International Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 9710

1 Thursday, 12 December 2002

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 9.06 a.m.

5 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Good morning to everybody. Please be seated.

6 Yesterday I asked for some research and investigation, but

7 unfortunately we didn't find any letter related to the following witness.

8 I would, therefore, ask the Defence to present this missing letter

9 accompanied by the proof of your fax machine that it was sent before

10 today, no later than 7 January 2003.

11 And also, as a result of the reflections on the statements and

12 proffers on the witnesses in the past, it is not only the Prosecution but,

13 first of all, the Prosecution, also the Chamber that sometimes take the

14 liberty to go into the merits and to try to find out who the person is

15 that is called. We did it in the past related to witnesses of the

16 Prosecution, and we'll do it in the future related to witnesses of the

17 Defence. And if only one date, for example, February 2 related to

18 February 3, it confuses everything, and we are not able to do the work

19 necessary for our preparation. Enough of preliminary remarks. I can't

20 see any movement of the parties. Therefore, let us hear our witness

21 today. Nothing has changed, and the witness is still to be heard in

22 public without any protective measures. Correct?

23 MR. WAIDYARATNE: Yes, Your Honour.

24 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Thank you.

25 MR. OSTOJIC: I do have an issue, Your Honour, if I may with all

Page 9711

1 due respect. My office is actually in Chicago, so we will endeavour to

2 find the letter. Yesterday, the Court identified a letter which

3 identified Witness Q and there were some comments made from the OTP with

4 respect to that letter, and then my insistence that a second letter was

5 sent. For the record, ultimately, that second letter was retrieved in

6 Ms. Joanna Korner's office, on her desk. I subsequently called my office

7 and received the fax confirmation for those two letters, which I have now.

8 I do not have an extra copy, but the Court's welcome to take this one. So

9 as long as I get a copy from the Court Registrar. So those are the two

10 letters that were sent on those dates. I also, just for the record, want

11 to state that I spoke with Ms. Korner last Friday actually on two

12 occasions at approximately 3.00, and also at 6.00 later that evening, in

13 connection with both Witness Q and the upcoming witness. It's my firm

14 belief, despite the fact that Ms. Joanne Korner is not here that she will

15 indeed recall those conversations because they, in fact, did occur. The

16 facsimiles were sent, for example, the second letter which the Court did

17 not receive, there are specific instructions to Mr. Christian Rohde whom

18 we in every occasion have faxed our briefs, our motions et cetera, and

19 asked that they be distributed to the appropriate parties. Within that

20 cover sheet statement, we direct him to distribute that second letter to

21 the respective Trial Chambers and Your Honours.

22 I'll tender that with the Court's permission to the usher. But

23 then again I must have another copy in Chicago, but this is the only one I

24 have here so I don't have a courtesy copy for the OTP this morning.

25 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: I take it from this that the two letters we have

Page 9712

1 before us from you dated December 4, 2002, they were sent by fax, but

2 there was no additional letter, no letter related to the witness we called

3 today. Correct?

4 MR. OSTOJIC: Your Honour, I'm just not sure. I'm going to have

5 to go back and check that with my office. They were unable to find it

6 last night. I have a specific recollection because I wrote the letters

7 that we split them in this fashion. As I indicated to the Court yesterday

8 in our 65 ter conference, I'm going to have to personally make that

9 inquiry. But as of right now, that is correct.

10 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: So it remains with what I said earlier, we

11 expect this letter and the fax proof that it was sent no later than 7 of

12 January. Thank you.

13 May there -- being no other issues, would you please be so kind

14 and escort the witness into the courtroom.

15 [The witness entered court]

16 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Good morning, Mr. Murselovic. Mr. Murselovic,

17 we all know that you testified before this Trial Chamber already in May

18 this year. This Tribunal consists of three columns: The Prosecution,

19 registry, Chambers, and then we have the Defence. I don't want to go into

20 further details. Due to unfortunate reasons, we had to ask you to come

21 once again and answer the one or other question. I hope it will be a

22 relatively short exercise. But on behalf of the Tribunal, I apologise for

23 any inconvenience emanating from this.

24 As to the fact that it's a new testimony, would you be kind enough

25 to once again give us your solemn declaration.

Page 9713

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

2 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

3 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Thank you.

4 WITNESS: MUHAREM MURSELOVIC [Resumed]

5 [Witness answered through interpreter]

6 MR. KOUMJIAN: I don't know if the Court wanted to be reminded.

7 We didn't formally call the case yet this morning. I don't know that it's

8 necessary, but...

9 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: I think it's necessary, and I explicitly thank

10 you.

11 Would you please -- maybe it's interesting also for the witness to

12 know in which case he makes his statement today, that he is not confused

13 at all, being one day here, the next day there. Would you please call the

14 case.

15 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning. Case Number IT-97-24-T, the

16 Prosecutor versus Milomir Stakic.

17 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Thank you. And it should also be reflected from

18 the transcript who appears. May I ask you, thank you once again.

19 MR. KOUMJIAN: Good morning, Your Honours. Kapila Waidyaratne,

20 Nicholas Koumjian, and Ruth Karper for the Office of the Prosecution. If

21 I can just add one brief comment, I did speak to Ms. Korner last night,

22 and she did confirm that she had a conversation about the witnesses with

23 Mr. Ostojic. I don't have all the details, but she did confirm that.

24 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: And may I also, for the record, have the

25 appearances for the Defence.

Page 9714

1 MR. OSTOJIC: John Ostojic on behalf of Dr. Milomir Stakic,

2 Your Honour. Good morning.

3 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: So as to the fact that it is the witness of the

4 Prosecution and we have reopened the Prosecution's case for this special

5 purpose, the first word is, of course, for the Prosecution, if any.

6 MR. WAIDYARATNE: No, Your Honour. Nothing.

7 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Thank you. Then formally, for the Defence. And

8 please, as advised yesterday, tell us on what concrete statement. You

9 need not name it, but tell us the number and the page number that we know

10 on which part of the new statements this is based.

11 Cross-examined by Mr. Ostojic:

12 Q. Good morning, sir. Just if I may with the Court's permission

13 introduce myself. My name is John Ostojic. I represent Dr. Stakic here.

14 On behalf of the Defence, I want to thank you for scheduling time to meet

15 with us and possibly discuss some issues in this case. In advance, I'd

16 like to thank you for your time and your testimony and also apologise for

17 any inconvenience that may have caused you. Thank you.

18 MR. OSTOJIC: Your Honour, the first issue that the Defence would

19 like to inquire on is with respect to Witness 1185, and specifically the

20 background, as the Court knows, it was not known to the Defence that this

21 witness also was in the same background and profession as Witness Number

22 85 [sic]. In light of that, not having Witness Number 115's [sic]

23 statement, we would like to ask this witness to the extent if he had any

24 profession dealings with Witness Number 1185. I'm not certain how we're

25 going to proceed unless the witness knows who Witness Number 1185 really

Page 9715

1 is without identifying him. But I'll be happy to proceed in the manner the

2 Court suggests.

3 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Until now, the Defence has been --

4 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, Your Honour.

5 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: -- Find their own way. Please start.

6 MR. OSTOJIC: Thank you. And the witness is not protected,

7 correct, Your Honour? So I may use his name. Thank you.

8 Q. Mr. Murselovic, you were in the catering business in 1992 and

9 before. Correct?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Did you, during this time period, know or are you familiar with

12 the fact that Mr. Slobodan Kuruzovic was also in the catering business at

13 or around that time?

14 A. As far as I know, Mr. Slobodan Kuruzovic was never in catering.

15 He was a mathematics teacher.

16 Q. Do you know, sir, if a gentleman by the name of Mr. Simo Miskovic

17 was involved in the catering business at all?

18 A. As far as I know, Simo Miskovic worked in the police. He was a

19 policeman, and he retired from the police. I don't know what he did once

20 he was retired, but he went into retirement from the police force.

21 Q. [Previous interpretation continues]... That you did not know that

22 Mr. Simo Miskovic was in the catering business and had a restaurant or a

23 cafe in Prijedor or in the municipality of Prijedor in 1992 or prior to

24 that. Correct?

25 A. As far as I know, he didn't do that professionally.

Page 9716

1 Q. Did you personally know Mr. Simo Miskovic and Slobodan Kuruzovic?

2 A. I knew Mr. Kuruzovic because we both worked at the same school for

3 one period of time. I also worked there as a maths teacher. But I also

4 knew him from town, because he sometimes came to my restaurant. I knew

5 him from the street. He is a native of Prijedor. And that's how I also

6 knew him. I knew where he resided as a child. There was a house in front

7 of the municipality building. That's where he lived. That was then

8 pulled to the ground, and then he moved to Puharska, to another part of

9 the town. So I can say that I knew him rather well.

10 Q. Prior to the events that unfolded in the spring and summer of

11 1992, would you consider yourself to be a friend, a social acquaintance,

12 or merely someone who knew about either Simo Miskovic and/or Slobodan

13 Kuruzovic? How would you categorise your relationship?

14 A. I would say that we were acquaintances. I knew him. We would say

15 hello to each other when we bumped into each other. But we were not

16 friends.

17 Q. Would you know of the fact that in 1992, Mr. Kuruzovic lost his

18 young daughter, she died, in Sarajevo? Did you know?

19 MR. WAIDYARATNE: I'm sorry to interrupt this. I do not see any

20 relevance with regard to this line of questioning, Your Honour. Thank

21 you.

22 MR. OSTOJIC: If I may reply.

23 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Please.

24 MR. OSTOJIC: I think it might establish the extent of his

25 relationship possibly with Mr. Kuruzovic. And this is the information,

Page 9717

1 the first time the Defence has learned it from the disclosures. If the

2 Court would like, I could direct your attention to that.

3 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: If you find a bridge or case immediately we

4 would allow one further question.

5 MR. OSTOJIC: Is the witness permitted to answer this question or

6 not, Your Honour?

7 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: He is permitted to answer this question, but

8 then, please, find the bridge to our case.

9 MR. OSTOJIC:

10 Q. If you don't mind.

11 A. You have just reminded me about the fact that Mr. Kuruzovic lost

12 his young daughter immediately prior to the beginning of the war. But how

13 did -- how that happened, what were the circumstances of that event, I

14 don't know. We were not so close, and I didn't even go to that funeral.

15 I just heard that as information.

16 Q. [Previous interpretation continues]... Couple of other areas

17 specifically relating to the Red Cross and a stay in Omarska, that being

18 submitted during the disclosure on Rule 68. I don't have my notes with

19 the transcript page. It is of a witness which the Court has. I don't

20 have the number in front of me. Perhaps in private session, I can

21 identify it for the Court. I think the witness clearly in his statement

22 said that he was a member of the Red Cross.

23 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: I know what you are speaking about. Please

24 continue.

25 MR. OSTOJIC:

Page 9718

1 Q. Mr. Murselovic, are you familiar with and were you acquainted with

2 a gentleman by the name of Srdjo Srdic?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Did you know, did you have in information in the spring and

5 summer, what Mr. Srdjo Srdic's job and function were of 1992?

6 A. Srdjo Srdic is also a native of Prijedor. He is an elderly man

7 who was a dentist. I knew his parents. And he was a frequent patron of

8 my restaurant. He worked in the medical centre as a dentist, and he

9 worked in the so-called Celuloza. That's what we called those premises.

10 He was my very frequent patron, and I knew him better than the previous

11 two gentlemen.

12 Q. Do you have any information or belief that after leaving the

13 Municipal Assembly, Mr. Srdic served as president of the Red Cross in

14 Prijedor?

15 A. I heard that after we had been taken to the camp, that he was the

16 president of the Red Cross and that he was in charge of issuing permits

17 for those who wanted to leave Prijedor Municipality. But while I was in

18 Prijedor, I believe that he wasn't the president of the Red Cross.

19 Q. [Previous interpretation continues]...

20 A. I don't know. I'm not sure, and I don't want to give you

21 something that is wrong.

22 Q. They in this Tribunal say if I may with the Court's permission, my

23 case to you with respect to this issue, Mr. Srdic, if he were to claim

24 that he was the president of the Red Cross, and that he visited Omarska on

25 a regular basis and provided medical care, treatment, utilities, and

Page 9719

1 facilities to those that required it, wouldn't that be the truth, sir?

2 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Sorry. The Defence is abusing their rights

3 absolutely. It was clearly stated yesterday that the line of questions

4 should be limited to those not available at that time when the witness

5 appeared. You're making reference to a statement of August 2002. This is

6 the first point.

7 MR. OSTOJIC: I'm not familiar with what the Court's referring to,

8 with all due respect.

9 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: You should listen to what is said in the

10 courtroom. And second, there were objections to the concrete questions by

11 the Prosecution. Please.

12 MR. KOUMJIAN: Well, the objection is I don't believe -- I believe

13 counsel has made an error, and I don't believe he has a good faith belief

14 that he will present evidence that Mr. Srdic visited the camp every day.

15 Because I think the transcript will show that, in fact, there's a denial

16 that he ever visited the Omarska camp.

17 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: And as we stated yesterday, reference should be

18 made to the concrete passage of the five interviews or statements not

19 available at that time when we heard the witness before us for the first

20 time.

21 MR. OSTOJIC: May I proceed, Your Honour?

22 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: If you can make reference to the concrete page

23 that we can be sure that you don't quote just out of the blue.

24 MR. OSTOJIC: On page 2699 of Mr. Murselovic's previous testimony,

25 let me back up just a bit here. If I can just be corrected, on page 2815

Page 9720

1 of Mr. Murselovic's testimony, I'd like to ask him further about who the

2 most prominent politicians were. He identifies specifically in that

3 transcript several individuals, and then concludes in that narrative that

4 he considered, I'm reading from my notes here, the first three to be the

5 most powerful politicians in Prijedor. I'd like to ask him a couple

6 questions relating to that question as well as the question on

7 Crisis Staff, and I'd like to ask him questions specifically about two

8 other individuals whose disclosures we received pursuant to Rule 68,

9 Vojo Pavicic, and Ranko Travar. Specifically, we would to ask him

10 questions with respect to Mr. Pavicic on page 7, lines 1 through 4 of his

11 interview. If this gentleman being a former member of the Municipal

12 Assembly in view of what Mr. Travar's function was, to determine whether

13 Mr. Murselovic knew that Mr. Travar was a member of the Crisis Staff. We

14 would like to put to the witness, if permitted by the Court pursuant to

15 the Rules of this Tribunal, our case, since Mr. Pavicic clearly on pages

16 15 and 16 of his interview, lines 20 through 32, page 15 of his interview,

17 page 16, lines 19 through 25, page 19, lines 14 through 16; page 21, lines

18 13 through 16, discusses who was present and who was not during some of

19 the Crisis Staff meetings. This, we believe, will relate specifically to

20 the testimony given by Mr. Murselovic from pages 2699 when he gives an

21 opinion about the synchronisation and coordination of the Crisis Staff

22 between various institutions.

23 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Right. But we were still discussing the

24 question of Mr. Srdjo Srdic, as you stated, regular visits in his capacity

25 of president of the Red Cross in Omarska. And I didn't find something

Page 9721

1 like this, but please correct me.

2 MR. OSTOJIC: The question was indeed awkward. I think if the

3 Court can see from page 2722 of Mr. Srdic's testimony, which was disclosed

4 pursuant to Rule 68 -- I apologise. I'm giving the Court an incorrect

5 page number.

6 The sum and substance of Mr. Srdic's testimony as president of the

7 Red Cross was that the Red Cross was present, I believe, at -- yes.

8 MR. KOUMJIAN: Should I just suggest that we go into private

9 session when we are talking about matters that were not -- were perhaps

10 deemed confidential by individuals at the time.

11 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Private session, please.

12 [Private session]

13 [redacted]

14 [redacted]

15 [redacted]

16 [redacted]

17 [redacted]

18 [redacted]

19 [redacted]

20 [redacted]

21 [redacted]

22 [redacted]

23 [redacted]

24 [redacted]

25 [redacted]

Page 9722

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13 Pages 9722-9742 redacted private session

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Page 9743

1 [redacted]

2 [redacted]

3 [redacted]

4 [redacted]

5 [redacted]

6 [redacted]

7 [redacted]

8 --- Recess taken at 10.29 a.m.

9 [Open session]

10 --- On resuming at 11.02 a.m.

11 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Please be seated.

12 We received a number of documents apparently from the Defence. Do

13 you want to explain?

14 MR. OSTOJIC: These documents, Your Honour, relate to the issue

15 that arose yesterday with respect to whether or not a facsimile and

16 letters were sent to Ms. Joanna Korner, and to the individual I mentioned

17 this morning, Mr. Christian Rohde, regarding the response to the OTP's

18 letter of December 3rd and December 4th respectively. I think if the

19 Court -- or as the Court knows, looking at the last two pages of the

20 bundle that was received, this is a confirmation sheet, or as we call it a

21 confirmation sheet that the faxes which were sent, the pages indicated

22 below, were, indeed, received. And it is our position that that was our

23 duty, simply to get a confirmation. Simply the result indicating okay is

24 my understanding a confirmation that it was received. And as the Court

25 will look on the second page of the document, as we have in the past when

Page 9744

1 communicating with the Court, we directed the letter to Mr. Christian

2 Rohde at the facsimile letter that was available to us in the past. And

3 specifically state that in that facsimile cover sheet that he "kindly

4 forward the attached letter to the Trial Chamber as indicated." It was

5 our impression that the Court did receive or the Court should have

6 received it. We were obviously misguided. We didn't know the Court had

7 not received it.

8 In the past, when we sent communications, whether it was a motion

9 or a request, we operated under this procedure and we seem to have met

10 some success. I'm not certain why in this particular time, the OTP didn't

11 receive our second response, also dated December 4th, and why the Court

12 did not receive both our responses to those letters. So we apologise for

13 that, but we will try to establish a new procedure to confirm that any

14 correspondence is received before we appear.

15 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: I think it's now not no longer disputed, and

16 this was already yesterday the case, that there were two letters

17 apparently, one related to Witness Q and one related to witnesses in -- I

18 don't know. They are not protected. Nusret Sivac and Mirza Mujadzic, and

19 nothing was mentioned in this letter related to Mr. Muharem Murselovic.

20 This is correct?

21 MR. OSTOJIC: That is correct, Your Honour. But I can also for

22 the record with the Court area permission identify that in my conversation

23 with Ms. Joanna Korner on Friday of last week confirmed to her orally that

24 we would withdraw our request with respect to Witness Q and that we would

25 also be seeking leave to question Mr. Murselovic upon his arrival to

Page 9745

1 The Hague. It's my understanding that Mr. Murselovic testified in this

2 case for longer than a couple sessions. And having known that he was

3 going to testify on the 11th, namely yesterday, on the Brdjanin case, we

4 were not advised when he would be available in the Stakic case. I would

5 ask if the Court permits that the OTP specifically -- or if they can,

6 advise us when Mr. Mujadzic is coming, because we would like to put

7 several questions to him that stem from the transcript of specifically

8 three individuals since those three individuals and those interviews

9 specifically mention Mr. Mujadzic. And we would like to at least put our

10 case to him in connection with those conversations and facts as we've

11 described this morning.

12 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: In order to have the transcript correct, it

13 should be emphasised that in the letter from the OTP also addressed to the

14 Trial Chamber, we were informed that Mr. Murselovic would be in The Hague

15 from the 9th of December and testify on 11 December. There was nothing

16 ambiguous in this. And it is not to discuss among the parties an upcoming

17 witness. If you want to hear and want to call a witness, please inform

18 the Court, because it's the Court that has to decide whether or not the

19 threshold has been met or not.

20 Coming now to our witness, what is the estimated time you believe

21 to need for concluding? And please, don't misinterpret this as an

22 invitation to be short, because apparently we need some more details on

23 the personality of Dr. Stakic.

24 What is the estimated time you need?

25 MR. OSTOJIC: Approximately an hour to an hour and a half,

Page 9746

1 Your Honour, but it's difficult to say.

2 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Yes.

3 MR. OSTOJIC: I'll spend as much time with him as I believe

4 necessary and the Court wishes.

5 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: And then what would be the remaining witnesses

6 for this week?

7 MR. OSTOJIC: The remaining witnesses for this week would be one

8 after Mr. Makovski, and that would be Mr. Mico Kos, as we have identified

9 previously.

10 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Didn't you ask for protective measures?

11 MR. OSTOJIC: If we did, Your Honour, we are withdrawing that

12 orally since I spoke to Mr. Kos, and we were not going to seek protective

13 measures for his testimony when he testifies. So to the extent that we

14 did, it was clarified with the witness, and he did not require any such

15 protective measures.

16 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: So the name need not be redacted from the

17 transcript today. And it's my understanding that you want to prepare the

18 examination-in-chief. And therefore hear this witness tomorrow?

19 MR. OSTOJIC: That would be the Defence's request, Your Honour.

20 Yes.

21 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Objections?

22 MR. KOUMJIAN: No objection.

23 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Then it would finally allow the Judges to

24 participate in the second occupation of the day, to participate in the

25 plenary. And therefore we agree. And hear the second witness.

Page 9747

1 May I ask, what about Witness 068?

2 MR. OSTOJIC: That witness, the Defence is withdrawing, Your

3 Honour.

4 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Finally. Definitively?

5 MR. OSTOJIC: Yes.

6 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: And what about 71?

7 MR. OSTOJIC: 71, Your Honour, is not able to appear this week, is

8 not in The Hague. And we expect to call 71 in the first two weeks of

9 January. I know we've provided the OTP and the Court with a list. We can

10 also call him immediately following those witnesses on the list in order

11 that there be no confusion. So we can call him at some time later,

12 possibly after those next ten witnesses or so that we have identified.

13 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: We don't have any problems at all as we are

14 prepared to hear this witness already now, in the framework of the list

15 you have given to us, so it's no problem at all to hear this witness in

16 addition to the other persons mentioned in this list. So therefore, we

17 would invite you, if possible, to call this witness.

18 MR. OSTOJIC: Thank you, Your Honour. There are two other matters

19 when the Court allows that I would like to address with the Chamber.

20 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Please.

21 MR. OSTOJIC: Thank you. One is personal and a sensitive issue if

22 I may that we are asking the Court's assistance and intervention if you

23 will. I checked with the -- my learned friend from the Office of the

24 Prosecution. After this witness testifies, Your Honour, we would like, if

25 the Court permits, for him to be able to meet with Dr. Stakic. Dr. Stakic

Page 9748

1 specifically has requested that. That approval to meet with this witness

2 at the Detention Centre, because of the procedures and delay in doing what

3 I think their security background checks, they say that they would not

4 allow him access to the Detention Centre. If this Court permits, and if

5 there is obviously no objection from the OTP, we would ask if the Court

6 can allow this witness to meet with Dr. Stakic for no more than 20 to 30

7 minutes, but certainly no more than 30, in the presence of the security

8 staff and, with the Court's, Chamber's, their staff if necessary, just so

9 that we can exchange pleasantries and say hello to each other. Both have

10 requested that, both Mr. Makovski and Dr. Stakic. And I am formally

11 making that application, having spoken with the OTP briefly earlier.

12 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: We should know anyhow how -- how difficult this

13 is to arrange this through OLAD and the acting Dutch authorities at the

14 same time. So wouldn't it be - we have to decide on this, no doubt - a

15 better environment to have this meeting, if we agree, here in the premises

16 of the ICTY instead of the Detention Unit?

17 MR. OSTOJIC: That is what I'm suggesting. I'm sorry,

18 Your Honour. That they meet here immediately following the testimony of

19 Mr. Makovski, with your permission, in the back Chamber there or whatever

20 the Court allows with anyone present that the Court allows.

21 MR. KOUMJIAN: Just to make it clear, we don't object from the

22 interests of the Prosecution, but we are not seeking to interfere with

23 whatever decisions the security and OLAD, whatever procedures they have.

24 But it does not prejudice -- we do not see any prejudice to our own case

25 if following his testimony they meet.

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Page 9755

1 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: We rule on this after the next break.

2 MR. OSTOJIC: And my final application, and thank you,

3 Your Honour, is that several months ago we requested that the Defence have

4 January 7th off because of the Serbian orthodox Christmas, and the Court

5 was kind of enough to grant that to us. For a practical matter that we

6 did not envision, bringing witnesses to The Hague, because we start on the

7 8th of January, would require us to bring them and actually have them

8 depart either on the 6th or the 7th. And I believe -- at least my request

9 and the Court's granting of the request to have the 7th off, we're trying

10 to arrange for, if I can say respectfully, for non-Serbian Orthodox

11 witnesses to come that three days remaining in that week. The list

12 doesn't reflect that, but we're working through that. I noticed that

13 actually last night and wanted to raise it with the Court. To the extent

14 that we can, we will advise the Court and the OTP immediately of that

15 schedule. Some of the witnesses will not or would be hesitant to appear,

16 having to be taken away in the middle of a holiday from their families

17 during that January 7th period.

18 Again, just so the record is clear, this is an error from a

19 practical sense that the Defence made. We should have perhaps envisioned

20 this, and the Court did grant us the 7th, and we do appreciate that.

21 We're just working through trying to find a solution because the witness

22 and victim and protection unit would have to bring these witnesses at

23 least a day or two prior to their testimony, which would then interfere

24 with their personal holidays.

25 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: We had the same problem last year. And the

Page 9756

1 position taken by the bureau at that time was that we have to stick to the

2 holidays of the United Nations, being an institution of the

3 United Nations. Therefore, it was already an exception not really

4 respected by other judges as the correct approach that we decided to grant

5 the 6th and the 7th. As the Court calendar reads, the trials have to

6 start the 6th. And we can't wait only one day longer. Therefore,

7 unfortunately, being faced already with problems emanating from the fact

8 that we granted two additional days, we can't grant any more days. Sorry

9 for this.

10 MR. OSTOJIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

11 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: May we ask now that Mr. Makovski be brought in.

12 [The witness entered court]

13 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Good morning, Mr. Makovski. Our apologies that

14 apparently you had to wait a longer time than expected. But fortunately,

15 we can now proceed with your testimony. And let's start immediately.

16 MR. OSTOJIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

17 WITNESS: VLADIMIR MAKOVSKI [Resumed]

18 [Witness answered through interpreter]

19 Examined by Mr. Ostojic: [Continued]

20 Q. Mr. Makovski, good morning, I'm going to continue to ask some

21 questions in connection with the relationship that you had with

22 Milomir Stakic and his family. Yesterday you shared with us some insights

23 with respect to that relationship. I'm going to try to put some questions

24 to you so we can all better understand and appreciate Dr. Milomir Stakic.

25 And you being more than an acquaintance with him, you, sir, hopefully can

Page 9757

1 assist us in having a complete understanding of Dr. Stakic.

2 I apologise if I interrupt. It's not an attempt to be rude or to

3 not allow you to have an opportunity to fully and completely share with us

4 your views, your opinions, and your observations of Dr. Stakic. However,

5 at times, the Defence, as well as perhaps our learned friends from the OTP

6 and the Honourable Court, would like some further insights into those

7 meetings and developing relationships that you have of Dr. Stakic.

8 So if I may, sir, do you consider and did you consider Dr. Stakic

9 as a friend?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. During his youth, did you, sir, at any time observe whether or not

12 Dr. Stakic was a violent person?

13 A. As I've already told you, he was no different really from the

14 other children. He was not a violent person. He was not one of the

15 leaders, either, although, perhaps, because he was exceptionally

16 intelligent, he deserved to be one.

17 Q. Would you describe Dr. Stakic as a nonviolent person; and if so,

18 explain why?

19 A. Well, as children play, there is usually contact between the

20 children. And he never returned any blows or any shoves that he received.

21 And whenever he was on the receiving end, he never complained. He never

22 told tales to his parents or the teacher. Even if most pupils tend to do

23 that.

24 Q. And staying with the time period of Dr. Stakic's youth, did you

25 feel you knew him enough in order to make an assessment at that time of

Page 9758

1 his character?

2 A. Yes. I knew him definitely well enough to be able to judge his

3 character and nature.

4 Q. Explain to us, if you will, sir, in your opinion, the character of

5 Dr. Stakic.

6 A. Dr. Stakic is a silent, peaceful man who doesn't like to impose on

7 other people. I knew him when he was growing up. He is a family-loving

8 man. He respects and values other people and would never harm anyone on

9 any account.

10 Q. Just so we can get an appreciation of the times that you saw

11 Dr. Stakic as a youth, would you say that it was on a daily and regular

12 basis? Did you see him often during his youth?

13 A. Yes, on a daily basis, I should say. It was his -- the education

14 he received at home which then continued at school.

15 Q. Did you at any time, sir, see or observe Dr. Stakic making

16 discriminatory remarks against any non-Serbs, including yourself?

17 A. No, by no means. He loved me exceptionally well. He almost

18 adored me. Not only did he love me, but also his parents. Not his

19 parents, the entire village.

20 Q. You mentioned on page 42, line 10, that Dr. Stakic, among other

21 things, was a peaceful man. Can you share with us what you mean by that

22 and the basis for that conclusion?

23 A. He was a silent person, the sort of person who wouldn't impose on

24 other people in any way. As a boy, he never wanted to be in the

25 forefront. He never wanted to be very prominent. He even helped perhaps

Page 9759

1 less talented pupils to master all the lessons at school.

2 Q. Share with us, if you will, Dr. Stakic's character at that time.

3 And I know you highlighted it briefly for us yesterday, with respect to

4 women during the time period of his youth. What I'm looking for,

5 Mr. Makovski, if I may, is to determine whether or not he exhibited any

6 signs of violence against women, et cetera.

7 A. When he was a boy, they all played together in one group, boys and

8 girls, there was no difference. But he never displayed any violent

9 attitude to boys or to girls, for that matter. Later, I spent time with

10 him when he was already an adult, a married man. I already said that even

11 the nurses working at the medical sector, all the lady doctors held him in

12 high esteem. Not only did they hold him in high esteem, they had respect

13 for him. I observed that their relationship was very often playful. They

14 told each other jokes, and their relationship was just normal.

15 Q. And sir, you were able to reach that conclusion based upon your

16 personal experiences and contacts with these nurses working at the medical

17 sector. Correct? And these lady doctors, as you identify; correct?

18 A. Yes. I used to go there very often to his office, and I noticed

19 that.

20 Q. Share with us, if you can, your opinion in connection with

21 Dr. Stakic relating to his morality and decency?

22 A. Dr. Stakic's morality was spotless, impeccable. It was a very

23 high level of personal ethics.

24 Q. If I may move to the time period of the spring and summer of 1992,

25 did you know, sir, in the spring and summer of 1992, that Dr. Stakic was

Page 9760

1 initially vice-president of the Municipal Assembly in the Prijedor

2 Municipality?

3 A. Yes, I knew that.

4 Q. Did you also subsequent to that, sir, learn that after April 30th,

5 1992, Dr. Stakic purportedly was president of the Municipal Assembly of

6 the Prijedor Municipality?

7 A. Yes, I was aware of that, too.

8 Q. At that time, sir, can you share with us what your thoughts were

9 with respect to Dr. Stakic's personality being placed in that function?

10 And sir, what I'm looking for is to have you make an assessment, if you

11 can, based on your personal observations of Dr. Stakic whether he was a

12 man who for that position had a lack of experience and was naive possibly,

13 and as I think you mentioned, would at times and could be subject to being

14 manipulated. Can you share that for me, please.

15 A. Dr. Stakic had a very uneasy position in politics. He didn't

16 really seem to be finding his way around with much ease. Because in

17 politics, a different set of rules applies. It's the homo homini lupus

18 sort of thing in politics. Or to use the boxer's jargon, there are plenty

19 of punches below the belt in that environment. And often people didn't

20 choose really -- they weren't choosy about their means to attain their

21 ends. But Dr. Stakic was a man who loved and appreciated other people.

22 And he never wanted to harm anyone, not by his action, not by his words.

23 That is why he was not really at ease in politics, I think. I believe

24 that other people may have used this, his human kindness, to simply

25 manipulate him as a human being, as a young human being.

Page 9761

1 Q. With respect to philanthropy, charity, and humanitarianism, do

2 you, sir, have an opinion of those issues on the character and reputation

3 of Dr. Stakic? And share with us any insights you may have in connection

4 with that.

5 A. Dr. Stakic, in simply terms, should have, and I believe he did it

6 later, stayed in his job. He should have dedicated his life to medicine.

7 It's a shame that he spent one part of his life in politics. If he

8 hadn't, he would have done so much more in the medical science. I believe

9 that he would be, and I still leave that he will still be a top-class

10 doctor.

11 Q. Knowing Dr. Stakic as you did, and do, could you ever envision a

12 situation or a circumstance in which Dr. Stakic would aid or assist in

13 committing a crime against women and children?

14 A. I believe that he could have never done something like that.

15 Q. Why, sir?

16 A. Because of the way he is, his personality.

17 Q. Could you ever envision Dr. Stakic committing a crime against any

18 individual, men, women or children?

19 A. No, never.

20 Q. Could you envision a situation, sir, having known Dr. Stakic as

21 long as you have, of Dr. Stakic ordering a third party to commit a crime

22 against any individuals, including men, women, or children?

23 A. I simply cannot imagine any such thing. At that time, I never

24 heard anybody uttering a bad -- a single bad word about Dr. Stakic. Had I

25 heard anybody saying a bad word about him, or saying that he had done

Page 9762

1 something bad, believe me, I wouldn't be sitting here today.

2 Q. Following up on that answer, then, sir, I have a two-part

3 question. First, is it true that at no time during the spring and summer

4 of 1992 did you hear Dr. Stakic or were told by any individuals that

5 Dr. Stakic made discriminatory remarks that would be deemed to be

6 intimidating non-Serbs, including Muslims and Croats, among others?

7 A. Let me tell you something: At that time, I couldn't follow the

8 media. There was no electricity. Whatever I could hear, I heard from

9 neighbours who were standing in front of my house, on the street, at

10 school. But I never heard anything bad about Dr. Stakic.

11 Q. You mentioned yesterday, and I apologise I don't have the

12 transcript yet, and I'll try to paraphrase it, that you met Dr. Stakic

13 again in 1992, and that you embraced when he saw you while you were with

14 your wife, and that he identified you as his "dear teacher," I believe.

15 Do you remember that testimony?

16 A. Yes, I remember that as if had happened yesterday. I have very

17 fond memories of that meeting, and that was approximately sometime in

18 mid-July. It was summer.

19 Q. That's my question to you first: Do you remember when this

20 meeting occurred?

21 A. That meeting occurred in the afternoon in mid-July.

22 Q. Sometime in July of 1992. Can you tell us where you encountered

23 and saw Dr. Stakic in July of 1992?

24 A. I said that I had met him at the Oskar cafe-bar, or at Kod Pale as

25 they call it there.

Page 9763

1 Q. [Previous interpretation continues]... Question, but I think it's

2 clear and I mean no disrespect to you, we have used from time to time

3 categorisation of ethnic backgrounds. I know you don't consider

4 yourself -- let me ask the question. You are not a Serb. Correct?

5 A. No, I'm not.

6 Q. Again with my deepest respect, can I clarify for the purposes of

7 my couple questions, you are a non-Serb. Correct?

8 A. That is correct.

9 Q. At that meeting in July of 1992, to the best of your recollection,

10 were other Serbs in this cafe, other than Dr. Stakic?

11 A. I don't know who was in the cafe. I didn't pay attention to them.

12 When the doctor approached me, I felt a certain warmth, and I couldn't see

13 anybody else.

14 Q. [Previous interpretation continues]... On the part of Dr. Stakic

15 to come towards you and to embrace you, despite the fact, and again, with

16 the deepest respect, you are a non-Serb?

17 A. Miso was the one who saw me first. I didn't see him. He was the

18 one who saw me. I have been brought up not to look at other people's

19 tables to see what they are eating or drinking. He was the one who saw me

20 first and rushed towards me. Absolutely irrespective of the fact whether

21 I was a Serb or a Croat or a Bosniak, that was not important. In my head,

22 it never existed, and I also believe that it never existed in the mind of

23 Miso.

24 Q. Perhaps it wasn't translated because I didn't allow you to

25 conclude your answer. But the question on line -- I'm sorry. Perhaps it

Page 9764

1 wasn't translated because I didn't allow you to conclude your previous

2 answer. But my question on line 15 should have started: "Did Dr. Stakic

3 hesitate, or did you see any hesitancy on the part of Dr. Stakic in coming

4 towards you, a non-Serb?" In July of 1992.

5 A. I will repeat once again. I didn't see Dr. Stakic sitting at the

6 table. It was he who saw me. I also didn't see other people sitting at

7 the table. I have been brought up not to look at people's dining tables

8 to see what they are eating or drinking. I wasn't interested in that.

9 But the doctor saw me, rushed towards me. I think that he was so glad to

10 see me, as if I was his own father.

11 Q. [Previous interpretation continues]...

12 MR. KOUMJIAN: I think the problem is that counsel is asking his

13 question before the interpretation. That's why the transcript can't keep

14 up.

15 MR. OSTOJIC: I appreciate the --

16 THE INTERPRETER: Thank you, sir.

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You asked me whether he hesitated,

18 Dr. Stakic. No, not for a single moment did Dr. Stakic hesitate.

19 MR. OSTOJIC:

20 Q. In July of 1992, during this visit, did Dr. Stakic hesitate in any

21 manner whatsoever to embrace you, a non-Serb, in a public meeting place?

22 A. No. He didn't hesitate. He embraced me first and took me by

23 surprise. Then I was all of a sudden seized by a warmth, and there was a

24 surge of emotions. I was glad that after such a long time, I saw a former

25 child whom I really liked before.

Page 9765

1 Q. At any time during this conversation and meeting that you had with

2 Dr. Stakic in the public restaurant in July of 1992, did Dr. Stakic

3 exhibit any signs of nervousness, a cold attitude, or indifference towards

4 you, a non-Serb?

5 A. No. No. On the contrary. He was smiling; he was all smiles. He

6 was happy, joyful. He behaved as somebody who spots a dear friend whom he

7 hadn't seen in a long time.

8 Q. Can you share with us, sir, the respect that Dr. Stakic had and

9 has for your wife.

10 A. Yes. When I first came to Dr. Stakic's apartment with my wife, he

11 didn't know my wife. But his wife knew my wife because the two of them

12 are natives of the same village. He was a gentleman, and he behaved as

13 one. He pulled a chair for my wife and asked her to take a seat first.

14 To my mind, this is a sign of good manners, and this portrayed him as a

15 gentleman in my eyes. In his speech, he didn't use any bad or indecent

16 words that men sometimes use when they talk to each other. He chose his

17 words very carefully, making sure that all of these words were polite.

18 Q. I don't want to ask a leading question. However, you shared with

19 me, sir, a couple days ago an experience that you were starting to tell us

20 about your wife. And you also mentioned, just to refresh your

21 recollection, that your wife is considerably younger than you are. Can

22 you share with us the respect that Dr. Stakic had to your wife, to a man

23 who's a non-Serb, to a younger woman perhaps closer to the age of

24 Dr. Stakic? And I'm only trying to refresh your recollection in

25 connection with that which you shared with me previously.

Page 9766

1 A. Yes. My wife is 12 years younger than me. She is a very pretty

2 woman, I should say. She is Serbian. She was born in a -- in a village

3 called Busnovi, the same village where Miso's wife was born. I used to

4 work in that village school for 15 years teaching older children. I was

5 an assistant chief administrator of the school, the principal of that

6 school, and the villagers of that village held me in high esteem. They

7 respected me, although I'm not a Serb. I never experienced, in all the 35

8 years of my work, somebody putting me down or belittling me because I am

9 not a Serb.

10 On the contrary, everybody respected me and held me in high

11 esteem. And although I came with my wife at that time, every man tends to

12 display a certain degree of lustful feelings towards good-looking women.

13 You can see it in their eyes. But in Miso's eyes, I didn't see any signs

14 of that. He respected me, and therefore, he respected my wife.

15 Q. Sir, at any time did Dr. Stakic or anyone tell you that Dr. Stakic

16 was seeking to be a part of a plan to make an ethnically pure municipality

17 in 1992?

18 A. No. As I've already told you, in 1992, I met him. We exchanged a

19 few words. And the next time I saw him was in 1994 when I sought him out

20 to ask for medical assistance.

21 Q. We'll get to that in a moment, I hope. Help me to understand

22 Dr. Stakic not only as a student that you've just done but also as the

23 son, while you interchanged with his parents. Describe for us, if you

24 will, his relationship with his parents, specifically that which you've

25 observed.

Page 9767

1 A. His relationship with his parents was exceptional. He was tender

2 towards them. He was very loyal to his family. While he was a student of

3 medicine in Banja Luka, he would spend every free moment that he had with

4 his family, unlike most of the youngsters who tend to go out to socialise

5 with other young people of their age, with girls. Instead of that, he

6 would go to his native village to see his parents. He helped them with

7 heavy farmwork. And I'm sure you will recognise that very few young

8 people, adolescents, that is, will do that.

9 Q. Staying with this period and your observations of Dr. Stakic as

10 the son, in describing for us that, did you notice at any time Dr. Stakic

11 exhibiting any disrespect, anger, or hatred towards his parents?

12 A. What I've just told you is based on what I heard from his cousin

13 in Banja Luka in 1994. It was when Miso sent me there for some medical

14 tests. I had developed a heart condition, so he sent me to a test called

15 ergometry. A nurse -- the nurse who worked there was his relative. While

16 we were chatting, the two of us, by accident, I happened to mention to her

17 that it was Miso who had referred me for this test. And then she told me

18 about him and the way he was as a student.

19 Q. [Previous interpretation continues]... At any time tell you that

20 Dr. Stakic was disrespectful or exhibited any anger towards them as

21 parents? Did they ever complain to you or tell you and share with you the

22 type of son Dr. Stakic was?

23 A. Never. Not his mother, Mira, not his father, Milan. They never

24 complained, not in a single word, against their son. They both loved him

25 from the bottom of their hearts, and he returned their love and respect

Page 9768

1 with equal measure.

2 Q. If I may ask you to focus on the relationship Dr. Stakic had with

3 his children, I believe your testimony yesterday was that you were able to

4 personally observe that relationship. So now describe for us, please,

5 Dr. Stakic as a father.

6 A. I was in his apartment several times, and I didn't notice him

7 using harsh words in communication with his children. On the contrary.

8 He was very tender. Not only towards his children, but also towards his

9 wife, whom he respected and still respects.

10 Q. You anticipated my next question. In addition, I wanted to ask

11 about the relationship of Dr. Stakic as a husband. Did likewise his wife

12 share the same respect towards Dr. Stakic as he did towards her? Or to

13 the best of your ability, describe their relationship, that which you've

14 personally observed.

15 A. There was mutual trust and respect in that relationship. They

16 cared about each other. They loved each other. And most importantly, for

17 a family to be happy, that is the most important thing. Also, for their

18 children's happiness. One of the reasons may be that he himself had grown

19 up in such a family where the wife, the mother, was deeply respected and

20 where children were loved. So he continued down the same path with his

21 own family.

22 Q. With the Court's permission, I'm going to ask you, Mr. Makovski,

23 can you share with us your reaction when you heard that Dr. Stakic was

24 detained and arrested and brought to The Hague. What was your reaction,

25 sir?

Page 9769

1 A. I cried. Even now, whenever I think back to that, tears swell in

2 my eyes. A man like him, a son like Dr. Stakic, a parent, a father like

3 him, a husband like him, exceptionally honest, a diligent, hard-working

4 man, to be arrested as a war criminal, I took a long time to pull myself

5 back together. My emotions were, how should I put it, my emotions, my

6 feelings for that man, I don't think I can put this into words right now.

7 I can't find the right words, how difficult it was for me, how bad I felt

8 about it.

9 Q. Perhaps I can change the subject a little, and then with the

10 Court's permission, we'll come back to this issue and others with respect

11 to Dr. Stakic's character and reputation, if necessary.

12 Sir, in the spring and summer of 1992, where did you reside?

13 A. I resided in Prijedor.

14 Q. And during that school year, sir, specifically from April 30th

15 through the end of the school year, which I believe is, what?

16 A. The end of the school year was in late May 1992.

17 Q. During that period of time, did you, sir, as a teacher, from April

18 30th through the end of the school year, did you have colleagues who were

19 working at the school who were of the ethnic background known as Bosniak

20 Muslims, with all due respect?

21 A. Yes. I socialised with people regardless of their ethnic

22 background. I socialised with Bosniaks, Bosnian Muslims. I had

23 colleagues, workmates, Azedin Oklopcic. He was a teacher of history and

24 geography. Said Mesanovic was there, too. He taught physics and maths.

25 Enver Alagic who taught physical education. We were all friends, and the

Page 9770

1 feeling was always mutual.

2 Q. During the time period, sir, of April --

3 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, sir, please.

4 MR. OSTOJIC: Thank you.

5 Q. During the time period of April 30th, 1992, up through and

6 including an incident at Hambarine of May 22nd, 1992, do you have a

7 recollection, sir, that your colleagues that you've just mentioned

8 continued to work on a regular and daily basis at the school?

9 A. Yes, they came regularly, day in, day out.

10 Q. Likewise, sir, we understand from the testimony that was led by

11 the OTP and some from the Defence, that the tensions were high during the

12 spring and summer of 1992 in the Prijedor Municipality among the various

13 ethnic groups. Did you experience at any time during the summer and

14 spring of 1992 any parents sharing their views in connection with safety

15 and security of their children at the schools who were not of the Serb

16 ethnic background?

17 A. Yes. Where I used to work, there were Croatian children, too.

18 And of course, parents would come to see me. They would come worried

19 about their children. I told them there was no need for them to worry,

20 that I will guard their children against harm just as I would guard my

21 own. Because children, for me, are the most important thing, just like a

22 doctor must take the oath of Hippocrates, so it was my, even if

23 unprescribed, duty and oath as a teacher that children were what matter

24 the most. Children are not born Croats, Muslims, or Serbs. A child is a

25 child. And for me, a child is always sacred.

Page 9771

1 Q. Regardless of their ethnic background. Correct?

2 A. Precisely.

3 Q. Did at any time, sir, during your personal observations of

4 Dr. Stakic's family, specifically his parents and his wife, did you ever

5 determine whether or not they held any prejudices or had feelings of

6 discriminatory nature against non-Serbs, Bosniak Muslims and Croatians?

7 A. No, not a single word, not a single gesture would have led me to

8 believe anything like that.

9 Q. Was Dr. Stakic, having known him in his youth, raised by his

10 parents to be a purist and promote some sort of Serbian -- pure Serbian

11 identity?

12 A. No. He was raised, and that was also what I later taught him, to

13 love all people regardless of their skin colour, regardless of their

14 ethnic background. He was taught to respect all the good people and to

15 steer clear of all evil people. Because there are evil people

16 everywhere. In every ethnic group, you have evil people. Fortunately,

17 however, there is still a good number of good people around, too.

18 Q. And do you have an opinion, sir, with respect to Dr. Stakic as to

19 whether he loved all people regardless of their skin colour, regardless of

20 their ethnic background, and treated them fairly and decently throughout

21 the period of time that you knew him?

22 A. Yes, I could compare this to building a house. When you build a

23 house, first you lay the foundations. If the foundations are solid, then

24 for a long time, you won't need to do any mending on the house. What I

25 wish to say is that the foundations of a good, proper upbringing are with

Page 9772

1 the family and with the school. And you can see the results of this

2 quality upbringing with Dr. Stakic even today.

3 Q. With the Court's permission, I'd like to ask a final open-ended

4 question, if I may. Is there anything, sir, else at this time that you

5 would like to share with us with respect to Dr. Stakic, his personality,

6 reputation, and character?

7 A. I've said whatever I wanted to say, and I have nothing to add.

8 MR. OSTOJIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

9 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: The trial stays adjourned until 12.35.

10 --- Recess taken at 12.16 p.m.

11 --- On resuming at 12.39 p.m.

12 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: As to the fact that the witness is not in the

13 courtroom, I take it that there is any request by one of the parties? Or

14 otherwise, the witness should be brought in immediately.

15 Thank you. Mr. Makovski, may I ask you to answer now the

16 questions put to you by the Prosecution in the same decent and concrete

17 way as you did before. Thank you.

18 Cross-examined by Mr. Koumjian:

19 Q. Mr. Makovski, thank you, sir, for coming to The Hague and for

20 enlightening us with your knowledge of Dr. Stakic's childhood and

21 upbringing and what you know about his life. I'm going to try in the

22 interests of being as efficient as possible with the limited time we have

23 this week to ask you very direct questions and I appreciate you trying to

24 give me as concrete an answer as possible.

25 As I, you told us you taught Dr. Stakic his alphabet. Can you

Page 9773

1 tell us what grades you were teaching when Dr. Stakic was your pupil.

2 A. The first, second, and third grade.

3 Q. So you were his teacher for those three grades. Is that correct?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Now, you testified that after Dr. Stakic moved away for his

6 schooling, I believe, and went to higher grades, you saw him again in 1992

7 in a restaurant called Oskar or Pale. Is it correct that the restaurant

8 had changed his name from Oskar to Pale?

9 A. No. The restaurant's name was Oskar, but the man who runs it and

10 owns it, the man's name was Pale. And that's what people to used to call

11 the restaurant, Pale's. But actually the official name of the restaurant

12 is Oskar.

13 Q. Thank you very much. I understand you were excited about seeing

14 Dr. Stakic on that occasion. Did you happen to notice who the other

15 individuals were? You said there were five or six individuals with him.

16 Did you notice or recognise any of those people?

17 A. No, I didn't. I wasn't looking. I wasn't interested. I was only

18 interested in Dr. Stakic coming forward and rushing towards me, and even

19 if he had been surrounded by a hundred thousand of other people, I

20 wouldn't have seen them.

21 Q. Thank you. Sir, I gather from your testimony that you believe you

22 know Dr. Stakic well. You know him well. Is that correct?

23 A. Yes, that's correct.

24 Q. I'd like to ask you a few questions about his life, and perhaps

25 you can enlighten us about some areas, that you can provide further

Page 9774

1 information. First, before I begin, were you a member of any political

2 party following the -- during or following the 1990 elections?

3 A. Yes. I was a member of the Serbian Democratic Party since 1994.

4 In that year, there was a possibility that I would become the principal of

5 the school, and no person who was not a member of a party could be the

6 principal. That is why I became a member of the Serbian Democratic Party,

7 although I'm not a Serb. I had no problem with becoming a member.

8 However, as I've already pointed out, in 1994, I became very ill and

9 developed a heart condition. Dr. Stakic practically saved my life. So I

10 couldn't become the principal of the school because my illness got in the

11 way.

12 But that was the sole and only reason why I joined the party, and

13 that was the only time I ever set foot in those offices, and never again

14 after that. Nor did I ever attend any of the party's meetings, the

15 meetings of the Serbian Democratic Party.

16 Q. Thank you. That answer is helpful to us.

17 Sir, can you tell us, then, in 1990, were you living in the area

18 of Maricka in the surroundings of Omarska?

19 A. No, this whole time ever since 1950, I have been residing in the

20 town of Prijedor.

21 Q. Okay. Did your work or your friendships cause you to travel often

22 to the area of Omarska? Were you familiar with what was going on in the

23 area of Omarska and Maricka?

24 A. No, I didn't travel to Maricka during that period. I worked there

25 between 1968 and 1975. In 1972 -- in 1971 and 1972, I wasn't working

Page 9775

1 there because I was doing my regular military service with the JNA.

2 Q. Thank you for --

3 A. At that time, the period of time you were referring to, I worked

4 in Busnovi.

5 Q. Thank you for that concrete answer. Sir, do you know what

6 Dr. Stakic's medical specialty was?

7 A. I couldn't say really.

8 Q. Sir, can you tell us about Dr. Stakic's political life? Do you

9 know if he was active in any political parties, and when he became active

10 in those parties?

11 A. Well, I never liked politics. My -- I was always particularly

12 fond of music, sports, and fishing. I never knew much about politics, I

13 never really followed politics. I only knew enough to know who the

14 president of the municipality was, who the mayor was. But the rest of it,

15 I wasn't interested in at all.

16 Q. So you were unaware of Dr. Stakic's political positions, his

17 activities in political parties, and his political views. Is that

18 correct?

19 A. That's correct. I don't know.

20 Q. Thank you very much.

21 Sir, we talked about the period of 1992, and you told us that

22 because of electricity, it was difficult to follow the media. But did

23 you -- perhaps you had a radio with batteries or read Kozarski Vjesnik.

24 Did you see any interviews or discussions in the media regarding

25 Dr. Stakic during the period from the takeover of the municipality on the

Page 9776

1 30th of April, 1992, let's say, through the end of that year?

2 A. I didn't have a radio with batteries. And I wasn't buying

3 Kozarski Vjesnik, the newspaper. So I had no idea really about political

4 life and what was going on, or about Dr. Stakic's work in that period.

5 Q. Thank you for that very concrete answer.

6 Sir, can you tell us when Dr. Stakic returned as the president of

7 the municipality of Prijedor? Are you aware that he was the president for

8 two different periods of time?

9 A. I am not aware of that.

10 Q. Thank you for that very precise answer.

11 Sir, did you hear about the attempts to arrest Simo Drljaca and

12 the arrest of Dr. Kovacevic in Prijedor in, I believe it was 1996 or 1997?

13 I believe it was 1997.

14 A. I heard of Dr. Kovacevic also through the media and also of

15 Simo Drljaca, who was arrested as far as I can remember, that is, there

16 was an armed conflict as a result of which he was killed. Jezero Gradina.

17 I heard this in the media.

18 Q. Sir, in your knowledge of Dr. Stakic's character, what you knew of

19 him as a child, was he a person who would run away from a false

20 accusation?

21 A. He's a sincere person. He would never run away from false

22 accusations, and he would never tell a lie. I'm absolutely convinced of

23 that. As a boy, he was always outspoken, sincere.

24 Q. Sir, are you aware of the fact that in 1997, after the attempt to

25 arrest Mr. Drljaca, that Dr. Stakic, who was then the president of the

Page 9777

1 municipality, fled Prijedor and went into hiding?

2 MR. OSTOJIC: For the record, if I may, just object to the form of

3 the question and we would like to have -- if the OTP could provide us with

4 that information since they are putting it to the witness.

5 MR. KOUMJIAN: I'll rephrase the question.

6 Q. Are you aware, sir, that following the attempt to arrest

7 Mr. Drljaca, and following the arrest of Mr. Kovacevic, Dr. Stakic left

8 his position in Prijedor? And it wasn't until 19 - excuse me - 2001 that

9 he was arrested and found in Belgrade?

10 A. Yes, I heard that he had left Prijedor, but I don't know where he

11 went to, whether he had fled, whether he just left of his own accord. I

12 couldn't say really. I only know that he did leave. Where he went to

13 eventually, I don't know, and I didn't ask.

14 Q. Thank you very much for answer, sir.

15 MR. KOUMJIAN: No further questions.

16 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: May I ask the usher to present Exhibit S2 to the

17 witness.

18 Questioned by the Court:

19 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Please put it on the ELMO directly.

20 Can you identify, Mr. Makovski, what is depicted on this map?

21 A. I can't see very clearly. I can only this line saying

22 "Prijedor." Can you zoom in a little bit, please.

23 Fine. All right.

24 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Would you please be so kind and tell us where,

25 at that time when you lived in Prijedor, where did you reside? Could you

Page 9778

1 point it? You have a pointer.

2 A. Let me take a minute, please.

3 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Could you please indicate it on the ELMO at

4 the --

5 A. It's near --

6 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Sorry to interrupt. Yes, there we can follow

7 what you are indicating.

8 MR. KOUMJIAN: Your Honour, if I could just suggest, there is a

9 bigger map, if Your Honour is interested. S2-1. The same map is blown

10 up.

11 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Yes, it may be of assistance.

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is too small for me to see

13 anything.

14 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: When using now S2-1, could you please focus on

15 the centre and put it on the ELMO and focus on the centre of Prijedor.

16 Can you now identify your place of residence?

17 A. Just a minute, please.

18 This is my street, Savo Kovacevic Street. And then I think it's

19 here, this, this building.

20 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Unfortunately, I can't see the coordinates from

21 here that we can describe it for the purposes of the transcript.

22 Does the Prosecution have the same map that we can see? No.

23 What would be the next important building?

24 A. The blue skyscraper. And near the blue one is the red one. You

25 may have heard of it.

Page 9779

1 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Right.

2 MR. KOUMJIAN: Your Honour, I do believe the street names appear,

3 if someone with extremely good eyesight tries to read those. Perhaps the

4 usher might be able to read them. I can't, on the screen.

5 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: But we know where we are. I think for the

6 purposes of transcript, this is enough.

7 What was the distance from your building to the building of the

8 Municipal Assembly?

9 A. About 150 metres.

10 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: So approximately the same distance to the

11 building of the SUP -- MUP, the police?

12 A. Yes, it's all nearby. You just have to cross the road.

13 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Please understand, it's unfortunate for us that

14 we don't have actually the possibility to visit the town of Prijedor. We

15 would really like to do so, but at the moment it seems not to be possible

16 at all. Therefore, we need your assistance, and we are extremely grateful

17 for this assistance.

18 I took it from your testimony of yesterday that apparently you

19 never visited Dr. Stakic in his -- at that time when he worked in the

20 municipal building, that you never visited him there in his capacity as

21 such. Is it correct?

22 A. Yes, that's correct.

23 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Have you been ever in 1992, for other reasons,

24 been in this -- in one of these two buildings?

25 A. I have been to the SUP building to ask for a permit. At that

Page 9780

1 time, you couldn't move about, about the town, the streets of Prijedor,

2 without a special authorisation. As I've already told you, I had a

3 property at Kozara, in Malo Palanciste. I used to go there quite often.

4 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: What was the reason that you needed such a

5 permit, and when did it start that you needed this permit?

6 A. Well, I simply needed to have it because you were not allowed for

7 security reasons to move about after the attack on Prijedor. I got the

8 authorisation after about 10 to 15 days following the attack on Prijedor.

9 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Did you have to queue up in the building or in

10 front of the building?

11 A. No. My friend's sister worked for the MUP, ministry of the

12 interior. So it was easy for me to obtain this authorisation.

13 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Did you ever see, either in front of the

14 building of the Municipal Assembly or of the police, people lining up

15 there, queuing up?

16 A. No, I didn't at that time.

17 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: You said "at that time." Sometime later or

18 earlier?

19 A. Well, I can tell you about the period preceding that time. I

20 didn't see anything. And later, if you want to know -- do you want to

21 know before the war, during the war, or after the war?

22 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: We should concentrate on 1992, and here

23 specifically --

24 A. No, no, I didn't.

25 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Tell me, where was the school building located?

Page 9781

1 A. Just tell me what exactly you mean. The school where I worked?

2 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: The school where you worked, yes, please.

3 A. You can't see it on this map, not my school. My school is 20

4 kilometres away from -- 20 kilometres outside the town of Prijedor to the

5 southeast.

6 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: In which direction? Could you name a village or

7 hamlet in which direction it was?

8 A. I can specify exactly how you get there. You go -- you take the

9 road to Celpak, and then from Celpak to a hamlet called Gomjenica. And

10 then you follow the road to Cela, and then on to Sanicani where the fish

11 pond is. And then to Rakelici, Knezevici, Kovac, Busnovi, and then the

12 last stop is Kondici.

13 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Yes. Thank you for this clear information.

14 Whenever you took this route, were you ever stopped by control

15 posts, or did you have free access on the road during the entire period,

16 during the entire year of 1992?

17 A. There were no checkpoints along that particular road. And anyone

18 was free to move about that particular part of Prijedor Municipality.

19 There were no problems whatsoever.

20 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: So this permit you mentioned before, you needed

21 only to visit your farm? May we call it farm. But not a special permit

22 for taking the daily route to school. Correct?

23 A. That's correct.

24 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Did you often pass by the building of the

25 Municipal Assembly or the police office?

Page 9782

1 A. Not at the time. I would go to the bus stop; and from there, by

2 bus, I would go to school.

3 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Coming now to this meeting in mid-July 1992 in

4 the restaurant Oskar, apparently the owner named Pale, would it -- could

5 we see this on the map you have before you, where it's located?

6 For the purposes of the transcript, once again, could you assist

7 us -- can you identify the name of the road. Unfortunately, my glasses

8 are not good enough to read this.

9 A. Approximately here, in the vicinity of the new hospital, about a

10 hundred metres as the crow flies.

11 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: How far is it from there to Keraterm?

12 A. I really wouldn't be able to tell you.

13 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Have you ever been at the Keraterm building?

14 A. No, never.

15 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Did you pass by? It seems to be not that far

16 for example, from this restaurant, looking on the map.

17 A. Where is Keraterm? The vicinity of which other building? Then I

18 shall perhaps be able to tell you immediately how far it is from somewhere

19 else.

20 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: You can see Cirkin Polje, first of all. That's

21 right. And then can you find yourself Keraterm building? Otherwise we

22 for these purposes should use S2.

23 A. I really don't know.

24 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Could the usher please be so kind and put S2 on

25 the ELMO.

Page 9783

1 And please, zoom a little bit. Yes, stop. Thank you.

2 Can you see now the building where one can read "Keraterm."

3 A. Yes.

4 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Did you ever pass this area, by car or...?

5 A. At that time, I never went there. I only took the road towards

6 Malo Palanciste, and this location, Keraterm, I don't know where it is.

7 I've heard of a place that was something like a collection centre there.

8 But believe me, I never passed that way; I never paid any attention to

9 that. I can now see that this is in Prijedor, but I don't know what

10 building it is. Is that the brickyard building or something else? I

11 really don't know.

12 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Is it your testimony under solemn declaration

13 that you never heard that -- or did you hear whether or not people were

14 brought to Keraterm in 1992?

15 A. Yes, I heard of Keraterm. I heard that there were collection

16 centres there for people who were supposed to leave and go somewhere else.

17 That is all I know and all I ever heard.

18 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Do you know about other such centres, as you

19 call it?

20 A. Yes. I'm also familiar with the name of Trnopolje.

21 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: And what about Omarska?

22 A. I have also heard of Omarska. That was later on. And I also

23 later on heard about the barracks located in Manjaca.

24 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: So these four areas or buildings were used for

25 the same purpose from your point of view?

Page 9784

1 A. Well, that's what I've heard. Believe me, I didn't see any of

2 them. I only heard. How credible that is, I really don't know.

3 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Would you be surprised if I would tell you that

4 the predecessor of Dr. Stakic was brought to one of these, as you call it,

5 centres and later on disappeared? Nobody knows about his fate. We heard

6 his spouse telling us that she don't want to believe that he was killed;

7 she still hopes that he's alive. So therefore, we have to take it in the

8 moment that he just disappeared, the one being and exercising the same

9 function as Dr. Stakic immediately before the takeover. Did you know

10 about this?

11 A. No, I didn't.

12 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Coming back to this meeting, mid-July 1992, how

13 long did it take approximately? Ten minutes, an hour?

14 A. Five minutes approximately.

15 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: You told us it was a group of about 5, 6

16 persons. Were some of them in uniform?

17 A. I've already said, even if there had been a lot more people, I

18 wouldn't have noticed anybody but Miso. I didn't see anybody. I didn't

19 see how they were dressed. I don't have -- I'm not that observant in any

20 case. For example, my wife will sometimes hold it against me and will get

21 angry if I didn't notice that she has bought something new and she has put

22 something new on, a new piece of clothing.

23 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Happens apparently in many families.

24 But coming back to this discussion, you expressed, if I take

25 the -- your entire description of the development of Dr. Stakic, I take it

Page 9785

1 that to a certain extent, you were disappeared that he didn't continue

2 with his career as a physician. Did you express your disappointment also

3 vis-a-vis Dr. Stakic at that time?

4 A. At that moment, we just exchanged a few conventional phrases such

5 as "how are you," "how's life," "how have you been doing." The words that

6 are exchanged between a couple of friends who don't have a lot of time for

7 in-depth conversations. That was a brief meeting, but a pleasant one.

8 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Then let me come to the second meeting. No

9 doubt that it was focussed on your health problems. But did you at that

10 point in time discuss with Dr. Stakic, because this is of extreme

11 importance for us to know, what brings a physician to the decision to act

12 in the political area? Did you discuss this with your good friend,

13 Dr. Stakic?

14 A. Not for a single moment. I told you, I don't like politics. I

15 don't even like discussing politics. I'm sure you are aware of what

16 politics did to us. That's why I don't ever again want to hear the word

17 "politics," let alone discuss it myself.

18 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: I can totally understand this view.

19 Nevertheless, I have to ask you, did you know if, and in case yes, when

20 Dr. Stakic was no longer president of the Municipal Assembly in Prijedor?

21 A. I don't know the exact date.

22 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: But an approximation, was it before 1994?

23 A. I don't know. Between 1992 and 1994, I didn't see him. I only

24 saw him in 1994 when he was already the head of the occupational medicine

25 department.

Page 9786

1 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: And you didn't take the opportunity to discuss

2 with him "now I'm satisfied again you're in the right job and departing

3 from politics"? Did you exchange words on this issue, what I believe

4 would be normal among friends?

5 A. Our conversation focussed on my condition. The diagnosis was

6 angina pectoris stabilis. My life was at stake. We didn't have time for

7 other things. We didn't, therefore, discuss anything else.

8 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Some minutes ago, transcript page 59, line 13 to

9 14, you stated: "I only knew enough to know who the president of the

10 municipality was, who the mayor was."

11 Who were these persons, president of the municipality, mayor?

12 A. At that time, in 1992?

13 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Right.

14 A. I only knew that in 1992, Miso was the president of the

15 municipality. And later on, I didn't know who the president of the

16 municipality was because the whirlwind of the war was raging. And I

17 focussed on my family, myself, and my job.

18 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: And I quoted that -- from the transcript is

19 reads "the president of the municipality" and the "mayor." Is it the same

20 for you, or are these two difference persons?

21 A. In the specific case of Prijedor, currently, there's the president

22 of the municipality, Mr. Murselovic, and the mayor of Prijedor, Mrs. Nada

23 Sevo.

24 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: What about 1992? Apparently from this quote, it

25 reads "I only knew enough in 1992." Were these two different positions,

Page 9787

1 one president of the municipality and the other the mayor, or was it the

2 same position, from your point of view?

3 A. I think that in 1992, the two were the same because only recently

4 in Prijedor I've heard there were two positions, the president of the

5 municipality, and the mayor of the town of Prijedor.

6 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Thank you. One final question: Were you ever

7 aware that during the year 1992, one or several of your colleagues

8 suddenly disappeared, no longer appeared at work, and later on nobody knew

9 about their fate?

10 A. The school year 1992 ended. It was the end of May. And the next

11 school year began in October 1992. I've already stated that in my school,

12 the -- there was a huge fluctuation of staff. There was a huge turnover

13 of staff. So people would come, stay for half a year or so; and then

14 whenever they found a better job, a job closer to their place of

15 residence, they would leave. There were a number of colleagues, Serbs,

16 Croats, and Bosniaks whom I knew only for a short period of time. They

17 would come and go.

18 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Did you ever hear of one of your colleagues, be

19 it concrete in your school or in other schools, being detained in one of

20 the four facilities you mentioned yourself previously?

21 A. No, I didn't, believe me.

22 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Thank you.

23 Judge Vassylenko.

24 JUDGE VASSYLENKO: Mr. Makovski, am I right interpreting the

25 meaning of the first name of Dr. Stakic as a person who is nice to the

Page 9788

1 world?

2 A. Yes.

3 JUDGE VASSYLENKO: My next question: In some newspapers, and by

4 some witnesses, Dr. Stakic was described as a polite, quiet, and calm

5 person who is in control of his feelings. And at the same time, as a

6 resolute and determined man. Do you agree with this assessment of

7 Dr. Stakic?

8 A. Yes.

9 JUDGE VASSYLENKO: Then, in that regard, does Dr. Stakic resemble

10 you a person who would allow somebody to manipulate himself?

11 A. I believe he wouldn't, but people involved in politics will do all

12 sorts of things which may appear sincere and honest. However, when one

13 looks deeper, one will find only lies. And if he had believed other

14 people's words, the words of the people who actually lied to him, then he

15 may have been manipulated by people who would present their lies as

16 truths.

17 JUDGE VASSYLENKO: Thank you very much.

18 One more question. How can you explain that Dr. Stakic, being

19 clever, intelligent, decent, peaceful, and nonviolent person, agreed to

20 become the president of Prijedor Municipality Crisis Staff in the

21 situation when it was apparently clear that violence is imminent and

22 unavoidable?

23 A. I don't know what you are asking me. If you have asked me why he

24 accepted to be the president of the municipality, then I would be able to

25 answer your question. But I'm not aware of any Crisis Staff. This is a

Page 9789

1 completely new term for me. If your question regards the function of the

2 president of the municipality, I can answer.

3 JUDGE VASSYLENKO: Are you aware now that Dr. Stakic was the

4 president of the Crisis Staff in 1992?

5 A. No, I don't know.

6 JUDGE VASSYLENKO: Dr. Stakic was the president of the

7 Crisis Staff?

8 A. No, I don't.

9 JUDGE VASSYLENKO: So my last question: Today, you told at

10 transcript page 49, line 6, that you did find Dr. Stakic smiling, happy,

11 and joyful, in July of 1992. It was known that it was time when

12 Dr. Stakic was the president of the Crisis Staff. And when after the use

13 of armed force against non-Serbian population, detention camps were

14 created, and forceful removal of the non-Serb population in Prijedor

15 municipality started. How can you explain this?

16 A. I allow that this may be true, but believe me when I say I don't

17 know anything about that.

18 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Judge Argibay, please.

19 JUDGE ARGIBAY: Good afternoon, sir. I have a couple of

20 questions, very short, I hope.

21 You told us that you had a special permit to travel to your -- I

22 don't know, as a house or place in the mountains or in the fields. And

23 then you didn't need a permit to go to your school every day. The

24 question is why the difference?

25 A. My journey to school took me mostly through Serbian villages.

Page 9790

1 Only Cela was predominantly Bosniak, so there were no problems there.

2 Whereas my property on Mount Kozara is on the opposite side. And I had to

3 pass through the entire town. And only then would I reach my property.

4 For safety reasons, one needed a permit in order to move through the town.

5 The permit obligation applied to everybody, not only to me who is not a

6 Serb, but also to others, to Serbs as well.

7 JUDGE ARGIBAY: I understood that. But the question is, then, it

8 depended on the road you should take at that time that you were needing a

9 permit. And the road you took to the mountains was to the northeast, I

10 suppose, of the town of Prijedor. Is that correct?

11 A. Northwest.

12 JUDGE ARGIBAY: Northwest, okay.

13 A. Yes, yes, you're correct. Northeast.

14 JUDGE ARGIBAY: Okay. Then if you wanted to go, let's say,

15 southwest where there are a lot of villages that we were informed were

16 mostly from Croatian ethnicity, you needed a permit also?

17 A. No.

18 JUDGE ARGIBAY: Why not?

19 A. I don't know. I never went there. I assume that you're talking

20 about the area towards Ljubija.

21 JUDGE ARGIBAY: Exactly.

22 A. I never went there. I mostly went to my workplace. My wife is

23 also from that area. And I really didn't have any need to go to other

24 areas or other parts of the town.

25 JUDGE ARGIBAY: No colleagues of you had commented on that sort of

Page 9791

1 things, for instance, going to school, I mean? Some colleagues of you

2 might come from Prijedor also and might not have needed a permit to go to

3 school. But then they could go other places; it is not necessary for you

4 to have been there. Have you heard about a permit being required to go to

5 Ljubija? And I'm sorry for the pronunciation.

6 A. I understood your question. These passes were issued once the

7 school was already over. It was in June. Some 10 or 15 days after the

8 attack on Prijedor. These passes were valid for some ten days or so, and

9 then they were discontinued. The passes were in place for a short period

10 of time until the situation in the town was again calm and restored back

11 to order.

12 JUDGE ARGIBAY: And when was that?

13 A. That was approximately around the 10th or 15th of June 1992, up to

14 the 25th of June, 1992. Within that period, the schools didn't work, so

15 my colleagues did not come to school. They didn't need to go to school.

16 I went to school because my wife, my wife's parents and relatives live

17 near that school. So I would go to visit them. At the same time, I had

18 that property on Mount Kozara, and I needed the permit to go there. But

19 it was a mere formality.

20 JUDGE ARGIBAY: Thank you, sir.

21 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: The Defence.

22 MR. OSTOJIC: If I may, Your Honour, yes we have two areas we

23 would like to question.

24 Further examination by Mr. Ostojic:

25 MR. OSTOJIC: I should probably check with the Court on this first

Page 9792

1 one, it's regarding the indictment. It was a question that was raised by

2 Mr. Koumjian. So I would like to ask this witness specifically a question

3 relating to the indictment in March of 2001.

4 Q. Sir, you were asked a couple of questions by the Prosecutor in

5 connection with Dr. Stakic leaving Prijedor and Dr. Stakic being arrested

6 in March or thereabouts of 2001. Are you aware, sir, since it's public

7 knowledge, that the indictment against Dr. Stakic was always, throughout

8 the period including that that they arrested the late Dr. Milan Kovacevic,

9 confidential, sealed and not disclosed to the public, that no one knew

10 that there was an indictment against Dr. Stakic? Are you aware of that?

11 A. No, I wasn't.

12 Q. I will just change the topic if you will for a second. The

13 Honourable Judge Vassylenko asked you a question. I just want to be clear

14 on it, and if permitted by the Court, to ask a follow-up question,

15 relating specifically to page 73, and the Court's reference to page 49, if

16 I may.

17 Sir, you were asked a question on when you saw Dr. Stakic in the

18 restaurant in July of 1992 and you described him as being, as the records

19 reflects by the Court, as being happy, joyful, and smiling. Am I correct

20 to understand, sir, that Dr. Stakic was happy, joyful, and smiling as to

21 the general situation in the Prijedor Municipality, or was he happy,

22 joyful, and smiling once he recognised, approached, and embraced you?

23 A. I too, was happy and joyful and so was he. Because after a long

24 period of time, we met. That was the reason for his joy. I don't know

25 what else was there for him to be particularly joyous about. He was not a

Page 9793

1 drunkard. He never smoked. He was really very happy and joyous for

2 precisely that reason, because he met me. He shouted out with joy,

3 "here's my old teacher."

4 MR. OSTOJIC: [Previous interpretation continues]... Your Honour.

5 MR. KOUMJIAN: I'll try to make it just one question.

6 Further cross-examination by Mr. Koumjian:

7 Q. Sir, forgive me if I'm not looking you in the eye. But it's okay,

8 it's just for one question. Sir, you indicated that you had no knowledge

9 about what was going on or even that these camps existed in Omarska in

10 1992. The Omarska, the Keraterm camps, and this Trnopolje camp. And you

11 told us yesterday that you consider yourself a Yugoslav, that it was a

12 beautiful country. And I presume that there were many people like you,

13 including your Serb neighbours, who felt no discrimination against other

14 ethnicities and would never have supported a government if they had known

15 that they were putting thousands of people, your fellow citizens, from

16 Prijedor in camps where they were tortured and many killed. Would you

17 agree that the good people of Prijedor, including the Serb population,

18 would not have tolerated that had they known the truth?

19 A. I fully agree with you.

20 Q. Would you agree that those people that deceived the people of

21 Prijedor about these camps, that they helped perpetuate this persecution

22 of your Muslim and Croat neighbours?

23 A. I really don't know whether this was the case. I take it that

24 this was possible, but personally, I don't know, believe me, please. I

25 don't know the truth. And if I knew the truth, I would tell you. Above

Page 9794

1 all, I love people, no matter who they were. I don't like to see anyone

2 suffering because no man is born to suffer. We're all born to live our

3 lives because we only have one life. There's no spare life to use. And

4 that is why all those who are suffering -- that is why all those who are

5 subjecting to other people to suffering must be persecuted.

6 MR. KOUMJIAN: Thank you, Your Honour.

7 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: I can see no other questions. The last issue to

8 be resolved is the question of the visit. Apparently, it was your wish to

9 see and meet Dr. Stakic. Before we can rule on this, please be advised

10 that we learned from both Detention Unit and security here that it is in

11 the interests of security preferable to have a visit in the

12 Detention Unit. Two prerequisites, we would need the consent of

13 Dr. Stakic that he wants to receive the visit.

14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours. I fully

15 agree to receive this visit.

16 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Thank you. May I ask you, do you as well agree

17 and want to visit Dr. Stakic in the United Nations Detention Unit?

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honours, I would like to.

19 [Trial Chamber deliberates]

20 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: After conferring, the Trial Chamber decides, and

21 having heard no objections by the side -- from the side of the

22 Prosecution, that we give our consent to a visit in the Detention Unit.

23 All the other prerequisites have to be decided by the responsible persons

24 in the Detention Unit and within the framework of OLAD.

25 So the formal prerequisites from our point of view and from our

Page 9795

1 side are met.

2 It remains for me to thank you, not only for coming, but also for

3 testifying here. And I hope that it will be possible for you to bring the

4 message to your neighbours and to the younger ones in Prijedor that it is

5 the mandate of this Tribunal to find the truth. There is not one truth;

6 we are aware of this. We have to come as close as possible to this, and

7 we try our very best. And therefore, also others should be encouraged to

8 do the same as you did, to come here and to testify, whatever their

9 religion or ethnicity may be. And it would be extremely helpful if that

10 what is brought as a message to Prijedor is not only the one side of the

11 coin, but also to try to get access to that what is told to us by numerous

12 witnesses, leaving for a moment aside the personal responsibility of the

13 one or other person. But there can be no reasonable doubt at all that

14 these killings, torture, persecution, crimes against humanity happened in

15 your town, in your municipality. And I hope that this will be also

16 included in the lessons in the schools your younger colleagues, and I hope

17 this will be also your message when coming home to Prijedor. And we wish

18 you a safe return. You're excused for the day.

19 This concludes today's hearing. The trial stays adjourned until

20 tomorrow, 9.00, in the same courtroom.

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

22 [The witness withdrew]

23 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned

24 at 1.51 p.m., to be reconvened on Friday,

25 the 13th day of December, 2002,

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