1 Wednesday, 11 December 2002
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 2.17 p.m.
5 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Good afternoon. Please be seated.
6 If I can ask the representative of the registry to call the case,
8 THE REGISTRAR: Good afternoon. Case number IT-97-24-T, the
9 Prosecutor versus Milomir Stakic.
10 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: And the appearances, please.
11 MR. KOUMJIAN: Good afternoon, Your Honours. Nicholas Koumjian,
12 with Ruth Karper for the Prosecution.
13 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Thank you.
14 And for the Defence.
15 MR. OSTOJIC: Good afternoon, Your Honours. John Ostojic along
16 with Danilo Cirkovic on behalf of Dr. Milomir Stakic.
17 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Thank you.
18 Before we hopefully can conclude Witness DD, let me ask what about
19 the list for the witnesses to be called the first -- yes, the first eight
20 days in January. This list was due today.
21 MR. OSTOJIC: That is correct, Your Honour, and we have the list
22 here that we can distribute to the Court and to the OTP. However, just as
23 a matter of reference or note, it is just a single-page list. We would
24 ask that it be kept confidential, because at this point there are some
25 within this list that may be seeking protective measures and some that
1 have, but what we've done is identified them by the number from our 65 ter
2 disclosures as well as their full name. So if I can just apply for that
3 cautionary measure to be utilised for these exhibits.
4 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Right. I think there are no objections. It may
5 be treated confidential until further notice.
6 And I take it that the proffers for these witnesses have been
7 distributed? For example, number 15 was on the list of missing proffers.
8 MR. OSTOJIC: Yes, Your Honour. It's my understanding that now
9 the OTP is in possession of all the proffers for those witnesses that
10 we've just submitted.
11 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: As you know, also the Judges are extremely
12 grateful if we have the proffers, and we missed until now number 15.
13 MR. OSTOJIC: It's also my understanding, Your Honour, that we've
14 submitted the proffers to be delivered to the Court as well. We can -- we
15 can verify that. And if not, we'll get it at the next break to secure
16 that the Court has it.
17 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Yes. Apparently it was distributed right now.
18 Then any other additional issues? It was my understanding that
19 the order of appearances should change during this week. Correct?
20 Especially for today.
21 MR. OSTOJIC: That is accurate, Your Honour. And if I can just
22 explain. It's not necessarily a change, but when we anticipate a certain
23 length of time for a witness, we cannot and do not anticipate the length
24 of time that the OTP will undertake to cross. So our schedule is based on
25 our best guesstimate, if you will, and we had scheduled today's witnesses,
1 but obviously we're still on Witness 05, DD, and the following witness
2 will be as scheduled in the same order, which is Witness number 44.
3 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Right.
4 MR. OSTOJIC: Who also, if I'm not incorrect, the Court has
5 granted protective measures, both pseudonym, facial distortion, and voice
6 distortion. He'll proceed next in the order that we suggested.
7 Following Witness 044, we will be calling Witness number 052,
8 whose name is Vladimir Makovski. He is not -- is not seeking protective
9 measures, and that's why I identify him also by his name and number.
10 Following Mr. Makovski, the Defence will call Witness number 045.
11 We do not anticipate asking for protective measures for Witness 045,
12 however, I have not in detail discussed with this witness his desires, if
13 any, regarding that, so I'd prefer not to identify him at this moment.
14 But I don't anticipate that we will be seeking those measures for him.
15 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: All right.
16 MR. OSTOJIC: So those three witnesses for the remainder of the
17 week we think will adequately fulfil the time period -- or at least we
18 anticipate that it will, especially given or in light of the first
19 witness, DD, having taken the time that it did, which is -- we're not
20 objecting it to, obviously. We welcome it. And we think that that will
21 be all the witnesses we will call for this week.
22 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: You indicated earlier that there would be an
23 additional two witnesses. And we have tomorrow and we have Friday. The
24 plenary for Friday has been cancelled, but this Trial Chamber will
25 continue and is ready to hear the witnesses that are present in The
1 Hague. It should never be the case that we send a witness home without
2 having heard the witness. So therefore, please take care that the
3 witnesses still stay in The Hague and we can continue.
4 MR. OSTOJIC: I'm in agreement to proceed. I think that we'll
5 take up the entire period of the week with the remaining three witnesses,
6 however. With respect to Witness number 71, he's not coming to The
7 Hague. He is not in The Hague. And we will not be calling him this week.
8 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: And then the final one? There was one in
10 MR. OSTOJIC: I think the Court is referring to Witness number 68
12 There were some personal problems that had arisen with respect to
13 Witness number 68. We are trying to get all the information in connection
14 with this witness. We will be to inform the Court more fully on that
15 hopefully later this evening or tomorrow morning in connection with his
16 personal circumstances that I've discussed with him.
17 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: But the witness is in The Hague?
18 MR. OSTOJIC: That witness is, yes, Your Honour.
19 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: So in principle, we expect to hear also Witness
20 number 086 from the 65 ter list. But in future, we should make reference
21 only to the final Defence list prepared by the registry.
22 MR. OSTOJIC: Just so the record is clear, Your Honour, 086 is not
23 at The Hague, but 068 is.
24 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Yes.
25 MR. OSTOJIC: Well, the record says that you're requesting 086 on
1 the transcript.
2 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Yes. And it's 068. I don't want to mention the
3 name, 3rd March birthday. Correct?
4 Okay. Anything in addition?
5 MR. OSTOJIC: I do, Your Honour, if I may, since I have the
6 floor. Thank you.
7 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Yes.
8 MR. OSTOJIC: Your Honour, a matter arose yesterday in questioning
9 by the Court, and I would just like some guidance on it if I may. With
10 all due respect to the Court, the Court asked a witness a question. It is
11 not my practice, if you will, to object unless I feel that it is of utmost
12 necessity, particularly with respect to the OTP witnesses.
13 My question, if the Court would be kind enough to assist me in
14 understanding it, relates to the question Your Honour asked whether
15 Keraterm was similarly or was it known to be the same type of institution
16 as Omarska in 1992. With all due respect to the Court, 1992 in August, as
17 we all know, the international press uncovered Omarska and Keraterm as
18 well as Trnopolje. There was much media in 1992 after that. I don't want
19 to utilise the answer given by the witness, although I'll obviously --
20 it's the Court's discretion to advise us, hopefully, on this, to suggest
21 that that was known to this individual prior or after certain dates. I
22 think the individual answered the question. There was some perhaps
23 confusion, and he answered it in the affirmative.
24 I would ask if it's necessary for the Court to determine whether
25 this witness knew, since he was not ever physically at Keraterm, based on
1 his testimony, but did visit Omarska once and Trnopolje on three separate
2 occasions that, if the Court wishes, I can ask that if I'm given an
3 opportunity on redirect or just to clarify it. Because I think as the
4 transcript reads now, it's left too broad for interpretation. Again, I
5 say with the most respect. It is just -- we're looking for guidance and
6 dates and times are extremely important for us, I think as the Court has
8 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: I think it would be for the Defence if they are
9 not satisfied with the one or other answer and they might feel that an
10 answer was ambiguous to address this issue in the re-examination.
11 MR. OSTOJIC: Thank you.
12 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: So that's the reason why we proceeded this way
13 before you started your re-examination.
14 Anything else?
15 MR. OSTOJIC: There is one other point, if I may, for the record,
16 Your Honour. Unfortunately, as I stated my practice with respect to
17 objecting is to allow the flow of questions and answer to proceed
18 accordingly. Regrettably yesterday in part -- I think it was page 68 of
19 the transcript, if I'm not mistaken, Mr. Koumjian asked the question,
20 which was a compound question, which also included the language when he
21 was inquiring as to this witness's discussion with the Defence team, and
22 he referenced to the extent -- I'm paraphrasing it, but I think I have it
23 accurate. He was asked to testify to items that the Defence would allow
24 him to testify to, the items that the Defence would like you to testify
1 Again, I think it's an inappropriate question. It's not a
2 question of the Defence wishing him. He came here as a witness to
3 testify. And we believe he did give much testimony, as we know from the
4 two days. It's that reference that I would hope that the OTP does not
5 continue to ask our witnesses. Not if they met with the Defence or when
6 they met with the Defence, but not to suggest that the Defence would in
7 any manner manipulate or seek somehow to distort the testimony of
8 witnesses. They are under oath and know their obligations once they take
9 that oath. The Court has warned numerous witnesses in connection with
10 their obligation. The Defence objects to the OTP suggesting that the
11 Defence attorneys or our investigators would in any manner suggest to
12 witnesses to provide certain answers. So we just for the record would
13 like to make that objection.
14 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: We have heard this objection, but we have to
15 come back to this later when we have the necessary time to discuss whether
16 or not the proffers provided by the Defence orally and in writing were, in
17 fact, misleading and brought this Trial Chamber to a decision which would
18 not have been the outcome of our discussion whether or not a witness is
19 relevant and -- but this concern has to be expressed in the presence of
20 both Defence counsel.
21 The Prosecution, please.
22 MR. KOUMJIAN: Your Honour, I wanted to raise two matters, and one
23 deals with the proffers, but perhaps it's better to deal with that, as
24 Your Honour suggested, in the presence of both Defence counsel. But we
25 were particularly concerned with the proffer of one of the upcoming
1 witnesses. I believe it's number 45, that's being an example of an
2 inadequate proffer. Even if that is accurate, it's just inadequate as far
3 as the detail provided. But we're prepared to proceed for the rest of
4 this week.
5 The other matter I just wanted to raise briefly is that we did
6 inform the Defence regarding one of the witnesses who previously testified
7 who the Defence in their motion identified as a person that they would
8 have had other questions for had they had the Rule 68 material submitted
9 by the Prosecution in the summons interviews. And that's Mr. Marcelovic.
10 I just want to remind the Defence that he is here today. He's here this
11 week. And he's available this week to answer further relevant questions,
12 if the Court finds that there are relevant questions arising from the
13 material that was provided to the Defence after Mr. Marcelovic testified.
14 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Thank you. But I deliberately didn't ask this
15 question because I take it that having received the letter by the
16 Prosecution in due time, it would be for the Defence to indicate if
17 there -- they believe there is a necessity to hear a witness again, to
18 cross-examine a witness again. And the same holds true for the two
19 witnesses to come in January. I take it that the Defence does not have
20 the intention to restart the cross-examination of the three persons
21 mentioned in the same letter.
22 MR. OSTOJIC: If I may reply.
23 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Please.
24 MR. OSTOJIC: If the Court recalls, on December 3rd, 2002, the OTP
25 sent us a letter which identified only one witness, Witness Q, that was
1 going to be present this week to testify. That did relate to our motion
2 for a mistrial, it was denied by the Court. At that time we responded,
3 namely on December 4th, 2002, and suggested that we do feel there is a
5 Upon consultation with Dr. Stakic and the rest of the Defence
6 team, we determined, based upon the evidence that was produced to us
7 following the Rule 68 disclosures, namely of those five individuals and
8 specifically of the one and that the Court, I think, is well aware of, we
9 decided not to question Witness Q. Subsequent to that - although on the
10 same day, we believe, perhaps the 4th of December - we received another
11 letter from the OTP identifying three additional witnesses with dates upon
12 which they're expected to testify.
13 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Right.
14 MR. OSTOJIC: We immediately responded to the first letter,
15 Witness Q, which the Court referenced. The Defence likewise respond to
16 the second letter, which identified these three individuals. Within that
17 letter, based upon my recollection, we requested that we would like to
18 re-examine the witness that is here this week. Actually, it was Witness
19 number 21. I'm not sure if he was a private witness. I could identify
20 him in the letter he was identified. So I don't believe that he is a
21 private witness, and the OTP is nodding, it is a public witness, Muharem
23 We do want to question Mr. Murselovic again. Based on the 68
24 disclosures of the members -- or purported members of the Crisis Staff in
25 1992. And that's what we indicated to the OTP at that time, and we also
1 carbon copied the Court specifically with respect to that.
2 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: The Court is only in the possession of the
3 letter I mentioned before, as of 4 December 2002, mentioning three
4 witnesses, one of them being in The Hague on 11 December. And as opposed
5 to the other letter of the same date, we didn't receive any reaction from
6 the Defence. We took it that it's not your intention to continue with the
7 cross-examination of this witness. But if necessary, we can react
8 immediately. But then, please, take into account that what we stated
9 earlier: You have to demonstrate that on the basis of concrete questions
10 that you weren't able to put these concrete questions to the witnesses
11 when they had been here in The Hague and that these new questions are
12 emanating from the statements missing at that point in time, I have never
13 seen an answer related to Witness Murselovic.
14 MR. OSTOJIC: With all due respect, Your Honour, we can check with
15 the registrar. We did file with the registry a letter responding
16 specifically to the letter of the 4th of December, 2003 [sic], and we
17 copied the Court. I'll check with the registry. The OTP, I believe, is
18 in possession of that letter and we filed it the same day that we did the
19 other letter, and I believe it was the 4th of December, 2002.
20 Within that letter, we asked and identified and put on notice the
21 OTP and the Court that we would like to discuss the issue and we are
22 seeking leave to continue to question the witness. The Court has never
23 set parameters as to how far in advance we should outline our specific
24 questions of the witness. I'm prepared, having reviewed his summary in
25 part this morning, to advise the Court the areas in which I'd like to
1 touch upon with Mr. Murselovic.
2 In that same letter, just by memory, I specifically state that
3 with the remaining two witnesses - and the Defence reserves our right on
4 this - with the remaining two witnesses, since they'll be called sometime
5 in mid-January, that we notified the OTP - and it's outlined specifically
6 in that letter that we submitted to the registry, to the OTP, carbon
7 copying each of the three Judges - that we reserve our right at that time
8 upon further evaluation to determine whether we will be asking questions
9 of the remaining two individuals.
10 I just don't want to record to reflect that we did not respond.
11 We did respond. We responded in writing. It was filed in the normal
12 channels. The Defence cannot and does not follow up to see if the Court
13 did or did not receive that letter. We're confident it was received by
14 the OTP because we talked about it. We were confident since our prior
15 filings were always received that that one likewise would be given to the
17 MR. KOUMJIAN: Just to inform counsel, that I'm not aware that we
18 received the letter. I know the OTP is a large institution. Ms. Karper
19 is not aware of it and Ms. Sutherland is not aware of it. Ms. Korner is
20 away, so I'm not sure of whether it's possible that that letter somehow
21 got to her office without reaching us. But none of us are aware of the
22 receipt of a letter from the Defence.
23 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: May I ask Madam Registrar whether there was a
25 THE REGISTRAR: I will double-check, Your Honour, if you will
1 allow me.
2 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: We are taken by surprise, admittedly. We are
3 discussing this -- the issue what witness to be heard the next day, day by
4 day, and you had possibilities enough to address this issue orally. If
5 you believe you have written a letter, then you could have done it orally
6 in addition. If you were under the impression that the Chamber has not
7 received and not responded to your letter.
8 MR. OSTOJIC: That --
9 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: So but let's -- let's not discuss. Let's
10 cross-check immediately. The Chamber is prepared to rule on your letter,
11 whether the threshold is met, indicated in the hearing of 25 November
12 2002, and we are prepared to proceed with this witness today. Hopefully
13 he has not yet left The Hague.
14 May I ask the Prosecutor.
15 MR. KOUMJIAN: He has not left The Hague. And I'll have
16 Ms. Karper try to arrange to make sure he doesn't leave today or tomorrow
17 until we hear an answer from the Court. We'll notify --
18 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Thank you for this, because this has priority,
19 and we would find a possibility to hear, if necessary, this witness as
21 MR. KOUMJIAN: I do have one other brief matter. Just to ask the
22 Defence if the order -- the witnesses for the first week, we were given
23 them in the order of their 65 ter number, realising that things can
24 change. Is this the, at the moment at least, the intended order in which
25 they will be called? It would be helpful to us, and I'm sure, the Court
1 to have some idea of the order of witnesses.
2 MR. OSTOJIC: Yes. We believe that is correct.
3 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: And may I ask -- I just saw it, it reads the
4 first week of January. Please recall the order was related to the first
5 working -- the first eight working days of January 2003.
6 MR. OSTOJIC: That's correct, Your Honour. If the Court recalls,
7 we start, I believe, on the 8th of January, which is three days of that
9 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Right.
10 MR. OSTOJIC: So we wouldn't have envisioned to call one of those
11 witnesses. So that does -- it is for that first eight- to ten-day period,
12 work-day period in January.
13 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Thank you for this clarification. I can't see
14 any other administrative matters, so therefore may I ask the usher,
15 please, to escort the witness into the courtroom.
16 May I ask Madam Registrar to be prepared to present document S169.
17 [The witness entered court]
18 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Good afternoon, Witness DD. Please be seated.
19 This is a totally different environment, but the same holds true.
20 You are still protected in the same way as it was during the last two
21 days. And no doubt you are still under solemn declaration.
22 May I ask you before starting the first -- with the first
23 questions, do you want to add anything to your testimony of yesterday?
24 WITNESS: WITNESS DD [Resumed]
25 [Witness answered through interpreter].
1 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters cannot hear the witness. The
2 interpreters cannot hear the witness.
3 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: What's the problem? The interpreters cannot
4 hear the witness. Is it resolved now?
5 May I ask you once again to try and find out whether the mic is
6 working now. Do you want to add anything to your testimony of yesterday?
7 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters cannot hear the witness.
8 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: The interpreters can't hear you.
9 THE INTERPRETER: Can the witness say something, please.
10 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Can you try once again to answer the question
11 whether or not you want to add something to your testimony of yesterday.
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I would like to -- I would just like
13 to add something in response to a question that was asked of me yesterday
14 during my testimony in connection with the name of the person who held --
15 or actually holds a responsible function, a responsible office in the
16 relevant ministry. Was that your question more or less?
17 It is possible that I didn't understand the question. I mean, I
18 think I said I didn't know, but maybe the question was who the first man
19 in the police is in the relevant ministry, the entity ministry.
20 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: My question was related to the name of the
21 prosecutor general.
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Oh, I see. No, I don't know.
23 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Okay. Thank you.
24 Questioned by the Court: [Continued]
25 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Witness DD, in 1992 you were the age of 22,
2 A. Correct.
3 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Did you like to play soccer in your youth, or
5 A. I was not much of a sportsman, not much of a football player, no.
6 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Have you ever been to the Ljubija football
8 A. Yes, of course.
9 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: And can you explain the environment. Was there
10 only a football place as such? Was there an area for other athletes as
11 well? Was there a building for the athletes? Please try to give us a
12 short overview of what you recall as the football stadium of Ljubija.
13 A. Well, I don't need to recall. It is situated in the immediate
14 vicinity of my house, and there is an adjacent building which was used
15 before as a changing room for athletes.
16 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: You said "which was used before." And I think
17 you covered already --
18 A. Yes. It is still used for the same purpose, the ground floor, I
20 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: And in the meantime, was it used for other
21 purposes as well, this building?
22 A. At the beginning of the war, it functioned as the seat of the
23 military police.
24 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: The entire building?
25 A. I guess. The building is not very large.
1 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Have you been in this building during the time
2 you were mobilised, as you said, "about seven days in 1992"?
3 A. No, I did not have an opportunity to be there. This was not my --
4 the seat where I had to go. Or rather, there was no need for me to be
5 there, even if I had an opportunity.
6 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: And so was the sports grounds, as such, when the
7 changing rooms were used by the forces you mentioned before, was it
8 possible to play football or soccer in this area, on the place as such?
9 A. It is possible that it was possible to use it for this purpose,
10 but nobody cared much about football in those days. There were no
11 physical obstacles at the stadium. Even in those days, it was still open
12 on both sides.
13 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: What do you mean by "open on both sides"? Is it
14 your testimony that there was no fence around the football stadium as
16 A. Yes, it was open. One side of the football stadium -- on one side
17 of the football stadium is a forest, and there is no fence on that side --
18 or rather, there is some kind of fence, but it is not a continuous fence.
19 There are gaps in it, and that's how it is today, as far as I know. As
20 for the lower part of the football stadium, there used to be a fence which
21 is actually still there, but it also has a gap -- a 10-metre gap
22 approximately, and this is all very visible, because the fence itself is
23 transparent. It is just a wire mesh fence.
24 On the side of the road the area is not that visible. You cannot
25 see the stadium with the naked eye. You can see the adjacent building
1 though. And the upper side of the stadium also has an adjacent building,
2 which is connected to the fence on the upper side, and it has a large
3 entrance gate.
4 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: We are covered three sides. What about the
5 fourth? Was there a fence or was there a wall or something similar?
6 A. I believe I have described all four sides; one side being the
7 wood, the lower side, the fence with gaps, the side next to the road as I
8 said is not that visible. The stadium is not visible from the side of the
9 road with the naked eye; only the adjacent building. And the fourth side
10 consists of this other adjacent building. I believe I was clear.
11 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Was --
12 A. Excuse me. Also, you cannot see the stadium from the upper side
13 with the naked eye except when the gate is open. It's not only my
14 opinion; it's a fact.
15 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Was there a wall on one side?
16 A. Yes, there was a wall on the side of the road, which I described.
17 This is the physical obstacle that blocks the view of the stadium and the
18 stands, which are situated in the middle of the stadium and are somewhat
19 higher than the fence. That is the area that I said was not visible with
20 the naked eye. And also, from the upper side, you cannot see the stadium
21 except for when the gate is opened. You cannot see it through this
22 adjacent building that I mentioned.
23 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Was this football stadium to the best of your
24 recollection, living very close to this area, ever used as a detention
1 A. The only thing I know was that at the time persons were taken
2 there to be interviewed. As for any lengthy stay, no, I don't think that
3 there was any talk about that.
4 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Were they brought to the building or to the
5 football ground as such for this, as you called it -- in order to be
7 A. I think that they were brought both to the building and to the
8 area next to the football pitch. Although, I never entered the premises
9 at that time. I was never there. This is what I heard from other people,
10 when talking to other people. But I personally never visited the area. I
11 was never there, so I cannot give you a specific answer.
12 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Did you ever hear shooting from this area?
13 A. Yes, I did.
14 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Did you ever see corpses in this area after the
16 A. No. I didn't. Shooting could be heard even during the day and
17 during the night intermittently, which doesn't necessarily mean that
18 people were being killed. Though, I do not know the real answer, because
19 I was never there.
20 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: From your answer, I take it that you speak about
21 people that -- "they were brought to this area." Who is "they"?
22 A. Well, civilians.
23 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: And what is --
24 A. I indicated that people were sometimes brought there.
25 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Thank you. May I ask the usher to present
1 Exhibit number S169 to the witness. And may it be -- please be put on the
3 Could you please be so kind with the help of a marker to indicate
4 where you lived in 1992.
5 A. This is Ljubija here.
6 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: May the usher please bring a dark marker to the
7 witness that you can mark your place of residence on this map.
8 A. [Marks] Is this enough?
9 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Right. And the football stadium was where,
11 A. On the photograph or on the map?
12 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: On the map, please.
13 A. Here, in this area, in the area of Ljubija town.
14 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: You have marked the place of your own residence
15 by a cross. Could you please mark the place of the football stadium with
16 a circle on the map.
17 A. If this is my place of residence, then the stadium is here
18 approximately. It -- the map is much too small for me to indicate the
20 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Thank you for this. And may this Exhibit number
21 S169 with the additional marks on it be called S169A, so that we know the
22 source of these additional marks.
23 May I ask you, when you have the car before you, did you ever
24 drive with your [redacted] to Brisevo?
25 A. No not to Brisevo?
1 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: With your own car to Brisevo?
2 A. Not during the war operations.
3 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Had you ever heard about a checkpoint between
4 Brisevo and Ljubija.
5 A. There are several roads between Brisevo and Ljubija that can be
6 used. I didn't know them. I never went to Brisevo in those days. I
7 never had an opportunity to go there.
8 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Okay. Thank you. For the moment we don't need
9 any longer this special map.
10 In the beginning of your testimony in chief, you mentioned that
11 there were several camps for different purposes, as you stated. What
12 would you call a camp in this sense in the area of the municipality of
14 A. What camp exactly do you have in mind or generally speaking, the
15 notion of a camp?
16 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: I think we were clear enough when we discussed
17 Omarska and then you made a distinction opposed to Trnopolje. Were there
18 other to the best of your recollection, let's call it detention
19 facilities, detention buildings -- you mentioned in the connection with
20 the football stadium that this place was used for the purpose of
21 interviewing civilians. Were there other such places you recall?
22 A. In the municipality of Prijedor?
23 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Right.
24 A. I know about Keraterm, Omarska, and Trnopolje, where people were
25 detained for longer periods of time. And I also said the Ljubija football
1 stadium, when people were kept there, they were kept there only for very
2 short, as far as I know.
3 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: And you recall no other place in the
4 municipality of Prijedor serving for the same purposes as, for example,
5 the football stadium and Ljubija?
6 A. No, I don't remember.
7 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: I really understand that it was difficult for
8 you on the basis of a small picture to identify Omarska.
9 May the usher please present document S15-18 to the witness, and
10 please put it on the ELMO.
11 Does this reproduction assist you in finding out from which side
12 you approached Omarska at that time, when you drove there with the
13 second-last bus?
14 A. I said yesterday that it could not assist me. I was there for the
15 first time next to this big building, and I recognised the area according
16 to the photograph, but it was ten years ago, so I don't remember. And I
17 only stayed there very briefly. And I'm not familiar enough with the area
19 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: So it is your testimony that you saw only the
20 building from outside and you have no own direct knowledge what happened
21 inside the building, what happened on the entire area depicted here on
22 this still? Is it correct?
23 A. Yes, that's what I stated yesterday, and I still abide by what I
24 said because I stood only at the gate of the compound. I didn't stray
25 away from the bus. I didn't go inside the buildings at all, no.
1 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: And to come back to another question I put to
2 you yesterday: Having discussed now Ljubija football stadium, Omarska,
3 Trnopolje, what would be your categorisation of Keraterm? What was the
4 purpose of Keraterm in 1992 from the perspective of a civilian living in
5 the municipality of Prijedor and for professional purposes, sometimes
6 driving to Prijedor and being in Prijedor?
7 A. As I said yesterday, I know about the Keraterm camp. I know that
8 its purpose was to have an opportunity to control a certain number of
9 civilians in one place. The implication being that they did not go there
10 on their own free will. I don't know if this is enough.
11 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: And you knew this in 1992, correct?
12 A. I knew about this on account of the stories that I heard. I never
13 had a chance to get closer to the camp or visit the camp itself.
14 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Correct. This is what I understood from your
15 testimony. But you heard about that already in 1992 from other persons
16 telling you stories they have heard from Keraterm, correct?
17 A. Yes. But this was only after a lot of people had already been
18 released from Omarska and Trnopolje.
19 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: May I ask you in this connection another
20 question: On page 61, line 23 of Monday's transcript, you immediately
21 answered, when only being there for an extremely short period of time at
22 Omarska, what was the reason for you to ask whether the persons being
23 there were "physically or mentally mistreated"? What brought you to this
25 A. I asked that question in Trnopolje, as far as I recall, and not in
1 Omarska. And I didn't have an opportunity to contact anyone in Omarska,
2 anyone from the civilians who were already detained there.
3 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: But then let me repeat the same question in
4 relation to Trnopolje: What was the reason? Why did you ask this
6 A. To the individuals in Trnopolje? Is that what you mean?
7 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Right.
8 A. For purposes of information. I wanted to see how they were
9 treated, what was the treatment generally speaking. I don't think it was
10 a stupid question at the time. And it was not ill-intentioned.
11 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: I know that you answered this question already,
12 the one and the other time, but I have to come back to this. Is it
13 correct that all in all three of your relatives were in Trnopolje?
14 A. Two relatives and one friend, and a few acquaintances, some of
15 whom I knew better than others.
16 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: What would be your estimate, the number of
17 persons all in all who you knew at the time being in Trnopolje?
18 A. Hard for me to say. I really can't give you an answer to that
19 question. I knew quite a few people there, but I wouldn't be able to give
20 you their exact number. It would be wrong to say that I didn't know those
21 people, especially those who were from Ljubija itself.
22 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: But did you know about the ethnicity of these
24 A. But of course. Ljubija is a relatively small place.
25 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: And so were they Serbs? Were they Croats, or
1 Muslims predominantly?
2 A. Croats and Muslims were detained in Trnopolje.
3 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: You mentioned that it was possible for you to
4 bring the one or other person back to their homes when released from
5 Trnopolje. What about the three persons you mentioned just beforehand,
6 the two relatives and the one friend? They were all released on the basis
7 of Serbian guarantees? Correct?
8 A. I already answered that question to the Prosecutor, if I can
9 remember. I took my friend home personally. I don't know who signed the
10 release documents for him. His wife kept it a secret. She came with me
11 to pick him up. At the end of the day, I wasn't that interested in
12 finding out who had signed the document. The most important thing was for
13 him to go home, obviously.
14 As for one of my uncles, it was my father who was the guarantor,
15 and he escorted him home. I don't know how they then went to Prijedor,
16 and from Prijedor to Ljubija they travelled on a local bus which had
17 already started running between the two places.
18 And the third person, my other uncle, got the guarantee from a
19 taxi driver whom I don't know. I only know that there was some
20 compensation, some money involved in that. And that same taxi driver
21 brought my uncle home. My uncle never told me how much he had to pay for
22 that. He always shrugged it off and always said, "It doesn't really
23 matter. What matters is that I'm now home." That is what I know
24 personally about these three men. I don't know about others, whether they
25 had to have the written guarantees of relatives, Serbs, friends, Serbs, or
1 maybe they had to pay for that.
2 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: May I ask you: Did you ever discuss with these
3 three persons, especially with those you escorted home yourself, about
4 that what happened to them and to others in Trnopolje? Did they speak
5 about any beatings or other violence vis-a-vis detainees?
6 A. No. They didn't tell me. I did ask them, and they said that
7 during the short time that they had been in Trnopolje, nothing like that
8 had happened. So we didn't talk much about that period of time. I didn't
9 really find it necessary to talk too much about that. The most important
10 thing was that they were home, that they were free. And now, after so
11 much time has gone by, we really don't talk about it. It never occurs to
12 us to reminisce on those times.
13 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: But wouldn't you yourself find it surprising
14 that when coming first to such a camp, you immediately asked what about
15 "physical or mental mistreatment"? And then, later on having the
16 possibility to discuss this with your relative and friend, or you didn't
17 discuss this at all? Is really your testimony under solemn declaration
18 that you never discussed these questions and you never heard about
19 beatings and other kind of violence in Trnopolje camp?
20 A. I've already said that the first time I met with them, I asked
21 them how they were, how they were treated. I said that yesterday and the
22 day before. They answered, "The conditions are not ideal. The food is
23 not good. Their accommodation is very poor. Some sleep on beds, some
24 sleep on the floor." And they also said that nobody was beating them or
25 otherwise ill-treating them. That's what my cousins told me later on when
1 we got home. We never discussed it again.
2 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: And you never discussed with them the name of
4 A. Maybe then at that time, but not later on. If we don't talk about
5 things, we can't mention any names, can we? If they don't want to talk
6 about it, if they do not want to dwell upon it, why should I insist on
7 that? Why should I be interested in talking about it?
8 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Quite clear. But you answered, "Maybe then at
9 that time." You are under solemn declaration, and I have to insist,
10 please answer the question. Did you discuss the name of -- the
11 personality of Mr. Kuruzovic with one or all the three of them?
12 A. I can't remember. It was a long time ago. It was ten years ago.
13 I really did not expect such questions, which doesn't imply that I'm not
14 prepared to answer them. I myself mentioned Trnopolje. Already the day
15 before yesterday I told you how I got there the first time, the second
16 time, and the third time. If the Defence counsel had not asked me that, I
17 would have mentioned it anyway.
18 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: My final question would be: Who do you believe
19 was not the Urije, but on the basis of the title, the main political
20 responsible person in Prijedor municipality and on what factual basis do
21 you come to this assessment?
22 A. I can't give you an answer to that. I know that there were some
23 military officers as representatives of the military. One of them was
24 Colonel Arsic. Then there was Radmilo Zeljaja. I believe that his rank
25 was also colonel. The late Simo Drljaca, who was the chief of the police.
1 And there were also people from the civilian authorities. Those people
2 had most influence at that time.
3 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: So that the transcript is clear and unambiguous,
4 it reads now, "There were also people from the civilian authorities.
5 Those people had most influence at that time." Could you please comment
6 on this. And as you did it in relation to military personnel, what were
7 the persons in civilian authorities you recall at that time, 1992?
8 A. I remember Mr. Srdjo Srdic, for example. Allegedly he was a
9 representative in the People's Assembly. There was also Mr. Simo
10 Miskovic. I don't know what his position was. The late Dr. Kovacevic.
11 Again, I don't know what his position was at the time. These -- this is
12 my answer, but I only learnt that later on, after the war. At that time I
13 was not aware of all this.
14 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Finally, in -- when you escorted the bus on its
15 way first to Omarska and then to Prijedor, in which capacity did you act
16 at that time?
17 A. On the road first to Omarska and then to Trnopolje, not to
18 Prijedor, I was an escort.
19 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: And we learned that you were at that time [redacted]
20 [redacted]. Did you act as [redacted]--
21 A. That is correct, yes.
22 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: And who asked you to act as [redacted]
23 and why was it necessary to have [redacted]acting as an escort
24 on a bus to a camp?
25 A. [redacted], but I was off duty. My shift was 48 hours,
1 and then I would be off for the following 48 hours. On that particular
2 day I was off duty and one of the military came by my house and saw me,
3 saw me that I was free, that I wasn't doing anything. I can't remember
4 who it was. They had already seen the other [redacted]
5 performing his regular duties. Then they ordered me to come with them.
6 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: And you volunteered?
7 A. I went for purely safety reasons, for my own safety.
8 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: So it's your testimony that you were compelled
9 to do so?
10 A. I wouldn't say I was compelled or forced to go. They simply told
11 me, "You are coming with us." I could have refused, but I feared the
12 possible consequences.
13 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: So taking all the time together you spent there
14 in the Brdo area when the targeted persons were collected and brought to
15 the buses and then brought first in part to Omarska and then later to
16 Trnopolje, how many hours did this take from the first bus to the last
17 bus? You told us that you observed this entire exodus.
18 A. I know that that operation lasted from approximately 10.00 or
19 11.00 in the morning until 3.00 in the afternoon. But I arrived later,
20 and then I got on my bus. I did not participate in the operation of
21 gathering people.
22 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Thank you.
23 Judge Vassylenko, please.
24 JUDGE VASSYLENKO: Witness DD, you testified about three
25 incidents, the incident in Hambarine, Kozarac, and Prijedor, which took
1 place between the 22nd of May -- 22nd of May and 30th of May, 1992. Where
2 had you been when these incidents occurred?
3 A. At home. The third incident happened on the 30th of May. That is
4 when I was for the first time assigned to provide a security for the
5 police building in Ljubija, on that same evening.
6 JUDGE VASSYLENKO: Next question: Did you personally know at
7 least some persons involved in these incidents?
8 A. I already said that I knew some people in the first incident, that
9 is, on the 21st of May. And as for the others, no.
10 JUDGE VASSYLENKO: And whom did you know?
11 A. I knew the persons who fell victim to the accident in the car on
12 the 21st of May. I didn't know all of them. I knew three of them, three
13 of the six.
14 JUDGE VASSYLENKO: Can you name them.
15 A. Sinisa Mijatovic, who was injured; Miroslav Lulic, who is now
16 dead. He subsequently committed suicide. And Nedeljko Antunovic. I
17 believe that he was also injured at that time -- I'm sorry, Sinisa
18 Mijatovic and Ratko Milojica were injured. I didn't know Ratko Milojica
19 at the time. I also didn't know the late Lukic and the other Milojica.
20 JUDGE VASSYLENKO: Did these persons belong to the army or the
21 police or paramilitary formations?
22 A. The military.
23 JUDGE VASSYLENKO: Next question: While visiting Trnopolje camp
24 for the second time with the purpose to see your friend, had you a chance
25 to contact your relatives detained in the camp?
1 A. I've already said that I did have contacts with all of them, with
2 both my cousins and the friend, and I've already said it. I've said it
3 several times. And I've already told you what we were talking about, what
4 was the reason for which I went there. I did have contacts with them. I
5 told them how they were, how they were treated, and so on and so forth.
6 JUDGE VASSYLENKO: And one more on the last question: Have you or
7 your father ever tried to reach municipal authorities in order to get your
8 relatives released?
9 A. I didn't. And as for my father, I don't know. I can't speak for
10 my father. I only know that my father put his name on the guarantee for
11 one of my uncles. I really can't tell you who he might have contacted. I
12 really don't know. This wasn't important at the time. The most important
13 thing for us was for my relatives to get home. How this was to be done
14 was of minor importance.
15 JUDGE VASSYLENKO: Very well. I have no more questions.
16 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Judge Argibay, please.
17 JUDGE ARGIBAY: Good afternoon, sir. I have two or three very
18 simple questions.
19 A. Good afternoon.
20 JUDGE ARGIBAY: I hope you can that answer very shortly.
21 As a person who has done your military service, were you aware
22 that the army had barracks in Prijedor and that that was the place for a
23 brigade who was first number 43, I think, and then 143, and then 343?
24 Were you aware of the existence of that brigade?
25 A. I was aware of the existence of that brigade. The barracks
1 were --
2 JUDGE ARGIBAY: Okay. Just stop there. And then I'll continue.
3 Because if not, you are going to give an explanation that I don't need.
4 Do you know how many men composed that brigade?
5 A. I don't know. There were also reserve soldiers who had been
6 mobilised, so I wouldn't be able to give you the number of the men in the
8 JUDGE ARGIBAY: I don't know the exact number. More or less.
9 Would you tell me there were 500, 1000, more than 1000?
10 A. I really can't tell you. I don't know the number. Whatever I
11 might tell you, I'm afraid would be wrong. I know that the brigade was
12 rather large. And given the fact that it was a brigade -- a brigade
13 usually has a certain number of men in it. It has a certain strength. I
14 don't know how much it is.
15 JUDGE ARGIBAY: Okay. Then just turning to those episodes or
16 those events that you were talking earlier in your testimony just some
17 days ago. You told us for the incident in Hambarine of the name and
18 number of soldiers that were wounded or dead. And then after, you told us
19 about the driver who was killed in the Kozarac - I'm sorry for the
20 pronunciation of the names - in the Kozarac incident two days afterwards.
21 And then you told us that there was a false -- an attack by Bosniak forces
22 on Prijedor on May 30th. Correct? And you said that this force that
23 attacked Prijedor was around 200 men. You told us so, this in the
24 transcript on the first day.
25 And I want to ask you: Do you know - you were very well informed
1 over these events and the incidents - do you know what arms this group of
2 200 men had?
3 A. I assume that they had their personal infantry long-barrel weapons
4 or side weapons. I really don't know. They had automatic weapons,
5 semi-automatic weapons.
6 JUDGE ARGIBAY: Did they have tanks?
7 A. As far as I know, they didn't.
8 JUDGE ARGIBAY: Trucks?
9 A. I wouldn't be sure about trucks.
10 JUDGE ARGIBAY: Rockets?
11 A. Rockets and zoljas.
12 JUDGE ARGIBAY: Okay. And the last one, if I may: Do you
13 remember what road did you take from your city to Prijedor hospital when
14 you were driving some ill person to Prijedor? Do you remember the road?
15 A. There's just one road. There is just that one shortest route from
16 my place to Prijedor, which is about 12 kilometres.
17 JUDGE ARGIBAY: Okay. And inside the city of Prijedor, you have
18 the same road to go to the hospital?
19 A. Through Prijedor there are obviously several streets one can
20 take. I mostly took one way or one route. If I had a map, I could show
21 you that that route went by Prijedor hotel, by the Orthodox church, by a
22 place called Ereza. Then the police building, the building of the
23 municipal assembly.
24 JUDGE ARGIBAY: Okay.
25 A. And then on towards Ravno.
1 JUDGE ARGIBAY: That's enough.
2 Just listening to you, and you just answer my next question, that
3 you passed the police offices building on your way to the Prijedor
4 hospital. Have you ever seen queues of people in front of that building
5 in the period we are talking about? That means -- you were [redacted]
6 [redacted] from June 1992 on. Let's say from June 1992 to September 1992,
7 have you ever seen queues of people -- lines of people in front of the
8 police building in Prijedor?
9 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: The words [redacted]please be redacted
10 from the transcript. Thank you.
11 JUDGE ARGIBAY: Oh, sorry.
12 A. Thank you. I understand your question, but I can't remember. I
13 can't give you an answer to this question. Maybe I didn't pay too much
14 attention to any such thing.
15 JUDGE ARGIBAY: Thank you.
16 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: May I ask Defence counsel, any questions in re?
17 MR. OSTOJIC: With the Court's permission, I do, Your Honour.
18 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Then before we have the break, we need some
19 clarification. Did we find out whether or not there was such a letter as
20 indicated by Defence counsel?
21 MR. KOUMJIAN: We found a copy of a letter that was sent on the
22 4th of December. Apparently it was in Ms. Korner's office and apparently
23 it was delivered after she was away.
24 I'll give the Court our copy. And I do have some comments about
25 the contents, but it will be --
1 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: But we have to -- immediately to decide whether
2 or not this witness can leave The Hague or not.
3 MR. KOUMJIAN: Well, I would just indicate briefly that that
4 witness is not mentioned in the letter. Two other witnesses are, and that
5 witness is not.
6 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: What is the response by the Defence?
7 MR. OSTOJIC: I know I spoke to Ms. Joanna Korner on Friday of
8 last week. I know that she received my correspondence. I know that I
9 faxed them to the registry and copied the Court, specifically responding
10 to the two letters I received from the OTP. If the Court even examines
11 the December 4th, 2002, letter, it has one name initially, and that is
12 Witness Q. We responded in kind with respect to Witness Q.
13 Subsequently, we received another fax. It was not addressed to
14 anyone personally. It starts with -- the introduction, sir, is we
15 specifically and I specifically recall that we addressed it directly to
16 Ms. Korner, because she's the one who gave us the letter. In response --
17 what we did was respond to Witness Q and thereafter respond with respect
18 to the two witnesses who will be brought in early or mid-January 2003.
19 We responded also with respect to Witness number 21, Muharem
20 Murselovic, and spoke with Ms. Joanna Korner specifically about that. I
21 believe it was Thursday evening or Friday evening when I met with her when
22 she exchanged the tapes of the Rule 68 disclosures in B/C/S so that our
23 client for the first time can have access to review them.
24 At that time I informed her, as I'm sure that she'll recall, that
25 we will not be seeking, having spoken with our client and the rest of the
1 Defence team, to be speaking further questions from Witness Q. Likewise,
2 at that time, I informed her that we would, if this witness, who is
3 scheduled to arrive on the 11th of December, based upon my recollection,
4 in order to commence his testimony in the Brdjanin trial. He was going to
5 be here mid-week this week. And had indicated to her that we would have
6 some questions, if permitted by the Court, to address that.
7 Also, when we were asked specifically in connection with this,
8 these issues, the Court asked me on Monday specifically in connection with
9 Witness Q, who apparently, according to the letter had representations
10 made to us, was arriving that week, scheduled to testify. It was not a
11 question that the witness was going to be testifying on one day and
12 immediately leave the day after. Nevertheless, we informed Ms. Korner we
13 think in ample time that we would not be seeking her testimony any further
14 in this case.
15 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Sorry to interrupt you. We don't want to reopen
16 discussion of the past. We are discussing now in concreto Witness Muharem
17 Murselovic. And it reads from the letter by -- from the Prosecution,
18 addressed to Mr. Branko Lukic and to Mr. John Ostojic that this person
19 would be available on 11 December, and the threshold has been indicated
20 several times to the Defence.
21 So may I ask you: Is it your intention to hear Mr. Murselovic
22 today and on the basis of which questions? I don't have anything in
23 writing, and it's really surprising to find out that we have two answers
24 from your side making reference to the three others but not to
25 Mr. Murselovic.
1 MR. OSTOJIC: Specifically, we addressed that in our
2 correspondence to the OTP, as well as orally. Our letter was almost
3 identical as theirs was in response to Witness Q. Surprising to me that
4 the Court doesn't have it. I sent the letters out personally. With
5 respect to Witness Murselovic, we would like to ask him questions based
6 upon information that we learned from the Rule 68 tapes.
7 Mr. Murselovic, as the Court may know, stated on page 2.675 of his
8 testimony that he was active politically within the municipality of
9 Prijedor and was an assemblyman. His name is also mentioned within some
10 of the individuals that were the Rule 68 disclosures known to them
11 personally of this witness. They can enlighten us or he can enlighten us,
12 since he continues to testify on page 2.815 of his deposition -- of his
13 testimony that he considers the first three to be the most powerful
14 politicians in Prijedor.
15 I would like to ask him further questions regarding those three
16 people which he identifies on page 2.815 - and this is a summary that I'm
17 reading from. I apologise if it's not directly accurate, but I believe
18 that it is quite accurate -- he identifies Simo Miskovic, Dragan
19 Savanovic, and Srdjo Srdic. Those three individuals who have provided the
20 OTP with interviews, I would like to ask Mr. Murselovic further questions
21 about those three individuals, as well as further questions regarding his
22 relationship while an elected assemblyman in Prijedor during the same time
23 that these individuals were also elected assemblymen.
24 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: I hereby invite one representative of each party
25 and a representative of the registrar for 4.00 sharp in my office.
12 Blank pages inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts. Pages 9659 to 9662.
1 We have to continue with the re-examination of the Witness DD.
2 And for this purpose, the trial stays adjourned until twenty minutes past
4 --- Recess taken at 3.53 p.m.
5 --- On resuming at 4.31 p.m.
6 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: May we continue with the re-examination of
7 Witness DD, please.
8 MR. OSTOJIC: May I proceed, Your Honour?
9 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: I ask you to do so.
10 MR. OSTOJIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
11 Further examination by Mr. Ostojic:
12 Q. Witness DD, I have a couple of points that I'd like to perhaps
13 clarify with you for my own purposes. Can I ask you when was the first
14 time that you first learned of the Keraterm camp?
15 A. At the time when the military activity was going on in the month
16 of June 1992, thereabouts.
17 Q. Tell me, if you will, did you learn anything else about that
18 facility, such as whether things were taking place there, violent things,
19 at or about that time?
20 A. It was at that time that I heard of the Keraterm camp, but I
21 learned later on that there had been violence as well on the part of
22 irresponsible individuals. I believe I stated that yesterday or the day
24 Q. Can you -- and I apologise if you did state it yesterday. I don't
25 have it necessarily in my notes. Tell me when you learned, given the
1 month and the year, of any violence that may have occurred at the Keraterm
2 detention centre.
3 A. I believe it was the end of 1992 when people were -- some of the
4 people were released home from Keraterm.
5 Q. Thank you. And is it fair to say that prior to that time you did
6 not learn or hear of any such activities?
7 A. I don't think I did. I don't know how long those persons were in
8 Keraterm. I don't know when it ceased to operate. I'm not sure whether
9 it was in late summer.
10 Q. Let me ask you, with the Court's permission, Witness DD, a
11 question asked by Your Honour regarding responsible persons in the
12 Prijedor municipality. Now, you mentioned several military and police,
13 and then you mentioned several of the civilian authorities, and you also
14 suggested, I believe, based on my notes, that those persons were most
16 Can you help me understand that answer and tell me who, sir, did
17 you mean when you stated "those persons were most influential." Which
18 persons are you talking about, the military, the police, civilian, all
19 three, or any combination of the three?
20 A. Well, I assume I meant the persons who held the most responsible
21 functions, including the military, police functions. I did hear about
22 civilians as well. I stated their names. I didn't know any of them
23 personally. I heard that they held certain responsible functions, offices
24 within the municipal civilian structure. I don't know exactly what
25 offices they had. I heard that Mr. Srdjo Srdic was the deputy of the
1 National Assembly. I knew about his function. I didn't know about the
2 other two. And obviously these individuals had more authority than myself
3 and other ordinary citizens.
4 Q. One final question, if I may.
5 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
6 Q. One final question, if I may. Having lived there and made the
7 observations that you shared with us, can you tell me which of those three
8 in your opinion, sir, would have the most influence as to what was going
9 on and occurring in Prijedor in the spring and summer of 1992? Namely,
10 was it the military that had the most influence as to those action or
11 crimes that were committed, the political establishment, the politicians,
12 or the police?
13 A. Well, I assume if you're talking about the conflict at the
14 beginning of the war, that it must have been the military that had the
15 most influence. It was the soldiers who took people into custody. I
16 never heard of any civilian having taken anyone to custody or to the camp.
17 MR. OSTOJIC: Thank you, Your Honour. That's all I have.
18 MR. KOUMJIAN: Just a few questions following up.
19 Further cross-examination by Mr. Koumjian:
20 Q. Sir, you discussed with His Honour Judge Schomburg the trip to
21 Omarska and the route that you took. That bus trip from the Brdo area to
22 Omarska, you arrived on a regular paved road; is that correct?
23 A. Yes. It was an asphalt road connecting Rizvanovici and Biscani
24 and Prijedor and further on towards Omarska. And we took the main road to
25 go to Omarska, in the direction of Banja Luka. At Nisevici we turned
1 towards Omarska - I don't know to what extent you're familiar with the
2 area - and we came back from Omarska and then to Trnopolje via Petrov Gaj.
3 Q. Thank you. Regarding the military police that were guarding the
4 stadium at Ljubija, can you tell us the uniforms that they wore, what
5 those uniforms looked like.
6 A. Those were military uniforms. Some had camouflage uniforms and
7 some had plain olive-drab uniforms, the so-called SMB uniform with white
9 Q. When you escorted the bus to Omarska and Trnopolje were you given
10 a uniform and a weapon; one or both?
11 A. I had, as far as I can remember, the upper part of my clothing was
12 olive-grey, and I had camouflage trousers that I had taken from my father,
13 because I had not been issued with these military uniforms. And I also
14 had my father's rifle with me, the one that he had been given as a member
15 of the reserve military force, because I didn't have any personal weapons
16 at the time, any long-barrel weapon, rifle, I mean.
17 Q. And are we in private session any just want to double-check. No.
18 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Let's go into private session, please.
19 [Private session]
23 [Open session]
24 MR. KOUMJIAN:
25 Q. Sir, so it's correct, isn't it, that during 1992 there were people
1 of Serb nationality -- there were many people of Serb nationality who
2 tried to protect their Muslim and Croat neighbours, who disagreed with the
3 persecutions and the crimes that were happening against them? This wasn't
4 the Serbian people of Prijedor doing this. This was specific
5 individuals. Correct?
6 A. Well, I assume not the person who signed the papers of their own
7 free will. Maybe those who had some interest in signing such documents,
8 they -- they did that. There are all kinds of people, you know.
9 Q. I'm sorry. Maybe I wasn't clear, but there were many people, many
10 Serbian people, who disagreed with the crimes against their neighbours and
11 who tried to protect Muslim and Croat neighbours, correct?
12 A. Of course there were such people. I don't know their number. I
13 wouldn't be able to tell you the percentage either. I don't personally
14 know any such information.
15 Q. Is it correct, though, that the atmosphere was such in Prijedor
16 and the atmosphere with the authorities that it was understandable that a
17 woman, like the one we just spoke about in private session, would want to
18 keep that name of that particular person who had helped her secret,
19 because for some people, for some Serbs it was dangerous for it to be
20 known that they helped their neighbours?
21 A. I guess that it was so. I don't know why they kept it secret.
22 Again, as I said, I was not interested in knowing that. What was
23 important was for this friend to be able to go back home.
24 Q. From your position that you've talked about, the power of the
25 military, it's your position, as I understand it, that the military could
1 choose who would be the leader of the civilian government; is that
3 A. I have said that it was the military who took over in a peaceful
4 way, and it is my assumption, which does not have to be correct, that they
5 were in the position to elect the civilian authorities until somebody
6 would be put in that position. That's my assumption. I wouldn't be able
7 to tell you the correct -- or the appropriate answer.
8 If the military was influential, especially some of its officers,
9 then they might have had influence on the civilian authorities as well.
10 Q. I understand you've been testifying based upon your assumptions of
11 what was occurring in Prijedor. So you would assume that if a civilian
12 leader was not cooperating, the military would have removed that leader,
14 A. I don't know. It may have been so. From the position that I am
15 in, I wouldn't be able to tell you. As for Dr. Stakic, maybe it wasn't
16 the military who appointed him. Maybe it was not the military who told
17 him, "You're just going to be a figure person and you're going to have to
18 say whatever -- do whatever we tell you to do." I don't know whether
19 it -- whether that happened in that way.
20 Q. Sir, were you aware of public interviews by Colonel Arsic,
21 television interviews, for example, where he said he kept the civilian
22 authorities very well informed about military matters in Prijedor, and are
23 you aware of public interviews by Dr. Stakic where he indicated that
24 cooperation between the civilian and military authorities in Prijedor was
25 very good?
1 A. I'm not familiar with such interviews. I've already told you that
2 I was not interested in the media, especially immediately upon the
3 breakout of the war. I wasn't following the media almost at all.
4 Q. As a person living in Prijedor, during the period from May through
5 September of 1992, did you see any evidence, and if so, please explain it
6 to us, any evidence of conflict between the military, police, and civilian
7 authorities in Prijedor?
8 A. I can't remember any such evidence. I wasn't interested in the
9 political situation. I wasn't into politics at all.
10 MR. KOUMJIAN: Thank you, Your Honour. I have no further
12 Just for the Court's information, the interview -- okay. Sorry. I
13 have no further questions. Thank you.
14 MR. OSTOJIC: No further questions.
15 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: This concludes the testimony of Witness DD.
16 May I finally ask you: Did you, when coming to The Hague, feel
17 under some pressure by whomsoever to be quite precise? This is not
18 related at all to the Defence -- but under pressure of other persons
19 living together with you in Ljubija or other persons you are working with
20 or you're a subordinate to?
21 MR. KOUMJIAN: We are in open session, Your Honour?
22 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Let us hear the answer in closed session -- in
23 not closed session. It will be too difficult. In private session.
24 MR. OSTOJIC: Your Honour, if I may be heard. The Defence has a
25 position. We would like it in open session. Just, I want on the record
1 to note our position on that.
2 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: May I ask the witness: Do you believe it would
3 help you to answer the question truthfully when we hear your answer in
4 private session? Will it assist you in answering my question?
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can easily give it in an open
7 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Then please do so.
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I did not experience any political
9 pressures either in my institutions -- institution where I work or by any
10 of my neighbours, citizens of Ljubija, or anybody else. I came here of my
11 own will, nobody persuaded me to come here -- and "here," I mean the
12 gentlemen from the Defence, regardless of the circumstances that may have
13 prevented me from coming here.
14 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: You only should know that whenever you feel it
15 necessary to add something or to clarify something, it is open for you to
16 contact the Court in writing or through the Defence if you feel it
17 necessary. Thank you for coming. This concludes --
18 MR. KOUMJIAN: May I, Your Honour, ask if the Court cares to
19 inquire. The OTP would like to permission of the witness to disclose his
20 transcript in other cases, specifically the Brdjanin case.
21 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Do you understand the question? Do you agree
22 that your transcript is used as well in one or other cases, especially the
23 case Prosecutor versus Mr. Brdjanin in order to avoid that you have to
24 appear a second time here in The Hague? Do you agree?
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It is up to you, Your Honours, to
1 decide whether my testimony is relevant. As I've already told you, I'm
2 here of my own will to help the Honourable Court to come to the truth
3 regardless of the final outcome of this procedure.
4 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Sorry. You didn't answer my question.
5 Do you agree that your testimony is used in other cases on the
6 basis of the transcript you can see before you as well? This is one rule
7 aiming at -- that the witness has not to appear another time in The
8 Hague. Do you agree that this transcript, that what is written down from
9 your testimony, is used in other cases as well?
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I assume that the transcript will
11 protect my identity. And if that is the case, I don't have any objections
12 to the transcript being used as an exhibit in any other trial.
13 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Thank you. Then this is accepted under the same
14 protective measures as applicable during this testimony.
15 Thank you for coming.
16 May I ask the usher to escort the witness out of the courtroom.
17 Wait a moment.
18 Is my understanding that also the next witness appears under
20 MR. OSTOJIC: That is correct, Your Honour.
21 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: This would be then DE. And also voice and face
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I would like to make a correction,
24 if I may.
25 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: We'll reopen the testimony of Witness DD.
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I would like to make a correction
3 about my personal data. The Defence counsel asked me the day before
4 yesterday about my marital status, and my answer was that I was married
5 and a father of one child. Are we still in private session, Your Honour?
6 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: No. But if need may be and there are no
7 objections - I don't believe - then we'll go, please, in private session.
8 [Private session]
22 [Open session]
23 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: During the break, in the framework of a 65 ter
24 (I) meeting, the minutes will follow. We discussed the question of
25 whether or not to hear Witness Murselovic another time in this case. The
1 factual basis is the following: That it is a submission of the Defence
2 and we have no reasonable doubts - that is a fact - that the Defence has
3 sent another letter to the Office of the Prosecutor and asking for copies
4 to be sent to the Judges. We didn't receive the second letter, and we
5 didn't receive the third letter, but -- and we didn't receive until now
6 concrete questions, as we stated, the 25th of November, 2002, questions --
7 concrete questions to be demonstrated by the Defence that they were not
8 able to put to the witnesses when they had been here in The Hague and that
9 these new questions are emanating from the statements missing at that
10 point in time.
11 We had to balance the interests of all the participants, and we
12 feel an absolutely uncomfortable situation if not in a situation where we
13 are compelled to act as we act now, that we want to avoid any kind of
14 prejudice for witness, and therefore we asked the Office of the Prosecutor
15 to call Mr. Muharem Murselovic another time, tomorrow 9.00. But the
16 Defence should not believe that in future we will act on this same basis,
17 in this same way. This is only a measure to protect the interest of
18 Mr. Murselovic.
19 MR. KOUMJIAN: May I just ask, I'm not sure of the timing of
20 flights, but it might be helpful to VWU to have a time estimate for the
21 examination. If we're starting at 9.00, he could possibly still leave
23 MR. OSTOJIC: I do not -- I do not believe my questions will be
24 more than an hour.
25 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Please be aware that we will limit the
1 questions, question by question, on relevance. But I think you have got a
2 concrete answer, and maybe there will be questions emanating from this
3 line of question from your side and also from the side of the Judges.
4 Thank you.
5 Then in order to avoid such, let's call it, incident another time,
6 I have to ask the Defence to prepare concrete questions for the other
7 witnesses. I don't want to mention names. I'm not totally sure on the
8 safe side whether they were protected or not -- number 2 and number 3 in
9 the Prosecution's letter of 4 December. If there is intention to hear
10 these witnesses another time in cross-examination, please produce the
11 questions you believe to be necessary no later than 8 January 2003. And I
12 would ask the parties to cross-check whether or not in fact all the
13 statements or the proffers for the witnesses before us are ready.
14 Defence Witness 015, this is related to the number -- the 65 ter
15 number. But admittedly I haven't seen yet a proffer for Defence Witness
16 number 15 on the list provided for us by the registry. This would be 65
17 ter number 26 on the Defence list.
18 May we now proceed with Witness DE, and may I ask the usher to
19 bring this witness into the courtroom.
20 MR. OSTOJIC: If I may have the floor, Your Honour, just in
21 connection with --
22 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Yes. Please proceed.
23 MR. OSTOJIC: I apologise. I have the deadline. Thank you. We
24 do expect to ask leave to question the other two individuals, and we will
25 provide the Court with written questions on or before January 8th, 2003.
1 My only request would be that those questions do not be tendered to the
2 Office of the Prosecutor, as they're considered work product. And I would
3 hate to have those questions be shared with any particular witness prior
4 to their testimony.
5 [The witness entered court]
6 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: We will rule on this later.
7 MR. OSTOJIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
8 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: First of all, good afternoon, witness. Sir, may
9 I ask you to give your solemn declaration.
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak
11 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
12 WITNESS: WITNESS DE
13 [Witness answered through interpreter]
14 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Thank you. You may sit down. And only that you
15 know that you are called Witness or Witness DE. This is not an act of
16 non-courtesy, but it's just for your own protection on the request by the
18 The floor is for the Defence.
19 MR. OSTOJIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
20 Examined by Mr. Ostojic:
21 Q. Good evening, Witness DE. My name is John Ostojic, and along with
22 Danilo Cirkovic, we represent Dr. Milomir Stakic. I'm going to ask you a
23 series of questions here today, sir. In connection with the events that
24 occurred in the spring and summer of 1992. If at any time you do not
25 understand my question or would like me to clarify, please state so and I
1 will attempt to do so. Fair enough?
2 A. Yes.
3 MR. OSTOJIC: With the Court's permission, we'd like to ask the
4 usher to show the witness a piece of paper which has some information on
6 Q. Witness DE, you were given a piece of paper by the usher. Does
7 that paper bear your first and last name?
8 A. Yes.
9 MR. OSTOJIC: With the Court's permission, we'd like to admit that
10 paper as the next Defence exhibit.
11 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: It would be D42, correct? Admitted into
12 evidence, D42.
13 MR. OSTOJIC: Also, Your Honour, I apologise but perhaps obviously
14 it will be confidential, correct? Just so the record is clear. Thank
16 Q. Witness DE, if I may proceed. Can you give us your date of birth.
17 A. 2nd of January, 1986 [as interpreted].
18 Q. Help me just to understand. Perhaps I didn't hear you that well.
19 Is it 1986 or 1976?
20 A. No, 1976 -- a 7.
21 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: And may I ask, the 2nd or the 3rd of January?
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] 2nd January.
23 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Thank you for this clarification.
24 MR. OSTOJIC:
25 Q. Can you tell us, where were you born?
1 A. I was born in Gornja Ravska village, Prijedor municipality.
2 Q. Could you tell us generally where do you reside presently.
3 A. Currently I live in Raljas near Ljubija.
4 Q. And in what municipality does that fall -- that town fall under?
5 A. Prijedor.
6 Q. A couple background questions. Are you presently married?
7 A. I am married. I am a father of one child.
8 Q. Forgive me for asking this question, sir: Can you share with us
9 what your ethnic background is.
10 A. Croat. That is my ethnic background.
11 Q. And your wife, what is her ethnic background?
12 A. Likewise, she is a Croat.
13 Q. And share with me, if you will, if both your parents, mother and
14 father, are also Croatian?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. In the spring and summer of 1992, can you share with us the town
17 in which you lived, the name of the town.
18 A. I lived in Gornja Ravska, Prijedor municipality.
19 MR. OSTOJIC: With the Court's permission, if we can have the
20 usher show the witness Exhibit S1.
21 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: [Microphone not activated] Please do so.
22 MR. OSTOJIC: If the usher would be kind enough to place it on the
23 ELMO so that all of us can view it together.
24 With the Court' permission, if we can just go further back to get
25 the complete picture, a little more. That would be fine.
1 Q. Witness DE, I asked you where you were born, where you currently
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. And where you lived in the spring and summer of 1992. Just so
5 that I have a clear record, in what municipality did you live in in the
6 spring and summer of 1992?
7 A. Prijedor municipality.
8 Q. The exhibit or map that you're looking at for our purposes that's
9 been identified as S1. Does the town in which you lived in in the spring
10 and summer of 1992 appear on that map?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Can you show us with the pointer that the usher will hand you
13 where that town is.
14 A. [Indicates]
15 Q. Just so the record is clear, the witness is pointing to an area
16 which is marked approximately with the letter "G. Ravska" -- I'm sorry, I
17 can't see it. R--a-v-s-k-a, Ravska, correct?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. In the spring and summer of 1992, you were how old?
20 A. I was 16.
21 Q. Can you tell us approximately at that time how many homes were in
22 the town in which you lived, Gornja Ravska?
23 A. Approximately 100 households.
24 Q. Can you tell us the ethnic composition, if you will, of those 100
25 or so households in the town in which you lived.
1 A. In my village, Gornja Ravska, there were five or six Serbian
2 households, and the rest were all Croats. There were no Muslims or
4 Q. Briefly, with respect to your background, can you share with us
5 your educational status and the highest level of education that you
7 A. I completed secondary education. And in the duration of three
8 years, and I became a qualified metal worker, car body repair. And now if
9 we can go to private session, please.
10 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Private session please.
11 [Private session]
13 Page 9681 – redacted – private session
25 [Open session]
1 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Please proceed.
2 MR. OSTOJIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
3 Q. Witness DE, I'm going to ask you some questions now relating to
4 time specific to the spring and summer of 1992. To the best of your
5 recollection, sir, prior to - meaning before - April 30th, 1992, did you
6 reside in the area that you mentioned to us, namely Gornja Ravska?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Can you share with us prior to April 30th, 1992, whether all the
9 homes in the area or town that you lived were ever damaged, shelled,
10 bombed, or otherwise looted.
11 A. No.
12 Q. Sir, let me ask you the question from the period of April 30th,
13 through May 22nd, 1992, do you recall if any of the homes within the
14 village within which you resided were ever shelled, bombed, destroyed,
15 burned, or looted?
16 A. In my village not a single house was ever shelled, bombed, or set
17 on fire to this date.
18 Q. Witness DE, if I may, with the Court's permission -- thank you for
19 your answer. However, just for our purposes, I'd like to just get an
20 answer for certain time periods. So let me ask the general question: At
21 any time during the spring and summer of 1992, from April 30th, 1992,
22 through September 30th, 1992, were any of the homes in the village in
23 which you resided at that time shelled, bombed, burned, or destroyed, or
24 otherwise looted?
25 A. During that period of time, not a single house was either set on
1 fire, shelled, or in any way destroyed.
2 Q. At that time, just so that I'm clear, the ethnic composition of
3 the town in which you resided was predominantly Croatian, with the
4 exception, I think, as you've testified, four to five homes which were
5 persons who had the Serb ethnic background, correct?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Can you tell me in the spring and summer of 1992, namely prior to
8 April 30th of 1992, were you employed?
9 A. No. I went to school.
10 Q. Share with us, if you will, where you attended school.
11 A. In Prijedor. The secondary machine school.
12 Q. Just so that we're clear, it is the city of Prijedor that you
13 attended school, correct, in the very centre city, correct?
14 A. Yes, in Prijedor. The name of the school is the machine
15 energetics secondary school.
16 Q. And from the period after April 30th, 1992, through and including
17 the date in which the schools close for the summer session, did you
18 continue to go to school on a regular and daily basis?
19 A. I attended school until the 22nd of May, 1992.
20 Q. Can you share with us specifically the time period that's of most
21 interest to us, April 30th, 1992, through May 22nd, 1992, whether you
22 continued to go to school on a regular and daily basis.
23 A. Yes.
24 MR. OSTOJIC: With the Court's permission, I'd like S1 to be
25 placed on the ELMO be the usher so he can perhaps share with us the route
1 that he took to go to the school.
2 A. I cannot read what it says. Gornja Ravska, Ljubija, Hambarine,
4 Q. Your daily journey from April 30th, 1992, through May 22nd, 1992,
5 was done with which mode of transportation?
6 A. By bus.
7 Q. Public bus transportation, correct?
8 A. Yes, public bus transportation.
9 Q. At that time, sir, from April 30th through May 22nd, 1992, did you
10 have classmates of ethnic backgrounds different than your own?
11 A. Yes, I had classmates who were of different ethnicity.
12 Q. Such as what, sir?
13 A. For instance, Haris Jakupovic.
14 Q. And what is Mr. Jakupovic's ethnic background, to the extent that
15 you know?
16 A. Well, he's a Muslim, a Bosniak.
17 Q. Do you recall, sir, during the period in question that we're
18 discussing, April 30th, 1992, through May 22nd, 1992, whether Bosnian
19 Muslims continued to go to school, as you did, on a daily and regular
20 basis, as you did, in April 30th through May 22nd, 1992?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Do you, as you sit here, sir, recollect your classmate,
23 Mr. Jakupovic, who is a Bosniak Muslim by his ethnic background, attending
24 school during that entire period on a daily and regular basis?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Share with us, if you will, whether or not you proceeded to go to
2 school in the week or so after May 22nd, 1992.
3 A. I didn't go to school from the 22nd of May until sometime in
4 June -- I don't remember the exact date -- due to the incident which took
5 place in the village of Hambarine. The reason being the fact that there
6 was no transport from Prijedor.
7 Q. When does the school session in the Prijedor municipality
8 typically and more specifically in 1992, when would it end?
9 A. On the 15th of June, 1992.
10 Q. Likewise during this period of April 30th through May 22nd, 1992,
11 did you have an opportunity, sir -- did you -- if I can strike the
12 question, because I think I need a foundation -- a foundational question
13 first. If I may, Your Honour. Thank you.
14 Let me ask you this. I apologise, Witness DE. In your school,
15 during the period of May 30th through May 22nd, 1992, were there teachers
16 who taught students of all three or more ethnic backgrounds, namely
17 Serbs -- teachers who were of the Serb ethnic background, teachers were of
18 the Croatian ethnic background, and teachers of the Bosniak Muslim ethnic
20 A. I personally had both Serb and Bosniak teachers.
21 Q. Let me focus my question on the period of April 30th through May
22 22nd, 1992. Do you recall whether those teachers of Serbian and Bosniak
23 backgrounds, whether they continued to teach on a daily basis to you and
24 other students at that time period?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. In 1992, the spring and summer, sir, with respect to your town,
2 was there a Catholic church or a religious institution within that town?
3 A. In my town there was a church, which actually still exists, which
4 did not suffer any damage during the war.
5 Q. Just so that I'm clear, during the spring and summer of 1992, was
6 this Catholic church ever bombed or shelled?
7 A. No, it was neither bombed or shelled.
8 Q. Was it ever burned or any attempts to burn or loot the Catholic
9 church in your hometown?
10 A. No. There were no such attempts.
11 Q. Share with us, sir, if you were ever in the military.
12 A. Yes, I was. I was in the military from the 10th of October, 1994,
13 until the 15th of February, 1996. It was my regular military service that
14 I did during this period of time.
15 Q. During the spring and summer of 1992, specifically April 30th
16 through September 30th, 1992, were you, sir, in light of the fact that
17 you're Croatian, were you ever harassed by anyone?
18 A. During that time, I was not harassed by anyone.
19 Q. During that same time period, namely April 30th through September
20 30th, 1992, were you ever beaten up or did anyone strike you?
21 A. No. No one harmed me or beat me.
22 Q. During that time period, sir, were you ever humiliated or caused
23 to have upon you any mental suffering or to be degraded in any fashion?
24 A. No, I was not degraded.
25 Q. During this time period, April 30th, 1992, through September 30th,
1 1992, had anyone at any time attempted to forcibly transfer or deport you
2 from your hometown to any facility or institution?
3 A. No.
4 Q. Likewise, sir, with respect to your family, your parents, were
5 they ever harassed, beaten, humiliated, or asked to leave their hometown
6 during the period of April 30th through September 30th, 1992, by anyone,
7 including people of the Serb ethnic background?
8 A. My father lived in the Republic of Slovenia, where he worked
9 during the war. Me and my mother, we were at home, and no one ever
10 harassed us or struck us.
11 Q. In the town in which you lived in the spring and summer of 1992,
12 did you, sir, observe, see, or hear of anyone within your town of those
13 100 and so homes being beaten, humiliated, insulted, degraded, or
14 otherwise offended?
15 A. Yes, these things happened. In June or July -- July, I think it
16 was, five individuals were taken away from my village, from their homes,
17 that is. They were allegedly taken to Omarska. After all these events,
18 four left for third countries. As for the fifth one, there's no
19 information as to his whereabouts.
20 Q. Did there remain in your town in the spring and summer of 1992
21 other able-bodied men of military age other than those five that you've
22 just shared with us were taken to Omarska?
23 A. Other residents remained at their homes.
24 Q. So other able-bodied men, were they ever harassed, humiliated,
25 beaten, or otherwise degraded during the period of April 30th through
1 September 30th, 1992?
2 A. As far as I know, no one ever touched them.
3 Q. I'd like to focus if we can on the day of April 30th, 1992, sir.
4 Do you recall that date and what, if anything, significant happened on
5 that day?
6 A. The 30th of April? 1992, right?
7 Q. Correct. The 30th of April, 1992.
8 A. No.
9 Q. You mentioned the date of May 22nd, 1992, as being an incident at
10 the village or hamlet of Hambarine, correct?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Could you share with us, sir, whether or not or what information
13 you have in connection with this incident on May 22nd, 1992.
14 A. Well, what happened, at least the story went around - whether it's
15 true or not, I don't know, because I was not there --
16 MR. KOUMJIAN: Your Honour, I would make an objection just to the
17 value -- the relevance of testimony. If the witness is only, again,
18 relaying hearsay as to what happened, unless he talked to someone who was
19 there directly or -- if it's simply unspecified hearsay, I just -- my
20 objection is relevance.
21 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: And this would be true for a line of questions
23 MR. OSTOJIC: I'm not sure I understand. Which previous lines of
24 questions the Court is referring to, with all due respect.
25 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: The line of questions -- I don't think it's of
1 relevance in this abstract way Defence counsel is asking questions to the
2 witness, and whether or not one single witness was aware of some alleged
3 incidents may be not of this relevance. But when it comes now down to
4 this abstract question, as we can read it on page 63, line 1, following,
5 in fact we have to intervene and ask for more concrete questions.
6 MR. OSTOJIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
7 Q. Witness DE, I'm trying to just establish whether or not you knew
8 and had information relating to an incident which occurred on May 22nd,
9 1992. I'm not asking you to share that information that you had, but
10 whether you understood that an incident occurred on or about that date in
11 the village of Hambarine. And then I have several questions relating to
12 your personal observations after that, with the Court's permission.
13 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Yes. But it's necessary to have a break now,
14 and then we'll continue after the break with your line of questions.
15 The trial stands adjourned until 6.00 sharp.
16 --- Recess taken at 5.44 p.m.
17 --- On resuming at 6.04 p.m.
18 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Please be seated.
19 And may I ask the usher to escort the witness out of the
21 [The witness stands down]
22 In the meantime, I want to confirm that the Trial Chamber will sit
23 in this case on Friday from 9.00 to 12.30 and from 14.00 to 15.30 hours.
24 The second part will take place under Rule 15 bis because one of the
25 Judges has already scheduled a flight and this can't be rescheduled.
1 As regards the witness before us, I think there are no longer any
2 relevant questions to put to this witness. When we were confronted with
3 the admission of this witness, we took it that it would be Gornja Ravska.
4 The Defence should be aware, and no doubt they know that Gornja Ravska
5 and -- Donja and Gornja Ravska are no longer part of our case. It was
6 acquitted under 98 bis.
7 What we have as a summary of the testimony, it is exhausted and it
8 doesn't make sense at all and it is therefore not relevant. Whether or
9 whether or not a, at that time, 16-year-old person has some third- or
10 fourth-hand knowledge about whether or not an incident happened in the
11 area. So therefore, if the Defence is not able to identify additional
12 relevant questions, this would conclude the examination-in-chief.
13 MR. OSTOJIC: Thank you, Your Honour. The Defence does believe
14 that the witness is relevant for a number of reasons, specifically some of
15 the which the testimony was outlined, namely to refute the testimony by
16 several OTP witnesses regarding the functions of schools, whether they
17 operated, whether teachers were discharged, whether students continued to
18 go within a critical period within the indictment.
19 Likewise, with all due respect to my learned friend from the OTP,
20 we did not have any intention to ask this witness to regurgitate or to
21 repeat any hearsay items that he'd learned as a result of the Hambarine
22 incident, the Kozarac incident, or the attack on Prijedor. However, we
23 believe the witness continues to be an important witness, since according
24 to his testimony, based upon my recollection, and that which is reflected
25 in the testimony, after the attack on Hambarine, he continued to go to
1 school. The route that this witness shared with us that he took from
2 Gornja Ravska --
3 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: We heard all this.
4 MR. OSTOJIC: I understand. He can tell us from personal
5 knowledge, information, and observations what he saw going through
6 Ljubija, Hambarine, and then to Prijedor. I think it's important and I
7 think it will refute issues both that go to widespread and systematic
8 attack, the nature and extent and the severity of the purported damage
9 that was done at Hambarine.
10 Here is a witness who at that time continued to travel after the
11 22nd, and I think his insights may assist us in determining whether or not
12 from the witnesses that the OTP called, if in fact every home was
13 destroyed, as they suggest, every home was burned, shelled, and looted.
14 This witness, I believe, will have testimony relevant to those factors.
15 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: We already heard the witness on this. And as I
16 stated before, it's absolutely misleading already the proffer you provided
17 for us, and we do not accept that you continue with the line of
18 questioning which is absolutely irrelevant for the case, because it's no
19 longer part of the fourth amended indictment relating to Donja and Gornja
20 Ravska. And we heard the witness and the statement -- his statement on
21 the way to school and back from school during a certain period of time.
22 So everything what is covered and expected by the Defence under the
23 proffer has already been established.
24 MR. OSTOJIC: With all due respect, I don't think it has. For
25 example, if I may, Your Honour, I would ask him concretely, did he view
1 the Hambarine area and the homes, since I believe he took that road
2 through Hambarine, after May 22nd, 1992. And I believe I would follow up
3 with the question, if it's in the affirmative: What is it that you
4 observed during your travels after that time? We believe it goes to
5 refute and contradict certain allegations that were put to this Court and
6 brought before other witnesses that the OTP called. If the Court doesn't
7 think it's relevant that -- whether there were only the homes on the
8 street or near the street that were shelled during the incident on May
9 22nd, as opposed to the entire village, as the OTP has alleged, then make
10 it clear for us. Our intent is to have him, through his travels, share
11 with us that which he saw, not strictly within his village but in the
12 villages in which he travelled during that time period.
13 Also, we believe it's important that this witness will share with
14 us the present situation, both in Hambarine and in the Prijedor
15 municipality, because the Court has on several occasions shared with us
16 their mandate and request to determine whether there is a continuation and
17 revitilisation or return of persons who had left in 1995. I think this
18 witness, having continued to live there during that entire ten-year period
19 can share that information with the Court, if you'd like.
20 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Make I hear the submission by the Prosecution.
21 MR. KOUMJIAN: Your Honour, well, we don't object to those
22 questions, but I think they've been handled -- they've been already
23 testified to by the last witness, as far as the road. Counsel didn't make
24 an actual proffer of what this witness would testify to, but assuming he
25 would testify -- he travelled on the road and saw 40 or 50 houses
1 destroyed, if that's the proffer, I don't think that's particularly
2 relevant at this point.
3 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: I think that also the witness understands. The
4 Defence counsel shall limit the questions to the route from his home to
5 school but no other questions as reflected that a 16-year-old witness
6 could testify that "there was no organised genocidal plan in Prijedor,"
7 as we can read it from the proffer. This doesn't make sense at all.
8 So please conclude immediately your examination-in-chief on the
9 basis and limit it to the route from home to school, and then we'll
10 continue immediately.
11 MR. OSTOJIC: Just for Your Honour, if I may. I would like, with
12 the Court's permission, to ask the witness a question for a point of
13 clarification that was raised on page 55, lines 10 through 15 in private
14 session, if I'm permitted to just ask him a point of clarification on
16 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: I think we can do it in five minutes.
17 Please escort the witness into the courtroom.
18 THE REGISTRAR: I have one slight correction for the record. On
19 Friday we'll start at 9.30 and not 9.00.
20 [The witness entered court]
21 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Is there a specific reason?
22 Mr. Ostojic, please proceed.
23 MR. OSTOJIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
24 Q. Witness DE, a couple more questions with respect to the date or
25 incident of May 22nd, 1992. After that date, sir, after May 22nd, 1992,
1 did you at any time while attending school or to visit the city of
2 Prijedor pass through the village of Hambarine?
3 A. Yes, I did, in June, as I had to go to my school to pick up my
4 final certificate. I don't remember the exact date.
5 Q. Did you, sir, during that time personally observe the town of
6 Hambarine and the houses that are within that town during your journey?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Can you share with us, if you will, what is it that you observed
9 with respect to the homes within the town of Hambarine after May 22nd,
11 A. I saw that some houses along the Hambarine-Prijedor road were
12 damaged. Approximately 30 or 40 houses. I don't know the exact number.
13 Q. Were you able, sir, to view and do you have a personal observation
14 of homes that were in existence at that time in the village of Hambarine
15 away from the actual street? Did you view those homes?
16 A. Yes, I did. These houses had tiles on the roof, doors, windows.
17 Q. To the best of your recollection and your personal observation,
18 were those homes that were away from the street in the town of Hambarine
19 shelled, bombed, or burnt in any fashion; that which you could observe,
21 A. As far as I could see from the bus, houses which were away from
22 the road were complete, were intact.
23 MR. OSTOJIC: May we go in to private session, Your Honour?
24 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Please do so.
25 [Private session]
13 Pages 9696-9708 – redacted – private session
17 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned
18 at 7.04 p.m., to be reconvened on Thursday,
19 the 12th day of December, 2002, at 9.00 a.m.