International Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 10976

1 Thursday, 23 January 2003

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 [The witness entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 9.03 a.m.

6 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Please be seated. A very good morning to

7 everybody. May we hear the case number.

8 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning. This is case number IT-97-24-T, the

9 Prosecutor versus Milomir Stakic.

10 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Thank you. And the appearances. For the

11 Prosecution.

12 MR. KOUMJIAN: Good morning. Nicholas Koumjian, Ann Sutherland,

13 with Ruth Karper for the Prosecution.

14 MR. LUKIC: Good morning, Your Honours. Branko Lukic, John

15 Ostojic, and Danilo Cirkovic for the Defence.

16 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Thank you. Then we have Mr. Pusac as our

17 witness today. I hope you had a nice evening in The Hague yesterday, and

18 time to think about what we discussed yesterday.

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

20 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: And let me go --

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Of course.

22 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: -- in medias res, in the -- following the last

23 question of yesterday.

24 WITNESS: MOMIR PUSAC [Resumed]

25 [Witness answered through interpreter]

Page 10977

1 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: And may please the witness be shown once again

2 from S180, item 97. This is in the English version, page 69. And at the

3 same time, D50B. This is the sketch drawn by the witness.

4 Questioned by the Court: [Continued]

5 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Dr. Pusac, yesterday I asked you for some

6 assistance for a better understanding of this conclusion of 29 May 1992.

7 What does it mean? "Because of the formation of the army of the

8 Serbian Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina, the need for the Serbian

9 Territorial Defence has ceased." Why this?

10 A. I'm not an expert who could give you response on the meaning, on

11 the legal meaning of this conclusion, but in the army - that is, in my

12 command as a soldier, as a medical officer and a doctor - I don't remember

13 ever having received an order regarding this issue or an explanation as to

14 why the Territorial Defence has ceased to exist and what is the meaning of

15 that. That is why now and here, relying on my medical knowledge, my

16 professional knowledge, I cannot answer your question because I simply

17 don't know.

18 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: May we then turn to the second sentence of this

19 conclusion that is even closer to your own sketch. "The Serbian

20 Territorial Defence shall be incorporated into the structure of the region

21 and placed under its command."

22 So as I asked you already yesterday, where in your own sketch,

23 Exhibit D50B, would you allocate now the Serbian Territorial Defence?

24 A. During the war, the Serbian Territorial Defence did not exist, as

25 far as I know. And I, as a doctor, did not have any contacts with the

Page 10978

1 bodies of the Territorial Defence. So I can't tell you precisely which

2 box would contain the Territorial Defence.

3 If you will allow me, Your Honour, I would like to once again

4 clarify this position of mine. So if you want me to do that, I will

5 gladly do that.

6 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: I think we all did understand this, but maybe

7 from a more practical point of view, have you ever been involved in

8 assistance - medical care, medical assistance - given to members of the

9 Serbian Territorial Defence, be it before the war or during the war?

10 A. Before the war, during the peacetimes, I've already told you that

11 the Territorial Defence was a well-known term and a well-known

12 institution. When we had military drills, I did have an opportunity to

13 treat people, but I don't remember having registered them as members of

14 the Territorial Defence. All these people were just patients for me.

15 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Right. That's the spirit a physician should

16 work in no doubt. But what about wartime, during wartime? Has anything

17 changed?

18 A. During the war, I was a physician, and I was surrounded by the

19 wounded, by the sick, by the civilian casualties or participants in the

20 war, but I don't remember -- I can't remember anybody wearing the insignia

21 of the Territorial Defence with whom I would have personal contact.

22 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: And this insignia would be?

23 A. I don't even know what insignia would it be, because as far as I

24 know, even before the war there were no particular insignia on their

25 uniforms or some other form of recognition of members of the Territorial

Page 10979

1 Defence. At least, I didn't know of any.

2 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: So is it your testimony that you made no

3 distinction related to your patients, and you weren't aware at all whether

4 your patient was now a member of the regular army or the Territorial

5 Defence?

6 A. Whoever came to me and was wounded or sick was given assistance

7 regardless of whether he was a fighter or a civilian, whether he was a

8 Muslim or a Serb. They were all treated equally.

9 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Were there also Muslims in the Serbian

10 Territorial Defence?

11 A. I don't know of this institution, of that category. So I'm not in

12 a position to answer this question.

13 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: For the moment, I myself don't have any further

14 questions. Judge Vassylenko, please.

15 JUDGE VASSYLENKO: I have several questions. Mr. Pusac, was the

16 Minister of Defence in the former Yugoslavia a member of the Yugoslavian

17 government?

18 A. I think he was.

19 JUDGE VASSYLENKO: Was the Minister of Defence bound by the

20 decisions adopted by the highest political leadership of the country?

21 A. I don't know. I did not engage in politics. I could partly

22 answer your question as regards the military chain of command. So the

23 Supreme Command and the subordinate parts, that is what I know. But as

24 for the politics, I never engaged in any politics, and that's why I can't

25 answer your question.

Page 10980

1 JUDGE VASSYLENKO: Who decided on the formation of the armed

2 forces of Republika Srpska in Bosnia-Herzegovina, Radovan Karadzic and his

3 political aides or General Mladic?

4 A. I really can't answer this question with any degree of precision.

5 JUDGE VASSYLENKO: Now I have some questions related to the

6 Exhibit S346 containing the order of General Talic on general

7 mobilisation.

8 Doctor, may I ask you to read out paragraph 8 of this document.

9 It's page 3 of the B/C/S version. The first line of this paragraph and

10 then subparagraph 4.

11 A. Number 8 is on page 2 in my version.

12 JUDGE VASSYLENKO: Page 2, yes. Excuse me.

13 A. "Until the units receive concrete combat tasks, engage them in the

14 following tasks: Maintain and improve the operational and tactical

15 positions of own units, increase the military and combat compactness of

16 wartime units, conduct intensive combat training, focusing on firing and

17 tactical training, and establish the closest possible cooperation with the

18 people and legal authorities within their zones of responsibility."

19 JUDGE VASSYLENKO: Okay. Thank you very much. Now I would like

20 to ask the Defence team and the interpreters to help me to translate the

21 words "legalnim organima."

22 THE INTERPRETER: "Legal bodies."

23 JUDGE VASSYLENKO: "Legal," not "legitimate"?

24 MR. OSTOJIC: May the Court please repeat the word? We don't have

25 it in front of us in B/C/S.

Page 10981

1 JUDGE VASSYLENKO: In the B/C/S version, in subparagraph 4, we

2 have the expression "legalnim organima."

3 MR. LUKIC: I think it can mean both "legitimate" and "legal." I

4 would --

5 JUDGE VASSYLENKO: It's sooner"legitimate."

6 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters agree with Counsel Lukic.

7 JUDGE VASSYLENKO: In legitimate and legal.

8 Now, Mr. Pusac, on the first page of the document, it is said that

9 general work duty has been introduced. Can you explain us what is

10 "general work duty"?

11 A. I'm not an expert, but as a layperson, based on what was

12 happening, I can give you my assessment as to what that may have been.

13 It's a form of obligation according to which the employees would turn to

14 work and maybe stay longer because of the needs imposed by the war. And

15 in that sense, they had a higher degree of obligation than during the time

16 of peace, but I'm not an expert, and I cannot give you a precise

17 definition of that.

18 JUDGE VASSYLENKO: Was the work duty introduced as in relation to

19 your position, to yourself?

20 A. I was in the medical battalion, and obviously, as far as I can

21 remember, there was this duty imposed on the majority of institutions, and

22 I believe that this was also the case in health care institutions.

23 JUDGE VASSYLENKO: In this document, in the order signed by

24 General Talic is the reference to the mobilisation of the SZ, Civilian

25 Protection. On the first page, in the preamble of the document.

Page 10982

1 A. Yes. I understood it in the following way: The civilian

2 population is being mobilised. Mobilisation is under way. The Civilian

3 Protection is being mobilised.

4 JUDGE VASSYLENKO: And can you explain me what is the difference

5 between Civilian Protection and Territorial Defence?

6 A. As far as I can remember, the Civilian Protection are peacetime

7 units intended primarily to act in a natural disaster, such as

8 earthquakes, floods of greater proportions. That is when they are engaged

9 to help.

10 JUDGE VASSYLENKO: Then why the mobilisation of Civilian

11 Protection was announced and was under way at that period of time?

12 A. Probably the Presidency of Republika Srpska, the Republic of

13 Bosnia and Herzegovina came to the conclusion that the Civilian Protection

14 had to be mobilised. I don't know. My command was not in charge of

15 making these decisions.

16 JUDGE VASSYLENKO: Well, I have no more questions.

17 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Thank you. Judge Argibay, please.

18 JUDGE ARGIBAY: Thank you. Good morning, Doctor. I would like to

19 ask you if you knew at the time of the takeover of power that occurred in

20 Prijedor on April 30th, 1992.

21 A. I only heard that there had been a shake-up or a change among the

22 elected and appointed officials. I heard that a different political

23 option or party had arrived. But I was in the army in Banja Luka, and I

24 really didn't have much information that would give me more insight into

25 that event, which was the takeover of power in Prijedor.

Page 10983

1 JUDGE ARGIBAY: Would you say that the military was involved in

2 that takeover?

3 A. I don't have such information, nor did anybody in my command

4 inform me about that or order me to participate or to learn more details

5 on that issue.

6 JUDGE ARGIBAY: Would you think it likely that the military were

7 involved with that takeover?

8 A. No, I don't, because this was a political issue. Otherwise, it

9 would have been a local military coup. What I'm trying to say is that the

10 army was not a municipal or a regional institution. It belonged to the

11 entire republic. So neither a municipal body or a regional body could

12 command the army.

13 JUDGE ARGIBAY: Thank you. This is another question: Have you

14 heard about the camp collection centres or investigation centres that were

15 in Prijedor in 1992, between May and, say, August, September, something

16 like that?

17 A. Yes. I heard that information, but since I was in Banja Luka in

18 the command only at the beginning of these events and then I was absent

19 for a few months due to my illness, I had to spend some time in Belgrade,

20 so I don't have any details on these. I don't have any information to be

21 able to tell you more. The only thing I could tell you is what I heard

22 from the -- from the media or what I heard from my parents once I returned

23 from Belgrade.

24 JUDGE ARGIBAY: So you're not aware that the military had anything

25 to do with those camps?

Page 10984

1 A. No, I don't have that information. I have never seen a document

2 which would corroborate the fact that the army did this or that. I simply

3 don't have such information or such material evidence.

4 JUDGE ARGIBAY: Due to the -- this schedule you made yourself, the

5 document that's now D50B - you have it, I think, there - is it not the

6 president of the republic, I don't know with the consent of the parliament

7 or not, that's another problem, but the president of the republic, the one

8 who is in charge of declaring war or signing peace treaties?

9 A. It is possible, but I don't know that for a fact.

10 JUDGE ARGIBAY: Who do you suppose declares war and mobilises the

11 army?

12 A. I suppose, based on my knowledge, that it will be the Supreme

13 Commander or the president of the state, or maybe it is the parliament. I

14 do not have so much political knowledge to be able to give you the exact

15 information.

16 JUDGE ARGIBAY: So the Supreme Commander, that's the president of

17 the state; correct?

18 A. Yes.

19 JUDGE ARGIBAY: Thank you. No more questions.

20 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: I have no doubt that the Defence has another

21 line of questions. Please.

22 MR. LUKIC: Yes, Your Honour. We have quite a few questions

23 emanating from yours and questions from my learned friends.

24 Re-examined by Mr. Lukic:

25 Q. [Interpretation] Again, good morning, Dr. Pusac. I told you that

Page 10985

1 your testimony shouldn't take long, but it seems I wasn't right in saying

2 that. The reason is that all of us here are trying to use you as an

3 expert on constitutional law. So in keeping with that line of

4 questioning, you will have to muster additional strength and answer a

5 couple of questions of mine, mostly in connection with constitutional law,

6 if you can answer them. If not, you are free to say that you can't answer

7 because you don't know the answer.

8 I have handed in a list of documents to the registry, and I would

9 kindly ask for the usher to receive the set. Let's start with the

10 document D3. [In English] It's a statute.

11 [Interpretation] Doctor, would you please take the statute. This

12 is just a working copy. We don't have a better version. This is the

13 statute of Prijedor municipality. Can you open it on page 12. It is in

14 B/C/S. Take it in your hands, please. Page 12. Do you see Article 35?

15 A. I apologise. I have an English copy.

16 Q. We should go through the document step-by-step, but this is just

17 by way of introduction. Page 12, Article 35.

18 Would you please read the first paragraph of Article 35, speaking

19 of the types of decisions which may be passed by Municipal Assembly.

20 A. "In performing the task within its field of action, the Municipal

21 Assembly and its organs shall make decisions, issue orders and

22 instructions and adopt solutions, conclusions, resolutions and

23 recommendations. The general enactments of the Assembly shall be

24 published in the Official Gazette of the municipality."

25 Q. Thank you. So among the documents that can be issued by the

Page 10986

1 Municipal Assembly and in Prijedor municipality after the 22nd of May,

2 this has been replaced by the Crisis Staff. One of the documents is also

3 an order. I believe that this may have confused you when the Judges asked

4 you about the orders issued by the people representing the Crisis Staff.

5 And you, as a soldier, were probably thinking only about those orders

6 which belonged to the army, which are an integral part of the army.

7 Can you see from this article that an order can also be a

8 political enactment if it was issued by the Municipal Assembly of Prijedor

9 municipality or its bodies?

10 A. I never contested or talked about whether a Municipal Assembly can

11 issue an order, but as a soldier, as a medical officer, as a doctor, I am

12 used to military orders from the superior command, to reports from the

13 subordinate command units, and according to the military regulations and

14 the law on army and other military documents and based on what I adopted

15 throughout my profession and education, I do not know any military

16 documents or regulations that would say that anybody could issue orders to

17 the army. And if, throughout the war, what I saw here, what I had read

18 here had happened, to my mind these are just collateral events which were

19 initiated by the Crisis Staffs, municipal organs, and reactions to that

20 and what I could conclude based on the documents presented to me before

21 this honourable Tribunal.

22 So the reactions came from the assistance for moral education, and

23 the reactions were what they were. So this is my line of thinking.

24 Q. This is exactly what you said yesterday, but once again, let me

25 ask you: Would there have been any consequences involving a member of the

Page 10987

1 army if they had not followed such an order? In other words, would a

2 military prosecutor have initiated proceedings against somebody who did

3 not act in keeping with this political enactment called an order?

4 A. As far as I know, nobody in the military command, none of its

5 members, could suffer any consequences. And if they had suffered

6 consequences, they would have been protected before the military court or

7 by the military prosecution.

8 Q. Thank you very much, Doctor. For the time being, let's put this

9 document aside. We will need it later on.

10 And now I would kindly ask the usher to show you the document

11 number S346.

12 First of all, the first sentence of the text, can you see who

13 ordered the mobilisation? Was it ordered by a municipal organ or by a

14 different organ?

15 A. Yes. Pursuant to the Presidency of the Serbian Republic of Bosnia

16 and Herzegovina, the general mobilisation began.

17 Q. You were asked today, based on this same document, about the work

18 obligation, the general work obligation. As an active military officer,

19 you were a member of the army and, as such, you were not on any sort of

20 work obligation.

21 A. No.

22 Q. Even if you were, in fact, working as a doctor?

23 A. That's correct.

24 Q. Thank you. Just under the words "I hereby order" in the text,

25 under number 1. We spoke about this yesterday, and we read the first

Page 10988

1 article, which reads: "Immediately establish direct contact with

2 municipal and military and territorial organs on the ground, offering

3 expert and materiel support for the mobilisation process."

4 The mobilisation process, does the Municipal Assembly take any

5 part in this mobilisation process at all or is the Secretariat for

6 National Defence totally in charge of that, which I mean is a department

7 of the Ministry of Defence.

8 A. The Secretariat for National Defence department.

9 Q. A municipal body?

10 A. The secretariat is part of the defence -- the Defence Ministry.

11 Q. And that's a vertical line from the republic level down to the

12 municipal level; isn't that right?

13 A. Yes, that's correct.

14 Q. We spoke yesterday about Article 8 in this document, page 2. Item

15 4 reads -- I will do as Judge Vassylenko asked of you; I'll just read the

16 first sentence out. Paragraph 8, and then item 4: "Until the units

17 receive concrete combat tasks, engage them in the following tasks..." And

18 then item 4: "Establish the closest possible cooperation with the people

19 and legal authorities within their zones of responsibility."

20 Does this specify what cooperation exactly is meant or is this

21 just a very general piece of phrasing?

22 A. It is impossible to live in a specific environment and not be

23 surrounded by people who are part of that environment. I'm sitting here

24 now. I'm looking at all of you here in the courtroom, and I communicate

25 with you. So the military command must -- must speak up when it comes to

Page 10989

1 a certain environment and must start communicating with its environment.

2 So that's, I think, what is meant by this particular aspect of

3 cooperation. But I was not under the impression that cooperation here

4 meant deciding or making military decisions.

5 Q. Can you tell from this whether any kind of subordination or

6 hierarchy was established, or was there an absence of subordination in

7 this particular case?

8 A. The term "subordination" is only familiar to me from the military

9 environment. Outside the military, I'm not familiar with such forms of

10 organisation or behaviour that could be called subordination.

11 Q. However, the next article, Article 9, and I'll read through

12 Articles 10 and 11 too, these articles do refer to subordination, the

13 concept of subordination. So I would just like to ask you whether this

14 refers to military subordination of military units only.

15 Item 9: "Strict military discipline, subordination, soldierly

16 conduct, and constant vigilance and safety should be introduced from the

17 very beginning in all units and commands."

18 A. Absolutely. This is in the military sense, and this only applies

19 to soldiers, to their commands, to the superiors or subordinates of a

20 certain command, down to the common foot soldier.

21 Q. In -- as far as provisions are concerned, Article 10 reads:

22 "Provision wartime units following the standard procedure and strictly

23 prohibit any looting or other criminal acts on the ground."

24 Therefore, even supplies were done according to an established

25 scheme.

Page 10990

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Does this refer to your military scheme of supply?

3 A. We had our own logistics base for military units, and every unit

4 would express its needs. There'd be -- an assessment of their needs would

5 be drawn up and it would be sent back to the base, and then the base would

6 send whatever the units had requested.

7 Q. Article 11: "Do not allow the presence of any paramilitary

8 formations or other special organisations within the zones of

9 responsibility. Disperse individual members among various units as

10 volunteers, but if they refuse that, break them up, and if necessary,

11 destroy them."

12 Does this show that the army wants armed force only within their

13 own units and that the army does not want to cooperate with some civilians

14 who just happen to be walking about armed?

15 A. In the army, you have no such concept as paramilitary units.

16 Paramilitary units are considered an enemy unit, an enemy formation.

17 They're not part of the military.

18 Q. Item 12 on page 3 reads: "Constantly monitor the progress of

19 mobilisation and include the number of conscripts who have arrived and

20 manning levels in percentages of wartime units at the battalion, regiment,

21 and brigade level as a separate item in the regular combat report for the

22 corps command."

23 Do you see any reference here to the mobilisation and the course

24 of mobilisation being reported to the Municipal Assembly or any of its

25 bodies?

Page 10991

1 A. This article here and what exactly is ordered in it, that's what

2 had to be respected, that's what had to be complied with, and that's how

3 you had to act.

4 Q. Thank you very much, Doctor.

5 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] We will not be needing this document

6 for the time being. May the usher now please show you document number

7 S250.

8 Q. Could you please turn to page 6, document group number 9, item 2.

9 You were asked yesterday about item 2, about conclusion number

10 02-111-171/92, assigning the duty of providing security for the Trnopolje

11 camp to the regional command.

12 Again, it is because of your military experience that we are using

13 you here as an expert on constitutional law. However, to the best your

14 knowledge, is this a political decision or can it also have the form of a

15 military order if what is referred to herein is a military formation

16 described as regional command?

17 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, this witness has said time and time

18 again that he's a medical doctor. He's not a lawyer and he's not a

19 constitutional law expert.

20 MR. LUKIC: You asked him the same questions, so I would follow.

21 I'm following the questions of the Prosecution exactly.

22 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: What we are doing at the moment is the

23 following: You had the examination-in-chief. You brought us to the

24 entire hierarchy down from the president of the republic to troops. And

25 during the cross-examination, you were confronted with some documents from

Page 10992

1 the perspective of the Prosecution tending to challenge that what has been

2 said in the morning on the basis of concrete documents and based on

3 documents in part - for example, the last one - addressed to the witness

4 before us. Therefore, you can't say the witness is in a certain way

5 abused as a lawyer or an expert in constitutional law. No. He was asked

6 questions on the mere basis that he was a member of the military, no doubt

7 in the area of health care and, therefore, it's a special situation, but I

8 don't think that anybody has asked, besides the question whether or not

9 the president was the one declaring war, that there were any other really

10 legal questions. And therefore, already before I wanted to ask you to

11 refrain as some months ago, when we started the same experiment, to

12 refrain from asking questions the witness apparently can't answer.

13 If it's limited to his own knowledge or based on his own career in

14 the military, then the question is admissible, but not these questions in

15 general. Thank you.

16 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour. I'll try to restrain to those

17 questions.

18 Q. [Interpretation] Dr. Pusac, I will try to ask a more specific

19 question now. If you had received a conclusion of the Crisis Staff of the

20 Prijedor municipality or the Banja Luka municipality, would you have

21 treated that as an order on which you had to act?

22 A. Absolutely not, but I would have told my superior about it, that's

23 for sure.

24 Q. Page 8 of this document group number 13, you were asked yesterday

25 about the order pursuant to which the Intervention Platoon was

Page 10993

1 established. That's page 92, line 9, of yesterday's transcript.

2 Do you have any information as to whether this Intervention

3 Platoon or intervention squad was actually ever established?

4 A. No, I don't have any information to that effect.

5 Q. Thank you. So much for this particular document. The next

6 document.

7 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] May the usher please show the witness

8 document S79.

9 Q. This is actually about the same Intervention Platoon, but as you

10 seem to never have heard about this Intervention Platoon being set up at

11 all, then I will refrain from asking you questions about this.

12 The next document is D3, the statute of Prijedor municipality. On

13 page 3, top of the page, Roman III, you see the rights and duties of the

14 municipality. Article 7 reads: "In conformity with the constitution, the

15 law and this statute, the municipality shall..." and if you would please

16 turn the page.

17 The next page, number 4, under item 5. Item 5 reads as follows:

18 "Take appropriate measures for the protection of people and property,

19 uphold law and order."

20 Item 6: "Regulate and organise national defence, facilitate the

21 realisation of the rights and duties of citizens in connection with the

22 defence of the country, manage Territorial Defence and civil protection."

23 I would just like to ask you the following -- excuse me. We'll

24 leave this for later when we're dealing with S180, in order not to get

25 things mixed up right now and to shift from one subject to another. So if

Page 10994

1 the usher would please excuse me and show the witness document number

2 S391.

3 This document is referred to in the transcript on page 71, line 6.

4 These are political conclusions from a subregional meeting of the

5 municipalities of Bihac, Bosanski Petrovac, Srpska Krupa, Sanski Most,

6 Prijedor, Bosanski Novi, and Kljuc. The Prosecution has tried to use this

7 document, or more specifically item 4 of this document, to demonstrate

8 that political organisations had the actual influence on the army.

9 Item 1 of this document, on page 1, reads: "It is necessary to

10 declare a state of war in the Serbian Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina,"

11 and this is requested on the 7th of June, 1992.

12 Doctor, please tell us if you know whether a state of war was

13 declared and when exactly.

14 A. As far as I know, it was only towards the end of the war, in 1995,

15 but certainly not before that time.

16 Q. Therefore, the army did not follow the instructions received from

17 this political meeting, and the army did not declare a state of war in

18 June 1992; is that correct?

19 A. Yes, that's correct.

20 Q. Thank you. I would just like to refer you now to the following:

21 On page 2 of the same document, bottom of the page, next to the stamp.

22 Can you see a signature or a name?

23 A. No, I can't.

24 Q. Thank you. May the usher please show you document number S59.

25 This is an excerpt from instructions for the work of the municipal Crisis

Page 10995

1 Staff of the Serbian people. Can you please read out loud item 4.

2 A. "The command of the TO and police forces is under the exclusive

3 authority of the professional staff. Therefore, any interference

4 regarding the command of the TO and/or the use of the police forces must

5 be prevented."

6 Q. This document never refers to commanding the army.

7 A. No, it doesn't.

8 Q. Do you think it's because the army is more difficult or easier to

9 command than the police forces and the TO? Is there a possibility that

10 civilian bodies of government, civilian authorities, interfered with the

11 army and its commands? I'm talking about the municipal level now, because

12 this document refers to Crisis Staffs at municipal level.

13 A. Only professional persons, military professionals, can issue

14 commands to the army, which means that the civilian authorities never had

15 such people working there. They didn't have qualified military personnel.

16 Q. Thank you, Doctor. The next document I would like to show you is

17 S4 -- 141. We'll use this document in connection with document S180. So

18 if the usher could please place the Official Gazette of Prijedor

19 municipality in front of you, the number is dated 25th of June, 1992.

20 2/92.

21 I would like to follow the line of questioning by the Honourable

22 Judge Schomburg, the same one he applied when referring to this document

23 and asking you questions about it. So could you please now turn to page

24 76. The pages have the same numbers in both versions of the text, the

25 original and the English translation. So please turn to page 76. Item

Page 10996

1 115.

2 In the transcript, reference is being made to this document on

3 page 87, from line 19 onwards.

4 In your opinion --

5 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Please wait one minute until we have the

6 document before us. It's not yet on the ELMO.

7 MR. LUKIC: Page 76 in English.

8 MS. SUTHERLAND: I think the English translation goes up to page

9 62.

10 MR. LUKIC: It's Exhibit number S180, and it has the same

11 pagination as the B/C/S version. So page 76, item 115.

12 Q. [Interpretation] By this conclusion, the Crisis Staff suggests to

13 the Prijedor regional command that it agree and rule on unified insignia

14 for the army of Republika Srpska. I will remind you of the fact that the

15 Assembly can pass decisions, orders, conclusions, resolutions, and

16 recommendations. Is this an enactment that was passed by the Municipal

17 Assembly or the Crisis Staff, the body that replaced it? Is that an order

18 or is this a political enactment?

19 A. This is a recommendation, and it is a result of a political

20 enactment, the political will and desire of this particular institution.

21 Q. Was there any military institution that had to obey this

22 conclusion and act on it, according to your best knowledge?

23 A. There was no single command that could act without the approval of

24 its superior command, and this, if this was to be an order to the

25 military, this should have been passed by the Supreme Commander.

Page 10997

1 Q. Now I would like you to go to page 35, which is page 2 of this

2 document. Can you please look at Article 6. And the reference to that is

3 made in transcript on page 89, from line 7 onwards.

4 We have seen that the statute of Prijedor municipality, in its

5 chapter number 3 on the rights and obligations of the municipality, in its

6 Article 7 it prescribes that, in accordance with the statute law and this

7 statute, the municipality, under item 6, it reads: "That the municipality

8 will be in charge of organising the Territorial Defence, and it will

9 secure the exercise of rights and duties of all citizens in connection

10 with the defence of the state."

11 In this Article 6, is there anything that is not in agreement with

12 Article 7, item 6 of the statute of Prijedor municipality? In Article 6,

13 therefore, are there just some more details provided as to the prescribed

14 rights of the municipality to secure the exercise of the rights and

15 obligations of citizens in connection with the defence of the state?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Can you see anywhere in Article 6 that the Crisis Staff has the

18 right to issue orders to the army? Can you please read Article 6 and tell

19 us, please, whether you see anywhere that the Crisis Staff is in the

20 position to issue any orders to the military.

21 A. I apologise. Are you talking about page 35 of the Official

22 Gazette, Article 6? "In the exercise of its function within the area of

23 defence activities, the Crisis Staff shall, in particular, coordinate the

24 work and activities of all components of All People's Defence, consider

25 issues of mobilisation, development and reinforcement of the armed forces

Page 10998

1 and other organisations, and foster their cooperation with other

2 responsible municipal organs. On special request of the commander of the

3 municipal Territorial Defence staff, deal with issues of supply

4 requirements and funding sources for the Territorial Defence, keep abreast

5 of all aspects of the situation in the municipality essential for the

6 waging of armed combat and take appropriate measures, monitor the

7 implementation of the recruitment planned and, where necessary, take

8 measures for successful implementation thereof."

9 Q. In this Article 6, do you see anywhere the command role of the

10 Crisis Staff with regard to the army?

11 A. Yesterday and again today, I persist in saying that the command of

12 the army could not be and it wasn't regulated by the law on the army and

13 other regulations regulating the army.

14 Q. Let's now stay on the same page, but let's move to Article 9,

15 which is referred to in transcript on page 90, line 1 and onwards.

16 Article 9 reads: "The Crisis Staff shall at all times cooperate with the

17 army of the Serbian Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina, Civil Defence, and

18 public security through the senior officers or organs of these

19 institutions. The Crisis Staff shall cooperate with all other business

20 and public organisations in the municipality through the municipal

21 Executive Committee."

22 Can you see also here that this has to do with the exercise of

23 rights and duties of citizens in connection with defence?

24 A. Yes. This transpires from this article.

25 Q. The next thing that was discussed in this document is on page 37,

Page 10999

1 item 20. This was referred to yesterday in the transcript on page 90,

2 line 18.

3 Here, from this order issued by the Municipal Assembly and the

4 Crisis Staff which replaces it - and it has the right to do so based on

5 Article 35 of the statute of the Municipal Assembly - this forbids

6 unauthorised gunfire in the territory of the municipality of Prijedor.

7 Doctor, the statute -- can you please pay attention? The statute,

8 as we have read, of the municipality of Prijedor, in chapter III where it

9 reads about the rights and obligations of the municipality, in Article 7,

10 it reads: "In keeping with the constitution, law, and this statute of the

11 municipality..." under item 5, it says: "Certain measures shall be taken

12 in order to protect the people and their property aligned to. It is

13 provided for public law and order."

14 My question is: Is gunfire, unauthorised gunfire, considered

15 disruption of public law and order?

16 A. Yes, because this obviously -- it puts the people and property in

17 jeopardy.

18 Q. Can we then agree that this order was issued in keeping with the

19 statute of the Municipal Assembly of Prijedor, Article 7, item 5? I have

20 just read that part from the statute of the municipality.

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. According to the statute as I have just read it to you, did the

23 Municipal Assembly and the body that replaces it, the Crisis Staff, has

24 the right to issue orders according to Article 35 of this statute?

25 A. Yes, but when it comes to the military and the military police, I

Page 11000

1 as a soldier, and I believe that they understood this and the command as a

2 form of an explanation as to what they were supposed to do with this

3 regard, because the military police will react in cases when a soldier

4 wearing a uniform will do something that goes against law and order, and

5 the civilian police will react in the cases of civilians being involved.

6 So I do not again think that this has anything to do with the military.

7 Q. Does civilian police have the right to arrest a soldier who is

8 shooting?

9 A. Yes. The civilian police can keep him, register him, and urgently

10 call the military police for the military police to carry out

11 investigation and undertake all the necessary measures against the

12 perpetrator.

13 Q. On page 42, yesterday you were asked about item 30. Again, this

14 is yet another order. Under item 2, which is referred to in the

15 transcript on page 91, line 13 and onwards, this order duty binds the

16 commander of the Prijedor garrison and the public security station to

17 establish the needs to engage materiel and technical equipment and deliver

18 them to the municipal Secretariat for National Defence, so that the

19 hitherto taken materiel and technical equipment may be given legitimacy.

20 That is, the materiel and technical equipment that have been taken by the

21 military and the police.

22 Does --

23 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: One moment, please. Could the usher please

24 place item 30 on the ELMO. 3-0.

25 Thank you. You may continue.

Page 11001

1 MR. LUKIC: Is this a convenient time for the break?

2 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Let's just discuss this item and then the break.

3 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

4 Q. Does this order call upon the military and the police only to give

5 a written document for something that they have already taken away or

6 requisitioned, whatever you want to call that?

7 A. Well, this is the way I understand this order. I don't know of

8 any other way I could understand it.

9 Q. This is exactly what I have understood. And if the Honourable

10 Judges think that this calls for further discussion, they can ask you

11 questions on this later on.

12 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: The trial stays adjourned until 11.00 sharp.

13 --- Recess taken at 10.30 a.m.

14 --- On resuming at 11.04 a.m.

15 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Please be seated. Let's continue with our

16 journey through the Official Gazette of Prijedor.

17 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

18 Q. [Interpretation] On page 51, item 48, you don't know anything

19 about the Intervention Platoon, so I'm not going to ask you anything about

20 it, but immediately move on to page 54, item 55, by which the Crisis Staff

21 issued a decision relieving of his duties the commander of the Serbian

22 Territorial Defence of Prijedor, Major Slobodan Kuruzovic.

23 In connection with this item, I would like to ask the usher to

24 give you document S141, and turn to page 44. In the English version, this

25 is on page 59.

Page 11002

1 Dr. Pusac, can you please read the title of the document on the

2 first page. Can you please put the Official Gazette on the table. We

3 will need the title page and page 44.

4 A. Are you referring to the minutes of the 16th session of the

5 Assembly of the Serbian People held on the 12th of May? The session

6 started --

7 Q. No. I just needed the title. Let's now move to page 44. In the

8 English version, this is on page 59, the last paragraph. In the B/C/S

9 version, it is the beginning of the page.

10 Can you please read the first paragraph on this page in this

11 document.

12 A. "Momcilo Krajisnik: We still have to adopt these amendments. Who

13 is in favour? Who is against? Abstaining? So the amendments to the

14 constitution have been adopted. Proceed, please.

15 "Participant in the discussion: At the session held on 12 May,

16 1992 it adopted the law on the amendments to the National Defence Act,

17 Article 1: In the National Defence Act, Official Gazette number 4/92, in

18 all provisions of the act, the terms 'Territorial Defence' and 'armed

19 forces' shall be replaced by the following words: 'The Serbian Republic

20 of Bosnia-Herzegovina army.'

21 "Article 2, subsection 2 of Article 10 is hereby expunged. It is

22 an article in a subsection which regulated something concerning

23 Territorial Defence. Article 3. Articles 37 to 53 also all have to do

24 with Territorial Defence and are hereby expunged. Article 4. This act

25 shall enter into effect eight days from its publication in the Official

Page 11003

1 Gazette of the Serbian people of Bosnia and Herzegovina."

2 Q. Does it transpire from this that already on the 12th of May, 1992,

3 the Territorial Defence of Republika Srpska ceased to exist?

4 A. Yes. Now I'm clear that this really happened, and I couldn't know

5 that before. Yes.

6 Q. Of course we did not expect you to remember the date. When we go

7 back to the Official Gazette number 2/92, page 54, item 55. I believe you

8 have it open in front of you.

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. What is the date of the decision referred to within this Official

11 Gazette?

12 A. It is 29 May 1992.

13 Q. So 17 days after the Assembly of the Serbian Republic of Bosnia

14 and Herzegovina disbanded or abolished the Territorial Defence of the

15 Serbian Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina.

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Since the statute of the Municipal Assembly of Prijedor in its

18 Article 7, item 6, reads the following: "That the command over the

19 Territorial Defence and Civilian Protection in the municipality," do you

20 believe that the Crisis Staff, which at the time replaced the Municipal

21 Assembly, actually only informed the former commander of Territorial

22 Defence - of the former Territorial Defence - that he is hereby relieved

23 of his duties because the formation whose member he was, that is whose

24 commander he used to be, and which used to be under the command of the

25 municipality, is only informed of the fact that his formation and his

Page 11004

1 position had stopped existing 17 days before that.

2 A. Yes. That formation indeed ceased to exist.

3 Q. Thank you, Doctor. We're approaching the end of our examination.

4 Please bear with me for just a little longer.

5 The honourable President Schomburg asked you about two further

6 documents. One of them is on page 70 of the Official Gazette, Article

7 101, which was discussed on page 94 of yesterday's transcript, line 10 and

8 onwards.

9 In this conclusion, item 2: "The Autonomous Region of Krajina is

10 requested to accelerate the establishment of an AP Autonomous Region of

11 Krajina government as well as to clarify the conclusions of the Crisis

12 Staff concerning the retirement of employees with 30 or 35 years of

13 service."

14 This conclusion, does it show any kind of discrimination with

15 respect to retirees, against the retirees, or does it only refer to people

16 who have simply served for 30 or 35 years, regardless of their ethnic

17 background, which provides legal basis for an individual to retire?

18 A. Yes, that's correct.

19 Q. Do you see any form of discrimination in this document?

20 A. No, I don't.

21 Q. Next document is on page 69. That's the page before this one.

22 Article 97, near the top of the page. This conclusion was discussed

23 during the hearing yesterday, page 95 of the transcript, line 10.

24 If we read through this, its conclusion: "Because of the

25 formation of the army of the Serbian Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina,

Page 11005

1 the need for the Serbian TO has ceased. The Serbian TO shall be

2 incorporated into the structure of the region."

3 This conclusion was also adopted on the 29th of May, 1992, wasn't

4 it?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Does this document show that this conclusion was adopted because

7 on the 20 -- on the 12th of May, 1992, the TO of the Serbian Republic of

8 Bosnia and Herzegovina had ceased to exist?

9 A. Of course.

10 Q. Does this conclusion establish the army of the Republika Srpska?

11 A. No. This conclusion only informs that the army of Republika

12 Srpska has been established.

13 Q. By this conclusion, is the TO of the Bosnian Republic of Bosnia

14 and Herzegovina abolished?

15 A. No. This only informs that the TO had been abolished. That's

16 probably why during the war I was not familiar with that.

17 Q. Thank you very much for your patience, Doctor. I have no further

18 questions.

19 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, thank you.

20 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: I'm sure the Prosecution has some additional

21 questions.

22 MS. SUTHERLAND: Yes, Your Honour. Just three brief matters.

23 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Please.

24 May, in the meantime, it please be taken care that the next

25 witness arrives in due time. Thank you.

Page 11006

1 Further cross-examined by Ms. Sutherland:

2 Q. Dr. Pusac, you mentioned yesterday that you were in Banja Luka

3 during the period April to September 1992 and that you weren't in

4 Prijedor, and you said that the person in your position in Prijedor was

5 Dr. Zeljko Macura; is that correct?

6 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Could you please be so kind as to quote the page

7 number of yesterday's transcript It facilitates the work.

8 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, I do apologise. In the LiveNote

9 that I have in front of me, it's page 84, but I note that there was some

10 text missing at the beginning of when I printed it out, so I think it's

11 around page 84. I apologise for that.

12 Q. Dr. Pusac, you mentioned yesterday that you knew Dr. Zeljko

13 Macura, who was a doctor. You stated that he was chief of the medical

14 corps in the Prijedor garrison.

15 MR. LUKIC: My learned friend said that it's from -- that she

16 forgot it yesterday or -- does it derive from my questions, my last

17 questions or not?

18 MS. SUTHERLAND: This was in relation to questions by the Judge,

19 Judge Schomburg.

20 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: I recall it. That's not the problem. But only

21 to facilitate, to find it later. Thank you.

22 MS. SUTHERLAND:

23 Q. You were asked by Judge Schomburg whom would you regard as your

24 colleague or subordinate on the level of Prijedor responsible for taking

25 care of all the health problems of this garrison command, and you said,

Page 11007

1 your answer: "It was Dr. Macura. I cooperated with him and he was in

2 that unit."

3 A. Yesterday I said that I was permanently placed with my command and

4 my service in Banja Luka. My command and my own service was not in

5 Prijedor, and I never said that during my absence Dr. Macura was standing

6 in for me, as you have just stated. I only said that I know Dr. Macura.

7 He was the head of the medical unit in one of the Prijedor units. And

8 when I was asked whether he had sent me any reports, I said clearly that

9 he wasn't -- he wasn't duty-bound to send reports to me officially. His

10 reports on medical activities were sent to the head of the medical corps,

11 and the head of the medical corps at corps level was Dr. Branko Dikic. If

12 memory serves me right, that's exactly what I stated.

13 Q. That's correct. My question was: You were in Banja Luka. The

14 person that was on your level in Prijedor was Dr. Macura; is that correct?

15 A. That's not correct. Dr. Macura was at a lower level. He was at

16 brigade level and I was in the medical battalion, directly subordinated to

17 the corps command. I was at a higher level.

18 Q. In relation to Dr. Macura, you mentioned that he was -- was he an

19 active-duty officer in 1992? Do you know?

20 A. No, he was not an active-duty officer. He was a reserve duty

21 officer, as far as I know.

22 Q. Do you know whether he held any civilian or political positions in

23 1992?

24 A. I don't know. I really don't know.

25 Q. I would like to know show you a short video clip. Could you tell

Page 11008

1 me whether you recognise anyone in this video.

2 MS. SUTHERLAND: Could the video please be played. And this is

3 Exhibit S7.

4 [Videotape played]

5 MS. SUTHERLAND: Without the sound.

6 [Videotape played]

7 MS. SUTHERLAND:

8 Q. If you recognise anyone, could you please ask for the video to be

9 paused.

10 A. I think this is Dr. Kovacevic, the man in the middle.

11 Q. In the white shirt, with a cigarette in his hand?

12 A. Yes, with a moustache. I knew the man.

13 MS. SUTHERLAND: Please play --

14 [Videotape played]

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] And a cigarette.

16 MS. SUTHERLAND: Pause.

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] And -- no. I'm not positive. This

18 person reminds me of Zeljaja, but I'm not sure.

19 MS. SUTHERLAND:

20 Q. Which person are you pointing to? And the time clock, for the

21 record, is 11.37.01.01.

22 A. The one with the head bowed. Yes, this man with his head down.

23 This man looks like Zeljaja, but I can't be sure. From this angle, I

24 really can't tell for sure.

25 Q. And the man with the head --

Page 11009

1 A. This man here, with his hand over his face, wearing uniform, he

2 looks like him, but I'm not sure from this angle.

3 Q. The person that you said you thought was Zeljaja, you said he had

4 his head bowed. Is that the one towards the back of the still, in

5 uniform?

6 A. Yes. Yes.

7 Q. What colour is his hair?

8 A. The image is flickering, so it's very difficult for me to see.

9 Q. [Previous translation continues]...

10 [Videotape played]

11 MS. SUTHERLAND: Just stop the video, and can you rewind the video

12 a moment. Stop. Can you play the video, please.

13 [Videotape played]

14 MS. SUTHERLAND:

15 Q. Do you recognise anyone else in this video?

16 A. I don't recognise these people wearing uniforms. I don't know any

17 of them. Will you please --

18 Q. Did you recognise Dr. Macura in that videotape?

19 A. I think, now that you've had the tape rewound, I think I did

20 notice him, Dr. Macura.

21 Q. Can you tell us where he's sitting on the table. Ask for the

22 videotape to be paused when you have identified him.

23 A. He's not here. Can you just rewind a little bit, please? Here.

24 I think he's scratching his head or going with his fingers through his

25 hair.

Page 11010

1 Q. And that is --

2 A. This man looks a bit like Macura, but --

3 Q. And that is stopped at 11.37.00.20, and it's the man in the very

4 front of the still, on the left-hand side?

5 A. Yes, yes.

6 Q. Thank you.

7 MS. SUTHERLAND: Could the video be played.

8 [Videotape played]

9 MS. SUTHERLAND: Stop. Could the video just be rewound -- stop.

10 Q. Is that Dr. Macura on --

11 A. Yes, yes. That's him.

12 Q. On the left-hand side?

13 A. Yes.

14 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Sorry, left-hand side, right-hand side from --

15 MS. SUTHERLAND:

16 Q. Looking at the still, is that Dr. Macura? Where is Dr. Macura

17 sitting?

18 A. He is wearing uniform. There are three persons here in this

19 frame, and Dr. Macura is wearing uniform.

20 MS. SUTHERLAND: I'm sorry, Your Honour. I do have a problem with

21 my left and my right.

22 Q. And that frame is at 11.37.07.03?

23 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: For the transcript, it's not contested that we

24 speak about the person at the right-hand side from our point of view, and

25 the only one in uniform here.

Page 11011

1 MS. SUTHERLAND: Thank you. The video can be stopped now.

2 Could the witness be shown Exhibit S180, which is the Prijedor

3 Official Gazette, number 2 of 92.

4 Q. Doctor, could you please turn to page 35 and look at item number

5 19.

6 A. Page 35.

7 Q. Item number 19, which is the decision on the appointments to the

8 Prijedor Municipal Crisis Staff.

9 A. On page 35, I don't have Article 19. I have Article 9.

10 Q. I'm sorry. Can you go to page 36, and it goes over onto page 37.

11 A. Thirty-six. Yes, I can see Article 19 on page 36.

12 Q. And it states there, does it not, that Dr. Macura was appointed to

13 the Prijedor Crisis Staff?

14 A. Excuse me. Which article are we discussing?

15 Q. Article number 19.

16 A. Decision on appointments to Prijedor Municipal Crisis Staff.

17 Q. And look at appointment number 10.

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. And you -- and that's the Dr. Macura that you have referred to in

20 your evidence?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Thank you. I've finished with that document.

23 MR. LUKIC: Excuse me, Your Honour. I would just like the witness

24 to clarify in which capacity Dr. Macura was a member of the Crisis Staff

25 in the municipality of Prijedor. So just read point 10 entirely.

Page 11012

1 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: As we did it previously, could you please be so

2 kind, on the request of the Defence, read out point 10.

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] "Article 19: Pursuant to Article

4 110 of the constitution of the Serbian Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina,

5 the Official Gazette of the Serbian people --"

6 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: It's not necessary, only --

7 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Doctor, excuse my interruption, but

8 the next page, page 37. Could you please turn to page 37, number 10,

9 referring to Dr. Macura. Just read that, please.

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] "Dr. Zeljko Macura, health and

11 social security officer, secretary, at Prijedor municipal Secretariat for

12 Economy and Social Affairs, appointed to the post of member."

13 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Does this appointment -- does this

14 post have anything to do with the army?

15 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Stop, stop, stop. You have the right to come

16 back to this question in a moment. It's for the Prosecution.

17 MS. SUTHERLAND: Thank you, Your Honour.

18 Q. Sir, my question to you was did Dr. Macura hold any political or

19 civilian positions in 1992 and I think you said that you weren't aware and

20 I have taken you to this document which shows that he did hold a civilian

21 or political position in 1992, doesn't it?

22 A. If you have such information, and on the basis of this perhaps you

23 do. I said I didn't myself. Throughout the war, I didn't know whether he

24 was involved in politics or a member of any political body.

25 Q. And at the same time that he was appointed to be a member of the

Page 11013

1 Prijedor Crisis Staff, he was also a reserve officer in the military.

2 Isn't that your testimony today?

3 A. A reserve officer, but whether at the same time, I mean his

4 mobilisation and his involvement in political activities, whether these

5 were actually simultaneous or parallel, I don't know. And secondly, he

6 was not an active-duty officer. He came from civilian life. He was a

7 reserve officer.

8 Q. Thank you. I've finished with that document. I'll move on to

9 another topic.

10 MS. SUTHERLAND: Could the witness be shown Exhibit D51.

11 Q. Doctor, this morning you were shown an exhibit by Mr. Lukic, S391,

12 and you stated that the army didn't follow the instructions received from

13 the political meeting of the subregion of the different municipalities

14 that had a meeting on the 7th of June, 1992. Could you please go to page

15 3 in the document in your language, paragraph 6. And we note that D51 is

16 a document dated the 13th of June, 1992.

17 Does it not say halfway down paragraph 6: "The purging of

18 officers on an ethnic basis remains a topic of discussion because of the

19 danger that it may very soon result in deficiencies in the units, but it

20 is proceeding in the spirit of the order received"?

21 Do you see the sentence that I just read out to you?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And this is -- this is a regular combat report sent from General

24 Talic to the Main Staff, is it not, D51?

25 A. As I said, within the command there is always an officer for

Page 11014

1 morale, and that's the sort of activity that that body was pursuing, and

2 they would discuss requests of this nature which reached the command. But

3 this was forwarded to a higher command level, and then an order would be

4 sent down from the top level, but certainly not from municipal Crisis

5 Staffs.

6 Q. We discussed yesterday Exhibit S391, which was the meeting of the

7 subregions of the municipalities on the 7th of June, and they sent a

8 request to the Crisis Staff of the Autonomous Region Krajina and the

9 Serbian government, requesting them to purge Muslim and Croat officers

10 from the corps.

11 Then we had Exhibit S392, which was dated the 9th of June, 1992,

12 which discussed the Crisis Staff decision of the 8th of June and talked

13 about 67 officers of Muslim and Croat ethnicity being dismissed from the

14 corps. And then we had -- that was signed by Vukelic from the 1st

15 Krajina Corps, asking for assistance. That was a document being sent to

16 the Main Staff, asking for guidance in relation to this specific issue.

17 And then I showed you Exhibit 393, which was the document dated

18 the same day, the 9th of June, signed by Ratko Mladic, saying dismiss all

19 Muslims and Croats, immediately put them on leave.

20 Now, this document here is dated four days after General Mladic's

21 order, and the sentence that I just read to you: "The purging of officers

22 on an ethnic basis remains a topic of discussion because of the danger

23 that it may very soon result in deficiencies in the units, but it is

24 proceeding in the spirit of the order received." And that is the order

25 sent by General Mladic not four days previously.

Page 11015

1 A. Yes. Yes. Yesterday I did comment on that order by General

2 Mladic. And if I may add, I personally know officers of Muslim ethnicity

3 who were probably sent into retirement on the basis of that order. They

4 lived throughout the war in Banja Luka. A neighbour of mine who was a

5 friend of mine who lived in the same building as I did, throughout the

6 war, both his wife and he were Muslims, but he is still there.

7 Now the question is: Was that a crime being committed against

8 him? Was it a crime? I'll leave it up to the Honourable Court to decide.

9 Q. I've finished with that document. The final topic --

10 MS. SUTHERLAND: Could the witness be shown Exhibit S61.

11 Q. Sir, you were taken this morning to Exhibit S346, which was the

12 document dated the 21st of May, 1992, signed by Momir Talic dealing with

13 mobilisation, and you were asked if there was any reference in the

14 document to the mobilisation and the course of mobilisation being reported

15 to the Municipal Assembly or any of its bodies, and you replied that there

16 wasn't.

17 Could I ask you to look at Exhibit S61, which is a decision on the

18 mobilisation on the territory of Prijedor municipality dated the 22nd of

19 May, 1992.

20 A. This is a document, and what should be done, they probably know

21 pursuant to the statute and to the constitution. I'm not familiar with

22 that. And what their duties were, to inform the municipality. But what I

23 said, pursuant to the order by General Talic in which he informs that the

24 Presidency of the republic had proclaimed general mobilisation, and in

25 that sense, that military units should send reports to their superior

Page 11016

1 military commands.

2 Q. And this document S61 states: "Pursuant to the decision of the

3 Serbian Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina on the general public

4 mobilisation of forces and materiel in the Republic, the Crisis Staff of

5 Prijedor municipality, considering the current situation and conditions,

6 at the meeting held on the 22nd of May, 1992, reached a decision on the

7 mobilisation on the territory of Prijedor municipality."

8 My question to you, Doctor, is this: Based on your knowledge of

9 Dr. Stakic, of who Dr. Stakic was, was he the type of person to issue

10 orders without any authority?

11 A. Knowing Dr. Stakic as a person, as a colleague and as a citizen, I

12 believe that he never wanted to -- that he would never have ordered

13 anything that he was not authorised to order, or order anything that he

14 could be held liable for. That's my firm belief, and that's my opinion of

15 Dr. Stakic. Personally, I didn't have any such information, and I didn't

16 have any documents that would point to that. I am not a lawyer, but I

17 told you what I think and what I firmly believe.

18 Q. Thank you. I've finished with that document.

19 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, I have no further questions.

20 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Thank you. I had the impression that the

21 Defence had a question in return.

22 MR. LUKIC: Just a few, Your Honour. Thank you.

23 Further re-examined by Mr. Lukic:

24 Q. [Interpretation] Dr. Pusac, the position held by Dr. Zeljko

25 Macura, and I'm going to read his title, that is, the officer for health

Page 11017

1 care and social protection in the municipal Secretariat for Economy and

2 Social Affairs. So is that position in any way connected with the army?

3 A. Absolutely not. It is a position within the health care, and it

4 is a duty that a doctor can perform.

5 Q. When we say in our midst that somebody is an officer, is that a

6 political function?

7 A. An officer. That is a professional duty for which somebody is

8 paid and receives salary.

9 Q. But this is not considered as a functionary? Somebody who is an

10 officer does not need to have a function?

11 A. On the contrary. It is a job. It is a job title.

12 MR. LUKIC: Regarding the last question that the Prosecution put

13 to the witness, we would like to show this document to the witness. It

14 has here a number, but we don't have an exhibit number nor do we have a

15 translation. Please show it to the witness. It could be put on the ELMO.

16 We don't have a translation.

17 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Could we please --

18 MS. SUTHERLAND: Could the Defence read the ERN number so that we

19 could possibly check the computer.

20 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: 00574584 and 85. I would not be surprised that

21 this is already admitted into evidence. May it be shown to the

22 Prosecution and then put on the ELMO, please.

23 MR. LUKIC: Sorry. It's Exhibit S21.

24 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: I saw it before. Yes.

25 MR. LUKIC: Could the lower part of the document be shown, please.

Page 11018

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12 Blank pages inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts. Pages 11018 to 11022.

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

Page 11023

1 "Decision" and -- we need actually "Decision" part.

2 Q. [Interpretation] Dr. Pusac, at the bottom of this page, we can see

3 the last part of the decision, but firstly we are interested in the body

4 that issued this document, and when was that.

5 A. It is the Serbian Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina, the Ministry

6 of Defence in Sarajevo, date 16 April 1992.

7 Q. And now at the bottom of the page, we can see: "Pursuant to

8 Article 81 of the statute of the Serbian Republic of Bosnia and

9 Herzegovina, and on the proposal of the government, the Presidency of the

10 Serbian Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina hereby issues the following..."

11 and can you please read the rest.

12 A. The lower part you mean? Number 1: "A state of an imminent

13 threat of war is here by declared.

14 "2. It is hereby ordered that general mobilisation of the

15 Territorial Defence should take place in the entire territory of Bosnia

16 and Herzegovina. All military conscripts are duty-bound to make

17 themselves available to the municipal Territorial Defence staffs in the

18 territory of the Serbian Bosnia-Herzegovina."

19 Q. This was at a time when the Territorial Defence still existed?

20 A. Yes, of course.

21 Q. Who ordered the general mobilisation referred to in this document?

22 A. The Presidency of the Serbian Bosnia and Herzegovina. In other

23 words, the Ministry of Defence, that is. The Serbian Republic of Bosnia

24 and Herzegovina, the Ministry of Defence.

25 Q. So the ministry received from the Presidency?

Page 11024

1 A. Yes. This was held on the 15th of April. That was an Assembly of

2 the -- and pursuant to that article, the ministry issued a decision.

3 Q. Is this in keeping with your allegations that nobody at the level

4 of the municipality cannot call for the general public mobilisation?

5 A. Of course. That is obvious. I'm not that familiar with all these

6 matters, but all the military conscripts, I believe, know that.

7 Q. Thank you, Dr. Pusac. I have no further questions to ask you.

8 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Any other questions? I can see no questions.

9 Dr. Pusac, I have to thank you for this mutual cooperation in

10 criminal matters; mutual because apparently it was not only that all the

11 participants put questions to you, but at the same time you were

12 confronted with documents you hadn't seen before, and as you stated

13 previously, it will be for the Trial Chamber to evaluate the probative

14 value of these documents, and your testimony was, no doubt, of assistance

15 in this procedure.

16 Thank you for coming to The Hague, and I wish you a safe trip home

17 to your country and to your home. Thank you.

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

19 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: May I ask the usher to escort the witness out of

20 the courtroom. You're excused for today.

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

22 [The witness withdrew]

23 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Everybody has the right of freedom to move

24 wherever he wants, so --

25 In the meantime, I took the liberty to extend our apologies to the

Page 11025

1 next witness that, once again, she has to wait until half past one. So we

2 can't begin now. But let us take the opportunity. We are seized with the

3 Defence motion for disclosure of exculpatory material, per Rule 68 of 22

4 January 2003. This was as an exception to our Rules, on the request of

5 the OTP that we receive this in writing.

6 May I ask the OTP, do they agree and do they accept this request

7 or do you believe it's necessary that the Trial Chamber explicitly hands

8 down an order?

9 MR. KOUMJIAN: Your Honour, the OTP plans to file a written

10 response. It's another team that's actually handling it. They just

11 received the motion last night, and I haven't discussed in detail their

12 position, but they will respond in writing.

13 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Okay. Then we have to postpone the decision,

14 but please, let's have the answer, if possible, no later than tomorrow,

15 because it might be that the witness involved appears earlier than

16 expected and we have to be prepared, and no doubt the Defence has the

17 right to prepare the testimony of this witness.

18 Any other urgent - emphasise "urgent" - matters to be discussed

19 right now? I can see none.

20 Then it's exactly high noon, and the trial stays adjourned until

21 half past one.

22 --- Luncheon recess taken at 12.00 noon

23

24

25

Page 11026

1 --- On resuming at 1.34 p.m.

2 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Please be seated. I anticipate there is a

3 request by the OTP.

4 MR. KOUMJIAN: Your Honour, in response to the issue raised at the

5 end of the morning's session, I was in contact with the team that's

6 handling the Krajisnik case and formerly the Plavsic and Krajisnik case -

7 I guess still technically that case - and they are requesting to have 14

8 days to respond to the motion, as provided for in the Rules under normal

9 circumstances.

10 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: May I hear the submission by the Defence?

11 MR. OSTOJIC: Your Honour, we have no objection, and we would only

12 like a brief time to reply to the response, if permitted.

13 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Of course. No doubt. The only problem I see is

14 that if it would be in fact exculpatory material, it would be without any

15 time limit that these documents or exhibits have to be disclosed to the

16 Defence immediately, and it's not a question of a motion. Therefore, I

17 would really ask the Prosecution to reconsider this issue. We are not

18 confronted with a request under Rule 127, but it's the Prosecution's

19 obligation to act proprio motu whenever they come across with material

20 that tends to be exculpatory. So therefore, the one -- the motion and the

21 response to the motion doesn't exclude the other obligation.

22 MR. KOUMJIAN: Certainly we agree, but it is our position that

23 this is not Rule 68 material, and that is what the response would address.

24 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Okay. Anything else?

25 MR. OSTOJIC: I'm not sure if I understand. Just for a point of

Page 11027

1 clarification: The OTP, in essence, is saying that there is no Rule 68

2 material in connection with Biljana Plavsic.

3 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: I think we shouldn't have a dispute on this

4 issue at the moment. I only wanted to emphasise that if there is material

5 tending to be exculpatory notwithstanding that no doubt there is a time

6 period of 14 days for answering your motion, there is still this

7 obligation, and later on we will see whether this material is exculpatory

8 or not.

9 I understand it's not only in our case this team working on this

10 is confronted with the same problem.

11 Let's come back to our concrete case. As usual, what about

12 protective measures, please?

13 MR. OSTOJIC: Your Honour, it's my understanding with respect to

14 this witness, number 72, she has sought no protective measures. However,

15 there are a couple of points and topics that we'll be asking, when the

16 time is appropriate during her testimony, that we go into closed session

17 because she's uncomfortable, quite candidly, to identify certain

18 individuals in open session, and it's her view, based on the

19 representations that she shared with me, that she did not get the approval

20 of those individuals to identify them in open court. So she has asked at

21 that point that we go into closed session.

22 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: If I then may only ask you to concentrate the

23 line of questions in closed session to one point in time that we don't

24 have to go in and out of closed session.

25 So there is no impediment to ask the usher to escort the witness

Page 11028

1 into the courtroom, please.

2 [The witness entered court]

3 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Good afternoon. Can you hear me in a language

4 you understand?

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

6 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: May I then ask you to give us your solemn

7 declaration.

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Shall I start?

9 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Please.

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

11 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

12 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Thank you. You may be seated.

13 WITNESS: STOJA RADAKOVIC

14 [Witness answered through interpreter]

15 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Let me repeat directly our apologies that you

16 had to wait for such a long time. It was not foreseeable that another

17 witness would take us such a long period of time.

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No problem.

19 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: But now the time has come, and it's for the

20 Defence to start the examination, please.

21 MR. OSTOJIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

22 Examined by Mr. Ostojic:

23 Q. Good afternoon, ma'am. My name is John Ostojic, and along with

24 Branko Lukic and Danilo Cirkovic, we represent Milomir Stakic.

25 A. Good afternoon.

Page 11029

1 Q. Would you please state your full name for the record.

2 A. My name is Stoja, and my last name is Radakovic.

3 Q. Do you have or do you go by any nickname?

4 A. Yes. I have a nickname. It is Mica, and people tend to use my

5 nickname more than my first name.

6 Q. Can you tell us, ma'am, where do you presently reside?

7 A. I presently reside in Prijedor, in Republika Srpska.

8 Q. And how long have you lived in Prijedor?

9 A. I've lived in Prijedor since 1963.

10 Q. Forgive me for asking; can you please tell us your date of birth.

11 A. My date of birth is 13 July 1946.

12 Q. And forgive me also for asking, ma'am; can you tell us what your

13 marital status is.

14 A. I'm divorced.

15 Q. As it relates, at least in my view, in connection with some

16 testimony you're going to give to us this afternoon, can you tell us how

17 long you've been divorced.

18 A. I've been divorced for 30 years.

19 Q. Do you have any children?

20 A. Yes. I have a child who was four months old when I got divorced.

21 My son is now 30 years old.

22 Q. Thank you. Moving along in my outline, can you share with us your

23 educational background and tell us what is the highest level of education

24 that you have attained.

25 A. After the elementary school, I went to an administrative school in

Page 11030

1 Belgrade, and I became a typist. That's what I completed. And I started

2 working in Prijedor municipality in 1963, and later on, I continued my

3 education, my secondary education, and I ended up being an administrative

4 technician after completing my secondary education.

5 Q. And describe for us, if you can, what are the duties and

6 obligations of an administrative technician.

7 A. I can't describe the duties of an administrative technician but of

8 a technical secretary, yes. A technical secretary is a person, a man or a

9 woman, who usually works as a secretary to a higher official, depending on

10 the position, in a certain organisation or institution.

11 My job was as a technical secretary in the Municipal Assembly, and

12 I served as a secretary to the president of the Assembly and the

13 vice-president of the Assembly.

14 Q. So to speed the time line up a little bit, in 1991 through 1992,

15 you worked as the technical secretary in the Municipal Assembly for both

16 the president and the vice-president; correct?

17 A. Correct. That is correct.

18 Q. And during that time period, did you in fact work with a man by

19 the name of Professor Cehajic?

20 A. Yes. His full name was Muhamed Cehajic.

21 Q. Muhamed Cehajic, at the time that you worked at the Municipal

22 Assembly, what position did he hold?

23 A. Mr. Cehajic was the president of the Municipal Assembly of

24 Prijedor.

25 Q. During that same time period, did you have an opportunity to work

Page 11031

1 with Dr. Milomir Stakic?

2 A. Yes. During that same period of time when Cehajic -- Mr. Cehajic

3 became president, Mr. Stakic became vice-president of the Municipal

4 Assembly.

5 Q. And during that time period up through and including the 30th of

6 April, 1992, you worked for both of them; correct?

7 A. Correct. I worked for both of them.

8 Q. Describe for us, ma'am, if you recall, the relationship between

9 Mr. Cehajic and Dr. Stakic during and including the period in which you

10 worked for both of them.

11 A. The contact, i.e., the relationship, between Mr. Cehajic and

12 Mr. Stakic was very serious and very correct; they cooperated, and that

13 happened very often. My office was between their two offices. They would

14 cross my office to go into each other's office, upon invitation or

15 spontaneously. I didn't notice that they would have any disagreements or

16 similar things between them.

17 Q. During that period of time that you worked --

18 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, Counsel, please.

19 MR. OSTOJIC:

20 Q. During that period of time that you worked for both Mr. Cehajic

21 and Dr. Stakic, did Dr. Stakic exhibit any ill will against Mr. Cehajic?

22 A. No. I never noticed anything like that. I don't know what they

23 talked about when they were in each other's offices, but as far as I could

24 see and observe, their contacts and their communication in my office was

25 always correct, serious. Their relationship was perfect, if one may put

Page 11032

1 it that way.

2 Q. At any time did Dr. Stakic, based on your personal observations

3 and recollections, did he ever tell you that he disliked Mr. Cehajic?

4 A. No. And vice versa. Maybe I am now anticipating your question,

5 but no, he didn't say anything like that. On the contrary, he would say,

6 "I am going with Muhamed," "I have an agreement with Muhamed," and things

7 like that.

8 Q. Just so I can understand your position, could you describe for me

9 your day-to-day duties while you were at the Municipal Assembly during the

10 period of time that you worked for Mr. Cehajic and Dr. Stakic.

11 A. It was a period somewhat different to the periods before,

12 different because options were different. There was a multi-party

13 management or leadership, and that was very much different. Cehajic

14 represented the SDA, and Stakic represented the SDS. So at that time I

15 had somewhat less work because they relied a bit more on their respective

16 parties. But I still discharged the duties of a technical secretary. I

17 received their visitors, I referred them to one of the two of them, I

18 talked to the visitors, and if I had to refer them to somebody else, I

19 would do that and I would explain why I had to do that. I also answered

20 their telephones, I would connect them if they had a call, and that also,

21 obviously, depended on whether they wanted to talk to the person who

22 wanted to talk to them.

23 Q. Would you, ma'am, during that time period, do any actual typing or

24 stenography work for either of the two gentlemen?

25 A. No. I didn't do either. I stopped doing that when I started

Page 11033

1 working in their office. This was not in my job description, so I didn't

2 do that.

3 Q. Let me take you briefly, sticking with the theme of your

4 employment and your job duties, to the period of April 30, 1992 through

5 approximately September 30, 1992. Were your job responsibilities and

6 duties the same as they were prior to April 30th when you worked with

7 Mr. Cehajic and Dr. Stakic?

8 A. Yes, the same. As much as it was requested of me by the visitors

9 who came to visit, either one of them. So I did more or less the same

10 things.

11 Q. And so that I understand your testimony correctly, after April 30,

12 1992, you likewise did not type or perform any stenography tasks for

13 Dr. Stakic all the way through the time that you worked there; is that

14 correct?

15 A. No. No. I did not have to type one single letter. I couldn't do

16 it; I didn't have a typewriter. If I wanted to do that, I would have to

17 go to another office, I would have to type there. That would mean that

18 somebody would have to replace me in my regular job, and we had different

19 people who did that.

20 Q. Taking you briefly to the period of 1991 and 1992, did you, ma'am,

21 experience or have any family members who became refugees and moved from

22 the area of Croatia to the Prijedor municipality?

23 A. Yes. My sister came in 1990 from Zagreb, her husband and two

24 children. They were working for an auto transport firm in Zagreb and then

25 they came to Prijedor and began working there.

Page 11034

1 Q. And what year was that, ma'am?

2 A. That was 1990, end of 1990. In 1991, they already finished their

3 house.

4 Q. Forgive me for having to ask you the following series of

5 questions, but so that I, as well as the other members of this Chamber and

6 courtroom can have a better understanding of you as a person, did you,

7 madam, at any time have any ill will, prejudice, hatred, or discrimination

8 against Muslims, Croats, or other non-Serbs?

9 A. Me personally?

10 Q. Yes.

11 A. No, never. I -- I never felt any need to discriminate against any

12 other ethnic groups. They didn't treat me that way, and I didn't treat

13 them that way. I'm referring here to my neighbours and to my workmates,

14 starting with my superior, Cehajic.

15 Q. Do you, madam, still maintain relationships and friendships with

16 members of different ethnic groups, such as Muslim, Croatian, and

17 non-Serbs?

18 A. Yes, I still do. I have a wonderful relationship with my non-Serb

19 neighbours. And at work too, I have a close friend who is a Croat, a lady

20 friend. I'm not sure if that matters, but she lives in Zagreb. I think

21 she is as close to me as my sister is. Sometimes I feel even closer to

22 her. I don't have that much to talk about with my sister. We usually

23 discuss problems.

24 Q. Also let me ask a couple more personal questions: In connection

25 with your 30-year-old son, is he presently married?

Page 11035

1 A. Yes, he is.

2 Q. What is your ethnic background, ma'am?

3 A. I am a Serb, but I've only known this since 1991. I've only been

4 aware of this since 1991, because prior to that period of time, no one had

5 even thought to mention that.

6 Q. And your ex-husband, the father of your son, what is his ethnic

7 background?

8 A. He's a Serb.

9 Q. Now your son, being the son of two Serbs, as you put it, being

10 currently married, can you tell us whether he's married to a Serb, Croat,

11 Muslim, or another non-Serb?

12 A. My son is married to a Croatian woman.

13 Q. I'm going to switch the topic here a little bit. If I may be

14 permitted to just switch the topic a little bit, ma'am. I'm going to ask

15 you, during the period of time --

16 A. No problem.

17 Q. Thank you. During the period of time that you worked at the

18 Municipal Assembly, specifically in the early 1990s, 1991 through 1992,

19 was there a position in the Municipal Assembly that was known as mayor, or

20 was it the only position that was identified as president of the Municipal

21 Assembly?

22 A. No. At the Municipal Assembly, up to three years ago, the

23 position of mayor never existed. There was only the president of the

24 assembly. We've had a mayor perhaps for the last three or four years, as

25 far as I can remember. I had the honour to work with the first mayor for

Page 11036

1 six months, after which I retired. And I think the position of mayor is

2 very, very different from the position of president of the Municipal

3 Assembly, in terms of their authority, in terms of their areas of

4 competence, that sort of thing.

5 Q. Permit me to ask you this, and that is, could in 1991 and 1992,

6 the president of the Municipal Assembly fire, discharge, or dismiss you

7 from your employment that you held?

8 A. No. That would take a major violation, and then there would be a

9 disciplinary committee which would decide. There had to be some proof of

10 what I had done, and then maybe I would have been moved to a different

11 position. But this never happened to anyone. At least, that's what I

12 believe.

13 Q. So it is true, then, that Mr. Cehajic, during the period that he

14 was president of the Municipal Assembly, had no authority or competencies

15 to discharge or fire you from your employment; correct?

16 A. Well, he could move me from one job to another, perhaps, or bring

17 -- give a proposal for someone else to be put, to be brought into my place

18 for reasons that I cannot speculate about. Likewise, I find myself unable

19 to speculate as to what he might have done.

20 Q. I'm not asking you to speculate on what he might have done. With

21 respect to the tenure that you held with the mayor of Prijedor, this new

22 function that arose three or so years ago, did the mayor have the

23 competence and the authority to discharge a person in your function and

24 position in the Municipal Assembly building?

25 A. Yes. Yes. The mayor did have the authority, and he could

Page 11037

1 discharge me or anyone else who worked for the Municipal Assembly. He had

2 control over the whole institution, that means, over the whole community.

3 And he need not have given any reasons. Decisions would be made and

4 people would be moved from one job to another. So it was an unpleasant

5 situation, an uncomfortable situation for all those who were there,

6 because they would just be removed, and they didn't even have the right to

7 ask questions to know why. They had told us in advance that once the

8 mayor was in place, he wouldn't ask any questions. He could just fire

9 you, as simple as that, draw up a decision and fire you. I didn't myself

10 read the rules, so I don't know anything about the details of the mayor's

11 authority apart from what I've told you.

12 Q. Ma'am, at your request, I advised the Court that we may be seeking

13 leave to go into closed session on a couple of topics. Right before, or

14 in the next few minutes I'm going to be asking to go into closed session.

15 However, I'd like to lay the foundation and groundwork so that the Court

16 has an appreciation and then we'll go into closed session and I'll

17 continue to ask you a couple of questions.

18 First, ma'am, tell us approximately the time period - just the

19 time period - when you were first asked to testify in this case.

20 A. The time period, the first time I was asked that, was July last

21 year. I was back from vacation. It may have been at some point after the

22 20th of July.

23 Q. And tell us, if you will, when the Defence team asked you to

24 potentially be a witness and appear before this Court in the Stakic

25 matter.

Page 11038

1 A. It was a day or two before New Year. So it hasn't even been a

2 month. I was addressed by Mr. Branko Lukic.

3 Q. Now, at your request and with the Court's approval, I'd like to go

4 into closed session.

5 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Closed session, please.

6 [Closed session]

7 (redacted)

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Page 11039

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17 [Open session]

18 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Confirmed. Can you please continue.

19 MR. OSTOJIC:

20 Q. Madam, I'm going to take you to a period of time approximately ten

21 years ago. I'm going to ask you to attempt to recall certain facts and

22 observations that you made and experiences that you had in that time

23 period. By way of background, I understand completely that specific dates

24 are difficult to remember, so I will attempt, with the Court's permission

25 and no objection from the OTP, to set forth certain time lines and ask

Page 11041

1 that you accept them as being, for our purposes at least, accurate.

2 My question in essence is: On April 30, 1992, which is the date,

3 I think, the takeover in the Prijedor municipality occurred, can you share

4 with us, from whom did you hear about this take-over?

5 A. I heard about the takeover in the morning. I was getting ready to

6 go to work, and a neighbour called me on the phone. This friend of mine,

7 she is a Croat.

8 Q. And what is it that she advised you of when she called you on or

9 about that date?

10 A. It was in the morning, and she said, "Do you know that the Serbs

11 took over?" I said, "I have no idea. I just woke up minutes ago. I'm

12 getting ready to go to work. I'll just go there and see what happens."

13 That was the whole conversation.

14 Q. And subsequently, ma'am, were you able to go to the Municipal

15 Assembly building and see what had happened?

16 A. I went to the Municipal Assembly building. I went to work as

17 usual. There were no apparent changes. However, standing at the door of

18 the Municipal Assembly, I saw two young men in uniform. They ID'd me.

19 They wanted to see my ID. I showed them my ID, and they said, "Okay.

20 It's okay. You can enter the building."

21 Q. The period of time immediately following the takeover on the 30th

22 of April, 1992, did you have an opportunity to see Dr. Milomir Stakic?

23 A. Yes. I saw him in the office in which he sat even before the

24 takeover.

25 Q. So Dr. Stakic remained in the same office he had held prior to the

Page 11042

1 takeover?

2 A. Very briefly. A day, two or three, I think.

3 Q. Did you ever discuss or have a conversation with Dr. Stakic about

4 the takeover?

5 A. Never. I never discussed such things with my superiors. I never

6 discussed issues related to their positions. And I'm talking about all

7 the presidents that I worked with.

8 Q. By the way, I'm curious to know; how many different presidents of

9 the Municipal Assembly had you worked for in your 30-plus year career?

10 A. Thirteen or 14, I believe. I should try counting them to give you

11 the exact figure.

12 Q. No, that's approximately. Thank you. Now, your relationship with

13 Dr. Stakic was obviously professional, and as you described, he would not,

14 and certainly you would not, have any discussions relating to things that

15 would concern his position and necessarily things that would be relevant

16 to your position; correct?

17 A. No. We never discussed Dr. Stakic's business except if he wanted

18 me to make a phone call or to call someone from another service in the

19 institution or someone from the administration.

20 Q. I'd like to take you through the time period that we've, in

21 essence, attempted to establish, and that is the time period from April

22 30th through May 30, 1992. And ma'am, I'm using and asking you to also

23 have an understanding of May 30th as being the attack on the city of

24 Prijedor. During that time period but before the attack on Prijedor, you

25 as the receptionist who received telephone calls for Dr. Stakic at the

Page 11043

1 Municipal Assembly building, did you likewise during that time period

2 receive telephone calls from Mr. Cehajic, asking to speak to Dr. Stakic?

3 A. Yes. Yes. That was a day or two or three, perhaps maybe only a

4 day. I find this difficult to speak about, the exact time. It's been 10

5 or 12 years since. Myself, I was very unhappy about the whole thing, what

6 was going on, and it's difficult for me to speak about these moments. But

7 yes, I do remember Cehajic calling. He said,"Mica, can you please put me

8 through to Dr. Stakic. I need to have a word." So I put him through.

9 Q. And Dr. Stakic --

10 A. Then they had a conversation.

11 Q. That was my question. Thank you. I think you've answered, but

12 just so I'm clear -- yes?

13 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Just for clarification, on the transcript, it

14 reads, "Yes, that was a day or three perhaps," but what does it mean?

15 Sorry. After the takeover or --

16 MR. OSTOJIC: Thank you. I'll clarify it, Your Honour. I

17 appreciate that.

18 Q. Ma'am, it's my fault and I probably interrupted you and I should

19 not have, so I apologise for that. Is it your testimony that soon after

20 30th of April [Realtime transcript read in error "May"] 1992, the day of

21 the takeover, Mr. Cehajic called Dr. Stakic and you put him through and

22 they had a conversation; correct?

23 A. Yes. First he called me and asked me to put him through to

24 Dr. Stakic because he couldn't call him directly.

25 Q. We're still having -- and madam thank you for your answer, but

Page 11044

1 we're still having trouble. Perhaps because it's my fault. It says in

2 the transcript, "after May 30th." I think the question was specific. I

3 think we said April 30th; the transcript says May 30th. I just want to be

4 clear, so can I have one more attempt at this, Judge?

5 In any event, ma'am, the transcript says after May 30th. My

6 question, I believe, was confined to April 30th. Let me just please be

7 permitted to ask you the question one more time, I'll endeavour to say it

8 slowly so everybody can get it, although it's not necessarily a major

9 point.

10 After the takeover, April 30th, 1992, did you in fact, ma'am, have

11 an opportunity to receive a call from Mr. Cehajic seeking to talk to

12 Dr. Stakic?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And --

15 A. After the takeover - now I must add it was the 30th of April - I

16 put Mr. Cehajic through to Dr. Stakic, because Mr. Cehajic had requested

17 to speak to Dr. Stakic.

18 Q. And before you put someone through, from my understanding of your

19 position, you would contact Dr. Stakic and advise him who was on the

20 phone, who was looking for him, and then if he agreed to accept the call,

21 you would transfer the call to Dr. Stakic; correct?

22 A. Yes. I would dial Dr. Stakic in that case, and I would tell him,

23 "You have Mr. Cehajic waiting on the line." And then Mr. Stakic would

24 tell me, "Okay, put him through." And then I would put him through and

25 they would continue their conversation.

Page 11045

1 Q. And that's the way your function was essentially before as it was

2 after April 30, 1992; correct?

3 A. That's right. That's always been my job and my task.

4 Q. Did Dr. Stakic at that time refuse to accept the call of Mr.

5 Cehajic?

6 A. No. No. He never had a moment's doubt even.

7 Q. During the period of time April 30, 1992, through May 30, 1992,

8 based on your personal observations and experiences, did Dr. Stakic at any

9 time during that limited time period in any way defame or render negative

10 or discriminatory comments against Mr. Cehajic or anyone?

11 A. No, not for a moment during the period you referred to.

12 Dr. Stakic never for a moment showed any sign of ill will to any citizen,

13 or any non-Serb citizens, for that matter, Muslims or Croats. Quite the

14 contrary. I believe I don't remember that someone came and Dr. Stakic

15 refused to see him. But there were still people working there, being

16 gainfully employed at the Municipal Assembly.

17 Q. Moving now quickly to the period of May 30, 1992, which was an

18 attack on the city town of Prijedor, and madam, I know that you're

19 familiar with the events that transpired on May 22 at Hambarine as well as

20 May 24th at Kozarac, but I think for our purposes we'll limit your

21 testimony specifically, since you lived in the town of Prijedor, and

22 describe for us what it is that you experienced on or about May 30, 1992.

23 A. On the 30th of May, that's when the attack on Prijedor took place

24 by Muslims. How did I find out? It was 5.00 in the morning. There was

25 sounds of shooting in the town. We thought should we get up quickly and

Page 11046

1 go anywhere. I know father said, "Come on, get up quickly," and I said,

2 "Oh, come on, just leave me be," but no matter.

3 My neighbour called from the adjacent building. She could hear

4 more clearly where the shooting was coming from. Sometimes it's difficult

5 to tell, because in a town the shooting echoes because the buildings are

6 close together. And then she told me that her daughter-in-law called, who

7 lived close to the secondary school for economics, in that district, and

8 she said there was a man lying on the ground, a wounded man outside her

9 building. Later, we found out that this was a bread delivery man, because

10 they are the earlier risers.

11 I didn't realise that anything else was happening or why there was

12 shooting. I only knew what I learned over the phone.

13 Q. Specifically in connection with this attack on the city town of

14 Prijedor, I would like to ask you the following question, that is: Within

15 the city town, is there a mosque, a Muslim house of worship within the

16 city town of Prijedor?

17 A. There was a mosque in the centre of Prijedor, if that is the way I

18 can put it. I don't know what the centre is. But in any case, there was

19 a mosque there.

20 Q. During the attack on Prijedor by the Muslims, as you've described

21 them, was the mosque, the Muslim place of worship, destroyed?

22 A. Yes. The mosque was destroyed on the eve of the 12th of July.

23 Why do I remember the date? Because -- now I'm going to sidetrack a

24 little. I was born on St. Peter's Day, but it has been recorded I was

25 born on the 13th. That's why my birthday is on the 13th, and that's why I

Page 11047

1 thought I had a fireworks display on the eve of my birthday. That's how I

2 can -- but my birthday proper. So on the 11th of July, on the eve of my

3 birthday proper.

4 Q. Just so we have it clear on the record, my question was - and I'll

5 repeat it - the mosque was not destroyed or defaced or burned on the 30th

6 of May, 1992 or at any time from the 30th of April, 1992, up until the

7 time that you recall, namely July 12, 1992; correct?

8 A. It wasn't destroyed. One could see it, passing by, and I saw that

9 scene from my balcony. We were watching it for a long time. It wasn't a

10 short thing. It lasted for a long period of time. I don't know why, but

11 in any case, there were -- I don't know. There were things burning for a

12 long time.

13 Q. Okay. Let me move to a different area specifically relating to

14 Dr. Stakic. At any time did you personally observe or experience whether

15 or not Dr. Stakic exhibited prejudice, hatred, discrimination, or ill will

16 against Muslims, Croats, or non-Serbs?

17 A. I never noticed that. Dr. Stakic was very correct in his

18 behaviour towards everybody. Whoever came, he would receive them. He

19 never said anything against Croats or Muslims in front of me, or any other

20 person, for that matter. I believe that he was very correct towards all

21 the ethnicities.

22 Q. Ma'am, although I've had the personal pleasure of meeting you over

23 the last couple of days, I'm going to ask you a question: Would you have

24 worked for Dr. Stakic if he had exhibited any such signs or propensity of

25 hatred, prejudice, discrimination, or ill will towards other ethnic

Page 11048

1 groups, namely Muslims, Croats, and non-Serbs?

2 A. I would not have worked for him or anybody else. And even if, for

3 example, Cehajic had said something against a Serb, I would have told him,

4 "Don't say that in front of me." I would have reacted the same way if

5 Dr. Stakic said something like that. But Dr. Stakic helped everybody who

6 came asking for help, and I didn't notice ever that Dr. Stakic would turn

7 down something that he had to do on that day, that he needed to do for

8 people on any given day.

9 Q. And likewise, ma'am, am I correct that if you knew or heard about

10 the fact that Dr. Stakic allegedly was discriminatory, had prejudices or

11 ill will or hatred toward other ethnic groups, in fact you would not be

12 here testifying; correct?

13 A. I wouldn't testify. Never. I'm sure that Dr. Stakic, as far as I

14 could see and observe, and I believe that I was old enough and experienced

15 enough in order to be able to judge a person and see what people think,

16 because I've had a number of people or presidents of the municipality that

17 I worked with, and I think I would have noticed any little gesture that

18 would point to the fact that he showed intolerance against anybody. But

19 he was really kind and polite towards everybody.

20 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: May I ask Defence counsel, please, to refrain

21 from hypothetical questions and, by doing so, misleading the witness,

22 because from the transcript it transpires now the impression that the

23 witness would not be prepared, on request, to testify when there would be

24 another testimony at stake. So therefore, please take care.

25 MR. OSTOJIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

Page 11049

1 Q. With respect to a different issue and time period that we've

2 identified in essence as being the spring and summer of 1992, I'm going to

3 ask for your personal experiences and observations for that time period,

4 essentially from April 30, 1992, through September 30, 1992. Can you tell

5 us whether or not Milomir Stakic had any influence or power and authority

6 over the police in the Prijedor municipality?

7 A. Dr. Stakic did not have any influence or power or authority over

8 the police in Prijedor.

9 Q. Share with us, if you will, what is the basis of your opinion and

10 your personal experience?

11 A. My personal experience consists in the following: In 1992, I went

12 to see Mr. Drljaca and ask him for a favour, and the favour was for my son

13 to be -- not to be sent to the war. I didn't ask that favour of

14 Dr. Stakic because I knew that he was not in the position to do that.

15 Mr. Drljaca did not grant my request.

16 Q. During the period the spring and summer of 1992, can you share

17 with us who your son's best friend was at that time.

18 A. Spring and summer 1992, my son -- I'm not clear about your

19 question, but he did have a friend at the time who -- whose name was

20 Nedzad Kosuran.

21 Q. Did there come a point in time that your son discussed his friend

22 with you and the fact that he was detained in Omarska in 1992,

23 approximately June; correct?

24 A. Yes, that is correct. I just wanted to correct myself, and I

25 wanted to say that they were not acquainted just for a brief period of

Page 11050

1 time. They were friends from high school. They shared the same bench in

2 the high school. They were sitting together.

3 And my son came to me and asked me for advice, and he said,

4 "Nedzko is in Omarska. He was taken there for investigation, for

5 interrogation." And I gave it a long and hard thought. I love my son. I

6 wanted to help him. As simple as that. And I also like his friend who

7 came to our house very often. And I was thinking about maybe going to

8 Stakic, but I knew that that was out of the question.

9 Then I went to see my ex-husband, who worked as an inspector, as

10 an investigator. I don't know what to call that. I didn't find that very

11 easy. I'm not finding it easy now to have to talk about it openly,

12 because we had interrupted all of our ties 20 years before that, and the

13 only times we would talk to each other were when we were in court, when I

14 would sue him for child support. That's when we talked. But I had to

15 swallow my pride, and I had to go and see him.

16 I went to see him together with my son, of course. We didn't have

17 much to say to each other. Our only topic of conversation was this young

18 man. He asked me how I knew that. And although my son was there, I had

19 to speak on his behalf, and I had to say that our son knew the boy very

20 well and that he wanted to help him and that that had nothing whatsoever

21 to do with any problems in Prijedor. And he said, "Very well, then.

22 Okay." And that lad was then transferred to Trnopolje and there he stayed

23 for I don't know how long, but what mattered to me was that he eventually

24 was released.

25 Q. Ma'am, just so I understand, instead of going to your colleague at

Page 11051

1 work, someone who you have known for a period of time, someone who you

2 obviously didn't have any conflict with, namely Dr. Stakic, instead you

3 chose to inquire about this young man of your ex-husband with whom you've

4 had a bitter divorce and an ongoing bitter relationship; correct?

5 A. I didn't go to Dr. Stakic for a simple reason: I knew that he

6 didn't have any contacts with the police and that the police usually did

7 their job, and they are independent in their work. Sometimes I used to

8 say that the police is a state within the state.

9 Q. I am now turning to a different but somewhat related topic.

10 During that same time period, the spring and summer of 1992, based upon

11 your personal experiences and observations, can you tell us whether or not

12 Milomir Stakic had any influence, power, or authority over the military,

13 whether it be the JNA or the VRS?

14 A. No. I have an example to share with you and by which to show you

15 that Dr. Stakic couldn't influence them. In any case, he didn't grant my

16 request. I entered Dr. Stakic's office, and I asked him whether he could

17 help me with -- again I'm talking about my son, because that is what I

18 always go back to, because I've always lived for my son. To this very day

19 and all throughout the war, my only concern was his well-being, where he

20 was going, where he would be sent. Because even before that, I was under

21 the impression of the war events -- my son served his compulsory military

22 service in Karlovac in 1990 and 1991. So already at the time, I was

23 stressed out, and I really was concerned with what would happen next. So

24 let me go back to my request to the -- what I started talking about.

25 I entered Dr. Stakic's office and I asked him if he could help me

Page 11052

1 by relieving my son of his compulsory military service. I knew that he

2 couldn't help me because everybody had to serve in the army, but I had to

3 try. I had to give it my best shot so that one day I could say at least I

4 had given a shot, I had tried. So I addressed Dr. Stakic because of that.

5 Then I also told him --

6 Q. Please continue.

7 A. Then I also told him what is it that I wanted to see him about,

8 and I asked him if it was possible to grant my son's request not to be

9 sent to the front line. And his answer was, "Unfortunately, I can't do

10 that. I don't have any influence over the army. If I did, then I would

11 do something like that for my wife whose brother is being sent to the

12 front line, or some other of my family who are either being sent or who

13 are there already."

14 Q. And, ma'am --

15 A. Fortunately --

16 Q. Let me just ask the question.

17 MR. OSTOJIC: I think the interpreter said "fortunately" and I

18 think the witness may have said "unfortunately" but that was because of my

19 interruption. May I be permitted to put a question?

20 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Please continue.

21 MR. OSTOJIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

22 Q. Ma'am, did you come to learn about Dr. Stakic's personal family;

23 namely, his wife's brother - his brother-in-law - and the son of his

24 wife's sister? What fate did they ultimately have as a result of being in

25 the military in 1992?

Page 11053

1 A. When I said "unfortunately," I wanted to continue. Later on, in

2 1992, towards the end of that year - I can't remember the date - Bozana's

3 brother, Mr. Stakic's wife's brother, was killed, and also his sister's

4 husband. So it was indeed true that Stakic didn't have any influence over

5 the army.

6 Q. I'm going to ask you a couple of questions in connection with

7 Dr. Stakic's family and the personal observations and experiences that you

8 had with them. Did you have an opportunity to meet his young son?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. And --

11 A. I met him.

12 Q. And share with us the circumstances in which you met him.

13 A. The first time I saw lady Bozana with her son was in 1991.

14 Mr. Cehajic was already there, and they met each other in the corridor in

15 front of my office. They greeted each other very cordially, and

16 Mr. Cehajic was very polite and pleasant to her. That was my first

17 contact with her -- that is, with them.

18 Later on when they moved to Prijedor and when they took residence

19 there, Milan, the son, Dr. Stakic's son, went to kindergarten, and

20 sometimes Dr. Stakic would pick him up from the kindergarten and would

21 bring him back to the office and I would mind him while Dr. Stakic still

22 had work to do. And that was the -- the lad was really nice, and he would

23 sometimes peek through the keyhole to see what his father was doing in the

24 adjacent office.

25 Q. Ma'am, share with us -- ma'am, please share with us your opinion

Page 11054

1 relating to Dr. Stakic's character and reputation.

2 A. I perceived Dr. Stakic as -- as a people's man, a man that

3 belonged to the people. He was well educated. He communicated well with

4 the people. He helped people. Very diligent, very responsible,

5 hard-working person. And if that was not my perception of Dr. Stakic, if

6 I didn't have such an opinion of him, believe me, I wouldn't be here for a

7 single moment.

8 Q. Let me ask you, ma'am, what your thoughts, feelings, and emotions

9 were at or about the time that Dr. Stakic was arrested and brought here to

10 The Hague.

11 A. When I heard that on television, I was quite surprised. I was

12 actually frozen, because, as I say, I was really surprised and depressed

13 to hear that. I definitely, firmly believed that he should not have been

14 taken there. And I thought if he had to be taken, then he would have been

15 taken earlier on. And I was absolutely convinced that it was just an

16 accident, a sheer accident, and not for a single moment did I think that

17 this was the right thing to do. And to this very day, I still believe

18 that it must have been a mistake.

19 MR. OSTOJIC: Thank you, Your Honour. We have no further

20 questions. Thank you, ma'am.

21 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: To be honest, I'm taken by surprise when I

22 reflect your amended proffer. You didn't cover all the issues included

23 there. Is it on purpose or not?

24 MR. OSTOJIC: Yes, Your Honour. Yes. Quite frankly, I can

25 explain if the Court wishes. The proffer, as the Court has requested us

Page 11055

1 to turn in, is to obtain information that the witness may have. The

2 Defence, however, we believe, is placing this witness on the stand

3 specifically for certain issues. We certainly don't want to mislead or

4 misrepresent that the witness has information in connection with other

5 issues that may interest - although we don't agree - interest other

6 parties in this case. We brought her specifically for the items that I

7 believe she testified consistent with. So -- but she does have that

8 information.

9 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Thank you for all this clarification, and I

10 think it's then appropriate to have the break now. The Prosecution is

11 prepared for cross-examination immediately after the break or --

12 MR. KOUMJIAN: Sure. I can either start now or after the break.

13 Ten minutes, if you want.

14 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Then the trial stays adjourned until ten minutes

15 past three.

16 --- Recess taken at 2.50 p.m.

17 --- On resuming at 3.14 p.m.

18 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Please be seated. May I ask that we can have a

19 calculation and also ask the registry to be prepared. What about your

20 estimate, you will need?

21 MR. KOUMJIAN: I think at least two hours, so I do not anticipate

22 finishing today.

23 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: From -- so that nobody is taken by surprise, it

24 will be a long testimony, and there will be a long line of questions

25 tomorrow, and also, therefore, it might even be that, if necessary and in

Page 11056

1 order to enable the witness to return tomorrow, that we have to proceed

2 longer as scheduled on the basis of the evident questions to put to you.

3 But only that you know. Please start.

4 MR. KOUMJIAN: Thank you.

5 Cross-examined by Mr. Koumjian:

6 Q. Madam, thank you for agreeing to come to The Hague at the request

7 of the Defence and to tell us what you know about these events.

8 Madam, you described Dr. Stakic's character towards the end of

9 your direct testimony and called him well-educated and diligent and

10 responsible. Would you agree -- would you describe him as a very

11 intelligent man?

12 A. Yes, I would.

13 Q. Would you describe him as a hard-working president of the

14 Municipal Assembly?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Was Dr. Stakic a person who was firm in his beliefs or was he the

17 type of person who would be manipulated by other people?

18 A. I think Dr. Stakic stood by his beliefs, and I don't think he

19 could have been manipulated.

20 Q. Can you tell us more about how you know or how long you knew

21 Dr. Stakic. Would it -- did you know him before he became the

22 vice-president of the elected multi-ethnic Assembly?

23 A. The first time I saw the president, or the vice-president at this

24 time, when he came to the office as the vice-president of the Municipal

25 Assembly. I did not know him or seen him prior to that point. Moreover,

Page 11057

1 I had never even heard of him.

2 Q. Okay. Thank you. Well, I know that he was elected following the

3 1990 elections. Perhaps you can remind me the date when those individuals

4 took office. Do you remember when it was that the persons elected the

5 president and the vice-president of the Assembly following the elections

6 actually took their positions?

7 A. The president of the Assembly, I can't remember the date, but we'd

8 been working up to a year and a half, I think, roughly before the

9 takeover. That's at least what I remember.

10 Now, why is it that I can't remember the exact date? During this

11 time, and I must repeat this, my son was in the army, and I often went

12 there to visit him. That's as long as I could. There was a period where

13 I was not able to go. So I mostly worried about these things, when to go

14 and how to arrive there, what the situation was like in Croatia, would I

15 be able to go and visit my son.

16 Q. It's certainly understandable that you don't remember exact dates.

17 Would it be safe for us to assume that you met Dr. Stakic, that he took

18 that position by at least January of 1991?

19 A. No. 1991, that's possible. That's roughly what I think too, a

20 year and a half. Yes, that's possible. I don't know. I'm not sure. I

21 don't know the date. I don't know the year, but I think that up to this

22 point, we had been working together for a year and a half.

23 Q. Thank you very much for that answer. And when you say a year and

24 a half, you're talking about a year and a half before the takeover of the

25 municipality and when Dr. Stakic took over the office of Mr. --

Page 11058

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. -- Cehajic; correct?

3 A. Yes. I'm talking about this period, because you asked how long

4 before that point in time I had known Mr. Stakic, and the answer is for a

5 year and a half, when he was the vice-president of the Municipal Assembly.

6 Q. Okay. Thank you. And then he remained in that position, the

7 former position of Professor Cehajic, until January of 1993; is that

8 correct? Are my dates correct?

9 A. I can't remember the dates. I know that after that, there were

10 some circumstances which led -- which led to Dr. Stakic's removal, but I

11 don't know really. I was never involved in politics. I was never

12 interested in politics, and I never understood politics. My job was to

13 sit there, receive messages, and do what I would be told to do.

14 Q. Okay. Thank you. And then I gather from your answer you never

15 attended -- or correct me if I'm wrong; did you ever attend any meetings

16 of political parties?

17 A. No. I never attended a single meeting of any political party, nor

18 was I ever a member of any political party. And you can only attend such

19 meetings if you're a member.

20 Q. Okay. Thank you for that helpful information. Madam, since

21 apparently I understand that you remained in the position of that

22 secretary until after the Dayton Accords, is it correct that you again

23 worked for Dr. Stakic when he came back as the president of the

24 municipality at the end of the war?

25 A. Yes. I stayed in the same job. It's a very technical job. It's

Page 11059

1 not any sort of high office or anything. Yes, I kept working in the same

2 job.

3 Q. Yes. We understand that. But perhaps you can help us. Can you

4 tell us, to the best of your recollection, the dates that Dr. Stakic held

5 the office of president of the Municipal Assembly of Prijedor for the

6 second time?

7 A. I can't remember the dates, but I know that it was in 1995 and

8 1996. It didn't mean much to me, when someone comes and when someone

9 goes.

10 Q. Okay. Would it be correct that he took the position before the

11 end of the war, before the signing of the Dayton Accords?

12 A. I see that I made a mistake. No, not before the signing of the

13 Dayton Accords.

14 Q. Would it be correct, then, that he was in the position from 1996

15 to 1997?

16 A. Yes. I remember this because I had some personal trouble. This

17 is what I always relate to when I think about time. I had asked some

18 people who worked in our building to grant me permission for something,

19 and I think it was about the same time. And I think I even asked

20 Dr. Stakic, but to no effect.

21 Q. Okay. I'm sorry, but I'm a bit confused about your answer. Is

22 that how you remember the day that he took the position or how you

23 remember the day he left the position?

24 A. It was the period that he was there. I'm not talking about the

25 day he came back or the day he left again. I'm referring to the whole

Page 11060

1 second period that he was in office. For example, the request that I

2 filed, it was in June, and the next year, in April, I was granted

3 approval. So what I know for sure is that throughout that period I've

4 just specified, he was there, yes.

5 Q. Okay. From at least June 1996 through April of 1997; is that

6 correct? At least through that period of time?

7 A. I'd say yes.

8 Q. And I understand from your testimony you don't recall the date

9 that Dr. Stakic stopped being the president of the Municipal Assembly of

10 Prijedor, but I'd like you to relate it to another event that I'm sure you

11 recall. Do you recall the day that Mr. Kovacevic was arrested and that

12 Mr. Drljaca was killed during an attempted arrest?

13 A. I do recall those days. It was in the summer.

14 Q. Would the date of the 10th of July, 1997, sound approximately

15 correct for when that event occurred?

16 A. That's possible. Again, I know that it was just before St.

17 Peter's Day. Again, this is a personal reference because I was born on

18 that day. That's why I seem to remember.

19 During this period of time, I was not at work. I had a health

20 problem. I had been on sick leave for almost two months. Before and

21 after that, and I had a visitor from abroad visiting me, so that was

22 another reason why I needed to stay home throughout that period.

23 Q. When you came back to work, was Dr. Stakic still coming to work as

24 the president of the Municipal Assembly?

25 A. No.

Page 11061

1 Q. Do you know why he stopped coming to work as the president of the

2 Municipal Assembly in the summer of 1997?

3 A. I don't know.

4 Q. Madam, you worked for many presidents of the Municipal Assembly of

5 Prijedor, and we all would like to take advantage of your great

6 experience.

7 In your experience, is it important for a person in that position

8 to know that is going on throughout the municipality of Prijedor?

9 A. Not necessarily. For my job, it certainly isn't very important.

10 Q. I'm not talking about your job. I'm talking about the position of

11 president of the Municipal Assembly of Prijedor. Do you think a good

12 president of the Municipal Assembly keeps him or herself informed of what

13 is going on in the municipality of Prijedor?

14 MR. OSTOJIC: Let me object to the form of the question, Your

15 Honour, because it obviously calls for a speculative answer. Since this

16 witness has never held that position and counsel is putting in a verb such

17 as "good" president as opposed to maybe average or the best president. So

18 it's not only improper in form but it also calls and speaks for

19 speculative testimony from a witness who did not hold that position.

20 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Perhaps you can rephrase the question because

21 the purpose of the question is quite clear.

22 MR. KOUMJIAN:

23 Q. Madam, did Dr. Stakic, when he occupied the office of president of

24 the municipality, did he bother to keep himself informed of events in the

25 municipality of Prijedor?

Page 11062

1 A. Did he bother? It's not up to me to know whether he wanted to

2 keep himself informed or not.

3 Q. Okay. Madam, you sat outside his office for a period of several

4 years; is that correct?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. You received the phone calls that came to him in his office and

7 passed them on to him; is that correct?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. And correct me if I'm wrong, would you also contact individuals on

10 his behalf? In other words, make the outgoing phone call and connect

11 those persons to Dr. Stakic?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. You would bring him material that he needed in order to perform

14 his job, such as official journals such as the Gazette, the Official

15 Gazette of Prijedor, isn't that true?

16 A. No. No, that's not true. There were other people who were in

17 charge of this, mail, that sort of thing, forwarding documents to

18 Dr. Stakic. That wasn't my job. I was only in charge of my phone, my

19 pen, and my paper.

20 Q. Would you pass on material that came from the mail personnel to

21 Dr. Stakic, or would a mail person walk into the office of the president?

22 A. Yes. A mail person or a person working in a different section

23 would come. First they would announce their arrival and ask if Dr. Stakic

24 was free to see them, and then the president would either say yes or

25 postpone this, in which case whoever needed to see the president

Page 11063

1 officially would come, bringing the mail or the documents, and they would

2 walk straight into his office to deliver the papers.

3 Q. Did Dr. Stakic receive, for example, Kozarski Vjesnik whenever it

4 came out?

5 A. I'm not sure which period you're referring to.

6 Q. Actually, I'm referring to the entire -- well, let me first limit

7 myself, then, to 1992.

8 In 1992, did Dr. Stakic receive Kozarski Vjesnik whenever that

9 paper was published?

10 A. I don't remember any such papers being there. I don't know really

11 at this time.

12 Q. Did Dr. Stakic receive the Official Gazette of the municipality of

13 Prijedor?

14 A. The Assembly was not operating at that time because the

15 circumstances were different. The Assembly didn't meet, so there was no

16 Official Gazette or any such material.

17 Q. Is it your testimony that the Prijedor Municipal Assembly never

18 met in 1992 after the takeover?

19 A. They did, but I can't say when exactly. September, maybe, or

20 thereabouts. I can't remember. August or September.

21 Q. And can you tell us, when the Municipal Assembly was not meeting,

22 who was leading the civilian government of Prijedor?

23 A. The civilian government? The MUP, Ministry of Interior, and the

24 army. There was no such thing as civilian government. We worked in

25 administrative bodies.

Page 11064

1 Now, what is the civilian government? The MUP, the Ministry of

2 the Interior, if that's what you're referring to, then I should say the

3 MUP were in charge.

4 Q. So you don't understand what I mean by "civilian government," or

5 you think -- I will withdraw the question.

6 Madam, when -- Dr. Stakic, in 1992, did he come to work every day,

7 every day during the week?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Well, was he working for the government at that time or was he

10 working for the MUP?

11 A. He was working for the Municipal Assembly. You say "government,"

12 but I wouldn't call it government. It's an administrative body, and

13 government is at republic level.

14 Q. Okay. Thank you. Thank you for correcting the terminology, and

15 please use your own terminology. I'll try to use whatever terms you use.

16 The Municipal Assembly, just so we're clear what we're talking

17 about --

18 A. Fine.

19 Q. -- the Municipal Assembly that Dr. Stakic was working for was not

20 meeting, so who was making the decisions that were in the competence of

21 the Municipal Assembly when it was not meeting?

22 A. Decisions in the Assembly itself you mean. I don't quite

23 understand your question, I'm afraid.

24 Q. Decisions within the competence of the Municipal Assembly. In

25 other words, the work that the Municipal Assembly would normally do, the

Page 11065

1 decisions that they would normally make, who was making those decisions

2 when the Municipal Assembly was not meeting in 1992?

3 A. I don't know. The Assembly wasn't meeting. There were no written

4 decisions to be made, so I don't know. The Executive Board, the Crisis

5 Staff, or someone. I'm not sure. Maybe that's what you were referring

6 to.

7 Q. Well, in fact, it was the Crisis Staff that took over the duties

8 and the competencies of the Municipal Assembly. Isn't that correct?

9 A. [No interpretation]

10 Q. I believe the witness answered but I didn't get the

11 interpretation. Could you repeat your answer a little louder, please?

12 The interpreters didn't hear you.

13 A. Yes. Yes.

14 Q. Ma'am, among your duties sitting at the desk outside the office of

15 the president was to bring documents for his signature or to direct them

16 for his signature. Am I correct?

17 A. No. I never brought him any documents to be signed, not even

18 before the war. It's just the kind of job I had. You may see my job

19 differently from what it really was. Technical secretary, it was -- the

20 title of my job was technical secretary. I was like a receptionist.

21 Q. Thank you, ma'am. I'm not telling you what your job is. I'm sure

22 you know much better than me, and we just appreciate you telling us.

23 Isn't it a fact that you were aware, after working for many, many

24 years with the president of the municipality of the Municipal Assembly

25 that it was part of his job to sign the decisions of the Municipal

Page 11066

1 Assembly?

2 A. I know that was part of his job, yes, but I was not the one to

3 bring them to him to be signed, myself personally.

4 Q. Thank you for making that clear. Who would bring the documents to

5 Dr. Stakic, after the takeover, for his signature?

6 A. It may have been someone from a different section, the technical

7 service of the municipality. Not the Municipal Assembly but the technical

8 service of the municipality. That's a different service, a different

9 unit. And I'm saying also before the war there was the same unit, because

10 their type of work didn't change. If there was a decision to be adopted,

11 a conclusion to be adopted, for example. And that was also the case

12 before the war. About a rise in the prices of utilities - water,

13 electricity, that sort of thing - then a proposal would be forwarded to

14 this technical unit of the municipality. This technical unit, technical

15 service would prepare this for the Assembly meeting, then they would

16 consult with people who were qualified to discuss these subjects, and only

17 then would they forward the proposal to the Municipal Assembly.

18 Q. And that would be the unit headed by Mr. Baltic in 1992, Dusan

19 Baltic; is that correct? Ma'am, if you could speak up a little bit, or

20 perhaps if her chair could be moved closer to the microphone.

21 A. Yes, yes. That's correct. Correct.

22 Q. Okay. And, madam, would you see, in 1992, members of that

23 administrative service taking documents to Dr. Stakic for his signature?

24 A. Yes. I didn't see him sign these documents, but I saw people

25 coming. The secretary would come and say, "I need to see the president,"

Page 11067

1 that sort of thing. Now, what he was signing, I couldn't say. People

2 would just bring it straight to him.

3 Q. Thank you. Having worked with Dr. Stakic for two different

4 periods of time, would it be correct that you're familiar with his

5 signature, the manner in which he signs his name?

6 A. No. I'm not familiar with his signature because there was never

7 any need for me to look at his signature. I don't think I could identify

8 his signature. I'm not familiar with it.

9 Q. Are you familiar with -- I'm not asking you to recognise his

10 signature. Are you familiar with how he would sign his name in the Latin

11 script? Isn't it true that you saw him sign, or saw documents he signed

12 "S. Milomir"?

13 A. Never.

14 Q. So your testimony is you worked with Dr. Stakic from early January

15 1991 until January 1993 - two years - and then in 1996 and 1997, and you

16 don't know how he signs his name?

17 A. Yes.

18 MR. OSTOJIC: She gave an answer, but I have to object to the form

19 of the question because the question that preceded that asked if she's

20 familiar with that specific one, but she answered the question

21 nevertheless. But it's an inappropriate question that he asked and the

22 follow-up was even more inappropriate.

23 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Objection dismissed.

24 MR. KOUMJIAN:

25 Q. Madam, did you ever hear Dr. Stakic say that the Muslims were

Page 11068

1 artificially created?

2 A. Never. I can swear a thousand times, if you'd like me to. I'll

3 swear upon my family, if that's what it takes.

4 Q. You've already taken an oath, so I won't ask you to swear again.

5 And you would remember that because that would be a very

6 insulting, biased remark; correct?

7 A. Certainly, yes, I would remember that. I would be very disturbed

8 by something like that.

9 Q. Madam, you received Simo Drljaca as a visitor to Dr. Stakic during

10 1992. He came to his office. Isn't that true?

11 A. No. I used to receive everyone who came, but Simo Drljaca never

12 came.

13 Q. Your testimony is that throughout 1992, you never saw Simo Drljaca

14 in the office of Dr. Stakic?

15 A. I saw him in June, at the beginning of June. That was the first

16 time he came after the takeover, and I wouldn't have remembered this had

17 they not had a fierce argument in the office, and that was the reason I

18 remember. I had to close the window to the office so the clients waiting

19 outside couldn't hear them quarreling, because you could hear through the

20 open window.

21 Q. And that was in Dr. Stakic's office?

22 A. Precisely.

23 Q. Well, when you answered a few moments ago, "No, I used to receive

24 everyone who came, but Simo Drljaca never came," referring to line 3, page

25 88, why did you give that answer if you remember this?

Page 11069

1 A. I don't understand the question. What do you mean first no and

2 then yes? Yes. Let's just say yes.

3 Q. Well, in fact, ma'am, Simo Drljaca came on many more than --

4 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Sorry. Based upon that what we can read from

5 the transcript, the Trial Chamber has decided to tell the witness about

6 consequences on the occasion of false testimony under solemn declaration.

7 Rule 91 of our Rules of Procedure and Evidence state: "A Chamber

8 may warn a witness of the duty to tell the truth and the consequences that

9 may result from a failure to do so."

10 And your answers gave reasons to proceed this way, really to warn

11 you to give us true answers, not to omit anything what you know. And you

12 should be aware that when you are telling us the truth and the entire

13 truth, you run no risk at all. But in case there is a false testimony

14 under this solemn declaration, the Rules provide for a maximum penalty for

15 false testimony under solemn declaration for a fine of 100.000 euros or a

16 term of imprisonment of seven years, or both, and that is not only theory.

17 Did you understand this admonition?

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I did, and thank you for the

19 warning, but I still don't know what this is all about. There may have

20 been a misunderstanding when I answered a question. In any case, may

21 these questions be short?

22 MR. LUKIC: Your Honour, sorry, after your admonition I have to

23 add something. The translation was not correct. You can check it.

24 Page 88, line 19, the witness said, "Let's just say once," and it

25 was translated, "Let's just say yes." So please check first with the

Page 11070

1 Translation Unit and then admonish our witnesses.

2 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Could you please take the adequate tone here in

3 the courtroom first; and second, the admonition was more than due. It was

4 also based on previous testimony. So it's --

5 MR. LUKIC: I am surprised, because you admonish almost every

6 single of our witnesses. You never admonish their witnesses for whom we

7 showed 20 times that they lied.

8 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Would you please calm down first, and you know

9 it is not true what you are just saying.

10 MR. LUKIC: We have problems with bringing our witnesses here

11 because they heard that this Chamber is not fair toward our witnesses, and

12 we have now problems because our people, our witnesses do not want to come

13 here.

14 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: I don't want to have arguments on this issue

15 here and right now in the presence of a witness. You know this very well.

16 If you so want, please request a 65 ter (i) meeting.

17 MR. OSTOJIC: Your Honour, may I, since I led the witness --

18 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: I don't want to go any further arguments on this

19 issue.

20 MR. OSTOJIC: It's not an argument.

21 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: If the Prosecution can proceed and maybe, by

22 doing so, clarify this issue.

23 MR. OSTOJIC: I'd just like to make an objection, if I may. To

24 the question itself that's being asked by the OTP, that they're overly

25 broad and not precise, and therefore, as I've objected in the past, they

Page 11071

1 lack the proper foundation. Counsel is seeking questions without being

2 specific as to a time frame, although it's rather relevant since this

3 witness worked both prior to and subsequent to specific time periods as

4 incorporated within the indictment.

5 So I would just like the record to reflect that I have an ongoing

6 and would like to be recognised as having a standing objection on the form

7 of question because I truly believe that that is contributing in part to

8 perhaps the answers being offered by the witness. She may be referencing

9 a period in time that counsel is not referencing. In one question

10 particularly he said "his." Perhaps the Court and counsel know that the

11 question was referring to Dr. Stakic. The witness may not. The questions

12 should be specific as they have been in the past.

13 That's my objection, and I'm grateful that the Court has given me

14 an opportunity to be heard on that.

15 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: The Prosecution may proceed, please.

16 MR. KOUMJIAN:

17 Q. Madam, in fact, the truth is that Mr. Drljaca was frequently in

18 the office of Dr. Stakic in 1992; correct?

19 A. No. Not frequently. Once, I said. Once.

20 Q. Madam, it was part of your job to call the members of the Crisis

21 Staff and inform them of meetings; correct?

22 A. No. It was not part of my job to call the members of the Crisis

23 Staff. And they, for that matter, did not meet anywhere in my vicinity.

24 They would meet in the basement, in the rooms which used to house the

25 centre for alerting people. And that's what I heard, and I did not have

Page 11072

1 any need to go down there.

2 Q. Madam, would you call Simo Drljaca for Milomir Stakic?

3 A. If the president had asked me to do that, I would have.

4 Q. Okay. I'm sorry. What I'm asking you is did you in 1992 call

5 Simo Drljaca at the request of Milomir Stakic?

6 A. No, I didn't call him.

7 Q. Madam, in 1992, did you see Radmilo Zeljaja in the office of

8 Dr. Stakic?

9 A. I didn't see him.

10 Q. Did you see Colonels Arsic or Pero Colic in the office of the

11 Dr. Stakic?

12 A. No. In that period of time that you are referring to, no.

13 Q. What period of time, if any, did you see Colonels Arsic and Colic

14 in the office of Dr. Stakic?

15 A. I saw Colic in those rooms, but I didn't go to see Stakic. I saw

16 Colic and Arsic, and that was in 1995, but not to see Dr. Stakic.

17 Q. As part of your duties, did you keep the agenda of Dr. Stakic?

18 A. No. No, I did not keep the agenda of his meetings.

19 Q. Was it part of your duties to know where Dr. Stakic was during the

20 day?

21 A. Dr. Stakic would go out and would tell me, "I am here or there,"

22 or he would tell me, "I'm coming back in an hour," but it was not my duty

23 to know where he was.

24 Q. Who would come -- who would Dr. Stakic go out with? Did you ever

25 see him going out with other people?

Page 11073

1 A. What do you mean when you say "going out"? You mean outside the

2 working hours? I don't know, after the working hours, where he went and

3 who with. I didn't move about a lot, and my circumstances in the family

4 were such that I waited for the working day to be over, for me to go home.

5 I didn't talk about it, and maybe you could take these circumstances into

6 consideration.

7 Q. My question is: On any occasion did you see Dr. Stakic leaving

8 the office or see him outside the office, whether from your desk or when

9 you were in the corridor or when you were going to lunch or leaving work,

10 in the presence of other individuals?

11 A. I could see him in the corridor, nowhere else, with other people

12 working in the administrative bodies.

13 Q. What other people would you see Dr. Stakic with?

14 MR. OSTOJIC: Objection, Your Honour. May I have a time frame at

15 least to know what period counsel is referring to and perhaps even a year?

16 MR. KOUMJIAN: Well, Your Honour --

17 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Sustained.

18 MR. KOUMJIAN:

19 Q. In 1992, what other individuals did you see Dr. Stakic with?

20 A. You asked me about the times when he left his office, in that

21 sense, but that is only when he opens the door and comes across somebody

22 in front of his door, because I didn't follow him anywhere outside his

23 office.

24 Q. So, madam, let me understand how well you know Dr. Stakic. On

25 your examination earlier, you indicated, am I correct, that you have a

Page 11074

1 very good understanding of the character of Dr. Stakic? Is that true?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Now, if I understand you, you sat at your desk outside his office,

4 you didn't listen to any of the conversations that took place inside his

5 office, you never saw him out of work and only saw him passing by; is that

6 correct?

7 A. Correct. When he was passing by, there were people waiting for

8 him, clients, he was very polite to them. Or when somebody asked for him,

9 he would receive them. And all of that said to me that he was a kind and

10 polite person who communicated nicely with people.

11 Q. Do you remember when Radoslav Brdjanin came to Prijedor in 1992?

12 A. No.

13 Q. Let me try to remind you. Do you remember when Stojan Zupljanin

14 and Radoslav Brdjanin came to Prijedor in July 1992?

15 A. Now I say yes, because you didn't mention Zupljanin at first. You

16 just said Brdjanin. That's why I said no. And yes, Zupljanin did come in

17 July 1992.

18 MR. LUKIC: Your Honour, objection after the answer. Can counsel

19 show the witness that Mr. Brdjanin and Mr. Zupljanin came together to

20 Prijedor? Because until now, we didn't know for the fact that they were

21 together on that day. And other witnesses testified that it was only

22 Zupljanin, just Zupljanin, not Brdjanin. That's what we know. Perhaps

23 I'm wrong.

24 MR. KOUMJIAN: If I can respond.

25 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Please take this into account, and I would

Page 11075

1 immediately have some answer, but it's not for me to react now. Please

2 proceed.

3 MR. KOUMJIAN:

4 Q. Did you know who Radoslav Brdjanin was?

5 A. I know that he lived in Banja Luka and -- no. I can't be sure. I

6 don't know.

7 Q. Did Dr. Stakic receive Mr. Zupljanin in his office on that

8 occasion in July of 1992?

9 A. They were not in the office. The meeting, I was told, was in the

10 big conference room. So it's not in the part where we worked. You had to

11 go, take a different way to get there. So I didn't know who was at the

12 meeting, but in any case, Zupljanin did not come to Stakic's office or

13 anybody else at the time, for that matter.

14 Q. Wasn't it part of your duties to help prepare for a visit like

15 that, such as calling other individuals to appear, to receive

16 Mr. Zupljanin?

17 A. No.

18 Q. Madam, did you -- was it part of your duties to prepare for the

19 visit of foreign journalists to Prijedor in August of 1992?

20 A. No.

21 Q. Did you arrange for the interpreter to come -- an interpreter to

22 come to the Municipal Assembly building in August of 1992 when Penny

23 Marshall, Ed Vulliamy, and another foreign journalist came to Prijedor and

24 visited the Omarska and Trnopolje camps?

25 A. I didn't call a meeting, but the lady who interpreted, I called

Page 11076

1 her subsequently because somebody came from the big conference room and

2 told me Mr. Drljaca asked for Nada to be here to interpret from English.

3 Q. Who else did you call to come to that meeting?

4 A. Nobody else. It was not my duty to call anybody.

5 Q. Well, if you know, whose duty was it to arrange for meetings of

6 Dr. Stakic to call other individuals who were invited to meetings with

7 Dr. Stakic in the Municipal Assembly building?

8 A. It was Zupljanin who arrived and it was nobody else but somebody

9 from the MUP.

10 Q. Well, Mr. Zupljanin is from Banja Luka and Dr. Stakic was the

11 president of the Municipal Assembly of Prijedor; is that correct?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Ma'am, you testified about Dr. Stakic's good relations and

14 treatment of non-Serbs. Can you tell me now the names of any Muslims or

15 Croats that were invited by Dr. Stakic to his office after June, from June

16 1st through the end of 1992?

17 A. Muslims that Dr. Stakic called. Can you please repeat the

18 question? I'm not sure I understood you correctly.

19 Q. Did Dr. Stakic ask you to call any Muslims or Croats after June 1,

20 1992, to come meet with him?

21 A. No. The answer is no.

22 Q. You talked about -- excuse me. You talked about the correct

23 relationship between Professor Cehajic and Dr. Stakic and that from all of

24 the interactions you observed they appeared to be on good terms; is that

25 correct?

Page 11077

1 A. Yes, correct.

2 Q. Do you recall in January of 1992 the declaration of a -- this is

3 before the takeover, but the declaration of a Serbian municipality?

4 A. No.

5 Q. Let me --

6 A. Excuse me.

7 Q. Okay. I'll try to remind you, because I realise it's been a long

8 time ago and perhaps the question could confuse you for a moment. Is it

9 -- do you recall now that the SDS party formed their own government before

10 the takeover and Dr. Stakic was named the president but the government of

11 -- this is before the takeover -- the government of Professor Cehajic

12 continued to operate?

13 A. No. I've never heard of this before. This is the first time I

14 hear about it now.

15 Q. Okay. I'll try just once more, because perhaps -- I know it's

16 been a long time ago.

17 Do you recall the declaration of a Serbian Assembly of Prijedor in

18 which Dr. Stakic was appointed the president? Do you recall Professor

19 Cehajic congratulating him on obtaining that position?

20 A. No.

21 Q. Madam, would it -- I'm going to read a portion of S47A. It's a

22 Kozarski Vjesnik article from the 28th of April 1994. Please don't

23 concern yourself with the number. I'm giving the number so Mr. Lukic can

24 follow, and the Judges. Excuse me; Mr. Ostojic. I don't want to forget

25 him.

Page 11078

1 In this article, ma'am, I'm quoting at the end of the third

2 paragraph, it quotes Dr. Stakic, Milomir Stakic, as saying: "On direction

3 of the central office of the SDS, we formed the Serbian Assembly of

4 Prijedor and I became chairman. When I arrived to work the next day, the

5 then chairman of the joint Assembly, Muhamed Cehajic, greeted me with the

6 following words: 'Hello colleague. Now we are both chairmen, and I

7 congratulate you from all my heart and wish you success.'"

8 I'm not asking you if you remember that, but is what I just read,

9 the quotation from Professor Cehajic, consistent with what you observed

10 about how he treated Dr. Stakic?

11 A. Well, yes, it is consistent. They worked together. They

12 cooperated. If that really happened, whether it did or not, I don't know.

13 Q. The article goes on to quote Dr. Stakic as saying: "But in spite

14 of his smile, I knew what was behind these words and what they are

15 planning to do to us."

16 Did Dr. Stakic ever express to you his belief that Professor

17 Cehajic was being deceptive in acting friendly to him and really was

18 planning on doing evil to the Serbian people of Prijedor?

19 A. No. Stakic never told me anything connected with non-Serbian

20 population, and especially Cehajic, because this is the relationship we

21 had, and the president did not have to share his opinions with me.

22 Q. Having worked directly with Professor Cehajic for almost a year

23 and a half, were you concerned with his fate in 1992?

24 A. I was very sorry about his fate as a human being. Later on, I'd

25 heard that he was gone, that he was no longer amongst us.

Page 11079

1 Q. In the summer of 1992, out of these human feelings, did you ever

2 ask Dr. Stakic about Professor Cehajic?

3 A. No, I never asked.

4 Q. After the takeover of Prijedor and removal of Professor Cehajic

5 from the position he was elected to, did Dr. Stakic ever talk about

6 Professor Cehajic?

7 A. About Professor Cehajic, no.

8 Q. Madam, when you went to work in the summer of 1992, would you see

9 the SUP building on your way into or out of work?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Did you see long lines of women standing outside of that building?

12 A. Women and also men.

13 Q. Did you know the ethnicity of those individuals?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And what was the ethnicity of those individuals?

16 A. Muslim and Croat.

17 Q. Was that something that everyone who worked in the Municipal

18 Assembly building would have been aware of, that there were long lines of

19 women and others in front of the SUP building all during the summer of

20 1992?

21 A. That I really don't know. They could have.

22 Q. Can you tell us a little bit about the working day of Dr. Stakic

23 in 1992? What did he do?

24 MR. OSTOJIC: I just object to the form of the question. Is it

25 during his time when he was the vice-president of the Municipal Assembly

Page 11080

1 or during the time he was president of the Municipal Assembly or both or

2 neither?

3 MR. KOUMJIAN:

4 Q. Ma'am, during the time --

5 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: When the Defence counsel insists on this policy,

6 we will take the same measures in the future also based on the questions

7 put to the witness by the Defence. So may I ask you to break down the

8 question and split it up into certain periods of time.

9 MR. KOUMJIAN:

10 Q. After the takeover of the municipality of Prijedor until, let's

11 say, the end of September 1992, so throughout the spring and summer of

12 1992 after the takeover, when Dr. Stakic took over the position and office

13 of Professor Cehajic, can you tell us what his workday was like?

14 A. In the summer of 1992. I'm trying to read this. This is a long

15 question.

16 MR. LUKIC: Is it the office of Professor Cehajic or the office of

17 the Municipal Assembly?

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You're mentioning Cehajic --

19 MR. LUKIC: I don't know what's the point. Is there any other

20 office outside the municipal building or it's the same office?

21 MR. KOUMJIAN:

22 Q. Madam, do you know what office Professor Cehajic had before the

23 takeover?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Do you know who took that office?

Page 11081

1 A. Dr. Stakic took the office of the president of Assembly.

2 Q. Thank you. And madam, if you're ever confused with my question,

3 please ask me and I'll clarify it, as I believe you've done on several

4 occasions.

5 Can you tell us what you know about the workday of Dr. Stakic from

6 the 30th of April, 1992, through the end of September.

7 A. What was his workday like. I'd see him when he came to the

8 office. We'd greet each other. He'd go to his office. If needed, he

9 would ask me to call someone, or if there was someone waiting for him

10 already, then he would just usher the person into his office himself. The

11 rest of the day, when there were phone calls to the president, that's when

12 I'd go into the office.

13 Q. Thank you.

14 A. And the whole of the working day would -- should I continue?

15 Q. Yes, please. We're interested in any information you can give

16 us.

17 A. The whole working day could be summed up in this communication by

18 telephone. Of course this very much depended on whether there were any

19 callers who were already there or some who came later or whatever.

20 Q. Can you tell us what time normally Dr. Stakic would arrive at and

21 leave the office?

22 A. As Dr. Stakic travelled, you can say that he was never late for

23 work. Maybe a minute or two, as far as I remember, because it didn't

24 really matter to me. I wasn't really watching closely when Dr. Stakic

25 would arrive to work, whether he was punctual or not. Someone might have

Page 11082

1 detained him outside in the street, talking to him.

2 So your question was when did he come to work? You could say he

3 was punctual.

4 Q. Yes. Could you give us the hours? I'm not familiar what the

5 normal working hours were when he would come and leave. Was it 7.00 a.m.,

6 8.00 a.m.? Can you explain?

7 A. Our working hours were between 8.00 and 2.00, 1400 hours.

8 Q. Thank you. Madam, you talked about -- let me ask you. Did

9 Dr. Stakic have a driver?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Do you know where Dr. Stakic would go? Would he tell you where he

12 was going when he was out of the office?

13 A. No. No.

14 Q. Would he leave word with you as to when he would return?

15 A. Yes. He'd say, "I'll be back right away, in half an hour," that

16 sort of thing.

17 Q. Do you recall Dr. Stakic travelling to Banja Luka?

18 A. No.

19 Q. Did Dr. Stakic call individuals in Banja Luka that you recall?

20 A. I don't remember.

21 Q. Do you remember phone calls to Mr. Brdjanin, for example?

22 A. No.

23 Q. Prijedor municipality consists of a number of different villages,

24 settlements, correct, and the big town.

25 A. Yes.

Page 11083

1 Q. Did Dr. Stakic visit all of the areas or other areas of Prijedor

2 besides the town?

3 A. Not to my knowledge, but I don't know.

4 Q. Where did Dr. Stakic live throughout 1992 - I was going from

5 January until the end of 1992 - to the best of your knowledge? And if

6 there is a distinction, if it changed after the takeover, please let us

7 know.

8 A. When Dr. Stakic was the vice-president, he would travel from

9 Omarska, and then for a while after the takeover, but I couldn't specify

10 the period. I don't know.

11 Q. And what happened after he stopped travelling from Omarska? Do

12 you know where he was living then?

13 A. He lived in Prijedor.

14 Q. In his automobile, did he have any means of communication, to your

15 knowledge? Was there any type of radio or mobile telephone or -- or,

16 like, police radio?

17 A. I never went into his car, but if I may say, I was never inside an

18 official car during all of my time working for the municipality. I had my

19 reasons for that.

20 Q. Did you have phone numbers where you could reach Dr. Stakic when

21 he was not in the office?

22 A. Yes, but that was only the private number at home.

23 Q. Did Dr. Stakic wear a gun?

24 A. Not that I saw.

25 Q. Would you remember if you ever saw him wearing a gun?

Page 11084

1 A. I would remember, yes. He could have carried a gun in his bag

2 without my seeing it.

3 Q. Did Dr. Stakic wear a uniform? Let me be more precise: Did he

4 wear a camouflage uniform like a military-type uniform? Either camouflage

5 or olive-grey. I'm sorry. I'm just trying to be as precise as possible.

6 A. Thank you. Yes, he did, but only on festive occasions. For

7 example, when fresh recruits were being sent off to the army, there'd be a

8 festivity there and he'd wear a uniform.

9 MR. OSTOJIC: If I may just object to the interpretation, for the

10 record, Your Honour. It's not accurate that it's festive occasion, it's

11 more ceremonial, but we don't need to dispute that now; just so it's noted

12 in the record.

13 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: May I ask the booth the correct --

14 THE INTERPRETER: We agree with Mr. Ostojic, yes.

15 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Thank you for this clarification, Mr. Ostojic.

16 Please proceed.

17 MR. KOUMJIAN: Your Honour, this would be a good time to break, if

18 Your Honour wants to.

19 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: The trial then stays adjourned until tomorrow,

20 but before we take the break, I have to tell you, and I have to currently

21 ask you not to contact any of the parties, be it the Prosecution or any

22 member of the Defence team, or in case you may meet another witness here

23 in The Hague, please do not discuss with anybody about that what you have

24 testified today, and don't discuss the issues which may be relevant for

25 your future testimony.

Page 11085

1 Did you understand this? Thank you.

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] [No translation]

3 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: The trial then stands adjourned until tomorrow,

4 9.00.

5 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 4.28 p.m.,

6 to be reconvened on Friday, the 24th day of January,

7 2003, at 9.00 a.m.

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