1 Monday, 3 February 2003
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.02 a.m.
5 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: A very good morning to everybody. Please be
7 Can we hear the case, please.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning. This is Case Number IT-97-24-T, the
9 Prosecutor versus Milomir Stakic.
10 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: And the appearances.
11 MR. KOUMJIAN: Good morning, Your Honours. Nicholas Koumjian with
12 Ruth Karper for the Prosecution.
13 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Thank you. Defence.
14 MR. LUKIC: Good morning, Your Honours, Branko Lukic, John
15 Ostojic, and Danilo Cirkovic for the Defence.
16 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: May I ask, I received the amended proffer
17 related to Defence Witness 053. So therefore, I take it we will start
18 with this witness. And any protective measures?
19 MR. LUKIC: Yes, Your Honour. We start with this witness, and no
20 protective measures.
21 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: I can see no other matters to be discussed
22 immediately. So may I ask the usher to escort the witness into the
24 In the meantime, could the Defence please indicate the following
25 order after having heard number 053. What will be the calling order for
1 the week?
2 MR. LUKIC: The next one is 079, and we don't have numbers for the
3 rest. So we'll give it to you on the break because they are not here
4 yet. We have only two witnesses.
5 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Yes. If you could inform us immediately after
6 the first break.
7 MR. LUKIC: Thank you.
8 [The witness entered court]
9 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Good morning, Mr. Marjanovic. Can you hear me
10 in a language you understand?
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I can.
12 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Could you then please be so kind and give us
13 your solemn declaration.
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak
15 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
16 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Thank you. Please take your seat.
17 You are a witness called by the Defence. Mr. Lukic, please.
18 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
19 WITNESS: OSTOJA MARJANOVIC
20 [Witness answered through interpreter]
21 Examined by Mr. Lukic:
22 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Marjanovic.
23 A. Good morning.
24 Q. For the record, my name is Branko Lukic. Together with Mr. John
25 Ostojic and Danilo Cirkovic, I represent Dr. Stakic before the Tribunal in
1 The Hague. Would you please be so kind and also for the record state your
3 A. My name is Ostoja Marjanovic. My father's name is Nikola. I was
4 born on the 17th of February, 1942, in Prijedor.
5 Q. Where do you currently reside?
6 A. I currently reside in Prijedor.
7 Q. Where did you reside between 1991 and 1996?
8 A. I lived in the town in Dzemala Bijedica Street. Currently the
9 name of this street is Majora Tepica Street.
10 Q. What is your profession, Mr. Marjanovic?
11 A. I graduated in mining, so I am a mining engineer. I was over 30
12 years of experience in the field.
13 Q. When did you graduate from the university, and where was that?
14 A. I graduated in 1969 in Belgrade. And I returned to the Ljubija
15 mine in Prijedor where I spent all my working life until this very day.
16 Q. Can you please give us some information about your career in the
17 iron mine -- iron ore mine in Ljubija from the day you started working
18 until the moment you stopped working in the mine.
19 A. I'm going to tell you briefly everything I did from 1997 -- 1970.
20 I started as a shift leader. Then I started working on the Omarska
21 project between 1974 and 1979. In 1979 I became the technical director of
22 the central mine, that is one segment of the Ljubija mine. That's where I
23 spent five years. Between 1985 and 1989, I worked as the director of the
24 development sector in the Ljubija mine. And then in 1990, I applied for
25 the position of the CEO of the Ljubija mine, and I was appointed on the
1 1st of February, 1991.
2 Q. Were you ever a member of the SDS?
3 A. Yes. I was a member of the SDS from the -- October of 1983 until
4 1st August, 1994. And I also at the time held the position of the
5 vice-president of the Executive Board of the Municipal Assembly of
6 Prijedor. That was a volunteer position. I apologise.
7 Q. Were you a member of a committee or a board or a commission at the
9 A. Yes, I was. I was appointed to the committee on information or
10 propaganda. I don't know what the name of that committee was. I remember
11 we had one unsuccessful meeting because I did not agree with the concept
12 put forth by the president of that committee. I believe that his name was
13 Kantar. And after that, I was never invited to any of the meetings of
14 that committee.
15 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Please, Prosecution.
16 MR. KOUMJIAN: Perhaps -- Mr. Cirkovic is pointing it out that the
17 witness -- the translation was the witness was a member of SDS October
18 1983. I don't know if counsel wants to clarify that.
19 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: I think the entire question should be repeated,
20 also the next sentence is difficult to understand, or the next two
22 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
23 Q. Mr. Marjanovic, sometimes it happens that things are not recorded
24 in the transcript or are omitted from the transcript. So I would kindly
25 ask you to slow down a little, relax.
1 Can you please repeat the dates, that is the time period during
2 which you were a member of the SDS.
3 A. I apologise. I will tell you about my political engagement. Even
4 before that time, and I believe that you will then be able to understand
5 the confusion that has arisen. I was a member of the League of Communists
6 until 1988. Then I left the ranks of that party of my own will. I was
7 not a member of any party because at that time, the parties that were
8 formed upheld the concept that I was not in favour of.
9 I was a member of the SDS from October 1993 until the 1st of
10 August, 1994. During that period of time, I was a member of the committee
11 on information or propaganda. I really don't remember its exact title.
12 Only one meeting of that committee was held, that is to say, I attended
13 only one meeting of that committee. I did not agree with the concept of
14 the work of that committee. And after that, I was never invited to any of
15 the meetings of that committee.
16 Q. It is also unclear, what was your position?
17 Sorry. It was also unclear, what was your position as a
19 A. I was in the position of the vice-president of the Executive Board
20 of the Municipal Assembly of Prijedor. And that was from October 1993
21 until the 1st of August, 1994. I was a vice-president of the Executive
22 Board, and this was a voluntary position.
23 Q. During that period of time, were you also a member of the armed
24 forces of Republika Srpska?
25 A. On the 1st of November, 1992, I volunteered and joined the air
1 force of Republika Srpska. And I worked in the air force until 1996. I
2 think that it is exceptionally important for me to explain to you that
3 during this period of time, I was also in the position of the CEO of the
4 iron ore mine, and that was throughout all this period, save for the time
5 that I spent in the Executive Board.
6 Q. Were you in the army? And when you were in the army, were you
7 also in the position of the CEO of the Ljubija mine?
8 A. Yes. This is exactly what I've just said. I've told you that
9 besides being a member of the air force, I continued holding the position
10 of the CEO of the Ljubija mine, and that I did that throughout the entire
11 period save for the period of time that I spent in the position of the
12 vice-president of the Executive Board.
13 Q. The air force of Republika Srpska, and when you were there, what
14 was your duty? What tasks did you have and what duties did you discharge
15 in the air force of Republika Srpska?
16 A. I'm a sports pilot, and the aircraft that I flew on was the
17 aircraft of the sports club that existed in Prijedor. They are two-seater
18 airplanes with the strength of the engine of 220 horsepower. When I
19 joined the air force, I was charged with looking after these aircraft in
20 Prijedor and to be engaged in the civilian part of the organisation of the
21 newly established air force base in Mahovljani. That is some 20
22 kilometres away from Banja Luka. And the civilians' duties consisted of
23 the following: I organised the maintenance of the vehicles there -- not
24 the aircraft but the vehicles. Also to organise the food for the people,
25 to organise the monitored [indiscernable], bearing in mind the huge rate
1 of inflation that prevailed at that time. I believe I have given you a
2 good enough explanation of that.
3 Q. Yes, you did indeed. Thank you.
4 Can you also tell us, please, what was your ethnic background?
5 How did you declare yourself during the last census in 1991 and before
7 A. If I remember it well, there was a census in 1971, and then
8 another one in 1991. I declared myself as a Yugoslav.
9 Q. After the personal data, we are now going to move on to the area
10 for which you have been called as a witness. We would kindly ask you to
11 tell us what you know about the period before the conflict, during the
12 conflict, and after the conflict.
13 I would now kindly ask you to focus on the period before April
14 1992. Are you aware of the fact that the transmitter on Kozara was taken
15 over and who was it who took it over? This was the transmitter that
16 transmitted a TV signal for the area of Prijedor.
17 A. The transmitter on Kozara, in addition to the tower that
18 transmitted TV signals also contained some military equipment, some air
19 force military equipment. As far as I know, from what I heard in
20 conversations with citizens of Prijedor, the tower was taken over by the
22 Q. After the takeover of this tower, could you watch TV Sarajevo?
23 A. No, we couldn't watch any of the programmes from TV Sarajevo. We
24 received information -- most of our information we received from radio and
25 television Zagreb.
1 Q. So it was possible to follow the programmes of Zagreb TV?
2 A. Yes. Yes. We could do it. All the citizens who wanted to be
3 informed could direct their antennas towards Sljeme mountain, and they
4 could easily follow all the channels of Zagreb TV.
5 Q. In late 1991, did you set up some sort of a movement? Were you at
6 the head of some sort of a movement?
7 A. Bearing in mind everything that was going on in the territory of
8 the former Yugoslavia, I thought that it was my duty and my obligation to
9 try and work on the reconciliation of people, of neighbours of different
10 ethnic backgrounds. Already at the time, one could feel exceptionally
11 strong tensions. And already at the time, there was a division among
12 people on ethnic grounds.
13 I invited respectable representatives of various ethnic
14 backgrounds, doctors, artists, workers. I invited them all to the
15 management building of Ljubija, and I proposed to them that we should form
16 a peace movement. This received a lot of support, and we appointed
17 Dr. Eso Sadikovic as the leader of that movement. We held a few meetings
18 in Prijedor. And at those meetings, people tried to alleviate those
19 tensions, to reduce them. And to prevent the things that one could feel
20 would happen eventually.
21 Within that context, I asked party leaders, the leaders of the
22 SDA, the HDZ, and the SDS, to come to Ljubija together with their closest
23 associates, and the intention was for all of us to talk. I was going to
24 ask them to go to the villages with mixed population and to the villages
25 with a majority population of any ethnic background and to show them that
1 there was unity, all that with a view to protecting the people and
2 resources of Prijedor. There were also journalists amongst us.
3 At that moment, I would say there were entrenched positions
4 already felt. They had their hard-core positions that they defended as
5 hard as they could. The president of the HDZ was my colleague from
6 grammar school. I realised that they didn't want to give in. The meeting
7 ended without any visible results. I remember one detail from that
8 meeting which can illustrate the desire for reconciliation. I said that
9 if anything should happen to me, if an accident should occur to me, I told
10 them that it would be my neighbour who would help me sooner than Milosevic
11 in Belgrade. This was published by journalist Nezirevic. I don't know
12 where he is now.
13 At the end of that meeting, I asked my colleague from grammar
14 school to step into my office. We were alone, the two of us. His name
15 was Silvester Saric. I told him -- I asked him, rather, "Why do you
16 strictly adhere to your principles?" And he told me that he went to
17 meetings in Zagreb, and that he simply has to do that. I didn't realise
18 why, why he should maintain this position. I always considered him to be
19 more responsible to the people in Prijedor than to people in Zagreb.
20 Later on, this peace movement assumed a different form and was
21 taken over by Jutel. Jutel was a newly established radio and television
22 station headed by Goran Milic. I believe that it was Goran Milic who was
23 the head of that station. They held a big meeting in Tuzla as far as I
24 can remember. Later on, they organised the peace march, and they headed
25 for Osijek. However, the result of that were a number of incidents and
1 provocations and so on and so forth.
2 What I'm talking about now I saw on television. I did not
3 participate in that movement. Later on, that movement just ceased to
4 exist spontaneously.
5 Q. Did you propose that representatives of the parties address the
6 public through radio or television, and what was their response to this?
7 A. Yes. Yes. I have already mentioned that this meeting was also
8 attended by journalists. They wanted to interview the leading people in
9 these parties, but they did not want to give them interviews. They did
10 appear, or rather speak on Radio Prijedor, however, and there, they mostly
11 advocated their party platforms.
12 Q. Was there a point in time when you organised people to go to the
13 front in Croatia so that they would see what war was like and become aware
14 of its dangers?
15 A. Yes. Excuse me. At that time, war was already raging in Slavonia
16 and Croatia. There was some units from Prijedor in that war theatre, and
17 I organised a bus from the mine to take these leading party figures to the
18 area where war operations were going on. The places across the bridge,
19 when you cross the bridge in Gradiska, there is a river called Strug where
20 a bridge had been destroyed. And next to that bridge, there is a large
21 village or something like that - I no longer recall its name - where the
22 consequences of war operations were evident, and they were terrible. The
23 houses had been burnt down. Everything was destroyed. There were bullet
24 cases lying all around, tools scattered around, agricultural tools, and so
25 on. There weren't many of us. There were around 15 of us.
1 The leading people from the parties did not come. But there were
2 representatives of the Muslim people, the Croatian people, and the Serbian
3 people. I have a piece of information which might be interesting to show
4 that my intention in going there failed. Dedo Crnalic, a great friend of
5 mine, an acquaintance, an eminent sports worker in Prijedor, in a cafe
6 where there were people who later told me this, he said in the presence of
7 these people, he said: "Marjanovic thought he would frighten me if he
8 showed me what was going on in Slavonia." I had expected anything but
9 this from this friend of mine. And to this day, I don't know what led him
10 to form this opinion.
11 Q. Before the 30th of April, 1992, were there any incidents in the
12 municipality of Prijedor?
13 A. No, there weren't any incidents, but it was quite clear to anyone
14 walking about the town going to public places - and by this I mean
15 restaurants, cafes, canteens - there was already a lot of tension among
16 the people. And it was evident that there was division along ethnic
17 lines. There was something malevolent in the area, but I don't recall any
18 incidents. I don't think there were any.
19 Q. Did you perhaps hear about the stopping of military convoys,
20 provocations of the army, the then JNA?
21 A. Yes. We had occasion to watch this on television, and this
22 happened almost everywhere in Croatia, and before that in Slovenia. And
23 then in Bosnia-Herzegovina while the JNA was withdrawing, roads were
24 blocked and there were provocations. This also happened in Prijedor. I
25 think that a tank unit from Pancevo arrived in Prijedor, and there were
1 already individual excesses. I know of some cases where Muslims were
2 displeased by these incidents, rather --
3 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter corrects herself. The Muslims
4 said bad things about these units and called them various names.
5 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
6 Q. Were you a member of the Chamber of Commerce of
8 A. For about two months, after I was appointed -- or rather, two
9 months after I was appointed general director of the Ljubija mine, I was
10 advised by the Chamber of Economy of Bosnia-Herzegovina that I had become
11 a member. I attended a few meetings in Sarajevo. And I attended two or
12 three meetings in Zenica where there was discussion of repairing RMK
13 Zenica, which is a large metallurgy complex in Zenica, in
14 Bosnia-Herzegovina, and Ljubija was part of this large complex.
15 I was able to have discussions on the economy with Mr. Abdic who
16 was delegated by the presidency to take charge of the economy. These were
17 times of great difficulty in economic terms because inflation was very
18 high, and there was no money available. We had a plant exporting clay to
19 Italy. That was an exporter from Rijeka. And at that time, we lost some
20 of our revenue because payments were not flowing smoothly, and this money
21 was simply lost. There was some talk of a loan from Libya amounting to
22 $60 million in order to rescue RMK Zenica. The mine had loans from the
23 Soviet Union amounting to $50 million. We expected funds, and I have
24 information that the first payment of $30 million arrived in
25 Bosnia-Herzegovina; however, not a single dollar reached Prijedor. And
1 subsequent events caused the complete stoppage of the work of this
3 Q. Mr. Marjanovic, for the sake of clarity, you say that your
4 exporter was in Rijeka?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. What republic is Rijeka in?
7 A. Rijeka is in Croatia. It's right below Istria, and it was
8 convenient for us to work with them because we were exporting to Italy,
9 and they were middlemen and in the immediate vicinity of Triest and Geneva
10 where the offices of our buyers were.
11 Q. The impossibility of collecting these payments, did this occur
12 when war broke out in Croatia?
13 A. Evidently, yes. I will try to clarify this further by saying that
14 I instructed the commercial director and the technical director of the
15 mine to go to Triest, but they had to travel by way of Hungary and
16 Slovenia. That is how they reached Triest. And the buyer sent them a
17 certain sum of money so that we could pay the wages of the workers
18 employed in producing the clay that we exported to Italy.
19 Q. At that time, you were at the head of the iron ore mine of
20 Ljubija. Can you explain to us what sort of organisation this was, what
21 its organisational units were, how later on the structure of this company
23 A. Iron ore mines, or rather, the Ljubija iron ore mines, on the 1st
24 of February, 1991, had 4.630 employees. That was on the date when I was
25 appointed general director of the Ljubija mine. I think I should say that
1 the ethnic makeup of the employees in the mine was approximately as
2 follows: About 1.100 Muslims; about 1.100 or 1.200 Croats; and the rest
3 were Serbs. And of course, I was a Yugoslav. The organisation was rather
4 complicated, but I will try to explain it to you.
5 This was a complex organisation of associated labour where there
6 were nine or ten basic associations -- basic organisations of associated
7 labour which operated with their own management and which had all the
8 characteristics of companies. That is, they had their managing director,
9 the company secretary, foremen in the mines, leaders of the economic
10 units, and so on and so forth. I was the president of the management
11 board which consisted of the managing directors of the basic organisations
12 of associated labour.
13 I will try to give you more details. I apologise if I don't
14 remember everything. The basic organisation of the central mines was in
15 Ljubija. The basic organisation of associated labour of the eastern mines
16 was in Busnovi or Tomasica. The basic organisation of associated labour
17 of Omarska was in the Omarska, Lamovita, and Mariska local communes. The
18 basic organisation of associated labour of administration, personnel, and
19 general services. Then there was the maintenance and repair
20 organisation. Then there was the basic organisation of associated labour
21 of providing meals for the canteen. Then there was another basic
22 organisation of mining works and working unit for bookkeeping and other
23 administrative matters.
24 Management system was one of subordination to the general
25 director, that is, the president of the management board via the directors
1 of the basic organisations of associated labour, and then the work units.
2 The work units and the board of management were located in Prijedor in the
3 street that used to be called Mosa Pijada Number 1. That was the
4 headquarters. And the headquarters of the other basic organisation of
5 associated labour were located in the plants.
6 Do you feel that this is sufficient, or should I go into further
8 Q. I will just try to remind you, was the company, or rather the
9 basic organisation of associated labour as it was then Geoistrage, was it
10 part of this organisation?
11 A. Mr. Lukic, I apologise. I forgot to mention not only Geoistrage
12 but also Unametal and Ferox. And I do apologise but it's hard for me to
13 enumerate everything all at once. It may be interesting for me to say
14 where these basic organisations were geographically in relation to the
15 headquarters in Prijedor. Ljubija is about 12 kilometres away. Tomasica,
16 or rather, the eastern mines is about 18 kilometres. Omarska was some 20
17 kilometres away. Unametal was some 5 kilometres away. Maintenance and
18 repair were in the town.
19 Q. I think that all that remains for us to mention is the car
20 servicing organisation of associated labour.
21 A. Yes. But let me also mention that this system existed until the
22 beginning of 1992 when by a decision of the board of management, some of
23 these organisations, Unametal, Ferox, the canteens, and the mining and
24 construction works were separated by a referendum of the employees. But
25 the car servicing unit, the referendum was not -- did not come out in
1 favour of separation. So the central mines, eastern mines, Omarska, and
2 maintenance and repair and the car servicing unit remained.
3 MR. LUKIC: [In English] Would the usher be so kind and show the
4 witness Exhibit Number S15-16, please.
5 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Marjanovic, do you recognise what is on this
7 A. Yes, I do. I do recognise it, yes. This is the administration
8 building of the Omarska mine with the canteen and the service workshop.
9 That's this bigger building.
10 Q. Just a moment, please.
11 What is the building on the left-hand side of the photograph?
12 A. Are you referring to this one?
13 Q. Yes.
14 A. That -- rather, this is the administration building. This one
15 here. And the smaller part is the canteen. And this big building, that
16 is the service workshop. The road arriving from the north in this
17 direction here, that's north, this road leads to the surface excavation
18 site. And here you can see where the sludge accumulated, and this leads
19 to the Medjudja site and the Medjudja sludge disposal area.
20 Q. Let's just clarify something. The road arriving in this complex,
21 does it come from the east? If we look to the left, is that east or
23 A. In my view, it's northeast/east, so it's more east than north.
24 But it's not purely east, strictly east.
25 Q. On the right-hand side of this big building, are there electric
2 A. As I remember, because from 1974 to 1979, I was the leader of the
3 project. There are some underground cables, some above-ground cables, and
4 some posts. And as for these smaller buildings, I don't know what their
5 purpose was. They were part of the complex. For the sake of
6 clarification, Omarska was completed in 1984, and I stopped work on the
7 project in 1979.
8 Q. Although you can't see it on this photo, can you tell us whether
9 in the area of these facilities that is covered by asphalt, are there
10 lighting posts?
11 A. Yes, there are. I'm sure of that. To confirm what I'm saying, I
12 would like to say that flying in a small Piper, I wanted to land there,
13 but I couldn't because of the lighting posts.
14 MR. LUKIC: [In English] Okay, thank you. We won't need the
15 photograph any more.
16 Q. [Interpretation] You said that you were a member of the Chamber of
17 Commerce of Bosnia-Herzegovina during the period before the outbreak of
18 the conflict. Is that correct?
19 A. I've said I was a member of the Chamber of Commerce of
20 Bosnia-Herzegovina. And in 1991, I attended a few meetings. I also
21 attended a few meetings with Mr. Abdic in Zenica. And at the end of 1991
22 and in the beginning of 1992, I did not receive any invitations for any of
23 the meetings. I don't know whether they considered me to be a member of
24 the Chamber of Commerce at the time or not.
25 Q. Some things we absolutely understand because we come from the
1 area. However, there are other participants in this trial, and that's why
2 I may be asking you questions for which you will think that you have
3 already answered them or that you imply things in your previous answers.
4 A. I will say that once again. In 1991, I attended a few meetings,
5 but after that, I no longer received any invitations and I didn't attend
6 any of the meetings of the Chamber of Commerce of Bosnia and Herzegovina
7 after that, after the end of 1991, beginning 1992.
8 Q. You said that Mr. Abdic also participated in these meetings.
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. What party did Mr. Abdic represent?
11 A. Mr. Abdic came to these meetings in Zenica on behalf of the
12 presidency of Bosnia-Herzegovina, and he was a member as far as I know of
13 the SDA. He received a number, a large number of votes in the elections,
14 and bearing in mind the number of votes that he received, he should have
15 been the president of the presidency.
16 Q. I must explain, I'm not dissatisfied with your answer. I'm just
17 waiting for the translation to be over.
18 So, Mr. Abdic was also a member of the presidency of the Republic
19 of Bosnia-Herzegovina?
20 A. Yes. He was a member of the presidency of Bosnia and Herzegovina
21 in charge of economic trends during that period of time in Bosnia and
22 Herzegovina. Since he joined the presidency from a well-known company and
23 a businessman with a reputation, his company name was Agrokomerc and that
24 company was well-known in the former Yugoslavia and all over Europe. I
25 would like to apologise to everybody for sometimes rush, and I especially
1 apologise to the interpreters and to the court reporters for giving them a
2 hard time.
3 Q. You've mention that had in the elections in 1990, Mr. Abdic got a
4 huge number of votes and that he should have, therefore, become the
5 president of the republic.
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Do you know, what actually happened? How come that
8 Mr. Izetbegovic became the president of Bosnia and Herzegovina?
9 A. I only know what I read in the press and what I read as
10 communication of the body in charge of the -- of counting of votes in the
11 elections. According to that, Mr. Abdic received the biggest number of
12 votes, but I really don't know what happened in the SDA among the leaders
13 of the SDA who decided that it would be Izetbegovic who would become the
14 most prominent figure.
15 Q. As the director of the mine, did you report to the government of
16 the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina?
17 A. No. Not to the government. I didn't report to the government.
18 However, we had to intervene very often when we couldn't pay salaries,
19 when there were strikes in the mine in 1991. So we had to intervene with
20 a prime minister. I believe his name was Pero Pehlivan. I had contacts
21 with him on two or three occasions. And I was also received by
22 Mr. Cengic. I was in the delegation of the Ljubija Trade Union. We
23 appealled to his authority and asked him to have a word with the bank of
24 Zenica and asked them to pay for the iron ore that was delivered to
25 Zenica. All the transactions went through that bank.
1 Mr. Hrle was also present at that meeting. He was the president
2 of the trade union of Bosnia and Herzegovina.
3 Q. On page 19, line 16, there is a name Pero. And I believe that you
4 said Pehlivan.
5 A. Correct. Pehlivan.
6 Q. Thank you.
7 In 1991 and in 1992, did you notice -- did you observe that there
8 was a migration of the population, and where were people headed for?
9 A. At the beginning of 1991, this did not occur, and I couldn't see
10 it or feel it. Bearing in mind my role and my position, I did not really
11 pay too much attention to any such events. However, in late 1991, I did
12 see that the families of my friends started leaving. Those were mostly
13 women and children and elderly people.
14 I'm going to give you an example hoping that my friend, whom I'm
15 going to mention, will not hold it against me. Emir Kulenovic was my good
16 friend. We visited each other. And he was the one who sent his family
17 away sometime in late 1991 or early 1992. Eso Tadic left the area in
18 May. He left Prijedor in May, although until then, we were inseparable.
19 He never came to goodbye. I never understood why all this was going on,
20 although I could feel the tensions and I believed that the tensions were
21 the cause of their departure.
22 I also thought at the time that maybe they knew more than I knew.
23 Mr. Emir Kulenovic left Prijedor and Banja Luka with the Borac football.
24 This is a Banja Luka-based football team. They were playing in the finals
25 in Bari in Italy. He never gave the reason for leaving Banja Luka. I
1 can't give you any more information on that because I was not the one who
2 had that many friends, nor was I in the position to observe things at a
3 larger extent.
4 But I know of an incident that took place in a bus headed for
5 Banja Luka. I believe that the police had to intervene, that it stopped
6 the bus and ordered some of the people on the bus who were leaving
7 Prijedor to return to Prijedor, to go back.
8 Q. This incident involving the bus, did that happen before the 30th
9 of April or after the 30th of April, after the takeover?
10 A. I don't know. I can't give you a precise answer. But I didn't
11 mention the fact that my best man, Mirko Drljaca sent his children to
12 Belgrade at the same time. So this was not only the case of Muslims
13 leaving, but also some Serb families, and I suppose there were also Croat
14 families who did the same.
15 Q. In 1991 and 1992, did you notice the arrival of refugees from
17 A. Yes. I apologise. This has reminded me of the year 1995. But
18 after the things that happened to Zec family in Zagreb, Serbian families
19 started returning to Prijedor from Croatia, and they didn't bring any of
20 their property, anything, with them. And they remained in Prijedor after
22 Q. Can you please tell us, now that you have mentioned Zec family,
23 what happened to them? Where is that family from?
24 A. I believe that Zec family is from the vicinity of Prijedor. I
25 believe that the name of the village is Dragotinja or something like
1 that. I don't know the details. I only know what I read in the papers.
2 And I read again two or three years ago the statement of their grown-up
3 children who had survived. And the story was that uniformed people came,
4 took them out of the house. And after that, they never saw their father
5 again. I know that the family was rather well off. They were actually
6 rich. They were a rich, Serb family residing in Zagreb.
7 Q. Do you know that the perpetrators of the crime committed against
8 the Zec family were later on decorated, received some medals?
9 A. No, I'm not aware of that.
10 Q. Did you know Mr. Arsic? I'm not mentioning his ranks because --
11 his rank because the rank changed.
12 A. Yes, I knew him. He was, I believe, in 1990 and 1991 the
13 commander of the garrison of the Yugoslav People's Army in Prijedor. I
14 believe that in late 1991, he was Lieutenant-Colonel, but I'm not sure.
15 And if you will allow me, having said that, I knew him. I had opportunity
16 to attend meetings organised by him in my capacity as a businessman. I
17 believe that he is a native of Serbia. He was from Serbia. He was
18 exceptionally -- I would like to use a word "arrogant," but that is not
19 what would describe him. He was domineering. When he issued orders, he
20 did it in a very domineering tone.
21 At the time that I met him, he was still not in the military. And
22 that is probably -- I believe that the military education turned him into
23 the man that he was. He did not put up with any discussions. He just
24 issued orders, and he expected people to obey his orders and to deliver.
25 Q. When we're talking about him, we also mentioned the sentence which
1 he used to explain to other nonmilitary how things would develop from then
3 A. The sentence was things that he said they would be. That's why I
4 said previously that he didn't put up with discussions. I mean, yes, the
5 discussion was okay, but eventually, he had the last call, and things
6 would be what he decided them to be.
7 Q. Can you describe the process of the distribution of positions in
8 Prijedor Municipality after the multiparty elections in 1990? At what
9 level was that established, at what level was that implemented? Do you
10 know who participated in the discussions on the distribution of positions?
11 A. The SDS, the SDA, and the HDZ won the elections. I believe that
12 the communists also had a small number of seats in the assembly. In
13 conversations with my colleagues, I learned about the issues that you are
14 asking me about. The assembly was convened, and after that, the executive
15 branch of the government had to be established; that is, the Executive
16 Board of the Municipal Assembly of Prijedor.
17 There were secretariats which did the work in the municipality,
18 and the parties proposed their candidates for certain positions. The
19 discussions lasted for a long time. And I know from conversations that
20 Srdjo Srdic participated on part of the SDS in these discussions, that
21 there was also Dr. Milan Kovacevic, and I believe Simo Miskovic, who was
22 the president of the SDS at the time. Whether there were any other people
23 representing the SDS, I don't know.
24 Again, from conversations, I know that Dr. Mujadzic participated
25 on behalf of the SDA, and that -- and I don't know who represented the HDZ
1 in those discussions.
2 MR. LUKIC: [In English] Would it be a convenient time, Your
4 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Indeed, it would.
5 The trial stays adjourned until 10 minutes to 11.00.
6 --- Recess taken at 10.28 a.m.
7 --- On resuming at 10.59 a.m.
8 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Please be seated.
9 The Defence may proceed with the most concrete and most relevant
10 questions immediately, please. Continue.
11 MR. LUKIC: Your Honour, first of all, we have the obligation to
12 tell you the numbers of the coming witnesses for this week.
13 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Yes, please.
14 MR. LUKIC: It's number 079, 066, 070, and 006.
15 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Okay. Thank you for this information. Taking
16 this into account, as mentioned before, we discussed it briefly during the
17 break, if you can concentrate on the relevant questions, relevant for this
18 case, not relevant for the situation in former Yugoslavia. But I think
19 you understand what I want to say by this because of the witness.
20 So please proceed.
21 MR. LUKIC: Thank you.
22 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Marjanovic, you were appointed the CEO of the
23 mine on the 1st of February, 1991, as you've told us. Were there attempts
24 to remove you in 1992 after the 30th of April?
25 A. Yes. There were attempts on the part of some leaders of the SDS.
1 I was not the only target of that. There were a number of company
2 directors who were targeted at the time. Later on, two or three company
3 directors were removed by these people. I remained in my position as the
4 director of the mine, and I don't have any explanation for that. The
5 director of Energopetrol was removed. His name was Radomir Bursac. The
6 director of the post was removed. His name was Marko Pavic. I know about
7 the two of them. If there were any other changes, any other removals from
8 positions, I don't know.
9 Q. At that time, was Mr. Sidjak appointed to any of the leading
11 A. I know Mr. Sidjak. He was a member of the SDS, and he was
12 appointed later on in a later stage as the director of Energopetrol. Some
13 month or two months later, he was arrested for a fraud. They embezzled
14 about 400.000 German marks in one way or another. So these people from
15 the SDS, they did that.
16 Q. After the 30th of April, 1992, did you hear that immediately after
17 that date, there was a murder?
18 A. I think there was a murder in mid-May. I don't know the exact
19 date. This was the murder of a reserve policeman in the Prijedor area at
20 the border of Cereci and Urije, but I've forgotten the man's name.
21 Q. After this murder, did the police take their revenge against the
22 civilian population? Did you hear anything of that sort?
23 A. No. This didn't happen. There was an investigation. I don't
24 know what the result of the investigation was. But at least I think so,
25 things were done by the book. The legal procedure was followed, according
1 to the then-valid legislation of the Municipality of Prijedor and the
2 police rules.
3 Q. Did you hear whether the police killed someone in order to
4 retaliate, to take revenge, for this murder?
5 A. No. I'm sure this didn't happen because since I heard about the
6 murder of this policeman, I would have heard of other events had they
7 occurred in Prijedor. I think there were no incidents of any sort, let
8 alone revenge of this kind.
9 Q. So we have started discussing the period after the 30th of April,
10 1992. Mr. Marjanovic, yesterday, you handed over to us some documents.
11 They have not been translated. And therefore, I would like to ask you to
12 read to us first the document that was read out as an announcement on
13 Radio Prijedor after the takeover of power, and to tell us, first of all,
14 how you came by this document.
15 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Provisionally D56B.
16 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
17 Q. Mr. Marjanovic, is this the document which you identified to us as
18 a document containing the announcement read out on the 30th of April,
19 1992, on Radio Prijedor?
20 A. Yes. This is the document, and it fully corresponds to the text
21 that was read out on Radio Prijedor. And I received this document from
22 the journalist Rajlic who worked in the mine as a journalist and who later
23 went to work in the Kozarski Vjesnik press centre.
24 Q. Would you please tell us when he left the mine in order to work in
25 Kozarski Vjesnik.
1 A. It was probably two or three years before this.
2 Q. When did you receive the document which is before you from
3 Mr. Rajlic?
4 A. On the same day that it was read out on Radio Prijedor.
5 Q. Would you now be so kind as to read this document to us slowly so
6 that all of this will be interpreted and entered into the record.
7 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: May I just for clarification ask you when did
8 you receive this document? You just told us it was the same day. When
9 the same day, morning --
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was on the 30th of April in the
11 course of the day. It was around 11.00 a.m. or 12.00 noon.
12 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Thank you. Please proceed.
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] "To the citizens of the Municipality
14 of Prijedor: A year and a half has already elapsed since the first
15 multiparty elections, and the constitution of a multiparty municipal
16 parliament or assembly and other municipal organs. And we still have a
17 single party and single ethnic government in the municipality.
18 "Due to the fact that the Party of Democratic Action all this time
19 did not wish to share power, either with the winning parties or with the
20 opposition parties, the work of the Municipal Assembly has been blocked,
21 and the work of all other organs of government has been blocked. And
22 because of this, the citizens and peoples of the municipality of Prijedor
23 are living in a state of anarchy, insecurity, poverty, and great fear, and
24 this is not all. The large companies in Prijedor are being intentionally
25 destroyed. The work of all social institutions is being obstructed, as is
1 the work of all public services. The sowing and reaping of crops is being
2 hindered, as are supplies of staple foods for the citizens, while at the
3 same time the public is being misinformed and told that negotiations are
4 underway on sharing power.
5 "The dozens of solutions achieved during negotiations among the
6 three ruling parties have been obstructed by the leadership of the Party
7 of Democratic Action whose leaders, acting through their people in the
8 government organs and financial institutions, are looting the Municipality
9 of Prijedor on a large scale. There have even been attempts to
10 disassemble and take away whole factories from Prijedor and taking them
11 off to other areas. There has been a great deal of blackmail. There have
12 been demands for foreign currency for the Party of Democratic Action and
13 its leaders to be paid so that they would leave individual socially-owned
14 and privately-owned companies alone, because not even the minimum
15 conditions for work have been provided for the companies. The citizens
16 have been left without any means of earning their living. Workers are
17 jobless and are not receiving their wages while old-age pensioners have
18 lost their pensions. And the citizens have lost their savings, their
19 health insurance, as well as legal and physical security, which has all
20 led to the breakdown of life in general of the people in our municipality.
21 "A great deal of tension has been caused in the past 30 days
22 intentionally and for certain purposes, purposes pertaining to a special
23 psychological war. And this has been caused by the organised departure of
24 the Muslim population from Prijedor, especially women and children who
25 have left for Croatia, Slovenia, Austria, and Germany, where they spread
1 lies saying that they were fleeing massacres being prepared for them by
2 the Serbian people. Dozens of buses full of young Muslim men have gone to
3 Austrian centres for military training under the pretext of going to work
4 abroad. This has intensified fear of the imminent war in our
6 "The last straw was on the 29th of April, 1992 when the so-called
7 Ministry of Defence of the Ministry of the Interior of the so-called
8 sovereign Bosnia and Herzegovina, when a dispatch arrived with an order to
9 the municipal secretariat for the interior and the secretariat for
10 national defence as well as the Territorial Defence staff to the effect
11 that in the Prijedor Municipality, they should immediately block
12 communications, military barracks, and military facilities to mount
13 attacks on the JNA, to take away from them weapons and technology, all of
14 which would mean war, death, destruction, and arson in our municipality.
15 "On several occasions, Nijaz Durakovic, the president of the
16 socialist democratic party, has called on his members, the members of his
17 party, to wage a war against Yugoslavia, the regular JNA, and thus, the
18 Serbian people, which is unacceptable for all citizens of goodwill. For
19 all these reasons, we have decided to take over power in the Municipality
20 of Prijedor and, therefore, to take over full responsibility for the
21 peaceful and secure life of all citizens and peoples in our municipality,
22 the protection of their property, the establishment of the rule of law,
23 the organising of the economy, and normal life in the town and in the
24 villages in the area of the municipality.
25 "We wish to tell all the citizens of the Municipality of Prijedor
1 that in our peaceful Kozara area, we must never again experience war and
2 slaughter, burning and destruction, charred homes, screams of terror,
3 which is the aim of the fanatical and slavish rump leadership of
4 Bosnia-Herzegovina. For this reason, we must remain calm, reasonable,
5 continue living and working, and establishing normal life and work, all of
6 which has been disrupted by the single party and single nationality
7 authorities of the Serbian" --
8 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter correct herself, of the Party of
9 Democratic Action.
10 A. "Companies must continue to operate. Communications must be
11 passable and safe. Supplies must be normal because poverty, misery, fear,
12 the brandishing of arms and psychological exhaustion must end. With this
13 end in view, this government is taking over all functions and
14 responsibility for normalising the situation and life in general on the
15 area of our municipality. In this way, we shall make a big contribution
16 to the solution of the crisis in Bosnia and Herzegovina and the
17 negotiations which are underway.
18 "Dear citizens, peaceful, safe, and protected life and property
19 for each individual are the highest values we have been building up for 50
20 years in freedom. Therefore, join us and help us to defend all this and
21 preserve it from all those who wish to push us into war, death, and
22 desolation. For this reason, let us continue working normally in all
23 companies, institutions, organs, public services, and all the other areas
24 where we work and live. We must finally begin to live and work in the
25 freedom and democracy that we have opted for in the multiparty elections.
1 "In Prijedor, on the 30th of April, 1992, the new leadership and
2 government of the Municipality of Prijedor."
3 MR. LUKIC: [In English] I would like the usher to show the
4 witness Exhibit Number D6, please.
5 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Marjanovic, have you ever seen this document
6 before? And if you haven't, say so.
7 A. I have never had an opportunity of seeing this document before.
8 Q. This document is an order which arrived on the 29th of April, 1992
9 through the communications system within the MUP, the Ministry of the
10 Interior. Can you read this silently to yourself, and then tell us
11 whether this might be the dispatch referred to in the announcement we have
12 just read.
13 A. I have heard about this document from my conversations with my
14 associates, and I have even heard that this document happened to fall into
15 the hands of the leadership and the Serbian people. It is my opinion that
16 this is the document referred to in the announcement of the 30th of April,
18 Q. Will you kindly read the date on this dispatch.
19 A. The MUP, the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina, number 10-70, the
20 29th of April, 1992.
21 Q. And who signed it, please.
22 A. The minister of the interior, Alija Delimustafic.
23 Q. At that time, was Mr. Delimustafic actually the minister for the
25 A. Yes, yes, I'm sure he was.
1 Q. As regards the announcement that you have just read out to us, did
2 you hear from the man who gave you this document who was actually behind
3 this announcement? I don't mean behind the dispatch.
4 A. It was the party, the SDS party, that was behind this
5 announcement. And the man who gave me this, the journalist, was also a
6 member of that party.
7 Q. At that time, when the announcement was aired, do you know whether
8 there was the Crisis Staff of the Municipal Assembly of Prijedor?
9 A. No. There wasn't a Crisis Staff.
10 Q. We'll go back to the Crisis Staff later. For the time being, we
11 won't need the document, so can I please ask the usher to take them away.
12 Mr. Marjanovic, immediately after the takeover, did
13 representatives of the MUP come to your company? If they did, what did
14 they tell you about your duties at work?
15 A. In the morning, on the 30th of April, 1992, I was called, I
16 received a call, at 5.00 in the morning, and I was told to come to the
17 administrative building. They didn't tell me why I was supposed to go
18 there. They just told me it was urgent. I went to the administrative
19 building, and I found there some people in uniforms. I didn't know any of
20 them. There were both police uniforms and military uniforms.
21 One of the men asked me if I was the director of the mine. When I
22 introduced myself, he informed me that the SDS had taken over Prijedor and
23 that we should continue working as before, that all the employees should
24 continue working. And they also asked me to be in the corridor, at the
25 entrance, to the company building at 7.00, that is, at the time when the
1 employees were arriving at work.
2 To continue this line of thinking, let me tell you that all the
3 employees came to work normally; however, two of my managers objected to
4 the presence of the police in the corridor. We explained to them what had
5 happened, and then they went to their respective offices. Through my
6 secretary, I informed the production floors in Omarska, Tomasica, Ljubija,
7 and the central workshop and all the others that we have already
8 identified, I informed all of them that there had been a takeover by the
9 SDS and that they should continue working normally.
10 The majority of the employees obeyed that, observed that. The
11 only people who didn't observe that information were the employees of
12 maintenance and repair services. Their director was Esref Crnkic. In the
13 previous period, his office was the place where the meetings of the
14 Executive Board of the SDA used to take place. He was related to the
15 president of the SDA, Mr. Mujadzic.
16 Q. On that day and on the following days, that is, before the
17 outbreak of the conflict, did you dismiss or fire anybody from the
19 A. No, I didn't dismiss anybody. I didn't fire anybody. In order to
20 have an overview of the work force, I asked the directors of all the
21 production floors and services, as well as all the secretaries, to deliver
22 the lists of the employees of those who worked, who were on military
23 training or who were on paid leave. We did that up to the 6th or 7th of
24 May, and then we stopped with that practice.
25 Q. Did anybody after the 30th of April, that is, after the takeover,
1 anybody from the new government order you to fire any of the employees?
2 After the 30th of April, did anybody issue an order to that effect?
3 A. No. No such order was issued. They actually asked for all the
4 employees to remain in their jobs. It was for that reason that I asked my
5 directors to send me the list of employees that I have just mentioned.
6 Q. You have also given us a group of documents which corroborate what
7 you have just told us, the records of the employees who were present at
8 work on any given day.
9 MR. LUKIC: [In English] The documents.
10 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Marjanovic, we're dealing with a number of
11 documents here. Would you kindly give us firstly the date on the top of
12 the document and try to identify it and help us find a document that
13 you're talking about.
14 A. The first document is DPRZ Ljubija/Prijedor. The economic unit at
15 the clay mine of Crna Dolina, the list of employees who were supposed to
16 work on the 4th and the 5th of May, 1992.
17 Q. Just a moment. Let all of us try and find the document.
18 MR. LUKIC: [In English] Can the usher please put the document on
19 the ELMO so the rest can find the same document, please.
20 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: This would be provisional D57B.
21 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
22 Q. Mr. Marjanovic, could you please tell us what this document is all
24 A. The document is the original. Everything is original but the
25 highlighted names of certain persons. And the person who signed this
1 document is Ivo Komljenovic. He was the technical manager of the economic
2 unit. He was a Croat and a neighbour of mine. In mid-1992, he went to
3 Germany together with his family. He stayed there with his brothers and
4 he worked there. Currently, he resides in Zagreb.
5 This document shows the multi-ethnic composition of the work
6 force. Also, the document shows under 5.5 which of the employees were on
7 paid leave. There were a total of four employees on paid leave. This
8 would be my comment of this document.
9 Q. Can you please give us -- put the next document on the ELMO, the
10 next document that you are going to talk about.
11 A. This document arises from the joint functions of the mine. And
12 more precisely, this is the development sector. This is the list of
13 employees who turned up for work on the 4th of May, 1992. The development
14 sector consists of a number of services, and these services are identified
15 here in this document. First of all, there is the geological service on
16 page 1; mining measurements on page 2; investment also on page 2; design
17 on page 3; technology, I believe that it is on the same page; and finally
18 on page 4, organisers.
19 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: On this bundle, we received together this
20 additional fifth page.
21 MR. LUKIC: [In English] Would the usher be so kind and turn the
22 next page, please.
23 Q. [Interpretation] And what is on the last page?
24 A. Common functions, development sector, the list of workers who
25 failed to turn up for work on the 4th of May, 1992. Geological services,
1 three people did not turn up for work because they were on annual leave.
2 Mining measurements --
3 Q. Just a moment, please. Out of the three who did not come to work
4 that day because they were on annual leave, what is the ethnic background
5 of the person under number 1, Marko Iveljic?
6 A. Marko Iveljic is a Croat.
7 Q. What is the ethnic background of the person under number 2,
8 Miroslava Spasovic?
9 A. Miroslava Spasovic under 2 is a Serbian lady.
10 Q. And now under number 3, what is the ethnic background of Alma
12 A. Under number 3, Alma Muranovic is a Muslim lady.
13 Q. Thank you. Can you please continue explaining page number 5 to
15 A. Mining measurements, one person did not come to work, Milan
16 Dragic, who was on military training.
17 Q. Just a moment, please. Who was it who was recorded as being on
18 military exercise or military training?
19 A. Military training was the situation that was recorded when people
20 were mobilised.
21 Q. Why did you then say that they were on military training?
22 A. We were told by the department of defence that people were being
23 sent for military training, and we were supposed to pay them, give them
24 salary, which was later on reimbursed by the military, by the army.
25 Q. Now, the two people from the design department.
1 A. Yes, Mustafa Biscevic under number 1. He called in -- somebody
2 called in and said that he was in Bjeljina and that he was asking either
3 for a paid leave or an annual leave. Under 2, Ilijaz Drobic, he called in
4 and asked whether he was supposed to come to work. He was told that he
5 could take paid leave, and he subsequently called in to say that he was on
6 his way to work, that he would come to work.
7 Q. Can you please tell us, what is the ethnic background of these two
9 A. They are both Muslims.
10 Q. Can you please continue.
11 A. Technology, four men. Simo Karan, military training of the
12 Territorial Defence. Zeljko Mlinar, military drill of the Territorial
13 Defence. Dragomir Vrucinic, military drill of the Yugoslav People's
14 Army. And handwritten addition, Drago Anic, military drill of the
15 Yugoslav People's Army.
16 Q. Kindly read again the names of these people again and tell us
17 their ethnic background.
18 A. Under 1, Simo Karan is a Serb. Under 2, Zeljko Mlinar is a
19 Croat. Under 3, Dragomir Vrucinic is a Serb. As for Drago Anic, I'm not
20 sure whether he is a Serb or a Croat.
21 Q. Thank you.
22 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Before we mark this document provisionally, we
23 can see that -- and no doubt, the first four pages seem to be one
24 document. The fifth page doesn't show on the top of the page the number
25 "5." Could you please tell us, was this one document, or was the fifth
1 page added to the previous document?
2 MR. LUKIC: [In English] If I may assist --
3 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Please let --
4 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
5 Q. Can you please take the document in your hands and look at it.
6 A. This document is an original, and it arrived at my desk in this
7 form. I don't know what the director of the development sector added to
8 this document subsequently, why did he not put the page number on the page
9 containing the list of workers who failed to show up for work. But I
10 believe, and it is my testimony, that the last page of this document is an
11 integral part of the original document.
12 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: So the entire document containing five pages
13 would be provisionally marked D58B. And that we do not have to return to
14 this document, may I just ask, on the fifth page, one can read "Milan
15 Dragic." I know there are a number of persons with the second or the
16 final name Dragic. Do you know by chance a Milovan Dragic? Is it one and
17 the same person or a relative, sibling, to Milan Dragic? Page 5, Rudarsko
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I know Milovan Dragic, but this is
20 not that same person. This person here is a driver in this particular
21 service in the mining measurements and --
22 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Do you know whether or not this Milan Dragic is
23 a relative to Milovan Dragic?
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know.
25 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Thank you for this clarification. Please
1 proceed. If it's -- maybe it's appropriate to have the break now.
2 The trial stays adjourned until 1.30.
3 --- Luncheon recess taken at 11.59 a.m.
4 --- On resuming at 1.35 p.m.
5 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Please be seated.
6 Please, Mr. Lukic, proceed.
7 MR. LUKIC: Thank you.
8 Would the usher be so kind and place another document on the ELMO
9 so we know which one Mr. Marjanovic is talking about.
10 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Is it correct, there's one document, one page
12 MR. LUKIC: Yes, Your Honour.
13 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Because one can see that there had been a
14 document attached to this previously.
15 MR. LUKIC: That was a copy, so we stapled everything together,
16 and probably one is taken off. So Your Honours can look at the original
17 which is in front of Mr. Marjanovic.
18 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: We come back to this later when we discuss the
19 admission into evidence. This would be marked provisionally D59B.
20 Please continue.
21 MR. LUKIC: Thank you once again, Your Honour.
22 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Marjanovic, would you please explain what
23 this is about, this document.
24 A. This document was drawn up on the 4th of May, 1992, by the head of
25 the mining sector, Mr. Ibrahim Pahunovic, a graduate engineer, and the
1 sector is the mining sector. It's a list of employees in the sector and
2 the status on the 30th of April and the 4th of May, 1992.
3 Under number 1 is Ibrahim Paunovic who worked and continued to
4 work until the 4th of May, 1992.
5 Q. Just a moment, please. When you say worked until the 4th of May,
6 1992, does this mean that his employment was terminated on that date, or
7 that he worked on both days, the 30th of April and the 4th of May?
8 A. Here it says clearly under number 1, Ibrahim Paunovic, and this is
9 the report for the 30th of April, 1992, and it says here that he worked,
10 that he was present at work on that date. And then in the next column, it
11 says work on the 4th of May, 1992. Under number 2, Djuric, Ljubomir,
12 Ljubomir Djuric, it says military exercise on the 30th. And then he
13 returned and worked until the 4th of May. Zora Bilbija was on annual
14 leave, and her annual leave continued. Muhamed Mujagic worked and will
15 continue to work. Tinka Knezevic was present at work and will continue to
16 be so.
17 Under number 6, Esad Pasagic on paid leave, and he reported from
18 his paid leave. Semsa Novakovic under number 7 was present at work, and
19 then the next column says annual leave. Mirzeta Halilovic was present on
20 the 30th, and then in the next column it says annual leave. Gordana
21 Manojlovic was on paid leave, and she reported from her paid leave. Cedna
22 Puric was on paid leave, and she reported. She called in. And then in
23 the note, it says: "The following are on paid leave: 1, Esad Pasagic,
24 Gordana Manojlovic, and Cedna Puric." And then it was signed for the
25 mining sector by Ibrahim Paunovic.
1 Q. I apologise, but we shall have to go through this again so that
2 you can tell us the ethnic affiliation of all these persons, the first
3 group of ten employees, then the next group of three, and also the
4 ethnicity of the person who signed this document.
5 A. Under number 1, Ibrahim Paunovic is a Muslim. Number 2, Ljubomir
6 Djuric, a Serb. Number 3, Zora Bilbija, I'm not sure whether she is a
7 Serb or a Croat. Muhamed Mujagic under number 4 is a Muslim. Tinka
8 Knezevic, number 5, a Serb lady. Six, Esad Pasagic, Muslim. Number 7,
9 Semsa Novakovic, a Muslim lady. Number 8, Mirzeta Halilovic, a Muslim
10 lady. Number 9, Gordana Manojlovic, a Serb. Number 10, Cedna Puric, a
12 In the note, numbers 1, 2, and 3, they are all in the above table,
13 but I can repeat. Esad Pasagic is a Muslim. Number 2, Gordana Manojlovic
14 a Serb lady. And number 3, Cedna Puric, a Serb lady. And the signature
15 for the mining sector is a Muslim, Ibrahim Paunovic.
16 Q. Thank you. Can we please go on to the next document. First,
17 would you please put it on the ELMO.
18 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Is this document composed of two pages?
20 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
21 Q. Can you please tell us whether this is a two-page document.
22 A. Yes, it's a two-page document.
23 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: This would be provisionally D60B.
24 MR. LUKIC: [In English] Thank you, Your Honour.
25 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Marjanovic, is this a work plan as to who was
1 supposed to be at work over the next few days?
2 A. This was a report drawn up in the development sector on the 23rd
3 of April, 1992. And it's a list of employees who are to be at work from
4 the 27th of April to the 1st of May, 1992. So that this is actually a
5 plan for the work force for this period in the development sector,
7 Q. Excuse me, but in order to avoid going back again, but as soon as
8 you read out a name, could you please tell us the ethnicity if you know.
9 A. Yes. Geology, number 1, Zvonko Leskur, a Croat. Number 2,
10 Ljubinko Protic, a Serb. Number 3, Ruzica Mrdja, a Serb lady. Dubravko
11 Besic, number 4, a Muslim. Geographical land surveying, Sveto Kovacevic a
12 Serb. Design, Number 6, again, it's clearly visible. Andjelko Lovric, a
13 Croat. Investment construction, Dusan Milosevic, a Serb. And number 8,
14 Mirjana Pijak, I'm not sure what her ethnicity is. Technology: Number 9,
15 Idriz Crnic, a Muslim. Number 10, Marko Begic, a Croat. Number 11,
16 Jozefina Bujic, a Croatian lady. Organisers: 12, Tode Jakouljevic, a
17 Serb. 13, Bahra Kadic, a Muslim lady. 14, Zineta Sahuric, a Muslim
18 lady. 15, Tonka Asdukovic, a Croat lady.
19 Page 2 is a report of the development sector drawn up on the 30th
20 of April, 1992. And it's a list of employees who were present at work on
21 the 30th of April, 1992. Geology --
22 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: I think we need not go through this entire
23 document because the names primarily are repeated. We have just
24 additional names, and it would call for an explanation why on this 30th of
25 April, there were more people at work than planned. If you could, when
1 comparing both documents, give us the explanation of -- this explanation
2 and the additional names. So, for example, under geology, you will find
3 number 5 and 6 in addition. Number 8 -- number 7 in addition.
4 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
5 Q. Mr. Marjanovic, would you please take the document so that you can
6 compare both pages, the previous page containing the plan, and the page we
7 are looking at now, so that you can see which names are the same on both
8 lists. Geology, numbers 5 and 6 have been added.
9 A. It says Zeljko Ljustina, a Croat. And 6, Petar Balaban, a Serb.
10 I assume that they reported to work on that day in spite of the plan.
11 Zeljko Ljustina is a geologist, and Petar Balaban is a driver. I assume
12 that they went to look at the field, the well. Mustafa, a Muslim, Mustafa
13 Dzafic, a Muslim, geodetics, he reported for work I assume because he was
14 to survey the existing excavation sites, and he was a land surveyor. This
15 is done every month.
16 Q. Would you now please take the next document. How many pages does
17 the document on the ELMO have?
18 A. I apologise. This is a three-page document.
19 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Provisionally marked D61B.
20 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
21 Q. Would you please explain what this document is about.
22 A. This document was drawn up in the development sector, and it's a
23 list of employees who will not be working in May.
24 Q. We'll go through it again in the same way. So will you please
25 read the name and tell us the ethnicity and then the reason.
1 A. Geological service: Marko Iveljic, from the 5th of May to the
2 30th of May -- Marko Iveljic who is a Croat, from the 5th of May to the
3 30th of May, annual leave and paid leave for part of the time. Number 2,
4 Branko Glusac, a Serb. From the 5th of May to the 30th of May, paid
5 leave. Miroslava Spasovic, from the 5th of May to the 30th of May -- I
6 apologise. Miroslava Spasovic, a Serb lady, from the 5th of May to the
7 30th of May on annual leave and part of the time on paid leave. Miroslava
8 Batoz, a Serb lady, from the 5th of May to the 30th of May, paid leave.
9 Ranko Cvijic, a Serb, from the 5th of May to the 30th of May, military
11 Milena Tanasic, a Serb lady, and now, the dates are all repeated
12 from the 5th of May to the 30th of May, paid leave. Jasna Gligic, a
13 Croatian lady, from the 5th of May to the 30th of May, paid leave. Pero
14 Balaban, a Serb, from the 5th of May to the 30th of May on paid leave.
15 Branislav Blazic, a Serb, from the 5th of May to the 30th of May on paid
16 leave. Vladimir Razbusek, a Croat, from the 5th of May to the 30th of May
17 on paid leave. Mersija Besirovic a Muslim lady, from the 5th of May to
18 the 30th of May, paid leave. Number 12 Mladena Kesic, from the 5th of May
19 to the 30th of May, paid leave. Svjetlana Sinanovic, a Serb lady, from
20 the 5th of May to the 30th of May, paid leave.
21 14, Stepica Iveljic, a Croat lady, from the 5th of May to the 30th
22 of May, paid leave. 15, Alma Muranovic, a Muslim lady, on sick leave.
23 16, Ante Zunic, a Croat, from the 5th of May until the 30th of May on paid
24 leave. 17, Muhamed Hadzic, a Muslim, from the 5th of May to the 30th May,
25 paid leave. 18, Ljilja Dobras, a Serb lady, from the 5th of May to the
1 30th of May, paid leave. 19, Ahmed Mujagic, a Muslim, from the 5th of May
2 to the 30th of May, paid leave. Number 20, Mugdim Islamovic, a Muslim,
3 from the 5th of May to the 30th of May, paid leave. 21, Bojan Ecim, a
4 Serb, from the 5th of May to the 30th of May, paid leave. 22, Zeljko
5 Ljustina, a Croat, on completion of his task to demolish the bunker, paid
7 I have to clarify this. I mean, the demolition of the bunker.
8 The old Ljubija plant had a bunker for loading ore. And this was made of
9 wood, which was in use until the 1960s. For lack of maintenance, it was
10 in danger of collapsing and falling across the railway tracks of the
11 railway station in Ljubija. That's why it says "on completion of this
13 The investment construction service, 1 --
14 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: May I just interrupt, if the parties agree, we
15 can, I believe, omit to read out the following names. I think we all can
16 agree that we find a list of names composed of all different ethnicities
17 we can find in the third column the dates, the fourth column the reasons
18 why they are not present. It can also be agreed, so it need not be read
19 out save the last three lines on page 3.
20 Prosecution, any objections?
21 MR. KOUMJIAN: No, Your Honour.
22 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Thank you.
23 If you would be so kind and read out on page 3 the last three
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] "Due to the lack of the blueprint
12 Blank pages inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts. Pages 11671 to 11680.
1 paper, especially in the mining design service, but also in other
2 services, the majority of tasks which were started in April could not be
3 completed. The problem persisted in May."
4 The head of the development sector reports on the lack of - I
5 would call it production material for their work. This is the blueprint
6 paper on which land surveying document are printed, the mining plans and
7 similar things. So it says here that the problem is -- predominantly can
8 be felt in the mining design.
9 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
10 Q. Thank you, Mr. Marjanovic.
11 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Before leaving this document, may the original
12 please be shown to the Prosecution and to the Judges.
13 I think we can agree that we have a document before us not signed
14 and bearing no date. Agreed?
15 MR. LUKIC: [In English] Maybe we could ask the witness to explain.
16 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Please.
17 MR. KOUMJIAN: Perhaps I could just note, I think the transcript
18 should reflect the original document shows what I know as White Out. Some
19 names have been corrected with a correction fluid.
20 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: I think before admission into evidence, we have
21 to go through the same procedure we did with the Prosecution document.
22 Whenever there is a doubt, we would need either the original be presented
23 to the Registrar or we have a colour copy from these documents.
24 Once again the question, if you could be so kind and give an
25 explanation why this document doesn't bear a signature and no date.
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was the director of development
2 sector until 1989. And I received this document from my colleagues, from
3 my colleague that I worked with. This document is original, and believe
4 me, I didn't insist on the document being signed by anybody.
5 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: The question is merely based on the fact that
6 other documents that have been read out in the past we found either in
7 part a signature or, another document, a stamp and signature. But here,
8 it's only for the record we can't find a stamp and we can't find a
9 signature. It's the same as we had it in the past with other documents
10 tendered by the Prosecution. But may the document please be handed --
11 given back to the registry. Thank you.
12 So please continue with what shall be the next document.
13 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
14 Q. Mr. Marjanovic --
15 A. The next document.
16 Q. I apologise. Before we continue --
17 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: This would be a three-page document and be
18 provisionally marked D62B. This is a document of the 5th of May with the
19 registration number 45/92. So please proceed.
20 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The document was drawn up in the
22 sector for market and sales on the 5th of May, 1992. Under number 45/92,
23 this is the list of employees who were absent in the month of May of
24 1992. So this is the period between the 1st and the 5th of May, 1992.
25 Organisers: Zoran Denkic [phoen] --
1 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Sorry, can we proceed the same way that there's
2 an agreement that we have a list of names before us, all ethnicities
3 represented, then only one further column given the reasons for the
4 presence or absence. Could you please briefly explain in order to avoid
5 that we read out the entire list of names. For example, we can read
6 Placeni Dopust. What does it mean? It would be the same as previously,
7 that these persons were on paid leave. Correct?
8 If you could please answer and not only nodding, because on the
9 transcript, we can't see it.
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The end of April, May, and later on
11 is the time when there is less and less work in the mine because there was
12 no longer delivery of iron ore to Zenica. At the time, the mine had 4.600
13 employees. And when an employee is on paid leave, that means that the
14 person is sent home and stays home and is paid for the time that he or she
15 is at home.
16 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Okay. Can we agree that it is not necessary to
17 go through the list of all the names?
18 MR. LUKIC: [In English] We don't have any problems with that
19 proposal, only maybe the rest of the reasons for the absence might be
20 explained. And maybe it would be also interesting that there are Muslims
21 under military service, so that's why this these documents --
22 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Okay. When there are additional reasons,
23 please. But then it might be helpful if you can concentrate on these
24 persons, if you have anything additional you regard as of relevance. And
25 no doubt, finally we need the "rekapitulacija" at the end of the document.
1 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
2 Q. Can you please turn to page 2, Mr. Marjanovic. The Prijedor
3 warehouse, under 3, can you please read the name, give us the ethnic
4 background of the person, and the reason of absence.
5 A. Under 3, Hamdija Handzic, a Muslim, military drill, military
7 Q. Number 11.
8 A. 11, Muhamed Delic, Muslim, military drill.
9 Q. At the bottom of this page, we see the warehouse, the incoming
10 goods, warehouse under 2.
11 A. Milorad Zdjelar, a Serb, military drill.
12 Q. Thank you.
13 And can you now read on page 3 the summary.
14 A. The total number of workers in marketing and sales, 112. Annual
15 leave, 3. Paid leave, 24. Military drill, 14. A total number of absent
16 employees, 41.
17 Q. Has this document been signed and certified by a stamp? And is
18 this a stamp of your company?
19 A. This is the stamp of the socially-owned company iron ore mine, the
20 stamp number 5 belonging to this sector, that is, to the head of the
21 sector. And the head of the sector was Nenad Marjanovic who also signed
22 this document.
23 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: And may we then have a look to the left-hand
24 part, to the distribution. Can you tell us what we can read there and
25 please add the name of the corresponding persons.
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] "Sent to:" One copy to the director
2 general, Ostoja Marjanovic. One copy to the payroll. That is the service
3 which dealt with the payment of salaries. There were a number of
4 employees in that service. I can't give you all of their names. One copy
5 to the personnel. In the personnel service, I believe that the head was
6 Munib Catic.
7 The next addressee is director. This was the sector for common
8 affairs. And the director of common affairs was Smail Zahirovic.
9 Q. Can you please give us the ethnic background of that gentleman.
10 A. He was a Muslim. Smail Zahirovic was the director of that
11 service, and he was a Muslim. One copied to all the heads of services
12 within the marketing and sales department, there are several services.
13 There are sales, purchase, there is a warehouse and so on and so forth. I
14 don't know the names of the heads of these services. And finally, files.
15 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Can we conclude D62B.
16 MR. LUKIC: [In English] I just have one more question to
17 Mr. Marjanovic regarding this document.
18 Q. [Interpretation] If you were to sign something, would the stamp be
19 the same? Would it be the same stamp with number 5 next to your name,
20 next to your signature?
21 A. If I was to sign any document, the stamp would bear number 1.
22 Q. Why would the stamp bear number 1?
23 A. The production floors had their own stamps. Sectors had their own
24 stamps, and each of those stamps bore a different number. In the
25 personnel, all the heads and directors of production plants and services
1 were assigned a stamp, and they had to sign for those stamps. According
2 to the book of rules, it was prescribed who is allowed to sign a certain
3 document and what stamp were they supposed to put next to their names.
4 Q. Thank you very much, Mr. Marjanovic.
5 Does this document contain a handwritten page, or is that an
6 entirely different document?
7 A. This one-page document is the list of workers of the department
8 for personnel and legal affairs who were absent on the 4th of May, 1992.
9 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Just for a better understanding, we have
10 received a two-page document, one in handwriting, one in typewriting.
11 MR. LUKIC: [In English] I was confused also, Your Honour, but
12 obviously those are two documents. But we just stapled it that way.
13 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: So they should be severed and treated as two --
14 MR. LUKIC: Yes, Your Honour.
15 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: -- different documents okay. Then the following
16 document would be provisionally marked D63B.
17 Please proceed.
18 MR. LUKIC: Is it necessary, Your Honour, that the previous
19 document is shown to the Prosecution, the original one, and the Court?
20 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: I think we shall go through all the documents
21 later when it comes to the admission in evidence, and let's decide what we
22 need in photocopy and colour copy.
23 Okay, let's continue with the document D63B.
24 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
25 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Marjanovic.
1 A. The list of the employees of the department for legal, personal,
2 and general affairs who were absent from work on the 4th of May, 1992. Of
3 the employees of the department for legal, personal, and general affairs
4 who were supposed to come to work, only Savo Bilbija, a commuter was from
5 Ljeskari was absent. The head of department, Munib Catic.
6 Q. Can you tell us, what is the ethnic background of Mr. Catic.
7 A. He is a Muslim.
8 Q. Has this document been signed and certified?
9 A. It has been certified by the stamp bearing number 1, and it has
10 been signed by Mr. Munib Catic.
11 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Maybe I have misunderstood you, just for
12 clarification immediately, this stamp bears the number 1. Wouldn't it be
13 for you to sign a document bearing the stamp number 1?
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The department for legal, personal,
15 and general affairs by its nature deals with all the legal affairs, and
16 this is the same stamp because I receive legal instruction from this
17 department, from Mr. Catic, and that is why he has the right to use this
18 stamp bearing number 1. The stamp actually is in his custody. He is the
19 one looking after that stamp.
20 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: So it wouldn't be mandatory that when we find
21 your signature or another person's signature, that it would be combined
22 with stamp 1 or vice versa, when we find stamp number 1, different persons
23 could sign with this stamp. Correct?
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Only the legal department which was
25 my advisor service for all the legal affairs is in charge of stamp number
1 1. I never signed a document without that document being first initialled
2 by him, so it is Mr. Munib Catic who had the right to use this stamp.
3 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Thank you for this clarification. Let's move to
4 the next document.
5 MR. LUKIC: [In English] Your Honour, I think that the witness said
6 something what's not in the transcript. I would like to ask him.
7 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Please.
8 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
9 Q. Did you say that the document which determines the use of stamps
10 exists in your former company? So there is a regulation on the use of
12 A. In the legal affairs department, there is a document on the use of
13 stamps by all the heads of departments and production plants. And that
14 document also lists the stamp numbers.
15 Q. Thank you. Can you please show us the following document. And
16 can you also explain its contents. Obviously, this is a handwritten
18 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: This would be provisionally, that we are not
19 confused, D64B.
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This one-page document is a report
21 provided by two different sectors or departments. One is the finance
22 department absent on the 4th of May, 1992. Under 1, Mirjana Jelisavac,
24 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
25 Q. Can you please give us the ethnic background of all the persons.
1 A. Mirjana Jelisavac, a Serb lady, sick. Beisa Puskar, a Muslim
2 lady, sick. Esma Sarajlic, a Muslim lady, death in the family. Milan
3 Bundalo, a Serb, a sick child. Signed by Mirjana Supic, a Croat lady.
4 The department for economics and organisation. Absent on the 4th of May,
5 1992, Nusreta Talundzic, a Muslim lady. Signed by Mirjana Dejanovic, a
6 Serb lady.
7 Q. This document has not certified by any stamp. It has been signed,
9 A. Yes, you're right, it hasn't been certified by stamps, but it has
10 been signed by the respective heads of the departments. And I'm sure that
11 these are their signatures.
12 Q. Thank you. I believe that we have now reached the last document.
13 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: I still have one in front of me, on Balaban
14 Slobodan in handwriting. This would be the next one.
15 MR. LUKIC: [In English] The last one, yes. The next one and the
16 last one.
17 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: This would be composed of one, two, three, four,
18 five pages. Correct?
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is a five-page document. And
20 the first page is the enclosure.
21 THE INTERPRETER: This is a cover letter, interpreter's
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] And the addressee is Slobodan
25 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: This would be D65B. If we could limit ourself
1 to the first page, agreeing that we have a mixture of all -- persons from
2 all ethnic backgrounds, and only the additional questions or answers you
3 need from this document should be touched upon.
4 Can this be agreed? I can see no objection. If you could please
5 read out page number 1, the cover page, please.
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Socially-owned company,
7 Ljubija/Prijedor. The department for general affairs, the head of
8 department number 129/92. Prijedor, 4th of May, 1992. To Slobodan
9 Balaban regarding list of employees. Here enclosed please find the list
10 of employees who will be on paid leave in May 1992. Head of department,
11 Professor Dusan Tubin. Signed and stamped.
12 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
13 Q. Thank you, Mr. Marjanovic. We have now finished with this
15 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: May I ask, you have problems or you still feel
16 good or do you need a break?
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If I could have a break, I have a
18 problems with my eyes. I've had my glasses on for too long.
19 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Then let's have the break from now on until 10
20 minutes to 3.00.
21 --- Recess taken at 2.33 p.m.
22 --- On resuming at 2.54 p.m.
23 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Please be seated. May I ask, everything fine
24 with you again? No problem?
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, much better. Thank you.
1 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Please, Mr. Lukic.
2 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
3 Q. Mr. Marjanovic, I apologise for giving you such a hard time with
4 these documents. But you brought them along, so it's your fault actually.
5 The multiparty assembly of the municipality of Prijedor, until
6 when did it function?
7 A. I think it was until around the 20th or maybe the 15th or 16th of
8 May. I can't really be precise. I think it was held on the 16th of May,
9 the last session, I mean.
10 Q. Were you present at the session of the Prijedor Assembly Municipal
11 Assembly on the 16th of May, and what is this date connected with?
12 A. Oh, yes, now I'm sure the session was on the 16th of May in view
13 of the fact that this is liberation day in Prijedor, the day of the
14 liberation of Prijedor. The session was held in the large hall of the
15 Ljubija mine. I was not a member of the assembly, but I was with the
16 deputies who knew me, and most of them congratulated me on being appointed
17 director of the mine, although I had been appointed sometime before. But
18 they hadn't had an opportunity to congratulate me before that.
19 Q. Do you know who was at the head of the public accountancy service
20 in Prijedor after the takeover of power?
21 A. I can't tell you her full name because we all referred to her as
22 Hava. And I really don't know whether it was her first name or her last
23 name. But she was the managing director of the public accountancy
25 Q. For the record, would you please repeat the lady's name and tell
1 us her ethnic background.
2 A. Her name was Hava, and she was a Muslim lady.
3 Q. Do you know Miro Turnusek?
4 A. Yes. He was my uncle, although he's much younger than I am. But
5 that's what he was. And he was the director of Mira, a biscuit factory
6 which was part of the Krus enterprise from Zagreb.
7 Q. And what was Mr. Turnesek's ethnic background? Was he -- did he
8 remain in his post after the takeover of power?
9 A. It would be hard for me to tell you what his ethnicity was. I
10 know that he was the son of people who immigrated from Czechoslovakia. I'm
11 almost sure of it. I wouldn't be able to tell you his ethnicity, but he
12 worked normally like everybody else.
13 Q. Were you ever present at the handover of any weapons?
14 A. It happened a little before these fatal events in Prijedor. It
15 was sometime between the 15th and the 20th of May. I can't be more
16 precise than that. I went to see the secretary for agriculture in the
17 Prijedor Municipal Assembly, Mr. Ranko Travar. And on my way in, I met an
18 acquaintance from Cereci, from those times, and it was a long time ago, so
19 I can't remember his name. And he was seeking to extend the deadline for
20 the return of weapons, and I heard them talking about this at the entrance
21 because they hadn't managed to complete that part of the job. And after
22 that, I didn't listen to them any more. So I wouldn't know what they
24 Q. We are now in the period between the 30th of April and the 30th of
25 September, 1992. Do you know what regulations applied after the takeover
1 of power, especially legislation?
2 A. In the period between 1975 and 1979, I was a member of the
3 Executive Board of the assembly of the Prijedor Municipality. Although
4 I'm an engineer, I had to be familiar, at least in part, with these
5 regulations, this legislation, and all of the legislation was drawn up,
6 modelled on the previous legislation with a difference. The parties in
7 the municipality nominated the secretaries of various secretariats.
8 Q. Do you know when a state of war was declared in the Republika
10 A. In Republika Srpska, a state of war was declared in 1995.
11 Q. Can you describe for us an event connected to a conversation you
12 had with Simo Drljaca in connection with your driver.
13 A. When I was appointed the managing director of the mine, I changed
14 drivers. There was a Serb who was elderly, and I suggested that Faruk --
15 I'll remember his last name -- be appointed in his place. His last name
16 was Bajramovic. I apologise, I'm quite tired now, so my concentration is
17 not as good as it was. He was a wonderful man and a great friend of
18 mine. Almost throughout all of 1991, he performed this job.
19 Towards the end of May, I can't tell you the exact date, when we
20 had already started asking for passes in order to get to work, Simo
21 Drljaca showed me a document which I did not look at in great detail. And
22 he told me that at one of the sessions of the main board of the SDA, that
23 Faruk had been given the task of killing me. I couldn't believe that. I
24 went back to my office. I asked Faruk to come in, and I told him this.
25 He said: "Boss, you don't really think I could do that." And I'm sure
1 that he couldn't do that.
2 But in order not to create problems for him, in case the document
3 was true, and in order to avoid having to bear this burden myself, this
4 knowledge, we agreed mutually that he should go to the car repair unit and
5 do his work as a mechanic. We parted as friends. And later on, Faruk
6 went to(redacted). Before leaving, he came to see me and say goodbye.
7 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Shouldn't the country be redacted from the
9 MR. LUKIC: [In English] Yes, Your Honour.
10 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Please, so. Thank you. That's page 58, line
12 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
13 Q. Without repeating the name of the country to which this gentleman
14 went, can you tell us approximately when he left?
15 A. Faruk worked in the car repair service, and in his garage, he had
16 a mechanic workshop. And as far as I can remember, he worked until the
17 end of 1994.
18 Q. In 1992, you were the managing director of the largest company on
19 the territory of Prijedor Municipality. Holding the post you did, were
20 you able to influence in any way the decisions taken by the army?
21 A. The Ljubija mine really was the biggest company in Prijedor, with
22 a gross income of $120 million. I performed all my tasks according to the
23 statute of the company. And there was no way I was able to influence what
24 the army was doing.
25 Q. Would you tell us what happened in your family on the 3rd of July,
2 A. I had and still have two sons. My eldest son was then 18, and he
3 went to serve in the army at that time, which was the worst possible time
4 for that. That was the most difficult day of my life.
5 Q. Why?
6 A. I was unable to influence. There was no possibility of exerting
7 any influence to stop him going. Why? There was a state of chaos. The
8 war was already raging. Trenches had been dug. The dead were already
9 being buried. I sent my son -- rather, my son went into that chaos.
10 Q. Did you have a conflict with your wife because of this?
11 A. Well, of course. Like every other mother, she said: "Well, why
12 don't you try. Why don't you try to exert some influence to prevent
13 this?" She didn't know that this was not possible.
14 Q. You are still wearing your son's ID around your neck.
15 A. I do apologise. Fortunately, he is alive. The date is inscribed
16 here, the date that he left.
17 Q. Is his name on this plate?
18 A. Yes, it's an amulet. It has the date, the 3rd of July, and Dejan,
19 his name.
20 Q. Did your other son serve in the army as well?
21 A. Yes, he did. In 1994 and 1995.
22 Q. May we continue?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Did you, and if so, when did you hear that a Crisis Staff of the
25 Prijedor Municipal Assembly had been established?
1 A. I heard that it had been established, but I couldn't tell you the
2 exact date because it happened in the municipality. I wasn't in contact.
3 But I think it was after the 22nd or the 23rd of May. I'm not sure.
4 Q. Were you ever present at any of the meetings of the Crisis Staff?
5 A. No. I was never present at any meeting of the Crisis Staff.
6 Q. Were you ever present when members of the Crisis Staff were on
7 duty? Can you describe what these stints on duty were like?
8 A. Yes. On two or three occasions. These were nighttime stints of
9 duty. You would have to be on duty all night. And the office was in the
10 basement next to the centre for -- early warning information centre where
11 there were communications. I was there when Slavko Budimir was on duty,
12 Ranko Travar, Mr. Milomir Stakic, and Sidjak was also with us. I don't
13 know what his first name was, but he was not a member of the Crisis
14 Staff. The work of these people who were on duty amounted to
15 interventions when citizens reported that there was no water, that there
16 were problems with electricity, that there were problems to do with
17 utilities, that roads were blocked. And then they would intervene by
18 making a phone call to the service responsible for fixing whatever was
20 Q. Did you ever see Simo Drljaca on duty in this way?
21 A. No. Well, I've mentioned the people who were there when I was
22 there. I certainly didn't see anyone in uniform, either Simo Drljaca or a
23 soldier or anybody like that.
24 Q. At that time, were Crisis Staffs being set up in companies?
25 A. I couldn't say that they were, but I can tell you that we had a
1 team in my company guarding the technology and facilities of the mine. We
2 didn't call it a Crisis Staff, but there was such a team consisting of 10
3 to 12 people who were assigned to certain areas since the facilities are
4 scattered. And it was their duty to watch over the machines and the
5 plants. And it was quite difficult to do that because it was risky to
6 travel at the time. There were already barricades and so on. But that's
7 how we tried to take care of our equipment. I don't know about other
8 companies, but in conversation with other managing directors, colleagues
9 of mine, I learned that they used approximately the same method.
10 Q. Did such bodies exist even before that, or were they introduced
11 because of the war?
12 A. Such bodies didn't exist before, but after all of these events,
13 because of the safety reasons, because of the protection of property, that
14 I have already mentioned, we have acted in this particular way. And I
15 believe that it was normal given the circumstances. Wherever and whenever
16 there is a hardship of some sort, the law provided for the setting up of
17 bodies called Crisis Staffs in cases of natural disasters.
18 Q. What was the name of the body in your company, a working team or
19 something like that? A task force?
20 A. It was, in simple terms, a task force or a working team.
21 Q. Did your task force and people in it manage to protect your
22 facilities from looting?
23 A. During the first stages, that was certainly one of their tasks.
24 Protection of these facilities is a very specific task. The Ljubija mine
25 had a technology of washing the iron ore which comprised huge facilities
1 for sludge sediments. And there were several millions of cubic metres of
2 sludge in those containers. We had to organise ourselves to protect the
3 dams. And let me just give you an example, the dam in Zune. In Ljubija,
4 there is an early warning system in Donja Ljubija in case the dam was
5 destroyed, a huge wave would have erased everything from the surface of
6 the earth within 5 or 6 minutes. So the population had to be alerted to
7 know that they had to move to the highest elevation. So that was the most
8 difficult task.
9 The second task by difficulty was the explosives depot. I issued
10 an order for these explosives to be handed over to the army. There is a
11 law that regulates that. As for the other facilities, there were people
12 who were locals, local population, who worked on the protection of the
13 facilities in their villages.
14 Q. To protect the dam, did you also distribute weapons to the guards
15 who were in charge of its protection?
16 A. Yes. My colleague Sakib Islamovic from Donja Ljubija, a Muslim
17 from Donja Ljubija, together with a secretary-general of the local commune
18 in Ljubija, I know her first name. Her first name was Saha. So together
19 with her, they agreed that some of the weapons that we had would be given
20 to the local commune who would assign people to replace our own guards at
21 the dam in Zune. We managed to preserve all the dams.
22 Q. That dam in Ljubija would have destroyed Donja Ljubija if it had
23 been destroyed and if it had burst. Can you tell us, what was the
24 population of Donja Ljubija? What was its ethnic composition?
25 A. Yes, Donja Ljubija would have received the initial impact, and
1 Donja Ljubija is predominantly Muslim with about 90 per cent Muslim
2 population. But after that, the next village would be Ljeskare with mixed
3 population, Croats and Serbs and Muslims.
4 Q. Once again, can you repeat the name of the lady who was the
5 secretary-general of the local commune and with whom you agreed the
6 distribution of arms, and can you also tell us what was her ethnic
8 A. Her name was Saha, and she was a Muslim, a wonderful, wonderful
10 Q. Did you hear of the incident in Hambarine, and where were you at
11 that time?
12 A. I don't remember the date of the incident in Hambarine. I believe
13 that it was sometime between the 20th and the 23rd of May. On that day, I
14 was in Bosanski Novi. I was on my way back home, and I heard about the
15 conflict that had taken place. I remember the approximate date because I
16 was supposed to go to Spain to the World Congress of Mining, and obviously
17 I didn't go.
18 Q. What did you hear about the shooting there? Who was shooting at
19 whom, what was the demand in question? Can you explain? Can you give us
20 some more details.
21 A. Oh, I can just tell you what I heard from my neighbours. There
22 was the killing of reservists at the checkpoint in Hambarine. I believe
23 there were several wounded as well. And for a certain period of time, the
24 dead bodies were just lying there and access was denied to them. And
25 later on, the army took over and dealt with the whole thing in military,
1 way so to say.
2 Q. Do you know who was it who asked for the perpetrators or the
3 weapons to be handed over? What did you hear?
4 A. I heard that it was the army who insisted on the surrender of the
5 perpetrators. And they also said that nothing would happen. The
6 ultimatum was rejected. I believe that at the time the commander was
7 Zeljaja, the commander of the garrison. I believe his name was Radmilo
9 Q. Do you know the name of the persons whose surrender was asked for,
10 was demanded?
11 A. I don't remember. I can't remember. But I know he was a
12 policeman in Ljubija. I'm tired. If I wasn't, I believe I could
13 remember, but I don't want to waste any of your time.
14 Q. You're right. Let's move on.
15 The next incident was in Kozarac on the other side of Prijedor.
16 Did any of the mine equipment went missing or was it used at the
18 A. I'll try and explain what I saw and then what I subsequently
19 heard. On the Prijedor/Banja Luka Road in the area of Kozarusa, a trailer
20 was set on the road to block the traffic. Behind the petrol station at
21 the crossroads to Kozarac, there was a container which was taken from the
22 central workshop of the Ljubija mine without the approval of relevant
23 services there. And further on towards the east, towards Banja Luka, I
24 don't know whether there were any other obstacles. But I heard that a
25 military convoy was headed from Banja Luka to Prijedor, and they asked for
1 the obstacles to be removed. And I also heard that a soldier had been
2 killed, and then all hell broke loose.
3 Q. Who from the Territorial Defence of Kozarac asked for the
4 obstacles to be removed?
5 A. Not only in the area of Kozarac, but there are also barricades in
6 other areas or villages, so to say. People organised themselves. They
7 put up defence and inventions and suggestions came from the Crisis Staff
8 for the obstacles could be removed so that the traffic could start moving
9 freely. And in most cases, it bore fruit. But in this case, it was
10 fruitless. These attempts were fruitless.
11 Q. Before the arrival of this military convoy, did the army also
12 issue an ultimatum for barricades to be removed from that Banja
13 Luka/Prijedor Road?
14 A. I don't know.
15 Q. After the conflict in Kozarac, the facilities in Omarska -- your
16 facilities in Omarska were taken and occupied. What can you tell us about
17 the way this happened?
18 A. The director of Omarska was Dusko Vlacina. He was director of the
19 production plant there. And the organisation of watching the facilities
20 in Omarska was under his authority. I learned a few days after the
21 incident in Kozarac that the army and the police had forcibly entered the
22 facilities in Omarska.
23 Q. Who was it who informed you about the forcible entry into these
25 A. There were already stories in town. I didn't believe those
1 stories. But people who were in charge of providing security in Omarska
2 informed me. I can't remember their names. Those are security guards.
3 It wasn't Mr. Vlacina who informed me about that.
4 Q. Did you ever see a piece of paper, a document, that would justify
5 the takeover of facilities in Omarska?
6 A. At that time, I did not see any piece of document that would came
7 to me. Any such piece of paper would have been filed and recorded. The
8 first time I saw such a piece of paper was yesterday evening. You showed
9 it to me.
10 Q. Before this incident, when was it the last time you visited the
11 facilities in Omarska?
12 A. In my capacity as a director, I didn't need to make rounds of the
13 facilities. From time to time, I would go to familiarise myself with
14 them. I believe it was in 1991 when I went to the local commune of
15 Omarska. There was something with the water supply there that I needed to
16 inspect. And that's when I also made rounds of the mine facilities. And
17 after the -- all the misfortunate events, I was again in the Omarska plant
18 at the beginning of 1996.
19 Q. From the moment when the facilities were taken over, could you in
20 any way influence the developments at that site?
21 A. Firstly, let me tell you that there was no way for me to do
22 anything, to prevent these things. I'm afraid that at that -- that if I
23 had received a document at that time, I would have made an attempt to
24 prevent these things from happening. And I frankly don't know what would
25 have happened to me.
1 Q. Did you go to Simo Drljaca about this, about a friend of yours?
2 A. I had to go to the public security centre to be issued passes for
3 the free movement of my employees. My friend, the -- my --
4 Q. Can you explain the word.
5 A. So this gentleman was my brother-in-law's brother. The two of us
6 married two sisters. So I tried to intervene with Simo Drljaca. I asked
7 him to release one gentleman who was very popular in Prijedor, who was a
8 private entrepreneur. The answer was yes, he could be released, but only
9 if I accepted to take his place.
10 Q. What is the name of the gentleman?
11 A. Nikola Matanovic, a Croat. When I received this answer from Simo
12 Drljaca, obviously I didn't know what to do. I don't know what to say to
14 Q. But is Mr. Matanovic still alive today?
15 A. Yes, he survived Omarska. I believe that later on, he went
16 abroad, and he returned. And I think that he currently resides either in
17 Vojnic or in Glina.
18 Q. Did Simo Drljaca also threaten to hang you?
19 A. Yes. I'll try to give you the reasons why this happened. A young
20 man from the reserve police force was wounded in the spine, and he
21 couldn't walk. And Simo asked the mine to provide this young man with a
22 big house. I refused to do that because there were a number of such
23 cases, and the house in question was unsuitable for somebody who was in a
24 wheelchair. My idea was to give him a three-room flat in Pecani which
25 would be adapted to suit the needs of that young man whose name was
1 Dejan. And then Simo told me he would have me hanged, and he immediately
2 sent the police who seized my Mercedes, the Mercedes car that I used for
3 official purposes. Obviously he didn't have me hanged because I'm still
4 here. So he didn't do what he threatened he would.
5 Q. After all this, what was your personal relationship with
6 Simo Drljaca?
7 A. I didn't know Simo Drljaca before these events, before the 30th of
8 April. And since I was duty bound to go and fetch these passes, I got to
9 meet him. At first, he looked absolutely normal to me. As the events
10 developed, he proved to be absolutely unsuitable for any sort of
11 communication. He was arrogant in his dealings with everybody. And we
12 never struck even an ounce of friendship after these events on the 20th or
13 the 25th of May.
14 Q. At that time, between the end of May and the end of August, what
15 did you know about the events which were taking place within your compound
16 in Omarska?
17 A. This was called investigation centre. There were all sorts of
18 stories about this place. I believe that some of these stories were
19 correct; some of them were false. There were some false statements and
20 some truthful statements. But I am sure - I was then and I am now - that
21 nothing good was happening up there. I received information that up
22 there, there were some of my colleagues who had previously worked with me
23 in the mine who had been my associates, for example, Sakib Islamovic was
24 released after somebody from Belgrade put up a good word for him. He now
25 works in Zenica and lives in Prijedor. There were others from the mine.
1 What was really going on there, I didn't know then. I don't know now.
2 I've never had any details on what was going on there.
3 MR. LUKIC: [In English] Sorry, Your Honour.
4 Q. [Interpretation] At that time, was the so-called work obligation
5 introduced, and if it was, do you know when?
6 A. The work obligation was introduced -- I don't know exactly when,
7 but it was at the very beginning of June. I believe that it coincided
8 with the introduction of a curfew in Prijedor. After that, for a long
9 period of time, people were asked to subscribe to this work obligation.
10 The procedure in the mine was as follows: The heads of various sectors
11 would put up -- would draw up lists of people that they needed for
12 providing security facilities and equipment. I would receive those lists,
13 and I would send them to the secretariat for national defence. And it was
14 the secretariat who approved those lists, who approved the work obligation
15 for the people on those lists.
16 Q. Were there a number of people absent from the company because they
17 were mobilised there? They were members of the army?
18 A. According to my estimate, given the fact that the JNA also
19 recruited people from Prijedor and those people were also sent to
20 Slavonia, in the first part of June, over 30 per cent of the work force of
21 the mine were militarily engaged. A vast majority were at home on
22 standby. During the month of June, I asked people to call in so that we
23 could compile their lists. In later stages, over 90 per cent of the total
24 work force of the mine were militarily engaged. The only persons remained
25 working were women and myself.
1 Q. You said that after the takeover, people mostly remained working
2 in the company. When I said "working," some of them were on annual leave,
3 some were on sick leave, some reported for work. When was it that people
4 stopped coming to work on a large scale?
5 A. After the events which took place in Kozarac, it became impossible
6 to have a good enough insight into the status of the work force. The mine
7 stopped delivering the ore to Zenica, so all we had to do in the mine was
8 maintaining the surface excavation site and pumping water to prevent
9 flooding. That was all we had to do. So the work load was significantly
11 Q. The work load was obviously reduced due to the previous events
12 that had taken place. But did Muslims and Croats stop turning up for work
13 after the attack on Prijedor?
14 A. After the attack on Prijedor on the 30th of May, 1992, not only
15 did they fail to turn up for work, nobody came to work except for the team
16 that I had set up. At that time, for my own personal security reasons, I
17 also carried a pistol, and I had a security guard escorting me at all
19 Later on, during the month of June, a lot of people moved from
20 Prijedor. They were mostly Muslims and Croats. Therefore, obviously,
21 they couldn't come to work. And I have to mention another thing before I
22 forget. There was no way for me to establish the real status of the work
23 force. I believe that this happened sometime in July, but I can't be
24 sure. I drew up a document firing all those who had failed to turn up for
25 work, not only Croats and Muslims but everybody. And this document also
1 provided for the possibility for them to appeal. A number of workers of
2 heard that, and then we were able to establish the approximate status of
3 the work force which enabled us to continue paying salaries, to continue
4 paying contributions into various funds, to contribute putting shifts
5 together and so on and so forth.
6 Q. Do you remember if there was a curfew introduced in Prijedor
8 A. Yes, it was introduced. If my memory serves me well, this
9 happened in late May and the curfew was in place until the end of June.
10 And again, if my memory serves me well, the curfew was between 2200 hours
11 and 6.00 in the morning.
12 Q. Your building is across the road from the MUP building in
13 Prijedor. Correct?
14 A. Yes. The headquarters of the Ljubija mine is in Mosa Pijade
15 Street Number 1. And the MUP building is across the street, almost at
16 right angles. From my office, one could see the entrance into the MUP
17 building and the front facade of that building. At that time, during the
18 month of June, I noticed and I saw a number of people, mostly women,
19 standing in front of the MUP building. Later on, I found out that they
20 had applied for departure documents.
21 Q. From your window, did you ever see people in that line being ill
22 treated by anybody?
23 A. No, I didn't see that. I think that this would have been
24 impossible. Those were predominantly women in the line. There were a few
25 men as well, but predominantly women who were standing in that long line
1 waiting to enter the MUP building and to obtain the documents of some
2 sort. I don't know what documents they were applying for. But in any
3 case, those were the documents enabling them to leave Prijedor.
4 Q. I have to ask you, although one may draw a conclusion from your
5 previous answer, did you ever see anybody in that line of people being
6 killed by somebody?
7 A. No, not at all. Even if I had not been looking, I would have
8 heard because it is very close to my building, some 30 metres away from my
9 building. So I would have heard some sort of a sound, and I'm sure that I
10 never heard anything.
11 Q. Did you see anybody having been taken away by the police from that
12 line? Or did you ever hear of anybody from that line being taken away by
13 the police or arrested?
14 A. No. Never. I didn't hear of anybody from that line having been
15 arrested. I didn't hear that; I didn't see it either.
16 MR. LUKIC: Your Honours, I think that the technical booth has
17 ready one video. It wouldn't last long, but we would like to show the
18 witness that clip.
19 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: That should be no problem. If we can get the
20 green light from the video booth. Yes, I can see it's confirmed. So
21 please --
22 MR. LUKIC: It's Exhibit Number S7.
23 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: S7. So it may be started.
24 [Videotape played]
25 MR. LUKIC: Stop.
1 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Marjanovic, do you recognise -- not me, but
2 somebody else on this picture on this frame of the video from the meeting?
3 A. Yes, I do. In the central part, I recognise Dr. Milomir Stakic.,
4 Slavko Budimir. To the left, I think it's Kovacevic, Milan Kovacevic.
5 Then on the right-hand side, you can see part of someone's head. I think
6 that's Simo Drljaca. On the opposite side, Mandic, I think his first name
7 was Bosko. Those are the people I recognise.
8 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: For the transcript, we are now with 11:36:30:05.
9 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
10 Q. Mr. Marjanovic, when the video starts again, would you tell us
11 when to stop, please.
12 MR. LUKIC: [In English] I would ask the booth to rewind the tape
13 so we can start a few seconds before.
14 [Videotape played]
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Now. Now can we stop now. Now it's
16 clearer, the picture is clearer. Let me repeat. In the central part is
17 Mr. Milomir Stakic. Next to him on his left-hand side is Slavko Budimir.
18 On his right-hand side is Simo Drljaca. The first man on the left-hand
19 side of the picture is Milan Kovacevic. And let me repeat, opposite him
20 is Bosko Mandic.
21 MR. LUKIC: [In English] Can we move on, play the tape, please.
22 [Videotape played]
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Stop now.
24 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: For the transcript we are now at 11:36:34:08.
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The first on the right-hand side of
1 this picture is Mr. Radmilo Zeljaja. Next to Mandic, on his right-hand
2 side, wearing a uniform, I think that's Dr. Macura.
3 We can go on now.
4 [Videotape played]
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Stop.
6 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: For the transcript, 11:36:40:02.
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The first at the head of the table
8 is Simo, the president of the SDS.
9 MR. LUKIC:
10 Q. Simo Miskovic?
11 A. Yes, Simo Miskovic. And next to him in uniform is Slobodan
12 Kuruzovic. We can go on now.
13 [Videotape played]
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, please.
15 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: I think the witness wants the video to be
16 rewound a little bit.
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Stop.
18 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Stop. 11:36:50:04.
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In the foreground behind Kovacevic
20 is the secretary of one of the secretariats in the municipality, and I
21 can't recall his name at the present. But it is him. It's his face.
22 I can't remember his name now, but I do know the man personally.
23 We can continue.
24 [Videotape played]
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Stop. On the right-hand side with a
1 pencil in his hand is Spiro Marmat.
2 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Here 11:36:58:00.
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Go on.
4 [Videotape played]
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In the foreground is Savanovic,
6 Dragan Savanovic.
7 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: 11:37:05:04.
8 [Videotape played]
9 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
10 Q. I would now like to ask you whether you recognised yourself at
11 this meeting anywhere, in any of these pictures.
12 A. No. I mentioned the people I recognised. I think there were one
13 or two or three whom I don't know, but I didn't see myself.
14 Q. May we conclude, then, that you were not present at that meeting?
15 A. On the basis of this videoclip, no, I wasn't.
16 MR. LUKIC: [In English] We are done with the video for now,
18 Q. [Interpretation] You said that you were a member of the Executive
19 Board in the 1970s.
20 A. Yes. I was a member of the Executive Board for mining from 1975
21 until 1979.
22 Q. In the 1990s, and you will tell me exactly when, you were the
23 president of the Executive Board of the Prijedor Municipal Assembly, or
24 the vice-president.
25 A. I was the vice-president of the Executive Board of the Prijedor
1 Municipal Assembly, but on a voluntary basis, from October 1993 until the
2 1st of August, 1994.
3 Q. Do you know to whom the Executive Board was responsible for its
5 A. In its organisation and carrying out of its duties, it was the
6 assembly that appointed the Executive Board. And they submitted their
7 plan of work to the Municipal Assembly. It was then adopted by the
8 Municipal Assembly, and at the end of the year, they would have to submit
9 a report about their implementation of the plan. And they would also
10 submit this to the assembly. The assembly had the right to request
11 monthly reports or more frequent reports on the work of the Executive
12 Board. So let me conclude: Under all the relevant legislation of the
13 time following from the constitution and other legislation, the Executive
14 Board was exclusively responsible to the Municipal Assembly. This was
15 valid generally and it was also valid in Prijedor.
16 Q. Was the Executive Board responsible and did it submit reports to
17 all -- did it have any other kind of obligation to the president of the
18 Municipal Assembly?
19 A. No. No, it didn't. Because according to the statute of the
20 municipality, the competences were clearly defined as to how the
21 legislation was to be implemented, how the statute was to be implemented
22 also. So the Executive Board did not submit any reports to the president
23 of the assembly.
24 Q. To whom were the secretaries of the secretariats or the heads
25 responsible, the ones who were members of the Executive Board?
1 A. According to the then system, the heads were ex officio members of
2 the Executive Board, and they were responsible exclusively to the
3 Executive Board, that is, the chairperson of the Executive Board.
4 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: In order not to be confused and to have to come
5 back to this question, you mentioned "the then system." We are discussing
6 now what statute? To the best of your recollection, was it the statute
7 dating back to 1984, or was there ever a new statute adopted in 1991/1992
8 or later?
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can't be very precise. I was
10 referring to the legislation based on the constitution of 1974 defining
11 local self-government. Of course, at the level of the Republic of Bosnia
12 and Herzegovina, the statute could be changed by the assembly on the
13 initiative of the Executive Board or any other political -- political
14 subject. But we had a statute at the time, but to be quite honest, I
15 don't know when it was adopted.
16 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Maybe we have to come back to this issue later
18 Please proceed.
19 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
20 Q. At the time that you were president of the Executive Board, at
21 that time, was there a head of the municipality or was this post
22 introduced later on?
23 MR. KOUMJIAN: I don't think the witness indicated he was
24 president of the Executive Board.
25 MR. LUKIC:
1 Q. Were you the vice-president of the Executive Board?
2 A. May I -- I was the vice-president of the Executive Board, but this
3 was on a voluntary basis, from October 1993 until the 1st of August,
4 1994. So that is clear now.
5 Q. Because of the legal system.
6 A. The institution of the mayor was introduced in Bosnia and
7 Herzegovina two years ago.
8 Q. So when you were the vice-president of the Executive Board, the
9 situation was the same as in 1992 when we did not have the post of mayor,
10 but only the Municipal Assembly as the legislative branch of government,
11 and the Executive Board as the executive branch?
12 A. Yes. The same principle applied when I was the vice-president of
13 the Executive Board. The legislative authorities, that was the assembly,
14 and the Executive Board, that was the executive branch. And the same
15 principle applied in 1988 and in 1990 and so on.
16 Q. At the time when you were a member of the Executive Board, and
17 when you were the vice-president of the Executive Board, was it possible
18 for the Executive Board to order or ban anything in relation to the army?
19 A. No, this was not possible because the army under the law on
20 national defence was a separate entity with its own hierarchy and chain of
21 command. And it was quite apart from the civilian authorities, the
22 civilian government. But not only that, the Ministry of the Interior did
23 not come under the competence of the Executive Board of the Prijedor
24 Municipal Assembly. According to their hierarchy, they were responsible
25 to a higher authority in Banja Luka and the people in Banja Luka were
1 responsible to a higher authority in Sarajevo. So there was no
2 possibility whatsoever for someone from the executive or legislative
3 branches of government, and I'm talking about the municipal level now, to
4 issue orders either to the MUP or to the army.
5 MR. LUKIC: [In English] We have now to go through some documents
6 again. And I think that the witness is pretty tired. And if you don't
7 mind, we break today five minutes before --
8 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: We still have to discuss the admission into
9 evidence of two separate kinds of documents. This would be D57 through
11 THE REGISTRAR: D56, Your Honour.
12 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: No, I want to make a clear distinction between
13 D57 through D65 where we have a number of employees being either present
14 or absent for the one or other reason.
15 What is the intention? May I ask you, would you agree that the
16 originals you presented through the Defence to the Tribunal may stay with
17 the Registrar, with the Court, or do you want to have these originals back
18 when leaving hopefully during this week to your hometown?
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I have no objection to the original
20 documents remaining with the Court because the SDS replaced me, dismissed
21 me in 1996, and I have no use for these documents. But I hope that you
22 will have a use for them.
23 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Do you want to have copies for your personal
24 use, may it serve any purpose? One never knows in the future whether this
25 may be helpful or of assistance. Would this help you?
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I would take the copies as a
2 keepsake. I'm sure that I will not need them any more, but they will
3 remind me of my former colleagues and friends.
4 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: May I then ask Madam Registrar to take the
5 necessary steps to take copies of the originals. And then, may I ask the
6 Prosecution, are there objections to admit into evidence Documents D57
7 through D65B always?
8 MR. KOUMJIAN: There's no objection, but I would point out in
9 fairness to the Defence, while the witness is here, that there has been no
10 testimony regarding D61B, nor does it appear on the document what year is
11 being referred to.
12 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: To the best of my recollection, I made some
13 notes based on the testimony of the witness based on D61B. I think this
14 is clear. And this should be clear. And the witness even read out page 3
15 of this document, the last three lines. So this shouldn't be a problem.
16 In fact, one can't read 1992, but this would be a very of evaluation of
17 evidence. So in principle, there are no objections. Correct?
18 MR. LUKIC: Of course, we don't have any.
19 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Then these documents are admitted into evidence
20 under the numbers provisionally given. And please, in order to avoid
21 additional formal translation, I would like to ask Madam Registrar to make
22 reference to those portions on today's transcript where we can find that
23 what has been read out by the witness to the transcript. No doubt,
24 whenever a party or Judges later for what purpose soever need a clear and
25 proper translation, then we would come back to this issue.
1 Then, in addition, separate from this, we did not yet decide on
2 D56B. This was the alleged announcement to the people of Prijedor of the
3 30th of April, 1992, where the witness told us this morning that he
4 received this document the same day between 11.00 or 12.00 in the
5 morning. May I -- may it please the Prosecution be shown the original,
6 and then please for the Judges.
7 May I ask why on page 2, the words or the figures "01.05.1992."
8 Then "GOD." With a blue marker were redacted.
9 May the witness please be shown the original and one copy.
10 Would you please be so kind and give us an explanation why one
11 could read the 1st of May, 1992, on this document, page 2, and this was
12 later, blue-marked so it's not -- no longer legible.
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] When I was giving information in
14 Prijedor, and when I agreed to testify, I collected these documents from
15 my archives. And I wrote this date out of carelessness. This is a recent
16 date that I wrote on it. And when I realised what I did done, I crossed
17 it out.
18 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: When was it crossed out?
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] About 15 days ago.
20 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: So did you provide two documents, a copy and the
21 original? Because on the copy, one, no doubt, can read "1st of May,
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I only provided the original.
24 Only the original copy to Mr. Lukic.
25 MR. LUKIC: [In English] He thinks that he crossed it out, as you
1 can see it on a copy, and then it's blanked. So maybe you can clarify
3 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: I would appreciate if the witness could tell
4 us. You can see on the copy that it's still legible. 1st of May, 1992.
5 And then on the original, it's blue-marked in a way that you can't any
6 longer read 1st of May, 1992.
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In Prijedor, when I was preparing
8 this document, I was careless. I thought that this was the end of the
9 document before I discovered that there was a third page. And I thought,
10 as I remember that it was the 1st of May, so at home, I crossed it out.
11 The marker is the same. And when we arrived here, I did it again on the
12 original in a blue pen. And as for this copy, I don't know how it was
14 MR. LUKIC: We can explain the other part, because we copied and
15 bought back the original to the witness so he can follow further.
16 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: May -- we have to come back to this later. My
17 proposal is to admit both the original and one copy with the additional -1
18 as usual. May I ask the Prosecution, the time has run out as regards the
20 MR. KOUMJIAN: I'm sorry, the tape?
21 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: The videotape. So we have to conclude as soon
22 as possible.
23 MR. KOUMJIAN: Yes. No objection.
24 MR. LUKIC: No objection on our side either, Your Honour.
25 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Admitted into evidence under these -- under this
1 number. And the copy with an additional -1.
2 Any other issues to be discussed immediately? I only want to
3 invite the Prosecution, please, to be prepared to discuss tomorrow in the
4 beginning immediately the question of the videolink witnesses.
5 This concludes today's hearing. The trial stays adjourned until
6 tomorrow, 9.00.
7 [The witness stands down]
8 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned
9 at 4.38 p.m., to be reconvened on Tuesday,
10 the 4th day of February, 2003,
11 at 9.00 a.m.