the guards

20 there. We didn't see anything else nor could we obtain any further

21 information. It all depended on who was standing guard, who was on the

22 shift.

23 Q. Do you recall -- before we leave this area, do you recall two

24 policemen who were former policemen being brought to the camp in uniform

25 as detainees?

Page 7092

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Page 7093

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Did you know the names of these two people, persons?

3 A. One of them was Drago, and the other I think was Fikret.

4 Q. Did you know them before the war?

5 A. Yes, I knew them by sight.

6 Q. The person whom you refer to as Fikret, is it correct if I say he

7 was Esad?

8 A. That's possible. I think his name was Fikret, but I'd only seen

9 him several times.

10 Q. Could you explain very quickly and briefly what happened to them

11 when they were brought to the camp?

12 A. They were brought there wearing police uniforms, the uniforms that

13 the Serbian police was using at that time. They had military boots on

14 their feet. And what they told us is that they had signed the oath of

15 loyalty required right away, on the first day, to the authorities in

16 Prijedor, the people who were in power then. And that after that day,

17 they had been working. But on that day, they told us they were disarmed

18 and brought to the Keraterm camp.

19 Q. And what happened to them thereafter?

20 A. That night, their names were called out. They were taken out of

21 the room. They were the only two people called out. They were outside,

22 and we could hear clearly that they were being beaten. You could hear

23 their cries. Fikret or whatever you think his name was came back alive,

24 but Drago didn't. What happened to him, I can only assume that perhaps he

25 was killed. But Fikret told us the next morning that Drago had, in fact,

Page 7094

1 been killed, that they beat them both with chains and with metal rods.

2 They made them walk on all fours around the building. Drago succumbed to

3 the beatings, and Fikret, I'm not sure how he made it but...

4 Q. Now, Mr. Arifagic, did you see your father being brought to the

5 camp on the 1st or 2nd of July, 1992?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Did you see him being beaten?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. [Previous translation continues]... And who beat him?

10 A. He was 62 at that time. In my statement, I said that he was in

11 the Trnopolje camp. As he was 62 years old, he managed to obtain from the

12 Serbian Red Cross and the people who ran the camp a certificate allowing

13 him to take my mother, his wife, and to look for accommodation in Durajci

14 at my grandfather's house. It's one of the villages nearby. That's the

15 village my mother came from.

16 On the 21st of July, that was the last village to be cleansed, the

17 Serbian army came and he was arrested alongside with the other male

18 villagers. He was taken towards the Trnopolje camp. He was beaten and

19 tortured there, and then from Trnopolje, they were transferred in buses to

20 the Keraterm camp.

21 He told me that at the entrance gate to the Keraterm camp, two

22 Serb soldiers boarded the bus and asked him to come out. One of them made

23 him leave the bus and the other was trying to get him back on the bus.

24 And all the while they were systematically beating him. One of them

25 accusing him of having killed his grandfather Radovan on Mount Kozara in

Page 7095

1 1942. However in 1942, my father was only 12 years old, so it's difficult

2 to see how this could have happened.

3 I found him in Room 3. His nose had been broken. I told him to

4 come to Room Number 2 where I was staying but he was scared. He said they

5 would kill me if I go. And then I told him: "You'll be killed anyway.

6 The only chance you still have is to come to the room where I am staying."

7 As he was a sick man and he was having stomach trouble, I thought that if

8 he comes to my room, I can try to see to his wounds, to dress his wounds,

9 and that maybe he would stand the chance of living a day longer perhaps.

10 Q. Later on, he was transferred to Trnopolje again. Am I correct?

11 A. Yes, he was taken away around the 15th of June, the 15th of July

12 from Keraterm. We didn't know where he was being taken to. But I later

13 found out that he was brought to Trnopolje. One thing perhaps I should

14 point out, if I may, the certificate he got from the Serb authorities he

15 showed the soldiers that he had been released. But they told him that he

16 could stick it up somewhere, so due to his being naive, he ended up back

17 inside the camp for a second time.

18 Q. Mr. Arifagic, I will take your attention to the 20th or 21st of

19 July, 1992. Do you recall the prisoners who were there already in Room

20 Number 3 being asked to go to other rooms or Room 3 being cleared during

21 that time?

22 A. Yes. We had orders to make room, that some of the people from

23 Room Number 3 were to be transferred to our room, and we did so. It was

24 difficult to see where exactly they would put these people, but they were

25 just simply crammed into the room, into the Rooms 2 and 4.

Page 7096

1 Q. After this, did you observe people being brought in buses to the

2 camp?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Could you explain what you noticed or observed.

5 A. People were being brought in buses past the checkpoint on the way

6 in. Something was being written down there, and their documents were

7 being checked. Anyway, these people were put in Room Number 3.

8 Q. Did you get to know from where these people came from?

9 A. Yes, the night when the room was filled, when we couldn't go

10 out -- when we went out of the room, I met some people I knew. And those

11 were mostly people from the area we referred to as Brdo. It's a group of

12 four or five villages across the Sana River just above Prijedor. We

13 called the area Brdo because it's on some sort of an elevation above

14 Prijedor.

15 Q. Did you see the people who were brought there being searched? You

16 said that you saw them being checked and their documents being looked

17 into. Did you get to know as to what they did with these documents?

18 A. I don't know what was done, but I knew that their documents were

19 taken away.

20 Q. From the prisoners or the detainees who were brought in buses?

21 A. Those who came on the buses, and some of the prisoners, too, who

22 were later brought in lorries.

23 Q. Now, these people who were brought in that day were sent to Room

24 3. Were they allowed to come out and contact the other people in the camp

25 that day?

Page 7097

1 A. Yes, on that day, they were. I met some people I knew. I talked

2 to these people. I know that those were people from that particular area.

3 Q. Were they allowed to come out of the Room 3 thereafter?

4 A. No. Later they weren't.

5 Q. Were you allowed to go out, the people in Room 2 and Room 1 and

6 Room 4?

7 A. A day or two later after they had been brought in, we did go out

8 occasionally, but those from Room Number 3 didn't.

9 Q. And on a particular -- couple of days after these people were

10 brought in from the Brdo area, were you all ordered to go to the room

11 early and were locked in thereafter?

12 A. Yes, just before nightfall, we were told to go into the bedroom,

13 to stay calm, to face the wall. There was a grid that was closed all the

14 time on Bedroom Number 2. Only some air could get into the room, but on

15 the other side there was a metal door that could be shut.

16 Q. Did you hear any movement, particularly late in the evening that

17 day?

18 A. Yes. During that night, around 9.00 or 10.00, you could hear the

19 sound of vehicles coming, lorries. There was a lot of commotion. We

20 could hear the army enter the camp, and then you could hear voices

21 yelling. People were trying to agree on something apparently, but we just

22 stayed calm in the bedroom.

23 Q. Did you hear shooting after some time? Could you explain what you

24 heard?

25 A. What I heard and the rest of us around 11.00 perhaps, or later, I

Page 7098

1 couldn't tell you what time it was exactly. But suddenly, there was a

2 burst of gunfire, not only from light weapons, automatic rifles. So

3 probably those were heavy weapons being used. We could hear sounds of

4 metal breaking, glass shattered. You could hear bullets flying in through

5 the roof. And at one point we heard a voice saying, Don't touch bedroom

6 number 1 and 2. But then we heard cries and moans. It was a turmoil. We

7 heard terrible cries. We could hear sounds of things breaking, being

8 shattered. People were calling each other and asking for help. But we,

9 on the other side, we just kept calm all the time. We were afraid even to

10 breathe too loud.

11 Q. How long did the shooting last?

12 A. The shooting lasted for about half an hour, an hour, perhaps that

13 long.

14 Q. What did you observe the next morning?

15 A. The next morning, when the doors to our room opened, we saw guards

16 who were looking for volunteers. They said explicitly that they were

17 looking for volunteers that were not afraid of the dead. I think that two

18 men went from my room; they were asked to go to Room Number 3. We could

19 see from our room, because the doors were open at the time, that a large

20 number of bodies were outside Room Number 3, that the whole area was

21 covered in blood.

22 The people who worked inside, we could see them. A very long

23 trailer truck arrived, a 20 or 30-metre long trailer truck, and the bodies

24 were loaded on to this truck. So we were able to observe all this, and we

25 thought that perhaps our turn would come the next day. When this work was

Page 7099

1 over, and when the truck left as it was moving out from the compound of

2 the camp -- I mean, we could see directly the checkpoint from our room,

3 something that keeps haunting me to this day. Something that I often try

4 hard to forget, but I've realised that this is something that I will have

5 to live with. It was the sight of a truck moving away and leaving traces

6 of blood behind. There was blood dripping from the truck, and we could

7 see that it was heavily loaded.

8 After the truck left, a fire engine arrived; that is, a vehicle

9 which had all kinds of cleaning and washing devices attached to it. They

10 tried to wash the area with this vehicle. They tried to remove the blood

11 and to wash off the blood of this area.

12 Q. Mr. Arifagic, were you able to talk to someone, a detainee, who

13 helped in the removal of the dead, the dead bodies, and did he say

14 approximately as to how many bodies were loaded that day?

15 A. I talked to a man whom I knew very well. His name was

16 Jasim Causevic. He was the brother of my brother-in-law, so we knew each

17 other very well. He was one of the volunteers who volunteered to load the

18 dead because those people used to be his neighbours. He told me that

19 there were four rows of bodies piled on top of one another. Whether we

20 are talking about hundreds of bodies, I don't know. I don't know whether

21 those were just parts of bodies or the whole bodies. I'm not sure, but

22 this is what he told me.

23 Q. Mr. Arifagic, after the area was cleaned, the same night, the

24 night the area was cleaned, did you hear again another shooting that took

25 place?

Page 7100

1 A. Yes. The next night at approximately the same time, the same

2 thing happened again. But unlike the previous night, it didn't last that

3 long. However, at one point, we heard a voice shouting out: "What are we

4 going to do? There are survivors here." And then we heard individual

5 shots, and I started counting the shots. I thought that those were the

6 shots to finish off the survivors. I tried to count them. There were

7 perhaps 42 or 43 shots that I could count, but I'm not sure. After that,

8 everything became quiet again.

9 Q. Did you see the dead being taken away?

10 A. Yes. The same thing happened the next morning, except that the

11 next morning a smaller truck arrived; it was a Zastava 640. The bodies

12 were, again, loaded on to this truck. And then after that, they wanted

13 the people from Rooms 1, 2, and 4 who had wounds to come out. Many of us

14 were wounded. We had various kinds of injuries, cuts, and bruises. So

15 these people came out, and they were also -- they also boarded this

16 truck. And when this was over, even the people, the six people who had

17 collected the bodies, were loaded on to this truck.

18 I saw Jasim Causevic leaving on this truck. He was the last one

19 on the right side. He was sitting on the truck, and he still had this

20 uniform, his official uniform that he had as an employee of this factory

21 where he worked in Prijedor. And they were all taken away.

22 Q. Mr. Arifagic, when you were allowed to go after the first

23 shooting, the Room 3 massacre that took place on the first night -- when

24 you went out, did you see in the area, other than the machine-gun which

25 was permanently there, an additional machine-gun which was brought to the

Page 7101

1 camp?

2 A. Yes, I did. Outside Room 3, there was a path, a road, leading

3 away from the factory. And at the distance of some 20 or 30 metres, there

4 was a table, an ordinary table. And there was a chair behind it. There

5 was a huge floodlight on the right-hand side which can provide very strong

6 light. And the heavy machine-gun was there. It was an 84 millimetre

7 machine-gun which was facing Room Number 3, pointing at Room Number 3.

8 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: May I just interrupt for a better

9 understanding.

10 Witness, you told us after this incident, this first incident and

11 all the bodies were removed by this huge lorry, the same happened the next

12 day. Does this mean that Room Number 3 was refilled, or the victims were

13 such from other rooms of this camp?

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. The people in question were the

15 survivors of the massacre that occurred on the first night in Room 3. So

16 the same happened again on the next day, but I'm talking about the group

17 of people who had survived the first night.

18 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: So we have first the group you could only give

19 us an estimate of the number. Then there were survivors. And then you

20 heard, just to be -- just for clarification, then you heard a voice

21 saying: "There are still survivors." And then you heard individual

22 shooting. So there was another group of individual survivors, all from

23 Room Number 3.

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Let me try to explain. After the

25 first night, the killing or the shooting at Room 3 occurred again the next

Page 7102

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Page 7103

1 night. The one who said those words, that there were still survivors

2 left, was probably referring to the people who had been wounded, the

3 people who were lying there but were not dead. So the next night, other

4 people were killed, and these other people were again loaded on to the

5 smaller truck, together with the people who had collected the bodies and

6 the people who were detained in other rooms and were wounded, and were

7 taken away together with them. After the second night, there was a small

8 group of people still in Room 3 who had survived both nights.

9 So Room Number 3 was full at the beginning. During the first

10 night, a number of people were killed. Then the second night, additional

11 number of people were killed. And then a smaller group of people

12 remained.

13 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Thank you for this clarification.

14 Please proceed.

15 MR. WAIDYARATNE: Thank you.

16 Q. Mr. Arifagic, the person whom you referred to as Jasim Causevic,

17 did you see thereafter, after you saw him last leaving in that truck after

18 the second night?

19 A. No, I did not. His name is Jasim Causevic.

20 Q. Thank you.

21 Now, you spoke about the shootings that took place in Room 3. Did

22 you know a person by the name of Simo Drljaca?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Did you know him before the conflict?

25 A. Yes, I knew him by sight.

Page 7104

1 Q. Did you know what position he held after the takeover in Prijedor?

2 A. He was a commander with the SUP.

3 Q. Did you see him in the Keraterm camp?

4 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: "He was the commander

5 of the SUP."

6 MR. WAIDYARATNE: Thank you.

7 Q. Did you see him in the Keraterm camp after the shooting?

8 A. Yes, I did.

9 Q. Where did you see him, and when was it?

10 A. I think it was either the next day or two or three days later. At

11 any rate, he was at the Keraterm camp. He was standing outside Room

12 Number 1, to the right side of Room Number 1, with a group of people. I

13 remember we were given an opportunity to get out at that moment, and those

14 who were closer to the guards were able to approach him. And apparently,

15 we received promises -- we received assurances from Drljaca. He said

16 something to the effect that this should not have happened, that better

17 control would be soon in place, and that we had his assurances that we

18 would not be harmed again.

19 Q. Who were the others who were with him? Did you recognise any of

20 those people?

21 A. Most of them were guards at the camp, but there were other

22 individuals with him. I remember a man who did not have -- who had only

23 one hand. I don't remember whether it was the left one or the right one,

24 but I remember that he was there. And another one who was a physician.

25 Q. When you say a physician, you mean to say is he a doctor from the

Page 7105

1 Prijedor hospital?

2 A. It's possible that he worked in Prijedor. I think he was a

3 doctor.

4 Q. When did you leave Keraterm, the camp Keraterm?

5 A. We left Keraterm around the 1st of August.

6 Q. Where were you taken to?

7 A. We were taken to the Trnopolje camp.

8 Q. Were you taken in buses with others who were in Keraterm?

9 A. Yes. Me and a number of other detainees were taken to the

10 Trnopolje camp. However, before that, some hundred or hundred and thirty

11 people were told to get their belongings and to come out. These people

12 were loaded on to two or three buses. They were escorted by the guards

13 who immediately started beating them. They said that the buses would pass

14 by the sleeping rooms and that people should board the bus as it

15 approaches their room. And that is how a convoy was formed at the exit of

16 the Keraterm camp. We were transported to Trnopolje via Cirkin Polje and

17 Gornji and Donji Garevci. And we eventually reached the Trnopolje camp.

18 Q. Mr. Arafagic, in your opinion, who was in charge of the Trnopolje

19 camp?

20 A. Slobodan Kuruzovic. It's not only my opinion. Everybody knew

21 that he was the one who was calling the shots there.

22 Q. Did you know him before?

23 A. I may have by sight, but I'm not sure.

24 Q. How long were you kept in Trnopolje?

25 A. Until the 1st of October the same year.

Page 7106

1 Q. When you had to leave the camp on the 1st of October, were you

2 asked to do anything to leave the camp? Were you asked to sign any

3 documents?

4 A. Well, if we wanted to be registered with the International Red

5 Cross and leave the camp, we were asked to fill in some forms. We had to

6 submit a request for departure to the appropriate authorities in Prijedor,

7 which is what we all did. I think I still have this decision written in

8 Cyrillic script whereby pursuant to my request for leaving the territory

9 of -- the territory of Prijedor Municipality, this departure was

10 authorised, and also that I thereby relinquished all my property to the

11 authorities in Prijedor. Anyway, this is what we all signed, and it was

12 only after that that we were allowed to leave the camp by bus.

13 Q. Thank you.

14 MR. WAIDYARATNE: That concludes the examination-in-chief. Thank

15 you, Your Honour.

16 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: May I ask you for our better understanding to

17 introduce the sketch drawn by the witness, the 23rd of October, 1994. And

18 that with the assistance of this sketch where we only can find the B/C/S

19 declaration of the rooms and other facilities, what is the meaning and the

20 situation of the rooms in this area. Could this please be presented on

21 the ELMO.

22 MR. WAIDYARATNE: May I, Your Honour, is it with the number

23 02015259, that's the English version; and in B/C/S, 0174439? Is it a

24 sketch with regard to the Keraterm camp?

25 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Yes.

Page 7107

1 MR. WAIDYARATNE: Thank you. If this is shown to the witness, may

2 I ask a couple of questions, Your Honour.

3 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: I don't know whether others in this room are in

4 a better position than me, but I have first of all the B/C/S, and then,

5 yes, some English translation, put it this way, ending with number 259. If

6 you just could go briefly through this sketch.

7 MR. WAIDYARATNE: May I? Thank you, Your Honour.

8 Q. Do you recognise this sketch? Was it drawn by you?

9 A. Yes, it was.

10 Q. I'm referring to the sketch which was the number 00174439. Now,

11 could you kindly show which room you refer to as Room Number 1, point out

12 what you refer to as Room Number 1.

13 A. [Indicates].

14 Q. Room Number 2.

15 A. [Indicates].

16 Q. Now, Witness, do you see Room 3 and the place that you have marked

17 as WC?

18 A. [Indicates].

19 Q. Do you see --

20 A. Yes, I do.

21 Q. Is there any correction that you need to do?

22 A. These two locations have been confused. The toilet is actually

23 behind, but they are next to each other. This is probably a mistake in

24 drawing.

25 Q. What you -- if I get you correctly, the toilet must be before Room

Page 7108

1 Number 3? You get the toilet, and then after that the Room Number 3. Is

2 that correct?

3 A. Yes. You have to swap these two locations.

4 Q. And then next to the Room Number 3, you have the place that you

5 refer to as Room Number 4.

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. If I may ask you, there were machine-gun nests, what you referred

8 to as machine-gun nests. Could you point out to those places? I'm not

9 talking about the additional machine-gun which you referred to in your

10 testimony, but the permanently -- where two machine-guns were placed.

11 Could you kindly point out to those places, please.

12 A. One was here. Outside Room Number 3 looking from the right-hand

13 side. There was a small hut here for the guards to protect them from

14 rain, I think. And the other one was here at this corner.

15 Q. If I correct the first portion of your answer, the first

16 machine-gun area that you showed was not in front of Room Number 3; it was

17 in front of Room Number 1, which is towards the Banja Luka/Prijedor Road.

18 Am I correct?

19 A. Yes, it was always there. And then the second one which was also

20 permanent is this one, where the machine-gun nest was.

21 Q. That was in front of Room Number 3.

22 A. This permanent location was in front of the toilet, outside the

23 toilet on the left side.

24 Q. And you spoke about an additional machine-gun which has been

25 placed on a table and a search light. Is it also marked on the map?

Page 7109

1 A. Yes, it is.

2 Q. Which is where it says "machine-gun and a spotlight used for

3 massacre in Room 3." Correct?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Thank you.

6 MR. WAIDYARATNE: Does that satisfy Your Honour? Thank you. That

7 concludes the examination-in-chief.

8 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: You tender this as evidence?

9 MR. WAIDYARATNE: I may. I did not want to because as there was

10 an error with regard to Room 3 and the toilet. Now it has been -- as it

11 has been rectified, may I have the next number.

12 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: This would be S277. Objections?

13 MR. LUKIC: No objections, Your Honour.

14 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Admitted into evidence as S277A and B

15 correspondingly.

16 MR. WAIDYARATNE: I thank Your Honour.

17 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: The trial stays adjourned until 2.30.

18 --- Luncheon recess taken at 12.58 p.m.

19 --- On resuming at 2.35 p.m.

20 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Please be seated.

21 Before I give the floor to the Defence, may the usher please, once

22 again, present Document Exhibit Number S277 on the ELMO, just for

23 clarification, because I am afraid there was a misunderstanding on the

24 transcript.

25 To the best of your recollection, could you please tell us as

Page 7110

1 regards the situation of the restroom, toilet, was it situated between

2 Room 2 and 3, or 2 and 4? Was there access to this toilet from two rooms,

3 and please, point once again with your pointer to the exact point where

4 you recall that there was the access to this toilet.

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The toilet, it's true that it was

6 after Room 2, but this part of the Keraterm factory here protrudes a

7 little bit. So you can't say that it was immediately after -- immediately

8 next to Room Number 2, but here, at this corner. And then after the

9 toilet come the rooms Number 3 and 4.

10 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: So it was not in front -- as seen now from our

11 perspective, in front of Room 3, but between Room 2 and 3. Is this

12 correct?

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

14 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Thank you for this clarification to the

15 transcript.

16 Now, the floor is open for the Defence, please.

17 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honours.

18 Cross-examined by Mr. Lukic:

19 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Mr. Arifagic.

20 A. Good afternoon.

21 Q. We speak the same language. They refer to it here as B/C/S.

22 A. Yes, that's probably true.

23 Q. There might be some difficulty when I pose the question. Please,

24 make a short pause following my question so that the interpreters may have

25 enough time to interpret. Also, if you see me waiting for some time after

Page 7111

1 you've completed your answer, that doesn't mean I'm not happy with your

2 answer; that only means I'm waiting for the interpreters to finish their

3 work.

4 Can we begin now?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. You returned to Kozarac in December of 1992?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Did you work in Croatia before that time?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Were you a member of the National Guard while you were in Croatia?

11 A. No.

12 Q. Did you bring back from Croatia the weapon that you had used

13 there?

14 A. No, perhaps I owe you an explanation. The seat of my company was

15 actually in Croatia, but as I have previously said in my statement, I

16 spent five and a half years on a construction site in Libya with my

17 company.

18 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter would like to correct the date

19 in the first answer. It's 1991, not 1992.

20 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

21 Q. Thank you. Can you please explain where you obtained the weapons

22 from, the weapons you had in Kozarac.

23 A. The hunting rifle I got from one of the villagers. Plenty of

24 people in Kozarac used to hunt, so many people had hunting rifles. It was

25 a hunting rifle. So when someone came to relieve me at the guard duty

Page 7112

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12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.

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Page 7113

1 where I was, I just leave him the rifle.

2 Q. Following the 30th of April, 1992, how many members of the police

3 force were in Kozarac? I'm talking about both the active and the

4 reserve-duty police officers.

5 A. I could not give you the exact number, but there was a high number

6 of police officers in Kozarac at that time.

7 Q. Would you agree with some witnesses that there were about 100

8 police officers?

9 A. That sounds possible. I did not deal with the police, so I can't

10 tell you exactly how many people there were.

11 Q. Are you familiar with the fact that part of the police

12 equipment -- that the automatic rifle also belongs to the police

13 equipment?

14 A. I know that the police had weapons, but I thought that was only

15 for wartime. I did not think that they carried these weapons in peacetime

16 also.

17 Q. Are you aware of the existence of the Territorial Defence of

18 Kozarac?

19 A. If you mean -- yes, if you mean the Territorial Defence that

20 existed in Kozarac for a while. However, it had been there in Kozarac for

21 a long time, long before the takeover and the beginning of the conflict.

22 The Territorial Defence was led by people who were members of the reserve

23 forces of the JNA wearing uniforms of the reserve forces. So the weapons

24 they had were weapons that belonged to the Territorial Defence. But as

25 far as I know all those weapons were later turned in.

Page 7114

1 Q. When you say "the weapons were turned in later," which moment

2 exactly are you talking about? Which point in time?

3 A. I don't know the exact date, but I know that the Territorial

4 Defence existed in Kozarac for at least half a year before the conflict in

5 Kozarac broke out. Who activated the TO forces, I don't know, because at

6 that point no one was even thinking about it.

7 Q. Thank you.

8 You say that the Kozarac area was surrounded by ten Serb villages.

9 A. About ten.

10 Q. You said you had set up checkpoints facing Serb villages in order

11 to protect yourselves?

12 A. You can choose to call it a checkpoint if you like.

13 Q. Or guard points.

14 A. Yes, we were in the Kozarac area, and we were simply observing.

15 Q. Does that mean that there were at least ten such points?

16 A. You mean around the whole of Kozarac?

17 Q. Yes.

18 A. People mainly patrolled of their own initiative through the

19 Kozarac area trying to prevent anything bad from happening and watching

20 who was entering the villages -- the village.

21 Q. You said that the Serb media, particularly after the repeater on

22 Mount Kozara had been taken, referred to the Bosnian army as the "Green

23 Berets"?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Is it possible that this was -- that this was happening as early

Page 7115

1 as February or March 1992?

2 A. That sounds possible because even that early in Bijeljina and some

3 other places, conflicts had broken out. That was a name they used

4 referring to an army. They called this army the Green Berets, whether

5 this was such thing as a BH army or not, probably not.

6 Q. At that time, did you know or did you learn later about the

7 existence of the BH army?

8 A. I knew about the TO, but I didn't know about the existence of the

9 army.

10 Q. Did you learn later on about the existence of the Green Berets?

11 A. Yes, after I had left the camp, I heard stories about the Green

12 Berets. But while I was still staying there, I knew nothing about that.

13 Q. Bosniaks and Croats refused to respond to the mobilisation

14 call-ups in 1991. Did you know whether anyone was arrested because of

15 that? Do you know of any such specific cases?

16 A. Not where I lived, but people used to hide, and they simply didn't

17 want to respond.

18 Q. Page 19 of today's transcript, you speak about a helicopter that

19 landed in Balte. And you say that this helicopter brought weapons to the

20 inhabitants of Balte. You say a relative of yours who worked as a police

21 officer in Kozarac informed you about this. When did you learn this from

22 your relative? Do you remember?

23 A. That was immediately prior to the takeover of Prijedor, before the

24 conflict broke out and before the Serb authorities took power in Prijedor.

25 Q. In your statement of 1994 to officials of this Tribunal, did you

Page 7116

1 not state that you had no idea what was in that helicopter?

2 A. That's quite possible.

3 Q. I would now like to ask you something concerning the oath of

4 loyalty. Were all inhabitants of Kozarac required to sign the oath of

5 loyalty to Serb authorities, or were only police officers required to do

6 so? Do you know that?

7 A. As far as I knew, probably what was required was the whole of --

8 for the whole of Kozarac to sign an oath of loyalty. What was implicit in

9 that request, I couldn't tell.

10 Q. You never actually saw this piece of paper that was to be signed,

11 did you?

12 A. No, I didn't.

13 Q. How did you learn about this request?

14 A. Becir Medunjanin and the people who held appointments, elected

15 appointments, in Kozarac were in permanent contact with the authorities in

16 Prijedor. And after that, they informed the people of Kozarac. They

17 asked for an opinion whether maybe in the name of the people of Kozarac an

18 oath of loyalty was to be signed; the people, however, refused.

19 Q. So you did not hear about this over the radio; Becir Medunjanin

20 told you.

21 A. Later I heard over the radio, too, that the population of the

22 surrounding villages - but that was some time before - was called upon to

23 sign an oath of loyalty to the authorities in Prijedor. But during the

24 war and during the events preceding the war, I was informed by

25 Becir Medunjanin that we were actually required to sign this oath of

Page 7117

1 loyalty.

2 Q. In connection with this, you say: "We had information that some

3 villages had, in fact, signed this oath of loyalty and turned in their

4 weapons, but that despite having signed the oath of loyalty, they were

5 later attacked." Can you tell us which villages exactly you had in mind

6 when you said this?

7 A. Hambarine, for example. We heard that they had turned in their

8 weapons and signed the oath of loyalty, but several days later, we could

9 see the villages burning from Kozarac.

10 Q. Did you see Hambarine burning only two or three days before

11 Kozarac was attacked?

12 A. Yes, I think it was at that time.

13 Q. Did you hear about the incident that took place at the checkpoint

14 in Hambarine?

15 A. They did say something about that on the radio, about the

16 checkpoint being attacked, but I did not know anything more than that.

17 Q. In the course of your testimony, and even now, you mentioned that

18 you were given information about some things by Becir Medunjanin, special

19 information concerning negotiations with SDS officials. You claim that

20 after every round of negotiations, they would go and visit the people on

21 the ground explaining the situation, the situation at any given moment in

22 that period.

23 Q. Will you please tell us how this information was passed on? Were

24 meetings organised, or did they just go from house to house?

25 A. No, we mostly did this in the halls of culture we had in our

Page 7118

1 villages. People would assemble, then they would explain the situation,

2 they wanted the people's opinion, and then they would just leave and go

3 somewhere else.

4 Q. Can you please tell us how many such meetings do you remember?

5 A. In the part of town where I lived, we had two or three such

6 meetings.

7 Q. Can you please tell us who attended these meetings.

8 A. The meetings I'm talking about were attended by Becir Medunjanin

9 and Besim Alic. The meetings were also attended by the local population

10 of the respective villages.

11 Q. When you say "the local population," do you mean military-aged

12 men, or do you also imply that women and children attended?

13 A. I think there was no need for children to attend such meetings, so

14 mostly these meetings were attended by men.

15 Q. You say you stood guard in the part of the Kozarac area in the

16 village of Javori.

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Do you live in Javori?

19 A. No, I don't, but I live in the village that's next to it.

20 Q. Who was it who decided or ordered you to be in Javori? Who

21 assigned you to Javori?

22 A. No one in particular. We agreed amongst ourselves that there was

23 no need for guards to sit in front of their individual houses, that we

24 should go to the outskirts of Kozarac and stand guard there and try to

25 protect the population.

Page 7119

1 Q. Did anyone organise shifts of guards?

2 A. It was usually done on our own initiative. When we finished our

3 shift, another group would come, and they would take over our weapons so

4 that the guard duty could continue.

5 Q. Mr. Sead Cirkin, did he make any decisions in relation to these

6 guards?

7 A. Well, in view of his position, that is, the position that he used

8 to have in the JNA, yes, because we all believed that he would be able to

9 do something to avoid the conflict.

10 Q. You say that Simo Drljaca addressed the people after the massacre

11 that occurred in Room 3 in Keraterm. You testified that he said something

12 to the effect that this should not have happened. Do you know who it was

13 that he was addressing? Was he talking to the guards or the detainees?

14 A. I don't think I'm able to tell you who exactly it was he was

15 addressing. He was standing in the middle of a group of people, that is,

16 the people who were there. And the message was passed on us to detainees

17 that what happened was the result of a mistake and that in the future, we

18 would be better protected.

19 Q. One more point from today's testimony, on page 56, you told us who

20 accompanied Simo Drljaca, and you mentioned that there was a man there

21 whose one arm was missing.

22 A. Yes, there was a man there who had one arm missing from elbow

23 down. And he was wearing a white coat.

24 Q. And you think he was a doctor?

25 A. Yes, it was because of this coat that he had that I thought he was

Page 7120

1 a doctor.

2 Q. I've asked you this only in order to clarify a point in the

3 transcript because the record reflects that there was a man without one

4 hand, and another man. But actually, we're talking about one and the same

5 person. Is that correct?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. When meetings were held in Kozarac, the meetings which were

8 attended by Mr. Medunjanin and his collaborators, when he informed you,

9 the residents of Kozarac, on the prevailing situation in the Prijedor

10 Municipality, who organised, who convened these meetings if you know?

11 A. Usually a local resident would inform us that there would be a

12 meeting and where the venue would be, and that there would be some new

13 pieces of information. But mostly, as I say, it was the local residents

14 who would inform us about such meetings.

15 Q. Was it a unanimous decision, the decision not to sign the oath of

16 loyalty to Serb authorities, or was there any outvoting? How was the

17 decision not to sign the oath of loyalty reached?

18 A. At the meetings that I attended, the decision was made unanimously

19 but the Kozarac residents. They decided that the oath of loyalty should

20 not be signed. However, they also stated that as far as we were

21 concerned, the Prijedor authorities could be sure that we would not attack

22 anyone.

23 Q. Can you tell us how many days after the takeover the first such

24 meeting was held?

25 A. I don't know exactly, a couple of days later perhaps.

Page 7121

1 Q. Was there ever -- were there ever any incidents at your

2 checkpoint, at the point overlooking the village of Balte, prior to the

3 24th of May, 1992?

4 A. No.

5 Q. Are you familiar with the fact that a large number of people from

6 Balte were mobilised and that they were not in their village at the time

7 but deployed at the front line?

8 A. No.

9 Q. Did you ever establish any contact with the population of Balte

10 during these guard shifts?

11 A. Yes, there was a shop not far from Balte. I think that people

12 from Balte came to this shop from time to time, and we would occasionally

13 have a chat. I think that this happened even after the takeover in

14 Prijedor. I mean, these people were familiar to us. We knew them very

15 well. They were our neighbours, after all. Some of them even paid us a

16 visit in Keraterm.

17 Q. Seven days prior to the outbreak of fighting in Kozarac, at the

18 Prijedor/Banja Luka Road, at at least two locations on this main road in

19 the village of Kozarusa and the village of Jakupovici, there were both

20 Serb and Bosniak barricades, roadblocks, that is?

21 A. I don't think we can talk about roadblocks. As far as our side is

22 concerned, those were just regular guards as we had in Kozarac. I mean,

23 those were not machine-gun nests surrounded by sandbags. It was just a

24 group of people who were there just in case of an attack, in order to

25 ensure normal traffic on that road including the population and the

Page 7122

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13 English transcripts.

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Page 7123

1 vehicles so that the traffic would function normally.

2 Q. Is it your testimony today that the traffic was normal on that

3 road at that time?

4 A. At the time, seven days before the attack, no. Up until that

5 time, yes. However, when the presence of the guards was intensified, no,

6 despite the fact that there were no physical barricades on the road. This

7 was practically a response to the setting up of a checkpoint in Orlovci,

8 because as a result of that, we were not able to travel to Prijedor. We

9 were not able to travel to Omarska, so we knew that something was brewing,

10 that something would soon happen.

11 Q. Are you aware of a request issued by the Banja Luka command

12 concerning a passage of a military convoy on the 24th of May, 1992, when

13 the conflict in Kozarac broke out?

14 A. No, I'm not.

15 Q. But you must be aware of the fact that on that day, there was a

16 convoy of military vehicles moving from the direction of Banja Luka?

17 A. Yes, I heard about that.

18 Q. You heard when Kapetan Cirkin was being briefed by a commander

19 from the local checkpoint there, that is, the checkpoint in Jakupovici,

20 who was telling him that a military convoy was approaching?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. You also heard when Kapetan Cirkin issued commands to the person

23 who had called him from that checkpoint, that is, when he told him that he

24 shall let the tanks come close to him, close enough so that he could

25 destroy them with a hand-held rocket launcher, with a Zolja?

Page 7124

1 A. Yes, but the convoy did not consist only of tanks, but also of

2 infantry troops. It was not an ordinary military convoy moving along a

3 road. It was a classical military attack.

4 Q. Do you know that at least one of the tanks was destroyed?

5 A. Yes, I think that that's what I heard subsequently that one was

6 destroyed, and that one was put out of order. Whether this information is

7 accurate, I don't know. I was not there.

8 Q. However, it is clear from this command issued by Kapetan Cirkin

9 that he knew that the people manning the checkpoint in Jakupovici had

10 Zoljas at their disposal?

11 A. Yes, that was probably the case.

12 Q. At the time of the negotiations with the Serb side, you said that

13 the decisions that were reached would be transmitted by telephone.

14 A. I'm afraid I don't understand your question. What do you mean by

15 "telephone"?

16 Q. What I want to know is whether the telephone communication was

17 possible at the time.

18 A. I don't think that the telephone lines were operating after the

19 takeover. It's possible that there was telephone communication between

20 the police station in Kozarac and the police station in Prijedor, so that

21 was probably the channel that was used for that purpose.

22 Q. What kind of radio station did you have at your guard post?

23 A. We had this old-fashioned type of police radio station which was

24 improved, but later it stopped functioning because we didn't have

25 batteries.

Page 7125

1 Q. But they were working on the day of the attack because

2 Kapetan Cirkin was able to use them to communicate with the checkpoints?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. What about your radio station, was it built in in your vehicle, or

5 was it a portable hand-held radio station?

6 A. No, it was just a small portable hand-held radio station.

7 Q. Did the majority of the Kozarac population believe that the

8 situation would be peacefully solved?

9 A. Yes, I believe they did. I think that at the time the majority of

10 the Kozarac residents sincerely wished for a peaceful solution to be found

11 in order for the conflict to be avoided. I don't think that -- I think

12 that more than 90 per cent of us believed that there would not be any kind

13 of conflict.

14 Q. However, the fact remains that at the same time, the population

15 was being armed and that the conditions put out by Serb authorities were

16 not accepted, including the signing of an oath of loyalty?

17 A. I am not aware of any arming of the population. As to accepting

18 the conditions of Serb authorities, I think that what local people

19 considered to be their government were people who had been legally elected

20 at the elections, those who had taken power by force, we didn't consider

21 them as "legal" authorities.

22 Q. It is somewhat difficult to talk about legality and legal

23 authorities at the time.

24 A. Well, yes. I'm not a lawyer.

25 Q. Because then we would have to consider the issue of mobilisation,

Page 7126

1 and we would have to consider those who were not responding to

2 mobilisation as violating the legal request.

3 A. Well, there were people -- I think that the majority of people,

4 Croats and Bosniaks from Bosnia and Herzegovina, we did not want to go to

5 fight war in Croatia. I think that at least as far as I am concerned, if

6 I had been mobilised to go to Croatia and to fight Croats there, I don't

7 think I would have responded to the mobilisation call. We, the people of

8 Kozarac, never attacked anyone.

9 Even today, if you go to the area of Kozarac, you can see for

10 yourself that not a single Serb house had been attacked. We never

11 attacked any Serb villages. I wanted to remain at home. I wanted to live

12 peacefully, and I was naive enough to have moved into my family house 20

13 days before the outbreak of the conflict. I really believed in peace. I

14 wanted to live there with my family. Those were my thoughts at the time.

15 But it seems that I was naive.

16 Q. You may have been naive, but did you notice that other people were

17 sending their families away?

18 A. Are you referring to the people in Kozarac, that they sent away

19 their families from Kozarac?

20 Q. Yes.

21 A. Well, I believe that those people who had means to do that did

22 send their families away. I didn't do that. I didn't feel the need to go

23 and leave my home. I didn't think it was necessary for me to protect

24 myself in any way.

25 Q. Did anyone convey to you the exact request of the Serb authorities

Page 7127

1 from the population of Kozarac immediately prior to the attack? And if

2 so, what was it that was conveyed to us? What was the request made of the

3 population of Kozarac?

4 A. What I learned before the attack was that they wanted

5 Becir Medunjanin and two other residents of Kozarac, the representative of

6 the local religious community, and one other person to come to the

7 checkpoint in Orlovci to talk to Radmilo Zeljaja. However, they kept

8 repeating their request that the people of Kozarac should sign an oath of

9 loyalty and turn in their weapons.

10 Q. Is it true that the majority of the negotiations were held with

11 Radmilo Zeljaja?

12 A. That's quite possible.

13 Q. Do you know whether any minutes of that meeting were kept?

14 A. No, I was not present there.

15 Q. When the delegation returned from the last round of talks, and

16 after they had explained to the people what the situation was, did people

17 as a result of that become even more resolute in their intention to defend

18 Kozarac, or whether they were inclined to meet the requests of

19 Radmilo Zeljaja?

20 A. Well, they still -- they still maintained their position, that is,

21 that they would not attack anyone, but also that likewise they did not

22 want to sign any oath of loyalty or turn in the weapons.

23 Q. Let me now go back to the checkpoints in Kozarusa and Jakupovici.

24 You heard over the radio set that hand-to-hand fighting had started at

25 these two checkpoints?

Page 7128

1 A. I believe that it happened at the Jakupovici checkpoint, that the

2 convoy started moving and the people manning the checkpoint had no choice

3 and started retreating towards Kozarac.

4 Q. Towards the centre of Kozarac?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. At the checkpoint or the guard post where you were, you ordered

7 your people to open fire two by two so that it would look that they had

8 more ammunition than they, in fact, did?

9 A. Yes, because the people in Jakupovici -- at the Jakupovici told us

10 that they didn't have enough time to pull out all the women and children,

11 that the attack was coming from the direction of the village of Balte, and

12 that was the reason why we opened fire. But we didn't have enough

13 ammunition. We thought that if we opened fire, the attack would decrease

14 in its intensity and that it would give enough time to the people of

15 Jakupovici to pull out their women and children out of the area.

16 Q. What is the distance between Jakupovici and the centre of Kozarac?

17 A. The distance between Jakupovici and the centre of Kozarac is

18 perhaps 5 or 6 kilometres.

19 Q. The fact is, therefore, that the fighting that you started did, in

20 fact, keep the Serbs at bay and that it took them two days to reach the

21 centre of Kozarac?

22 A. No, I don't think so. We did open fire, but fighting occurred in

23 Jakupovici as well, that is, on the road, the Prijedor/Banja Luka Road.

24 And the distance between that and the centre of Kozarac is 4 or 5 -- 3 to

25 4 kilometres, that is, from Kozarac and the road where the fighting took

Page 7129

1 place.

2 MR. WAIDYARATNE: May I be permitted --

3 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

4 MR. WAIDYARATNE: I'm sorry to interrupt my friend at this stage,

5 but the question reads: "The fact is, therefore, that the fighting that

6 you started did..." There was no such position taken by the witness, just

7 for the record, Your Honour. That's incorrectly stated by the learned

8 colleague.

9 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I tried to -- I wanted to ask the

10 witness about the fighting that he and his men joined in.

11 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: The witness never said or stated that he started

12 the fighting.

13 THE INTERPRETER: It may have been the interpreter's mistake, Your

14 Honour.

15 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Thank you for your intervention.

16 MR. LUKIC: [In English] And I want to thank the interpreters for

17 helping me.

18 Q. [Interpretation] Do you know who issued the order for the guard

19 shifts to last 24 hours a day?

20 A. When the takeover in Prijedor took place, we knew that something

21 was going on and the decision was made that there should be a

22 round-the-clock guard duty. We wanted to prevent any incident from

23 occurring in the town of Kozarac.

24 Q. At that moment, was the number of guard posts increased?

25 A. Probably, yes. Where we were, the village was inhabited, and the

Page 7130

1 inhabitants also watched the outer perimeter of the village just in case

2 someone was to be prevented from penetrating the village.

3 Q. Were these guard posts positioned at regular intervals along the

4 whole perimeter of Kozarac?

5 A. We didn't have the sufficient number of people to have guard posts

6 proper. Those were patrols of two or three persons, just surveying the

7 situation to keep anything bad from happening. That's mostly how this

8 was.

9 Q. However, immediately before the attack at your guard post, at your

10 own guard post, there were 50 people. Right?

11 A. 50 people? If you count the inhabitants who were also there, then

12 perhaps even more, but that was an inhabited village, and we who actually

13 stood guard duty, we were perhaps about 10 people.

14 Q. We'll come back to that later.

15 You said at one point that you only took orders from

16 Becir Medunjanin, and Osme, the police chief.

17 A. We obtained information from them on the current situation.

18 Q. Was there anyone in the Kozarac area who was in terms of hierarchy

19 above these two men?

20 A. I don't believe so. I think people mostly talked to Becir or

21 Besim Alic or to Cirkin concerning police matters because those were the

22 people who represented the people at that point.

23 Q. Let me ask you something else concerning the radio sets. How

24 often did you use radio connections to send reports about the situation on

25 the ground, and who did you send these reports to?

Page 7131

1 A. We never sent any reports of the kind. The radio sets were used

2 for us to obtain new information should there be any new developments, of

3 course. We were only receiving instructions to the effect that we should

4 never open fire on anyone or return fire. It mostly came down to just

5 having some sort of a communications system so we could be informed about

6 any new possible developments.

7 Q. Do you remember a situation you described at one point, Zeljaja

8 requested that Medunjanin, Besim Alic, who was president of the citizens

9 club in Kozarac, and other two citizens from Kozarac as well as a Muslim

10 religious leader should come to the Orlovci checkpoint for further

11 negotiations to reach some sort of an agreement?

12 A. Yes, I've talked about this already. That was the last attempt to

13 come to an agreement.

14 Q. Do you know what Mr. Medunjanin replied?

15 A. He replied that the people of Kozarac did not want to sign any

16 oath of loyalty, but that both he and the people of Kozarac could offer

17 guarantees, sure guarantees, to the people in Prijedor that we would not

18 carry out any attacks.

19 Q. Did Mr. Medunjanin try to organise another meeting after this?

20 A. I think he simply informed the citizens about what happened at the

21 meeting, and that's how it ended.

22 Q. Do you know the checkpoints in Jakupovici and Kozarusa, there was

23 a mine field surrounding those checkpoints? Do you know that?

24 A. No, I've never heard of anything like that.

25 Q. I would like to review a completely different area now. Can you

Page 7132

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Page 7133

1 please try to think back and recall the moment when you were released from

2 Trnopolje on the 1st of October, 1992.

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. On that occasion were any conditions imposed on you that you

5 should sign over your property to the Autonomous Region of Krajina or

6 Republika Srpska or was there no talk of that at all in fact?

7 A. I think the signing of the documents we were given, first you had

8 to file a request for emigration, and then you had to sign over your

9 property. I think that was part of the forms, the documents, we were

10 given. And then later on we received a decision stating that our

11 emigration from the Serbian Krajina was approved. Signing the document

12 was a condition for us to leave -- in order to leave the camp. I had

13 nothing to sign over at that moment anyway, because all of my property had

14 been razed to the ground.

15 Q. The Keraterm case, page 1601, when you were questioned by

16 Mr. Ryneveld, I'll read this in English so you get a proper translation.

17 The question is: [In English] "Was there any mention made of your

18 property and what would happen to it?" Your answer was: "No, nobody

19 raised that."

20 A. It's quite possible that that was indeed what I replied. The

21 question really wasn't raised, but the condition to leave the camp was to

22 sign over your property. Had I done this under any normal conditions, of

23 course, I would never had chosen to leave my own country and my home after

24 so many years. I was compelled to file a request for emigration from the

25 Serbian Krajina.

Page 7134

1 And following that, I was not able to return to my home for the

2 next ten years. I'm not sure that anyone in the right state of mind and

3 under normal conditions would do a thing like that, file a motion like

4 that with some local authorities and then go away and leave for somewhere,

5 leaving their home behind.

6 Q. I feel I fully understand how you feel.

7 A. No, you don't.

8 Q. Because I shared your situation. I was in the same situation as

9 you. However, are you today positive that you signed this document

10 signing over your property, or are you not positive?

11 A. No, I signed no direct statement signing over my property to

12 anyone else, but I did sign a request for emigration. And I was sent a

13 decision that a certain committee in Prijedor Municipality approves my

14 emigration, and that I could emigrate of my own free will. But we all

15 know that this was not my will. I was compelled to emigrate; otherwise, I

16 would not have been able to survive.

17 Q. I accept this, and that's not what I'm asking you. I mean, that

18 you were compelled to file a request to emigrate. My question was: Are

19 you sure that you actually signed your property over to someone else or

20 renounced on your property?

21 A. I don't know this, but I know that if I go back to Prijedor

22 Municipality today, I have to file a request for my property to be given

23 back to me because it was taken away from me. I can't go back to my home

24 until I get a permission from the authorities in Prijedor to have my

25 property back, which means that it was taken away from me at some point.

Page 7135

1 The only thing that still remains is the land.

2 Q. But you will agree that this is the legal frame that is valid both

3 in the Bosnian federation and in Republika Srpska nowadays, and that this

4 is valid no matter whether someone has renounced their property or not?

5 A. I'm not sure about the situation concerning laws in Bosnia and

6 Herzegovina nowadays, but I know that when I go there to have something

7 which is mine back, as far as I am familiar with international law,

8 private property is inalienable.

9 Q. In our country, there are lots of things that are not normal or

10 common in the rest of the world.

11 A. Perhaps we should try and struggle to change these things.

12 Q. I fully agree with you, but we must go back to the hearing at

13 hand.

14 In your statement of the 28th of February, 1995, to the

15 investigators of the Tribunal, you contend that you as well as many other

16 inmates were in possession of an ID in the Keraterm camp.

17 A. I did, and I still am in possession of my old Bosnian ID today.

18 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Could Defence counsel please be so kind and come

19 back to our formal good habit to quote the page and the paragraph. It

20 facilitates really to come back to this.

21 MR. LUKIC: [In English] I have B/C/S. It's page 4, paragraph 1.

22 But I don't have an English version at all.

23 In English, the paragraph should start: "As far as I remember, at

24 the end of July..." Something like that.

25 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: The statement of 1995.

Page 7136

1 MR. LUKIC: 1995, yes. That's the only question I have from this

2 statement, so that's why I didn't want to bother you with the photocopying

3 and...

4 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Then please proceed.

5 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

6 Q. Are you familiar with the following: The army arriving in the

7 Prijedor area from the beginning of 1992. Did all that army stay in

8 Prijedor, or were most of those units just passing through Prijedor?

9 A. Some of the units were just passing through. The units staying

10 there, I don't know. But this unit stayed -- passed through Kozarac and

11 was stationed for a long time near Mrakovica. Some other units may have

12 been stationed close to Prijedor, but convoys were passing to and through

13 every day. So I wasn't sure about the direction of each and every convoy.

14 Q. Was this also partly due to the withdrawal of the JNA from

15 Croatia?

16 A. I think so, because that's what we were told, that the JNA was

17 withdrawing from Croatia and taking most -- taking a large share of the

18 units over into Bosnia.

19 Q. I must ask you something that you have been asked before by my

20 colleague Greaves in the Keraterm trial. I will read part of your

21 testimony and I will ask you whether you remember stating that. It's

22 about the 27th of May when most of the people of Kozarac were surrendering

23 to the Serb forces. And you decided to head towards Kozara with your own

24 group and link up with Kapetan Cirkin. This is on page 7, English

25 version, the statement of 1994, paragraph 4. I'd like to quote a piece

Page 7137

1 from the middle of the paragraph.

2 You go on to say: "We passed the road, Kozarac/Mrakovica, in an

3 attempt to link up with Kapetan Cirkin and Medunjanin. As we passed the

4 road at Zeciji Kamen, there was a Serbian checkpoint. A fight then

5 ensued, and about 120 of the persons from our group were arrested. I

6 believe that some of those arrested were killed immediately, and that

7 others were transferred to Omarska."

8 Do you remember having stated that?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Is this true?

11 A. Yes. We came under fire, and about 120 people were arrested. I

12 think first they were taken to Benkovac, and then later on to Omarska.

13 Q. The following paragraph, just after this sentence, you say: "The

14 rest of us escaped but stayed in the area. We eventually found

15 Kapetan Cirkin and Medunjanin. They were with a group of about 750

16 people. Some among this group were women. Some of them wanted to attempt

17 to cross over into Croatia, and others wanted to mount a new attack. We

18 opted for a new attack. We split up into three groups with about 250

19 people each. The group I joined attacked Kozarac from Brdjani."

20 So my question is: How many people really took part in this new

21 attempt to liberate or conquer Kozarac, depending on which side you're

22 looking from?

23 A. The group with Becir Medunjanin and Cirkin consisted of about 750

24 people. Some wanted to go to Croatia, but others wanted to return to

25 Kozarac. I would not call this an attack. There was no need for me to

Page 7138

1 attack my own town.

2 On the other side, there were our own women and children who had

3 been taken away. The only thing we could try was to return to our homes

4 in Kozarac. I think there were people who tried to return, but they were

5 the minority, and no one had control or knew exactly how many people were

6 taking part. But then people tried to get into the town. And when tanks

7 started firing again, as well as the artillery, the only thing they could

8 do was retreat again towards Mount Kozara.

9 Q. You described the battle in the next paragraph. I quote: "A

10 fight broke out between the two groups, but when they started attacking

11 with the tank, we withdrew to the area of Kozaracki Kamen. I could hear

12 sounds of fighting near the centre of Kozarac, and I realised that the

13 other two groups had been successful in their attempt to break through to

14 the centre. I later found out that they had been outnumbered by the enemy

15 and that they had also withdrawn from the village."

16 Did you later learn whether these two groups really managed to

17 reach the centre of Kozarac?

18 A. On their way to Kozarac, near Kozarac, near the centre of Kozarac,

19 they came across Serb troops who opened fire, and then several young men

20 were killed, and they withdrew.

21 MR. LUKIC: [In English] Your Honour, I think that I have another

22 half an hour at least with this witness. So should I proceed or...

23 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: No, I think it's appropriate to restart

24 tomorrow; also from the side of the Judges, there are some questions

25 remaining. And let's proceed with the cross-examination tomorrow.

Page 7139

1 The OTP stands up. There must be a --

2 MR. KOUMJIAN: I had an oral motion, a very brief one, if I could

3 make it, unrelated to the witness. There is a report being prepared,

4 there's a draft -- should be available this afternoon, regarding the

5 exhumations that were performed by both the ICTY and the Bosnians in the

6 area that were concerning victims from Prijedor. The report names many of

7 our witnesses, so for that reason I'm asking permission from the Trial

8 Chamber to file that confidentially. It's to the Defence, but not

9 publicly.

10 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: No doubt agreed. And I would be more than happy

11 to hear my second language as soon as possible on a video.

12 MR. KOUMJIAN: It's available for both parties.

13 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Is it formally tendered as evidence?

14 MR. KOUMJIAN: No, Your Honour. I'm not -- we weren't going to do

15 that. I can review it again and see. To be honest, I watched it a very

16 long time ago, and haven't watched it recently --

17 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Let's come back to this tomorrow. Anything else

18 in preparation for tomorrow? What can we expect in case we can conclude

19 the cross-examination during the morning session?

20 MR. KOUMJIAN: We don't have any witnesses from abroad or experts

21 ready. We have the video that was provided by Witness Sivac which is

22 about 10 or 15 minutes - the transcript is prepared - we could play that.

23 And Mr. Inayat would be available also, if that's an appropriate time.

24 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Would you be prepared to cross-examine? I asked

25 you several times during the last month, and now we should take the

Page 7140

1 occasion when you are here.

2 MR. OSTOJIC: We anticipate to be prepared, Your Honour. So it

3 all depends on what his direct examination is. But we look forward to

4 seeing Mr. Inayat again.

5 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Okay. Thank you for being prepared. And first

6 of all, I have to thank our witness of today for giving us the information

7 and for being prepared to give additional information tomorrow. Thank you

8 for this. You're excused for today.

9 The trial stays adjourned until tomorrow, 9.30, without any

10 doubt. 9.30.

11 [The witness stands down]

12 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at

13 4.00 p.m., to be reconvened on

14 Thursday, the 29th day of August, 2002,

15 at 9.30 a.m.

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