Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 12599

1 Wednesday, 26 February 2003

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 2.32 p.m.

5 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Good afternoon. Please be seated. May we have

6 the appearances, please, when we have heard, of course, the case number.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Good afternoon, Your Honours. This is Case Number

8 IT-97-24-T, the Prosecutor versus Milomir Stakic.

9 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Thank you. And the appearances for the

10 Prosecution, please.

11 MR. KOUMJIAN: Good afternoon, Your Honours. Nicholas Koumjian,

12 Ann Sutherland, and Ruth Karper.

13 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Thank you. And for the Defence.

14 MR. LUKIC: Good afternoon, Your Honours. Branko Lukic and John

15 Ostojic for the Defence.

16 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Surprised to see you. But welcome back to

17 The Hague, Mr. Lukic.

18 Before we start with the link, you may know there is a problem,

19 the German saying: "One shouldn't dance on two marriages at the same

20 time." Unfortunately I have to do so. I won't call it a marriage, but on

21 two procedures. So to be serious, the question is: Do we have the

22 consent of the parties to continue with the videolink after I have to

23 leave in about 10 minutes, under Rule 15 bis, the case then presided over

24 by Judge Vassylenko, following our Rules of Procedure and Evidence?

25 Are there any objections by the Prosecution?

Page 12600

1 MR. KOUMJIAN: No, Your Honour.

2 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: By the Defence?

3 MR. LUKIC: No, Your Honour.

4 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Dr. Stakic in person?

5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour.

6 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Thank you for this. May we then ask the

7 audio/video unit, the line to Banja Luka functions? I see it come up, and

8 I can see Madam Dahuron. Very good afternoon to Banja Luka. First a

9 sound check. Can you hear us?

10 THE REGISTRAR: [Banja Luka] [Indiscernible]

11 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: It's a little bit difficult in the moment.

12 THE REGISTRAR: [Banja Luka] Can you hear me now?

13 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Yes, the quality is not the best. But if we

14 continue this way, we have it in one minute. Can you continue speaking a

15 little bit in English.

16 THE REGISTRAR: [Banja Luka] Good afternoon, Your Honour.

17 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: It's not that good.

18 THE REGISTRAR: [Banja Luka] We are now trying to increase the

19 quality. It's not very --

20 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: During the time the connection should be

21 improved. Could we have the usual view of the entire room.

22 THE REGISTRAR: [Banja Luka] It's the same person doing both so...

23 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Did you understand me?

24 THE REGISTRAR: [Banja Luka] Yes, I understood you. Do you

25 understand when I talk?

Page 12601

1 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Yes, now it's better.

2 May I ask Defence counsel present here in this courtroom, is there

3 any request for protective measures of this witness?

4 MR. LUKIC: We don't think so that there is any request for

5 protective measures, but maybe Madam Registrar could confirm it with the

6 witness, please.

7 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: We'll try, as we did previously also.

8 MR. LUKIC: Thank you.

9 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: May I ask, Madam Registrar, to escort the

10 witness into your office in Banja Luka.

11 [Witness testified through videolink]

12 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Good afternoon, Mr. Zvonko Iglic. Can you hear

13 me in a language you understand?

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

15 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Thank you. May we please hear your solemn

16 declaration.

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

18 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

19 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Thank you. You may be seated, please. You

20 should not be surprised that, say, within the next 10 minutes, Judge

21 Vassylenko will preside over this case as to the fact that I have to

22 return to another case.

23 You are called as a Defence witness. May I ask, before starting

24 with the examination-in-chief, Mr. Iglic, do you need any protective

25 measures?

Page 12602

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I don't need any protective

2 measures.

3 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Thank you for this clarification. As you have

4 been called by the Defence, the floor is now for the Defence. Mr. Lukic,

5 please, the floor is yours.


7 [Witness answered through interpreter]

8 Examined by Mr. Lukic.

9 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Mr. Iglic.

10 A. Good afternoon.

11 Q. Can you hear me?

12 A. Yes, I can hear you very well.

13 Q. My name is Branko Lukic, as you know, and together with Mr. John

14 Ostojic, I represent Dr. Stakic before the Tribunal in The Hague. Would

15 you please be so kind to introduce yourself for the record. Can you

16 please tell us your first name and your last name.

17 A. My name is Zvonimir Iglic. I live in Prijedor. I was born in

18 1949 in Novi Sad.

19 Q. Can you please tell us the name of your father.

20 A. Edgar is the name of my father.

21 Q. What are you by profession, Mr. Iglic?

22 A. I'm a physician, and I have a residency -- I'm a specialist in

23 otorhinolaryngology. I'm an ENT doctor.

24 Q. When did you graduate from the school of medicine?

25 A. I graduated from the school of medicine in Novi Sad in 1974.

Page 12603

1 Q. When did you complete your residence?

2 A. I completed my residence in 1971, again, in Novi Sad.

3 Q. Can you please tell us what is your ethnic background and what is

4 your religion?

5 A. I'm a Slovenian, and I suppose I should be Catholic. But my

6 belief is somewhat different, so I cannot give you a decisive answer in

7 terms of my religion, if that may mean anything to you.

8 Q. Can you please tell us whether you were a member of any political

9 party from the year 1980 onwards.

10 A. In 1990, in the first multiparty elections, I was proposed as a

11 deputy of the Municipal Assembly on behalf of the SDP which, in a way,

12 continued the tradition of the League of Communists which ceased to exist

13 in that year.

14 Q. Who was the leader of the party that you belonged to at the level

15 of Bosnia and Herzegovina?

16 A. The leader of the party was professor of political sciences from

17 Sarajevo, Mr. Turakovic.

18 Q. Were you elected as a deputy to the Municipal Assembly of Prijedor

19 in the first multiparty elections in 1990?

20 A. Yes, I was elected as a deputy to the Municipal Assembly.

21 Q. Can you please tell us briefly, what would you say about the

22 period following the multiparty elections up to the end of the period --

23 up to the end of April 1992?

24 A. After the multiparty elections, for the first time, the

25 government, as I had expected, was distributed amongst the

Page 12604












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Page 12605

1 ethnically-based parties. In Prijedor, the votes were largely divided

2 between the SDS and the SDA. The SDP won a negligible number of seats in

3 the Municipal Assembly, so it couldn't participate in the government, not

4 even as a coalition partner.

5 At that time, municipal organs were established, both the

6 municipal organ and the executive organs, that is, and the sectors were

7 distributed in the police, in the secretariats of the professional

8 services in the municipality, and this was done as a joint effort and in

9 cooperation with the people who were at that time in the leadership of the

10 SDS and the SDA. Obviously, the SDP did not play any role in all that.

11 It didn't have any influence. It was just a small opposition party that

12 appeared for the first time in the multiparty municipal assembly.

13 At that time, there was no need to form a coalition. There was no

14 need to have an opposition because before that time, there was just one

15 party. The relationships in the Municipal Assembly were, at the

16 beginning, very correct. But different interests that existed among the

17 two leading parties in the Prijedor Municipality resulted because of the

18 distribution of the key sectors, resulted in a split between these two

19 parties.

20 At the beginning, it was believed that if something was postponed,

21 then it would not blow into a major problem, and that it wouldn't be a

22 problem in the distribution of power. In that way, without any problems,

23 the offices of the president of the municipality, the vice-president of

24 the Municipal Assembly, the president of the Executive Board were

25 allocated, and the government started functioning. I must say that to my

Page 12606

1 very big satisfaction, this happened, although I was a member of the party

2 who -- which lost in the elections. But at that time, I did not have any

3 political ambitions. I only believed that it was important that we have a

4 multiparty system in the town because Prijedor was inhabited by various

5 peoples and that it was very important that the votes of the people were

6 evenly divided and they were given two different major ethnically-based

7 parties.

8 I don't know whether this has been enough for the moment, or do

9 you want me to say something else that would pertain to that period?

10 Q. Did it happen at the time that you would leave the sessions of the

11 Municipal Assembly of Prijedor because of the constant skirmishes between

12 these two irreconcilable parties?

13 A. As time went by, one could see things that I am still not clear

14 on. We could see that very important sectors were left nonallocated.

15 They were not allocated to any of the two ruling parties, either to the

16 SDS or to the SDA. At those moments, the work of the Municipal Assembly

17 was blocked, and this resulted in the physical exhaustion of the

18 deputies. At least, I was physically exhausted by those long sessions of

19 the Municipal Assembly that took place in the building of the national

20 theatre in Prijedor. And that is why I left the last few sessions of the

21 assembly, for a simple reason: I could no longer sit there because I was

22 embittered. There was a bitter taste in my mouth, and I realised that

23 such quarrels could not be without a bad result, a bad consequence for all

24 of us.

25 Q. Although this discord was reflected in the distribution of offices

Page 12607

1 and positions, what actually was behind the discord between these two

2 blocs? Was it the economic situation, the secession of

3 Bosnia-Herzegovina, or maybe something else?

4 A. There were numerous reasons for which these two ethnic groups did

5 not trust each other. It is obviously not possible to talk about all the

6 causes of the conflict. It would simply take too much time. But I can

7 say that I came to Prijedor without the legacy of the bad relationship

8 between these two ethnic groups, and that's why I did not give it too much

9 thought until the moment when these conflicts gave reason for concern to

10 all of us.

11 Obviously, there were economic reasons. The situation was getting

12 worse in the former Yugoslavia, including Bosnia and Herzegovina. There

13 was a high rate of unemployment. There was an -- increasingly less money,

14 and people were becoming more and more warded [phoen]. And the problems

15 obviously arose from the desire to salvage the so-called communism in the

16 former Yugoslavia. When I say the "so-called communism," I didn't

17 experience any other communism, so I don't know what other types of

18 communism were in Eastern Europe or in the Soviet Union. But it was the

19 desire of all of us to finally have a new kind of state, a multiparty

20 political system. I didn't believe for a moment that the state would

21 eventually break up, and especially not in the way it did.

22 What has led to -- what has led to the conflict between these two

23 people, I cannot say, but I witnessed this breakup, this conflict. This

24 breakup had a bearing on all of us, regardless of our ethnic background.

25 Serbs and Muslims formed a majority in Prijedor Municipality, and for that

Page 12608

1 reason, the organisation of these two peoples, through their political

2 leadership, first in Sarajevo and then elsewhere, led to these two ethnic

3 groups becoming suspicious of each other. There was a fear amongst people

4 because the leaderships of these two respective peoples started telling

5 people that there was a threat, that people had to be mobilised, that they

6 had to be ready. Those people who were in the position to listen to the

7 news at the time could hear nothing else but those things. I did not at

8 that time believe that there would be a fully-fledged conflict, but I did

9 start suspecting that something like that might eventually happen.

10 Q. Thank you very much, Doctor. Now I would like to ask you to

11 explain to this Honourable Chamber, what was the situation like in

12 Prijedor, and can you take Autotransport as an example? That is when the

13 army requisitioned some of the buses, and this was approved by Mr. Nihad

14 Suljanovic on behalf of Autotransport, and this gentleman was a Muslim.

15 He was not the one who approved the requisitioning; he only signed this

16 piece of paper. So can you tell us what happened.

17 A. The then Yugoslav People's Army needed vehicles, and that's why

18 they requisitioned some technical equipment, including the one part of the

19 fleet of the Autotransport Prijedor transport company. The main

20 dispatcher at the time was Nihad Suljanovic from Prijedor. He is an

21 engineer, and he had the right and he was the one who was in the position

22 to react to such a request of the army. He was the one who had the right

23 to decide which vehicle to give to the army without impairing the

24 transport services in the town of Prijedor. This is what he did. And the

25 then-director obviously looked at that decision, and it was only normal

Page 12609

1 that he complied with the request of the army. And Nihad Suljanovic was

2 suspended from the job, and then he was fired.

3 In that period, there was a war in Slavonia, and vehicles were

4 requisitioned by the Yugoslav People's Army to serve the needs of the

5 troops. We found this surprising, that there was a relationship which

6 should have been absolutely defined. We knew that the requirements of the

7 army should be a priority and that the attitude towards the army which

8 requested the vehicles should have been different.

9 Q. Do you know the name of the director of Autotransport who

10 suspended Mr. Suljanovic, and what was his ethnicity?

11 A. I don't know his name. I know that he held a Ph.D. in

12 engineering, and I believe that he was a Serb.

13 Q. Can we just clarify one thing. Can you please place this event in

14 a year and a month. You mentioned Slavonia and troops leaving for

15 Slavonia.

16 A. It was 1991. And as for the month, I am not sure what month was

17 that. I believe that it was sometime in the autumn of 1991.

18 Q. Thank you. This will be enough about that event.

19 Were you mobilised by the JNA, and from when until when did you

20 serve in the army and in what way did you serve?

21 A. In the then-Socialist Federative Republic of Yugoslavia, there was

22 only one army, and that was the JNA. I received a general callup, and

23 because, according to the then organisation of the medical corps, I

24 belonged to one of the units of the JNA. I reported to the military

25 department, to the command of this unit. I think it was the 318th

Page 12610












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Page 12611

1 Motorised Brigade. I may be wrong about the number, and I beg your pardon

2 if I am.

3 Q. Was it the 343rd Motorised Brigade?

4 A. Yes, I do apologise. Yes, it was the 343rd Brigade, that is, the

5 Prijedor Brigade. My role in this brigade was thus completed because the

6 brigade commander did not order me to put on a uniform or go anywhere in

7 the field. I continued doing my job in the hospital, but as was the case

8 with other colleagues, it was possible that I would be called upon when

9 needed so that others who were active in the medical corps could go on

10 leave and be replaced for a while.

11 At that time, the institution of work obligation did not exist

12 yet, so the callup by the unit was meant really that I was to be on

13 standby. But it did not affect my work in the hospital in any way. I

14 have to say that I was fortunate enough not to be called upon to go

15 anywhere where there was fighting going on.

16 Q. Will you tell us, please, whether you remember until when this

17 situation lasted and when you changed your status and how?

18 A. On the 5th of January, 1993, the Ministry of Defence Prijedor

19 department sent me a decision on work obligation, and with this, my

20 military service ended as of the 5th of January, 1993. The work

21 obligation referred to work in the hospital, and the decision contained my

22 full name and profession. This work obligation was renewed from time to

23 time because of possible changes in its content.

24 Q. In the course of 1992, 1993, and after that, what was your

25 position in the Prijedor hospital?

Page 12612

1 A. From 1981, until two years ago, I held only one position, that of

2 a specialist in otorhinolaryngology, and from 1991 to 1998, I was the head

3 of this service. Throughout the period before the war, when we set up

4 this service, five doctors passed through it, and just before the war

5 there were five specialised doctors working there.

6 In 1998, I continued working as a specialist in the same -- in the

7 same ENT ward as a specialist. But when I became the head, I was replaced

8 by my colleague Dr. Relja Mizkajic with whom I have to say I still have

9 very correct relations, although we are not working any more. But we are

10 still on friendly terms.

11 Q. Will you please tell us why you are no longer working with

12 Mr. Relja?

13 A. The overall situation in health care, especially in the Prijedor

14 hospital in the last few years, has been deteriorating. It has been

15 getting worse and worse in the financial aspect. And the problem was not

16 just the very small salaries, the irregular salaries received by doctors

17 at the moment seven months' late, but also the work conditions became

18 worse and worse. And my ambition to continue this weakened.

19 And then I decided to open up a private practice in accordance

20 with the law passed and with the approval of the ministry of health, I

21 have been working as the only person in my own practice. And to put it

22 simply, I'm doing this in order that my family can survive. That's why I

23 had to leave the hospital. So the only reason were the working

24 conditions, the poor financial situation, the dissatisfaction among the

25 employees. That was the only reason I left the hospital and opened up a

Page 12613

1 private practice, in order to earn more.

2 Q. We have been focussing on your work history, and this has led us

3 up to the present time. I would now like to go back in time to the period

4 when you were an assemblyman in the Prijedor Municipal Assembly. And I

5 would like you to think about your office, the office that you held at

6 that time.

7 As an assemblyman in the Prijedor Municipal Assembly, do you know

8 what was the relationship between the president of the Municipal Assembly

9 and the Executive Board, and do you know what powers, if any, were held by

10 the president of the Municipal Assembly in relation to organs such as the

11 army, the police, and so on? Can you tell us from your own personal

12 experience how you saw the office of the president of the Municipal

13 Assembly.

14 A. If my memory serves me well, in the first days of the work of the

15 assembly, apart from the fact that the deputies came from different

16 parties, the work did not differ very much from what it had been before

17 the multiparty elections. I mean, as far as the rules of procedure go.

18 As far as I know, if I remember well, according to the statute of

19 the municipality, both then and before that, the office of president and

20 the deputy president of the municipality was a purely ceremonial one. He

21 was not the highest authority of the municipality. I am speaking now of

22 the period before the war. This was the place where decisions of the

23 municipal committee and the League of Communists were implemented. And

24 decisions were simply rubber-stamped by the municipality, by the Municipal

25 Assembly. And when a multiparty assembly was set up, this still resembled

Page 12614

1 the previous assembly.

2 I think that the statutes and rules of procedure have to exist

3 somewhere, but I believe that the office of president was not more

4 important than established in the statute. And that neither before nor

5 after the war did the president of the assembly have any special power or

6 any special authority except, which is quite understandable, a certain

7 amount of prestige, which is indubitable.

8 Q. When - speaking of Dr. Stakic's prestige in Prijedor - was he a

9 well-known person in Prijedor, and can you describe his position in your

10 town at the time?

11 A. It's quite clear that Dr. Stakic became well known when he became

12 the president of the municipality. This was a public office, and when he

13 became vice-president, he was seen on radio, on television, in the media.

14 And of course, he thus became well known among the people in the town.

15 But I have to go back to the period when these offices were allocated, as

16 I mentioned, after the elections of 1990.

17 At that time, Dr. Stakic, as a politician, I have to admit, was

18 completely anonymous. He was not well known at all. I did know of him as

19 a colleague, a fellow doctor. He was then a general practitioner. And

20 because he worked in the same medical centre that I worked in, and the

21 centre covered several municipalities of the then Bosnian Krajina, so I

22 have to draw a distinction between him as a politician who most people in

23 the town did not know at all and him as a doctor.

24 But according to the hierarchy, if I remember well, he was the

25 vice-president, which means that he had to help organise the work of the

Page 12615

1 assembly and the sessions, and that's precisely what I remember. There

2 were sessions, and there were discussions in the corridors, and this was

3 in the period when there was still relative harmony or at least there were

4 no open conflicts.

5 Q. Do you know whether the president of the Municipal Assembly was

6 able to issue orders to the Executive Board of the Municipal Assembly, or

7 whether the Executive Board was responsible to the Municipal Assembly?

8 A. I will try to tell you what I know, although I was never involved

9 in this kind of work, nor was I involved in politics before the war. But

10 I'm sure that in the period before the multiparty elections, and I am

11 deeply convinced that this situation continued after, that alongside the

12 party structures of the then League of Communists and later on the parties

13 ruling in Prijedor, the president of the Municipal Assembly had no real

14 power. His was a purely ceremonial job.

15 The duty of the president of the municipality was to go to public

16 events, but I don't remember that the president of the municipality was

17 ever someone who was able to run or manage the executive branch of

18 government or the Executive Board and the municipal secretariats. This

19 should be clear to everyone. I hope it is. And the secretariats were

20 directly under the republican government after the events of 1992.

21 Q. Since we are now mentioning the secretariats, some of which later

22 became republican ministries, did you ever see Mr. Cehajic while he was

23 the president of the Municipal Assembly issuing orders to the Ministry of

24 the Interior, that is, the police?

25 A. I know of no such thing. No, I don't know.

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Page 12617

1 Q. Did you ever see Mr. Cehajic issuing orders to the army?

2 A. No, I have no knowledge or information of this either.

3 Q. Let us now talk about the period after the 30th of April, 1992,

4 the period after the takeover of power. On the 1st day after the takeover

5 of power, did you see Mr. Cehajic in Prijedor, and if you did, where and

6 how did you see him?

7 A. That morning came as a surprise to me because in spite of the

8 conflicts that existed between the two leading parties in Prijedor, I

9 expected that the situation would continue as it was, and then perhaps

10 that they might even reach agreement about certain issues.

11 On that morning, if I remember rightly, it was a sunny morning. I

12 saw my former teacher, the then president of the municipality of Prijedor,

13 Mr. Cehajic. I saw him sitting in front of a small cafe, or rather a

14 barbecue shop owned by a man called Kapetanovic. As usual, he was nicely

15 dressed, wearing a tie. I didn't talk to him. I just said "hello," as I

16 always did, because he had been my teacher and because I remembered him

17 with pleasure because he was a nice man.

18 Q. At that time, I am referring to the period after April 1992, did

19 you have any contacts with Dr. Kovacevic?

20 A. Yes. Because of the nature of my job, I had contacts with him

21 almost every day. And in view of the office he then held in the

22 municipality, after this period, I saw him less often, and we had fewer

23 contacts. But still, whenever I asked him for help in my work in the

24 hospital, because Dr. Kovacevic was an anaesthesiologist and a very good

25 one, he would come to the hospital and bypassing all the rules, he would

Page 12618

1 turn up in the morning and assist as an anaesthesiologist and help me with

2 surgery, especially with children when I had to remove tonsils. And

3 before and after the war, I have to say that we worked very well as a

4 team.

5 Q. Did you continue working with Dr. Kovacevic in 1993, 1994, and

6 after that?

7 A. Yes. Dr. Kovacevic was the director of the hospital. And due to

8 the nature of our job, we continued working together in the operation

9 theatre. And he was the director of the hospital in very difficult times

10 for the health care, and he was the only person who could help me in my

11 daily work. He was the only person responsible for all the problems that

12 may have arisen, and he asked me to consult with him about any problems

13 that I may have experienced with the personnel, with the resources. So we

14 had daily contacts.

15 But let me add to that, that our contacts were only in the

16 hospital, and although they were in the hospital, sometime they were very

17 informal because that's the kind of person Dr. Kovacevic was.

18 Q. In the contacts with Dr. Kovacevic, did you ever feel that you

19 were being treated differently because you were not a Serb? Did you feel

20 awkward in those contacts?

21 A. My relationship with Dr. Kovacevic was the relationship of two

22 professionals, and it was also a friendly relationship. He was a bit

23 older than me, and he had lived in the conditions much worse than my

24 conditions were. But he was always ready to help; he was very

25 professional; he could always give me very professional advice. He was a

Page 12619

1 very good anaesthesiologist as I've already said. He worked as an

2 anaesthesiologist for other services, but I always felt that he had time

3 for me, that he always had the time to listen to me.

4 Sometimes in the morning, we would meet, and we would talk very

5 informally. Sometimes, we would even light a cigarette. He would

6 sometimes come into the operating theatre with a cigarette in his mouth

7 and I would scold him for that without any problems. That means that I

8 had a lot of credit with him. He was not a quick tempered person as

9 people thought he was. Those people who knew him better knew that he was

10 a good person and that he couldn't hate anybody, on the contrary. This is

11 what I know of him and this is what I thought of him.

12 Q. In addition to Dr. Kovacevic, did you also have contacts with

13 another colleague of yours, Dr. Milomir Stakic in that period that we have

14 just mentioned?

15 A. In the period when Dr. Stakic was the president of the Municipal

16 Assembly, my contacts with him were only formal. That means that we would

17 only talk about certain things that pertained to the area of health care.

18 I believe that it isn't difficult to understand that somebody who is a

19 doctor and who finds himself in the role of the president of the Municipal

20 Assembly is in the position to help the hospital in terms of heating, in

21 terms of supplies. Sometimes it was so cold, there was no heating, we

22 could skate on the floors of the hospital. So our contacts were mostly at

23 the time when he came to visit the hospital.

24 I always mustered the courage, despite his high position, to talk

25 to him and to ask him for supplies from the humanitarian aid. And

Page 12620

1 sometimes we even managed to obtain some things in that way -- in that

2 way. So when I talked to Dr. Stakic, it was not to talk to the president

3 of the Municipal Assembly, but to talk to a fellow doctor who could help

4 me in my everyday work with my patients.

5 Q. In your contacts with Dr. Stakic, did you ever notice that you

6 were being treated differently or worse than other people because you were

7 not a Serb? And can you also tell us whether you ever concluded from

8 Dr. Stakic's statements or behaviour that he hated Muslims and Croats and

9 other non-Serbs?

10 A. In my every contact with him, there was a very normal level of

11 human respect, mutual respect. His handshake was very firm, and he always

12 asked me whether there were any problems, whether we could manage. He was

13 always very serious. I could never make him smile, let alone laugh. But

14 he knew what our conditions of work were like, and that's why every

15 conversation with him started with the words "Are you okay?" "Can you

16 manage?" "Are there any problems?" He knew that we were short of

17 supplies, and whenever we received supplies, we received very little.

18 He, as I say, is a doctor, and he wanted to know about the work in

19 the hospital. He didn't need to talk to me about politics. And I never

20 felt in his relationship towards me any animosity or discrimination. I'm

21 a Slovenian. I'm not using your term non-Serb, which I resent a little,

22 because it puts all the Serbs on one side and the other people on the

23 other side. And this cannot be the case. This is discriminatory. If you

24 want to use it, okay, maybe you want to use it to explain some things that

25 were happening at that time.

Page 12621

1 In any case, I have to say that my contacts with him were always

2 very correct.

3 Q. Doctor, I have to apologise. It was not my intention to insult

4 anybody. We are just using the terms from the indictment, and that is why

5 I'm using this term which I must admit I also find very strange.

6 A. I believe that we think the same, although we are using these very

7 formal terms. I did not mean to correct you. I know that you're using

8 the terms that are customary in the indictment, and that have been used

9 before. And I believe that we understand each other, that we are not

10 talking at crosspurposes here.

11 Q. We absolutely understand each other. Thank you very much.

12 In addition to the shortage of medicines in the Prijedor hospital,

13 was there also a shortage of electricity, and were there any other

14 shortages?

15 A. The overall situation at the hospital in the beginning of the war

16 was relatively good. The stocks of the medical corps of the Yugoslav

17 People's Army and the stock of the medical stock of the hospital at the

18 beginning met the needs. As we're talking about the medical supplies

19 which are for -- which are used only once, and you never know how much

20 will be used. These stocks begin to dwindle. And when I say medical

21 supplies, I'm not talking only about gauzes and dressings and other

22 things, but everything that is used in the everyday work of doctors, the

23 syringes, catheters, all the things that are used only once and are then

24 discarded when used.

25 New medical supplies did not arrive, and there was no

Page 12622












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Page 12623

1 electricity. We shared the lot of the entire town. We had a generator, a

2 powerful generator, but that generator used oil, so we actually couldn't

3 use it. Since we couldn't use that large generator, we had to use some

4 small ones. I personally had a 300-watt generator that worked as a small

5 aircraft engine. I used that when I went to the surgery, and I would take

6 that generator and I would safeguard it as the apple of my eye. That

7 generator used petrol, and petrol at that time was also a very precious

8 commodity.

9 All in all, I kept that little generator under a lock in my room.

10 It was so precious to me.

11 Q. Talking about the hospital, we know that Dr. Stakic came back to

12 the hospital in 1993 and that he worked as Dr. Kovacevic's deputy. At

13 that time, as a doctor, what was Dr. Stakic's reputation and what was the

14 attitude of other colleagues towards Dr. Stakic at that time?

15 A. At that time, if my memory serves me well, there was the health

16 centre as a medical institution. There was also a hospital and the

17 medical centre, and I believe at that time, Dr. Stakic was the deputy of

18 the director of the health centre, if I'm not mistaken. I don't want to

19 get mixed up on his position. He was not the deputy director of the

20 hospital, if my memory serves me right.

21 And as far as the second part of your question is concerned, let

22 me answer that: The colleagues who worked with him in Omarska knew him

23 well. Most of the others didn't know him, which is understandable. When

24 a young doctor starts working, it takes him at least ten years to gain a

25 name, to become recognisable through his work, through his practice,

Page 12624

1 depending on the specialisation.

2 At that time, Dr. Stakic was a general practitioner. As far as

3 I'm concerned, I -- my attitude towards him was neither positive or

4 negative. I did not have any special opinion on his medical skills and

5 knowledge. The majority of my colleagues did not know him. I'm talking

6 about the colleagues who worked at the hospital. And as far as his

7 political position is concerned, I'm not familiar with that, and I don't

8 want to claim something that wouldn't be true.

9 Q. At the time when Dr. Stakic came back to the medical centre of

10 Prijedor, did Dr. Kovacevic ever tell you to treat people differently

11 depending on their ethnic background?

12 A. No, never.

13 Q. Did Dr. Stakic ever tell you to treat people differently depending

14 on their ethnic background?

15 A. No, never.

16 Q. There was a shortage of medicines; there was a lack of

17 electricity, medical supplies, as you've said. Was there also a shortage

18 of personnel in the provision of health care in Prijedor?

19 A. Yes, unfortunately there was. There was an increased number of

20 wounded. The standard of living went down. The number of sick people

21 went up. And this put our medical institution in a difficult situation,

22 and the people who had remained working in the hospital after all the

23 incidents had a tough job.

24 Those colleagues who were surgeons such as gynecologists and

25 ophthalmologists were not prepared, were ill-equipped, to take over the

Page 12625

1 treatment of fresh wounds. We must bear in mind that throughout the war

2 in Prijedor, from the front lines, in Krupa, Novi Grad, and especially

3 Suva Medja [phoen], we received a huge number of wounded. Sometimes they

4 were transported by helicopters, sometimes by ambulances. And that the

5 first doctors who saw them were the ones in Prijedor. And this all meant

6 that all of us doctors had to work around the clock. We barely had time

7 to go home, have a bite to eat, and a shower. At that time, in the

8 hospital, we did not have facilities for that.

9 So there were people who left, but not because of that. Maybe we

10 were tired, we were exhausted at that time, but we didn't complain. I

11 don't remember that anybody complained. We all pulled our strings

12 together and worked hard.

13 Q. Despite all of these problems and troubles, did it ever happen

14 that groups of drunken people, armed people, barged into the hospital?

15 Can you tell us anything about that?

16 A. The Prijedor hospital is very big. There was a control of -- at

17 one entrance, there was a group of policemen from the reserve force,

18 mostly young men from Cirkin Polje. That is where the hospital is

19 situated. So these young men were providing formal protection for the

20 employees and for the patients, because it did happen sometimes

21 unfortunately that lads who had gotten drunk in a cafe or in a pub decided

22 to barge into the hospital on their way home. And that's when problems

23 started.

24 They would insult doctors and other personnel regardless of who

25 they were. And the police role as protectors was rather weak. They

Page 12626

1 couldn't protect us. However, there were no major incidents. There were

2 some individuals who caused trouble, but I believe that they are known,

3 and they have been punished for that. But in any case, there were no

4 major incidents, just the incidents when drunken lads would barge into the

5 surgery to see who was being treated, who was not being treated, whether

6 there were wounded brought in and so on and so forth. All this disturbed

7 the work of the medical personnel and decreased our level of service.

8 Q. In the course of 1992, did you leave Bosnia and Herzegovina? Did

9 you go anywhere outside the country, and did you get certain passes to do

10 this, and who did you get them from?

11 A. In the course of 1992 and 1993, I didn't leave the territory of

12 Bosnia and Herzegovina. My need to go temporarily to Novi Sad occurred in

13 1994 when my eldest was to enroll at university in Novi Sad, and we needed

14 a pass to do this. As a person subject to work obligation, and the same

15 applied to persons who had been mobilised and were serving in the army,

16 they had to have a pass issued by the Ministry of the Interior with the

17 permission of high-ranking officers of the army of Republika Srpska. That

18 is, the 1st Banja Luka Corps.

19 I tried to pass through without such a permit, but I failed. I

20 wasn't trying to run away. I had left my family in Prijedor. But then I

21 tried to obtain such a pass for myself and for my son, who was already of

22 age and he had just graduated from secondary school. And so I turned to

23 Dr. Stakic who was a colleague of mine and who said to me very kindly but

24 very firmly that he was unable to issue a pass of this kind and that he

25 did not know how it could be obtained bypassing the police.

Page 12627

1 Following his advice, I went to see the chief of police in

2 Prijedor, the late Simo Drljaca, and I have to say that with his

3 assistance and the assistance of people from the Ministry of the Interior

4 in Bijeljina, I received a pass signed by the proper authorities, and then

5 I was able to travel without any problems. And I have to say that I

6 didn't have the feeling that Stakic didn't want to help me; I knew that he

7 couldn't. It was simply not within his sphere of competence at the time.

8 Q. Mr. Iglic, I think we will now suggest that we take a break. We

9 shall see whether it is a convenient moment.

10 JUDGE VASSYLENKO: How much time you need to complete your

11 examination-in-chief?

12 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I think that we need another quarter

13 of an hour or 20 minutes, Your Honour.

14 JUDGE VASSYLENKO: We have to have a break at 1600 hours, so you

15 can complete your examination until then.

16 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

17 Q. You have heard, so we shall continue and complete the

18 examination-in-chief. Dr. Iglic, did you know a person by the last name

19 of Zeljaja, and do you know where this man comes from?

20 A. The person named Zeljaja was a high-ranking army officer, but I

21 couldn't tell you exactly what he was by the establishment. But he came

22 to replace the then commander of the Prijedor military unit who was then a

23 Lieutenant-Colonel, and his name was Arsic. I later learned that Zeljaja

24 came from Sarajevo, or the surroundings of Sarajevo, because his father

25 moved to Prijedor and came to me for checkups. That's how I know that

Page 12628












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13 English transcripts.













Page 12629

1 Zeljaja came from Sarajevo.

2 Q. And do you know where Mr. Arsic came from? You mentioned him.

3 A. Mr. Arsic, who was a captain first-class when the war broke out

4 was an officer of the JNA. I know that he comes from Serbia. I think he

5 was born in a village near Kopaonik, either Blace or Prokuplje, but I

6 can't be sure. I don't have any precise knowledge as to that.

7 Q. So neither Mr. Zeljaja nor Mr. Arsic were from the Prijedor

8 Municipality?

9 A. That's correct.

10 Q. Do you know whether they knew Dr. Stakic before the war, either of

11 these two gentlemen?

12 A. I don't have any knowledge of this. I know that by virtue of his

13 post, the then commander of the Prijedor Brigade once addressed the

14 Municipal Assembly, and I assume that he must have then been formally

15 introduced to Dr. Stakic. I think that Dr. Stakic must have been

16 introduced to him then. I think that he was already a major or perhaps

17 even a lieutenant-colonel.

18 Q. You mentioned his speech in the Municipal Assembly. Can you tell

19 us what reactions this speech prompted.

20 A. Arsic, by the establishment, was an officer of the unit when the

21 unit was part of the JNA. And that's how he happened to be in Prijedor

22 when the war broke out. His attitude towards us, assemblymen, at that

23 time was very correct, and I am referring to all the assemblymen in the

24 theatre. We had to use the theatre because it was large enough to hold

25 the large number of assemblymen. This was the beginning of political

Page 12630

1 pluralism, and he spoke in very specific terms.

2 He told all of us that if there was no agreement between the

3 political players in the town at the time, we would be contributing to the

4 spreading of conflicts. And I assume he was then a major - he's a general

5 now, Arsic. He was very convincing, and he spoke very decisively. Like

6 every officer, he was wearing a uniform. And although his speech was very

7 correct, it caused a lot of dissatisfaction on the other side of the

8 theatre, that is, the then assembly. And I'm referring to the Benches

9 where the representatives of the Muslim party usually sat.

10 At that moment, I had a gut feeling, and I later on analysed the

11 behaviour of these people in uniform, and I have to say that I was really

12 not frightened by this speech. But people obviously had reasons to be

13 afraid. Because at that time, members of the same army commanded by

14 Arsic, these people were of all ethnicities, Muslims, Croats, Serbs. This

15 was our unit. It was not a Serb unit or a Croat unit or a Muslim unit.

16 And that's why I thought there was no reason to be afraid at that time.

17 And I have to say that that's why I responded to the callup,

18 because at that time, the unit was our unit. It was our common unit.

19 Q. At that point, it was probably 1991, am I right?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Did you have the impression that the civil authorities, such as

22 the Municipal Assembly to which you yourself belonged and the Executive

23 Board, were able to issue orders to Mr. Arsic as a soldier?

24 A. Neither then nor later, especially not later, did I have the

25 feeling that any of the representatives of the civilian government in

Page 12631

1 Prijedor, and by this, I mean the people holding offices in the

2 municipality, were able to issue orders of any kind to the police,

3 especially not to the chief of police, or any of the officers commanding

4 the military units. The military hierarchy had been taken over from the

5 JNA. And anybody who knows anything about this must know that before the

6 war, the JNA was, I must say, a state within a state, so to speak.

7 Perhaps someone wanted to give the impression that they had so

8 much power that they could influence the decisions of the army or the

9 police at that time. But it was certainly not the then president or the

10 people around him who could do that.

11 Q. When you say "president," do you mean the president of the

12 municipality?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Do you know of any situations in which it was evident that there

15 were problems in communication between the municipal organs and the

16 police, although they both belonged to the civilian authorities?

17 A. The relationship between the police and the civil government,

18 well, it probably existed. It must have. But I don't know anything about

19 the details, except that in the hospital, because we needed to obtain

20 fuel, there were often conflicts between the director of the hospital and

21 the representative of the military authorities concerning the transport of

22 the wounded to Banja Luka because there was not enough fuel.

23 And I have to say that Dr. Kovacevic, as he has been described by

24 people, and so he was, he was quiet rough and prone to anger, because he

25 couldn't understand that an army that was capable of waging war was unable

Page 12632

1 to obtain fuel for the transport of the wounded. And this was within our

2 sphere of confidence -- competence because the hospital was part of the

3 military medical corps, although it was treating the wounded.

4 Q. I have two more questions connected with Dr. Stakic's

5 personality. Although you have already given a partial answer to this

6 question, but I will ask you for some additional clarification, did

7 Dr. Stakic ever in your presence advocate nationalist theories? Was he

8 ever an advocate of nationalist policies?

9 A. All my contacts with Dr. Stakic had to do with practical reasons.

10 By, this I want to say that we were never friends who visited each other,

11 chatted, or spent their leisure time together. But we did have

12 opportunities - I think everybody is aware that in that period, the cafe

13 or the restaurant called Oskar near the hospital was a place where we

14 would always drop in to have a cup of coffee on our way to work. And very

15 often, there was a group of colleagues there going to work or leaving

16 work.

17 And so it happened that I would find myself sometimes sitting in

18 company with Dr. Stakic, not just the two of us, but we would be part of a

19 group where it was possible to express one's opinions, one's feelings.

20 And I never heard any hostile words expressed by him against non-Serbs.

21 Never heard him say that. And I can state that decisively. I never heard

22 him say anything bad about anyone, either an individual or an ethnic

23 group. I never heard Dr. Stakic say anything like that.

24 Q. I would just like to ask you to tell us what your view was and is

25 now of the reputation, character, and integrity of Dr. Stakic.

Page 12633

1 A. Before I decided to testify in Dr. Stakic's case before this

2 Tribunal, I didn't analyse anyone's personality, with the exception,

3 perhaps, of Dr. Kovacevic. But I have to say that I did make an analysis

4 of Dr. Stakic's personality, and I will now state it in public hoping I

5 will not offend anyone.

6 I know that at that time, a young man being offered a political

7 career would have found it difficult to refuse an office because as a

8 doctor, he would have to be humane. And this should be more important to

9 him than anything else. He did not refuse this offer. Had times been

10 different, I don't believe he would have taken up a career in politics.

11 But however hard he may have wanted to, he was unable to leave his stamp

12 on events because when I tried to make my own analysis of the situation,

13 most of the people who entered politics at the time didn't really have any

14 personal gain. I never saw him storming or raging on about political

15 issues, and I don't see that short of running away, how he could have done

16 anything to prevent what happened.

17 Q. Dr. Iglic, thank you very much.

18 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] This completes the

19 examination-in-chief. After the break, you'll be examined by my learned

20 friends from the Prosecution, and then by their honours, the Judges.

21 Thank you.

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You're welcome.

23 JUDGE VASSYLENKO: Thank you, Mr. Lukic. May I ask Madam

24 Registrar to be in touch with Banja Luka in order to restart our hearing

25 at 16.35. Trial stays adjourned until 16.35.

Page 12634












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13 English transcripts.













Page 12635

1 --- Recess taken at 4.04 p.m.

2 --- On resuming at 4.39 p.m.

3 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Please be seated.

4 Just for the transcript, the Trial Chamber continues in its entire

5 composition. Based on a perusal of the LiveNote that happened beforehand,

6 I take it that it's now for the Prosecution to cross-examine the witness.

7 Correct? The examination-in-chief has been concluded. So may we see

8 whether the link to Banja Luka is established.

9 Okay. I don't know why, but on some screens, you can see the

10 witness, and on others not. Now it's okay. Thank you.

11 May I ask now the Prosecution to cross-examine the witness.

12 Please.

13 MS. SUTHERLAND: Thank you, Your Honour.

14 Cross-examined by Ms. Sutherland:

15 Q. Dr. Iglic, I'm going to be asking you questions on behalf of the

16 Prosecution. If you don't hear my question, please say so, and I will

17 repeat it. Or if you don't understand it, I will try and rephrase it.

18 During the questioning, I will also be making some references to

19 pages numbers for the Court. And you don't have to be concerned with

20 that. Do you understand?

21 A. Yes, I do.

22 Q. You're married to a woman of Serb ethnicity. Is that correct?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. When you went to Dr. Stakic about attaining a pass in 1994 - and

25 this is on page 23, for the Defence and Your Honours - this was when

Page 12636

1 Stakic was no longer the president, wasn't it?

2 A. If my memory serves me right, then you are right. He was no

3 longer president.

4 Q. When you were giving evidence earlier on, you said that you asked

5 Dr. Stakic for supplies for humanitarian aid for the hospital. And this

6 is at page 17. This was because Stakic was the president of the Municipal

7 Assembly and president of the Crisis Staff, was it not?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. And the president of the Municipal Assembly is the most

10 prestigeous position in the municipality. Do you agree?

11 A. According to the statute of the Municipal Assembly, I must say

12 once again, I'm sure you can obtain a copy of that statute. The office of

13 the president of the Municipal Assembly is ceremonial. When I say that,

14 I'm not undermining the office of the president of the Municipal Assembly,

15 but his authorities are somewhat limited in comparison with the authority

16 of the executive power. And when I turned to him for help, it is only

17 understandable.

18 He was a doctor, and he was the president of the Municipal

19 Assembly. Humanitarian organisations were in constant contact with the

20 highest official of the municipality, and there was the officials of the

21 municipality had an insight into what can be obtained from the

22 humanitarian aid that arrived from Germany, from Greece. They knew what

23 could be obtained. I personally got some supplies from Switzerland, and

24 it was Dr. Stakic who helped me in the following way: I submitted to his

25 office our requirements for certain instruments, and we obtained them from

Page 12637

1 Switzerland. We call them Swiss instruments, although the proper name of

2 those instruments is something totally different.

3 Q. Mr. Iglic, I want you to answer only the question that I put to

4 you, and I will repeat my question for you. That is, the president of the

5 Municipal Assembly is the most prestigeous position in the municipality,

6 is it not? Do you agree with that?

7 A. During the war, no.

8 Q. In your view, what position was higher than the president of the

9 Municipal Assembly?

10 A. The chief of the police.

11 Q. What about the president of the Crisis Staff?

12 A. I didn't know of the existence of the Crisis Staff for a long

13 time. It was only when I had problems with fuel, then I was told that I

14 should go to the Crisis Staff of my local commune to get the certificate

15 for the purchase of fuel.

16 Q. Dr. Iglic, did you attend any Municipal Assembly sessions after

17 the takeover?

18 A. No.

19 Q. Were you ever invited to any meetings?

20 A. No.

21 Q. You were a deputy. Why weren't you invited to any meetings?

22 A. I was a deputy representing the SDP, and that party, before the

23 takeover and after the takeover was an opposition party. And it was the

24 SDS that took over the entire power into its hands.

25 Q. Mr. Cedomir Vila represented the SDP party, did he not?

Page 12638

1 A. As far as I can remember, that is correct.

2 Q. And he was a Serb, of Serb ethnicity?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. You mentioned oil again a moment ago. You said that there was no

5 oil for the hospital in your evidence in chief, and this was at page 18.

6 Do you know who made the decision that oil would go to the police and the

7 Omarska camp, but not the hospital?

8 A. No, madam.

9 Q. You also testified at page 21 that there was an increase in the

10 wounded, but a decrease in the number of persons to provide health care.

11 This was at the same time as Croat and Muslim doctors were being dismissed

12 and arrested and taken to the camps, was it not?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. You also said earlier that there were no major incidents that

15 occurred at the hospital in relation to unauthorised people entering the

16 hospital. And this was at page 22. Do you know of an incident involving

17 Zoran Zigic, a taxi driver, where he entered the hospital and shot a

18 non-Serb in the chest -- I'm sorry, he didn't shoot him; he stabbed him.

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. He was never arrested or prosecuted for this, was he, to your

21 knowledge?

22 MR. LUKIC: Objection, Your Honour.

23 A. I don't have that information.

24 MR. LUKIC: This question is not based on the facts, and it's not

25 true.

Page 12639

1 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: You want to respond.

2 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, it is based on facts, and it was put

3 to the witness and he agreed with it.

4 MR. LUKIC: He said "I don't have that information." And I think

5 that you have the information that Mr. Zigic was prosecuted for this

6 criminal act.

7 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: I think we need not go into further dispute

8 because the witness clearly stated, "I don't have that information." So

9 may I ask --

10 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, I was -- I'll move on.

11 Q. Dr. Iglic, you stated a moment ago, and this is at page 29, that

12 Dr. Stakic didn't refuse the political office and had times been

13 different, he wouldn't have taken up a career in politics. Are you aware

14 that Dr. Stakic entered politics of his own volition, that he founded

15 Omarska branch of the People's Radical Party Nikola Pasic? Are you aware

16 of that?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Are you aware that Dr. Stakic was the first president of the

19 People's Radical Party Nikola Pasic?

20 A. No.

21 Q. In the municipality of Prijedor.

22 A. I'm sorry. What was the question? Is this a new question or did

23 you just rephrase the previous one?

24 Q. I did. And it was very disjointed. Are you aware that Dr. Stakic

25 was the first president of the People's Radical Party Nikola Pasic in the

Page 12640












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13 English transcripts.













Page 12641

1 Prijedor Municipality?

2 A. No.

3 Q. And that he was a deputy for the Municipal Assembly on the SDS

4 list?

5 A. That, I am aware of.

6 Q. And that he was appointed vice-president --

7 A. No, I didn't know that he was a member of the SDS. No. I'm

8 sorry, I apologise.

9 Q. You're not aware that he was appointed vice-president of the SDS

10 in September 1991?

11 A. No.

12 Q. And that he took over the position of president of the Municipal

13 Assembly after the takeover?

14 A. I know that.

15 Q. That Dr. Stakic was president of the Crisis Staff, the Prijedor

16 Crisis Staff?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Are you aware that Dr. Stakic became president of the municipality

19 again after the war?

20 A. I'm sorry. Could you please repeat the question. I have problems

21 with this connection, with the line. So I have missed parts of your

22 question.

23 Q. Okay. My last question was this: Do you know that Dr. Stakic

24 became president of the Prijedor Municipality again after the war?

25 A. No, ma'am.

Page 12642

1 Q. If all these things were true that I've just put to you about

2 Dr. Stakic's political career, would they change your opinion about his

3 political ambitions?

4 A. I believe that there's no physician should enter into politics,

5 and I believe the same of Dr. Stakic. I believe that his involvement in

6 politics was a mistake. He should have stuck to medicine.

7 Q. And finally, Dr. Iglic, were any of your friends or colleagues

8 mistreated, arrested, or detained in any of the camps in the Prijedor

9 Municipality between May and September 1992?

10 A. Yes, ma'am.

11 Q. Can you name them for the Court, please.

12 A. My colleague Dr. Esad Sadikovic.

13 Q. Do you know what happened -- what happened to him?

14 A. After the war, I have learned that he was no longer among the

15 living.

16 Q. Can you name any other of your friends or colleagues that were

17 mistreated or detained.

18 A. Among my colleagues, I don't know of anybody. But I heard there

19 was Dr. Osman Mahmuljin, and a Dr. Nevad Basic was in Trnopolje. He was

20 the youngest of my fellow ENT doctors from the department of

21 otorhinolaryngology in Prijedor.

22 Q. Do you know of any crimes that these people committed which would

23 have resulted in their detention in one of these camps?

24 A. No.

25 Q. You said earlier, Dr. Iglic, that you knew Muhamed Cehajic. In

Page 12643

1 the meetings that you had with Dr. Stakic, did you ever ask him about

2 Muhamed Cehajic?

3 A. No.

4 MS. SUTHERLAND: If I can have a moment, Your Honour.

5 [Prosecution counsel confer]


7 Q. Dr. Iglic, in any of the conversations that you had with

8 Dr. Stakic, did he ever ask about what happened to these doctors that

9 you've just mentioned?

10 A. No.

11 MS. SUTHERLAND: Thank you. I have no further questions.

12 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Thank you.

13 Questioned by the Court:

14 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: I have only one question. You mentioned on

15 page 36, line 5, that Dr. Esad Sadikovic was no longer among the living,

16 as you told us. Later, you stated that you are not aware that Dr. Esad

17 Sadikovic ever was a suspect of having committed a crime. So the question

18 before us is always the same: Why was it that Dr. Esad Sadikovic

19 disappeared and is no longer among the living? I think, as a colleague of

20 yours, you have given some thoughts to this question.

21 A. Yes. If I may, I will explain.


23 A. Dr. Sadikovic was a colleague of mine, and also a friend of mine.

24 We visited either other. He was my friend. He was a joker, and he was a

25 very professional, skillful doctor. I don't even want to think about his

Page 12644

1 possible crimes. And as of his disappearance and of his tragic lot, I can

2 only say that this has had a huge impact on me, and I still feel the

3 sadness for the fact that he is not amongst us, that I don't have the

4 opportunity to be friends with him any longer. I simply was not in the

5 position to help him in any way. I was not in a position to find out

6 where he was at the moment when he disappeared nor what happened to him.

7 All the information that I have about his lot I had after the war.

8 Dr. Sadikovic disappeared. I don't know when. I can only assume that it

9 was at the beginning of the war.

10 But to this very day, it will happen to me that I see somebody who

11 looks like him, and I will hope that it will be him because we were not

12 just colleagues; we were really good friends. So I always mistake other

13 people for him, wishing that it was him.

14 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Did you ever have an opportunity, maybe later,

15 even after the war or maybe in 1992, to discuss the fate of your common

16 colleague, Dr. Esad Sadikovic, with Dr. Stakic?

17 A. No, I didn't have such an opportunity.

18 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Thank you. Now I may pass the floor to

19 Judge Vassylenko, please.

20 JUDGE VASSYLENKO: Dr. Iglic, you described the position of the

21 president of the Municipal Assembly as ceremonial one. Then why you

22 discussed the practical problems related to the health care with

23 Dr. Stakic?

24 A. By coincidence, the president of the municipality was a

25 physician. I've tried to explain why we went to see him. We relied on

Page 12645

1 humanitarian sources for supplies, for the hospital. And it is only

2 logical that in such a position we, so to say, abused Dr. Stakic's

3 position. The humanitarian aid at that time arrived in Prijedor after

4 contacts with the president of the municipality, the president of the Red

5 Cross. And they were at the source of the information on the humanitarian

6 aid.

7 The reasons are simple. Anybody who came from abroad to bring

8 humanitarian aid would be received by the president of the municipality.

9 That is why I contacted the president of the municipality, knowing that

10 anybody who had arrived with the humanitarian aid would have contacted the

11 president of the municipality first, or any other officials of the

12 municipality. They were the ones who could tell me if anything had

13 arrived or what had arrived. And that is why I, so to say, abused

14 Dr. Stakic, who was my fellow physician and who happened to be the

15 president of the municipality.

16 I don't know what other explanation I can offer to you.

17 JUDGE VASSYLENKO: Why didn't you address to Dr. Kovacevic, who

18 was the president of the Executive Board of the municipality?

19 A. Dr. Kovacevic worked with me, and he was the end user of the same

20 medical supplies from the humanitarian aid. I told you already that at

21 the beginning, we had enough medicines and supplies because we had stocks

22 from the JNA.

23 Later on, from different parts of the world, from Greece, Germany,

24 Switzerland, the nations arrived. We had a huge supply of medical

25 necessities from France. This was partly used and partly it was

Page 12646












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 12647

1 incompatible with all the equipment that we had at the time. So it is

2 then logical. Dr. Kovacevic was the end user of the same supplies that I

3 used. We both used the same things. And it was not up to Dr. Kovacevic

4 to obtain any of those supplies. And I'm sorry to say, but Dr. Kovacevic

5 at the time when he was the president of the Executive Board also worked

6 as an anaesthesiologist in the hospital. I believe that I've already said

7 that in my testimony.

8 I've already -- I also told you that I would sometimes ask him to

9 assist me with an operation, which he would do first thing in the

10 morning. And he would help me as an anaesthesiologist on my team when I

11 performed operations.

12 JUDGE VASSYLENKO: Dr. Iglic, are you aware that in the 1980s, at

13 the beginning of the 1990s, the position of the president of Municipal

14 Assembly ex officio was the position of the president of people's Defence

15 council?

16 A. No. At that time I was in no way --

17 JUDGE VASSYLENKO: Thank you. I have no further questions.

18 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Judge Argibay, please.

19 JUDGE ARGIBAY: Thank you.

20 Dr. Iglic, good afternoon. I have a couple of questions for you.

21 You told us earlier that you were surprised on the morning of April the

22 30th about the takeover by the SDS in Prijedor. Have I understood you

23 correctly?

24 A. Yes.

25 JUDGE ARGIBAY: Weren't you aware that the SDS had already formed

Page 12648

1 a Serbian Municipal Assembly in January 1992 in Prijedor?

2 A. No.

3 JUDGE ARGIBAY: Weren't you aware that the deputies -- the

4 municipal deputies from the SDS had abandoned the Municipal Assembly in

5 Prijedor before that time?

6 A. No. If my memory serves me well.

7 JUDGE ARGIBAY: But you were a deputy at that moment. Do you

8 remember which assembly session was the last one you attended?

9 A. I believe it was the session during which there was a discord and

10 disagreement about the appointment of a candidate to an office in the

11 police. And this is the session that I left because it lasted way too

12 long, and it was difficult for me to sit there for hours on end and listen

13 to the parties arguing forever. I listened to the session in my car on

14 the radio in my car. My car was parked in the parking lot behind the

15 national theatre.

16 JUDGE ARGIBAY: And what was the outcome of the long session?

17 A. I believe that the outcome was actually the interruption of the

18 session, and that after that, the assembly never met again in its full

19 composition.

20 JUDGE ARGIBAY: Do you remember the date?

21 A. No, Your Honour.

22 JUDGE ARGIBAY: Nor approximately the month or something? Was it

23 the end of 1991, beginning or 1992 more or less?

24 A. It may have been the autumn of 1991. I don't think it was winter

25 or early spring. However, I reserve the right to say that I'm not sure

Page 12649

1 about the time.

2 JUDGE ARGIBAY: Thank you. I have no more questions.

3 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Any questions in return by the Defence?

4 MR. LUKIC: Only two, Your Honour.

5 Further examination by Mr. Lukic:

6 Q. [Interpretation] Dr. Iglic, that's me again. You have mentioned,

7 or somebody has mentioned the name of Mr. Nikola Pasic, which gave the

8 name to Dr. Stakic's party. Are you aware that Dr. Nikola Pasic was the

9 first prime minister of the first Yugoslavia?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. My second question has to do with one of your remarks. When you

12 compared the Municipal Assembly of Prijedor with the theatre, and at the

13 same time sessions of the assembly were held in the theatre --

14 A. I apologise for the interruption.

15 Q. You said that the representatives of the Muslim people were

16 sitting on one side of the theatre.

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Does that mean that these benches were occupied by the Muslims who

19 belonged to other parties, not only to the SDA?

20 A. Yes. The then president of the Municipal Assembly of Prijedor

21 belonged to the party of entrepreneurs, and he was also sitting on that

22 side.

23 Q. Can you tell us his name, although I believe that we all know his

24 name.

25 A. Mr. Murselovic, a friend of mine.

Page 12650

1 Q. Thank you very much, Doctor. I have no further questions.

2 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] And I also thank the Honourable

3 Chamber.

4 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Any questions by the Prosecution?

5 MS. SUTHERLAND: No, Your Honour.

6 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: This is not the case. Then I have to thank you,

7 Dr. Iglic, for coming to the office and to testify in this case, assisting

8 us in coming closer to the truth. Thank you very much. And this

9 concludes today's videolink. And may I just Madam Dahuron, can we

10 continue as scheduled with the witness tomorrow?

11 [The witness's testimony via videolink concluded]

12 THE REGISTRAR: [Banja Luka] Yes, Your Honour, Witness number 30.

13 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Sorry, once again, please.

14 THE REGISTRAR: [Banja Luka] Yes, Your Honour. We will proceed

15 tomorrow with Witness Number 30.

16 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Okay. And final question to Madam Dahuron, what

17 about the additional and final 92 bis statement? Is it on its way?

18 THE REGISTRAR: [Banja Luka] I will let you know as soon as

19 possible. It was rescheduled [Indiscernible] as soon as possible, Your

20 Honour.

21 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: I take it that it will happen, the one to be

22 taken in Banja Luka, during this week. Thank you very much also for all

23 the assistance in Banja Luka for providing us this videoconference in this

24 excellent quality. Thank you, this concludes the videolink.

25 I take it that Witness 077 is available. I think it would be

Page 12651

1 appropriate to have a short break now, and then to continue.

2 Any protective measures requested?

3 MR. OSTOJIC: No, Your Honour.

4 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Then the trial stays adjourned until 5.35.

5 --- Break taken at 5.16 p.m.

6 --- On resuming at 5.39 p.m.

7 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Please be seated.

8 [The witness entered court]

9 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Good afternoon, Mr. Rosic. Can you hear me in a

10 language you understand?

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I do. Good day. Thank you.

12 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: May we hear your solemn declaration, please.

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you. I solemnly declare that

14 I will speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

15 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Thank you. Please, sit down.

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

17 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: You are called as a witness for the Defence.

18 May I, therefore, give the floor to the Defence. Mr. Ostojic, please.

19 MR. OSTOJIC: Thank you, Your Honours.


21 [Witness answered through interpreter]

22 Examined by Mr. Ostojic:

23 Q. Mr. Rosic, good afternoon. My name is John Ostojic --

24 A. Good afternoon. I wish to greet this Court, this international

25 Court.

Page 12652

1 Q. Thank you, sir. As I stated, my name is John Ostojic, and along

2 with Branko Lukic, we represent Dr. Milomir Stakic. I'm going to ask you

3 a series of questions here today, so please be patient, and if there's a

4 question that you do not understand fully, ask -- or tell me so and I will

5 attempt to clarify that question for you so that you will fully understand

6 the question and give us your most truthful and honest answer. Is that

7 fair?

8 A. Yes, yes.

9 Q. For the record, can you please state your full name, first and

10 last name, please.

11 A. My name is Branko Rosic.

12 Q. May we have your date of birth, sir.

13 A. The 31st of January, 1936.

14 Q. Can you tell us where you were born and in which municipality.

15 A. In the village of Busnovi, municipality of Prijedor.

16 Q. Sir, forgive me for asking this question. What is your ethnic

17 background?

18 A. By ethnic background, I am a Serb.

19 Q. Can you tell us, sir, where did you reside in the spring and

20 summer of 1992.

21 A. In 1992, I lived in my area, and I was employed in the iron ore

22 mine of Omarska.

23 Q. The area in which you lived, in your area, is that also located in

24 the municipality known as the Prijedor Municipality?

25 A. Yes.

Page 12653

1 Q. Share with us, if you will, sir, your educational background. Did

2 you attend any school, and if so, can you please tell us which school and

3 when you graduated.

4 A. I went to primary school, and I attended secondary school. So I

5 have completed secondary school.

6 Q. And share with us, if you will, sir, briefly your employment

7 history and background. Where were you employed immediately after

8 completion of your educational studies?

9 A. It's a long time since I completed my schooling. I'm old now.

10 After my schooling, I started work, and I held several jobs. But at that

11 time, I was working in the Omarska iron ore mine. I was a pump operator,

12 operating the pumps and maintaining the pumps for water at deep levels and

13 surface water and drinking water and so on.

14 Q. We'll get to your employment at the iron ore mine in just a few

15 minutes. I'm just trying to obtain some quick background information so

16 that we can have a better appreciation of who you are. And thank you for

17 that.

18 Sir, with respect to any political affiliations, in 1990, were you

19 a member of any political party?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Can you please tell us which party you were a member and state for

22 us whether you were an active or passive member of that particular party.

23 A. Well, I was a passive member of the SDS.

24 Q. Did you, sir, attend regularly the meetings of the SDS from 1990

25 throughout any significant period of time?

Page 12654

1 A. No.

2 Q. Sir, can you tell us the time parametres in which you were

3 employed at the iron ore mine at Omarska, from what period of time to

4 approximately what period of time?

5 A. You mean the years, or how do you mean?

6 Q. Thank you.

7 A. From 1983, I worked in the Omarska mine.

8 Q. And sir, did you work in the Omarska iron ore mine in the spring

9 and summer of 1992 as well?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Just briefly share with us what your job duties and obligations

12 were while you were employed at the iron ore mine at Omarska.

13 A. I maintained the water system. I was the pump operator in the

14 mine.

15 Q. I'm going to take you to a period of approximately ten years ago,

16 the spring and summer of 1992. And I would respectfully ask that you

17 concentrate on that period of time for the purposes of my next following

18 questions. With respect to the iron ore mine, sir, did you continue to be

19 employed there under your regular employment duties or was there a work

20 obligation that was issued to you to work at the iron ore mine as a

21 pumper, as you state, maintaining the water system in the summer of 1992?

22 A. Yes.

23 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Would you please repeat the question, because

24 due to the fact that you put several questions together, the "yes" is not

25 quite clear to which part.

Page 12655

1 MR. OSTOJIC: I apologise. I think it's probably the first time

2 I've done that, so my apologies to the Court.

3 Q. Sir, let me ask the question if I may once again. Did you in the

4 summer of 1992 receive a work obligation to continue to work at the

5 Omarska iron ore mine?

6 A. Yes. I had a work obligation, and I worked throughout this period

7 in the mine.

8 Q. And the period specifically we're interested or that I'm

9 interested in is the period of time that there were detainees at the iron

10 ore mine in the summer of 1992. Is that when, sir, you were under a work

11 obligation?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. I'm going to be a little more specific with my questions now.

14 Sir, we've established essentially that approximately the end of April,

15 April 30th, 1992, there was a takeover in the Prijedor Municipality. Did

16 you continue to work in the iron ore mine after April 30th, 1992?

17 A. Yes. I continued working there.

18 Q. To the best of your recollection, sir, do you know when detainees

19 were brought to the iron ore mine in the summer or spring of 1992? And if

20 you don't know the exact date, I believe we can understand that. Can you

21 give us the approximate date in which you recall that detainees were

22 brought to the iron ore mine?

23 A. They were brought there approximately towards the end of May,

24 around that time. But I can't tell you the exact date.

25 Q. Let's for my next several questions just use those milestones that

Page 12656

1 you have set for us, the end of April, April 30th, 1992, up until the time

2 that the first detainees were brought to the iron ore mine, as you stated

3 "towards the end of May 1992." During that period of time, sir, did you

4 continue to work in the same fashion that you had prior to April 30th,

5 1992?

6 A. Yes, yes. I continued to work. I had a work obligation, and I

7 continued working as usual. I continued doing the same job that I had

8 done before that. I operated the pumps, maintained the water system, and

9 I just stayed there and worked as I had before.

10 Q. During that three- or four-week period that we've established

11 here, was there any changes in the iron ore mine at all before the

12 detainees came? Was there any plan or organisational structures that were

13 changed during that three- to four-week period?

14 A. There were some changes. There were some changes. People didn't

15 show up for work, people of other ethnic groups. They failed to turn up

16 for work for a time. I don't know why. But that's how it happened.

17 Q. Now, let's discuss if we will changes in the physical structure of

18 the iron ore mine during that three- to four-week period, were there any

19 actual changes to the physical structure of the iron ore mine, such an

20 erection of a fence, such as removal of certain material outside or inside

21 to make accommodations for any particular rooms? Were any types of those

22 things done within that three- to four-week period at the iron ore mine?

23 A. No, nothing happened. No changes took place. Everything remained

24 normal. Everything was the same as before except that people didn't come

25 to work regularly. So I don't know what happened because of that. But

Page 12657

1 something started. I don't know.

2 Q. Staying with this time period, if we may, did there come a time

3 within that three- to four-week period -- let me strike that and start

4 from the beginning. During this three- to four-week period, did the

5 military or the police begin to make any preparations in the iron ore mine

6 at Omarska where you worked and where you continued to be gainfully

7 employed on a regular and continuous basis?

8 A. No preparations were carried out according to me. We worked in

9 shifts. And during my shift, I didn't notice any preparations. But I had

10 a 24-hour shift, and then I would be off for 48 hours.

11 Q. Now, sir, with respect to the period that the detainees were being

12 brought to the Omarska iron ore mine, were you, sir, present when the

13 detainees were initially brought to the iron ore mine in the spring and

14 summer of 1992?

15 A. Yes, I was present when they were brought in.

16 Q. And you stated, I believe, that that was sometime at the end of

17 May 1992. Correct?

18 A. Yes, about then, the end of May.

19 Q. Can you tell us, sir, who brought the detainees to the iron ore

20 mine.

21 A. The detainees were brought by the army.

22 Q. During that day, when you first saw the detainees being brought to

23 the iron ore mine by the military -- or army it's quoted as saying, did

24 anyone notify you, sir, in advance that detainees would be brought to the

25 iron ore mine?

Page 12658

1 A. No. Nobody said anything about me. I knew nothing about it. I

2 only saw them when they arrived in buses. People were objecting,

3 protesting. People didn't want them to be brought to the mine. But the

4 military did what they wanted. That's how it was.

5 Q. Can you tell me, that day when the detainees were brought, sir,

6 how many and in what mode -- strike that. Let me break down the question

7 so I don't ask a compound question here. Sir, that day when you saw the

8 initial detainees come into the Omarska iron ore mine, how did they

9 arrive? I know you said the bus -- a bus. Correct?

10 A. Yes, in buses.

11 Q. Do you know how many buses on that initial day came with detainees

12 to be placed in the iron ore mine?

13 A. There was more than one bus. About 20, but I didn't count them,

14 so I couldn't tell you the number. There were many buses.

15 Q. Thank you. At that time, sir, did you notice what the military

16 force was in terms of the number of personnel that they had? How many

17 military men were transporting these detainees to the iron ore mine?

18 A. There were many of them.

19 Q. At that time, or at any subsequent time, sir, were you asked or

20 instructed and ordered to wear a certain type of insignia or designation

21 in order for the military to know you and differentiate you from the

22 detainees?

23 A. Yes. We wore white armbands on one arm. We had white armbands so

24 that we could be recognised. There were a lot of military around. And

25 this enabled me to go to my workplace. I had to have this armband, and

Page 12659

1 then I was able to go to my place of work.

2 Q. Just in order to set another time line or milestone, can you tell

3 us from the end of May when the detainees first arrived, to the best of

4 your recollection, when did the detainees -- when were they moved out of

5 the iron ore mine in Omarska?

6 A. They started taking them away maybe -- well, they were there for

7 maybe two months or a month and a half, and then they took them off, I

8 think, to Manjaca or somewhere like that. And then some buses went, but I

9 don't think they all went. Quite a few of them went on that occasion.

10 Q. Utilising that period of time, end of May to the period when you

11 said that they were essentially moved -- during that period of time, sir,

12 did you continue to regularly and continuously work at the iron ore mine

13 in the same capacity as you had prior to the end of May 1992? In essence,

14 did you continue to maintain and operate the water system at the iron ore

15 mine?

16 A. Yes, yes, I did.

17 Q. Did you likewise, sir, continue to work in the same shift that you

18 described earlier, namely, 24 hours working, 48 hours off?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Now, in terms of getting a better appreciation for what you did

21 during this time period, maintaining the water pumps at the iron ore mine,

22 did you have to leave the complex where the detainees were in order to

23 perform your duties and obligations in the capacity in which you've

24 described?

25 A. Yes. Yes, I continued doing my work as usual. Because of the

Page 12660

1 nature of those times, I had to move along a certain route. There were

2 pumps that were quite far away, 2 kilometres away. There were surface

3 pumps and deep-level pumps, and then we also had pumps for drinking

4 water. Sometimes there were accidents or pumps broke down or had to

5 fixed, so we would go and fix them. The locksmith then went along with,

6 and we looked after the pumps.

7 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please, sir.


9 Q. During the period that the detainees were at the iron ore mine,

10 who was maintaining or providing the security for the iron ore mine?

11 A. The police did, the police.

12 Q. Was there any military presence during the time that the detainees

13 were at the iron ore mine in the spring and summer of 1992?

14 A. Yes, there was a military presence, but there was also the police.

15 Q. Can you tell us, sir, during that time period when the detainees

16 were in the iron ore mine, was there water provided to them and was there

17 water available to people at the iron ore mine?

18 A. Yes, water was available in the Omarska iron ore mine. But when a

19 pump broke down, then we -- water was brought in in tank trucks, and they

20 would use that while the wells were not being used. We also had

21 industrial water, and we had drinking water. We had all types of water.

22 Q. Sir, during the time that the detainees were at the iron ore mine,

23 did they, from time to time, utilise the drinking water that was available

24 at the iron ore mine?

25 A. Yes.

Page 12661

1 Q. Would it be fair, sir, to say that the detainees drank the same

2 water that you drank while you were working there on the 24-hour shifts

3 that you've described previously?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Let me ask you, sir, during this shift that you work of 24 on and

6 48 off, what were your sleeping accommodations?

7 A. We slept in the electric workshop, on the work benches that were

8 there. That's where we pump operators and locksmiths and electricians

9 slept usually when we were on duty.

10 Q. With respect to the food, sir, tell us, first, whether or not

11 there was any food provided at the iron ore mine during the period of time

12 that the detainees were there in the spring and summer of 1992?

13 A. Food was delivered. And they had food. But the kitchen was in

14 Omarska, and food was brought from there for the detainees. It was the

15 same kitchen, so the same food was brought in for them and for us. The

16 kitchen was in Omarska, and the food was brought in.

17 Q. Would it be fair, sir, to say that the detainees ate the same food

18 that you ate while you were working on the 24-hour shift that you

19 previously described?

20 A. Yes, yes, we had the same food.

21 Q. Sir, do you know a person by the name of Miroslav Kvocka?

22 Correct?

23 A. Yes, I know him. I testified two years ago for Miroslav Kvocka.

24 Q. And we understand that, and I believe the Court has been provided

25 with that prior testimony. My question to you, if you can describe for us

Page 12662

1 once again the incident involving Mr. Kvocka, what occurred, and tell us

2 whether you observed it and then describe for us to the best of your

3 recollection what is it that you observed?

4 A. I observed that people were brought in in buses. They started

5 getting off and lining up. A soldier ran up. There was commotion. And

6 he started shooting at the people. Kvocka stood in front of them, spread

7 out his arms, and said "Don't shoot. You'll kill the people." I was

8 there. I saw him standing there. And this soldier, I don't know who he

9 was, started shooting. I don't know what happened to the soldier

10 afterwards, but they took him away. And then they took care of things.

11 There were dead and wounded. I could see that. They took the wounded for

12 treatment. Kvocka called in an ambulance. So he sent the wounded people

13 off to hospital. That's what I know about it.

14 Q. And sir, at other occasions, did you have the unfortunate

15 opportunity to view corpses or dead bodies in or around the iron ore mine

16 in the spring and summer of 1992?

17 A. Yes, yes, I did see a few corpses.

18 Q. Did you, sir, determine or ask how it was that there were corpses

19 at the iron ore mine in the spring and summer of 1992?

20 A. I couldn't establish that. I didn't approach them to see better.

21 I wasn't allowed to approach them. It was the military who took care of

22 all that. So I couldn't do anything.

23 Q. Were there restrictions placed upon you as to where you can move

24 within the iron ore mine in the spring and summer of 1992?

25 A. Oh, yes, yes. There were restrictions as to where we could move.

Page 12663

1 We couldn't move around. We had to stick to the route that would take us

2 to the place where we had to work. But we couldn't wander around.

3 Q. With respect to the water that you provided to the iron ore mine

4 in the spring and summer of 1992, were you ever, sir, ordered or

5 instructed not to provide water for the detainees at the iron ore mine at

6 that time or at any time?

7 A. Water was delivered regularly. We had to supply water regularly.

8 I've already said that when pumps broke down, drinking water was brought

9 in in tanks, in tank trucks. And we all used that water until the

10 breakdown was fixed. We had a well, but if a pump broke down, we would

11 have to repair it. And then we would have to bring in water. That's what

12 we did.

13 Q. Sir, turning to another subject if I may, I couldn't help but

14 notice that you smiled and waved over to us when you arrived in this Trial

15 Chamber. Can you tell us how it is that you know Dr. Milomir Stakic?

16 A. How could I not know him? He went to school with my son. They

17 are of the same generation. I've known him since childhood, since his

18 childhood. He comes from a good family. I was a little surprised to see

19 that -- to see what had happened. He was young, and he was appointed to

20 this office that he held. And, well, what happened happened. I can't say

21 much, but I know his family, and I knew him as a young man.

22 He was a good boy. He never -- he was never wild. He was never

23 involved in politics. I belong to an older generation, but I could see

24 how people behaved. And all I can say about him was that he was a good

25 man, a good boy, and he was good as a young man. And when he was

Page 12664

1 appointed president of the municipality, we were already practically at

2 war.

3 Q. Thank you. I'm going to try to break down the time period that

4 you knew Dr. Stakic. As you mentioned, you knew him as a child and you

5 knew his family. Can you tell us, sir, at any time during the period that

6 you knew Dr. Stakic as a child growing up, having an ability to appreciate

7 and know his family, was there ever a time period that Dr. Stakic or his

8 family exhibited any ill will, prejudice, or discrimination against

9 non-Serbs?

10 A. No. There was no discrimination on their part, nor did he ever do

11 anything like that. We were on good terms with his family. His father

12 and I were on good terms. There were no problems. I don't know what else

13 I can say. As for me, there's nothing more I can say. I can only tell

14 you all the best, and I abide by that.

15 Q. Thank you, sir. Let me go back and just ask you a couple more

16 questions about the Omarska iron ore mine, if I may.

17 With respect to the iron ore mine, was there a period of time when

18 the production ceased, and can you tell us when that was?

19 A. The production ceased immediately after the attack on Prijedor.

20 As soon as the attack on Prijedor started, the production ceased because

21 people stopped turning up for work, Muslims and other ethnic groups

22 stopped turning up for work. I didn't see them after that.

23 Q. Just based on the time line that we have previously established,

24 would that be approximately in late April to late May 1992?

25 A. Yes, that was the time range, between April and May. It was not a

Page 12665

1 long period of time, but in any case, that was the period of time when

2 changes were felt. People stopped coming to work. I didn't know why, I

3 just realised that there were no people. And those of us who stayed,

4 continued working. But the production ceased. We stopped exporting the

5 ore, and everything stopped. Only a few of us remained, and we maintained

6 the facilities. That was all.

7 Q. Clarify for us, if you may, whether and how it was that there were

8 two systems of water, one for industry and one for drinking, at the iron

9 ore mine, and explain if you will whether you maintained both.

10 A. I maintained both of the systems. I had a few colleagues working

11 with me. We worked in shifts. We had surface pumps, and we had the pumps

12 that were working in the depth. Those were down to 150 metres in the

13 ground. And we also had a big pump, 400 cubic metres of water was being

14 pumped out. I knew the system because that's where I worked. And the

15 pump for the drinking water was a little bit further from there, some 5 or

16 6 kilometres. From there we had a well from which we transported drinking

17 water to the mine. So those were the two types of water -- pumps. We had

18 a number of pumps. We had the pumps at the mine, and we had the pump for

19 the drinking water which pumped water from the well.

20 Q. Would it be fair to say, sir, that the industrial water with the

21 high pressure that you've just described, approximately 400 cubic metres

22 of water, that no one is able to drink that water for a number of reasons;

23 one being that the high pressurisation of that water, it would be unable

24 to drink, correct, because the water is coming out quite fast?

25 A. One couldn't drink that water. One could not use it because it

Page 12666

1 was mixed with the sand and particles of iron ore, and it was under high

2 pressure. The diameter of that pump was 20 -- 200 centimetres, and it was

3 under high pressure. We couldn't use it for drinking. We could only use

4 it for maybe washing the cars. It was definitely not the water that could

5 be used for drinking. We had drinking water, wells, that we used to pump

6 out the drinking water, and that is what we used then and it is still

7 being used for the drinking water.

8 Q. Thank you, Mr. Rosic. In light of the time, we'll have no further

9 questions.

10 MR. OSTOJIC: Thank you, Your Honours.

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

12 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: We thank you. Prosecution is prepared for

13 cross-examination?

14 MR. KOUMJIAN: I could start, Your Honour.

15 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Thank you.

16 Cross-examined by Mr. Koumjian:

17 Q. Mr. Rosic, just briefly regarding one of the last --

18 MR. KOUMJIAN: Excuse me, could I ask the usher to move the ELMO

19 so we have a line of sight.

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'll turn towards you so you can see

21 me better and I can see you better.


23 Q. Thank you, I appreciate that. Sir, Mr. Ostojic asked you whether

24 it was impossible to drink the high-pressure water because of the

25 pressure. Sir, if you took that water out and put it in a barrel, it's no

Page 12667

1 longer under pressure. Correct?

2 A. We never put them in barrels. We conveyed that water into the

3 river, Gomjenica. This was under a very high pressure. The capacity was

4 400 cubic metres an hour. And there's no way this water could be used for

5 drinking. There were other pumps for sludge that we used because they

6 were under lower pressure and they had a lower capacity. And it couldn't

7 be used for drinking. That water from that big pump could not be used for

8 drinking.

9 Q. You did not use it for drinking because it would have been

10 unhealthy and inhumane to give that water to someone to drink. Correct?

11 A. It wasn't used, not only because it was not humane. It was just

12 not usable. We didn't use it. I told you, we had a well where there was

13 drinking water, and then we would use tankers that -- to bring that water

14 from the well for the purposes of the kitchen and for drinking. The

15 industrial water was not for drinking. It could only be used for

16 industrial purposes and maybe for washing the cars. And in any case, that

17 was -- that was the water under very high pressure, and we didn't use it

18 for drinking. It was not drinkable.

19 Q. Was it used for washing cars in the vicinity of the garage? Is

20 that where the cars were washed?

21 A. We have a pump in a location called Praliste, the washing spot.

22 This is where we used to wash our industrial machines, the dumpers and

23 other machines. There was a pump there, and then you would switch it on.

24 There would be water coming under the pressure. And we used it to wash

25 the machinery and the vehicles, the dumpers, and the bigger-size vehicles

Page 12668

1 and transport means.

2 Q. And that was at the end of the hangar building. Would that be

3 correct, just past the hangar building, the pump?

4 A. Correct. Yes, it was outside the hangar, towards the mining

5 surface.

6 Q. Sir, did the guards that were -- the people that were guarding the

7 detainees, did they have access to that area? Could they wash their cars

8 with that pump?

9 A. They probably did. Actually, yes, they did wash their cars

10 there. I'm sure they used that spot to wash their cars when they had to

11 wash them.

12 Q. Thank you. Mr. Rosic, please tell us, what was -- what do you

13 remember about when the prisoners first arrived? Can you describe the

14 scene, the time of day, and what you recall about the first time you

15 realised that the Omarska mine was going to be used to detainee people.

16 A. I saw people being brought in. That's when I first saw them.

17 Otherwise, there was nothing there before. There were no preparations

18 underway. We didn't know anything. We didn't know that anything like

19 that would happen until the army brought in the people and just put them

20 there.

21 Q. So there were no changes that you noticed before that or no

22 confrontations between the army and the personnel at the mine before the

23 prisoners showed up on the buses. Is that right?

24 A. No, we didn't see anything.

25 Q. Were you mistreated or threatened in any way by the army or police

Page 12669

1 that showed up with the prisoners?

2 A. Well, we were not threatened by them because it was our work

3 obligation to maintain the facilities. We were all, so to say, elderly

4 people. Some of them were invalids, so they were not mobilised. They

5 didn't have any military engagement. We were told where we were to move.

6 We could move to the -- up to the pump, and we were marked, so we were --

7 they were able to recognise us. We had to behave the way they told us in

8 order to avoid any incidents. And that's how we behaved all the time.

9 Q. Did you continue to have the same supervisors? Did you continue

10 to consider yourself employed by the Ljubija mine company after the

11 prisoners arrived?

12 A. Yes, for a short period of time after that, and then I was

13 retired. I reached a certain age, so I worked for about a year or two

14 years after that.

15 Q. So during the time that the prisoners were there, you and the

16 other personnel from the mine continued to work for the mine maintaining

17 the equipment and providing basics such as water and electricity to that

18 facility. Correct?

19 A. Yes, we continued working. But the mine did not operate. We

20 maintained the facilities and that was all. There was actually no work

21 going on there, and it is the same situation until this very day. Things

22 are just being maintained, but nothing is happening. There are no

23 developments. The iron ore is not excavated. So the mine is at a

24 standstill. There's just a certain level of maintenance going on.

25 Q. Thank you. So just so I'm absolutely clear, I want to understand

Page 12670

1 that just during that time that the prisoners were there, from the end of

2 May until August of 1992, during all that time, did you continue to be an

3 employee of the Ljubija mine company? Was that your employer?

4 A. Our employer was Mirko Babic. He was the closest to us. And the

5 director of the mine was Tomo Vujicic at the time. And that's how things

6 were at the time.

7 Q. Okay. I'm not asking you your supervisors. I appreciate that

8 information. But these two men that you just mentioned were employees

9 also of the Ljubija mine company. Isn't that correct, all of you were

10 employees of the Ljubija mine company?

11 A. That is correct. But our immediate supervisor was Babic. He was

12 in the mine, and he was our supervisor of all of us who were doing the

13 maintenance. He was our immediate supervisor in the mine.

14 Q. Okay, thank you. Now, you said during your direct testimony that

15 the mine stopped operating after the attack on Prijedor. And I just want

16 to be sure I understand what you're talking about. When you say "the

17 attack on Prijedor," which event are you talking about? Well, let me

18 just --

19 A. Prijedor was attacked by other ethnic groups, by Muslims, I

20 suppose. Prijedor was attacked, and there was some sort of a

21 misunderstanding, some sort of an accident. I don't know what had

22 preceded all that. I don't know what happened before. That's what I

23 heard. I didn't see anything. I didn't see what happened. So I can't

24 give you the exact answer.

25 Q. Okay. Thank you. It helps what you've said because we know now

Page 12671

1 that that has been established as the 30th of May, that event.

2 Now, prior to that day, there already were prisoners in the camp,

3 correct, a few days before that?

4 A. No, there weren't any. Before that, there weren't any. The first

5 ones arrived in several buses. And before that, there were no detainees

6 in the mine. I was there, and I am sure of what I'm saying.

7 Q. Okay. Now, these buses, when they arrived that first time, did

8 you hear -- let me withdraw that and start again, sir. Did you hear about

9 an incident at the Hambarine, at a checkpoint Hambarine, on the 22nd of

10 May?

11 A. No, I didn't. I was not in the position to know that. I was

12 rather far away. I didn't go there. On the way to my workplace, I didn't

13 have to pass through that place, so I really don't know. I can't tell you

14 anything about that. It's a completely different thing.

15 Q. Okay. Thank you. Thank you for your clear answer. And there's

16 no need to explain yourself if you didn't hear about it, that's

17 sufficient.

18 Did you hear about the army's attack on Hambarine on the 23rd of

19 May and the attack on the Kozarac area on the 24th of May?

20 A. I heard. I heard that there was an attack. But I wasn't there. I

21 can't tell you anything about that. I know that this did happen, and the

22 war had already started. Let's be clear on that. It was already a war.

23 The war was going on, and things just started happening that way.

24 Q. Thank you. I'm not asking you to tell us anything you don't

25 know --

Page 12672

1 A. Thank you as well.

2 Q. Just so we can establish a time, isn't it correct that the

3 prisoners arrived after this attack on Kozarac, after the army's action in

4 the Kozarac area, the prisoners started arriving at the Omarska camp?

5 A. No, they didn't. The first detainees arrived in late May, towards

6 the end of May. That is when the first prisoners arrived. I remember

7 that there was nobody there before, and it was my shift when the first

8 buses arrived, and I saw them. Before that, I didn't notice anybody.

9 Q. Okay. Now, you said it was on your shift when the first buses

10 arrived. Prior to that, was there any military or police presence in the

11 camp, before the buses showed up?

12 A. No, nothing. From then onwards, the army came, the police, and

13 the guards. Before that time, there was nobody. On that day, I arrived

14 at the mine as every other day before that, and I was taken by surprise.

15 And then I heard that things had happened, some bad things had happened,

16 and that's when I saw the prisoners.

17 Q. What time of day would your shift begin? You said it was a

18 24-hour shift. From what hour --

19 A. In the morning. 7.00 in the morning is the time when I had to

20 show up for work.

21 Q. Thank you for that clear answer. So at 7.00 in the morning, one

22 day you showed up for work, and what time did these buses, the first group

23 of prisoners that you saw, arrive?

24 A. The buses had already reached the gate when I turned up for work.

25 They were already there. But they were still on the buses. The troops

Page 12673

1 accompanied them. They had reached the gate of the mine, so it was very

2 early that morning.

3 Q. Okay. Now, you talked about -- you testified in the Kvocka case,

4 as you told us, and talked about an incident where Mr. Kvocka had stopped

5 a soldier who was shooting at some men coming off the bus, buses. Was

6 this a different incident, a different group of buses, than the ones that

7 you saw that had first arrived at the camp? Was this a different day?

8 A. That was on the second day. A few buses came, and as the people

9 started getting off the buses, they were lined up. And all of a sudden,

10 all hell broke loose when an unknown soldier ran up to them. Later on, I

11 heard that somebody, a member of his family had been killed. He started

12 shooting at the line of people. He was then stopped. The police removed

13 him from the scene. That's what I saw on the second day.

14 Q. Okay. Thank you. Thank you for that answer. So it was a

15 different day. And do you recall that that day, your son was visiting you

16 in the Omarska facility? Is that correct?

17 A. Yes, that is correct. My son came to see what was happening

18 because I didn't come home. There was no -- nobody to replace me, so my

19 son went -- came to check on me. He came behind the hangar, behind that

20 building. He was worried because I didn't come home on time. He didn't

21 know that I -- that my shift had to be extended because there was nobody

22 to replace me.

23 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Sorry to interrupt you, Mr. Koumjian. That

24 there is no possibility of remaining doubts, you mentioned two -- and the

25 witness agreed, that there were two different days. The one day the buses

Page 12674

1 arriving, and then the incident two days later. And then you asked "was

2 it that day your son was arriving?" Was it the first day or two days

3 later?

4 MR. KOUMJIAN: Thank you, Your Honour.

5 Q. Your son was there the day that Mr. Kvocka stopped the soldiers

6 from shooting. Correct?

7 A. That is correct. That is exactly what happened.

8 Q. Thank you very much.

9 A. It was on that day. Thank you, sir. So much about that.

10 Q. Thank you for that clear answer. So on that day -- well, just

11 briefly, your son, his name is Milenko. Is that correct?

12 A. Yes. Milenko.

13 Q. What was Milenko -- where was he coming from? Did he have a job

14 or was he coming from your home? Was he a member of the police or

15 military?

16 A. He came home because he was a member of the police in Banja Luka.

17 He came home. He didn't find me at home. And that's when he decided to

18 come to my workplace to see where I was. That's how it happened.

19 Q. And at that time were you living in - forgive my pronunciation -

20 was it Busnovi, a village in the southeast of Prijedor?

21 A. Correct.

22 MR. KOUMJIAN: Perhaps the usher can just put the document S1 on

23 the ELMO just so that all of Your Honours can see where that is exactly.

24 Q. And Busnovi is there, after Omarska, if you travel southwest, you

25 go through Maricka and then Busnovi according to the map. Is that

Page 12675

1 correct?

2 A. That is correct, but just give me a minute.

3 Q. Actually, if you can turn to --

4 A. I can see Omarska, Maricka. I've found Busnovi. Tomasica is also

5 here.

6 Q. Sir, if you can just point to the map, not on the screen but on

7 this map on your right, sir. Then we can all see it on the screen. If

8 you point to the map on the right to Busnovi.

9 A. Well, this is Busnovi, this is Maricka, and this is Tomasica. You

10 can see it here. It's very easy to find these places on the map. This

11 is -- Tomasica is another village very close to Busnovi.

12 Q. Thank you for the help, sir. That's all we need on the map.

13 Thank you very much.

14 A. Thank you, sir. I was looking at the screen, and I didn't know I

15 was supposed to look at the map.

16 Q. That's fine.

17 MR. KOUMJIAN: Could the usher please move the ELMO back so I can

18 see the witness.

19 Q. Sir, now you said you were late that day. When your son arrived

20 about, what time of day was it? Was it still the morning? Was it in the

21 afternoon?

22 A. Well, must have been sometime in the afternoon, around noon or

23 after the noon. Sometime around that time. I was not looking at my

24 watch, because I didn't know at the time that somebody would ask me to

25 remember the time.

Page 12676

1 Q. That's perfectly understandable. And did you -- was this the day

2 of the attack on Prijedor that you mentioned when the non-Serbs attacked

3 Prijedor? Was this the same day?

4 A. Yes, the same day. It was that same day.

5 Q. So if you take it, sir, that we've established in this case,

6 through other witnesses and newspaper articles, that that was the 30th of

7 May, would it be correct that your shift had started on the 29th of May,

8 the day before?

9 A. I don't know. I believe that my shift was the first shift which

10 starts at 7.00, and we usually worked for 24 hours. And then we would be

11 off for 48 hours. And yes, it was my shift on that day. It happened on

12 my shift when the buses arrived. I was there. And it was my shift.

13 Q. Okay. I'm sorry. My confusion was I thought that you had been --

14 that your son came because you had stayed late on your shift, and that's

15 why your son had arrived that day. So am I mistaken about that? Or was

16 this incident that happened with Mr. Kvocka, was this after your regular

17 shift or during your regular shift?

18 A. Maybe I did stay late. I may have extended my shift. And my son

19 came to see what I was doing, what had happened to me, why I hadn't come

20 home. I extended my shift because there was no one to replace me. So I

21 think I must have extended it because when they arrived, I stayed on. I

22 would stay on for two or three shifts when it was necessary at the time.

23 There were times when I had to extend my shift if there was no one to

24 replace me. I couldn't just abandon my workplace.

25 Q. Okay. So thank you for trying so hard to recollect these things

Page 12677

1 that happened a long time ago. So if your shift started on the 29th, the

2 previous two days, you would have been off, the 28th and the 27th, and the

3 last day you would have worked before that would have been the 26th of

4 May. Is that correct? Does that make sense?

5 A. Yes, I was off.

6 Q. So the first group of prisoners that you saw would have arrived

7 the 26th of May. Correct?

8 A. I don't know whether this date is correct. I can't be sure. Was

9 it the 26th or the 28th? I don't know. I can't tell you the exact date

10 when it was because I didn't know I would need to know this. I didn't

11 know I had to remember these dates. I would have noted them down had I

12 known. But I can't be a hundred per cent sure whether it was the 26th or

13 the 28th. It's hard to tell.

14 Q. Certainly that's understandable. But it definitely was not the

15 same day that Mr. Kvocka stopped the soldier from shooting that the first

16 group of prisoners arrived. They had arrived before that. Correct?

17 A. No, it wasn't the same day. That was later. It wasn't on the

18 same day. I remember it was not the same day. It was later.

19 Q. Okay. Thank you.

20 Now, I understand you've just told us several times that you

21 didn't know you had to note it down. It's the first time you've had to

22 remember these dates. I presume, then, that aside from testifying in

23 Mr. Kvocka's case, you never were interviewed or testified in a court

24 about what you saw happen at the Omarska camp. In the Republika Srpska,

25 in Prijedor, Banja Luka, you never were interviewed by the police or were

Page 12678

1 asked to give testimony in a court. Is that correct?

2 A. You mean at home? You mean at home, or you mean here? No, no,

3 no, no one asked me to testify. Only in the Kvocka case here in this

4 Tribunal two years ago.

5 Q. Now, sir, you mentioned Mr. Kvocka. Is it correct that he was

6 dismissed from the Omarska camp several weeks after this incident?

7 A. Yes. Yes. Or he may have been moved to another place. But he

8 was no longer in Omarska. Kvocka was sent away somewhere else. He was

9 not in Omarska. I never saw him in Omarska any more.

10 Q. Do you know or did you hear anything about why it was that

11 Mr. Kvocka was taken out of his position at the camp?

12 A. I heard that he was replaced. Well, he had a wife of a different

13 ethnicity, and he had brought his brothers-in-law to stay with him, and

14 they noticed that. And they exerted pressure on him to bring them to the

15 collection centre, Kvocka. And then they moved him. They gave him a

16 different assignment. That's what I heard. And he had to bring them to

17 the centre. And then he was assigned to another duty. I don't know

18 where, but he wasn't there any more.

19 Q. So your understanding was that he was taken out of the camp

20 because of assistance he gave to brother-in-laws who were Muslim. Is that

21 correct?

22 A. That's correct, yes.

23 Q. Sir, in your work in the Omarska camp, did anyone warn you that

24 there were mines around the camp that you should avoid?

25 A. There were at some distance, around the petrol station. They told

Page 12679

1 us not to go there. There was a petrol station up there, and they put

2 something there. I didn't go there. I didn't have any need to go there.

3 And they said we weren't allowed to move there. But I wasn't interested

4 in that. I didn't go there. I used another route where the entrance to

5 the pit was. It was about a hundred metres down.

6 Q. Do you know when it was that those mines were placed at that

7 location?

8 A. No, I don't. I don't know. I didn't see that. I don't know when

9 they were put there. But we were told to move around at night because I

10 went, made the rounds of the pump at night as well, but I was told not to

11 go there.

12 Q. Thank you. Going back to this first group of prisoners that

13 arrived, not the time that Mr. Kvocka stopped the soldier, but the first

14 group of prisoners that arrived at the camp, I believe you said - am I

15 correct - that there were about 20 buses that arrived?

16 A. Yes, yes. About 20. I didn't count them. But there were about

17 20 buses, a long, long convoy.

18 Q. Thank you. And realising again that it's only an estimate, can

19 you give us an estimate of about how many people were on each bus, how

20 many prisoners?

21 A. I'm sure there were at least about 50, because the buses were

22 full. A bus can usually hold 50 or 60 people. These were large buses.

23 So it may have been that number.

24 Q. How were these people dressed, the people that were on the bus

25 that became the prisoners?

Page 12680

1 A. Some were in civilian clothes, and some were in uniform.

2 Q. Can you describe the uniforms that you saw.

3 A. Their uniforms were greenish. They had a different sort of

4 uniform. It was kind of greenish.

5 Q. Sir, did you see women in the Omarska camp when you were working

6 there?

7 A. Yes, there were women there.

8 Q. Where were the women held in the camp?

9 A. The women were in the administration building. They were held

10 separately. They had their own accommodation there.

11 Q. Were any of these women in uniform when you saw them?

12 A. I didn't see any. I didn't see any in uniform. But I never

13 visited them up there. I didn't need to go there, nor was I allowed to.

14 But they were there in separate quarters in the administration building.

15 Q. When you say you weren't allowed to, is it correct that you did

16 not have access to all parts of the camp; there were certain restrictions

17 placed on you by the police who were guarding the prisoners. Is that

18 correct?

19 A. No, I wasn't allowed to go there. They said, "You don't have to

20 go there," so they prevented me from going, although I had colleagues

21 there. But I wasn't allowed to go and contact them. No.

22 Q. Sir, for my next question, I'm going to ask you, if for any

23 reason, you'd rather say this in private session, so it's not public, just

24 let us know. Did you recognise colleagues, friends, neighbours among the

25 prisoners at the Omarska camp?

Page 12681

1 A. Yes, I did. Colleagues from work. There were colleagues from

2 work.

3 Q. Did you recognise any of the women that were held prisoner? And

4 again, if you'd like to give this in private session, it's not a problem,

5 if you don't want to name names in public.

6 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: I think to be on the safe side, let's go into

7 private session, please.

8 [Private session]

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 12682

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 [Open session]

14 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: This brings me to the core question of

15 tomorrow. Mr. Lukic, may I ask you, based on your contacts you had in the

16 meantime, what is your real time estimate for tomorrow's videolink?

17 MR. LUKIC: Your Honour, we scheduled this witness for Thursday

18 knowing that that's a short day knowing because he is the shortest witness

19 we have for the videolink. So we hope we will be able o finish Mr. Rosic

20 and the witness for tomorrow, tomorrow.

21 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: So this would mean that we start at 2.15

22 tomorrow with the videolink, and we try immediately afterwards to conclude

23 your testimony. So I would ask you to standby tomorrow, and I have to ask

24 you please refrain from any contacts. Don't speak about your testimony

25 with one of the parties, the Prosecution counsel or Defence counsel. And

Page 12683

1 in case, by chance, you meet any other person you know from the area or

2 related to your own testimony, please don't discuss what is part of your

3 testimony here in this courtroom. I think we can rely on you. So

4 therefore, we will then proceed tomorrow.

5 I have to mention, it shouldn't be forgotten, we have to conclude

6 tomorrow a quarter to 5.00. And in addition it shouldn't be forgotten

7 that there is a 65 ter (i) conference in Room M177 at 10.00 on Friday, 28

8 February.

9 Any further urgent matters to be resolved immediately? This is

10 apparently not the case. Mr. Rosic, I have to thank you very much.

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, too. I'm alone here. I

12 have no one to talk to. I'm the only witness here. And I can't hear

13 anything from anyone, nor do I need to hear. I know what I saw. I can

14 tell you that on my own. I abide by everything I said. I don't evade any

15 questions. I know what I know.

16 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Nevertheless, I wish you a nice evening here in

17 The Hague.

18 The trial stays adjourned until tomorrow, a quarter past 2.00.

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, too.

20 [The witness stands down]

21 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned

22 at 7.05 p.m., to be reconvened on Thursday,

23 the 27th day of February, 2003,

24 at 2.15 p.m.