Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 12735

1 Friday, 28 February 2003

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 2.18 p.m.

5 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Good afternoon to you. Good afternoon also to

6 Banja Luka.

7 Unfortunately, Madam Dahuron, we have to wait a second with the

8 start. There is something that has priority, but let's first call the

9 case, please.

10 THE REGISTRAR: Good afternoon, Your Honours, this is Case Number

11 IT-97-24-T, the Prosecutor versus Milomir Stakic.

12 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Thank you. And the appearances please for the

13 Prosecution.

14 MR. KOUMJIAN: Good afternoon, Your Honours. Nicholas Koumjian,

15 Ann Sutherland, and Ruth Karper.

16 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Good to see you again hoping you are fit. For

17 the Defence, please.

18 MR. LUKIC: Good afternoon, Your Honours. Branko Lukic for the

19 Defence today.

20 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Before we start, we have to take the necessary

21 arrangements, it's already Friday, for next week. Previously we heard,

22 already in deviation of our order, that four witnesses would be called

23 next week by the Defence. We received the amended proffer for Witness

24 Number 006. Unfortunately, only an hour ago I learned from the Victim and

25 Witness Unit that no additional witness would be called next week they

Page 12736

1 don't -- wouldn't have any names or coordinates and would nothing -- would

2 know nothing about the witnesses to come next week.

3 May I hear the submission of the Defence related to this problem.

4 MR. LUKIC: Yes, Your Honour, we have a written submission, so I

5 haven't delivered it yet. If the usher could be so kind...

6 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: The problem, no doubt, is that as we had it

7 previously when the Witness and Victims Unit has the correct coordinates

8 only late, then this could create an obstacle for hearing the witnesses.

9 And you yourself mentioned the problems with the necessary visa. Can you

10 give us some additional hints related to witness 055, 083, 043 in order

11 that the Victim and Witness Unit can prepare the necessary.

12 MR. LUKIC: Yes, Your Honour. In this written submission, we

13 tried to explain that -- and I think that the Court is aware of our

14 efforts to locate Mr. -- actually the Witness Number 055. And if we

15 are -- we do not locate him successfully by the next week, we'll withdraw

16 this witness from our list of the witnesses.

17 Witness Number 083 is still waiting for the permission of his

18 superiors.

19 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: And 043?

20 MR. LUKIC: 043 is issued the passport, or should be issued the

21 passport yesterday or today, as I was informed. So we will try to solve

22 his visa problem at the beginning of the next week. And we are aware that

23 we create problems for the Victim and Witness Unit, but that's only an

24 additional burden on us because we accepted to transport our witnesses

25 from the airport, to the airport. But these problems are really out of

Page 12737

1 hands right now. We cannot solve them differently other than accepting to

2 transport our witnesses back and forth.

3 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Would there be an additional witness available

4 for the end of next week?

5 MR. LUKIC: Hopefully, Your Honour, some of these remaining three

6 witnesses should be with us the next week.

7 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: As you mentioned yourself, granting a visa takes

8 five days. How can you believe that when you start the request for

9 obtaining such a visa only by Monday that Witness 043 could obtain the

10 necessary visa during the next week and at the same time arrive in The

11 Hague?

12 MR. LUKIC: Because with the assistance of the Victims and Witness

13 Unit, we were able previously to speed up now this process. And if it's

14 urgent, we learned that it can take only two or three days. Previously we

15 were warned that it takes five days. Yes, that's right.

16 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: May I ask you to contact during the break the

17 Witness and Victims Unit in order to give the necessary outstanding

18 coordinates to the unit, that they at least can prepare the necessary in

19 case there is no obstacle such as a nonpermission of the superior or the

20 nonobtaining of the visa. Because it's Friday and it's really the last

21 minute and the last possibility.

22 MR. LUKIC: Yes, Your Honour. Thank you.

23 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: May I hear some submissions on this issue by the

24 Prosecution.

25 MR. KOUMJIAN: Your Honour, we simply hope the Defence is going to

Page 12738

1 hold by its position to finish the case on time, because we're running out

2 of time with the two additional Court-called witnesses, the expert

3 witnesses, and we only have three more weeks before the end of the Defence

4 case. If possible, if the Defence could give us when they can an

5 indication of the remaining witnesses and the approximate order in which

6 they --

7 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: We have to come back to this. It's planned when

8 we have heard the witness via videolink. But absolute priority has to

9 hear the Defence witnesses, but I would ask the legal officer of the Trial

10 Chamber to start the emergency programme as soon as possible. I'll come

11 back to this issue later, what it means "emergency programme."

12 So we shouldn't waste the time and come back to you, Madam

13 Dahuron. The usual sound check. Can you hear us?

14 THE REGISTRAR: [Banja Luka] I can hear you perfectly. Can you

15 hear me?

16 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: It's a little bit difficult, but normally it

17 improves. In the meantime, could we see the entire office and could you

18 at the same time, please, escort the witness into your office. Thank

19 you.

20 [Witness testified through videolink].

21 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Good afternoon in Banja Luka. Can you hear me

22 in a language you understand here from The Hague?

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, yes, I can hear you

24 and understand you.

25 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Thank you for coming. And may I please ask you

Page 12739

1 to give us your solemn declaration.

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

3 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

4 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Thank you for this. You may be seated, please.

5 Before we start the examination as such, may I ask you, you're aware that

6 we are in public session now. Do you need any protective measures?

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I don't.

8 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Thank you. Then as to the fact that you have

9 been called as a Defence witness, the floor is yours, Mr. Lukic, please.

10 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honours.

11 Witness: SLAVICA POPOVIC RADIC

12 [Witness answered through interpreter]

13 Examined by Mr. Lukic:

14 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Witness.

15 A. Good afternoon.

16 Q. As you know, my name is Branko Lukic and along with John Ostojic I

17 represent Dr. Stakic before this Tribunal. Will you, please, for the

18 record, give us your full name?

19 A. Physician Slavica Popovic Radic.

20 Q. Will you tell us your father's name.

21 A. Dusan.

22 Q. When were you born, Dr. Popovic?

23 A. 2nd of July, 1960.

24 Q. And where were you born?

25 A. In Omarska.

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Page 12741

1 Q. And where do you live now?

2 A. In Omarska.

3 Q. Will you tell us your occupation.

4 A. I'm a physician, an MD, and I specialise in pediatrics.

5 Q. When and where did you graduate?

6 A. I graduated from the school of medicine in Zagreb in 1985.

7 Q. Will you tell us if you are married and whether you have any

8 children?

9 A. I am married. I have one child.

10 Q. Between 1990 to 1993, were you a member of a political party?

11 A. No, I was not.

12 Q. Are you a member of a political party now?

13 A. Now, I am a member of the democratic people's alliance.

14 Q. Will you tell us, after your graduation, where was your first job?

15 A. After I graduated, I was duty-bound to return to Omarska because I

16 had there a scholarship, so that I was an intern in the general hospital,

17 or rather the health centre in Prijedor, and the clinical centre in Banja

18 Luka.

19 Q. And when did you enroll in your specialisation course?

20 A. In 1990.

21 Q. And how long did it take?

22 A. Well, the first part of my specialisation training lasted until

23 1992. That is, until the conflict broke out. And then I was asked to

24 come back because we were under a labour obligation in Omarska. After a

25 while, I was allowed to continue with my specialisation training.

Page 12742

1 Q. So when you were summoned for your labour obligation, you did

2 that?

3 A. Had I not done that within five days, I would have lost my job.

4 Q. Did you ever work together with Dr. Milomir Stakic?

5 A. Well, yes, as of the moment when Dr. Milomir Stakic came to work

6 for our health institution, 1989, and for a part of 1990, that is, until I

7 went to start my specialisation.

8 Q. Will you tell us, what was the situation in your health

9 institution in Omarska at the time when you came to do -- when you came to

10 discharge your labour obligation? I mean medical supplies mostly.

11 A. The situation in the health institution in Omarska was very

12 difficult. Until then, there were sufficient personnel, both doctors,

13 paramedics and all the auxiliary personnel so that we could provide

14 adequate health protection to the civilian population around our centre.

15 However, a few months before I was summoned to come back medicines from

16 Prijedor from the central pharmacy, which supplied our health centre

17 pharmacy in Omarska, these medicines practically stopped arriving or

18 arrived in very small quantities so that our stocks of, be it medicines or

19 any other medical supplies, bandages and so on and so forth, were

20 drastically reduced.

21 Q. Apart from the shortage of medicines, what about other medical

22 supplies?

23 A. The same. There was a shortage of the medical supplies.

24 Q. At that time, were there also power outages?

25 A. Yes, there were.

Page 12743

1 Q. So how did your institution operate during power cuts?

2 A. At that time, when there would be no electricity, we could not

3 work simply we could not perform even elementary laboratory tests. We had

4 no electricity. The only solution, the only possible solution was to

5 accord priority to our health institution which meant that we would be

6 allowed to get our electricity via a generator.

7 Q. And to get the electricity in such a manner, did it mean that you

8 had to buy oil or some fuel for these generators, and how did you do that?

9 A. Well, we had to get the diesel since we were on the priority list,

10 and people were aware of the importance of health care and health

11 institution, the army allowed -- helped us to get the necessary fuel.

12 Q. Did you and when become a member of Kolo Srpskih Sestara --

13 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's comment, the charity

14 organisation.

15 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

16 Q. And will you tell us what its task was?

17 A. When the investigation centre in Omarska was founded, we needed

18 medicines and medical supplies. And one of the priority tasks of the Kolo

19 Srpskih Sestara and doctors, and I was one of the founding members of this

20 humanitarian organisation which was founded with the help of the orthodox

21 church, and there together with Dobrotvor cooperated with Caritas, which

22 is a Catholic humanitarian organisation, and Merhamet, which is the

23 Muslims' humanitarian organisation, our chief priority was to ensure the

24 supply of medicines from abroad.

25 Q. And were your efforts successful, and how many medicines did you

Page 12744

1 get from abroad and from whom?

2 A. Well, the effort invested was tremendous because on the one hand

3 you have a population with an increasing need for health care, the

4 ever-decreasing medicine supplies, so we usually approached our citizens

5 working abroad, and they sent us medicines. Often not adequately packaged

6 or stored, which because of long delays at the borders and very high

7 temperatures, frequently could not be used any longer once they reached

8 us. The army tried to help, and they gave us medicines and the necessary

9 medical supplies in quantities that they could afford.

10 Q. Do you know when did the conflict in Kozarac break out, and what

11 happened that day in relation to your institution?

12 A. Towards the end of April, I think. Was it April, May 1992? I'm

13 not quite sure. I'm not sure about the date. But whatever. The conflict

14 commenced. The first one was brought, but he died shortly afterwards. I

15 believe his name was Zeljko Zgonjanin. All the available medical

16 personnel from the area of Omarska were invited to the health centre

17 because we were anticipating a large -- a considerable number of wounded

18 and killed.

19 Q. Now, let's see this first. When this killed soldier, and you tell

20 us his name is Zeljko Zgonjanin, when he was brought to your medical

21 institution, were you on duty at the time or were you at home?

22 A. I was there, I was working because I had been on duty the previous

23 night.

24 Q. And after this soldier was brought, did you invite -- did you ask

25 the other personnel to come before or after the soldier was brought?

Page 12745

1 A. After he was brought.

2 Q. During the conflict in Kozarac, were all the wounded brought to

3 your medical establishment or only some, and if so, which ones?

4 A. Because of our ability or the potential we had to offer medical

5 assistance, we only had lightly wounded people brought to us. The more

6 serious cases were sent to Banja Luka.

7 Q. After the conflict in Kozarac was over, did people from Kozarac

8 come to Omarska; and if so, how did they come, and can you explain that to

9 us?

10 A. After the conflict was over, people were brought in buses in front

11 of the hall of culture in Omarska, there were many acquaintances amongst

12 them, friends. People were bringing, food, water, whatever they had, in

13 order to make the situation of these people a little easier, the situation

14 that they found themselves in.

15 Q. Could you tell us what the structure of the people was who were in

16 those buses, if you remember?

17 A. Children, women, and there were elderly men on board.

18 Q. And what happened to these people? Did they stay in Omarska or

19 did they continue on their way?

20 A. They didn't stay in Omarska. They went on.

21 Q. Do you know who transported those people?

22 A. No, I don't.

23 Q. In the building of the medical centre, or the Omarska clinic, did

24 Dr. Gajic, Slobodan, work there?

25 A. Not in the first few days after the outbreak of the conflict.

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Page 12747

1 After a few days, Dr. Slobodan Gajic came. He was a mobilised soldier.

2 And he said that he would be providing medical services to the detainees

3 in the investigation centre.

4 Q. Dr. Gajic, was he a civilian or a soldier?

5 A. A soldier.

6 Q. Do you know how often Dr. Gajic went to the Omarska investigation

7 centre?

8 A. He went every day, usually in the morning. If necessary, he also

9 went in the afternoon.

10 Q. Did Dr. Gajic also sleep at the medical centre?

11 A. Yes, he did. One of the rooms in the medical centre was given to

12 him as a room where he could sleep so that he was also available 24 hours

13 a day.

14 Q. Other than the fact that he slept there, was Dr. Gajic also

15 somebody who was a part of the medical centre, or was he just a member of

16 the army?

17 A. He was not a part of the medical centre. He didn't actually

18 provide medical assistance there. He was a member of the army.

19 Q. So Dr. Gajic did not provide medical assistance to people in

20 the -- on the premises of your medical centre?

21 A. No, this was done by our doctors and by our medical staff.

22 Q. And were prisoners brought from the Omarska investigation centre

23 to the medical centre?

24 A. Yes, this did happen. In urgent cases, patients were brought --

25 patients who had asthma attacks, difficulties breathing, or who had some

Page 12748

1 kind of kidney failure or high temperature. There were also some lightly

2 wounded cases while I was on duty. One gunshot wound. That wounded

3 person was somebody that I had sent for further surgical treatment to

4 Banja Luka.

5 Q. Were there people who had sustained beating injuries?

6 A. There were bruises, but mostly I saw people who had the usual

7 health problems, the ones that I mentioned, difficulties with breathing

8 and kidney attacks.

9 Q. Did you ever see anyone from the Omarska investigation centre who

10 had fractured bones?

11 A. No, I did not.

12 Q. You say that the person with the gunshot wound was sent for

13 further treatment to Banja Luka. You did that?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Did you need any approval from anybody in order to do that?

16 A. After primary care of the wound, I had to seek approval in order

17 to send the patient for further medical treatment. I called the police

18 station in Omarska so that they would contact the investigation centre and

19 ask whether I would be allowed to send the patient for further medical

20 treatment.

21 Q. So you personally were not able to directly contact the Omarska

22 investigation centre?

23 A. No.

24 Q. Was there a Crisis Staff in Omarska?

25 A. Yes.

Page 12749

1 Q. Did you ever receive any instructions from the Crisis Staff

2 relating to ill persons who were brought from the Omarska investigation

3 centre?

4 A. No, I did not.

5 Q. Doctor, did you provide medical assistance at the same time to the

6 population of Omarska and the neighbouring villages?

7 A. Yes, this was implied. We continuously provided medical

8 assistance to the population under extremely difficult circumstances.

9 Q. And your colleagues, were they mobilised at the time and sent on

10 duty outside of your medical centre?

11 A. My colleagues, men, were very quickly mobilised and sent to the

12 front. At one point, one doctor, a woman doctor, was also mobilised so

13 that there were only us two women doctors who remained at the medical

14 centre.

15 Q. Would you please be so kind and tell us the name of that woman

16 doctor who was mobilised at that time.

17 A. Her name was Dr. Brankica Rosic.

18 Q. Did you treat in the same way the people that were brought from

19 the Omarska investigation centre like the regular patients who came to the

20 medical centre?

21 A. Absolutely the same way, perhaps with even more attention because

22 of the place where they happened to be at that time. We provided

23 assistance to them and gave them medicines that we were not able to offer

24 to the civilian population.

25 Q. Did anyone ever tell you not to extend medical assistance to

Page 12750

1 people brought from the investigation centre or to give them lesser

2 quality care than provided to the other patients who came to your medical

3 institution?

4 A. Nobody ever told us that. The doctors have their code of conduct

5 and their ethics, and they know what they are supposed to do.

6 Q. Who brought the wounded from the Omarska investigation centre to

7 your medical institution?

8 A. Policemen.

9 Q. Did you know these policemen?

10 A. Some, yes; and some, no.

11 Q. Are you aware that they were mostly reserve police officers, or

12 were you not aware of that?

13 A. No, I wasn't aware of that.

14 Q. Do you remember how long you were carrying out the work duty at

15 the Omarska medical centre?

16 A. For about a year and a half.

17 Q. Did you ever leave the territory of Republika Srpska and Bosnia

18 and Herzegovina during the war?

19 A. Yes, during the war, I left the territory only once, the territory

20 of Republika Srpska of Bosnia and Herzegovina. I accompanied a patient

21 who was taken to a clinic in Belgrade.

22 Q. Did you have to have some special passes for that trip?

23 A. Yes, I had to have a movement permit.

24 Q. Do you know who obtained this permit for you when you accompanied

25 this patient to Belgrade?

Page 12751

1 A. I don't know who got that. The family, I think, of the patient

2 who wanted me to accompany the patient obtained this permit.

3 Q. You say that you didn't apply for this permit yourself, but do you

4 know which institution was the one to issue this permit in order to leave

5 the territory of Republika Srpska?

6 A. It was requested from the military department.

7 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: There's an objection on the part of the

8 Prosecution, please.

9 MR. KOUMJIAN: Yes, to relevance. First, we don't even know which

10 year of the four or five years of war that we're talking about.

11 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Would you please take this into account when

12 putting the question to the witness. Thank you.

13 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

14 Q. Dr. Popovic, you heard the objection from the Prosecution. Can

15 you please tell us, if you remember, in which period did you accompany the

16 patient to Belgrade?

17 A. This was not at the beginning of the war. There was a corridor,

18 and we were able to go to Belgrade. So perhaps this was then maybe in the

19 third year. But I'm not sure. I don't know exactly.

20 Q. In the second part when we were talking about the patients from

21 the Omarska investigation centre and we were talking about Dr. Gajic, I

22 assumed that we were talking about the spring/summer of 1992.

23 A. Yes, that's right.

24 Q. When we came back -- since we're back talking about Dr. Gajic, can

25 you please tell us if he shared his information with you? Did he tell you

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Page 12753

1 what was being done at the investigation centre? Was it his duty to

2 provide any kind of a report to you or to your medical institution?

3 A. No, he didn't have any duty or obligation to submit any kind of

4 report to our institution. We didn't talk -- I mean, he didn't ever tell

5 us anything about what was happening at the investigation centre.

6 Q. You say Dr. Gajic was available 24 hours a day.

7 A. Yes, that's right.

8 Q. This is in theory, but those --

9 A. To the health, to the health centre in Omarska. The health centre

10 in Omarska had an organised health service, an emergency service, regular

11 doctors on duty. And they provided regular health assistance, both during

12 the day and during the night.

13 Q. During these 24 hours that, as you say, Dr. Gajic was available

14 whenever he was giving medical assistance to the injured and the wounded,

15 he did that at the Omarska health centre and not at your institution. Is

16 that right?

17 A. I've already said that. Medical assistance at our institution was

18 provided by our doctors, those who were employed at the Omarska health

19 centre and those who were available.

20 Q. After the conflict in Kozarac when soldier Zeljko Zgonjanin was

21 killed, did you hear about the existence of a paramilitary formation

22 called El Manijakosi, and did you hear what they were saying, what they

23 said, after the death of this soldier?

24 A. Towards the evening hours, a group of people arrived. They were

25 armed, and they asked to see the soldier who was killed. When they were

Page 12754

1 taken to the room where Zgonjanin, Zeljko, was lying in, they lit a

2 candle, crossed themselves, and said "Don't be surprised if we want

3 revenge, and we will have our revenge." And they called themselves

4 Manijakosi.

5 Q. I would now like to ask you something about Dr. Stakic, about your

6 personal knowledge relating to your colleague. Could you please first

7 tell us how long have you known Dr. Stakic?

8 A. I've known Dr. Stakic since he was a student at the high school.

9 He was one generation after me. Serious, quiet, a withdrawn student as

10 well as an excellent student, an extremely good student. He comes from an

11 honest and poor family. Later, when I left for my medical studies in

12 Zagreb, he studied in Banja Luka, and we didn't see one another in that

13 period during our studies. I would occasionally see him in Prijedor.

14 When he began to work at our medical institution, he was a mature,

15 educated doctor who approached his work in the best possible way. He

16 performed his job conscientiously. The patients liked him very much.

17 Because he was young and he only started his career, he was asked to work

18 in local medical centres. He worked in Lamovita and Kevljani in the

19 medical health centres there, and he also worked on duty a lot.

20 Q. Could you please tell us the ethnic composition of the population

21 in these villages covered by Dr. Stakic?

22 A. Gornja Lamovita has a mixed population. Besides Serbian patients,

23 patients of other ethnic groups also came for medical treatment there.

24 They were mostly Muslims. And in the health centre in Kevljani, which was

25 in that local community, the population was Muslim.

Page 12755

1 Q. Do you know how Dr. Stakic was regarded in Kevljani?

2 A. I will give you just one example.

3 Q. Could you please tell us, if you remember, which year he worked in

4 Kevljani.

5 A. He began to work sometime in 1989, so that would be that year.

6 1989 to 1990, until the time I went off for my specialisation. So I don't

7 know what happened after that. But during that period, when he worked

8 there, he was a well-loved doctor in Kevljani. The people liked him and

9 were satisfied with his work. There were never any complaints about his

10 work.

11 When we wanted to have some other doctors come and work at that

12 infirmary, and I think there was a doctor who came after Dr. Stakic,

13 Dr. Ekrem Hodzic, we wanted to make it possible for him also to be on duty

14 at the infirmary for a while, so he could have that work experience there,

15 too, along with Dr. Stakic. The people from Kevljani did not want that.

16 The people from that local commune of Kevljani were extremely satisfied

17 with the work of Dr. Stakic, so that he was the only doctor -- or the

18 permanent doctor in that local commune.

19 Q. This new doctor who was supposed to be working there, could you

20 please tell us his ethnicity?

21 A. Ekrem Hodzic, yes, Ekrem Hodzic was a Muslim by ethnicity. But

22 he's a man who was not born in our region. He came there after he got

23 married, and the people didn't know him.

24 Q. You are from Omarska. Do you know which political party

25 Dr. Stakic belonged to in 1990 and 1991?

Page 12756

1 A. I know that he was the president of the people's radical party of

2 Veljko Guberina.

3 Q. Working with Dr. Stakic, did you ever notice him showing any kind

4 of hatred or intolerance towards other ethnic groups?

5 A. No, never. His work and what he did were characterised by a

6 professional expert approach, and he never differentiated amongst people

7 on ethnic grounds.

8 Q. In late 1992 or early 1993, did you hear that Dr. Stakic was

9 replaced as president of the Municipal Assembly?

10 A. Yes. We heard that he had been replaced.

11 Q. And do you know any details regarding this replacement?

12 A. I don't know any details. We weren't all that interested in that

13 at the time. Our role in all of that was different. We were fighting for

14 our survival.

15 Q. In regard to the Omarska investigation centre, I must ask you if

16 you ever went there to provide medical assistance to the prisoners in the

17 investigation centre itself.

18 A. No, I did not.

19 Q. Before Dr. Gajic came, who, as you said, was a soldier and was

20 mobilised and who worked at the investigation centre Omarska and provided

21 medical assistance to the detainees there, did any of your colleagues go

22 to the investigation centre to provide medical assistance?

23 A. As soon as the centre was formed, my colleagues went there,

24 together with other medical staff, and they provided medical assistance,

25 and they examined those who said that they needed medical assistance. And

Page 12757

1 then they went on the second day, so they actually went there on the two

2 days before Dr. Gajic's arrival.

3 Q. We mentioned the Crisis Staff that was operating in Omarska. Do

4 you know what the powers and the functions of this Crisis Staff were?

5 A. No, I don't.

6 Q. At that time, were you aware of the existence of the Crisis Staff

7 of the Prijedor Municipal Assembly? Did you hear about that?

8 A. Well, one could assume there was one such Crisis Staff, since

9 there was also an Omarska one, but I didn't know much about that.

10 Q. You don't know what its competencies would be?

11 A. No.

12 Q. Thank you, Dr. Popovic. This concludes our direct examination.

13 And now, you will be asked questions by our learned friends from the

14 Prosecution and Their Honours. Thank you very much once again.

15 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Thank you. The Prosecution is prepared for

16 immediate start of the cross?

17 MR. KOUMJIAN: Yes, Your Honour.

18 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Thank you.

19 The questions will now be put to you by Mr. Koumjian representing

20 the Office of the Prosecutor.

21 Cross-examined by Mr. Koumjian:

22 Q. Madam, you talked about doing an internship, and Dr. Stakic doing

23 an internship as part of your medical training. Can you explain to us

24 what this internship would consist of in Prijedor at the time that --

25 well, let's say that at the time Dr. Stakic did it, in 1989?

Page 12758

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1 A. No, I did not say that. After I finished the school of medicine

2 in Zagreb in 1985, I was duty-bound to do my internship lasting one year.

3 And I did that in the general hospital in Prijedor, that is, the emergency

4 service of the health centre in Prijedor and in the Banja Luka hospital.

5 And after my one-year internship, I went on working for the health centre

6 in Omarska.

7 Q. I'm sorry, madam. You misunderstood my question, and perhaps I

8 wasn't clear. First, and let me ask you, when did Dr. Stakic do his

9 internship, to your knowledge?

10 A. Dr. Stakic came to us in 1989, and I believe that he had already

11 finished his internship because before that, he had worked in Teslic, I

12 believe.

13 Q. When Dr. Stakic, you said, came to you, where do you mean that he

14 was working at the time, from 1989 until the -- through 1992? Where did

15 he work?

16 A. In 1989, he got a job with the health centre in Omarska and became

17 a full-time employee of the health centre. One of his tasks was the

18 emergency service, then duty, and also field practice in two clinics, in

19 two infirmaries, in Donja Lamovita and Kevljani. In 1990, sometime in

20 spring, I went for my specialisation to Banja Luka, and Dr. Stakic stayed

21 behind at the Omarska health centre. And I think that in early 1991, he

22 went to become the deputy president of the Municipal Assembly of Prijedor,

23 and thus stopped working for the health centre.

24 Q. Can you explain to us, would it be correct that the Omarska health

25 centre was a primary-care facility and that for those with more serious or

Page 12760

1 more complicated conditions, they were referred to the Prijedor or Banja

2 Luka health centres. Would that be correct?

3 A. You mean the civilian population?

4 Q. Yes.

5 A. Or the detainees? The civilian population, I see. The health

6 centre provides primary care. The secondary care is provided by the

7 general hospital in Prijedor, and above them is the Banja Luka centre.

8 What could not be done at our level, we would first send our patients to

9 Prijedor to the general hospital, and if the cases were too difficult, too

10 complicated for them, those were sent to Banja Luka to the clinical centre

11 there.

12 Q. In the case of a young doctor with relatively little experience,

13 is it common for those doctors to interact with more experienced

14 colleagues and more specialised colleagues in the treatment of patients?

15 A. Well, every physician in a health centre has his surgery, his

16 room, where he works, in which he examines and treats patients. But every

17 morning, after -- when people have come to work, there are consultations,

18 and the doctor on duty reports on the developments during the night when

19 experienced his exchange naturally with senior colleagues. And younger

20 colleagues who had come to work could, after internship, also ask for help

21 if necessary, to be helped in case of either establishing diagnosis or

22 treating more serious, more complicated cases.

23 Q. Would it be common, for example, for a general practitioner, as I

24 gather those at the health centre like Dr. Stakic were, to confer with

25 specialists such as cardiologists, gynecologists, obstetricians, ear,

Page 12761

1 nose, and throat specialists, those type of specialists regarding

2 conditions that they encounter in their patients?

3 A. As part of the primary health care in our medical centre in

4 Omarska, we had a consultation specialised service, and this was provided

5 by three specialists, gynecologist, internist, and pediatrician. These

6 doctors worked once a week. All patients during the day and during the

7 previous week were sent to them if their expert opinion was felt to be

8 required. If the patient's condition demanded it, the general

9 practitioner would send these patients for examinations to the appropriate

10 specialists.

11 Q. When a patient is referred by the general practitioner to a

12 specialist, is it common for them to give the specialist the background of

13 the patient, to brief them regarding what was discovered in the initial

14 examination by the general practitioner?

15 A. A general practitioner, in his daily work, examines the patient in

16 detail, performs all the necessary laboratory tests. And only then, after

17 the general practitioner has concluded that that particular health

18 institution cannot provide the necessary treatment, he then asks for

19 consultation and for the examination of that patient and refers the

20 patient to the specialist. And the patient takes with him his whole case

21 history, the test results, and everything else, he takes to that other

22 doctor.

23 Q. In your experience observing Dr. Stakic, did he have relations --

24 tend to have relations with only Serb doctors, or did he have

25 relationships with doctors of non-Serbian ethnicity, particularly Muslim

Page 12762

1 and Croat doctors?

2 A. In our health institution at that time, before me and Dr. Stakic,

3 for years Dr. Angela Mladenova had worked there. She is Bulgarian, and

4 there were also two Muslims, a couple, who worked there. There was no

5 difference, any in our communication, because of our different ethnic

6 origins. Nobody, and that includes Dr. Stakic, ever discriminated between

7 the colleagues on the basis of their ethnic origin.

8 Q. I'm not asking about who was at the clinic before you and

9 Dr. Stakic arrived. But did Dr. Stakic interact with Muslims and Croat

10 doctors in Prijedor Municipality? Was this -- was the community of

11 doctors in Prijedor small enough that you knew each other and interacted

12 with each other?

13 A. Well, we all knew one another since there were not so many

14 doctors, so that we all knew one another. I don't know whether he was

15 friends with somebody and who. But I suppose there was no reason why not

16 to have such friends. We were all friends, be it at professional

17 meetings, workshops, lectures. There was no difference between us.

18 Q. Was it common for doctors to attend, you mentioned workshops,

19 lectures, different aspects of what we would call in my profession

20 continuing education, and were there social events where doctors in

21 Prijedor of all ethnicities would get together?

22 A. At the education, the continuing education, yes, that goes on. And

23 that is why we attended workshop and seminars and lectures before the war

24 and now. There were also other types of get togethers, either marking

25 anniversaries of the health centre, or there was the nurses' day or

Page 12763

1 physicians' day, the 8th of March.

2 Q. Thank you. Madam, without giving me the address, can you just

3 tell me in 1992, at the outbreak of the conflict, in what area did you

4 live? Did you live in the town, in Omarska? Where did you live?

5 A. At that time, I was undergoing my specialisation in Banja Luka.

6 And I lived there part time. I usually commuted by car from work to

7 Omarska where my home was.

8 Q. Your home was in Banja Luka?

9 A. No, I didn't have my house in Banja Luka. I was staying with some

10 friends in Banja Luka.

11 Q. Okay. Where was your house, in what area?

12 A. My house, the flat that I live in, is in Omarska.

13 Q. Okay. And in 1992 when the -- let's say when the -- would you

14 call it the conflict in Kozarac broke out, were you staying at your flat

15 in Omarska or where were you at that time?

16 A. In the very early days of the conflict, my assignments were such

17 that that night, I was on duty at the Omarska health centre. And I stayed

18 there in the infirmary during the day.

19 Q. From your location, could you see the army shelling the Kozarac

20 area, the area of Kozarac, Kevljani, and places like that?

21 A. The only thing I saw were the patients in front of me. And it was

22 so traumatic, it was so hard on us when wounded and killed started to

23 arrive that physicians never left the infirmaries, the clinics, the

24 bandaging centres, bandaging rooms.

25 Q. Well, you mentioned one person, and I'm sorry, I've forgotten his

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Page 12765

1 last name, but Zeljko Zgonjanin, I believe. And would it be correct that

2 he was a soldier of Serbian ethnicity who was killed. Is that correct?

3 A. It is. He was the first soldier, young. He had an entry/exit

4 wound in the kidney area. We remember him because he was the first man to

5 be brought there, the first man who died before our eyes of such a wound.

6 Q. Now, madam, before this soldier was brought in, the area had been

7 shelled for approximately two days. Is that correct? Had you seen any

8 patients before that time?

9 A. No.

10 Q. You mentioned the horror of seeing people brought --

11 MR. LUKIC: Objection, Your Honour.

12 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Please.

13 MR. LUKIC: From the testimony of this witness, it is not clear

14 when this killed soldier was brought in. And I think that the Prosecution

15 should first establish that moment.

16 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Fair enough. I don't think the Prosecution will

17 have no problems with adding the concrete date.

18 MR. KOUMJIAN:

19 Q. Madam, do you remember that the soldier was brought in, would it

20 be correct, on Tuesday, the 26th of May, and that the shelling of the

21 Kozarac area had begun on Sunday, the 24th of May?

22 A. I mean, I can't. I can tell you it was in the beginning of the

23 conflict, so it was late May. But I don't know the exact date. When the

24 conflict started, that is when this soldier was brought to us.

25 Q. Madam, isn't it correct that there was artillery fire for two days

Page 12766

1 before the soldier was brought in. Correct?

2 A. I'm not aware of that.

3 Q. Madam, did you treat any victims of shelling?

4 A. No.

5 Q. Did you have any children brought to your clinic who had been

6 wounded by artillery shells, mortars, and tank fire?

7 A. No. No. No, no such children came.

8 Q. Did anyone make you aware that Dr. Idriz Merdzanic had been asking

9 for an ambulance to evacuate two dying children from the area of Kozarac?

10 A. As far as I can remember, I don't know which doctor asked for it.

11 But whatever the case, we received an application to send an ambulance to

12 Kozarac. Two nurses went there and a driver. So the ambulance car was

13 sent. But they returned shortly afterwards frightened, and they were

14 shouting at the doctor who had sent them because they had been exposed to

15 gunfire.

16 Q. Madam, you mentioned the area, the village of Kevljani, where you

17 stayed Dr. Stakic was well loved. Did you see that area of Kevljani after

18 the 26th of May, after the shelling of the army?

19 A. No.

20 Q. Are you aware that all of the people of Kevljani were forced from

21 their homes during that attack, many of their homes were burned down, and

22 many of them were taken to the Omarska, Keraterm, and Trnopolje camps?

23 A. I don't know. One could assume, after the conflict, that a number

24 of their houses were destroyed. The majority -- the majority of the

25 population were brought in buses, women, children, were brought to the

Page 12767

1 cultural centre in Omarska. As for other investigation centres apart from

2 Omarska, no, I didn't learn about them straight away. I learned about

3 Trnopolje later on. It was said that there were people there, and that

4 they could go out and come in freely, that they were best protected there

5 so that nobody would harm them or harass them in any way.

6 As for Keraterm, no, I did not hear about it for a long time.

7 Q. Madam, do you know if anything that Dr. Stakic did for the people

8 of Kevljani who had suffered this attack and then were put on those

9 buses? Can you tell us anything specifically that you know Dr. Stakic did

10 for them?

11 A. No, I don't.

12 Q. Madam, did you treat women prisoners at the Omarska camp?

13 A. Well, they were my patients at our health centre. I had a female

14 patient who -- with a fever and some urinary tract infection. And then

15 another female patient, or rather a woman who usually came with them, and

16 I saw her in silk track suit. So she stood apart from the others in a

17 way. Those female patients were extended medical aid. They were given a

18 drip feed, antibiotics, and their treatment continued in the investigation

19 centre.

20 MR. KOUMJIAN: Your Honour, can we go into private session for a

21 few minutes. I see we're about to break. Is that correct? We're going

22 to break at quarter ...

23 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Private session is enough?

24 MR. KOUMJIAN: Yes, it is.

25 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Private session, please.

Page 12768

1 [Private session]

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 [Open session]

14 MR. KOUMJIAN:

15 Q. Madam, you talked about a Dr. Gajic going to the Omarska camp.

16 Did you send him to that camp?

17 A. No. Dr. Gajic came as a soldier, said he'd been called up, and

18 that as of that moment, he'd take care of the health of the detainees in

19 the investigation centre.

20 Q. Okay. Madam, I'm going to read for you now some testimony by a

21 Slobodan Gajic during a different case. And for counsel, it's page 11.672

22 of the Kvocka case.

23 MR. LUKIC: We object, Your Honour. It's -- we were not allowed

24 during the Prosecution case to present any witness with a statement of

25 some other witness.

Page 12769

1 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: We discussed it previously. Let's have the

2 break for the videolink now for the next 30 minutes, and let's discuss

3 this procedural issue, please, in private session.

4 [Private session]

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

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19 (redacted)

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21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

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Page 12771

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

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6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 [Open session]

13 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Can you hear us in Banja Luka?

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, we can hear you.

15 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Mr. Koumjian, please proceed.

16 MR. KOUMJIAN: Your Honour, we do have some transcripts to hand

17 out to the Court and counsel. I guess we only have one transcript -- we

18 do have three for the Court.

19 Q. Okay, madam, you talked about Dr. Gajic. Dr. Gajic actually came

20 from Jajce. Is that correct?

21 A. He came, introduced himself, said he was a doctor, a soldier, or

22 actually that he was a doctor who was mobilised.

23 Q. Okay. Thank you. He was not from Prijedor. Is that correct?

24 A. Yes, that's correct. He wasn't.

25 Q. Madam, I'm going to put to you some testimony of Mr. Gajic on page

Page 12772

1 11.693 beginning on line 16. Madam, Dr. Gajic testified in other case,

2 and he was asked by a Judge Rodrigues, "Did you have can I say a calendar

3 of your present -- of the presence of each doctor a schedule or did the

4 physicians all arrive at the same time or did they have a schedule

5 according to which they would go to the centre?" And he answer: "Dr.

6 Slavica Popovic was the head administrator of the health centre, and she

7 would determine the scheduling and order in which the doctors visited."

8 Judge Rodrigues asked: "Okay, so you were there you went to the centre on

9 the basis of instructions received by Dr. Slavica Popovic. Is that

10 correct?

11 THE INTERPRETER: Could you please read slowly. Thank you.

12 MR. KOUMJIAN:

13 Q. And your answer was: "The first morning visit we knew that's what

14 we had to do first and that as soon as we got up we would go to that first

15 visit --

16 THE INTERPRETER: Can you please slow down. The interpreters

17 can't follow.

18 THE INTERPRETER: Could the text perhaps be put on the ELMO.

19 MR. KOUMJIAN: We don't have an extra copy.

20 Q. The answer on page 11.694 at the top, the top of 11.694, please.

21 The answer of Dr. Gajic was: "The first morning, we knew that's what we

22 had to do first. And then as soon as we got up, we would go to that first

23 visit. So for that first visit, we didn't need an order or an indication

24 from anybody. We knew that was our job. As soon as we got all the

25 medicines we needed, we would go straight to the centre for the morning

Page 12773

1 visit.

2 "As for the other visits, they would be done on the basis of phone

3 calls. If we were phoned up or if Dr. Slavica told us to go there, we

4 would go."

5 Then earlier, on page 11.672, beginning on line 4 - it is 11.672 -

6 Dr. Gajic was asked on line 4: "Could you please explain to the Tribunal

7 what arrangements you made with the lady doctor, and what she -- how she

8 told you to cover the health centre -- why she told you to cover the

9 health centre?"

10 And Dr. Gajic answered: "She told me to cover the centre because

11 I am from a different region. I come from a different area, and I didn't

12 know the people who were in the investigation centre."

13 Madam, did you tell Dr. Gajic to go to the Omarska camp?

14 A. Dr. Gajic, as I said, was mobilised. He was a soldier and a

15 doctor who said that he came there together with the driver and the

16 military ambulance and that he would, from now on, be providing medical

17 treatment at the investigation centre. Myself, I myself, or any other

18 doctor were not able to tell anything to Dr. Slobodan Gajic. He took over

19 the work at the investigation centre while we carried out with our daily

20 duties. We continuously provided medical assistance at the medical

21 centre.

22 As far as the duty rote, I don't know why he picked me. I wasn't

23 the one who was making the decisions about who would be on duty because

24 already, at the beginning of the conflict, we all had a meeting and had an

25 internal agreement about which doctors would be on duty. Two doctors were

Page 12774

1 on duty every night. So none of us were present at the infirmary around

2 the clock. So it wasn't possible for us to tell him when he would go,

3 because -- and when it was necessary for him to go because he was present

4 at the health centre every day while none of us were there every day.

5 And there was another third thing that he said. Could you please

6 repeat that for me.

7 Q. Madam, isn't it a fact you told him to go to the camp, that he

8 would be appropriate because he was not from Prijedor and did not know the

9 detainees?

10 A. I did not -- I was in no position to send anyone or to decide who

11 would go to the investigation centre. I've already said earlier that we

12 did not have any telephone communication with them. If there was a need

13 for any medical treatment at the investigation centre, then the police

14 station informed us either by telephone or they would come personally

15 requesting that medical help be sent to the investigation centre. We

16 didn't keep any records of that. We were a civilian health centre in

17 charge of the health of the civilian population. When there was need for

18 us to give medical assistance to the detainees at the investigation

19 centre, then we would also do that.

20 And possibly, there are records about those prisoners, patients

21 who were given medical treatment at the medical centre.

22 Q. So, madam, on the basis of these phone calls you're talking about,

23 do you now admit that you went to the Omarska camp when detainees were

24 present?

25 A. No, we didn't understand each other. Dr. Gajic Slobodan would go,

Page 12775

1 but if there was any need for medical assistance, after we were contacted

2 by the police station or the policemen came, then our vehicle would go to

3 bring the prisoners to the clinic where we would give them medical

4 assistance. Sometimes the police themselves would use their own vehicles

5 to bring the prisoners from the investigation centre to the clinic.

6 Q. Madam, one time, so I'm absolutely clear I understand you: Were

7 you ever in the Omarska camp when detainees were present?

8 A. No.

9 Q. On page 11.686 of the transcript of Mr. Gajic - perhaps the usher

10 could put it on the ELMO, it's a short question and answer - Judge Riad

11 asked the doctor, beginning on line 1: "This pressure, because you were

12 the only man, the only doctor for all the camp?" And Dr. Gajic answered:

13 "No, other doctors visited the camp, including Slavica Popovic,

14 Nada Ljubic, Jasenka Mijatovic, and Vlado Radic, and others whom I don't

15 remember because I had already gone. But I was the one who went there the

16 most. I was the regular one."

17 Madam, do you still deny going to the camp?

18 A. I've said that the doctors at the clinic gave medical assistance

19 to the investigation centre during those first few days until Dr. Slobodan

20 Gajic was mobilised.

21 Q. Well, then, now do I understand you to say that you did go to the

22 camp before Dr. Gajic went to the camp?

23 A. No.

24 Q. Have you ever been -- madam --

25 A. I didn't go. During those days, other doctors went there.

Page 12776

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Page 12777

1 Q. Madam, do you know someone named Ljubian Andzic?

2 A. I know him. He's from the same place. He had many acquaintances

3 and friends at the investigation centre, and he went to the centre often.

4 He took medicines there, food, and whatever else was needed.

5 Q. Madam, did Dr. -- did Ljubjan Andzic, was he a medical technician

6 who was sent to the Omarska camp, not as a detainee but sent there as a

7 medical professional?

8 A. Yes, he's a medical technician, and he did go in the capacity of

9 nurse. But then he also, because of his connections and the large number

10 of acquaintances and friends, he also went privately.

11 Q. Madam, you went to the Omarska camp with Mr. Andzic. Isn't that

12 correct?

13 A. No. I did set out to go. There were some interventions. They

14 asked that all available medical staff go to the Omarska investigation

15 centre. But at some point, once we had passed the gate but before

16 actually getting into the centre, we were all turned back because there

17 was a man who was wounded who was of Serbian ethnicity, and then another

18 one of Muslim ethnicity, and nobody else had remained at the medical

19 centre. We had to go back. But since the people who had been wounded

20 inside the investigation centre had already been taken care of and given

21 assistance, there was no need for us to go there.

22 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: May I interrupt for procedural reasons. May I

23 ask you, based on the fact that apparently you are an important witness

24 for this case, and it seems to be not sufficient to hear you by videolink

25 only, what would be a possible date for you to come to The Hague?

Page 12778

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] For personal reasons, I cannot come

2 to The Hague, and that is why, after talking with the lawyers, I decided

3 to testify by videolink. I have a small child that I'm not able to leave

4 in the care of anyone.

5 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: You have relatives? And how old is your child?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] My child is 6 years old. It was

7 never separated from me until now. At the moment, I'm living by myself

8 with my son. And the closest relative that I have is my mother. She is

9 73 years old, and she is ill and unable to take care of my child.

10 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: The Trial Chamber will have to decide later

11 whether it's mandatory to hear you as a live witness, because no doubt,

12 the probative value of a videolink testimony is a lower one than that of a

13 live witness. Please take this into account when answering the following

14 questions, and I would ask the Prosecution to repeat the last question

15 once more.

16 MR. KOUMJIAN: I believe she did answer that question.

17 Q. But, madam, is it true that you went to the Omarska camp with

18 Mr. Ljubjan Andzic?

19 A. I think that I've already given an answer to that question.

20 Q. Did you enter --

21 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Sorry. But the end of the answer was: "But

22 there was no need for us to go there." This is your final answer?

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, we went there because they said

24 that all available medical personnel should be placed at the disposal of

25 the investigation centre. But by the time we got there, Dr. Gajic and the

Page 12779

1 nurse I think -- or the nurse, Ljuban Andzic, I think he went with us, he

2 went inside, and we were told that the patients had already been taken

3 care of, and that we should go back to the clinic because two wounded

4 persons had been sent there. One of Serb ethnicity and one of Muslim

5 ethnicity.

6 MR. KOUMJIAN:

7 Q. Okay, madam --

8 MR. KOUMJIAN: I'd like to have another transcript distributed.

9 I'm sorry, but we only have three copies. So perhaps, one for the ELMO,

10 one for the Judges, and one for the Defence. I'd like to have page 7.535,

11 the bottom line, put on the ELMO, and then the top of the next page.

12 Q. Madam, Mr. Ljubjan Andzic testified in front of this Tribunal

13 under oath on the 7th of February, 2002. Let me check the year. 2001,

14 excuse me. And he was asked: "Was there any doctor at the medical centre

15 in Omarska who would go there with you?" Referring to the camp. And his

16 answer was: "Dr. Slavica Popovic would go."

17 Do you know of any reason why Mr. Andzic would believe or say that

18 you had gone to the camp with him?

19 A. I told you that during shooting in the camp itself at the

20 investigation centre when all available medical staff was called, I went

21 in that group to the investigation centre, in the group of medical

22 personnel. I was never there with Ljuban Andzic. I believe that at

23 that -- that one time, Ljuban Andzic was one of the medical personnel at

24 the investigation centre, but I never went with him. Our doctors provided

25 medical assistance there only in the first few days after the

Page 12780

1 establishment of the investigation centre.

2 Q. Madam, did you ever treat Professor Muhamed Cehajic?

3 A. Do you mean during the war, Professor Muhamed Cehajic?

4 Q. Did you ever treat Professor Muhamed Cehajic?

5 A. I didn't have the opportunity before the war. During the war,

6 during the visit of a part of the team which was to investigate the

7 possibilities of providing the most efficient health service to the

8 detainees at the investigation centre, I saw Muhamed Cehajic on that

9 occasion. He was examined by another doctor and prescribed treatment for

10 him.

11 Q. Where was Professor Cehajic when you saw him?

12 A. Then, when I saw him, he was at the investigation centre, and he

13 was at the clinic which was allocated as the place where patients would be

14 treated.

15 Q. Madam, can you describe where this clinic was in the Omarska camp.

16 A. It was one room. It wasn't a real clinic. It was a room which

17 had been allocated for examinations and for the prescribing of therapy, of

18 treatment.

19 Q. Which building was it in?

20 A. It wasn't a building. It was a rather low house, a rather low

21 room. Around it were buildings, and that was a rather low room.

22 Q. Madam, when you saw Professor Cehajic, who else was present?

23 A. There was another colleague who attended the same secondary school

24 as I did in Prijedor. Professor Cehajic was our teacher. He taught us

25 Serbo-Croatian, and there were also two female nurses.

Page 12781

1 Q. Who was the colleague that you attended school with?

2 A. Dr. Vlado Radic.

3 Q. Madam, I'm going to have a diagram - Mr. Usher, please - put on

4 the screen to look at. It's S15-18. And I realise this may be difficult

5 because you can't point -- we can't see you pointing here. But looking at

6 this diagram, you'll see several buildings, one is a white house to the

7 bottom right, and then there are larger buildings, one at the top right

8 and one to the left. Where was the clinic that you're talking about?

9 A. Oh, dear. Why it was such a fleeting moment. I don't know. That

10 white one. What is this room behind those buildings? This low, lower

11 room, but I'm not sure. I know that that room wasn't part of the

12 buildings.

13 Q. So you believe it was in this white house that you saw Professor

14 Cehajic?

15 A. In that room, he applied for examination. I think it is that

16 room, but I'm not sure. All I know is that it wasn't part of these large

17 buildings.

18 Q. Madam, can you tell us what you observed about the condition of

19 the mayor -- excuse me, the president of the Municipal Assembly of

20 Prijedor, Muhamed Cehajic, when you saw him on that occasion?

21 A. Well, he was upset. He was distraught. He asked to be examined,

22 to have his heart examined, because earlier on, he used to have a heart

23 complaint. He said he had had a cardiac infarction, and he asked to be

24 given some tranquiliser and some painkiller.

25 Q. Did you see evidence that he had been beaten?

Page 12782

1 A. Well, when he pulled his shirt up, one could see a bruise on his

2 back.

3 Q. Did he tell you he was urinating blood?

4 A. No.

5 Q. Madam, do you know why Professor Cehajic was detained in the

6 Omarska camp?

7 A. I don't.

8 Q. Madam, did you know colleagues of yours, doctors, who were

9 detained at the Omarska camp?

10 A. Well, we heard that some of them were in the centre.

11 Q. Madam, I'd like to go to private session for a moment.

12 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Private session, please.

13 [Private session]

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 12783

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12 Page 12783 redacted private session

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20

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22

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Page 12784

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 [Open session]

6 A. Well, Dr. Stakic was the president of the people's radical party

7 of Veljko Guberina. Whether he was a member of any other party before

8 that, I wouldn't know.

9 MR. KOUMJIAN:

10 Q. And Dr. Stakic, you told us, is it correct that he ran for office

11 and elected as a deputy of the assembly in the 1990 elections and stopped

12 practicing medicine in order to take up the position of vice-president of

13 the municipality, is that correct, in 1991?

14 A. What I know, that he was vice-president from the beginning of

15 1991. But at that time, I had absolutely no part in the political life,

16 and I knew nothing of any nominations, elections, or whatever. And I

17 wasn't interested in that at all.

18 Q. In -- at the end of the war, in 1996, 1997, did Dr. Stakic return

19 in 1996 as the president of the municipality and again give up the

20 practice of medicine?

21 A. I think that when Dr. Stakic left the Municipal Assembly, then he

22 did not work directly as a doctor, as a physician, offering -- providing

23 medical aid. When he was the director of the health centre, what were the

24 years, I really don't know. I can't remember that exactly. But I do know

25 he was the director of the health centre.

Page 12785

1 Q. Thank you. So as the director of the health centre, he would have

2 been an administrator in charge of many other doctors but not himself

3 providing care to patients. Is that correct?

4 A. It is.

5 Q. Thank you.

6 MR. KOUMJIAN: I have no further questions.

7 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Thank you.

8 Questioned by the Court:

9 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: May I turn immediately to the line of questions

10 put to you by Prosecution counsel. Could you please tell us the exact

11 date when Dr. Slobodan Gajic arrived in Omarska.

12 A. I can't say the exact date. But I said it was shortly after the

13 establishment, a few days later. That is when he came to the health

14 centre.

15 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: When would you fix the date of the

16 establishment?

17 A. After the establishment of what? I didn't understand your

18 question.

19 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: I made reference to your own answer. When asked

20 when Dr. Slobodan Gajic arrived in Omarska, you answered: "I can't say

21 the exact date, but I said it was shortly after the establishment, a few

22 days later." And therefore, my question was: Establishment of what?

23 A. Well, I can't say exactly when the investigation centre was set

24 up. But it was a few days after it was set up. I don't know exactly the

25 date, but just a few days after it was established, after it was set up,

Page 12786

1 he came.

2 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Would you, with the assistance of some important

3 incidents that happened at that time, try to the best of your recollection

4 be more precise on the date. And maybe it will help that I bring to your

5 attention another part of Dr. Gajic's testimony on the 11th of May, 2001.

6 Page 11.671 where he said: "And on the 25th of May, I reported to the

7 military unit in Banja Luka and was mobilised into a brigade. That is to

8 say, the health section, sanitary corps, medical corps of that brigade.

9 It was the 1st Brigade, the 1st Armoured Brigade."

10 And then later, line 24, it reads -- let's start with the next

11 answer. When asked: "How did you organise your work in the Omarska

12 health centre?" The answer of Dr. Gajic was: "In the Omarska health

13 centre, work was organised in the following way: We catered to the

14 civilian population, the military, and the police force. And the lady

15 doctor -- I don't know at that time -- I didn't know - at that time

16 informed me that an investigation centre had been set up and that I would

17 have to do that work, too -- we would have to do that work, too."

18 So does this assist you and refresh your recollection?

19 A. I was asked as a doctor to help, as a doctor who is under work

20 obligation. Other doctors, perhaps, have a better memory and remember

21 better all those dates. Because after all, I went there to help them, to

22 extend the best health care possible. That was my primary task. A lot of

23 time has elapsed since those events. And it's a very painful experience

24 about something that happened in our lands. I cannot give you the exact

25 date when this investigation centre was set up.

Page 12787

1 And Dr. Gajic - I'm sorry - at that time, when he came, I wasn't

2 the head of that health centre. It was Dr. Nada Lukic who was at the head

3 of the centre at the time, because the then director could not get to

4 Omarska because of the barricades. So she could speak about the

5 investigation centre, but he must have known about it because he was sent

6 there. He as a doctor never treated -- never had anything to do with the

7 civilian population in Omarska.

8 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: How long did Dr. Slobodan Gajic stay at Omarska,

9 work in the Omarska camp?

10 A. Well, I'm not sure. I suppose as long as that investigation

11 centre operated. People there could not be left without health care.

12 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: In the same testimony I mentioned before, on

13 page 11.679, Dr. Gajic was asked: "Approximately when would you have been

14 the last time that you went to the Omarska camp?" The answer was: "I

15 cannot remember exactly when it was, but it must have been sometime around

16 the 10th or the 12th of July."

17 Question: "So you only spent about a month providing medical

18 assistance at the Omarska camp?" Answer: "Yes, yes."

19 Having heard this, does this refresh your recollection?

20 A. Well, I cannot say exactly how long he was there. He knows it

21 better because it has to do with him directly. I saw that those people,

22 the detainees in the investigation centre, were to have continual health

23 care. Whether it was solved in some other way by the police or the army,

24 or whether he left because he was assigned to some other duty, I don't

25 know that.

Page 12788

1 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: How many times have you been in Omarska camp?

2 A. The first time, one had to see the place where medical aid could

3 be extended, so that is why I went there. So that first time, I saw

4 Professor Cehajic because I knew him and I recognised him. The second

5 time, I was on my way to the investigation centre to help. I was part of

6 the team of the Omarska health centre. But since aid had already been

7 extended -- extended, we were told to go back to our clinic because there

8 was a man wounded who was a Muslim, and we went to help him. But after he

9 was looked after, after he was extended primary care, the draper feed and

10 antibiotics, the man was sent on to Prijedor for surgery. And in the

11 centre itself was a man of Serb ethnicity who had also been wounded and

12 who had a uniform, we also helped him.

13 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Coming back to the testimony of Dr. Gajic, he

14 said himself: "It was between the 10th or 12th of July." Did any other

15 doctor replace him? Or did you yourself overtake the duties of Dr. Gajic?

16 A. I didn't take over his job because we were too busy at the health

17 centre helping the civilian population, that is, people who normally came

18 for treatment to our facility. Whether somebody else took over his job, I

19 don't know.

20 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Did you ever speak with or discuss with

21 Dr. Gajic question why people were in Omarska camp?

22 A. It was difficult to see that times were very hard. It was very

23 difficult to talk about it. We, the physicians, cared basically to help

24 people, to extend adequate health care, to forestall the outbreak of any

25 epidemics. Our thoughts were all focussed in that direction, and all our

Page 12789

1 activities, to extend to people adequate health care and protection.

2 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Did you discuss the way the inmates in Omarska

3 camp had been treated?

4 A. Dr. Gajic was a rather taciturn man. He communicated very little

5 with us. On an occasion, he said that gastrointestinal infections had

6 started to spread. And the manifestations were vomiting and diarrhea and

7 that he feared an epidemic. And then he asked me and other people,

8 because I wasn't the only one, he asked us to give him medicine so that he

9 could take them to the investigation centre and give them to people.

10 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: May I put to you the answer given by Dr. Gajic

11 on page 11.680, to the same question I put to you just a moment before.

12 He answered: "There were many individuals who had been beaten up. Many

13 people who had hematoma, scratches, various kinds of injuries." Did you

14 share this with Dr. Gajic?

15 A. No. Dr. Gajic did not tell us -- did not report to us what

16 happened. But one can assume that they were injuries because when we were

17 on duty, we would have some injured patients with bruises, and I said that

18 when I was on duty, we had an exit/entry wound, and we sent the patient

19 on.

20 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: It's correct you mentioned this beforehand

21 during your testimony. Did you discuss with your patients why it was that

22 they suffered from these injuries?

23 A. Well, that was more than obvious, that those injuries were

24 inflicted on them, and they frequently said themselves that they were

25 living under difficult circumstances, that those who thought they should

Page 12790

1 not be there inflicted injuries on each other, but also that they were

2 being injured by policemen on duty.

3 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Did you have ever seen a Serb or heard about a

4 Serb being beaten up in Omarska camp?

5 A. No, I did not hear about that. The only person that I saw was

6 this Serb who had a gunshot wound in the area of his foot.

7 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: And did he tell you how it came to this injury?

8 A. Some shooting broke out at the investigation centre. He happened

9 to be in front of a prisoner, and that's how he sustained that wound.

10 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Madam, from a medical point of view, did you

11 feel that the way human beings were treated in Omarska camp, that this was

12 an appropriate way to keep prisoners?

13 A. There isn't a satisfactory way anywhere to keep a person in

14 captivity. As medical staff, we did our utmost, everything that was in

15 our power, often at the expense of the local population. We would send

16 the medicines and help them to come through and to overcome the place and

17 the time that they happened to be in.

18 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: May I put to you the answer to the same question

19 given by Dr. Gajic the 11th of May, 2001, page 11.681, line 1. His answer

20 was: "In my view, it was not adequate. But there was nothing I could do

21 to change it, that is, that it was not appropriate."

22 Did you discuss with him any possibility to find some relief, to

23 improve the situation?

24 A. On one occasion during a conversation with him, I suggested to him

25 that he should suggest to the investigation centre the possibility of

Page 12791

1 separating chronically ill people and to try to achieve for them to have

2 priority during interrogation. And so that they would also be given more

3 adequate care.

4 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Did you yourself, as a civilian, as a human

5 being, see any justification why these persons were detained? Did you

6 hear about any alleged crime they would have committed?

7 A. For me as a person, there isn't a single way or a single reason

8 for people to survive all that we all together survived during the war.

9 There's no reason for them to be detained or captured or to be killed. In

10 populated places or at the front, war is an evil. It's the biggest

11 possible catastrophe which could affect us and which we had to go through

12 in this area. At the time, I was not a part of the political life. I

13 didn't participate in politics. I wasn't able to influence anything, and

14 I believed, until the last moment, that there must not be a war in the

15 territory of Bosnia and Herzegovina.

16 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: I think we all share your view. But isn't it

17 true that already since school, you knew Dr. Stakic?

18 A. I knew Dr. Stakic from high school in Prijedor. Dr. Stakic was a

19 good student, quiet, withdrawn, serious. A good student.

20 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: You mentioned this before, and we appreciate

21 this. And we have no doubt about this. My question would be as you

22 testified beforehand, you knew that now Dr. Stakic obtained a political

23 position. Didn't you see this as a chance to change the actual situation

24 in Omarska camp, discussing this problem with him, living together with

25 him even in the same town?

Page 12792

1 A. This was 1990. At that time, I wasn't in Omarska any more.

2 Already in early spring, I went to Banja Luka. So I was spending most of

3 my time during -- doing my specialisation, so I didn't actually see much

4 of Dr. Stakic for much of that time.

5 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: But you were aware that Dr. Stakic was first

6 vice-president and then the president of the Municipal Assembly of

7 Prijedor. Correct?

8 A. I knew that. I knew that from 1991. He was first deputy

9 president, and then the president.

10 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Did you discuss these human problems you were

11 faced with in your daily work? Did you ever discuss this with Dr. Stakic,

12 be it in 1992 or later?

13 A. No.

14 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: When asked on today's transcript, page 11, line

15 23, about the Crisis Staff you mentioned there was a Crisis Staff. Later

16 on when asked, you said: "One could assume that there was also a Crisis

17 Staff in Prijedor." Isn't it correct that you knew that Dr. Stakic was

18 president of the Crisis Staff in Prijedor?

19 A. No, I didn't know.

20 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Did you learn this later?

21 A. We had very little information. To tell you the truth, politics,

22 political life, didn't interest us in the least. We were struggling for

23 our survival in a very difficult situation in which we found ourselves.

24 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: We absolutely understand your position. But may

25 I, nevertheless, ask how often did you meet Dr. Stakic since 1992?

Page 12793

1 A. I didn't see Dr. Stakic once in 1992. Later, when he was the

2 director of the medical centre, perhaps I saw him twice.

3 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Did you exchange views or did you only see him?

4 A. I didn't say anything in particular. Last time that I saw him, I

5 did ask him to continue my specialisation.

6 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: May I ask, are you still gainfully employed in

7 the health centre?

8 A. After I completed my specialisation, since I'm the only

9 pediatrician in this area, and I live there, they asked me to stay and to

10 work so that children could be treated in an adequate way.

11 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Have you ever seen children in Omarska camp?

12 A. I told you about my encounters with the Omarska camp. But I think

13 that there were no children over there.

14 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Who is today your director?

15 A. Dr. Spomenka Pavkovic is my director. She is also a pediatrician.

16 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: And the administrative director of the health

17 centre is who, please?

18 A. I don't understand your question. But I will tell you her deputy

19 is Mr. --

20 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter did not hear the name.

21 A. Head of the legal service or the legal department.

22 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Head of the administrative department, if there

23 is any.

24 A. The head of the legal department is Mrs. Borislava Dakic. There's

25 also the administrative board. I don't know who is the president there.

Page 12794

1 I think it's someone from the socialist party.

2 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Do you know whether or not Dr. Stakic is still

3 on the payroll of your health centre?

4 A. I don't know whether he is now, but I think that once the doctor,

5 the director spoke to me saying that there wasn't the legal possibility

6 for us to suspend his pay, and that his children should not be left

7 without a means of living.

8 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Correct. No doubt, Dr. Stakic he is presumed

9 innocent, and this is a reason. I have no further questions.

10 Judge Vassylenko, please.

11 JUDGE VASSYLENKO: My question is: Apart from Dr. Cehajic, were

12 other acquaintances of yourself, your friends or relatives, detained in

13 Omarska?

14 A. He was a professor, a professor of literature, Professor Cehajic.

15 He -- I didn't have any relatives who were detained there. But I did have

16 friends and colleagues, yes.

17 JUDGE VASSYLENKO: And why they were detained in Omarska camp?

18 A. I don't know that.

19 JUDGE VASSYLENKO: What was their ethnicity?

20 A. Mostly Muslim ethnicity.

21 JUDGE VASSYLENKO: Thank you. I have no more questions.

22 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Thank you.

23 Judge Argibay, please.

24 JUDGE ARGIBAY: Yes, a couple of them. Good afternoon, Doctor.

25 Did you know beforehand that the Omarska iron ore mine

Page 12795

1 installations were going to be transformed into an investigation centre,

2 as you said?

3 A. No, I didn't know.

4 JUDGE ARGIBAY: When did you realise that it was an investigation

5 centre?

6 A. We were informed by the police station that an investigation

7 centre was formed and that we should make sure that the detained persons

8 at the centre receive medical assistance until another solution is found.

9 JUDGE ARGIBAY: Was the general public, the people in Omarska,

10 very happy to have this investigation centre near them?

11 A. The people of Omarska were not happy. We experienced that as a

12 common misfortune, the war conflict. We tried through friends in the

13 police to send food to our friends and acquaintances, as well as clothing

14 whenever we had the opportunity to do so. It was a misfortune that nobody

15 ever -- war in our area that nobody ever wanted to be repeated.

16 JUDGE ARGIBAY: Sorry, have you finished?

17 A. Yes, I have.

18 JUDGE ARGIBAY: Then there's another question. Are you aware that

19 the people of Omarska made a protest, march, or something like that the

20 day that the first detainees were arriving at the detention camp?

21 A. The people of Omarska did not protest. They were in a state of

22 shock, the war itself, the war conflict. People were afraid, concerned,

23 filled with distrust, under enormous tension, even before the outbreak of

24 the war. We wanted it all to end as soon as possible and have the

25 investigation centre in Omarska for as short a period of time as

Page 12796

1 possible. So that in some way, we could all together overcome the events

2 that were taking place.

3 JUDGE ARGIBAY: Thank you. I have no more questions.

4 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Further questions by the Defence, please.

5 MR. LUKIC: I have only one, Your Honour. Thank you.

6 Further examined by Mr. Lukic:

7 Q. [Interpretation] Dr. Popovic, relating to the last question of Her

8 Honour Judge Argibay, are you aware or do you know that armed people

9 headed by Cigo Radanovic tried to prevent the army and the police from

10 placing these people in the Omarska iron ore mining facilities?

11 A. No, I don't know about that.

12 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. I have no more questions.

13 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Prosecution.

14 MR. KOUMJIAN: Your Honour, I have to admit that I have a short

15 line of questions that goes beyond -- I'd like to ask permission to reopen

16 for a few minutes my cross-examination. I see we have quite a bit of

17 time. But it was something I forgot to cover in my cross-examination.

18 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: You are prepared to do this immediately?

19 MR. KOUMJIAN: Yes.

20 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: So, please.

21 Further cross-examined by Mr. Koumjian:

22 Q. Madam, were you providing medication to Professor Cehajic for his

23 heart condition?

24 A. I sent him medicines, a cardio tonic, apaurin, and an analgin, and

25 I asked that these things be delivered to him.

Page 12797

1 Q. Doctor, when did you become aware that Professor Cehajic was

2 missing from the Omarska camp?

3 A. I didn't find out that Professor Cehajic disappeared from the

4 Omarska camp. I don't know about that.

5 Q. So when did you stop sending the medication? Did you continue to

6 send the medication throughout the summer into the fall? Why did you stop

7 sending the medication to Professor Cehajic?

8 A. The medicines, I didn't stop sending the medicines because I

9 believed that Dr. Cehajic was not at the investigation centre but because

10 the military clinic already had a sufficient amount of medicines, and

11 those medicines then could be given to Dr. -- Professor Cehajic.

12 Q. As a pediatrician, you knew Dr. Minka Cehajic, also a

13 pediatrician. Correct?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Did you talk to her about her husband, about seeing him in the

16 white house in the Omarska camp?

17 A. I called her once. I wanted to tell her that I had seen him, that

18 I had sent him medicines. However, my colleague was evidently upset when

19 she heard my voice so that she cried throughout that conversation, and she

20 thanked me. She kept thanking me for calling her. So that I couldn't

21 really tell her anything in particular. I couldn't tell my colleague

22 anything in particular.

23 Q. You talked about having contacts with the army and with the police

24 in the Omarska and continuing to live there all these years. Have you

25 ever asked anyone what happened to Professor Muhamed Cehajic?

Page 12798

1 A. I never spoke with the police about that, nor would the policemen,

2 I believe, tell me something like that. I believe that they would think

3 that I, as a doctor, or anyone else would have the right to discuss or to

4 question anything about the investigation centre.

5 MR. KOUMJIAN: No further questions.

6 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: The Defence in return, any questions?

7 MR. LUKIC: No, Your Honour. Thank you.

8 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: I can't see any further questions. So I have to

9 thank you for today's testimony. Believe us, we know how difficult it is

10 for you to testify under these circumstances. Thank you for your

11 testimony. And you are excused for today. And this concludes the

12 videolink of today. And I have to thank at the same time all those

13 participating in the videolink and assisting us in Banja Luka. Thank you

14 to Banja Luka.

15 [The witness's testimony via videolink concluded]

16 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Then, let us here in this courtroom proceed with

17 the question of what is the main issue of the witnesses for next week? We

18 know that Witness 006 will appear based on the amended proffer we received

19 today.

20 MR. LUKIC: Yes, Your Honour. As you ordered, I contacted Victims

21 and Witness Unit, and I spoke with Ms. Isabel Skukan. We arranged that

22 Witness 043 might be here the next week as well because we provided them

23 the date of this witness. And hopefully, we'll have his visa at the

24 beginning of the next week. And we also learned from the same unit that

25 it may be that both Chamber witnesses be present here the next week. So

Page 12799

1 we think that it will be more than sufficient to cover the whole week.

2 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: We appreciate your efforts during this break. I

3 know how difficult it is for you. And you may have seen the exchange of

4 notes with the legal officer of the Chamber during the testimony, and it

5 is confirmed that the video -- that the Victim and Witness Unit will try

6 to do the very best that Witness 043, in fact, will be available as of

7 Thursday.

8 I mentioned beforehand that knowing about your difficulties, we'll

9 come to this later witness by witness after the break, we implemented our

10 so-called "emergency programme." And this means that this Trial Chamber

11 will start on Monday, 9.00, with Witness Budimir. This would be followed

12 as soon as possible and practical by Witness 006. Then we expect the

13 arrival of Mr. Travar on Wednesday. So he would be able to testify on

14 Thursday. And then it would be Friday for Witness 043. I think this is a

15 programme which, in fact, can cover the entire week. Only that the

16 parties know, immediately after the break, it's the intention of the

17 Chamber to go not only through administrative matters, but also the

18 updated witness list.

19 The trial stays adjourned until 6.00 sharp.

20 --- Recess taken at 5.46 p.m.

21 --- On resuming at 6.12 p.m.

22 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Please be seated.

23 First, related to the scheduling order of next week, everything

24 remains as planned. You heard immediately beforehand the witnesses to be

25 called. The Defence was notified that there would be a second motion

Page 12800

1 pursuant to Rule 66 (C). And I have to announce that this, under the

2 rules, ex parte, mandatory ex parte hearing, will take place immediately

3 after the hearing of the 5th of March. We are sitting in Courtroom I at

4 that time, and it's scheduled for no longer than one hour. I hope we can

5 do it in this time, during this time.

6 The Prosecution should be prepared to have an answer to the

7 question whether or not this evidence would be available. I can't go into

8 further details due to the nature of this motion. And then let us try to

9 go through the list, the latest updated list of witnesses. And may I ask

10 the Defence, what about the long-expected 001?

11 MR. LUKIC: Your Honour, right now, we moved this gentleman to the

12 last week to try to persuade him to come voluntarily. And probably if he

13 is not willing, we will withdraw this witness from the list. So he is

14 scheduled for the week of 17th March, and it will be for every and single

15 of our witnesses, if those witnesses are not brought in the week in which

16 they are scheduled, we will withdraw those witnesses from the list.

17 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: And in order to avoid any further delay, I take

18 it that the Defence will never request a subpoena to one of their

19 witnesses?

20 MR. LUKIC: That's our decision right now, Your Honour.

21 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Thank you.

22 Then 006 will follow next week. 025.

23 MR. LUKIC: This witness was envisaged by the Defence to be a 92

24 bis witness, but as the Trial Chamber orders this witness should be heard

25 live, and I think that our investigator is trying to make a contact with

Page 12801

1 the -- this gentleman. But I think -- I don't think that we are going to

2 have his agreement to testify live in front of this Tribunal. That's how

3 the thing stands right now.

4 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Thank you. 034.

5 MR. LUKIC: Your Honour, no, this gentleman is not available. He

6 is somewhere in the U.S., and I should know tonight if we have the

7 replacement for this witness or not. The deadline for it is the 3rd of

8 March, as you know, Your Honour.

9 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Just want to alert you that whenever you would

10 search a replacement or an amendment of your witness list, the deadline in

11 fact expires on Monday.

12 MR. LUKIC: Yes, we are aware of that, Your Honour. Thank you.

13 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Then 041.

14 MR. LUKIC: Also, as you are aware, Your Honour, one of the

15 troublesome witnesses for whom previously we asked subpoena. But probably

16 if we don't persuade this gentleman to come by his own will, we'll

17 probably withdraw this witness. Actually, we will withdraw him, not

18 probably.

19 One more explanation, I'm sorry.

20 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Yes, please.

21 MR. LUKIC: The Witnesses 001 and 041 should be covered by the

22 testimony of one of the Chamber's witnesses, so that's why we can withdraw

23 those witnesses. Otherwise, we will have to ask for subpoenas.

24 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: How shall I understand this? Because in case

25 you want the Chamber to subpoena a witness, please do so today because

Page 12802

1 otherwise, the time expires, and we are running out of time.

2 MR. LUKIC: Yes, Your Honour. That's why -- maybe I didn't

3 explain it correctly. We were not sure whether the Chamber's witnesses

4 will be here or not because we didn't have confirmation. Now, when we

5 have confirmation that both of them are coming, one of the witnesses, the

6 first one, was the member of both the body of which number 001 was the

7 member and the body of which 041 was the member. So we will have those

8 areas covered by the Chamber's witness. So we are not asking for

9 subpoena.

10 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Let's hope that the two Chamber witnesses really

11 arrive. We'll see by Monday, no earlier.

12 043.

13 MR. LUKIC: This gentleman should be here next week.

14 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: As you mentioned beforehand?

15 MR. LUKIC: Yes, Your Honour.

16 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: In all likelihood on Friday?

17 MR. LUKIC: Most probably, yes.

18 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Then 055.

19 MR. LUKIC: It's already in our motion for the next week that it's

20 most probably that we will not be able to find this gentleman. But even

21 his brother won't give us any data, any lead how to find him.

22 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: When can we expect your final decision?

23 MR. LUKIC: Monday, Your Honour. We'll know for sure.

24 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: May I ask, in case this witness does not appear

25 as Defence witness, would this be a maybe witness for the rebuttal?

Page 12803

1 MR. KOUMJIAN: Actually, that was which witness? I'm sorry, Your

2 Honour. I didn't quite follow.

3 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: 055.

4 MR. KOUMJIAN: No, we don't envision him for rebuttal. We have no

5 statement, no idea what the witness will say.

6 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Thank you for this clarification.

7 037. This is a witness apparently who has been already twice in

8 The Hague. We have prepared ourselves twice for hearing this witness.

9 MR. LUKIC: 037, Your Honour?

10 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: On the 65 ter list, 058.

11 MR. LUKIC: 058. I just spoke with my learned friend from the

12 opposite. I contacted this witness when I was in Prijedor, and I really

13 got the impression that he is still sick. That's what he is claiming.

14 And he said -- at that time he told me that according to the Dutch doctor,

15 he has to take medicines another ten days. So we'll be in touch with him

16 and try to bring him to this Tribunal. And he's on the list for the last

17 week because of this.

18 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Understandable.

19 083. We know there's a problem with the permission. But in all

20 honesty, I can't understand what is the problem? Did you ask already for

21 the permission? We are discussing the question of the permission to

22 testify already six months.

23 MR. LUKIC: Yes. And the gentleman is telling us all the time

24 that he asked for the permission and hasn't got one yet. And this is the

25 witness whom we will try to replace and the due date is Monday as well.

Page 12804

1 So on Monday, we will know whether we are going to withdraw the witness or

2 try to have the replacement.

3 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Because it would be that we speak in all

4 openness about this, it would be extremely difficult to subpoena a person

5 not obtaining the necessary permission --

6 MR. LUKIC: Absolutely, we are not going to subpoena this witness,

7 Your Honour.

8 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: 089.

9 MR. LUKIC: This gentleman is envisaged, according to the

10 Defence -- one second. For the week starting 10th of March.

11 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Thank you.

12 MR. LUKIC: That week, we will have our expert historian, this

13 witness, and probably two more but maybe only two of these witnesses.

14 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Then the experts, it's quite clear. I take it

15 that there will be no change the things explained to us this moment that

16 the historian --

17 MR. LUKIC: Is on the week of the 10th of March --

18 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: To be more concrete even, the 12th of March. And

19 then to be followed by the military expert the 19th and maybe the 20th of

20 March.

21 MR. LUKIC: Yes, Your Honour.

22 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: We have concluded the list of videolink

23 witnesses. Then we would come to 92 bis witnesses. I hope that all the

24 parties have received the apparently unchanged statement of this witness

25 but now certified.

Page 12805

1 Any objections related to the admission into evidence of this

2 testimony?

3 MR. KOUMJIAN: No, Your Honour.

4 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Then the testimony of Witness 084 is now

5 admitted into evidence under Rule 084 -- under Rule 92 bis, of course.

6 Under Rule 92 bis.

7 Then we just during the break received a transcript, a

8 transcript. This would be related to which witness?

9 MR. LUKIC: 074, Your Honour.

10 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: 074.

11 MR. LUKIC: This gentleman was envisaged to be 92 bis witness from

12 the beginning.

13 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Absolutely. Already comments from the side of

14 the Prosecution.

15 MR. LUKIC: I have to admit that I just gave the statement to the

16 Prosecution as well because I had to have the right paginations. Although

17 I had it in my computer from Omarska case, it wasn't correctly paginated.

18 So I received the transcript this morning.

19 MR. KOUMJIAN: We haven't had a chance to read it yet. From the

20 description, I don't anticipate an objection.

21 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Fair enough. Let's come back to this question

22 on Monday.

23 Then one 92 bis statement should be taken on Monday in Belgrade.

24 This would be --

25 MR. LUKIC: It's the wife of Dr. Stakic.

Page 12806

1 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Also here, the rules are applicable in case you

2 would seek any additional 92 bis statements or transcripts to be admitted

3 into evidence, the deadline would be Monday.

4 Chamber witnesses we discussed already. There's one remaining

5 person; you know the name. I don't want to go into private session for

6 this purpose. But please be advised that there will be on this question

7 an additional 65 ter (i) conference Monday, 10th March from 10.00 to

8 12.00.

9 From that what I have before me, this would conclude the list of

10 witnesses. Is this correct, or do you have any other on your list? Maybe

11 there's by mistake.

12 MR. LUKIC: No. You correctly read all of them, only we are still

13 trying to find the replacement for 013, who is the first on the stricken

14 list, withdrawn. But we contacted three more persons from the Red Cross,

15 but none of them were in Trnopolje. So no use for us.

16 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: So this would be all --

17 MR. LUKIC: Monday also --

18 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: -- on Monday.

19 MR. LUKIC: Yes, Your Honour.

20 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Any other from the list of withdrawn or stricken

21 witnesses?

22 MR. LUKIC: No, Your Honour.

23 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: So it would mean a maximum of ten witnesses, but

24 in all likelihood a minor number.

25 MR. LUKIC: But probably less.

Page 12807

1 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: From your point of view, best-case thinking, ten

2 witnesses.

3 May I ask, in order not to have any kind of surprise, whether or

4 not the Prosecution wants during rebuttal which would be a late period in

5 time call the expert witness or Witness Patrick Treanor, the expert named

6 in the pre-trial brief as the expert on Crisis Staff? I think it would be

7 only fair in case this witness should be heard in rebuttal to announce

8 this in due time.

9 MR. KOUMJIAN: I do not anticipate that we would call Mr. Treanor

10 in rebuttal.

11 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Thank you.

12 MR. KOUMJIAN: If Your Honour, wants, I could give a brief

13 explanation. But Mr. Treanor could talk about -- I think matters Your

14 Honour already has -- what was written in statutes or orders. But our

15 case is largely de facto what the Crisis Staff actually did, so that is

16 why we are not calling any experts on constitutional law, law of Bosnia,

17 et cetera.

18 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: When we are discussing law, we appreciate that

19 we received the requested constitution. But as to the fact that in this

20 constitution reference is made to the constitution of the Socialist

21 Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina from 25 February 1974, we hereby order

22 under Rule 98 the Prosecution to produce this constitution in English and

23 in B/C/S.

24 I take it that it is available for you without any further

25 problem.

Page 12808

1 MR. KOUMJIAN: I'm sure it is.

2 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: What about the translations? I learned that the

3 translations had been provided to the Defence.

4 MR. LUKIC: Yes, Your Honour. And our case manager with the help

5 of two interns are photocopying them. So hopefully, everything will be

6 available on Monday.

7 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: The Prosecution has any problems with this

8 solution?

9 MR. KOUMJIAN: As soon as we can get -- the sooner we get them,

10 the better. Thank you.

11 MR. LUKIC: I don't know. Maybe they will be ready even tonight

12 or tomorrow morning. But we don't know how to deliver.

13 MR. KOUMJIAN: That's okay. I think Mr. Budimir will keep me busy

14 over the weekend. Thank you.

15 MR. LUKIC: One more thing, if I may, Your Honour.

16 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: I give you immediately the floor. But sometimes

17 I forget the one or other point, so please let me continue. What about

18 the Official Gazettes? Did the Prosecution find any other versions of the

19 Official Gazettes than the two tendered until now?

20 MR. KOUMJIAN: No. We have an actual report by Mr. Corin

21 explaining what the Prosecution has and the amendments. We do have

22 amendments to that statute which -- and actually the amendments may

23 explain a lot of the crossing out that's on the versions Your Honours

24 have. That report is ready, and we can have it Monday to the Defence and

25 to the Chamber. I'm not sure how it would be admitted, either as -- under

Page 12809

1 Rule 98, the Court's request, or we would provide it in rebuttal.

2 MR. LUKIC: We will not object to any Official Gazette.

3 MR. KOUMJIAN: It's not really -- what we have is Mr. Corin's

4 brief explanation is what we have, it's about six, seven pages. And we

5 have attached the amendments that he refers to. And also, he referred to

6 a 1996 statute which we attached for whatever relevance that would have.

7 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: So let's come back to this on Monday. And of

8 course, no doubt, it's a separate issue to admit into evidence the

9 Official Gazettes, the translations as such, and then this may be

10 affidavit in whatever form it will appear to decide how to introduce this.

11 MR. KOUMJIAN: May I just clarify one thing, and Mr. Lukic may

12 assist me on this. Your Honour asked for the 1974 constitution. I

13 believe there were some amendments before 1992. And I presume Your

14 Honours would like the amendments also.

15 MR. LUKIC: I think in 1980, there were amendments. So probably

16 we would need to have those as well.

17 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: When asking for the constitution of 25 February

18 1974, I thought it would go without saying, but also the amendments should

19 be produced under Rule 98.

20 Then -- yes, please.

21 MR. KOUMJIAN: Up through 1992, I presume.

22 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Right.

23 Then from yesterday, we had provisionally marked the document -- I

24 think it was S15-16. It was given to the witness. The witness marked

25 some parts of the documents with -- in Cyrillic. And this would be

Page 12810

1 S15-16-2. Any objections from the parties?

2 MS. SUTHERLAND: No, Your Honour.

3 MR. LUKIC: No, Your Honour.

4 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Admitted into evidence as S15-16-2.

5 Finally, one can find it already on the transcript, but I want to

6 repeat for the transcript, and I should like kindly to ask the registry,

7 Madam Registrar, to forward this part of the transcript to the head of the

8 United Nations Detention Unit, to provide us with the requested statement

9 on Dr. Stakic. So therefore, we would by this order kindly request

10 Mr. McFadden to provide us with this statement on Dr. Stakic as requested

11 by the Defence.

12 On my agenda, I have no additional points for the moment. What

13 about the parties?

14 MR. LUKIC: Only the last thing I wanted to raise, with the great

15 help of Victims and Witness Unit who really do their job always in a

16 timely manner, unlike us, we got the confirmation that the witness for

17 Friday will be able to travel on Thursday and will be here for Friday

18 testimony. Also, Ms. Isabel Skukan confirmed this.

19 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: We are extremely grateful for all the assistance

20 we receive from the Victim and Witnesses Unit. This should be no doubt

21 reflected on the transcript as well.

22 Prosecution, any further --

23 MR. KOUMJIAN: Nothing else, Your Honour.

24 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: -- requests. I hope I didn't forget too many

25 issues. We'll come back to this on Monday. The parties should only know

Page 12811

1 that for the next week, we are sitting in the morning from Monday through

2 Thursday, but in Courtroom I in any event Wednesday, Thursday.

3 Madam Registrar, may I ask, what is the final solution with

4 Tuesday? It changes in the moment daily.

5 So as to the fact that we don't have any other information, I have

6 to rely on the last updated courtroom calendar, and here we can read that

7 in fact it would sit in Courtroom I Wednesday and Thursday, and Friday,

8 due to the fact that there's court maintenance in Courtroom I, we would

9 sit in the afternoon of Friday in Courtroom II as of quarter past 2.00,

10 unfortunately once against, until 7.00. I don't know why Trial Chamber II

11 is always the victim of sitting Friday late in the evening.

12 So this is the plan as scheduled for next week. I have to thank

13 all those assisting us during this long week, especially the interpreters

14 but also the technicians working behind the scenes but without them we

15 couldn't continue and we could never hear the case. I wish a good weekend

16 to everybody. And this concludes today's hearing.

17 The trial stays adjourned until Monday morning, 9.00.

18 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned

19 at 6.45 p.m., to be reconvened on Monday,

20 the 3rd day of March, 2003,

21 at 9.00 a.m.

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