1 Tuesday, 17 September 2002
2 [Depositions Hearing]
3 [Open session]
4 [The accused entered court]
5 [The witness entered court]
6 --- Upon commencing at 9.33 a.m.
7 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Good morning, everybody. So there are no
8 remaining doubts, I have to emphasise in the beginning that once again our
9 procedure follows the Rules as laid down in order to the depositions to be
10 taken pursuant to Rule 71 under Rule 15 bis the order of 11 September,
11 2002, due to the continued illness of Judge Fassi Fihri.
12 We started yesterday, came to a certain point when the witness was
13 kind enough to read out some portions of earlier notes, but before we
14 start, please let us know in what case we are acting today.
15 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning. This is case number IT-97-24-T, the
16 Prosecutor versus Milomir Stakic.
17 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Thank you. And the appearances, please.
18 MR. KOUMJIAN: Become, Your Honours. Nicholas Koumjian with Ruth
19 Karper for the Office of the Prosecutor.
20 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Thank you and for the Defence.
21 MR. LUKIC: Good morning, Your Honour. Branko Lukic, John
22 Ostojic, and Danilo Cirkovic for the Defence.
23 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Any obstacles starting immediately.
24 MR. LUKIC: Not on our side, Your Honour.
25 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Please proceed, Mr. Koumjian.
1 WITNESS: EDWARD SEBASTIAN VULLIAMY [Resumed]
2 Examined by Mr. Koumjian: [Continued]
3 Q. Mr. Vulliamy, thank you very much for reading those notes
4 regarding your conversation with Dr. Kovacevic. Did you complete reading
5 those notes yesterday?
6 A. Did we complete the reading of what was in the-- yes, we did.
8 Q. We noted at several points you said "something". Did that
9 indicate that you could not today read the word that you had written six
10 and a half years ago?
11 A. It meant that under the circumstances yesterday, and there were
12 circumstances which led to a stuttered rendering for which I apologise to
13 Your Honours, that I was not able to recognise the word at the pace at
14 which I wish to proceed, and I have not seen those notes for several years
15 and was not aware that they would be introduced. That's what I meant by
16 "something". And there were also other distractions which I can explain
17 if the Court wishes, particularly on the pages themselves. There was an
18 unfortunate circumstance in the actual document.
19 Q. Well, if you'd like to explain that.
20 A. I would, yes, if I may. If it please the Court, and I don't wish
21 to -- just pertaining to and I would certainly be very happy to answer any
22 questions on that reading and anything that would help the Court, but I
23 didn't know I was going to have to read them. I certainly stand by them.
24 But when I was asked by telephone sometime back to have them declassified
25 by a previous Bench, I was guaranteed that any addresses or telephone
1 numbers on the page would be deleted. It's my fault that I didn't notice
2 an address when I was looking through them quickly to have them cleared
3 yesterday, but a sensitive address had turned out had not been deleted and
4 when I saw it on the page I was rather thrown.
5 Q. I'll stop you now and at a later time we'll go into closed session
6 and take care of it?
7 A. Fine. And there were also some distractions in the courtroom
8 which put me off.
9 Q. I just want to go over a couple of quick points on the notes you
10 took. Again, you indicated you did not write the questions. Do you
11 attempt to write word-for-word? Is this a transcript of a conversation or
12 is it notes you took during a conversation getting the substance of what
13 was said?
14 A. I would not claim it to be an exact transcript of every word
15 spoken. Shorthand goes up to 150 words a minute which is faster than most
16 people speak. A hundred and ten or so words is average. I can write
17 somewhere around 90, I think. So it's not an exact transcript of what is
18 said, no.
19 Q. And again, what you are hearing is what the interpreter is giving
20 you rather than understanding the language of the speaker, Dr. Kovacevic;
21 is that correct?
22 A. Yes, absolutely. It's -- it is -- it is a rendering of a
23 translation, and it's normal practice to go over it with the translator
24 afterwards, which we did on that occasion.
25 Q. Okay. I want --
1 A. There was also another colleague taking notes as well.
2 Q. That was Mr. Cohen from the Times?
3 A. It was, yes.
4 Q. I want to move on later that day. Later that day, did you
5 interview Dr. Stakic?
6 A. Yes I did.
7 Q. Where was it that that interview took place?
8 A. It was in what I understood to be the office or his office of a
9 day health centre in Prijedor.
10 Q. Who was present during your interview with Dr. Stakic?
11 A. My colleague, Mr. Cohen, as mentioned before, the translator, Dr.
12 Stakic, and another man who was introduced some way through the
13 conversation as a Mr. Kondic, variously presented as his deputy at the
14 health centre initially and thereafter as his lawyer.
15 Q. Can you tell us to the best of your recollection now the
16 approximate time of day that the interview took place?
17 A. The evening.
18 Q. Can you give us a rough estimate of how long you talked to
19 Dr. Stakic in his office?
20 A. Not as long as with Dr. Kovacevic. I would say about -- between
21 maybe an hour, hour and a half maximum.
22 Q. During that conversation, did Dr. Stakic indicate what his present
23 position was? Or before you actually interviewed him, there was any
24 communication with him regarding any position, political position he held
25 at that time, February 1996?
1 A. Yes. He had, of course, been the mayor previously, and I knew
2 that, but there was, yes, a conversation about his candidacy to become the
3 mayor again for the SDS party.
4 Q. Thank you. I would now like you to read the notes of the
5 interview with Dr. Stakic. If they could be provided to the witness. And
6 again, before we begin, perhaps you can review these to see if there is
7 any confidential material that you do not want to be disclosed.
8 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Following the procedure of yesterday, we should
9 continue with DP6 and starting with the first page DP6-1. Could the usher
10 be so kind and during the reading out of the document provide always the
11 page just to be read out on the ELMO.
12 THE WITNESS: These are certainly all right for distribution.
13 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: They aren't distributed, I take it and
14 therefore, could you indicate to the usher is it the correct side to start
15 with which you can see now on the ELMO?
16 THE WITNESS: Yes, that's the one.
17 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Then DP -- it's now to be read out, DP6-1.
18 MR. KOUMJIAN:
19 Q. You may begin?
20 A. [As read] Thank you. Thank you, Your Honour. At the top,
21 "Stakic". Some lines which I don't think from looking at the page are
22 attributable to him. They come above a line below which appears his name
24 Q. Sorry to interrupt. May I ask you when you're reading as you just
25 began to do indicate at any time if there is a speaker other than
1 Dr. Stakic that you are recording. If we do not hear you identify any
2 other speaker, we will assume that the text is what you're recording that
3 Dr. Stakic said.
4 A. Thank you. And certainly. Obviously if Your Honours aren't happy
5 with the labelling of the notes, then please tell me.
6 The name "Stakic" at the top of the page. Somebody else now
7 speaking, it seems. He left here in 19 -- it looks like 1983. It's a
8 short period which, arrow, which only a short -- our candidate for the
9 something for a Croatian family. Line.
10 Not Stakic but S-T-K-I-C, arrow pointing down to text. Dr. Stakic
11 now speaking. I hope that the peace will last. I can talk about my work
12 here and the lack of medicine. Entered politics in 1990. Try and make a
13 solution for doctors in private practice. That is when I went into
14 politics. In the former Yugoslavia, there was not, sorry, It was
15 not -- pardon me. In former Yugoslavia, there was not a possibility for
16 doctors to practice privately. What happened later, I didn't have
17 anything to do with, that is why I turned back. I am still a member of
18 the local parliament. I saw that I cannot work on both sides, so I
19 resigned from, couldn't do my work and hold office.
20 In the margin, sometimes bulldog like. It's not Dr. Stakic
21 talking, it's a note.
22 There's a question and I can't read it. Objectives or objections
23 something. Questions. When dire or direction or something will come back
24 in there -- will come back on the theme. Talk about the lack of medicine.
25 Humanitarian organisations coming here and bringing medicines.
1 I am a candidate for the city mayor. This territory is very
2 interesting because Mr. Roy Gutman got a Pulitzer. He was here a couple
3 of times. Drank together. And he went away and wrote a lot of lies about
4 what was happening here. He was paid to do that.
5 Note in the margin, not Mr. Stakic talking. Swivels in chair,
6 deep in thought. Was working or taking medicines in. Arrow -- an arrow
7 usually implies -- I'm sorry, it's not Dr. Stakic speaking, this is me.
8 An arrow usually implies -- it points towards my colleague. He's sitting
9 on my right.
10 Wouldn't, cannot, or something cannot the medicines in. Hundred
11 and fifty kilometres. Instead only 60. In this century, three wars
12 happened here. These two world wars -- there were two world wars, but
13 included that was a civil war which happened here. If democratic west
14 really wants peace in these territories, they should accept this status
15 today, a Bosnia of two independent units. If Serbs with 500.000 expelled
16 from Croatia and many Serbs from there who lost their territories, and
17 they accepted IFOR. That is the only real solution, Bosnia,
18 Czechoslovakia, Cyprus.
19 If we - turn the page - cannot live as brothers, we can live as
20 good neighbours. If we recognised Bosnia with cantons in 1991, we would
21 have missed the war. Now, after the war we cannot go back. This is the
23 In the margin I have written "Uneasy," and another word.
24 As a doctor I saw many wounded persons, mute, killed persons
25 without parts of the body or of body. I cannot say that any problems were
1 solved by war. We watched the Muslim-Croatian federation television.
2 Alija Izetbegovic, every Muslim should have a gun. Now have a peace
3 signed. And he said, this is the first spec. The first part, he said. I
4 am not scared -- excuse me -- I am not scared, but we expect a reaction of
5 the democratic west. Alija Izetbegovic is not yet declared a war
6 criminal. If we -- if you had an Alija on the same level of as our
7 president, he should be accused. If our president is accused, crossed
8 out, Alija should be accused before our president, because he was a
9 president of state. Karadzic was the president of the SDS party. He is
10 much more responsibility. One and a half million Serbs, arrow pointing
11 right. It was the same feeling as if the USA would break up and you had a
12 line -- you had to live in another state. I saw and I expect the West to
13 react, but I saw what happened -- but I saw what was happening. The same
14 things as in the Second World War. They had bombs, got, had aeroplanes.
15 My great-grandfather mobilised by the Austria-Hungarian Empire.
16 He was sent to attack Serbia along with Tito. Getting Serbs or the Serbs,
17 they were first opposed, and they went into Serbia. Was on the English
18 side. He stayed alive and came to live here. Died in 1981 when I was
19 only 18.
20 1941, my grandfather was in the Partisans. He was not a
21 communist, he was killed fighting the Ustashas, 1944.
22 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: This concludes DP6-2 and now follows -3.
23 THE WITNESS: Now in the war again, my father was against the
24 Muslims and Croatians, have done more evil to the Serbs than the Germans
25 along with the protection of the NDH. When the people saw the Croatian
1 flag in 1991, the same flag as the Ustashas and the speeches of Franjo
2 Tudjman, it recalled Croatia of the Second World War. Created in Canada,
3 the Serbs were expelled in their constitution. The police and soldiers
4 were sent to - something - or in Serbian territory. The question for us
5 is: Do the Serbs have to stay on their knees or go back to Jasenovac a
6 second time? It had to be if it happened. The international community
7 established new borders, and that way we want to have peace. Don't is
8 doing -- Dayton is doing to put Bosnia, America, England, and France and
9 think politics of. War started in Croatia. The reaction was not too
10 much. All we wanted to do was to live the way we had always lived. Arrow
11 pointing right.
12 There were pictures of Serbs in Muslim camps. As a journalist you
13 have to come on the spot. They were never collected. Omarska --
14 MR. KOUMJIAN:
15 Q. If I could stop you there. This last sentence beginning there
16 were pictures of Serbs in Muslim camps, do you know what he was referring
17 to from the context, total context of the conversation and questions?
18 A. Definitely. We asked him and his friend about Omarska, and --
19 Q. Thank you. You can proceed.
20 A. And about the pictures, specifically the television pictures.
21 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: If you want to add something in this context,
22 please do so.
23 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir, I will.
24 Well, this -- at this point, as I've just said, he and his friend
25 are asked about Omarska and the -- and there is a conversation that
1 ensues, and specifically about the television pictures of the camp.
2 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: You mentioned several times his friends, and I
3 know that you gave a qualification, being neutral, as his friend. Would
4 you once again try to the best of your recollection, tell us what was the
5 capacity of this friend? Only what you know quite sure.
6 THE WITNESS: Well, I'm happy to answer your question. I was
7 myself a little confused, however. He was at first introduced as the
8 deputy -- as Dr. Stakic's deputy running the health centre. Then as my
9 notes will later note, I think, he was introduced as his lawyer. And then
10 afterwards, and this is slightly jumping ahead but I have to to answer
11 your question properly, the -- well, somebody said that actually neither
12 of these were true and this man was actually part of the police or
13 security forces.
14 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: I'm asking right now because to a certain extent
15 it is important. When taking these notes, at that point in time you had
16 which impression, friend, lawyer, or the said capacity?
17 THE WITNESS: At this point in the notes, he's the deputy head of
18 the health centre.
19 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Okay. Thank you for this clarification.
20 MR. KOUMJIAN:
21 Q. You may proceed.
22 A. Thank you. There were pictures of Serbs in Muslim camps. As a
23 journalist, you have to come on the spot. They were never collected.
24 Omarska. There was only interrogation process for particular
25 number of Muslims, and when they established a new prison, that was only a
1 place where the Muslims had illegal weapons, during the war in this
3 If I could interrupt myself here to -- in accordance with your
5 Q. Certainly.
6 A. There's now a question, as I recall --
7 MR. OSTOJIC: Pardon me if I may, Your Honour. Excuse me,
8 Mr. Vulliamy.
9 THE WITNESS: Not at all.
10 MR. OSTOJIC: I object to the process. If there is a question
11 pending the witness can answer it. The witness is required, as we did
12 with yesterday's reading of his notes, first to read the notes. After
13 that the OTP can gladly or any one of us can gladly inquire if there is
14 any inconsistency or issues that aren't clear, because quite frankly the
15 last comment that Mr. Vulliamy made is inconsistent with the typewritten
16 transcript or the typewritten notes that we've received, and I think this
17 would be better in order to keep a clear record that we at least have the
18 totality of the notes as he may recall them or as he may read them to us
19 today and then we can go back. And again it's not an issue of extending
20 it I just think it would make for a clearer record and when we come back
21 to the points because they are critical points obviously. So I would ask
22 that it be read, and if necessary we go back and question him on things
23 that are perhaps vague or inconsistent.
24 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: No doubt this is the most appropriate way to
25 proceed, but please look at page 10, line 22. There it reads: "If I
1 could interrupt myself" and I think it's for the witness, when quoting his
2 own notes, that he can -- may give additional explanations.
3 Please proceed in this way therefore. I think we should refrain
4 from interrupting the witness during reading out these notes, but
5 nevertheless, whenever you have additional spontaneous recollection,
6 please don't hesitate to tell us what comes into your mind when reading
7 out this document. Thank you.
8 THE WITNESS: I'll endeavour to accommodate everyone and make it
9 clear when I'm to label when I'm departing from the page if you follow me,
10 which I will do now. This is now me talking.
11 As I recall, there is now a question about -- some sort of
12 question about bringing in the Jasenovac camp as contrasted to or compared
13 to Omarska.
14 The -- now I am reading from the page: The comparison is not
15 good. The Muslims in Omarska had food, doctors. They didn't work. It
16 was not a hotel, but the comparison, comp., with a concentration camp is
17 not right. It was not a concentration camp. Omarska was not a
18 concentration camp.
19 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: DP6-4.
20 THE WITNESS: There's now -- sorry. Orthodox is the mind of the
22 Me speaking now. There are now two lines written by somebody
25 JUDGE SCHOMBURG:
1 Q. If you can explain. Point to the two lines you're referring to
2 and tell us who actually wrote that on the page.
3 A. This and this.
4 Q. Indicating the area boxed, the two lines boxed in the upper left.
5 A. Yes, with a star to the left. That is somebody else's hand. To
6 the best of my recollection, it is Mr. Kondic, the thus far deputy of the
7 health centre.
8 Pravoslavlje, Pravo e Slavan.
9 Now, the Serbs go to extreme only when their freedom is
10 threatened. Puts on a tape. It's the last cassette I bought as a
11 student. Fiddles about with a tape. Arrow down. Nashville skyline.
12 Me speaking: Over to the side of the page in a margin down from
13 the top.
14 Back to the text. This text goes off the page, so what I say now
15 might not be the complete note.
16 It's not so present something. The Serbs want
17 to - something - free. Unfortunately, they learned to defend - off the
18 page - freedom even in - off the page - Jasenovac. You - off the
19 page - cannot make a pic. Picture of the Serbs in their - off the
20 page - freedom is in their something - off the page - psych., psychology.
21 Freedom is holy to the Serbs. Also our Orthodox, crossed out, our just
22 and true religion. Serbs are not extreme.
23 MR. KOUMJIAN:
24 Q. If I can just interrupt for a moment. That paragraph that you
25 just read something that "is not so something present," I believe you were
1 reading the text to the right of the page; correct?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Do you know who the speaker is on that text?
4 A. It is the other gentleman that is not Dr. Stakic.
5 Q. That's Mr. Kondic.
6 A. Mr. Kondic, yes.
7 Q. Thank you. If you could now proceed. Indicate who the next
8 speaker is.
9 A. Now back to Dr. Stakic in the main page. Reading from the text.
10 Two hundred and ninety patients, 15.000. 107 new TB patients.
11 Children don't have - something - in schools. They don't have books.
12 After school, they don't have opportunities for other actions. What shall
13 we do with children from early ages? What shall we do with them? If we
14 did not have ICRC or MSF, 70 per cent of our needs, medical materials,
15 what will happen? Sanctions are get alive or something alive. Our
16 economy doesn't work. Fifteen to 30 per cent. And can I say Chinese
17 saying: Don't give up hope. Take me to work. Let us live and work.
18 Tues. 21. Most don't even work. We can only defend ourselves.
19 No one can stop us from defending. If the west allow the west attacked.
20 Arrow pointing to the right.
21 At this moment, the place of city mayor is free. SDS party has a
22 right to have a new candidate which are I or I am eyeing, crossed out. We
23 taught the German Empire how to eat with a spoon and now we have to learn
24 and they want to teach us about democracy. Socialist Party and Republika
25 Srpska. And they -- and they - something - they are independent party.
1 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: DP6-5.
2 THE WITNESS: Something dep. part or dep. party will decide who
3 will be or who will - something, something - it was succeed or success to
4 be close to Sarajevo. Stakic: The Serb or Serbs are not scared.
5 Jasenovac is our sacred thing. These days, Tudjman wants to establish
6 Jasenovac as a monument to the Croatian victims, to put the same between
7 victims and killers. The time will come when we will have a great victory
8 in this area.
9 End text. Back up to the top of the page, quoting from the
10 margin: Man: It's not possible to solve this problem without the Serbs.
11 We will be more slow, will be more slow, but the Serbs can wait. It's
12 necessary to wait for freedom and to fight for freedom. We used all
13 democratic ways to keep freedom, but we couldn't. If you spent a bit more
14 time -- or sorry, if you spent a little bit more time with us, it could be
15 clear for -- for you that the Serbs did not begin this war and all this
16 killing in the camps.
17 MR. KOUMJIAN:
18 Q. If I can interrupt again. That passage that you just read, you
19 said you were quote from the margin, "It's not possible to solve this
20 problem," who was the speaker for that passage you've just read?
21 A. That passage I've just read was not Dr. Stakic. It was
22 Mr. Kondic.
23 Q. All right. Have you completed the reading?
24 A. From the margin, yes. Now we go back to the main text, Dr. Stakic
25 speaking, quoting: IFOR. Both had a -- something had to be -- to
1 something in this territory or these territories. This is the -- this is
2 the something hour, we. When the Serbs fight for four years and there are
3 no compunctions or something, com something, within they. There are no
4 Krajina Serbs, no Bosnian Serbs, or Serbian Serbs, only Serbs. Karadzic
5 only thinks about Serbs.
6 GP specialising physiotherapy. Stopped specialising because of
7 the war. Now I hope I will finish. During the war, offer in P.
8 Neuropsychiatrists, not like Karadzic, because people went into politics.
9 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: DP6-6.
10 THE WITNESS: New page. He said the Serbs were mad people. It's
11 not a good idea. Vietnam syndrome. That's his lawyer, arrow pointing to
12 the right. If IFOR became upkeep, cannot -- myself talking, cannot read
13 this next bit, photocopy too light. We don't want to go to Sarajevo. I
14 don't miss it. If we have to -- oh. If we have the place, then -- then
15 let them come back, but first we have to settle the Serbs. When a man did
16 to make fire first or for, and the photocopy is too light, time in
17 history, if you did store or stone in the -- it's not for people, it's
18 many -- it means something else. We don't think Prijedor is any different
19 from any other city, because Izetbegovic is making.
20 Vinko Kondic. Arrow pointing to text in a box. Kondic speaking:
21 You have to ask Izetbegovic why. Izetbegovic is making a negative city,
22 negative city of Prijedor. That is why he wants to win again. He got
23 advice from someone.
24 Back to the -- me talking. Back to the main page. Dr. Stakic
25 talking: The same -- some -- I can't read that -- permission for credit.
1 The same -- some permission for credit from the west. We will make a new
2 Petrovac, new Drvar. There are nine reception centres, 2.000 refugees.
3 They didn't have homes with roofs. The Serbs from Omarska. When NATO
4 bombed, was -- that was int. for something. NATO, arrow, shelled this
5 area. Fifteen to 18 refugees in one house.
6 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: DP6-7.
7 THE WITNESS: Do you think that we don't have pain in that village
8 Kozarac? We found 3.500 automatic guns. For whom were they supposed to
9 work? It's very clear that these guns were intended for Serbs, not for
10 hunting Serbs, not for hunting animals. There was a list from the SDA
11 party, a list of who got number of guns. Something -- number of military
12 units. DB, state security police.
13 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Thank you very much for this special effort.
14 THE WITNESS: It's a pleasure, Your Honour, thank you, if it
16 MR. KOUMJIAN: May I have just a moment, Your Honour.
17 [Prosecution counsel confer]
18 MR. KOUMJIAN:
19 Q. Let me just ask you, Mr. Vulliamy: Did you ask Dr. Stakic about
20 the houses that were destroyed along the roads, particularly along the
21 roads of Kozarac?
22 A. I don't think I did, but I think my colleague did, specifically
23 about the houses along -- well, along the road of -- in that road in
24 Kozarac and in the village of Kozarac itself.
25 Q. When you said at one point, and I'm referring to at -- I believe
1 it's 10:03:12, NATO bombed, do you know in what context Dr. Stakic said
3 A. I can't remember. I imagine we must have been talking about the
4 bombing of September 1995. The bombing that ended the war.
5 Q. Do you know if that was at the same time you asked him about the
6 destruction of the houses along the road to Kozarac?
7 A. It could have been but the shorthand isn't clear.
8 Q. Could you review that section of your notes, look at it a second
9 time, and if you have any further insight or not, that's fine. I believe
10 that would be on DP6-6.
11 A. Thanks.
12 Q. The last three lines, several lines.
13 A. The discussion of NATO and the bombing of which I have -- I mean,
14 it's not a complete sentence, it's just some notes of the conversation
15 does immediately precede the passage on Kozarac. I recall there is a
16 question of some kind which is, you know -- he says, "Do you think we
17 don't feel pain?" I think the question may have been, "Do you feel any
18 pain when you see the houses burnt out along the road," but it's not
19 marked in front of me here. But that -- I mean, the conversation about
20 Kozarac follows on immediately from that about the NATO bombing certainly.
21 Q. Okay. Thank you.
22 A. They are connected in that way at least.
23 Q. Pausing for the translation. You indicated Dr. Stakic said at one
24 time that the television pictures were pictures of Serbian prisoners in
25 Muslim camps and it was in the context of that the television pictures of
1 Omarska on the visit in which you were present.
2 A. There's no doubt in my mind or that of my colleague, and I don't
3 think there was any doubt in his mind that we were talking about the
4 pictures that were taken in the Omarska camp during my visit.
5 Q. Did you introduce yourself to Dr. Stakic in 1996 as one of the
6 journalists who had been present and had visited the camp in 1992?
7 A. No, I did not.
8 Q. You indicated that it was evening when you visited Dr. Stakic. Do
9 you recall Dr. Stakic making any remark concerning the time of day?
10 A. Yes, I do, and my colleague and I discussed this afterwards as we
11 left because we were told something to the effect of "It's brave of you to
12 be around here at this time of night," and an ominous remark made about
13 journalists in the area at night.
14 Q. To be clear, who made that remark?
15 A. Dr. Stakic. I think Mr. Kondic made a remark as well. I think it
16 was -- it was -- we were told by both of them that it was time to go soon.
17 Q. Thank you. I want to move on now to play a short video back to
18 1992 and your visit. We talked about the women in the line, and I'd like
19 you to view the following. It's about a minute and a half video. Tell us
20 if you recognise -- this is a new video. It's taken from ERN number
22 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: It may be of assistance if we could have present
23 documents Exhibit S2 and S3 just in case it can assist the witness. It
24 may be put on the ELMO only later, after we have seen the video clip.
25 Thank you.
1 And may I, in the meantime, ask the representative of the
2 Prosecutor's office, please, in order not to create too much confusion, do
3 we have available the same video we had yesterday that we could rewind to
4 this point where we saw in the video on this lining up?
5 MR. KOUMJIAN: It should be --
6 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Yes. It might be helpful because it may be
7 taken on different occasions and, therefore, it should be available,
8 please, immediately after this video.
9 You got the message? Thank you.
10 Please proceed with the video prepared for now.
11 [Videotape played]
12 MR. KOUMJIAN: Stop, please.
13 Q. Mr. Vulliamy, do you recognise the woman in the right foreground
14 of the video?
15 A. I don't think so. Unless it's the ITN -- no. She didn't look
16 like that.
17 Q. Was there a producer type of person with ITN?
18 A. There was a sort of PA lady who usually wore sunglasses, which she
19 isn't here. If it's her, it's not a very flattering -- I mean, I don't
20 recognise her, but I think it might be her.
21 MR. KOUMJIAN: Proceed.
22 [Videotape played]
23 THE WITNESS: Yes, it's her.
24 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Just stop for a moment, please.
25 Can you identify the building to the best of your recollection?
1 THE WITNESS: Yes. That's the police headquarters in -- in, so
2 far as I recognise it, Prijedor.
3 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: And once again to the best of your recollection,
4 this is close or opposed to the Municipal Assembly building?
5 THE WITNESS: It's across the road.
6 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Across the road. Thank you.
7 [Videotape played]
8 MR. KOUMJIAN: That's the end of the tape, Your Honour.
9 Q. Mr. Vulliamy, did you recognise when she turned towards the camera
10 the woman I asked you about earlier?
11 A. Yes. It's the ITN lady, yes. She's got her sunglasses above her
12 head. If I can help -- I'm trying to help as much as I can. I think that
13 maybe one of the entrances shown might be the civic centre itself,
14 actually, if not the building across the road. But this is without a
15 doubt in the same complex, on a square.
16 Q. Another quick question. Go back to 1992, you talked about the
17 battle that you believe was staged on your trip from the Municipal
18 Assembly building --
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. -- To the Omarska camp. You said that there was a 20-minute or so
21 delay while the people from what you called the Crisis Committee conferred
22 for you to get information to leave. Where that battle took place was
23 that before the turn-off to the Omarska camp where you saw the sign or
24 after the turn-off to the Omarska camp?
25 A. It was after the turn-off to the Omarska camp, because the -- the
1 main road leaves Prijedor, and the Omarska turn-off is -- I wouldn't want
2 to be -- I mean, it's roughly four to five miles down the road. And we
3 went past it and then turned off to the right towards Omarska on a series
4 of, as I said yesterday, I think, minor roads, or very minor roads, and
5 that's where this so-called exchange of fire, this what I called a prank
6 took place.
7 Q. When you returned and went and visited at least the gate of the
8 Omarska camp in 1996, did you take the turn-off that you had gone past in
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. And was that a more direct route to the camp?
12 A. Most definitely. It was a short distance to the front gate down
13 from that turn-off, yes, and it was all paved road, properly paved road,
14 with a sort of a bridge before you get to the maintenance to the camp
15 which is very clearly marked Rudnik Omarska, Omarska Mine. We did not go
16 through that gate in 1992.
17 Q. Thank you.
18 MR. KOUMJIAN: I have no further questions on direct examination.
19 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Thank you. The Defence is prepared to start the
20 cross-examination immediately?
21 MR. OSTOJIC: We are, Your Honour.
22 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Then please proceed until five minutes past 11.
23 Cross-examined by Mr. Ostojic:
24 Q. Good morning, Mr. Vulliamy. My name is John Ostojic, and along
25 with Branko Lukic and Danilo Cirkovic, we represent Dr. Milomir Stakic.
1 A. Good morning.
2 Q. We'll just pause and have the usher lower the ELMO a little bit.
3 A. Thanks. Yes, that would be better.
4 Q. I'm going to ask you a few questions this morning in regard to
5 your direct examination and some of the missions you had in 1991 through
6 1996 in Bosnia as well as Croatia in the former Yugoslavia. As before,
7 since you and I have had an opportunity to have an exchange --
8 THE INTERPRETER: Please slow down and repeat. Thank you.
9 MR. OSTOJIC: My apologies to the interpreter.
10 Q. You and I have had an opportunity to discuss matters in connection
11 with Prijedor actually four years ago; correct?
12 A. Yes, indeed.
13 Q. And the same rules apply as they did then. I'll be asking the
14 questions and if you can wait and give us your honest and thoughtful
15 answer as you have during the direct examination.
16 A. Of course.
17 Q. If at any time, sir, you don't understand my question, please ask
18 me to clarify and I'll attempt to do my best to clarify the question so
19 that you may fully understand it and give us a complete answer.
20 A. Excellent. Thank you for the guidance.
21 Q. Just a little bit about your background. I know that you have a
22 degree which I think you've identified as a PPE in politics, philosophy,
23 and economics; correct?
24 A. Correct.
25 Q. Is it true, sir, that you do not have any military background or
1 military expertise?
2 A. In service, no. Of warfare, obviously yes.
3 Q. Is it true, sir, also that you have no background in criminal
4 justice or any police-type work?
5 A. It is.
6 Q. Is it true, sir, also --
7 THE INTERPRETER: Please slow down, the interpreters are asking
8 kindly, thank you.
9 MR. OSTOJIC:
10 Q. Is it true, sir, also that you have no political background or
12 A. I've been interested in politics, but I've never been -- I was
13 briefly -- as a student I was a member of the Labour Party which is the
14 party of government in Britain, but I've never been -- held political
15 office of any kind.
16 Q. And, sir, you're not a lawyer, are you?
17 A. I'm not a lawyer, no.
18 Q. And, sir, are you a demographer?
19 A. A demographer?
20 Q. Yes.
21 A. No, I'm not a demographer, no.
22 Q. Have you in preparation for your testimony here in the Stakic
23 matter, did you review any demographic reports or data in connection with
24 the Prijedor municipality relating to the period of 1992?
25 A. Not specifically in connection to any preparation for this case,
1 no, but in -- obviously in my coverage of the war, I had some idea of
2 how -- of the demographic make-up of the area, yes, and of course how it
4 Q. Share with us, if you will, what is it that you reviewed prior to
5 testifying yesterday and today? What materials did you review?
6 A. Pertaining to the demography of Prijedor prior --
7 Q. Pertaining to the case of the OTP versus Dr. Milomir Stakic.
8 A. What did I review. I reviewed the shorthand notes that I have
9 read out this morning, and I reviewed the -- well, I say I reviewed. I
10 read very quickly some typewritten notes that I compiled with the -- my
11 colleague and with -- on the basis of conversation with him and the
12 translator, and I had a look at some of but not all of because there's a
13 lot of it, our previous appointment here in the case of Dr. Kovacevic.
14 But my actual preparation has been -- I mean -- sorry, if it's relevant,
15 but it's been a very busy week in New York and I have not had an enormous
16 amount of time to prepare specifically, but I'm certainly happy to answer
17 any questions about Prijedor and demography because I obviously studied
18 that earlier.
19 Q. We won't limit it just to demography, but my question is this: In
20 preparation for your testimony here, have you had an opportunity to review
21 your testimony in the Dusko Tadic case wherein you testified on or about
22 June 6th through 7th of 1996?
23 A. I've had -- I've looked at some of it, yes. To be honest, I
24 haven't had time to read the whole thing.
25 Q. You don't have to preface your comments by telling me you're
1 honest. I presume all your answers will be honest and truthful, okay?
2 A. It was a manner of speaking.
3 Q. Did you, sir, have an opportunity to review prior to your
4 testimony here in this matter the testimony you gave on April 24th, 1998,
5 which was the OTP against General Blaskic?
6 A. I haven't looked at that, no.
7 Q. Did you, sir, and I think you told us that, in part review the
8 testimony you gave from July 15th through July 18th, 1998, in the OTP
9 versus Dr. Kovacevic case?
10 A. I don't recall the exact dates but I've had a chance to look at
11 some of that testimony but I haven't read it all.
12 Q. Did you, sir, have an opportunity --
13 THE INTERPRETER: Please slow down.
14 MR. OSTOJIC:
15 Q. Did you, sir, have an opportunity to review your testimony of last
16 year, June 1, 2001, in the OTP versus Sikirica case or otherwise known as
17 the Keraterm case?
18 A. No, I've never seen my testimony in that case. It was, as I
19 recall, very brief.
20 Q. In your preparation for testifying here did you have the
21 opportunity to review the statement that you gave to the ICTY on or about
22 March 25th through 28th, 1997?
23 A. Can you help me with what that was about? I think the answer is
24 no but just in case.
25 Q. Do you recall giving a statement --
1 A. Could you -- a statement. Is that in Blaskic?
2 Q. Do you recall, sir, whether you ever gave a statement to
3 representatives of the ICTY in connection with trials that may be
4 proceeding before this Tribunal?
5 A. Yes. I've given statements to the Tribunal before, certainly.
6 Q. How many?
7 A. I was interviewed in the fall of 1995 in the case of Tadic. I
8 gave a statement at some date - I don't recall exactly when it was - in
9 the case of General Blaskic, and I was called to testify also in the case
10 of Dr. Kovacevic, but I'm not sure which one you're referring to at the
11 moment, and I did not give a statement in the case of the Keraterm which
12 you mentioned. I was called by the Defence, in fact.
13 Q. I beg to differ with you on that, sir, because I was in that case
14 and you were actually called by the Prosecutor. And the Defence, one
15 limited defendant had an opportunity to cross-examine you last year on
16 June 2001. But be that as it may, I'm sure we could get a stipulation
17 from --
18 A. Certainly, but I --
19 MR. KOUMJIAN: I would be happy to stipulate that the witness was
20 called subject to 92 bis subject only to cross-examination by the Defence
21 and redirect by the Prosecution.
22 MR. OSTOJIC:
23 Q. Do you, sir, known a gentleman by the name of Robert Donia?
24 A. Not to my recollection.
25 Q. Tell me, as a foreign correspondent, can you describe for me what
1 your duties were in 1992?
2 A. Yes. I was -- in 1992, the war in Croatia was recently over, and
3 I went back after the agreement that ended that war to try and continue
4 my -- my duties in Italy, working mostly on the Mafia, and corruption
5 scandals at that time. And then the conflict in Bosnia began. I was
6 briefly in Sarajevo, but my duties began really with the assignment that I
7 described yesterday, and I would call that my first real engagement or
8 assignment and -- in the conflict in Bosnia-Herzegovina. And from then
9 on, my duties were to form part of a roster covering that conflict, which
10 later developed into, as it were, a sort of branch conflict between the
11 government army and Croatian forces, Bosnian Croatian forces, and my
12 duties were to form part of that roster and to try as best I could to
13 service the newspaper from Italy, which I didn't do very much for obvious
15 Q. Right and I understand that. Thank you. My question really as I
16 asked you four years ago, your duty as a journalist, sir, is to report the
17 facts regardless of what assignment you are given; correct?
18 A. Oh, yes.
19 Q. And your duties are not, sir, to distort the facts are they?
20 A. No.
21 Q. In fact it would be a violation of journalistic ethics, would it
23 A. It would certainly not be very good reporting.
24 Q. You don't think it's a violation of ethics?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. You think that a journalist should embellish facts those upon
2 which he learns or obtains while on a mission, if you will?
3 A. No.
4 Q. Why not?
5 A. Because you don't need to. Facts would speak for themselves.
6 Q. Let me ask you --
7 A. As I said, it's not very good ethical practice. Bad ethical
9 Q. Let me just go on with one more question on this ethical practice.
10 Is it ethically appropriate or proper for a journalist to take quotes from
11 one person and attribute it to another?
12 A. No, that would not be a good idea.
13 Q. Is not just a good idea?
14 A. No, that's not right.
15 Q. It's a violation of everything that you were taught, all the
16 training that you obtained and all the experience that you have as a
17 journalist as a foreign correspondent, correct?
18 A. It would be a violation of those things, yeah.
19 Q. And when you interview people as a journalist, do you have any
20 duties and obligations to people that you're interviewing?
21 A. There are obligations. If you are told something is off the
22 record, then you are obliged that it be off the record. That's as far as
23 I would say. Otherwise, there are no hard and fast rules. You have
24 obligations to write down, to the best your ability, what they say and to
25 report it, certainly, but I'm not quite sure what you mean by
1 duties -- when you interview -- in terms of introductions and stuff like
2 that or what? I mean -- you say -- you're saying what are the obligations
3 when you interview somebody. To record what they say and to publish it to
4 the best your ability accurately and to -- and to put off the record
5 things that are clearly labelled by the interviewee as being off the
7 Q. Is there an obligation by a journalist, sir, to identify
8 themselves to witnesses or potential defendants in a war crimes tribunal
9 such as you -- when you interviewed Dr. Kovacevic, Dr. Stakic, Major
10 Milutinovic, and Professor Koljevic in February of 1996?
11 A. Not if you feel that by doing so you're putting yourself in
13 Q. And do you recall making that decision deliberately?
14 A. I recall thinking that it would not be advisable since I was in
15 that territory without permission. I had had some bad experiences and did
16 not feel that I was persona grata in Prijedor.
17 Q. Help me understand this in connection with journalists. When you
18 do an interview you keep what's known as contemporaneous notes; correct?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Those contemporaneous notes are then transformed into what's known
21 as an aide-memoire?
22 A. It's not important but yes, if other reporters are present, then
23 you'll match up the notes because as I explained earlier, what you will
24 have on the page is not always an exact transcription of every word said.
25 Q. And after your aide-memoire it becomes into what is known as your
1 published work; correct?
2 A. Sometimes. Not always. It depends -- it depends on the
3 circumstances. It depends on whether it's a press conference and there
4 are 20 notebooks involved or it's -- it's -- sometimes, yes. Quite often.
5 Q. Just so you can be clear, Mr. Vulliamy, I'm pausing sometimes so
6 the translation and the various languages can get complete.
7 A. That's fine.
8 Q. It's not a hesitancy nor do I have any questions about your
9 answers. Just so you know that the pause may be indicative of that.
10 A. That's fine.
11 Q. Let's try to put that in context. Contemporaneous notes,
12 aide-memoirs, and the ultimate article. In fact, on August of 1992,
13 specifically August 5th, when you visited the Omarska and Trnopolje camps,
14 you shared with us that the following day immediately upon leaving
15 Trnopolje went to Belgrade. The next day you wrote what essentially was
16 an article that was ultimately published on August 7th, 1992; correct?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Of the three items that we mentioned, contemporaneous notes,
19 aide-memoirs and the article, do you consider any one more or less
20 trustworthy or reliable?
21 A. It's a long time since I saw the actual article. I would say that
22 the notes were the more reliable, but the article might have things in it
23 that perhaps in that case ITN had recorded or that my two colleagues who
24 you saw on the television yesterday might have put in their books. So in
25 that respect, the article could be more reliable inasmuch as I keep trying
1 to stress that what you put in your book is the fastest you can or the
2 best you can write stuff down. If there are two or three of you and
3 there's an interpreter, you will go over the stuff. So in that respect,
4 the article could be closer to what is actually intended to be said.
5 Q. Let me switch to the February 1996 meeting that you had with Dr.
6 Kovacevic, Dr. Stakic, and I think also Major Milutinovic, as well as
7 Professor Koljevic, did you not?
8 A. Yes, I met all those gentlemen, yeah.
9 MR. KOUMJIAN: Your Honour, perhaps the witness could also be
10 asked to pause before he answers so the interpreters can catch up and also
11 so that two speakers do not interrupt each other. So if you could just
12 pause, Mr. Vulliamy, a few seconds after the question.
13 THE WITNESS: Oh, yeah. Certainly. Sorry.
14 MR. OSTOJIC:
15 Q. You explained or I thought I understood your testimony yesterday
16 that you went back to the Prijedor area in order to do a follow-up story
17 in connection with the events that transpired in August of 1992; correct?
18 A. Yes. It was part of the series I described that was commissioned
19 in order to retrace some of the steps in the war after its conclusion at
20 the Dayton Peace Accords, and it was with reference to that that I went.
21 And of course this call to Prijedor, as I think should be clear, was with
22 reference back to the -- I thought and I think other people thought to be
23 the important day of August the 5th, 1992.
24 Q. I think, as you described previously in your testimony, it was
25 part professional, part personal that you went back in February of 1996;
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Now, so that I could have the context of the purpose for which you
4 went to this February 1996 meeting, is it true, sir, that prior to that
5 meeting you had met with the OTP trial attorney Mike Keegan who was the
6 legal attorney against Dr. Kovacevic in his trial in 1998?
7 A. Yes. I'd been summoned to be a witness in that case.
8 Q. You were summoned before February of 1996 to be a witness against
9 Dr. Kovacevic?
10 A. Well, I was told that I was going to be a witness. I don't know
11 quite what the -- or was likely to be a witness. Well, no. I can
12 certainly help you with this.
13 I was first interviewed in April 1995, long before, generally, and
14 then sometime later that year I was told I would be a witness in the
15 trial. So obviously I talked to the OTP.
16 Q. Do you have any idea that the indictment against Dr. Kovacevic was
17 not public at that time in 1995 or 1996? Are you aware of that?
18 MR. KOUMJIAN: Excuse me. A question --
19 A. I didn't even know if there was --
20 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: First please. Now, I think it's necessary for
21 me to recall. Slow down and wait and pause before question and answer.
22 MR. KOUMJIAN: May I make an objection? The question is
23 misleading. It says: "Are you aware that the indictment was not public?"
24 In fact there was no indictment at that time. The indictment had not yet
25 been written. So I think saying it was not public would be misleading to
1 the witness and the Court.
2 MR. OSTOJIC: Well, if I can respond, Your Honour.
3 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Please.
4 MR. OSTOJIC: Quite frankly, if we look at the answer the witness
5 gave, I think it was quite clear. He is under oath. He was well aware of
6 what the OTP at that time was preparing and had completed whether
7 privately or publicly, which is namely the indictment against
8 Dr. Kovacevic, Simo Drljaca, and Dr. Milomir Stakic, which we have before
10 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: I think we don't have to go into further
11 details. Your question was quite clear. You spoke about an indictment
12 against Dr. Kovacevic, and we are all aware that at that point in time
13 there was none, such an indictment, and therefore, please, may I ask you
14 to be concrete and detailed in your question. Thank you.
15 MR. OSTOJIC:
16 Q. Mr. Vulliamy, in fact, in April of 1995, is it true that you were
17 visited in your offices in Washington, DC by Michael Keegan, correct?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. And share with me so that I have it right, for what purpose?
20 A. At the time he -- he said he was investigating the case of Dusko
21 Tadic and wanted to hear from me because the case as reported to me, I'd
22 never heard of Dusko Tadic then, focused on Omarska and Trnopolje,
23 particularly Trnopolje, I believe, and he wanted to talk to me.
24 Q. Well, did he ask you, sir, that he wanted you to be possibly an
25 expert witness for him?
1 A. I don't remember whether he asked me then. I think he might have
2 done, but it wasn't confirmed in that conversation.
3 Q. And for what reason -- and for what reason, sir, to the best of
4 your recollection was it that Mr. Keegan wanted you to be an expert
6 MR. KOUMJIAN: Objection, because the witness did not state
7 Mr. Keegan wanted him to be expert witness. That's counsel's words.
8 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Sustained.
9 MR. OSTOJIC:
10 Q. Do you recall, Mr. Vulliamy, that in fact Mr. Keegan asked you to
11 be an expert witness on the issues of widespread and systematic patterns
12 in the Prijedor area in 1992?
13 A. Yes. I recall that that was my sort of label, if you like, the
14 widespread and systematic thing. But I don't know when --
15 Q. Who --
16 A. Sorry?
17 Q. Who gave you that label?
18 A. I suppose it must have been the Prosecutors, the Prosecution. It
19 was not a term that I was familiar with until I heard it during
20 my -- during briefing for the case.
21 Q. And subsequent to the April 1995 meeting that you had --
22 A. Sorry. Correction. I was aware of it academically but not in
23 that case.
24 Q. I want to concentrate on the time period from April 1995 up until
25 the time that you interviewed Dr. Stakic, among others. On how many
1 occasions had you then met with the OTP or any of their representatives?
2 A. Once certainly. I came over for what was their sort of the main
3 consultation on the Tadic case. It was sometime during the fall or early
4 winter of 1995. It was cold. That's my memory. And that was -- if I
5 hadn't been told I was going to be a witness before in the Tadic case, I
6 was told it then.
7 Q. And sometime in the fall of 1995. At any time from that period up
8 until the time of February of 1996, had you met with the Office of the
9 Prosecutor in connection with the Prijedor area?
10 A. Well, the meeting that I've just mentioned in the fall of 1995 did
11 focus on the Prijedor area because the Tadic case focused on the -- on the
12 camps. So that was when that we did talk about the Prijedor area.
13 Q. We have those two meetings, the April 1995 meeting, the fall 1995
14 meeting, and my question to you, sir, is subsequent to that fall 1995
15 meeting, up until February 1996, had you had any contact, correspondence
16 or communication with the OTP in connection with the Prijedor area?
17 A. Yes. I would have spoken, but I don't -- can't remember when,
18 with Mr. Keegan by phone, and I -- but I don't think I came to The Hague,
19 pertaining to the Tadic case and also pertaining to a separate set of
20 allegations being made about the Trnopolje camp, in London.
21 Q. The decision for your editor to agree to send you back in the
22 Bosnian area, Prijedor mainly, was made when again?
23 A. Around December 1996 it would have been just after the Dayton
24 agreement. Around Christmas time, when we were planning the series.
25 Q. You mean December 1995?
1 A. I'm sorry, I correct myself and you're absolutely right. 1995,
3 Q. It couldn't have been after the meeting, right? The decision to
4 go back couldn't have been made after the events where you went there and
5 interviewed the individuals; correct?
6 A. No. Thank you for the correction. December 1995, I said just
7 after the Dayton Agreement which was signed, I think, in mid-December
9 Q. Did you, at any time, sir, consult with members of the OTP to
10 determine what questions you should ask of Dr. Kovacevic or Dr. Stakic?
11 A. No. They didn't know I was going to see them.
12 Q. And is it your testimony, sir, that at no time Michael Keegan or
13 any representatives from the OTP knew, despite having a meeting with them
14 in April of 1995 and in the fall of 1995 and having telephone
15 communication was then prior to February 1996, that you didn't tell
16 Mr. Keegan that you were going to interview Dr. Kovacevic or Dr. Stakic?
17 A. I did not, as you put it, tell Mr. Keegan I was going to interview
18 those men, nor did he know I was going to interview those men, nor did I
19 know that I was going to interview those men.
20 Q. So immediately after your interview in February 1996, what you
21 did, sir, was in fact you took your disk from your computer with a cover
22 letter and you shipped it to Mr. Keegan; correct?
23 A. I did send a disk to Mr. Keegan because I thought that what we had
24 come across in those interviews was extremely relevant to the case in
25 which I was called. I was trying to help the Tribunal. The case I was
1 called in to testify concentrated on Omarska and Trnopolje and what
2 happened in the Prijedor area, and I presume they -- it would be of
4 Q. And did you retain a copy of the letter or correspondence that
5 accompanied the disk that you sent to Mr. Keegan immediately after the
6 meeting you had in February of 1996 with, among others, Dr. Stakic?
7 A. No. It would have been, and I don't remember what it was, but it
8 would have been little more than a card or something.
9 Q. Just for my edification, do you have expertise on the issues
10 relating to widespread and systematic patterns that may have occurred in
11 or around the Prijedor area in 1992, May through September?
12 MR. KOUMJIAN: Objection. Irrelevant to this case.
13 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: I wouldn't say irrelevant to this case, but the
14 witness is not a lawyer and, therefore, sustained.
15 MR. OSTOJIC:
16 Q. Do you recall, sir, if we can go back for a moment to the April 7,
17 1992 article that you wrote, do you recall if you, in that article, gave
18 any opinions or comments relating to whether or not the issues from the
19 camps, Omarska and Trnopolje specifically, were not systematic and were
20 not widespread?
21 A. I'm sorry, could I just ask you to say which article it was? You
22 gave me a date and I'm not sure which one you're talking about.
23 Q. How many articles did you write on August 7, 1992?
24 A. Oh --
25 Q. From Belgrade immediately upon interviewing individuals in the
1 Omarska and Trnopolje camps?
2 A. I'm sorry. I know --
3 THE INTERPRETER: Could you please repeat your question.
4 MR. OSTOJIC:
5 Q. Mr. Vulliamy, if I can interrupt you. I was asked by the
6 interpreters to repeat the question.
7 MR. OSTOJIC: So if I may, Your Honour.
8 Q. Mr. Vulliamy, do you recall whether or not in your article of
9 August 7, 1992, whether you gave an opinion or impression that in fact
10 there was not a systematic pattern and there was no widespread attack
11 relating to the Prijedor area or region, namely from April through
12 September 1992?
13 A. If I'd read the article more recently, I would be of more
14 assistance, but to the best of my recollection, I think the article gave a
15 sense of destruction in the area. If you can produce it. I certainly
16 wanted to try and reflect that there was tragic movement of refugees on
17 both sides. But I think that we can go -- I can't remember that article,
18 by think there's no doubt that my -- that that article and those that
19 appeared in the very few weeks after it would have given the impression of
20 a widespread - to use your term and not mine - a widespread and systematic
21 persecution, yes.
22 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: I think it not take much time before the Defence
23 prepares or provides us with this article.
24 MR. OSTOJIC: I have it right here.
25 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Please. If it could be distributed in order to
1 enable the parties and the Judges to read this article during the break
2 and immediately after the distribution by the usher we will have the
3 break, but please, first distribute.
4 Thank you. I think we should, in principle, proceed this way in
5 order to facilitate the work, indeed it's the work of the witness, as it
6 was done in the examination-in-chief. We have this document now
7 available, but it's necessary to have a break now, and we will continue at
9 MR. KOUMJIAN: Can I may one request? I think it would be fair to
10 let the witness to have a copy of the article to review.
11 MR. OSTOJIC: I would like to be heard on that if I may, Your
12 Honour. This witness has testified under oath about some amazingly
13 specific recollections that he claims that he has. He gives us the
14 background as having won the British Pulitzer Prize relating to this
15 activities and his activities on August 5, 1992. This witness should tell
16 us if he can't recall the items that he states in his article and then
17 we'll do and proceed one of two ways which I think has been widely
18 accepted here. One, we can impeach him on it if he tells us different, or
19 two, we would refresh his recollection on items that he claims he does not
20 recall at this time. His testimony yesterday, Your Honour, without
21 summarising it, is being called in question specifically. This article he
22 wrote we hope will clarify those points, but I think it would be unfair
23 for the cross, unfair for the Defence, to have this witness now become
24 what we would coin educated on his very own work. Either he has a
25 recollection or he doesn't. If he does, we'd like to inquire about it.
1 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: I think the witness had the opportunity to
2 discuss these issues and he told us, no doubt, it's extremely difficult
3 for all of us to recollect issues in 1992, and it's only fair after you
4 have, as you did already, tried out whether or not Mr. Vulliamy is able,
5 to the best his recollection, to tell us what he wrote in this article to
6 present now this document. We did this earlier, and I think it's
7 balancing the interests of the parties. The OTP proceeded this way, and I
8 think the Defence should do it in the same way. But nevertheless, it's
9 mandatory to have the break now until 11.35.
10 --- Recess taken at 11.08 a.m.
11 --- On resuming at 11.36 a.m.
12 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Please proceed with the cross-examination.
13 MR. OSTOJIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
14 Q. Mr. Vulliamy, having had the opportunity to review the article
15 during the break --
16 A. I haven't actually, but I've got it in front of me and I'll
17 certainly --
18 Q. There's a lot that you wrote in this article of August 7, 1992.
19 I'm going to only just highlight so I can complete this one area relating
20 to widespread and systematic patterns and just so that I can obtain from
21 you what is it that you mean in the article. The article we'll hopefully
22 come back to at a later time when we discuss issues of who was or was not
23 in control of the meeting that you attended on April 5, 1992, what it is
24 that you observed and learned during your visits to both Omarska and
25 Trnopolje on October 5, 1992. But for our purposes now, I'm going to
1 direct your attention specifically, if I may, to the third page of the
2 article which on the top right-hand corner it says page 3 of 7.
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Last paragraph on that page. Second sentence in that last
5 paragraph, it states: "And although there was no visible evidence of
6 serious violence, let alone systematic extermination, inside the aluminum
7 shed is something it was worth them breaking Dr. Karadzic's promise to
8 avoid exposing." Do you see that?
9 A. Do I, yes.
10 Q. This is your article, is it not?
11 A. It is.
12 Q. When you use the word "systematic," what are you referring to?
13 A. I'm saying that we didn't see any systematic extermination, by
14 which I mean mass killing of individuals, that day in the camp before our
16 Q. And did you before your eyes also, sir, note that there was no
17 visible evidence of serious violence?
18 A. During our very brief and restricted visit to Omarska that day, as
19 I think I've already said and it's on the television, we did not get to
20 see ourselves any -- well, I mentioned the wound, but I wouldn't call that
21 systematic extermination. I didn't see any systematic extermination and
22 that's what I'm saying here, but I think I go on to qualify that we had
23 our suspicions about what was going on in the hut that they refused to
24 allows us into.
25 Q. Well, let me turn to the issue of "widespread," since the two seem
1 at time to go hand-in-hand. If you could turn to page 6 of 7 of your same
2 article, specifically paragraph 2 within that article.
3 Yesterday, you were kind enough to share with the OTP your view of
4 various homes that were either shelled or burned, as you claimed. Within
5 this paragraph, sir, and just tell me if it's correct, you write: "But
6 down the road are other Muslim villages intact, peasants calmly bringing
7 in the hay."
8 You didn't tell us yesterday that during your trip from Pale
9 through Banja Luka to Prijedor that you saw Muslim villages that were
10 intact; correct?
11 A. No. This is a reference to the houses that I think I did mention
12 outside which they were hanging white sheets or flags which, if it wasn't
13 explained to us then, I now know to mean that they were awaiting
15 Q. Is it true, sir, that there were more, as you state in your
16 article, not only homes but villages during your route that were
17 completely intact prior to your arriving to Prijedor on August 5, 1992?
18 A. I mean, if I can help best by going sort of town by town as I best
19 recall. In Bijeljina, which is quite a large place, mostly -- the house
20 were mostly intact that we saw. In a place called Brcko, the bit of town
21 that we went through at least was very -- for the most part destroyed.
22 And a place called Derventa, I recall there was some damage but not
23 complete. And of course Kozarac I've already described.
24 Q. Help me with this: In Trnopolje, sir, when you visited it, is it
25 true that there were women and children there as well?
1 A. In the Trnopolje camp, yes. Yes. Oh, yes.
2 Q. And in fact, your article references that there were women and
3 children there; correct?
4 A. I --
5 Q. Same page, page 4 of 7?
6 A. By the way, I didn't get this article during the break, so if
7 you'll forgive me for taking counsel's cue and finding bits that he refers
8 to. But there were women and children in Trnopolje, to be sure.
9 Q. And you recall interviewing both women, children, and men to
10 determine that there was no violence, as you state at the bottom of page 4
11 of 7, the last paragraph that "'there was no violence against us, just hot
12 and smelly,' adds her husband."
13 A. Yes. That's what one person said.
14 Q. Did you write in your article that you don't believe the person
15 that said that?
16 A. I don't -- not -- I don't think so, no.
17 Q. You also, on a different section in your article here, page 2 of
18 7, reference a gentleman by the name of Elezovic. Do you see that?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Does that gentleman at any time indicate to you whether there was
21 any violence or harm done to him as a result of his detention in the
22 Omarska or Trnopolje camp?
23 A. Well, he says it himself. "Personally, nobody touched me." But I
24 certainly don't think that this man was in very good physical condition in
25 terms of his weight and so on.
1 Q. Of course, in fact --
2 A. But that's what he said, and that's what I wrote down.
3 Q. And you recall that ten years later, that he was not in good
4 condition. But in your article, on the fourth -- sixth paragraph, you
5 state your own impression, your own observation, you state: "He shows no
6 signs of beatings." Do you not?
7 A. I do. Let me just have a look. Yes, it's there. And he --
8 Q. Let me ask you this --
9 A. If I wrote it, this man did not.
10 Q. Let me ask you this: When you gave the interviews which gave you
11 some acclaim, if I may say so, and was the basis or foundation, if you
12 will, of some of the awards that you received subsequent to that, did you
13 include any of that in the interviews you gave where the public speeches
14 you were giving related to Omarska and Trnopolje in August of 1992?
15 A. I did not quote this man, as I recall, neither by name nor by
16 quotation. By the time I was talking publicly in the way that you
17 describe, I had quite quickly found out quite a lot more about Omarska and
18 what was going on in Omarska from people who had walked the road that I
19 described yesterday, and certainly -- well, this man has -- shows no signs
20 of beating nor did he, nor did some -- or most of those in the canteen.
21 But I was certainly not prepared to say in public that Omarska was a
22 place, given what I subsequently learnt, in which people are left alone.
23 Q. May I --
24 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: I -- may I just ask again you to slow down.
25 MR. OSTOJIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
1 Q. Did you at any time call Penny Marshall who was giving interviews
2 for ITN or other newscasters to tell them that, in fact, apart from the
3 undernourishment and the humiliation of the drill of the individuals that
4 you saw at Omarska camp on August 5th, 1992, none of the 80 inmates, as
5 you call them, showed signs of violence or beating?
6 A. I don't recall any particular details of conversations with Penny
7 Marshall, and I -- if I understand your question, I don't think, as I
8 know, I don't -- as I recall, I don't think that we would have gone over
9 the fact that none of the people we saw showed signs of beating because,
10 as I've said and as you've said, they didn't.
11 As regards public comments made since that time, I have researched
12 Omarska more than I was able to do certainly that day, and have found it a
13 place in which many people were very seriously abused.
14 Q. I'm just interested to know what your impressions were on August
15 5, 1992. And since we have to article that you wrote two days later,
16 essentially contemporaneous, if you will, with the events that transpired
17 on that day, you write on page 2 of that same article that very
18 conclusion, that based upon your observation and your impressions, you
19 could not see and were unable to determine whether any of the inmates, in
20 fact, were abused, beaten, or in any way violently treated; correct?
21 A. Yes. I think we've seen yesterday that we -- that our access to
22 the camp was extremely limited and restricted, and we were shown the
23 canteen area only. We were then taken upstairs to an office complex,
24 treated to a long briefing, and then when we tried to get into other parts
25 of the camp, we were basically bundled out. And it's true that none of
1 the people we saw or, rather, we were shown showed any signs of beating,
2 apart from one.
3 Q. Now, your visit, if you will, to the Trnopolje camp was obviously
4 less restrictive; correct? You were able to walk around. And in fact
5 there was one detainee who took you off to the side and showed you the
6 interior of one of the buildings within the Trnopolje complex or compound;
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. So you were able to formulate at that time your impressions of the
10 Trnopolje camp, were you not?
11 A. Yes. I mean, not unlimited, but I formulated an impression of the
12 Trnopolje camp, yes.
13 Q. Did you not, sir, write in this article on August 7thg, 1992,
14 formulate your opinion and impression that in fact Trnopolje camp was not
15 a "concentration camp"?
16 A. Well, I don't know how much the Court wants to get into the
17 semantics of the word "concentration camp." I, at the time, did not want
18 to use the word, and I've written this before, because the next day
19 connections were being made and the connotations of that word, I thought,
20 were being misused.
21 In subsequently talking about it, I have gone back over the
22 history of the term, dating back principally to South Africa at the
23 beginning of this century, and have come to the conclusion that given that
24 it was a place where people were collected for enforced deportation, that
25 it was not a bad -- it is a usable term, if not the term.
1 Q. In fact, don't you conclude, sir, that the very use of the word
2 "concentration" by way of definition is a collection of people within a
3 specific area and that the use of the term "concentration camp" is not in
4 any way related to what history has shown us from World War II, namely
5 Auschwitz, among other such camps; correct?
6 A. Yes. If we're to talk about the history of the word. The reason
7 I was reticent to use the word at the time with regard to Trnopolje is
8 because I think that in recent history or at least in the last half
9 century, the word has come to mean, wrongly, synonymous with a death camp
10 or an extermination camp. I, in trying to choose my words carefully, went
11 back over the history of the term "concentration camp" which does accord
12 exactly with your definition as first used by the British in South Africa
13 during the Boer war, a rounding up and collection or enforced collection
14 of people prior -- well, in at that case for permanent internment or prior
15 to this enforced deportation in large numbers.
16 Q. You use the word "deportation." Do you have a definition for me
17 of that word?
18 A. Yes. My definition of deportation would be what I described
19 yesterday from my first-hand experience, of people being herded in a
20 convoy from their homes over the mountains at gunpoint.
21 Q. That is your trip that you claim you took on August 17, 1992, up
22 to and through Travnik; correct?
23 A. Yes. That was my firsthand experience. I've obviously spoken to
24 large numbers of people who have different experiences who were deported
25 from the Prijedor area and other areas in Bosnia, Eastern Bosnia and so
2 Q. Let me just so I can understand --
3 A. And other areas of former Yugoslavia, not just Croatians and
4 Muslims but indeed Serbs as well.
5 Q. We'll get to all that in a minute, but just for my limited purpose
6 so I can fully understand your definition of "deportation," your trip that
7 you claim you took on August 17, 1992, it was a voluntary trip that you
8 made. You actually joined the convoy; correct? You snuck in, joined it.
9 A. The trip that I claimed I made and did make on August the 17th was
10 in the case of myself and my colleagues voluntary but it was not voluntary
11 in the case of the several hundred other people on the convoy.
12 Q. So as far as your definition for "deportation," would it have that
13 you were being deported?
14 A. No, I wasn't being deported. I was trying to report deportation.
15 Q. One was a voluntary act by you and your colleague and the others,
16 you're presuming, was an involuntary act; correct?
17 A. One was a professional inquiry, voluntary professional inquiry, if
18 that's the right term.
19 Q. I've never heard the term, but I'll accept it.
20 A. It was in the execution of my profession to inquire into what
21 seemed to be going on in the area and I inferred or, rather, it was made
22 pretty clear from everybody we spoke to during that day and night that so
23 far as they were concerned, their -- the deportation was extremely
24 involuntary. It was enforced.
25 Q. Share with me this: How many people did you interview who were
1 accompanying you with -- on this convoy?
2 A. I really don't know, but during the day and night -- well, during
3 the day obviously fewer people because we were in cars, but we were
4 walking for several hours and would have spoken to, I don't know, 20, 25
6 Q. Out of how many people, sir?
7 A. I thought about 1.600 on the convoy altogether. Then we joined
8 then too when they were looking for parts of -- for space on the floors of
9 gymnasia or schools in Travnik which were already packed full of people
10 who had come the same way, and many were to follow. We spent time during
11 the night interviewing others who had been on the convoy as well. So I'm
12 saying 20, 25, 30. We were chatting during the night with large numbers
13 of people, exchanging their recollections of what had happened to them
14 over the last 24, 48 hours. And their marshalling into the convoy and the
15 reasons why they had left.
16 Q. Thank you. Just going back to the Trnopolje camp, and I apologise
17 if we took a little detour here on this but we'll come back to the issue
18 of what you call deportation a little later today.
19 You, in fact, sir, immediately following your visit on the August
20 5th, 1992, at the Trnopolje camp made a qualitative opinion, if you will,
21 opinion and impression as to how to describe this camp. In fact you state
22 in your article of August 7, 1992 that the camp can be described as
23 something between a civilian prison and a transit camp, do you not?
24 A. If you say so. I can't -- as I say, I apologise to you and the
25 Court. I haven't had a chance to read this during the break, but I'll
1 take it from you, sure.
2 Q. I appreciate that, but just so the record is clear, I'll direct
3 your attention to it if I may. Page 4 of 7, the same paragraph where we
4 were just discussing where you said Trnopolje cannot be called a
5 "concentration camp," and immediately thereafter you identify it or
6 quantify or qualify how it can be described. Do you see that?
7 A. Could you help me by telling me which paragraph is it, sir?
9 Q. The fifth paragraph on that page. We were just discussing it ten
10 minutes ago.
11 A. Yes. Yes. As regards the first sentence, I hope I've covered
12 that. We can go back over it if you'd like. But this was written on a
13 day when I was giving interviews by people who were, I thought, trying to
14 equate the word "concentration camp" with "extermination camp" or "death
15 camp." There was a headline that I particularly thought illustrated this,
16 and it was rather silly, which said "Belsen 92" in one newspaper. That's
17 clearly not what it was so that's why I'm illustrating that.
18 Well, the civilian prison would refer to the fenced-off area in
19 which the prisoners that we saw yesterday on the video, who'd come from
20 Omarska and Trnopolje were being confined in an area, and transit camp
21 would refer to other bits of the camp, some of which we also saw on the
22 video yesterday, to which people had come for a number of reasons, either
23 in flight from attacks on their homes or marshalled in columns and frog
24 marched there, awaiting deportation.
25 Q. In what other areas did you note these transit camps throughout
1 your experience in 1991 through 1996 in Bosnia?
2 A. Well, I mentioned the camp run by the Croatians near the town of
3 Capljina, and I went there twice, and of course Keraterm is mentioned
4 here. I read reports of other camps, but I didn't visit any myself.
5 Q. Earlier today when I started the cross-examination, I asked you
6 about embellishing and distorting facts as a reporter and your obligations
7 to report only the facts and the facts as you saw them. Help me with this
8 if you don't mind, Mr. Vulliamy: Your article, two days later, would you
9 agree with me that it is actually a reliable and trustworthy source
10 depicting what those impressions were that you had and observations that
11 were made on or about August 5, 1992?
12 A. It's the best I could do based on my impressions of that day, yes.
13 Q. And anything subsequent to that such as your testimony in the
14 Tadic case or your testimony in the Blaskic case or your testimony in the
15 Kovacevic case or your testimony in the Sikirica case would all, having
16 come subsequent to this, those are all things that if they're not within
17 this report would be items that you learned from other sources or, as I've
18 identified, being embellishment of the truth or the facts as they truly
19 existed on or about August 5, 1992?
20 A. Well, I -- you're talking about embellishments and distortions. I
21 learned an awful lot about Trnopolje and Omarska after
22 writing -- subsequent to writing this article, certainly.
23 Q. But our focus is here, if I may, with all due respect, is to
24 obtain what your impressions were as of August 5th. Not what you later
25 learned, whether through your discussions with the OTP or books you may
1 have read or other sources that you may have consulted. We're interested
2 to know what the parties did at that given time.
3 Would you agree with me that it is this article and this source
4 which is the most reliable and most trustworthy since it was made
5 contemporaneous, if you will, as you state, with the events that took
6 place less than two days prior?
7 A. Yes. The sources, by the way, that I consulted with were not
8 books and -- so much -- or Prosecutor so much as people who had been in
9 the camps or their relatives.
10 Q. I do know that you interviewed some of these people that were in
11 the camps, but I dare say that in this article where you interviewed two
12 such individuals, specifically Mr. Elezovic and the other individual, you
13 have never mentioned either this conversation with those individuals in
14 any of the five trials that you've given testimony in, isn't that true?
15 A. I don't know, I'm afraid. But if you -- you perhaps reviewed the
16 material more closely than I have. But I can't remember what you -- you
17 asked me two questions at once. I can't remember what the first one was.
18 Q. I'm just waiting for the interpreters to catch up, sir.
19 With respect -- are we ready?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Now, also in this article you identified individuals that at the
22 time you were left with the impression who had responsibility or control,
23 if you will, for access to the Omarska and Trnopolje camp, do you not?
24 A. Yes. If I may answer your question previously, which I didn't
25 answer. Frankly, I -- in remarks I've made subsequently about Omarska and
1 Trnopolje, my belief that we were given pretty short shrift in Omarska has
2 been confirmed, as is the belief that we were shown an unrepresentative
3 group of prisoners. And if I have not mentioned Mr. Elezovic since then,
4 I expect it's because I didn't think that his -- that his remarks were
5 particularly representative of what I subsequently learned was going on in
6 Omarska and which was hidden from us.
7 Q. Now, if I can take you to your journey on -- towards the end of
8 July 1992 up until August 5, 1992, you arrived in Belgrade; correct?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And you also shared with us that immediately prior to that, you
11 were also in Sarajevo; correct?
12 A. Yeah, very briefly. Oh, and, sorry, on -- we were taken to the
13 Serbian side of Sarajevo from Pale to around the hills above the city.
14 Q. Can you please tell me the time frame of that?
15 A. Yes, I can. This was the -- we went from Belgrade to Pale by
16 helicopter on the morning of -- I'm trying to work backwards from the 5th,
17 which is the day, of course, I remember. On the morning of the 3rd. So
18 we would have gone to Sarajevo and the Serbian side and visited the Kula
19 prison and some positions above the city and a military hospital on that
20 afternoon into early evening on the 3rd.
21 Q. So your visit to Kula was actually before your visit to Omarska
22 and Trnopolje? I understood your testimony yesterday to be slightly
23 different. I'm trying to locate the page number of that. It was my
24 understanding, correct me if I'm wrong, Mr. Vulliamy, that it was after
25 the visit to Omarska and Trnopolje, at the insistence of Serbs such as
1 Professor Koljevic, you decided to check to see whether there was any
2 truth or substance to their claim that Serbs were held in detention
3 centres or camps by the Muslims; correct?
4 A. Yes. I'm sorry if there's some confusion. Can I help to clarify?
5 Q. I'm asking you -- please. I'm sure you can.
6 A. Sure. I can quite easily.
7 Q. Let me just ask the question. It might work a little bit better.
8 August 5th we know you're in Omarska and Trnopolje. Prior to that you're
9 in Belgrade approximately July 28 to the 29. We understand your testimony
10 that you took a helicopter from Belgrade to Pale and then ultimately
11 through Banja Luka and arrived at Prijedor municipality. My question to
12 you: Prior to those events, is it true that you were in Sarajevo?
13 A. Prior to when? Sorry.
14 Q. Prior to July 28, 1992?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. And for what purpose?
17 A. To report.
18 Q. On what?
19 A. I went very briefly into the airport. On the siege, the
20 developing siege of the city.
21 Q. So you weren't reporting on any Serb refugees or Serbs who were
22 inmates or prisoners of Muslim detention centres, were you?
23 A. No. If I can just get back to this order of things with reference
24 to your previous question. I notice that you've got us here in Belgrade
25 from the 2nd of July to the 29th, but it wasn't that long. I think it was
1 from the 29th to August the 3rd, visiting some of the other places like
2 Loznica that I went into yesterday.
3 We travelled from, as you said, Belgrade to Pale on the 3rd and
4 went to Kula, which I think it was called Kula, that night, which is where
5 Serbs were holding Muslims in a place that didn't, frankly, concern me
6 very much, relatively speaking. And then it was after going to Omarska
7 and Trnopolje that I thought it was appropriate to -- to -- well, accept
8 and investigate Vice-President Koljevic's allegations about the camps in
9 which the Serbs were being held. And the advice was that the worst of
10 those was at a place called Capljina, and that's the one I went to.
11 Q. Do you remember where that was? Was that a camp that was held by
12 Croatians or a camp that was held by Muslims?
13 A. It was held by a militia called the HOS, and it was in
14 Herzegovina, in the south of the country, and the make-up of the HOS was
15 mixed, actually. It was a Croatian -- I mean, it went under a Croatian,
16 if you like, sort of --
17 Q. Vernacular?
18 A. Yes, thank you. And certainly a Croatian heraldry, but there were
19 a number of Muslims in the HOS for political reasons that I can explain if
20 you like, but it was a mixed militia but under a Croatian, as you say,
21 vernacular or heraldry. And the conditions there, as I said yesterday,
22 were bad. We ran quite a major story on it, pages 1 and 3, entitled
23 "Secrets of the Croat camp."
24 Q. My question though is did you at any time, sir, subsequent to
25 August 5, 1992, did you ever visit any camps that existed that the Muslims
1 were holding Serbian citizens or Serbian inmates?
2 A. No. I didn't go to any other camps after that apart from a second
3 visit to Capljina.
4 Q. So then I don't understand your testimony when you say on August
5 7th, after you met with Vice-President Koljevic you wanted to take him up
6 on his offer. Isn't it true that the Serbs at that time were asking that
7 the international press and foreign journalists such as yourself
8 investigate Muslim controlled detention centres and/or camps to determine
9 how many Serbs may be inmates or prisoners within those camps?
10 A. I can't remember if that was the exact wording. I did try to find
11 a camp where Muslims were holding Serbs in a tunnel, and I'm afraid I
12 can't remember the name of the place but with a map I could. I think it
13 was Tarcin or something. A railway tunnel or a road tunnel. But there
14 was nobody there.
15 Q. In order to verify any of this, did you make an attempt to go to
16 the Celebici camp?
17 A. No, I didn't.
18 Q. Were you aware of the Celebici camp at or about that time where
19 vice-president, Professor Koljevic, would have identified that as one of
20 the camps which at that time held Serbian citizens in a Muslim detention
22 A. I'm certainly aware of Celebici now. If it was on the list, then
23 I would have read the name, but I don't recall reading the name. The ones
24 that were emphasised were Capljina and, as I say, this railway tunnel, and
25 I think the railway tunnel or the road tunnel was called Tarcin, but I
1 would like to check that with a map to get the name or the spelling right.
2 But I did go there to the tunnel, but there was nobody there.
3 Q. You also did not, at any time prior or subsequent to April 5th,
4 1992, visit any detention centres operated and controlled by the Muslims
5 holding Serbian citizens in the area of Bihac, did you?
6 A. I wasn't in Bosnia before April 1992.
7 Q. I always say April. I meant August. My apologies.
8 A. No, I wasn't really in Bosnia before August. I mean, I was there
9 in Sarajevo airport for about 36 hours. The events that we described
10 yesterday was the first real reporting I did in Bosnia.
11 Q. Just help me understand, then. What is it you did after
12 vice-president Professor Koljevic wanted you to go out and verify whether
13 Serbs were held in Muslim detention centres? Was it nothing? Was it
14 very, very limited, or did you actually go out and investigate these
16 A. Well, what is it that I did? I went and did it. I didn't join
17 what I called the media circus going down to Trnopolje and Omarska, and I
18 drove through Hungary or through the day and the best part after night
19 down onto the other side. And the one they seemed most concerned about
20 was this one at Capljina and quite rightly so. The conditions were
21 appalling, and I reported that. Was the access limited? It wasn't --
22 well, yes, it was. We were not allowed to go into and we were whisked
23 past the hangar where they were keeping the women, and that was -- I mean,
24 apart from the general conditions, that was the nub of the story. That's
25 what I did.
1 Q. Now, as a foreign correspondent and journalist, when you were told
2 in the Trnopolje camp of the existence of the Keraterm camp, did you
3 report it anywhere and did you do anything to investigate the existence of
4 that camp?
5 A. No. We went to Belgrade as quickly as we could to file what we
6 already had. And there were reports of a massacre in that camp which I
7 heard about that day, but could not corroborate, could not prove, and
8 quite honestly with an allegation of that size, one is not going to rush
9 into print with it on the basis of one's -- you know, of one or two pieces
10 of testimony. I mean, had he said five people, one might have done so.
11 But, no. We felt that at the end of the August the 5th, and I think our
12 hosts felt, at least they made us feel that it was time to go and to --
13 well, in our case, report what we'd found and in their case I think to get
14 these people out of here.
15 Q. And in fact, the opposite occurred. More people came; correct?
16 A. Yes, by which time, I think, things had changed during the interim
17 period. And I'm talking not from personal experience here, but I believe
18 that from the reporting that I've read, fences had come down, a thing had
19 gone up in English saying Trnopolje Reception Centre, and from the
20 research I've done since that day, I gather that Omarska was if not
21 closed, almost closed down.
22 Q. And a couple years after your visit to the Omarska and Trnopolje
23 camps, you wrote a book; correct?
24 A. I wrote a book in the summer of 1993.
25 Q. And it was published in 1994, was it not?
1 A. Yeah. It was completed before 1994. It was written in -- yeah,
2 in five weeks, published early 1994.
3 Q. Just so that I understand how journalists operate, in fact, within
4 that book you would have a far better memory of the events that transpired
5 on August 5th, 1992, than you would, let's say, today, and you would have
6 made such recordations within that book; correct?
7 A. I would have a better memory because it's closer in time. I would
8 have known more about the places I was writing about because I was writing
9 it a year later and had talked to a lot of people, had been in -- in the
10 area quite a bit. But when I -- or if I ever look at the book now, I know
11 a lot more now than I do then -- than I did then. I mean, I have not left
12 the subject completely alone.
13 Q. I'm particularly interested in things such as identifying
14 individuals who may have been in charge or in control or who may have been
15 chairman of certain meetings that took place August 5th, 1992. Wouldn't
16 you agree with me that within that book, having written it, several or a
17 couple of years after the events, it would have a far more reliable source
18 than your recollection sitting here today as to who may have been the
19 person in charge or responsible of Omarska Detention Centre or Trnopolje
20 camp, would they not?
21 A. I imagine they might probably be the same.
22 Q. And if they're not, which do you, sir, believe are more reliable
23 and trustworthy, one having been written a year to two after the events or
24 your recollection of the events ten years later?
25 A. Well, in anticipation of your questions, I'll say the book is
1 closer to the time, but I know more about the situation now than then.
2 As regards the meeting of 1992, I'll say the book.
3 Q. And similarly, the article that you wrote on August 7th, 1992,
4 having been written only two days from the events which you're here
5 testifying about, August 5th, 1992, that also would, wouldn't you agree,
6 be more reliable and trustworthy as to who was the person that may have
7 been in charge or in control of the detention centres than your testimony
8 here ten years after the event?
9 A. I should think so. The article in -- August 5, 1992, would have
10 been without talking to Penny Marshall and Ian Williams. But it would
11 be -- I don't know what -- we're talking about what I'm saying now, would
12 it be more accurate than what I'm about to say? I don't know what I'm
13 about to say.
14 Q. You testified already about the August 5th, 1992 meeting as to who
15 was in charge of that meeting, did you not?
16 A. Sorry?
17 Q. In fact, you testified about that on several other trials as well;
19 A. I testified about it certainly once, in the trial of, sadly
20 deceased Mr. Kovacevic.
21 Q. Did you not testify about it in the Tadic case where specifically
22 you identified Dr. Stakic as being a person who "nominally" [Realtime
23 transcript read in error "normally"] was involved in the events that
25 A. I don't recall the word "nominally," although it certainly makes
1 sense. And I'm sure I was asked to recall the meeting, the 1992 meeting,
2 in the Tadic trial. It wouldn't make sense if I wasn't.
3 Q. Let me direct your attention, if I may, to the Tadic transcript
4 for the Court and the OTP. But just before I do that, I have a request, I
5 think on line 8 there's a word that's placed in quotes, "normally," and I
6 think it was my question and because I spoke a little too quick, the word
7 should be "nominally". If I could reflect that for the record. And I
8 think the witness incorporating the word in his answer was able to assist
9 us a little bit.
10 A. Yes. Nominally I've got.
11 Q. Direct you go -- directing your attention to the testimony in the
12 Dusko Tadic case, which took place on or about June 6, 1996, specifically
13 page 1460 [Realtime transcript read in error "1416"]. In describing the
14 events relating to Dr. Stakic and those of August 5, 1992, you proceeded
15 to testify that you wanted to go back to see the individuals so that you
16 could interview some of the players that you had met four years later. So
17 you're talking about the reasons why you went back in February of 1996.
18 A. Yeah. And I was -- I was --
19 Q. Just read it for you.
20 A. I was assigned to do that.
21 Q. On line 20 specifically, you state, page 1416: "So I thought
22 would be interesting to go and find him again. I also wanted to find
23 Mr. Stakic, the mayor, the rather bald-headed gentleman who was nominally
24 in charge of the operation, so I set about looking for all three of them."
25 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Sorry, I would be more than happy to follow.
1 You're quoting the 7th of June, 1996, page 1416?
2 MR. OSTOJIC: 1460. 1-4-6-0.
3 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: It appeared on line 22 as 1416.
4 MR. OSTOJIC: My apologies, Your Honour.
5 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Right. Please proceed.
6 MR. OSTOJIC: Thank you.
7 Q. Help me understand what you mean when you use the word
9 A. That he was the man in charge. He was the number one. He was the
11 Q. So "nominal" to you means he's number one; correct?
12 A. He's the top official.
13 Q. Help me with this. During the Kovacevic trial do you remember
14 your testimony that you were of the opinion that relating to the August
15 5th, 1992 meeting that Dr. Kovacevic was the chairman and the man in
17 A. I don't recall it, but certainly Dr. Kovacevic was the man, as it
18 were, in the middle of the table, and he was doing most of the talking.
19 In charge is whether we're talking about numbers of words spoken during a
20 meeting or rank, you could apply it to either or neither.
21 Q. I just want --
22 A. He did most of the talking.
23 Q. I just want to understand, sir, who you felt was the individual
24 who was in charge at the meeting or, as you have coined it previously in
25 your testimony under oath in the Kovacevic case, the chairman of the
2 A. I don't know if I used the word chairman. If I did it would apply
3 to both or neither in a way. One of the gentlemen has the top rank. The
4 other did most of the talking.
5 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Could you please be so kind and direct our
6 attention to the page you're referring to?
7 MR. OSTOJIC: Specifically page 780 and 781 of the Kovacevic
8 transcript. I think it starts to overlap a little.
9 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Please proceed.
10 MR. OSTOJIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
11 Q. In fact, you state -- the question was asked, "during the meeting
12 of August 5th, 1992, did you form an opinion" - this is a question to you,
13 Mr. Vulliamy, four years ago - "did you form an opinion as to who was in
14 charge of the meeting? Who was running the meeting?" Question answered
15 by you as a somewhat respectfully I must say long-winded attempt, you
16 conclude unequivocally that it was Mr. Kovacevic.
17 A. Is that a question or --
18 Q. Is it.
19 A. Well, the -- I don't know if I said unequivocally, and I don't
20 know what the long-winded, roundabout way is, but certainly he did most of
21 the talking.
22 Q. Well, is it now your testimony that the person who was in charge
23 of the meeting and who was running the meeting was in fact Dr. Stakic and
24 not Dr. Kovacevic or does it really make a difference depending upon where
25 you testify, Mr. Vulliamy, and that your opinion changes by the day?
1 A. No, it doesn't. My testimony is that the late Dr. Kovacevic was
2 certainly -- dominated the meeting. He did most of the talking.
3 Questions and answers were directed at him. Mr. Stakic said much less.
4 And my testimony is simply that they were the numbers one and two at that
5 meeting. But I'm not going to change my view of who was making the
6 most -- or making the most contribution to the meeting, nor am I going to
7 change any view I've said or not said about how they were introduced in
8 terms of rank.
9 Q. Mr. Vulliamy, I'm not asking you to change it. I'm asking you
10 simply to reconcile it for me. In 1998, on page 780 of your transcript,
11 under oath, under the penalty of perjury, you were asked who was in charge
12 of that meeting and who was running the meeting. You didn't say, "Oh, it
13 was both Dr. Kovacevic and Dr. Stakic." You in fact said unequivocally
14 that it was Dr. Kovacevic. How can you reconcile the two formulations?
15 I think there's an objection, Mr. Vulliamy.
16 MR. KOUMJIAN: Yes. Your Honour, previously the Court has
17 indicated that to be fair to a witness that an entire answer giving the
18 context be read out. Counsel's really only discussed though he hasn't
19 read out the very last two lines of an answer that he called long-winded
20 but which is about ten lines. And I think it would be only fair to have
21 read out the answer that the witness gave quite a few years ago to be
23 MR. OSTOJIC: I'll do that, Your Honour.
24 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Thank you. Especially with the fact that
25 unfortunately we are not provided with this special testimony. So it also
1 assists our work. Thank you.
2 MR. OSTOJIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
3 Q. Mr. Vulliamy, on page 780 of the Kovacevic trial, on July 15,
4 1998, you were asked by your friend Mr. Keegan, on line 19:
5 "Q. Mr. Vulliamy, during this meeting, did you form an
6 opinion as to who was in charge of the meeting, who was running the
8 Answer, which commences on line 22 of page 708 is always follows:
9 "A. Well, thus far the man doing most of the talking up
10 until this point was, if you like, the chairman of the meeting, or at
11 least he was the one who was making the most pertinent remarks, and I
12 found them interesting remarks because even before we had asked the
13 question, we were talking about concentration camps and now he was
14 defining what we were about to see as not concentration camps but transit
15 camps and talking about British intelligence's failure to identify the
16 Nazi camps in the '40s. I thought we were in the domain."
17 You proceed to say "Sorry to answer your question, 'Mr. Kovacevic'
18 is the answer."
19 You yourself put quotes while giving that answer to Mr. Keegan
20 four years ago that you were unequivocal that you even put quotes on it
21 and said that there was no doubt in answering Mr. Keegan's question as to
22 whether or not you formed an opinion as to who the person was who was in
23 charge of the meeting you found it was Dr. Kovacevic, as you called him
24 Mr. Kovacevic at that time, did you not?
25 A. I didn't say unequivocally as you said I said, and my -- and you
1 called Mr. Keegan a friend. I don't have a social relationship with him.
2 Q. He definitely knows --
3 A. No --
4 Q. Mr. Vulliamy, no. Everybody knows, and you wrote about it, didn't
5 you that in fact you even borrowed one of his suits to testify, did you
7 A. No, I did not.
8 Q. You didn't write about that in any article?
9 A. I needed to borrow a suit to testify because I was brought in
10 court hurriedly and I was in a pair of jeans at the time and the witness
11 order changed. And I borrowed a suit off somebody else actually.
12 Q. Well, anyway, call him whatever you want, your friend or not. I
13 didn't think it was an offensive comment to --
14 A. No. It might give an impression that I think is -- does not
15 describe the situation, that's all.
16 Q. Well, help me with this. Reconcile it for me. Who was in charge
17 on August 5th, 1992 of that meeting in which you attended and of which we
18 saw a seven-minute clip of?
19 A. Well, certainly I'll go -- stand by what I said. We saw on the
20 tape Dr. Kovacevic open the remarks on the film, talk at great length, and
21 we -- I don't know whether it was on the film, but I was interested in all
22 this stuff about concentration camps in the 1940s. He was the man in the
23 middle of the table and he was doing most of the talking. He dominated
24 the meeting.
25 Q. Help me with this. I'm going to try to ask this question. I have
1 to read it: What part of the meeting gave you the impression beyond the
2 fact that he was giving you introductory remarks that he, Dr. Kovacevic,
3 was in control of the meeting?
4 A. Part of the meeting. I mean, as I've said, he talked more than
5 anybody else throughout the whole meeting.
6 Q. All right. Let me compare it to what you said when Mr. Keegan
7 asked you that question during Dr. Kovacevic's trial. That very same
8 question was asked on page 781. Again 781, line 10: "What part of the
9 meeting gave you the impression beyond the fact that he was giving you
10 introductory remarks that he was in control of the meeting?" Your
11 response --
12 A. Oh, I can remember the gesture, if that's what you're going to
14 Q. We'll get to it. We have your answer and we'll get to it. Your
15 answer which starts on line 14 of that same page: "In control of the
16 talking, certainly, yes. I got the impression that he was the man who was
17 opening the proceedings and chairing the meeting, yes.
18 Q. Did he exercise the -- did you note him? For
19 example, on the film exercising control over the conduct of the other
20 participants answer line 20.
21 A. Yes. There's a moment where his boss, Mayor Stakic
22 tries to make a contribution and he, Dr. Kovacevic, shuts him up. Yes, he
23 was delivering this monologue and --"
24 And then you were interrupted by Mr. Keegan at that time.
25 A. Do I remember the gesture when I think Mr. -- Mr. Kovacevic is
1 talking, and I don't remember this that well, but to the best of my
2 recollection and this is, I think, has been shown on a video, so any
3 recollections are coloured by the video which I have seen since and will
4 remember better, as I think -- I think Kovacevic is talking, and I think
5 Stakic tries to come in and he waves his hand and Mr. Stakic stops
6 talking. Yeah, he does shut him up.
7 Q. That at least in 1998 gave you a factor in formulating your
8 impression that there was no doubt Dr. Kovacevic was the man in charge;
10 A. I don't know if I have used the words "in charge." You have, and
11 I think it's somewhere in the questions from the previous trial, I just
12 keep coming back to this: Yes, he opened the meeting. He was sitting at
13 the table. He was, if you like -- I'll say if you set out the table he
14 was in -- the chairman of the board sits in the middle, then he was
15 sitting in the middle. Well, not quite in the middle because there were
16 four of them, and Mr. Stakic was out on the edge. And I'll stand by this,
17 yes. He was the dominant voice in the meeting.
18 Q. He was more than dominant n fact, in your answer you say he was in
19 control of the meeting; correct?
20 A. Well, I would take them to be if not synonymous, in fact pretty
22 Q. In fact you go on to say he was chairman of the meeting, do you
24 A. Well, I said it again today. There are four people along the
25 thing. He's one of the two in the middle. He makes the initial -- sort
1 of, after the argument that I described with Colonel Arsic, he makes the
2 first sort of welcoming or -- actually, it was unwelcoming remarks before
3 Mr. Stakic makes his contribution. He speaks first and he speaks most.
4 Mr. Stakic is his boss. That's really all I can help you with on this.
5 Q. That's fine. And two days after this when you wrote are article
6 on August 7, 1992, you again only identified Dr. Kovacevic as the person
7 who was president of the executive council of Prijedor and is "technically
8 responsible for Omarska and Trnopolje," do you not?
9 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Reference, please.
10 MR. OSTOJIC: Yes, page 6 of 7, 7th paragraph.
11 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Could you please for the transcript read out the
12 entire paragraph. Thank you.
13 MR. OSTOJIC: "Firstly, that of Milan Kovacevic who as president
14 of the executive council of Prijedor is technically responsible for
15 Omarska and Trnopolje. He was born in Jasenovac, the Croatian Ustasha
16 camp, where 750 Serbs and Jews were killed between 1941 and 1945."
17 A. Well, I concede to having made a mistake, because Mr. Kovacevic is
18 not -- was not the president of the executive council of Prijedor, and I
19 don't have my shorthand notes in front of me, but to the best of my
20 recollection, it says "Stakic prez" and then by Kovacevic's name it says
21 "vice-president". But I -- well, I -- you can tell me better if I've got
22 this wrong, but I was given to understand that Mr. Kovacevic was actually
23 the vice-president, and I don't know why it doesn't say that here. I
24 don't think that would have been my error.
25 Q. Well, I don't know about that, but even after that, you state that
1 Dr. Kovacevic was born in the Jasenovac camp, and in fact you subsequently
2 learned, did you not, sir, that that is inaccurate? In fact, your notes
3 that you read to us yesterday from the February 1996 meeting clearly
4 clarify for us that you're wrong on that point as well; right?
5 A. I --
6 Q. He was not born in Jasenovac but only did spend some time there as
7 a minor.
8 A. I don't know which is the truth, actually, because I know and
9 noted that he told us on August the 5th that he had been born in that
10 awful place. And when I went back to see him for the second time, he said
11 that he'd spent some time there as a boy. I don't know which is the
12 exact -- which version is the correct one, but whichever, I found it to be
13 an interesting and indeed moving detail in this article, as you see I call
14 it the Serbian counterargument to the accusations.
15 Q. Do you ever, sir, when you find or learn that, in fact, facts that
16 you wrote in an article or inaccurate or incorrect, do you ever prepare
17 and publish a follow-up article or a subsequent article and identify where
18 those errors may or may not have appeared?
19 A. If -- obviously if there'd been some communication from
20 Mr. Kovacevic to correct this citing of him or in fact indeed any
21 subsequent citing of him, if there are any contacts or corrections made,
22 for instance, if he had written and said "no, well, I wasn't actually born
23 in Jasenovac, but I was taken there as a boy by my aunt," as I later heard
24 then of course we'd publish some kind of correction.
25 Q. Did you ever sent the article to him in a language which he could
1 understand or did you presume he spoke and can read English?
2 A. No.
3 Q. Well, how would you expect him, then, to go ahead and respond to
4 the article?
5 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: The question, including two issues we have only
6 one no. The no is true that you didn't send the article to him.
7 THE WITNESS: No, it's not practice to do so.
8 MR. OSTOJIC: Just so I can clarify if I may, Your Honour.
9 Q. So it's true, Mr. Vulliamy, you did not send Dr. Kovacevic a copy
10 of the August 7th, 1992 article?
11 A. It is true, yes.
12 Q. And as a journalist, as a reporter investigating things such as
13 camps and identifying individuals who, as you put it, are "technically
14 responsible" for certain camps, didn't you yourself have an obligation
15 ethically to determine and confirm that the facts upon which you've
16 printed are reliable and trustworthy?
17 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: This is a very circular question, not to be
19 MR. OSTOJIC: May I move on, Your Honour?
20 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Yes.
21 Q. Help me with this, sir, in the meeting that was taking place on
22 August 5th, 1992, how many people participated or were in that room?
23 A. That's hard to say. Your Honour, I'll have to reflect a bit.
24 There were, for a start, a number of people coming in and out of the room
25 at different points of this long meeting, leaning against the radiator.
1 In particular I remember -- or coming in and out, checking it out,
2 checking the situation out. Some in uniform, some not. But I'm sorry the
3 participants, the principal participants we'll say Mr. Stakic,
4 Mr. Kovacevic, Colonel Arsic, Mr. Drljaca, Mrs. Balaban, the interpreter
5 for ITN, myself, Penny Marshall, Ian Williams, the Bosnian Serb television
6 crew, cameramen and soundmen from ITN, the ITN producer, PA woman. I
7 think somebody else was taking photographs or a film, but I don't know who
8 that might have been. That's -- those are the main participants, and I'm
9 sorry to be long-winded.
10 Q. That's about 20, 25 people? Is that your estimate?
11 A. I don't know how many that is who I've listed, but if we add a few
12 unknown and unnamed to me less than 20. More like 12 to 15 perhaps.
13 Q. Okay. 12 to 15. Now, you had obtained authorisation or at least
14 ITN did to be able to visit Omarska prior to August 5th, 1992, as you
15 described to us yesterday, and then you proceeded to go to Belgrade in
16 order to obtain what kind of documentation so that you could have access
17 to the region?
18 A. ITN and myself were given --
19 Q. And yourself, yes?
20 A. -- Were given a guarantee that we would go to Omarska. We arrived
21 in Belgrade and we got accreditation from the -- the -- the Bosnian Serb
22 press agency had an office in Belgrade. Srna rings a bell, but I'm not
23 certain that that was it and we had to go to their office or a desk in
24 other office, I'm not sure which, and get accreditation there. And I
25 think we probably would have had some sort of accreditation from the
1 federal authorities as well.
2 Q. But was this written accreditation that you obtained?
3 A. Some sort of stamped bit of paper as I recall.
4 Q. Did you retain a copy of those papers that would have accredited
5 you and ITN to be able to go and visit Omarska camp?
6 A. No, we would have shown it to authorities at various checkpoints.
7 I don't have it now.
8 Q. Help me with this: Who decided that you should meet with the
9 local representatives of the Prijedor municipality prior to being taken to
10 Omarska camp?
11 A. I don't know.
12 Q. You identified yesterday in your testimony that you were told that
13 you were going to meet individuals and what you identify as being "a
14 Crisis Committee." The Court asked you a follow-up question on that. My
15 question to you with respect to that issue is: Who is the individual who
16 identified these members that you were about to visit as being "Crisis
17 Committee" members?
18 A. I this was it the police chief Mr. Drljaca when we were coming up
19 the stairs first used the term. I will concede that it could have been
20 Crisis Staff or Crisis Committee. I really can't remember which it was,
21 but it was crisis whatever. And I think the term was first used by
22 Mr. Drljaca. In answer to your previous question, I should say I don't
23 know who decided that we should meet with them, but it seemed that we were
24 being passed down a chain of command. Karadzic, Koljevic, and it was
25 logical that this was the sort of next step. And of course
1 Major Milutinovic from Banja Luka knew where we were going, but I don't
2 know if he had decided that that's where we were going.
3 Q. Well, do you know if in the contemporaneous notes that you kept
4 relating to the August 5, 1992 meeting or anywhere in the video captions
5 that we've seen of the meeting on August 5, 1992, whether at any time any
6 individual identifies this group of men as being members of a "Crisis
7 Committee"? Does it appear in your notes anywhere?
8 A. Not that I recall from yesterday.
9 Q. Does it appear anywhere on the video that you reviewed prior to
10 testifying and including those videos that you viewed yesterday in open
12 A. I don't know. That's what -- I don't know if it's on the video.
13 We would have been introduced at a time when I -- you know, the notebook
14 probably wasn't even open.
15 Q. Quite frankly, Mr. Vulliamy, I did read your prior testimony, and
16 I'm hard pressed to find anywhere within that testimony that the deceased,
17 Simo Drljaca, or any individual has identified you, identified those
18 people as being members of a "Crisis Committee." My question to you is:
19 Are you telling us 10 years later that you have a specific and vivid
20 recollection of the late Simo Drljaca telling you that this was a "Crisis
22 A. No. I'm telling you what I've already said. One is that I think
23 it was him on the way up the stairs who first used the term, and it's not
24 that vivid because I can't remember whether it was "Crisis Committee"
25 or - that was my recollection - and then when His Honour said was it
1 "Crisis Staff," that also rang a bell, and I testified that I leave it
2 open that it could be either.
3 Q. I know you did a lot of research subsequent to the events of
4 August 5, 1992. Do you know whether or not on or about August 5, 1992, in
5 fact there was not an existence of the Crisis Staff in Prijedor?
6 A. I find that surprising because --
7 Q. We don't like to use that word "surprising" here. I'm just
8 kidding. Go ahead.
9 A. Well, I find that surprising because that's a word using -- that
10 something -- crisis something was used to us that day.
11 Q. In the Tadic case, in the Blaskic case, in the Kovacevic case, in
12 the Sikirica Keraterm case, you've never shared the view that Simo Drljaca
13 identified these people during this meeting as being members of a "Crisis
15 A. I'm not sure that I was asked.
16 MR. KOUMJIAN: Objection. Unless he was asked that and the
17 counsel can point to the question and the answer or lack of one, I don't
18 think it's fair to ask the witness to be volunteered information that was
19 not asked of him.
20 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Sustained.
21 MR. OSTOJIC:
22 Q. Let me ask you this: You testified on those four prior occasions.
23 During your testimony on those cases as we've highlighted, for example,
24 in the Dusko Tadic case you spoke specifically about the August 5, 1992
25 meeting, did you not?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. And you tried to share with the Court in an open and honest manner
3 all the details that you had relating to that meeting, did you not?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. And in fact, I looked through that testimony, and your
6 recollection is probably far stronger than mine, but do you remember at
7 any time sharing with the Court under oath that Simo Drljaca identified
8 the members you were about to meet as being those from a "Crisis
10 A. I don't recall, and I don't recall being asked what they were
12 Q. Help me with this if you can: Yesterday you testified about
13 Colonel Arsic making a gesture with his hand and saying if you wished to
14 go to the camp Omarska, talk to these individuals, and he gestured or you
15 said he raised his hand. Do you remember that testimony?
16 A. Yeah.
17 Q. And, in fact, it was your conclusion at that time that the people
18 who would be able to give you access to the camps were the two gentleman
19 to the right of Colonel Arsic, namely Dr. Kovacevic and next to him
20 Dr. Stakic; correct?
21 A. Yes. He implied all three of the other men, though, including
22 Mr. Drljaca. The civilian authorities basically, not the military.
23 Q. He didn't imply it. Didn't he actually say it?
24 A. I can't remember if he actually said it, but he said not the
25 military authorities. Manjaca, he made it clear to us, was under the
1 command of the military authorities, and it was his authority -- under his
2 authority that we could go to Manjaca, and if we wanted to go to Omarska,
3 we would need the authority of the civilian authorities. And he said this
4 would be all -- well, I mean he -- the three representatives of the
5 civilian authorities in the room, Stakic, Kovacevic, Drljaca.
6 Q. During that meeting, there was no discussion about Trnopolje, was
8 A. Not from me. I think I heard Penny Marshall on the video mention
9 it. So although I -- I mean, the video colours the recollection,
10 unfortunately. I would say yes, there was. I heard it on the film
12 Q. Let me just clarify as to whether or not Colonel Arsic had quoted
13 Simo Drljaca as the man in charge. On page 785 of your July 15, 1998
14 transcript discussing again the gesture -- I don't know if I should read
15 the entire thing but I guess I will. Question line 13:
16 Q. After your question and answer segment with Colonel
17 Arsic, how did it end, his participation?
18 Answer line 15:
19 A. After a while, Colonel Arsic up on his Manjaca idea.
20 He shrugged and said, "Well, I can't give permission to go to Omarska. If
21 you want to go to Omarska" - and Trnopolje was also being mentioned but
22 Omarska mainly - he gestured to his right and said, "you need to talk to
23 these men because they're in charge of Omarska and Trnopolje."
24 Line 22:
25 Q. Who was on his right?
1 A. Mr. Kovacevic and Mr. Stakic.
2 And then, Mr. Vulliamy, you proceed to add: "He also said that we
3 would need to speak to Mr. Drljaca but his gesture was in this
5 Do you remember giving that testimony approximately four years
7 A. I don't remember it, but it makes sense.
8 Q. Well, did you in fact, sir, or any members of the team -- I'm
9 going a little too fast.
10 Did you in fact, sir, or any members of the ITN team who were in
11 Prijedor on August 5, 1992, ask or talk to Simo Drljaca about gaining
12 access to the camp?
13 A. Mr. Drljaca took us to the camp. He was there, so --
14 Q. We saw him on the video, but did you ask him for permission to go
15 to the camp?
16 A. I think we were asking all -- everybody in the room for permission
17 to go to the camp at various points in the meeting. I mean all of them.
18 Q. Yesterday when you were asked by the OTP who in fact could have
19 given you this access to the camp, you restricted your answer only to
20 Dr. Kovacevic and Dr. Stakic.
21 A. No. Well, I mean -- well, I'll add -- I mean, we were asking them
22 as a group of people fairly continuously over a period of time.
23 Q. Let me just quickly because we only have a couple of minutes left,
24 Just quickly in your book, I noted a couple interesting issues, and if I
25 could cover one.
1 Within your book that you wrote in 1993 and published in 1994,
2 page 8 of that book, first full paragraph, you identify Milan Kovacevic,
3 and you identify him as being the man responsible for the delivery of
4 Muslim prisoners to the Omarska concentration camp.
5 A. Yes. That's a fair -- that's a fair inference of --
6 Q. I'm not inferring anything. I'm reading it directly from your
8 A. Yeah.
9 Q. My question to you, sir, is: Do not mention and do not identify
10 Dr. Milomir Stakic as being the individual who is responsible for the
11 delivery of prisoners to Omarska camp. You, in fact, only identify one
12 person, and that person being the late Milan Kovacevic, do you not?
13 A. That's a section that opens, as I recall - I haven't seen it for a
14 while - that's a section that opens with a part of that meeting in which
15 we're being shown various maps by Mr. Kovacevic, and indeed that's --
16 that's -- that's a quote from the book, and it's -- and it's -- I think
17 it's true.
18 I think Mr. Stakic appears elsewhere in the book if not somewhere
19 during the opening.
20 Q. On page 100 you do identify Dr. Stakic, and you identify him as
21 being the "civilian" mayor, And then you proceed to identify again his
22 deputy Milan Kovacevic, and then you proceed to say what Milan Kovacevic's
23 job was as follows: "Whose job it is to oversee the transit centres,
24 including Omarska, and who was himself born in Jasenovac in 1941."
25 Also on that page, 92 pages later, you again identify only
1 Dr Kovacevic as being the person who oversees the camps and the person who
2 is responsible for the camps, do you not, sir?
3 A. I don't remember it, but if you say so, yes, because Dr. Kovacevic
4 was responsible for the camps as the deputy to Dr. Stakic. He was.
5 Q. At no time in your book or in your article of August 7, 1992, do
6 you identify Dr. Stakic as being the person who is either in control or
7 responsible for any of the activities involving the people who were
8 detained in either Omarska or Trnopolje; isn't that correct?
9 A. I'm sure it is. He said much less and he is what I said he was,
10 the civilian mayor, the top official.
11 MR. OSTOJIC: I'm not sure if it's a convenient time, Your
13 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: I think it's the appropriate time, but in order
14 that we don't lose control on the exhibits, I take it that the Defence
15 tenders this article, "The Guardian," dated Friday, August 7, 1992.
16 MR. OSTOJIC: We do, Your Honour.
17 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: This would then go as DPD1, deposition taking
18 Defence 1.
19 MR. OSTOJIC: Your Honour.
20 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: What -- sorry. What about the book? Is it
21 your intention to tender the book as well?
22 MR. OSTOJIC: There's copyright laws that I just want to make sure
23 I don't violate in terms of photocopying a text, a book, that the author
24 is here unless and he could waive that. But in all seriousness, I think
25 based on his testimony, it's unnecessary to have the entire book. We do
1 have two extra copies that we took the liberty of preparing and
2 photocopying, but it's at the Court's pleasure. Or the OTP, I'm sure, if
3 they have the book can produce it. I'll make whatever accommodations the
4 Court wishes.
5 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: If I recollect copyright correctly, it allows
6 for making copies of, depending on the country, 20 to 25 copies. So this
7 shouldn't be any obstacle. But we are more than happy to receive copies
8 of the parts, of the relevant parts, of this book and they may then go
9 under DPD2.
10 There was a comment by the OTP, please.
11 MR. KOUMJIAN: I don't believe we've marked the video that was
12 played today, which had not been played before. It was an excerpt from a
13 video with the ERN number V000-0662, beginning at --
14 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: What would be the next DP number?
15 THE REGISTRAR: It would be DP7, Your Honour.
16 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: DP7. Thank you.
17 Let's have the break now until thirty minutes past two.
18 --- Luncheon recess taken at 1.02 p.m.
19 --- On resuming at 2.32 p.m.
20 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: The Defence may continue immediately, please.
21 MR. OSTOJIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
22 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Vulliamy.
23 A. Good afternoon, sir.
24 Q. I never like to give cautionary remarks to a witness, but I do
25 that for two reasons if I may be permitted, and that is one, to remind
1 myself of the rule that I would hope that you also follow, sir, and that
2 is since we both speak English, we're overlapping a bit, and it's truly my
3 fault more than yours, so don't take any of the comments as being
4 negative. If you can just wait until I finish the question or reasonably
5 when you think I've finished the question, and I'll try to do the same
6 after you've completed your answer. Our translators are having some
7 difficulty following me and then you as well. So can we agree on that a
8 little bit?
9 A. Absolutely. The Court has also asked the same thing, and I
10 apologise about any problems so far.
11 Q. Thank you.
12 MR. OSTOJIC: If I may proceed, Your Honour.
13 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Please.
14 MR. OSTOJIC:
15 Q. Sir, I'm troubled personally about a couple of things, and I'll
16 get back to this issue of control, I do have a number of issues related to
17 that, but on the question of the word "nominal," I had some time during
18 the break to actually look up the word in a thesaurus, and you being an
19 English journalist, the thesaurus that I looked at, which using the
20 English language, states that the meaning of the word "nominal" is
21 supposed, small, so-called, in name only, and inconsequential.
22 Do you agree that the meaning of the word "nominal" is that which
23 I've just described or do you continue to insist that it means top
24 official, as you identified and told us, immediately before the break?
25 A. I take the word to mean and used it to mean titular as in title.
1 Q. You disagree with the other comment as I call them, definitions
2 and meanings of the word nominal?
3 MR. KOUMJIAN: Objection. First of all, the thesaurus does not
4 give definitions, but synonyms and secondly, whether he agrees or
5 disagrees with the synonyms of various meaning or shades of meaning in a
6 thesaurus is not relevant to these proceedings.
7 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Sustained. Maybe we can use four different
8 thesauruses - it's a difficult word - but it's not important what this
9 book tells us but what the intention of the witness before us was, what he
10 wanted to express by his own words.
11 MR. OSTOJIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
12 Q. If I were to ask you this question, Mr. Vulliamy, as late as May
13 of 2002, just a couple of months ago, would your opinion as to the man
14 whose authority you were given to penetrate Omarska and Trnopolje
15 concentration camps in August of 1992 an ITN team would be Milan
16 Kovacevic, true or false?
17 A. Not his authority alone, but he was certainly part of the body
18 as -- that was indicated to us that was giving us the authority. I don't
19 know what authority or what the -- as it were the relationship of
20 authority or power was between the top official and his deputy or, as I
21 think they were presented to us, introduced to us, the president and the
23 If it was Mr. Kovacevic who was, as I said before and I'm going
24 over this, was doing most of the talking at the meeting, then that's
25 probably what I meant by that. But I don't really, and I'm going to sort
1 of stick with this, we were asking all of them as a body to go at various
2 points of the meeting.
3 Q. My question was a little more precise than that. Isn't it true,
4 sir, that in May of 2002, you wrote an article which related to this
5 Tribunal and specifically were giving an overview of what you called a
6 "blue chair" upon which you testified from and gave a synopsis of what
7 you thought witnesses may or may not say in the Milosevic trial, and then
8 you gave your readers a little background about your experience and you
9 identify yourself? I'm not done. I'm just pausing for the interpreters.
11 And you further identify yourself as being a person who had
12 testified in cases before the Tribunal, among others against Milan
13 Kovacevic, and then you proceed to say: "Milan Kovacevic, the man on
14 whose authority I penetrated Omarska and Trnopolje concentration camps in
15 August 1992 with an ITN team"?
16 A. Well, yes. He was the man on whose authority we went to the
17 camps. He was the deputy president of the authority, the body who I was
18 given to believe was in charge of the camps.
19 Q. At no time in any of the articles that you, sir, wrote, whether
20 they be the article of August 7, 1992, the article from February 1996, or
21 the article in May of 2002 do you ever identify Dr. Milomir Stakic as the
22 man upon whose authority you were able to penetrate Omarska or Trnopolje;
24 A. Correct.
25 Q. The article from which I'm quoting, do you regularly produce
1 articles for this publication?
2 A. Which publication?
3 Q. It's the Bosnian Institute. It's called the Bosnian Report
4 published by the Bosnian Institute?
5 A. I have not written an article for the Bosnian Institute.
6 MR. OSTOJIC: With the Court's permission, may I tender a copy to
7 the usher and she can distribute it to --
8 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Please proceed.
9 MR. OSTOJIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
10 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: This would be DPD3.
11 MR. OSTOJIC: And I have to admit for the record, if I may, we did
12 actually mark, and I'm directing it to the Court as well as the OTP, the
13 area on which we're focusing. It's underlined with an asterisk on the
14 right side. Just so the record is clear, that's my indication. I didn't
15 have a clean copy, so I apologise.
16 Q. Mr. Vulliamy, just let me know what you've had an opportunity to
17 look at the article, and I will have a couple of questions in connection
18 with it.
19 A. I have got the article in front of me. I remember it and I was
20 slightly confused when you said May 2002, because I wrote this article
21 quite a long time before that, in, I think, February 2002.
22 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: You can read it on the last page that this
23 article was published in the Observer on the 7th of February, 2002.
24 Evidently it's a reprint.
25 MR. OSTOJIC: And just so the record is clear, on the top right
1 hand portion it is a series of articles that appear in this Bosnian
2 Institute or Bosnian Report, and the series is from January through May
3 2002; correct?
4 A. Yes. I wrote the article during that period.
5 Q. Now, I'd like to ask you, if I may, still on this issue of
6 control, when you left the meeting or were asked to leave the meeting of
7 August 5, 1992, you stated that there was a debate among its members. Do
8 you recall that?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Now, you and all the other international press, if you will, were
11 asked to leave; correct?
12 A. We were asked -- yes. We were all asked to wait outside while
13 they talked on their own.
14 Q. You never came back to the municipal building or back in that room
15 to have further discussions with either Dr. Stakic or any of the other
16 individuals; correct?
17 A. No. No.
18 Q. In fact, who was the individual who then, after this debate,
19 advised you that they would take you to Omarska?
20 A. Mr. Drljaca.
21 Q. Do you know, sir, what the debate was about?
22 A. No, but Mr. Drljaca indicated to the ITN interpreter that they'd
23 been discussing what to do with us and had come to that conclusion.
24 Q. Discussing or debating?
25 A. Well, I took it that the -- shall I say the argument between
1 Mr. Arsic and others as to whether Manjaca was a suitable destination or
2 not and whether we could or couldn't, should or shouldn't go to Manjaca
3 had continued.
4 Q. And on page 35 of yesterday's transcript you also tell us while
5 waiting outside and discussing with Mr. Simo Drljaca the results of this
6 debate or discussion that a reporter came and wanted to join your group
7 from Zagreb, I believe, from see and discover Omarska. Is that true?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Now, help me with this with respect to who would give whom
10 permission to go to the camp? I think you said that the reporter was
11 asked if he had permission from Dr. Karadzic or any other members'
12 authority to go to Omarska. I think -- that's a long question. I'm
13 sorry. Just trying to give you a little background on it. And I think
14 you then said that Simo Drljaca asked him: "Did you get the authority
15 from Radovan Karadzic?" The answer was no. Therefore, he wasn't allowed
16 to join you and other members of ITN; correct?
17 A. He was asked, as I recall, whether he was part of Dr. Karadzic's
18 party or some such phrase. I don't think the actual word "permission
19 from" Dr. Karadzic, but it was his party, the part of, as it were, the
20 organised tour, if you could put it that way.
21 Q. So it's your impression that Dr. Karadzic was merely organising a
22 tour for the international press, correct, but not authorising them to go
23 to Omarska?
24 A. No. It was my impression that Dr. Karadzic had issued a form of
25 challenge. And I'm sorry if I didn't make this clear yesterday, when he
1 was in London that allegations about Omarska were not true and that he
2 would make the necessary arrangements for us to go. It wasn't a tour for
3 the international press. In fact, the ejection of Mr. Juda from the
4 convoy I think showed that's exactly what it wasn't. It was a specific --
5 these were specific arrangements for ITN and ourselves to go to Omarska
6 and that what was going on was the realisation of those arrangements
7 despite the obstacles I've discussed yesterday.
8 Q. Do you believe, as you sit here, that Mr. Juda, who came from
9 Zagreb, would have been able to merely call up Dr. Kovacevic or talk to
10 Simo Drljaca and obtain authority to go on to Omarska?
11 A. No, I don't think he could have done that.
12 MR. KOUMJIAN: That calls for speculation. The witness can
13 testify about the facts of how he received permission, about what he
14 observed, but it doesn't serve any purpose to have him speculate about
15 someone else's -- what might have happened and under another circumstance.
16 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Sustained.
17 MR. OSTOJIC:
18 Q. Well, do you know since you were there, Mr. Vulliamy, whether or
19 not you gave the advice to this reporter that all he had to do was call
20 Drljaca or Kovacevic and he'd be able to go see Omarska?
21 A. Well, no, I didn't give that advice.
22 Q. Do you know, sir, if -- do you know, sir, if the reporter himself
23 asked Drljaca for permission to be able to go see the Omarska camp?
24 A. I don't know, I'm afraid.
25 Q. Just for clarification, we spoke a little bit earlier at the
1 beginning of the cross about three concepts, one being your actual
2 contemporaneous notes, then your aide-memoirs, as you call them, and
3 ultimately the end result of your interview compiling both your
4 contemporaneous notes, your aide-memoirs and your recollection of the
5 events which is the final product, an article hopefully; right?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Now, in preparation for this case, did you at any time prepare
8 this aide-memoire or type out a summary of the minutes from the August 5,
9 1992 meeting?
10 A. In preparation for this case, no.
11 Q. In preparation -- or at any time for any reason had you?
12 A. Did I prepare typewritten notes, yes. I think you know. They're
13 in a file.
14 Q. Well, I don't, and I just want to make sure it's clear. I'm not
15 talking about the February 1996 typewritten aide-memoirs. I'm asking,
16 from the August 5, 1992 notes that you have, whether or not you have
17 prepared any aide-memoires?
18 A. Not from August the 5th. No. There was no way of typing stuff at
19 that. I wrote the article longhand and it was dictated. I didn't have
20 equipment of that kind.
21 Q. So for the August 5, 1992 article, you went from contemporaneous
22 notes to the ultimate article; correct?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Contrasting that with the February 1996 interview, you actually
25 had all three: Contemporaneous notes, aide-memoires, and then the
1 ultimate and final article; correct?
2 A. Yes, if I can explain. In 1992, there was no means of
3 transmitting, no technical means, at least not available to me, of
4 transmitting material from any sort of computer or electronic device.
5 There were -- I think people might know there were problems in -- at the
7 In 1996, I went from Prijedor to Zagreb and did prepare
8 typewritten notes because I did have access to a computer in Zagreb and
9 prepared typewritten notes on the basis of consultations with my colleague
10 and with the translator. I think I've explained that the shorthand that
11 I've read out, and I'm sure you can hear, is not -- it's not an exact,
12 it's not a fluent account of things. In fact, if you were to quote from
13 the shorthand direct, you'd make most people sound like inarticulate
14 idiots, which none of these people are.
15 Q. Let me just, for the purpose of cleaning up a couple of things,
16 ask the Court if you can distribute relevant portions?
17 THE INTERPRETER: Mike.
18 MR. OSTOJIC: Thank you.
19 Q. Of the book "Seasons in Hell" by Ed Vulliamy that we discussed,
20 specifically pages 8 and 9 and pages 100 and 101?
21 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Please proceed. This would be DPD4, and may
22 I -- sorry.
23 THE REGISTRAR: Sorry, it was already number DPD2, Your Honour.
24 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Thank you for this hint. Now, what I wanted to
25 state, the witness might please direct our -- yes, show us indeed parts of
1 the book if in case he believes that these parts my be, of course not
2 deliberately, out of content and that some other portions of your book
3 would be helpful or would assist the Tribunal in coming closer to the
4 truth. So therefore, please don't hesitate to draw our attention to other
5 parts of your book if you feel necessary.
6 THE WITNESS: I'm very grateful to Your Honour. I haven't seen
7 the book for a good many years, but I will do the best I can from my
8 recollection, but I'm very grateful and thank you for the opportunity.
9 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: The Prosecution.
10 MR. KOUMJIAN: I would request, if there is no objection from the
11 Defence and if Your Honour -- I believe that the -- regarding pages 100 --
12 I think counsel said 100 and 101, the visit to the Omarska camp, as I
13 found it in the book, begins on page 98, going through page 107, and I
14 have copies for everyone of those pages, those ten pages if that's
15 acceptable. Except that, since I did the copying and not Ms. Karper, the
16 staple is in the wrong part of the page. So I have the copies.
17 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: So we have concurrent contribution, but it
18 shouldn't be a problem. No objections by the Defence. Let the OTP tender
19 this -- what was it, ten pages?
20 MR. KOUMJIAN: From page 98 to 107, ten pages.
21 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: So if we also hear the other part, it always
22 assists us, and therefore, could you be so kind and distribute also these
24 So these pages, starting with Chapter 5, would be DP8. Any
25 additional pages? It is not the case. Please proceed.
1 MR. OSTOJIC: Not at this time.
2 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Okay.
3 MR. OSTOJIC: You can never anticipate.
4 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Please proceed.
5 MR. OSTOJIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
6 Q. This is just a little housekeeping matter, Mr. Vulliamy, by think
7 the Court asked you a question. I'm not sure if you have answered it or
8 if you would like the opportunity to answer it. I'll certainly give that
9 to you.
10 A. Not at the moment. Let's deal with the matter now, and if there
11 are other -- if there are other issues then I'll bring them up, but,
12 please, I'm at your disposal.
13 Q. Thank you. Is it accurate as it's reflected on pages 8 and 100 --
14 strike that. Is it accurate in your book as reflected on page 8 and page
15 100 that it is Dr. Kovacevic who is the man who is in charge of and
16 responsible for the Omarska and Trnopolje camps?
17 A. That is the -- that is what is written here.
18 Q. Is it wrong?
19 A. Hmm?
20 Q. Is it wrong?
21 A. No. That's the impression we were given at the meeting.
22 Q. Now, at any time during this meeting that you had on August 5,
23 1992, did Colonel Arsic ever introduce the international press, as I've
24 coined you that attended it meeting, did he ever introduce Dr. Stakic as
25 the man who was in charge of Omarska?
1 A. No. He indicated that the civilian authorities were the
2 authorities on whose authority, pardon the repetition, on whose authority
3 we would need if we were to go into the camps, and by that he indicated,
4 and I think also said, three people in the room, Mr. Stakic, Mr.
5 Kovacevic, and Mr. -- And Colonel, sorry, Arsic -- forgive me, and the
6 police chief Simo Drljaca. And as I've said before and it's -- there's
7 material here and there's material in what I said yesterday, it was
8 Kovacevic who was doing most of the talking.
9 Q. I understand that.
10 A. And seemed to be, if you like, the most hands-on character in the
11 room, if you'll pardon the expression.
12 Q. So at no time would you have written that in 1992, Dr. Stakic was
13 introduced to us as the man who was in charge of Omarska. This was said
14 by Colonel Vladimir Arsic. If you were quoted somewhere as that, would
15 you consider that to be an embellishment, a distortion, or an outright
17 A. I don't think Vladimir Arsic ever pointed to Mr. Stakic and said,
18 "This is the man in charge of Omarska." I don't think I've said that.
19 Q. I agree with you and that's okay, but if you did, what would you
20 qualify it as being, an embellishment, a distortion, or a lie?
21 A. Well, he didn't.
22 MR. KOUMJIAN: It's ambiguous, because he just indicated he never
23 said Dr. Arsic -- excuse me, Colonel Arsic pointed to Stakic and said,
24 "This is the man." And counsel had earlier asked another question, so
25 I'm not sure what the answer's directed to there.
1 MR. OSTOJIC: I'm not sure I follow the objection, but I could
2 clean it up if I may.
3 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Could you please repeat the question.
4 MR. OSTOJIC: Thank you.
5 Q. Did you, Mr. Vulliamy, at any time write that "In 1992, Dr. Stakic
6 was introduced to us as the man who was in charge of Omarska. This was
7 said by Colonel Vladimir Arsic." Just those two sentences. Did you ever
8 write or make that statement to anyone?
9 A. I don't recall that.
10 Q. Would it surprise you that when you did your aide-memoires and
11 shipped the aide-memoires to the OTP, specifically Michael Keegan, that in
12 fact that's the first thing you write in summarising your report with
13 Dr. Stakic?
14 A. Well, I think it's fair to say that Dr. Stakic was the senior
15 official --
16 Q. I'm not asking you that, Mr. Vulliamy.
17 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: May the witness please give the answer.
18 THE WITNESS: Dr. Stakic was the senior official, the top man, in
19 the group of people in the room on whose authority we went to Omarska and
20 whose authority we were told by Colonel Arsic we would need to go to
21 Omarska or at least to complete the last phase of Dr. Karadzic's
22 arrangements for us.
23 Why I have written the -- the position of Mr. Kovacevic in
24 overseeing the running of the camps is because after that meeting, when
25 the -- what I call the circus, the press, descended on Omarska and
1 Trnopolje in the days following, Mr. Kovacevic, in a number of television
2 and newspaper interviews, was put up as the man or the front man answering
3 for the authority running those camps to give their comments.
4 MR. OSTOJIC:
5 Q. And that being the debate that occurred on August 5th, 1992, do
6 you know what position, if any, Dr. Milomir Stakic had in connection with
7 the decisions or discussion that is were taking place while you were
9 A. No. What I know is that as a group, the three of them presumably
10 changed their minds or were told to change their minds or came to a
11 decision that we would be able to continue to Omarska to see the little
12 that we saw. This and this but not that, whatever it was, and then to
13 proceed to Trnopolje.
14 Q. Did you ever ask Dr. Stakic, when you met with him in February
15 1992, as to whether or not he had any control or authorisation with
16 respect to the detention camp Omarska or Trnopolje?
17 MR. KOUMJIAN: Mr. Vulliamy, if you could wait for just a second.
18 I believe counsel misspoke, and I believe he meant February 1996.
19 MR. OSTOJIC: Thank you.
20 Q. How about if we do it this way, Mr. Vulliamy: How about if I
21 first pass out with the Court's permission what I've identified as
22 aide-memoirs from the contemporaneous notes of the February 1996 meeting,
24 A. That's okay so long as they're not presented as only coming from
25 the contemporaneous notes. Another colleague of mine had taken his notes
1 as well, and there were consultations with the translator as well.
2 Q. Since we're passing this out, the other colleague was Roger who
3 from The New York Times?
4 A. Well, I've said his name and I'm not sure if it's appropriate, but
5 you've asked me, and it's Roger Cohen from The New York Times.
6 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: DPD4.
7 MR. OSTOJIC:
8 Q. Mr. Vulliamy, if you see on the top of that Exhibit DPD4, it has
9 your name, and then you proceed in the first sentence of this four-page
10 document to state the following: "In 1992, Dr. Stakic was introduced to
11 us as the man who was in charge of Omarska. This was said by Colonel
12 Vladimir Arsic, local army commander ..." And then it goes on. End quote.
13 My question was earlier, is this your aide-memoire, as you called
14 it, from the meeting of February 1996?
15 A. Yes, it is, and the sentence you've just quoted, it was
16 aide-memoire to myself, and that was not as you're not tired of reminding
17 me, that was not published and it refers to the fact that he was in charge
18 of the authority on whose authority we went to Omarska, mainly the
19 authorities of Prijedor.
20 Q. I'm getting a little tired but not that tired. In connection with
21 this, this is the actual aide-memoire that you sent to the OTP; correct?
22 A. I sent a disk with -- of this material to the -- to the Tribunal,
24 Q. And it is -- what I'm asking you is that sentence where you claim
25 to the OTP that Dr. Stakic was the man in charge of Omarska, now knowing
1 what you wrote in August of 1992, reviewing parts of your book of February
2 1994, your testimony here today and yesterday, would you consider this
3 statement to be, since we know now Dr. Arsic did not actually tell you
4 that Dr. Stakic was the man in charge of Omarska, would this sentence be
5 considered an embellishment, distortion, or lie?
6 A. No.
7 MR. KOUMJIAN: Excuse me. I object because the question, although
8 it referred to the sentence, only quoted -- excuse me. I withdraw the
9 objection. It was the next sentence I was -- sorry. I missed a period.
10 Thank you.
11 MR. OSTOJIC:
12 Q. I didn't catch your answer. I'm sorry.
13 A. No. This isn't in quotation marks, and I'm going to stand by
14 my -- by my -- by -- by what it means, that he's in charge of the -- of
15 the authorities on whose authority we went to Omarska.
16 Q. So it's neither an embellishment, nor distortion, nor a lie in
17 your opinion; correct?
18 A. No.
19 Q. Correct?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Now when you read these contemporaneous notes of this meeting that
22 you had with Dr. Stakic in 1992 obviously we didn't see the questions, I
23 think the OTP covered the fact that you would not have pre-written
24 questions incorporated within your contemporaneous notes taking, correct?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. You read those minutes to us early this morning commencing at
2 9.30. I didn't note anywhere in the contemporaneous notes or your direct
3 examination that during the meeting of February 1996 you had a discussion
4 with Dr. Stakic about The Hague and the International Crime Tribunal for
5 the former Yugoslavia. Am I correct in that summary?
6 A. I -- think I we did mention The Hague, as I recall.
7 Q. With respect to Dr. Stakic?
8 A. With respect to Mr. Kovacevic, for sure. I'm not sure about Dr.
9 Stakic. We might have done.
10 Q. I've read the transcript and I beg to differ, but if you look on
11 the page of this exhibit, DPD4, I think it's the third page?
12 A. The second page.
13 Q. The second page. Thank you. You found the section which is in
14 the top half of the page 2 of DPD4. You claim that you asked Dr. Stakic
15 "if you're worried about The Hague", and then you proceed to give a
16 description or a summary, if you will, of what he said.
17 Now, when I compare that to the contemporaneous notes, there seems
18 to be many inconsistencies with what that portion of your contemporaneous
19 notes are and that is which is reflected in the handwritten notes. My
20 question to you and I'm sure you recall that in 1998, you also admitted
21 and acknowledged that there were numerous inconsistencies with the
22 contemporaneous notes and your aide-memoire as it related to
23 Dr. Kovacevic. Do you recall that?
24 A. Yes. You're calling this a transcript. It's not a transcript.
25 And I can answer, if I may, two questions -- your two questions, because I
1 didn't get the chance to answer the first one.
2 I -- noting this, yes, I do see there's a question about the
3 Hague. If my memory serves me, which it -- I mean, I don't think I asked
4 about the Hague. Mr. Cohen may have asked about the Hague. I didn't
5 mention it this morning because, as you can see, the reply and certainly
6 the notes that I took and read out this morning don't deal much with The
8 Q. So you --
9 A. Hang on.
10 Q. -- Because the second sentence of that sentence actually does have
11 the word Hague in it and that second sentence you attribute what Dr.
12 Stakic said. If you look at the second line "Whoever did that should be
13 worried about the Hague." So how could you tell us here now, today, that
14 in the answer Dr. Stakic never used the word The Hague?
15 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: May I ask Defence counsel, in all seriousness,
16 to let the witness speak out before interrupting the witness.
17 THE WITNESS: Well, I do say here that this is a -- that if it's
18 here, he would have mentioned The Hague. This -- these notes were
19 compiled by myself and my colleague after consultations with the
20 translator. And actually, he has -- when he's talking about this, he has
21 rather a good point about the expulsion of Serbs from the Krajina, and
22 whoever did that should be worried about The Hague. Quite so.
23 That isn't in my notes. I think, and I haven't got them here, but
24 I think I recall a note saying one and a half million Serb, with an arrow
25 pointing, which would be an arrow pointing towards Mr. Cohen, it having
1 been his question.
2 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Could the usher please provide the witness once
3 again with these notes.
4 THE WITNESS: May I continue, Your Honour?
5 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Please.
6 THE WITNESS: It's on -- I'm sorry, Your Honour. On the second
7 page, which in the pencil mark I've got is DP6-2 about halfway down it
8 says: "One and a half M Serbs," with an arrow pointing to the left, to
9 the right. Pardon me. That's where my colleague was sitting, and that
10 would be perhaps a question that he wanted answered, and I did not have
11 any record of that in my notes.
12 MR. OSTOJIC:
13 Q. It was something that you recall and then incorporated in your
14 aide-memoires and sent to the OTP; correct?
15 A. Yes. No, it was something that I didn't recall, it was something
16 that from what I can gather from the way this is laid out would have been
17 in my colleague's notes. Although we do pick up in my notes, and I -- if
18 I can preempt you, there's a mistake, great-grandfather and grandfather
19 which I observe immediately, but my notes do pick up with his family
20 history, which I found to be interesting and, indeed, telling.
21 Q. We'll get back to that in the February 1996 meeting in a few
22 minutes. I just want to try to conclude, and I'm endeavouring to conclude
23 the April 5, 1992 meeting, if you could believe it.
24 With respect to gaining authorisation to go to the Omarska and
25 Trnopolje detention centres, were you or any representatives from the ITN
1 crew --
2 A. This is August the 5th.
3 Q. I stand corrected. Everyone's correcting me on that. Thank you.
4 August 5, 1992, did you obtain written permission from anyone to go to the
5 Omarska and Trnopolje camp?
6 A. No, we didn't. I wish we had. We didn't. It was, as I think I
7 sort of outlined yesterday, it was quite a struggle to get there at all.
8 Q. Let me ask you. You were in the meeting at the municipal building
9 for approximately, I think you said, one and a half to two hours; correct?
10 A. Something like that. I don't know exactly how long, but it was a
11 long meeting, yes.
12 Q. Well, you tell me. I don't want to use any numbers --
13 A. Yes, one and a half to two hours, something like that.
14 Q. And the trip from the municipal building to the actual Omarska
15 Detention Centre was how long? Twenty-five minutes I think you said?
16 A. I think a little more forty-five, perhaps.
17 Q. Forty-five minutes. How long did you stay at the Omarska
18 Detention Centre?
19 A. I would say an hour or a little longer, most of which was in this
20 office building, office.
21 Q. And that is where you also had a meeting with, among others,
22 Simo Drljaca, Colonel Arsic, and Mr. Meakic; correct?
23 A. I don't think Colonel Arsic was there. At the meeting, it was
24 certainly Mr. Drljaca, certainly Mr. Meakic the commander, and the
25 Major Milutinovic from Banja Luka was also with us, but I don't think
1 Colonel Arsic. But there was a meeting there, yes.
2 Q. At any time did Dr. Milomir Stakic accompany you to the Omarska
3 Detention Centre?
4 A. No. Neither the president nor his deputy came on the actual
6 Q. Then after spending the hour or longer at the Omarska Detention
7 Centre, you proceeded to go to Trnopolje; correct?
8 A. Well, yes, as recounted yesterday. Initially against
9 our -- against our wishes. We wanted to stay in Omarska, and as you know
10 we weren't allowed to and we were rather bundled off to Trnopolje.
11 Q. And how long did you spend at Trnopolje, sir?
12 A. One and a half hours, probably.
13 Q. And did Dr. Stakic at any time accompany you or any members of the
14 ITN crew to Trnopolje?
15 A. No. It was the same convoy as had set off from Prijedor minus, I
16 think, Major Milutinovic who peeled off at some point. I can't remember
18 THE INTERPRETER: Could the counsel please speak closer to the
19 microphone. Thank you.
20 MR. OSTOJIC:
21 Q. And I know from your background you do not have a criminal justice
22 or a police academy degree, and you're not experienced in that, but do you
23 know, sir, what the authority or hierarchy was in the police, the MUP,
24 M-U-P, in Prijedor municipality in August of 1992?
25 MR. KOUMJIAN: That calls for speculation. There would be no
1 basis for him to --
2 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Dismissed.
3 MR. OSTOJIC: Okay.
4 A. I don't know the exact hierarchy. I was given to believe that
5 because of the -- what was seen as the extreme situation in the area,
6 the -- whatever arrangements had been provisionally suspended and that
7 this group, staff, committee, or whatever, had been formed, and I was also
8 given to believe by Colonel Arsic that he was the military wing of that
9 and that the other three gentlemen were the civilian wing of that, and if
10 the MUP did not come under the -- the civilian command, then I don't know
11 because I doubt they were a totally independent body. But the answer is I
12 don't know the exact chain of command.
13 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Just for clarification of the record on this
14 page, when speaking about group, staff, committee, you always have in mind
15 crisis group, Crisis Staff, or Crisis Committee; correct?
16 THE WITNESS: Yes. It's specifically Messrs. Stakic, Kovacevic,
17 Drljaca and Arsic.
18 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Thank you.
19 MR. OSTOJIC:
20 Q. When did you learn, sir, for the first time because I duly note in
21 your August 7th, 1992 publication, article in the February 1996
22 contemporaneous notes as well as the aide-memoires that we have before us,
23 when do you start identifying them in any form as being members of a
24 "Crisis Committee" or group or staff?
25 A. I don't recall.
1 Q. Can you explain to me why, if it's true, that in fact these people
2 were introduced as being members of the Crisis Committee that word or
3 those words, group, staff, committee, never appear in either your
4 contemporaneous notes, your articles from 1992, your contemporaneous notes
5 or your aide-memoires and articles of 1996?
6 A. I think they probably do appear somewhere but I thought they were
7 called the Crisis Committee or I said, I think, a number of times if it's
8 staff I'll stand corrected, but committee is the word I recall.
9 Q. You've read into the record your actual contemporaneous notes from
10 1992 and 1996. Do you recall ever identifying them as such?
11 A. Not in the notes. They're introduced there as colonel, president,
12 and vice-president as I recollect. I don't have the notes in front of me.
13 Q. Your article of August 7th, 1992, which you had the opportunity to
14 rereview, do you note whether you identify this group or committee or
15 staff and the members of it?
16 A. I don't think so, no.
17 Q. Can you explain to me why not?
18 A. Not particularly. There were -- after that day, there were
19 perhaps other things that seemed more relevant than the label. I think I
20 do, and I've now just noticed that I or in the editing Mr. Kovacevic has
21 been wrongly labelled as the president, but I don't think I used that
22 term, no, and I would ask perhaps yourself, the Court, to understand that
23 after finding those places and after trying to wonder what was in the
24 place we hadn't seen, I -- forgive me if the label was left out. As you
25 observed, it wasn't in the notes.
1 Q. If you recall, you testified after the visit to Omarska and
2 Trnopolje, you proceeded directly to Belgrade; correct?
3 A. Yes. We might have stopped for a -- some sort of snack, but I
4 don't -- I mean, if it was, it was brief. We went back to Belgrade that
5 night, arrived late or in the early hours of the following morning.
6 Q. And while in Belgrade, the following two or three days that you
7 were there, you had an opportunity, as you said, to have tea with
8 vice-president Professor Koljevic; correct?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Did you also have an opportunity to talk to General Mladic?
11 A. No.
12 Q. Now, during --
13 A. But --
14 Q. Please?
15 A. But in Pale he had walked past us while we were having lunch.
16 Q. So you didn't talk to him in Belgrade but you talked to him in
17 Pale; right?
18 A. I didn't talk to him, no. There was a brief rising, sitting down
19 again, but no discussion, no.
20 Q. Well, do you know there was no discussion or do you recall
21 anything he may have said?
22 A. I don't recall anything he may have said, no.
23 Q. Well, let me direct your attention to the sworn testimony you gave
24 on June 7, 1996, in the Dusko Tadic trial, which commences on page 1455,
25 line 31 and 32, and then your answer proceeds on page 1456, lines 1
1 through 4 in particular, if I may.
2 MR. OSTOJIC: Let me read this in the record, Your Honour and then
3 ask the witness a question about that.
4 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Please do so.
5 MR. OSTOJIC:
6 Q. As follows:
7 Q. What was the reaction from the Bosnian Serb
8 leadership to the reports you published and TV coverage?
9 A. A pretty explosive reaction all around. The Bosnian
10 Serb leadership said various things. General Mladic, as I recall, said
11 that the pictures had been transmitted were forgeries and photo montages
12 or else pictures showing Serbian prisoners in Muslim camps.
13 Do you recall giving that testimony?
14 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Could you please proceed to the end of this
16 MR. OSTOJIC: Yes.
17 A. I cannot remember Dr. Karadzic's exact words but they
18 suggested that there had been some exaggeration. I think they suggested
19 that he was surprised by what had been discovered while it was, forgive
20 me, it was the Yugoslav president Milan Panic who said that anybody
21 running such places would be punished and that they should be closed down.
22 A. I -- you asked me if I remember giving that testimony. I don't
23 actually remember saying those exact words, but it looks to make sense to
24 me, and I'm -- I do -- I'm sure I was asked what the reaction was.
25 Q. As you sit here do you recall General Mladic saying that the
1 pictures were forgeries and photo montages and they were pictures showing
2 Serbian prisoners in Muslim camps?
3 A. Yes, I do recall that being reported, yes. I when I -- you asked
4 me if I'd met him. He didn't say it directly to me.
5 Q. Do you remember also with respect to Omarska the conversation with
6 Major Milutinovic wherein he told you: "How can there be anything wrong
7 in Omarska?" This is in February 1996 when you visited him. "How can
8 there be anything wrong in Omarska in August 1992? The journalists went
9 to Omarska in 1992 and they found nothing. I bite my tongue."
10 Do you remember that?
11 A. I do remember that, yes.
12 Q. My question to you, sir: Who other than General Mladic, as you
13 recall, and Major Colonel Milutinovic made the statement with respect to
14 there being nothing being wrong in Omarska and that photos were forgeries
15 or montages which may be depicting Serbian prisoners in Muslim camps?
16 A. Dr. Stakic.
17 Q. So --
18 A. And many others, actually. It's been said a number of times.
19 Q. During the Dusko Tadic trial, you can find the fact that no one
20 other than the individuals you identify in those transcripts actually made
21 this summary statement that they were photo montages or that they were
22 forgeries or that they were Serbian prisoners in Muslim camps. Is that
24 MR. KOUMJIAN: Your Honour, I believe -- objection. I believe
25 it's an unfair question since the question that was quoted from the Tadic
1 trial was "What was the reaction of the Bosnian Serb leadership." I don't
2 think it's fair to include the mayor of a town as the leadership of the
3 Bosnian Serb entity.
4 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: I would leave aside this conclusion. No doubt
5 the answer starts "The Bosnian Serb leadership said various things."
6 Objection sustained.
7 MR. OSTOJIC:
8 Q. If you look at your aide-memoire, DPD4, page 2, bottom of the
9 page, you seem to attribute that exact same quote to Dr. Stakic, do you
10 not? In fact, you even add: "Bite tongue." Almost verbatim to the
11 language that you attribute and you were reaction to what
12 Major Milutinovic said during your sworn testimony in the Dusko Tadic
13 case, specifically appearing on page 1464.
14 A. Yes. Indeed, yeah. When people say something to the effect of
15 there was nothing wrong in Omarska in August 1992, the journalists found
16 nothing, or in this case they were pictures of Serbs in Muslim camps, I
17 it's more than just an expression of speech. Yeah, "Bite tongue," or
18 cheek. I felt like -- I'd learned and seen an awful lot between then and
19 now, now being February 1996, in that war. And when I'm told, "Oh, you
20 should have been there," or something to that effect, I do feel like
21 saying, "Well, excuse me, I was, and I was with the crew that shot those
22 pictures of supposed Serbs in Muslim camps, and they were not." But in
23 the interests of carrying on the conversation and especially given the
24 circumstances I think I explained earlier, not, as it were, playing my
25 hand on the table.
1 Q. Specifically in 1996, during the Dusko Tadic trial --
2 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
3 MR. OSTOJIC:
4 Q. -- You discussed the interview you had with Dr. Stakic in February
5 of 1996, and you were asked precisely the question with respect to what
6 his reaction was relating to the pictures that were shown on TV in 1992.
7 At that time, under oath, you stated, page 1463, line 27 through 33, and
8 it proceeds to the next page, Your Honour, you state: "I do not actually
9 recall. I think that the man introduced as the lawyer butted in at one
10 point and said, 'oh, they were forgeries.' And I think Dr. Stakic mumbled
11 something about them being Serbian prisoners in Muslim camps. It was
12 clear that this whole conversation was being taped. He started messing
13 around with the tape recorder, and then it became clear that the man who
14 had started off as the deputy, who then became the lawyer, was some sort
15 of policeman or bodyguard, and our interpreter had recognised him and was
16 trying to convey this to us with sign language, pointing to the tape
18 The next page it proceeds, just so I can have it in complete
19 context for the OTP and the record on page 1464 line 1, "The conversation
20 ended but we kept asking about Omarska, but the reply was always
21 'Jasenovac,' 'Jasenovac,' 'Jasenovac' so we were going around and around.
22 We were asking about one lot of camps and the reply would be another lot
23 of camps in the previous generation which I found interesting."
24 You go on to say on line five: "We ended up, Dr. Stakic said, it
25 was dark outside by now, he said 'it is very brave of you to be here with
1 us at this time of night.' He took -- which we took as a good cue to make
2 our way back to Banja Luka."
3 In 1996 when you gave sworn testimony, you were unable to recall
4 the reaction of Dr. Stakic. Today, based on your aide-memoires, you seem
5 to have a clearer recollection. If you look, sir, specifically on the
6 page of your contemporaneous notes, I'll direct your attention to DP6-3,
7 which I believe the second portion of that correlates with this section of
8 what you call your aide-memoires. Did you find it?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. You read that in the record today for us, sir. Does it anywhere
11 within there talk about Dr. Stakic mumbling about something, "Serbs in
12 Muslim camps," or "Muslims in Serb camps"?
13 A. In which?
14 Q. In the contemporaneous notes.
15 A. Yes. It says they were pictures of Serbs in Muslim camps.
16 Q. And what was he referring to, sir?
17 A. The television pictures of the Omarska camp about which he was
18 being asked.
19 Q. Read further in those contemporaneous notes to identify exactly
20 what it is that this context in your contemporaneous notes is being
22 A. Well, he says as a journalist you have to come on the spot. They
23 were never being collected. Omarska -- it's clear we're talking about
24 Omarska. And then he says there was only an interrogation process for a
25 particular number of Muslims and so on. We're -- we're talking about, and
1 it's perfectly clear to me and it was then, we're talking about Omarska,
2 and we're talking about the ITN pictures of Omarska. You've asked me if I
3 may say respectfully, many, many questions, unless you're simply reading
4 my statements onto the record about this discussion of this interview in
5 other cases.
6 This is one of the instances, including the tongue-biting
7 business. To me it is perfectly clear, as I recall it being perfectly
8 clear at the time to Dr. Stakic and his friend, that we were talking about
9 Omarska in 1992. We were talking about the footage of Omarska in 1992.
10 And I could be pardoned for saying there'd been an awful lot of these sort
11 of remarks, including those of the leadership, that we heard earlier. And
12 in my own country, the denial of these camps was becoming ubiquitous and
13 it -- I was not happy to hear it again.
14 Q. In fact, immediately within the contemporaneous notes, Dr. Stakic
15 proceeds to discuss, as you've read into the record, the type of
16 individuals that were detained in Omarska camp. So reconcile for me how
17 on one hand they would say A, they don't exist, but in the very next line,
18 the very next sentence of your contemporaneous notes, Dr. Stakic is
19 discussing and trying to explain the individuals who were detained at
21 A. Precisely. I think he was negating himself. I think he was
22 saying two different things at the same time. And that is not the only
23 time one has heard that sort of argument.
24 I repeat. It was clear to me then and clear to me now that
25 whether he says they were pictures of Serbs in Muslim camps, we were
1 talking about the pictures of Omarska about which we were talking, and
2 then he said -- he goes on to say that there were some sorts of inmates
3 held at Omarska.
4 Q. I recognise that your testimony is that it was clear to you
5 today -- or it was clear to you in 1992, 1996, and it's clear to you
6 today, but on June 7, 1996, you, under oath, said you actually don't
7 recall and that it wasn't clear to you as to who made the statement. In
8 fact, at that time, under both, you clearly state that Dr. Stakic was
9 interrupted by this other gentleman that you previously identified and
10 that the other gentleman, according to your sworn testimony on June 6,
11 1996, used the word "forgery." Isn't that true?
12 MR. KOUMJIAN: Objection. Argumentative. The witness has given
13 the answers to the questions already stated. Counsel is simply arguing
14 his view that it's inconsistent.
15 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Sustained.
16 MR. OSTOJIC:
17 Q. Help me with this, Mr. Vulliamy, if you may. During August 5th,
18 1992 and the article that appeared on August 7th, 1992, did you do any
19 follow-up interviews or have any conversations with Dr. Milomir Stakic
20 other than the February 1996 interview that we just talked about?
21 A. No.
22 Q. Did you expect Dr. Stakic to read your article and to give a
23 commentary on as you did for Dr. Kovacevic?
24 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Wasn't this a misleading question?
25 MR. OSTOJIC: I think earlier in his -- if I may explain. I think
1 Mr. Vulliamy earlier said that he wrote an article and that he didn't get
2 a letter or an objection from Dr. Kovacevic on the contents.
3 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Because he didn't send this article to
4 Mr. Kovacevic.
5 MR. OSTOJIC: I'm asking that just now about Dr. Stakic, if I may.
6 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: So it would be better to put it this way.
7 MR. OSTOJIC: Thank you.
8 Q. Did you send the article or in any way correspond to Dr. Stakic
9 relating to the events that you published on August 7th, 1992?
10 A. No, I did not. And by the way, the article was very widely
11 circulated at the time, translated, and indeed displayed across television
12 screens, which is not something I'm particularly proud of but it just
13 happened to be.
14 Q. Let me go back to this meeting of August 5th, 1992. Do you
15 remember, sir, during this hour and a half or two-hour meeting that in
16 fact you were so uptight with the fact that you weren't taken immediately
17 to Omarska camp that you turned your back on the people who were welcoming
18 you there and ignored completely this tape or video that the hosts were
19 trying to share and show you?
20 A. I don't know about turning my back on them, but if there is some
21 pictorial evidence of me expressing my displeasure at this continuing
22 obfuscation, then I wouldn't be surprised. I think that comes across
23 quite clearly in my book.
24 Q. And who got the video in order that it be played for the ITN and
25 the international press that was there. Who went and obtain the video?
1 A. I don't understand the question.
2 Q. Who brought tape into the room and put it in the video player and
3 played the tape?
4 A. I don't remember who physically put the cassette in the video
5 player, but it was Mr. Kovacevic who gave the sort of commentary and the
7 As regards the book, by the way, I'm not sure that Mr. Stakic's
8 authority, and Your Honour kindly gave me opportunity to make reference to
9 the book, I believe counsel have it, I don't, and haven't seen, it but I'm
10 not quite sure that there might not be some other reference or the
11 reference to Mr. Stakic being the mayor is the only one in the book, but
12 obviously it rather than I can be the judge of that.
13 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Unfortunately, the Judges are in the same
14 position as you in this common law setting where the Judges have no, yes,
15 possibility first to review the documents for the -- in preparation of the
16 hearing. But maybe it can be of assistance when making a reference back.
17 And if you identify something in your book even after your testimony, it
18 could be helpful, if you would send or draw our attention by sending a
19 letter to the OTP.
20 THE WITNESS: I'm grateful for that, and I'm sorry to interrupt
21 the proceedings. The thought just occurred to take you up on your offer.
22 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: You don't interrupt. You assist. Thank you.
23 MR. OSTOJIC:
24 Q. Well, assist me with this, sir, if you don't mind, Mr. Vulliamy.
25 As you sit here, do you recall at any time in your book whether or not you
1 mention that Dr. Stakic held any other position other than mayor of the
2 Prijedor municipality on or about August 5th, 1992?
3 A. I don't, but I'm not sure if that reference that you've picked out
4 is the only one. It may be. I'm just -- I just haven't seen it for a
5 very long time. And if it is, so be it. If it's not, then perhaps that
6 should be looked at. That's all I was saying.
7 Q. I'd like to now move to a different area, but with the guidance of
8 the Court. I'd like to discuss with you the February 1996 meeting that
9 you had with both Dr. Kovacevic and Dr. Stakic. Although I think I might
10 be no more than an hour and a half, it may be prudent or at least I would
11 suggest that it is, in order that we're more efficient to end the
12 proceedings now, unless the Court would rather that we proceed with the
13 questioning with respect to that area.
14 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: I don't think we have any time to lose, and I
15 would ask the Defence to proceed for another 30 minutes.
16 MR. OSTOJIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
17 Q. With respect to your meeting and interview with Dr. Kovacevic in
18 February of 1996, you write both in your contemporaneous notes and in your
19 aide-memoires that you shared with Dr. Kovacevic a bottle of homemade
20 brandy, namely slivovitz; correct?
21 A. Not the whole bottle, but the best part of it was consumed, in the
22 most part by himself.
23 Q. And in reading his notes into the record there, sir, did you read
24 anywhere within your contemporaneous notes that, in fact, Dr. Kovacevic,
25 during the interview that you were conducting of him, drank the better
1 part of this bottle of whiskey?
2 A. I --
3 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Sorry. It was not whiskey.
4 MR. OSTOJIC: I was hoping the translators would correct me.
5 Slivovitz. Thank you, Your Honour.
6 A. I think there might be some indentations, yes.
7 Q. You read from your contemporaneous notes today. I don't recall
8 it. I do note in your aide-memoires that you do actually make reference
9 to the time of the meeting and ultimately when it is that Dr. Kovacevic
10 drank these seven or eight shots of slivovitz during your meeting.
11 A. That would be about right. I'd say he had seven or eight. And
12 Mr. Cohen and I and the translator would have had one each.
13 Q. And it's true, as you testified in the Keraterm proceedings, last
14 June 2001, that Dr. Kovacevic, during that meeting, having consumed seven
15 to eight good-sized shots of homemade brandy, that he was at the very
16 least in no condition to drive, and you could not conclude that he was
18 A. I don't know if I said "good-sized". Not sort of full glasses but
19 shots, yes. And certainly by the standards of -- I do recall being asked
20 the question, and certainly by the standards of the laws which I hope
21 pertain to this country, he would not be in a fit state to drive.
22 Having slivovitz in the morning was perhaps not as uncommon in the
23 war and in that part of the world as it might seem to people here. In
24 fact, when you're in the trenches as I was, I used to start the day
25 reasonably frequently with something with a shot to warm the body and soul
1 and as did many of the soldiers. Certainly seven was a lot, but I
2 wouldn't want to -- yes. He was not sober for sure, but I wouldn't want
3 that to be interpreted perhaps by the rather more puritanical standards
4 that we would use.
5 Q. --
6 A. In wars and in these circumstances, people tend to have a drink.
7 Q. This was in 1996, February; correct?
8 A. Yes, after the war, granted, but I'm making a general point.
9 Q. Now, what I'd like to know is what your journalistic obligations,
10 were to interview a man, after having met with Michael Keegan and the OTP
11 on at least two prior occasions within the six-month period prior to your
12 meeting, what your obligations are to continue to conduct an interview
13 with a man who is obviously intoxicated.
14 A. My journalistic obligations were to my editor and my newspaper and
15 to the assignment that I had been given to go back and interview and talk
16 to these people if I could. I didn't know that I would. And if
17 Dr. Kovacevic chose to have more than the share of drink around the table,
18 that's his decision.
19 Q. And, sir, at no time did you think that you were taking advantage
20 of that interview process by continuing to ask him questions and having
21 him drink and become intoxicated before your very eyes; correct?
22 A. I wouldn't say intoxicated. I said not sober. He was talking
23 coherently, albeit in a fairly haunted way, and the answer to your
24 question is no, given the gravity of what was being discussed, his
25 apparent willingness, I would say eagerness, to talk. He said at one
1 point, "This is more relaxing than my professional problems." And the
2 owns is no. We were dealing with a matter of extremely serious nature.
3 We were talking about the deaths of very large numbers of people.
4 Q. How many people, in your mind, at that time were you discussing
5 with Dr. Kovacevic involving deaths in the Prijedor, Bosnia area?
6 A. I don't --
7 MR. KOUMJIAN: Objection, irrelevant of what he thought at that
8 time about the number of people who died.
9 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Sustained.
10 MR. OSTOJIC:
11 Q. Let me ask you this: Did you, in your article following the
12 interview that you had with Dr. Kovacevic and the series that you were
13 producing subsequent to the meetings that you had with Dr. Stakic and Dr.
14 Kovacevic, did you note in that article at any time that Dr. Kovacevic was
15 "Not sober"?
16 A. I don't know what words I used. I might have said drunk. You
17 said intoxicated.
18 Q. I'll go with whatever -- do you want to go with not sober, drunk,
19 or intoxicated? Any of the three is acceptable?
20 A. Well, let's agree that they're all pretty near the point.
21 THE REGISTRAR: If I may remind the parties to pause between
22 questions and answers. Thank you.
23 MR. OSTOJIC:
24 Q. During your meeting with Dr. Kovacevic, did you at any time tell
25 him that you were a witness or potential witness that was soon to testify,
1 actually within four months, in the Dusko Tadic trial which took place, as
2 we know, during the month of June 1996, and that you were actually
3 investigating to fulfil an obligation you made to the OTP relating to the
4 factors of systematic and widespread pattern in the Prijedor region?
5 A. No, I did not.
6 Q. Do you think journalistically and ethically and morally that you
7 had an obligation when interviewing someone about such serious matters as
8 you've described that you at the very least had the obligation to tell him
9 the purpose for your interview?
10 A. Well, the purpose of the interview was to publish an article. And
11 I did introduce myself as a member of the press although I did not give my
12 name because it was reasonably well known in the area, and I didn't
13 consider it prudent for my own safety to give my name because I was in the
14 area without permission, and I -- but I think if you're writing down notes
15 and the person knows you're from the press, it's a reasonable assumption
16 that you're going to write an article about what they say. At no point
17 was -- did Dr. Kovacevic say that what he was saying was off the record.
18 Q. Are you familiar with The New York Times editor by the name of
19 David Binder?
20 A. Yes, I am.
21 MR. KOUMJIAN: Do you want to ask the question before I make the
23 MR. OSTOJIC: That was the question. I think I got an answer, but
24 I'll check the transcript.
25 MR. KOUMJIAN: It's the next one I think I'm waiting for.
1 MR. OSTOJIC:
2 Q. I think you said Roger Cohen was also an individual who
3 accompanied you during these meetings and he was also from the New York
4 Times; correct?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Let me ask you this with the Court's permission, would you be
7 surprised to find that an editor of the New York Times would not only be
8 shocked but totally disappointed that had a journalist would breach their
9 ethics and morality in conducting interviews with individuals while not
10 identifying them and not sharing with them the actual true purpose for
11 those interviews?
12 MR. KOUMJIAN: Objection.
13 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Sustained.
14 MR. OSTOJIC: May I have the basis, Your Honour? Because
15 during -- if I may just reply, Your Honour.
16 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Please.
17 MR. OSTOJIC: During the questioning of numerous witnesses within
18 the Prosecution's case in chief we were criticised by the OTP for not
19 putting our case as they call it and I think the Court will that
20 Ms. Joanna Korner made that argument quite eloquently and asked that we
21 put our case to each of the witnesses. I don't understand the objection
22 that counsel made. I apologise for that. I don't understand the ruling
23 and would merely like for purposes of the record to have a complete
24 understanding of both the objection and the ruling if I may.
25 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Please.
1 MR. KOUMJIAN: The basis is the counsel cannot interject an
2 opinion by someone who is not called as a witness simply as a way to get
3 that before the Court and ask a witness would he be surprised to hear
4 that. When the Defence witnesses testify, I will not read to them
5 opinions that I receive from other witnesses, from experts regarding the
6 war in Bosnia and say, "Would you be surprised to learn this?" And it's
7 an improper question and counsel knows that. He wouldn't be able to do
8 that in the United States and he can't do that here.
9 MR. OSTOJIC: If I may reply.
10 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: I think we have covered this area enough, and we
11 have heard the opinion that the witness told us quite clearly that he had
12 no ethical problems emanating from the points you made, and I have also to
13 mention that I was liberal enough to allow your question, once again
14 trying to confuse the purpose of this interviewing Mr. Kovacevic, namely
15 when you mentioned in one sentence this special task and at the same time
16 making a link to a meeting or discussion with representatives of the OTP.
17 The witness has clearly stated there was no such link. And it is for the
18 witness, and we have heard the witness's opinion, and he didn't identify
19 any obstacles to proceed the way he did. There might be other opinions on
20 this issue, and this is true whenever specialists, be it lawyers, be it
21 journalists or whomsoever, they have different opinions on these issues,
22 and we should be more than glad that we have different opinions. So
23 therefore, it doesn't make sense to answer this question. Therefore, the
24 question is not admitted.
25 MR. OSTOJIC: May I proceed, Your Honour?
1 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Please.
2 MR. OSTOJIC: And if I can just clarify the point with respect to
3 specifically the nexus, if you will, between Mr. Vulliamy and the OTP, and
4 if I can just put this question to him, Your Honour.
5 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Let's hear the question.
6 MR. OSTOJIC: Of course.
7 Q. Mr. Vulliamy, when you interviewed Dr. Stakic, at that time you
8 knew you were going to be a witness in the Dusko Tadic case; correct?
9 A. Yes. But that's not to say there was a nexus between me and the
10 OTP any more than there's a nexus between any witness and the -- they
11 didn't call it the OTP then so far as I know.
12 Q. My point is I'm removing that equation. All I'm asking you is
13 whether or not you knew by conducting the interview of Dr. Kovacevic and
14 Dr. Stakic you knew that you were going to be a witness in the Dusko Tadic
15 trial four months later.
16 A. Yes. I hadn't actually received a summons, but I'd had the
17 meetings and I was aware that it was, if not extremely likely, that I was,
19 Q. And you discussed with Dr. Kovacevic at least, Dusko Tadic, did
20 you not?
21 A. I think he brought up Dusko Tadic. But certainly The Hague and
22 indeed the case came into the conversation.
23 Q. At no time while Dr. Kovacevic may have brought it up or yourself,
24 at no time did you inform him to say that you are a witness that is soon
25 to testify in the Tadic trial; correct?
1 A. No. At no time did I tell him I was to testify. And if my memory
2 serves me, he -- he introduced Dusko Tadic by way of making a distinction
3 between people who had actually killed other people and people who hadn't.
4 Q. Did you and Mr. Roger Cohen who was also at that time with The New
5 York Times have a discussion as to whether or not you should honestly
6 inform the individuals that are interviewing of both your status and the
7 purpose of your interview?
8 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: I don't think -- I think we have covered this
9 area already this morning and now it's exhausted, and it's not for the
10 Defence counsel to blame a witness on this issue.
11 MR. OSTOJIC: Your Honour, maybe I could ask the question. I'm
12 not sure if I understand, respectfully, your ruling. I'm not putting
13 blame. All I asked was, if I may, whether or not Mr. Vulliamy had a
14 conversation with the other reporter who was there, Roger Cohen, and I
15 identified him just for the record as being specifically from The New York
16 Times. I don't believe that we've covered that. I'm not trying to blame
17 the witness for having that discussion or not having the discussion,
18 because I don't know if they had it or they didn't have it. So forgive me
19 for asking an inarticulate question.
20 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: It is related to the entire line of questions
21 you put now and you put already this morning, and I think this area is
22 really covered. We heard the answers of the witness twice, and therefore,
23 any additional questions on this issue would be more than repetitive.
24 MR. OSTOJIC: Your Honour, I'd like to move now to this area with
25 Dr. Stakic, specifically the interview. I think it would be prudent, I
1 think because some of the questions have been perhaps inarticulate and the
2 Court has sustained numerous objections from the OTP if we finish at this
3 point and reconvene tomorrow at 9.30.
4 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: As the parties know and I just asked for the
5 time elapsed during examination-in-chief and cross-examination, taking in
6 addition in account a huge part of the examination-in-chief was used for
7 reading out the notes, the cross-examination should not cover more than 60
8 minutes tomorrow morning, and then there is time for re-examination and
9 questions from the Judges and additional questions emanating from these
10 questions for the next 30 minutes. So that we have to conclude the
11 testimony after all in all 90 minutes tomorrow. And I would ask the
12 registry to inform the witness for our next deposition to be taken that
13 this deposition taking starts not earlier than 11.30.
14 This concludes today's hearing if there are not mandatory
15 contributions by the parties.
16 MR. KOUMJIAN: There is one. If I could request permission. At
17 the beginning of today's testimony, the witness indicated his concern
18 about some confidential information, an address I believe he specifically
19 said, on his notes if there is no objection, may I have permission, if the
20 Defence does not object, to discuss this with the witness for five
21 minutes, ten minutes now after we conclude Court?
22 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: We could go into private session. I think
23 private session is enough for these purposes.
24 MR. KOUMJIAN: We could do that or I could discuss it privately
25 and just report whether we have a problem or not. We may be able to
1 resolve it between us.
2 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: You mentioned it earlier and asked closed
3 session. I think its it's not necessary. You know the efforts of a
4 closed session in this courtroom.
5 MR. KOUMJIAN: Yes.
6 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Therefore, I ask kindly to go into private
7 session now.
8 [Private session]
21 [Depositions Hearing interrupted for Status
1 [Depositions Hearing resumes]
12 --- Whereupon the Depositions Hearing adjourned
13 at 4.14 p.m., to be reconvened on Wednesday, the
14 18th day of September, 2002, at 9.30 a.m.